F4F | Michael Brown's Failed Attempt at "Brown Washing" ChristAlignment

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Welcome to another installment of Fighting for the Faith. My name is Chris Rosebro. I am your servant in Jesus Christ.

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This is the channel that compares what people are saying in the name of God to the Word of God. Now, if you did not get a chance to watch yesterday's edition, and I'm recording this on Thursday, so I guess it would be

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Wednesday's edition of The Line of Fire where Michael Brown talks about Christian tarot cards and interviewed

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Jenny Hodge of Christ Alignment. If you haven't had a chance to watch it, I'm gonna strongly recommend that you do and do so with the live chat relay, you know, replay on when you do it.

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But what we're gonna do today, by the way, go ahead and like the video, subscribe down below if you're not already a subscriber, ring the bell so you can be notified when we update the channel.

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What we're gonna do today is we're gonna do a little bit of a post -mortem. Yesterday's installment of The Line of Fire, or Wednesday's, because I think we're gonna be able to get this video out by Friday.

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Wednesday's installment of The Line of Fire did not go well for Michael Brown, like far, far from it.

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It actually was embarrassingly bad to kind of watch what happened.

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Jenny Hodge nuked her own credibility, and in the process, Michael Brown's credibility got burnt as well.

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And what we're gonna do is today we're going to deconstruct the technique that Michael Brown has been using.

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I'm a careful student of the people that I critique on Fighting for the Faith, and oftentimes will spend a lot of time either watching their sermons, reading their books, or both.

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In the case of Michael Brown, I've been a student of how he critiques critics for some time now.

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In fact, my studies kind of really took off when I got a copy of his book, Let No One Deceive You.

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This was from 1997, and this was kind of written in the context of the wake of criticism of the

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Brownville revival that was going on at the time, not only on the internet, but also from Hank Hanegraaff, the

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Bible Answer Man, and the Christian Research Institute. And this is where a careful study of this kind of informed me about the technique that Michael Brown uses to dismiss critics, rather than substantively engage them in their criticisms.

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And that's really what Michael Brown does. He labels people hypercritics.

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Anybody who has something negative to say about the charismatic movement, they are a hypercritic, or this is destructive criticism.

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And he has this jiu -jitsu move that he does where he's able to defend practically the most indefensible positions out there.

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And the jiu -jitsu move, there's a term that we use here in house at Fighting for the

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Faith and Pirate Christian Media, we call it brownwashing. Yeah, I know it's not exactly the most flattering name.

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Let's just say we do come up with some pretty spectacular coinage for names here at Fighting for the Faith. But what

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I'm going to do is I'm going to demonstrate how Michael Brown does this jiu -jitsu move in order to brownwash some of the most ridiculous things that are going on in the charismatic movement.

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And this is the reason why we have dubbed Michael Brown the Apostle of Obfuscation, because rather than substantively engaging critics, he lumps them all together, brands them all as hypercritics, and then makes them the problem rather than the things that they are bringing up.

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That's how he does it. So what we're going to do, let me get my screen up here, hang on a second here before I forget.

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What we're going to do, yeah this is a little later in the program, what we're going to do is we're going to do a little bit of historical work.

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I've already played a little bit of this audio from the May 15, 2017 episode of the

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Line of Fire in the video that we aired previous to this one about undocumented healings by Francis Chan.

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And we're going to revisit this, and I'm going to fill you in on kind of the bigger context. If this all sounds convoluted, what

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I got to do is show you how Dr. Brown brownwashes crazy stuff.

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And I mean like patently obviously heretical, wrong, bizarre, not even close to biblical

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Christianity kind of stuff. How he brownwashes it by these jujitsu moves that he engages in to make the critics the problem, which is what he does, and then give the person who is teaching the false doctrine or engaging in the blatantly wrong practice somewhat of a pass.

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That's what he was attempting to do with with Jenny Hodge in Christ Alignment.

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I can actually prove that basically following the pattern. But it didn't work for Michael Brown because Jenny Hodge is for real engaging in fortune -telling and trying to make it look like something related to the gift of the

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Spirit called the Word of Knowledge. And so we're going to walk through. We're going to walk through the technique.

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How does Dr. Brown brownwash? We're going to use a historical example. I'll show you how the pattern was all there for Christ Alignment, and everything was set up.

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Everything was perfectly set up. And all Jenny Hodge had to do was do a couple of things in what she said, and she would have gotten an okay from Dr.

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Brown. But she couldn't do that because that's not what she's doing. I'll kind of explain it along the way.

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It seems kind of weird, kind of cryptic, but that's okay. So let me take you back in time. Back in time, back in early

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May of 2017, so three years ago now,

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Jennifer LeClaire, she was the editor -in -chief of Charisma Magazine at the time.

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And as the editor -in -chief, she wrote an article early in, was it

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May or something? It may not have been May. It may have been a little bit prior to May. Yeah, just to say spring, late spring of 2017.

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And this is the article. And I gotta admit, it's tough for me to read this with a straight face because of just how nuts this article is.

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The name of the article is, When the Sneaky Squid Spirit Starts Stalking You. I mean, right on the face.

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I mean, this sounds like the person who wrote it is suffering from a paranoid delusions, you know.

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And by the way, I just want to let you know, just how do I used to put it?

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Just because you can't prove that they're not after you doesn't mean that they're not. I'm just saying. So anyway, so Jennifer LeClaire writes,

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When my friend told me she saw a vision of herself with a squid, big squid lodged atop her head,

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I knew enough about the unseen world to understand a spiritual attack was underway. What I didn't know was that a sneaky squid spirit would soon start stalking me.

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Okay, so of course, you know, when this comes out, I'm asking questions like, Is it a mortal or a venial sin to deny the existence of a sneaky squid spirit?

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I mean, there are no Christians in the writings of the Church Fathers all the way through the 20th century until we get early into the 21st century.

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No Christians ever believed, taught, or confessed that there's a such thing as a sneaky squid spirit.

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What is this? I mean, I just think it's delusional, right? And so, of course, everybody was talking about it.

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The internet was buzzing at the time and we hyper critics. Yeah, apparently I'm supposed to be a hyper critic.

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We hyper critics were like getting slammed, you know, for pointing this out.

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It's like, I'm not required to believe this. This is not a biblical teaching. It's not even based upon a principle in biblical teaching.

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And into the mix of all of that, Michael Brown had Jennifer LeClaire on his program.

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Now, I think it was either May 4th or 5th of 2017, and he had her on there.

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And I couldn't believe that he would do that. Because, I mean, Jennifer LeClaire represents the kind of craziest part of the lunatic fringe of the charismatic movement.

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And she is part of the NAR. Now, I know Michael Brown denies that it exists because he defines it in a very narrow sense.

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And so, I would say I quibble with him on his definition. And yes, it does exist. The NAR actually is a thing.

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And this is another one of the reasons why I say he's the apostle of obfuscation. But all that being said, you know, so Jennifer LeClaire's put the sneaky squid spirit thing out on the map.

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We've chimed in about it. It's on our podcast. Put it in the Museum of Idolatry. She comes on Michael Brown's program, and I phoned in.

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I actually called in. If you go and hunt down that particular installment of The Line of Fire, you can hear me calling in.

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And I basically said, why are you having this woman on there? Because she's teaching this brand new doctrine that there's a sneaky squid spirit out there trying to attack our minds.

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And Dr. Brown immediately started, like, parsing things out and saying, well, it's not really a doctrine.

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It's not a dogma, you know, or all this kind of stuff. And in the moment was defending her.

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And then what happened next is, the best way I can put it, I'll walk you through it, it is the quintessential example of the technique we call

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Brown -washing. And so what Michael Brown did, he waited 10 days, but he had

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Jennifer LeClaire back on his program. So on May 15th of 2017,

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Michael Brown had Jennifer LeClaire on his program, and the name of the program was

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Dr. Brown Reaches Out to the Critics. And you can get a flavor for what he taught in this episode.

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You can go back and find it for yourself. It's on the Line of Fire. It's not buried or anything like that.

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He doesn't do that. But he says, Dr. Brown points out the difference between constructive criticism and destructive criticism.

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So note, it's in this context, then, that Dr. Brown is going to talk about me.

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He's going to talk to Jennifer LeClaire. And apparently, I fall into the category of a destructive critic.

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Why? Well, because I'm calling out Jennifer LeClaire's sneaky squid spirit doctrine and saying, this is bovine scatology.

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This isn't a biblical doctrine. This is not something we're to be believing, teaching, and confessing.

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She's adding to the body of beliefs and doctrines that we're supposed to be believing as Christians and misleading people as a result of it.

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But apparently that makes me a destructive critic. And so what he's going to do, then, he has

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Jennifer LeClaire come on his program in the context of, I'm going to reach out and I'm going to confront those destructive critics, like that pastor from North Dakota who is misrepresenting

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Jennifer LeClaire and not putting the most positive light on her sneaky squid doctrine.

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And what Dr. Michael Brown is going to do in this segment, we'll listen to it in its entirety, is he's going to make a claim that there's a distinction between something that's contrary to Scripture as opposed to being extra biblical.

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And so his argument is that the sneaky squid spirit is going to be OK because it's not contrary to Scripture.

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It may be an addition, but it's not an addition that you have to believe, but it's not against the

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Scripture. That's kind of the idea. And all this, again, in the context of, we're going to put people in their place who are destructive critics.

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That's me. And that's the same technique that Michael Brown engaged in in his book,

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Let No One Deceive You. I mean, this book is really dedicated not to answering the substantive evidence and the false doctrines being taught within the charismatic movement that were brought up by critics of the movement at the time.

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No, this is a book that basically does this jujitsu move to make the critics the problem, and that's how he brownwashes.

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So let's go ahead and listen in. We're going to go back in time. Some of this is going to be a little redundant because of our previous installment of Fighting for the

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Faith regarding Francis Chan, but I want you to hear everything in context so that you can see how the technique works.

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So I've called in ten days earlier, said, why are you having this woman on here? She's teaching there's a sneaky squid spirit running around wanting to attack your brain.

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This is nonsense. And so now in the context of, we've got to put to rest this destructive criticism, let's see what he and Jennifer LeClaire do.

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I want to get to as many calls as I can, and then over the course of the rest of the show, this hour and the next hour,

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I want to lay out as best as I can what's constructive, what's destructive, give you some more details.

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Yeah, so pointing out that the sneaky squid spirit is a non -biblical doctrine. Destructive.

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Okay. Without further ado, got Jennifer LeClaire online. Hey Jennifer, welcome back to the line of fire.

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Hey Dr. Brown, how are you? Alright, so first order of business is find a way to make

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Jennifer LeClaire sound like she has a love for the Lord and prayer and things like this, and give her the opportunity to really make herself sound sane.

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You know, I'm just an ordinary loving Christian. I love the Lord, I love prayer, and so I don't understand why anybody would be critical of me.

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That's kind of part of the technique. Doing well. So little did I know that our short little interview about 10 days ago would spiral into me now being told if I don't disassociate you as a false teacher, which

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I understand means a hell -bound heretic and deceiver, that I myself am a hell -bound heretic and deceiver.

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Now here's the thing. I personally did not say that to Michael Brown. I don't know which critics of his were saying that, but that's not my position.

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My point was, it's like, why are you having this woman on here? She's teaching the sneaky squid spirit. This is nonsense.

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I mean, her credibility, she shouldn't be teaching nobody nothing. But, you know, so this, he kind of ramps the rhetoric up, and maybe he did receive, you know, people, you know, critics saying that that's what he needed to do.

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That's not, that was not my position. You disavow her, Brown, or you are, yeah, that's, that was never my position.

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You know, I called him with an honest question, like, why are you having this lady on here? Because she's neat. This is, this is goofy, right?

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That's not the first you've heard that, but it came with a bit of a swirl. I did send you a few of the links just, just to glance at, but Jennifer, first let me ask, let me ask this.

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What, what matters to you most? What do you live for? Yeah, what do you live for, man?

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Okay, so this is to basically just put everybody at ease. Oh, she loves the

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Lord. She couldn't possibly be wrong. The sneaky squid, yeah, I guess we can warm up to that.

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What moves you? I know you're, you're, you're a wife, you're a mother, you work at Charisma, etc., but the core of your being, what moves you, what motivates you?

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You know, intimacy with God. In 2010, the Lord told me to make prayer my life's work, and so although I write books, and I do...

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Okay, listen to what she said. Intimacy with God, and God told me. This woman is claiming direct revelation from God.

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Hello? What evidence can you provide me that God actually told her this?

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I mean, already on its face, we've got some big problems. TV and radio, and I'm the editor of Charisma.

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You know, my heartbeat is prayer, and that requires intimacy with God. It requires leaning on his breast, listening to his heart, and...

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Every time I hear that phrase, I just get creepy. You know, so I've never leaned on Jesus's breast to hear his heart.

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As a guy, that just sounds not heterosexual.

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That's the way I could put it. That's really the core of who I am, is just trying to walk with the Lord, walk in the

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Word. You know, I think that, you know, in a nutshell, I'm a Word person, I'm also a Spirit person,

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I strive for that balance between being grounded and rooted in the Word, and also being open to what the Holy Spirit is saying and wants to do.

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Being open to what the Holy Spirit is saying and wants to do. Okay.

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Tell me the difference between sensing the Lord is speaking to you versus the written Word. Well, you know, the written

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Word is infallible. Our hearing, our spiritual hearing, is not infallible. Now, I've got to challenge this.

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This is a major tenet of today's Charismatics, and notice she said, our spiritual hearing is not infallible.

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That is putting the emphasis on the wrong syllable. When God speaks, he will be heard.

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It is nonsense to believe that God will speak to you and you will not hear him properly.

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Even Balaam, you know, of Balaam's donkey fame, guy had no training in hearing the voice of God, and he had no problemo hearing

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God's voice, because if God is speaking to you, he will be heard. So this is one of the absurd doctrines of the

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Charismatic movement, that somehow we can hear inaccurately. No way.

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No way. That's to say that God is speaking in a way that he cannot be heard. One is capable of being deceived, but we can always rely, lean on, depend on the

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Holy Spirit -inspired Word of God. It's profitable for correction, for instruction, for rebuke, and so, you know, primarily, the

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Word of God is what must ultimately guide us, but at the same time, there is revelation from the

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Holy Spirit. The Bible says he will lead us and guide us into all truth. Yeah, that text does not mean that we're gonna get direct revelation from God.

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You've ripped that sentence out of context. That's not what it's referring to. He'll put words in our mouth when we need them.

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You know, it says he'll comfort us. He'll put words in our mouth when we need them, when we're on trial and being persecuted.

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So, you know, the Bible also, Jesus said that man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God, and the tense there indicates that God is still speaking, and so we cannot...

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No, it's not, actually. Let me show you the text in question. This is Matthew chapter 4. In Matthew chapter 4,

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Jesus is being tempted by the devil in the wilderness. So it says in 4 .1,

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Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil. After fasting 40 days and 40 nights, he was hungry, and the tempter came and said to him, if you are the

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Son of God, command these stones to become loaves of bread. But he answered, it is written.

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So the devil is tempting him, and what does Jesus come back with? An actual quote from the book of Deuteronomy.

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Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that comes, or you can say is proceeding from the mouth of God, and this was written in the book of Deuteronomy, and what's

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Jesus quoting? The Scripture. It is written. This is not a text that says, oh, you're gonna hear the voice of God in your heart.

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What Jennifer LeClaire just did there is twist the Word of God, and I've got to point this out.

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She did this in the hearing of Michael Brown, who is not an incompetent

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Bible scholar, yet I've never seen him offer a substantive biblical critique of people like this in the moment when they are twisting

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God's Word. Jennifer LeClaire just twisted Matthew 4 in his presence, in his hearing, and he did nothing to censor her or say, yeah, you know what, actually that's not what

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Jesus meant. Nope, not at all. So let's come back then to our interview as we listen to, this is the technique of how

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Brown brownwashes the crazy things going on in the charismatic movement.

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Just say, well, you know, if it's not in the Bible, if that experience is not in the

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Bible, we have to negate it. There are people that have had experiences like Bill Johnson, you know, where there's things with angels that we don't understand.

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There's things like Ezekiel experience with the wheel within a wheel. The Ezekiel experience, the wheel within a wheel, is in the

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Scriptures. It's written in the Bible, and it was his experience. It was a legitimate one, but nowhere are we led to believe that we would have the same kind of experience.

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You know, all these, you know, living creatures in the book of Revelation. Yeah, there are living creatures in the book of Revelation.

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They also appear in Isaiah the prophet as well, but despite the fact that they show up in various texts within the

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Old and the New Testament, does not then justify the sneaky squid spirit or any nonsense like this.

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So notice what she's trying to do. Oh, what I'm doing is not contrary to Scripture, it's kind of in the same vein as these other things, but in reading about those other things, there's nothing there to lead us to believe that we're supposed to build doctrines that are outside of the

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Scripture, based upon our experiences, that are not, quote, contrary to Scripture.

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And that's what she's doing, and I'm gonna say this right now. This is what Dr. Michael Brown really thought and expected that Jenny Hodge was gonna do yesterday, and I know this is coming out on Friday, so on Wednesday's episode of The Line of Fire, and he even talked, he even said these words in that interview with her, and I'll point it out, but again, long program here as we're deconstructing how

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Michael Brown does this. This is the technique known as brownwashing. There's abstract things, but again,

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I'm one that's been more historically and presently a stickler for it being in the Word. I'm not on the fringes,

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I'm wary of things, you know. Really, believing in a sneaky squid spirit, writing about it, writing about how to overcome and defeat marine demons, that's not on the fringe, that's in the mainstream of the charismatic movement?

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Really? Too many angel feathers, too much gold dust, gemstones, all that really sort of causes me pause.

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I don't speak against it, because, you know, I can't say that it's not God, but I've always been more conservative in that realm.

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And how do you feel about lack of accountability among certain prophetic people in the charismatic movement?

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Now, this is a part that's redundant from our previous episode of Fighting for the Faith, but let's listen in, because what he's trying to do is give her some street cred, so that she doesn't sound like she's like super crazy, because the sneaky squid spirit doctrine is bonkers nuts crazy.

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It just is. And so he's basically, let her speak, and we'll learn her heart, and people say, well, she sounds sane, so maybe this crazy doctrine is okay, you know, because it's not contrary to Scripture.

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Concern you? It does concern me. We call them Lone Rangers or Renegades, where they sort of spout off.

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We see a lot of prophetic opinion, a lot of subjective experiences that aren't even within the bounds of reality of Scripture.

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In other words, you mean like sneaky squid spirits? Yeah, they're not like even in the bounds of reality of the

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Scripture. Some things that we don't maybe find in Scripture, the Bible says that if we recorded all the works that Jesus did, there would not be enough books in the world to, you know, there would not be enough room in the world for all the books they would offer, you know, but there are some things that just defy

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Scripture. It's not that you can't find it in Scripture, that you can't find the principle in Scripture, you can't find any indication.

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So the sneaky squid spirit principle is taught in Scripture, so it's not defying Scripture, it's not contrary to Scripture, it's just, you know, it's built on the basic principle of taught in Scripture.

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It just defies Scripture. It just defies it, yeah. Some of that in prophetic ministry, where people are giving angels very, very strange names.

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I've spoken out against some of these things. People are selling prophetic words. All this is very... And I got to point out,

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Jennifer LeClaire charges money for prophetic activations. She engages in the sin of simony.

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This is just a documented fact. I've been very vocal about it. Yeah, so there's one thing to say this is extra -biblical.

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In other words, we don't find this specifically. Okay, this is the technique now. It's one thing to say something's extra -biblical.

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So, no, Brown is the one guiding this now, setting the principle up.

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How does one brownwash something as crazy and insanely unbiblical as the sneaky squid?

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It's real simple. You come up with this category. Well, it's not against the Scriptures, it's just kind of, you know, something that's different than the

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Scriptures. Yeah, let me back this up just a little bit. Unfortunately, I don't have a real good way to fine -tune my backing up, so I don't want to back it up too far, but just a smudge.

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There, we'll try that and see how we do. Here we go. ...a stickler for it being in the Word. I'm not on the fringes, I'm wary of things, you know, with too many angel feathers, too much gold dust, gemstones, all that really sort of causes me pause.

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I don't speak against it, because, you know, I can't say that it's not God, but I've always been more conservative in that realm.

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And how do you feel about lack of accountability among certain prophetic people in the charismatic movement?

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Does that concern you? It does concern me. We call them Lone Rangers, or renegades, where they sort of spout...

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Man, I really missed it here. We see a lot of prophetic opinion, a lot of subjective experiences that aren't even within the bounds of reality of Scripture.

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In other words, there's some things that we don't maybe find in Scripture. The Bible says that if we recorded all the works that Jesus did, there would not be enough books in the world to, you know, there would not be enough room in the world for all the books they would offer, you know.

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But there are some things that just defy Scripture. It's not that you can't find it in Scripture, that you can't find the principle in Scripture, you can't find any indication of it, it just defies

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Scripture. And we're seeing some of that in prophetic ministry, where people are giving angels very, very strange names.

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I've spoken out against some of these things. People are selling prophetic words. All this is very troublesome to me, and I've been very vocal about it.

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Yeah, so there's one thing to say this is extra -biblical. In other words, we don't find this specifically in the

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Bible. You could argue that the use of musical instruments is not explicitly found in the

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New Testament, but you find it in most of our churches. It's not un -biblical, but it would be un -biblical to say that Satan is

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Lord. Okay, so note what he's doing here. He is comparing the fact that musical instruments are not mentioned in the

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New Testament, but they are, by the way, mentioned in the Old. I just want to point that out. In fact, many instruments are mentioned in the

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Old Testament. But the fact that musical instruments are not mentioned in the

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New Testament, therefore belief in the sneaky squid spirit is like using your

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Christian freedom to use a musical instrument during worship time. That's flat -out obfuscation.

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Indeed, it is. But that's what he's trying to do. The belief in the sneaky squid spirit, it's not contrary to Scripture, in the same way that musical instruments are not contrary to Scripture or opposed to it.

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And so he's making a one -to -one correlation between musical instruments and the sneaky squid spirit.

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That's what he's doing. This is how you brownwash. Let's keep going. We understand those differences.

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And Jennifer, within Charisma itself, let's say someone writes in and they say they have this amazing healing testimony, and it's the most incredible thing.

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Do you require documentation before you print that? It depends.

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If they're saying they raised the dead, yes, we will get a doctor's report. If there's a, you know,

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Randy Clark has a great project where he's gone around and documented those kind of healings. We do ask for documentation.

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Now someone says, I was in a prayer line, laid hands on somebody, and they had a headache, and the headache went away, or ears opened up.

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If they're not naming names and they're sort of giving testimony or anecdotes based on, you know, to teach a principle, as long as they're not naming names, no, we don't ask for that level of indication.

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But if they're saying cancer was healed, you know, a dead person was raised, those kind of things, absolutely, we get verification.

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Yeah, I remember something happening a few years ago, and that's why that came to my attention, that Chris said, no, we need medical documentation before we print that.

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All right, last question, this whole thing about, quote, a sneaky squid spirit. Now notice, the technique is already in place, all right, and this is in the context of a program dedicated to addressing destructive criticism.

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So Jennifer LeClaire is a victim of destructive hyper -criticism, and the sneaky squid spirit doctrine, because that's what it is, a doctrine is just a teaching.

31:04

I mean, that's what doctrine means, you know, the sneaky squid spirit doctrine is just, it's not contrary to Scripture, and you can believe it the same way you can believe that it's okay to use instruments during worship.

31:20

All of this, the whole table has been set, and so this is now the jujitsu move to show that Jennifer LeClaire, she's reasonable, and the people who are criticizing her for teaching that there's a sneaky squid spirit, they are the ones who are unreasonable.

31:38

Always and again, Michael Brown's technique is to demonstrate that the critics are the problem, not the person they're criticizing.

31:48

The pastor called in and said, you had a guest on, she believes in a sneaky squid spirit, and I thought, that was me.

31:54

Sneaky, I mean the devil's sneaky, that's not an issue there. But he's already defending it. No idea how a demon's gonna be manifest or seen.

32:02

It sounded very weird to me, you know, honestly, I'd never heard of the thing, but it seemed very weird to me, but I thought, you know, if the

32:08

Bible depicts Satan as a seven -headed dragon, and you've got... So, and it's true, the

32:13

Bible does depict Satan in very picturesque ways as a seven -headed dragon, that's for sure.

32:21

Does the fact that the Bible presents the devil as a seven -headed dragon then give us the freedom to believe in a tentacle demon that engages in mind control and is sneaky?

32:34

You know, no. ...with four different faces, you know, lion, ox, eagle, man.

32:40

You see, so he's trying to make sneaky squid spirit, it's just like believing in the lion, ox, eagle, man creature in the throne room of God.

32:48

No, it's not, because both the ten -headed dragon and the eagle, ox, lion, man creature thingy, those are in the

32:56

Bible. The sneaky squid spirit isn't. I don't know, could it, could there, it could be symbolic of tentacles or something?

33:03

Could it be, could it be, could it be? This is not how you do biblical teaching or biblical doctrine.

33:09

So since, since you wrote about it, just take a minute to explain what you understand, and was this something symbolic or not?

33:16

Yeah, I see, you know, in a sense of it being symbolic. It's a symbolic thing.

33:21

It's not a literal squiddy thingy, it's a symbolic squiddy thingy. For example, we have the

33:27

Jezebel spirit. Now, we don't, I don't think there is a thing called Jezebel. I think it's essentially spirit of seduction, because in Revelation 2 and 20,

33:35

Jesus speaks of this woman. Jezebel is mentioned in the Scripture, in both the Old and the New Testament.

33:41

...calls herself a prophet who teaches and seduces. And so, you know,

33:47

I believe it's the spirit of seduction. We use the name Jezebel because we, you know, we like to have a common vernacular to explain things, to talk about things.

33:56

You know, it's the same way the devil's a dragon, it's symbolic of the Lord. He's not a rock, he's not a fortress, in the general sense, the word in the realist, you know,

34:03

Jesus is not a lamb. Again, all of these things are found in the

34:09

Bible. Sneaky squids are not. And so, this is what Michael Brown's doing. So, this basically makes it so, yeah,

34:18

I don't see, there's no problem here with the sneaky squid spirit. So, Jennifer, you're just the victim of really hyper -criticism, of destructive criticism.

34:29

It is not a dove, but we sort of use symbols, you know, we see that in Scripture. So, you know, sometimes in the deliverance ministry, in the spiritual warfare ministry, we describe things by their function.

34:42

And so, when someone is... So, this is all based upon her deliverance and in her healing ministry, which is where you cast demons out of Christians.

34:51

And so, the theology is coming from her being a practitioner of a practice that is not biblical.

34:59

A squeezing pressure on their head, and it's affecting their nervous system, you know, it could be different.

35:07

We call it a different thing. I know people who are not charismatic won't understand this, but, you know, things like a python spirit, we get that from the woman with the spirit of divination and the book of Acts.

35:16

Yeah, the spirit, the python spirit, it basically means it has something to do with the Oracle of Delphi.

35:23

Now, they're gonna go to commercial. I'm gonna back this off just a little bit during the commercial so that we can get back to it, because they don't actually play the commercial.

35:29

That word, divination, is from the Greek word pythos. Stay right there, we'll be right back and we'll get to your calls.

35:37

All right, so they're coming out of the break, and let's see where they go from here.

35:43

It's The Line of Fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown, your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution.

35:49

Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. Thanks for joining us on The Line of Fire. We're talking about the difference between destructive criticism and constructive criticism.

35:58

It's destructive criticism, to attack the sneaky squid spirit doctrine. If you are critical of me or my ministry, the work that I do, or differ with me on any level, full minds are open, 866 -34 -TRUTH.

36:10

So, speaking with Jennifer LeClaire, writer of Charisma, she mentioned Acts 16 .16.

36:17

We see in our English translations that this slave girl had a spirit of divination, and yet, in Greek, the word divination comes from the

36:27

Greek word python. Thayer's lexicon points out in Greek mythology the name of the Pythian spirit or dragon.

36:34

Yeah, this has to do with the Oracle of Delphi. ...in the region of Pytho, at the foot of Parnassus in Phocis, and was said to have guarded the

36:41

Oracle of Delphi, had been slain by Apollo. So, this python spirit then became the name for a spirit of divination, and Jennifer is just mentioning that in the same way.

36:53

Some people who are engaging in spiritual warfare, Ephesians 6 .12, we don't wrestle with flesh and blood, but with principalities and powers of darkness, these satanic entities, these demonic spirits, that sometimes they'll be given names and referred to in certain ways.

37:10

So, hang on, just have a slight malfunction on my screen here.

37:15

You see, so, believing in a sneaky squid spirit's the same as believing in the spirit of Puthona.

37:22

No, it's not. The spirit of Puthona is mentioned in Scripture, and we know historically what that's referring to.

37:28

Where is Jennifer LeClaire getting the idea of a sneaky squid spirit? From her experiences as a practitioner of a non -biblical practice called deliverance, where you cast demons out of Christians.

37:45

John, if you could just put Jennifer back on with us, that would be great. So, you were explaining, then, that sometimes terminology may be used that this was not an actual snake, python, but it was just a description of this spirit of divination, and sometimes in spiritual warfare, you or others have done similar things.

38:03

Was that the point you were making? It is. We have to have some kind of common language to begin to discuss these things, so that's the bottom line with that.

38:14

Right. So, I sent you a transcript that was sent to me by a friend that raised charges against you and said that you've given false prophecies.

38:28

She has. She has given prophecies, said that something was going to happen, and it didn't happen. The things, etc.

38:35

So has Michael Brown, by the way, more than one. Has he ever contacted you and raised concerns to you?

38:43

No, I've never even heard of them before. Okay, now here's the other issue, okay? So, watch what he just did there.

38:49

Did this person who said that you are guilty of being, of giving false prophecies, did he contact you privately?

38:57

Now, I'm gonna point this out. This is a misuse of Matthew 18, and I'm gonna point something out that I think hopefully should be obvious, and so Michael Brown here is invoking

39:10

Matthew 18, basically saying, did this person contact you privately to let you know that he thinks you're guilty of giving false prophecies?

39:20

Oh, no. He didn't contact me privately. And so there you go. Well, that proves it.

39:26

Well, here's the thing, is that in Matthew 18, 15, listen to what the text says.

39:35

If your brother sins against you, this is private sins, you go and tell him his fault between you and him alone.

39:44

If he listens to you, you've gained your brother. When somebody gives a public prophecy and it doesn't come true, then you can publicly state that that person gave a false prophecy.

39:57

Matthew 18 does not require people to go privately to false teachers and false prophets who are publicly teaching false doctrine and giving false prophecies and things like that.

40:09

No, not at all. This is like if somebody actually sinned against you personally, you go to them privately and say, you sinned against me, you need to repent.

40:16

When somebody publicly preaches false doctrine, then you rebuke them publicly.

40:24

You call it out publicly. So this is a misuse of Matthew 18. I'm at no time, especially in the last couple of years, has

40:36

Michael Brown ever had a private conversation with me to talk to me about my sin of being a hypercritic.

40:45

Nope, never once privately reached out to me. And you want to know something?

40:50

I don't expect him to, and he doesn't need to. He calls me a hypercritic with regularity, and he falsely accuses me of things

41:00

I'm not guilty of. This is most certainly true. But I don't expect him to reach out to me privately to confront me, and nor do

41:08

I think that if he thought that I said something wrong or that I spoke something falsely, that he would have to come to me privately first before he called it out publicly.

41:18

That's not a requirement of Scripture. But you're gonna note here, Michael Brown is invoking Matthew 18 15 and saying to Jennifer, so this person who says you're a false prophet, did that guy contact you privately?

41:29

Uh -huh. And of course I'm gonna point out, I've never once had a private conversation with Michael Brown.

41:35

Not once! So I would note that he's being hypocritical, and using his definition, he's dealing with different weights and measures.

41:45

Yeah, which Michael Brown has publicly said you're not supposed to do that. So here he's misusing

41:50

Matthew 18, but I point out never once has Michael Brown talked to me privately to tell me

41:56

I'm a hypercritic. Nope, never once. Not once at all. So just pointing that out. But we continue then with this, oh my goodness, this guy says you're a false prophet, but he never reached out to you privately, did he?

42:07

Was not surprised, you know, because I saw what his spiritual background was and understood that he doesn't believe in prophecy, so if you don't believe in prophecy to begin with, certainly any prophecy that's uttered out of anyone's mouth would be considered false.

42:21

Right, right, exactly. And it would be now adding revelation. Do you think it's best, obviously some people are not accessible, and I might write an open letter to Miley Cyrus, like I did a couple weeks ago, of course it's redemptive, and every word

42:36

I'm writing, I'm writing to be read publicly, but if I had access to her, I'd reach out to her. If there was someone that, if I had a way to get to someone,

42:44

I'd reach out to them, and then if I can't reach out to them, their door is closed, then I'll address what I have to if it's a public issue.

42:50

But do you think it's best if people do reach out directly so you can have interaction? Does that seem the more constructive way?

42:57

It does. Now, their motives matter. Again, pointing out, never once has

43:02

Michael Brown emailed me, reached out to me privately, or contacted those people who know how to get a hold of me privately to have a private conversation with me.

43:12

Just pointing it out. Just bent on attacking. There's no real use in dialoguing much.

43:19

If they want to have a true dialogue where they're seeking to understand and really concerned, you know, for my well -being, that's a whole different story.

43:27

I find some of these guys that do sorts of things like this where they trash you on the radio and all these sorts of things publicly without ever speaking.

43:35

They're actually violating scripture. No, they're not. If you publicly give a false prophecy, you get a public rebuke.

43:42

If you publicly teach false doctrine, you get a public rebuke. Matthew 18 does not apply.

43:48

Matthew 18, the principles therein. So, you know, it concerns me for them. It doesn't bother me.

43:54

I, like you, have learned to take these things and rejoice in them because it's persecution. I answer to the

43:59

Lord and I have accountability all around and about me, so... She's being persecuted for the sneaky squid doctrine.

44:05

Who knew? You know, it's unfortunate, but we deal with it. Got it. Hey, I appreciate you taking...

44:12

So, that's how the technique works, all right? So, first part of the technique.

44:17

This is all gonna be discussed under hypercriticism, destructive criticism. In fact, in Let No One Deceive You, I mean, he's got a whole chapter kind of dedicated to how can you tell when somebody has a critical spirit?

44:31

I mean, what are the signs of a critical spirit? According to Michael Brown, a destructive critic is often self appointed rather than God appointed.

44:39

Oh yeah, those self -appointed critics. I would note that scripture commands us to rebuke those who teach false doctrine and to silence them.

44:47

That's actually in Titus. So, no Christian who's rightly pointing out false doctrine is self -appointed.

44:53

Just saying. Scripture appoints us all to do this task. Number two, a destructive critic frequently speaks out of limited or no personal experience in the matters of which he makes pronouncements.

45:06

I see, uh -huh. You know, funny enough, I used to be in the charismatic movement. I was in the latter rain movement.

45:12

Number three, destructive critic is often an expert in tearing down but a novice in building up. Yeah, these are all just, you know, again, this is, his technique is to attack the critic rather than substantially address the topic at hand, the criticisms that are brought up, and address them honestly.

45:32

That you can get. Instead, you make the critic the problem, and then you create these weird categories.

45:39

Well, the sneaky squid spirit isn't contrary to Scripture. It's just kind of, you know, it's an addition to it, you know, kind of like, you know, the way musical instruments.

45:51

So, you know, it's not against the Bible. It's just kind of extraordinary, you know, which is a false thing.

45:57

And so, you know, that's how he brownwashed Jennifer LeClaire and the sneaky squid spirit.

46:03

That's how he brownwashed a lot of the guys that were being called out in the in the late 90s by valid apologists who were pointing out the excesses of the charismatic movement.

46:16

And then when John MacArthur published his Strange Fire book, Michael Brown used this exact same technique.

46:24

You attack the critic. You don't substantively address the content of their criticism.

46:32

And pull out, you pull out your Bible, sharpen your pencil, look at the evidence.

46:37

No, you attack the critic. They are destructive. They are hyper. They are, you know, and all this kind of stuff.

46:43

Now, granted, I'll say this, is that within discernment, discernment's a big word, within the discernment camp, there are some people that engage in rhetoric that I find to be less than helpful and less than honest.

46:57

And some of the conclusions they come to are well beyond what the evidence states.

47:02

And I have no problems calling out bad discernment. In fact, if you look back in the archives of the

47:09

Fighting for the Faith YouTube channel, you will find an entire conversation about bad discernment.

47:15

There is bad discernment out there. I've been an outspoken critic of bad discernment for almost a decade, you know.

47:24

And so this, I've got a proven track record of actually saying, hey, this is sloppy discernment.

47:30

You got to clean up your act. So, but what Michael Brown does, he throws everybody into the same bin, puts hyper and destructive on it, and makes no proper distinctions.

47:38

And that's because, again, brownwashing is about making the critic the problem rather than the false doctrine, false teaching, and false practices that are the problem.

47:48

That's how he works. Okay, so let's kind of fast forward a little bit. And I am gonna make the claim that what

47:55

Michael Brown was setting up for his interview with Jenny Hodge was his brownwashing tactic.

48:01

All the signs are there. Everything's there to show that that's what he was doing. So let's go back, and I want to show you what he was thinking, because it's very clear, because he's been very open about what his sources were, which helps you be able to kind of put together, you know, how he was going to approach this.

48:19

And you can see it, it's all there. But so going back to February 7th, 2020, where he is answering this

48:26

Facebook question about Christ alignment, I want to show you his source, because he was open about what his source was on this.

48:34

And you can clearly see where his mental space is, and what he was intending and hoping to be able to do with the line of fire for Wednesday.

48:44

Going back to the phones in one moment, there's a Facebook question asking, you know, I hear all this about angel boards and tarot cards and Christians, how do these things go together?

48:54

Okay, first, the only reason we're hearing a lot about it is because practices of like one group, in one place, got a ton of attention.

49:03

All right, I've never run into this. Okay, and again, I'll just point out, it's not as limited as you think, and the connections back with Bethel are a little more substantive than he's letting on, or he's aware of, is the best way

49:18

I could put it. Self and all of my travels, but from what I understand, is not tarot cards, rather it was scripture cards, or cards that would get the attention of people that are into all this

49:33

New Age stuff, but with scripture truths, and with ways to say, or maybe about moods and things like that, and say, hey, you want to sit down, we want to pray for you, or would you like a reading?

49:44

Okay, now where did he get this idea? Michael Brown was very open, and quite honest, where the source of this came from, and so Michael Brown got this from Bethel Church, Bethel Church, right in California, from their

50:02

January 5th, 2018 statement regarding Christ alignment. I'm not gonna read the whole thing, but what we'll do is we'll put a link to it down below in the description so that you can read it, and when you read this, you can say, okay, that's where he got this from, and so you can really understand.

50:20

The best way I can put it is that he believed what he read from this statement, and he put the best construction on it, didn't think for a second that what he was being told by Bethel was untrue, and he sided with Bethel on this, rather than with the hyper -destructive critics, because everybody knows they're the problem, right?

50:43

And so when you read this statement, in fact, let me make this a little bit bigger so it's a little easier on my older eyes to read.

50:49

There has been some recent concern about the ministry of Christ alignment and their supposed use of Christian tarot cards in ministering to people at New Age festivals, while the leaders of this ministry,

51:00

Ken and Jenny Hodge, are connected with several members of our community, including being the parents of our much -beloved brother evangelist

51:07

Ben Fitzgerald. So there are direct connections there, and I would say there are deeper connections than this.

51:15

And the Church Watch Central has a recent article, we'll put a link to it down below,

51:22

Church Watch Central has an article that shows that there's deeper connections than even what

51:28

Michael Brown is aware of as it relates to Bethel, but we'll let you do the homework afterwards.

51:35

So Christ alignment is not formally affiliated with Bethel, we do, however, have a value for what they are seeking to accomplish.

51:42

And so it goes through all of this, and then what they do is they publish an email that was sent to Bethel by Jenny and Ken Hodge, and here's what it says,

51:54

Thank you so much for giving us the opportunity to reply to the recent misunderstanding about our ministry and tarot cards.

52:01

My name is Jenny, the one who several websites have attacked and named us with Bethel.

52:07

The reason they said that is because we are the proud parents of Ben Fitzgerald, who's a part of the Bethel family.

52:13

Our ministry, Christ Alignment, is a large undercover prophetic evangelism deliverance ministry based in Australia.

52:19

Our aim is to get people saved, healed, and set free. Over the last six years, we have developed a very successful tested method for ministering to thousands of new -age people.

52:29

The team see approximately 7 ,000 people per year going into all of Australia, new -age festivals, expos, and events, and the cards we use are our own and are not tarot nor remotely similar to tarot.

52:42

We know tarot cards are very dangerous and highly discouraged. The tools we made help us lead people into deep encounters at our tables, and our aim at Christ Alignment is to attract tarot -reading clients, people who are fully into new -age practices, psychics and witches.

53:00

All of these people can immediately recognize that our cards are not tarot once they sit down at our table.

53:07

Cards sets include cards we made named psalm cards with scripture on them, address the gifting in a person's life, the color

53:17

God is showing, the person in a prayer encounter will speak to the person through the prophetic image on the front or meaning on the back.

53:26

It's the same as when we give someone a prophetic painting, just much smaller.

53:32

They are all non -predictive, but we call them destiny cards as we believe that giftings and callings given by God for people are certainly part of their destiny.

53:43

So you get the idea, and like I said, there's a link to this down below. You can read it in its entirety. So here's how this went down.

53:50

Now, I chided Michael Brown for investigating with what I call the Michael Brown investigative goggles, which you can't see through.

53:58

The reality is this, Michael Brown did not do any firsthand scholarship or research on Christ's alignment, and he just assumed that that Jen Hodge was a victim of, you know, poopyhead, hyper -destructive critics, and that they were misrepresented.

54:20

Why? Because he read this document on the Bethel Church website and just said, well, this is a done deal.

54:31

We can chalk this up to, again, misrepresentation on the part of the hyper -critics, and that's where he was in his mental space.

54:40

And since this isn't a big phenomenon, you know, running rampant throughout all of the charismatic movement, it's, you know, kind of limited in its impact, he didn't think this was high priority, and that's what he said, you know, himself.

54:56

All right, so you know where he's at. So Michael Brown always is gonna make the critic the issue, and that's how he brownwashes these things, and this is where he got the idea these were scripture cards.

55:07

He didn't personally look at any videos. He did not do any research himself. Had he done that,

55:13

I think he might have, he would have come to a different conclusion, and he wouldn't have had the train wreck that he had on Wednesday's program.

55:20

Let's just kind of put it that way. So all of that being said, let me go ahead and shut this down here.

55:26

We know where Michael Brown was heading, and I want to show you something in kind of how he was setting everything up.

55:34

So I have to actually go to his channel and look at his videos himself, so you can kind of see a chronology here.

55:41

So Dr. Brown answers your tough questions. That was the one where he answers the question regarding Christ in alignment, and gives the

55:53

Bethel main line on it from that document. So then one, two, well one, two, three, four episodes later, confronting hypercritics.

56:09

See, this is the setup. So this is how he does it. Okay, so we're gonna make the hypercritics the issue.

56:16

Why? Because he's laying the groundwork then, and in the Confronting the Hypercritics episode of his program, he openly talked about that he was inviting

56:26

Christ alignment on there. So he's laid the groundwork. This is an open -and -shut case in his mind.

56:32

This is just another clear example of some poor, innocent, continuationist, charismatic being experiencing misrepresentation and lies and slander by the hyper destructive critics.

56:48

So he has a whole program dedicated to that topic. And then he, you know, in double anticipation, he's double tripling down, am

56:58

I part of NAR? Because there are people in the discernment world who say he's part of NAR.

57:05

And it depends on how you're defining the term. And I would note that C.

57:11

Peter Wagner himself, you know, the way he defined the New Apostolic Reformation, made it clear that anybody who believes in modern -day apostles or in the ongoing five -fold ministry is, in his way of thinking, part of the

57:27

NAR. So if you go with C. Peter Wagner's definition, then yeah, actually Michael Brown is part of the

57:33

NAR. But the NAR isn't a thing that has a central hub to it.

57:42

It doesn't have a headquarters. It doesn't have a doctrinal statement. In fact, I would argue that there's only one thing, there's only one doctrine that is common to everybody in the

57:55

NAR. And that is the belief in either modern -day apostles today, modern -day apostles and prophets, as well as the ongoing five -fold ministry, which would include apostles and prophets.

58:06

That's the only doctrine, and I mean it, the only one that is universally held by everybody in the

58:12

NAR. Otherwise, the NAR is a junk drawer. And it's kind of hard to nail it down because it's nebulous, there's no consistent doctrine in it, and so if you were to define it in super strict narrow ways and say everybody in the

58:29

NAR believes these things, you would soon not have a definition that's workable. So instead, you can talk about traits that are common, you can talk about doctrines that are commonly held, but they're not universally held.

58:42

The only one that is, and I mean this, the only doctrine that is universally held in the NAR is the belief in either modern -day apostles and prophets or the ongoing five -fold ministry, period.

58:53

Okay, now Dr. Michael Brown will say, well, I believe in little a apostles, not big a apostles, and I would note that people that are more, let's just say, more invested in modern -day apostles and prophets, that they will say, well, we believe in small a apostles, but their small a apostles behave like big a apostles, and that's the issue.

59:16

And so anyway, but I digress. So he basically says he's not part of the NAR, and so, and again,

59:22

I'm gonna say it's gonna depend on how you define the New Apostolic Reformation, because this thing is super hard to define.

59:30

It's, there's nothing, there's like no universally held beliefs except for the one, except for the one. So all of that being said, he's taken on the hyper critics, man, he's taken on the destructive critics, that's the groundwork, he's bashed them out of the way, and smushed them, and crushed them, and he's dancing on their graves, and he's not gonna soak them either, man, and so now, all of that being said, what comes next in the process is his interview with Jenny Hodge, and the whole setup, this is set up the exact same way he set up his interview with Jennifer LeClaire and the

01:00:10

Sneaky Squid Spirit. The goal is to show that Jenny Hodge is a victim of the hyper critics, and all he has to do is invite her on his program, and what he's looking for is to be able to say, well, your practices are not against Scripture, they may not be found in Scripture, but they're not against it.

01:00:36

That's what he's looking for, and he believes that he's going to get there because of the document that he read from Bethel, where they said they have

01:00:46

Scripture on their cards and things like that, and the thing is is that he hasn't done any primary research, and that's the problem.

01:00:55

So his technique of attacking the critics, rather than actually doing his homework, and engaging the content of the criticism, because here's the thing, when you look at criticism, it's gonna be across the spectrum, and even my criticism, it's gonna fall in different parts of the spectrum, and so the idea is

01:01:16

I always tell people, listen, don't take my word for it. It's like, go put up your Bible and prove me wrong, and if you can prove me wrong,

01:01:23

I actually want to see it, okay? And so the idea is that when we look at the spectrum of discernment, the spectrum of criticism out there, some people are gonna be hyperbolic and engage in really toxic rhetoric, other people are gonna be more careful and measured.

01:01:39

Myself, I try to mix humor in with what I do, which really turns some people off,

01:01:45

I totally get that, but at the same time, one of the things I'm committed to is making sure all my

01:01:51

I's are dotted, my T's are crossed, and my footnotes check. That's the goal, okay? Because I learned really early on in doing

01:01:58

Fighting for the Faith in the podcast that if I do not have all my footnotes done properly, and I don't have my

01:02:05

I's dotted and my T's crossed, then I'm just giving people the ammunition to shoot back at me with, okay?

01:02:14

And I don't like being shot back at, and I don't like it when people point out my homework was done poorly, okay?

01:02:20

I'd like to get an A on my homework is the best way I could put it. So all of that being said then, you know,

01:02:25

Michael Brown here, his trusty technique is the thing that's failing him.

01:02:32

He's going to try to brownwash Christ's alignment, and his assumptions have misled him and set him up for failure, because although some critics were hyperbolic, some were more measured, and some were pretty hard -hitting, the reality is this, regardless of whether that they were hyperbolic or measured or hard -hitting, if they did their homework regarding Christ's alignment, then they know for a fact, even before Jenny Hodge came on the line of fire, that these people are engaging in forbidden practices, and they're engaging in a form of fortune -telling that Scripture forbids, and this practice cannot be squared with Scripture.

01:03:14

It's actually contrary to Scripture. And so I knew that, and so yesterday, you know, again, we're recording this on Thursday.

01:03:25

It's coming out on Friday. Yesterday, I grabbed my fuzzy money slippers, and at two o 'clock

01:03:31

Central, man, turned on my YouTube to watch the line of fire, because I knew it was gonna be a train wreck.

01:03:37

And it was. It was a complete and utter train wreck. Why? Because Jenny Hodge wasn't a victim.

01:03:47

She was not misrepresented. The critics were not the problem. And that's how come it turned into the epic fail that it did, is because Michael Brown's insistence on labeling all critics of the charismatic movement as destructive and hyper, and not engaging the substance of what they're saying, is the problem.

01:04:11

At least with him. And so this is why I continue to call him the the doctor of obfuscation. So okay, so you got the setup.

01:04:18

So we got the confronting the hyper critics after, you know, he was called out regarding what he said regarding Christ's alignment.

01:04:24

Am I part of the NAR? Again, the hyper critics are the issue. Christian tarot cards, question mark?

01:04:30

And let's listen in then to the the setup for the program, because I think this is actually telling.

01:04:36

Listen to what he says. Christian tarot cards? Is there such a thing? Or is that just misinformation?

01:04:43

Okay, so there's your setup. Christian tarot cards, is there such a thing, or is it just misinformation? Michael Brown has bet all his chips on this being just another example of hyper critics, you know, falsely slandering, you know, loving, you know, spirit -filled charismatics.

01:05:02

That's what he's betting everything on. The problem was, it weren't that.

01:05:09

So let me let me fast forward now. Michael Brown is the director of the

01:05:14

Coalition of Conscience and president of the Fire School of Ministry. Get into the line of fire now by calling 866 -34 -TRUTH.

01:05:23

That's 866 -34 -TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. Well, we're gonna have a fascinating, eye -opening interview, and we're all gonna find out some things together about a ministry in Australia.

01:05:36

Are they effectively reaching New Agers? Are they effectively reaching witches and people into all types of weird hippie movements?

01:05:45

Or are they themselves mixing witchcraft with the gospel? We're gonna find out today.

01:05:52

Welcome to the line of fire. This is Michael Brown, and if you'd like to wait... Now you're gonna notice something here.

01:05:57

I have the top chat replay on, and there's a reason why.

01:06:03

And that is because I did not call in, but I did post my questions in the chat, live, while it was happening, and you can see it.

01:06:12

You can go back and you can look at exactly what I said during this installment of the line of fire.

01:06:19

All right? That's important. In fact, fact -check me on this. Go and look for when fighting for the faith showed up in the things

01:06:26

I said. Directly, if you have a question about this ministry, or if you're one who is published critically about this ministry, phone lines are open 866 -34 -TRUTH, 866 -348 -7884.

01:06:40

Before I get into some specifics... Now I'm gonna make something clear. The reason why

01:06:45

I didn't call in is actually multitudinous.

01:06:51

Number one, as a careful student of Michael Brown's technique of attacking the critics rather than dealing with the substance of their criticisms,

01:07:00

I knew that if I went on, that even if I were permitted to ask questions, and I believe he would have allowed me to ask at least one, he would have kept me on in order to try to turn this on me.

01:07:13

And so that's not a safe thing to do, because I'm not the issue.

01:07:20

Jenny Hodge is the issue. And so that's the reason why I didn't call in.

01:07:25

But I did sit on the live stream, and if you watch the chat replay, you can see that early on I was asking one question.

01:07:36

When Jenny Hodge was evading answering questions, I was pointing it out. And then by about the midway point,

01:07:43

I began repeatedly asking two questions. Now, I'm not gonna accuse

01:07:49

Michael Brown of outright ignoring me. The reality is that my questions were not asked, and he repeatedly invited me to come on to the program in order to ask my questions.

01:08:01

The reason I didn't is because of his brownwashing technique in trying to make the critic the issue.

01:08:10

And in this case, 100 % confident. The issue here is Jenny Hodge, not

01:08:15

Chris Roseborough. So I wasn't gonna give him that opportunity if he wanted to. And you know, my questions were there.

01:08:21

If he looked, he would have seen them. And it's his call. It's his show.

01:08:26

If he wants to ask my questions for me, he can. But I'm not gonna go into a scenario where his goal is to make the critic the problem.

01:08:35

And that's why I didn't call in. So let's keep going. Let me say that my purpose is not to defend or accuse.

01:08:42

My purpose is to find out truth, and then based on what we find out, what we understand, to give my impression.

01:08:51

Okay. Which, by the way, here's the thing. He doesn't have to look at my work and say, okay,

01:08:57

I agree with Chris or not. This exercise that he went through is the exercise he should have gone through.

01:09:04

Or he should have done the research himself. All right? So this is a valid form of research.

01:09:09

This is fact checking. And he's going into it with the assumption that this is yet another example of the destructive, hyper critics, you know, misrepresenting and maligning, you know, poor, hapless charismatics.

01:09:25

That's his assumption. He's made it clear in the rhetoric he's engaged in, in the techniques that he's doing, he's following the same pattern that he's been doing for 30 years.

01:09:35

So, you know, that's legit. But here's the thing. I don't have a problem with him doing this. I just knew what the conclusion was going to be.

01:09:42

I am not a prophet, nor am I the son of a prophet.

01:09:47

I just know my research and I know Jenny Hodge is as loony tunes as they get.

01:09:53

I mean, she makes Daffy Duck. Well, look like Ronald Reagan. That's the best way

01:09:58

I could put it. So let's keep going here. What happened was, was it last year?

01:10:05

Maybe a little bit before that. I don't recall exactly. Word got out about a group in Australia, accusations that they were using tarot cards,

01:10:15

Christian version of tarot cards, people even called witches that were involved with them.

01:10:21

And because the son of the couple heading up this ministry is a pastor at Bethel Church in Reading, somehow now

01:10:27

Bethel was associated with it. And initially I saw a very strong repudiation of it from one of the leaders at Bethel.

01:10:33

And then that was followed up by, no, here's what they actually do. And it's actually positive. It's not tarot cards.

01:10:39

So it was nothing that intersected with me. I was asked about it and it was just one of the things

01:10:44

I didn't know about. I didn't follow critical reports about it, etc. So notice, he makes it clear.

01:10:50

He got his information from Bethel. So, you know, the document that we linked to below that we read earlier, that's where he got the idea that these are scripture cards.

01:10:59

And so he just believed the Bethel line. The question came up again, and because I've seen it coming up more,

01:11:07

I just said, really, I've heard this. If it's tarot cards. And he heard it from Bethel.

01:11:12

That's where he heard it from. Anything remotely close to that, it's to be repudiated utterly, completely, absolutely rejected.

01:11:18

If it's just some creative way using scripture -based cards or things to reach people in these festivals and Jesus has preached through it, could be good.

01:11:25

That was, didn't know either way. We've been since contacted through the ministry,

01:11:31

Ken and Jenny Hodge, and want to communicate what they do. So I've invited critics to call and speak directly as well.

01:11:39

The phone lines are open. And I appreciate the invitation. And I respectfully declined because of the brownwashing technique where you make the critics the problem.

01:11:49

That's the issue. But we go to Australia. Jenny, welcome to the line of fire.

01:11:55

Now, I'm not going to play the whole interview. I would, in fact, I strongly recommend that you watch this installment of the line of fire.

01:12:02

It is an education is the best way I can put it. Jenny Hodge, I'll kind of walk through some of my notes here.

01:12:14

Dr. Brown asked her, what, you know, tell me what you, why you do what you do.

01:12:21

I mean, so he's setting it up. We have a heart for reaching the lost, those in the new age. And then he asked the question, what message do you bring to people to be saved?

01:12:30

And every time he asked her direct questions regarding what message do you bring? What is the gospel?

01:12:36

I mean, with like predictable clockwork, she evaded and deflected, evaded and deflected every one of those questions and never gave a substantive answer or a clear answer as to what the gospel is or how somebody is saved.

01:12:53

She openly talked about, you know, it was necessary for people to have encounters with God as part of their salvation experience.

01:13:00

And they said that she uses Christ. They use Christ so that people can have an encounter with Christ.

01:13:07

And if you watch it again with the chat relay replay open, you can see in real time where I'm actually responding to some of the things she say, point out that she's not asking, she's not answering the questions and she's evading and even point out, you know, ask the question, what on earth is an encounter with Christ?

01:13:25

Okay. So, you know, so, and then at the 12, almost a 13 minute,

01:13:32

Mark Brown says, we're getting to the facts. We're getting to the truth because, you know, again, he's, this is supposed to be an exercise where Michael Brown is going to show that Jenny Hodge was misrepresented by the hypercritics.

01:13:45

Okay. And so at the 1530, Mark Brown says, we're here to separate fact from fiction.

01:13:51

The thing is, is that when it came to everything we published regarding Christ's alignment, none of it was fiction.

01:13:58

Now I will note that Jenny Hodge played the victim card and basically tacitly accused me of sicking a posse of people on her who are sending her weekly, at least four times a week, threatening emails, which

01:14:13

I don't believe for a second, but I'm going to say this. I know a thing or two about receiving threatening emails. I know a thing or two about it.

01:14:19

In the 12 years, 12 plus years that I've been doing fighting for the faith, I've received maybe a handful of very threatening emails.

01:14:27

One of them, I actually took to the police and said, can you do anything about this answer? Nope. Couldn't do a thing about it.

01:14:33

What do you recommend I do? They said, get a gun. And that was a long time ago when

01:14:41

I lived in India, Indiana. So I haven't needed to use a gun or anything like that, but I would say

01:14:47

I would note this. I know a thing or two about receiving threats via email, but the thing is they're not that common.

01:14:53

In fact, they're quite uncommon. And if somebody were to actually send you a physical threat via Facebook, I mean, that'd be the dumbest thing that you could ever do.

01:15:05

Because not only would you get banned by Facebook, but you would then create the paper trail necessary to have yourself arrested.

01:15:15

And so there's some pieces to this where she's playing the victim card that, again, make no sense. And I have never encouraged anybody to harass or physically threaten or even verbally threaten, you know,

01:15:29

Jenny Hodge of Christ Alignment. That is contrary to how we are to treat each other in Christ or treat even pagans.

01:15:36

That's contrary to how you even treat a pagan. So you get the idea. So I wanted to say that.

01:15:42

Now, what I'm going to do is I'm going to fast forward. We're going to play a little bit of an extended segment here, because I want you to hear how

01:15:48

Dr. Brown is addressing kind of the bigger issue. So I'm going to fast forward. I'm going to drop the play head down at the, you know, basically about the 21 minute mark.

01:15:58

And we're going to listen to this extended segment where Dr. Brown asks

01:16:04

Jenny Hodge, why cards? Why cards? Because he's having issues with that. And let's see what he says.

01:16:12

It's called a destiny reading. You could call it a spiritual reading. But in the

01:16:18

Bible, destiny talks about the whole time, I believe. And you look at Daniel and even

01:16:26

Joseph, Joseph in Genesis 44. Now, I want to set this up for you properly.

01:16:33

No joke. You know, in the 21 minute segment of this interview, she justifies the practice of divination by saying,

01:16:43

Joseph said to his brothers, do you not know that a man like me can practice divination? And she's flat out twisting

01:16:51

Joseph's word. Joseph was not saying that he practices divination. It was all part of the front that he was putting on because his brothers didn't recognize him.

01:17:01

And he wanted them to continue to believe that he was an official of Egypt and not anybody else.

01:17:06

And so Joseph was not saying he practiced divination. So she's justifying her destiny card readings and basically saying, yeah, we're engaging in divination.

01:17:19

Why? Because, well, Joseph said, I can engage in divination. So there. So she's twisting up God's word.

01:17:25

And I'll say this, to Michael Brown's credit, Michael Brown, in the

01:17:30

Thursday episode of The Line of Fire, he straight out addressed that twisting of Scripture and was having none of it.

01:17:38

He openly corrected it and said, that's not what, you can't say that about Joseph.

01:17:44

And so he recognized that she was twisting the Scripture. He's replied to... Okay, I'm going to break this up.

01:17:50

Joseph, in Genesis 44 or 15, he's replied to his brothers, said, don't you know that a man like me can find out things by divination?

01:18:00

In other words, Joseph himself was aware that he had a seer gifting.

01:18:06

Now we're operating... No, Joseph never had a gifting in divination. This woman's theology is whack -a -doodle, and Michael Brown has completely distanced himself from her.

01:18:18

Only in word of knowledge. So word of knowledge is

01:18:24

God speaking through you, and the cards are only photographic images.

01:18:30

They have nothing on them. They don't have words on them. They're photographs.

01:18:36

My husband and I have taken over half of the photographs, and the person looks at that photograph, and they see things in that photograph.

01:18:46

It has no words on it. They don't look like tarot. We've had psychics and witches, when they finally sit down and start doing the cards, they say they're not tarot.

01:19:01

They know they're not tarot. Now notice, the people in Michael Brown's own audience are saying this is not

01:19:07

Christianity. They're saying something's really wrong with this. I understand that the tarot cards are specific and have certain demonic meaning and function, and perhaps even demonic power.

01:19:22

But what I still don't understand is why use...

01:19:28

Okay, I understand people are used to the cards, but people are used to getting drunk and sleeping around and doing drugs, so you don't...

01:19:34

Okay, so notice here at the bottom of the chat replay, Fighting for the

01:19:39

Faith. That's me. And so this was early on. I hadn't switched to two questions.

01:19:45

I was still asking... I was repeatedly asking one question. Question. Where in the Scripture does it say we can use the

01:19:52

Christ Spirit to give a reading to a non -believer through cards? That was my question.

01:19:59

Now, later I'll switch to two, but for the most part, with very little exception,

01:20:06

I was just taking those same questions and restating them and reposting them several times through to see if they would actually ask my questions.

01:20:15

Okay, now Michael Brown had no obligation to ask my questions, and I didn't call in for the reasons

01:20:20

I stated. So you can see here, there's a whole record of everything I said during Jenny Hodge's appearance.

01:20:30

So let's get high, and then we'll get you a word. So why even use the cards?

01:20:35

You pray with people, they share in need, maybe the Lord gives you an insight, and then you preach

01:20:40

Jesus to them if they're open. Yeah. Well, when you preach

01:20:46

Jesus to New Agers, they're not open, for a start. And an ex -New

01:20:51

Ager called in and said that's not true. And that is confirmed by other ministries around the world that have had to go undercover as well, or to not preach

01:21:02

Jesus as openly as an evangelist on the street. And we're very familiar, as you can imagine, with Bethel, and my son...

01:21:11

All right, so notice my question shows up again now at the bottom. It scrolled up, so I just posted it again. Where in the

01:21:17

Scripture does it say we can use the Christ Spirit to give a reading to a non -believer through cards? Evangelists on the street.

01:21:23

So there is quite a big difference in the two types of talking to people like this.

01:21:31

The cards are amazing. We see 6 ,500 people per year for 20 minutes each.

01:21:44

And if I could write a book, which we probably will, about the incredible, incredible accuracy of the words of knowledge with these cards, which just images.

01:21:58

Now, people in church use prophetic paintings, and some of that... Prophetic paintings?

01:22:05

What are those? Cards have prophetic paintings on them. And for me, personally, as an artist,

01:22:13

I cannot see what's wrong with a prophetic painting, just because it's on a card, and that card is lying on a table.

01:22:21

For me, as a Christian, if you say to me, your prophetic painting, which is now printed on a card, and that card is obvious on a table, it's quite ridiculous.

01:22:34

I see God work in not only prophetic paintings, in dance, in all other forms, and I just cannot see why a prophetic painting on a card is wrong.

01:22:46

People say, well, it's... All right. So here, let me jump in and articulate what a concern would be.

01:22:54

Okay. So this is him doing primary research. He could have done this on the internet, by the way, but it's okay.

01:23:02

An interview with Jenny Hodge, I mean, that's as primary as you get, you know. Because, look, what you have to understand,

01:23:09

Jenny, is you have some extreme critics, and sometimes... There we are. You have extreme critics, extreme.

01:23:16

Can say something I agree with many times, I feel the way they do things is wrong, or misleading, or even dishonest, and I've raised it.

01:23:23

For the most part, I pay no attention to it. I may see the latest headline or something, but otherwise, I don't follow,

01:23:28

I don't watch the videos, read the articles. Others, I don't even mention their name, because they're anonymous, you don't even know who's behind it, so it's like, forget it.

01:23:38

There's no integrity with that. But it doesn't mean that every concern that's raised is by a hypercritic.

01:23:44

In other words, there are people that know me on Charismatic Pentecostal, part of the Browns Revival, I pray for the sick, believe in speaking in tongues, and they're

01:23:53

Charismatic Pentecostal, but they're raising questions, and I want to get to some calls in a moment, but just take one minute.

01:24:02

What's the card there for? It's not saying that a picture can't have a message, or you can't look at a painting and say, wow, that's inspirational, but what are you actually doing with the card?

01:24:14

We're using Word of Knowledge. Okay, so we're using Word of Knowledge. Now, this is the closest she came to Brown being able to use his brownwashing technique with her.

01:24:29

But the problem is that she's been completely evasive in all the direct questions regarding the gospel, and the technique she's using is—it even has

01:24:39

Dr. Brown uncomfortable, noticeably, physically uncomfortable. And so is this a valid use of the

01:24:48

Word of Knowledge, to sit down and do a destiny card reading with people? And so this is the closest she came to successfully being able to have

01:24:59

Christ's alignment be brownwashed by Michael Brown. Okay, so that we understand. We have no problem with that.

01:25:06

But in other words, why the—and I'm not attacking. I'm trying, as I said at the beginning, my goal is not to defend or to accuse.

01:25:13

I don't have a dog in the fight either way. But tell you what, listen, we have— Actually, he does.

01:25:19

His dog in the fight is to discredit the critics. We have a few seconds before the break, so let me just step back and let's see.

01:25:30

David Cherry, Dave, you're next, coming on. And those who have been most vociferous critics, you have an opportunity to have a conversation.

01:25:41

So listen, I want to reach people however I can reach them, wherever I can reach them, as long as I am, number one, preaching the gospel of Jesus, the gospel of Scripture, and calling people to repentance and faith.

01:25:57

That's— So he's saying calling people to repentance and faith and actually preaching the gospel needs to be part of evangelism.

01:26:05

And he's right. And two, that nothing I'm doing is contrary to Scripture.

01:26:12

Not everything is in Scripture, as long as it's not contrary. Listen to what the category.

01:26:17

So this is the same language he used with Jennifer LeClair to brownwash the sneaky squid spirit and then claim that it's the hyper critics, it's the destructive critics that that t -boned poor

01:26:32

Jennifer LeClair. Listen again. The gospel of Jesus, the gospel of Scripture, and calling people to repentance and faith, that's one.

01:26:40

And two, that nothing I'm doing is contrary to Scripture. Not everything is going to be written in Scripture.

01:26:47

You know, being on the internet is not written in Scripture, right? But there's nothing against Scripture in terms of being on the internet.

01:26:53

So that's what we're trying to find out. Yep. So that's what he was trying to accomplish. That was the goal.

01:27:01

The goal was to find a way to make it so that, you know, he can say, all right, this isn't in Scripture, but it's not contrary to Scripture.

01:27:13

But the problem was, is that everything—and I mean everything—everything that Jenny Hodge was saying was contrary to Scripture.

01:27:22

So, you know, that's the technique. It's called brownwashing. And you don't substantively engage what the critics are saying.

01:27:31

You don't engage in any primary source, you know, thing for real. You find a way to come up with saying, okay, well, this is a charismatic thing.

01:27:39

It's not in Scripture, but it's not contrary to Scripture. So that makes it okay. And then the person is off the hook.

01:27:47

And the people who are on the line are those hyper critics and those destructive critics, and things like that.

01:27:53

And that's the technique. And here's the thing. Michael Brown has been very successful in using that technique in the past.

01:28:00

The reason why the Wednesday episode of The Line of Fire was the train wreck and the dumpster fire that it was, and it was, was because the critics were not the problem here.

01:28:12

Jenny Hodge was. I think you get the point. I've kind of, you know, said these things a few times, but now you know how he does it.

01:28:19

So in the future, when Michael Brown is going to take on the hyper critics and all this kind of stuff, it's because this is his shtick.

01:28:29

This is his MO. And this is an MO that goes all the way back to 1997.

01:28:36

And it has served him well until until Wednesday of this week when it blew up in his face.

01:28:46

And I knew it was going to happen. That's why I put the fuzzy bunny slippers on. And you can see the photograph of that on social media.

01:28:52

And it was, I've never seen anything like it. I mean, Jenny Hodge was her own worst enemy.

01:29:02

And she confirmed everything that the critics have been saying about her in Christ's alignment.

01:29:08

And you get the point. And so when you mix, when you take that with the other videos we've done with Christ's alignment, yeah, it's clear.

01:29:15

And so what has Michael Brown done? He's openly made it clear he's not comfortable with this.

01:29:21

He does not think these practices are valid. He questions the Christ that they're encountering in their

01:29:27

Christ encounters. And he's publicly come out very strongly against them, and he should.

01:29:33

And that's the result of his research, which is two years overdue, best way

01:29:41

I could put it. So hopefully you found this helpful. If so, all the information on how you can share the video is down below in the description.

01:29:48

And a reminder, we are supported by the people we serve, and that's you. And so if you don't already support us, all the information on how you can support us is down below by sending in a one -time contribution.

01:29:58

Becoming a crew member, if you become a crew member in the month of February 2020, and gunner's mate or above,

01:30:07

I will send you an autographed copy of my fine art photograph titled San Clemente Dreaming as my way of saying thank you for supporting the work we are doing.

01:30:16

So until next time, may God richly bless you in the grace and mercy won by Jesus Christ, his vicarious death on the cross for all of your sins.