Calvinism - Biblical or Propaganda?

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01:30

All right. Well, welcome to apologetics live Having some technical issues there with the music.

01:36

Don't know what what was with the introduction for the podcast I'll just have to edit that in But welcome to another

01:43

Thursday night. We are here again to answer your theological questions And as always we can answer any question you have about God and the

01:52

Bible because well I believe I don't know is a perfectly good answer So we want to get started tonight's topic is going to be

01:59

Calvinism. Is it biblical or propaganda? This is something that came up quite often this week in our apologetics

02:07

Christian apologetics Facebook group and what we Had several people that wanted to discuss it and there's at least one of them that showed up I always find that interesting by the way folks that we have people who will challenge people on different things they'll challenge people on Yes things like, you know in this case

02:28

Calvinism and then when you say well, hey, come on and defend yourself It's just amazing how few times anyone ever actually shows up We've had the black

02:38

Hebrew Israelites that over and over again Challenge us to debates and if you want the epic debate that I had it's on our

02:45

YouTube channel just search for black Hebrew Israelites or BHI and you'll see the the debate that I had with an empty chair because Well, three guys said they were gonna show up to debate me on black

02:56

Hebrew Israelites and Yeah, they didn't show So but that won't happen tonight thankfully

03:05

That way it's not just me talking. We are not gonna have Justin and Anthony here. They are out So it will be we got

03:13

John the clock commander. We don't have his chickens It's probably too cold for them. But you know, he will be popping in.

03:20

I'm sure and So I do want to give you guys some quick updates on some some things as I look for some of my notes the one thing that we have is

03:31

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The Israel trips filling up you want to make sure that you go to If you want to join us in Israel I think there's only like two two slots left and those two slots are probably gonna fill up pretty quickly

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Those will go once they're gone You there's still maybe some extra room to join us, but you'd have to meet us in Tel Aviv is the way that would work and so Here we go.

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That's what I'm looking for Had to get my other notes here. Sorry. So is if you go to Israel Trip or Israel tour 2021

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I'll put that up on the screen as soon as I could find where it is But Israel tour 2021 is where you could find us to join us in Israel Again, the price of this goes up $100 starting at the end of this month

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So we have about a week left before the price goes up. So I really want to encourage you to do that quickly

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We mentioned this last week is you can not only support us, but at the same time get a good night of sleep

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Now one person who probably needs a good night of sleep is this guy Chris Han holds who says he just wanted to pop in And say hi for a minute

06:02

He needs a good night of sleep. And what he needs is a my pillow and if Chris was to get a my pillow

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He could actually not only save money on the best pillow out there in my personal opinion But also be supporting striving for eternity and you can too all you have to do to save money on pills

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They have some great discounts In fact, one of the discounts they're running for us is that there were pillows that are regularly their premium

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Sfe so sfe if you go to their if you go to mypillow .com just click the radio listeners square and in there put promo code sfe and You will get a better sleep because they're outstanding pillows.

07:13

I've said this before to you guys last week. I travel with mine I love it. I don't uh,

07:18

I don't like going without my pillow. Uh, i'm getting old. I guess these things are uh, Oh, so we got uh, someone saying that they got my pillow coming.

07:27

Thank you very much So, uh, let me first bring in John mr.

07:33

Cluck commander lovely Cluck commander for folks who don't know um that uh, you you raise chickens now someone is saying actually

07:44

I should say Uh, wait, it was humble clay that said this I finally do know who humble clay is

07:50

He's revealed himself to me. Um But uh, he says michael adele Uh, the my pillow guy is is a christian someone

07:57

I guess earlier trying to find that comment said he's he's a devout catholic Uh, here it is. Um Says he's devout catholic.

08:04

Uh, he he was a catholic Uh, he now unfortunately, I don't know if I want to say he's christian.

08:11

He's more word of faith So i'll leave that to those who want to say if that's christian or not because some

08:17

You know, some don't understand word of faith. They're just in that Hey, that's a great book, you know, you are you are a slow reader you read that book every single week, you know, i'm wondering uh,

08:29

Since tonight's talk is about calvinism and how they're so cultic I just figured maybe it would be under this this book

08:38

What do they believe what do they believe, you know the calvinists and what what in the world are they you know, are they propaganda

08:48

I do have a guy who I used to be friends with. Uh, he's he actually told me i'm not saved anymore because uh,

08:57

I I Actually told me i'm not saved anymore because I preach on stage on this on a stage with calvinists

09:04

And so wow believing the doctrines of grace makes me unsaved Uh, he actually did write a book about how calvinism is

09:11

Uh a false teaching and and all um, I it was kind of funny because I reminded him that he's been on stage with paul washer um and paul washer pretty much so so if me being on stage

09:24

You know with other calvinists make me a calvinist. I said doesn't that I mean just simple logic, but no he didn't that way

09:32

Ha ha So john anything anything you got going on you want to update folks with before we bring seth in uh, you know,

09:40

I just heard on the uh This is just for a sidetrack here. But I just wanted to say that the there is uh,

09:47

I saw a news report on fox sports That nascar is going to begin having

09:56

Dogs that can sniff covid From you on you

10:02

So actually having so that they can have people in the in the audience, you know in the in the To to attend the events

10:10

Yeah, yeah So basically when you want to go and see nascar racing and all that and you go to this, uh, you know

10:16

But the track or whatever Uh, they're going to have dogs that can sniff out covid for you.

10:22

I mean so they can actually Uh detect covid so I thought they'd be a great episode a new tv series that's called um

10:34

Uh bd bdu uh biodetection unit Smoking canine

10:44

But anyway, I already made me at the jingle fort and everything so I have to do it.

10:50

Why am I not surprised? I know. All right. Uh, someone was asking in chat um

10:56

If if they could do any volunteer work for us at striving fraternity You could contact us at info at striving for attorney .org

11:03

if you're interested in doing that That's how to get a hold of us there so that So just reach out to us that way let us know what type of things

11:13

You're interested in doing and what you what you're capable of doing and we'll do that. So um

11:19

John i'll put you in the backstage. You just as usual. Let me know if you want to come in And i'm going to bring seth in seth.

11:25

Welcome to apologetics live You are you are someone who was in our christian apologetics group uh, and I you and I I guess gotten got uh involved you reached out to me because um, you know that you were having a discussion and someone muted you in the group and so, uh,

11:44

You had you had thought it was over calvinism um Because that was a discussion. I didn't read the thread as I told you.

11:52

Um, but uh, you know You're you're you're gonna be unmuted. I think by tomorrow so you could then respond

12:00

Um, but I said hey, why don't we talk about what you do disagree with? so Um, why don't you just real quick introduce yourself to our audience?

12:08

Let folks know how you came to know christ and I mean they were even with that we're talking off air And uh, yeah when you tell me you have my whole testimony

12:16

I kind of waste a lot of time I guess You know what the short version? Okay.

12:21

Um I mean, I guess I was raised in the church. I I left the church I guess in high school and college because I was convinced by my college professors of Evolution that's a different state.

12:32

I went through a while of of being pretty confused about whether god

12:38

Did exist or if he does exist if he's even a loving person at all if he actually cares about us about after I got out of college started doing some searching for myself and found a that there is a lot of Assumptions made in in evolution that are not proven.

12:56

So that brought me back to questioning things Um, I went I found a lot of philosophical

13:02

Arguments for the existence of god and it seemed that That that was evidence that got a creator at least a creator does exist at that point.

13:11

I started studying Reading the bible for myself reading the old testament new testament

13:16

I started looking at all religions because I really didn't know who the creator actually was I believed that it was a creator, but I didn't know who he was.

13:22

I was reading the quran I was reading the book of mormon I was reading basically anything that I could find

13:28

That might tell me who god was and the only thing that that actually made it made a like a discernible difference in my life that Actually touched my heart were the words of in the bible like all the other texts that I read there was nothing like that that A lot of it was laughable.

13:47

Honestly, if you're trying to look at it logically Um, like the book of mormon is a joke if you actually read it

13:52

Like I don't know how you'd read it and not laugh out loud But what is it's good science fiction, maybe

13:58

I mean not even that like Read it read it because i'm reading the quran and and the book mormon at the same time

14:04

The quran is actually it has very poetic language Honestly to me. It seems like it is inspired by demons because it actually has a lot of Almost truth to it.

14:14

The book of mormon is just a flat comedy it's nothing compared to it looks like somebody read the king james version of the bible one time and then tried to Recreate some type of fiction along those lines actually an interesting study that uh, the tanners have done if you know who gerald and sandra tanner are but with mormon research they've

14:34

They're kind of the pioneers Gerald tanner actually looked at all of the usage of the elizabethan english in the book of mormon

14:44

And found that the book the only time that the book of mormon the english matches like the rules for the

14:53

Elizabethan english with these and the nows was when it was quoting the king james bible It makes sense.

14:59

Like that's I I think that's all he did Joseph smith did is just he read the kingly bible and tried to make his own religion using that type of language

15:07

So let's so we want to talk about uh Specifically calvinism. We have some other things we could talk about afterwards about apologetics

15:14

You you you take more of an evidential approach. I would take more of a presuppositional approach And so we could talk about that as well um

15:22

And laura's here saying sandra tanner is great um Sandra tanner i'm going to just a side note before we get into calvinism

15:29

I'll tell us for laura's but sandra tanner is the the only person i've ever been starstruck with Which for many people that'd be like, well what because i've gotten to meet very well -known people

15:41

But sandra tanner was someone who early on when I was when I was a young christian and I was dealing with mormons

15:46

I was studying mormonism and and Learning about it and I studied so much about the tanners and so when

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I met her which was probably 20 years later um, I was actually starstruck meeting her so Probably the only time i've been starstruck

16:02

Um, but we want to talk about calvinism. What I want to do is seth. I want to give you a chance um,

16:08

I think I said and I can't remember if it was to you or to one of the other people that Said they wanted to show up and challenge me on this but aren't here.

16:16

So first off kudos to you um Because you you are more of a man of your word

16:21

Uh, I think there's a passage that says in the scriptures that's not about it You know the person who says yes and doesn't show

16:28

You know This is the first time i've ever done something like that. And to be honest, I have turned down several offers to come debate why

16:36

I just I don't think very well through word of mouth and through speech.

16:41

I think way better When i'm able to write my thoughts and edit them because sometimes when i'll say something

16:47

I don't mean exactly what I say I'd rather go back and edit that and say this is what I actually meant by that.

16:53

I just sometimes I speak Faster than I actually think you know And that this is actually making me very nervous because I don't do well and yeah, don't don't don't don't be nervous

17:04

I mean, that's why like I said to you. I don't I prefer discussions Right in discussions and one other thing

17:11

Yeah, one of the things I find though with when it comes to the topic of calvinism and specifically doctrines of graces

17:18

I'm going to because you know calvinism is kind of a loaded term uh for for a lot of folks

17:25

Uh, but whenever we talk about it, I usually find that people don't understand What calvinism actually teaches and so what

17:34

I want to do is I want to first give you an opportunity to see if For you to to define it and then work through What your definition is, you know,

17:43

I want to see first that we're we're using the same definition, right? That's that's definitely important. I agree and so, you know, my thought is let you you know

17:50

You define it see what issues you have with it where where they are and then then you know

17:56

If there's corrections if I think there's corrections even made i'll i'll say what my definition is sound good.

18:01

Yeah, that's perfect All right. Can I can I um, i'm assuming you're not uh, you wouldn't represent hypercalvinism

18:07

That's like a very minority view. You're more of the competitive Competitivist. Yeah, and so for folks that don't know hypercalvinism would be more in the camp of uh, there's two branches of hypercalvinism

18:18

Well, there's there's hypercalvinism high calvinism Hypercalvinism would be determinism Where god determines everything we have no say in anything god forces every decision we make

18:31

That would be hypercalvinism high calvinism Would be those that would say that you have to believe in calvinism to be saved

18:39

Okay, I would have a problem with that as well, right? I think there are good brothers and sisters on both sides of the camp that are saved

18:48

That believe and don't believe in in the issues of calvinism Okay uh

18:54

I I can say that one of the one of them are wrong No, yeah, that's absolutely true.

19:00

They can't both be true Right something has to be wrong. I 100 agree. Yes for the competitivist view it's basically that God has determined what your nature is.

19:13

So our nature is fallen because of adam's sin So we have no ability basically to have faith um, the only way we can have faith is if god regenerates us ahead of time if we are elected before the foundation of the world then

19:31

Eventually, we will be regenerated and we will have the ability to believe at that point of regeneration um for the the thing

19:40

I have a problem with compatibles is is that basically removes the um

19:47

What is the moral culpability of from people for their beliefs in faith? I believe like for if they don't if god never gave some people the ability to have faith

19:57

Then they can't be accused of not choosing to have faith because they never had the ability that would be like Accusing someone with no legs not being able to jump.

20:08

That's it's not right You can't you can't accuse somebody who has no ability to do something for not choosing to do something

20:14

It's not that they didn't choose they have no ability And that's the problem I have with the compatibilist view

20:20

Okay Let me just and you're going to see that i'll do this a lot is I want you to define terms that you use to So when you compatibilism, what you mean by that?

20:30

uh so um Basically, it's trying to make free will compatible with god's decrees.

20:39

It's uh, let's say god decrees all Basically who is who is going to be saved from the foundation of the world, but it's still trying to say that people

20:47

Uh still make their own choices. So they're still morally culpable for their choice But i'm saying that that's a logical contradiction because they can't be

20:55

That Is that correct? Yep, and so so I mean we

21:01

I i'm not going to agree that it's it's illogical i'm going to be able to very easily show that um

21:08

So so what would be the view in your and i'm just taking some notes here. So if you see me looking down I want to make sure

21:14

I don't Misrepresent i'm trying not to misrepresent. I definitely don't want to do this So what give me your position

21:22

Of what you would you believe on the subject I believe that People can believe whatever they want to believe

21:30

I believe that the only the only thing preventing people from being able to believe in god or in jesus

21:36

Is that they need to be told about god or jesus so you can't Believe it's something that you don't know about basically and that's what um

21:44

I know there's a verse. I don't think you're off the top of my head. So i'm Trying to think of it

21:55

Give me a second. I'll come back to I guess okay How can they believe if uh, someone has not preached to them something on those words maybe romans chapter, uh 10

22:07

That sounds about right So I mean one of one of the things you're going to see here a lot

22:17

We're going to we could I mean we could actually spend all our time in romans 9 and romans 10 And I read romans 9

22:22

And I would say that's biblical you'll read romans 10 and you'll say that's biblical Um, but I believe that the questions posed in romans 9 are answered in romans 10 and 11

22:31

Yeah, how can they call on him who have they not believe how can they believe in him who they've not heard?

22:37

So they need a preacher. They need to be able to hear that's that's just synergism to me like If you're preaching the gospel, that's that's two people creating something.

22:48

That's better. That's god working through you Working and working into them. So that's in my opinion.

22:55

That's synergism So so you're saying you would hold to a synergism not a monergism

23:01

I don't believe okay. I believe god is the only one that saves finding those folks in a moment, but I just I believe that god's gift is the only thing that saves but I believe people do have to participate

23:13

I think god requires us to participate in that in order in order to receive that gift I believe the gift is offered to every single person literally every single person

23:23

The only reason that people Don't necessarily hear about the gift is is our fault as servants because we didn't get the message of christ to those people

23:30

And I don't put any place fall on god saying that god didn't love these people So god didn't even give them the chance to believe because I think that's what that's the logical

23:40

I believe the logical conclusion of calvinism. That's why I think it's wrong and and dangerous because That would that would suggest that god doesn't love everyone

23:50

Or that or that I impossibly love Lost people more than god does and I don't believe that's possible either yeah, so, uh, and and some people are someone's asking, uh, they they what's your name that they there was a comment up here earlier from Chris hon holds that said, uh,

24:09

I appreciate not only his willingness to come on but also his respectful demeanor And someone was asking your name. His name is seth

24:15

Um, I don't know. I don't want to give your full name unless you choose. I don't have any problem with that Um, so so let me let me work through some things and see where you're at So do you you mentioned the sin nature?

24:27

Do you do you believe that we are born? uh Having the effect of the curse of sin

24:33

Yes, I do believe that we are born with the curse of sin. I I don't necessarily i'm i'm kind of conflicted on this because So I don't have a very firm decision.

24:43

I don't know if we are necessarily guilty of adam's sin, but I do know that adamson led to our sin nature to where we will sin eventually like there's

24:53

I believe we're still at fault because we make those choices. I don't believe that god forced us to sin, but I believe that That because of our nature because of our fallen nature from adam

25:04

We are tempted to sin and we will fall into temptation Okay, there is a verse I think god says he consigned all people to To sin,

25:13

I believe that's in romans 11. Let me look it up Bible over here, so i'm not looking off screen so much while you're doing that and uh

25:28

Partly because I don't want to go there. So while you're looking up For god has consigned all to disobedience that he may have mercy on all and that's romans what romans 32 romans 132 1132 1132.

25:46

Okay I forgot to shut up all In disobedience.

25:51

Okay, so so let me let me work through some of this. So When we say the the the fall right what happened in genesis chapter 3 with the curse

26:01

Do you believe that the the effect? of the curse of sin Did that affect?

26:09

The human being when it comes to his his uh thinking

26:19

Not necessarily um, I believe that we that god created his image in his image and we are rational preachers capable of Objective logic,

26:28

I believe I believe objective logic is very important in order to discern truth

26:33

I think that's what one of the gifts that god gave us is in order to discern truth is is is logic and reasoning

26:41

Okay, did did it affect the the emotions sure sure I definitely believe it affected emotions but Emotions can be overridden by logic and reason

26:54

Well, okay, so let's so logic and reason is not a product of the human mind so um you know, so it's it's

27:03

So there's aspects of the human being right? It's it's our It's it's what we might call the mind the emotions and the volition

27:11

So the the really what i'm trying to get at when people speak of sin nature uh the question becomes

27:20

Is generally people will that hold to a sin nature Except that the curse affected the the mind and the emotions and the debate is over whether it affected the will

27:34

Okay now romans As I was saying, okay, I'm tracking okay, so romans five and six,

27:42

I don't have time to read the whole chapters, but In romans five and six it talks about the fact that we're we're basically enslaved to sin, okay

27:53

Um slaves rebel against their masters all the time Uh, it doesn't doesn't being a slave doesn't mean you don't have free will

28:02

Well, I I guess and and this is where we'd have the first disagreement Uh because and and maybe defining terms when we say free will

28:11

Uh, I would argue that we don't have a free will we have a will there's a big difference between the two

28:18

We can make choices But those choices are bound by our sinful nature.

28:23

In other words, we're we are going to make choices based on our selfishness Why am I not going to steal something?

28:30

Because I don't want to suffer the consequence But we throughout history when you remove consequences for breaking a look just look in america.

28:39

We're We're removing consequences for For doing wrong and now, you know people for seven months eight months nine months now burning cities down because No one's going to stop them.

28:51

Okay. Yeah, I don't see how that that correlates to mean you You don't have a free will then like I don't see where the free will is always

28:58

Theologically free means that it's you're not being influenced by something like a sin nature. In other words, you can make perfectly moral choices

29:09

You know righteous choices, you know things, you know god would be free I would argue we're not free until the holy spirit indwells us and now

29:18

We could we can choose To do that which pleases god versus that's what pleases self, right?

29:26

That's that's what I was saying earlier That's what I agree. That's that's a competitivist view. I I don't agree.

29:32

That's true though. I I just I need to see the evidence That that's actually true I I agree that that's the competitivist view.

29:39

Mm -hmm so so the the issue we'd end up seeing is that uh scripture would end up seeing that we are

29:48

We're enslaved to sin And therefore I would say that our will if we're enslaved it's not free.

29:55

It's enslaved but slaves rebel against their masters all the time That's what I'm saying. Like it's that slave doesn't mean that you have no free will

30:02

Yeah, I know okay, so so Be specific. I'm not saying that you don't that you can't make choices.

30:08

I'm not saying you can't rebel You keep you're saying you're saying I can't have faith though I'm not either so this is why i'm trying to break this down in small to starting points because What i'm seeing you're doing or right off the bat you're jumping to conclusions

30:26

That i'm not even making Right what i'm talking about is the idea of freedom is our will bound by sin

30:35

That's that's the question now now scripture says that we're enslaved and you're saying but a slave can rebel that's not you know

30:43

That would actually I would argue that's a red herring because it's it's not the point The point is not can someone rebel?

30:51

The the the point is is the will actually free? To be able to make righteous choices or is it enslaved to sin and can only

31:01

Make sinful choices choices that are that that are pleasing to self I don't I don't believe that being enslaved to sin means you can only make simple choices

31:08

I I know atheists who can make good moral decisions. I don't do it all the time, but they

31:14

I mean they can do it sometimes so that proves that They can

31:19

No, it doesn't because it's it's missing the point again. Notice what we're saying So Again, i'm not saying that people can't make choices

31:28

But you said that they can't do anything good. No, it's like the sin so they can't anything righteous

31:34

Okay, so what define righteous sin? So so they can't do anything that is without Sin, they can't make they can't do you know, you can have someone who?

31:44

Sacrifices his life for another person right for for a child or something, right? That's evil that that seems good and it is good but yet what is actually

31:56

No, it's actually selfish. They're doing it for self reasons, right? The the issue is not good see it's good by what standard so you're saying good is a moral standard

32:08

Of human beings i'm i'm saying good by god's standard We are going to please self or please god right

32:17

Do you agree with that? uh I I don't

32:25

I don't know. It seems like a false dichotomy. I don't necessarily have an idea of why but i'm not Okay, i'm not sure if I have 100 % agree with it or not

32:33

So so the point i'm saying is that when the scripture says that we are enslaved to sin

32:40

I'm going to say that that includes our will So that our will is enslaved to sin, so it's not free

32:48

I I disagree with that. Yeah Um, do you believe that god saves people

32:58

I believe that we cannot be safe without god I don't know. I don't believe that he forces people to come to heaven because I think that's a shallow view of god to be honest, right um

33:10

Well, let me take a different a different tact with you because I see some coming up a lot that You're you're having issue with um, let me ask you who who wrote the book of romans well

33:23

No, who wrote the book of romans? It wasn't paul Think about it

33:32

Who wrote the book of romans? I mean, okay god Oh all right, so Who gets 100 % of the credit for the writing of the book of romans?

33:49

I mean god didn't physically write it. So I understand but who gets the credit? Both Okay So when we look at scripture, we call it god's word

34:01

Yeah, I agree. This is a doctrine in the area of inspiration. This is a doctrine we call

34:08

Superintending Okay, and this is very important in this discussion Superintending is that god works through a human author in such a way

34:18

That it is exactly as god intended it to be that's how come it could be without error without flaw

34:26

Every letter is as god intended it it's god breathed would be as second timothy would say or first timothy would say

34:34

All right, god breathed it And so what you you have is that god this is god's word and yet it has a human author

34:44

This is the doctrine of superintending and you you're you've come around this a bunch of times Right, so god can work through a human being

34:54

To write even though paul writes personal things. Hey bring my books bring my cloak.

34:59

It's going to be cold this winter Right. He'll say that to titus and timothy He he's going to have a different writing style than than joe very

35:09

I think I think the overall the overall message is what god intends

35:14

I think the writing style and the the way it's laid out is the work of the author's individuality

35:20

Yeah, and so what we see is that god works through them Even with their own personalities, right god can work through them to write what he intends to be written.

35:30

No, I agree. I agree uh, once we get saved the doctrine of sanctification

35:38

The doctrine of sanctification would be The this process and you may understand this but i'm just for the audience as well is the process after we get regenerated

35:48

Some might say is being saved From the moment we're regenerated until the moment we die and are glorified is this process of being made more in the image of christ more saint -like more holy

36:00

That is a ongoing process Called sanctification now in the process of sanctification

36:06

We do good works And yet in james It says that god does the good works so Do you when it comes to the good works we do as a christian?

36:18

Do you believe it's god who does it? Or do we do those good works? I mean,

36:29

I I think god works through us, but I think it's still ultimately our decision because I like I could be

36:37

Led to do something That is a good work, but I choose not to do it

36:42

I mean, I still have the decision factors. I think I don't think we lose any type of This I know

36:51

I guess I guess yeah decision factors is the word i'm probably going to go with okay Yeah, and and you know folks anyone here.

36:58

You've already heard seth say is he's he's nerd I don't want anyone holding you to like. Oh, no, you're not using good words or something um

37:05

So don't worry worry about that it's more just we understand the the the what we're trying to Communicate i'm trying to make sure

37:14

I understand you as well. So I don't misrepresent you and I see that you're trying to do the same so The the issue here is i'm going to argue when it comes to the doctrine of regeneration

37:25

This same doctrine of superintending Is in play that god works through a human author

37:32

In such a way where god gets all the credit And yet we experience that we chose god

37:39

Theologically god chose us The reason there seems to be so much debate over this is because people think that it's either or And it's not an either or it's not either or when it came to scripture

37:50

It's not either or when it comes to sanctification and therefore I don't think it's a stretch to say it's not either or when it comes to Regeneration god works through Human beings in such a way that They will choose what he intended for them to choose without forcing them

38:08

He you've already said but it's a regeneration force So why is it why is it you're you're this is the whole thing that you're struggling with The look at the same thing that you said with scripture you said paul has his own personality

38:26

Paul chose what words he was going to choose Yeah, and yet it says scripture says that that's what god intended to be written

38:33

That it's god breed that god breathed through the human authors Okay, peter would say that and he would say that it was it was not by man

38:42

But by god that they wrote scripture But okay, but you still So people still play a part in in the writing of scripture

38:51

Like yes, I believe god is the ultimate source because he wanted this written But people still have to like I think paul still had the choice to write these letters or not and thankfully he wrote he did make the right choice, but I think if if paul decided not to write these letters god would have used somebody else to To get his word written.

39:11

I I don't think that people are forced to do something that that god tells them to do

39:18

Well I I keep hearing the word force That's what I think In order to believe you have to be regenerated first, that's what the calvinists believe correct some

39:31

But but and we don't have a choice to be regenerated. So that has to be done by force to us

39:36

No, see and that's this is why i'm I want to focus in on this My guess I could be wrong

39:42

My guess you've probably read a lot of anti -calvinist literature without reading calvinist literature

39:49

I've read all the john calvin's institutes and i've read the westminster commission of faith That was probably five years ago though.

39:55

So i'm not like up to date on it, but There be some good books you can read on the subject of people who will be explaining specifically this area

40:06

John calvin's institutes even you know explain this stuff and that's where many people will will build off of it but It's it's not something that you

40:15

I mean you can look at augustine. Actually, that's where calvin got it from but um, and I would say augustine got it from scripture, but the the point is this

40:24

You're using words like forced and that is that's language that comes from those who?

40:30

disagree with calvinism and so if If you want to have because you had said before we went on air you you're just looking for truth you like for truth

40:39

Yeah, see I I didn't get this from other calvinists. I got for non -calvinist This is what I this seems like a logical conclusion

40:45

If I didn't choose to be regenerated then that then god regenerated me by force well, no

40:53

How is that? How does that not work? Then in let me let me take your same logic and now apply it to scripture.

41:00

Did god force paul to write or did Own or did god work through paul so that he could write right?

41:09

Yeah God god chose to use paul because he knew what paul would basically do

41:14

I that I believe in that type of foreknowledge, but I believe god still had the parking.

41:19

Sorry I believe paul still had the choice I believe if he decided not to follow god then god could have just used somebody else to write his letters

41:27

But Paul used his own words, right? Yeah, his own writing style his own words and yet that's exactly as god intended it to be

41:36

Yes Okay, because it's it's not it's not the wording specifically. It's the it's the

41:41

Actual intended message. It's the overall message It's actually down to the letter

41:47

I don't necessarily agree with that because I think paul will make arguments based on the tense of words

41:54

Right relations. He's gonna say That you know that it said unto seed and not seeds.

42:01

He's making a distinction based on the singularity of the word Yeah, I agree in that instance, but I don't but what couldn't you use somebody else to do that exact same thing?

42:09

Okay, so the point that i'm making is when we come to scripture You agree with what

42:15

I say when it comes to regeneration, but when it comes to regeneration you go it has to be forced It's either got to be a logical in both or it's got to be logical in both because they're the same scenario so If if you're going to say that god can work through human beings when it comes to writing a scripture

42:33

But when it comes to regeneration he has to force it Right Now you're you're taking this doctrine of superintending and not applying it properly

42:42

Well, but that okay in my view you have a choice in both issues and you have choice in both ways

42:49

Like paul had a choice to write his his letters and paul had a choice to be saved and accept what was happening to him yeah, so but the issue is

43:00

You you focus a lot on on paul's choice. Okay. I'm focusing a lot on what god's doing

43:06

Okay And so what i'm trying to help you see is that we're we're going to view this from god's perspective

43:13

And say did did god force paul to write romans?

43:19

I 100 % disagree I don't think he did because because I believe that god Good. No, but I don't believe that regeneration precedes faith either because I believe that faith comes first and because you chose to have faith

43:31

Then you will be regenerated and so it's not forced because it's consensual He he went he went through faith first So you believe that you you would say that belief would come first.

43:43

Yes, and you could believe on you. I think it has to yeah um Could do me a favor open to philippians one

43:51

And just while you're looking there philippians for folks is a book Paul's writing to suffering christians people that are suffering and he's going to make an argument about suffering telling him

44:02

About suffering but he makes an argument in verse, uh 29 That is going to be specific to what we are talking about Do you mind reading that philippians?

44:11

For it's been granted to you on behalf of christ not only to believe in him, but also to suffer for him.

44:17

Okay Yeah, so your belief Had to be granted by who? I believe that our belief is granted by I mean everybody's belief was granted by god because god offers salvation to all people

44:28

Okay, so offers yeah, and so you're saying that You're saying he offers it.

44:35

So are you saying that the ultimate thing that would save a person is their choice? Uh, I believe god made that the requirement

44:45

Because uh, let's see. Is it first tim? No, that's not it.

44:50

Okay, let me find the verse if you tell me what you're looking for I might be able to Search for it.

45:01

I know it's in tennessee. I just don't know exactly. Okay Okay, okay for the grace of god has appeared that offers salvation to all people titus 2 11 that is 2 11

45:12

Not tennessee. Sorry That is 2 11 Uh for the grace of god has appeared bringing salvation to all men, right?

45:22

Okay. What is that? Uh, well the translation

45:27

I have it says offers salvation all people I've offered an offer can be brought but a brought Bringing salvation all people doesn't necessarily mean that all people are going to be safe because Just because something's brought to you doesn't mean people are necessarily going to accept it.

45:40

Yeah, so um Let's let's read theirs for the grace of god has been uh has appeared bringing salvation to all men instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly righteously and godly in this present age looking for the blessed hope and the appearing

46:05

Of the glory of our great god and savior jesus christ. So it tells us what that appearing is

46:12

Right that appear That the the the grace of god that you're referring to that's appearing is the offer of salvation

46:19

It's in the same verse says the grace of god appeared that offers salvation to all people. Okay so That is a that is what we would call a a general call calvinists believe in it

46:36

But but they did that salvation isn't offered to all people in calvinism. It's only offered to the elect

46:42

See again, you're this is where you're jumping you're you're using language i'm not hearing from calvinists.

46:48

I hear from anti -calvinists, okay so There then there there's some calvinists who you know would be harder line on this and say no it's it's it's only offered

46:58

But that's I I share the gospel on the streets to lots of people that are not the elect I don't know

47:06

That's because you don't know who the elect is Exactly. Well, let me let me ask you this.

47:11

Do you believe there are people in hell? Yeah, definitely Okay, so you believe the atonement is limited

47:17

It's limited to people who do believe that's the condition they have to choose to believe Okay, and yet the belief is something they can't do unless it's granted by god

47:27

I believe that all people can believe they just need to be told about jesus. It says it says that the passage of romans earlier it's like um

47:35

It's like how can they believe in him and in whom they have not heard and how how can they hear without a preacher?

47:41

That it's saying that the only thing that people need to do is hear the word hear the gospel and then they can believe okay so um again, you're you're

47:53

I'm focusing on on a certain area because you're saying that there's You're you're it seems like your specific issue is with what's called the order of salutis the order of salvation

48:03

That you want to argue that it's belief and regeneration Okay, even though the your your argument would be that someone has to choose god before they choose him

48:15

But here's the thing to think about And this is why I asked the question earlier

48:22

If man if god did everything he could do and now the ultimate thing is we choose god

48:29

Who really is the ultimate saver if god required us to choose him, then he's still this ultimate savior

48:34

You have to You have to assume that god didn't want us to choose him or didn't give us the ability to choose him

48:42

But if god desired for us to participate in his salvation act, then that's perfectly

48:47

It seems perfectly logical in my opinion, okay Do you have a passage where where it says that god set up this system?

48:57

In such a way that he requires us to believe because i've given you At least one verse so far that says that god grants belief

49:06

So god gives us the belief Like grants us the ability to believe that's not what it says

49:13

It has been granted for christ's sake not only to believe in him but also to suffer okay, if something's been granted to you are you forced therefore to Accept that if I if I grant you say say a scholarship,

49:26

I'm not forced to accept the scholarship Uh, but in the context here, yes, he's saying you're forced to accept that not only the belief but the what does it say?

49:34

So you're saying force now I'm, just saying from here from using what you're saying. The context is saying

49:39

That which which is that it says that the force to believe philippians 129 he's saying there that Just as god gave us

49:50

The belief he gives us suffering. I don't see forced in the first 29 Well, that's your language.

49:59

You you were the one that said it. So i'm just You said you said that they were forced to believe it said if you have been granted on your behalf of christ

50:07

Not only to believe in him but also to suffer him there's no force just like I was the one that said

50:13

If you're granted you're not necessarily forced. You're the one that said well, yes in this context you are forced But there's no force in that verse

50:21

Okay, so i'm what i'm saying that verse is teaching is that we are given belief

50:28

I don't I don't agree with that. I believe that you can believe in anything you want Like like that would be like I understand.

50:34

I understand. That's what you believe i'm just saying What does scripture say? Well, let's think about logically like so people that believe in in islam

50:43

God didn't grant them belief in islam. You don't believe that right? You don't believe god granted people belief in hinduism or buddhism or atheism macroevolution or anything

50:52

You can believe in anything you can choose to believe anything. Yeah, that would be part of the sin nature, right? That's but yeah, but it's still it's belief.

50:59

It's just strong belief in something There's a there's a big maybe we have a bigger issue. Maybe you don't

51:04

Understand what belief means in christianity So the idea here is that it is not believing in self

51:15

But the to believe in god There's a big difference in a works righteous system, which every religion is is going to give

51:23

I don't believe believing is works because paul says that faith is not a work of law. I didn't say it was works

51:31

That's what i'm saying You you what I want you to do I want you to actually listen to what i'm saying, okay

51:38

Yes, sir. And because what you're doing is you're you're you're trying to respond But you're not listening so we're talking islam

51:46

You brought up islam. So i'm talking about islam islam Is a works righteous system

51:54

Same with every other false religion Islam isn't you it's the same as calvism to be honest like islam god chooses who's going to be saved and who's not like Even even muhammad says he doesn't know if he's going to be saved like when

52:05

I was reading the quran It says that in there like it's it's solely on the on allah's will to choose who is going to go

52:13

All right And and what what do they do? to to earn all his mercy

52:20

It doesn't say they can do anything like even count and bad It like I said muhammad even said that he doesn't know if he's going to go see paradise

52:31

Because there's nothing you can do to earn it. It's solely based on all is real There is something you could do to earn it in islam.

52:37

There's there's if you die in a jihad you automatically that is true I I agree with that if you but in the quran it talks about doing one good deed will pay for 10 bad

52:47

That is works Okay, every every single man -made religion is made up by man because They're they they want to not submit to god.

52:59

They want to submit to self They they want themselves to rule and so they create a religion that they where they get to do the works

53:07

Okay They get to make the they're the ones Who get to make the choice that determines whether they go to heaven or hell?

53:15

I don't necessarily agree with that Um, I believe it's generally it's true

53:20

But I don't believe it's applies specifically to every single religion So Um The the

53:33

The thing here is when we're looking at philippians 129 this is talking about the idea of being pardoned

53:42

Or or forgiven, right? This is what's being granted.

53:47

It's it we're being this is where the we have the belief it comes from god the whole

53:54

Part of what this is saying Is that just as the suffering has been

54:01

Graciously given to god we don't think of it as gracious So has our belief that the argument he's making that paul's making in philippians to these people who are suffering

54:13

When people are suffering they they can feel like why is this happening to me? His argument is just as god has given you salvation

54:21

He has given you suffering And so we have to look at what god's doing in this

54:29

That's basically what his argument is But I like I said, I still don't see how granted equals you have to accept it

54:36

Like it's not okay, but no one said that see you keep saying that and you're not listening You're the one that said that though You can't say that no what

54:44

I said was that this proves that you're when you say faith or belief comes before Regeneration this verse disagrees with you this verse says god grants it and then you leave

54:57

No, he grants the offer like that. That's what that's what uh, titus is saying like He brings salvation to us.

55:05

He lays it before us and says look this is how you'd be safe This is the only way to get to heaven. This is the only way you can be saved

55:10

I'm requiring you to participate and accept this in in order to be saved. So do you believe that the bible has contradictions?

55:19

No, I don't believe the bible contradicts at all. So here's the problem You're you're you keep leaving this passage in its context to jump to another passage with a different context

55:31

This this passage doesn't say that That because they are granted faith that they that they have to accept it that that this this passage says

55:42

That god gave them the belief your argument is that we have to believe first This passage says god does it first?

55:53

You see and that's so we could jump all over the bible, but you have to first deal with this one This passage is saying that god granted belief

56:03

Right, and I I get to choose whether I accept that or reject it If I if I'm granted a scholarship

56:09

I get to choose why I accept the scholarship or I reject the scholarship It would be dumb to get to to deny the scholarship.

56:15

It would be dumb to deny salvation But this is still cancel. This is the the the the idea here is a canceled debt

56:23

Right a pardon, right? So this isn't something that you get to this is given

56:29

Let's let's say a pardon a pardon is offered to me because I committed a crime Okay, pardon is offered me and I I say

56:35

I I don't want this pardon I want I want to try and get off on my own my own merits or whatever it is like so, all right

56:44

Here's the thing I don't know. Do you do you listen to layton flowers? Uh, yeah

56:51

That makes sense then then a lot of what you're doing makes sense because this is where layton has his problems as well

56:57

You're arguing from analogy not from scripture Okay, but I can't argue from scripture we just haven't got to the verses that I want to provide yet I I know but the point is

57:09

Well, we can I don't disagree with the ones that you wanted to provide it like in the tightest one See, I don't have a problem. I don't I don't disagree with this one because I believe granted doesn't mean forced

57:18

I know you're just not you see the difference is i'm using hermeneutics. I'm looking at what this word means I'm looking at the context and every time

57:24

I read the context you go. Well, let me give you an example here Let me give an example there. I'm using your verse but in your verse, it doesn't say that because it's granted that I am forced to accept it or that I have to accept like that's

57:38

That's and that's not what i'm saying So if you're going to keep getting on to this forced thing

57:44

But that is what you're like. No, it's I Didn't get it. How did I how did

57:49

I get it? Unless god gave it to us. So so what let me be really clear What this is talking about?

57:55

Is that god gives belief And don't have a choice That's not the issue.

58:01

So why don't you move away from that and deal with what the text says? The text says god gives the belief your argument is we believe

58:13

And then god gives us Faith this verse would disagree that verse does not disagree with anything.

58:19

I think well, okay Yeah, because what you're doing Okay Part of it is you're not looking at the context

58:28

You're you're looking at a grant and you're going well, I can I could be granted a scholarship But is that the how this word is being used?

58:35

No That's not how this I could be granted a pardon. I use the exact same wording you were using

58:40

I can be granted a pardon, but I still have free you're denying free will you're saying that I don't have the choice to Reject it or not.

58:46

I deny that the I deny that the will is free. Yes, I don't deny free will Um the the issue that you

58:53

I'm going to bring up again is you're we're looking at the context. What is paul's argument? So you're saying so let me let me just use your argument

59:01

You're saying that we could choose whether we suffer or not when when god brings suffering in our life

59:06

We could choose whether we we suffer or not Yeah, we could reject christ and not have to suffer for that anymore

59:14

That that ends suffering no if we Well, okay that the

59:20

Initial suffering now, but we'll have suffering later. Like there's no there's no avoiding the consequences of devoid of rejecting christ, but I mean if I Jesus even talks about people turning away later times because they'll be facing suffering so it's like they like they turn away from the faith because they don't want to face the the consequences of So So the context of this is that the suffering is inevitable

59:48

So when you when you say well I can choose well, that's not the context that paul's using this in His whole argument to the philippians is that this is inevitable

59:59

You're saying that every single christian has to suffer or it will inevitably suffer what scripture would say is that they all will

01:00:06

But he's but he's speaking to a specific people, right? So these specific people might suffer.

01:00:12

I agree with that and maybe what's he's saying? He's saying that that suffering's inevitable Just like your belief that god gave the point i'm pointing out is you're saying there's

01:00:25

Necessarily inevitable in the in the text Okay, you'll you we'd have to look more at this context again

01:00:32

But what i'm showing you trying to show you Is that the order you keep jumping to forced to believe you're you're jumping to the to arguments that i'm not making

01:00:42

That's the logical conclusion. If I don't have a choice to believe then you then it has to be forced on me Then i'm going to be the only conclusion.

01:00:49

Okay, so you're saying it's the only conclusion We're going to go back to then the only conclusion is god wrote the bible or paul

01:00:55

Which one it did it? That's not correlated at all It's an exact thing it's the exact same thing i'm using the same doctrine the same argument in both scenarios or not

01:01:06

How okay? Show me how they correlate. Okay, you say That it's illogical

01:01:14

Right to to apply that god could work through a human being So that they make choices that god intends when it comes to salvation, but not when it comes to the bible the writing of scripture

01:01:26

Right So, no, I believe they have a choice both in both scenarios i'm consistent No, you're not

01:01:33

Yeah. Yeah, I am. I said paul has the choice and I said that people have the choice in this This is when god's bringing him salvation, but it had the but you just said the only logical conclusion is god forced

01:01:44

You just said that I said if they don't have a choice if they don't have a choice then the only logical

01:01:50

I say they don't have a choice When You said that this is granted to them it's inevitable if it's inevitable then they don't have a choice

01:01:58

When did I say that they don't have a choice you said it's inevitable if something is inevitable

01:02:03

It means it has to happen no matter what necessarily has to ask the third time When did I say they don't this is semantics, dude?

01:02:11

This is not semantics. The problem is you're playing a semantical game and you're not listening to me. No, i'm not i'm consistent

01:02:18

I Understand you think you're consistent seth, but you're not one thing you're not doing You're not hearing what i'm saying.

01:02:24

You're putting words in my ear and you're being logically inconsistent Okay How am I being logically inconsistent because you're saying that if something's granted to you then it is inevitable that this will happen to you

01:02:35

Inevitable means that it necessarily will happen. There's no choice in the matter. You don't get a choice

01:02:42

Okay Um could paul have written something in the scripture that god did not intend

01:02:50

Possibly, I I don't know really. I mean, I I don't know. I I Okay, it wouldn't have been scripture if he did but that's right

01:02:59

Yeah, so I mean all wrote other letters, but god didn't breathe through those letters He was sure he would know of at least one or two other letters to corinth.

01:03:06

They were not inspired Okay, and I agree with that. So the the doctrine of in of superintendent didn't apply to them

01:03:13

Okay, that's not work. I'm, i'm perfectly fine with that. Okay, so Again, i've never said that we don't have choices.

01:03:21

I i've been really clear in this That what i'm addressing with the with philippians 1 20 to 29

01:03:28

Is the argument that you said that we believe first? and then god grants

01:03:35

Salvation and this verse says that god grants the belief which means god has to be the actor first No, no,

01:03:41

I said that god brings salvation to all people that that bringing is the first action that gift that offer is the first Action of god arch like our choice is the response to that first action.

01:03:52

So wait that god God still did the first granting the first action is the general call is what you're saying?

01:03:58

Yes, when did the when did the general call it? I don't call it a general call But I believe it happened at jesus's death at jesus's death.

01:04:05

Okay, and when when did god elect? I don't believe the same definition that calvinists use for election.

01:04:13

I don't believe it's individuals the salvation of these more of a corporate election more Actually, even on that i'm not 100

01:04:20

I really don't have it It's a firm Okay conclusion because i'm kind of it's a confusing topic to be honest

01:04:28

It's actually not it's only confusing for those that want to deny calvinism It's a very easy topic when when when paul when paul writes in romans that he

01:04:38

Show he god Elected not esau but isaac That's that's personal.

01:04:44

That's not nations Now romans 9 was actually written to to the jewish nation.

01:04:50

It was every single analogy Say that again romans 9 was written about uh, religious jews.

01:04:58

You can look at every single Example used in romans 9 is one from jewish history.

01:05:03

Yes, like it's like So it's like he's talking to people who believe that their works and that their genealogy was saving them

01:05:11

And he was telling them that though that's not true at all. They're like god can can He was actually talking to people who were complaining about paul taking

01:05:18

Salvation to the gentiles and he's in paul responds to them saying god can have mercy on whoever he wants

01:05:25

And he's not saying that he's limiting that to people. He's saying that he will have mercy on everyone. All right

01:05:31

Well, let's let's see. Let's read the context Okay, ephesians chapter 1 verse 3.

01:05:36

Wait, I thought we were doing romans. We don't have ephesians now Yeah, well, I asked the question when when did god elect?

01:05:42

What was it ephesians what ephesians 1 3 and and you said this has to do with corporate so let's let's let's see

01:05:50

Romans 1 3 Says this blessed be the god and father of our lord. Jesus christ who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing

01:05:59

Now is that is that corporate or is that personal? That we've been blessed with it depends on who that us is

01:06:05

I believe the us is writing to the church in epithets so just to the Not individually,

01:06:11

I believe it's it's the believers in general. Okay to believe okay Uh, that's personal

01:06:17

In general in general means not personal it means in general So it's not it's so believers.

01:06:23

It's all it applies to all believers. It doesn't apply to specific individuals. It applies to all believers Yeah, and those believers are individuals though Oh, yeah.

01:06:32

Yeah, but i'm saying it's not it's not written to specific individuals It's written to believers in general like to everyone who believes well, you're sounding like a calvinist good.

01:06:42

Um, Because that would be the calvinist way of looking at it um So he's blessed us with every with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in christ

01:06:53

Just as he chose us in him Before the foundation of the world

01:06:59

That we would be holy and blameless before him, right? It says notice those words in him you weren't in him

01:07:06

But until you believed you weren't in him at the foundation of the world because you didn't believe at the foundation of the world

01:07:11

You're only in him when you believe Yes, but he chose us before he created us chose us in him

01:07:20

Chose us so that us doesn't apply to individuals who haven't believed yet It only applies to people who have beliefs that us is talking about believers it is

01:07:31

You know, I I think What would benefit you greatly? Much more than listening to layton flowers would be to take some classes on hermeneutics

01:07:43

Layton would benefit from it as well because what you're doing is you're coming to the scriptures With a conclusion and you're trying to fit it into the no not at all

01:07:51

I'm letting the scriptures say what they say I believe that you are actually coming with a presupposition as to what it actually means and i'm trying to apply it to the scriptures

01:07:59

Okay, what i'm what i've been doing is reading the scriptures in the other passage I I read the scriptures.

01:08:04

I kept reading it over and over and you kept putting in the word forced No, you did that. You said it was inevitable.

01:08:10

That's what forced means when when in in that case

01:08:16

It doesn't say inevitable in that in anywhere in the context. Okay You're right it doesn't have that exact word.

01:08:22

However I'm, i'm going to say this again what I said in that passage I kept pointing out that the belief has been granted and you kept talking about choices

01:08:32

That wasn't what I was talking about. That wasn't what the passage is talking about the passage doesn't say that it's inevitable

01:08:37

It doesn't say that you don't have a choice. That's not that's all i'm pointing out It doesn't say that your choice is not he's saying to those people

01:08:44

Who were suffering? That were suffering and their suffering was inevitable That they're suffering wasn't say that Huh, it doesn't say that's inevitable

01:08:55

Okay the context but I don't care i'm not making a big deal over the word inevitable you are I'm, not the one that made that the issue you did

01:09:02

You said it was that that passage says that god grants the belief I didn't say it has anything to do with choices

01:09:09

You did you read that in you're reading a whole lot in all i'm doing is reading the scriptures on this one

01:09:14

All i'm doing is i'm not reading anything in it. I i'm saying Just because it's granted doesn't mean that i'm i'm i'm i'm just i'm just specifically reading it and saying

01:09:25

Nothing in there says that it's inevitable. Nothing in there says that I I have to believe or I have to suffer

01:09:33

I never said that at all with that you keep going back to this. See this is the thing that's

01:09:41

We're not we're just talking past each other Okay, so i'll ask the question again according to this text

01:09:47

When did god choose Which text? Ephesians chapter one verse four.

01:09:54

When did god choose us? He chose believers before the foundation of the world he didn't choose us specifically he chose believers

01:10:05

And believers are not people No, they are people So what does he mean generally like I chose

01:10:12

I he chose people who believe people who are in In christ in him To be holy and blameless to to be conformed to the image of the sun

01:10:22

It doesn't say that he chose individuals to to Be saved or he didn't he didn't say he chose individuals to to get everything in this is talking about individual salvation

01:10:32

He predestined us Us means believers people who are in him. Yeah, he's not saying he he's not he didn't say

01:10:39

Christians He's not saying christians in a general sense Anywhere in here.

01:10:45

He didn't say individuals either Uh, that's what the us is the us is believers.

01:10:51

We're still disagreeing on that separated from the Those who in your case you'd be saying the non -believers

01:10:58

Right, aren't they still people? Yeah, okay so Thank you that you didn't prove anything

01:11:06

It says only people in in him it says he chose people in him you're not in him until you believe

01:11:14

Hey, okay, he's not choosing So, let me see if I understand you're saying he's choosing

01:11:21

Uh when we believe No, no, so he's he's but the in him you're saying that somehow applies to the the the cross

01:11:31

He chose us in him us who are in him Like he's talking about believers only the people that are in him

01:11:41

He's not talking about specific individuals he's not saying that larry I chose larry to be saved

01:11:46

He's saying I chose believers to be holy and blameless to live a holy and blameless life

01:11:52

That's why that's what he chose believers to do He didn't choose this to just say that we're believing and then still go live a life of sin

01:11:58

He chose us to be holy and blameless. Okay Well, let me let me let me try to deal with uh something else

01:12:06

Um, I think I think people are seeing You know, I don't think you see what you're doing, but I think others from the comments are um

01:12:14

Turn to second timothy 2 24 to 26 your whole argument of the will not is is free, right?

01:12:22

224 326. Yes Second timothy 224. It says this the lord the lord slave it says bond servant in most translations, but the lord slave

01:12:33

Must not be quarrelsome But be kind to all able to teach patient when wronged

01:12:41

With gentleness correcting those who are in opposition If perhaps god may grant them repentance

01:12:50

Leading to the knowledge of truth. So first off we see again god is the one giving granting this

01:12:57

Yes. All right Now it's as we look at your issue with the will so god grants them repentance leading to the knowledge of truth

01:13:07

And they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil having been captive To him to do his will now

01:13:18

That seems to indicate if they're captive to doing satan's will That they're not having the free will that you you claim.

01:13:26

We also see in here that I don't see that at all You don't see that no, okay,

01:13:33

I don't see anything about their free will being being Who's who's captive to?

01:13:39

If they're captive to satan's will that doesn't mean their free will is gone Well, do you understand the difference between free will and will?

01:13:49

I mean not really it doesn't maybe you can clarify that more A free will would be that they could choose to follow satan or choose to follow god

01:13:59

A will means they can make choices Can a human being choose

01:14:05

Okay, why would god design a system where people cannot choose to follow him Okay, so you think that god would never command us to do anything we can't do

01:14:18

That I will I don't think god would ever command us to do something. We have no ability to do Okay, can you be holy as god is holy?

01:14:27

No, okay, then god has commanded you about two or three dozen times

01:14:34

In leviticus alone, I believe I believe there are like I don't believe you can be holy In every single aspect of your life the command be holy as god.

01:14:45

You can you can do holy things like say For you can say one day or one hour you could be holy you're like you can be holy temporarily

01:14:54

Can you be holy as god is holy it doesn't give me time during Okay, yes for one minute

01:15:01

I can be holy as god is holy if I don't do anything wrong for me That's blasphemy

01:15:07

How's it blasphemy? You could be we're we can never be holy as god is holy We'll never be able to be completely separated

01:15:15

Why would tell why would god tell us to do something or command us to do something that we can't that he knows we can't

01:15:21

Do that seems like that seems like insulting to god's intelligence No, that's insulting to god that you think that you have the right to tell god how he can do things he told us

01:15:30

He told us holy. He told us to be holy for he is holy. He thinks that we have the ability to do that No He knows we don't have the ability, but that's the standard nonetheless

01:15:43

That seems like it's an insult to god's intelligence and to command something for people who can't do it

01:15:49

Okay Again I think the main thing that you're struggling with Is it seems?

01:15:56

You have a high view of god or sorry high view of man and a low view of god. I have the highest view of god

01:16:01

Okay, I think capitalism drags down god considerably Okay, why because we actually okay look here's the thing

01:16:08

You said that god would never command us to do something we can't do I gave you a command That he you cannot do

01:16:14

I cannot do we cannot be I take that back then I I take that back. I do believe that you can be holy for say a second

01:16:22

One second and and you did it. Okay. No and folks. I hope I hope for for those who are listening and watching you're seeing when when anybody

01:16:31

Has a system whatever system I don't care what system is when they put the system above the scriptures

01:16:36

This is what you're putting calvinism above scriptures. No, i'm not Yeah, I believe you do calvinist.

01:16:42

Did I do it? I never said it was calvinist. Did I? But it's what you're defending.

01:16:49

Oh, I could I could defend islam. I can make a defense of islam. I don't have to believe in it Okay, I think

01:16:55

You know, I as a debater I have to be able to debate any side

01:17:01

Okay, something that the the way I was raised as being jewish You're raised to debate.

01:17:07

It's just you you have to be able to debate any any side Um to fully understand an argument and this is the thing

01:17:13

I understand Both sides of this argument because i've read both sides. I agree too. I've said i've heard listen to the best arguments of both

01:17:20

No, i've listened to i've listened to james white. Like I said, i've read i've read the uh, calvin's institutes

01:17:26

I've read the west minnesota confession of faith I've listened to the best arguments on both sides and I I think calvinism comes up short every single time but what we're seeing here is when we come to passages like this where it says that god gives and that's the the word in in uh, first timothy, sorry second timothy 225

01:17:44

The word for grant here Is to give he gives repentance, right?

01:17:49

Right, if I if I give you a gift, are you right? Do you are you is it inevitable that you have to receive it?

01:17:55

Okay, folks watch what he just did there It's it's the latent flowers tactic you give you give scripture.

01:18:01

Let's let's go over here to an illustration I'm, just asking you what scripture says Scripture, I don't

01:18:07

I don't deny it but that's not saying you're saying that Just because it's granted that What that it's inevitable that that I have to accept it

01:18:16

I didn't say that did I well, okay What what I said god gives it we don't choose god gives

01:18:22

Okay So so when I'm saying that you know, we still get a choice the issue that you have is you make the same mistake?

01:18:32

that many on that many Calvinists would make as well That you think it's an either or you think that god has to choose us before we choose him or That it has to be that we choose god before he chooses us

01:18:47

And the reason both sides have a problem is because they don't take the time to sit and understand how we got our scripture

01:18:54

How we do good works. It's the doctrine of superintending This is the thing you you have yet to fully comprehend that argument

01:19:02

I think you're still putting these doctrines above god's word Like you're not just letting god's word say what it says in its plain reading of the text

01:19:10

You're still going to these other doctrines and i'm the one that's doing a plain reading of the text You're the one that's yeah, but you know, you're going to these doctrines you're going to these thing if perhaps god grants them repentance that god grants belief

01:19:26

And you're saying that well, that's forced. I didn't know. I know i'm saying he granted it to me

01:19:31

That doesn't mean I have to accept it That doesn't mean anybody has to accept it.

01:19:37

Okay, just granted. So then you would not believe that god is sovereign, correct? No, that's not the definition of sovereign sovereign means, uh, he's in control.

01:19:45

No. No, that's not what the definition of sovereign says Let's look it up The idea of sovereignty means in control supreme ruler or monarch

01:19:55

Especially a monarch supreme ruler supreme power. Where are you looking that up? Dictionary, okay, so Again, we we don't go to an english dictionary to look up.

01:20:08

So we had to create our own our own. Um Yeah, we look at missions. We make our own definitions for words dictionaries

01:20:16

Yeah, no because theological dictionaries are written by calvinists Sovereignty does not mean that you're you're a puppet master and you control every single thing that happens.

01:20:25

Uh, who said that? Oh, wait, right. No one Okay, I I took that We have already said that determinism is not what's being discussed

01:20:37

Okay, but that would be the ultimate sovereign god that would not like a master again Because you don't understand superintending seth

01:20:45

God can work that's a doctrine that you that you're that you're going to I I don't yeah I I don't understand because I don't go to other doctrines outside the bible.

01:20:53

Okay, so you okay? You don't accept doctrines outside the bible who wrote the book of romans I'm, just going to keep going back to this until it drills into you because This is the doctrine that you say you'll accept in one area, but you say it's a logical who wrote the doctrine of superintendence

01:21:07

Did god write that is that inspired? Yeah, no, that was that was by men Okay, then why are you going to that?

01:21:14

So you're saying you only will look at things from scripture That's not what I said, but i'm saying that that doesn't hold it doesn't i'm saying it doesn't necessarily hold any authority other than what?

01:21:23

You apply to it Yeah, these doctrines outside of scripture do not necessarily hold any authority

01:21:29

At all like like you might you might agree with these doctrines, but they don't necessarily hold any authority

01:21:35

I agree that the bible has authority Yeah, but it where it holds authority is this you say in one area.

01:21:41

It's a logical But then the exact same thing is logical in another area when it's the same exact show me how much show me my double standards

01:21:49

Okay, where am I saying that it's logical in one not another i'm saying that god works through human beings in the writing of scripture

01:21:56

And god works through human beings in bringing them to repentance, right? But I see that they have the choice in both aspects.

01:22:03

I say that they god does work through people People allow god to work through them

01:22:09

And when you when you say god that the people allow god then who is the ruler? God is because god gave them the ability to allow himself like god god wants consent from us what verse says what you just said there that god gives us this ability because The scripture and this is a major thing that you keep hanging on is that god somehow set up this system where we begin we can choose

01:22:35

And god can't work against this it seems but your key because you keep saying I never said that at all I never said that god can't work against us.

01:22:41

You said this is the system. That's god set up And you said earlier that the only way is that we would choose god

01:22:48

I think if it got like if okay, let's use a big if if god set that system up Then that is how it is if god wants us to participate and choose and be consented into receiving his faith

01:23:02

Yeah, no, no, here's the thing Show me in scripture where that system is God wants us to choose that faith

01:23:08

The whole thing that you keep saying is that if god set up this system this way right yet You can't find any scripture that supports that this is the way he set it up I can sure

01:23:21

I can nine in romans chapter 10 and say here you have god's sovereignty and human responsibility. I see them both there

01:23:27

I don't see how you can say that they have human responsibility if If it was not granted to them in the first place

01:23:36

Like how can they be responsible? Like I said, this is like commanding a person with no legs to jump If the if god never granted

01:23:43

Faith to people then they can't be accused of not having or not choosing to have faith. There's no moral culpability

01:23:50

There's someone that just dropped out of backstage named pedro Pedro, if you're if you're still watching, uh,

01:23:57

I was going to go to you at the At the actually in about six minutes. We were going to go I was going to go to your question

01:24:02

So if you're still watching you could pop back in I know you've been here for about an hour and I wanted to get to you, uh, just wanted to wrap this up, but Uh, so pedro if you want to jump back in if you if you're still there, so, um, here's the thing

01:24:16

You're saying that if god set up the system But the burden of proof is on you that god actually did set up that system.

01:24:23

Okay, so Let me read some verses like In ephesians 1 13 it says when you believed you were marked in him with the spirit with this

01:24:33

Arbitrary you were marking him with a seal the promised holy spirit It says when you believed

01:24:38

Then you were marked and sealed in the spirit Yeah, that i'm not going to dispute that because that is after your regenerate that's that regeneration

01:24:48

But you believe regeneration becomes before you believe Huh, you you you you believe regeneration comes before you believe don't you?

01:24:55

No You don't No, I never said that did I? Oh, okay. I I I I stay corrected

01:25:01

This is the whole thing that i'm trying to tell you why you're not listening You you've you've been so busy trying to debate what you think

01:25:08

I believe you've never listened to what I actually believe This is the doctrine of superintending

01:25:14

No, it's not Okay You you're okay when you're saying something is granted to you when faith is granted to you.

01:25:22

It's given to you It's forced upon you. I didn't say that Actually, you go back and you listen to how many times

01:25:29

I corrected you that I not said that it's forced But that's the only argument you have is

01:25:35

You said it's inevitable. It means it's forced like if it's granted. Okay, so if it's granted that people have

01:25:41

I'll i'm going to ask you to drop the inevitable thing because you're taking that out of the context of what I said there

01:25:46

You did see what I meant. Okay, we'll drop it though to to those people who were suffering

01:25:53

The suffering was just as it was inevitable and he's saying just same god that gave you this

01:26:00

You said inevitable You said inevitable not me You you're the one that brought it up and started with the is it inevitable?

01:26:09

I just said it's inevitable and you're saying it's not you're not saying it's like you're contradicting yourself Yeah, because you're using it out of context, but there's no context.

01:26:18

It says inevitable You're using what I what I said out of context and i've corrected you about half a dozen times

01:26:24

And yet you still do it, which you're not listening doing it, dude I what you keep doing it?

01:26:32

like You said you're right. I keep correcting you. No you No, you keep saying something and then i'll i'll repeat back what you just said and then you'll say no

01:26:40

I didn't say that I didn't say it in that context, correct There's there's words have context.

01:26:45

I was saying specific you you were the one that brought up the inevitable I know that that this is something you're hung up on with the

01:26:51

You just said it five minutes ago just five minutes ago you said it because you brought it up again

01:26:59

You said that their suffering is inevitable I didn't say that Yes, because you brought it up and I was trying to explain to you yet again

01:27:10

How you were using it not in the context that I gave it Okay You I I see you're getting frustrated.

01:27:18

I don't want you getting frustrated but the reality is is that you're you really I'm, just i'm going to strongly encourage you to take some classes on hermeneutics

01:27:29

Okay I I seriously

01:27:37

Because you're you're making mistakes and you're not You haven't showed me any mistakes. I've made

01:27:43

Well, all i've done i've read scripture and you read into scripture so I exegeted you

01:27:49

I said you know you isolated I executed Really? Okay. So so when I read

01:27:56

When I read that are that god may grant them repentance

01:28:03

Does god grant them repentance sure Okay, so god gives it to them. Yeah, and yet and there's not a thing of choice here

01:28:13

Yes, there is There's nothing that says there is no choice Uh, it's saying that god gives it where's the choice when

01:28:22

I receive a gift on christmas I don't have to take that there's the illustration again. Thank you very much

01:28:27

You you you're proving it over and over again that you're you're not dealing with what text the text says you go when

01:28:32

I get a Let's use the exact words of the text if god grants me faith I do not have to To to use that faith.

01:28:39

I don't have to do it. I still have the choice. I'm using your exact same verse I'm not using an alliteration.

01:28:44

I'm not using any kind of a different example just because something is granted to me Like like faith doesn't mean i'm forced to have to have faith

01:28:54

Like just because i'm granted the ability to have faith does not mean i'm forced to have faith Yeah, I mean the point that i'm trying to show you is that When you're reading in choice into that you did it in both passages that I gave you because I I don't believe the bible the bible assumes choice in Almost all those verses that that was a perfect.

01:29:17

Thank you. That is a perfect point to how you're Isageating the text you're reading something into the text.

01:29:24

You're saying that this is what you expected to know You're doing the exact same thing you're accusing me of you're saying that we don't have a choice no, no

01:29:31

The verse doesn't say that let me show you do again For to you it has been granted for christ's sake not only to believe

01:29:40

And i'm saying that means that is that christ is granted to us to believe exactly what the text says

01:29:47

And then you say because based on our choice that's not what the text says You you go. Oh in him in him in him

01:29:54

Yeah, but in him doesn't say in him you believe it doesn't say in him who believes

01:30:01

It says in him But you add the belief in there In both those passages you focus on the in him and you say that that is at salvation

01:30:11

And you you did this a couple of times so here here's the thing that you're not proving that because something's granted that it's that You don't have a choice.

01:30:21

Okay. Why did I bring up the philippians 129 Because you think that that proves that faith is forced upon people

01:30:31

Okay, they don't have a choice. I want you to go back and listen because I've said it half a dozen times throughout

01:30:36

I brought this up to show you if you don't have a choice, then how do they get it? It's got to be forced like that's the only logical conclusion

01:30:45

Really and yet you don't have that same logical conclusion when it comes to the bible Did god force paul to write it?

01:30:53

No No, I don't believe he did so so god can work through a human being. Yeah Work even within their choices so that their choices are what god intends it to be

01:31:02

Yes, and that's exactly how faith works like god intends people to make their own choices to have faith

01:31:08

Is the working correct? I mean

01:31:17

Yes ish, but god still requires us to participate in that work Okay, I I don't see where god requires us to But god works because two and there's a big difference there it's it's the it's the difference between And and this is this is the thing when

01:31:36

I when i'm reading these texts I'm trying to show you that it is not some chronological thing that you believe first And then god gives us that's not what

01:31:45

I said at all. You're not listening to me I said that god offers it first god offers it to all people first And then we have the responsibility to respond to that offer

01:31:56

And the offer that what I what we call the general call Okay is an offer to all people.

01:32:03

I agree But yet the passages we're looking at are not you've said we're not to all people like in ephesians

01:32:08

You're saying that's not all people. Those are just to those that are in christ. Well, that was talking about the chosen though It didn't say it was all people in that passage

01:32:17

And it wouldn't say it's all people in this passage either because they're in which one in philippians 129 or Or the the second timothy passage, okay,

01:32:26

I didn't say it. I didn't say that that's applied to all people Okay So then what you end up seeing is that it's not the call that you're just applied

01:32:34

You you're saying that this that that's what comes first, but you're saying that there's two different calls I'm saying there's a general call

01:32:42

It's and so what's the what's the call that and then there is election where god has chosen before the foundation of time

01:32:48

So why would god call everyone if he already chose the winners and losers of the foundation of the world

01:32:55

Well, that seems redundant. It's like that's a waste of time. Why call people who he knows are never going to come Why do do you think you know more than god that you know, not at all then then why do you not?

01:33:06

I mean, here's what scripture says but you're going well this this is illogical or it doesn't make sense to you But yeah, and you're and you're reading and your interpretation of it.

01:33:13

It doesn't make sense And yet the humorous thing is time and time again you have

01:33:19

When I back you into a corner you agree with my I haven't been in any corner yet. That's the that's the irony

01:33:25

Okay, I haven't been in a corner yet Okay You have said over and over That you end up when

01:33:33

I push you that you end up agreeing with the position that I said that god works through human beings

01:33:40

Yeah, so god chooses first he ends up working first They still have the consent to let god work through them you see how you can't even answer that question

01:33:51

It's so hard for you because that question is is I just answered it. I told you what my view is

01:33:56

You're just not accepting my view. No, i'm asking you answer the question. It's a yes answer my question. It's not an answer

01:34:03

Qualifying it Why can't I qualify it what rule says I can't qualify something? Okay So you're saying that even though god did this before you were born

01:34:14

Before you were born you're assuming that the election before I was born is to salvation. I don't agree with that You don't no

01:34:21

Okay um, let me ask you this because patreon didn't come back in so When when were you forgiven?

01:34:30

When I believed when you believed Okay, could you do me a favor

01:34:37

And Open to the book of colossians Which chapter and verse we're looking at.

01:34:52

Um, if you could turn to colossians 2 14 And what

01:35:01

I want to do with in colossians 2 14 Um, actually let's let's back up a little bit read verse 13

01:35:10

When you were dead in your trespasses When you're dead in your in your transgressions

01:35:16

And uncircumcised in the flesh. He made you alive with him having forgiven you all transgressions, so Are all our this is dealing with can we agree?

01:35:27

This is dealing with all of our transgressions? Sure. Okay So Having canceled out the certificate of debt.

01:35:35

What does it mean to cancel out the certificate of debt? the pardon The pardon, okay

01:35:41

So it means that the the debt is forgiven. Yeah anything. Okay Having canceled out the the certificate of debt

01:35:49

Consisting of decrees against us which was hostile to us

01:35:55

He has taken it out of the way And nailed it to where the cross the cross

01:36:02

So is when were you forgiven according to this when was that canceled when you believe or at the cross?

01:36:11

Okay, I I agree. It um The the cross paid for the salvation of all people but until I believed

01:36:18

I did not receive credit for that pardon I did not receive Yeah that that I guess is a more clarification

01:36:25

So yeah, so god And I said that at the beginning like christ paid the debt for all mankind at the at the cross

01:36:31

And that's when the offer Is to all mankind comes at the cross And then but I don't receive that until I actually believe

01:36:38

I don't I don't get covered by that pardon Until I do the condition which is belief

01:36:44

All right, and see here again For you to look at what i'm doing is i'm reading the scripture and i'm accepting what the scripture says

01:36:52

Having canceled out the certificate of debt Consisting of the decrees against us which which was hostile to us

01:37:00

That he has taken them away and nailed them to the cross. I'm not reading anything more into that.

01:37:05

I'm not either as it is I how did I change it? Because that says that that the the forgiveness is at the cross

01:37:13

The debt was paid at the cross not when we believed it has nothing to do with our belief Are you saying are you saying belief has nothing to do with anything?

01:37:20

I'm saying that it that god has you're saying that everything is when we believe when god had said that he's he's elected us before He he did the act.

01:37:29

Yeah, he did the act on the cross. It doesn't say that But it doesn't say the act it says it was canceled out

01:37:35

Okay, yes, it was canceled out but when are we covered by that Then at the cross it was

01:37:42

Canceled that yes So in god's mind Then your belief doesn't matter If it had already happened at the cross and your belief doesn't matter.

01:37:50

Did I did I say that? That that's the logical conclusion. Did I say that? What is the point of belief then?

01:37:56

Did I say that is belief just a just a redundant act because we are already saved.

01:38:02

Did I say that? I don't see how you are escaping the logical conclusion.

01:38:08

Oh very easily the doctrine of superintending. Oh a doctrine outside the bible It's not authoritative uh

01:38:15

Okay, so it seems to be authoritative with you when it comes to the scripture You know, oh, yeah, the scripture is authoritative.

01:38:22

The reason is because this doctrine solves a problem that you have No, it doesn't it's a made -up doctrine that that's a man -made doctrine that doesn't do anything

01:38:31

But trying to make your analogy make more sense Well, you get mad at me for making analogies, but you're going back to these analogies

01:38:38

You're doing the exact same thing you can condemn me for No Because you're saying again you say it's a logical when

01:38:44

I use it in the area of regeneration you say it's logical in the area of Sanctification or because they have the choice and all those things

01:38:52

You're the one that's ruling ruling out that they don't have a choice in these actions Okay, i'm going to ask for the sixth time now, when did

01:39:01

I say that belief is not part That has plays no part. When did I say that? You keep saying when you said that When you when you forget were you forgiven at the already at forgiven at the cross with every is

01:39:18

Your salvation happened at the cross before you were even born before you ever believed Yeah, that's what it says.

01:39:24

I I disagree with that No, it's john 3 16 says those who believe experienced in time right what scripture says

01:39:34

No, it doesn't it doesn't say that at all. It's it's saying that the debt is paid But it's not saying you're covered by it until you believe

01:39:41

It says it says it was canceled he having canceled a certificate of debt at the cross not at belief one second so the point is

01:39:56

You keep telling me what I what I believe and I keep telling you you're wrong I mean over and over and over again when you believed you were marked within him

01:40:05

With a spirit the promised holy spirit what verse is this? Ephesians 1 13. Okay by by faith into this grace, which we now stand

01:40:14

So ephesians 1 13 Which is dealing with after regeneration correct

01:40:22

No, it's saying Belief came first didn't regeneration the mark of the seal and the holy spirit coming into you.

01:40:28

That's regeneration So when you believed you were marked with him with the sea

01:40:35

These are simultaneous acts so I have no problem With that but you're the one that focuses on an order of things

01:40:44

So you're saying that the that the sealing where does that come in your order? It comes after belief

01:40:52

After belief right the first says when you believed where you were sealed with the spirit Where's regeneration in this in this order of yours?

01:41:00

The sealing of the spirit when you believed then you were sealed with the spirit The sealing of the spirit is different than a different act than regeneration

01:41:09

Regeneration is something that happens to a human the sealing of the spirit Is that is a down payment for the future our future inheritance as it says in the very next verse

01:41:17

Who has given us the pledge of our inheritance? Okay, that's it's a pledge of their inheritance who has given us the pleasure

01:41:25

So so where's regeneration? The the seal the spirit that the seal of being sealed with this.

01:41:30

Holy spirit is not regeneration in your opinion No, it's a totally different act one is okay.

01:41:36

A lot of different calculus would disagree with that So maybe maybe it doesn't apply to you. Okay, the issue is all these things are simultaneous things

01:41:44

You're the one that wants to divide them up. Not me. I see I i'm gonna say person believes regenerated

01:41:49

They're adopted into the family god sealed with the holy spirit and dwell with the holy spirit baptized with the holy spirit all in a single

01:41:55

No, that works for mine that works for mine. Okay, but The thing is you're saying that the belief has to come first I do agree with that.

01:42:06

That's what the verse says and it's not simultaneous It's true, okay, even if it's

01:42:12

Even if regeneration happened, okay. Yeah If something has to happen first and then the regeneration happens simultaneously after that That's that's perfectly compatible, okay, actually no it's not because if it happens after and it can't be simultaneously

01:42:27

But Okay, just a second after that. That's fine Like i'm saying the belief is the qualifier like you don't get to be you don't get to go to heaven

01:42:36

Unless you're a believer. That's the qualifier. Yeah, so I agree. I agree. You're saying that i'm just saying scripture doesn't say that that's all

01:42:43

Scripture says what i'm saying I I have no like I don't have to read anything into these past.

01:42:48

Yeah. Yeah, you do You have you have to read that that being granted means that that they don't have a choice

01:42:55

I never said that I've told you. Yeah, you did you go back and wrote your own video because you did say that I I continuously said that that's not the issue

01:43:05

It's not you read it you're reading in that you're you keep reading that into the text So Okay, okay

01:43:13

Okay, if you don't say that then then I can say That I do have the choice just because it's granted then

01:43:18

I have the choice to deny that grant Yeah, you're just you're reading it into the scripture that's the only thing i'm pointing out you're reading into the scripture

01:43:26

I can accuse you the same thing because you're doing the exact same thing You're just on the other side of the analogy. You're you're reading in that you can't

01:43:33

All I did was read the scripture I'm not That's all i'm doing too And like I said, that doesn't say anything that about not being able to receive or not being able to choose to receive not receive it.

01:43:43

All right, well We're gonna we we end up we're coming up on time um You know,

01:43:49

I I thank you for coming in seth Um, i'm gonna put you put you in the backstage you can stick around.

01:43:54

Uh, john i'm gonna bring you in I see anthony I'm gonna anthony's listening in the car

01:44:00

Um, but he'll have to let us know in the private chat if he wants us to bring him in so john, uh

01:44:06

You've been listening. I'll let you give some some of your announce. We always want to You know for people who who watch these discussions pick up on things to to say um

01:44:19

What what what's your view? I'm, really kind of bummed pedro Stopped out.

01:44:24

I don't know what his question was but Um, but it was a very good engaging question and seth

01:44:30

I really do appreciate you being patient with us, um, and and being uh cordial over this whole thing and It is a tough discussion to talk to have

01:44:42

I mean that's really what it comes down to is it It's hard because you got one worldview that you are not wanting to let go

01:44:53

And and then you have another one where you know calvinists are very stubborn people

01:44:59

Okay, not that i'm saying andrew is a calvinist because he he always says that he's like he's not a calvinist

01:45:06

But he knows how to say calvinism is a loaded term Yeah. Yeah, I prefer I prefer a monergist to be honest.

01:45:13

I mean i'd rather just be called a monergist. It's it's easier to understand Um, it doesn't have a lot of baggage.

01:45:19

Um, I asked earlier I go Why why is being granted faith an issue with seth? um, because it just seems like he he has such

01:45:29

A a strong definition of the word granted meaning that there's

01:45:36

The man doesn't have his own choice in the matter But I would say this is like well if you if you didn't have a choice to be born into this world

01:45:47

Why would you assume that you have a choice? to be reborn in this world and and I think that that's uh,

01:45:56

I think that you know, he he along with many other non -galvanists just don't understand that that salvation is is given to us and God will do

01:46:12

He will not fail at that Yeah, I guess I guess really where it comes down to for me where where I do have strong views

01:46:19

You know and I would be a monergist And and I didn't say I'd define those terms and I didn't so let me define those uh, you know monergism and synergism have the idea of whether God does the saving

01:46:33

Or whether we work with god to do the saving I think when we say it's it's we work with god um,

01:46:43

I think that what we end up with is it it ends up it means it's I'm going to say this and seth is going to get really upset with me

01:46:51

But it's it's roman catholicism. It's it's works plus faith now now granted he's going to say

01:46:58

You know belief is not a work and that's that's right um You know,

01:47:04

I would say it's a response It's a response when when god You know when god starts working through us that is the response.

01:47:11

Why why would we hold to what some would call irresistible grace? I think the reason people would hold to irresistible grace

01:47:19

Uh is is because god is working through the person It's the same reason I would say that paul could not write anything that god didn't intend because God was working through him.

01:47:32

Let me uh, charlie spine has popped in. So charlie, how are you? Oh, hi, andrew.

01:47:37

How are you doing? I'm doing fine. Thanks. We got uh, 12 minutes left, but I figured I was just a a bit concerned for the guy that uh he seemed to go to such lengths to Avoid your straightforward reading of scripture

01:47:54

Uh without interpretation really I mean, they're pretty straightforward and don't need much of anything else but to be read and and I was frustrated that He had to struggle to try to find a way to avoid what it was saying

01:48:08

Uh I'm, not i'm not sure I understand why that Why that would be so important to him?

01:48:15

I think because he listens to layton flowers. He's actually Um, he's doing what layton does and and I mean,

01:48:21

I I like layton. He's he's a friend of mine He's someone who you know, you know, I call him up Huh?

01:48:30

I like him. I love him as a brother brother in christ, but yeah, I don't like his theology

01:48:37

Well, I I don't it's not that I don't I don't I I and he and i've talked about this.

01:48:42

I just I disagree vehemently with the way he goes about debating and you know his his debate style of You know, like he'll take he'll he argues out of parables

01:48:55

And and not you know making parables say something they never Would have you know, they were never intended to say, you know

01:49:02

Parables have you know when you do hermeneutics when you study with a parable the purpose of parables find the one main point

01:49:10

And that's the don't try to read other things into it. That's where people get in trouble Layton's kind of guilty of that and he disagrees with me.

01:49:17

I know He thinks he doesn't but You know the the thing is he does he does argue from analogy a lot and I think that he's

01:49:29

I think that the thing with layton is he is such a likable guy Because he really is and I think that Especially like what look one one of the reasons

01:49:40

I think that people think layton flowers wins debates Is because he does these debates with people typically not everyone

01:49:49

But you'll see like he debated with james white and you didn't have this but he's debated other people who just get angry

01:49:56

They get frustrated and and it makes layton look like he's right because He he's got an ability to to keep his composure

01:50:06

I love that about him You know, he doesn't get frustrated um and you know it's just When he makes arguments, he he doesn't use

01:50:19

He's he's not using logically valid arguments because what he does is he takes a word And then he'll jump off and use an analogy

01:50:28

He'll he's commonly what he does is what's called a fallacy of equivocation

01:50:33

He takes one word that's used here and jumps and uses it here You saw that with seth where he jumped on the word grant and went to I well

01:50:42

I can get a grant at a university That's the fallacy of equivocation. So if you ever hear people do that And and you'll see this in a lot of different areas folks where you're going to see people that they'll find a word and For example, maybe you've heard uh theonomists that will use the argument

01:50:59

Will you believe in in in god's law? Don't you? Yes, you know god's law is good.

01:51:04

Then you're a theonomist. We'll see god's law which is theonomy Is different than the theological system that goes by the same name.

01:51:12

Those are two separate things They just use the same name people do that a lot and they they'll jump off and to say we'll see

01:51:19

You have this word here. Well the same word here I I was recently on a podcast where we were talking about slavery when people talk about slavery in the bible

01:51:28

What do they do they interject? african slave trade And not deal with the slavery that was actually in the bible, right two totally different types of slavery

01:51:38

This is what you end up having with with with people is you'll you'll see that a lot with people where they might cling on to something like that and and I think you you

01:51:49

You saw that tonight, I know seth would disagree um, but You saw where he was where i'm saying, you know things like grant and he's he's saying well you have to believe

01:52:01

And then he's saying that i'm saying there is no belief but see I don't believe that there's no belief I believe that god works through the human being

01:52:10

In such a way That he regenerates us our belief is at the same exact time.

01:52:17

There is no separation I I think logically we get into the problems

01:52:22

Logically what we're dealing with when people talk of the the order salutis the order of salvation

01:52:27

The reason I don't speak in those terms is because People will often talk logically and have a problem where the jump is from logical to theological to chronological and There is not a chronological ordering in my mind to these things and that's what systemizes these passages

01:52:47

How do you how do you take all these passages that talk about us being chosen before the foundation of the world?

01:52:55

the whole point of that is there is there A point in time for god where there was a before the foundational world.

01:53:00

No because he's he's eternal So why would he speak about this? He's trying to emphasize he's doing baby talk to us

01:53:07

He's trying to emphasize that we had nothing to do with our salvation. He did he made this choice long ago He doesn't force it

01:53:14

The idea that because god makes a choice that he's forcing it Is the issue and yet when

01:53:23

I come to the scripture You saw that over and over again the scripture i'm using this exact same analogy

01:53:30

God made a choice in the words that would be written in scripture and yet that wasn't forced

01:53:37

So there there that doesn't have to be that there's this As he was saying, uh, he kept saying there was a logical contradiction

01:53:46

If if it's a logical contradiction, then it applies to every area because that's logic logic doesn't isn't, you know

01:53:52

For this situation different than that situation So the if god can work through a human being in such a way that the things god decided

01:54:02

Is what humans will write down what they're going to believe then he can do that i'm applying the same doctrine in both

01:54:11

Yeah, it seemed like it seemed like Now maybe this is an oversimplification But it seemed like from his paradigm.

01:54:19

He was locked into a certain course Of of reasoning whereas I look at the saving faith that the bible talks about and scripture tells me is

01:54:30

Granted by god who also claims to be the author and finisher of that very same faith uh

01:54:39

When you get outside of this idea that somehow that depends on your choice

01:54:45

When you understand it to be something he authors and he finishes And it is the very thing by which our salvation

01:54:53

Is granted to us The choice becomes irrelevant Yeah I I think his kindness to us should be something we we joyfully, uh, uh

01:55:05

You know celebrate Not try to interject well, you know, you're not the boss of me god

01:55:10

You can't make me choose that that that's silly and it's it's it's from that paradigm.

01:55:16

I think Uh, if he remains in that paradigm, he might not be able to reach that view Yeah, I I think that a lot of times, you know, one of the first things

01:55:28

Uh that we have to do when we come to scripture One of the first things I teach people when it comes to hermeneutics

01:55:34

Is that we have to first recognize that we have presuppositions Every single one of us comes to scripture with our presuppositions

01:55:42

Our presuppositions could be wrong. The scripture cannot be Okay There have been times

01:55:49

For example, the the passage that I focused a lot of time on Is the philippians 129 why?

01:55:57

because when I was You know, the the thing is when I was preaching through philippians I was in seth's camp

01:56:04

I was arguing as seth did until that passage Why because as I preached through that entire book and i'm working through the greek in that book

01:56:13

I realized that that passage says that god grants belief I used to argue that we had we believe first why because I I know what

01:56:21

I experienced and this is the thing for many Where the where the trouble is we all? Experienced that we chose god.

01:56:30

That's what is our experience But for some i'm not saying this is the case for seth,

01:56:36

I don't know but for some It's that experience that becomes the authority over scripture.

01:56:43

And so they read their experience into scripture And so what ends up happening then is you end up in a case where what is happening is that people are

01:56:55

Not looking what scripture actually says Because they well, this is my experience, right?

01:57:00

You know charlie you you I know you and I've talked about this at times But people do this when it comes to the gifts, right?

01:57:07

You you have the charismatics. They go Well, I i've experienced speaking in tongues. Therefore it's it's right Okay, so anthony's on camera

01:57:15

Not okay. Do you want to okay? So, how are you good? Uh, we're about to close up and anthony just comes in at the end because he wants to go into anthony time

01:57:26

Which is over the two hour mark the best for the last, right? Yeah That's right

01:57:32

I know you're down at the aig women's conference. So i'm glad that you finally recognize where you belong at a women's conference

01:57:41

Yeah, yeah, did you bring your man purse there No, I don't carry that anymore No No, we're actually just my wife's not even going to the uh, to the uh,

01:57:52

Uh conference. We're just going to come to the creation museum and art encounter see justin while we're down here So yeah, well,

01:57:58

I I appreciate you taking care of him. So that's why i'm not there for it. So Yeah, so nice job on the debate tonight or whatever you call it discussion.

01:58:07

I don't know but uh Yeah, it's you know the doctrine superintendent andrew

01:58:12

I will say this Um when you when I learned that for the first time from you, I don't know four five six years ago

01:58:18

It a bunch of light bulbs went off and I use it all the time um to try to explain things to people

01:58:24

And uh, you just wish that they would just just get that and uh And it would open up their eyes too just so much

01:58:33

But you know, I will say this too, you know, I know you and I have discussed this a lot in terms of of the

01:58:40

What people call the ordo salutis right that where they have they try to put a timeline to things, you know

01:58:45

I've discussed this we're like no Logically, it happens. Boom, right? It's an instantaneous thing and people try to separate these individual pieces out

01:58:54

And I think that's what muddies them up in terms of their understanding of everything In fact,

01:59:00

I think in my book. What do we believe I lay out several different things all these things that happen

01:59:06

Instantaneous that that you you really can't separate the time wise we logically You know, and this is the problem logically

01:59:14

We we have to look at this and so for Seth's case He's looking at this logically that he knows he experienced his belief and he thinks that the belief brings about the regeneration

01:59:23

Theologically, we'd see that the that god has to be the actor first See if god's not the actor

01:59:30

And this is what concerns me with the synergist Synergist who believes that it's man and god working together.

01:59:36

Then god doesn't get all the credit Okay, then it's to look at what

01:59:41

I did I chose I believed The reason I have a hard an issue with that a hard time with that is

01:59:49

This is what I see over and over with every false religion It's it's man working his way.

01:59:55

It's man doing something man always wants to lift himself up And here we're saying it's man and god working together at this

02:00:03

And like he's saying well god set this up But I don't know any passage and he didn't give a passage where it says that god set this up God does say that we are weak to believe

02:00:15

You see, but he set up a false A false dilemma argument where he's saying it has to be this it has to be this way

02:00:26

And yet that's not what we were arguing at all We we never I never argued

02:00:32

That belief is not part of it and yet throughout the almost two hours. You heard him saying over and over again

02:00:39

That I don't believe so you're saying you don't believe in belief And yet I never did said that No, he assumed that right away, yeah

02:00:50

He inserted it And that's the thing. Um, anthony, I saw your lips moving, but I didn't know if you were talking to someone in the room

02:00:57

I was talking. Yes talking to you real quick. I you know, I will say this too. It is interesting You know as I always have to make sure we go back to genesis on everything

02:01:07

Of course we do. I think we do right early on just I know I I did hear are we we listened to most of the show

02:01:14

We're on the road for the last hour and 40 minutes. So we listened to most your show, but You know, isn't this the problem that happened in the garden as well?

02:01:22

He's wanting to be like god And which would put you on the same plane or the same the same power as uh as god essentially

02:01:33

Which is uh exactly what the sinner just wants to do but here's the thing for folks and we'll wrap up With this is the fact that what you saw was he came in with a belief system of what it was

02:01:45

I believed even though it's not what I believed uh With an idea that this is logically can only be this way

02:01:52

And yet I gave him the the idea of how of the doctrine of inspiration And now he backed away from that.

02:01:59

It's only it can only be this way type of thing Okay, so what do you what do you see that there's some things

02:02:04

I think he hasn't fully thought through in his theology Like all of us

02:02:10

Right. He's he I don't I don't know his age, but he seems younger uh

02:02:15

You know, we we we continue to study. He's someone who said he wants to study truth If he keeps studying

02:02:22

I think he's gonna he's gonna change his view over time If he keeps listening to guys like late and flowers, maybe not but you know

02:02:30

But the thing I want you to see is he came in With a belief of what it was I believed

02:02:37

Even though I corrected him multiple times And then you saw that he set up and said this is illogical and yet I give another scenario where he says it is logical

02:02:46

And then he was like, oh, no, they're different, but they're the same exact argument Um, then you saw that he he made a claim.

02:02:53

What was the basis? Well the whole basis and this is actually the basis that that you know, uh

02:02:59

Early on with with augustine, you know the big debate You know, um with pelagius was this issue that how could god command us to do something?

02:03:11

That we don't have the ability to do And the answer is

02:03:17

You know, he said well god can't do that and so I just asked him, you know Be holy as god is holy

02:03:24

And what did he do? I mean, this is the this was the most disappointing part of the whole debate Was when he was faced with something that shows that his his belief was wrong

02:03:36

He just qualifies it well for a second You see there's nowhere in the scripture where it says be holy as I am holy for a second

02:03:45

Right It says be holy as I am holy over and over again Dozens of times through through leviticus to be holy

02:03:54

That is commanded and yet we can't do that. That should have been a time where he goes

02:04:00

You know what? This is an underpinning to my whole system And here's here's a passage of scripture that shows that my system is wrong.

02:04:09

He should have said my system's wrong There when I teach and folks my encouragement to you is go to strivingfraternity .org

02:04:18

And look at our academy or just go to strivingfraternityacademy .org and you'll see our class on biblical hermeneutics

02:04:26

That's 20 lessons. It will teach you how to enter It will give you the the what you need the tools you need on how to interpret the scriptures

02:04:35

So that you you can recognize it One of the things you'll hear me in that class say over and over is there's two ways to interpret

02:04:42

You're either going to follow the rules or you're going to let your your Either your personal experience or your theology or something else interpret scripture

02:04:52

Unfortunately, what seth did was let his theological system interpret scripture He's reading that in and so he's taking the passages and and folks.

02:05:01

I just read the passages. That's all I was doing I wasn't even interpreting them and he's he's having to add in well, that's in christ means belief at that when we believed

02:05:12

And so he's he's he's having to add that in because the plain reading of the text. I think he recognized

02:05:18

That doesn't fit with what he's saying. And so he's got to change Give words meanings to to fit that in that's reading into the scripture your theology.

02:05:28

Don't do that What we want to do is read out of the scriptures our theology can be wrong

02:05:35

In fact, you know charlie, I know you do a lot of work with karm. Matt slick Matt is a good friend of mine.

02:05:41

We both You know One of the reasons people always ask us to debate is because of the fact that both of us know

02:05:48

That we are wrong in our theology somewhere. We don't know where i'm not even a calvinist

02:05:53

Yeah, I don't use the term. I've never pretended to be But the thing is every one of us is wrong somewhere

02:06:01

We don't know where if if we're honest and we knew where we would change it. Okay but We we're going to be as I think as faithful we should be as faithful to what we do study

02:06:14

And and always be looking to say do I need to change my theology? There's been things in my theology that i've changed over over the year

02:06:20

Oh, some of my presuppositions have been overturned by scripture Some of it was joyful and some of it wasn't comfortable because I had to reassess a lot of things when

02:06:30

I when I saw It overturned Well, yeah, I mean the one thing you never want to do is, you know overturn son

02:06:37

I have to admit that matt is right um But you you know, I I don't know in in the matt's matt slicks radio show on the after show there

02:06:45

Uh, you know, I think you were still in there when he he he bragged about the fact that he actually bought me dinner

02:06:50

I know anthony loves the you know that that when we bring that up that matt finally got me

02:06:55

He's gonna celebrate that for years. Oh, and he he should he should because he's gotten so much grief for years

02:07:02

I mean, he's got nine years of grief Uh, and I actually called up his show so he could give me some of the grief back

02:07:08

I you know, i'll i'll eat humble pie when he finally pulled it off but um But uh,

02:07:14

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02:07:34

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02:08:23

We'll be back next week Uh, I don't know anthony do we have something scheduled for next week?

02:08:29

At this point we do not. Okay, so open I I may see if seth wants to come back in Uh, seth and I had a other disagreement.

02:08:38

He's a very much of an evidentialist in his in his Apologetics, I would be presuppositional

02:08:44

So it might be a good one to to have if he wants to come back in i'm going to invite him in to see If he wants to come back and and discuss that So maybe we'll do that.

02:08:53

We um That would be nice if he did return. Yes. Yeah, I I thought I know the canadian atheist wants to come back on So we'll have to see if he if we'll have him back in sometime soon