April 24, 2018 Show with Jim Osman AND Justin Peters on “Selling the Stairway to Heaven: Critiquing the Claims of Heaven Tourists”

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania.

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This is Chris Arntz and your host of iron sharpens iron radio.

Wishing you all a happy Tuesday.

On this 24th day of April 2018 I'm delighted to have a returning

guest today to discuss a very fascinating topic.

Jim Osmond he's pastor and preaching elder of Kootenai Community Church in

Kootenai, Idaho, and we're going to be discussing a very controversial book.

He has written.

I know that all of you listening must be familiar with the fact that those who have reported

visiting heaven After dying and then being brought back to life in some

fashion by physicians and nurses and so on and these books making their way

to.

To.

These these stories I should say making their way to books and even to major motion pictures.

Well, our guest today Jim Osmond has written a book selling the stairway to heaven critiquing the claims of

heaven.

Tourists.

And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to iron sharpens.

I'm radio Jim Osmond.

And we have a surprise co -host with us today.

We have Justin Peters of Justin Peters ministries and he happens to be a member of

Kootenai Community Church in Idaho under the pastorate of Jim Osmond and

it's great to have you co -hosting the program with me today.

Justin Peters be with you and an honor to

be.

And in fact, yes.

I think this is the first I'm discovering that Jim has a very good sense of humor.

Yes, and by the way, I.

You're breaking up there Justin, I'm sorry.

Yes, and if you both could make sure that when you're speaking that you speak directly into the mouthpiece of whatever phone

you're using or.

Or what have you.

The.

By the way, am I pronouncing Kootenai Community Church correctly?

Hello, I think I've lost my guests already or both of you there.

And Jim are you can you hear me now?

Yeah, you're I can hear you now.

Yes, you scared me there for a second.

Okay, great.

Has been a while since we've hasn't been that long but it's been long enough for me to forget.

Pronouncing it correctly.

Well before we go into this subject Selling the stairway to heaven critiquing the claims of heaven

tourists, which is a great way of phrasing that please remind our listeners

or inform our listeners for the first time.

For those of My audience.

For those in my audience who did not hear your previous interview.

Tell us about Kootenai Community Church.

Kootenai Community Church is a set in rural North

Idaho.

It's a beautiful area.

US Canadian border.

Elders.

I'm the primary preaching elder though.

All four of our elders are involved in teaching.

We're a conservative church reformed in our soteriology, though not in our eschatology and we

believe and are committed to the exposition of scripture and the Shepherding of the Saints who make this church their

home.

And when you say you're not reformed in regard to your eschatology.

Are you dispensationalist or are you historic pre -mill or what?

Where would you be in that?

Okay, and Justin Peters remind our listeners or inform them for the first time if they're just

discovering you.

What Justin Peters ministries is all about?

My

only

interest.

Great.

Well, I know that your website is Justin Peters org, correct?

Yeah, so I'm urging all of you to look that up and also look up previous Interviews that

I've had with Justin and also look up The last interview I had with Jim Osman on

this program at the iron sharpens iron radio website archive for Justin Peters.

Just type in in the search engine of the Archive where it says past shows

podcast type in Justin Peters and For Jim Osmond,

obviously you could do the same with his name Jim Osmond Osman or just type in his

last name Osman.

It will end his previous interview will come up but Jim.

As I said in the introduction There have been more and more

People it seems coming forward.

I cannot read their minds or know their hearts as to know their motivations for doing this or

what the source is of their of their claims about

visiting heaven whether they are Something that have been demonically

inspired or whether they are purposefully acts of charlatanism

or What -have -you, but tell us what was the motivation behind you writing the book selling the stairway to

heaven critiquing the claims of heaven tourists.

Well, I recount 90 minutes in heaven sort of made its debut in the

Christian scene and it was all the rage.

And it was shortly after I threw the Christian community in our area

and and I looked at the book and I never read it never really gave it any any thought it

was a passing fad that would probably eventually pass and then of course Follow -up to that was

all of the products that came out it became Became more than a passing fad.

It became quite a popular thing and more and more people were buying the book and and then

Colton burpo and Todd burpo's book came out heaven is for real and that seemed to sell almost as many

copies if not more than 90 minutes in heaven and do it at a much quicker pace and

So after heaven was for real was published.

I made it my intention to Simply do a book review of each one of these books just to see if they

comport and so I

start to 90 minutes in.

Heaven and.

Compared to the book and then let it later claims of that he made that opinion and

Teaching about his experience to heaven and then I did the same thing for heaven is for real.

And then I followed that up with another book that came out just just as I was getting ready to Publish this book and put it all into a book.

I'm not sure what that is.

Do you guys know what that is?

Oh.

That's all right, well that's life and things happen.

I just I wanted to make sure we weren't in being invaded by another conference call.

And he was a

Neuroscientist who

had a form of

meningitis

and he could

time and it is an

agnostic

Afterlife and things his book and

including a lot

of

times those

that have been

since he was a neurosurgeon.

He had

this now

that's.

Comparison with the other two.

Yeah, that's utterly fascinating that he would remain an agnostic and yet believe he was in

heaven.

It doesn't even really make sense.

Does it?

Yeah, I know but a lot of you and even

Alexander's with you are completely opposite.

Dennis Prager is not a materialist.

He's and he believes in so

life.

Yeah,

it's.

Yeah, go ahead.

I'm sorry.

Yes, and first of all, let me clarify for our listeners who may have misunderstood you you are referring

to Don Piper with a D as in David not John Piper the

well -known pastor who I believe is retired from the pastorate in Minnesota who although we

disagree with him on some of his views in favor of the charismatic

movement We would not want to confuse him with this Don

Piper.

Yeah, correct.

And if I if I said John Piper, I thought no you didn't I I clearly heard you but.

Right.

I heard you clearly say Don.

I'm just I just wanted to clarify because You know people listening especially when you're on the phone

they may have misunderstood you.

And by the way, I want to remind Justin That Justin Peters you can chime in with a

question any time that you want.

And don't wait for me to ask you for a question.

Just chime in whenever you think the moment is appropriate.

But let me before we get into some of these specific accounts that are claimed of visiting

heaven Do you believe.

And in fact, I'll ask both of you men.

Do either of you believe that it is ever possible?

For a genuine Christian who may die on a

clinical death obviously on an operating table then be revived or resuscitated and

Have some kind of an experience with heaven.

And of course my follow -up question for both of you would actually be Do you believe that?

Temporary visits or visions of hell for an unbeliever are possible and we'll start with you Jim and

then Justin you can follow.

Yeah, well in principle, I'd have to say well for someone to

experience being unconscious or in a in a near -death state.

I think that they're the question but the question is what is causing that experience and how genuine

is it and What should we make of those experiences?

And that is where I think that these books go far afield.

I I usually in this life of the next is a

very thin one and I don't think that I think it's possible for us in spirit

soul or being that we can.

In a moment of death or as we are crossing over into death we can Experience both

time now if we're able to come back and relate any of that that that I don't think.

That I don't think I could say that you can nor would I say that you should ever build any kind of theology or any?

Sort of a ministry or a platform off of such an experience that ultimately that's just an experience and anything

you experience Is not a source of true information and it

and it should be questionable a question to pass.

I would never want to make my experience a test for truth in that regard.

Justin would you add anything to that?

Yeah, I would echo everything you just you know, the I tell people often

you can't exegete an experience.

Lots of people have experiences.

Mormons Muslims Buddhists Tons of pagan people have experiences.

The question is is what is the source?

We do know that Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.

We do demons have we

have to we have to

go back to the offended the judgment.

But you do still.

Yeah, I just wanted to have Justin confirm whether or not he holds out the the

possibility that it could happen.

Chris I would

I would

okay.

And Jim you

were just

about

to say

something.

Okay now for the other side

of eternity what about hell.

I have heard about people who have been revived from a

death experience on an operating table and the frightening visions

that they had or experiences that they had Did seem to be a

key factor in their conversions?

And of course they don't always wind up that way.

There are some lunatic fringe people that make the same claims, but do you think that God could

use? a glimpse of hell before somebody permanently

dies.

Physically that is to in order to awaken them to the truth that they are headed for

Eternal damnation if they don't repent and embrace Christ.

Claims that Jesus took him to hell

and take someone to the very to

save them.

I personally think that that is what you're hearing with these people

and they come back horrified and they're revived and they're horrified.

But what they experienced.

Chris I would say that they have been

brought.

It's appointed man wants to die and then the judgment the judge judgment comes after death

not before not.

Jim Do you have any thoughts on that?

There's nothing about the

experience.

It was then genuinely born -again believer as she's lying on the deathbed.

She got this glow on her face that he was gazing what seemed like past the ceiling and she

started to smile and then she Immediately passed into eternity.

Reacting and passing into in the next isn't

to doubt those.

What I do have reason to doubt is people Who say I went here and I experienced this and so let me teach you

what?

Scripture cannot teach you about these things that that is cause for real genuine doubt.

And that's what I did.

Yes, I not long ago.

I Can't even remember right now where I was hearing these deathbed.

These last words on earth in deathbed experiences.

Where very famous Christians that we would consider biblically sound that we would

Uphold as great heroes of the faith.

Where right before they permanently left this earth?

Where they died physically?

Permanently, they weren't revived or anything.

But their last words seemed to indicate that with some of them that they were seeing a glimpse of heaven or something

like that.

Yeah, I have.

No I have no problem in principle with that.

Now the Apostle Paul's.

Glimpse of heaven that he received does he indicate that he would be the only one

that saw this glimpse that was given this.

This rare opportunity

to

see heaven.

Well, we read about that.

But what I find

number one Paul did not even want to

talk about his experience.

Apostolic authority, but it's

almost like Just kind of a reluctant

authority.

Well, I know a man.

Yeah, he speaks of himself in the third person.

In the third person exactly right and I think that's extremely.

Paul did not and

in the

thing happened 14 years ago at the time of his writing so

14 years had passed and Paul had said nothing about this.

He had written nothing about this and even when he finally did almost reluctantly

bring it up.

He's that this

man hurt.

I'm just

strong

and we're

gonna

have.

Right, and when we come back from our break Jim, I'd like you to go through in summary the major

claims that you address in your book by those who claim that they have.

Experienced a tour of heaven if you will call it that and.

If anybody would like to join us on the air whether you agree with our guests whether you disagree.

Perhaps you have a claim of your own.

Well, send us an email to Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris a RN Z and gmail .com.

Please give us your first name at least your city and state in your country of residence if you live outside the USA.

Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

Let's say you believe.

That you have had some kind of an experience of visiting heaven or hell and you don't want to draw attention to yourself.

You're embarrassed by it perhaps or whatever the case may be.

I can understand you wanting to remain anonymous or perhaps you're Your pastor or your congregation agrees

with these kinds of experiences and you disagree with them.

Or perhaps you're a pastor and your denomination agrees with these kinds of things and you disagree with your denomination or something like that.

We understand that you would want to remain anonymous.

But other than that, please give us your first name at least your city and state in your country of residence.

If you live outside the USA, don't go away.

God willing we'll be right back with Jim Osmond and Justin Peters right after these messages from our

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Welcome back.

This is Chris Arnzen.

If you just tuned us in.

Our guest today is Jim Osmond pastor and preaching elder of Kootenai Community Church in

Kootenai, Idaho.

We are discussing his book selling the stairway to heaven critiquing the claims of heaven that tourists and

with us is Justin Peters who is a Surprise guest co -host

today also interviewing Jim Osmond with me if you'd like to join us on the air with a question.

Our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com and please give us your first name city and state And country of

residence.

If you live outside the USA, we have a listener in Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania who

says in your opinion are these accounts in general?

Largely to be attributed to pure greed or is there demonic activity

at play?

And very interesting question and if you could both of you if you could answer that is we'll start with Jim

Osmond.

Do we have to choose between the old.

Obviously you could say whatever you believe is the truth.

I can't judge John Don Piper's not

John Donne

with

his medical bill

and Todd

Burr small

Methodist shirt.

Amount of money.

I don't think the detail that can be ignored

on the other side of the what I mentioned earlier with even Alexander and his book proof of heaven.

He's not somebody stood

the only

that he held.

Did

he

make

millions

ignored either?

Innovation.

Or at least a good a good motive for deceiving people the way that one of the

effects of these and away from

The next

life.

And well Gordy you have won a free copy of selling the

stairway to heaven.

So, please make sure we have your full mailing address, and I'm sorry Justin if you could.

Oh, no.

No,

you've

got Jesse Duplantis.

We've talked about Don.

I mean watch

this.

There's a lot of these people now.

Financial motivation is a.

Sorry about that.

Yeah, I mean it's true, I mean it's the most bizarre thing.

You wouldn't have it on a cable car.

There was a blonde haired angel.

He says that he saw his own mansion.

It just just what

launches.

P not going to

gain a

big

thing

it

up.

Some

of

them

right

and.

Jim what are the primary stories that you deal with in your book?

In fact, let me before I ask you that or have you answered that?

There was an account and I can't remember which one it was.

I have a feeling it was the burpo account.

But I'm not sure but Phil Johnson who I'm sure you both are very familiar with he is the executive

director of grace to you ministries the media ministry of John MacArthur, and he had some kind of

Communication with the wife or ex -wife of one of these individuals

responsible for writing or Or pushing a child to write these experiences

and the wife or ex -wife was convinced that this was all false.

Do you know which one I'm talking about?

Yeah, yes Chris.

And Thank you, Jim.

The young man of whom you're speaking is Alex malarkey and Alex was in a car

accident with his father when he was about and.

Unfortunate name for somebody trying to convince people of a a very fantastical story.

Yeah.

Long

stories.

Alex got

saved.

Genuinely saved now praise God.

Texture.

Alex.

Yeah, praise God indeed.

Alex is a quadriplegic but the accident left him completely paralyzed

he has to be

Respiratory

unless

God.

And they

were

trying to

get

the truth out

about

this

and

nobody

would

listen,

but

I

have

a

truck.

Yeah, he actually got.

Yeah, in fact, you can inform

them if you'd like that.

They have an open door here on iron sharpens iron radio for an interview.

I don't know how Capable the son is to speak on a

phone or something.

But I can certainly interview the mother if or both of them if they are both able to

and so you can tell.

Yeah, I appreciate that.

Well, if you could.

Jim, what are the major stories that you?

Examine and refute in your book.

Confirming or contradictory there are places he

talks about.

By the way, Jim Jim you're I don't know what what's happening.

But you're very muffled if you could make sure you speak directly into your mouthpiece.

I don't know if that's what's happening.

But Yeah, that's a lot better.

Not having.

Jim you're totally going muffled again.

I don't know what's happening on your end, but can you make.

Right like right now you're perfect.

I didn't think of it.

But later I realized that I didn't did not hear such songs as the old rugged cross of the male start and

and then he says This none of the hymns that filled the air were about Jesus's sacrifice or death.

I heard no sad songs and instinctively knew that there are no sad songs in heaven.

Why would there be all were praises about Christ's reign as King of Kings and our joyful worship of all that?

He has done for us and how wonderful he is.

If you compare that with what Scripture says when John looks upon the scene in heaven he says he heard the

voice of many angels around the throne the living creatures and the elders and the number of them was myriads of Myriads and thousands thousand.

Saying with a loud voice was to be might and honor and glory and blessing.

He makes reference to like the ones we're saying on earth and yet

Bloody sacrificial death as the Lamb of God for the sins of his people

within the book.

It was not heaven.

And in

fact,

it's people.

Yeah, the thing that amazes me is That by the way, Jim you were perfect for the last

a couple of minutes of your your your commentary there.

Okay, so whatever it is you're doing to keep doing.

But.

It's amazing that Roman Catholics and evangelicals Will get

excited about these stories, even though the stories conflict with their own Theologies and

religions.

Make makes absolutely no sense to me.

I know especially a number of Roman Catholics.

Even in.

Catholic media that will Standby and promote and support these

things when in according to their own theology.

These people should be in purgatory.

Doesn't make any sense.

Am I right?

I mean doesn't.

Go ahead.

It will Jim.

We'll start with you and then Justin.

Contradict each other.

Piper for instance, he he endorsed Todd Burpo's book on Colton Burpo's experience

and yet in in Piper's book He says that the the age is not recognized in heaven age

is not a thing in heaven book.

He makes the claim that there are all kinds of kids in heaven and that Jesus sat on Jesus's lap and did his

homework and Jesus helped him do his homework and the Holy Spirit was like a blue fog in Heaven and Jesus had a rainbow -colored horse

and all of this other nonsense.

There's all these claims that one will make that are completely contradicted by the other so

Where does this confusion come from?

It's certainly God who is not the author of it.

His vision of heaven seemed to be his little sister's bedroom.

That's what all these kinds of bizarre girly childlike things that he saw.

Well, we actually have to go to our our midway break right now.

This is a longer than normal break because grace life radio 90 .1 FM in

Lake City, Florida Requires of us a 12 -minute break between our two major segments.

So please be patient with us.

Take this time to not only write down the information you are hearing from our advertisers so that you can patronize them

and Respond to them, but also take this time to write down your own questions.

We have a number of you still waiting With your questions and we'll get to as many of you as

We possibly can.

Time -permitting our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name at least your city and state and your country of residence if you live outside the USA.

Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

Don't go away.

God willing.

We'll be right back with Jim Osman and Justin Peters on selling

the stairway to heaven.

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Paul wrote to the church at Galatia for am I now seeking the approval of man or of God?

Or am I trying to please man.

If I were still trying to please man? I would not be a servant of Christ.

Hi, I'm Mark Lukens pastor of Providence Baptist Church.

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Hi, I'm buzz Taylor frequent co -host with Chris Arnson on iron sharpens iron radio.

I would like to introduce you to my good friends Todd and Patty Jennings at CVB BS.

Which stands for Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service?

Todd and Patty specialize in supplying reformed and Puritan books and Bibles at discount prices that make them

affordable to everyone.

Since.

1987 the family -owned and operated book service has sought to bring you the best available Christian books and Bibles

at the best possible prices.

Unlike other book sites.

They make no effort to provide every book that is available because frankly Much of what is being printed is not

worth your time.

That means you can get to the good stuff faster.

It also means that you don't have to worry about being assaulted by the pornographic Heretical and

otherwise faith insulting material promoted by the secular book vendors.

Their website is CVB BS comm.

Browse the pages at ease shop at your leisure and purchase with confidence.

As Todd and Patty work in service to you the church and to Christ.

That's Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service at CVB BS comm.

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Let Todd and Patty know that you heard about them on iron sharpens iron radio.

And you can call CVB BS comm at their toll -free number eight hundred six five six zero two three

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If you do you will not only get free shipping on a $50 or more purchase.

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They'll get it absolutely free if you purchase $50 or more worth of merchandise and mention Chris Arnzen

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What.

Justin Peters was just talking about in regard to life way and their reluctance

to initially stop selling The books that were making them money with all kinds of

bizarre and heretical Claims in regard to visits to heaven.

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But we have a few more announcements to make before we return to our guest today Jim Osman

and my Co -host my special co -host today Justin Peters.

First of all, we have coming up next weekend.

Actually, what am I saying next weekend?

It's this weekend this weekend Friday Saturday and Sunday.

The spirit of the age and the age of the spirit is the theme at the Philadelphia Conference on Reform

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If you would like to register for this event go to Alliance net org.

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That's Chris Arnzen at gmail .com and That's also the mailing the email address where you can send in a

question to our guests Jim Osmond and we are addressing his book

selling the stairway to heaven and we also have a surprise co -host today

Justin Peters and That email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

If you could before we go into any more listener questions.

Jim Osmond.

If you could just continue with giving an outline of any of the other major

Accounts that you address and seek to expose in your book.

Yeah, one of the I think there are two issues that we should address real quick and one of them

is the lack of gospel presentation in these accounts and The second is the way in which such accounts

serve to undermine a belief in and a practice of on the sufficiency of Scripture.

When it comes to the gospel accounts and the lack of clear gospel presentation in the books.

You would think that having spent 90 minutes in heaven that Don Piper would Want to

make the way to heaven absolutely clear and yet about the clue that the closest thing to any

kind of a gospel Presentation that he has in the entire book is on page 196 where he says.

Quote.

Going to heaven that January morning wasn't my choice.

The only choice in all of this is that one day I turned to Jesus Christ and accepted him as my Savior.

Unworthy as I am he allowed me to go to heaven and I know the next time I go there.

I'll stay close quote.

That's the closest thing to the gospel that that Don Piper gets to in his book.

He says earlier in his book on page 129, he said.

I want as many.

Quote.

I want as many people as possible to go to heaven.

I've always believed Christian theology that declares heaven is real and a place for God's people since my own experience

Of having been there. I felt ake the way absolutely clear.

Not only do I want people to go to heaven I now feel an urgency about helping them open their lives so they can be

assured.

That's where they'll go when they die.

Close quote.

Just his whole way of thinking that he's presenting the gospel with that type of language.

Open their lives.

So they'll be assured that that's where they go when they die and asking Jesus into his heart and accepting him as a Savior.

I take issue with the language itself, but not just that but you would think that somebody who had seen

heaven and spent 90 minutes There and was convinced that in his own words He needed to make the way

abstain that he would make it clear.

But in the book there's of the nature of sin or its ravages upon humanity or how we are

lost or under the wrath of God.

We're deserving of eternal torment or the substitutionary nature of Christ on the cross.

And what he did there and atoning for the sins of his people or the responsibility of men to repent and to believe this

gospel.

And what that will bring none of that is presented in his book.

And so it is is no better

Purple uses the same kind of language about asking Jesus into your heart.

And thinks that that is a clear demonstration of exactly what the gospel is.

So these books.

They make no Explanation of the gospel at all and I can only surmise that if

God were behind these Visitations if it were actually God that was allowing these men to see these things and what

something akin to the gospel fervency of the Apostle Paul.

Amen.

Justin you had something to say.

If.

Yeah, Chris just to tag on to what Jim said I I find that one of I mean, there's so many reasons

to reject these these claims logical theological.

But that that really is the one of the primary ones.

Yeah, I mean that is just proof positive that they didn't go if you know.

You can read these books and you can hear you can.

Well,

we do have

some

listener questions.

We have BB and Cumberland County, Pennsylvania who asks, how do you respond to

somebody who says?

Why are you bothering to complain about these types of books and movies if they get people

to start?

Thinking seriously about the afterlife in heaven and The fact that it

is a real place.

Isn't there more good done than harm through these stories being spread?

Yeah.

I think that'd be a good opportunity to introduce the real harm that is done by stories like that and that is that it undermines a

belief in and a practice really ultimately our authority

for the reality of heaven comes back to the Word of God itself to my

type of criticism of these accounts.

Really comes back to the belief that well scripture is not sufficient.

And so we need these accounts to to do that to convince people of the reality of heaven and and that is in fact

exactly what Piper suggests in in the later part of this book as he talks about all the places that he goes to speak and

Tell people about heaven and other people who come up to him and thank him for his story.

One theme that weaves its way through all of those accounts is the these people doubting and

Fascinating over whether or not scripture is true and whether I haven't really is for real and then they

hear pie beef and say oh Thank goodness, I finally finally I can

know for sure real because Don Piper went and saw it.

And he says on page 129 of his book changed many things about the way.

I look at life.

I've changed the way I do funerals now.

I can speak authoritatively about heaven from first.

I can speak authoritatively about heaven.

But most significantly not because I have had a first all that

I need to know about heaven.

And so we are fools to think that in the lives

of the Word of God cannot accomplish in their lives and their souls.

These books are all they do serve to do is undermine people's belief in the authority and the sufficiency of

scripture because these men continually point back to themselves as A resource by which we can

know that the testimony and it's right and it's sure.

Yes, I think subtle and most horrific danger that these accounts and these books present to

the body of Christ.

Amen.

I mean we walk down a very dangerous road when we start being

pragmatic about using or taking advantage of falsehood or

things from the dark side if you will just because we may see some things that appear to

be a Benefit in some way.

Like for instance, I know that people have criticized me when I have publicly

Critiqued and Opposed certain revival meetings in evangelistic crusades

where false professors are on the podium and People

will say well, you know people are coming to Christ.

What what's the big deal?

You're making such a big deal about it.

In fact, the people who follow those false teachers are more likely going to be in the audience and then my response has

been yeah.

But they're also more likely to continue following what the false teacher is teaching if they're on the podium there.

Am I right?

Yeah.

Yeah, so it's very dangerous to be pragmatic is basically what I'm saying.

We have it we have a listener.

By the way, BB.

I forgot to mention BB you have won a free copy of selling the stairway to heaven critiquing the claims of heaven tourists.

By Jim Osmond, so please make sure we have your full mailing address and we'll have CVB BS comm

ship that book out to you.

We have Arnie in Perry County, Pennsylvania.

Who asks a question That is relevant to something that I just found out

from our co -host Justin Peters.

Arnie in Perry County says.

Have either of you sought out and confronted any of these people making these

fantastic claims about the afterlife.

To confront them to their face that they are teaching a lie.

And I believe Justin you have actually had that experience with one of these

individuals if you could explain.

Yes, Chris, I have and I get that question

in my seminar largely

on occasion

up me several

years ago when

Kathy Kathy

now We had.

I had read his presentation

and when

it was I

said, mr Parker and

I said you said that you and

so I actually

had the I

did not see

good night.

You say you didn't see God.

Not only did you not say you don't have indicated where it was and He was

clearly caught off guard by Wow and kind of stumbled around for a minute.

He said well, well.

You know, I'm not the only one who was writing this book.

He gave his

name

to say that

you amazing claim that you said you saw God but in your

he said well I'm

telling you

right now that

amen

what we're gonna

go to our

final break right now.

It's gonna be much briefer than the others.

And if you'd like to join us on the air, our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris ar n ze n at gmail .com.

As always, please give us your first name your city and state in your country of residence If you live outside the USA and only remain

anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

And by the way.

Arnie in Perry County you've also won a free copy of the book that we are discussing selling

the stairway to heaven Critiquing the claims of heaven Taurus, please.

Make sure we have your full mailing address there in Perry and Perry County, Pennsylvania.

And don't go away.

God willing.

We'll be right back after these messages.

Hi, I'm buzz Taylor frequent co -host with Chris Arnzen on iron sharpens iron radio.

I would like to introduce you to my good friends Todd and Patty Jennings at CVB BS.

Which stands for Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service?

Todd and Patty specialized in supplying reformed in Puritan books and Bibles at discount prices that make them

affordable to everyone.

Since.

1987 the family -owned and operated book service has sought to bring you the best available Christian books and Bibles

at the best possible prices.

Unlike other book sites.

They make no effort to provide every book that is available because frankly Much of what is being printed is not

worth your time.

That means you can get to the good stuff faster.

It also means that you don't have to worry about being assaulted by the pornographic Heretical and

otherwise faith insulting material promoted by the secular book vendors.

Their website is CVB BS comm.

Browse the pages at ease shop at your leisure and purchase with Confidence as Todd and Patty work

in service to you the church and to Christ.

That's Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service at CV BBS comm.

That's CV BBS comm.

Let Todd and Patty know that you heard about them on iron sharpens iron radio.

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pastor's Study.

Well, we are now back to our final half hour Of our discussion with Jim

Osman who is a pastor and preaching elder of Kootenai Community Church in Kootenai

Idaho we are discussing his book selling the stairway to heaven critiquing the claims of heaven Taurus

and my co -host today on the phone is Justin

Peters who happens to be a member of Kootenai Community Church in Kootenai, Idaho and by the

way, I'd like you all to mark your calendars for this Monday because we have

a Biblically sound book a biblically faithful and truthful book on heaven

Written by a Reformed Baptist pastor.

Will I make it to heaven a new look at the perseverance of the Saints?

Written by Daniel Deeds who is our guest this Monday God willing April 30th 4 to

6 p .m. Eastern Time.

So mark your calendars for that interview on will I make it to heaven by Daniel

Deeds quite a providential thing that we Arrange that interview very close to this one on

the false accounts of Those who claim to have visited heaven and Justin

Peters.

Do you have a question for Jim Osman?

I do Jim.

I run into a

lot

of people

of a friend

or a family.

That's true.

Excellent.

Excellent question.

Out of the gate, I would turn to 2nd Peter chapter 1 where Peter refers to one of his own

experiences and in that context he's describing how

his presentation of the gospel is his relation.

A Relating of things pertaining to Christ is not based upon Experiences

it's not based upon Cleverly devised fables.

He says in 2nd Peter 1 16.

We did not follow cleverly devised fables tales when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ

but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty.

And then Peter goes on to describe the mountaintop experience the

Transfiguration beginning at verse 17.

He says.

For when we received honor and glory from God the Father.

Such an utterance as this was made to him by the majestic glory.

This is my beloved son with whom I'm well pleased and he's referring there to what happened in Matthew chapter 17.

And Peter says.

And we ourselves heard this utterance made from heaven when we were with him on the Holy Mountain Numbers 19 so we

have the prophetic word made more sure and of course more sure than what more reliable or true more More

test worthy than what his own experience.

So he says I'm not relating to you.

Some fable passed on to me by other men.

I was an eyewitness of these things when I had this experience but even more significant than my experience is the prophetic

Word of God and and he there would be referring to the Old Testament scriptures as.

The.

Reliable sure word that his readers.

He says would do well to pay attention to as a lamp shining in a dark place.

Until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts.

And then he goes on to talk about the scriptures being inspired and not being a matter of one's own interpretation.

But men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.

So there he points his readers to not his own experience which he could have related.

He could have he could have just told of all the things he experienced and told people there look to me.

I can now speak with authority because I'm a first -hand witness of these things as Piper does in his book and As Todd Burpo

suggests is true of his accounts as well.

But Peter doesn't do that.

He points his readers back to scripture and says more reliable than my experience is the Word of God.

It's more sure and you do well to take heed to it.

Because it is inspired and men of God moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.

So that that points people away from personal experience as a divine test for truth as a as a source of

truth and points them What is revealed in Scripture.

And Jesus did the same thing in Luke chapter 16 when he says if they don't if they don't give heed To Moses and the

prophets then they're not going to listen to you.

They have Moses and the prophets let them let them respond to that let them let that convince them.

And one of the assumptions behind Burpo's

books

and

orgy above scripture say

they're intending to do

but that is exactly how they present their.

It's not the base our theology on experiences.

But upon the Word of God and that last objection that you you were

to do a lot of good in getting people to.

No issues.

I would say if they will not listen to Moses and the prophets.

They're not going to listen to Don Piper and Colton Burpo.

Amen, and they ought not to.

Amen.

And by the way to clarify our listener BB was not saying that she believed that she was asking how to

respond to people that claim that.

That exactly I understand that and.

Yeah, this is excellent stuff because and I'll have you both respond to this.

The people.

Anybody who is basing their faith their belief their theology, especially

salvifically on supernatural experience is.

Is.

Really walking on very thin ice.

I mean I have had so many conversations To give you an example with

Roman Catholics, for instance who will swear that the apparitions

of Mary at Fatima and other places are true.

Just because the apparition Has said good things about Jesus

has told people to follow Jesus people's lives have been changed because of the

apparition.

Thousands of people Simultaneously seeing apparently or allegedly

the apparition.

And you could go on and on and which is it would what is very interesting is that?

Even Roman Catholic theologians, especially the more conservative and traditionalist ones

while embracing the apparition of Fatima totally reject as Demonic or

false the upper apparitions at major Gorya it's it's it's

more the more moderate to liberal Catholics that embrace major Gorya, but

Isn't this true that we?

Regardless of what theology we embrace when we are basing something on a supernatural experience.

It is very dangerous.

And if you could both answer that Jim if you could start.

Yeah, those in that case the experience ends up confirming a false religion a Christian

cult as it were that that destroys the doctrine of justification by faith and exalts man's

righteousness and and man's works as sufficient for salvation, so there you have

a the demons have adequate reason to deceive people into thinking that such adoration of those

relics those images and those apparitions is Is worth people's time?

Because it ends up distracting them away from the true Christ and the true Jesus.

And the third book that I review in that in The book that I wrote even Alexander's book proof of heaven his

experience ends up being a confirmation of an Eastern mystic kind of Gnostic

quasi -materialistic worldview that that he holds to and so if experiences are a validate

truth.

And if that's what we're gonna say is in the case with Piper and with Burpo.

Then what about even Alexander's experience?

He had a very legitimate experience and most Christians will say well no, no, we reject even Alexander because he was a

materialist and he presents a very new age and Quasi -eastern view of God and the

afterlife there.

But we'll embrace Piper and Burpo and I would say on what grounds do you embrace the one and reject the other?

If experience is the test of truth, then why do you not embrace?

Even Alexander's experience and the only answer to that ends up being well Piper and Burpo are part of our tribe.

You know, they name the same name that we do and they're really promoting our God.

So we're going to embrace their experiences, but not even Alexander's experience is not the experience of the people who visit Fatima, etc

so it is.

It's very hypocritical.

It's very inconsistent and it just once again points back to the lack of biblical understanding that people have

that.

That's another example of the ends justify the means theology where people will say

Well, who really cares if that's real or not as long as people are changing their lives and following Jesus

and all that.

But that is not true at all.

I.

Attended a Don Piper lecture and I heard him talk about heaven.

I gave my heart to Jesus at the end of it.

Okay.

Okay.

So what what Jesus did you give your heart to and what gospel message did you respond to it?

I hope that at least there was a gospel message clearer than what he presents in the book and and if it wasn't then I have no

Confidence at all that and you were actually soundly saved as a result of anything Piper said right.

And even if somebody was truly saved.

By embracing Christ at something like that that doesn't.

That doesn't put a seal of approval on the Speaker.

Like for instance, I know people.

In fact, I interviewed it.

I interviewed at least one a number of years ago.

Who was led to the biblical Christ in the biblical gospel through the Jehovah's Witnesses?

Not because they embraced what the Jehovah's Witnesses were teaching him.

But they started reading the Bible as a result of the visits from the Jehovah's Witness.

So just because that person came to Christ and was saved does not mean we legitimize the

Jehovah's Witnesses.

No people get people get saved and even soundly saved in horrible churches from horrible messages

Where God might save somebody in spite of the message that is preached or right the church that preaches it.

But that is no that is no Support for endorsement of Unbiblical methods

just because God might choose to do something in spite of them.

While a person happens to be exposed to them We should still be testing the movement or the source itself with

Scripture.

We have John and Bangor Maine who asks can either of you cite from history any?

Notable figure especially a notable figure that is viewed today by theologically

sound People as someone to read and study from who had an

experience of the afterlife such as seeing either heaven or hell and living to tell the

tale.

A Jim if you could start or either

one of you can start.

I'm just pausing because I'm racking my brain to think of one.

I I can't think of one off the top of my head.

Justin do you know of any?

Important.

No, Chris.

No, I can't either off the top converse of that I can think of.

Many of them claim to have

period we

want to drive home the what we're calling people's.

But yes,

all of these I

can do

must be

just like Jim John.

Please give us your full mailing address there and bang remain and we'll have CV bbs .com ship you

out a free copy of selling the stairway to heaven.

Critiquing the claims of heaven tourists by our guest Jim Osman.

We have a related question.

Here we have Christian in Suffolk County, New York who

asks.

Have there been frequent accounts in the past? prior to the 20th century of

people making these claims or are the preponderance of them made in

recent years.

He's basically asking about anybody regardless of their theological makeup.

I mean, was this a frequent thing throughout history where people would make these claims?

I don't remember.

I don't know from history of a high concentration of these claims.

I mean that it seems like such claims are endemic to the charismatic movement the new apostolic Reformation

Word of Faith movement.

Such claims seem to be pretty symptomatic of what goes on in those circles.

But and and that of course is a more recent phenomenon, but from church history again I don't know of

anybody.

I don't know of a time in the history of the church that I'm aware of where you had This kind of a

mass promotion of these kinds of claims.

And especially embraced within the church.

I'm sure there are cultic groups within church history where These people who preach a different gospel openly and a

different Jesus openly Also have have these claims of visions like Joseph Smith that Justin just

referenced but in terms of within the church and being accepted by Broad swath of what would

we would normally consider to be Orthodox Christians and With sound denominations the Baptist denomination and Lifeway

books, etc.

I don't.

I don't know of any other concentration of such an acceptance of it in church history.

No, and I would just add to that nothing.

Certainly nothing concentrated who

claimed to

receive talking about you.

And for example, you see this with the Montanists.

You see

charismatic movement.

Amy

simple Macpherson go to

heaven.

Well, I want

to

make sure

Jim that

you don't

let

any.

Stone remain unturned before we go Off the air here if you could bring up anything else

that you want to make sure our listeners are aware of.

Regarding your book selling the stairway to heaven critiquing the claims of heaven tourists.

One of the thing that I would I would make reference to is that In Don Piper's book and I'm trying to be

I'm trying to be fair here with Don Piper and what he says In his book he

Very much.

I should say my critique of his book.

One of the things I try and point out is I don't know there.

We cannot say that what he said what he experienced was true or genuine.

I don't believe that it was and so then one of the questions that My critics would bring up

is if he didn't experience the real heaven, then how do you explain his experience and

The short answer to that is I don't need to explain his experience.

Although I do think that there are Things ways to explain this experience.

I don't think that we can rule out Demonic deception that he had a genuine experience where demons deceived

him and we he was open up to such deception and that he had Experience in the in the

subconscious realm of his mind where he thought he saw things and heard things and demons Had

some influence in that.

I think that that's a possibility.

I think it's also a possibility that his particular experience was Generated by the heavy doses of

painkillers and drugs that he was on after his accident.

And he mentioned that in his book the number of medications that he was on just it was almost mind

-numbing In its intensity because of the tremendous amount of pain that he was in That could

that his experience could be the result of just the medications and that the tricks that were being played with his mind and Him

projecting on to those experiences what he wanted or what he thought he should get in heaven and what he expects in heaven.

Those are those are possible explanations for his experience with with Colton burpo it could be that you have a four -year -old boy who's

making stuff up and Todd burpo is going along with it and embracing it and not questioning it

and Recording it down as if it's actual experience of his four -year -old boy in heaven.

Even Alexander, I think that his experience could be demonic exception demonic deception.

It could also be the product of the meningitis that he had the illness and the drugs that they were using in his coma.

There are all kinds of explanations for these various Experiences and tales and I

think it is wrong for Christians just to assume out of the gate That if they have that experience and it and

it talks about God in Jesus.

It must be true and it must be useful to the church and that these men should be given a platform.

When I think they should not be given a platform.

One other thing I would add to that is that.

Typically.

In these accounts.

With heaven is for real for instance.

The way in which Todd really abuses scripture by jerking them out of their context and

misapplying them is utterly stunning.

It would make a Jehovah's Witness blush the way he does.

Systematically he does this systematically on different passages of scripture.

He'll take a phrase out of a passage of scripture and compare it to something that his son says and see therefore.

It must be biblical and I give a number of these examples in my own book.

So these anybody who Abuses scripture like that should not be trusted and not only to not

exegete scripture.

They shouldn't be trusted to exegete scripture.

They shouldn't be trusted to give any kind of Discernment or an account of an

experience that we would expect to see any kind of discernment attached to it.

It's utterly pathetic.

Well, we have Susan Margaret in Dauphin County, Pennsylvania Who asked the

question?

Don't you think that we who are very conservative and cessationist

Christians who discount all of these things as false that we must not

broad brush them all as being from charlatans because there are

Genuine supernatural accounts that are occurring but from the demonic realm and when

people who are truly Experiencing things like this are being told that they're

liars they will discount everything else that we say to them that is true from the Bible because they will know

for certain that what we Are saying in regard to them making up a story is false.

Amen.

And just to follow up on BB's.

I'm sorry.

That was Susan's question in Dauphin County Pennsylvania, I think that she was

on to something.

In regard to we who are not in the orbit of Pentecostal ism or the

charismatic movement we sometimes ignore the reality of demons

and the demonic realm even though we would say with certainty that they exist we would say that Satan is a a

Real creation that he that he does indeed exist.

We tend to just not talk about it much or preach about it much and

I think that she is on to something.

Don't you think that there can be a danger in it?

Whereas on the one hand you have charismatics Some charismatics and some

Pentecostals finding a demon under every rock you have reformed people Just not addressing the issue.

Don't you think that's dangerous and all of you both respond?

Yeah, a lot of airing on either one of that either side of that spectrum I think is a danger and even behind

every every rock and bush.

And and never acknowledging the presence of anything supernatural.

I think both of those are are equal errors on opposite sides of the spectrum

and just I agree.

I Agree with that.

There's a danger.

And remember that the

demons are real.

They do have power.

They can't influence people.

They can't count one who is in

we are you

possess us there

there are ditches on

we have.

Let's see here we have Christopher from

Suffolk County, Long Island, New York.

Who says do you think that what makes these stories most compelling is?

The fact that there are many Christians and others who are aching with broken

hearts.

Because their loved ones have departed from this earth whether they are saved or unsaved and out of missing them

so greatly they wish to have some kind of Further proof that their loved

one is in a place.

That's real.

Yeah, Piper actually alludes to that on a number of occasions in his book because he says that that's one of the

glories of The privileges that he has now that he's come back as he gets to go around and and have people

tell him.

You know, I doubted this and I'm so comforted and I needed to be reassured that heaven is actually for real because I've lost

somebody and he tells a number of stories later on in his book that of Accounts that he's had of

people who've come up and said that very thing and he takes it as a you know a badge of honor or

Pride or what?

However, you would say it that he gets to be the one to confirm that to people and I would say that if somebody

came Up to me I would just point them to scripture and that's ultimately where people need to be pointed back to is you can have

this confidence of what is Happening to your loved one or where your loved one is because of what scripture says not

because of what Piper says not because of what Burbo says and not because of any experience of any person who has ever

lived but because of the testimony of scripture.

Yes, if what Jesus says about heaven does not Encourage people and give them confidence and

and comfort.

Then why would they think that Piper or Burbo can do the same?

Well, why did they why would anybody think that they can offer such comfort?

They ought to look to the testimony of Jesus.

Praise God.

Well, I want you now Jim and Justin to summarize in about a minute each what you most want

etched in the hearts and minds of Our listeners before we go off the air.

Well, I'll go first.

Since that way Justin can't steal my thunder.

I Would again

point point your listeners back to the sufficiency of scripture.

I think that that's what this ultimately comes back to.

I don't know of a single Issue that plagues modern evangelicalism that cannot be traced back

to at its root.

A lack of belief in the sufficiency of scripture.

Whether it is modern -day prophets and revelations or the seeker sensitive movement

or pastors trying to entertain their flocks and get away from preaching and preach on the latest summer

blockbuster or whether it's the gobbling up of the heaven tourism industry and the testimony there

or even whether it is taking the testimony of demons and in thinking that that is somehow a

source of authority for spiritual warfare all of the All of the things that you've interviewed me about as well as all of the things that plague

evangelicalism come back to the sufficiency of scripture.

We would point people back to the word to the testimony of the word.

And if the church in America and the church in our World could just get grounded on what it means that God's Word is enough.

It is sufficient.

It is pure holy and true and we can trust it.

And and that is enough to inform all of life and God in us.

If we can get people back to that most most of our problems and our false doctrines would

disappear almost overnight.

And Justin I I'd say I don't really know what I could add to that because it's exactly almost work

for the real.

Absolutely, that is that is what Jim and I'm

both champions.

The battle today is not so the

real battle today of God's Word.

So whether it's heaven anything

that this okay.

Well, I know that your websites as far as Jim Osmond is concerned is Kootenai church

org.

Kootenai.

Church org and also truth or territory Calm truth or

territory calm.

And Justin Peters.

I know your website is Justin Peters org Justin Peters org.

I want to thank you both for being on the program.

I look forward to many future Return visits to on intrepid Zion radio from both of you.

I want to thank everybody who listened especially those who took the time to write in questions.

And I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior

than you are a sinner.