April 24, 2018 Show with Jim Osman AND Justin Peters on “Selling the Stairway to Heaven: Critiquing the Claims of Heaven Tourists”

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Wishing you all a happy Tuesday. On this 24th day of April 2018 I'm delighted to have a returning guest today to discuss a very fascinating topic. Jim Osmond he's pastor and preaching elder of Kootenai Community Church in Kootenai, Idaho, and we're going to be discussing a very controversial book.

He has written. I know that all of you listening must be familiar with the fact that those who have reported visiting heaven After dying and then being brought back to life in some fashion by physicians and nurses and so on and these books making their way to.

To.

These these stories I should say making their way to books and even to major motion pictures. Well, our guest today Jim Osmond has written a book selling the stairway to heaven critiquing the claims of heaven.

Tourists. And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to iron sharpens. I'm radio Jim Osmond. And we have a surprise co-host with us today. We have Justin Peters of Justin Peters ministries and he happens to be a member of Kootenai Community Church in Idaho under the pastorate of Jim Osmond and it's great to have you co-hosting the program with me today.

Justin Peters be with you and an honor to be. And in fact, yes.

I think this is the first I'm discovering that Jim has a very good sense of humor. Yes, and by the way, I. You're breaking up there Justin, I'm sorry. Yes, and if you both could make sure that when you're speaking that you speak directly into the mouthpiece of whatever phone you're using or.

Or what have you. The. By the way, am I pronouncing Kootenai Community Church correctly? Hello, I think I've lost my guests already or both of you there.

And Jim are you can you hear me now?

Yeah, you're I can hear you now. Yes, you scared me there for a second. Okay, great. Has been a while since we've hasn't been that long but it's been long enough for me to forget. Pronouncing it correctly.

Kootenai Community Church and Justin Peters Ministries

Well before we go into this subject Selling the stairway to heaven critiquing the claims of heaven tourists, which is a great way of phrasing that please remind our listeners or inform our listeners for the first time.

For those of My audience. For those in my audience who did not hear your previous interview. Tell us about Kootenai Community Church.

Kootenai Community Church is a set in rural North Idaho. It's a beautiful area. US Canadian border. Elders. I'm the primary preaching elder though. All four of our elders are involved in teaching. We're a conservative church reformed in our soteriology, though not in our eschatology and we believe and are committed to the exposition of scripture and the Shepherding of the Saints who make this church their home.

And when you say you're not reformed in regard to your eschatology.

Are you dispensationalist or are you historic pre-mill or what? Where would you be in that? Okay, and Justin Peters remind our listeners or inform them for the first time if they're just discovering you.

What Justin Peters ministries is all about?

My only interest. Great. Well, I know that your website is Justin Peters org, correct?

Yeah, so I'm urging all of you to look that up and also look up previous Interviews that I've had with Justin and also look up The last interview I had with Jim Osman on this program at the iron sharpens iron radio website archive for Justin Peters.

Just type in in the search engine of the Archive where it says past shows podcast type in Justin Peters and For Jim Osmond, obviously you could do the same with his name Jim Osmond Osman or just type in his last name Osman.

It will end his previous interview will come up but Jim. As I said in the introduction There have been more and more People it seems coming forward. I cannot read their minds or know their hearts as to know their motivations for doing this or what the source is of their of their claims about visiting heaven whether they are Something that have been demonically inspired or whether they are purposefully acts of charlatanism or What-have-you, but tell us what was the motivation behind you writing the book selling the stairway to heaven critiquing the claims of heaven tourists.

Why Jim Osman Wrote Selling the Stairway to Heaven

Well, I recount 90 minutes in heaven sort of made its debut in the Christian scene and it was all the rage. And it was shortly after I threw the Christian community in our area and and I looked at the book and I never read it never really gave it any any thought it was a passing fad that would probably eventually pass and then of course Follow-up to that was all of the products that came out it became Became more than a passing fad.

It became quite a popular thing and more and more people were buying the book and and then Colton burpo and Todd burpo's book came out heaven is for real and that seemed to sell almost as many copies if not more than 90 minutes in heaven and do it at a much quicker pace and So after heaven was for real was published.

I made it my intention to Simply do a book review of each one of these books just to see if they comport and so I start to 90 minutes in.

Heaven and.

Compared to the book and then let it later claims of that he made that opinion and Teaching about his experience to heaven and then I did the same thing for heaven is for real. And then I followed that up with another book that came out just just as I was getting ready to Publish this book and put it all into a book.

I'm not sure what that is. Do you guys know what that is?

Oh.

That's all right, well that's life and things happen. I just I wanted to make sure we weren't in being invaded by another conference call.

And he was a Neuroscientist who had a form of meningitis and he could time and it is an agnostic Afterlife and things his book and including a lot of times those that have been since he was a neurosurgeon.

He had this now that's.

Comparison with the other two. Yeah, that's utterly fascinating that he would remain an agnostic and yet believe he was in heaven. It doesn't even really make sense. Does it?

Yeah, I know but a lot of you and even Alexander's with you are completely opposite. Dennis Prager is not a materialist. He's and he believes in so life. Yeah, it's. Yeah, go ahead. I'm sorry.

Yes, and first of all, let me clarify for our listeners who may have misunderstood you you are referring to Don Piper with a D as in David not John Piper the well-known pastor who I believe is retired from the pastorate in Minnesota who although we disagree with him on some of his views in favor of the charismatic movement We would not want to confuse him with this Don Piper.

Yeah, correct. And if I if I said John Piper, I thought no you didn't I I clearly heard you but.

Right. I heard you clearly say Don. I'm just I just wanted to clarify because You know people listening especially when you're on the phone they may have misunderstood you. And by the way, I want to remind Justin That Justin Peters you can chime in with a question any time that you want.

And don't wait for me to ask you for a question. Just chime in whenever you think the moment is appropriate. But let me before we get into some of these specific accounts that are claimed of visiting heaven Do you believe.

And in fact, I'll ask both of you men. Do either of you believe that it is ever possible? For a genuine Christian who may die on a clinical death obviously on an operating table then be revived or resuscitated and Have some kind of an experience with heaven.

And of course my follow-up question for both of you would actually be Do you believe that? Temporary visits or visions of hell for an unbeliever are possible and we'll start with you Jim and then Justin you can follow.

Whether Near-Death Experiences Can Be Genuine

Yeah, well in principle, I'd have to say well for someone to experience being unconscious or in a in a near-death state. I think that they're the question but the question is what is causing that experience and how genuine is it and What should we make of those experiences?

And that is where I think that these books go far afield. I I usually in this life of the next is a very thin one and I don't think that I think it's possible for us in spirit soul or being that we can.

In a moment of death or as we are crossing over into death we can Experience both time now if we're able to come back and relate any of that that that I don't think. That I don't think I could say that you can nor would I say that you should ever build any kind of theology or any?

Sort of a ministry or a platform off of such an experience that ultimately that's just an experience and anything you experience Is not a source of true information and it and it should be questionable a question to pass.

I would never want to make my experience a test for truth in that regard. Justin would you add anything to that? Yeah, I would echo everything you just you know, the I tell people often you can't exegete an experience.

Lots of people have experiences. Mormons Muslims Buddhists Tons of pagan people have experiences. The question is is what is the source? We do know that Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. We do demons have we have to we have to go back to the offended the judgment.

But you do still. Yeah, I just wanted to have Justin confirm whether or not he holds out the the possibility that it could happen.

Chris I would I would okay. And Jim you were just about to say something.

Hell, Conversion, and Deathbed Visions

Okay now for the other side of eternity what about hell. I have heard about people who have been revived from a death experience on an operating table and the frightening visions that they had or experiences that they had Did seem to be a key factor in their conversions?

And of course they don't always wind up that way. There are some lunatic fringe people that make the same claims, but do you think that God could use? a glimpse of hell before somebody permanently dies.

Physically that is to in order to awaken them to the truth that they are headed for Eternal damnation if they don't repent and embrace Christ.

Claims that Jesus took him to hell and take someone to the very to save them. I personally think that that is what you're hearing with these people and they come back horrified and they're revived and they're horrified.

But what they experienced. Chris I would say that they have been brought. It's appointed man wants to die and then the judgment the judge judgment comes after death not before not. Jim Do you have any thoughts on that?

There's nothing about the experience. It was then genuinely born-again believer as she's lying on the deathbed. She got this glow on her face that he was gazing what seemed like past the ceiling and she started to smile and then she Immediately passed into eternity.

Reacting and passing into in the next isn't to doubt those. What I do have reason to doubt is people Who say I went here and I experienced this and so let me teach you what? Scripture cannot teach you about these things that that is cause for real genuine doubt.

And that's what I did.

Yes, I not long ago. I Can't even remember right now where I was hearing these deathbed. These last words on earth in deathbed experiences. Where very famous Christians that we would consider biblically sound that we would Uphold as great heroes of the faith.

Where right before they permanently left this earth? Where they died physically? Permanently, they weren't revived or anything. But their last words seemed to indicate that with some of them that they were seeing a glimpse of heaven or something like that.

Yeah, I have. No I have no problem in principle with that. Now the Apostle Paul's.

Glimpse of heaven that he received does he indicate that he would be the only one that saw this glimpse that was given this.

This rare opportunity to see heaven. Well, we read about that. But what I find number one Paul did not even want to talk about his experience. Apostolic authority, but it's almost like Just kind of a reluctant authority.

Well, I know a man. Yeah, he speaks of himself in the third person. In the third person exactly right and I think that's extremely. Paul did not and in the thing happened 14 years ago at the time of his writing so 14 years had passed and Paul had said nothing about this.

He had written nothing about this and even when he finally did almost reluctantly bring it up. He's that this man hurt. I'm just strong and we're gonna have.

Right, and when we come back from our break Jim, I'd like you to go through in summary the major claims that you address in your book by those who claim that they have. Experienced a tour of heaven if you will call it that and.

If anybody would like to join us on the air whether you agree with our guests whether you disagree. Perhaps you have a claim of your own. Well, send us an email to Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. Chris a RN Z and gmail .com.

Please give us your first name at least your city and state in your country of residence if you live outside the USA. Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

Let's say you believe. That you have had some kind of an experience of visiting heaven or hell and you don't want to draw attention to yourself. You're embarrassed by it perhaps or whatever the case may be.

I can understand you wanting to remain anonymous or perhaps you're Your pastor or your congregation agrees with these kinds of experiences and you disagree with them. Or perhaps you're a pastor and your denomination agrees with these kinds of things and you disagree with your denomination or something like that.

We understand that you would want to remain anonymous. But other than that, please give us your first name at least your city and state in your country of residence. If you live outside the USA, don't go away.

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This is Chris Arnzen. If you just tuned us in. Our guest today is Jim Osmond pastor and preaching elder of Kootenai Community Church in Kootenai, Idaho. We are discussing his book selling the stairway to heaven critiquing the claims of heaven that tourists and with us is Justin Peters who is a Surprise guest co-host today also interviewing Jim Osmond with me if you'd like to join us on the air with a question.

Our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. Chris Arnzen at gmail .com and please give us your first name city and state And country of residence. If you live outside the USA, we have a listener in Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania who says in your opinion are these accounts in general?

Largely to be attributed to pure greed or is there demonic activity at play? And very interesting question and if you could both of you if you could answer that is we'll start with Jim Osmond.

Do we have to choose between the old. Obviously you could say whatever you believe is the truth. I can't judge John Don Piper's not John Donne with his medical bill and Todd Burr small Methodist shirt.

Amount of money. I don't think the detail that can be ignored on the other side of the what I mentioned earlier with even Alexander and his book proof of heaven. He's not somebody stood the only that he held.

Did he make millions ignored either? Innovation. Or at least a good a good motive for deceiving people the way that one of the effects of these and away from The next life. And well Gordy you have won a free copy of selling the stairway to heaven.

So, please make sure we have your full mailing address, and I'm sorry Justin if you could. Oh, no.

No, you've got Jesse Duplantis. We've talked about Don. I mean watch this. There's a lot of these people now. Financial motivation is a.

Sorry about that.

Yeah, I mean it's true, I mean it's the most bizarre thing. You wouldn't have it on a cable car. There was a blonde haired angel. He says that he saw his own mansion. It just just what launches. P not going to gain a big thing it up.

Some of them right and.

The Lack of Gospel Presentation and the Sufficiency of Scripture

Jim what are the primary stories that you deal with in your book? In fact, let me before I ask you that or have you answered that? There was an account and I can't remember which one it was. I have a feeling it was the burpo account.

But I'm not sure but Phil Johnson who I'm sure you both are very familiar with he is the executive director of grace to you ministries the media ministry of John MacArthur, and he had some kind of Communication with the wife or ex-wife of one of these individuals responsible for writing or Or pushing a child to write these experiences and the wife or ex-wife was convinced that this was all false.

Do you know which one I'm talking about?

Yeah, yes Chris. And Thank you, Jim. The young man of whom you're speaking is Alex malarkey and Alex was in a car accident with his father when he was about and.

Unfortunate name for somebody trying to convince people of a a very fantastical story.

Yeah.

Long stories. Alex got saved. Genuinely saved now praise God. Texture. Alex. Yeah, praise God indeed. Alex is a quadriplegic but the accident left him completely paralyzed he has to be Respiratory unless God.

And they were trying to get the truth out about this and nobody would listen, but I have a truck. Yeah, he actually got.

Yeah, in fact, you can inform them if you'd like that. They have an open door here on iron sharpens iron radio for an interview. I don't know how Capable the son is to speak on a phone or something. But I can certainly interview the mother if or both of them if they are both able to and so you can tell.

Yeah, I appreciate that. Well, if you could. Jim, what are the major stories that you? Examine and refute in your book.

Confirming or contradictory there are places he talks about.

By the way, Jim Jim you're I don't know what what's happening. But you're very muffled if you could make sure you speak directly into your mouthpiece. I don't know if that's what's happening. But Yeah, that's a lot better.

Not having.

Jim you're totally going muffled again. I don't know what's happening on your end, but can you make. Right like right now you're perfect.

I didn't think of it. But later I realized that I didn't did not hear such songs as the old rugged cross of the male start and and then he says This none of the hymns that filled the air were about Jesus's sacrifice or death.

I heard no sad songs and instinctively knew that there are no sad songs in heaven. Why would there be all were praises about Christ's reign as King of Kings and our joyful worship of all that? He has done for us and how wonderful he is.

If you compare that with what Scripture says when John looks upon the scene in heaven he says he heard the voice of many angels around the throne the living creatures and the elders and the number of them was myriads of Myriads and thousands thousand.

Saying with a loud voice was to be might and honor and glory and blessing. He makes reference to like the ones we're saying on earth and yet Bloody sacrificial death as the Lamb of God for the sins of his people within the book.

It was not heaven. And in fact, it's people.

Yeah, the thing that amazes me is That by the way, Jim you were perfect for the last a couple of minutes of your your your commentary there. Okay, so whatever it is you're doing to keep doing.

But.

It's amazing that Roman Catholics and evangelicals Will get excited about these stories, even though the stories conflict with their own Theologies and religions. Make makes absolutely no sense to me.

I know especially a number of Roman Catholics.

Even in.

Catholic media that will Standby and promote and support these things when in according to their own theology. These people should be in purgatory. Doesn't make any sense. Am I right? I mean doesn't. Go ahead.

It will Jim. We'll start with you and then Justin.

Contradict each other. Piper for instance, he he endorsed Todd Burpo's book on Colton Burpo's experience and yet in in Piper's book He says that the the age is not recognized in heaven age is not a thing in heaven book.

He makes the claim that there are all kinds of kids in heaven and that Jesus sat on Jesus's lap and did his homework and Jesus helped him do his homework and the Holy Spirit was like a blue fog in Heaven and Jesus had a rainbow-colored horse and all of this other nonsense.

There's all these claims that one will make that are completely contradicted by the other so Where does this confusion come from? It's certainly God who is not the author of it.

His vision of heaven seemed to be his little sister's bedroom. That's what all these kinds of bizarre girly childlike things that he saw. Well, we actually have to go to our our midway break right now.

This is a longer than normal break because grace life radio 90 .1 FM in Lake City, Florida Requires of us a 12-minute break between our two major segments. So please be patient with us. Take this time to not only write down the information you are hearing from our advertisers so that you can patronize them and Respond to them, but also take this time to write down your own questions.

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Paul wrote to the church at Galatia for am I now seeking the approval of man or of God? Or am I trying to please man. If I were still trying to please man? I would not be a servant of Christ. Hi, I'm Mark Lukens pastor of Providence Baptist Church.

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