April 24, 2018 Show with Jim Osman AND Justin Peters on “Selling the Stairway to Heaven: Critiquing the Claims of Heaven Tourists”

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Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

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Carlisle, Pennsylvania it's iron sharpens iron a radio platform on which pastors

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Christian scholars and theologians Address the burning issues facing the church and the world today

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Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron.

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So one man sharpens another Matthew Henry said that in this passage quote we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and Directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour

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And we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions

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Now, here's our host Chris Arnton Good afternoon,

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania Lake City, Florida and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth or listening via live streaming at iron sharpens iron radio .com

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This is Chris Arntz and your host of iron sharpens iron radio wishing you all a happy Tuesday on this 24th day of April 2018

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I'm delighted to have a returning guest today to discuss a very fascinating topic

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Jim Osman he's pastor and preaching elder of Kootenai Community Church in Kootenai, Idaho, and we're going to be discussing a very controversial book.

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He has written I know that all of you listening must be familiar with the fact that those who have reported visiting heaven

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After dying and then being brought back to life in some fashion by physicians and nurses and so on And these books making their way to These these stories

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I should say making their way to books and even to major motion pictures Well, our guest today

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Jim Osman has written a book selling the stairway to heaven critiquing the claims of heaven tourists

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And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to iron sharpens. I'm radio Jim Osman And We have a surprise co -host with us today

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We have Justin Peters of Justin Peters ministries and he happens to be a member of Kootenai Community Church in Idaho under the pastorate of Jim Osman and it's great to have you co -hosting the program with me today

02:43

Justin Peters Chris thank you very much. It's an honor to be with you and an honor to be

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On with Jim as well. Looking forward to our time together. And in fact, yes

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I Think this is the first I'm discovering that Jim has a very good sense of humor

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Yes, and by the way, I You're breaking up there Justin, I'm sorry

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As long as I can Yes, and if you both could make sure that when you're speaking that you speak directly into the mouthpiece of whatever phone you're using or Or what have you?

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The by the way, am I pronouncing Kootenai Community Church correctly? Hello, I think

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I've lost my guests already or both of you there. Oh Jim I'm here. But yes, you are.

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I just figured Jim would answer that. But yes, you are pronouncing it correctly and Jim Are you can you hear me now back on there?

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Yeah, you're I can hear you now. Yes You scared me there for a second Okay, great has been a while since we've hasn't been that long but it's been long enough for me to forget

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I'm Pronouncing it correctly. Well before we go into this subject

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Selling the stairway to heaven critiquing the claims of heaven tourists, which is a great way of phrasing that please remind our listeners or inform our listeners for the first time for those of My audience for those in my audience who did not hear your previous interview

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Tell us about Kootenai Community Church Kootenai Community Church is a small church and set in rural,

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North, Idaho Amongst the foothills of the Rockies and Selkirk Mountains It's a beautiful area and we are right up close to the

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US Canadian border. We are an elder led church We have four elders. I'm the primary preaching elder though.

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All four of our elders are involved in teaching we're a conservative church reformed in our soteriology though not in our eschatology and We believe in are committed to the exposition of Scripture and the

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Shepherding of the Saints who make this church their home And when you say you're not reformed in regard to your eschatology, are you dispensationalist or are you historic pre -mill or what?

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Where would you be in that? Okay, and Justin Peters remind our listeners or inform them for the first time if they're just discovering you

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What Justin Peters ministries is all about? Yes, Chris.

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God has opened up a ministry for me to to be an evangelist I travel across the

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United States and around the world usually have three to five international trips per year, but Travel preaching and teaching though.

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It's not my only interest what I'm most well known for is the Seminar that I teach entitled clouds without water.

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It's a biblical critique of the health and wealth prosperity gospel word of faith movement and So that is that's about it

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Great. Well, I know that your website is justinpeters .org, correct? Correct it is.

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Yeah, so I'm urging all of you to look that up and also look up previous Interviews that I've had with Justin and also look up The last interview

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I had with Jim Osmond on this program at the iron sharpens iron radio website archive For Justin Peters, just type in in the search engine of the

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Archive where it says past shows podcast type in Justin Peters and For Jim Osmond, obviously you could do the same with his name

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Jim Osmond Osman or just type in his last name Osman it will end his previous interview will come up but Jim As I said in the introduction

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There have been more and more People it seems coming forward. I cannot read their minds or know their hearts as to know their motivations for doing this or what the source is of their of their claims about visiting heaven whether they are

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Something that have been Demonically inspired or whether they are purposefully acts of charlatanism or What have you but tell us what was the motivation behind you writing the book selling the stairway to heaven?

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critiquing the claims of heaven tourists Well, I remember several years ago when

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Don Piper's account 90 minutes in heaven sort of made its debut in the Christian scene And it was all the rage and it was shortly after I started

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Pastoring that that kind of swept through the Christian community in our area and And I looked at the book and I never read it never really gave it any any

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Serious consideration. I just thought it was a passing fad that would probably eventually pass and then of course Follow -up to that was all of the products that came out.

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It became it became more than a passing fad It became quite a popular thing and more and more people were buying the book and and then

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Colton Burpo and Todd Burpo's book came out heaven is for real and That seemed to sell almost as many copies if not more than 90 minutes in heaven and do it at a much quicker pace

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So there was obviously a tremendous hunger if you will for this information or at least a curiosity on behalf of Christians in the

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Christian community and So after heaven was for real was published. I made it my intention to Simply do a book review of each one of these books just to see if they comported the scripture if they were consistent with themselves and consistent with each other and so I started with in a book review of of Don Piper's book in 90 minutes in heaven and compared his claims with his own claims in the book and then let it later claims about that he made that opinion and Teaching about his experience to heaven and then

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I did the same thing for heaven is for real And then I followed that up with another book that came out just just as I was getting ready to Publish this book and put it all into a book

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I'm not sure what that is. Do you guys know what that is? Yeah I'm sorry

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Oh, that's all right, well that's life and things happen. I Just I wanted to make sure we weren't in being invaded by another conference call.

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That's all You're right and then and then another book was came out and it was written by even

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Alexander called proof of heaven and he was a neuroscientist who had a Form of meningitis and he was in a coma for a period of time and in his account of visiting heaven

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And he doesn't claim to be a Christian at all. And yet he has an account where he he went to heaven and Describes what he saw there and it's a whereas the other two accounts are openly

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Quote -unquote Christian in their apparent trying to describe heaven and in the profession of those men

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Even Alexander is not he was an agnostic at best and he presents a very Eastern sort of mystic

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New Age approach to the afterlife and fantasy experience So my goal with with critiquing his book and including a review of his book was

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To simply show that there are other people who are not even Christians who have these out -of -body experiences or near -death but a lot of times those experiences can be can be very descriptive or similar to one's own worldview and one's own thinking and one's own expectation and Whatever Don Piper and Colton Burpo's motivations for what they wrote and what they said are

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Even Alexander's motivations were not at all financial and it could not have been since he was a neurosurgeon

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He had this world's goods. He was very well -known He had a prestigious position and he stood to only lose from claiming to experience the afterlife sense

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He by his own additional his friends and family relatives and peers were all agnostics and complete materialists now that's

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A comparison with the other two. Yeah, that's utterly fascinating that he would remain an agnostic and yet believe

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He was in heaven and doesn't even really make sense. Does it? Yeah, no, but a lot of Christians.

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I heard him interviewed on the Dennis Prager show Well now Dennis Prager's worldview and even Alexander's worldview are completely opposite.

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Dennis Prager is not a materialist He's an Orthodox Jew and he believes in some form of afterlife in heaven

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But if he was promoting even Alexander's book as Here's more proof that there is an afterlife even a materialist is convinced that his materialism

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It's materialistic will be wrong by his experience of this afterlife. Yeah, it's

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Yeah, go ahead I'm sorry I guess that he is, you know

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Even Alexander's then his approach to the whole subject matter was just an interesting contrast with the other two and and something that Demonstrates that unbelievers have these these experiences

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Yes, and first of all, let me clarify for our listeners who may have misunderstood you you are referring to Don Piper with a

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D as in David not John Piper the well -known pastor who

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I believe is retired from the pastorate in Minnesota who although we disagree with him on some of his

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Views in favor of the charismatic movement We would not want to confuse

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Him with this Don Piper Yeah, correct. And if I if I said

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John Piper, I know you didn't I I clearly heard you but Right. I heard you clearly say

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Don. I'm just I just wanted to clarify because You know people listening especially when you're on the phone.

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They may have misunderstood you And by the way, I want to remind Justin That Justin Peters you can chime in with a question any time that you want

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And don't wait for me to ask you for a question. Just chime in whenever you think the moment is appropriate

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But let me before we get into some of these specific accounts that are claims of visiting heaven

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Do you believe and in fact, I'll ask both of you men Do either of you believe that it is ever possible for a genuine

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Christian who may die on a clinical death obviously on an operating table then be revived or resuscitated and Have some kind of an experience with heaven.

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And of course my follow -up question for both of you would actually be Do you believe that?

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Temporary visits or visions of hell for an unbeliever are possible and we'll start with you

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Jim and then Justin you can follow Okay Yeah, well in principle,

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I'd have to say that theoretically it is possible for someone to experience Something after being unconscious or in a in a near -death state.

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I think that they're The question but the question is what is causing that experience and how genuine is it and What should we make of those experiences?

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And that is where I think that these books go far afield. I Usually answer this question by saying that I think that the route that the veil between this life and the next is a very thin one and I don't think that I think it's possible for us since we are soulless creatures with spirit soul

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Immaterial aspect to our being that we can in a moment of death or as we are crossing over into death we can

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Experience both worlds as it were for a period of time now if we are able to come back and relate any of that that That I don't think

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That I don't think I could say that you can nor would I say that you should ever build any kind of theology or any?

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Sort of a ministry or a platform off of such an experience that ultimately that's just an experience and anything you experience

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Is not a source of truth It's not a reliable source of information and it and it should be questionable a question to pass

15:39

I would never want to make my experience a test for truth in that regard Justin. Would you add anything to that?

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Yeah, I would echo everything you just said Jim and you know, the I tell people often you can't exegete an experience

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Lots of people have experiences Mormons Muslims Buddhists Tons of pagan people have experiences.

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The question is is what is the source of those experiences? We do know that Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.

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We do know that Demons have some ability to counterfeit signs and wonders we know that from Scripture in a number of different places, but We have to we have to go back to the authority of God's Word Hebrews 9 27

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Pointed man wants to die in the judgment There's just no biblical warrant whatsoever to take any of these supposed experiences on any kind of authoritative level and but that's what these people are doing now,

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I tend to believe that Whatever someone may experience or see or think they think they see in that kind of a twilight zone there if you will between life and death

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I Would I would lean much more that it is simply the body doing weird things in that State of shutting down or you know getting ready to transition there

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You I have no doubt the body can do some very unusual things and all of us have had dreams We can all attest to this.

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We've all had dreams that we thought were real Very very vivid very real and even when we wake up or until the cobwebs clear after a couple minutes

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We still think it was real even after we've been awake for a minute or two And and so I would say that whatever they're experiencing.

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It's something along those lines rather than an actual Crossing over but but even at that None of these accounts can be taken as any kind of a

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Authoritative source for truth. We must stand on the sufficiency of God's Word for that but you do still hold of the

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I just wanted to have Justin confirm whether or not he holds out the the possibility that it could happen

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Chris I would I would I don't suppose I could rule it out 100 %

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I mean my mind immediately goes to Stephen in Acts chapter 7 right before he was stoned. He had a vision in the heaven of Jesus standing at the right hand of the father, but of course, this was the

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Apostolic Age and Also Stephen's account. He was not even he was not dying yet They were just about to stone him, but I don't suppose

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I could rule it out one with 100 % Finality but I would

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I would lean strongly against it I would be very surprised that that were the case, but even if it if it is possible

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It's certainly nothing that we can take as authoritative, but I Lean I lean pretty heavily against it.

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Okay, and Jim you were just about to say something Well, I was just gonna say that even even

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Alexander's experience of what he relates in his book I don't do not doubt for a moment that he had a genuine experience

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The question is whether what he experienced is true or not, and I would say the same thing with Piper and with Burpo I don't know for a moment that that those people had those experiences now the question is did it was

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Piper's experience and experience of the true and genuine heaven and To understood to be able to discern that you have to compare what he says about having to put what

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Scripture says about heaven and There I think it falls up short So I would say whatever he experienced as genuine and true and real as it was to him

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It was not the true and genuine heaven that is revealed in Scripture And I would say the same thing about Colton Burpo's experience as well

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Okay now for the other side of eternity What about hell?

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I have heard about people who have been revived from a death experience on an operating table and the frightening visions that they had or experiences that they had

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Did seem to be a key factor in their conversions And of course, they don't always wind up that way.

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There are some lunatic fringe people that make the same claims But do you think that God could use a glimpse of hell before somebody?

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permanently dies Physically that is To in order to awaken them to the truth that they are headed for Eternal damnation if they don't repent and embrace

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Christ I would say one

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Example of that would be Bill Weiss. He wrote a book entitled 23 minutes in hell

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Claims that Jesus took him to hell after he became a believer, which is very problematic theologically.

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I don't know why Christ would send someone take someone to the very place from which he died to save them but I Personally think that that is what you're hearing with these people who are on their deathbed or in that twilight zone if you will

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They're and they come back horrified and they're revived and they're horrified, but what they experienced Chris I would say that that is probably nothing more than their guilt their guilty conscience.

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They have been brought face to face with their own mortality in a very acute way and I think they are dying.

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These lost people are dying with a guilty conscience And so I think that's all there is

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I have to keep coming back to Hebrews 9 27 But it's appointed man wants to die and then the judgment the judge judgment comes after death

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Not before not in the transitional state after after final death in the judgment, so Jim do you have any thoughts on that?

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No, I would concur with that entirely. I mean there's what we're saying is it by in principle?

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There's nothing There's nothing about the realm of the natural and the supernatural or the spiritual and the material

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That says that somebody cannot be Experiencing for a moment and time both worlds

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We've heard accounts from reliable people who say that you know, grandma who served the Lord all her life

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She was then genuinely born -again believer as she's lying on the deathbed She got this glow on her face this look of peace as she was gazing what seemed like past the ceiling and she started to smile

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And then she immediately passed into eternity, you know The experience is like that where somebody's body is is reacting in this realm to what their soul is passing into in the next

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I have no reason to doubt those those episodes those occurrences What I do have reason to doubt is people who say

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I went here and I experienced this and so let me teach you what Scripture cannot teach you about these things that that is cause for real genuine doubt and that's what

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I take serious issue with Yes, I not long ago. I Can't even remember right now where I was hearing these deathbed

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These last words on earth in deathbed Experiences Where very famous Christians that we would consider biblically sound that we would

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Uphold as great heroes of the faith Where right before they permanently left this earth

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Where they died physically? Permanently, they weren't revived or anything But their last words seemed to indicate that with some of them that they were seeing a glimpse of heaven or something like that Yeah, I have no

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I have no problem in principle with that with those those accounts now the

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Apostle Paul's Glimpse of heaven that he received does he indicate that he would be the only one

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That saw this glimpse that was given this this rare opportunity to see heaven

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Well, he doesn't state that Specifically but in the New Testament there were only three men who are allowed a glimpse into heaven and that is

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Stephen who I mentioned a minute ago Acts chapter 7 and then John who wrote the book of Revelation But he was writing inspired authoritative scripture

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And so that's on a level all of its own and then the third one The only other one is the

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Apostle Paul Chris that you mentioned and we read about that in 2nd Corinthians 12

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But what I find so compelling about that is a couple of things number one

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Paul did not even want to talk about his experience, but his apostolic authority was being questioned by people back in Corinth and so it's almost like Just kind of a reluctant

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Look you you question my authority. Well, I know a man. Yeah, he speaks of himself in the third person in the third person exactly, right and I think that's extremely

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Insightful not only into Paul's character, but it's his humility Paul did not boast about this.

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He was so humbled by it that he referred to himself in the third person He said

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I know a man in Christ and And this thing happened 14 years ago at the time of his writing said

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I know a man in Christ who 14 years ago. So 14 years had passed

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And Paul had said nothing about this He had written nothing about this and even when he finally did almost reluctantly bring it up.

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He said That this man heard words that are inexpressible

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That man is not permitted to speak. He said I heard words that I'm I'm not allowed to speak and I I'm just struck by the stark contrast between the

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Apostle Paul This is the man who wrote You know depending on who you think wrote the book of Hebrews somewhere between a third and a half of the

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New Testament this is the Apostle Paul and he was not allowed to tell people what he saw and heard in heaven and He certainly didn't go on book tours and in the speaking circuit and make a career

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Out of his trip to heaven like all these other people today do it's just a stark stark contrast and we're gonna have

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To be connected to his apostolic claims as well Presumably if the

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Corinthians had never questioned those credentials, we would never have even known about that experience Right, and when we come back from our break

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Jim, I'd like you to go through in summary the major claims that you address in your book by those who claim that they have experienced a tour of heaven if you will call it that and If anybody would like to join us on the air whether you agree with our guests whether you disagree

27:14

Perhaps you have a claim of your own Well, send us an email to Chris Arnzen at gmail .com

27:20

Chris a RN Z and a gmail .com Please give us your first name at least your city and state in your country of residence if you live outside the

27:28

USA Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

27:33

Let's say you believe That you have had some kind of an experience of visiting heaven or hell and you don't want to draw attention to yourself

27:41

You're embarrassed by it perhaps or whatever the case may be. I can understand you wanting to remain anonymous or perhaps you're your pastor or your congregation agrees with these kinds of experiences and you disagree with them or Perhaps you're a pastor and your denomination agrees with these kinds of things and you disagree with your denomination or something like that We understand that you would want to remain anonymous

28:04

But other than that, please give us your first name at least your city and state in your country of residence If you live outside the

28:10

USA, don't go away. God willing We'll be right back with Jim Osmond and Justin Peters right after these messages from our sponsors

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33:18

Welcome back This is Chris Arns and if you just tuned us in our guest today is Jim Osman pastor and preaching elder of Kootenai Community Church in Kootenai, Idaho we are discussing his book selling the stairway to heaven critiquing the claims of heaven that tourists and with us is

33:37

Justin Peters who is a Surprise guest co -host today also interviewing

33:43

Jim Osman with me if you'd like to join us on the air with a question Our email address is

33:49

Chris Arnson at gmail .com Chris Arnson at gmail .com And please give us your first name city and state and country of residence if you live outside the

33:59

USA. We have a listener in Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania who says in your opinion are these accounts in general?

34:08

Largely to be attributed to pure greed or is there demonic activity at play?

34:15

Very interesting question, and if you could both of you if you could answer that is we'll start with Jim Osman Do we have to choose between the two or can we say it's some combination of both?

34:27

Yeah, obviously you could say whatever you believe is the truth Well, I can't

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I can't judge John Don Piper's not John Don Piper's motives or Todd Burpo's motives

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The fact that they have made millions of dollars off of their stories is something they can't be ignored. I don't think in all fairness

34:45

They they both would have a financial motive Don Piper's accident cost him with his medical bills it was astronomical and he mentioned that in his book and Todd Burpo was on the on the cusp of of obscurity pastoring a small

35:01

Methodist Church out in the Plains and Mentioned his own financial difficulties that were at the heart of all of this until all of a sudden his son made a trip to heaven and the book

35:13

Sprung him into a position to be able to make a tremendous amount of money I don't think that so I can't say that that's what their motive is because I don't know their heart

35:21

It's not it's not a detail that can be ignored on the other side of the equation is the what

35:27

I mentioned earlier with even Alexander and his book proof of heaven. He's not somebody who I would say had a financial motivation at all

35:34

I don't I don't know how it is I mean he stood the only to lose from his account and coming forward with it and as I said all of his peers and his medical peers and His family members would all share the same

35:46

Materialistic worldview that he held before he had his experience. So Did he make millions off the book?

35:53

I don't know. He probably sold a good number of books, but He only he couldn't have foreseen that he would have made a lot of money on that from the sale of the book, so I Yeah, there could be a financial motivation there

36:05

I would say it's fair to say that that's possible though I don't know that for sure do the I also think that these experiences can be

36:13

Demonic deceptions and I don't think that that's something that should be ignored either I think Satan has a motivation or at least a good a good motive for deceiving people

36:22

The way that he has with these books because I I think that one of the effects of these Types of books and these types of stories is to draw people's attention away from Scripture and away from Scripture as our only authority and putting it upon the experiences of men who end up exalting themselves as a

36:39

Reliable source of truth regarding the next the next life and what awaits the believers after this one

36:45

Well Gordy you have won a free copy of selling the stairway to heaven So please make sure we have your full mailing address, and I'm sorry

36:52

Justin if you could oh No, no, that's fine. Yeah, I would just echo everything that Jim said

37:01

And there's there's a lot of them Chris. There's You've got Jesse Duplantis who says he went to heaven

37:07

Roberts Lee Arden We've talked about Don Piper Colton burpo Bill Weiss. There's Mary Baxter.

37:13

There's Let me watch the Sid Roth television program and just about every other week

37:19

He's got somebody on his program that says he or she went to heaven and so there's a lot of these people now

37:25

Financial motivation is a huge huge part of it And Jesse Duplantis, for example, that's what put him on the map was his claim to to go to heaven on a cable car

37:37

Yeah, I mean it's true

37:47

I mean it's the most bizarre thing you went to heaven on a cable car There was a blonde haired angel on the cable car with him

37:52

And he he says that he saw his own mansion, which that's not even the right rendering of that word in John 14, but it just just just ridiculous stuff, but but this is what launches people see a

38:07

Nowadays, unfortunately, you're not going to gain a big following by publishing a systematic theology or publishing a commentary or something on the

38:18

Sound doctrine people aren't except for God's Faithful remnant for the most part people are not interested in those things

38:26

They're interested in experiences and so if you can come up with some experience

38:32

You can be the new shiny object there for a while and you gain a lot of followers and Jesse Duplantis lives in a 35 ,000 square foot parsonage and so there there are millions and millions of dollars to be made in this

38:49

Now some of them is as Jim said rightly, I think Most of these people are just making it up some of them had some kind of a

39:01

Dream that they thought was real and they told it to someone someone told it to someone else and on and on and pretty soon

39:07

You've got this whole Story that's been fabricated around just what was nothing more than a dream.

39:12

I think Don Piper would probably fit into that Paul talks in 2nd

39:18

Timothy chapter 3 Those in verse 12 and 13 he says talks about those who are deceiving and being deceived

39:26

Deceiving and being deceived and I think some of these people Some of them fall into that they are actively deceiving people.

39:35

They know they're lying Because they contradict Even themselves and you look at these accounts.

39:42

They often contradict one another but sometimes they even contradict themselves They can't even keep their own stories, right?

39:48

so they're actively deceiving and yet being deceived and both of those dynamics can be at work in the same person and Jim, what are the primary stories that you deal with in your book?

40:01

In fact, let me before I ask you that or have you answered that? There was an account and I can't remember which one it was

40:10

I have a feeling it was the burpo account But I'm not sure but Phil Johnson who I'm sure you both are very familiar with he is the executive director of grace to you ministries the media ministry of John MacArthur, and he had some kind of communication with the wife or ex -wife of one of these individuals responsible for writing or or pushing a child to write these experiences and The wife or ex -wife was convinced that this was all false if do you know which one

40:42

I'm talking about Yeah, Justin knows more about that than I do not necessarily the account that Justin has been in contact with some of the key players.

40:51

I'll let him answer that Yeah, yes Chris and Thank you,

40:58

Jim. The young man of whom you're speaking is Alex malarkey and Alex was in a car accident with his father when he was about seven years of age and Sometime after the car accident

41:13

His father Alex, I mean his father Kevin malarkey Wrote this book unfortunate name for somebody trying to convince people of a a very fantastical story

41:26

Yeah You know, he can't really help who what's your last name is but but Kevin Long story short

41:41

Kevin wrote this book called the boy who went to heaven and About his own son

41:47

Well, the book was very very popular life way sold this book. For example, it's in its stores very very popular

41:56

But some years later, in fact as of right now about Well, probably about four years ago

42:05

Alex got saved Genuinely saved now praise God text here

42:10

Alex Yeah, praise God indeed Alex is a quadriplegic, but the accident left him completely paralyzed

42:18

He has to be He has to have 24 -7 care. He's hooked up to machines to help him

42:27

Respirate he's you know, unless God heals him in a very miraculous way

42:33

Alex is not going to improve physically But Alex did exactly what you would expect a

42:40

Christian to do. He came out and he said My story is not true.

42:46

I did not go to heaven now unfortunately his father Kevin wanted to perpetuate the lie because it was his gravy train, but Alex did

42:57

What he was supposed to do what you expect a believer to do and they were trying to get the truth out

43:02

To Tyndale publishers and to the major Christian bookstores that were selling his book life way included and Beth Beth malarkey is

43:13

Alex's mother and As you said Chris Phil has been in contact with her I've been in contact with her and they were trying to get the truth out about this and nobody would listen to him

43:23

Tyndale would not listen Wow the Christian bookstore would not listen because this was making them money and I even had email exchanges with Tom Rainer the president of life way.

43:37

I used to be on the board of life way So I have this email address and I was trying to get them to pull the whole the whole genre of this heavenly tourism

43:46

Industry, it's not biblical. And so I was trying to get him to pull these Books from life way shelves and they wouldn't do it.

43:54

But I finally said Tom I've been in contact with Beth malarkey They are trying to get the truth out that this story did not happen that Alex did not go to heaven

44:05

Alex is trying to get the truth out. I said if you don't believe me, here's Beth malarkey's email address

44:11

Here's her phone number contact them This was in May of 2014 well

44:19

January or either January or February of 2015 Is when the story finally broke in the in the secular media all over the world

44:29

It was one of the biggest news stories in the world for about a day or two broke out that Alex recanted his story and he didn't go to heaven and and then life way comes out with a statement and They said upon learning about Alex malarkey's recantation.

44:49

We had decided to pull his book from our shelves Well upon learning no, that's a lie.

44:56

That's a flat -out lie and I can prove it They knew about this months before it's seven eight months before definitively knew knew it because Tom Rainer was getting my emails

45:08

Tom Rainer and Ed Stetzer both and so on just a flat -out lie and so, uh

45:13

Yeah, and if you can tell I'm a bit passionate about this because I'm grieved by these so -called

45:20

Christian bookstores Selling theological garbage that they know is garbage, but they sell it anyway because it makes a buck and That unfortunately shows that they're

45:31

Their primary concern is the bottom line not the spiritual well -being of their customers and not and obviously not the glory of God But I have a tremendous amount of respect for Alex and he got he actually got baptized just a few weeks ago and He had to be sprinkled because he can't

45:50

He can't get his you know, his equipment that keeps him alive can't get that wet obviously so I kind of had a

45:57

Presbyterian baptism of source sprinkled but But you know what? I'm fine with that So I just praise the

46:04

Lord for Alex Alex did what what you would expect a Christian to do in contrast with Colton Burbo Yeah, in fact that you can inform them if you'd like that They have an open door here on iron sharpens iron radio for an interview.

46:18

I don't know how Capable the Sun is to speak on the phone or something but I can certainly interview the mother if or both of them if they are both able to and so you can

46:35

Yeah, I appreciate that well if you could Jim what are the major stories that you

46:43

Examine and refute in your book Well, what

46:49

I tried to do in the book was to compare the statements that are made within each book With other statements made within each book to see if they're self -contracted self -confirming or contradictory there are places

47:07

By the way, Jim Jim you're I don't know what what's happening But you're very muffled if you could make sure you speak directly into your mouthpiece.

47:15

I don't know if that's what's happening. But Yeah, that's a lot better Tom Piper makes a number of claims that in his book regarding what he saw and felt and heard in heaven that Later contradicts inside of his own book.

47:35

For instance. He makes statements about About not having very much knowledge and yet knowing everything

47:41

He makes it he makes statements about things that he saw and heard and then later will contradict those

47:48

Team people in heaven that obviously had some sort of age to them and then talking about how there is no age

47:53

And then I compared some of his statements to things the scripture says for instance one of the most

48:01

I'm looking for the quote here if I can get to it one of the most I think the egregious claims He makes is regarding the songs in heaven

48:08

He writes this many of the old hymns and choruses. I have sung at various times in my life The part of the music along with hundreds of songs

48:15

I've never heard before things of praise modern sounding choruses and ancient chants filled my ears and brought not only a deep piece

48:22

But the greatest feeling of joy I've ever experienced As I stood before the gate, I didn't think of it.

48:27

But later Jim you're totally going muffled again.

48:32

I don't know what's happening on your end. But can you make? Right like right now you're perfect But later

48:45

I realized that I didn't did not hear such songs as the old rugged cross of the male scarred hand and then he says

48:51

This none of the hymns that filled the air were about Jesus's sacrifice or death I heard no sad songs and instinctively knew that there are no sad songs in heaven

49:00

Why would there be all were praises about Christ's reign as King of Kings and our joyful worship of all that he has done for?

49:06

Us and how wonderful he is you compare that with what scripture says When John looks upon the scene in heaven

49:13

He says he heard the voice of many angels around the throne The living creatures and the elders and the number of them was myriads of myriads of thousands thousand saying with a loud voice

49:20

Worthy of the land that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing So, you know

49:26

He makes reference to these songs in heaven being like the ones we sang on earth and yet John's perspective of heaven is that Christ is praised for his bloody sacrificial death as the

49:38

Lamb of God For the sins of his people So those type of contradictions are within the books themselves where whatever it was that Piper experienced

49:47

It was not heaven And in fact, it's it's really unfair to say that he spent 90 minutes in heaven Because he says over and over in a book that he never actually went into heaven all of his experiences outside The gate of heaven so by his own admission

49:58

He spent 90 minutes outside the gates of heaven and he never saw Jesus He says in the book that he never saw

50:04

God and all that he saw were the people From his life people who had been significant spiritually or in his own development on earth

50:13

We're there to greet him and Jesus was nowhere to be found so that type of Approach to heaven that those type of claims about heaven.

50:20

I think are contradictory to themselves and most significantly to Scripture Yeah, the thing that amazes me is that by the way

50:30

Jim you were perfect for the last couple of minutes of your Commentary there.

50:36

Okay. So whatever it is you're doing to keep doing but It's amazing that Roman Catholics and evangelicals

50:46

Will get excited about these stories, even though the stories conflict with their own

50:52

Theologies and religions make makes absolutely no sense to me. I know especially a number of Roman Catholics even in Catholic media that will stand by and promote and support these things when in According to their own theology.

51:11

These people should be in purgatory Doesn't make any sense Am I right?

51:18

I mean doesn't Go ahead. Yeah, well Jim will start with you and then

51:23

Justin Yeah, the the other thing is that some of these books these books contradict themselves the accounts contradict each other

51:32

Piper for instance He endorsed Todd Burpo's book on Colton Burpo's experience and yet in in Piper's book

51:40

He says that the age is not recognized in heaven age is not a thing in heaven but in in Burpo's book he makes the claim that there are all kinds of kids in heaven and that Jesus Sat on Jesus's lap and did his homework and Jesus helped him do his homework and the

51:56

Holy Spirit was like a blue fog in Heaven and Jesus had a rainbow -colored horse and all of this other nonsense.

52:02

There's all these claims that one will make that are completely contradicted by the other so Where does this confusion come from?

52:09

It's certainly God who is not the author of it His vision of heaven seemed to be his little sister's bedroom

52:15

That's what all these kinds of bizarre girly childlike things that he saw

52:21

Well, we actually have to go to our our midway break right now This is a longer than normal break because grace life radio 90 .1

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That's Chris Arnzen at gmail .com and That's also the mailing the email address where you can send in a question to our guest

01:10:12

Jim Osmond and we are addressing his book selling the stairway to heaven and we also have a surprise co -host today

01:10:22

Justin Peters and That email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com

01:10:28

If you could before we go into any more listener questions Jim Osmond, if you could just continue with giving an outline of any of the other major Accounts that you address and seek to expose in your book

01:10:49

Real quick and one of them is the lack of gospel presentation in these accounts And the second is the way in which such accounts serve to undermine a belief in and a practice of on the sufficiency of Scripture When it comes to the gospel accounts and the lack of clear gospel presentation in the books

01:11:10

You would think that having spent 90 minutes in heaven that Don Piper would Want to make the way to heaven absolutely clear and yet about the clue that the closest thing to any kind of a gospel

01:11:23

Presentation that he has in the entire book is on page 196 where he says quote

01:11:28

Going to heaven that January morning wasn't my choice The only choice in all of this is that one day

01:11:34

I turned to Jesus Christ and accepted him as my Savior Unworthy as I am he allowed me to go to heaven and I know the next time

01:11:41

I go there I'll stay close quote. That's the closest thing to the gospel that that Don Piper gets to in his book

01:11:48

He he says earlier in his book on page 129. He said I want as many quote

01:11:54

I want as many people as possible to go to heaven I've always believed Christian theology that declares heaven is real and a place for God's people since my own

01:12:02

Experience of having been there. I felt a stronger sense of responsibility to make the way absolutely clear

01:12:09

Not only do I want people to go to heaven? I now feel an urgency about helping them open their lives so they can be assured that's where they'll go when they die close quote

01:12:18

Just his whole way of thinking that he's presenting the gospel with that type of language Open their lives

01:12:24

So they'll be assured that that's where they go when they die and asking Jesus into his heart and accepting him as a Savior I take issue with the language itself, but not just that but you would think that somebody who had seen heaven and spent 90 minutes

01:12:36

There and was convinced that in his own words. He needed to make the way absolutely clear

01:12:41

You would think that he would make it clear but in the book There's no presentation of the nature of sin or its ravages upon humanity or how we are lost or under the wrath of God We're deserving of eternal torment or the substitutionary nature of Christ on the cross

01:12:56

And what he did there and atoning for the sins of his people or the responsibility of men to repent and to believe this gospel

01:13:02

And what that will bring none of that is presented in his book. And so it is Absolutely devoid of the gospel and Burpo's book is no better Burpo uses the same kind of language about asking

01:13:14

Jesus into your heart And thinks that that is a clear demonstration of exactly what the gospel is.

01:13:20

So these books They make no Explanation of the gospel at all and I can only surmise that if God were behind these

01:13:30

Visitations if it were actually God that was allowing these men to see these things and what they had seen was the real heaven that they

01:13:36

Would have something akin to the gospel fervency of the Apostle Paul Amen Justin you had something to say

01:13:46

Yeah, Chris just to tag on to what Jim said I I find that one of I mean, there's so many reasons to reject these these claims logical theological but that that really is the

01:13:57

One of the primary ones is that it is just unfathomable to me that someone who has been granted the magnanimous privilege

01:14:06

Of going to heaven would not bother to tell anybody how to get there Yeah, I mean that is just proof positive that they didn't go if You know, you can read these books and you can hear you can see what?

01:14:24

Described you can see how Don Piper describes his grandfather's big banana nose his great -grandmother

01:14:31

Hattie's Smile as Jim said Colton Burpo Jesus helped him with his homework and you read about all this just ridiculous stuff

01:14:42

But they they don't bother to tell anybody how to get there if they had truly if they had really been to heaven

01:14:49

They would have been so overwhelmed by the the the majesty of God the glory of God the holiness of God and they would be so overwhelmed by the urgency of the gospel

01:15:02

They would be doing nothing but Preaching the gospel. They wouldn't be wasting their time telling you what the grandfather's nose look like and Yeah, I mean it's just stunning to me

01:15:18

Chris that that the popularity of this whole genre of editorial is a is a sad commentary

01:15:25

It's just how biblically illiterate the vast majority of professing Christians are

01:15:31

I mean It shouldn't you don't have to be A Greek scholar, you don't have to you don't have to be a theologian

01:15:40

To read these books and immediately realize, you know, something's not right here How is it that they've been to heaven and they don't give anybody to gospel?

01:15:48

It's just um Unfathomable to me. Well, we do have some listener questions

01:15:54

We have BB in Cumberland County, Pennsylvania who asks, how do you respond to somebody who says?

01:16:02

Why are you bothering to complain about these types of books and movies if they get people to start?

01:16:10

thinking seriously about the afterlife in heaven and The fact that it is a real place

01:16:17

Isn't there more good done than harm through these stories being spread?

01:16:25

Yeah, I think that'd be a good opportunity to introduce the real harm that is done by stories like that And that is that it undermines a belief in and a practice in the sufficiency of Scripture Really ultimately our authority for the reality of heaven comes back to the

01:16:40

Word of God itself So such an objection or such a protest to my type of criticism of these accounts

01:16:48

Really comes back to the belief that well scripture is not sufficient to accomplish that task And so we need these accounts to to do that to convince people of the reality of heaven and and that is in fact exactly what

01:16:59

Piper suggests in in the later part of this book as he talks about all the places that he goes to speak and Tell people about heaven and other people who come up to him and thank him for his story one theme that weaves its way through all of those accounts is the these people doubting and Fascinating over whether or not scripture is true and whether I haven't really is for real and then they hear

01:17:22

Piper and they read the Big sigh of relief and say oh, well, thank goodness I finally finally

01:17:27

I can know for sure that there is a heaven and I'm going to go there But it actually is real because Don Piper went and saw it and he says on page 129 of his book

01:17:36

Quote in fact my experience has changed many things about the way. I look at life. I've changed the way

01:17:41

I do funerals now I can speak authoritatively about heaven from first -hand knowledge close quote Well, I can speak authoritatively about heaven

01:17:48

But most significantly not because I have had a first -person experience of heaven But because scripture tells me all that I need to know about heaven

01:17:55

And so we are fools to think that these books are going to accomplish something in the lives and souls of the lost

01:18:02

That the Word of God cannot accomplish in their lives and their souls These books are all they do serve to do is undermine people's belief in the authority and the sufficiency of scripture because these men continually point back to themselves as A resource by which we can know that the testimony of scripture is true and it's right and it's sure

01:18:22

And that really is the most insidious I think subtle and most horrific danger that these accounts in these books present to the body of Christ Amen, I mean we walk down a very dangerous road when we start being pragmatic about Using or taking advantage of falsehood or things from the dark side if you will just because we may see some things that appear to be a

01:18:51

Benefit in some way Like for instance, I know that people have criticized me when

01:19:00

I have publicly Critiqued and opposed certain revival meetings in evangelistic crusades where false professors are on the podium and People will say well, you know people are coming to Christ What what's the big deal you're making such a big deal about it

01:19:21

In fact, the people who follow those false teachers are more likely going to be in the audience and then my response has been yeah

01:19:28

But they're also more likely to continue following what the false teacher is teaching if they're on the podium there.

01:19:33

Am I right? Yeah Yeah, so it's very dangerous to be pragmatic is basically what

01:19:40

I'm saying Yeah We have it. We have a listener By the way

01:19:45

BB I forgot to mention BB you have won a free copy of selling the stairway to heaven critiquing the claims of heaven tourists

01:19:52

By Jim Osmond, so please make sure we have your full mailing address and we'll have CVB BS comm ship that book out to you we have

01:20:03

Arnie in Perry County, Pennsylvania Who asks a question? That is relevant to something that I just found out from our co -host

01:20:13

Justin Peters Arnie in Perry County says

01:20:19

Have either of you sought out and confronted any of these people making these?

01:20:25

fantastic claims about the afterlife to confront them to their face that they are teaching a lie and I Believe Justin you have actually had that experience with one of these individuals if you could explain

01:20:40

Yes, Chris I have and I get that question a lot because I critique all the word faith preachers in my seminar

01:20:48

You know, have you confronted them up for what I've done my best but these people largely are completely inaccessible

01:20:54

You don't have access to these big -name False teachers unless you're one of their a donors unless you give a great deal of money, but on occasion

01:21:02

I've managed to do it and Several years ago when Kathy and I were still living in,

01:21:08

Oklahoma Don Piper came to a church in Oklahoma about an hour and a half from where we lived to talk about his book 90 minutes in heaven and Kathy now went and I Had read his book and so we sat there and listened to it.

01:21:24

There was presentation And in his presentation, he said that he saw

01:21:29

God while he was in heaven well I find that very interesting because I happen to have a copy of his book with me and when it was over I went up to the table where he was selling books and signing them and I said

01:21:43

I wish I had 10 recorded this but I said mr. Piper may ask you a question. He said yes

01:21:49

And I said you said that you saw God while you were in heaven. He said yes, I did He said it was the brightest light

01:21:56

I'd ever seen what he said. It was up on top of a hill and So I actually had the book with me and I opened it to page 33

01:22:05

In his own book and in his own book. He says quote. I Did not see

01:22:11

God. I saw no luminous glow that might have indicated his divine presence in quote and I said

01:22:20

How how do you explain that you said tonight you did see God but here in your book that you're selling here tonight

01:22:27

You say you didn't see God. Not only did you not say you didn't see the divine glow that would have indicated where he was and he was clearly caught off guard by that Wow and Kind of stumbled around for a minute.

01:22:40

He said well, well You know, I'm not the only one who was writing this book.

01:22:45

There was a He gave his name I couldn't remember but he also wrote the book with me and If I could if we could go back we would change some things and I said,

01:22:58

I said mr Mike, but that's a big deal. I mean to say that you saw God.

01:23:03

I mean, that's a that's a pretty specific and rather Amazing claim that you said you saw

01:23:10

God but in your book, you're very clear You did not see God and he said well, I'm telling you right now that I did and then he just ushered me home

01:23:18

I mean he he really because there were some other people that had gathered around and they were listening and they were they heard

01:23:24

I was intentionally talking loudly so a lot of people could hear it and It was it was quite embarrassing for him

01:23:32

But yeah, these people are there. He's just dishonest I think what has happened is it has been a while since he has read his own book and he just Forgot what was in it, you know, and so it goes to show how dishonest these people really are

01:23:48

Amen well, we're gonna go to our final break right now It's gonna be much briefer than the others And if you'd like to join us on the air our email address is

01:23:55

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com Chris Arnzen at gmail .com C H R I S A R N Z E N at gmail .com

01:24:03

As always, please Give us your first name your city and state in your country of residence If you live outside the USA and only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter

01:24:12

And by the way, Arnie in Perry County You've also won a free copy of the book that we are discussing selling the stairway to heaven

01:24:20

Critiquing the claims of heaven tourists, please. Make sure we have your full mailing address there in Perry and Perry County, Pennsylvania And don't go away.

01:24:27

God willing. We'll be right back after these messages Hi, I'm Buzz Taylor frequent co -host with Chris Arnzen on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio I would like to introduce you to my good friends

01:24:41

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That's CVBBS .com Let Todd and Patty know that you heard about them on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Charles Haddon Spurgeon once said

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01:27:01

Hi, I'm pastor Bill Shishko inviting you to tune in to a visit to the pastor's study every

01:27:07

Saturday from 12 noon to 1 p .m Eastern Time on WLIE radio www .wlie540am

01:27:18

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01:27:49

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01:27:55

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01:28:48

Study. Well, we are now back to our final half hour Of our discussion with Jim Osmond who is a pastor and preaching elder of Kootenai Community Church in Kootenai, Idaho we are discussing his book selling the stairway to heaven critiquing the claims of heaven

01:29:06

Taurus and my co -host today On the phone is

01:29:12

Justin Peters who happens to be a member of Kootenai Community Church in Kootenai, Idaho and by the way,

01:29:19

I'd like you all to mark your calendars for this Monday because we have a biblically sound book a biblically faithful and truthful book on heaven

01:29:31

Written by a Reformed Baptist pastor. Will I make it to heaven a new look at the perseverance of the

01:29:37

Saints? Written by Daniel Deeds who is our guest this Monday God willing

01:29:42

April 30th 4 to 6 p .m. Eastern Time So mark your calendars for that interview on will

01:29:49

I make it to heaven by Daniel Deeds quite a providential thing that we arranged that interview very close to this one on the false accounts of Those who claim to have visited heaven and Justin Peters.

01:30:05

Do you have a question for Jim Osmond? I Do Chris Jim I run into a lot of people as I travel that speak to their experiences or experiences of a friend or a family member

01:30:19

And they really base their Worldview they base they they believe that they can claim truth or base truth off of these experiences.

01:30:28

What would Somebody say what would be some verses that you could go to that speak to verses in the

01:30:37

Bible that speak to the uncertainty of our experiences and the sufficiency of God's Word to Convince people of biblical truth

01:30:47

God's truth that experiences just cannot do excellent. Excellent question Out of the gate.

01:30:54

I would turn to 2nd Peter chapter 1 where? Peter refers to one of his own experiences and in that context he's describing how

01:31:04

His presentation of the gospel his relation Relating of things pertaining to Christ is not based upon Experiences it's not based upon cleverly devised fables.

01:31:16

He says in 2nd Peter 1 16 We did not follow cleverly devised fables tales when we made known to you the power to coming of our

01:31:23

Lord Jesus Christ but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty and then Peter goes on to describe the the mountaintop experience the

01:31:32

Transfiguration beginning in verse 17 He says for when we received honor and glory from God the Father such an utterance as this was made to him by the majestic Glory, this is my beloved son with whom

01:31:41

I'm well pleased and he's referring there to what happened in Matthew chapter 17 And Peter says and we ourselves heard this utterance made from heaven when we were with him on the holy mountain

01:31:51

Numbers 19 so we have the prophetic word made more sure and of course more sure than what more reliable or true more

01:31:57

More test worthy than what his own experience. So he says I'm not relating to you Some fable passed on to me by other men

01:32:05

I was an eyewitness of these things when I had this experience but even more significant than my experience is the prophetic

01:32:11

Word of God and and he there would be referring to the Old Testament scriptures as the Reliable sure word that his readers

01:32:19

He says would do well to pay attention to as a lamp shining in a dark place Until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts

01:32:27

And then he goes on to talk about the scriptures being inspired and not being a matter of one's own interpretation

01:32:32

But men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God So there he points his readers to not his own experience which he could have related

01:32:39

He could have he could have just told of all the things he experienced and told people there look to me I I can now speak with authority because I'm a firsthand witness of these things as Piper does in his book and As Todd Burpo suggests is true of his accounts as well

01:32:52

But Peter doesn't do that. He points his readers back to scripture and says more reliable than my experience is the

01:32:57

Word of God It's more sure and you do well to take heed to it Because it is inspired and men of God moved by the

01:33:04

Holy Spirit spoke from God So that that points people away from personal experience as a divine test for truth as a as a source of truth and points them

01:33:13

What is revealed in Scripture and Jesus did the same thing in Luke chapter 16 when he says if they don't if they don't give heed

01:33:20

To Moses and the prophets then they're not going to listen to you. They have Moses in the prophets. Let them let them respond to that let them let that convince them and one of the assumptions behind Burpo's books and and Piper's books is that the

01:33:37

Their experiences are more and their experiences are necessary to convince Christians that what scripture says is true

01:33:43

And of course that puts them as an authority above scripture and then wouldn't intend to say that but that's exactly what it does

01:33:49

And it puts their experience as the test of truth ahead of scripture, which that's not what they would say

01:33:55

They're intending to do but that is exactly how they present their experience So we are warned in Scripture not to trust our experiences not to base our theology on experiences

01:34:03

But upon the Word of God and that last objection that you you raised from that listener on the email

01:34:08

Chris Where she says that these books do a lot of good in getting people to turn their attention to spiritual things and eternal issues

01:34:15

I would say if they will not listen to Moses and the prophets They're not going to listen to Don Piper and Colton Burpo.

01:34:21

Amen, and they are not Amen and by the way to clarify our listener

01:34:27

BB was not saying that she believed that she was asking how to respond to people that claim that And yeah, this is excellent stuff because and I'll have you both respond to this

01:34:41

The people Anybody who is basing their faith their belief their theology, especially salvific

01:34:50

Lee on supernatural experience is Really walking on very thin ice.

01:34:59

I mean I have had so many conversations conversations To give you an example with Roman Catholics, for instance who will swear that the apparitions of Mary at Fatima and other places are true

01:35:17

Just because the apparition Has said good things about Jesus has told people to follow

01:35:25

Jesus people's lives have been changed because of the apparition

01:35:31

Thousands of people Simultaneously seeing apparently or allegedly the apparition

01:35:39

And you could go on and on and which is it would what is very interesting is that? Even Roman Catholic theologians, especially the more conservative and traditionalist ones while embracing the apparition of Fatima totally reject as demonic or false

01:35:58

The upper apparitions at major Gorya it's it's it's more the more moderate to liberal

01:36:06

Catholics that embrace major Gorya, but Isn't this true that we?

01:36:11

Regardless of what theology we embrace when we are basing something on a supernatural experience

01:36:17

It is very dangerous. And if you could both answer that Jim if you could start Yeah, those in that case the experience ends up confirming a false religion a

01:36:28

Christian cult as it were that that destroys the doctrine of justification by faith and exalts man's righteousness and and man's works as sufficient for salvation, so there you have a the demons have adequate reason to deceive people into thinking that such adoration of those relics those images and those apparitions is

01:36:49

Is worth people's time? Because it ends up distracting them away from the true Christ and the true

01:36:54

Jesus and the third book that I review in that Book that I wrote even Alexander's book proof of heaven his experience ends up being a confirmation of an

01:37:04

Eastern mystic kind of Gnostic Quasi materialistic worldview that that he holds to and so if experiences are a valid a truth

01:37:14

And if that's what we're gonna say is in the case with Piper and with Burpo, then what about even

01:37:19

Alexander's experience? He had a very legitimate experience and most Christians will say well no, no, we reject even

01:37:25

Alexander because he was a materialist and he presents a very new age and Quasi -eastern view of God and the afterlife there

01:37:33

But we'll embrace Piper and Burpo and I would say on what grounds do you embrace the one and reject the other?

01:37:39

If experience is the test of truth, then why do you not embrace? Even Alexander's experience and the only answer to that ends up being well

01:37:46

Piper and Burpo are part of our tribe You know they name the same name that we do and they're really promoting our

01:37:52

God So we're going to embrace their experiences, but not even Alexander's experience is not the experience of the people who visit

01:37:57

Fatima, etc So it is it's very hypocritical.

01:38:02

It's very inconsistent and It just once again points back to the lack of biblical understanding that people have that that's another example of the ends justify the means theology where people will say

01:38:14

Well who really cares if that's real or not as long as people are changing their lives and following Jesus And all that that but that is not true at all

01:38:25

Somebody may say well, yeah, I attended a Don Piper lecture and I heard him talk about heaven I gave my heart to Jesus at the end of it.

01:38:31

Okay. Okay. So what what Jesus? Did you give your heart to and what gospel message? Did you respond to it?

01:38:36

I hope that at least there was a gospel message clearer than what he presents in the book and and if it wasn't then

01:38:41

I have no Confidence at all that and you were actually soundly saved as a result of anything Piper said right and even if somebody was truly saved

01:38:50

By embracing Christ at something like that that doesn't that doesn't put a seal of approval on the

01:38:56

Speaker like for instance, I know people In fact, I interviewed it. I interviewed at least one a number of years ago

01:39:03

Who was led to the biblical Christ in the biblical gospel through the Jehovah's Witnesses?

01:39:10

Not because they embraced what the Jehovah's Witnesses were teaching him But they started reading the

01:39:16

Bible as a result of the visits from the Jehovah's Witness So just because that person came to Christ and was saved does not mean we legitimize the

01:39:25

Jehovah's Witnesses No people get people get saved and even soundly saved in horrible churches from horrible messages

01:39:34

Where God might save somebody in spite of the message that is preached or right the church that preaches it

01:39:39

But that is no that is no Support for endorsement of Unbiblical methods just because God might choose to do something in spite of them

01:39:48

While a person happens to be exposed to them We should still be testing the movement or the source itself with Scripture We have

01:39:56

John and Bangor Maine who asks can either of you cite from history any notable figure?

01:40:03

especially a notable figure that is viewed today by theologically sound people as Someone to read and study from who had an experience of the afterlife such as seeing either heaven or hell and living to tell the tale a

01:40:24

Jim if you could start or either one of you can start I'm just pausing because I'm racking my brain to think of one.

01:40:30

I I can't think of one off the top of my head Justin do you know of any?

01:40:37

No, Chris. No, I can't either off the top of my head But the converse of that I can think of many

01:40:44

You have like Joseph Smith and Muhammad both of whom claimed to have very real experiences this being this entity appeared to them and gave them new revelation and So, you know, we want to drive home the point that we're not doubting that people have experiences

01:41:02

What we're calling people's attention to is what is the source of those experiences and?

01:41:09

In anything that exceeds biblical parameters as all of these accounts do 100 % of them do must be rejected and it's just like Jim said a moment ago with 2nd

01:41:20

Peter 1 I mean here you have Peter who was and it was an eyewitness to the

01:41:25

Transfiguration himself and he referred to the scriptures as more certain than that So we always want to we just want to champion the sufficiency of Scripture, but in short

01:41:35

No, I cannot I cannot think of anyone John, please give us your full mailing address there in Bangor, Maine and we'll have

01:41:42

Cv bbs .com Ship you out a free copy of selling the stairway to heaven Critiquing the claims of heaven tourists by our guest

01:41:49

Jim Osman. We have a related question Here we have

01:41:55

Christian in Suffolk County, New York who asks

01:42:02

Have there been frequent accounts in the past prior to the 20th century of people making these claims or are the preponderance of them made in recent years

01:42:16

He's basically asking about anybody regardless of their theological makeup I mean, was this a frequent thing throughout history where people would make these claims?

01:42:27

I don't remember I don't know from history of a high concentration of these claims

01:42:33

I mean that it seems like such claims are endemic to the charismatic movement the New Apostolic Reformation Word of Faith movement

01:42:41

Such claims seem to be pretty symptomatic of what goes on in those circles But and and that of course is a more recent phenomenon, but from church history again,

01:42:51

I don't know of anybody I don't know of a time in the history of the church that I'm aware of where you had

01:42:57

This kind of a mass promotion of these kinds of claims And especially embraced within the church

01:43:03

I'm sure there are cultic groups within church history where these people who preach a different gospel openly and a different Jesus openly also have have these claims of visions like Joseph Smith that Justin just referenced but in terms of within the church and being accepted by broad swaths of what would we would normally consider to be

01:43:23

Orthodox Christians and With sound denominations the Baptist denomination and lifeway books, etc

01:43:29

I don't I don't know of any other concentration of such an acceptance of it in church history

01:43:36

No, and I would just add to that nothing certainly nothing concentrated you do see

01:43:43

Throughout the last couple thousand years a number of people who claim to receive dreams and visions

01:43:48

But whether you're talking about you and for example, you see this with the Montanists You you see this with the

01:43:55

Quakers you see it with Charles Parham and William Seymour who started the charismatic movement

01:44:01

Amy simple Macpherson Mary Maria Woodworth edder

01:44:08

Mary Baker but with all of these with 100 % of these examples Chris of people who claim to get dreams and visions or Claim to go to heaven and a movement is started as a result of these claims 100 % of them go off the rails doctrinally 100 % of them and So that this is why we keep harping on the sufficiency of Scripture anybody anytime somebody claims to get a dream and vision

01:44:35

They introduce something new without fail 100 % of the time And usually it doesn't take very long.

01:44:42

They go off the rails Doctrinally in very very significant ways they go right into heresy 100 % of the time

01:44:51

Hmm. Well, I want to make sure Jim that you don't let any stone remain unturned before we go

01:45:00

Off the air here if you could bring up anything else that you want to make sure our listeners are aware of Regarding your book selling the stairway to heaven critiquing the claims of heaven tourists

01:45:12

Um one of the thing that I would I would make reference to is that In Don Piper's book, and I'm trying to be

01:45:20

I'm trying to be fair here with Don Piper and what he says In his book he

01:45:27

Very much. I should say my critique of his book. One of the things I try and point out is I don't know there

01:45:33

We cannot say that what he said what he experienced was true or genuine I don't believe that it was and so then one of the questions that my critics would bring up is if he didn't experience the real heaven, then how do you explain his experience and The short answer to that is

01:45:50

I don't need to explain his experience. Although I do think that there are Things ways to explain this experience.

01:45:56

I don't think that we can rule out Demonic deception that he had a genuine experience where demons deceived him and we he was open up to such deception and that he had

01:46:06

Experience in the in the subconscious realm of his mind where he thought he saw things and heard things and demons

01:46:13

Had some influence in that. I think that that's a possibility I think it's also a possibility that his particular experience was

01:46:21

Generated by the heavy doses of painkillers and drugs that he was on after his accident And he mentioned that in his book the number of medications that he was on just it was almost mind -numbing

01:46:33

In its intensity because of the tremendous amount of pain that he was in That could his experience could be the result of just the medications and that the trips that were being played with his mind and him

01:46:43

Projecting on to those experiences what he wanted or what he thought he should get in heaven and what he expects in heaven

01:46:50

Those are those are possible explanations for his experience with with Colton burpo it could be that you have a four -year -old boy who's making stuff up and Todd burpo is going along with it and embracing it and not questioning it and Recording it down as if it's actual experience of his four -year -old boy in heaven

01:47:08

Even Alexander, I think that his experience could be demonic exception demonic deception It could also be the product of the meningitis that he had the illness and the drugs that they were using in his coma

01:47:18

There are all kinds of explanations for these various experiences and tales

01:47:23

And I think it is wrong for Christians just to assume out of the gate That if they have that experience and it and it talks about God in Jesus It must be true and it must be useful to the church and that these men should be given a platform

01:47:36

When I think they should not be given a platform one other thing I would add to that is that Typically in these accounts with heaven is for real for instance the way in which

01:47:48

Todd burpo Serially abuses scripture by jerking them out of their context and misapplying them is utterly stunning

01:47:55

It would make a Jehovah's Witness blush the way he does Systematically he does this systematically on different passages of scripture

01:48:04

He'll take a phrase out of a passage of scripture and compare it to something that his son says and see therefore

01:48:09

It must be biblical and I give a number of these examples in my own book So these anybody who

01:48:17

Abuses scripture like that should not be trusted and not only to not exegete scripture. They shouldn't be trusted to exegete scripture they shouldn't be trusted to give any kind of Discernment or an account of an experience that we would expect to see any kind of discernment attached to it.

01:48:33

It's utterly pathetic Well, we have Susan Margaret in Dauphin County, Pennsylvania Who asked the question?

01:48:42

Don't you think that we who are very conservative and cessationist

01:48:48

Christians who discount all of these things as false that we must not broad brush them all as being from charlatans because there are

01:49:01

Genuine supernatural accounts that are occurring but from the demonic realm and when people who are truly

01:49:09

Experiencing things like this are being told that they're liars They will discount everything else that we say to them that is true from the

01:49:17

Bible Because they will know for certain that what we are saying in regard to them making up a story is false well

01:49:30

Okay, just quickly we as we've been saying all throughout the program We don't doubt that some of these people are having experiences.

01:49:38

The question is what is the source of those? Experiences now we can say factually that on many points they are lying because they

01:49:47

Contradict themselves as I pointed out a few minutes ago with Don Piper his he has glaring contradictions even within on his own story

01:49:55

And Colton Burbo is exactly the same way and I detail this in my seminars.

01:50:01

I go around Presenting this to churches. I have a section my seminar deals with this So we can factually say that they are lying because we can document their lives now, you know what happened with their experience with their dream or They're just making it up, you know

01:50:18

That's we can't we can call for educated guesses But we can't say but we can say that they're not biblical and we can say that many points they are liars

01:50:26

And if I'm a Chris, I just want to get this point in The question was brought up just a minute moment ago about cessationism

01:50:34

And I think Jim and I would both be on the same page with this. We are not We are not advocating some cold dead orthodoxy here where You know, it's just everything is doctrine doctrine doctrine and that's you know, just somehow that's cold and lifeless

01:50:50

I think Jim and I would both say that that True doctrine sound doctrine is what?

01:50:57

Helps us to better know God it deepens our knowledge of God and when our knowledge of God is deepened

01:51:02

Then that enables our love for God to be deepened. And so doctrine is not cold at all.

01:51:09

It is vibrant and Jim and I are not against Experiences, I think we would both say to everyone listening to this.

01:51:18

I would I would be afraid of the man who Does a deep study of God's Word and for example studies the attributes of God I would be afraid of the man who who truly studies

01:51:29

God's Word and is not moved Deeply moved in his in his emotions by who

01:51:36

God is at the majesty of God his holiness his Faithfulness his love his mercy his wrath and all of these

01:51:44

And so we would affirm biblical experiences I'm just in all as I study

01:51:49

God's Word of who he is and So so we're not against we're not advocating something.

01:51:56

That's cold and lifeless Study God's Word get to know him Deepen your knowledge of God and you will have

01:52:04

The experience of being in all of our great King Jesus Christ that that is an experience that we would affirm and having having the experience of the blessing of a clear conscience before God All of these things we would experience.

01:52:20

It's when it's when experiences exceed biblical parameters that we throw up the red flag

01:52:29

Amen and just to follow up on BB's. I'm sorry.

01:52:34

That was Susan's question in Dauphin County Pennsylvania, I think that she was on to something in regard to we who are not in the orbit of Pentecostal ism or the charismatic movement we sometimes ignore the reality of demons and the demonic realm even though we would say with certainty that they exist we would say that Satan is a

01:53:00

Real creation that he that he does indeed exist. We tend to just not talk about it much or preach about it much and I think that she is on to something.

01:53:12

Don't you think that there can be a danger in? Whereas on the one hand you have charismatics

01:53:19

Some charismatics and some Pentecostals finding a demon under every rock you have reformed people

01:53:24

Just not addressing the issue. Don't you think that's dangerous and all of you both respond? Yeah Erring on either one of that either side of that spectrum

01:53:34

I think is a danger seeing a demon behind every every rock and bush And and never acknowledging the presence of anything supernatural

01:53:42

I think both of those are are equal errors on opposite sides of the spectrum And just I agree

01:53:51

I I agree with that there's a danger in in looking for a demon under every rock nook and cranny where it just isn't one but Uh, we've got to remember that the demons are real.

01:54:02

They do have power. They can influence, uh people Uh, they can tempt. Uh, so so they are real but as a christian

01:54:10

One who is in union with the lord jesus christ through the indwelling of the holy spirit of god Uh, we are a new creature in christ and and a demon satan cannot possess us cannot control us um and Greater is he who is within us who is than he who's in the world.

01:54:29

So Uh, there there are ditches on both of those both of those fronts We have let's see here we have christopher from suffolk county long island new york

01:54:44

Who says do you think that what makes these stories most compelling?

01:54:51

Is the fact that there are many? Christians and others who are aching with broken hearts

01:54:58

Because their loved ones have departed from this earth Whether they are saved or unsaved and out of missing them so greatly.

01:55:05

They wish to have some kind of Further proof that their loved one is in a place.

01:55:12

That's real Yeah piper actually alludes to that on a number of occasions in his book because He says that that's one of the glories of the privileges that he has now that he's come back as he gets to go around and And have people, uh, tell him, you know

01:55:27

I doubted this and i'm so comforted and I needed to be reassured that heaven is actually for real because i've lost somebody

01:55:33

And he tells a number of stories later on in his book that of of accounts that he's had of people who've come up and said that very thing and he takes it as a you know a badge of honor or Pride or however, you would say it that he gets to be the one to confirm

01:55:48

That to people and I would say that if somebody came up to me, I would just point them to scripture And that's ultimately where people need to be pointed back to is you can have this confidence of what?

01:55:58

Is happening to your loved one or where your loved one is because of what scripture says not because of what piper says not because of what burpo says

01:56:05

And not because of any experience of any person who has ever lived but because of the testimony of scripture

01:56:12

If if what jesus says about heaven does not Encourage people and give them confidence and and comfort

01:56:19

Then why would they think that piper or burpo can do the same? Well, why do they why would anybody think that they can offer such comfort?

01:56:26

They ought to look to the testimony of jesus Praise god. Well, I want you now jim and justin

01:56:32

To summarize in about a minute each what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners before we go off the air

01:56:39

Uh, well i'll go first since that way justin can't steal my thunder I would again point point your listeners back to the sufficiency of scripture

01:56:52

I I think that that's what this ultimately comes back to I don't know of a single Uh issue that plagues modern evangelicalism that cannot be traced back to at its root uh a lack of belief in uh, the sufficiency of scripture whether it is modern day prophets and revelations or uh, this the seeker sensitive movement or Pastors trying to entertain their flocks and get away from preaching and preach on the latest summer blockbuster or whether it's the

01:57:18

Gobbling up of the heaven tourism industry and the testimony there or even whether it is taking the testimony of demons and in thinking that that is somehow a source of authority for spiritual warfare all of the

01:57:31

All of the things that you've interviewed me about as well as all of the things that plague evangelicalism come back to The sufficiency of scripture we would point people back to the word to the testimony of the word and if the church in america and the church in our world could just Get grounded on what it means that god's word is enough.

01:57:46

It is sufficient It is pure holy and true and we can trust it Uh, and and that is enough to inform all of life and god's in us if we could get people back to that Uh most most of our problems and our false doctrines would disappear almost overnight and justin

01:58:03

I'll tell you I don't really know what I could add to that because it's exactly almost word for word what I was going to Say myself that the real battle today

01:58:09

Jumped in there before you had Uh, but that absolutely that is that is what jim and i'm both champions

01:58:18

The battle today is not so much over inerrancy that those even though those uh fires still smolder in pockets

01:58:24

But the real battle today is over the sufficiency of god's word is the scripture are the scriptures sufficient?

01:58:31

And unfortunately chris we are losing that battle big time today So the sufficiency of god's word so whether it's heaven tourism whether it's jesus colin sarah young any of these things anything that distracts

01:58:44

Our attention from the word of god is not the work of the author Of the word of god that is not of god.

01:58:51

That is a demonic distraction. Okay Well, I know that your websites, uh as far as jim osmond is concerned is kootenaychurch .org

01:58:59

k -o -o -t -e -n a -i Church .org and also truth or territory .com

01:59:08

truth or territory .com Justin peters. I know your website is justinpeters .org

01:59:14

Justin peters .org. I want to thank you both for being on the program. I look forward to many future

01:59:19

Return visits to eintrep and zion radio from both of you I want to thank everybody who listened especially those who took the time to write in questions

01:59:26

And I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that jesus christ is a far greater savior