Jeff Durbin Responds To Andy Stanley

Welcome back everybody to another episode of the dividing line. I am NOT. Dr. James White. I'm filling in for dr White right now. Second show in a row. If you want to check out the last show. Just go to AO men's page alpha to make his page on YouTube.

He probably already there right now and check out the first show we did on Monday.

No, you actually have to tell people who you are. Oh, that's right. Yes. We know who you're not. Hello. I'm Jeff Durbin.

Welcome to the dividing line. Jeff Durbin pastor of apology a church. You can go see my stuff at apology of studios calm and apology of studios on YouTube. We're actually doing some cross-pollination here.

So actually putting up on our stuff as well. So you guys get to see it over there? And so did a show on Monday and on Monday. I talked a bit about the referendum of the Eighth Amendment in Ireland. Was it much was it Tuesday?

This tells you. This tells you what my life is like right now the life of a pastor always busy I was I'm actually I'm actually I was worried about how I look today because I was up so late last night.

Dealing with pastoral things. So not a lot of sleep for this guy today. So yeah Tuesday We did a show and I talked about the referendum To the the Eighth Amendment in Ireland the legalization of abortion in Ireland.

Christian Epistemology and the Authority of Divine Revelation

I talked about the foundations of Epistemology that is a truly Christian theory of knowledge. Now some of you guys are checking out right now when you hear the word epistemology and theory of knowledge you think how does this?

Matter, how does it relate to me today in my life with my family my church the mission that God has me on. I want to tell you that it has everything to do with that. We talked about Epistemology we're talking about.

How do you know? What you know, what's the foundation for knowledge and Christians have a particular epistemology theory of knowledge a revelational epistemology that is to say that we believe that we can be certain or we can know things for sure or to be true because Fundamentally God has spoken.

God has stepped into time in history. He's reached out. He's touched us. He's spoken to us. He's revealed himself to us. And so on that basis Christians can say We know and so when we make knowledge claims as Christians, we're not making them on our own authority.

We're not basing them on our own pragmatism our own personal experiences our own just simply our own reasoning. We don't we're not rationalists in that sense when Christians say that we know something to be true or we believe something to be true.

We believe it based upon divine revelation. God has spoken in history. That's a distinctly Christian epistemology, there are other Forms of epistemology other people who want their day. And so you have rationalism.

We we know things based upon Reason human reason the tools of human reason laws of logic and those sorts of things you have of course other schools of thought. Of epistemology and how you can know things.

Scientism is big today. But you have the school of thought that is empiricism and that is to say I have to experience it. To know that it's real. I have to have to test it. I have to see it work and test it.

I have to observe it. So you have empiricism. You of course also have other forms of Epistemology and how people can know things to be certain or true and that is based upon personal experience. I've experienced this sort of a thing.

So it works for me. Mormonism is big on that these days. Well really always has been. I've prayed about it in my own personal experience. I know that it's true because I've prayed about it. And so when we talk about epistemology, how do you know something to be true?

And can we have any certainty? Christians do claim that we can know things for certain because God has revealed himself. So for example, just I mean bottom line I say this often just to try to get to the point quickly.

We can know the difference between whether we should love our neighbors as we love ourselves or whether we should eat our neighbors. That seems of course like a very big spectrum, but it really is Fundamental as Christians we can say with certainty that we ought to.

Morally ought to it's an absolute love our neighbors as we love ourselves and not actually eat our neighbors. Somebody might be saying as you watch this. Well kids in my really think that you know, you eat your neighbors and the answer to that is yes.

History is replete with examples of people who believe they can eat their neighbors. And today there are people who believe that you can eat your neighbors and there are people I don't recommend necessarily diving into this.

But there are documentaries out there that show modern cannibals that do believe that they can eat their neighbors. And so when we talk about a basic Christian epistemology, we're talking about foundations.

How do we know what we know? How do we know that it's true? On what basis do we make knowledge claims and for Christians? It's a revelational epistemology and you might be wondering like how did that wrap up into the discussion of the abortion issue in Ireland?

And I'm going to say that it has absolutely everything to do with it. Everything to do with it in this culture that we live in today in America and of course what's going on in Ireland when the fight ensues when the conflict rages when people are Face-to-face in conflict with each other.

It's a question of on what basis by what standard? Can you say something is true or ought to be the case and what I was decrying on Tuesday was The fact that we have unfortunately handed over the mission to save image bearers of God in the womb.

To criminalize the act of abortion. We've handed over that that mission that calling to people who have said on record. We have it on our own channel. Apologies to do as you can see the leaders of the pro-life movement in North America that have said very explicitly that They don't want to use the Bible as a foundation.

They believe that we should take a backdoor approach a more secular approach to fighting against the issue of abortion that we should not Use explicitly Christian terminology. We shouldn't talk about repentance.

We shouldn't talk about sin. We should talk about Jesus. We shouldn't have biblical definitions and examples that we use and we talk about fighting against the culture of death. So, for example, I mentioned Tobias.

She's the head of the National Right to Life the president we had an interview with her at a national conference and she said that she and other women in the movement believe that the women who have abortions are as much victims as The children who are killed in abortion that's not a biblical definition and that is certainly not based upon a Christian view of knowledge and morality ethical appeals.

And so we've handed over this fight Unfortunately to a pro-life movement that refuses to have a distinctly Christian epistemology. And we're fighting against the culture of death. On what basis do we fight?

What do we say? Are we just appealing to human reason? Are we appealing like the left does and the pro-choicers do to emotions making mere emotional appeals like Man, I know, you know, we want it to be safe legal and rare.

Why they would want that to be true is odd strange. We don't talk that way about the removal of say warts that we want wart removal to be safe legal and rare. Okay, of course. Why do we say it about abortion?

It's interesting. But when we talk about abortion people will say things like, you know, but what if she was raped? You know I just watched a matter of fact just did a Episode of apology a radio where we played some of the debates that were taking place before the referendum and of course Six minutes in we're right at it.

What's the what's the other side the pro-death side saying they're saying? Yeah, but what about you know, if a girl was raped by her father? I mean, you know what we can do about that and culture and society really think she should carry the baby to term.

And what we've done is we've handed over that that that whole argument. Based upon an emotional appeal rather than just sticking to the brute biblical facts. This is an image bearer of God. It has inherent value and dignity and worth because it reflects the inherent value and dignity and worth.

Infinite worth of the eternal God. This is a human being made in the Imago Dei and God commands us Not to murder he commands mothers and fathers not to murder their children. This is a God kind of issue and and of course you can do the internal critique.

Proverbs 24 26 sorry 4 through 5 says don't answer the fool according to their folly. Or you'll be like them that is to say don't answer like them. Don't take their presuppositions. Don't stand on their position.

Don't act like them. Stand on the Word of God be committed to the Word of God or you're gonna be like them and then it says don't answer the fool according to their folly lest they be wise in their own conceit so you can of course step into their position and Demonstrate that it doesn't work.

For example, the rape argument using a Christian epistemology I want to oppose that on the basis of the Word of God and say that Because I believe in God's revelation and I have his word at my feet I can say that that's an image bearer of God in the womb and you morally cannot kill it.

You ought not do so. And I can say by stepping into their system with a Christian epistemology I can do an internal critique and I could say the interesting thing here is that you're using my Presuppositions to make an emotional appeal you're acting like rape is wrong.

Like it's some moral atrocity that it's something that people ought not do and you don't get to have that. You don't get to have that if you abandon God because rape isn't morally repugnant. It's not Something that we can be morally indignant about if we don't have the biblical worldview at our feet if Christ isn't the center.

Then rape isn't really morally wrong. It's something people do to one another in this time and chance universe. It's just stuff banging around. So there's no moral responsibility. I have not to rate might be uncomfortable.

It might affect people's nervous systems. People might not like it, but it's not morally wrong as Richard Dawkins says. The universe as it is today shows that there is no good there is no evil only blind and pitiless indifference as Will Provine Professor of biology at Cornell said there is no imminent morality.

That is to say there's no real morality. This is an illusion. There's no imminent morality. We live we die and we're gone. We're absolutely gone when we die. That is the unbelieving atheistic worldview.

You don't get to have rape as morally Atrocious unless of course you borrow from my god to do it. But also it's interesting because we live in a culture in the West that has this Christian heritage and root to it.

So much respect for the Word of God. It was just in the atmosphere that we used to actually believe that rape was such a horrific crime. That if true if it actually took place that God sees that as a crime that's worthy of the death penalty capital punishment.

That's how God viewed rape and a just penalty for rape because no harmony can be brought to that situation. It's not like paying somebody back something you stole from them to make them whole again. This is a crime like murder that you can't bring harmony in and the only thing that God said was a just penalty for rape.

It's so terrible that it deserves a death penalty. And so I believe that it's morally wrong because God has spoken to it. And I know what God says in terms of justice in his word in the Old Testament.

But what's interesting here is that the pro abort Abortion side will say things like well, you're inconsistent because you say you're pro-life. But you believe in things like the death penalty and the answer is internal critique.

Oh, no. We both believe in the death penalty you see I happen to know the difference as a Christian between a victim and a perpetrator and that's why I believe what I believe about that and. But the fact matter is we actually both believe in death penalty.

See I believe in the death penalty. For the person who goes so far to do something so immoral and evil to rape a woman. You believe in the death penalty for the child. See, we both believe in the death penalty.

You believe that the innocent victim of the rape deserves a death penalty. I believe that the person who perpetrated the crime deserves the death penalty. You believe the victim deserves it. So that's an internal critique.

BC the point of this discussion in terms of epistemology and foundations is we have to demonstrate I think to the culture at large Christian culture at large that we have to get back to a rigorous commitment to the Word of God as the foundation of our lives.

I'm talking about personal and interpersonal relationships. I'm talking about church life. The Word of God should be the standard by which we make decisions as a church in terms of church Government in terms of church programs in terms of missions.

We ought not just simply be creative. Right just simply creative because way like we're the first to take a shot at this thing. I remember years ago I was being asked to be a part of a large Baptist denomination.

Lots of promises were being made to us. We were a struggling and young church and so it was appealing and so we were hanging out with a lot of these churches and I remember being at a local meeting with about I don't know 12 or 15 local churches big churches.

I'm talking big big churches and they wanted to have us break up to to have a discussion about Church government and how to sort of organize things and and and keep church order. And so they said break up into groups and we like you guys to talk about how to organize as a local church.

Maybe as a church plant, how do you organize your body? How do you organize church government? And how do you organize keep church order? How do you do that? So I was kind of excited about the about the about the experiment.

And so we all broke up into our groups went to separate tables and I have to tell you that I was so grieved. About three to five minutes into this process. I was grieved because I sat at a table with people I didn't know from local churches from all over the valley and As people were trying to discover how should we plan a church and how should we organize and keep order and do church government?

I noticed that not one person at this table. Not a one not one. That's not exaggeration. Not one person was opening their Bibles and pointing to passages about how God says to do this. God says this is how we're gonna set up our church.

God says this is the role of pastor elder. You know, none of that. It was very much sort of like what do you think? Let's get creative. What do you think? How do you think you should set that up? Well, what do you what it what's what's your.

What's your model? What do you think that model should be? What do you think? And I was so discouraged and I don't mean this in any way to be too arrogant or haughty. You know like somehow saying I know it all and I was the I was the black sheep.

That was just you know, the the Puritan and the bunch or something like that. I mean it was discouraging to see Churches large churches and their staff their leadership sitting around tables being given a task an experiment and and the question Comes to how do you do this?

Is it because God says. Because God has spoken and he's given us our marching orders. God has decreed it. God has spoken it prescribed it. Do we step on to that and say it's because of this you see Christian this Christian epistemology this question of the theory of knowledge Goes to my personal life.

It goes to my family. It goes to my church. It goes to the culture round about us. How do we actually engage the culture around us? This is a Significant Issue it means so much and in terms of how we come into conflict with the world today.

We all know you I mean unless you're asleep or you've got your head buried in the sand. You know that our culture is going crazy right now. I remember watching the dividing line listening to the dividing line back around 2002 2003 somewhere's around there and I remember dr White started getting into this habit of sort of talking about the fact that he had a folder.

That he used to sort of put stuff in for you know, like Articles and stuff of just the culture going mad and he was giving warnings then. Not knowing how much longer we have Before this thing goes completely out of control and I told I've told James before that, you know I don't know that I took him seriously and he said, you know, I don't know that myself seriously.

But it's amazing the breakneck speed that we're going as a culture in society. And I want to say no matter what you believe about the future. We have to say as Christians that we have an obligation Before the Lord to be a light and testimony to the culture around us to speak the truth in love.

To the world around us in an effort to lead people to Jesus. That is our responsibility no matter the circumstance God has us in whether he has us in the garden or whether he has us in The desert our responsibility is to be light to the world around us.

And the question is how? How are we gonna be light to the world around us? Are we gonna be creative? Are we just gonna try to lean on our own autonomous? Arguments personal experience. Emotional arguments.

Or are we going to stand on the word of the Living God when we see sin? Wherever we see it whether it's in the church whether it's in family life whether it's in government and Unjust laws and sort of the oppressive tyranny that's now being pushed upon Christians in the in the West.

Do we respond? You know just Just out of anger and and might and do we respond with just our own reason and or do we appeal to Western tradition? You know, hey, we knows the this is the culture of the West.

We're we're America or or do we appeal always and in every circumstance to the words of the Living God? Is it our responsibility to be creative? Is it our responsibility to lean on our own understanding and just make creative?

Arguments based upon our own personal experience or preferences or is it our responsibility as Christians to live prophetically in the culture? That God has us in to speak the truth and love and that is to say to speak the truth the words of the Living God and If somebody says well, that's just uncomfortable.

I don't really like that methodology because see what's the problem. The problem is the culture around us doesn't accept the Word of God. They don't believe what he has to say and I want to say that never stop Jesus.

Never stopped any biblical prophet Culture they were living and they didn't stop it didn't stop them from standing the words of the Living God. Didn't stop Daniel in Babylon didn't stop Jesus didn't stop Paul by the way In a pagan culture and society that he lived in from resting his arguments upon the words of the Living God the revelation Of God you see it might be uncomfortable for us in the culture that we live in to actually stand on a consistent Christian position because the world doesn't accept it.

I think we have to recognize that God says God says in his word. He says Romans 1 the gospel is the power of God for salvation. That's the means that God uses to bring dead people to life open the eyes of the blind to give hearing to deaf deaf people and I want to say that if we look in the Book of Acts and we check out that methodology that the Apostles are using Filled with the Spirit of God Christ is dead risen and ascended to heaven now.

Their new covenant is running and it's an operation and they're preaching the gospel. You see the Apostles preaching the gospel and There are consequences. They're not living for comfort. Paul says in Galatians chapter 1 He says am I a slave to men or to God?

If I was a slave to men, I would not be he says am I trying to please men or to please God if I was Trying to please men. I would not be the slave of Jesus. He says that in a context where he's saying some hard things to the church in Galatia.

But when you look in the book of Acts Acts chapter 9 the Apostle Paul comes to Christ takes a beeline to Damascus and he's immediately arguing with the Jews in their own synagogues. You say Oh praise God Paul.

Way to be an apostle way to be way to be a messenger way way to be faithful. Well, yeah, but I mean think about the consequence of living like that, right? That's some difficult abrasive Confrontational mission work and what happens is it says that the church is built up they experience peace.

They were multiplied and it says some people wanted to kill him. You got people Actually making oaths that they're not going to eat anything. Until they actually kill the Apostle Paul or the Apostles go into a place to preach the gospel and a riot ensues a whole riot breaks out because of preaching the gospel or they're preaching the gospel under threat of of.

Of a punishment by the civil magistrate. Don't we told you not to preach in this name anymore. And and what is the what is the the word from the inspired Apostle? He says we must obey God rather than men and as soon as they're told don't speak in this name anymore.

They get a beating and they go out rejoicing that they were counted worthy to suffer for Jesus sake. So they're told don't do this that's a command from the magistrate don't do it and they are taking a beating.

Rejoice and that God would even count them worthy to suffer in Jesus name and they continue to preach the gospel. And I ask the question Are we following in the culture that we live in today? Are we following the pattern and model that God has laid out for us in terms of what effective spirit led and filled?

Evangelism looks like in a pagan culture because you see I think to be fair. We have to say Well, those were inspired Apostles. Yes, but they had the same Spirit of God filling them. That's fills us today.

They had the same gospel and message that we have today, but they also to be fair to them. They lived in a pagan culture, too. They were surrounded by pagans paganism everywhere. Temples to goddesses and all these things and priests and orgies and all these things that took place.

It was all it was ever people, you know killing their children in Rome. I mean there was conflict in Rome where some emperors were like, you know. You can't kill your baby and some were saying yes, you can people letting their children die of exposure.

I mean this this is nothing new to the Christian Church. We have always been engaged in a conflict with the world and very heavy opposition. But the question has to be asked by what standard do we fight against these things?

I'm gonna argue it's the words of the Living God. When Jesus I said Jesus on Tuesday had a conflict with the people of his day where they were taking what was seen essentially by them as a divine tradition in Mark 7.

And and they're bringing it against Jesus saying how can your disciples aren't following a tradition of the elders? Jesus. He could have appealed to his own authority He's God and he did sometimes just appeal to his own authority I say to you but Jesus there when there's a conflict two different claims truth claims made he says Moses says so the words Word of God says but you say he says thus you invalidate the Word of God you Invalidate the Word of God for the sake of your tradition.

So Jesus actually takes their tradition compares it to scripture and says God's Word says this and so you are making God's Word void. For the sake of your tradition when Jesus had a conflict between two claims or two worldviews He went right back to the words of the Living God and wouldn't you know it?

That's because he's our perfect representative in our righteousness. He's the law keeper that we are not and in the Old Testament. You see that as the pattern in the model God says Thus saith the Lord.

I wonder if that means much to us today. Thus saith the Lord that was that was what they rested on. That's what they hung everything on. Thus saith the Lord. Now that might be embarrassing to modern evangelicals today to say God says and that's it.

But for the writers of the Old New Testament for the biblical prophets for Jesus. That was where it was at. They'll say the Lord Deuteronomy 13. I mentioned it on Tuesday. I'll just say one last time God gives them a test to test false prophets Deuteronomy 13 1 through 4.

Even if they're signs and wonders even if the ministry looks legit looks like it's from God, but if he leads you after other gods Gods, which you have not known. That's how you know, he's a false prophet.

So God says this I've revealed myself. This is who I am if somebody comes and they contradict what I've said about myself. That's how you know. That's how we test false prophets and false teachers, but I want to say that's how we test every truth claim.

Does it match up to God's word. John 17 17 Jesus says in his high priestly prayer father sanctify them in your truth. Thy Word is truth. It's the plumb line. It's the measure. It's what you use to measure.

It's the standard if you're building something and you drop that plumb line. That's the standard if the wall is off. You don't bend the plumb line to get to the wall. You take the wall and say it's not right and you bend it back and that's exactly what Jesus are referring to Isaiah 8 20 I mentioned on Tuesday to the law and to the testimony if they don't speak according to this word.

It's because they have no light in them. Maybe we're not effective. Well, I have to always say this because we're good. We're good Calvinist here. God is sovereign and he's judging our nations. Why is it happening around us because he's judging our nations.

That's why but it's not just it's not living in a vacuum. God's just judging our nations and that's all nothing led up to that. Of course. God's been working the whole time. He's in the heavens and he does whatever he pleases.

But there's always a means to that end right and how come we're not so effective today. Could it could it be is it possible that we're not as effective today in the 21st century evangelical West? Because we've abandoned the commitments and the standard that our forebears stood on they were effective because Was assumed wasn't a perfect utopia.

They wasn't in utopia. They had their sins do it too. But how come you see such a contrast between cultures between the old culture and the new how come? Well, I would argue in many respects is because those people stood in the words of God assumed it proclaimed it and weren't ashamed.

We seem to be ashamed of the Word of God in the culture that we live in today because we don't want to offend anybody. Well, they don't really accept the words of God. So maybe I need to find a new route to convince this person to come to Jesus and I want to just say this.

Nobody comes to Jesus nobody apart from the Spirit's work. God's electing grace and His power in the gospel through a faithful proclamation of his truth. Nobody comes to God apart from God's good news coming into their life and the good news doesn't come into anybody's life.

Nobody's without first order. Important things coming loaded up front and that is what God is holy and you are not. Right. God is good. And we're not we're sinners against a holy God. We violated his law and that's why you need Jesus.

You can't get people to see that Jesus is the supreme treasure if You abandon him as the supreme treasure. You can't get people to submit to Christ's Ultimate authority if when you reason with them you abandon his authority to do it.

Jesus is worth your whole life. But when I argue for the Christian message, I argue in a way where he's not worth my whole life. Maybe he's not really the Messiah. Maybe he doesn't have ultimate authority.

Hey, let's play neutrality and see if we can get to God, right? Something something Vantil Used to talk about. I think it's important in terms of how we try to get people to to God to either believe in God.

Or to believe in his truth. Oftentimes we'll build a ladder right to get to to get to God either the existence of God or some truth from God. We'll build this ladder and we have different rungs, right?

Like I'll use this evidence and maybe this emotional appeal and maybe this argument and this historical argument and Let's get that ladder to get him to God. And the problem is is that when we get him there to the true biblical God.

If we're coming to the true God We'll realize we never needed the ladder in the first place. Because when we get to him, we realize he always had the ultimate authority. His authority was already self attesting he was already the foundation of all truth and knowledge and.

So that's not to say and then don't don't misunderstand this. I think some people did on Tuesday I just saw a couple comments. It's not to say that we don't believe in evidence. It's not to say we don't believe in laws of logic and reason and ethics and all those different things and those arguments.

That's that's not to say that we're actually arguing that you don't get science laws of logic or ethical appeals. Period if you don't start with the self attesting authority of the living God laws of logic are Meaningless apart from the biblical worldview.

How do you justify appeals to? Immaterial invariant universal Abstract truths like the laws of logic with an atheistic view of the world. All they believe is matter in motion. We're all materialists right naturalistic materialist and materialism.

You don't get immaterial universal invariant laws when all that exists is the material realm and in terms of Science you don't get science and things that can be tested. You don't get uniformity and nature and induction.

You don't get the future being like the past apart from the sovereign God who governs it and in terms of ethical appeals. If you don't start with the biblical God, you don't get the image of God. You don't get absolute standards of morality.

You don't get the very character of God to base everything off of his eternal Unchanging character, so we're arguing for is the entire thing Jesus is at the center of it all we start all of our thinking we start all of our knowledge.

With God at the center. He's the foundation God has spoken and I think that that needs to be understood in all of life. It matters for everything again for Christian praxis. How do you how do you talk to your kids?

Let's do it this way. Let's make this intensely personal. How do you talk to your kids moms and dads? When when you and I are Raising our children up and we tell them that they ought not do something on What basis do you tell them that they shouldn't do that thing?

Well, if you're like me when that conversation starts you point them first to God and his authority. You say God says Honor your father and your mother. God says that you're to love your neighbor as you love yourself this conflict.

That's happening between you and your sister right now. The problem here is you're not loving her like you love yourself. You're not loving her in the way that Jesus loves us. Love does no harm to its neighbor.

You see what I'm saying? We appeal to the words of God as Ultimate with our children in our homes and with ourselves. How come you don't watch internet pornography? It's because it's uncomfortable. Is it just because the consequences is because you're gonna get caught.

How come you don't because if watch if it's for those reasons I love JC Riles book holiness, and he drives that point home. If you're not doing those things because you're afraid of getting caught you're afraid of the consequences.

Then that's not really holy. That's not truly righteous. So why don't you and I go down that route? How come we're not pursuing that lifestyle? I would imagine That we do it because God says. Because he calls it adultery.

Because he calls it sexually immoral and he tells us not to do it. Well, I'm saying what I'm saying is we need to take that standard we have as Christians throughout our entire lives and we apply that across the board to everything and I think a faithful witness with the words of the Living God is what God uses to bring people to life.

By his spirit through his gospel. He saves people but he doesn't do it without his word. He doesn't do it without truth now that brings me to a Bit of Andy Stanley, I know that Dr. White did touch on this a bit and I really enjoyed that.

It was it was it was a really a blessing to hear. But I thought that this is something that connects to so much of what's wrong around us in our culture. And in terms what we have to face and be ready to confront I want to say that I want to have love for this man.

He professes faith in Jesus. But the commentary that he gives in his message online, it's called aftermath Part 3 not difficult. Andy Stanley the message that he has for Christians is Awful, it's it's deplorable.

It's it's not true. It is contradictory. It is inherently contradictory. It is contradictory to the words of the Living God. It's contradictory to New Testament theology. It is does not fit the soteriology of the entire Bible and I think it's destructive.

I Got from it and I tried to listen to it with an open mind. I got from it that we need to as Christians today to disassociate ourselves from the Old Testament revelation. He actually argues from the whole world view.

He makes a point based upon the text in the book of Acts and the conflict that was going on there. Where James is presiding over this this council? He makes the point that. Well, let's do this. I'll play through it.

I'm only gonna play about 12 minutes of it, but I'm gonna stop at points and just sort of work through it. This is Andy Stanley starting at around 20 minutes. Even that good at this. Why in the world would we try to get a group of people who did not grow up in our culture?

Grow up with our background how in the world are we going to get them to accept all these laws all these rules and all? These customs. I mean if that's what they have to do to become a follower of Jesus.

Come on guys. How realistic is That and then What comes next is so subtle. I mean it is so subtle. But it is so important for where we're going and where I hope that you'll go especially if you're someone who's losing or has lost Faith he says to this group of Jewish Jesus following people some are ready to just follow Jesus and leave the Old Covenant behind others are trying to mix and match Moses and Jesus he says no so important we believe Us Jesus following Jews, we believe that it is through the grace.

See when you read the Old Testament. When you read the Old Covenant when you read the story of Israel when you read the prophets of Israel. You don't see much of this. It's I will if you will. I will if you will I will.