Jeff Durbin Responds To Andy Stanley

Alpha & Omega Ministries

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Hi, welcome back everybody to another episode of the dividing line. I am NOT dr.

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James White. I'm filling in for dr White right now second show in a row if you want to check out the last show

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Just go to a o men's page off of the mega's page on YouTube He probably already there right now and check out the first show we did on Monday No, you actually have to tell people who you are.

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Oh, that's right. Yes. You know who you're not. Hello. I'm Jeff Durbin Welcome to the dividing line.

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I'm Jeff Durbin pastor of apology a church You can go see my stuff at apology of studios comm and apology of studios on YouTube We're actually doing some cross pollination here.

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So actually putting up on our stuff as well So you guys get to see it over there? And so did a show on Monday and on Monday.

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I talked a bit about the referendum of the Eighth Amendment in Ireland Was it much was it

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Tuesday? This tells you This tells you what my life is like right now the life of a pastor

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Always busy. I was I'm actually I mean actually I was worried about how I look today because I was up so late last night

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Dealing with pastoral things. So not a lot of sleep for this guy today. So yeah Tuesday We did a show and I talked about the referendum

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To the the Eighth Amendment in Ireland the legalization of abortion in Ireland. I talked about the foundations of Epistemology that is a truly

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Christian theory of knowledge Now some of you guys are checking out right now when you hear the word epistemology and theory of knowledge you think how does this?

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Matter, how does it relate to me today in my life with my family my church the mission that God has me on I want to tell you that it has everything to do with that.

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We talked about Epistemology we're talking about. How do you know? What you know, what's the foundation for knowledge and Christians have a particular epistemology theory of knowledge a revelational epistemology that is to say that we believe that we can be certain or we can know things for sure or to be true because Fundamentally God has spoken.

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God has stepped into time in history. He's reached out. He's touched us. He's spoken to us He's revealed himself to us.

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And so on that basis Christians can say We know and so when we make knowledge claims as Christians, we're not making them on our own authority

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We're not basing them on our own pragmatism our own personal experiences our own just simply our own reasoning

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We don't we're not rationalist in that sense when Christians say that we know something to be true or we believe something to be true

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We believe it based upon divine revelation. God has spoken in history.

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That's a distinctly Christian epistemology, there are other Forms of epistemology other people who want their day

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And so you have rationalism We we know things based upon Reason human reason the tools of human reason laws of logic and those sorts of things you have of course other schools of thought

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Of epistemology and how you can know things Scientism is big today But you have the school of thought that is empiricism and that is to say

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I have to experience it To know that it's real. I have to have to test it. I have to see it work and test it

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I have to observe it. So you have empiricism. You of course also have other forms of Epistemology and how people can know things to be certain or true and that is based upon personal experience

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I've experienced this sort of a thing. So it works for me Mormonism is big on that these days.

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Well really always has been I've prayed about it in my own personal experience I know that it's true because I've prayed about it.

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And so when we talk about epistemology How do you know something to be true? And can we have any certainty?

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Christians do claim that we can know things for certain because God has revealed himself So for example, just I mean bottom line

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I say this often just to try to get to the point quickly We can know the difference between whether we should love our neighbors as we love ourselves or whether we should eat our neighbors

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That seems of course like a very big spectrum, but it really is Fundamental as Christians we can say with certainty that we ought to Morally ought to it's an absolute love our neighbors as we love ourselves and not actually eat our neighbors

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Somebody might be saying as you watch this Well kids in my really think that you know, you eat your neighbors and the answer to that is yes

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History is replete with examples of people who believe they can eat their neighbors And today there are people who believe that you can eat your neighbors and there are people

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I don't recommend necessarily diving into this But there are documentaries out there that show modern cannibals that do believe that they can eat their neighbors

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And so when we talk about a basic Christian epistemology, we're talking about foundations

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How do we know what we know? How do we know that it's true? On what basis do we make knowledge claims and for Christians?

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It's a revelational epistemology and you might be wondering like how did that wrap up into the discussion of the abortion issue in Ireland?

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And I'm going to say that it has absolutely everything to do with it Everything to do with it in this culture that we live in today in America and of course what's going on in Ireland when the fight ensues when the conflict rages when people are

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Face -to -face in conflict with each other. It's a question of on what basis by what standard?

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Can you say something is true or ought to be the case and what I was decrying on Tuesday was

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The fact that we have unfortunately handed over the mission to save image bearers of God in the womb

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To criminalize the act of abortion We've handed over that that mission that calling to people who have said on record

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We have it on our own channel As you can see the leaders of the pro -life movement in North America that have said very explicitly that They don't want to use the

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Bible as a foundation They believe that we should take a backdoor approach a more secular approach to fighting against the issue of abortion that we should not

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Use explicitly Christian terminology. We shouldn't talk about repentance. We shouldn't talk about sin. We should talk about Jesus We shouldn't have biblical definitions and examples that we use and we talk about fighting against the culture of death

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So for example, I mentioned Tobias. She's the head of the National Right to Life the president we had an interview with her at a national conference and she said that she and other women in the movement believe that the women who have abortions are as much victims as The children who are killed in abortion

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That's not a biblical definition. And that is certainly not based upon a Christian view of knowledge and morality ethical appeals

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And so we've handed over this fight Unfortunately to a pro -life movement that refuses to have a distinctly

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Christian epistemology And we're fighting against the culture of death on what basis do we fight?

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What do we say? Are we just appealing to human reason are we appealing like the left does and the pro -choicers do to emotions?

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making mere emotional appeals like Man, I know, you know, we want it to be safe legal and rare Why they would want that to be true is odd strange

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We don't talk that way about the removal of say warts that we want wart removal to be safe legal and rare Okay, of course.

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Why do we say it about abortion? It's interesting But when we talk about abortion people will say things like, you know, but what if she was raped?

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You know, I just watched a matter of fact Just did a episode of apology a radio where we played some of the debates that were taking place before the referendum and of course

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Six minutes in we're right at it. What's the what's the other side the pro -death side saying they're saying?

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Yeah, but what about you know, if a girl was raped by her father? I mean, you know what we can do about that and culture and society really think she should carry the baby to term

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And what we've done is we've handed over that that that whole argument Based upon an emotional appeal rather than just sticking to the brute biblical facts

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This is an image bearer of God It has inherent value and dignity and worth because it reflects the inherent value and dignity and worth

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Infinite worth of the eternal God. This is a human being made in the Imago Dei and God commands us

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Not to murder he commands mothers and fathers not to murder their children This is a

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God kind of issue and and and of course you can do the internal critique Proverbs 24 26 sorry 4 through 5 says don't answer the fool according to their folly

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Or you'll be like them that is to say don't answer like them. Don't take their presuppositions.

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Don't stand on their position Don't act like them Stand on the Word of God be committed to the

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Word of God or you're gonna be like them And then it says don't answer the fool according to their folly lest they be wise in their own conceit

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So you can't of course step into their position and demonstrate that it doesn't work For example the rape arguments using a

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Christian epistemology I want to oppose that on the basis of the Word of God and say that Because I believe in God's revelation and I have his word at my feet

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I can say that that's an image bearer of God in the womb and you morally cannot kill it.

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You ought not do so And I can say by stepping into their system with a

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Christian epistemology I can do an internal critique and I could say the interesting thing here is that you're using my presuppositions

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To make an emotional appeal you're acting like rape is wrong Like it's some moral atrocity that it's something that people ought not do and you don't get to have that You don't get to have that if you abandon

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God because rape isn't morally repugnant. It's not Something that we can be morally indignant about if we don't have the biblical worldview at our feet if Christ isn't the center

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Then rape isn't really morally wrong. It's something people do to one another in this time and chance universe

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It's just stuff banging around. So there's no moral responsibility. I have not to rape might be uncomfortable

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It might affect people's nervous systems. People might not like it, but it's not morally wrong as Richard Dawkins says

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And the universe as it is today shows that there is no good there is no evil only blind and pitiless indifference as Will Provine Professor of biology at Cornell said there is no imminent morality.

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That is to say there's no real morality This is an illusion. There's no imminent morality. We live we die and we're gone.

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We're absolutely gone when we die That is the unbelieving atheistic worldview.

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You don't get to have rape as morally atrocious Unless of course you borrow from my

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God to do it But also it's interesting because we live in a culture in the West that has this

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Christian heritage and root to it So much respect for the Word of God It was just in the atmosphere that we used to actually believe that rape was such a horrific crime

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That if true if it actually took place that God sees that as a crime that's worthy of the death penalty capital punishment

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That's how God viewed rape and a just penalty for rape because no harmony can be brought to that situation

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It's not like paying somebody back something you stole from them to make them whole again This is a crime like murder that you can't bring harmony in and the only thing that God said was a just penalty for rape

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It's so terrible that it deserves a death penalty And so I believe that it's morally wrong because God has spoken to it

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And I know what God says in terms of justice in his word in the Old Testament But what's interesting here is that the pro abort

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Abortion side will say things like well, you're inconsistent because you say you're pro -life But you believe in things like the death penalty and the answer is internal critique.

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Oh, no We both believe in the death penalty you see I happen to know the difference as a

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Christian between a victim and a perpetrator and that's why I believe what

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I believe about that and But the fact matter is we actually both believe in death penalty see I believe in death penalty

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For the person who goes so far to do something so immoral and evil to rape a woman

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You believe in the death penalty for the child See, we both believe in the death penalty.

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You believe that the innocent victim of the rape deserves the death penalty I believe that the person who perpetrated the crime deserves the death penalty.

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You believe the victim deserves it So that's an internal critique BC the point of this discussion in terms of epistemology and foundations is we have to demonstrate

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I think to the culture at large Christian culture at large that we have to get back to a rigorous commitment to the

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Word of God as the foundation of our lives I'm talking about personal and interpersonal relationships

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I'm talking about church life The Word of God should be the standard by which we make decisions as a church in terms of church

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Government in terms of church programs in terms of missions. We ought not just simply be creative Right just simply creative because way like we're the first to take a shot at this thing.

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I remember years ago. I was being asked to be a part of a large

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Baptist denomination Lots of promises were being made to us

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We were struggling in young church And so it was appealing and so we were hanging out with a lot of these churches and I remember being at a local meeting

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With about I don't know 12 or 15 local churches big churches I'm talking big big churches and they wanted to have us break up to to have a discussion about church government and how to sort of organize things and and and keep church order and So they said break up into groups and we like you guys to talk about how to organize as a local church

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Maybe as a church plant. How do you organize your body? How do you organize church government? And how do you organize keep church order?

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How do you do that? So I was kind of excited about the about the about the experiments and so we all broke up into our groups went to separate tables and I have to tell you that I was so grieved

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About three to five minutes into this process. I was grieved because I sat at a table of people

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I didn't know from local churches from all over the valley and As people were trying to discover how should we plan a church and how should we organize and keep order and do church government?

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I noticed that not one person at this table Not a one not one.

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That's not exaggeration Not one person was opening their Bibles and pointing to passages about how

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God says to do this God says this is how we're gonna set up our church. God says this is the role of pastor elder

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You know, none of that. It was very much sort of like what do you guys think? Let's get creative.

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What do you think? How do you think you should set that up? Well, what do you what it what's what's your What's your model? What do you think that model should be?

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What do you think? And I was so discouraged and I don't mean this in any way to be too arrogant or haughty

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You know like somehow saying I know it all and I was the I was the black sheep That was just you know, the the

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Puritan and the bunch or something like that. I mean it was discouraging to see Churches large churches and their staff their leadership sitting around tables being given a task an experiment and and the question

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Comes to how do you do this? Is it because God says

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Because God has spoken and he's given us our marching orders. God has decreed it.

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God has spoken it prescribed it Do we step on to that and say it's because of this you see Christian this

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Christian epistemology this question of the theory of knowledge Goes to my personal life. It goes to my family.

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It goes to my church. It goes to the culture round about us How do we actually engage the culture around us? This is a

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Significant Issue it means so much and in terms of how we come into conflict with the world today

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We all know you I mean unless you're asleep or you've got your head buried in the sand You know that our culture is going crazy right now.

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I remember watching the dividing line listening to the dividing line back around 2002 2003 somewhere's around there and I remember dr

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White started getting into this habit of sort of talking about the fact that he had a folder that he used to sort of put stuff in for you know, like Articles and stuff of just the culture going mad and he was giving warnings then

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Not knowing how much longer we have before this thing goes completely out of control And I told

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I've told James before that, you know, I don't know that I took him seriously and he said, you know I don't know that took myself seriously, but it's amazing the breakneck speed that we're going as a culture in society

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And I want to say no matter what you believe about the future We have to say as Christians that we have an obligation

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Before the Lord to be a light and testimony to the culture around us To speak the truth in love to the world around us in an effort to lead people to Jesus That is our responsibility

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No matter the circumstance God has us in whether he has us in the garden or whether he has us in the desert

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Our responsibility is to be light to the world around us. And the question is how?

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How are we gonna be light to the world around us? Are we gonna be creative? Are we just gonna try to lean on our own autonomous?

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arguments personal experience Emotional arguments or are we going to stand on the word of the

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Living God when we see sin? wherever we see it whether it's in the church whether it's in family life whether it's in government and Unjust laws and sort of the oppressive tyranny that's now being pushed upon Christians in the in the

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West. Do we respond? you know just Just out of anger and and might and do we respond with just our own reason and or do we appeal to Western tradition?

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You know, hey, we knows the this is the culture of the West We're we're America or or do we appeal always and in every circumstance to the words of the

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Living God? Is it our responsibility to be creative? Is it our responsibility to lean on our own understanding and just make creative?

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Arguments based upon our own personal experience or preferences or is it our responsibility as Christians to live prophetically in the culture?

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That God has us in to speak the truth and love and that is to say to speak the truth the words of the

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Living God and If somebody says well, that's just uncomfortable I don't really like that methodology because see what's the problem.

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The problem is the culture around us doesn't accept the Word of God They don't believe what he has to say and I want to say that never stop

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Jesus Never stopped any biblical prophet Culture they were living and they didn't stop it didn't stop them from standing the words of the

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Living God Didn't stop Daniel in Babylon didn't stop Jesus didn't stop Paul by the way in a pagan culture and society that he lived in from resting his arguments upon the words of the

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Living God the revelation of God you see it might be uncomfortable for us in the culture that we live in to actually stand on a

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Consistent Christian position because the world doesn't accept it. I Think we have to recognize that God says

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God says in his word. He says Romans 1 the gospel is the power of God for salvation

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That's the means that God uses to bring dead people to life open the eyes of the blind to give hearing to deaf deaf people and I want to say that if we look in the

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Book of Acts and we check out that Methodology that the Apostles are using Filled with the

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Spirit of God Christ is dead risen and ascended to heaven now Their new covenant is running and it's an operation.

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I'm not preaching the gospel. You see the Apostles preaching the gospel and There are consequences

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They're not living for comfort. Paul says in Galatians chapter 1 He says am I a slave to men or to God if I was a slave to men?

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I would not be he says am I trying to please men or to please God if I was trying to please men? I would not be the slave of Jesus He says that in a context where he's saying some hard things to the church in Galatia But when you look in the book of Acts Acts chapter 9 the

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Apostle Paul comes to Christ takes a beeline to Damascus and he's immediately arguing with the Jews in their own synagogues

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You say Oh praise God Paul Way to be an apostle way to be way to be a messenger way way to be faithful Well, yeah, but I mean think about the consequence of living like that, right?

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That's some difficult abrasive Confrontational mission work and what happens is it says that the church is built up they experience peace

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They were multiplied and it says some people wanted to kill him. You got people Actually making oaths that they're not going to eat anything

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Until they actually kill the Apostle Paul or the Apostles go into a place to preach the gospel and a riot ensues a whole riot breaks out because of preaching the gospel or they're preaching the gospel under threat of of Of a punishment by the civil magistrate don't we told you not to preach in this name anymore

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And and what is the what is the the word from the inspired Apostle?

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He says we must obey God rather than men and as soon as they're told don't speak in this name anymore

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They get a beating and they go out rejoicing that they were counted worthy to suffer for Jesus sake

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So they're told don't do this that's a command from the magistrate don't do it and they are taking a beating

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Rejoicing that God would even count them worthy to suffer in Jesus name and they continue to preach the gospel and I asked the question

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Are we following in the culture that we live in today? Are we following the pattern and model that God has laid out for us in terms of what effective spirit led and filled?

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Evangelism looks like in a pagan culture because you see I think to be fair we have to say

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Well, those were inspired Apostles. Yes, but they had the same Spirit of God filling them. That's fills us today

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They had the same gospel and message that we have today, but they also to be fair to them They lived in a pagan culture, too

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They were surrounded by pagans Paganism everywhere temples to goddesses and all these things and priests and orgies and all these things that took place

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It was all it was ever people, you know killing their children in rome I mean there was conflict in rome where some emperors were like, you know, you can't kill your baby and some were saying

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Yes, you can people letting their children die of exposure. I mean this this is nothing new to the christian church

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We have always been engaged in a conflict with the world and very heavy opposition But the question has to be asked by what standard do we fight against these things?

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I want to argue it's the words of the living god When jesus I said jesus on tuesday had a conflict with the people of his day where they were taking what was seen

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Essentially by them as a divine tradition in mark 7 um, and uh, and they're bringing it against jesus saying how can your disciples aren't following the tradition of the elders jesus

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He could have appealed to his own authority He's god and he did sometimes just appeal to his own authority.

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I say to you But jesus there when there's a conflict two different um claims truth claims made he says

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Um, moses says so the word word of god says but you say He says thus you invalidate the word of god you invalidate the word of god for the sake of your tradition

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So jesus actually takes their tradition compares it to scripture and says god's word says this and so you are making god's word void

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For the sake of your tradition when jesus had a conflict between two claims or two world views

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He went right back to the words of the living god and wouldn't you know it? That's because he's our perfect representative in our righteousness

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He's the law keeper that we are not and in the old testament. You see that as the pattern in the model god says

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Thus saith the lord. I wonder if that means much to us today thus saith the lord that was

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That was what they rested on that's what they hung everything on Thus saith the lord

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Now that might be embarrassing to modern evangelicals today to say god says

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And that's it But for the writers of the old new testament for the biblical prophets for jesus

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That was where it was at thus saith the lord deuteronomy 13. I mentioned it on tuesday I'll just say it one last time god gives them a test to test false prophets

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Deuteronomy 13 1 through 4 Even if they're signs and wonders even if the ministry looks legit looks like it's from god

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But if he leads you after other gods Gods, which you have not known.

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That's how you know. He's a false prophet. So god says this I've revealed myself. This is who

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I am if somebody comes and they contradict what i've said about myself That's how you know

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That's how we test false prophets and false teachers, but I want to say That's how we test every truth claim

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Does it match up to god's word? John 17 17 jesus says in his high priestly prayer father sanctify them in your truth thy word

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Is truth It's the plumb line. It's the measure. It's what you use to measure

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It's the standard if you're building something and you drop that plumb line That's the standard if the wall is off you don't bend the plumb line to get to the wall

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You take the wall and say it's not right and you bend it back and that's exactly what jesus is referring to Isaiah 8 20

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I mentioned on tuesday to the law and to the testimony if they don't speak according to this word It's because they have no light in them

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Maybe we're not effective Well, I have to always say this because we're good.

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We're good calvinists here God is sovereign and he's judging our nations. Why is it happening around us because he's judging our nations

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That's why but it's not just it's not living in a vacuum. God's just judging our nations and that's all nothing

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Led up to that. Of course god's been working the whole time He's in the heavens and he does whatever he pleases, but there's always a means to that end, right?

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And how come we're not so effective today? Could it could it be? Is it possible that we're not as effective today in the 21st century evangelical west

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Because we've abandoned the commitments and the standard that our forebearers stood on they were effective because It was assumed it wasn't a perfect utopia.

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They wasn't in utopia. They had their sins to deal with too But how come you see such a contrast between cultures between the old culture and the new how come?

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Well, I would argue in many respects is because those people stood on the words of god assumed it proclaimed it and weren't ashamed

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We seem to be ashamed of the word of god in the culture that we live in today because we don't want to offend anybody Well, they don't really accept the words of god

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So maybe I need to find a new route to convince this person to come to jesus and I want to just say this Nobody comes to jesus nobody apart from the spirit's work god's electing grace and His power in the gospel through a faithful proclamation of his truth

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Nobody comes to god apart from god's good news coming into their life and the good news doesn't come into anybody's life nobody's without first order

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Important things coming loaded up front and that is what god is holy and you are not

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Right god is good and we're not we're sinners against the holy god. We violated his law and that's why you need jesus

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You can't get people to see That jesus is the supreme treasure if you abandon him as the supreme treasure

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You can't get people to submit to christ's ultimate authority If when you reason with them you abandon his authority to do it

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Jesus is worth your whole life But when I argue for the christian message,

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I argue in a way Where he's not worth my whole life. Maybe he's not really the messiah

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Maybe he doesn't have ultimate authority. Hey, let's play neutrality and see if we can get to god, right?

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something um something uh van till Used to talk about I think it's important in terms of how we try to get people to to god to either believe in god

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Or to believe in his truth oftentimes We'll build a ladder right to get to to get to god either the existence of god or some truth from god

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We'll build this ladder and we have different rungs, right? Like i'll use this evidence and maybe this emotional appeal and maybe this argument and this historical argument

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And let's get that ladder to get him to god And the problem is is that when we get him there to the true biblical god

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If we're coming to the true god We'll realize we never needed the ladder in the first place Because when we get to him, we realize he always had the ultimate authority

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His authority was already self attesting He was already the foundation of all truth and knowledge and so That's not to say and don't don't misunderstand this.

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I think some people did on tuesday. I just saw a couple comments It's not to say that we don't believe in evidence

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It's not to say we don't believe in laws of logic and reason and ethics and all those different things and those arguments That's that's not to say that We're actually arguing that you don't get science laws of logic or ethical appeals period if you don't start with the self -attesting authority of the living god laws of logic are

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Meaningless apart from the biblical worldview. How do you justify appeals to? immaterial invariant universal abstract truths like the laws of logic with an atheistic view of the world

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All they believe is matter in motion. We're all materialists right naturalistic materialism You don't get immaterial universal invariant laws when all that exists is the material realm

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And in terms of science, you don't get science and things that can be tested.

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You don't get uniformity and nature and induction You don't get the future being like the past apart from the sovereign god who governs it

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And in terms of ethical appeals if you don't start with the biblical god, you don't get the image of god You don't get absolute standards of morality

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You don't get the very character of god to base everything off of his eternal unchanging character

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So what we're arguing for is the entire thing Jesus is at the center of it all we start all of our thinking we start all of our knowledge with god at the center

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He's the foundation god has spoken And I think that that needs to be understood in all of life it matters for everything again

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For christian praxis. How do you how do you talk to your kids? Let's do it this way. Let's make this intensely personal

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How do you talk to your kids moms and dads? When when you and I are raising our children up and we tell them that they ought not

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Do something on what basis do you tell them that they shouldn't do that thing?

31:44

well If you're like me when that conversation starts You point them first to god and his authority you say god says

31:54

Honor your father and your mother god says that you're to love your neighbor as you love yourself this conflict

32:01

That's happening between you and your sister right now The problem here is you're not loving her like you love yourself

32:07

You're not loving her in the way that jesus loves us love does no harm to its neighbor

32:13

You see what i'm saying? We appeal to the words of god As ultimate with our children in our homes and with ourselves.

32:20

How come you don't watch internet pornography It's because it's uncomfortable

32:27

Is it just because the consequences Is because you're gonna get caught How come you don't because if watch if it's for those reasons

32:34

I love jc riles book holiness and he drives that point home if you're not doing those things

32:41

Because you're afraid of getting caught you're afraid of the consequences then that's not really holy

32:47

That's not truly righteous So why don't you and I go down that route? How come we're not pursuing that lifestyle?

32:53

I would imagine That we do it because god says Because he calls it adultery

33:01

Because he calls it sexually immoral and he tells us not to do it Well, i'm saying what i'm saying is we need to take that standard we have

33:10

As christians throughout our entire lives and we apply that across the board to everything

33:16

And I think a faithful witness with the words of the living god Is what god uses to bring people to life?

33:23

By his spirit through his gospel. He saves people, but he doesn't do it without his word

33:30

He doesn't do it without truth now, um that brings me to A bit of andy stanley,

33:38

I know that um Dr. White did touch on this a bit and I I really enjoyed that it was it was it was really a blessing to hear

33:46

But I thought that this is something that connects to so much of what's wrong around us

33:53

In our culture and in terms of what we have to face and be ready to confront Um, I want to say that I want to have love for this man

34:02

Um, he professes faith in jesus But the commentary that he gives in his message online, it's called aftermath part three

34:11

Not difficult andy stanley the message that he has for christians Is awful.

34:19

It's um, it's deplorable. It's uh, it's not true. It is contradictory

34:25

It is inherently contradictory. It is contradictory to the words of the living god It's contradictory to new testament theology

34:32

Um, it is does not fit the soteriology of the entire bible and I think it's destructive

34:39

I got from it and I tried to listen to it with an open mind I got from it that we need to as christians today to disassociate ourselves from the old testament revelation

34:48

He actually argues from the whole world view Um, he makes a point based upon the text in the book of acts and the conflict that was going on there

34:57

Uh where james is presiding over this, uh, this council he makes the point, um that Well, let's do this i'll play through it i'm only going to play about 12 minutes of it

35:08

But i'm going to stop at points and just sort of work through it Uh, this is andy stanley starting at around 20 minutes

35:15

Even that good at this Why in the world would we try to get a group of people who did not grow up in our culture?

35:23

Grow up with our background How in the world are we going to get them to accept all these laws all these rules and all these customs?

35:29

I mean if that's what they have to do to become a follower of jesus. Come on guys. How realistic? Is that?

35:36

and then What comes next is so subtle. I mean it is so subtle But it is so important for where we're going and where I hope that you'll go

35:46

Especially if you're someone who's losing or has lost faith He says to this group of jewish jesus following people

35:51

Some are ready to just follow jesus and leave the old covenant behind others are trying to mix and match moses and jesus. He says no so important we believe

36:01

Us jesus following jews. We believe that it is through the grace

36:08

See when you read the old testament When you read the old covenant when you read the story of israel when you read the prophets of israel

36:17

You don't see much of this It's I will if you will I will if you will I will

36:25

What? When you read the old testament, you don't see much of this It's interesting because this contradicts

36:35

All of the new testament says About the old testament revelation and this covenant god has made and the salvation that we have

36:42

The apostle paul actually makes the point In the book of romans, he makes the point in romans chapter 4 to buttress his point about the work of christ

36:53

Saved by grace through faith apart from works of law that this is how god has always

36:59

Saved people not that the old testament they were saved through law. He says in romans chapter 4

37:05

What does the scripture say abraham believed god and it was credited to him as righteousness

37:11

To the one who works his wage is not credited as as as a gift

37:17

But as what is due but to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly

37:22

His faith is credited as righteousness. And then he says just as david

37:27

Also king david abraham and david the two primary witnesses for paul

37:32

Just as david also speaks of the blessing upon the man to whom god credit credits righteousness apart from works

37:40

That's David that's abraham What do you mean? That there's so little of this in the old testament

37:46

It's just I will if you will and I will if you will I just have to say this That's not how god talked about his law.

37:52

I'm, sorry Yes, the law was a curse In a sense to people who are fallen in adam in the flesh.

38:02

They cannot accomplish the law, of course Cursed is everyone who does not do everything in this book

38:08

There were it was a covenant where there were blessings and cursings, but is that how god felt about his law?

38:14

that it was This awful awful thing that andy stanley makes it to be for example not

38:20

So much grace in the old testament psalm 119 verse 29

38:26

Put false ways far from me and graciously teach me your law

38:34

Gracious graciously teach me your law here's here's the psalmist asking for god to Graciously teach me your law.

38:45

Give me the grace of that You know, it's a thing that andy stanley says here in this message. We might get to it I'm, not sure if it's after where i'm going to end or not.

38:52

Um but He he he makes he makes the point

38:58

Over and over and over again that this law is sort of oppressive. It's violent It's it's it just gives the impression that it's just all bad.

39:05

It's all bad and that he says even the pagans You know, they didn't have with with their law like morality in their laws they didn't have what we have with the bible and i'm going to say that's interesting because That's one of the distinctings distinctives between the god of the bible and pagan gods

39:22

Is that the pagan gods didn't do a lot of talking? There's a reason for that, um

39:28

False gods don't do a lot of talking and um, they just can't do it and they can't control history

39:33

They can't do what the living god does but yeah They didn't have like a very clear understood defined Moral law in the pagan religions because their gods don't do a lot of talking and a lot of revelation

39:43

However, the god of the bible condescends and reveals himself and he tells his people what is right?

39:49

What is true what is lovely what is good what is just that is a gift from god

39:57

That's a gift For god to condescend and reveal his holy character and to tell his people how to live with one another in a loving

40:06

Relationship that is a gift of god. It is not simply oppressive. It's not

40:12

Graceless rich. I see you kind of yeah. Go ahead. I mean i'm over here itching I this this particular clip,

40:18

I think james has played it before the How many times have we dealt with people?

40:25

Who if you look at the assumptions that they make regarding the old testament? And you ask what is the world view that they understand the old testament to represent, right?

40:37

You see that in the new testament in a place that we're not really thinking about very much and that is the place the world view of the pharisees and the sadducees

40:50

The way in which they saw and practiced the judaic religion

40:56

That jesus confronted them on said things to them. You do err not knowing the scriptures.

41:02

That's right And I see andy stanley Applying those same world views as he describes the old testament.

41:12

That's right And jesus's answer to that is you have a fundamental misunderstanding

41:18

Of god's word. That's amazing. I was going to make exactly that point rich I'm glad you brought it up because I think that that's the problem is stanley is adopting their perspective their perverse

41:29

Perspective of the law of god and he's acting as though as though that was the case and jesus corrects them

41:36

Constantly on that point. He talks to them about mercy right not sacrifice He talks to them about erring because they don't know the scriptures paul is is doing

41:47

God's work, of course as an inspired apostle correcting The misapplication and misinterpretation of the law in his day the perverse view of the law

41:56

My point here is this is not to to really harp for a long time on this point But it's just to say that when andy stanley makes that comment

42:05

That like this is some new thing that god is now saving people by grace It is such a distortion of new testament theology

42:12

The old testament from the very beginning the first three chapters of genesis. What do you see there god's gracious covenant?

42:20

They fell into sin and what did god say to them? What did he say the day you eat of it you will die and what happened that day?

42:27

Yeah, they died spiritually, but what did god say the first thing he does when he steps into that story? It's amazing.

42:33

The first thing he does is he doesn't just start swinging his discipline as punishments What does he do first he promises?

42:40

to send the deliverer the woman's Seed will crush the head of satan.

42:46

The mortal blow will be delivered to the work of satan That's the first thing god says And i'm going to say this.

42:52

How is that not grace? How is that not grace The very start of our story and our plunge into sin is all grace

43:00

It's god's first introduction of the messiah who's coming and then that that entire book in the book of genesis

43:07

It's grace upon grace upon grace and god is promising in that story genesis 49 10

43:14

That shiloh is coming and to him shall be the obedience of the nations. God is promising The messiah is coming and i'm going to undo all this that has been broken

43:23

Again, psalm 119 god graciously teach me your law How is that oppressive if the psalmist through divine inspiration is saying god graciously teach me your law

43:33

How about in genesis genesis 15 6 abraham the father of our faith world descendants of abraham

43:40

What does god say to abraham abraham believe god it was credited to him as righteousness. How is that not grace or how about this?

43:46

Mr. Stanley, how is it not grace? How is it not grace? How is it just oppressive law?

43:53

when god walks through the animals What's abraham doing when god walks through the parted animals?

44:01

What's abraham doing? What's his position? He's asleep He is passive It's only reception for abraham.

44:09

It's only reception. It is only gifting. It's all Grace when you look at deuter deuteronomy chapter 4

44:16

I'll end on this point and get some more of the video in deuteronomy 4 This is what god says when he gives his law to his people

44:22

And now israel listen to the statutes and the rules that i am teaching you and do them that you may live and go

44:27

In and take possession of the land that you the lord your god The god of your fathers is giving you

44:32

You should not add to the word that I command you nor take away from it that you may keep the commandments of the lord

44:37

Your god that I command you and what he says about his law is this See, I have taught you statutes and rules as lord

44:44

My god commanded me that you should do them in the land that you are entering to take possession of it Keep them and do them for that will be your wisdom

44:52

And your understanding in the sight of the peoples who then when they hear all these statutes will say

44:58

Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people for what great nation is there that has a god

45:04

So near to it as the lord Our god is to us whenever we call upon him and what great nation is there

45:11

That has statutes and rules so righteous as all this law that I set before you today. Here's my point Christians reform folks we have disagreements over like the extent of the law and like, you know

45:21

Moral law and how's that apply today and those sorts of things that that is not the issue today The issue today is actually addressing something we can all join together in reformed

45:32

Unity around a man who actually is talking about the old testament in a way that totally contradicts the revelation of god

45:40

The old testament was god's grace from beginning to end It was the perversion as rich said of the religious leaders of that day

45:49

That led to the idea that this law could somehow justify you that was false and it's corrected in the new testament

45:55

I don't know why andy stanley has adopted it Well, if you will that was god's contract with the nation

46:01

We believe it is through the grace, but here's the subtle part We believe it is through the grace of our lord.

46:07

Jesus christ. This is so Big that we we jews

46:13

Are saved just as they are The implication let me restate it.

46:19

This is so big We jesus following jews must move in Their direction and we must stop expecting them to move in our direction.

46:30

He would Well, that's an interesting way to put that um, because it does contradict

46:41

Some biblical teaching that's I think important because again, that's not how the inspired apostle spoke about the situation of jews and gentiles now together in one

46:52

Body in ephesians chapter 2 when he talks about all of our deadness and sin Uh, he talks about us being by nature children of wrath and god made us alive together in jesus by grace

47:02

You've been saved through faith and not of yourselves. It's a gift of god not according to works

47:08

What's interesting is in that same passage that we all know and I hope you brothers and sisters have it memorized um ephesians chapter 2 verses 8 through 10 um

47:20

He says this verse 11 Therefore remember that at one time you gentiles

47:27

In the flesh called the uncircumcision by what is called the circumcision which is made in the flesh by hands Remember that you were at that time separated from christ alienated from the commonwealth of israel and strangers to the covenants of promise covenants plural of Promise singular you were strangers.

47:47

You were aliens gentiles Having no hope and without god in the world but now in messiah jesus

47:58

You who once were far off? Have been brought near by the blood of christ

48:06

For he himself is our peace who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh The dividing wall of hostility by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances the holiness code

48:17

Yes by divine inspiration. We know the holiness code is gone Because those boundary markers and those holiness code rules those separated jew from gentile in the old testament

48:27

They had their purpose paul through divine inspiration says those are gone and you've brought near been brought near.

48:33

Here's my point Gentiles you were strangers you were aliens to god's covenants of the promise the commonwealth of israel

48:41

But now in christ You've been brought Near to what the commonwealth of israel?

48:48

You've been brought into this You were brought in you were a stranger you without hope and you've been brought into the commonwealth of israel inheriting the covenants of the promise

49:02

Stanley seems to have it in the other direction Right. It's us need to go over to their covenant

49:08

Right, like they're saved by grace. We need to move over to them We need to move away from this treacherous awful oppressive law of god and his old testament scriptures and worldview

49:18

We got to get away from that and we got to come move over to the gentiles where god is now acting in grace He's working in grace over here

49:24

But that's literally the opposite of what takes place in the new testament Here's all the blessings.

49:30

Here's the commonwealth of israel. You guys are without without without hope in the world and now in christ

49:36

God's brought you here To participate in all of this here It's not us going over to some covenant.

49:42

God's made over here with them It's that god has been working and doing things here throughout history.

49:47

And now you guys inherit these blessings. They're coming into you Just seems like such a a strange way to handle the situation

49:57

In the book of acts Would say i'm telling you I was in the home of a roman centurion

50:03

And I saw god do for them Exactly what god did for us 20 years ago

50:11

And they did not have the law. They don't know the law. They've never done anything to become jewish all the men

50:17

I'm assuming were not circumcised and yet I saw god accept them just as he did for us

50:23

It is time that us jews accept the fact that god has done what he was going to do with us

50:29

And now he's doing something for the world and we need to be a part of it, even though it means Letting go of and setting aside the traditions the scripture that we grew up with Do you hear that?

50:44

Isn't that amazing that conflation? Um Yes, it's true that This subject is discussed in the new testament the apostle paul has a very extensive conversation surrounding this issue of circumcision

51:00

And uh, if you if you submit to that if you if you take that part and make that commitment to be a part of that Uh, you are now under obligation to fulfill all of that Yes, we know what paul says in galatians chapter 5

51:13

He says that if you if you do that then christ has been enough becomes of no effect to you Um, and you've fallen from grace if you do that, yes, we understand the dietary restrictions all of that stuff.

51:25

Yeah, we we understand that But notice what he did there he said

51:31

These traditions dietary restrictions circumcision all that stuff. He goes so we're going to set aside those traditions and I would say

51:38

Okay, good. Yes, that's that's talked about in a new testament We see the apostle saying that he goes the traditions and the scriptures

51:49

Well, how do we get there andy, how do we do that? How do we get from Taking these traditions that yes were meant to be temporary.

51:57

They were meant to pass away They were boundary marker things separating jew from gentile. They were meant to go away and we have divine

52:05

Divinely inspired scripture that tells us what to do with those things That's how we know what to do with those things But how do we get now the scriptures of the old testament just tossed in there for good measure the traditions?

52:15

And the scriptures of the old testament, you know brothers and sisters this is nothing new

52:22

Uh in church history, there's nothing new under the sun one of the earliest conflicts in the christian church

52:30

In the second century that actually created quite the stir uh was the issue of marcion

52:37

The marcionites and that was an issue that really upset the church. And by the way, this is interesting

52:42

It was an issue that led to the first formal declaration of canon in the second century by the christian church

52:51

It was a an issue that was so serious It was about the old testament scriptures and word of god and law that led the early christians to have to formally declare

53:00

Uh the word of god as the early church. That was second century conflict And of course this may not be full -blown marcionism, but oh boy, it smells a lot like it

53:11

Has the same kind of presuppositions all throughout it and it's important because Of this point popular text.

53:18

Dr. White has probably taught you as he taught me to uh to know the word specifically

53:24

And that is second timothy 3 16 through 17 all scripture is and you say what in greek theanoustos

53:34

We all know that because dr. White taught us I love it. Dr. White's used that so many times before theanoustos

53:40

Put your hand in front of your face and you can feel the breath touching your palm And that's the that's the expression there of theanoustos.

53:47

It's the very breathed out word of god all scripture is theanoustos It's breathed out by god. Very cool thing

53:53

The children at apologia church all know that greek word They all know it if you ask the kids at apologia all scripture is theanu they'll all say theanoustos.

54:03

They all know god breathed Uh, thanks to dr. White, but here's what it says. This is um,

54:09

I need to put this in timeline For us so we can try to think about context paul is speaking here in second timothy.

54:16

He's speaking after the life death Resurrection and ascension of jesus.

54:23

So this is long after that the work of christ is accomplished Jesus is ascended and seated on his throne once for all sacrifice is done new covenant is running in a motion, right?

54:33

Apostles are are doing their ministry and all that they're doing they're producing scripture all that But we don't have the entirety of the new testament revelation yet.

54:41

It's not done yet And paul says in second timothy 3 16 through 17 all scripture

54:47

Is breathed out by god and is profitable for teaching for reproof for correction and for training and righteousness that the man of god may be

54:55

Competent complete equipped for every good work. Paul says that at a time where the new testament isn't finished yet so when paul says

55:04

To timothy that these scriptures are able to make you wise for salvation

55:11

What's he referring to? the old testament revelation of god primarily that these scriptures

55:20

The old testament is able to make you wise for salvation You can bring someone to jesus by using the old testament to do it

55:30

And he says all scripture is profitable for training and righteousness teaching correction that is post christ cross

55:38

Ascension resurrection and that is paul speaking to a first century minister of the gospel talking about god's

55:46

Old testament revelation make you wise for salvation profitable teaching correction Competent for every good work.

55:53

That is the apostle paul's view of the old testament It's not andy stanley's It's not andy stanley's

56:03

It took him 20 years, but peter finally figured out that christianity Was not judaism 2 .0

56:09

This was not an add -on. It was a stand alone say goodbye to the past new

56:17

That jesus was not an and Jesus was an instead

56:24

Of no mixing and matching no blending. No little bit of jesus. No little bit of moses

56:30

It was jesus only the law of moses god's covenant with israel was a means to an extraordinary end

56:39

Really? Well, that is interesting in terms of christian theology biblical theology historic orthodoxy um because the apostle paul doesn't go there

56:53

Just i'm going to encourage you to do this and I don't I don't mean I don't want to be mean -spirited and unkind To andy stanley, but I do want to be a minister of the gospel that says hey

57:02

Mark that guy. Um, that's not biblical In romans chapter 3 when the apostle paul gives that catena of verses from the old testament scripture, by the way

57:11

Isn't interesting that the apostle paul to preach the gospel uses the old testament to do it Isn't that interesting?

57:17

but um When he uses those old testament verses to show the universal indictment of sin upon jew and gentile all of us

57:24

He talks in romans 3 19 That the law was given to shut the world up To shut you up To make you accountable to god and that through by the works of the law

57:35

Nobody will be justified in his sight for through the laws and knowledge of sin He says this watch but now verse 21.

57:42

The righteousness of god has been manifested apart from the law watch although The law and the prophets bear witness to it and then he explains of course justified as a gift gift

57:55

Right by his grace through the redemption that's in christ. Jesus all of sin falls short of the glory of god

58:01

Jesus is our propitiation god remains just and the justifier the one who has faith in jesus

58:06

Romans 3 28 we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law faith alone

58:13

Faith apart from the works of the law and you say I think that andy stanley would agree with all of that And when he says this is a whole new thing now

58:21

We're disconnecting all of this and it would the law was a means to an end It was just a means to an end.

58:26

Look what paul says in the very passage where he says we can't be justified by the law Faith apart from the works of the law romans 3 31

58:35

Do we then? Overthrow the law by this faith

58:42

By no means On the contrary we uphold the law very different theology

58:50

Very different from andy stanley you see paul Doesn't have the problem the disconnect that andy stanley does

58:57

He sees that christ is a propitiation. He's our righteousness. We're in him We are credited his righteousness apart from works of law.

59:04

We're saved through faith That's the instrument through which we're joined to jesus and god appropriates that gift to us and it's apart from any work

59:12

But then he answers the question in the background He hears andy stanley 2 000 years later

59:20

He hears him and he says do we then overthrow the law through this faith by no means actually because of the gospel

59:28

We establish the law we uphold it because of the gospel Because we're saved because we're regenerated and why because this ain't no new story

59:38

This isn't something to god's just some brand new novel thing God's dropped into history in the first century that nobody really expected and hey

59:45

We all got to abandon all this old testament worldview and revelation to get to this thing with jesus because it's all new

59:51

That's not what the old testament says. Jeremiah 31 31. God says he's making a new covenant

59:57

Not like the one that they broke. This is a new one. He says that he will remember their sins

01:00:02

No more and he says this I will put my law Jeremiah 31 31 which law was that?

01:00:10

Oh, that's the law of christ Like way ahead right that's that's way later. No, they're talking to jews here.

01:00:16

These guys have their bibles. They know the word of god He says i'll put my law where on their inward parts

01:00:23

Stone tablets now outside of them. No more. It's now written on the tablet of my heart

01:00:29

It's inside me now, or how about the passage? We always go to as reformed folks. Ezekiel 36 i'll sprinkle clean water on you and you'll be clean

01:00:40

I'll cleanse you of all your idols all your sin. I'll put my spirit within you

01:00:45

And what's he say? I will cause you to observe my statutes

01:00:52

Which statutes This is ezekiel Ezekiel He's a jew.

01:00:58

He's got the word of god. He knows the law of god jeremiah and ezekiel both saying that That a constituent element of the new covenant is that god does something new

01:01:10

Where now by his spirit he fills people and he writes his law inside them

01:01:17

Stanley says disconnect all of it the whole world view the law itself is gone. You have no obligation to obey the ten commandments now

01:01:24

God's saying don't obey the ten commandments. It's a whole new thing. The old covenant prophets are going

01:01:31

Well, that's not what was promised It was something entirely different It was now god taking his law and putting it inside of people which law the known law the law that they had the law

01:01:42

They understood from their god very different from andy stanley And then peter's done

01:01:50

James stands up everybody gets quiet because james brother jesus Got any questions about mary?

01:01:57

He's the one to ask. Okay James and brother jesus stands up And he reminds them gentlemen

01:02:06

We shouldn't be surprised by this Our prophets predicted this Our prophets foretold of a time that there would be a new covenant

01:02:14

Our prophets told us that israel was established to be a light to the gentiles. We should have seen this coming

01:02:20

And then he concludes with this statement. This statement has been on my desk for 20 years This statement is painted in the halls and the walls of most of our office buildings everywhere.

01:02:29

We build offices This is on plaques. We've made pictures out of it This has been our marching orders for just you know for about 20 years as a group of churches

01:02:37

James says it is my judgment. In other words. I'm calling this meeting to a close

01:02:43

It is my judgment therefore That we should not make it difficult for the gentiles who are turning to god

01:02:53

The implications are extraordinary within the context of this conversation. Here's what he was saying god's arrangement with israel

01:03:02

God's arrangement with israel should now be eliminated from the equation but what he said next

01:03:10

Is so astonishing and so disruptive it has been largely ignored in the church and I can understand why?

01:03:18

Because again, this is so difficult for those of us who grew up accepting and you know Reading and hearing the bible taught the way that most of us have but this is

01:03:26

I mean This is james the brother jesus. This is peter jesus follower These are guys who are right there close to the action.

01:03:31

We should take their word for what we need to do as it relates to their scripture

01:03:38

Do you know what he said next? No What what can't this is how what a big deal this is what comes next?

01:03:47

Defines your relationship with over half your english bible if you own a bible and if you take the bible seriously

01:03:52

Okay, now remember before I tell you what he says 300 miles north You got up hundreds and hundreds of gentiles

01:03:57

And they're waiting to hear what this group's going to decide the men are most nervous of all Okay, because it's like okay if they come back after this meeting and say well

01:04:05

We voted and yeah, you gotta have you have a surgery to be a jesus follower So they're in there they're waiting.

01:04:11

So james says we need to write them a letter and help You know work through and sort out and tell them what we decided so that you don't just go up there and say what we did

01:04:19

We're going to put it in writing and then put our names on it and send some trustworthy people with you back to antioch

01:04:25

So those christians up there will know what to do And how jewish they have to be and what they have to do with moses and here's what james says.

01:04:32

This is this is extraordinary instead We should write them Instead of telling they have to be circumcised and keep the whole law of moses

01:04:40

They have to be jewish to be christian instead. We should write to them telling them Christians in antioch.

01:04:47

Here's what they got to do abstain from food polluted by idols From sexual immorality and from the meat of strangled animals and from blood

01:04:59

What what yeah, this is what we're going to tell them. This will help them This is going to sort of this is going to solve the problem

01:05:04

Tell them to abstain from food polluted by idols from sexual immorality from the meat of strangled animals and from blood

01:05:11

Now it looks like when you first read this that he's kind of cherry picking from the law of moses like okay They don't have to do all 600, but um, let's just give them a few

01:05:20

Um, let's you know, you can't eat meat, you know from strangled animals and sexual immorality. It looks like he's cherry picking

01:05:25

This is so important. Look up here. He's not Because here's his explanation for this strange group of old testament -ish kind of commands

01:05:33

Four that means i'm going to explain why this letter for the law of moses Has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every sabbath

01:05:43

In other words in antioch There are a bunch of synagogues and there's so many jewish people living up there And there are so many jewish people who are bought into and kind of hardwired to the dietary laws of moses

01:05:54

So here's the question Why would james suggest they send that particular message to gentile christians?

01:06:01

What you know, what does the law of moses has been taught in synagogues every sabbath? What does that have to do with these old testament -ish commands and why these why doesn't he say?

01:06:10

Okay, tell the gentiles Um, let's see. Okay. Do not steal thou shalt not steal. That's a good one. What else you got?

01:06:16

Oh, yeah, that's a good one. Thou shalt not murder. That's a good one. What else we got? Okay, thou shalt not commit adultery Let's just go with three send them these why the food thing and then this very general statement and no sexual

01:06:28

Immorality, what's the connection? This is so important Those imperatives had nothing to do with keeping the law of moses

01:06:39

Those imperatives had everything to do with keeping the peace in the church

01:06:46

Now he is on to something there That is fundamentally

01:06:53

A part of the conflict what's happening there with jew and gentile keeping peace in the church The problem is where he then goes

01:07:00

With it He then turns it into a discussion of a complete disconnection from the old testament scriptures and the moral law of god the law of god itself, isn't it interesting that he actually brings up there as uh as an example

01:07:14

Like well, they didn't choose like you should not murder. You should not commit adultery You should not steal they could have chosen those three Well, I want to say they didn't do that because it was already assumed

01:07:23

That that law was abiding. That's god's moral law That law doesn't change

01:07:29

For example, and if you have any questions about that, let me just try to humbly say it to you in this way

01:07:34

Jesus says that the two greatest commandments are to love god and love neighbor. Well, guess what?

01:07:40

Guess where that's from? That's from the old testament. That's not some new thing from jesus

01:07:45

He's quoting from the old testament shema yisrael. Yahweh eloheinu. Yahweh echad

01:07:51

Hero israel the lord our god the lord is one you shall love the lord your god with all your heart and soul and mind

01:07:57

That's old testament law And then of course love your neighbor as you love yourself. That's from leviticus Those are the laws of god and then jesus says this

01:08:05

All of the law and the prophets all of the law and the prophets are built upon these two commandments

01:08:11

And I would ask andy stanley this I would say Am I obligated in your new testament

01:08:18

To love god and love neighbor and if he says Yes, i'd say thank you for the ten commandments

01:08:26

Thank you for the ten commandments Because the love of god love of neighbor is what leads to the ten commandments first table second table love for neighbor

01:08:34

Is what what does it look like to love my neighbor? Are you ready? Here's what it looks like Don't steal from them.

01:08:40

Uh, don't kill them. Uh, don't lie to them. Don't covet their stuff. Don't commit adultery Love your neighbor right loving god.

01:08:49

What's that look like to love god? I don't know. Do you want to be creative and figure it out? How about loving god looks like Have no other gods in god's sight

01:08:57

Don't make a god that looks like god Don't take his name in vain You see what i'm saying? You see the love of god love of neighbor is the basis of jesus says all the law of god

01:09:07

And how come james didn't say let's take these three because it was already assumed

01:09:12

That god's law is abiding It's abiding and it's true that these particular orders were given

01:09:22

To keep what? peace within The church that is right.

01:09:29

What's not right is where andy stanley goes with it Therefore the old testament worldview is gone

01:09:35

Therefore the old testament law is gone. It's all over with now It's a completely new thing move away completely from those words and you're not even obligated now to keep the ten commandments

01:09:46

Which is where andy stanley goes rich see forgive me for always looking for consistency. Yeah, i'm kind of trained that way um

01:09:54

I I think if you ask andy stanley that question and he's consistent. Yeah I think he is

01:10:02

Logically forced to jettison At least half of the new testament

01:10:08

Yes Yes, I think he he he has no choice But to look at things that he's already we've heard him a couple of years ago when james was reviewing some of his stuff going through Things you might consider to be a fable or do you really believe that?

01:10:26

You know, really we only have to believe this one thing Well, if you only have to believe the one thing then you don't have to believe any of the other stuff

01:10:35

And so when you come across the apostle paul and he's rooting his arguments into the old testament

01:10:41

Which you've already thrown out the window. Yeah. Well, why don't we just throw paul out with it, right?

01:10:46

Okay, and then we get peter, you know peter he gets into some sticky stuff He gets into the genesis 6 stuff too, and we don't really understand that too.

01:10:54

Well, let's get rid of him, too That's right. And next thing, you know, yeah, we have sliced and diced our bible and That's the problem.

01:11:03

What do you got left a couple of pages? Very little like you've been doing the unibomber that you get you got a lot of problems, too

01:11:10

Yeah, because and that's one of the things that's happening, you know those rich in in church history When people have gone the way of andy stanley and there's nothing new under the sun

01:11:18

When they have gone this way they have had then difficulty saying old testament's out completely.

01:11:24

Let's ignore that entirely now They go. Oops Paul is quoting from the old testament law assuming that you're supposed to obey it

01:11:31

So is peter so are the other apostles? So maybe we need to say paul's maybe not a real apostle.

01:11:36

Maybe he has to go too Maybe we take this apostle's writings. We just ignore this whole book. Maybe that's not really written by him

01:11:42

Maybe that's something different. And so yeah this this you run into these problems When you don't let the new testament revelation define for you what?

01:11:53

remains what Goes and I don't think that stanley's allowing that to take place. We're almost done here guys

01:11:59

Just a few more minutes. This next section is actually really really important So i'm going to try to at least play through this. This would be a jumbo dividing line today

01:12:06

He was asking these new gentile believers to make some dietary concessions for the sake of unity in the church

01:12:17

Because he knew no matter what they taught for a jewish person that dietary law was like, okay

01:12:23

I know we're free and I know peter had a vision and I know what jesus said But I I just can't eat pork.

01:12:30

I'm shrimp. I'm just I just can't I mean I love jesus. Yes, I do How about you but I just I can't just don't make me do that and so they're saying look tell the gentiles

01:12:39

Tell the gentiles you make concessions like we're making concessions because we're going to have one church not two

01:12:45

This was all about peacekeeping not Law -keeping now. I want to talk about this one real quick.

01:12:51

This is because this is kind of the outlier It's like the dietary thing kind of odd and then he says and oh, yeah and abstain from sexual immorality

01:12:58

Now if I were to hand everybody a three by five card And I were to say tell me what you think this means or what this means to you

01:13:05

How many different answers would I get? About as many answers as there are cards, right?

01:13:13

I really hope not Not in a christian communion I really hope that within a christian church the body of christ wouldn't have that problem

01:13:24

And this goes back to what I said at the very beginning of this episode brothers and sisters If you stand on the word of god as your reference point if it's the standard by which you measure everything

01:13:34

If it's the plumb line, then no You don't have that problem of not being able to define what sexual immorality is

01:13:43

Now this is where it gets really interesting And by the way, this is where the this is where he comes off the rails.

01:13:49

It's where the wheels come off completely The the things that he says next Are the reason why

01:13:56

I said on Tuesday that this is a lie It's lying because andy stanley has read his bible

01:14:03

And if he has not read his bible, he doesn't belong in this position. Either way you cut it There's no excuse for what comes next here

01:14:11

So what does this even mean you're going to send a bunch of idol, you know ex -pagans who you know participated in temple prostitution

01:14:19

Who have a very different sense of morality and what you can and can't do with slaves I mean the morality of the pagan world

01:14:25

I mean, you know You should know this in in the pagan religions the gods could care less how you treated other people the gods there was no more

01:14:32

There was no religious morality zero zippo The gods just wanted sacrifices now

01:14:38

There was civil law in terms of what you could and couldn't do but in terms of religious law There was no moral religious law in paganism.

01:14:45

It was a completely separate thing Which is i'll just say quickly Why god's giving of his law and revealing his own character was a gracious act of god.

01:14:57

It was a gift It was a gift from god for him to condescend and to reveal himself to his people

01:15:03

So to send a bunch of gentiles this and if you're staying from sexual immorality, what does that even mean?

01:15:09

This was a this is so important This was a general call to avoid immoral behavior But not immoral behavior as defined by the old testament or the law and the prophets

01:15:19

Why because they didn't have one they weren't jewish But as defined by the apostle paul who had been teaching in antioch for two or more years

01:15:30

And do you know what the apostle paul consistently tied sexual behavior to?

01:15:36

Not the old covenant not the ten commandments Nope not true

01:15:44

Not sexual immorality is defined by the old testament Well, let me start this by of course i'm going to go to where paul does exactly the thing that you say he doesn't do

01:15:52

But let me ask this question I would love uh to ask this question if I had andy stanley in front of me or forever

01:15:57

Have you ever happened to see this this broadcast? I'd like to ask andy stanley. Um, can

01:16:03

I have sex with animals? in the new covenant Is is is bestiality is that?

01:16:10

Against the law of god in the new covenant And if and if he says well, of course you can't do

01:16:17

I know he would say you can't But if he says well, of course you can't I would ask him Says who?

01:16:25

Where does it say that? Show me in the new testament record where I have a prohibition against sex with animals

01:16:31

Show me where And if you then go back to appeal to the old testament law and say god said then

01:16:37

I'll say that now you're completely done stick a fork in yourself because Your whole premise is over or how about this?

01:16:43

Is it um, is it lawful under the new covenant? For a daughter to marry her father or to have sexual relations with her father or her brother

01:16:53

Is that lawful in a new covenant old testament gone now old testament worldview completely kicked out I would like to know as a minister of the gospel whether it is allowed on the new covenant to Be in that kind of a relationship

01:17:05

And if you then appeal to the old testament law and say god has already spoken on that i'd say now the wheels have come off Once again, but he says that paul didn't root his definition of sexual morality in the old testament.

01:17:16

Well There are a number of ways to address that but I want to do it quickly right now We're almost done and I would just point to first corinthians chapter 5.

01:17:24

It's a well -known Conflict and in first corinthians chapter 5 he says verse 1 it is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you

01:17:33

He says paul didn't define sexual immorality on the basis of The old testament.

01:17:39

Well, he says the word sexual morality And a kind that is not tolerated even among pagans

01:17:46

For a man has his father's wife And you are arrogant ought you not rather to mourn let him who has done this be removed from among you

01:17:56

So paul then of course says that he wants them to get the guy out He says in verse 9.

01:18:02

I wrote to you not in my letter not to associate associate with sexually immoral people and he says um

01:18:08

And he says in verse 11 But now i'm writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of a brother if he is guilty of sexual

01:18:15

Immorality or greed or as an idolater reviler drunkard or swindler not even to eat with such a one

01:18:22

For what have I to do with judging outsiders? It is it is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge

01:18:29

God judges those outside. Here we go Purge the evil person from among you purge the evil person from among you

01:18:38

Boy that sounds familiar. Where do you get that from? The old testament

01:18:44

So when paul is dealing with sexual ethics within a new covenant community He actually says this is immoral behavior.

01:18:52

And then he says watch this. Here's what you are to do ethically what you ought to do Purge the evildoer from among you

01:18:58

Where did paul get that from that was the law in the old testament and he says

01:19:05

This law purge the evildoer from among you that is abiding in the new covenant community, right?

01:19:11

But watch what he doesn't do. He doesn't say now everyone. Listen up. I'm about to say something now We all know that old testament revelation is all done.

01:19:19

Now. We're done with the whole worldview now All that law is gone. We're done completely now. We just got to be like jesus now

01:19:24

So i'm going to do something here guys I'm going to pull a law from the old testament now And I want that at least that to remain here in terms of ethics and how you guys ought to behave and how you ought

01:19:34

To function as a church here. He doesn't do that. What's he do? He just quotes it Why it's the assumption of continuity.

01:19:41

He just assumes it you're supposed to know You're supposed to know this but what else does he do here?

01:19:46

He's all talking about sexual morality and purge the evildoer from among you That's what you know. God wants you to do from the old testament law

01:19:53

But then he actually as he talks about sexual morality in first corinthians chapter 6

01:20:00

Look what it says In verse 16 as he talks about prostitutes Do you not know that he who is joined to a prostitute becomes one body with her for as it is written the two will become one flesh

01:20:12

But he who is joined to the lord becomes one spirit with him flee sexual immorality Every other sin a person commits is outside the body

01:20:18

But the sexual immoral person sins against his own body or do you not know that your body is a temple of the holy spirit?

01:20:25

Within you whom you have from god Two two things there as he defines sexual morality one.

01:20:33

He says The two shall become one flesh. What's that from? That's from the law of god.

01:20:39

That's from the book of genesis. The two become one flesh Here's paul again quoting the old testament revelation. And then the second thing he does here in first corinthians 6 is what?

01:20:46

He says this your body is a temple of the holy spirit. What's paul doing?

01:20:52

He's using the old testament worldview and concept of temple and spirit of god

01:20:58

And he's now applying that in a new covenant context he's doing the very thing stanley says he doesn't do which is root

01:21:05

New testament sexual ethics in the old covenant revelation old testament revelation. He does the very thing that that stanley says he doesn't do

01:21:13

That's in two chapters first corinthians 5 first corinthians 6 The one commandment that jesus gave us that you are to treat others as god through christ has treated you

01:21:25

So when paul talked about relationships, he said stuff like this And your relationships one to one another and your relationships with one another have the same attitude as christ.

01:21:34

Jesus any questions Kind of covers it doesn't it means I got to put people before me.

01:21:39

Yeah in your relationships with one another Just remember your body Is a temple of the holy spirit

01:21:46

Wait, I thought we're not using old testament worldview and old testament

01:21:52

Scripture to define sexual ethics in the new testament When you pull from the passage that says our body is a temple of the holy spirit

01:22:00

You're once again diving back into the old testament revelation and worldview that you say is completely disconnected now

01:22:07

And we're untethered from uh, and you're using that now to define sexual ethics in the new testament

01:22:15

And so is hers And so is his Any questions No, I I think that about covers it the apostle paul was explicit and specific about teaching on sexual immorality

01:22:27

But he did not tie it to the old testament So consequently this letter makes perfect sense because it's going to show up in the church in antioch where the apostle paul's been for two

01:22:36

Years, so basically they're saying in order for there to be unity in the church Let's not offend.

01:22:43

Let's not offend the jewish sensibilities when it comes to the dietary law They'll move past this over time perhaps and you need to take paul's teaching on moral purity

01:22:52

Seriously, because that has the potential to divide you as well because you have different religious customs when it comes to moral purity

01:23:02

Paul tied sexual behavior to jesus new Command the old covenant

01:23:08

The old covenant law of moses was not the go -to source regarding sexual behavior in the church more importantly

01:23:14

And perhaps more disturbingly that's a word or offensively The old testament or the law and the prophets as they called it was not going to be the go -to source for any behavior in the church now

01:23:29

Okay, so i'll bite The old testament was not the go -to source regarding any behavior in the church.

01:23:36

He says any behavior in the church. Well We have to get finished with the show today, but i'll at least give you a couple how about um

01:23:44

The apostle paul in ephesians chapter 6 ephesians chapter 6 Many of you guys know this if your parents you've said it a lot to your kids um children

01:23:56

Obey your parents in the lord for this is right Honor your father and your mother which is the first commandment with a promise

01:24:06

Here's the apostle paul In the new testament after the life death resurrection and ascension of the savior of jesus

01:24:14

He says and he just assumes it. He doesn't say we know it's all gone We know it's all over with and it's all done with everyone

01:24:21

This is all disjointed now and everyone it's we're all in a new situation here And so i'm just going to pull this one over He says children obey your parents in the lord for this is right honor your father and your mother

01:24:32

This is the first commandment with a promise. He just assumes it Stanley says the old testament was not the go -to source regarding any behavior in the church brothers and sisters

01:24:43

That's not true It is standing before the people of god on the lord's day as a minister of the gospel

01:24:51

I say that's called a lie If you know your new testament revelation I don't think that annie stanley is an ignorant man

01:24:56

Not by any means and I think the standing before the people of god when you've read these texts I think stanley hopefully has quoted this text to his children.

01:25:04

He knows this text How about this the old testament was not the go -to source regarding any behavior for the church 1st timothy 5 19 the apostle paul says to timothy do not

01:25:17

Admit a charge against an elder except on the evidence of two or three witnesses Boy, that sounds familiar

01:25:23

It sounds like the old testament worldview sounds like the old testament revelation of god. It sounds like god's judicial standards

01:25:31

For receiving an accusation. So what do you have there? I'm giving you two examples now one Paul quotes from the ten commandments and he says obey your parents in the lord first commandment of the promise

01:25:42

And another occasion 1st timothy 5 19 paul actually quotes from the judicial law

01:25:48

In moses about receiving accusations. He says you need two to three witnesses. Oh, by the way, who else did that?

01:25:55

jesus Matthew 18 church discipline. What do you do go to them first by yourself if they don't listen you bring what?

01:26:03

Right, you bring other witnesses to do what to follow god's law about judicial standards of accusations

01:26:10

Paul here is now applying a text from god's judicial law about justice and accusations and then another one

01:26:19

And this is um, first timothy 5 18, we've got 10 commandments

01:26:25

Obey your parents and obey parents honor your father your mother We've got judicial law don't receive an accusation unless on the basis of two to three witnesses and now first timothy 5 18

01:26:35

He says to timothy don't muzzle the ox while it treads referring to paying vocational ministers

01:26:42

So they can survive You've got paul now stanley saying

01:26:48

Not the go -to source regarding any behavior for the church and paul's just assuming it left and right children 10 commandments honor your father and your mother you over there

01:26:58

Don't receive an accusation god's judicial law and you over there. Don't muzzle the ox while it treads. That's an animal husbandry law

01:27:05

That's an animal husbandry law and he assumes the moral Foundation built into that law and that's abiding in the new covenant community

01:27:14

And andy stanley says nope Doesn't apply anymore. Well, I want to say this. This is not new testament christianity.

01:27:20

This is not christianity It is just not Christianity it's not

01:27:26

Consistent with the proclamation of the gospel the apostles preach It's not consistent with the bible said about the law of god and the new covenant community

01:27:33

And we will end on this next point. I just want you to hear it in case you haven't To make this point because this is so important.

01:27:39

I originally in my notes I was going to put a screen up here that said in other words, that means thou shalt not obey the 10 commandments

01:27:46

But I knew someone would take a picture of that And it would define me for the rest of my life

01:27:53

So i'm not going to put it up there, but I want you to hear me say it Here's what the jerusalem council was saying to the gentiles

01:27:58

You are not accountable to the 10 commandments. You're not accountable to the jewish law

01:28:04

We're done with that. God has done something new besides he would say to them and he would say to you

01:28:10

Thou shalt not obey the 10 commandments because those aren't your commandments Yours are better And yours are far less complicated

01:28:19

But they are far more Demanding Because you see look up here

01:28:27

When you begin to view every single person you meet red yellow black or white rich poor

01:28:33

Vulnerable not vulnerable When you begin to view every single person you are eyeball to eyeball with as made in the image of god and a potential dwelling place for the spirit of god

01:28:46

I love all those old testament those concepts I just love the image of god.

01:28:53

Where's that from? Oh, that's from genesis chapter 1 I love the dwelling place for the spirit of god.

01:28:58

That's all old testament concepts. You see this is so broken It it's beyond repair as it is the presuppositions are completely

01:29:08

Antithetical to scripture. They're not biblical, but I wanted you to hear it. He says with his own mouth I didn't want to have it on here in case someone takes a picture of it.

01:29:16

He says but i'll go ahead and say it Well, thank god for technology and the ability to do shows like this and to go ahead and play your words for everyone to hear

01:29:23

I don't need the picture to do it But we're no longer obligated to obey the 10 commandments. We have commandments that are far less complicated

01:29:30

That's just far less complicated more demanding. Well, that's interesting because that's not the way that god talks about his law

01:29:36

Psalm 119 that's what i'll point you to that's how god feels about his law, but I think it's interesting

01:29:44

Interesting is not the right word I think it's horrifying That this man can go up there and speak to the people of god in the way that he has and he can tell them

01:29:51

Things that are just simply not the case He could disrupt the continuity between the old testament and new testament

01:29:58

He could be destructive in terms of what the new covenant promise was about the people of god the law of god within the spirit

01:30:04

Of god within them he can do it all and I think the amazing thing is is no one stood up in the congregation and said

01:30:09

Excuse me Patently false patently false Complicated love god love neighbor.

01:30:17

That's the foundation for all of god's law What's it look like to love god love neighbor? Well How about the 10 commandments?

01:30:25

Those are pretty good There's a pretty good rule there and you see of course in a new covenant Documents you see the apostles doing the very thing.

01:30:32

He says they don't do they don't root the ethics in the old testament itself You see them doing it freely just assuming it

01:30:41

Here is a man Who has a presuppositional commitment that is contrary to the scriptures itself

01:30:47

And he's reading that commitment into a passage in the book of acts That is talking about unity within the church.

01:30:54

That is what it's talking about unity within the church And he has a presupposition that he reads in he is ajeets that presupposition into the text and he makes that text

01:31:04

Say more than it's actually saying and what does he do? He goes so far as to say No more old testament ethical appeals

01:31:12

No more old testament worldview. We are completely disconnected from that now in the new testament We have something entirely new now.

01:31:19

It's grace then it was law Now it's peace and love and sweetness from god and then it was just sort of like violent and uh oppressive

01:31:27

And by the way, yes, if you keep going through this message, you'll hear him say that it was just this violent worldview and god was playing by their rules, but now it's just something so new and something so sweet and so different and so Much far less complicated in the new testament.

01:31:42

No I would say the new testament revelation Is very clear. This is not

01:31:48

Altogether complicated. It's actually I think rather beautiful and simple god keeps his promises One of the constituent elements of his promises was that he would take that law and put it within people

01:31:57

And they would now have in the new covenant the spirit of god to empower them to do that law

01:32:05

That's the message of romans chapter 8 Those who are in the flesh Can't submit to the law of god.

01:32:11

They're not even able to do so, but you are in the spirit Christians in a new covenant

01:32:18

Not dead in adam in the flesh fallen now They're alive in jesus the spirit of god

01:32:23

They relate to the law of god and the word of god an entirely different way now in the new covenant rich I saw you

01:32:30

No a couple just one thing. I wanted to add on to what you were saying You mentioned you what you don't see about someone standing up and going.

01:32:38

Excuse me. Excuse me, right? That we know of Yes, true. Yes. I mean

01:32:43

I realize i'm speculating at that point true I would venture to say the environment that he's in we have seen before I would venture to say that he's very well isolated and protected and so Whether if you look at the

01:33:01

Prosperity preachers and the healers where they're they've got the crew that's hustling out the people in the wheelchair after the show is over Right, right off to the side that nobody sees or things like that I'm sure that there are things going on to make sure that hand -picked people get to meet andy

01:33:19

Sure and anyone that disrupts or causes him any difficulty is quickly hustled out true.

01:33:26

I would not doubt that at all Yeah, yeah before we close out the show. I want to mention that I want to thank you for coming in this week

01:33:31

I was my pleasure and uh next tuesday this coming tuesday. We're going to have pastor dan confession then uh james, uh should be back and uh

01:33:41

I don't know if he's going to be awake because his right, you know, he's lopsided halfway around the world. That's right

01:33:47

But he is in glasgow today um, he I would like to ask folks to pray for him as he comes to the end stage of This particular trip a very long and grueling trip and monday

01:33:59

Not only will he be doing some teaching during the day, which will be a first The day of a debate.

01:34:05

Oh, wow, and then he is going to be debating peter d williams that night Monday night and then uh, what's the topic with peter?

01:34:14

Uh, I don't have that in front of me and suddenly drawing a blank so you caught me flat -footed on that But uh, it is on the website.

01:34:19

There's a banner up there at amin .org The um the following day he will be winging his way back here uh to uh to phoenix

01:34:28

Uh should be back in tuesday evening And so we hope to have him on the show on thursday, then he's heading back

01:34:36

Not there, but he's heading out of town again the following week. He'll be over in california doing some teaching

01:34:42

So we'll have dan kifessi back that tuesday and you've made the commitment on the 14th to come in and fill in on that thursday for him and uh,

01:34:51

That's kind of as far out as the schedule as I can get right on. Perfect Well, there you go guys There's a schedule over the next month.

01:34:57

I want to encourage All of you to go to aomen .org get connected with alpha omega ministries so much amazing and rich content over just decades uh, and I would um,

01:35:09

I would bet that you are not even aware most of you of just the the rich treasure that is deep deep within the wells of alpha omega ministries in terms of Uh debates and articles and all kinds of stuff.

01:35:23

So I would encourage you definitely to take a look at that That's what I was That's what I was raised on was all the old stuff and uh, that's where I got connected with dr.

01:35:31

White. So Uh, yeah, I encourage you to do that go to of course alpha omega ministries on youtube Make sure you guys check out some of the debates support this ministry

01:35:39

It's a huge blessing to the church all around the world. And uh, that's it guys. Thanks for having me. Dr. White Thank you for letting me sit in your seat once again, and we'll catch you guys later.