How to Share the Joy of Freely Giving with Others

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So today we want to think about what we should do and say after we've become convinced that ministry should be supported but not sold.

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Maybe you've watched one of our videos, read one of our articles or even read the

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Dorian Principle. What do you do after that? How do you talk about this with friends or family or your pastor and how do we do it in a way that's appropriate?

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You might be thinking after you've started to consider these issues how big the implications are. That this touches so many areas of our life, there's so many books being sold, so much music being commercialized, so much teaching that's behind paywalls and so many well -respected pastors who are implicated by this.

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And if you're like me then I do not want to offend people. I hate offending people.

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I'll go out of my way to avoid offending people and the temptation there is often to simply not speak about this at all because unfortunately this is the kind of topic that can be likely to offend people.

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And so those are the kind of issues we want to discuss today. But we want to say that we all believe this is a really important topic to think about.

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And most of all even though we might not like confronting people, we might not like offending and we may be a bit overwhelmed by how much is it implicated by this teaching, we want to turn back to Scripture first and foremost.

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We want to see what Scripture says on this topic but we also want to see what Scripture says about confronting people, about correcting, rebuking or just encouraging people to not commercialize their ministry but to give it away for free.

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And so in 2nd Corinthians chapter 2 verse 4, Paul had to confront the

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Corinthians on a number of issues and he says in that verse I wrote you out of great distress and anguish of heart not to grieve you but to let you know how much

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I love you. And that's the kind of attitude that we want to take in everything we write and speak on.

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That we want to be doing this out of love for people and love for the church but most of all love for the truth and love for God.

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And sometimes that's going to mean that we do have to make people feel uncomfortable. We might even have to offend people out of love for them but most of all out of love for God and the love for the truth.

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And so we're going to be talking through these issues today and it's not always going to be clear -cut.

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In fact it's going to take a lot of wisdom to know how to respond to different situations. So this is important to do for the good of all the parties involved, right?

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There's you, that's the one speaking the truth, there's the party who's hearing the truth, and then there's the church at large.

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Proverbs 118 through 19 says, But they lie in wait for their own blood. They ambush their own lives.

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Such is the fate of all who are greedy, whose unjust gain takes the lives of its possessors.

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Now this of course has in mind all different kinds of greed that wouldn't be addressed here, but if you are willing to acknowledge that violations of the

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Bible's ethic on money and ministry are one kind of greed, this applies to them, right?

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Someone who acts in a greedy manner with money is not harming other people's lives so much as they're harming their own life.

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This is bad for them. And so one who is turning another away from sin is saving them from demise.

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Yeah, and I would just add Ezekiel 318 and 19 to this mix.

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It's a kind of a drastic verse for modern Western people, but I think it does have some implications for us, the general principle of your responsibility, our responsibility to speak out when there are some serious things in Scripture that need to be heeded.

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And so the passage says, If I say to the wicked man, this is the Lord speaking, you will surely die, but you do not warn him or speak out to warn him from his wicked way to save his life.

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That wicked man will die in his iniquity and I will hold you responsible for his blood. But if you warn a wicked man and he does not turn away from his wickedness and his wicked way, he will die in his iniquity, but you will have saved yourself.

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And so there's just that level of responsibility in some sense and to some extent that we have if we've been shown the truth in this area of money and ministry.

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If we've tasted of the joy that it is to freely give, then we need to share that with others and also warn them of the consequences.

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We've done that in some of the videos, you know, there's the emotional, some of these emotional and practical consequences, right, of just how people in the rest of the world outside of the

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West are harmed spiritually by this selfishness of hoarding our resources and charging for them and limiting the access the global church has to sound teaching of the things that the

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Spirit of God has given us and that we should be giving to them freely. And there's all of that kind of stuff, but there's also the church's good is involved in this.

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Maybe you guys can speak on that. Yeah, very simply. 1st Timothy 6 10 says, for the love of money is the root of all kinds of evil.

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By craving it, some have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many sorrows. And this is in the context of Paul talking to Timothy and explaining what he needs to guard against in the church and the fact that many will come in having different doctrines and leading the church as a whole astray.

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But he describes these people who come in with different doctrines as being those who are lovers of money.

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Those people who disagree with the sound teaching of Jesus Christ are lovers of money who think that godliness is a means of gain, which it is, but only with contentment, only as a real understanding of what godliness is, not as a way of making money.

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And so this is something that affects not just the individual, but the whole church.

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And so in the end, this is good to address this sin so that you can have blood off your hands, so that the other person is saved from their own poor end, and so that the church at large is protected from any kind of false teaching or any kind of harm that comes through the love of money, as it inevitably does.

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And so it's important to recognize that this is, at the end of the day, even if it's misunderstood, it is a love of money that needs to be addressed, and it is something that can harm the church at large.

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The next question is, okay, you understand the importance of the fact that you need to address it. How should you address it?

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What do you need to do to prepare yourself? Well, the first thing you need to do to prepare yourself is to simply understand what the doctrine is.

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A lot of people already have some ideas in their head about what's wrong with the way people approach money and ministry.

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And upon encountering some of our material, a lot of times they'll think that we're already saying some of the things that they're thinking, when that's not necessarily the case.

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And then they'll repeat those things, having felt confirmed by sellingjesus .org or the

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Dorian Principle, and will attribute the thoughts in their own head to some of our writings.

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Which, you're in danger of slander when you do that kind of thing, because you haven't really spent time looking at what exactly we're saying or thinking through the matter completely.

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And then if you haven't thought through the matter very well, you're also in danger of hypocrisy, being guilty of some of the very sins you're railing against.

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So it's important to understand these things well, so that you're not being a hypocrite in this way. And even just a hypocrite in having considered the matter thoroughly and asking other people to.

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So you know, telling other people that it's important to consider this matter thoroughly and yourself not having done so.

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I have one member who occasionally listens to this podcast, so he'll know who I'm talking about, because I occasionally get on to him about this.

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But he very frequently shares this book with others, because he's excited about it, but he's only gotten halfway through himself.

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And I usually point this out whenever he reports this back to me. He says, hey, so I shared your book with this well -known pastor that he met at a conference, etc.

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I said, but have you read it yet? And he's still only halfway through. So maybe after he hears this, he'll go ahead and finish.

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Yeah, and part of the complexity here is that we all know that the Bible talks a lot about greed, and there's many different aspects to that topic.

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What we want to focus on here is more specifically the topic of money and ministry. And so while those issues are important, thinking about giving at church and tithing, thinking about those prosperity preachers who are taking people in wrong directions and teaching wrong things about money, those are all really important.

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A lot of those things people are already addressing, which is great, and we're thankful for them. But the topic of money and ministry is very neglected.

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You won't find many people talking about this at all, and that's what we want to focus on. So we don't necessarily have the answers to every single money question, but we do and have fought a lot through the topic of money and ministry, and that's what we really want to focus on.

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And so when it comes to speaking out on this issue, as I mentioned before, I'm not someone who likes to offend, and I'm not very outspoken either.

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In fact, if it wasn't for this topic, I probably wouldn't have a Facebook account or I wouldn't be on very much at all.

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I don't really like social media, but I've felt a responsibility to speak out on this issue because no one else is.

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And so there's many different topics that are important to speak about, but if you have been convicted that this is a problem, then it is really helpful to be talking about it because so few people are.

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The church has been so captive to commerce. It's just infected so much of ministry that it's really important for those who are convinced of this to be talking about it with others.

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And when we talk about issues with others, especially those who are doing the thing we're critiquing, there's a number of different ways we could address it.

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The Bible talks about three main actions you can do when you come across this kind of stuff.

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In 2 Timothy chapter 4 .2, Paul was encouraging Timothy, someone who looks after people in different churches and congregations, to correct, rebuke, and encourage with great patience and careful instruction.

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And so there's the three kind of actions there. There's correct, rebuke, and encourage, and they're not the same thing. Often people kind of just read through them very quickly and don't really distinguish between them, but Paul does.

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And note that he says with great patience and careful instruction. So we do want to go about this issue with caution, with wisdom, and great patience.

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And so when people don't listen to us, or they continue to do things we think they shouldn't be, it's important to exercise patience in that.

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But there is a difference, as I said, between encouraging, correcting, and rebuke. And you can kind of think of them on a spectrum.

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For those who have just never thought about this topic at all, or maybe they haven't published anything themselves, you might just want to encourage them to look at what the

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Bible says on this issue, or encourage them to be generous. Whereas someone who is doing something they shouldn't, they're selling a form of ministry, but they're not aware that it's wrong, and they've just gone along doing what everyone else does, then you're more dealing with an issue of correction there.

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You more want to point them to scripture, point them to the resources we've created, and explain why that isn't the right thing to do.

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And finally, when we talk about rebuke, we're really talking about the end of the spectrum there, where it is a serious case that needs to stop.

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The person is aware that it's wrong, they're intentionally doing it. That's where we get more in the realm of rebuke.

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And so it might be tempting to jump to the end of that spectrum, to start rebuking people that you don't even know, or who have never heard or fought through this issue.

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But we'd really encourage you to, as Paul says there, do these things with great patience and careful instruction.

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Having fought through these things yourself, also thinking through the situation, what is that person doing that is wrong?

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How wrong is it? Are they even aware it's wrong? Have they learned anything about this topic before?

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Those are the kind of things you really want to think about. And I would just add and repeat, and we've said this many times, but we are coming at this from an angle, mainly assuming and hoping that most people are in error in this area of money and ministry.

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They're in error unwittingly, unknowingly. It's not on their radar.

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They haven't thought through it. They've never been encouraged to think about it in any way, shape or form.

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We think most people are well -meaning, and we hope that when you are approaching people in your circles, that will be the case, so that it's not somebody who is some kind of evil intentionally,

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I'm going to see how much I can rip people off and go against Scripture. We hope and assume that's a very, very small minority of the cases.

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Yeah, and Scripture definitely does say there'll be people out there that are in it for the money.

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They love money. They put on the appearance of being a good person, and you can so easily get away with that today because everything is so commercialized.

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You can absolutely write a book to make a profit, to make money, and no one would be the wiser because everyone else is doing the exact same thing.

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A big part of this problem is that although most people we believe are well -intentions, the fact that they are commercializing their ministries makes it really hard to spot those who are actually in it for the money.

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We do have to be careful about not accusing people of having bad motives, but at the same time, there will be people out there that do.

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Another verse that is helpful in this matter is Proverbs 9 .8. Do not rebuke a mocker, or he will hate you.

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Rebuke a wise man, and he will love you. There will be people out there that whether you correct or rebuke them, they may hate you for it, and that's on them.

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Whereas those who are wise, those who have genuine intentions, you may be afraid that you're going to offend them, but it turns out actually they will love you for it in the end.

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Because when we point people to the truth, when we point them back towards God, back to the way He wants us to live, that is a wonderful, wonderful thing.

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The whole gospel is based on the fact that we are all sinners, all three of us in this conversation are sinners.

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We continue to struggle in different areas of our life, and there's many ways we may have fallen short in this area as well, in the past as well.

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Certainly, none of us had as strong convictions on this topic as we do now. So yeah, we want to remember there was a time when we were a bit confused on this topic as well, and we want to be compassionate and patient with people.

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Right. It's really easy to get fatalistic about people or to despair and say, oh, there's no way this person will be convinced either because they're already too involved in the business of selling ministry or because of something else about their personality.

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But if you take that kind of posture, you're not really relying on the Holy Spirit, which is how any of these conversations in correction need to go.

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What we're relying on is not our own ability or our own wisdom or our own strength. We're really relying on the

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Holy Spirit. And so if you do trust God to guide

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His people, to lead them into all truth, don't take a posture of despair or hopelessness when you think about approaching someone about this topic, but rather speak the truth in love.

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And remember, love believes all things. It's willing to trust that God will work in that person's heart.

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Yeah. And just to echo a little bit more of what John said, yeah, there will be sinful people who are doing things intentionally as well.

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I would encourage you also as you go out with hope and with boldness and with patience, also to not be surprised at people's ability to self -justify the complexity of sin.

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You know, the Bible gives us such a robust theology of the sinfulness in the human heart, our sinful condition that has broken some of our reasoning, has enabled us with infinite abilities for self -justification and reasoning our way out of conviction and all of those kinds of things.

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You know, go in also not being too surprised if this does end up creating reactions of negativity and pride or slander or mockery, all of those kinds of things, right?

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And so at the same time, you know, we do believe that this is what we would call a stronghold in our culture, in our churches.

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This is something that is part of the very fabric of much of Western Christianity for a reason, and when you threaten that, it can cause some things that are unpleasant.

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So, yeah, this topic is definitely going to rustle some jimmies. Luke 16, 14 through 15 says, the

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Pharisees who were lovers of money heard all these things and they ridiculed him. And he said to them, this is

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Jesus responding, you are those who justify yourselves before men. So, this topic is one where people are very driven toward self -justification.

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Yeah, just like Andrew said, you've got to be ready for that and just know what you're heading into and being satisfied that you're on the

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Lord's side. Pete Yeah. So, yeah, so how do you start, you know, what is the best way or what are some tips for how to start these conversations, how to start bringing this topic up, the

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Dorian principle, how to get it on people's radar, all of those sorts of things. And so, the first thing we would suggest is consider what people already know and what they can handle.

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And, you know, this is going to take wisdom, it's going to take you asking some sincere questions, getting to know the people, understanding where they're coming from, and having the wisdom and social tact with which to approach them.

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Also, there's all kinds of different ways that we continue to provide people with to expose people to the truth of freely giving.

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And so, you know, think about those things. We've got physical books. Not everybody likes physical books.

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Some people love them, some people don't. We've got tracts. What's the difference?

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Well, a lot of people, as you know, don't want to read a whole book anymore. They don't have the time for that. And so, maybe they need something that's really short and sweet, or are they more audiovisual sorts of people?

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And that's why we're creating videos and podcasts, and we're trying to serve people where they're at, right?

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And that's what we would encourage you to think about. Where is this person at? What is the most appealing way for him to consume content and get exposure to these truths?

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Pretty straightforward, but it's worth mentioning. If you're wondering about the tract, if you order a physical copy of the

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Dorian Principle, it comes with a tract. And so, the idea is that you'd be able to hand that out to a friend if you think that handing them the book would be too heavy for them at the moment.

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So, take a look around the website and check out the different articles we have. So, if you know someone who's involved in music ministry, go ahead and send them the

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CCLI article, or you know someone who cares a lot about Bible translation, send them the Bible translation article.

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Just today, today being the day we're recording this episode, released a video that's a five -minute introduction to the

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Dorian Principle. Just generically, that's a really good place to start for someone who only has five minutes to look into this.

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So, just take a look around the website, look for what kind of resource is going to be most applicable to the person you're talking about and most interesting to them, so that you're not necessarily hitting them with a 140 -page read, you know, all at once, unless they're into that kind of thing, unless they are a serious reader.

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Pete Yeah. And I would just add to that, you know, there is, as we've said, a vast variety of different kinds of things on sellingjesus .org

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that are intentionally created to give you an arsenal of resources that will be relevant to all sorts of different kinds of people.

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But your job is to be extremely familiar with those resources, because if you don't know what's in your arsenal, you can't really effectively wield it.

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And so, you know, be aware, like have a really good knowledge of what's available, what it addresses, how it addresses it, you know.

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Be ready, be really ready to be able to serve people and direct people who are busy, who are maybe irritable, to be able to quickly direct them to the things that are most relevant and most interesting and helpful to them.

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Paul Yeah. And we also address different topics, subtopics, such as Bible translations, worship music, conferences.

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So, you might want to think through if this is someone who is selling a form of ministry, perhaps you could forward them an article that's relevant to the kind of ministry they're doing, or it could just be a ministry they're interested in.

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And that could be a good way of them thinking through, hmm, yeah, there are some issues here.

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Why is it okay to do what we're doing, but it's not okay to put an entrance fee on a church?

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And so, pointing them back to church is often a good option, because it's the one area, thankfully, that most

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Christians have still protected from commerce. And so, most churches, I don't know of a church that you have to pay an entrance fee to go in, which is great.

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I do know there are special events at churches where you do have to pay an entrance fee. But thankfully, Christians have guarded the church, guarded

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Sunday services from commerce, mostly so far. So, it's a great comparison to make, comparing what we do at church to the kind of ministries that have been commercialized.

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Yeah, absolutely. And I will just add one final thing here, and that is take a posture of service as you approach people.

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And that means maybe you could offer your time and your effort to either boil something down for them in writing, even translating something for somebody.

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Say, hey, let's read this book together so we can finish it and we'll meet every week and talk about it.

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Offer those sorts of things. That posture of service, I think, will go a long way instead of just saying, hey, here's a book, read it.

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Yeah, and we're also available as well to help in your discussions. So, we try to make sure that, yeah, if you need to, we can jump into conversation.

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We're happy to chat to people. Why? Not because we're selling anything, not because we're some fringe group or a cult.

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It's because we're pastors. All three of us have been doing pastoral ministry for a long time. We're preachers.

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We look closely at God's Word, and we love the people we look after. We go to mostly pretty boring churches, so nothing fringe or anything.

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Just boring, faithful, Bible -based churches. So, yeah, because we love people, we love

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God's Word, that's why we're willing to help when we can. And you might also want to think through the kind of language you use.

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We are a bit confrontational in some of our languages, so we will call it selling ministry because we want to call it for what it is.

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That's not intended to imply that everyone has bad motives. Some people may assume that when we call it selling ministry.

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We call it selling because that's how the dictionary defines it, offering something in exchange for money.

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That's what selling is. So, it is accurate to call it that. But if you don't want to use that language, then maybe you can consider calling it charging for ministry or something that may not provoke a strong reaction from people.

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So, we do believe, you know, it depends on the context. And so, there'll be times when we are very gentle in our language, very careful with the words we use.

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And there'll be times when we're blunt and straightforward because we believe the truth matters. And so, yeah, do think about the people you're talking to.

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Think about what would be most helpful and most appropriate, depending on the you're talking to. So far, we've been talking about how you would speak to others in general.

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There is one particular person or smaller group of people that you really should speak to, and that is your local pastor or your local church leadership, your pastors, your elders, those

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God has put over your body. And that is because if they are responsible for doing the work of ministry, then this is important to them.

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And also, if they're responsible for teaching others, then the way that this doctrine, this good biblical ethic around money in ministry ideally would spread is through the construct that Christ has established in the local church.

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And we would love to see more local pastors embracing this truth and sharing it with others.

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So, please do talk to your church leadership, you know, by sending them whatever resources we've been just talking about or through whatever conversations seem appropriate to you.

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Now, there are a lot of considerations that go into talking to your pastor about this. First of all, if they're one who is already engaged in selling ministry in some form, definitely approach that graciously.

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You know, you want to express appreciation and gratitude for the work that they do, and you want to acknowledge agreement where there is agreement, and you don't want to take an overly accusatory tone.

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First Timothy 5 .19 says, do not entertain an accusation against an elder except on the testimony of two or three witnesses.

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And so, where that becomes appropriate is not necessarily in the identification of selling ministry, that may be obvious enough, but in attributing motives.

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Now, if you listen to me enough, you might hear me saying two different things, because I'm pretty quick to say that someone does have wrong motives if they are a lover of money, in a sense, if they are selling ministry.

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However, there really is a difference between overt motives and, you know, subconscious motives or however else you might say it, implicit motives.

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Jesus did say that you cannot serve both God and money. And so, it is true that if someone is serving money, they are not serving

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God in that aspect. Now, the degree to which they are consciously trying to serve greedy intentions or the degree to which they are with good intention, just trying to further the work of ministry, all that is very variable.

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And so, if you're going to attribute motive or speak along those lines, don't take an accusatory tone unless there would be very good cause to do so, the kind of cause that First Timothy 5 .19

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would speak of. So, yeah, approach it, approach the matter graciously.

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And then also approach it patiently. Recognize that your pastor is a busy person who has a lot of priorities that may come before this in terms of what the needs of the church are at this moment.

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And this is a topic that takes a lot of time to think through biblically. And so, just recognize that and be a patient person as you're addressing this.

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And don't just discourage him. A lot of pastors can be very discouraged by these kinds of conversations.

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And so, that's important. Chris Yeah, absolutely. You want to approach this as someone who cares about your pastor, wants to come alongside of him and helping him think through this thing or encourage him in this work and demonstrate some excitement over the

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Word of God. Pastors love that, but they don't love it when someone comes to them and hands them a bunch of with kind of a, yeah, the schoolmaster attitude of, here, do this work or you need to fix this thing.

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Right? None of that is encouraging. As John said, we're all doing the work of ministry.

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I've been a pastor for some time now, and I know the difference between someone who really cares about my good and the good of the church when they want to talk to me about these things and someone who doesn't.

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So, definitely have that in mind because that's going to change your pastor's receptiveness to it as well.

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And one of your jobs as a church member is to be peaceful and to keep peace in the church. So, you definitely don't want to be stirring up division where there doesn't need to be division.

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Now, that doesn't mean that you need to be quiet. This is something that you should be speaking about, but it does mean that you need to be loving and patient in the matter.

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So, that's how you are to keep peace about this is not by being quiet, but by being loving and patient.

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Now, let's say you reach a situation where maybe you were a little what they call cage stage about this, where it would have been better to have put you in a cage rather than to let you loose on other people because you were getting a little too zealous about this topic.

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And let's say your elders talk to you about calming it down a bit. Well, if their comments are warranted, then definitely do heed what they're saying.

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And for the sake of the peace of church, there's no need to be stirring up divisions unnecessarily.

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At the same time, prayerfully search your own heart. And if you really believe that there is an objective of silencing truth on this more than a godly concern for the health of the church, then figure out how to address that too.

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As far as specifics of how to address that, that's going to be different in every situation. And it's hard to say, but just know that your pastor has a lot of things they need to worry about, a lot of concerns about the good of the church.

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And so, love thinks the best in these things. Assume good intentions with your pastor if he's not handling every concern you have about this right now.

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Yeah, that's excellent. And it's great that it's coming from you, Conley, as a pastor.

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So, we're coming at this, like he said, with a lot of empathy. This kind of brings us just to emphasize the importance of prayer.

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This is all going back to a matter of the heart, heart change that we believe

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God is the only one who can do. Just plain and simple. There is no amount of salesmanship and eloquence and every other strategy that you can muster that will ultimately change anybody's mind and heart.

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And so, we deeply encourage you to completely surround all of your efforts or immerse all of your efforts in prayer.

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Prayer for the people you're talking to. Prayer for yourself, for your own sincerity, humility, gentleness.

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This can't be emphasized enough, I'm sure. Yeah, 1 Corinthians 3, 6 -7 says,

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I planted the seed, and Apollos watered it, but God made it grow.

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So, neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything but only God who makes things grow.

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And so, go out with that expectation fully settled in your heart that God is going to be the one ultimately who brings any fruit out of what you're doing.

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And pray for that fruit. Don't forget that. And don't just pray for yourself or that person, but pray for us as well.

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We would love your prayer, especially if you really care about this topic. John, Andrew, and I have limited time that we can devote to this.

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And honestly, every time I spend time writing an article or working on something for SellingJesus .org,

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I really do feel like it's a divine providence that I have a moment and the energy and clarity to address something.

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So, please pray for more of that for us. Please pray for our efforts to bear fruit.

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This won't be done without prayer. So, yeah, please do pray for us. So, we're telling you about how you can talk to others, but we would love to talk to you.

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If you have any questions, we would love to talk to someone you're talking to if they have questions and want to talk to us.

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And probably the best way to reach out to us is SellingJesus .org

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at gmail .com. Please send us an email there, and we'll be happy to address any questions you have.

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We really are sincerely trying to advance the biblical ethic here, and we would love any opportunity we could get to talk to someone who wants to talk about this.

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So, please do reach out. We're not overburdened by anything that you would send. We're not, you know, it's not a burden to us.

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It's not something that we go, oh, no, more homework. It's really something where we would love to talk to people who are interested in this topic and want to know more.

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Darrell Bock And we would love to hear about any victories that you have, any encouraging testimonies from yourself or others around you.

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That really makes our day. And we've had those come in in the past, and it's really a joy to hear how people are being touched, how lives are being changed, and how action is being taken to do things differently.