September 8, 2017 Show with Costi Hinn on “From Word of Faith Heresy to Sovereign Grace Truth: The Testimony of an Apple that Did Fall Very Far Away From the Tree”

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Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

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Carlisle, Pennsylvania it's iron sharpens iron a radio platform on which pastors

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Christian scholars and theologians Address the burning issues facing the church and the world today

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Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us Iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage quote we are cautioned to take heed when we converse with and Directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour

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And we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions

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Now here's our host Chris Arnton Good afternoon,

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania Lake City, Florida and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at iron sharpens iron

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Radio .com this is Chris Arntz and your host of iron sharpens iron radio wishing you all a happy Friday on this eighth day of September 2017 and I am so excited about today's interview

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It's a first -time guest who has a last name that I'm sure everyone in this

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Listening audience has recognized or will recognize Perhaps not for very good reasons

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But we have on the program today for the very first time Kosti Hinn that's

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H I NN who is nephew of renowned word -of -faith leader Benny Hinn and Today, he is an associate pastor of adult ministries at Mission Bible Church of Tustin, California Today we are going to be addressing the theme from word -of -faith heresy to sovereign grace truth

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The testimony of an apple that did fall very far away from the tree

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And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time ever to iron sharpens iron radio

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Kosti Hinn Thank you so much Chris, I really appreciate you having me on all the pleasure is all mine and we have two co -hosts today

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We have on the phone serving as co -host I believe for the first time he's serving as co -host

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But he's been a guest on iron sharpens iron radio many times John Sampson who is an author and pastor of Kings Church in Peoria, Arizona It's great to have you back on the program pastor

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John It's great to be with you guys, I'm looking forward to Talk about Amen and in studio with me is the reverend buzz

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Taylor my usual co -host and it's great to be here today Once again, and it's good to meet you guys

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It's interesting that all three folks here that are joining me on this program have considerable backgrounds in the

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Pentecostal charismatic movement Kosti Hinn and John Sampson being formerly involved in the word of faith movement very heavily in fact,

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John Sampson as many of you who listen regularly to Iron sharpens iron radio will remember that John Sampson before coming to the doctrines of sovereign grace and becoming a reformed

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Baptist pastor was not only a word -of -faith pastor, but was a word -of -faith television host on the

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TBN network and God had mercy upon him and delivered him from that and Of course

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Kosti Hinn our guest today who is the nephew of Benny Hinn? was heavily heavily involved in that movement as well and I'd like to first of all give our audience the email address where they can send in questions of their own

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It's Chris Arnzen at gmail .com chris ar n z n at gmail .com

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And please give us at least your first name your city and state in your country of residence If you live outside the

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USA, please only remain completely anonymous if it is about a personal and private matter

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Over which you are asking perhaps you are in a word -of -faith truth of word -of -faith Church and you are beginning to doubt

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Or have questions about the teachings there and you don't want to identify yourself publicly at this stage of the game

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Well, I understand that completely you may remain anonymous or for any other reason that compels you to remain anonymous

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We will accept that and and grant your request other than that They'll please give us at least your first name city and state and country of residence

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Kosti Before we go into your own background your the religion of your youth

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Your upbringing and so on I'd like for you to tell our listeners about Mission Bible Church of Tustin, California Yeah, thanks

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Chris, we are a church located right in the heart of Orange County and We are

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Reformed in our so Terry ology you and I have joked before I'm certainly reformed, but we are we're pre -millennial if that matters

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We're going to talk about we're going to talk about more serious stuff today, so that would be a

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Secondary another conversation, but yeah, we have an amazing teaching pastor Pastor Anthony would he is a brother a friend one of my best friends on this whole earth, and he's actually the pastor who?

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Discipled me through this whole process, so I'll talk about that a little bit today and the church is growing we have a deep conviction for preaching the word and nothing else and So for for our congregation, which is much younger

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It's a lot more of a rarer thing, and we are just so grateful that Christ is building his church here

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Lots of families a lot of a lot of babies being born in our church, so that's fun That's the number one way to grow a church by the way everybody just keeps having babies and so lots of family ministry

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Bible through and through and Just very thankful thankful for my role to be a part of that church and for the people that I serve with and the people

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We serve so mission Bible Church Yeah Our website is a mission Bible org and then we've got a blog as well equip the

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Saint And we're just doing our best to serve Christ and serve his people so thanks for letting me share that Oh my pleasure and one thing

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I find interesting is that you will have I have found a number of Charismatic or Pentecostal pastors or just Christians in general who when they discover the doctrines of sovereign grace or reform theology or Calvinism However, you want to phrase it

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They do at times Become cessationists they leave everything that is uniquely

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Charismatic or Pentecostal behind them when they come to the doctrines of grace, but there are also quite a number maybe even more who

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While embracing a new theology in regard to God's sovereignty They retain their charismatic beliefs and they are not cessationists their continuationists are continuous

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What how would you describe? The church there where you are pastoring or co -pastoring mission

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Bible Church of Tustin, California in that regard We are Cessationist and we have a lot of people that come to our church out of the charismatic movement and from even open but cautious Continuous continuous backgrounds and the biggest question at membership classes and membership

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Breakfast is when we hold those for new incoming members is you know, what's up with the cessation thing?

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Do you guys not believe that God does miracles? Do you not believe God heals? Can you explain that and I'll tell you what

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Chris we find ourselves explaining more often Not the the biblical argument for cessation people.

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I think understand that because they look around and go. Yep Nobody's wielding miracles like the Apostles.

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Nobody's just healing. Otherwise, they would go empty We've got chalk Children's Hospital of Orange County out here a very nationally recognized hospital

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Someone would go clear the hospital right and then claim that that's a verification of their gospel message and on off we go

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Right, just like the early church. So people don't really argue with that. They see it It's pretty obvious in our world today that it's not the norm

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But we often have to explain that being a cessationist does not mean we have have put

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God in a box Quote we just look at what God has done and he's laid out his word So in a way, he's bound himself to his word and he's sovereign and he can do whatever he wants

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So he points to points the church to the Bible We see it in the

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Bible and we often tell people we believe God heals. We believe God is sovereign He can do what he wants

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But our church's position is one that we're not going to come in here and hold healing services just for healing

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We're not going to come in the church and start talking in tongues and babbling away We're not going to sit around and reflect and meditate hoping for a mystical experience we're going to preach the word like Paul said we're going to operate the way the church ought to operate and If people are sick, we pray for them people come to elder meetings and we've seen people get healed and that's fine but It's we don't live on that.

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We don't create a healing ministry all of a sudden I know wonderful wonderful guys Maybe some of you guys even have

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Known people who get healed of cancer or people that couldn't have a baby and then they get pregnant praise

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God for that We ought to pray in faith and trust the Lord, but it's always I will be done not my will be done so that's the way we approach cessation and It's it's really

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People make a mountain out of a molehill with it and I always make the joke to people

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When you look at John Piper's long -term ministry at Bethlehem, I like to use MacArthur and Piper I'm a younger guy

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So I've kind of watched the evolution of this from from the next generation down if you look at the way Bethlehem Baptist is church and Grace Community Church does church and we all know

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Piper's open but cautious and MacArthur's in the hardcore cessationist It's funny to me that people make such a big deal about all the different arguments

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But they both have done church the same way for how many or did church the same way for how many decades it?

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Being an open but cautious person being a cessationist There's really not a big difference if you look at the

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Bible and you go off what the Bible says Then a lot of the crazy stuff just doesn't make its way in the church doors

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So I think people make a much bigger deal of it than they need to and by the way

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No need to apologize about your pre -millennialism Even though I'm not pre millennial some of my greatest heroes of the faith were like Charles Spurgeon and Andrew Andrew Bonar and his brother

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Horatius Bonar. So there are a lot of John MacArthur You could go on and on with my heroes who are pre -millennials

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In fact, it's interesting that our confessions of faith, I'm sorry, brother The only real difference the reform guys tease me is

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Are you fully reformed? Are you all millennial yet? I just want to say that Charles Spurgeon was pre -millennial, but now he's met

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Jesus. His view has changed And The it's interesting that our confessions of faith all of the reformed confessions

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Whether it be the 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith or the Westminster or the three forms of unity the

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Specifics of eschatology that would separate pre -mill post millennial aren't there they just insist that you believe in the visible physical return of Christ at the end of civilization and so on on earth that is and but we are going to be talking about a lot of things involving your journey

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Kosti and If you could start with your childhood What kind of faith or religion you were raised in if any?

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I'm not certain when you eventually came to be a participant in your uncle

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Benny Hinn's theology, and I'm not even sure when he Truly became immersed and if not a leader in the word of faith movement, but if you could start with yourself

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In your own upbringing yeah, I grew up in a in a home where my dad is and it was a pastor and planted a church up in Vancouver, British Columbia up in Canada and I grew up.

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I call it gospel plus because we had a really clear understanding of the gospel the historic gospel the cross sin and Redemption what

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Christ did his atoning sacrifice and then the plus part is You know, yeah, there's all that about Christ and the gospel, but then there's this

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John 10 10 abundant life parentheses now thing and That abundant life.

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Yeah, sure It's heaven but there's this whole thing now that if you tap into it you can start living heaven on earth and so that was

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My childhood in a nutshell my parents to be honest with you As an adult man now in ministry with all that's gone on with with With some of the interviews and different stuff

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I've written and done I've had some good conversations with my parents in the past. I was a year and a half to two years and They've they've asked a lot of questions and I've asked a lot of questions and together

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We've we've been walking together as is biblically Disciplined in that sense

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I don't just go and hang out and you know have dinner with my uncle and go kick back with all the false teachers

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But for purposed evangelism, I've talked with my family and a lot of my family members who aren't necessarily false teachers

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But have been in the movement. They've been really clear about my childhood all of our childhood Which was we followed what we were taught and my parents that doesn't let anyone off the hook, right?

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But it does explain to people that are listening kind of what what we believed in where we came from My dad is by no stretch of the imagination a theologian a lot of the times we received books and material from Uncle Benny From those others who were in the word of faith movement who were in the assemblies of God denomination up in Canada that were gleaning from some of the wild excesses and so that material was

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Inundating our church and Basically, you know looking back my dad and my mom had an opportunity to grow a church based on the circle they were in and so they chose to go word of faith and we had everything from Holy laughter nights to a holy water

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I remember an epidemic in my early early preteen years in which water bottles were all over the stage and We would pray for the water and then dish out the water to people and they would take it and they would go get healed or claim they got healed or we would pour it on people during the service and kind of like Pentecostal churches use olive oil a lot of the time to anoint with oil or They would do it.

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We kind of throw water everywhere and anoint people with holy water And we had we had everybody

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Come, you know, we were I'd to those like Kenneth Copeland and Gloria Copeland and we were tied to the

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Kenneth Hagin He was like a heroic word of faith And my uncle Benny was definitely more famous than my dad and very much in the mix.

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And so by being Extended family we would come along for that ride a lot of the time

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But God existed for me. That was the way I interpreted it all. It's what was taught you give to get

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The the pastors idolized as a holy man who's anointed above everybody else

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Not the first Timothy three above reproach Qualified by God held to a high standard we ought to respect our leaders

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So but it was taken to the nth degree in that any challenge was viewed as touching the

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Lord's anointed You could not question you could not push back You could not hold any position but for what the leader said and so we built a sort of royal family if you will and Though I don't think any of my family members would ever admit it that way

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It was very much that it was kind of like a royal family or a ministry mafia very tight gag order you stuck together and And we were sovereign over everything not really

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God. So that was more or less my childhood In the movement and then as I got to my teenage years

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Kids started to say stuff and I started to realize that my uncle wasn't

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Revered as revered outside of our circle as he was inside and And so that's kind of where it all started to come to a head in my teenage years

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Huh? It's interesting that you used that phrase that you viewed yourself as a royal family

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Because I have heard word of faith Pentecostal Talk show hosts and pastors

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Use that kind of phraseology in general For those who are believers in the word of faith

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And I can even remember a friend of mine who? because of his his business that he owns which is in an alarm company alarms and All kinds of protection devices for your business your place of business surveillance cameras and all that kind of thing he

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Developed a friendship with one of the most notorious Word -of -faith

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Pentecostals on Long Island, New York and He's he's pretty much globally known this individual and they have become friends.

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In fact, I think they're still friends he now he he views this person as a

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Part of a mission field because he views him as somebody that needs to be saved. This is my friend Because when he first met this pastor, he was not a

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Christian but he was invited to this pastor's birthday party and He comes to the birthday party and there is a stripper there and He was shocked.

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My friend was shocked and he said to this minister How on earth can you have a stripper here?

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This is really disturbing. You're supposed to be a man of God a minister and The the pastor's response was

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I'm a child of the king. I'm a prince I could do whatever I want to do and Ironically, I have another friend who was a member before he became

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Spiritually enlightened and he left that same pastors congregation I have a friend who was raised in that church and his wife was invited to a

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Bridal shower that that pastor's wife was having for a member of the church and there was a male stripper there

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I mean This I don't know if this kind of thing was going on in your circles because I know that you can't use a cookie -cutter approach to these things but there seems to be a pride and arrogance and a sense of entitlement that some folks in this

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Theological spectrum demonstrate is this anything is this totally foreign to your experience or is this something that sounds familiar to you?

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It sounds familiar we didn't have Those type of experiences growing up My parents were very very strict.

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And so if you think of the the legalistic Holiness type of Pentecostal approach

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I mean we were No one wore earrings, my mom would take the earrings out of my sister's ears when we went to other churches certain places

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I mean my my parents sheltered us. They were very very strict and so they would have never allowed us to be in those environments, but My wife can tell you she's actually listening.

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So hi, honey. I love you She can tell you that I mrs. In growing and I mrs.

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In So As we were growing together the shock for her was

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Not necessarily what you described at some of those those events. But for for her she was shocked at how

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How we did do whatever we wanted and we thought we could do whatever we wanted So again, there were certain you said you can't be cookie cutter

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There were certain boundaries that we had it's like an honest beef, right? So we didn't necessarily go wild with certain types of parties but we

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Did what we wanted with the offerings We Work if we didn't want to we didn't show up to the church office if we didn't want to we decided to go on a

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Seven -day vacation we would just go There was no boundaries. There was no elders.

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There was no oversight You'd spend whatever money you want you could fund raise at any time

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You just go preach and you tell people that God told you there's an anointing for gifts of $1 ,000 everybody who gives $1 ,000 and receive a special anointing and And so again,

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I call it an honest beef because while it wasn't overly In the in the sexual scene like you described it was very much

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Manipulation and greed what sin is sin in that regard? It was working itself out just in other ways and when my wife came along in my life

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I think that was one of the biggest shocks for her is Here's this family that she thought you know as Christians and gospel and it was a little bit

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Had some questions about the way we did things but if she saw things like that, it was clear that we kind of made this into our own enterprise and did as we pleased and So my my family which you guys know you've seen it all and with my uncle we liked it was houses and cars

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It wasn't really wild with women and alcohol. It was cars and houses and lavish lifestyles and very much

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That kind of it was who is greed which you know, if you study enough sin It's like playing a game of whack -a -mole, right so if you can really greed is just lust

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Expressing itself in a different way. It wasn't coming out sexually it was coming out in greed and in some circles it is all of the above and We did know some friends and some ministry.

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I guess I only need to name names. Most of them are dead now but there was a lot of alcohol there was a lot of sexuality there was that wildness and Ironically we were pharisaic in our own circle and we would often point the finger and say yes

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See that that's not anointed. That's that's carnal. That's worldly Meanwhile, we were taking everybody to the cleaners just for money.

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Yeah Well what you said truly? Rings a bell with me because I have been in the radio advertising business since the mid 80s and in the

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Christian radio business nearly as long And it is at least in the

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New York area. I'm not sure if this is a nationwide phenomenon But in the

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New York area it is notorious amongst account executives in Christian radio stations

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That they know if there is a word of faith Pentecostal Pastor around or if he's having in an event

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That you usually could sell that person advertising without a delay without waiting because if that pastor wants to spend

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Thousands of dollars on an ad campaign He doesn't he doesn't need to submit to the vote of a board or even have a discussion with a board he just said yeah, sure and He'll just take a fistful of cash and pay it

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And But this is another irony is that they also this group these word -of -faith churches and Pentecostals I did not succumb to that temptation.

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They were not among my clients, but The station would often be racked with unpaid bills because that these

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Ministries and churches very often would not pay the entire amount that they owe They may they might pay the down payment that was required to get the ad campaign rolling but then that would the payments would stop and then they would wind up not being paid for the entirety of what they

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Purchased so that was another blemish upon of what they were doing, obviously When we come back from the break, we're going to our first break now this is going to be it's always difficult pastor

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John Sampson when I have a Co -host on the phone because I can't see you. I can't see you waving to me wanting to ask a question or something.

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So Just keep in mind that you can chime in any time that you see an opening or hear an opening

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Where you have a question that you want to pose for Kosti as long as you're not jumping on his words while he's still speaking

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Just chime in any time you want and I might as well give you the opportunity to ask a question of Kosti when we return from the break

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So if anybody else would like to join us with a question and we already have some people Waiting to have their questions asked and answered by Kosti.

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Our email address again is chrisarnsen at gmail .com chrisarnsen at gmail .com

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Please give us your first name at least your city and state and your country of residence If you live outside of the good old

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USA, don't go away We'll be right back with Kosti Hinn and his testimony of leaving the word of faith movement

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Eastern Time for a visit to the pastor's study because everyone needs a pastor Welcome back.

31:49

This is Chris Arnzen If you just tuned us in our guest today for the full two hours with about 90 minutes to go is

31:55

Kosti Hinn nephew of renowned Word of Faith leader Benny Hinn He's an associate pastor of adult ministries at Mission Bible Church of Tustin, California And today we are addressing from Word of Faith heresy to Sovereign grace truth the testimony of an apple that did fall very far away from the tree and we have also co -hosting the program today a pastor

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John Sampson of Kings Church in Peoria, Arizona Also a former Word of Faith Pentecostal who we've had on this program many times and in studio with me is the

32:28

Reverend Buzz Taylor My normal co -host if you'd like to join us on the air, our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com

32:34

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com and we do have a question from one of my co -hosts

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Pastor John Sampson of Kings Church in Peoria, Arizona Yes.

32:47

Hi Kosti. It's great to talk with you again. I'm sure you agree that Amongst what we call

32:54

Pentecostal and Charismatics, there's a wide range of theologies oftentimes the church that is

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Distinguished that way would maybe or maybe not have found biblical theology about God about Who Jesus is?

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You can find some very good material there Very strange and heretical material when we're talking about the

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Word of Faith What would you say are the distinctives when we move from the lavish lifestyle you described to looking at?

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What is the root of the teaching? How do we define it? What would they? define God as Jesus as the gospel as in the

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Word of Faith and I'm interested in your answer that's an excellent question because you can have people who are Theologically very orthodox, but who also live lavish lifestyles when their congregation is

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On the border of starvation, you know, they're not living even according to the average

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Lifestyle of the person in the church, but if you could that's an excellent question Kosti Yeah, absolutely

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I like that you brought up Doctrine because it really a man's lavish lifestyle

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It might be an indicator of some things but it is not an indicator of the main thing and the main thing is in these

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Word of Faith churches you're gonna have a historically heretical teaching on The deity of Christ and so this goes back to first century if anybody is interested at all

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I hope people are at some point. I mean, I know we've got a lot of distractions nowadays But church history is rich with evidence

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That from the earliest times in the early church the deity of Christ was assaulted and so you'll hear things like Jesus did his miracles lived died as a

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Sinless man not as God. He came down and just became a man and therefore That's why we can do all these things too.

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We can do miracles too. We can live sinless lives, too We can you know do anything and Kenneth Copeland who's one of the great

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Greatest leaders and I don't mean that in a good sense. I mean just great in his scale his scope He's one of the highest top greatest leaders in the

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Word of Faith movement learned everything from Kenneth Hagan He says things and I'm quoting him right now

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That God told him You know a twice -born man beat Satan therefore you can too and and meaning twice -born

35:32

There's another one you'll hear in these word -of -faith circles that Jesus was born again.

35:38

He was the first born -again man and It'll you know this John cuz you were in that whole circle as well

35:44

There's variances some will teach that he became God or received the

35:50

Spirit And was not now just a man at his baptism when the dove came down the

35:55

Holy Spirit like a dove and others will say No, it was his Transfiguration something happened there, but the point is there's arguments across the board even in their own camp that have nothing close within them like Orthodox Christian teaching about the deity of Christ, which is that he came as The God -man his manhood was in that he was born of the

36:19

Virgin Mary, but he never Laid aside his deity. He never stopped being God.

36:24

He simply like we know to be true Withheld or limited himself for the purpose of what he came to do because we couldn't have come in Contact as human beings with his actual glory.

36:36

So there's things that he laid aside By taking on the role like he did to die. That's laying aside his right

36:43

He easily could have called down angels right easily could have been seated at the right hand of the father But his deity was never laid aside and what word -of -faith teachers do is take that Bump it in and what it allows them to accomplish is

36:57

Wealth power authority within their teaching ministry because they can say just like Jesus now came as just a man and did all this and could do all this we tend to and that our rocks as you know wealth money

37:14

Authority power there's no limit on their ministry or I'm putting that in quotes There's no limit on how far they can take things because they're simply

37:23

Tapping in to the inheritance that Jesus has given that to live on earth. Does that make sense?

37:28

Oh, yeah, it's Yeah, that's that's disturbing that's even more deadly a sin than any of the other uniquely charismatic or Pentecostal attachments to this word -of -faith movement that that is a damnable truly damnable unquestionably damnable teaching

37:52

Yeah Yeah, I wanted to say one of the reasons I was I stayed in the movement so long was there was no central headquarters

38:00

That was reviewing what I believed and taught that I had to answer to and I remember coming to United States from a word -of -faith background in England and Discussed the subject of what happened from the cross to the throne

38:17

One of the cardinal doctrines of the word of faith Kenneth Copeland and others have outlined some very heretical

38:26

Material in that realm and I remember asking another word of faith pastor what he thought about the issue and about some of Copeland's statements and he just said well, he's just a jerk in that area and I was just amazed that he could have the freedom to say that and he says yeah,

38:46

I don't buy that at all And I thought oh, so I don't have to believe that To be in the word of faith.

38:53

I can just say he's out to lunch in that area and that allowed me to stay even though I I believe

38:59

I had an orthodox understanding of the cross at that point Do you see that in your

39:08

Looking at the whole movement that there are people that I Just weigh out to lunch and not everybody in the movement embraces every statement of some of these heretical teachers

39:19

Absolutely, I actually just sat with a friend recently he's a professor now at a seminary out in California out here, but back in the 70s and the 80s.

39:32

He was friends with John Wimber and He's shared with me, you know, I'll respect him and his privacy

39:39

I'm not going to name his name, but he shared with me a conversation that he had because I asked him

39:45

You know, I've read some of John Wimber's material. I've listened to some of his sermons. I've studied him and He walked out of and John you you'll know this because you're again involved like I was a kid at the time

39:56

But he walked away from the Toronto blessing Hey off when

40:02

John Arnot and everyone was at the Toronto Airport Church the Toronto blessing movement with the wild Barking like dogs and that the wild teachings and vineyard pastors

40:12

Left this man was at that time one of the pastors who got up when there was 5 ,000 pastors there

40:17

So in 2 ,000 of them got up and walked out He was a part of that and he was sharing with me that Wimber in the end actually was was saying things like I never meant for it to get this

40:29

Way, I never meant for it to go this far I just wanted to pray for people I mean,

40:34

I have my positions on the gift and the spirits work but I I never thought people would actually think they were going to be apostles and that type of Story helps a lot when you start looking back.

40:45

You're absolutely right Not everybody was full bore bought in all out and I remember sitting with my dad at times growing up and we would watch

40:55

TBN at night and He would say, you know, that guy's crazy or man that guy's false or oh, that's of the flesh

41:01

You know, that's one of the terms we would always use This is crazy. And if my dad got older even he started thinking, you know,

41:08

I don't want to be involved with all the wild stuff So yes, you're right. You can kind of be in the movement, but not even know

41:17

What everybody believes you don't necessarily believe what everybody believes or teaches what they all teach but that's the danger though is there's no checks and balances, there's no accountability and It's a hodgepodge so you don't know what you're gonna get and that's dangerous because she'd need to be led with clarity

41:35

Now how prevalent though? To the ask the reverse question. How prevalent is that?

41:42

nearly Aryan teaching of Christ At least while he was on earth they believed he was merely a born -again man

41:53

I Have heard Kenneth Copeland and others describe

41:59

Christ's death on Calvary in in a most blasphemous and grotesque way that he actually became a demonic entity on Calvary when they they totally and grotesquely twist that he became sin on our behalf and to meaning that he actually became a demon and I have heard that They will even use as a biblical proof

42:25

Moses is Raising up the bronze serpent on a stick As something that pictured that if you could comment on that Kosti.

42:36

Yeah, that Essential is is you're gonna find that in the extreme camps. That's taken way too far and I I never heard my dad teach that from his pulpit

42:49

But again, we followed all of these people like John described you could say, you know

42:55

Copeland's out to lunch on that one But it still doesn't negate that you're teaching everything else.

43:02

They teach and to help as well Bring this into today's terms We talked about Copeland.

43:08

He's 80 now. He's really old Wow, and he's about to go He's on the back end.

43:14

Let's say of his ministry. He'll go at some point here sooner than later But there are others like Bill Johnson and Bethel Church Chris Vallotton Todd White the

43:25

New Apostolic Reformation that crew is Teaching the exact same thing and I've got it committed to memory

43:33

Chris because I deal with a lot of young people at our church and our young adult next -generation pastors are dealing with a lot of Millennials and So it's page 29 of Bill Johnson's book when heaven invades earth.

43:47

I remember it I can see it in my mind He says Jesus did his miracles as a man in right relationship with God and he literally then says not as God there are they're attainable for us and he goes on to express that a

44:02

Christianity or a Christian faith in which we can't actually do miracles and signs and wonders and live identically to Jesus is

44:12

Really boring and doesn't appeal to him But to think that Jesus lived and did all these things as just a man and we can too.

44:20

That's exciting That's an encounter with God. That's revival and he wants that for everyone.

44:27

And so that's why yeah Copeland's old now He's 80 he's out and but there's a whole new wave of people and I get it.

44:35

I'm a millennial too So when I say this, I've got a few pairs of them, but it's just it's just in skinny jeans now

44:41

But it's the same old heresy And so it's just been modernized and music.

44:48

Yeah, Jesus culture and music and all that So it's the new hip way to do it, but it's a stigma of heretical teaching about Jesus's beauty

44:56

Now they also I'm when I say they I'm of course don't mean every single person Involved in that movement, but many word -of -faith

45:06

Pentecostals it seems Believe in a twisting of the Apostles Creed in reference to Jesus descending into hell

45:17

I have heard the theology from word -of -faith teachers that that actually means that Jesus was tortured by demons

45:24

In hell and became the first born -again man in hell.

45:32

Yeah when you're claiming divine revelation and that you have

45:39

Visions and encounters with Jesus and God is telling you things that no one else knows You can take the scriptures and you can twist them as far and as deep as you want

45:51

And that's one of those I I was in services where that was taught Certainly that he you know

45:58

He went down and he took the keys was something that was always said and there were other you know Went down and he was tortured and he became as we were and became dead and was defeated and it just all these things that make zero sense and and they're

46:13

They're derived from a from the Bible and then taken to the nth degree it's like a really bad topical sermon right where a guy leaps off a text and then goes 18 different directions simply because he

46:26

Wanted to and that's why we have to preach the word and preach the text not preach Ourselves and then use the text to accomplish whatever we want to preach.

46:35

And so yeah, what you just described is That exact thing. That's what's happening. So if that helps people understand

46:42

That's exactly what's happening. Yeah, I went to a theatric Yeah, sure. Can I jump in and ask you a question about?

46:50

I'm imagining a word -of -faith guy listening in or gal Saying but Jesus said he who believes in me the works that I do

47:01

Shall he do also and even greater works and these shall he do because I go to my father and I can almost

47:07

Hear their frustration as well. We're just taking Jesus at his word. Why don't you and you know you and I need to Respond to that because I can imagine that being in the mind of some people as they're listening in Jesus in John 14 said that What what's the problem?

47:25

I love that question my mom and Maybe she'll listen to this. Eventually. I love you mom.

47:31

She knows we have a great relationship. We talk a lot She calls herself a berean because she's always asking me questions

47:37

And a quick praise on that is just a month ago She said hey any thoughts on Sarah Young and Jesus calling and I said mom you got to be careful

47:47

So I explained it to her and she says alright, I'm getting rid of those books I want to be like a berean and one of the things she asked me when she said

47:53

I'm trying to do better I'm trying to learn I'm listening to your interviews. I'm I'm intrigued but Kosti what about when he said greater works

48:01

Will you do that? I mean, what about the greater works? And so yeah, John you're asking exactly what I think everybody asks

48:08

And I would say two things. So the first one Which I think people will say well, there's a lot he said to the disciples and to us by extension

48:16

But first contextually he's talking to his disciples When you've got John 14 and then you jump over to John 16

48:24

You're dealing with two chapters that mention the Holy Spirit is coming. Jesus is going to go

48:29

All of that contextually needs to be mentioned and understood Jesus isn't making bold claims and saying hey, but over in 2017

48:38

They're gonna do X and Y and Z but the real kicker here is greater works

48:44

Will you do than I or greater works? Will you do? Can you raise a better dead person than Jesus?

48:52

Can you raise a more dead person than Jesus? A worse case of what you can't it's literally impossible to do greater works

49:01

But what are greater works? How long did Jesus do ministry for three years? What was the geographical location that Jesus did ministry in how many square miles and I've been to the

49:13

Holy Land six or seven times He was primarily in Galilee. He certainly went over to Jerusalem, but that's not a very big area

49:20

But what did he tell the disciple? What's Acts 1 6 you will be my witnesses and then what does he say to?

49:27

Jerusalem Judea Samaria and even to the ends of the earth So greater works is not greater in that we're gonna all do some wonders

49:35

Greater works is that you're gonna have ministries that are decades long you're gonna save more people reach more people go to farther places and Yeah, is

49:46

God going to do remarkably amazing things through you? Absolutely, but Jesus wasn't talking about signs and wonders he was talking about the works that would be the result of Gospel ministry as people did ministry longer and greater distances than he ever did

50:04

It's really logical, but when we over spiritualize everything We make it again about signs and wonders and it's not

50:18

And what we were saying before about Jesus being tortured in hell and becoming the first born -again man in hell according to Those in the word of faith movement or some in the word of faith movement.

50:32

I was at a theatrical performance at a major Christian theater that does

50:39

Broadway level Productions and I saw their

50:45

Easter edition of this this theater And this theory group

50:51

I should say and they had Jesus after his death being theatrically

51:00

Displayed as being tied to a chair Blindfolded as demons danced around his chair smacking him and poking him and so on the

51:11

The other aspect that seems to be an element of their heresy

51:17

Seems to be very close to a Mormon heresy where one of the greatest Heresies that Mormons see in Reform theology according to our confessions the thing that they would declare

51:31

Mormons would declare as heresy In the Westminster Confession in the 1689 confession is the fact that those declarations are those confessions state that God in reference to the

51:42

Father is spirit and the Mormons insist that God the Father is a

51:48

Has flesh and blood and bone and it seems that some of the word of faith I clearly heard

51:53

Kenneth Copeland describing God the Father as being just about his height and weight was interesting how close in Description God the

52:01

Father was to Kenneth Copeland, but if you could explain that a little bit Absolutely Well, Jesus himself refers to Father God has spirit and talks about worshiping in spirit and truth

52:17

We know that God is a spirit. We know that Jesus is now at seated at the right hand of the

52:23

Father and We know that the Holy Spirit is a spirit. So I don't

52:29

I mean Goodness Chris, I those kind of questions. I didn't make me shake my head like you

52:35

Because my brain is going 18 different directions. One of them being oral Roberts Back in his day when he was talking about God appearing to him said that you know

52:46

It was like a 90 -foot Jesus. That's right him and then you got Copeland saying the hint so I would go again back to Logical reason because there's no foundation in the

52:57

Bible for it It's like a lot of the things they say there's no foundation that would be for saying that God is this that the other now

53:05

There are anthropomorphisms, which we know when you know Like if we were to say God holds the world in his hands

53:11

Or he will uphold you with his right hand or we will cover you you're under the shadow of his wings

53:17

Let's say and you see a lot of the chaos today with the feathers and all that stuff They're saying well, he said he would cover you with his feathers.

53:24

It's one of the things Bill Johnson says These are ways that a holy Infinite God that is behind beyond man's comprehension relates to puny limited finite humans

53:37

He sent his son to become a man literally still God But a man to relate to us because we are sinful depraved wretched chaotic.

53:46

We're all over the map We needed God to send us that we needed a sacrifice because we can't save ourselves in the same way

53:54

God in his grace has chosen to make scripture available and make it clear and Put it in such a way that we can understand him that's why when books like the shack turned

54:07

God the Father into a gregarious and loving African -american woman to try to make a point they're doing a great injustice because now you're taking a holy

54:17

God who is spirit who can't be limited who can't be boxed in and you're trying to do too much to explain him

54:25

What Copeland has done what Roberts has done what others have done to try to bring

54:30

God down to a human level It's confusing. That's that best but we know that God is

54:38

Spirit and that is clear. Yes. I understand that even though Jimmy Swaggart was

54:43

Apparently and perhaps is still apparently opposed to the word of faith movement in spite of his own

54:50

Aberrancies and heresies he believed that God the Father has a human body as well or a physical body

54:59

Yeah, and my uncle at one point now he repented and recanted of this but then he there were other things

55:05

He taught that were just as out there. But you remember he got into a little hot water back in the 90s when He said that the

55:12

Trinity was nine persons and that's because a very popular Teaching in in our circle growing up is that we are all made up of spirit soul and body

55:22

So you have a I think it's From systematic theology that that's a trichotomy, right?

55:28

It's not the dichotomy so that approach Spirit soul and body and then so if we are and we are as he is and all the things that they take right to The nth degree then

55:39

God also is spirit soul and body like you've described Well, if you times that by three now all three of the members of the

55:46

Trinity are spirit soul body Then there's nine of them and that's what got uncle Benny into a little hot water

55:52

But yeah to allude to to I guess give you an illustration to what you're saying That's how far things go if we don't just go to John for not a spirit

56:03

His worshipers must worship him in spirit and truth And look at the

56:08

Bible take the whole counsel of God and understand God for who he is Not who we want him to be then you stay away from a lot of that chaos

56:17

Yeah, I want to touch on that when we return from our midway break if anybody would like to join us as well

56:23

We still have people waiting to have their questions asked and answered But if you want to get in line, our email address is

56:29

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com Chris Arnzen at gmail .com Chris Arnzen at gmail .com

56:36

We look forward to hearing from you and your questions for Kosti Hinn right after these messages from our sponsors so do not go away

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I would like to introduce you to my good friends Todd and Patty Jennings at CVB BS Which stands for Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service?

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01:03:04

Welcome back. This is Chris Sarnes And if you just tuned us in our guest today for the full two hours with a little less than an hour to go

01:03:10

Is Kosti Hinn nephew of renowned word -of -faith healer or leader

01:03:16

Benny Hinn? Kosti is an associate pastor of adult ministries at Mission Bible Church of Tustin, California We are addressing the theme from word -of -faith heresy to sovereign grace truth the testimony of an apple that did fall very far away from the tree and co -hosting with me today is pastor

01:03:36

John Sampson of Kings Church in Peoria, Arizona a former word -of -faith teacher himself and talk show host and In studio with me is my normal co -host.

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I wouldn't say he's normal, but he's my my usual or typical co -host Reverend Buzz Taylor Before we return to our discussion.

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I just have some important announcements to make some of our Sponsors are having special events that you should be aware of the word of truth

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Church That's the word of truth Church, not the word of faith Church the word of truth Church in Farmingville Long Island in cooperation with the

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Friday September 28th and Saturday September 29th If you would like to attend this celebration and conference go to Word of Truth Church's website, which is

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Six three one eight zero six zero six one four the very following day Sunday October 1st

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Dr. Tony Costa of Toronto Baptist Seminary is also going to be speaking at Hope Reformed Baptist Church of Medford, Long Island, New York And if you want more

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Information about that 11 a .m. Worship service featuring. Dr. Tony Costa The address the website

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I should say is Hope Reformed LI .net Hope Reformed LI for Long Island net if you'd like to call

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Hope Reformed Baptist Church Their phone number is 6 3 1 6 9 6 5 7 1 1 6 3 1 6 9 6 5 7 1 1 and then in November The Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals is having their annual

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November 17th through the 18th If you'd like to register go to Alliance net org

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The g3 conference returns to Atlanta, Georgia and the theme is knowing God a biblical understanding of discipleship the 17th of January will be exclusively a

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Spanish -speaking edition of the conference and the 18th through the 20th will be Exclusively an

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English -speaking edition of the conference. The speakers include Stephen Lawson Votie Balcom The Phil Johnson of grace to you ministries

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01:10:53

Well now we are back to our discussion with Kosti Hinn And as I said earlier, he is the nephew of renowned word -of -faith leader

01:11:02

Benny Hinn who came to abandon by God's mercy that heresy that word -of -faith heresy and has a

01:11:09

Embraced the doctrines of sovereign grace known as reform theology and we are talking about his testimony today

01:11:16

If you have a question of your own Send it to us at Chris Arnzen at gmail .com

01:11:21

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com and always give your first name city and state and country of Residence unless you are remaining anonymous because the question involves a personal and private matter

01:11:31

Before we go to any of our listener questions Kosti Right before the break we you were discussing that bizarre heresy of there being nine persons in the

01:11:42

Trinity that your Uncle Benny had been notoriously known for saying at least once at a meeting because the

01:11:53

Bible Answer Man Was known to play that clip Hank Hanegraaff was known to play that clip quite often and of course

01:12:03

Hank Hanegraaff has his own theological problems now having Entered into what

01:12:08

I would call apostasy becoming an Eastern Orthodox Member but If you could

01:12:17

Kosti Responds to the claim that I have heard subsequent to Hank Hanegraaff exposing

01:12:24

Benny Hinn for that statement Where Benny to defend himself said he was joking now.

01:12:30

What about that? Did he say that he was joking and what do you know about that? whether he was or whether obviously from what you were saying earlier, he was not joking this had to do with a

01:12:40

Teaching that was known amongst word -of -faith Pentecostals Yeah, there's a great book by Really really godly men

01:12:52

Their last names. I'm actually got it on myself already. It's Fisher and go to man go domain

01:12:58

Richard Fisher and Kurt Gadelman the confusing world of Benny Hinn and They did an amazing job putting this together

01:13:08

Years back. They released an updated edition as well and it outlines every single

01:13:15

Portion of that Sermon what he said what he said about other things as well men like dr

01:13:22

Norman Geisler have endorsed it Jay Adams and on and on but basically Justin Peters did the same thing afterwards my uncle

01:13:30

Rick can't did he said oh, I was just joking I was just trying to shock people and I wasn't that serious and That exactly is what it is

01:13:40

You know when you say something publicly and you go for the shock and awe factor you have two choices you can try to twist the

01:13:50

Bible some more and stick with it because of pride and of embarrassment or You can recant

01:14:01

Kosti I don't know what you I don't know what you changed, but you're muffled now. Your voice is muffled Oh, can you hear me?

01:14:08

Okay now I can yeah better. Yes much better. Oh Sorry about that So yeah things like that are pretty normal.

01:14:16

They were pretty normal in our circle We dabbled right in both prosperity gospel and word of faith theology.

01:14:22

So when you said something you did something that was a no -go You had two choices one you twist the

01:14:28

Bible more and stick with it or two you pull back and recant and with that one You know uncle

01:14:33

Benny just recanted it, but he went on to continue to Preach and teach falsely.

01:14:39

It's like after one of the documentaries. He said I'm you know, you're right I need to just preach the gospel.

01:14:44

I need to keep it simple. I you know I'm finally glad somebody's asking me these questions remember

01:14:50

NBC Dateline did one the Fifth Estate CBC Uncle Benny has made a career of saying, you know,

01:14:58

I'm gonna back you're right I need to preach different and then going right back to What he's done and in our circle again,

01:15:07

I can't speak for everyone I can only speak for What I grew up in and what I experienced and what

01:15:12

I benefited from and even taught and lived out is we Like did

01:15:18

Lord, obviously. I'm a true believer now and sanctification These things aren't aren't encumbrances anymore by God's grace, but greed was our thing

01:15:28

Money was our thing. So we protect the mighty dollar and so what uncle Benny?

01:15:34

Did is he got in some hot water? It's the same thing with when him and auntie Suzanne went through their marriage thing, you know donations go down And so you need to you need to do things and teach things and I don't want to go too far down that road

01:15:46

Because that's pontificating and it's actually just character assault if I go much further I want to stick to the theology, but I am telling people the inner workings of this stuff is simple money power and of course

01:15:59

Satan is using all of it to outwork his plan for darkness and his

01:16:05

Kingdom as he is the prince of the power of the air And so that's just what people are seeing in all of it.

01:16:11

It is exactly what it looks like That makes sense Yeah So you you really believe then he was your uncle was being dishonest when he said it was he was joking that he was really

01:16:22

Intending that to be a serious theological declaration Oh, yeah I think he got caught going for shock factor trying to bring something new and then had to pull back and say he was joking

01:16:34

But yeah now now he is joking right because it all went south. Yeah Yeah, well

01:16:40

I'd like you to now give us the details as in a summary form obviously about how you

01:16:48

How and when you started to say to yourself this this isn't really from God This is not biblical when your conscience started bothering you

01:16:56

Perhaps God providentially brought teachers into your life who were biblically sound How did this all come about when you began to question something that your family was so entrenched in?

01:17:09

Yeah When I was in my teenage years I had lots of questions because we didn't and we couldn't heal everybody and I had a friend who had cancer

01:17:17

Her name was Stephanie in my high school and I asked my family. Hey, can we go healer? Can we pray for her and We didn't it was you know we prayed for her from home, but we didn't go and wield the gift and we needed services and music and atmosphere and Offerings and everyone will have to sow a seed of faith to get whatever the thing was whether that was healing or breakthrough

01:17:39

You know, that's another popular word And so that was a red flag that I remember clearly another one was just Prophecies that didn't come true.

01:17:49

We would say stuff and prophesy stuff and it didn't happen So I thought well if you were getting a message from God Unless there was some static.

01:17:58

How did you not get that? Right? I mean, come on. I was a teenager, right? So things are very simple black and white.

01:18:05

It is what it is. Either we can or we can't But again, I was a teenager.

01:18:11

So I had my own dreams my own goals. I put that stuff aside and So I'll break this down real quick in summary as the coach the girl and the pastor

01:18:22

My coach in college. I played baseball at Dallas Baptist University Used to talk about the sovereignty of God.

01:18:28

He was a Baptist and still is a wonderful wonderful, man And he used to drop

01:18:34

Proverbs 21 on us and say, you know guys the heart of the king It's like water in the chance like water in the channels of the head of the

01:18:41

Lord I mean he turns it wherever he wishes God is sovereign. He controls Kings. He can do whatever he wants

01:18:48

Scouts and so it's like don't worry God's sovereign just play baseball have fun and he'll take care of the rest

01:18:54

It would confuse me I'd think how in the world Do I get on the good side of sovereignty if I want to get drafted and play baseball in the big leagues and all that stuff

01:19:02

So he would drop seeds in our life like that and he got us memorizing Bible verses and he modeled genuine faith

01:19:08

I never will forget it. He's got all sons And he lived what he preached he preached what he lived he was a baseball coach, but I think he was a lot more of a pastor and a disciple making man than he ever was just a baseball coach and he's still coaching at Dallas Baptist to this day and then

01:19:26

I leave there and I meet a girl. So after the coach it was the girl and After the seed of sovereignty was planted in my life by coach

01:19:34

Hefner my wife well, she's my girlfriend at the time comes along and She she was part of the seed of doubt if you will this this planting of a seed of the true gospel of questions about the true gospel and doubt started to To erupt in my heart.

01:19:52

My family said she wasn't spirit -filled because she didn't speak in tongues. So naturally I Wanted to know more about tongues and my family said that she didn't really

01:20:03

Fit in a mold of what they thought I should marry because she wasn't baptized by the Holy Spirit and so I started kind of remembering my

01:20:10

Baptist education at DBU and thinking I'm pretty sure there's no second baptism or second work of grace and One day she comes to me.

01:20:20

I'll spare you all the details. You can imagine the madness. I want to marry this gal she loves the Lord and she's a wonderful beautiful woman who is

01:20:29

In the word and wants to grow and wants to learn and be a part of our family and we want to join our lives together and she comes one day and shows me first Corinthians 12 there at the end right around verse 30 and Paul's doing all the you know, not all do they do they write not all speak in tongues do they not all have gifts of healing do they not all gifts of interpretation and miracles and She looks at me with the sweetest little eyes and you know, she says

01:20:56

I think I'm off the hook Or Thing she was we laid hands on her guys.

01:21:04

We had she fell I think I've told us on some of the other interviews She tipped over in her little heels and she fell under the anointing or the power or whatever that would be

01:21:12

She did everything she thought she had to do to get spirit -filled She went to one of my uncle's services a

01:21:17

Good Friday service That year and we went to a youth conference where I was speaking and then the woman pastor there

01:21:25

In quotes got the microphone and because I guess I didn't do it in those days

01:21:30

I was starting to kind of get a little bit weirded out by this stuff So I wouldn't fill all the kids with the spirit at the end of the conference

01:21:36

I just prayed and said Oh Lord use them all for your glory and kind of like please let this thing end and It's so the woman pastor grabs a mic and goes you're all gonna get filled with the spirit and speak in tongues

01:21:46

And I put my head down like oh, no Maybe Christine will get this thing finally and then

01:21:53

I can marry her, you know, let's get on with it so She tries and I'll never forget it.

01:22:02

I'm about six to my wife is five two. So I'm standing there a foot taller I'm looking down at her.

01:22:07

I'll never forget it She put her little hands in the air and she's babbling her little mouth away and she's trying so hard and Man you guys it just didn't it just didn't work because it's a it's a gift and let's leave the cessation thing out just for The sake of our listeners and people that you know, let's say we just we're all sitting in a room going

01:22:27

What does the Bible say? Well, the Bible is really clear any gift of the Holy Spirit is given by the

01:22:33

Spirit and there's no such thing as babbling to Get it lifting your hands to get it going to a service to get it.

01:22:39

The Holy Spirit gives it So someone really had tongues first of all Glossa everywhere It's used in the Bible is then give me a known language a tongue and so it's not gonna be babble and then

01:22:49

Second you ain't gonna get it at an altar by raising your hands and doing anything

01:22:54

It's the Spirit of God working doing giving as he wills and works and so That all begins to come out longer story made shorter

01:23:06

My pastor now Anthony I call him Tony a pastor Tony. He he really believes he says look

01:23:13

I know you you started Understanding things more when you came here, but what I saw in you you were converted

01:23:18

You were you were leaving everything behind you wanted to grow and he hired me as a youth pastor over here in,

01:23:24

California I got married to Christine was announced as the new part -time youth pastor and he began to disciple me and so we had nothing to lose we packed up our cars from Canada and You know, he's right as my pastor even now as a brother

01:23:38

He says no one packs up their cars and moves from Canada to come to a church in, California Unless God is leading them and they are now spirit filled that a believer and their sheep

01:23:49

Going to where God is leading them. And so we were just doing what we were doing it's all

01:23:54

Providence and he gives me a sermon to preach shortly after I arrived to John 5 and The healing at the pool of Bethesda.

01:24:02

He puts a John MacArthur commentary on my desk He says this might help keep the train on the tracks my friend and You know a young word of faith kid prosperity gospel kids are gonna preach

01:24:13

So the commentary helped a lot But I get through that text and I'll wrap this up right now and just kind of give you what happened

01:24:21

Obviously Jesus healed one out of a multitude one Not everybody sometimes he did heal all but in this case he healed one and I thought wow

01:24:32

We always say that Jesus always heals all if people just have enough faith That's right give money and we get the services in the atmosphere in the music

01:24:41

Jesus healed one guy. That's right. Of course The man didn't even perceive who

01:24:46

Jesus was he didn't even know who he was So how did he have enough faith if he didn't even know who he was at first?

01:24:52

and then that Shattered a belief system which John Simpson you're listening, you know, you and I both know that is the core of a lot of teaching in the word of faith movement is if you just have enough faith

01:25:06

God will and Like dominoes my theology fell apart and my pastor walked with me for years

01:25:14

This is now five six years ago in that range. And so I entered seminary.

01:25:20

He gave me books books and more books and By God's grace here.

01:25:26

I am today. I get to be a pastor I get to be in the fight with you men who are faithful because people evangelized and discipled me and of course

01:25:34

God saved me amen Interestingly I years ago heard a

01:25:40

Calvinist landmark Baptist used that same biblical illustration to teach unconditional election

01:25:48

Because out of the midst of all those people there was a man out of all of them that Christ chose to heal

01:25:56

But I want to address a couple of things that you brought up there In your your testimony

01:26:03

One is the failed prophecies. How does how does your family and others in?

01:26:11

Your uncle's church or the church where he pastors and those that support him how do they keep turning a deaf ear and a blind eye to All of these unfulfilled prophecies

01:26:23

I can remember hearing him prophesy I don't know how long ago it was, but it might have been the 90s where homosexuals were going to be spontaneously bursting into flame or something like that and I can remember him on a platform in Africa Saying that Christ was going to return to that very platform at some point

01:26:45

To declare his second coming now when I heard him say that I immediately thought wouldn't that be his second coming?

01:26:52

Appeared on the platform, but how do they respond to these and perhaps you can cite any other

01:26:59

Failed prophecies that people just seem to forget everybody has amnesia. It seems who loves Benny him

01:27:05

Yeah, it was in 94 95 the Prophecy that the homosexual community is going to be burned by fire by God and then also that Fidel Castro would would die that year and then the other one you're referring to is in a

01:27:19

Crusade leading up to a crusade in Kenya He said that Jesus was going to physically appear in the service

01:27:26

And of course, that's a great marketing ploy right to have hundreds of thousands of Kenyans come to a stadium

01:27:32

And be taken to the cleaners and so There's there's three ways and I'm verbally processing this with you

01:27:38

So we'll kind of walk through and you guys fire questions back if I leave anything out but number one they can say that God changed his mind because They boil

01:27:49

God down in very very human ways. So his immutability is just like his sovereignty is just like everything else

01:27:57

You can change it you can play with his attributes and so his immutability

01:28:02

Well, he can change his mind He he chose not to or because people didn't have faith and believe for that or because people criticized me

01:28:12

God is going to do something else now because of unbelief or I asked him for mercy and he chose to have mercy

01:28:19

So one you can change what God said To there's a big camp of people that say well

01:28:28

Prophecies still going but because we're fallible men. Our prophecy is fallible.

01:28:33

So we don't always get it, right? and That would be

01:28:39

Arguable at best. I still don't understand and then the other way which is just to dismiss it all is you know,

01:28:46

Chris Guys touch not the Lord's anointed Yeah, if God spoke and he did and he changed his mind you better be very very careful

01:28:53

Kosti touch not the Lord's anointed God can do whatever he wants So you know you're appealing to sovereignty to get you off the hook and I'm not

01:29:02

God. I'm just a messenger So if God changes he changes and the touch not the Lord's anointed thing is very interesting because if you're gonna appeal to an

01:29:11

Old Testament Command regarding Monarchial kings in the line of Israel in regard to not messing around with Prophets which obviously was do my prophets no harm as well

01:29:23

Then you're dealing with some really interesting hermeneutics because ultimately you can't kill or physically hurt

01:29:30

The anointed of God, okay fine Or if he's a king you can't do that either

01:29:36

David understood that but if you're gonna call uncle Benny or anyone else a prophet And tie that in to touch not the

01:29:42

Lord's anointed do my prophets no harm Then you've got to go over to the book of Deuteronomy and you guys probably know where I'm going with this and you've got to Hold the prophet to the standard of biblical prophecy now

01:29:55

That prophet must die. That's right prophesied falsely. So this whole thing is

01:30:02

Divorced from the Bible What do we get? Confusion and chaos and we get destructive heresies that are meant to deceive people and it hurts people and if we go back to the text the

01:30:15

Bible is really clear, but of course, we know Satan's been doing this for a long time and But that's how you get out of prophecy.

01:30:23

I hope I'm not helping anybody figure out how to do That's how you get away with it and and you will meet your maker one day and you will give an account so Dangerous ground to be playing around.

01:30:38

Well, we're going to our final break right now when we return I will ask you one more question about Some of what you said in your testimony and I'll have

01:30:46

John Sampson ask a question and then after we get John Sampson's question We'll get immediately to our listener questions because people have been waiting quite a long time and we thank you for your patience.

01:30:57

Don't go away We'll be right back with Kosti Hinn right after these messages. Hi I'm pastor Bill Shishko inviting you to tune in to a visit to the pastor's study every

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01:33:55

John Sampson pastor of Kings Church in Peoria, Arizona and We are interviewing

01:34:01

Kosti Hinn for those of you who just tuned in and he will be on for the next 25 minutes he's giving his testimony of his conversion or deliverance or His departure from the heresies of the word of faith movement

01:34:14

That his uncle Benny is very well known notoriously as being a leader amongst that group and and his

01:34:25

Embracing his discovery and embracing of sovereign grace or Calvinistic or reformed theology

01:34:32

Where he now serves as a pastor of a church committed to the doctrines of sovereign grace and A congregation that is even a cessationist congregation that no longer believes the sign gifts are applicable to the church today

01:34:48

In fact, that is one of the questions that I had for you before I let John Sampson ask a question of his own

01:34:54

Kosti You were talking about how your wife was faking the tongues and one of the things that I speak to my charismatic friends about and those

01:35:04

Even some of my reformed friends who are not cessationists. They're continuationists or continuous.

01:35:10

However, you want to phrase it They will be convinced That tongues is a real phenomenon for the modern church because they've experienced it

01:35:21

And then I know others who when they became Believers in the doctrines of grace they abandon the sign gifts and they become

01:35:31

Cessationist now you have become a cessationist. What did you think was going on in your life when you were speaking in tongues?

01:35:38

and I'm assuming that you were and What do you what do you think is going on? And I mean some of this is guesswork

01:35:44

But in the lives of many sincere People who are actually genuinely born again

01:35:51

Who are doing that who are speaking in unknown tongues quote -quote who are basically?

01:35:58

Babbling with noises that are not a part of an actual established human language

01:36:06

Great question. I was one of those who spoke unknowingly

01:36:12

That I just was trying to do my best to speak in tongues. That's what I thought

01:36:17

I had to do and so I Wouldn't use it and this is all I can say is what

01:36:23

I experienced was I would I would pray in tongues in the shower Pray in tongues in my car

01:36:28

I would pray in tongues when I felt and I use that in quotes like I was being attacked by the enemy and I was taught that if you pray in the spirit, it's a more powerful way to pray

01:36:40

So I would repeat the same phrase literally I could still do it for you Chris I won't make it uncomfortable, but I could still repeat it.

01:36:48

I know what I used to say I know I can tell you my dad's my mom's I can tell you how my uncle starts all his it's the same babbled phrase

01:36:55

First of all, you could do it if you want to by the way Yeah, sure go ahead

01:37:03

Okay, I would say she climbed a buck a so -called a buck a show over and over and over I could do that in my

01:37:09

Sleep I could do it tomorrow. I'm not faking that I can tell you in ten years I'll repeat the same phrase. My uncle's always starts with mal kappa and he goes on we all have heard him on TV Do it.

01:37:20

It's the same repeated phrase and The argument is that that is a spiritual or heavenly language

01:37:29

And so you would I would just do it innocently I just thought and I wouldn't intermingle it with prayer and say no

01:37:36

Lord. I trust you. Please help me I'm under attack and I would go off on the phrase and it honestly for me was an innocent thing

01:37:43

I was trying to do now. I've heard of other people That have told me stories and they said when

01:37:49

I used to speak in tongues I would go into this trance like state and I would feel a very weird feeling and I would speak things

01:37:57

I didn't even know that I was speaking and my husband would hear me in the closet and I would sound

01:38:03

Possessed or whatever. The husband described it as that. I didn't say that and And people have really dark and weird demonic experiences.

01:38:11

I've heard of those stories as well then other people who Claim that they said it and someone else heard it and this that and the other there's all the stories that you can imagine but What we need to do and you're catching a theme here and you live this

01:38:25

I live this as well as go back to the text In the Bible, there is no instance of private prayer language.

01:38:32

There's no instance of babbling We aren't told to speak in a special language to thwart the devil

01:38:39

We're told by Paul in Ephesians 6 to put on the whole armor of God and to do what? stand firm and resist not rebuke him not yell at him not babble at him and So my wife was trying to do something that many people try to do

01:38:55

A lady in our church growing up would stand behind me and never forget it. I won't name her name Maybe she saved her.

01:39:01

She's reformed now Praise God if she is but she would just sit behind me and say that that that that that that that that that that that the whole time with her hands in the air because my dad said

01:39:12

God's gonna touch people today and we're about to pray for the sick. You pray in the spirit

01:39:17

Church You pray in the spirit lift up your voices and pray in the Holy Ghost and everyone babbles That is nothing like we see in 1st

01:39:25

Corinthians 12. It's nothing like we see It's actually the opposite of what Paul describes the church should be doing in 1st

01:39:32

Corinthians 14 and we're talking about the gift of and then lastly None of this looks like Pentecost none of it

01:39:40

And so there was corrections that Paul made which were things like, you know Your tongues that those tongues weren't prophetic as they were supposed to be

01:39:49

Speaking forth the Word of God. They weren't precise. There was not a lot of accuracy They weren't peaceful remember there was everything was chaos

01:39:58

I like alliteration because I'm a pastor so three Ps to remember They weren't prophetic like they were supposed to be 1st

01:40:04

Corinthians 14 1 Your tongues aren't precise Paul is saying so you're kind of all over flutes and harps and things like instruments make distinct sounds but you guys you don't even make sense and then certainly they're not peaceful it

01:40:20

Paul said two or at the most three and Obviously the church was being chaotic with no interpretation.

01:40:26

There's nothing peaceful about that. And so Again, I go back to the text of what the

01:40:31

Bible says. I'm not arguing for cessation here I'm just simply saying I was doing my best many

01:40:38

Christians are and we just need to go back to the Bible and see what was actually happening and it's normally not going to be

01:40:46

Comparable to what we're seeing in the church today. Hmm. I could recall years ago and I'm almost certain it was the 700

01:40:52

Club but that there was a individual who said that he after Ozzy Osbourne Left Black Sabbath that he was temporarily a fill -in and toured with Black Sabbath and he performed in a theatrical performance either in Jesus Christ Superstar or Godspell, but he was on the cross on the stage.

01:41:16

He was the role of Jesus Christ He's performing the role of Jesus Christ and he said and I don't know if this is you know a true or false story

01:41:24

But he said that he became Overwhelmed with a demonic spirit and began speaking in demonic tongues

01:41:31

This individual had some kind of connection with the more extreme Pentecostal groups.

01:41:37

Are you familiar with whom I'm talking about? I Am and I'm familiar with with those kind of stories.

01:41:44

Yeah, so you think it's just a phony story No, I think that there is an element to those type of things that can very very well be demonic if If we say that Satan isn't at work today, then

01:42:00

I think we're we're ignorant as Christians we need to be aware of the adversary and his minions and Think about it.

01:42:07

I if it doesn't match the Bible if it doesn't match the true work of the

01:42:12

Spirit and Paul warned about other Gospels and Satan's workers are disguised as workers of righteousness

01:42:21

And there are false signs and false wonders and there is all this going on and there's a spiritual battle going on and To it the greatest battleground is the mind for a

01:42:32

Christian and a lot of the times with tongues They're telling you to disengage your mind And we're to have the mind of Christ and believers not not a emptied kind of chaotic mind

01:42:42

But just open to whatever to fill it then. I don't doubt at all that people will have

01:42:49

Demonic experiences. I am NOT saying that everyone is I'm not even saying that it's normative and I can't even comment accurately on what that man experienced

01:42:58

But I can tell you that if it's not matching divine revelation from God himself

01:43:04

Then what is it? It's not of God So it's of the God of this world and we even have examples of Mormons and people of other religions

01:43:14

Speaking in tongues, so that is not some kind of a verification of something that's truly from God and John Sampson if you could ask a brief question because we do have a line of Listeners that are waiting to have their questions asked and answered.

01:43:28

So John, what would you like to ask? I Would like to ask on the personal level, you know,

01:43:35

I've got Very different background, but I had an uncle who was a driver for Smith Wigglesworth it's a it's very much my heritage, you know what we're talking about what we're walking away from and From their perspective.

01:43:53

They think you and I have lost the plot spiritually, we've lost the anointing and you and I have lost friends and There's this strange family relationships because of it

01:44:04

And I kind of wanted to ask you as much as you and I can assess our own hearts.

01:44:10

What's the motivation? For coming on a show like this and talking because for some they they think it can't be godly.

01:44:19

You must be Motivated by a wrong spirit inside and in the sense of talking about these things, but from from my perspective, it's to talk about the the wonder of being rescued by God and to point people to the truth and to the

01:44:36

Vastness and bigness of the deception I was in What what as much as you can

01:44:42

Analyze your own heart. How would you talk about your motivation and now speaking up on this subject?

01:44:49

Yeah, John, I want to see people get saved. I'm with you. I'm with Chris when when

01:44:55

Chris prayed before the show I and I said, thank you for him to put for him praying that way

01:45:02

People don't know this because they didn't hear it But he was literally praying that we don't get caught in the minutiae and we've got just viewing our words

01:45:11

But we actually that God would use us to save people I want people saved.

01:45:16

I I'm not saying every charismatic and Pentecostal is a heretic or they're hell -bound

01:45:21

I just want those who are really lost to come back to some semblance of Orthodox faith.

01:45:27

Just believe in the right Jesus You know, I I've even told my own family members through tears

01:45:33

Be charismatic fine. Be open but cautious. I'll be a Calvinist We'll all still have

01:45:38

Thanksgiving together and and differ, but please believe in the right Jesus preach the right

01:45:43

Jesus Not the one that was just a man The one who was God and will always be and is coming back to recompense every man according to his deeds

01:45:52

I just can we believe in the in the same Jesus is what I begged them to And to come to and obviously

01:45:59

I know that God is sovereign and saving in an election But you know Spurgeon talked a lot about that with evangelism

01:46:05

I'll sooner stop evangelizing and all soon all sooner stop coming on programs like this Telling the details answering questions and begging that people be saved and actually think critically about the

01:46:17

Bible as soon as God Puts an E on every person who is the elect. I'll stop but that's not gonna happen

01:46:24

We don't know who they are. Our job is to evangelize and so I'm I'm with you guys.

01:46:29

I want the lost people saved I I contend for the faith like you talked about because I'm commanded to but I'd much rather be with Christians and like -minded people talking about good news and good stuff, but We have to fight the good fight and contend for the faith.

01:46:48

So yeah, I I want people saved. I want my uncle saved I'm getting emails from family members even who have been saved now

01:46:55

Amen, and are getting saved and are questioning their own beliefs. So No way,

01:47:01

I won't stop just because there's people who think we're ill -willed While there is a whole camp of people that do this for fun

01:47:09

And they like the sound of their own voice and they take it too far I don't ever want to be a party to that.

01:47:16

This is about the gospel and truth. Amen And just to verify what you said,

01:47:21

I have a dear friend who is now with eternity Who are now in eternity with Christ who was killed in a tragic automobile accident?

01:47:29

But Al Stein a precious brother who was very frequently a guest on my old

01:47:36

Radio show my old iron sharpens iron radio show broadcasting out of New York Al Stein Was not only a pastor in an assemblies of God congregation the neighborhood assembly of God of Belmore, New York but he was also a bishop and a district overseer and when

01:47:55

I met Al he was an Arminian and and Before at least a couple of years before he went home to the be with the

01:48:02

Lord He was a full -blown five -point Calvinist and he was still an assemblies of God pastor bishop and overseer and I have other friends who are charismatic and Pentecostal who are a doctrinally sound

01:48:16

Soteriologically in spite of anything else that I disagree with them on but we're gonna go to our listeners now

01:48:22

We have a first -time listener and if I could have a drumroll, please we have a first -time listener from Alaska At least on the new the current edition of iron sharpens iron radio.

01:48:35

We used to get Phone calls from Alaska on the old show when we did call -ins

01:48:41

But we have Don in Valdez, Alaska He says how do family get -togethers go and what is the best way to talk with family members?

01:48:51

Who are caught up in this kind of teaching? Don I want to come up and fish for salmon in Alaska with you one day

01:49:00

Keep me in your in your thoughts. I'm a Canadian I love to fish so great

01:49:05

Alaska family gatherings are from Interesting.

01:49:12

I go with Jude's words. I turn to the passage. So I'll read it Jude says keep yourselves in the love of God waiting anxiously for the mercy of our

01:49:20

Lord Jesus Christ to eternal life and have mercy on Some who are doubting save others snatching them out of the fire and on some have mercy with fear

01:49:30

Hating even the garment polluted by the flesh. I see some categories there by Jude saying

01:49:37

You know, some people are just doubting so in my family members I'm really gentle with those who are just they're a confused group or they are they're just doubting and they're kind of it's okay

01:49:47

I have mercy on them. I love them. I get together with them. I take it easy I don't bring a doctrinal treatise to every family gathering

01:49:55

Then save others snatching them out of the fire there's others that I'm a little bit more aggressive with and abrupt with maybe a sister or a cousin who's involved with Bethel and becoming a prophetess or hanging out with People that are clearly a cult or clearly a false teacher.

01:50:15

I begged them to come out I begged them to and I'm a more aggressive with them.

01:50:20

I I call them I text them I send the material and say please consider this I love you. We don't have to agree on everything, but please not that and then others

01:50:28

I stay away from completely Hating even the garment polluted by the flesh. I have mercy on them with fear my uncle

01:50:35

Benny fits Not necessarily even in that category. He fits in other categories where false teachers, you know, even

01:50:42

I'm not even around I'm not even talking to him But there are apostates in my family at certain gatherings that I keep a very close

01:50:51

An eye on and I keep a good distance from Because they have a grave influence on a lot of other people and Jude is talking about apostasy so we're talking about Christians or false

01:51:05

Christians dealing with each other and So that's kind of how I go about it. But yeah family functions are few and far between and I to be honest haven't been to one or a part of one since my grandmother's funeral in May of Last year of 2016 and I I was in the same room as my uncle

01:51:27

Benny. So sorry to everybody who thinks I shouldn't have gone I went and grieved my grandmother, but I did not rub elbows with uncle

01:51:33

Benny and act like everything was fine I I went grieved and I was home in 24 hours from California to Florida.

01:51:40

So it's tough. It's really tough Well, thank you Don and since you're a first -time questioner you are going to receive in the mail

01:51:49

Compliments of Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service and compliments of the publishers of the New American Standard Bible You're going to receive in the mail a free

01:51:56

New American Standard Bible. So please give us your full mailing address in Valdez Alaska and God willing that should arrive fairly soon we have a listener who actually is the pastor of The Word of Truth Church in Farmingville, Long Island who

01:52:14

I mentioned earlier Who is hosting the Gospel of the Reformation celebration that is pastor

01:52:21

Bruce Bennett of the Word of truth a church in Farmingville, Long Island, not the

01:52:27

Word of Faith Church and he says yes something that you just touched on and I want you to clarify if you could and I'm actually

01:52:37

I'm actually going to add a fourth option to what he asked He says, how would you rate

01:52:44

Benny Hinn currently misguided teacher as to methodology? Number two false teacher as to methodology and secondary doctrines, but still

01:52:53

Orthodox on essential doctrine three heretical teacher Falsely represents the

01:53:00

Godhead and or Jesus and or salvation and or ultimate authority. I'm going to add my fourth

01:53:06

Category is he an out -and -out charlatan who is knowingly deceiving people according to what you can assess

01:53:15

Knowing him as you have Good question. I'll keep it short and be really honest with you guys

01:53:22

It's not the first option that you mentioned initially. It's it's a jumping from the other three

01:53:29

So outright charlatan deceiving people knowingly. Absolutely. I've seen it I'm not going to get into it because that's not edifying but 100 % knows what he's doing at certain times and Why he's doing it

01:53:42

My uncle is a false teacher who is using and twisting and Capitalizing on the gospel and it is a false gospel.

01:53:52

It's a false version of Jesus and thirdly we have all So we can't deceive ourselves either.

01:53:58

We have all heard uncle Benny preach a clear gospel message Justin Peters one time said to me Kosti. I've heard uncle preach a better gospel message than some reformed preachers.

01:54:07

I know but That does not negate all the other things and we know that that's a ploy when

01:54:14

Paul describes false prophets He makes I'll illustrate how we tell people at our church all the time

01:54:20

Satan doesn't come with a pitchfork and a red tail and horns false teachers. Don't come and say hey

01:54:25

I'm here to deceive you with a false gospel They mix in truth with error that is how you deceive people you do not give them full -blown error

01:54:35

And so he dances from one two, and three, but we know what that means. That is a false teacher.

01:54:42

So Just say it outright. He's a false teacher deceiving people and being deceived and he has been a vessel unto the destruction and the shipwrecked faith of many and he is in his 60s he

01:54:56

May listen to this eventually and I want him to repent and turn away And that's my my prayer until his dying day is just Repent and turn back, but he is a verified false teacher

01:55:12

Who dabbles in whatever category he needs to to for as means to his own end

01:55:17

Thank You pastor Bruce in Farmingville Long Island, New York and keep spreading the word about the iron sharpens iron radio program in Farmingville, Long Island and beyond and God willing

01:55:29

I will see you at the The 500th anniversary celebration of the Reformation at the end of this month we have

01:55:36

Joey and Clifton, New Jersey, and I am just enlarging or enlarging his question because the font is microscopic and I can barely read it and Joey from Clifton, New Jersey Asks Let's see here.

01:55:55

I'm so happy to use the phrase dear pastor Hinn in good conscience I have a deep concern for those who have been influenced by word -of -faith leaders

01:56:05

How do you recommend reaching our friends who may not be aware of the implications of these beliefs?

01:56:11

For example, you ask your friend for prayer and she says it's done in Jesus name You tell your friend about God's sovereignty over his future and he wants to avoid the discussion because he thinks you will negatively

01:56:23

Influence the outcome for him. You talk to your friend about what you are learning from Scripture But your friend talks about feelings impressions and what

01:56:32

God is telling him or her How do we reach people who are so biased in the way they see?

01:56:39

Scripture in the world and it invades every aspect of their theology and living

01:56:44

I have found it so hard to break through the wall because it is a whole mindset I wonder if based on your experience you have any guidance on how to effectively reach people who have been so influenced

01:56:57

Joey the same across the board man We're evangelizing the lost and so that includes those who think they've been found you keep relational doors open

01:57:07

You keep going to coffee. You keep putting truth in front of them You keep loving them by giving them truth that's actually love love and just this ethereal thing you got to love people by giving them the truth and speaking that truth and love and It's the same thing with dealing with your unsaved friends who are

01:57:23

They want to go do worldly things and you want to do godly things you keep doing godly things You keep living the truth you keep doing what

01:57:30

God has called and appointed and saved you and purposed you to do and Along the way you are calling everyone unto salvation.

01:57:38

That is evangelism You need to keep doing that and It doesn't ever get easy, but God is sovereign in salvation and I try to keep the doors for evangelism always

01:57:49

Open there's no day off. So you are always a vessel for God to use and then you trust them and you never stop

01:57:56

Hey prayer prayer prayer and evangelism evangelism evangelism That's the way to do it.

01:58:02

And I know that's the cookie cutter Bible answer The Bible is where we go for that isn't it and I am so sorry to all of you who are still waiting to have

01:58:11

Your questions asked and answered but we have run out of time And I know that I am going to want to schedule Kosti to return even if you could hold on right now

01:58:18

Kosti when we go off the air, I want to schedule another interview with you because so please hold on I want to make sure our listeners know that your church website is mission

01:58:28

Bible dot o RG mission Bible dot o RG and That is the mission

01:58:35

Bible Church of Tustin, California And my second co -host who's on the phone pastor

01:58:41

John Sampson The website for the church where he pastors the King's Church or King's Church in Peoria, Arizona That website is

01:58:50

King's Church AZ comm King's Church AZ comm it was such a thorough

01:58:56

Wonderful joy to have you on the program today Kosti. So please hold on and let me reschedule you

01:59:02

Thank You Reverend Buzz Taylor for being in studio with us Thank you Everybody who wrote in questions today and all of you who listened and I want you all to always remember for the rest of your