September 8, 2017 Show with Costi Hinn on “From Word of Faith Heresy to Sovereign Grace Truth: The Testimony of an Apple that Did Fall Very Far Away From the Tree”

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Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania. Lake City, Florida and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at iron sharpens iron radio .com. This is Chris Arns and your host of iron sharpens iron radio wishing you all a happy Friday on this 8th day of September 2017 and I am so excited about today's interview.

Costi Hinn’s Background and Mission Bible Church

It's a first-time guest who has a last name that I'm sure everyone in this listening audience has recognized or will recognize. Perhaps not for very good reasons. But we have on the program today for the very first time Kosti Hinn that's H I NN who is nephew of renowned word-of-faith leader Benny Hinn and Today he is an associate pastor of adult ministries at Mission Bible Church of Tustin, California.

Today we are going to be addressing the theme from word-of-faith heresy to sovereign grace truth. The testimony of an apple that did fall very far away from the tree. And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time ever to iron sharpens iron radio Kosti Hinn.

Thank you so much Chris, I really appreciate you having me on all the pleasure is all mine and.

We have two co-hosts today. We have on the phone serving as co-host. I believe for the first time he's serving as co-host. But he's been a guest on iron sharpens iron radio many times. John Sampson who is an author and pastor of Kings Church in Peoria, Arizona.

It's great to have you back on the program pastor John.

It's great to be with you guys. I'm looking forward to all that. We'll be able to talk about very important stuff.

Amen, and in studio with me is the reverend buzz Taylor my usual co-host and it's great to be here today.

Once again, and it's good to meet you you guys.

It's interesting that all three folks here that are joining me on this program have considerable backgrounds in the Pentecostal charismatic movement Kosti Hinn and John Sampson being formally involved in the word-of-faith movement very heavily.

In fact, John Sampson as many of you who listen regularly to Iron sharpens iron radio will remember that John Sampson before coming to the doctrines of Sovereign Grace and becoming a Reformed Baptist pastor.

Was not only a word-of-faith pastor, but was a word-of-faith television host on the TBN network. And God had mercy upon him and delivered him from that and Of course Kosti Hinn our guest today who is the nephew of Benny Hinn? was heavily heavily involved in that movement as well.

And I'd like to first of all give our audience the email address where they can send in questions of their own. It's Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. C-h-r-i-s-a-r-n-z-e-n at gmail .com. And please give us at least your first name your city and state in your country of residence.

If you live outside the USA, please only remain completely anonymous if it is about a personal and private matter. Over which you are asking perhaps you are in a word-of-faith truth of word-of-faith Church, and you are beginning to doubt.

Or have questions about the teachings there and you don't want to identify yourself publicly at this stage of the game. Well, I understand that completely you may remain anonymous or for any other reason that compels you to remain anonymous.

We will accept that and and grant your request other than that. They'll please give us at least your first name city and state and country of residence Kosti. Before we go into your own background your the religion of your youth your upbringing and so on I'd like for you to tell our listeners about Mission Bible.

Church of Tustin, California.

Yeah, thanks. We are a church located right in the heart of ornology. You and I have joked before we're pretty millennial if that matters. We're gonna talk about more serious amazing teaching pastor. Pastor Anthony would.

He is a brother a friend one of my best friends on this whole earth and he's actually the pastor today and The church is growing. We have a deep conviction and nothing else much younger. It's a lot more of a rarer thing and we are just so church here.

Lots of families a lot of a lot of babies being born in our church. So that's fun. That's the number one way to grow a church, by the way, everybody just keeps having babies. And so lots of family and just very thankful thankful for my role to be a part of that church and for the people that I Serve with a blog as well.

Cessationism and Continuationism in the Church

Oh my pleasure. And one thing I find interesting is that you will have I have found a.

Number of Charismatic or Pentecostal pastors or just Christians in general who when they discover the doctrines of sovereign grace or reform theology or Calvinism. However, you want to phrase it? They do at times.

Become cessationists. They leave everything that is uniquely Charismatic or Pentecostal behind them when they come to the doctrines of grace, but there are also quite a number maybe even more who while embracing a new theology in regard to God's sovereignty They retain their charismatic beliefs and they are not cessationists.

Their continuationists are continuous. What how would you describe? The church there where you are pastoring or co-pastoring Mission Bible Church of Tustin, California. In that regard we are.

Cessationist and we out of the charismatic movement and from even open but cautious a Continued constant membership class or a new incoming members thing. Do you guys not believe that God does miracles?

Do you not believe God heals. We find ourselves we recognize hospital of their gospel message and off we go. We often have he can do what he wants. Be some of you guys even known people who get. And by the way.

No need to apologize about your pre-millennialism, even though I'm not pre millennial. Some of my greatest heroes of the faith were like Charles Spurgeon and Andrew Andrew Bonar and his brother Horatius Bonar.

So there are a lot of John MacArthur. You could go on and on. With my heroes who are pre-millennial. So I have to apologize about that. In fact, it's interesting that our confessions of faith. I'm sorry, brother.

I just want to say that Charles Spurgeon was pre-millennial, but now he's met Jesus as he has changed.

And The it's interesting that our confessions of faith all of the Reformed confessions Whether it be the 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith or the Westminster or the three forms of unity the specifics of eschatology that would separate pre mill post millennial aren't there.

They just insist that you believe in the visible physical Return of Christ at the end of civilization and so on on earth that is and but we are going to be talking about a lot of things involving your journey Kosti.

And If you could start with your childhood. What kind of faith or religion you were raised in if any? I'm not certain when you eventually came to be a participant in your uncle Benny Hinn's theology, and I'm not even sure when he Truly became immersed if not a leader in the word of faith movement, but if you could start with yourself.

Costi Hinn’s Childhood in a “Gospel Plus” Environment

In your own upbringing. Yeah, I grew up in a in a home where my dad is and I grew up. I call it gospel plus because we had a really clear understanding of the gospel. Redemption what Christ did his atoning sacrifice and then the plus part is.

You know, yeah, there's all that about Christ and the gospel, but then there's this John 10 10 abundant life parentheses now thing and That abundant life. Yeah, sure. But there's that if you tap into it you can start living heaven on earth and so that was a My childhood in a nutshell my parents to be honest with you.

As an adult man now in ministry with all that's gone on with with. With some of the interviews and different stuff I've written and done I've had some good conversations with my parents in the past. I would say a year and a half to two years and They've they've asked a lot of questions and I've asked a lot of questions and together.

We've we've been walking together as is biblically and hang out and you know, I kick back with all the false teachers. But for purposed evangelism a lot of my family members who aren't necessarily false teachers, but have been in the movement they've been really clear about my childhood all of our childhood, which was we followed what we were taught and My parents that doesn't let anyone off the hook, right?

But it does explain to people that are listening kind of what what we believed in where we came from. My dad is by no stretch of the imagination a theologian a lot of the times we received books and material from Uncle Benny from those other assemblies of God denomination up in Canada that were gleaning from some of the wild excesses and.

So that material was inundating our church and Basically, you know looking back my dad and my mom had an opportunity to grow a church based on the circle they were in and so they chose to after nights to remember a Olive oil a lot of the time to anoint everybody to those like Kenneth Copeland at Hagen's he was by being.

But God existed for me. That was the way you give to get holy man. Who's anointed not the first Timothy 3. We ought to respect our leaders. So but it was taken to the nth degree in that any challenge was viewed as touching the Lord's anointed.

You could not question you could not push back. You could not hold any any of my family members would ever admit it that way Revered as revered outside of our circle as he was.

Manipulation, Greed, and Entitlement in Word of Faith Circles

It's interesting that you used that phrase that you viewed yourself as a royal family. Because I have heard word of faith.

Pentecostal.

Talkshow hosts and pastors Use that kind of phraseology in general For those who are believers in the word of faith. And I can even remember a friend of mine who? Because of his his business that he owns which is an alarm company alarms and All kinds of protection devices for your business your place of business Surveillance cameras and all that kind of thing.

He developed a friendship with one of the most notorious Word-of-faith Pentecostals on Long Island, New York and He's he's pretty much globally known this individual and they have become friends. In fact, I think they're still friends he now he He views this person as a Part of a mission field because he views him as somebody that needs to be saved.

This is my friend. Because when he first met this pastor, he was not a Christian, but he was invited to this pastor's birthday party and He comes to the birthday party and there is a stripper there and He was shocked.

My friend was shocked and he said to this minister How on earth can you have a stripper here, this is really disturbing you're supposed to be a man of God a minister and The pastor's response was I'm a child of the king.

I'm a prince. I could do whatever I want to do and Ironically, I have another friend who was a member before he became Spiritually enlightened and he left that same pastors congregation. I have a friend who was raised in that church and His wife was invited to a bridal shower that that pastor's wife was having for a member of the church.

And there was a male stripper there I mean This I don't know if this kind of thing was going on in your circles because I know that you can't use a cookie-cutter Approach to these things, but there seems to be a pride and arrogance and a sense of entitlement that some folks in this Theological spectrum Demonstrate is this anything is this totally foreign to your experience or is this something that sounds familiar to you?

It sounds familiar. We didn't have growing up. My parents were very very strict. And so if you think of the the legalistic I mean we were. No one wore earrings. My mom would take the hearings out of my sister's ears when we went to other churches certain places.

I mean my direct and so My wife can tell.

She can tell you that I mrs. In growing and I mrs. In.

Growing together the shock for her was Not necessarily what you described at some of those those events. But for for her she was shocked how we did do whatever we wanted and we thought we could do whatever we wanted.

So again, there were certain you said you can't be cookie cutter. There were certain boundaries that we had. It's like an honest beef, right? So we didn't necessarily go wild with certain types of parties but we Did what we wanted with the offerings?

We Work if we didn't want to we didn't show up to the church office if we didn't want to we decided to go on a seven Day vacation. We would just go. You'd spend whatever money you want. You could start a fundraiser anytime.

You just go preach and you tell people that God told you there's an anointing for gifts of a thousand dollars $1 ,000 and to receive a special anointing and. And so again, I call it an honest beef because while it wasn't over in like you described it was very much Manipulation and greed.

What sin is sin in that regard? It was working itself out just in other ways and when my wife came along in my life I think that was one of the biggest shop Abish lifestyle game a whack-a-mole just lust that that's not anointed.

Everybody did the cleaner. Yeah.

Word of Faith Prosperity and Media Exploitation

Well what you said truly? Rings a bell with me because I have been in the radio advertising business since the mid 80s and in the Christian radio business nearly as long. And it is at least in the New York area.

I'm not sure if this is a nationwide phenomenon. But in the New York area it is notorious amongst account executives in Christian radio stations that they know if there is a word-of-faith Pentecostal pastor around or if he's having an event.

That you usually could sell that person advertising without a delay without waiting because if that pastor wants to spend Thousands of dollars on an ad campaign. He doesn't he doesn't need to submit to the vote of a board or even have a discussion with a board he just said yeah, sure and He'll just take a fistful of cash and pay it and.

But this is another irony. Is that they also this group these word-of-faith churches and Pentecostals? I did not succumb to that temptation. They were not among my clients, but The station would often be racked with Unpaid bills because that these Ministries and churches very often would not pay the entire amount that they owe.

They might pay the down payment that was required to get the ad campaign rolling but then that would the payments would stop and then they would wind up not being paid for the entirety of what they Purchased so that was another blemish upon What they were doing obviously.

When we come back from the break we're going to our first break now this is going to be it's always difficult pastor John Sampson when I have a Co-host on the phone because I can't see you. I can't see you waving to me wanting to ask a question or something.

So Just keep in mind that you can chime in anytime that you see an opening or hear an opening. Where you have a question that you want to pose for Kosti as long as you're not jumping on his words while he's still speaking.

Just chime in any time you want and I might as well give you the opportunity to ask a question of Kosti when we return from the break. So if anybody else would like to join us with a question, and we already have some people Waiting to have their questions asked and answered by Kosti.

Our email address again is chrisarnson at gmail .com. Chrisarnson at gmail .com. Please give us your first name at least your city and state and your country of residence if you live outside of the good old USA don't go away.

We'll be right back with Kosti Hinn and his testimony of leaving the word of faith movement. One sure way all iron sharpens iron radio listeners can help keep my show on the air is to support my advertisers.

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This is Chris Arnzen. If you just tuned us in our guest today for the full two hours with about 90 minutes to go is Kosti Hinn nephew of renowned Word of Faith leader Benny Hinn. He's an associate pastor of adult ministries at Mission Bible Church of Tustin, California.

And today we are addressing from Word of Faith heresy to Sovereign Grace truth the testimony of an apple that did fall very far away from the tree. And we have also co-hosting the program today a Pastor John Sampson of King's Church in Peoria, Arizona.

Also a former Word of Faith Pentecostal who we've had on this program many times and in studio with me is the Reverend Buzz Taylor. My normal co-host if you'd like to join us on the air our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. And we do have a question from one of my co-hosts Pastor John Sampson of King's Church in Peoria, Arizona.

The Deity of Christ and the Errors of Word of Faith Teaching

Yes, hi Kosti, it's great to talk with you again, I'm sure you agree that amongst what we call Pentecostal and Charismatics, there's a wide range of theologies. Oftentimes the church that is Distinguished that way would maybe or maybe not have sound biblical theology about God.

About Who Jesus is you can find some very good material there. But you can also find very strange and heretical material when we're talking about the Word of Faith. What would you say are the distinctives when we move from the lavish lifestyle you described to looking at?

What is the root of the teaching? How do we define it? What would they? Define God as Jesus as the gospel as in the Word of Faith, and I'm interested in your answer.

That's an excellent question because you can have people who are Theologically very Orthodox, but who also live lavish lifestyles when their congregation is On the border of starvation, you know, they're not living even according to the average Lifestyle of the person in the church, but if you could that's an excellent question Kosti.

Yeah, absolutely, I like that you brought up Doctrine because it really a man's lavish lifestyle. It might be an indicator of some things. But it is not an indicator of the main thing and the main thing is in these Word of Faith churches.

You're gonna have ethical teaching on The deity of Christ and so this goes back to first century if anybody is interested at all I hope people are at some point. I mean, I know we've got a lot of history is rich with evidence.

That from the earliest times in the early church the deity of Christ was assaulted and so you'll hear things like Jesus did his miracles lived died as a Sinless man not as God. He came down and just became a man and therefore.

That's why we can do all these things too. We can do miracles in this lives too. We can the great Greatest leaders and I don't mean that in a good sense. I mean just great in his scale his scope. He's one of the highest top greatest leaders in the Word of Faith movement learned everything from Kenneth Hagan.

He said we're in that whole circle as well at his baptism when the dove came to the father. Oh, yeah, it's.

Yeah, that's that's disturbing. That's even more deadly a sin than any of the other uniquely charismatic or Pentecostal attachments to this Word of Faith movement that that is.

A.

Damnable truly damnable unquestionably damnable teaching.

Yeah, yeah, I wanted to say one of the reasons I was I stayed in the movement so long was there was no central headquarters that was reviewing what I believed and taught that I had to answer to and I remember coming to the United States from a Word of Faith background in England and Discussed the subject of what happened from the cross to the throne Which is one of the cardinal doctrines of the Word of Faith.

Kenneth Copeland and others have outlined some very Heretical material in that realm and I remember asking another Word of Faith pastor What he thought about the issue and about some of Copeland's statements and he just said well, he's just a jerk in that area and I was just amazed that he could have the freedom to say that and he says yeah I don't buy that at all.

And I thought oh, so I don't have to believe that To be in the Word of Faith. I can just say he's out to lunch in that area and that allowed me to stay even though I I believe I had an orthodox understanding of the cross at that point.

Do you see that in your Looking at the whole movement that there are people that Just way out to lunch and not everybody in the movement embraces every statement of some of these heretical teachers.

Absolutely, I actually just sat with a friend recently he's a professor now at a seminary out in California out here, but back in the 70s and the 80s he was friends with John Wimber and He shared with me, you know, obviously I'm not going to name his name.

But he shared with me a conversation that he had because I asked him, you know, I've read some of John Wimber's material I've listened to some of his sermons. I've studied him and He walked out of and John you you'll notice because you're again involved like I was a kid at the time.

But he walked in the wild teachings and vineyard pastors who got up when there was he was a part of it. I never meant for it to I never meant for it to go this far. I just wanted to pray for people. I mean, I have my positions on the gift and the thought people would actually think in at night and he would say, you know.

That guy's crazy. And if my dad got older even he started thinking, you know I don't want to be involved with all the wild stuff kind of be in the movement. But not even know what everybody believes you don't necessarily believe what everybody believes or teaches what they all teach but X and balances.

There's no account of it yet and that's dangerous because she'd need to be led with clarity.

Now how prevalent though? To the ask the reverse question how prevalent is that? Nearly. Aryan teaching of Christ. At least while he was on earth they believed he was merely a born-again man. That I have heard Kenneth Copeland and others describe Christ's death on Calvary in in a most blasphemous and grotesque way that he actually became a demonic entity on Calvary when they they totally and grotesquely twist that he became sin on our behalf and to meaning that he actually became a demon.

And I have heard that. They will even use as a biblical proof Moses is Raising up the bronze serpent on a stick As something that pictured that. If you could comment on that costume.

Yeah that we're gonna find that in the extreme camps that taken never heard my dad teach that from his pulpit. But again, we followed all of these people like John described. You could say, you know Copeland's out to lunch on that one, but it still doesn't negate that you're teaching everything else they teach.

And to help as well bring this into today's terms. We talked about Copeland. He's 80 now. He's really old. Wow, and he's about to go. He's on the back end. Let's say of his ministry. He'll go at some point here.

But there are others like Bill Johnson and Bethel Church Chris Vallotton Todd white the New Apostolic Reformation that crew is Teaching the exact same thing and I've got it committed to memory Chris because I deal with a lot of young people at our church and our adult next-generation pastors are dealing with a lot of Millennials and.

So it's page 29 of Bill Johnson's book when heaven invades earth. I remember it. I can see it in my mind. He says Jesus did his miracles as a man in right relationship with God. And he literally then says not as God there are they're attainable for us and he goes on to express that a Christianity or we can't actually do minds and wonders and live.

Identically to an encounter with God and he lady. He's out music Jesus culture now.

They also I'm when I say they I'm of course don't mean every single person Involved in that movement, but many word of faith Pentecostals it seems. Believe in a twisting of the Apostles Creed in reference to Jesus Descending into hell.

I have heard the theology from word-of-faith teachers that that actually means that Jesus was tortured by demons in hell and became the first born-again man in hell.

Yeah, when you're claiming divine revelation and That you have there's what Jesus and God is telling you things that no one else knows. You can take the scriptures and you can twist them as far and As deep as you want and that's one of those I was in services where that was taught.

Certainly that he you know He went down and he took the keys was something that was always said and there were other. You know He went down and he was tortured and he became as we were and became dead and was defeated and it just all these things that make zero sense and and they're.

They're derived from a from the Bible and then taken to the nth degree. It's like a really bad topical sermon right where a guy leaps off a text and then goes 18 different directions. Simply because he wanted to and that's why we have to preach the word and preach the text not preach Ourselves and then use the text to accomplish whatever we want to preach.

And so yeah, what you just described is That exact thing. That's what's happening. So if that helps people understand.

That's exactly what's happening. Yeah, I went to a theatrical.

Greater Works, Tongues, and the Nature of Spiritual Gifts

Yeah, sure. Can I jump in and ask you a question about? I'm imagining a word of faith guy listening in or gal Saying. But Jesus said he who believes in me the works that I do shall he do also and even greater works and these shall he do because I go to my father and I can almost hear their frustration as well.

We're just taking Jesus at his word. Why don't you and you know you and I need to Respond to that. Because I can imagine that being in the mind of some people as they're listening in. Jesus in John 14 said that.

What what's the problem?

I love that question. My mom and Maybe she'll listen to this eventually. I love you mom. I talk a lot. She calls herself a Berean because she's always asking me questions. And a quick praise on that is just a month ago.

She said hey any thoughts on Sarah Young and Jesus calling and I said mom you got to be careful. So I explained it to her and she says alright, I'm getting rid of those books. I want to be like a Berean and one of the things she asked me when she said I'm trying to do better.

I'm trying to learn. I'm listening to your interviews. I'm intrigued but Kosti what about when he said greater works. Will you do that? I mean, what about the greater works? And so yeah, John and I would say two things though.

I think people will say well, there's lofty sex tension. But first contextually he's taught when you've got John 14, and then you jump over to John 16. You're dealing with two chapters that mention the Holy Spirit is coming.

Jesus is going to go. All of that contextually needs to be mentioned and understood a Jesus isn't 17. In Galilee, he certainly is long. You're more people go. I'm gonna do remarkably amazing things. Take it again about Amen and.

What we were saying before about Jesus being tortured in hell and becoming the first born-again man in hell according to Those in the Word of Faith movement or some in the Word of Faith movement. And I was at a theatrical performance at a major Christian theater that does Broadway level productions and I saw their Easter edition of this this theater.

And this theory group I should say and they had Jesus after his death Being theatrically Displayed as being tied to a chair Blindfolded as demons danced around his chair smacking him and poking him and so on.

The the other aspect that seems to be an element of their heresy Seems to be very close to a Mormon heresy where one of the greatest Heresies that Mormons see in Reform theology according to our confessions the thing that they would declare Mormons would declare as heresy.