Upcoming Events and some critiques for Travis Thomas (Church of Christ)

All right, welcome everybody to another episode of the Parish Reformed. We're gonna talk a little bit about what we have upcoming and and do a little review of Jeremiah's cousin. We're gonna talk about that a little bit.

Upcoming Announcements and the Church of Christ Debate Preview

So I just want to I want to introduce my guest once once again, Jeremiah Nortier.

What's up, buddy Trey? Thanks for having me on man. I'm really looking forward to talking about coming announcements with Reform Con. With some things we have going with cultish and you may not can see the shirt.

But you and I are going to be in an up-and-coming documentary along with many other Wonderful contenders in the faith. So we definitely have to get into some of that. Oh.

We will we can but yeah Reform Con. I you know, I'm looking forward to I'm looking forward to Doing our podcast. Mmm our podcasts with some of these guys over at Apologia, but I'm really looking forward.

You know it cultish part two of the Church of Christ. I get to answer some so when I did the first time. Like a year ago, I guess a little over a year ago right a year ago. There's a lot of pros and cons that people have You know commented on on the YouTube video of the cultish Church of Christ and so we're gonna answer 20 questions of pros 20 questions of cons and get to talk about that and My buddy Jeremiah Nortier is gonna be sitting there with me and we're gonna get to do it together.

Oh, yeah.

I can't wait. I can't wait to meet Jeremy or Jeremiah Jerry. Yeah.

He's pretty solid dude. He's he's the nicest guy I've ever met. Really is Love him. So, yeah, I'm looking forward to that and obviously the documentary feel very honored and and to be a part of that. But today I want to talk about a few things.

I do want to talk about your cousin a little bit because he did a video on you. And he you know, he I can honestly say I've not watched one since our debate. I did watch a few clips of two different clips.

But.

Man, he loves you. I think he loves me too. I mean from the things he says he just comes across so loving but I do want to talk about that just to kind of give a a An appetizer to the things that we're gonna talk about on cultish part two, you know, and like this is just just absolute proof to what we're saying when we're Talking about this stuff and I think the the crazy thing is when you talk about the Church of Christ.

Me and you believe that there are Christians within the Church of Christ. There are Christians in the Church of Christ. It's their doctrine that they teach. That is so hurtful and unscriptural and a false gospel.

But there are people in the Church of Christ who truly do have faith in Christ Jesus. They're just carrying a heavy weight on their shoulders because they don't understand scripture correctly because they've been taught Poorly on those things and I can say that because I was one of them.

But we do believe that there are Christians in the Church of Christ unlike your cousin. Who says there's no Christians?

Sound Doctrine, Ecclesia, and the Nature of the Church

Yeah, I want to add to that just a little bit. We hold the teachers in the Church of Christ to a different standard. Because James 3 verse 1 says they will have a stricter condemnation. That's why many of you shouldn't be teachers because the weight that it that it bears and so I believe it's Titus 1 9 that says that we are actually called to rebuke those that contradict sound doctrine.

So I love what you're saying is there are people within the Church of Christ movement now. We refer to them as a dumb denomination because they are a gathering of people that hold to a standard of teaching.

So in these conversations. They're a denomination by definition and they a lot of times like as we're gonna we're gonna get into. Travis Thomas.

And.

He's simply begging the question when we're talking about who the Church of Christ actually is. Well, we believe the Ecclesia are those that are called out by God by faith. And so for them, it's totally different.

So when you just read Romans 16 16 and we see churches of Christ. Well, all you can demonstrate from the text is that as churches in the plural. All that does is help us distinguish from the Universal Church where Jesus said he will build his church Singular and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it.

But then we do see the local church right the visible church manifested in many different wonderful congregations. But that's what the Church of Christ is. That's telling us the nature of the Ecclesia the called-out ones by faith.

So we'll get into some of that.

I'm sure. Yeah, we can but just to you know, point that out as well just to drive that home a little bit more. I guess. The Church of Corinth. We're in the wrong church. And the Church of Rome. The Church of Ephesus, right.

Because that's what they were called, you know, right.

I'm gonna show you pointing out. You're pointing at his standard. Implodes on itself because if he takes that standard Romans 16 16, you got to be a church of Christ in your name. Well that totally discounts all these other churches in the Bible.

Every one of them, you know, but God love them.

And we'll show you even the guy who started their movement the Church of Christ denomination Thomas and Alexander Campbell.

Didn't even go to a Church of Christ. Hey, that's just me or their church. That's just that's just what your Bible says. Yeah, you're reading tall Alexander.

But you know, I also want to I want to point this out. Okay, I Want to point this out because when we talk about these things so many people. You know, I heard a thing about Votie Baucham talking about how today people are so concerned about their emotions.

It's all about their emotions. It's just true. He calls it anti intellectualism. We're opposed to that. And so as long as you can say something nice and it sounds good and it's just uplifting and Beautiful then people are like yes amen to that right and like he says in his little speech.

He goes, yeah, but did you did you hear the heretical teachings in that? You know because we don't want to think about that like it when we call someone out like this I mean, this is this is very hurtful to people and to families.

Who get sucked into this type of doctrinal teaching it just destroys relationships. Because it's a false gospel. But when we call that out and we're warning people like the Bible says to do. You know Jeremiah you get looked at I get looked at so many people Votie Baucham gets looked at as being mean and unloving.

Just simply because we're calling this out. But we would argue scripturally that that's the most loving thing we can do. Because we fear God more than we fear man. And and the reason people don't want to do that today in our culture because we're all based on feelings and emotions.

We fear that we fear man more than we fear God and we want their approval more than God's and so it's just a warning. Tread lightly when you deal with this stuff with other people just.

Be loving but sometimes the truth hurts, but we have to do that and I absolutely and we've already received so many emails people reaching out to us that We have played a part by God's grace to help them see The gospel of grace right to see the legalism this yoke of bondage that they've been expected to carry around and to put a facade on going to church and try to leave a Live up to these standards that when people in their heart of hearts that are in these movements, they realize what they're in, right?

They realize that man, you got to be good enough or you're not getting in. I mean you can you've shared with me some of the emails that you've gotten you can just see the brokenness. I've been a part of those zoom calls where it's just like you would not believe The church environment and you're just like hey, I lived it for 18 years.

I get to come in and just you know Try to help love on them and encourage them and to say hey. Let's try to find a biblical church right where you can flourish in your walk with the Lord and we.

Try to find so many churches for people and that's the thing that people don't see. They hear this. Oh, they're just talking about these people. They're so mean. Do you realize how many phone calls and emails I get you get of saying?

Thank you like this helped me. I. By God's grace we get to play a part in this miracle of seeing people's eyes become open, you know. I mean even preachers. Church of Christ preachers, right? Yeah, I'm like we're out and it's just it's amazing to see God work In these things and and hear their stories.

You know of people getting kicked out of their houses because they don't believe the Church of Christ doctrine and Cut off from families and it's just it's so bad. Well, let's just jump into your cousin real quick and let's just break down what we're talking about and just their legalism.

Go ahead. Can you be my little cousin?

He's your first cousin. Yeah, but um. But this is the the legalism and this is how they do things and so. You did an interview with Eli, right?

Eli yallah from revealed apologetics. From revealed apologetics and it was talking about the Church of Christ.

Which a lot of people and a lot of people don't really understand it right. Because it's just like it's kind of a small sect and You know a lot of people don't understand the deep teachings of the Church of Christ and it's it's a christianese language.

You know, they say all the right things and they point to scripture and stuff like that. But they don't realize how much it's twisted. And so you go on the show to kind of explain that to Eli who's a very smart like genius theologian type guy and He was even kind of like wow, right like kind of yeah taken back from their teachings.

One of the things that he was really surprised at and I know I know you've rightly pointed out. Not all Church Christ believe this but the way they view the Holy Spirit is not indwelling believers. I've had many conversations Trey with Church Christ will say every time you read the Holy Spirit You can just substitute the word Bible and read I'm like for one that's not good exegesis.

That's not good hermeneutics. You let the whole Council of God speak and God is with us by virtue of the Holy Spirit. Indwelling his people that kind of plays into the ecclesia. We're called out by the Spirit of God who has regenerated us to put our faith in Christ.

And so that was one of the things that Eli was just like wow. So when you read the Holy Spirit really they they're reading as you engage with the Word of God, right? So that's that's perhaps an extreme, but I've came across that many times.

The Holy Spirit, Scripture, and Regeneration

Yeah.

Well, I just had a conversation a couple days ago with a guy from South Carolina, Tennessee. And the guy from South Carolina's and you know Church Christ preacher. We've had a lot of good talks and he was talking about how it's the Holy Spirit.

Is the Bible, right? I mean, it's just so sad, but uh.

And they're so close to because we do believe that the scripture is inspired by the Holy Spirit and As the Holy Spirit dwells us the Holy Spirit draws us to the word. You gotta have those those proper categories, right?

Sorry, you ready to look at your cousin just to make. Let's do it. Here we go.

I'm gonna back that up. I think that we started towards the end there. I like how it says. More lies at the top.

Here we go.

Because you can't teach people they don't want to learn. They know it all. That's another thing today. You can't teach people who don't appreciate this lady. They don't want to learn. They're not interested.

I'm glad you put that up here. That they make some of them think that because if they if if they don't learn then are not accountable. They're accountable. They're still accountable. Okay. Adults are accountable.

You got to put that in there.

But you know What I want to say first is of course everybody can say that I say that I say the same thing. Like the only thing that people who think they know everything the only thing they can't do is learn anything, right?

So that application applies to you to Travis so it applies to me it applies to you. We have to be willing to look at scripture and learn. So just because you say that about Jeremiah and I'm sure everybody else you would that doesn't agree with you is who you would throw into that.

Just know that that can be applied to you as well but I don't think that's ever crossed his mind like he thinks in his mind like he would. Sit down and study with anyone and be open to God's Word, right?

But I don't think that's the case. Let's keep going a lot of things.

Most Church of Christ don't see that distinction and. As we talk a little bit more about the history about Alexander Campbell and Thomas Campbell's dad. They launched essentially for the first time in 1811 May 4th the Church of Christ.

Another guy on the internet line.

Yeah, Jeremiah, why did you just make up May 4th 1811?

I don't I don't understand his reasoning. I'm looking at good historical Documentation that's catalog these things and it's well attested to to be true Historically, so I'm not just making these things up out of thin air.

And if people want to go look I put in that video on my page I put in the show notes a lot of resources people can go look into the history of Alexander Campbell in Thomas Campbell so he's painting this like I'm just making it up out of thin air and I'm sure he's going to Accuse me of reading that in the Bible because you got to think Trey every time we say Church Christ He automatically assumes that they are the one true church God's gift to mankind like it's it's begging the question because I believe you and I are part of the Church of Christ.

Now in their mind, they're like, no, you're not that's it's not painted on your door and we're like, right? We understand Church of Christ differently. That's that is the nature of what the church is.

It's the Church of Christ. It's the Lord's Church. And so it's more than just a name. It's God's church. It's more than just a name painted on the sign in front of your church building, right? But that's you've we've had those conversations with Church Christ on the phone.

It's like you're talking to an attorney. What did you say to the last person that we talked to you know, is that it's a possible. It's a grammatically impossible for me to be a church. Mm-hmm.

Yeah, and so this is what you know, I tell people I just had this conversation last week with a guy from Tennessee in North Carolina or South Carolina the guy from Tennessee was asking him something and He just couldn't even answer it because it was just not framed correctly.

The words were not correct. You know, it's just and I said listen. Let me let me ask the question for you because you got to understand how to talk to them like they're so legalistic you have to you can't just Have a conversation with them and them have some grace and understanding of context of the conversation like it's it's word-word-word Da-da-da-da-da and so I said you have to speak to them like an attorney like a lawyer.

You got to be very direct very just. You have to ask it that way. You can't just say like if you ask somebody in the Church Christ Do you believe that baptism saves you? Well, they're not gonna say yes.

They're gonna say no Jesus saves you and and the normal person be like, okay, then we're good. No, no, so you didn't ask the right question. Do you believe you're saved when you get baptized? Do you believe you're saved before or after?

You're baptized. So those are how you have to ask them in those type senses because I can't.

Just not honest. So one way that I've asked the question I think it's really hard for Church Christ because they'll take me to Mark 16 16 like I've never read it before and What I try to remind you.

Yeah.

Yeah, and so what I remind them is look I agree on what the scripture says. But we disagree on its meaning and so does your water baptism. Justify you before God that is a tough question for the Church Christ because I'm bringing in Pauline terminology, right?

Well, what is justification? Well, most Church Christ haven't thought through what that means. They've just had drilled in their mind Mark 16 16 or Acts 2 38. And so when you get to justification you have to account for what Paul talks about and then they the more.

Trying to be nice to my words, but the Church Christ that have studied this a little bit more. They really want to make works always mean works of law and that doesn't work either, right?

So he just said how you're a liar, right? And you just said how it started in May of 1811 and he said, you know, here's another guy on the internet line. You know, here's another guy on the internet line Jeremiah.

So let's let's just see what he says.

Now we're gonna look. These guys are so ignorant. They think Alexander Campbell wrote the Bible.

Wait, so he's this is how Church of Christ people do. You're so ignorant Jeremiah that you and these Reformers Think they really believe that Alexander Campbell wrote the Bible. So we're just gonna clear this up.

I'm trying to you know be an arbiter between you two guys. I want y 'all to get along Jeremiah. Do you really believe Alexander Campbell wrote the Bible?

Absolutely not and it's crazy that we have to make this type of clarification. But I realized that he's putting on for a city right now. He's trying to rally the troops, but I think Trey anybody truly listening just sees the absurdity of what he's saying.

Yeah, well, and here's the thing is what I would point out is if we were talking me and you whatever I would understand what you're saying and I would be like, yeah, obviously you don't think that Alexander Campbell wrote the Bible, you know, but they they go to such an extreme to try to prove their points.

Like I think he really I think he really does think that I mean he because if you hear him talk and the anger behind him like Wow, but I mean this is so. But like this because this is how they would treat you and me, right you said this.

No matter what the context was then I'm gonna hold you to that and you're a liar, right? So this would be like us playing his game. Oh, yeah. Oh, oh Jeremiah's liar. No, you're the liar. You're telling everybody that he thinks that Alexander Campbell and all reformers and all people who don't agree with you think Alexander Campbell wrote the Bible.

That's what you said. What you said now, I know I know what he's trying to say, right? Yeah. Oh, yeah, but I'm just showing you how this we can play that game with him as well.

He doesn't realize that go ahead. Oh, yeah. Well, I just wanted to kind of recap so like why he's saying that and you can definitely chime in if you think I'm if I'm anywhere in the ballpark, but You know, I'm making the claim Alexander Campbell essentially for the first time started the Church of Christ now I'm not meaning, you know, the the nature of the true ecclesia, right?

He didn't start the the historical but they don't like Church of Christ when we Move past the the begging of the question and we're talking about them as you nicely pointed out a sect. But we're saying y 'all are a denomination.

I realize that they don't like that term, but they are by definition. And they're really trying to do what Rome does they're they're claiming to be the one true church where it's like the Mormons, right?

Yeah, because I believe all churches apostatized and you need Latter-day Saints to restore the the true church. And so it's just unfortunate because you really do have to scale these language barriers and when I'm okay I'm okay with encouraging people understand the Church of Christ as a denomination because that's what they literally are by definition and Always remind them we agree with the scripture says we disagree on its meaning.

That's where the conversation needs to happen, right?

So let's go back and check him out.

That's how. Watch them just listen, let's listen. They just continue to live. That's why they're members. You can't teach them because they believe their pastor. You can't do. They don't care about the Bible say they don't want to go back to the Bible and do what it's basically anathematized everybody else.

Yeah, and so this has this has a history worth looking into and. Like I said, they they disparage the idea of denominations. They say that's that's denominational teaching. You need to get back to the Bible and.

What is wrong with that? Get rid of these creed books like this one here. Throw it in the garbage.

I would have took it.

Give them to Jeremiah so he can teach his people. That's all we do. We got Google.

We can pause it real quick. So I want to encourage people. It's not that we stand up on Sunday and teach from the creed books. But we realize that Christ has been building his church for 2 ,000 years.

Has gifted the saints of old with the Holy Spirit that have good insight to the Word of God. And so the creeds are just showing us that stream of the true church. Saints that have been called out by faith regenerated by the Holy Spirit of Saying we go back to the Word of God.

These creeds are just a testimony to the wonderful work that God has been doing in his people for so long. And so when you're sola scriptura, you have the right categories of saying. Scripture is the ultimate standard that everything else is judged.

But because it's the ultimate standard it assumes that there's other standards that we look to and can learn from. But those are not infallible standards. Well and here I'll point out.

I don't want to show you some facts some historical facts but. Here's the deal. If you say the creed books are horrible throw them away throw them away throw them away. These are just man's opinions then my question to Travis would be.

Or anybody else for that matter in the Church of Christ. Well, then why do y 'all write books? Because That's just your opinion. See if I hold you to your own standard. Why are you doing a YouTube channel right now?

Why aren't you just reading Scripture? Why are you trying to expound and explain things? This is all it is. It's just really smart people in the past in the church. Who have passed on the teachings of the church and the the doctrines of the church?

Pointing to the scriptures to prove their teachings, right? That's what this is. But yet they do it. But everybody else is wrong for doing it. Like they don't even see their their preconceived ideas. They only see how they break their own standards and can't can't even live up to their own standards and that's the sad thing, but I just want to show something real quick because he just made the claim that.

That you lied about Alexander Thomas.

Broken, by the way. Yeah, you're a liar.

Started the Church of Christ. He's just saying how you know, you're talking about how they're exclusive, right? And that anybody in denominations are wrong and he's like what's wrong with that? What what's wrong with that, right?

Well, let me just show you a little history here and this is done by guy. I'll show you here in a minute. He did his thesis at the University of Kansas On Church Christ. Great great article. Just comment on this deal and I'll show you it to you.

I'll put the link or something in it, but here. Check this out. See in 1808 Campbell Thomas Campbell was he was suspended from preaching, but he continued to preach. Okay, and this is where he said he started this thing called the Christian Association.

And The Association chose a subtle motto where the scriptures speak we speak where the scriptures are silent we're silent. I don't know if he's ever heard that before but that's pretty interesting. Let's just go and down here to some things I want to by 1811 right here.

By 1811 the Christian Association had constituted itself as the brush run Church.

Wow.

Name for its location brush run Valley in Pennsylvania. So according to his own standard the guy who started his religion the Church of Christ denomination Is not even a Christian because he went to the brush run Church.

What I love what you're doing is We're not budging. We like we acknowledge Travis is in a different worldview. So even though he every time he says the Church of Christ, he's already assuming so much going into that, right?

Well, we're not gonna budge. We're gonna continue to call The Church Christ. The nomination is not the true church. It's something that Alexander did start.

Three said to do. Is that what you're saying?

The once delivered faith, right. And. Because they're gonna come back a lot of these Church of Christ leaders. They're gonna say well, that's Alexander Campbell. Why do you keep reading from your little word document there?

Let's just get back to the Bible. Well, we care about how God has interacted in history. And so for people that are wanting to learn We want to show you that all this funnels from from Alexander Campbell.

You can see the remnants, right? We speak where the Bible speaks and we're silent with the Bible silent. Well, that sounds good, but that's an impossible standard that's actually not a biblical standard because we're called to teach and Exegete the text right to the reading of the scripture to exhortation and to the teaching right?

That's a preacher and so we do have to take into account the the times and the cultures that we live in to explain to use Terminology and vernacular that exists today. So it's an impossible standard that they soon will break and I think we're gonna see that.

Oh Travis, here's a. There's so many standards that they have broken in among themselves and I like in this paper. He points out he said isn't it ironic that the the church for one the Church of Christ denomination.

Who says you can't be a Christian unless you're in the Church of Christ, but its roots. Assumed that there were other Christians other denominations because they were trying to all be one right and all Christians be united.

So they assume that there are Christians outside and you'll see Thomas and Alexander Campbell thought that but as it progressed It got more stringent and more stringent and more stringent. Okay, and we'll show you that but Let's look at this right here.

By 1811 the Christian Association constituted itself as the brush run Church, right? How convenient is this in the newly established brush run Church Thomas was chosen as the sole elder and Alexander Alexander as the preacher his son.

Well, not convenient you know and. So then here's some Alexander Campbell stuff, but I want to get down here just to show you.

This.

Right here, it's on page 16, I believe of what you were just talking about how they're exclusive and. You know denominations or they think the denominations are wrong and he's like what's wrong with that what's wrong with that.

Well. Here's the rise of exclusivism although the Christian Church and disciples of Christ because it started as Disciples of Christ then it ends up being as you get further down in history the Church of Christ, right?

But these are the roots we wrote a Unified movement for 75 years. Campbell's theme of unity through restoration began to fracture as early as 1840s. So it starts breaking up. I mean.

Few decades after it started. Okay. What have you said. Legalism fights itself?

I said, yeah legalism was it's the Galatian heresy, right? The the dogs will start eating themselves. I mean, that's just what they do. That's what Paul says. A movement founded on the principle of uniting all Christians naturally presumed that there were other Christians to unite itself.

But unite outside the Christian Church like right there like but yet he says no. Check this out. In 1835 Campbell lamented that some disciples were more concerned with denouncing the errors of those in the denominations Than with preaching the gospel.

He commented further on his on this furious zeal for orthodoxy in 1837. Some of our brethren were too much Addicted to denouncing the sex and representing them in mass as holy aliens from the possibility of salvation as holy.

Anti-christian and corrupt these very zealous brethren gave countenance to the popular clamor that we make baptism a Savior or a passport to heaven. Disparaging all the private and social virtues of the professing public see Alexander Campbell and Thomas Campbell actually believed that there were other Christians out there.

Who wasn't even baptized? They believe that stone Barton stone because they met up and you can look at that history. Here's what Barton stone said. Some among ourselves were for some time Zealously engaged to do away with party creeds and are yet zealously preaching against them but instead of a written creed of man's a device they've substituted a Nondescript one and exclude good brethren from their fellowship because they dare believe differently from their opinions.

I mean, this is their own leaders, but you see how just like Mormonism when Joseph Smith as bad as it was. Like wrong and so everything but the people who followed him even made it more stringent in Mormonism and came up with new rules.

New rules new rules. So it is with the Church of Christ when these guys started this. Like it became worse check this out.

The.

Exclusivism the both Campbell and stone recognized in 1830s continued to grow over the following decades. The exclusivistic faction Never comprised the majority within the whole of the restoration movement.

But it did eventually dominate the southern churches which became the churches of Christ. And then you can keep reading this Right here. This is it gets to the point where they don't even this. Austin McGregor even questions Thomas Thomas and Alexander Campbell's baptism in their salvation because they didn't know the proper.

Like understanding of baptism. That they know that what they teach today, right? That's what they teach today, right?

You have to be baptized with the the knowledge and understanding that it's washing away your sin. Actually 216, right? Yeah.

Yeah, and so see where restorationists had once cried come and search for with us. A smaller number began insisting Accept our position or worship an error as this smaller conservative faction moved into the 20th century.

It became even more exclusive and sectarian boldly proclaiming accept our position or be lost. And so when you study the history and the germ of just the seed planted with Alexander Thomas Campbell, right?

Thomas and then Alexander. And as it grows and grows it gets more legalistic when you get in the 60s and 70s. It becomes what a lot of people think of the Church of Christ today of just this stringent deal.

So, let's just go back to the video and let's just watch this.

Baptism, Justification, and Acts 2:38

And you guys say that what you don't want to do with the Bible say it. You want to put twist on it like first Peter 321. Listen to this guy? He's talking about the water. Is the judgment on the eight souls that were saved.

No. They were saved by water. And he puts a twist on Peter what he's saying when it says baptism saves us.

So yeah, he would say that Jesus. I would think either. I would say Travis. Does Jesus Savior. Does water baptism because the verse says baptism saves you. But the wrath was not just poured on the people in the ark.

The wrath was poured on the world. But they were saved from the wrath of God because they were in the ark. Just like when we're in Christ, right? You want to say anything to that?

Well, you clarify just and I'll encourage people go back. I called in true for proof me and Travis actually had a good Back and forth on there right after a firework show if I recall somebody else called in for me.

I have no idea who that would have been.

People got to go back and watch it it was excellent. But yeah, well he's misrepresenting me here. I never said that the water was an instrument of judgment on the eight souls now. It was on it was on the world.

I mean go back and read Genesis 6 and see how that that whole thing transpired. But yeah The ark saved them and what he's doing there is he's appealing to the King James version that says eight souls were saved By water and all I said was that translation is not as precise as all the other word.

For what? Translations bring out because it says that they were brought safely Through water. Okay. Well that Changes the whole dynamic of the passage and all I said on his channel was when we read water Saved these eight souls saved by water.