Matt Slick bible study on eternal security

All right, we're live. Okay, it is 7 .31.

We're gonna start, we're gonna do eternal security tonight for those of you online who are watching. Got a few people here as well.

And I'm gonna go over some theology, not just you can even lose it, but some theology that gives the basis for that position.

And before we do that, I'd like to pray. And those of you who like my shirt can comment about it, truth, the new hate speech.

And we're gonna get some, I gotta get a T -shirt company going. A lot of sayings

I've been saving up. To calm or not to calm, that is the question. You know, stuff like that.

All right, let's pray. Lord Jesus, thank you for your word.

And I ask Lord that you would bless it as we go through issues of scripture and we go through what you have done and accomplished for us,

Lord, that we recognize that we are secure in your work, not in our goodness. And I ask Lord for your mercy on us and for those who would hear and those who would listen.

And may you be glorified in our words. We ask this Jesus, your precious name, amen. All right.

So, all right, eternal security.

So the issue is, can we lose our salvation or not? Are we secure in Christ? Coincidentally, today on the radio, a guy came on the radio.

So you heard it, did you hear it today, Nick? Didn't hear the show, but you did. Did anybody else?

This guy calls up towards the end of the show and he started explaining how we can lose our salvation.

And it's not very often that I'll ask this kind of a question and get such a blatant answer of, you know, well, if you can lose your salvation, what do you gotta do to keep it?

And he said, keep the 11 commandments, that the first 10, the next is 20, and the commandment, love your neighbors yourself.

So there's 11 commandments you gotta keep. And I said, well, okay. And are you doing that?

And he said, well, yes. And I said, are you doing it on the level of Jesus? And he was interrupting all the time, you know?

And so he says, well, yeah. He said, I assume, I think I wrote it down in my notes.

I assume he is, that's what he says. And I, you know, essentially I called him a false convert and arrogant and a fool.

And the reason I called him a fool is because of Galatians 3, one through three. You foolish

Galatians, who has bewitched you to think that that which is begun by the spirit can be perfected by the flesh. And so this is what the

Bible says to those who think that you can earn your, basically keep your righteousness by your goodness.

And I said, I'm just sorry, but I have to tell you, you're a fool for that, and you're a false convert. And then I quoted some other stuff.

And the guy was not real coherent in a lot of the things that he was saying, but nevertheless, it's a real issue.

And I'm trying to set up a debate with some oneness people. One is Pentecostal, who denied the

Trinity, of course. And it'll probably happen in a week or two. And in that thread on Facebook, I was told that I hold to the damnable teaching, damnable, that, okay, the damnable teaching of eternal security.

And so I asked him, I said, well, what in scripture means it's damnable if you think that you're eternally secure in Jesus and what he's done?

And there's a lot of people out there, this is the thing, there's a lot of people out there who are incredibly ignorant theologically, and in their absolute foolishness, they pronounce judgment on others, and they have no business talking theology and probably neither driving or voting because they don't have all their paws in the litter box.

Nevertheless, having said that, what we're gonna do now is go through some scripture and lay some stuff down theologically.

More and more as I teach, I want to get into the issue of using

God as a standard of righteousness and truth. And so God is a

Trinity. There's only one God in all existence, all place, all time, that is the true and living God. And he is a

Trinity, one God in three distinct simultaneous persons. Now, the reason this is important in this issue of eternal security is because in Hebrews 13, 20, it talks about the blood of the eternal covenant.

The eternal covenant, I believe, is the inter -Trinitarian relationship covenant where God covenanted within the members of the

Trinity to redeem mankind. And where the father would send the son, the son would redeem, and the

Holy Spirit would apply their ineptive work. So those are the basic, very basic aspects. But one of the things that's necessary for us to understand is that in the inter -Trinitarian communion, which is by necessity eternal, and since God knows all things, it must be the case that he knows who will be saved.

Now, some people at this point will deviate and say the reason that God knows who will be saved is because he knows that people have their free will and can just choose

God or not. It's up to them. And of course, the scriptures don't teach that. But if I do tackle that issue with people,

I'll ask them, well, why does Bob believe and Frank does not? Well, their free will. Well, what about, why is it Bob's free will enables him and Frank's free will does not?

Because that's his free will. And they can't answer the question. Now, of course, we would say that God grants that people believe.

Philippians 1, 29, he grants a repentance, 2 Timothy 2, 25. So we're aware of the fact that God is the one who's a sovereign king over all areas.

He's a Lord of all, not just a Lord of some. But nevertheless, think about this.

If God is eternal, and if God knows all things, 1

John 3, 20, he knows all things, then anything that comes into existence exists because God has ordained that it come into existence.

Now, the Bible says in Ephesians 1, 11, that God works all things after the counsel of his will. This means evil as well as good, that all of them are worked according to his will.

Those have the decretive will, the prescriptive will, the permissive will, the decretive will of God is that God decrees certain things to exist.

Let there be light, there's light. The prescriptive will, don't lie, and the permissive will, he lets you lie.

So the will of God is such that it encompasses all of creation in good and bad.

Nothing can occur with just the will of God. I gotta make sure that people who are my critics don't take this out of context.

God does not desire that people sin in that he gives a prescriptive will, but it is his desire to let them sin.

They will be allowed to sin by God because it's his will to allow them to sin because they do have freedom.

And so he chooses to allow them, so it's in the will of God to allow them to sin in what we call the permissive sense.

All right, when it comes down to people being saved, we know that nobody could be saved without the blood of Christ being shed because he bore sin in his body on the cross, 1

Peter 2, 24, he became sin on our behalf, 2 Corinthians 5, 21. So we know that God from all eternity who's proclaimed and ordained what service will come to pass,

Ephesians 1, 11, has ordained that people will be saved. Now, people cannot of their own free will in their sinful state come to Christ.

The reason they can't come to Christ is because the Bible says such things as the unbeliever is a slave of sin,

Romans 6, 14 through 20. He's a hater of God who does no good, Romans 3, 10, 11, and 12.

Doesn't even seek for God. He is dead in his sins, Ephesians 2, 1. He's by nature a child of wrath,

Ephesians 2, 3. He cannot receive spiritual things, 1 Corinthians 2, 14. His hearts desperately wicked deceitful cannot be trusted,

Isaiah 64, 6, which one of the righteous deeds, that's it.

17, nine, thank you. Ooh, look at that, that's right. 64, six is our righteous deeds are filthy rags.

And Jeremiah 17, nine, the hearts desperately wicked deceitful, no man can trust it. So if the

Bible says that the unbeliever is a hater of God, doesn't seek for God, can do no good, cannot receive spiritual things, is full of wickedness, dead in his sins, by nature a child of wrath, then he cannot of his own sinfully enslaved free will choose

God. Now, why is this all important to eternal security? And I'll explain later. Laying the foundation down.

So because those sets of verses are true, we have verses that say that, for example, in Acts 13, 48, as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

So they were appointed, the word in Greek is taso, which means to put into place, the way a general would put into place certain armies in certain locations it's placed.

So as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed. Now we believe because God grants that we believe,

Philippians 1, 29, and we're born again, not of our own will, John 1, 13, we're caused to be born again, 1

Peter 1, 3. So Jesus also says, you cannot come to me unless the father draws you, John 6, 44, and you cannot come to me unless it's been granted to you from the father,

John 6, 65. So the reason I'm bringing all this up is that if it's true, and it is biblically,

I gave the references. If it's true that an individual can, a sinner, enslaved to sin cannot of his own free will come to Christ, God must be the one who interacts with that person individually.

Now, some people say, no, God never does that. Yes, he does. Go to Acts 9, 15. Paul the apostle is called a chosen vessel by Jesus, the individual chosen vessel to be an instrument for God's glory and his purpose.

And there's other verses I don't have memorized, but they're there. So God chooses individuals.

We can go to Romans 9, about that, 9, 2, 23, but we won't right now. So in the inter -Trinitarian communion, all of this is known where the

Trinity knows and acknowledges the fact and the truth that nobody will ever of their own free will come to Christ because they're enslaved to sin.

Haters of God can do no good, don't seek for God, et cetera, which means God has to elect them into salvation.

He's got to predestine them. As I already said, Acts 13, 48, as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

Now, before we get a little bit further, I'm gonna say God is not a respecter of persons. That's Romans 2, 11, and also

James 2, 2 -4. But the way the Bible says that is God is not a respecter of persons in that he does not look into a person to see if there's a good quality in a person, and then he chooses that person for salvation because under a certain circumstance, they'll believe.

That's not it. God does not look into the future. He does not acknowledge that there's anything good in us by which we then deserve election or predestination.

As I like to say, and sometimes frequently will repeat, I'm glad that God predestined me from the foundation of the world because if he'd look at me now, he wouldn't pick me.

Because we know what we are even as sinners, even as saved, and God is the one who elected us and chose us.

We'll go to Ephesians here in a little bit and talk about that. But here's the thing. God is the supreme king.

In the inter -trinitarian communion where God knows all things, he ordains all things, either by decree, by permission, by prescription or permission in his will and morality and things like that, even the salvation of individuals is also prescribed by God and ordained by God.

It cannot be any other way, and it certainly cannot be the case that God looks into the future to see who'll pick him because that means

God learns, and that's heresy. It does not mean that God says that under certain conditions certain people will pick me so I'll pick those people who'll pick me.

That's showing favoritism. That's not how it works biblically. And a lot of people have humanistic theological perspectives thinking that they are themselves good enough, that they in their wisdom have chosen

God, God reacts to their choosing and then regenerates them upon their belief. So that God is necessarily reactionary based upon the freewill choices of the individual who's a slave of sin, hater of God, does no good, doesn't seek for God.

So the unbeliever and sometimes believers who would say that God looks into the future or that God will see what condition they will have, they are speaking false doctrine.

It doesn't mean they're not saved, they just don't know their biblical theology. Now, if the Trinity is true, and it is, sorry, one is

Pentecostal heretics, but if the Trinity is true, the inter -Trinitarian communion is that God the

Father sends the Son to do what? To redeem. Now, if you go to Ephesians 1, 4, it says just as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world.

In him is a term of federal headship. Federal headship is the teaching that the male represents the descendants, not the female.

Adam and Eve were in the garden, she sinned first, but sin entered the world through Adam, Romans 5, 12.

You can go to Hebrews 7, 7 through 10, where Levi in the loins of his great -great -great -great grandfather

Abraham paid tithes to Melchizedek because Abraham paid tithes to Melchizedek.

So Abraham represented his descendants, Adam represented his descendants, just as it says in Romans 5, 19, that through the one trespass, the many were made sinners.

They were made sinners. Now, when it says they were made sinners, it's an

Aorist, it's an Aorist indicative, which means that, there's an

Aorist, excuse me, an Aorist passive indicative, which means that the action of being made sinners occurred upon them and to them by the action of somebody else.

That's what it means. Aorist means past tense, passive means they received the action, indicative, it's a fact.

And so they, the many were made sinners by the fall of Adam. It's an Aorist active,

Aorist passive indicative, or was it were made? Yeah, that's right. Now, what's interesting is if you go to Philippians 1, 29, it says that we were, for you it has been granted to believe, has been granted is also the

Aorist passive indicative. It's the same construction, which means that just as Adam made us sinners,

God makes us believers. Now, if people wanna argue with me theologically on that, go tackle the

Greek, come back to me later. But what the Bible is saying is that in him, Jesus, we were chosen.

Because the Bible says, just as he, the father, chose us in him. So he, the father, chose us, chose the elect in Christ.

Now, here's what's interesting. The choosing and in him are necessarily logically simultaneous.

You cannot have any choosing for salvation apart from federal headship and the guarantee of the atoning sacrifice.

There is no condition in which the atoning sacrifice could not occur. It's impossible.

God ordained that it will occur by his direct inviolate decree.

Ephesians 1, 4, it's a great verse. He, the father, chose us in him.

He chose us, the father chose us, the elect, in Christ. That means we were in Christ to be chosen.

It's all simultaneous. Him, the choosing, in Jesus, all of it comes together.

Ephesians 1, 4. So God, you know, some people will say, well, no, he looked in the future. He chose us by looking in the future to see what will happen or knowing which people will pick him under certain conditions, and that's how it works.

That's called temporal priority. Well, we don't affirm that, we affirm logical priority. And it cannot be temporally prior with God because all knowledge with God is simultaneous and eternal.

So it logically must be the case that all of it is known simultaneously and God chose us in him, in the election and the eternal knowledge in Christ and federal headship all simultaneously from eternity ago.

This is how it works. When you understand the doctrine of the Trinity and you understand the presence, the power, the vastness of his essence, there's against him, nothing can be compared.

There's nothing external to him by which he can compare it. He's self -revealed. And in his self -revelation of the scriptures, we find out that he is the one who has ordained whatsoever shall come to pass,

Ephesians 1 .11. Now, all this is background for eternal security.

Will God, the father who gives us to the son for redemptive work, is he going to know that Bob at the age of 30 is gonna become a believer and fall away at the age of 50 and goes to hell?

You're gonna lose your salvation. So how then is it from eternity God chose us in him?

God chose Bob in Christ and then predestined him because it says, just as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world that we would be holy and blameless.

Before him, in love, he predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ himself according to the kind intention of his will.

So they'd be saying, well, what happened was God chose us, the elect, in Jesus, but they can't say by his foreknowledge because they wanna go to Romans 8, 29.

We can go to that later. Those of you foreknow, we also predestined. They don't know what they're talking about there when they say that's foreknowledge in a sense of looking in the future.

But nevertheless, if they're gonna say that God, what he has done is he has known people that he knows are going to choose him, that he chooses them in Christ and yet they're gonna be fallen.

How then can he choose them in Christ? From eternity ago, knowing that they're going to hell.

Furthermore, how can he atone for them? We're gonna get into the nature of the extent of the atonement. Now, so there's some problems here.

And when we get to the nature of are we secure in Christ, we have to understand the

Trinitarian foundation and the eternal covenant of God is the foundation by which God the father has chosen whom he will for salvation.

Now, if any of you are listening to me and don't like that, well, that's your problem, not mine. You can go to Ephesians chapter one, verses one through 11.

You can go to, let's see what other verses for choosing. They go to Acts 13, 48.

He chose us as many as had been appointed eternal life. Now, generally what

I'll do at this point is go to John 6, 37 through 40. And that's what we're gonna do now.

But before we do that, I wanna ask a question. And the answer is found in John 8, 29. Does Jesus always do the will of the father?

And Jesus says in John 8, 29, he always does the will of the father.

Jesus cannot fail to do the will of the father. Jesus always does the will of the father.

This is important. If Jesus always does the will of the father, then we have to understand something.

When we go to John 6, 37, 40, Jesus says, all that the father gives me will come to me.

And notice Ephesians 1, 4, he chose us in him. He, the father, chose us, the elect, in Christ.

And this is what Jesus says, all that the father gives me will come to me. It does not say all who come to me, the father will give to me.

All who of their own free will just decide to come to God in their sinfully enslaved situation, they're gonna come to me, and then the father's gonna grant that they come to me and he'd give them to the son.

That's humanistic philosophy. It has no place in the Christian church. All that the father gives me will come to me.

So there's a group called the all, given by the father to the son. And the one who comes to me,

I will certainly not cast out. Now, I know that some people might be listening to this and say something to the effect of, oh, but they can cast themselves out.

We're gonna get through that, okay? You can lose yourself. The thing people will do to rest the scriptures.

All that the father gives me will come to me and the one who comes to me, I will certainly not cast out for I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me.

So he's come down to do the will of the father. This is the will of him who sent me.

That all he's given me, I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. What's the will of the father? That Jesus lose none.

Does Jesus ever fail to do the will of the father? No. Can Jesus lose any?

No. If anybody wants to say, and hear me out, if any of you out there wanna say that Jesus failed to elect or failed to redeem the ones given him by the father, you are in sin and rebellion against the very words of Christ, you need to repent, because the

Bible clearly says that Jesus says, this is the will of him who sent me, that all that he's given me,

I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. And then he says in verse 44, this is the will of my father, that everyone who beholds the son and believes on him will have eternal life, and I myself will raise him up on the last day.

Now, I want you to notice something, because we're gonna go with some other verses here in a bit. Notice what it says in verse 40.

It says eternal life, right? Now, notice what it says in verse 39.

Lose nothing. It's gonna take off? Sinuses are really getting, it's ringing outside. Okay. Go outside for a minute?

Okay. It's all right. Okay. Okay, go to help him out.

Okay. And so it says here, what I want you to notice is a pattern. In verse 39, to lose nothing is equivalent to never perish.

An eternal life, in verse 40. Now, the reason I'm bringing this up is, what does it say in John 3, 16?

It says, God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whoever would believe in him would never perish, but have everlasting life.

Jesus equates never perishing and eternal life. If he does it in John 3, 16, he does it in John 6, 39 and 40.

It will lose none, but have eternal life. It's never perishing. Also, if you go to John 10, 27, 28, he says, my sheep hear my voice and I know them and they follow me.

I give eternal life to them and they will never perish. So notice how Jesus is saying, eternal life, never perishing.

This is how Jesus says, I will give eternal life to the sheep, they'll never perish. But what people are gonna say, no, once saved, always saved is it's a license to sin and you can go to hell for that.

They have no clue what they're talking about. And we'll get to some of these counter verses later in Hebrews and all this stuff and 2

Peter 2 and all that, we'll get to that. So, I want you to just notice that Jesus often equates never perishing with eternal life.

This is the words of Jesus. And people will say, yeah, they can perish. They can perish, right? But why?

Because what they will do is they'll reject Jesus. So, and they go back to John 6, 37 through 40, what's happening is they are the ones who are losing themselves because Jesus says, this is the will of my father,

John 6, 37, John 6, 40. This is the will of my father that everyone who beholds a son and believes in him will have eternal life.

I myself will raise him up on the last day. Sorry, I wasn't meant to go 39. This is the will of him who sent me that all that he's given me,

I lose nothing but raise it up on the last day. So, they'll say that the will of the father is that Jesus lose none, but you can lose yourself.

Now, what I want people, oh, they say that. Yeah, they do. It's like, what? What I want them, those kind of critics,

I want you to understand something. Notice who this is about. It's not about the elect.

It's about the father and the son. All that the father gives me will come to me.

And the one who comes to me, I certainly will not cast out. Now, the elect are certainly talked about there, right?

For I have come down from heaven not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me. This is the issue. The will is that the father, the will of the father is that Jesus lose none.

The will of the father is that Jesus lose none. This is the will of him who sent me that all he's given me,

I lose nothing, but raise him up on the last day. For this is the will of my father, that everyone who beholds the son and believes in him will have eternal life, but I myself will raise him up on the last day.

So if they're gonna say that you can lose yourself, this is not what this is about.

It's about the condition between the father and the son. The will of the father is that Jesus lose none, period.

And also notice this, because it says the will of him who sent me in verse 39, this is the will of my father in verse 40.

The will of him who sent me, verse 39, the will of my father, okay? So think of a sandwich, A, B, C, A, B, C.

So A in 39 and 40, this is the will of him who sent me, verse 40, this is the will of my father, okay?

39B, all right? That all he's given me, I lose nothing. And 40B, that everyone who beholds the son and believes in him will have eternal life, right?

And so back to 39, that I'll lose nothing, okay? And then 39C, but raise it up on the last day, and 40C,

I myself will raise him up on the last day. So what's interesting is that 39 and 40 are similar, very similar, that it says, this is the will of God, verse 39 and 40, in part

A, skip part B for a second, go to part C, and you'll see that what happens in part C is that they'll raise him up on the last day.

The will of the father is this, that him who sent me, that all he's given me,

I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. The will of the father, Jesus raised him up, that's the glorified, resurrected body.

That's what's going on, and whoever beholds and believes in the son will have eternal life, and I'll raise him up on the last day.

If you can lose your salvation, that means then that you were saved, that means you looked on the son, you beheld the son, and you believed the will of the father is that those who do that will be raised up by Jesus.

It's not an issue of the individual saying, I'm gonna lose myself, no, it's the issue of the father saying to the son, you're gonna raise him up, because he's given to the son the group called the all, all that the father gives me will come to me.

And the one who comes to me, I certainly will not cast out, for I've come down from heaven not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me.

This is the will of him who sent me, that all that he's given me, I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.

For this is the will of my father, that everyone who beholds the son and believes in him will have eternal life, and I myself will raise him up on the last day.

So the will of the father is that everyone who has believed will be resurrected by Christ on that last day. They're gonna say that Jesus is failing to do the will of the father, and they won't be resurrected on that day.

They're accusing Jesus of sin when they say we can lose our salvation. Blame, it's right there.

Now, we haven't even gotten to the nature and extent of the atonement to discuss this issue more, and we will a little bit, all right?

So, Jesus, or God says in Hebrews 13, five through six, make sure that your character is free from the love of money, being content with what you have, for he himself has said,

I will never desert you, nor will I ever forsake you. So that we, excuse me, confidently say, the

Lord is my helper, I will not be afraid. What will man do to me? Now, God says he will never forsake us.

He'll never leave us. Now, think about this. If an unbeliever becomes born again, then he's regenerated by God, correct?

If he becomes an unbeliever, does God actively unregenerate him? God's the one who causes us to be born again, 1

Peter 1, 3, but they would have to say that God would have to cause us to become unborn again. That's what they'd have to say.

Nothing in scripture says that, but it does say that he will never leave us or forsake us. Hebrews 13, five through six, or two, five, actually.

He will never leave us or forsake us. That's what it says. Now, I know that might be critics out there, but bear with me, we're gonna get to the other verses, but I have to go to the atoning work.

In 1 John 2, 19, it says, they went out from us, but they were not really of us. For if they had been of us, they would have remained.

But they went out in order that it might be shown that they're not all of us. Some people say, well, wait a minute, that's about the antichrists.

Talking about the antichrists, it is. The context is about antichrists and false teachers. Well, they went out from us, the false teachers.

But they were not really of us, were they? For if they had been of us, they would have remained. They were shown to be false teachers.

That's why they left. If they were true, and true, they weren't just antichrists, but true people, they would have remained.

It's simple. This is what is being taught. So, drink of water, and we're gonna go into the nature and extent of the atonement.

I want people to know, from the beginning, I hold to limited atonement. And I'm going to use it in order to demonstrate the truth of eternal security.

Because of the nature of sin, and the nature of the atoning work of Christ, and the extent of the atoning work, it's not possible to lose one's salvation.

So, sin is breaking the law of God. First John 3, four.

Sin is lawlessness. Jesus says, our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name, thy kingdom come.

In Matthew 6, 12, he says, forgive us our debts, as we forgive those who are indebted to against us.

And in Luke 11, four, the parallel, he says, forgive us our sins.

Our Father who art in heaven, forgive us our sins. Jesus is equating sin with legal debt. Why is this important?

Because that's how Jesus was able to bear our sin in his body on the cross, 1 Peter 2, 24. Because our sin was imputed to him, he became sin on our behalf, 2

Corinthians 5, 21. Now, if you go to Colossians 2, 13, it says that he has forgiven us all our transgressions.

Verse 14 says, having canceled out the certificate of debt, consisting of decrees, which was hostile to us, he took it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

Now, sin is breaking of the law, so sin is a legal debt.

Colossians 2, 14 says the certificate of debt in the NASB. Some versions will say, blotting out the handwriting of ordinances.

But the Greek word is kairagraphon, care, hand, graphe, writing. It's a hapex legomena, which means it's a word that is used only once in a whole body of text.

That word occurs only once right there in the entire Bible, Colossians 2, 14. It's used in other

Greek writings at the time, and it means a handwritten IOU of legal indebtedness.

An IOU, legal debt. So, tax bills were legal debts, and they've discovered some ancient tax bills written, handwritten with a different handwriting style, with the word in Greek, tetelestai, which is, it is finished.

It's legally paid in full. Jesus said on the cross, John 19, 30, it is finished.

If he's God in flesh, John 1, 1, verse 14, Colossians 2, 9,

Philippians 2, 5 through 8, he's God in flesh, and if he bore our sin in his body on the cross, 1

Peter 2, 24, it's because he had to be a kinsman redeemer, that's another topic, Hebrews 2, 17, and Ruth.

But at any rate, he bore our sin, that means our sin was reckoned to his account. If our sin was reckoned to his account, then the wages in his death,

Romans 6, 23, and he died on the cross, then what he did was he paid the requirement, the punishment of the law, death, and he died, and therefore the sin debt is paid for.

Now, I very firmly hold to the position of limited atonement that Jesus did not bear the sin of every individual who ever lived.

In 1 Samuel 3, 14, for example, God says, I've sworn to the house of Eli that the iniquities of Eli's house shall not be atoned for by sacrifice or offering forever.

Blasphemy in the Holy Spirit is not forgiven either, neither in this age or the age to come, just read Matthew chapter 12, verses 22 to 32.

So we know that not all sin is borne by Christ in his body, and it cannot be that he bore the sin of everybody who ever lived.

Now, some say, well, he's a propitiation for our sins, but not only ours, but the sins of the whole world, 1 John 2, 2.

Well, Jesus was sent covenantally not to the whole world, but only to Israel, and that's

Matthew 15, 24, where he says, I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

He was not sent to the world, but because Israel rejected the

Messiah, we, the Gentiles, were grafted in. This is prophesied in Genesis 12, 3, when

God said to Abraham, in you, all the nations shall be blessed, and Genesis 12, 3 is quoted by Paul in Galatians 3, 8, saying, this is the gospel.

So the Gentiles were planned because God knew that Israel was gonna break that covenant, and they broke the covenant because Jesus was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel, Matthew 15, 24.

They broke the covenant, we, the Gentiles, were grafted in. So that's when it says he's a propitiation not only for our sins, but the sins of the whole world.

It means all the nations, all the groups. Some people think the word world means every individual. It does not say that, okay?

It says the world, and that's what you gotta understand covenantally. A lot of people reject this, but I say don't reject it because that's what the scriptures teach.

Don't put your agenda before the scriptures. Now, the word propitiation in Greek is holosmos, and what that means is the sacrifice that removes wrath.

It does not mean that it makes the removal of the wrath potential. It's done.

A propitiatory sacrifice actually removes the wrath that is due to someone. This is what would happen in Yom Kippur.

The high priest in Israel would go in behind the temple veil and go into the

Holy of Holies, sprinkle blood on the mercy seat, and leave. And the sins against Israel were propitiated.

They were removed. If he's the propitiation for our sins, but not only our sins, but the whole world, if the word world means every individual, then everybody has to go to heaven.

Since we know from Mark 3, 29, Matthew 25, 46, Revelation 14, 11, and 2010, we know that people go to hell, that it cannot be that he propitiated the sins of every individual who ever lived because propitiation means to turn away the wrath, not to mention 1

Samuel 3, 14, the house of Eli's sins of Eli's house will never be atoned for, which is a propitiatory sacrifice.

Furthermore, when you go back to Colossians 2, 14, it says that he canceled the certificate of debt.

Now, there's only two possible things that this can mean, real possible things. A couple of people offered some other things, but there's really a stretch.

It's either the sin debt or the law that's canceled at the cross.

If the law is canceled at the cross, there's a problem because Romans 5, 13 says, if there is no law, there is no sin.

So if the law is canceled, then nobody can sin anymore and nobody can go to hell because that means there's no sin to be held against anybody by that.

So that doesn't work. So there's a certificate of debt. Now, Jesus, remember Matthew 6, 12,

Luke 11, 4 said, he equates sin with legal debt. Sin is hamartia, debt is ophilema.

And he used those in Matthew 6, 12 and Luke 11, 4 to reverse them for that order of, actually,

Matthew 6, 12, it's ophilema, debt, and in Luke 11, 4, sin, which is hamartia, but also ophilema over there too, but that's, okay.

And so what he did was Jesus canceled the certificate of debt at the cross. Now, this is important to eternal security as well as limited atonement because they go together.

If Jesus only bore the sins of the elect, the ones given to him by the Father, John 6, 37 to 40, and they're gonna have eternal life and they'll never perish.

John 3, 16, they'll have eternal life and he will lose none. John 6, 39,

John 10, 28, I'll give eternal life to them, they'll never perish. This is how Jesus speaks of this whole thing.

If Jesus actually propitiated that their sins, which means to remove the wrath, and he canceled the certificate of debt, the sin debt, then it's logically necessary that if your sin debt's canceled at the cross, you can't be held responsible for that sin debt, it's gone.

Well, some people will say, no, Jesus only canceled the sin debt up to the point of your believing, which is stupidity, flat out.

Because that would mean then that his sacrifice was offered once for all, right?

Just once for all, I forgot the verse for that. And once for all, well, then if that's the case, then you have to atone for your own sins because if you only atone for your sins up to the point of your believing, you're responsible for the rest and you're in trouble.

It can't happen. So the foolish people will say that Jesus' atonement was only covering up to the point when you believe and it's up to you to confess your sins and get them repeatedly atoned for, which makes no logistical sense.

Now, if Jesus canceled the certificate of debt at the cross, we have

Bob who gets saved at 30 and falls away and at 50, he goes to hell. Did God or did

Jesus pay for all of his sins? If he paid for all of his sins, then that would have to include the post -deconversion sins.

If that's the case, then those sins are paid for. How could he go to hell? Doesn't make sense. Well, they have to say, well, he didn't pay for those sins then.

Well, then not all of his sins are paid for. How could you be saved without all your sins being paid for?

Then they're gonna have to say, well, he only paid for up to that point and then we're back to the same problem again. So people, when they deny the truth of God's word because they're often following the blonde haired, blue -eyed

Caucasian surfer Jesus dressed in a woman's nightgown who's standing at the door of your heart begging for you in your wisdom to let him in.

Cause I got blonde hair, blue eyes, perfect complexion. Look at me. Can I come in? And that's the

Jesus that they like because they want him submissive to their own will. That's what happens in the nature of man.

If Jesus canceled the sin debt, then he did it at the cross. Now people will say, well, then that means you're born saved.

No, it does not mean that. Because the sin debt's canceled at the cross 2000 years ago, but you weren't even born.

So you could not be born saved because the wrath of God was abiding on you until you were justified.

It's called the now and the not yet in theology. I've already gone over this here before. Where Jesus atoned for people and he's gonna resurrect them and glorify them.

John, I mean, Romans 8, 29 and 30. And yet they're not even saved yet.

The now and the not yet. So he atoned for their sins, their sin debts removed at the cross and they're justified when they believe.

Romans 3, 28, Romans 4, 5, Romans 5, 1, Galatians 2, 16, 2, 21, talks about justification by faith.

So when we look at all this, we realize that Jesus was given a group by the father,

John 6, 37. The ones who were chosen in him before the foundation of the world,

Ephesians 1, 4. Jesus said, he came and in John 10,

I lay my life down for the sheep. I think it's John 10, 10, but I'm not sure. No, that's a deceiver.

And he says, and you're not of my sheep. So logically, if he lays his life down for the sheep, he says, you're not my sheep, he's not laying his life down for them.

That's limited atonement spoken of by Jesus right there. Now, if he canceled the sin debt at the cross, it cannot be that anyone would go to hell because once a sin debt's canceled, it doesn't exist anymore.

If it doesn't exist anymore, then you can't lose your salvation. Along with salvation comes regeneration.

Unfortunately, those who teach, oh, this is a license to sin. Well, in that case, what

I'm gonna do is just say, let's go to Romans chapter five at the end of Romans five and read what it says at the end of Romans five.

Verse 20, the law came in so that the transgression would increase, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more.

So that as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our

Lord. Wait a minute, eternal life he's saying. And he's also talking in there about where sin increased in verse 20, grace abounded all the more.

Sin increased, grace all the more, and we have eternal life. Verse, chapter six, what shall we say then?

Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? May it never be.

How shall we who have died to sin still live in it? People say, well, that means what you're saying,

Matt, is it's a license to sin. No, it's not. Paul the apostle is teaching the increase of grace in verse 20, eternal life in verse 21, and then asks the question, well, then, can we sin all we want?

No, of course not. It's the very same thing that people ask, and it's because they don't understand this thing called regeneration.

In John 14, 23, Jesus says he and the Father will come and make their abode in us.

John 3, three through eight, we're born again. We're made new creatures. 2 Corinthians 5, 17.

Because we're born again, God's living in us. We're changed.

Now, those who will say that what happens is eternal security people are teaching a license to sin.

They're saying, then, that you can lose your salvation and you keep it by not doing certain sins or any sins, whatever it is, but you're saying it's okay to go out and sin.

You're just gonna sin because now you're saved. Now you can't lose it, so you're gonna go out and sin. They're ignoring the indwelling of God in regeneration.

I believe that the majority of them do this because they don't understand that the salvation of God includes the indwelling of God with a change in our nature.

We're made new creatures, and we don't want to. We war against it, and we don't need to do works to keep our salvation because they're gonna say that means you can do the bad works and still be saved because they're implying we do good works to keep ourselves saved.

They're the ones who inadvertently are teaching works righteousness by saying if you teach you can not lose your salvation and you can go out and sin all you want, which is technically true.

I can sin all I want. I just don't want to sin because I'm regenerate. But they're saying, oh, then you can actually go out and murder and rape and pillage and steal, and you're okay.

That's not what we're saying because 1 John 2, 4 says, if you say you know him and do not keep his commandments, the truth is not in you, and you're a liar.

What he's saying there is that the manifestation of the regenerative work in God will lead to fruit, which in Galatians 5, 22 and 23, the nine fruit that are listed, which is actually one fruit in Greek, karpos, masculine singular in the

Greek, the one fruit is the fruit of the spirit, love, joy, peace, patience, kindness.

This is in the following. This is what lives in us and indwells us. Those who teach that you can lose your salvation and teach that you've got to be good to keep it and teach that you have to, that once they've always saved people are saying, oh, it's a license to sin.

They fail to understand regeneration. It's almost as though because they're not regenerate,

I'm not saying they're not, but it's almost as though they're not regenerate because they think that they've got to be good to keep their salvation.

And if you can say you can lose your salvation, then you can not be good like we are. And that means you can keep it.

Well, we don't teach that. We keep it by our being good. This is the implication and that's a damnable heresy.

I'll get to why it is in a little bit. Now, they can be ignorant about certain things and still be saved and think they understand their salvation.

I get that, that's fine. Okay, now, this is break second or two or five or 10 if my voice is starting to go a little.

Are you following me? You guys following me on this? Everybody? Okay. Okay. Now, okay.

So Jesus has equated eternal life with never perishing. We're elected from the foundation of the world.

They were not from us because they never were of us. If they had been of us, they would have remained. Jesus says the will of the father that he lose none and he can't fail to do the will of the father.

Jesus canceled the certificate of debt, our sin debt at the cross. And as it says right before that in verse 13,

Colossians 14, 13, Colossians 2, 13, Colossians 2, 14, having forgiven of us all our transgressions, having canceled the certificate of debt.

That's what's going on, the sin debt. It's all canceled. Jesus did it all. It's not dependent upon our wisdom, our ability, nor is it dependent upon our ability to keep ourselves saved.

Go to Galatians chapter three. Last one, there's a semi -Pelagian.

All right. Okay, this is what it says.

You foolish Galatians who has bewitched you before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified.

This is the only thing I wanna find out from you. Did you receive the spirit by the works of the law or by hearing with faith?

Are you so foolish? Having begun by the spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?

Now, this is strong language for him. You foolish Galatians.

Jesus says in Matthew 5, 22, don't call anybody fool, but he's in the context, very right.

Matt is not following the text questions at this point. That's right. And so when he says fools, he's being very, very serious.

Jesus said, don't call him fool. He's talking about just irrational judgments. What Paul's doing here, he's saying, look, you'll be perfected by the flesh.

What he's talking about is circumcision because let's go to Galatians 5. One, it was for freedom that Christ set us free.

Therefore, keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery. Behold, I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision,

Christ will be of no benefit to you. And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision that he's under obligation to keep the whole law.

You have been severed from Christ. Notice the pun, circumcision, severed from Christ.

You who are seeking to be justified by law, you've fallen from grace.

Doesn't mean they lost their salvation. We'll talk about that. Notice what he's saying. He's talking to the Judaizers, the

Jews who thought it was a requirement to be circumcised in order to complete the necessity of salvation that was earned by the

Messiah. They're saying, nope, you don't keep any part of the law because in Galatians 3 .10,

he says, for as many as are the works of the law are under a curse for it is written, cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law to perform them.

So you're obligated to keep the whole law and you go to Deuteronomy 27 .26 about that, the standard of perfection.

But what he says here, you're gonna be circumcised. You're gonna do one thing to keep yourself right with God, make it complete.

You've been severed from Christ, you've fallen from grace, not the grace of salvation, but the grace that is given to the

Jews in the Messiah for who and what he has done. And they want to do one little thing and Paul condemns them wholeheartedly.

There are people who will say, I have got to be good to keep myself saved. You get circumcised to keep yourself saved?

But if you do one thing in the law, you're obligated to keep the whole law. Now, I'm gonna read this again.

This is Galatians 5 .3. I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, he's under obligation to keep the whole law.

You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law. Now, wait a minute.

They're believers in Christ, supposedly, but 2 Corinthians 7 .10, they're false believers because there's false repentance.

You've been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law. What does he say is their effort to be justified by law?

This one act of circumcision. But yet, they're the ones who supposedly are professing

Christ. Yet they want to do one thing and Paul equates it with being justified by the law.

Not by law and faith, or faith and law, I should say, but by law, period.

So Paul equates the idea of doing one thing according to the law in order to be saved and remain saved or get saved, anything to do with it, as being justified by law.

That's how Paul says it right there. A lot of people miss this. Now, severed from Christ, the pun, and then he goes on,

I think it's, it's, yeah, that's, it just says what verse that you would mutilate yourselves and you get the idea of what he's saying.

Yeah, verse 12. I wish that those who are troubling you would even mutilate themselves. You know what he's talking about.

Now, wait a minute. Paul, the apostle, is saying that he would rather have the male sex organ be mutilated.

That's not how Christians talk. Yes, it is. That's how serious this is.

Now, on the radio today, this guy said that he keeps the 11 commandments, that the 10 commandments of Exodus 20, and the another commandment, love,

I mean, love their neighbors yourself, or love one another, and he keeps them. So he is a false convert.

He's severed from Christ, and the grace of Christ in that sense. He, if he were to die, would go to hell because he is being justified by law.

He is trying to keep himself right with God by what he does. Now, I don't know about anybody else.

I cannot keep myself right with God for a microsecond. And Dave over here, even less than that.

I've known him a long time. And if our salvation depended on any way on our ability, then we're lost.

But those who, I'm gonna say this boldly and with confidence, those who say that they keep their salvation through their sincerity, their goodness, their stuff, are arrogant fools who think that their salvation depends in part upon their ability.

Sorry, it does not. God grants that we believe, Philippians 1 .29, grants us repentance, 2 Timothy 2 .25,

causes us to be born again, 1 Peter 1 .3. He appoints us to eternal life, Acts 13 .48.

You're born again, not of your own will, John 1 .13. This is the work of God. He's elected us before the foundation of the world.

Ephesians 1 .4, we're given to Christ, Ephesians 1 .4, and John 6 .37, and we're redeemed, and he canceled the sin debt at the cross,

Colossians 2 .14. He canceled the sin debt for the elect. We cannot lose our salvation because that would mean then that what happened is

Jesus failed to do the will of the Father by losing some, and it would also mean that the atoning work wasn't sufficient to guarantee our salvation, that he did not cancel the sin debt for those who were given to him, but that the sin debt was canceled, or as I like to say, just mostly canceled.

Princess Bride, just mostly dead, which is mostly atoned for, mostly canceled, not quite everything.

This is humanistic philosophy to say, I must, in order to, be saved.

I must continue, I must this, I must that, me, me, me.

But what does the scripture say? Jesus came and redeemed. Jesus is the one who loves us. Jesus is the one who is our hope.

God will never leave us. Jesus canceled the certificate of debt. Jesus can never fail to do the will of the Father.

It's in Christ. Now, I'm gonna take a couple of drinks of water here, and we'll go over supposed verses to the contrary.

Now, I know that people are probably thinking, well, wait a minute, man. What about Hebrews 6, 4 -6,

Hebrews 10 -26, 2 Peter 2 -1? Okay, what about those verses?

Let me ask a question though. Are you setting scripture against scripture?

Because that's what happens a lot in these kinds of debates and discussions. People will say, they'll say, look, man, if you're gonna teach eternal security, what about these other verses that say the contrary?

They do? Are you saying the scriptures contradict each other? And they'll say, no, they're contradicting your interpretation of scripture.

Okay, let's go to Colossians 2 -14, and I ask them, sin debt was canceled at the cross, right?

Yes, who's it canceled for? Everybody. Everybody goes to heaven then, right? No, people go to hell.

Well, then how can it be that they go to hell if their sin debt's canceled? Because you have to accept it.

Accepting it or not is irrelevant to whether or not it's canceled. It doesn't become canceled if you accept it.

It's canceled irrespective of whether you accept it or not. That's what it means to be canceled in Jesus at the cross.

How can they go to hell? They're gonna believe. Well, God grants that they believe, Philippians 1 -29. Well, it's up to them, it's up to God.

They don't like this kind of argumentation because they're humanists. They want man -centered theology, not

God -centered theology. All right, let's go to Hebrews. We will start addressing the verses.

Okay, Hebrews 6, four through six.

Now, for in the case of those who've once been enlightened, does it say they were saved?

Doesn't say they're saved. And have tasted of the heavenly gift.

Does tasting the heavenly gift means you're saved, you're regenerated, indwelt, atoned for. And have been made partakers of the

Holy Spirit. Does that mean they're saved? Did Judas partake of the Holy Spirit? Yes, he did.

Was Judas saved? Never was. Because you can go to John 6, 64. God, Jesus says he knew all those who did not believe and those who, in the beginning, and who would betray him.

And Judas is put in the group of those who he was never a believer. Could the

Jews have walked with Jesus and followed him and then rejected him? Could they have tasted the heavenly gift?

Yeah. Made partakers of the Holy Spirit. People say, well, that means you're saved. And I say to them, if it means that to partake of the

Holy Spirit means you're saved, show me that in scripture. There's no verse that says that.

They assume that's what it means. But you can be a partaker of the Holy Spirit in the sense you can see the

Holy Spirit's work and conviction of others and even upon yourself because the

Holy Spirit convicts the world of sin and righteousness and judgment. John 16. I mean, John 16, seven,

I put it forward, right? So that means even unbelievers can be convicted and not be saved.

And there's convictions about the Holy Spirit. And yet they can reject the Holy Spirit. Now, a lot of times the people who say you can lose your salvation also teach that you can get it back.

Because if you lose it by what you do, you can get it back by what you do. If you lose it by not believing, you can get it back by believing.

For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit and have tasted the good word of God and the power of the age to come and then have fallen away, it's impossible to renew them again to repentance.

Now, that would mean from their logic, if they use this pericope of scripture, it would mean then that anybody who loses their salvation could never get it back.

That's what it would have to mean. But I have never heard anybody tell me, in all the years

I've been doing this, you can lose your salvation, and once you lost it, you can never get it back. I've never heard anybody say that. I've heard them say, you can get it back.

You just gotta repent again and you'd get it back. But if they're gonna go to Hebrews 6, 4 through 6, then they're being inconsistent because it says you cannot.

What's it talking about? It's not talking about believers because Jesus said he'll lose none of them.

What he's talking about is the Jews who were there with Christ at the time of Christ, seen the miracles, partaken of the

Holy Spirit's work, been enlightened of the word and rejected the Messiah. That's why it says in Hebrews 10, 26, if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, you're no longer made to sacrifice for sins.

Because I've asked people, you can lose your salvation? Yes. And they said, well, how do you know?

Because Hebrews 10, 26, like I did on the radio today. So I said, so if you go on sinning willfully, have you ever sinned willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth?

Yes. Oh, you're going to hell then. No, it's not true. Well, it says you're no longer made to sacrifice for sin.

No, you have to go on rejecting it. What does it mean?

How long? How many days? How many weeks? How many whatever? You don't know. They just make this up as they go.

They don't understand the book of Hebrews is written to the Hebrews, the covenant people of God who had tasted the heavenly gift, who understood who

Christ was covenantally and rejected him, there's no longer sacrifice for sins. That's all that's going on there.

Second Peter 2 .1. Second Peter 2 .1.

I think they moved Peter in my book here. Okay, where is it going? I'm always using, here,

I'll just go to here. But false prophets also arose among the people just as there will be false teachers among you who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.

People say, see, Matt, look, they were bought by the blood of Christ and they'd lose their salvation.

Look, say, really? False prophets arose among the people. Are false prophets true believers? No. Have they repented of their sin?

No. Now, they're gonna argue universal atonement, but that's, we're getting a little bit past this, but nevertheless.

So they're false prophets, are they saved? No, they're not saved. Who arose among the people just as there will also be false prophets among you.

The false prophets, what you talking about? The people of Israel. That's what the context is.

If you go to first and second Peter, and if you happen to have a Bible that has the Old Testament quotes in capitals, you'll see lots of capitals.

They quote you, there's lots. I wrote an article where I go through them and cited them. And that's just the quotes.

And then there's allusions, which are not direct quotes, but indirect references to things in the

Old Testament. So Peter is writing to the Jews scattered around the area, and he's referring to a lot of Old Testament stuff.

So, but false prophets also arose among the people. He's talking about the Old Testament Israel people.

Just as there'll be also false prophets among you. They weren't saved then, they're not gonna be saved now.

Who will secretly introduce destructive heresies. These are not believers. Even denying the master who bought them.

Now they'll use this for against the limited atonement. I'm just gonna address this about the limited atonement issue. Because this verse can't be used to say you'd lose your salvation.

Because there are false prophets to begin with, false prophets aren't saved. So this verse doesn't work. Nevertheless, since it's referencing the

Old Testament a great deal, Deuteronomy 32, six, do you thus repay the Lord, O foolish and unwise people?

Is not he your father who has bought you? He has made you and established you.

Israel was bought out of slavery by God through the work that he did in Pharaoh and the flood.

I mean, not the flood, but the parting of the Red Sea, all this stuff. And there were false prophets that came, and yet they were bought by God.

But it does not say redeemed and their sins were all forgiven. It's that sense, and this is what I believe, is what the sense that he's talking about.

False prophets also arose among them, denying the Lord who bought them. It's a generic buying that's going on, not an atoning work.

And we won't get into it too much more deeply than that. So that verse cannot be used to justify that you lose your salvation.

So there's other verses people like to use, but I've basically gone over this stuff.

And so we're in due. Just took about a whole hour.

That's good. I'm gonna open up to questions. And I know the people in the chat room are gonna have questions.

And there's 65 people watching. So if you've got any questions on the time, and we can launch into some other stuff.

You guys have any questions? I like how Dave here, when I mentioned Colossians 2 .40, it's like a theological jacuzzi, huh?

He loves Reformed theology. That's right. All right, so let's see what people say.

Can you explain 2 Peter 3 .9? Yes, I can. God is not slow, was it slow or something, in his patience, but wants all people to be saved.

But his patience for you, not wishing that any should perish. But for all.

Not wishing for any repentance. Not wishing for any repentance, but all to come to salvation, right?

So there's two main senses we can understand this. One is that the all is a reference to every individual on the planet.

But he only wills out of them some to come to salvation.

Some people say, well, that's not, it doesn't make sense. Well, yes, it can. Because if he wants all people to be saved, and it means every individual, then why does he speak in parables in Mark 4, 10 through 12, and he tells us,

Jesus says he speaks in parables, so people will not be saved. So there can be a sense in which God can generically want everyone to be saved, and yet not enable everyone to be saved.

That's theologically and logically defensible. Another thing is to say that the all is only in reference to the elect.

Romans 5 .18, it says, through one transgression, there resulted condemnation to all men. So also, through one act of righteousness, there resulted justification of life to all men.

Justification means you're saved. To all men, all can only mean the

Christians. Also, if you were to notice that the

Bible says that only the

Christians have died with Christ. Romans 6 .6, we were crucified with Christ. Romans 6 .8,

we died with Christ. That's not the unbelievers who are crucified with Christ, because all who have been crucified, or those who have died, are free from the law.

That's Romans 7 .4. If we've died to the law, to Christ, then the law has no jurisdiction over us, according to Romans 7 .1

through four. But we've died with Christ. If we've died with Christ, the law cannot be held to our account, and therefore we can have no sin, according to Romans 5 .13.

Because where there is no law, there is no sin. So the all here can only reference the believers, because there are places in the

Bible that say, for example, we have died to sin. We have died with Christ.

We've been crucified to the world, and things like this. That can only be the believers, and ultimately the elect who are manifest as believers.

So in light of that, I ask the question, is there any place where it says unbelievers have died with Christ, died to sin, died to the world, died to themselves?

The answer is no. When you go to 2 Corinthians 5 .14, it says, the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died.

Who's the all who died? The all who died can only be the elect, or those in Christ. He died for all, therefore all died.

That all he died for can only be the limited group. So when it says 2 Peter 3 .9, for all to come to repentance, we can make the case that the all there is the elect.

All that the Father gives me will come to me. That's another thing of the elect. So it's certainly possible that that could be what it is.

And I can get into other areas of discussion of how, I don't have it memorized, how

God can want one thing and arrange another.

How he can say, I want all people to be saved and not arrange it. Or I take no delight in the death of the wicked, but then

I can show you verses where he does. He actually says he does. And so there are conditions in which

God says one thing and does another, but it's not that he's lying or hypocritical, it's that there's the concept, and I've read about it and discussed it with some other people, deal with logic.

And yes, there's ways that this can be made to work very easily and be consistent with scripture and answer the difficult questions all at the same time.

It just takes another study. And maybe we could do that sometime. Okay, hope that answers. James 5 .19

is the same discussion as Hebrews 6, right? I don't know. Don't know where James 5 .19 is. Look it up.

Normally I do it with my phone, which is so fast, or my computer right there. Now I've got to go to this old -fashioned thing called a

Bible in my hand. I'm used to just doing everything online now.

James, where's James? What's James 5 .19? Put it in there, Hebrews, come on.

Oops, there it is. My brethren, if any of you stray from the truth, and one turns him back.

Yeah. If any of you stray from the truth and one turns him back, he's talking generically to people.

And that's one of the things that a lot of Christians miss is that God will often speak generically to a whole group of people.

Look, repent. Look, do this, do that. If you stray, turn him back. He's talking in a temporal sense in a visible world.

But a lot of times the theological perspective is given from the invisible world. Those whom he foreknew, he also predestined.

Let me go to that verse I just wanted to go to anyway. Romans 8 .29. So I'm gonna go to Romans 8 .29,

because that's an important verse about this stuff. Those whom he foreknew, he also predestined to become conformed to the image of his son so that we would be the firstborn among many brethren.

So that he would be. And those whom he predestined, he also called. And those whom he called, he also justified.

And those whom he justified, he also glorified. Okay, here's a trick question. Does God know everyone?

The answer is no. Get away from me, I never knew you. Matthew 7 .23.

Many will say to men that day, Lord, Lord, they would not prophesy in your name, cast out demons in your name, perform any miracles in your name.

Get away from me, I never knew you. The word to know there is gnosko, I never knew you.

My sheep hear my voice and I know them. Okay, that's John 10 .28. My sheep hear my voice and I know them.

I should put him on camera. So they can see how big he is. We have a 10 month old cat here.

Let's see if you can see him. Yeah, he's huge.

Okay, anyway. So the word no, gnosko designates a saving relationship.

Jesus never says, I know you to an unbeliever, except one place. But he says,

I know you, you're of your father, the devil. And it's not, I know you, and he leaves it.

It's I know you, you're of your father, the devil, and he qualifies it. Because in the inspiration of the truth of God's word, when

God knows you, it means you're saved. In Galatians 4 .8, when you do not know

God, you serve by nature those which are not God. But now that you've come to know God, or rather are known by him, now you come to serve the true and living

God. So the issue is not if you know God, but does he know you? So that's the word gnosko, prognosko, to foreknow.

And notice what it says. Those to me foreknow, foreknew, he also predestined.

They're the same group. The foreknown ones are also the predestined ones to become conformed to the image of his son so that he would be the firstborn among many brethren.

And those to me predestined, remember, the foreknown ones are also the predestined ones. So the foreknown ones are also the predestined, and those to me predestined, he also called.

The foreknown ones are also the called. Those to me called, he also justified. The foreknown ones are also justified.

Those to me justified, he also glorified. The foreknown ones are also glorified. Now, wait a minute.

If they're already glorified, and that's a problem because they're not yet glorified, because according to 1

Corinthians 15, 35 through 45, we have the glorification of the believer in the resurrected glorified body.

But you'll notice what's happening here. It's spoken of as already happening, already happened in the past tense.

Why? What I believe about it is simply this. The guarantee of salvation in Christ is so supreme, so good, so perfect, because God will lose none.

Jesus says he'll lose none, that it can be said we're already glorified. That cannot happen if you're gonna lose your salvation.

Simple, right? Any more questions?

Oh yeah, after Romans 9, people are going over. I can go through Romans 9 too, but that's another thing.

Can God cause a person to believe in him? Yes, Philippians 2, five through eight. He moves the heart of the king where he wishes it to go, and that's

Proverbs 21, one. He grants that we believe, Philippians 1, 29. So you guys down there, you got any questions, let me know.

Online, Proverbs 21, one, that's right. Charlie's sitting there hyping and putting stuff in. And he's doing a good job.

You guys got any questions or anything? Yeah, now you can see how big he is. Wanna see how big he is, let's see.

All right, you look how big he is. Hold on a sec.

Hey, kitty. That was intermission.

All right, so let's see. Question on the screen,

May, Matt. Question on screen. What? Yeah, have this attitude in yourselves which also is in Christ Jesus, who although he existed in the form of God did not regard equality with God.

It came to be grasped, but emptied himself, taking the form of a bondservant. He humbled himself to the point of death, even death on a cross.

Therefore, the name of Jesus is highly exalted, et cetera. What? Causing somebody to believe.

No, that's Philippians 2, that's the kenosis, the emptying. But he causes us, he grants that we believe,

Philippians 129. Now, the grant is the aorist passive indicative, which means he's the one bringing the action to us.

He's a monster cat, that's right. I'll hold him up later, put him on my chest. He's like this big. We call him

Flopper because he's basically a clown car with paws. I've never seen a cat so uncoordinated.

I have a friend that says, unless you repent of your adultery, second marriage, according to her, you cannot be saved.

Can you please share your thoughts on this? Sure, I would like to talk to that person because there's circumstances.

Let's say, let's say this. Let's say a man and a woman are married and they're both unbelievers, and then they get a divorce because they didn't like each other, and that's it.

Not a good grounds for divorce. And then he gets married later to another woman.

Is he committing adultery? Yeah, he technically is. But what do you do now?

He becomes a Christian. Now what? Does he divorce his present wife?

But God doesn't want people to divorce because now that's not a grounds for divorce because the grounds for divorce,

Matthew 8 .32. Nope. Oh, I can't remember.

Got so many verses in my head, I can't remember them all. Adultery and 1

Corinthians 7 .12, I think it is, or 14, is abandonment. So adultery and abandonment.

Well, now what does a Christian do if he has become the Christian, but his first divorce was not biblical?

Is he really divorced? The answer is, yes, he really is. Otherwise, it wouldn't be called a divorce. Now he's married to somebody else.

What we say is, stay with your wife. It's before the Lord. It's all cleansed.

You move forward. Just leave it at that because you can never go back to the first wife because you've been joined to another.

That's it. So yeah, it was sinful, and it's cleansed in the blood of Christ. Now some will say, what if you were a

Christian and you got married and you got divorced for an unbiblical reason? Same situation. Same situation.

All right. I believe, okay. Honestly, Angel, if a Christian says that he maintains salvation by being faithful, he's really saved.

Is he? That's right. He's arrogant. Honestly, Angel, the question Charlie has put up on the screen. Thank you, Charlie.

Once saved, always saved is false. U -P -Z -Y -Y -S. You know, upziz, if you wanna say that once saved, always saved is false, maybe you might wanna use your real name and get some guts and stand up and come up to the mic and have you come in the room.

Oh, Charlie had to come back in now. And you can explain why it's false even after an hour of me going through scriptures.

And upziz, if you wanna say it's false, then we can have questions for you.

Are you keeping your salvation by your goodness? And can you list out what you gotta do to be saved? That'd be good.

That'd be good. All right. Matt Slick, where is Ossoff in history? Oh, in history?

Oh, that's easy. That's easy. It's in Jesus when he was walking and teaching in John six.

It's in the writers of Paul the apostle when he was dealing with the

Galatians church. That's where it is in history. Notice what salvific deputy says. This is, I always get a kick out of people who say,

I wanna see it in history. I'm not interested in the scriptures, the word of God. I wanna see what other people have said.

Show it to me. What does the word of God say? Don't make the mistake of thinking that church fathers have gotten it right from the beginning.

Don't make that mistake. Just because they're early on doesn't mean that they're right. And I'll prove it to you.

Let's go to second Thessalonians two. Second Thessalonians two.

Because Gesundheit over there, don't step in that stuff, it was bad. All right, second

Thessalonians two. Now we request you brethren, with regard to the coming of our

Lord Jesus Christ, verse one, and our gathering together to him that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by spirit or a message or a letter as it from us to the effect of the day of the

Lord has come. Let no one in any way deceive you for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first. And the man of lawlessness has revealed the son of destruction who opposes and exalts himself above every so -called

God or object of worship so that he takes a seat in the temple of God displaying himself as being God.

So Paul is giving an eschatological instruction based upon what he knows and he's giving it to the church.

Notice what he said in verse five. Do you not remember while I was still with you, I was telling you these things?

Wait a minute, you mean that the Thessalonians got it wrong even when

Paul the apostle was right there and he had already told them oral tradition, and they were getting it wrong then?

So here's a question. You turn to the church fathers, that's where they go. The church fathers say this, where's the church fathers?

Well, I can show you church fathers stuff where they contradict each other and themselves. I say, well, if the

Thessalonians were getting it wrong right away, what makes you think all the church fathers got it right?

And how do you know which father's got it right? And doesn't it mean you just pick which church father you like, et cetera, et cetera.

That's all it is. So did the entire church have it wrong, Matt Slick? I don't know.

Did everybody everywhere all the time teach the heresy that you can lose your salvation, you gotta keep it by being good?

I don't know, Salvatore Deputy, is that what you assume? That everybody in all the church history all believed that you could lose your salvation?

And notice, I haven't followed the text. Are they dealing with the text that I said? For example,

John 6, 37 through 40. What does Jesus say? And you'll notice this, I've noticed this.

Whenever I talk to people about this, they don't go to scripture, they go to the church history.

They go to church history because that's where their God is. That's where their truth is. That's the ultimate authority.

The ultimate authority is God himself, and he's revealed his ultimate authority in the word of God.

The word of God is inspired, not church history. The weaklings of theology go to church history.

And if you go to the church fathers and the stuff I have on Topical Index, you will see the church fathers contradict themselves and contradict each other, and they do.

So when they bring that kind of stuff up, I'm like, God, you're boring me. Come on. Are the church fathers your

God, or is the Lord your God? That's exactly right. Can you justify why John is biblical? Yeah, brother.

Hey, Salvific Deputy, can you do me a favor? I got something for you, Salvific Deputy. If you're listening,

I hope you're listening, because this is important, because what I'd like you to do is take your right hand, can you go like this?

Just put it right here, like straight right here. Right like this, just go like this if you can, okay? Go like this, look to your left, then slap yourself beside the head, okay?

Because that would be good for you to do, to knock that out of your brains, okay.

Let's see. And believes in him will have eternal life. That's right, yes. Yes, I am excellent.

Yes, you are what? People write all kinds of stuff in the chat.

Yes, there are people listening. There's like 65 people in there right now.

And I'm saying, okay, well use a complete sentence so I know what you're talking about. You broke my heart,

Salvific Heart. That's a little bit, well, hey dude, Salvific Deputy, why don't you tell us, if you want, you can come in here, and the device is not connected, that's why that changed,

SLC can't get in. You wanna come in and argue with me a little bit? Anybody wanna come in?

Charlie, you can put the URL in, they can come in here, we can get them on the mic, and we can argue with them a little bit, and we'll see if people can argue their position.

Okay? All right, I can do it. Let's see.

Oh, wait a second. Oh, is there an excuse coming up? That's the link, you got it. I have already spoke with you last time you were really toxic.

Well, truth is toxic to people who don't like truth. So, go in,

Salvific. Yeah, come on, you can do it. You can do it. I was like, what movie that was? You can do it.

I don't remember what it was, it was funny. All right. So, change

SLC. You gotta have a microphone or a camera to change SLC to get in. First Corinthians 6 .9,

do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Exactly correct, oops. The unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God.

That's right, these are fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, effeminate, nor homosexuals. Read the whole context.

Is that talking about Christians? People who are redeemed by the blood of Christ and dwelt by God, who are not fornicating, not committing idolatry?

Are you saying then that what we teach is you can actually go out and just do all these things, it's okay and be saved?

That's not what we're teaching. Your ignorance comes before you, it's always the case. Can you disobey

Jesus and still go to heaven? Of course you can. How many of you in the room obey Jesus perfectly?

No hands. How many of you ever disobeyed Jesus? You should raise both yours.

Oh, you did, okay. So yeah, keyboard warrior. Why? I know,

I've known him for longer than you guys have been alive. Probably even combined. Did a

Bible study with your eight -year -old daughter this evening about predestination and election? This is so good right now. Thanking God for you, brother

Matt. Praise God, Nina. Nina Oz. Do you have somebody, you know, named

Wizard? It's horrible.

What? Don't take the bait. Don't take the bait. It's Oz. Oz, I said they have somebody who knows the name

Wizard. It was horrible. They did Happy Gilmore, you can do it. That's right.

I think you're right. Oops, I got that in there. When Jesus says it's finished, was it really finished or was he lying?

Well, I think it was, who said that? Fred Price or was it Copeland who said?

When he said it was finished, we know it was not really finished. Yes, yeah. I would say that Jesus never lied, so when he said it's finished, it's finished.

Matt Slick, I'll come and ask questions about some verses. Okay, come on in and ask questions about some verses.

I may have to turn that mic off, this mic here, and then go into this room here, which is,

I'm on this, on a laptop. Use that, I don't know, we'll figure it out. Enter Luke 8 .13.

Okay, I'll answer, I'll answer it. Luke 8 .13.

I get my Bible, go, here it is. Luke 8 .13.

Wow. It says, those on the rocky soil or those who were here receive the word with joy and they have no firm root, they believe for a while, and in time of temptation they fall away.

Yeah, Jesus is giving parabolic information and the specific scriptures that teach you cannot lose your salvation have to be also harmonized with this.

If you go to 2 Corinthians 7 .10, you can see that there's a false kind of repentance that is spoken of, and that's what's going on.

They believe for a while, it's not true belief. They believe for a little while, and there's different groups of people. That's all it is, okay?

Come on. And I can say to you, answer John 6 .37 -40. Okay, now if you want me to answer, you have to answer something as well.

John 6 .37 -40. All of the Father who gives me will come to me, right?

And all that come to you I certainly will not cast out, for this is the will of my Father who sent me, that all he's given me I lose none, okay?

So let me ask you, Salvific deputy, really quickly, can

Jesus lose any when Jesus says the will of the Father is that he lose none? Can he lose any? That's all.

Answer the question, Salvific. Can you lose, can Jesus lose any if he says the will of the

Father is that Jesus lose none? Well, I don't care what you say about the church

Father. I ask you a question. If Jesus said the will of the

Father is that he lose none, John 6 .39, can he lose any? That's the question.

Let's see if Salvific deputy can answer the question. Come on, answer the question.

I'm wrong because I'm a man? Who said that? Cameron? Cameron, come over here, we're talking about it.

We just drove by Cameron's house last night, as a matter of fact. Salvific deputy says no. Now, wait a minute, notice this.

I asked him to answer. Oh, wait, wait, he did. No, he did do that. So Jesus cannot lose any, good.

So then the church fathers were wrong, weren't they? If they taught you could lose your salvation. Next. I love it when you go to scripture.

It's just, it's just awesome. And my church father could beat up your church father. That's right, what?

Did you cover Ephesians 1 .13 through 14 while we were outside? We went through it, it's one of the greatest things we'd ever said.

You missed it, you were outside, Ephesians 1 .13 through 14. It was awesome. It was, it was just incredible.

Probably won't go the same. In him you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation, having also believed you were sealed in him with the

Holy Spirit of promise, who was given as a pledge of our inheritance with a view to the redemption of God's own possession to the praise of his glory.

You were sealed, can't be, well, that reminds me. Something else.

Thanks for getting my notes here. Better look at something. Yeah, you were sealed in him with the

Holy Spirit of promise, who's given as a pledge. Listen, that's right, you were sealed. It can't be unsealed.

There is something about the Greek in, if I got my notes here. Yes, here we go.

Where is that? There's a reference to, Jesus said in John 6 .35,

I'm the bread of life. He who comes to me will not hunger, and he who believes in me will never thirst.

The Greek is oomei. Oomei is a very, very strong construction in the

Greek, signifying it's not even possible, period. Well, never, not even possible.

That's what it's going. I'm the bread of life. He who comes to me will not hunger, oomei, cannot hunger.

It's not gonna happen. And he who believes in me will never thirst, will never.

Cannot be, cannot thirst again. Cannot happen, John 6 .35, okay?

All right, all right. So for those of you who believe you can lose your salvation, can you please just list out the things you gotta do to keep yourself right with the infinitely holy

God? I'd like you to do that in the text. Those of you who are saying that I'm wrong,

I want you to list out what it is you have to do in order to keep yourself right with the infinitely holy

God. I think that'd be worth it. I wanna see the list. And I'll ask a question probably about some stuff.

But let's see if they are gonna be able to answer the question. What do you have to, what would you guys say?

What do you have to do to keep yourself right with God? Can't do anything.

Can't do anything, that's right. So it's the wrong question. It's the wrong question, that's right.

There's nothing you can do to keep yourself right with God. That's right. For the ladies though, it's making sandwiches, has something to do with that, probably a good thing.

But yeah, work out your salvation with fear and trembling. You need to work it out. That's right, work it out.

It means to manifest a salvation that's already there. It doesn't mean you keep it by what you do. Up Z -Y -Y -S.

Good article on karma if you can lose your salvation, okay. So now we're just beating around the bush here. No one's given you a list yet?

No one's given me a list. I'm asking. Or told you what you have to do yet? I wanna know, what do you gotta do?

In order to, hold on, let me get the microphone up on this person. Let's see if it doesn't echo.

Hello? Yeah, give me a second. You there? Yes. Okay, let me.

I can't hear you anymore. We can't hear you. We can't hear you still.

There's no sound. Okay, now you can hear me.

Wait, speak now? Okay, now it's working, but there's an echo and you have two camera on.

Let's try that. There's even more, it's even worse now.

You were predestined, that was predestined, Matt. Can't do anything about it. Right, if I turn it off, they can't hear me here.

Well, let me check in the stream. There's a big echo now. That's what I just tried to do, it didn't work. Let me try this.

I can't hear you in the stream right now. No, I can't. No, I can't hear you, no, there's no sound.

Now there's two Matt's like, can't hear you.

There you go, now you can. Yeah, oh, there's no echo. Okay, go ahead, what's your question?

Took a bit. Okay, I had some question about some Bible verse. All right.

First one was Galatians chapter five, verses 19 to 22. How do you relate that with one thing?

Okay, yeah, just the workers of iniquity and the false people, workers of the flesh.

Yeah, that's not Christians. Well, but it lists a couple of sin, because if you look at it, he mentioned living by the spirit and living by the flesh.

And in Romans eight, he says, if we live by the flesh, we'll die. I know, if you do, is that what a

Christian does? Live by the flesh? Well, certain Christian can live, yeah.

There's certain Christian that does that, yeah. Are you living by the flesh? I try my best not to.

So you do then, you try your best not to, which means you're not doing it, which means you fail, so you're living by the flesh, right?

I guess so. Okay, you're on your way to hell by your own words. Well, because I've seen like in the scripture, there's kind of two, when you get born again.

Yeah, I'm listening to what you said. You said, do you live by the flesh? I say something and you ignore it.

By your own words, you condemn yourself. Well, doesn't the scripture says we need to embrace to live by the spirit, which would imply that we also walk by the flesh.

I tell you what, tell us all what things you must do to keep yourself right with God.

Well, we're talking about Galatians five, I don't know what we're moving in another verse. I already addressed Galatians five.

No, you haven't. Talk about those who are working according to the flesh and those who work according to the spirit are not the same group.

He's speaking to the believer here, Matt. In Galatians chapter three, he says, you're a son of God. You have been baptized into Christ's death.

Okay, he's speaking to the believer here. Why would he warn the believer if they're already on their way to heaven?

That's my question. Galatians 5 .19? Yes, yes,

Matt. Okay, if you're led by the spirit, you're not under the law, right? Yes.

Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, immorality, impurity, et cetera, et cetera, right? Yes. And those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God, right?

Yep. Okay, so idolatry, sorcery, entity, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, sensuality, impurity, immorality.

Is this the Christians? Well, some of those, the Christian do such sin like that.

It doesn't list that. Is this the Christians? Well, I don't know.

It's the Christian. Yeah, he's speaking to Christian. He's warning them not to do those sins. If you don't know if it's the

Christians, you can't say that it's the Christians. You can't use it against, then you can't use it against eternal security because you don't know what applies to the

Christians. Well, hold on. Let me explain what I mean by that here. Okay, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

Well, you see, that's the thing. That's why I didn't want to come in because I'm trying to... Okay, I'm going to shut you off for a second.

I want you to listen. I answer you. I ask a question. You ignore it and you continue with the same stuff.

I don't want you to do that. I want you to actually answer my question. I want you to address exactly what

I say. Don't ignore it and go on. I've asked you for a list.

You don't give it to me. We've gone through Galatians 5 .19. I've responded and then you just ignore it.

If I asked you about John 6 .37 -40, you already said, no, Jesus cannot fail to do the will of the

Father. Well, then he can't lose any. You're the one with the problem, not me.

You have to figure this out. You understand me? Yes, yes. Sorry if I interrupted. But no,

I don't think you addressed Galatians 5 because that's not a response. Does that speak about the Christian? Well, would you agree that a

Christian, even if they're saved, they can still have hatred or commit fornification, right?

Let's say someone commits fornification. That verse seems to imply that they won't enter the kingdom of heaven.

That's where my confuse is. I have a question for you.

If you look at a woman with lust, that's adultery, right? If you look at a woman with lust, that's gonna be fornication if you're not married, right?

Would it be fornification if you're not married? No, the text says that.

If you sleep with a woman, yes, that would be fornification. I'm just gonna move along. He doesn't, he's not listening.

Anybody else have any comments or questions? I have a problem discussing things with people when they can't focus on the issues and don't listen to what's really being said.

When you ask them a question, they don't get it. So it's just a problem. So if anybody else, well,

Salvathek, are you going to answer my questions actually? You're gonna actually answer instead of argue?

Are you? Yes, yes. Okay, now let me ask you something.

Did Jesus say, did Jesus say that he would lose none? Yes. Can he lose any?

No. Can anybody be lost who's already saved? No. Okay, then you have to deal with Galatians 5 .19

if you wanna use it as a statement to say that's the believers. Yeah, but you see, that's why

I jump in because I had some question on that because I struggle with my belief on one save, always save.

And that's why I wanna clear things out. Okay, that's why, because I see it from the historical, it's not there, but the

Bible, those verses seem to imply that Jesus cannot lose you. But after I have problem with other verse like Galatian or Luke 8, stuff like that, so that's why

I came and I have some question on those verses. Galatians 5 is talking about the deeds of the flesh, the unbelievers.

Those who walk by the spirit are spoken of later. You don't keep your salvation by walking because that's keeping the law.

You don't keep your salvation by what you do. What Paul is talking about there is the deeds of the flesh and the deeds of the spirit.

He's talking generically to the Galatian church. There's a mixture in the Galatian church of the good and the bad, the saved and the unsaved.

So he's gonna write in a generic way, here's the deeds of the flesh, here's the deeds of the spirit.

Make sure you're walking in the deeds of the spirit. He can't say, this is the formula you have to go through in order to be saved, don't walk in the deeds of the flesh because then that would be works righteousness.

He's appealing and he's differentiating. That's why he says in some places, examine, make sure you're in.

Yes, yes, because the whole reason why I'm looking into this is because I got a really bad experience at the church

I went to and stuff like that. So now I'm a bit confused on what to believe or so.

So I'm just looking for truth. That's basically, so that's why I joined. So you would say that Galatian five is speaking about, so Paul is speaking to a group of people who are not saved.

Does that verse apply for true Christian? He's talking to the Galatians in Galatia.

There are believers and unbelievers. There's a mixture. How would you want him to write something to a mixture of people?

If you're a spirit, you're gonna walk this way. If you have the flesh, you're gonna walk that way. Those who walk in the flesh, they're not gonna make it.

He's just telling them, this is the problem. Oh, okay, but so he's speaking to the

Galatian. Okay, I get it. So what about Galatian five four? What about this verse?

Where it says that Christ has become of no effect on you, whosoever you seek to be justified by the laws.

Yeah, because they wanna be circumcised. They wanna complete salvation by a ceremony.

Notice what he says. I again testify, everyone who receives circumcision is under obligation to keep the whole law.

It's to the Galatians people. If you go to Galatians three one, he says you foolish

Galatians who has bewitched you to think that that which has been begun by the spirit could be perfected by the flesh.

So he's talking about to the Galatian people, the Judaizers who wanted people to get circumcised in order to be saved.

He says, if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you. He says, I again testify, every man who receives circumcision, he's under obligation to keep the whole law.

You've been severed from Christ. Notice the word severed in relationship to circumcision. You're seeking to be justified by the law, you've fallen from grace.

It doesn't mean they're not saved because the grace of God had been bestowed upon people in many ways, to the person and the incarnation, the work of Christ, as well as the movement of the

Holy Spirit upon people, as well as the teaching of the apostles and the covenant work of God to the people.

And so the Judaizers knew the grace of God. They've fallen from that very grace of God's kindness and mercy.

It doesn't mean that they were saved and then they fell from the salvation because Jesus said he'd lose none, okay?

So were they, could we even say that those people were under common grace, the people who fall from the grace in Galatians 5, 4?

Because I've seen like other explanation. I don't know if you've seen the free grace interpretation of that verse, but they think that those people are actually saved people that are just being deceived by another gospel.

So do you think that's false? It can't be, they can't lose their salvation.

I finally picked up, made a comment. I thought you were an antagonist. You and I have talked before, I recognize your voice.

But you're just, you know, you're just asking questions. I get that. So sorry about that. But look, we cannot lose our salvation.

And there's a principle of biblical interpretation. When you have sets of scriptures on a topic and you have one set that's very clear and another set in the same topic that's not very clear, you interpret the not very clear verses in light of the very clear verses.

We know, for example, that Jesus says in John 6, 37 -40, you know, he talks about the eternal salvation.

He talks about, let's see, is it there? Nope, it's not being laid down. It says that he will lose none.

It's very clear. There's other verses, you know. You know, the eternal life will never perish. Jesus talks like this.

Well, if that's the case, that's clear. Jesus says he will lose none.

That's the will of the Father. So he can't lose any. That's clear. Now we go to Galatians 5. It's not that clear.

Because he's talking to the Judaizers who want people to be circumcised. And he's saying, this is not true gospel.

This is not true salvation. It's works righteousness. You're under obligation to keep the whole law.

You've been severed from Christ and the severing would be understood by the

Judaizers. If you go down to verse 12,

I wish that those who are troubling you would even mutilate themselves. He's talking about the male organ being severed and mutilated.

This is what he's saying to the Judaizers. That he's not teaching that they lose their salvation.

Yeah. And it's like, I've seen your debate with Dr.

San Yannis, the Catholics apologetic guys. And it's like, whenever we speak on that topic, it's like what they have to say, if they said that they believe they can lose their salvation is their works can save them.

But Matthew 7 says that, if you believe that, you'll hear, depart from me.

Because they would trust to the keeping of the law. So, when you point out to Catholics that, what you did, you point out that verse to him and he had like no answer to that.

And it's like, for me, it's like, Christ is the Lamb of God who comes to take the sin.

And it's like, if you can lose your salvation, that's why I'm kind of confused because I don't wanna be trusting my works, but it seems like if I can't lose it, it's gonna lead to, yeah,

I have to trust my works. You can't lose it, as long as your faith is in Christ and God's the one who gives you that faith.

Every good and perfect gift comes from God, James 117. You're justified by faith when you have faith, the faith that God grants to you.

And Jesus says, all who the father gives me will come to me and will not cast them out for this is the will of my father that everyone who comes to me,

I will not cast out but raise them up on the last day. The will of the father is that Jesus lose none.

And if you believe, it's because God granted you belief. It's a perfect and good enough gift for you to be saved.

You're secure in Christ. Don't let anybody else trouble you. Just as Paul was saying, you say that those people who are troubling you, because in Galatians 5 .10,

I have confidence in you and the Lord that you will adopt no other view, but the one who is disturbing you will bear his judgment, whoever he is.

But I brethren, if I still preach circumcision, why am I still persecuted? Then the stumbling block of the cross has been abolished.

I wish that those who are troubling you would even mutilate themselves. For you were called to freedom, brethren, not only do not turn your freedom into an opportunity for the flesh, but through love, serve one another.

This answers, actually, Galatians 5 .13 answers the question of the people who say, well, we can go out and sin all we want and be saved.

Don't turn your freedom to an opportunity of the flesh. But at any rate, and he goes on, he deals with that.

He says in verse 16, walk by the spirit. You'll not carry out the desires of the flesh. But we know that the atonement of Christ canceled the sin debt.

That's Galatians 2 .14. He didn't cancel it partially. He didn't cancel it maybe. He didn't cancel it, then uncancel it.

He certainly doesn't make you born again if you lose your salvation, then make you unborn again. He doesn't play games.

And Jesus says, all the Father gives me will come to me and he'll not lose any. That's the will of the Father. If Jesus loses any, then the

Father, I mean, he sinned against the Father. So when you come to these other verses, as in Galatians and other places, and like 1

Corinthians 6, what he's talking about is the people who are in this group, in that church, they're good people, there's bad people, there's believers, there's unbelievers, there's mixture.

How does he address them? He's not even there. He's heard things.

He's gonna write a letter. The letter's gonna be sent. In a few weeks, it might get to them. And then they're gonna read this letter.

He has to address enough stuff to say, look, if you walk by the flesh, you're in trouble.

Don't do that. Walk by the spirit. He's not saying you get the spirit by what you do because we know that's not the case.

But he's talking about those, the Judaizers, who think that they have to keep themselves right with God by what they do.

But if you go to Romans 2, Romans 2, 1, you're guilty of what it is you accuse others of doing.

Paul routinely accused the Jews of being hypocrites, and he said that you Jews mock and laugh at the

Gentiles, but they're the ones that had a law written in your heart. And you being a Jew, you have the oracles of God, 2

Corinthians, I mean, Romans 2, 17. He's talking to the Jews. He's spanking all over them.

He's just slapping them around. He's saying, look, you guys think you got it together. You guys think that you gotta do it by the law.

Well, then why is it that you don't even do what you say you're supposed to be able to do? His theme is regular.

If you're gonna live by the law, then you gotta keep that law. And so he's talking to the Judaizers. You walk by the flesh, you're not saved because they put their hope and their emphasis in the law, just as Jesus did when the rich young ruler came to him, the lawyer, and said, what do we do to be saved?

He said, well, what does the law say? Because the guy said, what do I have to do to be saved? Jesus answered him according to what he desired.

And it's by their own standard, you're gonna be judged, the Bible says. I forgot where that is, but it's true. So the

Judaizers were wanting to keep themselves saved by what they're in the law. And he's showing the works of the law and the works of the flesh.

But he'd also said in Galatians 3, you foolish Galatians. Who's bewitched you to think that that which had been done by the spirit could be perfected by the flesh?

That's what he says. But besides, Jesus Christ is publicly portrayed as crucified, this thing is, this is what

I wanna know, I wanna find out among you. Did you receive the spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith?

So earlier, he's distinguishing between the law, Galatians 5 .19 and following, and Galatians 5 .22

with the spirit. Are you so foolish, having been begun by the spirit, you now being perfected by the flesh? And what he's alluding to is the issue of circumcision.

Exactly, what I was mentioning earlier is Paul uses high sarcasm and extreme hyperbole.

He's saying, if you guys think it's spiritual to be a Christian by getting circumcised, he uses the word in the

Greek, emasculos. Cut it all off, you guys. And it was a shocking term for them.

Emasculate yourself if you think that's spiritual. And he was making fools of them and showing them what fools they were to require law keeping like that.

Exactly. Yeah, and that's the whole thing, because you point out Galatians 3, in that same verse, and it's like you point out, it's whether by faith alone or by faith plus work.

But in that same verse, he says, faith apart from works. So that's kind of faith alone there.

Faith apart from works, that's James 2. What I'm saying on Galatians 3, where he says in Galatians, and for me, that teaches faith alone.

And in the Galatian tree, I think it's in the verse, it's verse eight. He says that God will justify the hidden to faith.

It's somewhere in Galatian tree where he says, it's faith apart from any work. So that for me, that's faith alone in that verse.

Yeah, Galatians 3 .8, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel before Abraham, saying all the nations will be blessed in you.

Solve it, yeah, exactly. And just, because after I'm gonna go, but I just had a question to you guys.

Most of my friends are New Independent Fundamental Baptists. So they follow Steven Anderson.

And that's why I had a bad experience about Christianity, because I realized I wasn't a cult following him.

Okay, good, yeah, okay. So I just had a question, because he teach a doctrine called the reprobate doctrine that like no homosexual can be saved even if they repent.

And I was just wondering, because I always go to 1 Corinthians where it says, some were such, I view the homosexual, he speak about homosexual, but their

King James only exist. And I just wanted to know, if you know what the word abuser of themself, what mankind is translated in the

Greek, if it actually means homosexual. Arsene Quotas in 1

Corinthians 6, 9, it means man better. Okay, but in Romans 1, 26 through 30 ish, it talks about the unnatural, a man abandons the natural function of the woman and burns lust with one another.

It's condemning homosexuality. So, but Anderson, I've offered to debate him on some various issues.

I've never heard anything from him, but don't listen to that guy. He will mess you up, okay?

Yeah, that's what I realized it's like. Yeah, well, thank you very much,

Matt, for answering my question. All right, sorry about misunderstanding you earlier, but okay. Yeah, I reflect on everything that we talked tonight.

Really appreciate it. Are you on... Politic and religion?

Yeah, on the server. I guess. Yeah, I think

I've already joined your open stream too before. Okay, that's why...

Nevermind. Okay, good. I've actually had, because you asked me a question about Romans 4, 5 last time, and I had no answer for that, but now

I've came up with an answer apart from your point of view. Would you mind if I see it and we cross -examine it real quick?

Sure. So the Romans 4, 5, to him that worketh not, that refers, so that's the explanation

I've seen, that refers to the works of the lost circumcision, and not from every works, because there's the work of God too in our salvation.

So that would refer only to circumcision. Let me tell you why it doesn't work.

You ready? Yep. Verse 1 of Romans 4, what then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found?

For Abraham was justified by works. He has something to boast about, but not before God. Was Abraham before the law?

Yes. But what does the scripture say? Abraham believed God who was credited in his righteousness.

So the belief was before the codification of the law, right? Yep. Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but what is due?

The one who does not work, but believes in him who justifies the ungodly. And notice what's going on.

Verse 2, if Abraham was justified by works, that's past tense. He has something to boast about, but not before God.

What does the scripture say? Abraham believed God, past tense, credited him as righteousness. To the one who works, present tense.

His wage is not credited as a favor, but what is due? But to the one who does not work, present tense, but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness.

Just as David also speaks of the blessing of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works.

So now before and after the law is given, righteousness is by faith.

Yeah, so that can be speaking about circumcision since circumcision wasn't, yeah, that makes sense.

Thanks for answering. That's right. Abraham was justified before he was circumcised. Yeah, and it's like, they always go to James 2, but like for me, like it's clear in Romans 1 that Abraham, if he was justified by works, it was not before God.

But not before God, that's right, that's vertical. Justification before people, okay?

I mean, before God. James 2 is justification before people, all right? But why would he bring up though, in the part that wasn't

Abraham or father justified by works when he offered Isaac on the altar? If that's before a man, like who was there to offer?

Who was there to watch Abraham sacrificing his son on the altar? James 2 is justification before people.

James 2, 14, let's see. You still there?

Abraham told his servants before he took the boy up on the hill, we will be back.

He will return. Yeah, that's right. That's why the dead giveaway language in James is you show me and I'll show you, okay?

That's not God language. God already knows. That's right. He started in verse 14 of James 2.

What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith, but he has no works, can that faith save him?

If a brother or sisters without clothing and in need of daily food, and one of you says to them, go in peace, be warmed and be filled, and yet you're not given what is necessary for their body, what use is that?

Even so faith, if it has no works is dead. That faith, right? But some of them may well say, you show me, says you have faith and I have works, show me your faith without the works,

I will show you my faith by my works. So it's not talking about justification before God, it's justification before man.

That's what verse 18 is saying. You show me, I'll show you. It's horizontal. In verse 19, you believe that God is one, you do well, the demons believe also and they tremble.

Are you so willing to recognize you foolish fellow that faith that works is useless? Before people, because if you say, hey, go be warmed and be filled, you're not helping them.

Real faith manifests. This is the difference between what we call fiducia and assentia.

Assentia is simply mental assent about, a devil believes in God, but he's not saved.

That's assentia. Fiducia is a heartfelt trust. James is talking about the difference between assentia and fiducia.

And a justification before people. That's what Romans 8, I mean, James 2, 18 is talking about.

That's why it says in verse 21, that Abraham, our father was justified by works when he offered up Isaac, his son, on the altar.

He's not talking about justification before God. And the reason we know that is when you go to Galatians, I mean, Romans 4, 1, it says, what then shall we say that Abraham, that our forefather to our forefather

Abraham, for if Abraham was justified works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. That's what

Romans 4, 1 and 2 says. But James 2, it talks about Abraham with justification before people.

James 2 is on the horizontal justification before people. Romans 4 is on the vertical justification between people and God.

So Romans 4 before God, James 2 before man. Yes, because Romans 4, what then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, according to the flesh has found, for if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.

The justified by works is James 2. He can boast about what he's done before people.

This is what I've done, but not before God. See, I can say to people, look, yeah,

I'm a Christian. I do radio, I write books, I argue, I teach. I've got a huge website. I'm showing people, yeah,

I'm a Christian. I've confessed in my Lord and look what I do. I'm proving it. I don't do that before God.

Hey God, look how good I am. God, I've done this, I've done that. You know, I deserve a lightning bolt, you know?

All right. Our works are filthy rag before him. What? I said our works are filthy rag before God.

So we couldn't be justified by filthy rag. Right, Isaiah 64, six, right?

Righteous deeds are filthy rags and filthy rags in Hebrew means used menstrual cloths.

Yeah, so that's not gonna justify you far away, yeah. You got that right. That's why justification is by faith alone in Christ alone.

Because Jesus, God in flesh, never sinned, 1 Peter 2, 22, and he died and if we trust in him, we're justified by faith apart from any works because all your works and my works are touched by filthy rags.

That's it. We have nothing we can bring to the cross, nothing, nothing good.

The only thing we can bring is a bag full of used menstrual cloths. That's it.

You know, and I picture the cross on a small hill and it's muddy and it's mucky and it's dirty and I'm walking up there and I got this bag of crap on my shoulder and I drop to my knees and I push it onto the ground in front of me and push it towards him.

That's the best I got and that's nothing, right? So I'm not even gonna bring that.

What I'm gonna do is go so to speak naked before the cross, put my face down and say, you're all

I have. That's justification by faith because it's faith in Christ not faith in anything

I can do or bring with Christ. Make sense? Yeah, exactly.

Because otherwise if you have to answer by faith or, oh, well, I've get baptized,

I've got baptized but Jesus is gonna say, get away from me, you know? So there's either by faith alone.

All right, thank you very much, Matt. Now I'm gonna let you guys speak with the other guys. All right,

God bless. Okay, God bless. All right. Okay, Giro, Gyro, whatever it is.

You wanna say something? Can you guys hear me? Or am I quiet? No, we hear you. All right, I just had a quick question because I couldn't, because I'm trying to go quickly.

So it's a book of Revelation. Book of Revelation. Yeah, chapter three.

Chapter three, yeah. So would you say true

Christians' names are written in the book of life? Yeah. Okay, so can you go to verse five and just read it quick?

Uh -huh. He who overcomes must be clothed with white garments. I will not erase his name from the book of life and I'll confess his name before my father and before his angels, yes.

Yeah, so my question would be, if the church of Sardis didn't do what

Jesus said, Jesus would have blotted their names of the book of life, correct? Okay, let's go with that, yeah.

Yeah, so my question is, doesn't that like kind of disprove once they've always saved?

Because Jesus is saying to true Christians that their names will be blotted out of the book of life. No, it doesn't say that.

He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments, which is a symbol of righteousness. And I will not erase his name from the book of life.

What is the book of life? Is the book of life that book, which means you're guaranteed to have salvation in it?

Or is the book of life, the book of all peoples who are alive, whoever lived, and that when you die without Christ, your name is erased from the book of life.

One of the reasons that's part of the theory of what it is, is because there were towns in that time and period, you go to the gates and you would have books written, or you know, you call it a book, of the names of all the people in that town at that time.

And when they died, they would cross their name out. It didn't mean it didn't exist anymore.

And so some people think that it might be that he won't, you know, that your name will never be written, blotted out because you're in Christ.

You have that. But if you were never in Christ, your name will be brought out of the book of life.

That's one of the theories behind that. Okay, so to some, let me, correct me if I'm wrong, but you're saying that verse five isn't talking about the

Lamb's book of life or? Well, it doesn't say the Lamb's book of life, but here's another thing about it.

It says, I will not erase his name out of the book of life. If it means that the book is for those who have eternal life.

I would say so. You'll come, you'll have white garments, you'll not be blotted out. It's just, it's assurance. Okay, that's interesting.

I wasn't prepared to hear that answer. What church do you go to?

I don't, it's like a Pentecostal, but I don't, I haven't been going. Okay, is it

United Pentecostal? It's, I'm not too sure, but it's really like the only church that is besides Catholic or whatever.

So I don't really go to it because there's a lot of false teachings and stuff, but. Okay, good.

I do Bible studies and stuff with my pastor, but I don't really go like fully. What city and state do you live in?

If you don't have to tell me, but I'm just curious. Canada. Well, that's bad news.

So what I would do, if I were you, is see if you can go to CARM.

You know about my website, CARM, right? Oh, I think so. I haven't been to it, but. That's okay.

Is it in your description? Just, what's that? Is it in your description? Like for your

YouTube videos? It's CARM .org, C -A -R -M .org, okay? Yeah. So what you could do is, you go to Google, and you could type in the word

CARM, C -A -R -M. That'll get you to the site. But type in CARM, and then what to look for in a church.

And the article will come up on the website, the things to look for in a church. It'll give you what you need to look for. And then you can call churches up and interview them, or look in their statement of faith.

If they have women pastors, stay away. Teach you can lose your salvation, stay away, okay?

The various things like this, and there's stuff in there. And there are good places to look and learn.

Dare I say, listen to my radio show five days a week. Yeah, I know. I've watched a couple of your videos.

Okay. Not for theology or anything, but just like your debates, a few of your debates. Okay. Well, what

I would also recommend is go to CARM and look up the Christian theology section, and start reading.

And always check everything I've written there against the word of God. You make sure that what I'm saying is biblical.

Yeah, of course. All right. Yeah. All right. I dropped in a link for gyromat for, that's been a very reliable link from the master seminary on how to find a church near you that's a decent church.

And I've found when I've checked out the statements of faith all over the world for the ones they recommend, they've been pretty sound, pretty sound.

Okay, good. Yeah, so that link has been useful for me. Okay, I'll look into it.

Yeah, and, you know, keep in contact with us, okay? Yeah, I will. I just, I don't,

I wouldn't say I'm completely sold on one saved, always saved, because I've heard both sides.

And I would just say that one saved, always saved doesn't seem to line up with verses like Revelation three.

Revelation three does not prove. Especially the book of Revelation. Like I find it really hard to grasp that that's one saved, always saved.

Well, how about this? How about this? Jesus says in John 6, 37 through 40, he says, all that the father gives me will come to me.

And the ones who come to me, I certainly will not cast out. For this is the will of my father, that all that he has given me will come to me.

That's a long time. He says, well, this will of my father, that all he's given me, of them

I lose none, but raise it up on the last day. So the question then becomes, can

Jesus lose any? No. Then you can't lose your salvation, can you?

But I would say Jesus couldn't lose any, but I would say you could mess it up for yourself.

Okay, if that's the case. Yeah, for example, if I start walking in the flesh as a

Christian, I don't think Jesus is gonna accept you when you die.

I don't think your name - Oh, if you start walking in the flesh, he'll discipline you. You don't think he'll blot out your name from the book of life?

No, because he's already canceled your sin debt at the cross, Colossians 2, 14.

You're justified when you believe, Romans 5, 1. And that he disciplines those whom he loves.

If you start walking in the flesh, he's gonna spank you all over the place. He's gonna discipline you.

Doesn't say he's gonna leave you. Okay, yeah, that's actually, hold on.

I gotta get a verse real quick, because that just brought something to mind. Here is one from Hebrews 12.

Yeah, Hebrews 12. It's 5, 6, I think it was. 1 John 1, 7. 1

John 1, 7? Yeah, 1 John 1, 7. Yeah, we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves.

No, no, no, no, wait. No, that's not the one. It's, but if we walk in the light, as he's in light, we have fellowship with one another.

And the blood of Jesus Christ, Jesus Christ, the son cleanses us from all sin. So I would say this is like conditional.

This is saying if we walk in the light. And it's implying if we don't walk in the light, we don't have Jesus' blood forgiving our sins.

Okay, are you walking in the light? Yeah, as long as you're walking in the spirit. Okay, so as long as you are good, you'll stay saved.

No, no, that's not what I would say. I would say as long as I'm living faithfully to God, which

I would say is walking in the light. So walking in the light's a good thing, right? Of course.

So you are keeping yourself saved by your goodness? No, I'm working out my salvation that's already been provided.

What do you mean working it out? That's Philippians 2 .13, what do you mean working it out? Yeah, like working it out. So when he says work out your salvation with fear and trembling,

I interpret that as walking in the light. So as long as you're walking in the light, you keep yourself saved.

Yeah, as long as I follow Jesus, yeah. Because you got to obey Jesus, right? That's what like, I don't. So then what you're saying then is, as long as you do the things that he wants you to do, you'll keep yourself saved.

Yeah, as long as I do the things Jesus wants me to do. So is there any room for error?

For sin? Yeah. Of course. So if you walk in the light, that means don't sin, right?

No. So you can sin? No, no, no. So it says when you're walking in the light, you have the

Jesus blood cleansing you from all sin. So that would include mess ups, right? So I would say someone who's walking in the light isn't gonna go to like, isn't gonna practice sin.

Someone who's walking in the light is gonna still mess up, but he's not gonna go live in that sin. Okay.

So as long as you keep a certain level of goodness, you'll be okay. As long as I obey Jesus and live faithfully to him.

Okay. So then, let me ask you, are you agree with this statement?

We're saved by grace through faith after all we can do? Of course. That's the

Book of Mormon, 35, 1918. Or no, what? 75, 25, 23.

Okay, no. Not Book of Mormon. I thought you were quoting Ephesians. No, I quoted the Book of Mormon.

Okay, well, I misheard you. I don't, I'm not a Mormon. I agree with you're saved by grace.

You're teaching the same thing the Mormons teach. I'm teaching what the Bible teaches,

I would say. That's why you're trying to get you to correct me. Because Jesus said he would lose none.

And the issue is that it's between the father and the son.

The will of the father is that Jesus lose none. And Jesus says, all who believe in him will have eternal life and he will raise them up.

That's the will of the father, that everyone who believes in him, that he will raise. So you're saying that Jesus is failing to do the will of the father.

No, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying belief, saying you believe entails with faith. And faith without works is dead.

So you could say you have faith, but fruits is the evidence of your faith because you're only saved by faith in Jesus.

Fruit is the evidence because of your faith. It's the evidence of your faith because you're regenerated, but that's not what saves you, the fruit doesn't save you.

Oh no, I agree, I agree, the fruit doesn't save you. Jesus does, Jesus saves you. Is walking in the light bearing fruit?

Yeah. So then you said the fruit is not what saves you, but you've got to walk in the light, which is bearing fruit in order to be saved, which is it?

No, no, no, no, no, I said again, because I said again, please. Walking in the light, is that a good fruit?

Okay. Are we saved by our bearing of fruit? No. Or do we keep ourselves saved by bearing fruit?

No, but you're working out yourself. Well, you're working out your salvation, so.

Well, wait, wait, stick on the topic. You said walking in the light is bearing fruit, and that's what you have to do in order to keep yourself saved, but walking in the light is bearing fruit, but you said we're not saved by bearing fruit.

So which is it? You can't have both. Yeah, so you're saved by faith, but the fruits is something that comes with that faith.

So for example, if I was walking in the light, and I go off and I'm walking in darkness now,

I'm practicing sin, I'm not bearing good fruits, and yeah. For how long?

For how long? One day? What do you mean? How long can you, how much sin or how much not walking in the light you have to commit in order to lose your salvation?

Just living in darkness, living in sin. For how long? I don't think there's a specific time.

And how do you know how long it is or isn't? No, it's not about how long it is or isn't, it's about if you're in the light or in darkness.

For example, today, if I just go off and I just, just if I go and practice sin,

I'm not walking in the light anymore, I'm walking in darkness, and the blood of Jesus won't cover my sin. Let's just say that, let's accuse you of something bad.

Let's see, let's see. Okay, you're walking today, you're going along, and you totally lust after a woman, let's just say, okay?

Sure, sure. So you're walking in the flesh, right? Yes, I am walking in the flesh. Okay, are you saved right then and there?

Yes, because the blood of Jesus covers me from all sin, and I wasn't thinking or predetermining doing that sin.

Oh, yes, you were. You were doing it on purpose because you're the one doing the lusting. No, no, I hold 100 % accountability, but I didn't go out that day thinking, oh,

I'm gonna go lust after a woman. It doesn't matter. You did it. I would say it does. You were not walking in the light that period of time, were you?

No, that's a mess up. But I said walking in the light entails mess ups.

Is it sin? Yeah, it is sin. So you sinned, so you can sin, and you do it again the next day.

You see her again, and the next day you're struggling with it. You keep doing this failure.

So you're the one who said you gotta walk in the light to keep yourself right, and apparently in this situation, you're not.

So how is it that you can keep yourself saved if you continually mess up? Okay, well, you don't continually mess up.

For example, if I know I'm gonna walk today, I know that girl's gonna be there, I'm not gonna walk that way, or I'm gonna cover my eyes or do something like that.

Yeah, and then what you do is you don't go that way. You get in your car and you drive someplace else, and then you get a little road rage problem because someone in Idaho doesn't know how to handle the four -way stops.

So you get upset about somebody, an unrighteous anger. There you go again. You're blowing it again.

And then someone says something you don't like, and you're unrighteously angry with them. And let's not mention the pride that you can feel in your heart.

And just saying, we get prideful. Look at me, man, look at me. I can do this, I can do that. We get prideful.

You see, if you want to say you have to walk in the light in order to keep yourself saved, you're saying you keep yourself saved by what you do.

It's works. Okay, I think, I wouldn't say it's the works that save you.

I would say it's faith, because my genuine faith is producing these works. But I'm not gonna say like -

No, your faith is not. No, it is. Your faith is not producing the works. How isn't it?

It's the spirit in you through regeneration that's producing the works. Faith is a concept, it's an abstraction that you have in God.

And because of this thing that God grants you the faith, in Philippians 1 .29, he grants it, you believe.

And because he regenerates you, 2 Corinthians 5 .17, you're born again, John 3 .3

-8, then you are enabled to do good works. But those good works don't keep you saved.

Yeah, yeah, I didn't say works save you at all. I wasn't trying to imply that at all. Yes, you did. You said you have to walk in -

You did. You have to walk in the light in order to keep yourself right. That's works.

No, it's not works, because genuine faith will have you walking in the light. You can't save genuine faith when you're walking in darkness.

What he's trying to say is that if you unintentionally don't walk in the light, that's different than if you intentionally walk in the light.

So, accidental sin is okay. Yeah, every sin that I commit is pardoned as long as I'm walking in the light.

And walking in the light is obeying Jesus. So, then your sins are taken away by your continued action of walking in the light.

No, by Jesus' sacrifice and my faith in that sacrifice. And that true faith.

Let me ask you. Yeah, go ahead. When was, if you're a Christian, okay, when was all of your sins canceled?

The moment I repented and put my faith in Jesus. But - That's not true. That's not true.

How is that not true? Colossians 2 .14. He canceled the certificate of debt, consisting of decrees which was hostile to us.

He took it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. The sin debts canceled at the cross.

Colossians 2 .14, okay? Okay, yeah. But I was just trying to say like, as soon as I put my faith in Jesus, we're gonna differ there because I'm not

Reformed theology. I'm pretty sure you are. I just quoted you scripture. Yeah, I know. I heard you.

Colossians 2 .14, because it says in the previous verse, having forgiven us all of our sins, verse 14, having canceled the certificate of debt, consisting of decrees which was hostile to us.

He took it out of the way, having nailed to the cross. When did Jesus cancel the sin debt? If you're talking about for everyone, then on the cross, of course.

No, I don't believe it was for everyone. But he says it's on the cross. That's what the text says, right? Yeah, yeah.

I agree with the text. How is it that you can have your sin debt continually canceled and cleansed by your walking?

Because that sacrifice is conditional. As long as my faith is in Jesus, that true faith will produce those works.

For example, if I say kind of what James talks about, if I say I have faith and I go walk in darkness, that's not real faith.

How can I say I have faith and I'm doing all these wicked things? You still don't understand the gospel yet.

No, no, I do. I'm not saying that your works save you. I'm saying it's your faith that justifies you, but that faith will produce those works.

It's not the works that save you. Faith doesn't produce the works. So let me give you an illustration of something.

Jesus canceled the sin debt at the cross. There's a man and he's on his way to the bank.

Every first of the month, he goes to the bank and pays a thousand dollar mortgage on his house. Every month he does it.

And on the way this one particular day, he's in a car accident and he, in a car accident, oh,

I hit my thing here. He's in a car accident and he ends up in a coma for a few weeks in a hospital. And he can't pay his debt.

I mean, it's not a big deal, but it is, but it's not. Okay, but anyway, a philanthropist hears about this guy's problem and the philanthropist goes to the bank and pays the debt.

Pays his mortgage, okay? Yeah. Is it paid? Of course. Does it exist anymore?

No, the debt doesn't exist. Exactly. Now the man wakes up and he does, he finds out someone paid it, but he doesn't accept it.

Does it mean then that because he doesn't like it, doesn't accept it, does it mean that the debt becomes unpaid?

Hold on, that kind of confused me there. Say that again. The man wakes up and finds out that someone paid off his entire mortgage, but he isn't like that.

Okay. He goes, I don't like that. Well, does that have any bearing on whether or not it was paid for or not?

I mean, I see you're trying to correlate this to Jesus, but I just don't - Does it have any bearing on whether or not it's paid for or not?

No. When Jesus canceled the sin debt, does it have any bearing on you whether or not it's already canceled?

Okay. I'm going to answer this, but it's not going to be a quick answer. I would say no, it is not dependent upon me.

But if Jesus says you have to do this, for example, Revelation 3, 5, he says, if you don't repent, your name will be blotted out of the book of life.

Now, if I didn't - Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. What does it say? If you don't repent, your name will be blotted out.

Not repent, not repent. The one who overcomes. So if you do not overcome - The one who's saved will never have his name blotted out of the book of life, right?

It doesn't say they can lose their salvation. The sin debt's canceled by Jesus at the cross.

Yeah. Not when you walk in the light and not by your continued effort. So how do you answer 1

John 1, 7? Like, how do you even interpret that? If we walk in the light, he's simply addressing, he's addressing the -

What the heck? Okay. Wow. Sorry, I closed the program accidentally.

So when he says, if we walk in the light, he's saying, if we do this, Jesus cleanses us, right?

Is he saying that Jesus cleanses us because we walk in the light? I don't know.

I don't know. Well, then does he cleanse us based on our works? Cleanses us based on our faith.

Well, then how is walking the thing that cleanses us if we're justified by faith?

Well, because the me walking is a result of my faith. If we walk in the light, let's read the whole thing.

Look, verse five. This is the message we have heard from him and announced to you that God is light and in him there is no darkness at all.

If we say we have fellowship with him and yet we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth.

So if you say you're a Christian and yet you're doing evil things, you're a liar. You're not really saved, are you?

Nope. You're not really having fellowship with him, are you? Nope. But if we walk in the light as he himself is in the light, we have fellowship with one another and the blood of Christ cleanses us from sin, from all sin.

Does it say, wait a minute, does it say in that verse that the blood of Jesus cleanses us because we're walking in the light?

I think it implies it. Pretty clearly. Does it say it? It implies it, though.

I mean, it doesn't have - Where does it imply it? If we walk in the light as he is in the light, we have fellowship.

And the blood of Jesus covers us from all sin. So that implies if you don't walk in the light, you don't have that.

Okay. So if you don't walk in the light, then the blood of Christ does not cleanse you, right? Yes. Who are those who don't walk in the light?

Those who practice sin, just like Jesus says, apart from all you who practice iniquity.

Those are the people who don't walk in the light. Who are the ones who practice sin? Anybody, anybody.

Okay. That could be lukewarm Christians, that could be really anybody. Look, the ones who practice sin are the unrighteous and the unregenerate.

We practice righteousness. You gotta understand something. We can't sin as Christians because we've died with Christ, Romans 6 .6,

Romans 6 .8. Romans 7 .4 says he who has died is freed from the law. That means there is no law for us if we've died with Christ.

And the Bible says, 1 John 3 .4, the breaking of the law is sin. We've died with Christ, but the

Bible says he who has died is freed from the law. Without the law, there is no sin, Romans 5 .13.

If we've died with Christ, we're crucified with Christ, Romans 6 .6, died with him, Romans 6 .8, then it cannot be, technically, that we have any sin because the law doesn't have any jurisdiction over us because we died with Christ.

So as a Christian, you cannot sin. That's why the Bible says in 1

John, he who is of Christ does not sin. I believe that the reason is because it's looking at us in Christ.

Okay, I see how you're looking at it, but then I would - And then it says if you are practicing sin, the only way to practice sin is to be under that law.

I would disagree. Well, then how can anyone sin if there is no law?

Because we're under the new covenant with Jesus, and Jesus did. I agree with you. The Ten Commandments -

I asked you. Yeah, I don't - I didn't ask for the new covenant. I said, I didn't ask for the new covenant. I said, if we have died to the law, we're not under the law anymore, how can we then sin?

Okay, give me one sec, one sec, one sec. This guy just wants to believe that you keep your salvation.

No, I actually don't. I'm just, I wanna raise all the points I can right now. No, I don't. No, you want to, because you're defending that position.

You're defending the position - Well, I have to in order to learn. That you keep your salvation by how you walk with Christ.

Yeah. Okay. So then your salvation depends on your goodness before Jesus. It depends on my faith to him, but faith will produce the works and the obedience.

I say one thing, you say another. I say walk in the light. I say walk in the light, walking with Jesus and you change it to faith.

You keep doing that. You're saying that your salvation is dependent on your walk, how you're walking the light with Jesus, right?

Well, that's the thing, you're trying to make it like walking the light is a work, which it is, but I'm not saying that saves you.

I'm saying your faith, which produces you walking in a light, but it's not the work that saves me.

It's the faith. Yeah, you're going to Roman Catholic stuff. No, I'm not a

Roman Catholic. That's what Roman Catholicism teaches. You just taught Roman Catholic theology in condign and congruent merit.

Well, I've agreed, not everything the Catholic church knows is wrong. I'm just telling you, you're teaching what

Catholic theology teaches. I also quoted 2 Nephi 25, 23, where it says that we're saved by grace through faith after all we can do.

What I could also do is go to the Watchtower Bible and track society and reference the quotes we don't have quite memorized, where it says that there's things you got to do to keep yourself right.

And one of them is follow the commandments of God. You got to follow what he says. And the commandments of Christ are love God and love your neighbor, right?

Yeah. Is that walking in the light? Yeah. So you have to love

God and love your neighbor in order to be saved, right? No.

No? Actually, no, no, no. That's walking in the light. I would say, yeah, let me redo what I was going to say.

I was going to say, I don't like those answers because it's not, do those save you? It's like your faith saves you, but how do you test if your faith is real or not?

No, no, no, no. It's by the works. That's what I'm trying to say. No, no, no, your faith doesn't save you. Your faith doesn't.

Because you don't have that faith in Christ alone. You have faith in your ability to walk in the light.

And let me ask you, is loving God and loving your neighbor, to do that, is it walking in the light?

Yeah, yeah, of course. Jesus said in Matthew 22, 37, that the greatest commandment was to love

God. And then two verses later in verse 39, to love your neighbor is the second greatest commandment.

Love God and love your neighbor. He said in verse 40, that in these two commandments, all the law is summarized.

Okay, you with me? Yeah, yeah, I'm with you. Why does Paul say that the man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law,

Galatians 3 .28? Which means we're justified apart from loving God and loving your neighbor.

Okay, so, okay,

I see what you're saying, but would you say you don't, like, if I didn't love God with all my heart, mind, body, and soul, and I didn't love my neighbor as myself, would you still say that I have faith?

Okay, wait, don't jump ahead. You're the one saying you gotta walk in the light to keep yourself right with God.

I asked you if walking in the light was loving God and loving your neighbor. You said yes. And then

I'm showing you that that's a summarization of the law according to Jesus' own words, and I quoted you where it is.

Then I quote you Galatians, I mean, Romans 3 .28, which says we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.

When Jesus says love God in Matthew 22 .37, he's quoting

Deuteronomy 6 .5. When he says in Matthew 22 .39, love your neighbor, he's quoting

Leviticus 19 .18. Yeah, I would say what about when he says a new command

I give to you? Love your neighbor as I have loved you. That's not an

Old Testament law. Listen, listen, we're talking about justification. Paul says we're justified by faith without the works of the law.

And I agree. How can you be justified by faith apart from loving God and loving your neighbor?

Because Jesus' new commands are not works of the law. Would you say

Jesus' new command is a work of the law? Jesus said this is summation of the law.

Yeah, I know, I know. He said it's the greatest command without the works of the law. Loving one another is what

Jesus says in when he says love one another. It's, that's

Leviticus 19 .18. Yeah, I know. I don't think you understand what I'm trying to say. Yes, I do understand.

You don't understand. Oh, I'm not trying to insult you. I'm just, I genuinely don't. No, no, I know you're not.

So can you clarify, clarify one sec, one sec. So in John 13 .34, would you say Jesus' new commands are works of the law?

The new commands he applies to us? Let me ask you a question. I'll answer it when the question's over.

Did he say it under the old covenant? Yes. A new command

I'm giving you under the old covenant system. Love one another. Is that also -

When did you say the new covenant started then? When the death of Christ. Romans 8.

Then how did Jesus at the last supper say, this is, hold on. The blood of the new covenant.

Yeah, the blood of the new covenant. Because a new covenant is ratified in the death of Christ. You go to Hebrews 9 .15 -16.

So were the apostles under the old or new covenant? Cairo, Cairo, Cairo, Cairo, go. How are we justified by God apart from the works of loving

God and loving your neighbor? Since you said that's walking in the light. Faith, yeah, I said faith.

And I'm not talking about Old Testament. I'm not talking about works of the law. I'm talking about Jesus' commands.

That is walking the light, following Jesus. Get the charger, get the charger. I'm sorry. I'm sorry, what?

I'm sorry. Yeah, I was saying, so basically I agree with that. We're not justified by works of the law, but when

Jesus says things like a new command I give to you, which I don't believe is old covenant. No, no, no, dude, dude, you keep ignoring what

I'm telling you. No, no, no, I'm trying to answer it, I'm trying to answer it. No, listen, you said walking the light is loving

God and loving your neighbor. You said this. I'm asking you a question in light of what you said.

You said this, but yet Paul says we're justified apart from that very thing. So how do you hold your position when

Paul contradicts you? Yeah, I would say this then, that walking in the light is following Jesus, obeying his commands.

And he says that the greatest command is to love God and love your neighbor. Should you love God and love your neighbor?

Of course. Well then, how can you be justified when

Jesus says, when Paul says we maintain the amendment justified by faith apart from the works of the law, and all the law is summarized in those two commandments?

Okay, starting to make more sense now. I get what you're saying. Okay, look, Matthew, look,

I'm gonna read this. Matthew 22. He says, love

God, love your neighbor. Verse 40, on these two commandments depend the whole law and prophets.

Yeah, okay. All right. So, now Jesus has a new command

I'm giving you. I have no problem with that. It is to love one another, right? Okay. So we're to love one another.

I get what you're saying, yeah. Okay, but you're the one saying in order to keep yourself saved, you have to walk in the light.

So your salvation depends on your ability to do what is good, because walking in the light is good, and it is a good thing.

But you're saying that your salvation depends on your ability. No, my faith in Jesus, which will produce good works, which

I'm trying to clarify. I'm trying to clarify. So it's not the works that set me for like the third time.

It's not the works that saved me. It's the faith in Jesus, but that faith produces good fruits, which are good works.

And yeah, so I'm not saying Old Testament works of the law saved me. It's not what

I'm saying. I'm saying, if you wanna say all commands, even Jesus's commands are works of the law, then that would say works of the law are a byproduct of true faith, of genuine faith.

Yes, that's what James 2 is talking about. Yeah. You have to understand, you have to understand something.

You're justified by faith alone in Christ alone, not by faith and your ability to walk and your ability to maintain.

What would you say faith is? This is what the cults teach this. Okay. Roman Catholicism teaches this.

A whole lot of Pentecostals do, I know, I know. Yes, and a whole lot of Pentecostals do. A lot of false teachers teach this stuff.

But what Jesus said is that he will lose none, right?

Yep. But you're saying if you don't walk, you can be lost, right? If you don't, yeah, if you don't have faith.

So then Jesus loses you, and that means he fails to do the will of the Father. No, he doesn't, because genuine faith will, you won't lose,

Christ won't lose any if you have genuine faith. If you don't, then you were never his. See, you just, what you did was just reinterpreted the scripture according to your theology.

Jesus says, this is the will of my Father that everyone who he gives to me will come to me and I will lose none and raise it up in the last day.

The will of the Father is that Jesus lose none and that Jesus resurrect them. Yeah.

Because they're a group given by the Father to the Son. You're saying that you can undo that by your effort.

I'm saying your faith is what, is kind of what separates you from being a true believer and a false convert or lukewarm.

Look, you don't understand. Okay, I get what you're doing. And what you're doing is you're saying, let me explain. You're saying, if you have true faith, you're gonna have true works, but it's not the works that save you, but the true faith is what saves you.

And as long as you're walking, you're manifesting the true faith, and as you're walking in the light, you're gonna be okay. But if you stop having that faith, then you're not justified by faith anymore because you're not really walking in that light because that means that you don't really have that faith.

Yeah, that's exactly what I'm saying, exactly. Right, that's exactly what you're saying. I got you. So in other words, what you're saying is you keep your salvation by your goodness.

No, by my faith. I just described it to you. Is faith in God -

I don't like that word goodness because - I know you don't like it. I'm trying to say faith, which, and I wanted to ask you this too, so -

Wait a minute, wait, wait, wait, wait. Is faith in God a good thing? Of course.

Is believing in God a good thing? Depends. Is your faith in God, your faith in Christ, is it a good thing?

Of course it's good. Then is it not your work? Is it your work or is it

God's work that you believe? I would say it's my work.

Jesus says, this is the work of God that you believe on whom he has sent, John 6, 28, 29. So you're believing is the work of God.

In fact, you're granted belief, Philippians 1, 29. Every good and perfect gift comes from God, James 1, 17.

God grants that you believe, Philippians 1, 29. He grants you repentance, 2 Timothy 2, 25.

You believe because it's the work of God, John 6, 28, 29. Are you gonna take credit?

Let me ask you, are you gonna take credit for your own believing? This is not where I wanted to go into, just because I know this is like a

Calvinist and Arminius type of thing. And I don't wanna get into that. Are you taking credit for your own believing and trusting in Christ?

I would say I have free will. So my choice to put my faith in Christ is -

Are you taking credit for your own belief in Christ? Yeah.

Okay, so you're arrogant. I just wanna make sure you understood that when Jesus says this is the work of God that you believe, you're taking credit for the work of God in you.

No, it is the work of God, but I had to make that choice. But he grants that you believe.

I disagree. I didn't wanna come in here - I just quoted you

Philippians 1, 29. To you, it has been granted to believe. Not only to accept, but also to believe.

Sure, yeah. So did God grant that you believe? Of course, and it's the work of God. But like I said,

I'm not completely thorough on it, but I would like to come back and talk about Calvinism and all that, but that's not something that was actually prepared for.

Why is it when I quote scripture, you say it's Calvinistic? Well, because it is. Oh, very good.

So scripture is Calvinistic, good. So look, so here's the thing.

It's a Calvinistic interpretation, but just like, I don't have any verses. No, no, I'm trying to say like, I don't have any verses prepared to kind of -

Jiro, Jiro, I didn't interpret it. Jiro, Jiro. Yeah, I'm listening. I didn't interpret it,

I quoted it. You understood it and you rejected it. I rejected your premise, not scripture.

I believe everything in the Bible. My premise is that you believe because God granted you believe,

Philippians 1 .21. My premise is that your believing is the work of God, John 6 .28

.29. My premise is that you're born again, not of your own will, John 1 .13.

Of course. My premise is that whoever's appointed to eternal life are the ones who believe.

Yep, yep. That's Acts 13 .48. So that's why I asked you, do you take credit for your own believing?

Well, it's the work of God, but it's my free choice to believe. If there's a free choice as an unbeliever?

Would you say that again? I misheard. Is it your free choice as an unbeliever to choose Jesus? Of course.

The Bible says we suppress the truth in unrighteousness. It's Romans 1 .18. But the

Bible also says that the unbeliever cannot receive the things of God for their foolishness 1

Corinthians 2 .14. They can't because they're not in the spirit. They don't have the Holy Spirit. It doesn't say that.

It said they're spiritually discerned. It doesn't say they have to have the Holy Spirit. It says they cannot receive them for they are spiritually discerned.

Yeah, that's because they don't have the Holy Spirit though. It says in Philippians, I mean, it says in Romans 3 .10

.11 .12 that the unbelievers is, he does not seek for God and he does no good.

He's a hater of God. Yeah. So you're saying then that an unbeliever can do good things and come to Christ on his own, his own free will.

No, that's not what I'm trying to say. Would you think that unbeliever, do you think him hating

God is of his own doing or did God decree that? Okay, if you wanna get into Calvinism, you're opening up a vat here.

Jump in and swim around for a while. No, no, no, I'm not trying to do that. Okay, God decrees. There's different kinds of decrees and things like that.

But look, God is the one who grants that you believe. Okay, let me clarify something. Do you believe in free will?

Yeah. You do? Yeah. Okay, so it's not

God who predetermines everything. Predestined. Of course it is. Of course it is. Okay, so how could

God decree everything but I have free will? Does Jesus have free will?

Of course he does. Jesus says I can do nothing of my own initiative, John 5 .19. And Jesus willfully submitted to the father.

Yes, he said he could do nothing of his own initiative. He only does what he sees the father do. Did God the father predestine everything that Jesus would do?

I don't know. I would say scripture, that's just kind of like. He says he came, he just said he came to do the will of the father.

Yeah. So did Jesus do whatever the father wanted him to do? Of course.

Did Jesus have free will? Yes. So Jesus demonstrates exactly my position that God the father ordained everything that he would do because he came to do the will of the father, not his own will.

Nevertheless, not my will, but your will be done. Not to do his own will. And yet he had free will. So Jesus' free will operated under the sovereignty of God.

Okay. So you have to understand something. God is sovereign over your free will.

Don't think. I would say God is so sovereign though to give me the free choice to choose to believe or not. You will never choose to believe in him because you're an unbeliever, a slave of sin, a hater of God who can do no good.

His righteous deeds are filthy rags. This is why the Bible says you cannot come to me unless it's been granted to you from the father.

John 6, 65. If, here's the thing, if you have the ability as an unbeliever to come to faith in Christ of your own free will, then why is it necessary that God grant that you believe?

Why is it necessary that God grant that you come to Christ? Revelation, I would say this.

So God gives a revelation, but it's my choice to respond to that revelation or not. Then why is it necessary, if it's your choice, why is it necessary for God to grant that you believe if it's your choice to believe?

Because he has to give revelation because then I don't have a choice. Okay. Why is it necessary for God to grant that you believe if you already have that ability as an unbeliever to believe?

Because he has to grant the revelation. It doesn't say grant revelation, grant that you believe.

Yeah, he has to grant a revelation so that I can make that choice. He doesn't say that.

No, I know, but that's what I'm saying. I'm not trying to twist the Bible. I'm saying this is the way. You are twisting the Bible. No, no,

I'm not, because I'm saying this is how, this is how God reveals himself. He gives revelation and it's dependent upon if I react, it's dependent upon my choice, but God already knows what

I'm gonna do. Are you ready? Yeah. I'm gonna show you something, all right?

Okay, you ready? Yeah, I'm ready. All right.

You have a Bible in front of you? I could just search it up. What's the first or chapter?

Romans 5 .19. Yeah, I got it. Right? Yeah, I got it.

For just as through the disobedience of one man, the many were made sinners, also through the obedience of one man, the many will be made righteous.

I'm gonna teach you something. It says there, as for as through one man's disobedience, the many were made sinners.

Now, Greek is an interesting language. The aorist means it's past tense.

The passive voice means it's an action received, that you're not doing the action, it occurs to you, okay?

Yep. What it says, they were made sinners, it's the aorist passive.

What that means is, here we go, there's a reverse over here. Okay, sorry,

I was prepping something else. What it means is that through Adam's sin, through Adam's sin, right?

It means everyone was made a sinner by his action. Okay? Yep.

All right, Philippians, this is an aorist passive indicative, were made sinners, means the action occurred upon them from something else.

God did it, okay? Now, what about - Hold on, you said God did it? I wish I didn't say that. Actually, I didn't mean that, but they were made sinners, it's more complicated.

No, we'll just leave, we'll just leave. They fell in Adam because of Adam's sin. They were made sinners by the action of Adam.

All right? Did Adam choose to do that action though? Yes, he did. Now, Philippians 129, for to you it has been granted for Christ's sake, not only to believe in him, but also to suffer for his sake.

For it has been granted, is also the aorist passive indicative. If it means in Romans 519, the aorist passive indicative, they were made sinners by an action of somebody else, they received it.

To you it has been granted to believe, it means you received the act of believing because of God's work.

Yeah. That means you were granted by God's belief.

If you can believe as an unbeliever freely of your own free will, why is it that God has to grant it to you?

Yeah, I'm gonna answer this with a question. So would you say

God, the work of God could be God giving a revelation? Like anybody who comes to Christ, it's usually something, it's an encounter, it's study the history of the

Bible or Jesus's life. Would you say that's God doing the work? Because I would.

Absolutely. I agree, but it's my choice whether I believe that or not. Is it believing?

If it's your choice, then why does God have to grant it to you? Because God grants revelation.

It does not say he grants revelation. It says it's been granted that you believe. Why is God granting that you believe?

Because people only believe through revelation. It doesn't say that. Why does God grant that you believe?

No, I know. But people will only believe things by revelation. That's how God grants it. Okay.

It doesn't say that's how God grants it. It says that you're granted to believe. God grants that you believe.

Okay, he grants that you believe? What verse? Philippians 129. Okay, yeah.

Not only to believe in him, but also... Okay, so what's your point?

Because I can't hear you. Very. I couldn't hear what you said. If it's up to your free will as a sinner to believe in Christ, why is it

God has to grant it to you? I guess I don't have an answer for that.

I don't, so... Okay. I'm glad you said that because that's... No, I will study way more into these things.

That's why I didn't really want to get into this. But I just wanted to ask about one saved, always saved, because...

Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Look. You're talking about you're taking credit for walking.

You're the one in your free will. You brought this up. You asked me about free will. I tackled this.

I'm showing you that you don't understand the scriptures because if according to your free will, it's up to you to believe, which is a good thing.

It's a good thing that God has granted you. Now you're taking credit for the work of God and keeping yourself saved by the work of God that you're taking credit for.

No, I'm not taking credit for anything. Yes, you are. No, I'm not. Because if Jesus did what he did,

I couldn't do anything about it. God gets all the glory. He gets all the credit. I can't do anything apart from Christ.

So the fact that Jesus died and allowed me to live this life is him taking all the credit because without that sacrifice, without that revelation,

I couldn't. Then why did you say you take credit for your own believing? Because I do.

It's God's work, but I don't... See, that's why I didn't like the wording you're using because I don't take credit for it.

It was my choice. It wasn't a good work. It was all up to God.

And it was God's choice for me. Okay, so you see, you're inconsistent.

And the reason you're inconsistent, and I don't mean this in a mean way. No, I don't think that way.

Okay, it's because you have an incomplete understanding of the work of God and your relationship to it.

What you do, I don't mean this in a derogatory sense because you're a natural person.

What you're doing is inadvertently thinking in humanistic terminology. So let me exemplify something.

I'm going to trick you by asking you a question that on purpose, I'm gonna try and trick you up.

You're ready? Yeah, I'm ready. Okay, I'm gonna show you that you're humanistic in your thought to some degree.

I'm not saying I'm perfect, don't worry about that. Okay, is free will defined this way?

Free will is the ability to be able to see a good and bad option, right and wrong, be able to accomplish either one and you can choose which one to do.

Yes. Okay, that's where I just tricked you because that definition of free will does not belong to God.

God cannot choose to do anything evil. He can only choose to do that which is good.

I use this illustration all the time to show people that they're humanistic in their theology because they measure truth based on themselves, not

God. It's our natural tendency. So what I did was I told you

I was gonna set you up. I told you I was gonna trick you. I gave you the thing and you fell right into it and I'm explaining it.

I'm not mad at you, I'm not angry, I'm just telling you. No, I know, I know. I'm not taking anything the wrong way. Okay, so the thing is that what you did as so many

Christians do is you're humanistic in your philosophical approach. You automatically and naturally use yourself as a standard of righteousness.

Yeah, good and bad, you have to be able to do both and choose which one. But that means God doesn't fit that definition of free will.

So free will, we have to use God as the standard, not man. Of course. So the standard of free will would then be something like you can only do what you're able to do or what your nature permits you to do.

And of course, it's an unforced, a non -coerced choice consistent with your nature.

That way God, okay, now we got it because God's holy, you can only choose holy things, right?

Yeah. So if an unbeliever has a nature and the Bible tells us the nature that we know that a free will choice can only be made consistent with that nature, right?

But then I would say it wouldn't be free will then. You just admitted what free will was according to what

God's, the definition includes God. That God can only do what is he's able to do what's consistent with his holiness.

Of course, I agree with that, I agree with that. But I don't think your definition of free will is correct. Well, then you have to show me how it's not correct and God has to be the standard.

Yeah, I will. So the definition of free will. Use God as a standard. Yeah, the definition of free will is the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate.

So if God is making this my only two options, even though I choose, he already predestined that and that's my fate, so it's not free will.

Okay, free will. Can God choose to sin? No. Is he constrained by his holy nature?

Yeah. Then free will is the ability to make unforced choices consistent with your nature, right?

No, I would say that's not free will then. I would say that isn't free will. And when you say we have free will,

I don't trust what you're saying. Because that's not the definition of free will. God, does

God have free will? Yes. Define free will as it relates to God.

Okay, well, I can't, I don't know how to define it. I don't know how God, his ways are way above ours, but I would say free will, basic definition.

If it's designed by fate, if we're designed with only two options, then that's not free will because he already decreed that before it happened.

Where'd you get the definition of free will? Search it up.

Where'd you get it? Where did you get it? A secular dictionary. A secular dictionary.

So you did not use the word of God and the theology of God as a standard for your definition.

Your humanism is showing up. Your humanism is showing up again. Okay, but where's the definition of free will in the

Bible? The Bible isn't a dictionary. There is no definition of free will in the Bible. So I have to go to secular sources.

No, no. You go to God's word. Is God the ultimate standard of truth?

Of course. Is the Bible the ultimate standard of truth? Of course, of course.

Is there any authority higher than God? No. So then should you not use a definition that is coming out of God's nature in essence?

Well, there is no definition there. That's the point. Shouldn't you use a definition that is based on God's character, not man's?

It's what we think, but it's not really. The Bible doesn't strictly say this is how

God's. This is how God defines free will, or this is. We're made in the image of God.

We're made in the image of God, Genesis 1 .26, right? It's called the communicable attributes of God. God has a will, we have a will.

God loves, we love. God hates, we hate. It's a communicable attribute. Now, we can relate to God, we have free will.

Our free will is a reflection of his free will, right? Where do you get that from though? The communicable attributes of God are the attributes of God that can be communicated to us.

He loves, we can love. He hates, we can hate. He thinks, we can think. The incommunicable attributes are the attributes of God that cannot be communicated to us.

God is infinite, we are not. God has all knowledge, we do not.

The incommunicable attributes represent or reflect his transcendence. The communicable attributes reflect his imminence and is how it relates to the created order.

We are in the created order. We must always use God as a standard. God says, be holy for I am holy, 1

Peter 1 .16. Be perfect as your father in heaven is perfect, Matthew 5 .48. God is the standard.

Therefore, if you're gonna define something as important as free will, you must turn to God and his word for the standard.

Since God cannot lie and yet he has free will, he's free, then we have to have a definition that's consistent with God's nature.

If you don't, you're adopting humanism. When you adopt humanistic principles, you will end up in error.

You need to go with what God's revelation says. We know that God is holy.

He can only act in a holy manner, right? Yep. So does

God have free will? Yeah. Then his free will requires holy action, right?

Yeah, because God can't lie or say. Right, Titus 1 .2, he cannot lie.

So free will is now defined as that, to be able to freely do what you wanna do, but it has to be consistent with your nature.

God's holy, he can only do holy things. So an unbeliever has free will and he can only do what's consistent with his nature.

It's simple. The unbeliever is a hater of God who does no good, doesn't seek for God, Romans 3, 10, 11, and 12.

He's by nature a child of wrath, Ephesians 2 .3, deadness, trespasses, and sins, Ephesians 2 .1.

His heart's desperately wicked and deceitful, cannot be trusted, Jeremiah 17 .9. His righteous deeds are filthy rags,

Isaiah 64 .6. He's a slave of sin, Romans 6, 14 through 20.

He cannot receive spiritual things, 1 Corinthians 2 .14. So the nature of the unbeliever is such he's incapable.

That's what the Bible teaches about the unbeliever. This is why the Bible says he has to be granted belief, granted it,

Philippians 1 .29. Granted repentance, 2 Timothy 2 .25. Appointed to eternal life,

Acts 13 .48. We're born again, not of our own will, John 1 .13. Caused to be born again, 1

Peter 1 .3. We have to be granted the act of coming to Christ. That's by God. That's John 6 .65.

Yeah, I agree with all that. Good, I'm glad you do. Now, do you take credit for your own believing?

No, I already said that. Good, so then God's the one who works the belief in you. You're giving him the glory, and yet you're going to say that you keep your salvation by the goodness you have and that you perform in your own action.

Well, we'd have to keep, we'd have to expand on that because you said we can only work according to our nature. So it would assume if Jesus says we have to obey him or you have to walk in the light, then we have a choice there to work according to the revelation

God has given us. Yeah, we're regenerate. Of course. And now we can choose to sin and not sin.

An unbeliever can only choose to sin. Yep. So now that you're regenerate, you're trusting in Christ, and you say you're no longer taking credit for your believing, though you are the one who believes, that's another topic, you have to understand

God grants this to you. Now what you're doing is taking credit for your ability to keep yourself right with God and keep yourself saved by your good work of walking in the light, which you've already admitted that loving

God and loving your neighbor is that, and yet Paul says we're justified without that.

So how is it that you could be justified without walking by loving God and loving your neighbor, and yet you have to walk in the light to be justified?

Okay, yeah, yeah. So that's a good point. So what verse is it that Paul said that we're not justified by the works of the law?

Because I don't know. Romans 3 28. Romans 3 28. So the Greek word for faith is pistis, and it's used synonymously with living faithful to God.

So faith isn't just a one -time thing. It's a faithful life to God also, because they're both used in one at the same.

Yeah, I know, but this ties in with that, because I'm not saying that any of that justifies me.

Well, wait a minute. Is walking in the light justifying you? No, my faith is. So you walk in the light is just faith?

Yeah, it is. That's all it is. So why does it say walk in the light? Why does it just say if you believe? Because in order to believe, like belief doesn't just mean, like the

Bible says the devils believe in God. Yeah, James 2 19. Yeah, it's that trust.

It's that real trust in Jesus. So then is walking in the light simply believing?

No. Then what is walking in the light? You said to walk in the light was to love

God and love your neighbor. Is that just believing? Well, I said I took that back. I would say walking in the light is obeying

Jesus. I said that like a while ago. Okay, so obeying Jesus, is that how you keep yourself saved? By obeying

Jesus? Yeah, my faith in Jesus. But like I said, the Greek root pistis ties in synonymously with that.

You quoted John 13 34 early, a new commandment I give to love one another. So you have to love one another in order to be saved, right?

No, I never said that. I said your faith. You just need to walk in the light to be saved, to keep yourself right. And you said a new command, you gotta obey that.

No, no, no, no, I'm not saying that. I'm saying faith will cause you to walk in the light. But for example, someone who's on their deathbed isn't gonna have that chance to really work out their salvation.

So that's when - Are they saved? Yeah, of course they're saved. Well, it depends if the faith is genuine. Yeah, of course, yeah.

If God grants it to them, then it's a good and perfect gift, James 1 17. So then you're teaching justification by faith alone in Christ alone, right?

Yeah. Not by walking in the light in order to keep yourself right with him, right? Where's the evidence of your faith come from though?

How do you know if your faith is genuine? James 2 14 through 26 talks about the evidence of faith manifested in our works.

It's not our works that save us. It's not the faith and the works that save us. That's Roman Catholicism, which will say that you have to do good works to prove your faith and that faith will save you.

And there's what's called congruent and condign merit. And what they teach is that God, he obligates himself to be able to reward you for the good work that you do, but he doesn't owe you salvation or a good kind reward, but he obligates himself to do that.

And since he obligates himself by your work, then you could be saved. And so what it is is you still have to work in order to get

God's promise where he obligates himself to get it, the connection is still your work, which is why the

Roman Catholic Church has in paragraph 2068, we maintain that a man is justified by faith. I mean, that you obtain salvation through faith, baptism, and the observance of the commandments.

Because even though they teach condign and congruent merit are based on God's character and his obligation, self -obligation to be able to save somebody or reward them for the good and grace that comes from him by the basis of their work, they don't earn it.

Yet they also teach that you do. They're inconsistent because what they wanna do is have their cake and eat it too.

They wanna be able to say that faith is something that justifies them, but you have to do good works in order to be saved.

You are teaching Roman Catholic theology. And you don't - I'm not, I already said I'm not. I said, faith is the only thing that saves you, but that genuine faith will have you walking it out.

But for example, someone who's about to die, like the people on the cross - That's what the Catholics are saying. That's what the Catholics say. Yeah, I'm not saying work saves you.

And that faith saves you. You have to have it. I'm telling you, I've been studying Catholicism for decades.

You're teaching the same thing they do. This is how it really works. Justified by faith alone in Christ alone, the faith that God grants to us.

I agree. By faith alone. That's what, and once we're in, we're guaranteed to stay in because Christ will not lose any, period.

Because he canceled the sin that at the cross, Colossians 2 .14, but we're justified when we believe.

He doesn't lose any. The reason you walk in the light is because of what Christ has done and his life in you.

It's the walk of the light that demonstrates to ourselves and others that we are in him, but it's not walking that justifies us or keeps us in.

Okay, so what if I was a Christian? I said, well, obviously I am, but what if I said as a Christian, I believe, but I'm not walking in the light.

I'm not obeying Jesus. Will I still go to heaven? 1 John 2 .4, just read the next chapter over. If you say you know him and don't keep his commandments, the truth is not in you and you're a liar.

True faith has true works, but it's not the faith in the works. That's what I'm trying to say. It's not the faith in the works that save you.

It's faith alone in Christ alone. Yeah, I agree. That's what I've been trying to articulate. Then why are you saying you have to walk in the light in order to be saved?

No, I'm saying your genuine faith will have you walking in the light. And if you don't, by what the Bible says, you can't be walking in darkness and be saved.

That's correct. Okay, so that's my point. But I believe. Okay, so let me ask you.

And you can't backslide and walk in the darkness. Yeah, go ahead. So you lust at this, you know, you're just a guy who's picking something here.

You lust after this one same woman you work with, and you have to keep working. She has to keep working.

And you keep saying, you keep falling into this. And then on the way home from the, on the freeway, you get

PO'd at the people who don't know how to drive. And you continually, you know, do these sinful things.

So are you walking in the light? I would, so let's say this, let's say you're lusting after a woman and you go to work, but the next day, you know, that same woman is going to be there, correct?

And Jesus said, cut your hand off if it causes you to sin. So if I'm going there willfully knowing that she's going to be there and I'm not doing anything to prevent it, then

I'm disobeying Jesus, because I'm not, I'm not. She's your boss. Maybe find a new job or just learn how to cover your eyes.

Okay, and drive a new freeway. A fruit of the spirit of self -control. You have to be able to not look at that woman lustfully.

And that's a fruit. That's the obedience that... Do you understand the point I'm trying to make?

You have a standard. When the lawyer came to Jesus and said, what good thing must

I do to be saved? He answered him according to what he required, what he asked.

The way of Jesus was to say, well, what does the law say, Mr. Lawyer? And the law said, and he said, you're right.

Now go do more of this. He couldn't do it. I'm just simply saying your standard is you have to walk in the light to keep yourself saved.

This means you're keeping yourself saved by your effort. Well, isn't that what the text implies? No. Okay, so we just said the next chapter says if you walk in darkness, you're a liar and you don't know him.

Yeah. So then... Does it say that you... Does it say that walking in the light is what keeps you saved?

Or is it saying walking in the light reveals what you are, walking in darkness reveals what you are? It's kind of a loaded question, but I would say to you, like, so you do, you're basically saying the same thing

I am. You are, because... No. If David walked in the light, is he himself walking in the light?

Now who's the he himself? Jesus. So you have to walk in the light the same level and standard that he did, right?

Well, yeah, I have to obey his commands. Okay, are you walking in the light the same level as Jesus did?

Are you doing that? Well, of course not, nobody can. Well, then you're not walking in the light, are you? No, I am, because obeying

Jesus is something that's possible. And that's what I'm doing. He says, if we walk in the light as he himself is in the light.

Yeah, and he's in the light because he obeyed the father perfectly and we have to obey Jesus now. Now what's the light?

Holiness. Where does it say holiness? Faithfulness, faithfulness. Where does it say that? Well, you're not living faithfully to Jesus if you're disobeying him.

I would say that's correct. Okay, yeah, so that's what I'm saying. Okay, you're saying that and you have to walk in holiness now, right?

Yeah. Okay, are you walking in holiness? Yes. So you're walking in holiness the same level as Jesus, right?

No, no, I never said that. I literally never said that. I said obeying Jesus is walking in the light.

And I get that you're saying we have to - No, no, no, holiness. Holiness, what's the standard of holiness you have?

Is it God or yourself? It's God, of course it's God. Are you walking in the level of holiness that God requires?

According to Jesus, yeah. So you're walking according to the same level of holiness that Jesus did.

No, we're not on the same, like I'm not perfect. Jesus was, of course I'm not. I'm not saying - You're not walking in holiness as Jesus is a standard.

No, Jesus gave us a standard and those were his commands. The standard is God. Jesus is

God. The standard is God. Yes, God says, be holy for I am holy. That's the standard.

Are you walking in holiness at the standard that God requires? Of course, that was revealed through Jesus.

Is Jesus the perfect example of what it means to walk in holiness? 100%.

So are you walking in holiness according to the standard that Jesus set? By obeying his commands, yes.

So you are walking in perfect obedience to the holiness of Christ by obeying his commands.

No, no, no. You're not? Never said that. So Jesus says, love your neighbor or love each other, one another, are you doing that?

Yeah, of course, but sometimes I slip up and that's the wall. So is a standard of God perfection or imperfection?

It's perfection. So are you gonna continue in your humanistic philosophy to insert it in the word of God?

Or are you gonna repent? Because what you're doing is you're saying that the standard of God is holiness unless it applies to you.

Unless it applies to you. Because if you try, that's okay. But if you fail, that's okay because you're supposed to be at the command, but you really can't because that's the standard of Jesus, but you really can't do it.

But yet you're also walking in holiness. No, I'm trying to say, like Jesus takes the burden of perfection away from us, but he also didn't lead us into lawlessness.

You're not hearing, you're not listening. You're not listening, you're not listening. You don't listen.

The standard of holiness - No, I know, Connor, but you talk pretty fast. The standard of holiness is God himself, right?

Yes, revealed through Jesus. Is Jesus the perfect example of holiness?

Yes. Is Jesus the standard of holiness? Yes. Is your holiness standard the same as Jesus?

Not at all. So then you have a different standard of holiness than Jesus does? Wait, are you talking about like how

I view holiness or like my holiness - What's your standard of holiness? What's your standard of holiness?

Jesus, I just said this. Okay, so then you're obligated to follow the standard of Jesus according to his level, not yours.

Of course, of course. We're all - So the level is the same level of Jesus, you're to be holy, and the same level of Jesus is holy, right?

Yeah, and I would say that comes with a, like, you're not gonna instantly, as you become a Christian, you're not gonna -

Are you keeping the level of holiness at the same level as Jesus did?

No, but I'm keeping his commands, and that's the standard - If you're keeping his command, if you're keeping his command, then you're keeping the level of holiness.

Yeah. So then you are keeping it at the same level as Jesus. No. Then you're not keeping the level of Jesus and you're not keeping the holiness.

That's a standard of his character. Well, we said walking in the light is holiness, and that verse, 1

John 1, 17 says, the blood of Jesus covers you from sin. Okay. So I'm holy because of Jesus, because he -

Jero, Jero. What's happening here is called cognitive dissonance. You can't see your own contradiction in what you kind of do, and then it's evidence because you've stopped the conversation flow, the logical necessity, and you jump left and right.

This means that you are holding on to irrationality. I'm trying to expose to you your own inconsistency.

You're not using God as a standard. You're using your own ability as a standard. This is what the cults and false religions do.

I'm not calling you a cultist. I'm not calling you - Yeah, I don't understand. Just saying, you don't understand this, but this is what the false religions do.

And that, you know, we all make mistakes, but I'm saying you don't realize your humanistic philosophy is embedded in your own heart and mind, and you're shoving it upon the scriptures.

If you're gonna use 1 John 1 .7 as the standard of holiness, walk in the light as he himself is in the light, the standard is

Jesus, you're gonna fail. Well, that verse implies that we still sin, and that's the point

I'm trying to make, is 1 John 1 .7 says it covers us from the sin that we are going to commit.

The blood of Jesus cleanses us from sin, right? From all sin, and that's what I'm trying, like if we're walking in the light -

All sin, can I ask you? And I - Can I ask you? Yeah, go ahead. All sin, does that mean past, present, future?

Of course, of course, as long as I'm walking in the light, though. So the cleanliness of God's blood upon you depends on you walking in the light.

That's what that verse says. That's not what it says, and you are incredibly arrogant.

How does it not say that? It says if we walk in the light, that's conditional. You're saying that the blood of Christ, you're saying the blood of Christ becomes efficacious based on your performance.

Yeah, yeah, that is what I'm saying. Yeah, you are an arrogant fool at this point. Sure. I'm not name -calling,

I'm informing. You're arrogant because you think, you're arrogant because you think you can perform holiness on the same level as Jesus.

And by definition, that's foolishness. That's not what I said. You're saying, you're saying -

Understanding what I'm saying. You already admitted. You said - No, that's not what

I said at all, and that's not what I'm trying to say. You said, I asked you, is the blood of Christ is to become efficacious dependent on your ability, on your work?

You said yes. Yeah, I said yes. The efficaciousness of the blood atonement of Christ is not dependent on your ability.

It's dependent on Christ, His ability, what He did. He canceled the sin that at the cross, not you.

It's not dependent on your ability. It's dependent upon Him. Yeah, I agree.

No, I agree, but what I'm trying to say is that - You can't agree. No, I do. As Christians -

And hold them both positions. You cannot say, no, listen.

You cannot say that the blood of Christ, you cannot say the blood of Christ becomes efficacious by your performance and also say that it's independent of your performance.

Okay, so - Okay, sure. So can we both agree that when you're walking in the darkness, the blood of Jesus isn't covering you from sin?

Okay, if you're not hearing me, you're avoiding. You're doing the same thing that the cults do. No, I'm not avoiding.

I'm actually, I'm trying to get it down here. That's why I'm asking you this question. So would you say, of course, if you're not walking in light, you're walking in darkness, and if you're walking in darkness, you don't have the blood of Jesus covering you from sin?

No, that's not true. You wouldn't say that? You understand something. You understand something. You understand something.

If I'm not perfect tonight, it doesn't invalidate the efficacious atonement of Christ. I agree.

I agree. That's what I've been saying. His efficacious atonement is not dependent on my performance. Those who walk in darkness are not saved.

They're not - Yeah, I agree, I agree, I agree. That's what it's, if we walk in darkness, we have fellowship, we walk, excuse me, if we walk in light, like we have fellowship with him.

We're walking in that. Christians can walk in light and have fellowship, and they can walk in darkness to a certain degree and break that fellowship.

It doesn't mean that God abandons us, and it does not invalidate the atoning sacrifice of Christ. So you can walk in darkness and still be saved?

Yes, I do it all the time. Yeah, five, six, seven seconds, a minute or two minutes.

I might have a dream that shouldn't be, I shouldn't be dreaming. I might see a woman in lust after it,

I shouldn't lust. I might be angry at my brother or somebody on the road because they can't drive right, which is a problem

I'm dealing with, because they don't know how to drive right. You know, I'm here, you know, it's like, oh, what are you doing? And I get,

I shouldn't be upset with them. Am I walking in light at that point? No, I'm not. Am I suddenly lost my salvation?

Of course not. Hold on, hold on. Let me clarify one thing quick. 1 John 1, 7 isn't holding the standard of light to being perfect, because it already implies that we still will sin, because it says the blood of Jesus will cover you from all sin.

So it's talking about, if I'm walking in the light, I would say that, yeah, but if I'm walking in darkness, that isn't repentant sin.

That's not living faithful to God. Can you look at the next verse? You're gonna have to give me a sec.

If we say we have no sin, we're deceiving ourselves that the truth is not in us.

We, is John the apostle including himself in that? Yeah, of course, of course.

So if he were to say he has no sin, that would mean the truth is not in him? Yeah, he's a liar. Okay, so he says, if we confess our sins, he's faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness, right?

Yeah, but would a person walking in darkness do that though? They won't.

So let me ask you. That's my point. Let me ask you, and they won't because they're not saved. Let me ask you, if we confess.

Hold on, hold on, one sec. Didn't you just say you can walk in darkness and be saved? Yes, in the sense.

That's a huge contradiction. In the sense of momentary lapses and things like that. No, because you're not understanding.

1 John 1 .7 isn't talking. It already implies you're gonna have mess ups.

Walking in darkness is a completely different thing. You're saying the same thing I'm saying. You call it mess ups, right?

Yeah, sure, sin, of course. That's how I see it. Can you look at verse nine? Yeah, one sec.

If we confess our sins, he's faithful and just to forgive us our sins. Do you have to confess your sins in order to be forgiven?

No. But why does it say, why does it say if we confess them, he'll forgive?

Because you ought to confess your sins. But for example, if I sin, like that verse said, if I'm already walking in the light, then the blood of Jesus is already on me and I'm forgiven already.

But you just said Christians can walk in darkness. Don't take it out of context.

No, I'm not. But you said Christians can walk in a certain amount of darkness, correct? Yeah, five seconds, 10 seconds, get upset with this or that.

We're not talking about habitual walking away from the truth. We're talking about momentary lapses and things like that.

That's the point, Matt. That's the point. He's equivocating on practicing sin, okay?

The way it's given in the Greek is it's an ongoing participial construction, a lifestyle, a manner of conducting your life.

If that's your manner of life, it indicates there's no regeneration. And the cleansing from all sin that Jesus does for us is also given in a participial construction.

It's an ongoing work that he's involved in right now, every day for the believer. 100%.

Every minute for the believer in my case. So don't equivocate on this word, practice sin, live in sin, walk in darkness.

If you're doing that habitually as a lifestyle, it indicates you're not regenerate.

Use the words the way this scripture uses them in their context.

Yeah, I know. In the meaning the author was trying to convey to the audience, a plain meaning and it's airtight.

And you've lost this one, Jairo. I'm not here to win or lose. I'm here to just ask these scriptures because I've heard these.

Actually, we're gonna do a slight correction. It's not participial there in 1

John 1, 7. But in the English, excuse me, in the Greek present tense, there's a slight hint of it.

That's how Greek works a little bit in that present area. That's why the previous verse, because Chuck's on the right path.

He says, those who practice it. That's, Chuck is right. That's the issue.

We're practicing - A participial construction is the closest thing we have in English to describe how they're doing it in the Greek. The Greek's a lot more precise, yes.

Right, right. And so the thing is, I'm trying to get this guy to see, justification by faith alone in Christ alone and it's maintained because of God's faithfulness to us, not our faithfulness to him.

That's the key. Gyro, G or whatever you pronounce it. Your faithfulness to God is not what makes the blood of Christ efficacious.

That is independent. It's independent of your ability. That's why you can't say walking in the light is what keeps you saved because you have to have a continued action of cleansing of sin in order to keep yourself saved.

And that can't work that way. Make sense? Yeah. Okay. You gotta think about this.

No, I really am. And that's why I'm out here. But I just don't, I just, it's just pretty confusing because -

Let me help you out. Let me give you something and then you can work with it. I just have a few questions that I could ask just quickly.

Okay, go ahead. So walking in darkness, in the next chapter, 1

John 1, I believe it is, walking in darkness, would you say those people are saved or aren't saved? Oh, it's not 1

John 1, 8. 1 John 1, 8 or 1, 9. If we say we have those sin, we're deceiving ourselves.

The truth of that is, if we confess our sins - 1 John 1, 7. 1 John 1, 7.

If we walk in the light and see themselves in the light, we have fellowship with one another and the blood of Christ cleanses from all sin. Yeah, hold on.

You mean verse six. If we say we have fellowship with him and yet walk in darkness, we lie, do not practice the truth.

Yeah. Yeah, if you say you're a Christian and you're not walking as one, you're a liar.

That's all. Yeah, I agree. But my point is that a Christian does have that choice to stop, and this is where really the big difference is.

I believe that a Christian does have the choice to stop walking in the light and they can walk in the darkness because in the beginning of that verse, it says if.

Okay. If we walk in the light. Then you can lose your salvation, right?

Yeah. Okay, and so if you lose your salvation, then Jesus lost you, right?

No, you lost Jesus. The will of the Father is that Jesus lose none.

Did Jesus lose any? No, you lost Jesus. Jesus didn't lose you because he didn't stay faithful.

You lost Jesus? Okay, do you realize how you just perverted the word of God to make it fit what you want?

I didn't, but you can explain how, sure. Jesus says, this is the will of the Father who sent me that all he has given me,

I lose none. The will of the Father is that Jesus lose none, right? Yeah.

And that he raise him up. And that he raise him up, right? Yeah. That's verse 39.

Verse 40, this is the will of my Father who sent me that everyone who believes in me will have everlasting life and I will raise him up.

The will of the Father is that whoever believes will have everlasting life and be resurrected by Jesus.

Of course. You're saying that everyone who believes is not necessarily true, that Jesus won't resurrect him and he won't have eternal life because he could lose you.

I'm saying true belief. Like an atheist believes it could believe in Jesus, but true belief will come with faith.

And that true faith will come with works. Jesus says the will of the Father is that Jesus lose none.

And the will of the Father is that all who believe in him will have everlasting life. And that he'll be raised. Believe in him in what sense though?

God grants that we believe. So it's the belief God grants. It's sufficient for us to believe and be saved.

God's will is that of those, Jesus not lose any. You're the one who says

Jesus will lose them. And then what you try and do is say, no, you lose yourself.

No, I say you lose Jesus because you do. Okay, you lose Jesus. And why does

God say he'll never leave us or forsake us? For the believers. John, in Hebrews 13, five or 12, five.

Jesus says, my sheep hear my voice. I give eternal life to them and they shall never perish. If you go a few verses back, it says, my sheep hear my voice and they follow me.

Yes, and they follow me. So you have to follow Jesus to be a sheep, correct? Oh, that's how you become a sheep, by obedience?

No, that's how you are a sheep. You are a sheep by what you do, right?

Well, let's get the verse. No, you just said it. You're a sheep by what you do, right?

So your works are what changes you. My sheep listen to my voice. I know them and they follow me. So you're not his sheep if you don't follow him.

Do you agree? No, it doesn't say you're not a sheep if you don't follow him. It's not what it says, but you're correct.

If you don't follow him, you're not a sheep, right? Yes. So is following him how you become a sheep?

No, if you want to be literal, verse 27. My sheep listen to my voice. And then they follow me.

I know them and they follow me, yeah. Yeah, I know them means they're saved. They follow because they're sheep, not to become sheep.

Yeah, okay. That's why they follow, because of what they already are. Yeah, I agree.

So it's not that they have to obey in order to be sheep. They have to walk in the light in order to keep themselves right with God. But what is the evidence that they are sheep?

That they follow? Yeah, true believers follow.

True believers work, do good works. But it's not the following, it's not the following or the good works that keeps them saved.

So can you not follow Jesus and still be saved? No, if you're not following Jesus, you're not saved.

Okay, I understand what you're saying though. That could have been cleared up a lot longer ago. I tried so many different ways to get this through to you.

Well, I was pretty much saying the same thing. I really was. No, we're not. No, we're not. No, we're not.

You teach, no. You teach, you can lose your salvation. I don't.

Well, I don't teach. I think you can. What happened on the phone thing here with the...

Okay, Charlie, you gotta put, there we go. You lost one of your feeds. Yeah, my phone's gonna go out.

I should, it should still stay because it's almost out of charge, but that's okay. So look, you're the one teaching.

This is important, why I'm taking so long. Who's that? How did it do that?

Wow, that's weird. Okay, that's weird. So you're saying, Test? Yeah, I can hear you,

I can hear you. Okay, you're saying that you keep your salvation by what you do.

Yeah. Okay, all right.

So I hope you are good enough to keep yourself right with the infinitely holy God. As long as I'm walking and obeying

Jesus. Good, as long as you're obeying Jesus, obeying what he says, as long as the standard of your salvation is your ability to be able to walk with him.

It's the standard of Jesus, not me. No, no, no, it's not the standard of Jesus. Yes, it is, those are his commands.

His standard is perfection. And he gave us commands to abide by and to lose.

Are you being, his standard is perfection. Are you being perfect in it? No. Then you're not following Jesus perfectly, are you?

I never said, no, I never said that, I never said that. You said you had to follow Jesus, the perfect standard, right?

You have to follow Jesus and keep his commandments, but it says - Are you keeping his commandments? Yeah, I was gonna say, it says, if you sin, the blood of Jesus covers you from it because you are walking in the light.

Are you keeping his commandments? Yes. On the standard of Jesus?

I'm keeping the commandments that are written in the Bible that were spoken by Jesus to his sheep.

So how good are you at it? So you're keeping them, right? Are you keeping them on the standard of Jesus? Pardon?

Are you keeping the standard that Jesus has according to the will of Jesus, the standard who is

Jesus? Are you keeping the commands on that level? I'm keeping Jesus's commands, but like I said, we all stumble, and that's why walking in the light covers the stumble.

Does keeping the commands mean keeping it all the time or part of the time? Is keeping the,

I think we lost him. Oh no, he's there. No, no, no, my brother came in quick. Anyways, what were you saying?

Is keeping the standard of God your standard or God's standard? It's Jesus's standard.

So the standard's perfection, right? It's his commands. I think Jesus's commands are perfect. It's the standard's perfection, right?

Yeah, because Jesus's commands are perfect. Are you keeping the standard of Jesus perfectly? No. Then by your own words, you're condemned.

No, I'm not. Because walking in the light already implies you're not going to fall perfect, and that's what

I've been saying. No, it doesn't say walking in the, it does not say that there. First John 1 .7

says, if you do, the blood of Jesus covers you from all sin. Okay. So it's not perfection he's talking about.

We're going in circles. This is the point when I say you're just being incoherent. You need to have the true gospel presented to you.

The true gospel, I'm gonna tell you what it is. The true gospel is that Jesus Christ is

God in flesh who perfected, who perfectly kept the law. He never sinned, 1

Peter 2 .22. Yep. He did everything necessary, not you, him.

And that you are justified before God by your faith in Christ alone. That faith, which

God grants to you, Philippians 1 .29, is what justifies you. Yeah, I agree, except for one part.

God does not remove the faith from you that he grants to you. He, and the standard of perfection is

God himself, which you cannot keep, but Jesus did. Yeah, yeah. So your faith has to be all in Christ or not all in Christ.

Your faith is not all in Christ. Yes, it is. No, it's not. Because you have faith in your ability to keep the commandments in order to be saved.

Therefore, it's not all in Christ. Absolutely not. Yes, it is, as you said. No, it isn't, because like I said -

I'm listening. Is this what he's saying, folks? No, no. That's what he's saying. That's not what I'm saying. The Greek word faith also implies to be faithful to Christ.

One person says you sound like a Mormon. You lagged out,

I couldn't hear you. You sound like a cultist, a

Mormon, a Roman Catholic, which look, we're justified by faith alone in Christ alone.

You're so close to being one. He doesn't realize. Tell you what, you do this,

I can use the restroom too. Go ahead, tackle him a little bit. Hey, Hero, I've got a question for you.

Sure, go ahead. In the book of Galatians, they were all saved by faith through grace, but then they added the

Judaizers wanted to add circumcision. And Paul commented on them that they're adding a work to their walk with Christ.

And he called that, he told them that if you add any kind of a ceremony or any kind of human physical performance, the cross itself becomes a stumbling block.

Can you give me the verse for that, please? Look in the book of Galatians chapter three. I just want the verse where it says, anything you do.

Just that one verse, please. Hold on just a second. Well, he didn't use the word anything.

What I said was they were adding... Words of the law. They were adding a work of any kind, okay?

Hold on just a second. He's already talking to Christians. So now he's talking about the

Christian life and the fact that they came along and said, there was something else you have to do. Yeah, which was circumcision, which is a work of the law.

And it says we're not justified. It doesn't matter whether it's a, it doesn't matter if it's a work of the law.

It's still something they did. All right. And he equated that.

But the point isn't that they're doing stuff. It's that they're adding circumcision, which is the work of the law to justify them.

That is not what I'm saying at all. I understand that. That's, if you hear my argument, you'll understand it, okay?

Oh yeah, continue. Let me see here. We're talking Galatians. Maybe I got it.

I thought it was, was it chapter five?

I'm sorry. My mistake, it's chapter five. Okay, Galatians chapter five?

Right. Yeah, okay. Go ahead. So anything that they did would take away from the fact that they were

Christians, right? Well, what were they doing? That's what we got to clarify. The Judaizers were trying to get them to become circumcised, right?

Which is a work of the law, yeah. Okay, well, irregardless of whether it's the law, it's still an act of man, right?

Yeah, yeah, of course. Okay. So look at Galatians 5, 6.

For in Christ neither circumcision nor circumcision means anything, but faith working through love.

Okay. So he continues on and when he gets to 11, he says, if I preach circumcision, which is any kind of a work done by man, why am

I still being persecuted? Why are they still criticizing him? Because if you add anything to it, the stumbling block of the cross has been abolished.

See, the principle here is that anytime you do anything beyond the cross of Christ, you are adding a stumbling block.

And that's what you've done to yourself. No, you can't look at the cross and say it's completely sufficient.

It does everything in all capacities, in all contexts. No, I do believe that. Because you can't look at it and say, there's zero

I can do to either save myself or to keep myself saved. You have to say, you have to follow commandments.

You have to do the same thing that Judaizers are doing, which is adding a commandment of some kind.

Let me just clarify quickly. I was saying, faith is the only thing that saves you. I've already said that.

I'm not adding anything to that. My words cannot save me. No, no, no, no, no. These people were already saved.

They're putting something else in there. And Paul is saying that if you put just this one example, circumcision in there, which is an act of man, a work of man, it doesn't matter whether it's a work of the law, it's still a work.

If you add that, the cross is no longer a stumbling block because man is adding his own works.

And this is the problem with what you're doing. You don't realize that you're looking at the cross.

And even for unbelievers, the cross is a stumbling block. They can't get over how it is the cross is completely self -sufficient in all capacities, past, present and future.

They think, and Christians, unfortunately, like you, think that there still has to be something you have to do to deal with your present and your future.

And what you're doing is the cross has now become your stumbling block. The cross is self -sufficient.

It's completed, it's done. It doesn't matter what works you do. They don't lose your salvation and they don't keep it and they don't add anything to it.

Somehow or another, you think that you can throw the idea of works in there and it fits in one of those categories, but not for your salvation, for other purposes.

And that's what Paul is addressing with the Judaizers who are saying there's something you have to do to show or to add to or to do something that the cross is not sufficient.

Yeah. Do you understand that principle? I get what you're saying, but I just, I don't think -

Okay, that's what I wanted to say. Thanks for bearing with me. I do. I just believe when you're living faithfully to Christ, you'll obey

Him. It doesn't matter what you, listen, it doesn't matter what you think you believe. What matters is understand what

Paul is doing to somebody that wanted to add any kind of works or any kind of purpose.

He said the cross became a stumbling block. Because they're adding works of the law though.

It doesn't matter if it's a work of the law. Well, I would say -

It's still a, it's who's doing the work? Is the law doing the work or is man doing it?

No, you're doing the work, but it's the work you're doing. That's right. They were adding works onto the law to justify it. Is circumcision a work of man?

Yeah, it's a work. Then it isn't a work. And Paul is saying that basically, and he's just using this one example because that was the problem, that that work makes the cross a stumbling block to them because they can't accept it.

They've got to do, they got to look at what Christ did and what man is going to do, not just the cross itself.

That's why it becomes a stumbling block because people can't understand how simple it is.

It's already done, it's completed. There's nothing we can add to it. I agree.

There's nothing we can add to take it away or maintain it. Once we're in - Yeah, it's only our faith, only our faith, but having faith also means to live faithfully.

But I know, but the thing is, is that faith itself is a transcendent idea. The faith itself by itself is not a work.

What you're doing is you're adding a work and saying, well, the fact that I'm adding a work because I have faith, that's what makes the difference.

And it doesn't make the difference in either your salvation, getting it or maintaining it. It just proves before man that you have faith.

That's all. Okay, yeah, I hear what you're saying. All right, now

Jake's gonna - Thank you. Is it

Hero or Jiro? It's Jiro, yeah. Jiro. Nice to meet you. I'm Jake.

Nice to meet you. Can I take you - Can I take you to Philippians 3 really quick?

Yeah, go ahead. So in Philippians 3, Paul is talking a bit about his past.

He says, though I myself have reason for confidence in the flesh, also if anyone else thinks he has reason for confidence in the flesh,

I have more. Circumcised on the eighth day of the people of Israel, the tribe of Benjamin, a

Hebrew of Hebrews, is to the law, a Pharisee, is to zeal, a persecutor of the church, as to righteousness under the law, blameless.

But whatever gain I had, I counted as lost for the sake of Christ.

Indeed, I count everything as lost because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus, my Lord. For his sake,

I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish in order that I may gain Christ.

And here's kind of the key verse is right here in verse nine, where he says, and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God.

That depends on faith. Yes, I agree, not through the law. Says the ex -mormon. So when you're talking about maintaining salvation by anything that you could do, walking in the light, anything you could do that would make you maintain that.

Sure. You're looking to your own righteousness, righteousness which comes from the law, not the righteousness which comes through faith.

The righteousness which comes through faith is imputed. It's from Jesus Christ. And it's his righteousness that we're credited as.

So could I ask you something? Yeah. So is obeying Jesus a work of the law? Is obeying

Jesus a work of the law? Which law? You said the verse you just read talked about the law and the law is referring to the 13

Mosaic laws. So I'm asking you, is obeying Jesus a work of the law?

Which law? No, I'm not talking about Old Testament. I'm saying like, is obeying

Jesus currently, is that a work of the law? What do you mean by obeying Jesus? The standard in Matthew 5, 48 would be,

Jesus says be perfect, therefore as your father in heaven, which is perfect. I didn't quote that quite right.

That's all good. But what I'm trying to say is, for example, when Jesus gives a new command, that's not a command that's found in the law.

So is obeying that new command a work of the law? And you just said it was, but I'm not saying it is.

Where did I say that it was? I was asking you earlier, he was talking to you about that. Yeah, I know.

But my point is that obeying Jesus is not a work of the law because we're not under the law.

We're under grace. Therefore, when I obey Jesus, not to be saved, but because I am saved, it's not a work of the law.

It's being faithful because the Greek word faithful, pistis, also is used synonymously with faithful.

So faith isn't a one -time thing. Faith is current. Ongoing with continuous effects.

Yeah, ongoing. Faith is ongoing. Okay, so we are continuously trusting in Christ. And because we say we're part of the vine, we bear fruit, correct?

Yeah, we have to bear fruit, but you can't do anything apart from Jesus. But obeying Jesus -

I'd agree with that. Because we're justified by our faith and we do good works.

And that is evidence to men of our faith. But before God, those works don't do anything.

And if we have true faith - I disagree because Revelation 3 - I'm sorry, what?

Revelation 3 .5 says to believers, if they don't overcome, their names will be blotted out of the book of life.

That implies - We've already talked about you. Why are you... You're bringing this back up, but you're saying that you agree the righteousness from God that depends on faith.

So why are you looking to righteousness from your works? I'm not looking for righteousness dependent upon my works.

It's dependent upon Jesus. It's dependent upon my faith, but I don't think you guys understand what

I'm saying about faith. Is that faith - I don't think I am. Can you please explain? So for example, those

Christians Jesus talks to in Revelation 3 .5, if those Christians didn't overcome, like Jesus said,

Jesus literally said, their names will be blotted out of the book of life. Blotted out.

Okay. So I didn't really get articulated - The new conquerors will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life.

I will confess his name before my father and before his angels. Where does it say that he will blot their name out of the book of life?

Or even could. Or even could. He says, I will never. He says, I will never blot his name out of the book of life.

I will confess his name before my father and before his angels. So let's...

Give me a sec. I gotta get the verse out. Yeah. No worries. So when

Jesus says, he who overcomes shall thus be clothed in white garments, and I will not erase his name from the book of life.

It's not a huge assumption to say that if you don't overcome, he will blot your name out of the book of life.

And I don't see how that's a huge jump. So conquer. The one who conquers.

So what are you conquering? Well, sin. That could be sin.

Romans 8. He's going Romans 8? Jesus is talking about overcoming sin in Revelation 3.

I believe this was the church that was loveless, but I could be wrong.

Sure. We can look at that. So Jesus was talking about it earlier, and Matt is way more familiar with that.

But yeah, to the church in Sardis, and to the angel of the church in Sardis, write the words of him who has the seven spirits of God and the seven stars.

I know your works. You have the reputation of being alive, but you are dead. Wake up and strengthen what remains and is about to die.

For I have not found your works complete in the sight of my God. Remember then what you received and heard.

Keep it and repent. If you will not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour

I will come against you. Yet you have still a few names in Sardis, people who have not soiled their garments, and they will walk with me in white for they're worthy.

The one who conquers will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life.

I will confess his name before my father and before his angels. So who is it that's clothed in the white garments?

It's those who overcome, like Jesus said. And he said, if you don't overcome, he's gonna blot your name out. Overcome by faith. People who have not soiled their garments.

This is written to Christians though. This is written to Christians. Okay. This is my wife,

Rachel, by the way. Hi. Nice to meet you. Romans 8, 37, but in all these things, we overwhelmingly conquer through him who loved us.

So how do we conquer? Through Christ. And so - Or overcome. Yeah. Or how do we overcome?

You have to abide in Christ because the Bible says Right, so if it's through him, then there's no way that we can't conquer.

If we're in him, we conquer, period. Yeah, but it's your choice to abide in him or not.

And that's where the huge disagreement goes. I don't wanna keep going in circles. I'm glad I could come on here and talk, but I just don't believe,

I don't believe, I'm pretty certain the Bible teaches you can lose your salvation. And that's just all throughout the book of Revelations.

And I think it's - How about if you synthesize it down to this pinpoint item?

What kind of faith does the Christian have? It is the kind that's gonna overcome because Jesus gives it to us according to Hebrew 12.

And he's the author and finisher. If there's something unfinished about it that we have to perform in any way, shape or form, then he is neither the author or finisher of the kind of faith that's

Christians counting on. No, this is the kind he gives the Christian and to add anything to it, any condition put upon it is to poison that message, is to corrupt the gospel.

Yep, I agree. Okay. And the faith that Paul had, as we were talking about in Philippians 3 before you brought up a revelation was that he would be found in him not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith.

So where are you getting the righteousness to maintain your salvation from? Is that based on -

Through Christ. You do the righteousness from God through faith. No, it's through Christ.

Okay. Yeah. But that faith in Christ - So are you the perfecter of your faith? Pardon? Are you the perfecter of your faith?

Of course not. Okay. Okay. Does Jesus give something other than perfect faith?

So it's just easier because they - No, but - But there you go. There you go.

If you've got the kind of faith he grants you, you're in, buddy. That's where the huge disagreement comes because I don't believe in Calvinism.

I just don't. That's not Calvinism. That was Hebrew as well. I don't even read

Calvin. No, no. Reform theology and the fact that God grants you it. That's a terrible chestnut.

When someone quotes scripture and you accuse it of being Calvinism shows that you've got a chip on your shoulder that's insurmountable.

No, I don't. I actually don't. I actually don't. I don't. Well, you've done it several times tonight. So, you know, straight forward scripture, you accuse of being

Calvinism and that's a dead giveaway right there, my friend. Well, no, because I'm -

Are you a Calvinist? No, I'm not. So do you believe we have a free choice?

That God gives us any free choice? It's compatible with our will. Choice is compatible with the will of Jesus.

God and me have a compatible with us will, compatible with our nature.

Unfortunately - Yeah, and I disagree there. You disagree there? Can you shoot a wire out of your feet?

I can choose - Can you fly? I can't choose to do something that's beyond my nature. My choices are always compatible with my nature.

I can't flap my arms and fly, but if I was by nature a bird, you couldn't stop me.

Okay? Our choices are compatible with our nature. For you to ignore that is fally.

No, I'm not trying to ignore that. I'm just, I don't see that lining up. No, I'm actually,

I'm not trying to. I'm trying to be humble right now. I don't see, when I see verses like that in Revelation, I just don't see, like, that's a choice.

I think it's very clear it's a choice for us to make. I think you need to read the definition of eisegesis, reading something into the text that isn't there, my friend.

You can only get from what it says. Your implications and your equivocations all night long have been such that you want to have an elastic view that is so stretchable that it goes beyond the snapping point.

And you're accepting that and feeling satisfied with it. And I don't know how you can feel satisfied with that kind of rubber ruler.

I don't feel satisfied. That's why I'm here. That's genuinely why I'm here. But yeah.

Okay, well, get rid of the rubber ruler. And when you see a scripture that's precisely saying what it's saying, don't accuse it of being

Calvinist. No, I didn't mean to, but it was theology behind that that I don't agree with.

Like, we don't see in the Bible that God or that people only have a free will that they can interact with between what they're given.

But if what you believe doesn't go along with what scripture says, then what needs to change is what you believe.

What you believe needs to go along with what scripture says. So when they're quoting scripture and you say,

I don't agree with your theology behind it, what is that?

Is that not rejection of scripture? No, I'm not trying to say theology, the presupposition I don't agree with.

And that's what I'm saying. And that's where the whole problem comes. Respectively, I don't wanna keep going in circles. Yeah, you're importing a presupposition that was never there, my friend.

And that's a cognitive disjointedness, it's disconnection.

Sorry about that, but it's the truth that I'm telling you in a friendly sort of way because you're way off the mark on some of this stuff.

That's okay. Yeah, that's okay. Hey, I'm a knucklehead on a lot of topics, okay?

So it's not wrong to be a knucklehead, but on this one, sorry. All right, well, that's really all the questions

I had really. I can't say I'm satisfied. Thanks for taking the time. Thank you for taking the time.

Yeah, thanks for taking the time. It's good, I actually appreciate it. And I wanna encourage you to continue to read the word of God, open it up and believe what it says.

When you come across passages that challenge your presuppositions, believe it. I know they've brought up some good points you're gonna wanna study anyways, but I appreciate getting a chance to talk to you.

Yeah, you too. Thank you guys. God bless you. God bless. That's good.

I'm reminded of when Paul said it's necessary that there'd be disagreements among them that the truth may be made known.

In philosophy, they call that a dialectic. You come together and you argue your points and the one party or both parties may walk away from their argument with even stronger position than either of them came into it with.

So the truth may be known, the disagreements are necessary. And Paul doesn't condemn that.

He says, it's rather a good thing, healthy. Yeah. That was the first revelation.

He kept bringing up a lot of the same points over and over again. I don't think he was really hearing us on some of that.

And I hope he does wrestle with the scriptures and take this fight to the word of God and that the Holy Spirit will show him that the law, it says that every mouth may be stopped by the law.

I think that's in Romans chapter three. That's the purpose of the law is that every mouth is going to be stopped.

And then you'll see that if it depends on him and his works, that he is not saved and he has already lost his salvation and he can't get it back.

Yeah, that might be what it indicates. I'd be sad to think that way, but it could be a signpost, could be.

He left. He left? Yeah. Yeah. You wore him down.

Hey Matt, we went over four hours. How long are you going to go? We're just getting started.

Yeah, that's a lot of work. Keep going until tomorrow. We only got 20 minutes left. Yeah. She who cooks ran out of food for me.

Well, who's the guy at the bottom left here? Probably that Levi. What's that?

We've interacted before. I just have, I think like three simple questions. The third one,

I think is fair way, but I got two simple questions. Okay, what? So 1

Corinthians 13, Paul gives a list of what love is. Love is patient, love is kind, all this and all that.

Do you think that precedes any form of trust in any form of relationship?

I don't understand the question. Any form of what, what? Do you believe that type of love, what love truly is, precedes any type of trust in any form of relationship?

Well, see your, any form of relationship is so broad that it becomes a -

Marriage, marriage. Okay. Marriage, well, I teach on the theology of marriage.

If there's an interesting in marriage, if there's a marriage issue, I can teach on it. I could do a

Bible study next week on the theology of marriage. And talk about what true love really is. It's other -centered.

But - 11 years. And do you think that other -centeredness would produce trust in someone?

Other -centeredness? Yes. You can't, it's not a formula. Other -centeredness produces trust because other people are so suspicious, they might not trust you.

Some people might be gentle and they would, there's no guarantee. Your obligation is to do what's right before God.

And not worry about somebody else. A lot of times in marriage, people think, what

I gotta do is I'll do the right things. And that person will respond properly. That's not how it works.

You do stuff independently of how that person's gonna be. And you act right according to Christ.

And then you pray for that person and that's it. If you think there's a one -to -one that's supposed to do something, it's gonna cause problems.

Why do you think the other person would react poorly to the other -centeredness?

Who knows? Personality conflicts could be a damage to their psyche from childhood trauma.

It could be the husband's pushy. It could be that the woman is rebellious.

It could be all kinds of stuff. That's why when I do marriage counseling, it usually goes minimum two hours.

Minimum. Usually goes four hours, one session. Because to find out what the squeaky wheel is, what the problem is, and a lot of times, well, let's put it this way.

Out of 36 times where I've done marriage counseling, 32 of them have been, the problem has been the guy.

Because most guys don't understand biblical love and biblical headship.

And a lot of times, wives don't either, and so there's a problem. But when they come to me, they're desperate.

So, makes sense? Yeah. My sort of thought is that real love towards all those virtues that Paul keeps on 1

Corinthians 13, it either produces real trust in someone who has that humility towards that person's love.

No, no, no, no, no, no, no. You're thinking wrong. Okay, tell me, tell me why. You're thinking, if I do this, then that person will do that.

I'm also thinking of how love would actually respond to how a person is.

No, no, no, no, no. You don't wanna have a formula where you say love is this and this is how the other person's supposed to react.

It doesn't work like that. That will lead you down a dead end with all kinds of problems.

You talking about you and your wife? No, I'm single. Okay. I'm more so thinking like one's reaction to love is their duty to it.

Because if it's the right reaction towards love, that love will probably produce trust in them.

There's too many variables what you're talking about. There's a lot going on there. Well, yeah, it's a case -by -case basis, but like the general idea of marriage, of what it's -

I'll tell you what. But people are complicated. We gotta decide what we're gonna talk on next week, but maybe marriage might be a good topic because people have an interest in it.

And I do know the theology of marriage. I can teach on it. Sure. And I start with the doctrine of the

Trinity. That's a good starting point. My only other question, because it's two o 'clock my time

AM. Is humility something that can be rationally boastful?

Yes. What would be a circumstance of that? Moses wrote in Numbers 12 .2,

he said he was the most humble man on earth, or one of the most humble men. Because it was true. Interesting.

But do you think that humility is used in the boastful sense of like, inclusion's too late, you know?

If we say, how long does it take us to make it over? I don't have a lot of time to answer that, but -

You're breaking up and it's hard to hear because we've got people talking, so. Sorry. Do you think that humility, the way you put it there could be boastful in the sense of Ephesians 2 .8,

like how Paul talks about - Not in that sense. Not in that sense? I wouldn't say so, but you should read

Numbers 12 .2 and you'll see about the issue of Moses. You know, he's humble.

But he was a humble man. Yeah, Matt, you wrote a devotional, a short devotional on humility.

I'll put it in the article in the link there. Yeah, I've come in and they - Yeah, check it out.

Yeah, those are just some questions that come to mind when people talk about -

Okay. Like how you guys were going back and forth and what you're doing now. And some features that you're thinking about.

Because those are - Okay, now I'm getting over it. I'm not a Calvinist, but my experience is very

Calvinistic. I got to shut it down because it's just getting late. There's a lot of sound. I get overlaid with too much sound.

So let's figure out what we're gonna talk about next week though, okay? Okay. All right, everybody.

God bless. I'm shutting it down. Okay. We'll see. It's four hours.