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Matt Slick bible study on eternal security
All right. We're live. Okay, it is 731 we're gonna start we're gonna do Eternal security tonight for those of you online. We're watching get a few people here as well and I'm gonna go over some Theology not just it can you lose it but some theology that gives the basis for that position.
And before we do that, I'd like to pray and those of you who like my shirt can comment about it truth the new hate speech and We're gonna get some you gotta get it. I got to get a T-shirt company going a lot of sayings.
I've been saving up. To calm or not to calm that is the question, you know and stuff like that. All right. Let's pray Lord Jesus. Thank you for Thank you for your word and I asked Lord that you would bless it as we go through issues of scripture.
And we go through what you have done and accomplished for us Lord that we recognize that we are secure in your work not in our goodness and I asked Lord for your mercy on us and for those who would hear and those who would listen and May you be glorified in our words.
We ask this Jesus your precious name. Amen. All right. So All right eternal security so the issue is can we lose our salvation or not are we secure in Christ. Coincidentally today on the radio a guy came on the radio.
So you heard it. Did you hear today Nick? Didn't hear the show, but you did anybody else this guy calls up towards the end of the show and he started explaining how we can lose our salvation and it's not very often that I'll ask this kind of a question and get such a blatant answer of.
You know, well if you can lose your salvation, what do you got to do to keep it? And he said Keep the 11 Commandments that the first 10 and X is 20 and the commandment love your neighbors yourself. So there's 11 Commandments you got to keep and I said, well, okay.
You know you're doing that and he said well yes, and I said are you doing it on the level of Jesus and he was interrupting all the time, you know, and So he says well, yeah, he said I assume I think I wrote it down in my notes.
I assume He is that's what he says and I you know If it's essentially I called him a false convert and an arrogant and a fool. The reason I called him a fool is because of Galatians 3 1 through 3 you foolish Galatians who has bewitched you to think that that which is begun by the Spirit can be protected by the flesh and So this is what the Bible says to those who think that you can earn your hurt.
Basically keep your righteousness by your goodness and I said, I just sorry but this wife to tell you you're a fool for that. You're a false convert and then I quoted some other stuff and the guy was Not real coherent and a lot of things that he was saying, but nevertheless It's a real issue.
And I'm trying to set up a debate with some oneness people when it's Pentecostal who denied the Trinity, of course and It'll probably happen in a week or two and in that thread on Facebook, I Was told that I hold to the damnable teaching.
Damnable that okay, the damnable teaching of eternal security and So, you know, I asked him what in Scripture means it's damnable. If you think think that you're eternally secure in Jesus and what he's done and there's a lot of people out there.
This is the thing. There's a lot of people out there who who are incredibly ignorant Theologically and in their absolute foolishness. They pronounce judgment on others and they should have no business Talking theology and probably neither driving or voting because they don't have all their paws in the litter box nevertheless, having said that what we're going to do now is go through some scripture and Relay some stuff down Theologically more and more as I teach I want to get into the issue of using God as a standard of righteousness and truth and So God is a Trinity.
There's only one God in all existence all place all time. That is the true and living God and he is a Trinity one God in three distinct simultaneous persons. Now the reason this is important in this issue of eternal security is because in Hebrews 13 20 it talks about the blood of the eternal covenant the eternal covenant I believe is the inter Trinitarian relationship covenant where God Covenant it within the members of the of the Trinity to redeem mankind and Where the father would send the son the son would redeem and the Holy Spirit would apply it or in depth of work.
So those are the basic very basic aspects. But one of the things that's necessary for us to understand is that in the inter Trinitarian communion, which is by necessity eternal. And since God knows all things it must be the case that he knows who will be saved.
Now some people at this point will deviate and say the reason that God knows who will be saved is because he knows. That people have their free will and could just choose God or not. It's up to them and Of course the scriptures don't teach that but if I do tackle that issue with people I'll ask well, what is Bob believe and Frank does not well or free will.
Well. What about why is it Bob's free will enables him and Frank free? Well does not because that's his free will and they can't answer the question. Now, of course, we would say that God grants that he will believe Philippians 129 he grants a repentance.
2nd Timothy 225. So we're aware of the fact that God is the one who's a sovereign king over all areas. He's a Lord of all not just a Lord of some but nevertheless. Think about this if God is eternal and If God knows all things First John 3 20.
He knows all things then. Anything that comes into existence Exists because God has ordained that it come into existence. Now Bible says in Ephesians 1 11 that God works all things after the counsel of his will.
This means evil as well as good. That all of them are worked according to his will those have the decretive will the prescriptive will the permissive will. The decretive will of God is that God decrees certain things to exist.
Let there be light. There's light the prescriptive will don't lie and The permissive will he lets you lie. So the will of God is such that it encompasses all of creation in good and bad. Nothing can occur.
Let's just the will of God. I got to make sure that people who are my critics don't take this out of context. God does not desire that people sin in that he gives a prescriptive will but it is his desire to let them Sin, they will be allowed to sin by God because it's his will to allow them to sin because they do have freedom and so he chooses to allow them so it's in the will of God to allow them to sin in The what we call the permissive sense.
All right. When it comes down to people being saved. We know that nobody could be saved without the blood of Christ being shed. Because he bore sin in his body in the cross first Peter 2 24. He became sin on our behalf second Corinthians 5 21.
So we know that God from all eternity who's proclaimed and ordained what service will come to pass. Ephesians 1 11 has ordained that people will be saved. Now people cannot of their own free will and their sinful state come to Christ.
The reason they can't come to Christ is because the Bible says such things as the unbelievers a slave of sin Romans 6 14 through 20. He's a hater of God who does no good. Romans 3 10 11 and 12 doesn't even seek for God.
He is dead in his sins Ephesians 2 1. He's by nature child of wrath Ephesians 2 3. He cannot receive spiritual things first Corinthians 2 14. His hearts desperately wicked deceitful cannot be trusted.
Isaiah 6 64 6 what's one of the righteous deeds? That's it 179 thank you. Ooh, look at that. That's right. 64 6 is our righteous deeds are filthy rags. And there Jeremiah 17 9 the harsh desperately wicked deceitful.
No man can trust it. So if the Bible says that the unbelievers a hater of God doesn't seek for God can do no good cannot receive spiritual things Is Full of wickedness dead in his sins by nature child of wrath then He cannot of his own sinfully enslaved free will choose God now.
Why is this all important to eternal security and I'll explain later laying the foundation down. So because those sets of verses are true we have verses that say that for example in Acts 13 48 as Many as had been appointed to eternal life believed so they were appointed.
The word in Greek is tassel. Which means to put into place the way a general would put into place certain armies in certain locations. It's placed. So as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed now.
We believe because God grants that we believe flippans 129 and we're born again, not of our own will John 1 13. We're caused to be born again. First Peter 1 3. So Jesus also says you cannot come to me unless the father draws you John 6 44 and you cannot come to me unless it's been Granted to you from the father John 6 65 so The reason I'm bringing all this up is that if it's true and it is biblically I gave the references.
If it's true that an individual can a sinner enslaved to sin cannot of his own free will come to Christ. God must be the one who interacts with that person. Individually now some people say no. God never does that.
Yes. He does go to Acts 9 15. Paul the Apostle is called a chosen vessel by Jesus the individual chosen vessel to be an instrument for God's glory. And his purpose and I get his other verses don't have memorized but they're there.
So God chooses individuals. We can go to Romans 9. About that 9 to 23, but we won't right now. So in the inter Trinitarian communion all of this is known where the Trinity knows and acknowledges the fact and the truth.
That nobody will ever of their own free will come to Christ because they're enslaved to sin. Haters of God can do no good. Won't don't seek for God, etc, which means God has to elect them into salvation.
He's got a predestined them as I already said Acts 13 48 as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed now. Before we get it a little bit further. I'm gonna say God is not a respecter of persons.
That's a Romans 2 11 and also James 2 2 through 4. But there but the way the Bible says that is God is not a respecter of persons in that he does not look. To see into a person to see if there's a good quality in a person and then he chooses that person for salvation.
Because under a certain circumstance they'll believe that's not it. God does not look into the future. He does not acknowledge that there's anything good in us by which we then deserve election or predestination.
As I like to say and sometimes frequently will repeat I'm glad that God predestined me from the foundation of the world because if he'd look at me now, he wouldn't pick me. Because we know what we are by even as sinners even as saved and God is the one who elected us and chose us.
We'll go to Ephesians here in a little bit and talk about that. But here's the thing God is the Supreme King in the inter trinitarian communion where God knows all things. He ordains all things. Either by decree by permission by prescription or permission in his will and morality and things like that.
Even the salvation of individuals is also prescribed by God and ordained by God. It cannot be any other way and it certainly cannot be the case. That God looks into the future to see who'll pick him because that mean God learns and that's heresy.
It does not mean that God Says that under certain conditions certain people will pick me. So I'll pick those people who will pick me that's showing favoritism. That's not how it works biblically and a lot of people have humanistic theological Perspectives thinking that they are themselves good enough that they in their wisdom have chosen God.
God reacts that they're choosing and then regenerates them upon their belief. So that God is necessarily reactionary based upon the free will choices of the individual who's a slave of sin. Hater of God does no good doesn't seek for God.
So the unbeliever or and sometimes believers who would say that that God looks into the future or that God will see what condition they Will have they are speaking false doctrine. Doesn't mean they're not saved.
They just don't know their biblical theology now. If the Trinity is true, and it is sorry one is Pentecostal heretics. But if the Trinity is true, the inter Trinitarian communion is that God the Father sends the Son to do what?
To redeem. Now if you go to Ephesians 1 4, it says just as he chose us in him. Before the foundation of the world in Him is a term of federal headship. Federal headship is the teaching that the male represents the descendants not the female.
Adam and Eve were in the garden. She sinned first, but sin entered the world through Adam. Romans 5 12. You can go to Hebrews 7 7 through 10 where Levi in the loins of his great-grand great-great-great-great-grandfather.
Abraham Paid tithes to Melchizedek because Abraham paid tithes to Melchizedek. So Abraham represented his descendants. Adam represented his descendants just as it says in Romans 5 19 That through the one trespass the many were made sinners.
They were made sinners and when it says they were made sinners. It's an aorist. It's an aorist indicative. Which means that There's an aorist. Excuse me aorist passive. Indicative which means that the action of being made sinners occurred upon them and to them by the action of somebody else.
That's what it means. Aorist means past tense. Passive means they receive the action indicative. It's a fact and so they there many were made sinners by the fall of Adam it's an aorist active aorist passive indicative or was it?
Worm-made. Yeah, that's right. Now what's interesting is if you go to Philippians 1 29, it says that we were For you it has been granted to believe has been granted is also the aorist. Passive indicative.
It's the same construction which means that just as Adam Made us sinners God makes us believers. Now if people want to argue with me theologically on that go tackle the Greek come back to me later. But that what the Bible is saying is that in him Jesus We were chosen because the Bible says just as he the father chose us in him.
So he the father chose us chose it collect us the elect in Christ. Now here's what's interesting the choosing and in him are necessarily logically simultaneous. You Cannot have any choosing for salvation apart from federal headship and the guarantee of the atoning sacrifice.
There is no condition in which the atoning sacrifice could not occur. It's impossible. God ordained that it will occur by his direct invaluable inviolate decree. Ephesians 1 4 it's a great verse. He the father chose us in Him he chose us the father chose us the elect in Christ that means we were in Christ to be chosen.
It's all Simultaneous him the choosing in Jesus all of it comes together. Ephesians 1 4. So God, you know some people say well now he looked in the future he chose us by looking in the future to see what will happen or Knowing which people will pick him under certain conditions and that's how it works.
That's called temporal priority. Well, we don't affirm that we've affirmed logical priority and it cannot be Temporally prior with God because all knowledge with God is simultaneous and eternal. So it's logically must be the case that all of it is known simultaneously and God chose us in him.
In the election and the eternal knowledge in Christ and federal headship all simultaneously from eternity ago. This is how it works when you understand the doctrine of the Trinity. I understand the the Presence the power the vastness of his essence.
There's against him. Nothing can be compared. There's nothing external to him by which he can compare it. He's self-revealed and in his self-revelation of the scriptures. We find out that he is the one who has ordained what service will come to pass Ephesians 1 11.
Now all this is background for eternal security. Will God the father who gives us to the Son? For redemptive work, is he going to know that Bob at the age of 30? He's going to become a believer and fall away at the age of 15 goes to hell.
You can lose a salvation. So how then is it from eternity. God chose us in him. God chose Bob in Christ and Then predestined them because it says just as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world that we would be holy and blameless Before him in love.
He predestined us to adoption his sons through Jesus Christ himself according the kind intention of his will. So they'd be saying well what happened was God Chose us the elect in Jesus. But they can't say by his foreknowledge because they would know ago.
They want to go to Romans 8 29 that we can go to that later. Those of you for knew we also predestined. They don't know they're talking about there when they say that's foreknowledge in a sense of looking the future.
But nevertheless if they're gonna say that that God what he has done is he has known people that he knows are going to choose him that he chooses them in Christ and Yet they're gonna be fallen. How then can he choose them in Christ?
From eternity ago. Knowing that they're going to hell. Furthermore, how can he atone for them? We're gonna get into the nature of the extent of the atonement now. So there's some problems here and When we get to the nature of are we secure in Christ.
We have to understand the Trinitarian foundation and the eternal covenant of God is the foundation by which God the Father has chosen Whom he will for salvation. Now if any of you are listening to me and don't like that, well, that's your problem.
Not mine. You can go to Ephesians chapter 1 verses 1 through 11. You can go to Let's see what other verses for choosing they go to Acts 13 48. He chose us as many as had been appointed eternal life now.
Generally, what I'll do at this point is go to John 6 37 through 40 and that's what we're gonna do now. But before we do that, I want to ask a question and the answer is found in John 8 29 does Jesus always do the will of the Father.
And Jesus says in John 8 29. He always does the will of the Father. Jesus cannot fail to do the will of the Father. Jesus always does the will of the Father. This is important. If Jesus always does the will of the Father then we have to understand something when we go to John 6 37 40.
Jesus says all that the Father gives me will come to me and notice Ephesians 1 4 he chose us in him. He the Father chose us the elect in Christ. And this is what Jesus says all that the Father gives me will come to me.
It does not say all who come to me. The Father will give to me. All who of their own free will just decide to come to God in their sinfully enslaved situation. They're gonna come to me and then the father's gonna grant that they come to me and he'd give him to the son.
That's humanistic philosophy. It has no place in the Christian Church. All that the Father gives me will come to me. So there's a group called the all given by the Father to the Son and The one who comes to me I will certainly not cast out.
Now I know that some people might be listening to this and say something to the effect of all but they can cast themselves out. We're gonna get through that. Okay, you can lose yourself. The thing people will do to rest of scriptures.
All that the Father gives me will come to me and the one who comes to me. I sir, I will certainly not cast out for I have come down from heaven not to do my own will. But the will of him who sent me. So he's come down to do the will of the Father.
This is the will of him who sent me that all he's given me. I lose nothing but raise it up on the last day. What's the will of the Father that Jesus lose none? Does Jesus ever fail to do the will of the Father?
No. Can Jesus lose any? No, if anybody wants to say and hear me out. If any of you out there want to say that Jesus failed To read to elect or failed to redeem the ones given him by the Father. You are in sin and rebellion against the very words of Christ you to repent because the Bible clearly says that Jesus says this is Will of him who sent me that all that he's given me I lose nothing.
But raise it up on the last day and then he says in verse 44 This is the will of my father that everyone who beholds the Son and believes on him will have eternal life and I myself will raise Him up on the last day now.
What you notice something because we're gonna go with some other verses here in a bit. Notice what it says in verse 40. It says eternal life, right. Now notice what it says in verse 39 lose nothing it's gonna take off.
Okay, go outside for a minute, okay, that's all right, okay. Okay good help them out, okay and so it says here what I want you to notice is a pattern in verse 39 to lose nothing is equivalent to never perish.
An eternal life in verse 40. Now. The reason I'm bringing this up is what does it say in John 3 16? It says God so loved the world that it gave his only begotten Son that whoever would believe in him would never perish.
But have everlasting life. Jesus equates never perishing an eternal life. He does it in John 3 16. He does it in John 6 39 and 40. It will lose none, but have eternal life. It's never perishing. Also, if you go to John 10 27 28 he says My sheep hear my voice and I know them and they follow me.
I give eternal life to them and they will never perish. So notice how Jesus is saying eternal life never perishing. This is how Jesus says I will give eternal life to the sheep. They'll never perish. But what people are gonna say?
No. What's what's saved always saved is it's a license to sin and you can go to hell for that. They have no clue what they're talking about and we'll get to some of these Counterverses later in Hebrews and all this stuff and second Peter 2 and all that we'll get to that.
So No, I want you just notice that Jesus often equates never perishing with eternal life. This is the words of Jesus and that yet people will say yeah, they can perish they can perish, right? But why because what they will do is they'll reject Jesus so and they go back to John 6 37 to 40 what's happening is they are the ones who are losing themselves because Jesus says this is the will of my father John 6 37.
John 6 40. This is the will of my father that everyone who beholds his son and believes in him will have eternal life. I myself will raise him up on the last day. Sorry I wouldn't meant to go 39. This is the will of my of him who sent me that all that he's given me I lose nothing but raise it up on the Last day, so they'll say the will the father that Jesus lose none, but you can lose yourself.
Now what I want people. Oh, I say that. Yeah, they do. It's like what? What I want them to those kind of critics. I want you to understand something. Notice who this is about. It's not about the elect.
It's about the father and the son. All that the father gives me will come to me and the one who comes to me I certainly will not cast out now. The elect are certainly talked about there right for I have come down from heaven not to do my own will but the will of Him who sent me this is the issue.
The will is that the father will the father is that Jesus lose none. The will the father is that Jesus lose none. This is the will of him who sent me that all he's given me. I lose nothing. But raise him up the last day.
But this is the will of my father that everyone who beholds the son and believes in him will have eternal life. But I myself will raise him up on the last day. So If they're gonna say that you can lose yourself.
This is not what this is about. It's about the condition between the father and the son. The will the father that Jesus lose none period and also notice this. Because it says the will of him who sent me in verse 39.
This is the will of my father in verse 40 the will of him who sent me verse 39 the will of my father. Okay, so think of a sandwich ABC ABC so a in 39 and 40. This is the will of him who sent me first 40.
This is the will of my father. Okay, 39 B. All right that all he's given me. I lose nothing. Mm-hmm. And 40 B that everyone who beholds his son and believes in him will have eternal life. Right and so back to 39 that I'll lose nothing, okay, and then 39 C but raise it up on the last day and 30 and 40 see I myself will raise him up on the last day.
So what's interesting is that 39 and 40 are similar? Very similar that it says this is the will of God verse 39 and 40 in verse in part a. Skip part B for a second go to part C and you'll see that what happens in part C.
Is that they'll raise him up in the last day? The the will of the Father is this. That him who sent me that all is given me I lose nothing but raise it up on the last day the will of the Father Jesus raised him up.
That's the glorified resurrected body. That's what's going on and Whoever beholds and believes in the Son will have eternal life and I'll raise him up on the last day. If you can lose your salvation that means then that you were saved.
That means you looked on the Son you beheld the Son and you believed. The will of the Father's that those who do that will be raised up by Jesus. It's not an issue of the individual saying I'm gonna lose myself.
No, it's the issue of the Father saying to the Son you're gonna raise him up because he's given to the Son. The group called the all all that the Father gives me will come to me and the one who Comes to me.
I certainly will not cast out for I've come down from heaven not to do my own will but the will of him Who sent me this is the will of him who sent me that all that he's given me I lose nothing but raise it up on the last day.
But this is the will of my father that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in him will have eternal life. And I myself will raise him up on the last day. So the will the father is that everyone who has believed to be resurrected by Christ on that last day.
They're gonna say that Jesus has failed to do the will of the Father and they won't be resurrected on that day. They're accusing Jesus of sin when they say we can lose our salvation. Wait, it's right there.
Now We haven't even gotten to the nature and extent of the atonement to discuss this issue. More and we will a little bit. All right so Jesus or God says in Hebrews 13 5 through 6 Make sure that your character is free from the love of money being content With what you have for he himself has said I will never desert you nor will I ever forsake you so that we?
Comp it's gonna be confidently say the Lord is my helper. I will not be afraid. What will men do to me now? God says he will never forsake us. He'll never leave us. Now I think about this if an unbeliever becomes born again, then he's regenerated by God, correct.
If he becomes an unbeliever does God actively unregenerate him. God's the one who causes us to be born again first Peter 1 3. But they would have to say that God would have to cause us to become unborn again.
That's what they'd have to say. Nothing in Scripture says that but it does say that he will never leave us or forsake us. Hebrews 13 5 through 6 or 2 5 actually he will never leave us forsake us. That's what it says now.
I Know that might be critics out there bear with me. We're gonna get the other verses, but after we go to the atoning work. In 1st John 2 19, it says they went out from us. But they were not really of us for if they had been of us they would have remained.
But they went out in order that it might be shown that they're not all of us. Some people say well, wait a minute. That's about the Antichrists. Talking about the end it is the context is about Antichrist of false teachers.
Well, they went out from us the false teachers. But they were not really of us were they for if they had been of us they would have remained. They were shown to be false teachers. That's what they left if they were true and true.
They weren't at his Antichrist, but true people they would have remained. It's simple. This is what is being taught so Water we're gonna go into the nature and extent of the atonement. I want people to know from the beginning.
I Hold to limited atonement. And I'm going to use it in order to demonstrate the truth of eternal security. Because of the nature of sin and the nature of the atoning work of Christ and the extent of the toning work is Not possible to lose one salvation so Sin is breaking the law of God 1st.
John 3 for sin is lawlessness. Jesus says our Father who art in heaven. Hallowed be thy name the kingdom come in Matthew 6 12. He says forgive us our debts as we forgive those who are indebted to against us and in Hebrew, excuse me in Luke 11 for the parallel.
He says forgive us our sins. Our father who art in heaven forgive us our sins. Jesus is equating sin with legal debt. Why is this important. Because that's how Jesus was able to bear our sin in his body in the cross first Peter 2 24.
Because our sin was imputed to him. He became sin in our behalf 2nd Corinthians 5 21. Okay now If you go to Colossians 2 13, it says that he has forgiven us all our transgressions. Verse 14 says Having canceled out the certificate of debt.
Consisting of decrees which was hostile to us. He took it out of the way having nailed it to the cross now. Sin is breaking of the law. So sin is a legal debt. Colossians 2 14 says the certificate of debt in the NASB some versions will say blotting out the handwriting of ordinances.
But the Greek word is care. Agra fun care hand graph a writing. It's a hoppix legomena, which means it's a word that use is used only once in a whole body of text. That word occurs only once right there in the entire Bible Colossians 2 14.
It's used in other Greek writings at the time and it means a handwritten IOU of legal indebtedness an IOU legal debt so tax bills were legal debts and They've discovered some ancient tax bills written handwritten with different handwriting style with the word in Greek to tell us die.
Which is it is finished. It's legally paid in full. Jesus said on the cross John 19 30 it is finished if he's God in flesh John 1 1 verse 14 Colossians 2 9 Philippians 2 5 through 8. He's God in flesh and If he bore our sin in his body in the cross first Peter 2 24 is because he had to be a kinsman redeemer.
That's another topic Hebrews 2 17 and Ruth. But anyway He bore our sin. That means our sin was reckoned to his account if our sin was reckoned to his account. Then the wages in his death Romans 6 23 and he died on the cross.
Then what he did was he paid the requirement the punishment of the law Death and he died and therefore the sin debt is paid for now. I Very firmly hold to the position of limited atonement that Jesus did not bear the sin of every individual who ever lived.
In 1st Samuel 3 14, for example God says I've sworn to the house of Eli at the iniquities of Eli's house will not be atoned for by sacrifice or offering forever. Blasphemy the Holy Spirit is not forgiven either then during this age or the age to come just read Matthew chapter 12 verses 22 to 32.
So we know that not all sin is born by Christ in in his body and It cannot be that he bore the sin of everybody who ever lived. Now some say well He's a propitiation for our sins, but not only ours, but the sins of the whole world first John 2 2.
Well, Jesus was sent covenantally not to the whole world. But only to Israel and that's Matthew 15 24 where he says I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. He was not sent to the world, but because He Israel rejected the Messiah we the Gentiles were grafted in.
This is prophesied in Genesis 12 3 when God said to Abraham in you all the nation shall be blessed and Genesis 12 3 is quoted by Paul in Galatians 3 8 saying this is the gospel. So the Gentiles were planned because God knew that Israel was going to break that covenant and they broke the covenant because Jesus was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Matthew 15 24 they broke the covenant we the Gentiles were grafted in so. That's what it's when it says he's a propitiation only for our sins. But the sins of the whole world it means all the nations all the groups.
Some people think the word world means every individual. It does not say that. Okay, it says the world and that's you got to understand covenantally a lot of people reject this but I say don't reject it.
Because that's what the scriptures teach. Don't put your agenda before the scriptures now. The word propitiation in Greek is halas moss. And what that means is the sacrifice that removes wrath. It does not mean that it makes the removal of the wrath potential.
It's done a Propitiatory sacrifice actually removes the wrath that is due to someone. This is what would happen in Yom Kippur the high priest and Israel would go in behind the whole the the temple veil and go to the Holy of Holies sprinkled blood on the mercy seat and leave and the Sins against Israel were propitiated.
They were removed if he's the propitiation for our for our sin. But only our sin for the whole world. If the word world means every individual then everybody has to go to heaven. Since we know from Mark 3 29 Matthew 25 46 Revelation 14 11 and 2010 We know that people go to hell that it cannot be that he propitiated the sins of every individual who ever lived because Propitiation means to turn away the wrath not to mention for Samuel 3 14 the house of Eli's sins of Eli's house will never be Proficient never be atoned for which is a propitiatory sacrifice.
Furthermore when you go back to Colossians 2 14 It says that he canceled the certificate of debt. Now there's only two possible things that this can mean real possible things. I've got people offered some other things, but there's really a stretch.
It's either the sin debt or the law that's canceled at the cross. If the law is canceled at the cross as a problem because Romans 5 13 says if there is no law There is no sin. So if the law is canceled then nobody can sin anymore and nobody can go to hell.
Because that means there's no sin to be held against anybody by that. So that doesn't work. So there's a certificate of debt. Now Jesus remember Matthew 6 12. Luke 11 4 said he equates sin with legal debt.
Sin is her martyred debt is Ophelia. And he used those in Matthew 6 12 and Luke 11 4 to reverse them for that order of actually Matthew 6 12 it's Ophelia ma debt and in Luke 11 4 sin which is a martyred.
But also Ophelia over there too, but that's okay. And so what he did was Jesus canceled the certificate of debt at the cross now. This is important to eternal security. As well as limited atonement because they go together.
If Jesus only bore the sins of the elect the ones given to him by the father John 6 37 To 40 and they're gonna have eternal life and they'll never perish. John 3 16 Will have eternal life and he will lose none.
John 6 39 John 10 28 they will give eternal life to them. They'll never perish. This is how Jesus speaks of this whole thing. If Jesus actually propitiated that their sins which means to remove the wrath and he canceled the Certificate of debt the sin debt then it's logically necessary that if your sin debts canceled at the cross You can't go to be held responsible for that sin that it's gone.
Well, some people will say no. Jesus only canceled a sin that up to the point of your believing. Which is stupidity flat-out because. That would mean then that his sacrifice was offered once for all right just once for all for have the verse for that and And once for all well then if that's the case then you have to atone for your own sins because if he only told for your sins up to the point Of your believing you're responsible for the rest and you're in trouble.
Can't happen. So the foolish people will say that Jesus atonement was only Covering up to the point when you believe and it's up to you to Confess your sins and get them repeatedly atoned for. Which makes no logistical sense now.
If Jesus cancels the certificate of debt at the cross. We have Bob who gets saved at 30 and falls away and at 50 goes to hell. Did God did Jesus pay for all of his sins? If they for all of his sins, then that would have to include the post deconversion sins.
But that's the case then those sins are paid for. How could he go to hell doesn't make sense. We'll have to say well you didn't pay for those sins then well then not all of his sins are paid for how could you be Saved without all your sins being paid for then.
They're gonna have to say well, you only pay for of that point and then we're back to the same problem again so people when they Deny the truth of God's Word because they're often following the blonde hair blue-eyed Caucasian surfer Jesus dressed in a woman's nightgown who's standing at the door of your heart.
Begging for you in your wisdom to let him in. I got blonde hair blue eyes perfect complexion. Look at me. Can I come in and that's the Jesus that they like because they want him submissive to their own will.
That's what happens in the nature of man. If Jesus canceled the sin debt then he did it at the cross now people say well. Then that means you're born saved. No, it does not mean that. Because you're the sin that's canceled at the cross 2 ,000 years ago, but you weren't even born so you could not be born saved.
Because the wrath of God was abiding on you until you were justified. It's called a now on the not yet in theology. I've already gone over this here before. Where Jesus atoned for people and he's gonna resurrect them and glorify them.
John, I mean a Romans 8 29 and 30 and Yet, they're not even saved yet. And now they're not yet. So he atoned for their sins their sin debts removed at the cross and they're justified when they believe.
Romans 3 28. Romans 4 5. Romans 5 1. Galatians 2 16 2 21 talks about justification by faith so When we look at all this we realize that Jesus was given a group by the father John 6 37 the ones who are chosen in him before the foundation of the world.
Ephesians 1 4. Jesus said he came to John 10. I lay my life down for the sheep. I think it's John 10 10 but I'm not sure no, that's a deceiver and He says and you're not of my sheep. So logically if he lays his life down for the sheep, he says you're not my sheep.
He's not laying his life down for them. That's limited atonement spoken of by Jesus right there. Now if he canceled the sin that at the cross it cannot be that anyone would go to hell because once a sin debts Cancelled it doesn't exist anymore.
If it doesn't exist anymore. Then you can't lose your salvation. Along with salvation comes regeneration. Unfortunately those who teach all this is a license to sin. Well in that case what I'm gonna do is just say let's go to John to a Roman chapter 5 at the end of Romans 5 and read what it says it ends Romans 5.
Verse 20 the law came in so that the transgression would increase but where sin increased grace abounded all the more. So that as sin reigned in death even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life.
Through Jesus Christ our Lord. Wait a minute eternal life. He's saying. And he's also talking in there about you know. We're sin increased in verse 20 grace about it all the more sin increased grace all the more and we have eternal life.
Verse a chapter 6. What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? May it never be how shall we have died to sin still live in it? People say well that means what you're saying Matt is it's a license to sin.
No, it's not Paul the Apostle is teaching the increase of grace in verse 20 eternal life in verse 21 and then ask the question. Cool that we said all we want. No, of course not. It's the very same thing that people ask and it's because they don't understand this thing called regeneration in John 14 23 Jesus says he'll he and the Father will come and make their abode in us.
John 3 3 through 8. We're born again. We're made new creatures. 2nd Corinthians 5 17. Because we're born again God's living in us. We're changed now those who will say that what happens is Eternal security people are teaching a license to sin.
They're saying then that you can lose your salvation and you keep it by not Doing certain sins or any sins, whatever it is, but you're saying it's okay to go out and sin. You're just gonna sin because now you can you're saved now.
You can't lose it. You need to go out and sin. They're ignoring the indwelling of God in regeneration. I believe that the majority of them do this because they don't understand that the Salvation of God includes the indwelling of God with a change in our nature made new creatures and we don't want to we war Against it and we are not needy.
We don't need to do works to keep our salvation. Because they're gonna say that means you can do the bad works and still be saved because they're implying we do good works to keep ourselves safe. They're the ones who Inadvertently are teaching works righteousness.
By saying if you teach you cannot lose your salvation and you've got to sin all you want, which is technically true. Like I said all I want I just don't want to sin because I'm regenerate. But they're saying oh then you can actually go out and murder and rape and pillage and steal and you're okay.
That's not what we're saying. Because first John 2 for says if you say, you know him and do not keep his commandments. The truth is not in you and you're a liar. What he's saying there is that the manifestation of the regenerative work in God will leave to fruit.
Which in Galatians 5 22 and 23 the nine fruit that are missed or they're listed which is actually one fruit in Greek Karpas singular masculine singular in the Greek the one fruit is Through the spirit love joy peace patience kindness.
This is in the following. This is what it lives in us and indwells us. Those who teach that you can lose your salvation and teach that you've got to be good to keep it and teach that you have to. That you know once they'd always say people are saying oh it's a license to sin they failed to understand regeneration.
It's almost as though because they're not regenerate not saying they're not but it's almost as though they're not regenerate because they think that they've got To be good to keep their salvation. And if you can say you can lose your salvation.
Then you can not be good like we are and that means you can keep it. Well, we don't teach that we keep it by our being good. This is the implication and that's a damnable heresy. I'll get to why it is in a little bit now they can.
They can Be ignorant about certain things and still be saved and think they say they understand their salvation. I get that that's that's fine. Okay now. This is break second or two or five or ten fear for my voice is starting to go a little.
You follow me you guys follow me on this everybody. Okay? Okay now. Okay, so Jesus has equated eternal life with never perishing. We're elected from the foundation of the world. They were not from us because they never were of us.
If they had been of us they would have remained. Jesus says the will of the Father that he lose none and he can't fail to do the will of the Father. Jesus cancelled the certificate of debt our sin debt at the cross and as it says right before that in verse 13 Colossians 14, you know 13 Colossians 2.
13 Colossians 2 14. Having forgiven of us all our transgressions having cancelled certificate of debt. That's what's going on the sin debt. It's all cancelled. Jesus did it all. It's not dependent upon our wisdom our ability nor is it dependent upon our ability to keep ourselves saved.
Go to Galatians chapter 3. Last one there's a semi Pelagian. All right. Okay. This is what it says. You foolish Galatians who has bewitched you before whose eyes? Jesus Christ would publicly portrayed as crucified.
This is the only thing I want to find out from you. Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish having begun by the Spirit? Are you now being perfected by the flesh?
Now this is strong language for him you foolish Galatians. Jesus says in Matthew 5 22 don't call anybody fool, but he's in the context. Very right. Matt is not following the text questions at this point.
That's right. And so We says fools he's asking he's being very very serious. Jesus said don't call him fool. He's talking about just irrational judgments. What Paul's doing here. He's saying look. You'll be perfected by the flesh.
What he's talking about is circumcision. Because let's go to Galatians 5 1 it was for freedom that Christ set us free. Therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery. Behold I Paul say to you that if you receive circumcision Christ will be of no benefit to you and I testify again to every man who receives circumcision that he's under obligation to keep the whole law.
You have been severed from Christ. Notice the pun circumcision severed from Christ. You who are seeking to be justified by law you fallen from grace doesn't mean it lost her salvation. We'll talk about that.
Notice. What are you saying? You're talking to the Judaizers the Jews who thought it was required requirement to be circumcised in order to complete the necessity of salvation. That was earned by the Messiah.
He's saying nope, you don't keep any part of the law because in Galatians 310 he says for as many as are the works of the law are under a curse for it is written cursed is. Everyone who does not abide by all things were in the book of the law to perform them.
So you're obligated to keep the whole law and you go to Deuteronomy 27 26 about that the standard of perfection. But what he says here, you're gonna be circumcised. You're gonna do one thing. To keep yourself right with God make it complete.
You've been severed from Christ. You've fallen from grace not the grace of salvation, but the grace that is given to the Jews In the Messiah for who and what he has done and they want to do one little thing and Paul condemns him wholeheartedly.
There are people who will say I have got to be good to keep myself saved. You get circumcised to keep yourself safe. But if you do one thing in the law, you're obligated to keep the whole law. Now, I'm gonna read this again.
This is Galatians 5 3. I Testify again to every man who receives circumcision. He's under obligation to keep the whole law. You have been severed from Christ you who are seeking to be justified by law.
Now, wait a minute. They're believers in Christ or supposedly but second Corinthians 7 10. They're false believers because it's false repentance. Even severed from Christ you are seeking to be justified by law.
What does he say is their effort to be justified by law this one act of circumcision? But yet they're the ones who supposedly are professing Christ. Yet they want to do one thing and Paul equates it with being justified by the law.
Not by law and faith or faith and law I should say but by law. Period so Paul equates the idea of doing one thing according to the law in order to be saved and Remain saved or get saved anything to do with it as being justified by law.
That's how Paul says it right there. A Lot of people miss this now severed from Christ the pun and then he goes on I think it's. Yeah, that's what it just says what verse that you would mutilate yourselves and you get the idea of what he's saying.
Yeah, they're verse 12. I wish that those who are troubling you would even mutilate themselves. You know what he's talking about. Now wait a minute. Paul the Apostle is saying that he would rather have the male sex organ be mutilated.
That's not how Christians talk. Yes, it is. That's how serious this is now on the radio today this guy said that he keeps the 11 Commandments that the 10 Commandments of Exodus 20 and The another commandment love I mean love their neighbors yourself or love one another.
And he keeps them so he is a false convert. He's severed from Christ and the grace of Christ in that sense. He if you were to die would go to hell because he is being justified by law. He is trying to keep himself right with God by what he does now, I don't know about anybody else I cannot keep myself right with God for a microsecond and.
And Dave over here even less than that I've done him a long time and If our salvation depended on any way on our ability then We're lost. But those who I'm gonna say this boldly and with confidence those who say that they keep their salvation to their sincerity their goodness their stuff are arrogant fools.
Who think that their salvation depends in part upon their ability? Sorry, it does not. God grants that we believe. Lipids 129 grants us repentance. 2nd Timothy 225 Caused us to be born again. First Peter 1 3 he appoints with us to eternal life.
X 1348. You're born again. Not of your own will. John 113. This is the work of God. He's elected us before the foundation of the world. Ephesians 1 4 were given to Christ. Ephesians 1 4 and John 6 37 and were redeemed that he canceled the sin dead at the cross.
John of Colossians 2 14 he canceled the sin debt for the elect. We cannot lose our salvation because that would mean then that what happened is Jesus failed to do the will of the Father by losing some and.
Would also mean that the atoning work wasn't sufficient to guarantee our salvation. That he did not cancel the sin debt forever for those who we were given to him. But at the sin that was canceled or as I like to say, he's mostly canceled.
You know Princess Bride just mostly dead. Which is mostly atoned for mostly canceled not quite everything. This is humanistic philosophy to say I must in order to be saved I must continue. I must this.
I must that me me me. But what does the scripture say? Jesus came and redeemed. Jesus is the one who loves us. Jesus is the one who is our hope. God will never leave us. Jesus canceled the certificate of debt.
Jesus can never fail to do the will of the Father. It's in Christ now. Take a couple of drinks of water here and we'll go over. Supposed verses to the contrary now. I know that people are probably thinking.
Well, wait a minute, man. What about Hebrews 6 20 hit 6 20 6 4 through 6 Hebrews 10 26? 2nd Peter 2 1. Okay, what about those verses. Let me ask a question though. Are you setting scripture against scripture?
Because that's what happens a lot in these kind of debates and discussions people will say. They'll say look man, if you're gonna teach eternal security, what about these other verses that say the contrary they do.
Are you saying the scriptures contradict each other and they'll say no they're contradicting your interpretation of scripture. Okay, let's go to Colossians 2 14. And I ask him sin that was canceled at the cross, right?
Yes. Who's it canceled for? Everybody everybody goes to heaven then right? No people go to hell. Well, then how can it be that they go to hell or sin? That's canceled. Because you have to accept it. Accepting it or not is irrelevant to whether or not it's canceled.
It doesn't become canceled if you accept it. It's canceled. Irrespective of whether you accept it or not. That's what it means to be canceled in Jesus at the cross. How can they go to hell they're gonna believe.
Well God grants that they believe Philippians 129. Well it up to them. It's up to God. They don't like this kind of argumentation because they're humanists. They want man-centered theology not God-centered theology.
All right, let's go to Hebrews. We will start addressing the verses. Okay Hebrews 6 or through 6 now. For in the case of those who've once been enlightened. Does it say they were saved? Doesn't say they're saved and have tasted of the heavenly gift.
Does tasting the heavenly gift means you're saved you regenerated in dwelt atoned for and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit. Does that mean they're saved? Did Judas partake of the Holy Spirit?
Yes, he did. What Judah saved never was because you go to John 6 64. God Jesus says he knew all those who did not believe in those who and the beginning and who would betray him and Judas is put in the group of those who he was never a believer.
Could the Jews have walked with Jesus and followed him and then rejected him could they have tasted the heavenly gift. Yeah. Made partakers of the Holy Spirit people say well that means you're saved and I say to them if it means That you could partake of the Holy Spirit means you're saved.
Show me that in Scripture. There's no verse that says that they assume that's what it means but you can be a partaker of the Holy Spirit in the sense you can see the Holy Spirit's work and conviction of others and Even upon yourself because the Holy Spirit convicts the world of sin and righteousness and judgment.
John 16, I mean John 16 7 I put it for it, right? So that means even unbelievers can be convicted and Not be saved and there's convictions about the Holy Spirit and yet they can reject the Holy Spirit.
Now a lot of times the people who say you can lose your salvation also teach you you can get it back. Because if you lose it by what you do. You can get it back by what you do. If you lose it by not believing you get it back by believing.
From the case of those who've once been enlightened and have tasted the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit and Have tasted the good word of God and the power of the age to come and then have fallen away.
It's impossible to renew them again. Repentance now. That would mean from their logic if they use this pericope of Scripture. It would mean then that anybody who loses their salvation could never get it back.
That's what it would have to mean. But they I have never heard anybody. Tell me and all the years I've been doing this you can lose your salvation and once you lost it You can never get it back. I've never heard anybody say that.
I've heard him say you can get it back. You just got to repent again and you get it back. But that if they're gonna go to Hebrews 6 4 through 6 then they're being inconsistent because it says you cannot.
But that what's it talking about. It's not talking about believers. Because Jesus said he'll lose none of them. What he's talking about is the Jews who were there with Christ at the time of Christ seen the miracles partaken of the Holy Spirit's Work been enlightened of the word and rejected the Messiah.
That's why it says in Hebrews 10 26 If we go on sending willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth or no longer made a sacrifice for sins. Because I've asked people you can lose your salvation.
Yes. And it said well, how do you know because he was 1026 like I did on the radio today. So I said so if you go on sending willfully, have you ever sinned willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth?
Yes. Oh, you're going to hell then. No, it's not true. Well, it says you're no longer made to sacrifice for sin. No, you have to go on Rejecting it. Or this was me how long how many days how many weeks how many whatever you don't know.
They just make this up as they go. They don't understand the book of Hebrews is written to the Hebrews the covenant people of God who had tasted the heavenly gift who understood who Christ was covenantally and Rejected him.
There's no longer sacrifice for sins. That's all that's going on there second Peter 2 1 second Peter 2 1. Maybe moved Peter in my book here. Okay, where is it going? I'm always using here. I'll just go to here but false prophets Also arose among the people just as there will be false teachers among you who will secretly introduce destructive heresies.
Even denying the master who bought them bringing swift destruction upon themselves. People say see matt. Look they were bought by the blood of Christ and they lose their salvation. Look, see really false prophets arose among the people are false prophets true believers.
No, have they repented of their sin? No. Now they're going to argue universal atonement, but that's we're getting a little bit past this but nevertheless. So they're false prophets. Are they saved? No, they're not saved.
Uh who arose among the people just as there will also be False prophets among you of the false prophets. What are you talking about the people of israel? That's what the context is if you go to first and second peter.
And if you happen to have a bible that has the old testament quotes in capitals, you'll see lots of capitals. They quote you all there's lots. I wrote an article where I go through them and cited them and that's just the quotes and then there's allusions which are not direct Quotes but indirect references or two things the old testament.
So peter is writing to the jews scattered around the area. And he's referring to a lot of old testament stuff so. But false prophets also arose among the people. He's talking about the old testament israel people.
Just as there'll be also false prophets among you. They weren't saved then. They they're not going to be saved now. Who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, these are not believers. Even denying the master who bought them now, they'll use this for it gets a limited atonement.
I'm, just going to address this about the limited atonement issue. Because this verse can't be used to say you lose your salvation because they're false prophets to begin with false prophets aren't saved.
So that's just this verse doesn't work. Nevertheless. Since it's referencing the old testament a great deal. Deuteronomy 32 6. Do you thus repay the lord? Oh foolish and unwise people. Is he not? Is not he your father who has bought you he has made you and established you.
Israel was bought out of slavery by god through the work that he did. In pharaoh and the the flood. I mean not a flood but the parting of the red sea all this stuff. And there were false prophets that came and yet they were bought by god.
But it does not say redeemed and their sins were all forgiven. It's that sense and this is what I believe. Is what the sense that he's talking about false prophets also arose among them denying the lord who bought them.
It's a generic buying that's going on not an atoning work and that's all that we won't get into too much more deeply than that. So that verse cannot be used to justify that you lose your salvation so.
There's other verses people like to use but I've basically gone over this stuff and uh. So we're due. Just took about a whole hour that's good. I'm going to open up to questions. And I know that people in the chat room are going to have questions and uh, there's.
There's 65 people watching um. So if you got any questions on the time and we can launch into some other stuff you guys have any questions. I like a dave here when I mentioned colossus 240. It's like a theological jacuzzi, huh?
He loves reformed theology, that's right. Um. So let's see what people say. Can you explain second peter 3 9? Yes, I can god is not uh. Slow was it slow or something? Uh in his patience, but uh wants all people to be saved.
But. But for all. Not wishing for any repentance but all to come to salvation, right. So There's two main senses we can understand this one is that the all. Uh is a reference to every individual on the planet, but he only wills out of them.
Some to come to salvation. Some people say well, that's not it doesn't make sense. Well, yes, it can because if he wants all people to be saved and it means every individual. Then why does he speak in parables in mark 4 10 through 12?
And he tells us jesus says he speaks in parables so people will not be saved. So there can be a sense in which god can generically want everyone to be saved. And yet not enable everyone to be saved. That's theologically and logically, uh defensible.
Another thing is to say that the all is only in reference to the elect. The romans 5 18 it says through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men. So also through one act of righteousness.
There resulted justification of life to all men. Justification means you're saved to all men. All can only mean the christians. Also if you were to note notice that um the bible says That uh That only the christians have died with christ romans 6 6.
We were crucified with christ romans 6 8. We died with christ. That's not the unbelievers who are crucified with christ because all who have been crucified or those who have died are free from the law.
That's romans 7 4. If we've died to the law to christ, then the law has no jurisdiction over us according to romans 7 1 through 4 We've died with christ. We've died with christ, but the law cannot be held To our account and therefore we can have no sin according to romans 5 13.
Because where there is no law there is no sin so the all here can only reference the believers because It there are places in the bible that say for example Uh, we have died with to sin. We have died with christ.
We've been crucified to the world and things like this. That can only be the believers and ultimately the elect who are manifest as believers. So in light of that I asked the question Is there any place where it says unbelievers have died with christ died to sin died to the world died to themselves.
The answer is no. When you go to second corinthians 5 14, it says The love of christ controls us having concluded this. That one died for all therefore all died. Who's the all who died. The all who died can only be the elect or those in christ he died for all.
Therefore all died that all he died for can only be the limited group. So when it says second peter 3 9 for all to come to repentance we can make the case that the all theirs Is um the elect. All that the father gives me will come to me.
That's another thing of the elect. So it's certainly possible that that could be what it is and I can get into Other areas of discussion of how I don't have them memorized how um. How god can want one thing and arrange another.
How he can say I want all people to be saved and not arrange it. Or I take no delight in the death of the wicked, but then I can show you verses where he does. He actually says he does. And so there are conditions in which god says one thing and does another but it's not that he's lying or hypocritical.
It's that. There's the concept and i've read about it and discussed it with some other people. Deal with logic and yes, there's ways that this can be made to work very easily and be consistent with scripture.
And answer the difficult questions all at the same time. It just takes another study. And maybe we could do that sometime. Okay, hope that answers. James 5 19 is the same discussion as hebrews 6, right?
I don't know. Don't worry. James 5 19 is. Look it up. I Don't I do it my phone which is so fast or my computer right there. Now I got to go to this old-fashioned thing called a bible in my hand. I'm used to just think everything on online now.
James, where's james? What's james 5 19? Put it in there you bruce. Come on. Whoops. There it is. Yeah. If any of you stray from the truth and one turns back he's talking generically, uh to people and that's one of the things That a lot of christians miss is that god will often speak generically to a whole group of people.
Look repent look do this do that if you you know, if you stray turn them back. He's talking the temporal sense in a visible world. But a lot of times the theological perspective is given from the invisible world.
Those whom he foreknew He also predestined. Let me go to that verse. I just wanted to go to anyway romans 8 29 so I'm gonna go to romans 8 29 because that's an important verse about this stuff. Those of you foreknew He also predestined.
To become conformed to the image of his son so that we would be the firstborn among many brethren so that he would be and Those whom he predestined he also called. And those whom he called he also justified and those whom he justified he also glorified, okay.
Here's a trick question. Does god know everyone. The answer is No. Get away from me. I never knew you. Matthew 7 23. Many will say to me in that day lord lord. They would not prophesy in your name cast out demons your name perform any miracles in your name get away from me.
I never knew you. The word to know there is gnosko. I never knew you. My sheep hear my voice and I know them. Okay, that's john 10 28. My sheep hear my voice and I know them. I should put him on camera.
So they can see how big he is. We have a 10 month old cat here. Let's see if you can see him. Yeah. He's huge. Okay. Anyway. Um. So the word no gnosko designates a saving relationship. Jesus never says I know you to an unbeliever except one place.
But he says I know you you're of your father the devil. And it's not I know you and he leaves it. It's I know you you're of your father the devil and he qualifies it. Because in the inspiration of the truth of god's word when god knows you it means you're saved in galatians 4 8.
When you do not know god you serve by nature those which are not god. But now that you've come to know god or rather are known by him. Now you come to serve the true living god. So the issue is not if you know god, but does he know you?
So that's the word gnosko. Prognosco to foreknow. And notice what it says. Those to me foreknow foreknew. He also predestined. They're the same group the foreknown ones are also the predestined ones to become conformed to the image of his son so that he would be the firstborn among many brethren and those who Pridescent remember the foreknown ones are also predestined ones.
So the foreknown ones are also the predestination those so many predestined. He also called the foreknown ones are also the called those whom he called he also justified. The foreknown ones are also justified those who are justified.
He also glorified. The four known ones are also glorified. Now, wait a minute. If they're already glorified, and that's a problem because they're not yet glorified, because according to 1 Corinthians 15, 35 through 45, we have the glorification of the believer in the resurrected glorified body.
But you'll notice what's happening here. It's spoken of as already happening, already happened in the past tense. Why? What I believe about it is simply this. The guarantee of salvation in Christ is so supreme, so good, so perfect, because God will lose none.
Jesus says he'll lose none, that it can be said we're already glorified. That cannot happen if you can lose your salvation. Simple. Any more questions? Oh, yeah, after Romans 9, people are going over.
I can go through Romans 9 too, but that's another thing. Can God cause a person to believe in him? Yes, Philippians 2, 5 through 8. He moves the heart of the king where he wishes it to go, and that's Proverbs 21, 1.
He grants that we believe, Philippians 1, 29. So you guys down there, you got any questions, let me know online. Proverbs 21, 1. That's right. Charlie's sitting there typing and putting stuff in. He's doing a good job.
You guys got any questions or anything? Now you can see how big he is. Want to see how big he is? Let's see. All right. See, look how big he is. Hold on a sec. Hey, kitty. Yeah, that was intermission.
All right. So let's see. Question on the screen, May. Matt, question on screen. What? Philippians 2, 5 through 8. Yeah. Had this attitude in yourselves, which also is in Christ Jesus, who, although he existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God.
It came to be grasped, but emptied himself, taking the form of a bondservant. He humbled himself to the point of death, even death on a cross. Therefore, the name of Jesus is highly exalted, et cetera.
What? Causing somebody to believe. No, that's Philippians 2. That's the kenosis, the emptying. But he causes us, he grants that we believe. Philippians 1, 29. Now the grant is the aorist passive indicative, which means he's the one bringing the action to us.
He's a monster cat. That's right. I'll hold him up later, put him on my chest. He's like this big. We call him flopper because he's basically a clown car with paws. I've never seen a cat so uncoordinated.
I have a friend that says, unless you repent of your adultery, second marriage, according to her, you cannot be saved. Can you please share your thoughts on this? Sure. I would like to talk to that person because there's circumstances.
Let's say, let's say this. Let's say a man and a woman are married and they're both unbelievers. Then they get a divorce because they didn't like each other. That's it. Not good grounds for divorce. Then he gets married later to another woman.
Is he committing adultery? Yeah, he technically is. But what do you do now? He becomes a Christian. Now what? Does he divorce his present wife? But God doesn't want people to divorce because now that's not a grounds for divorce because the grounds for divorce, Matthew 8, 32.
Nope. Oh, I can't remember. I've got so many verses in my head. I can't remember them all. Uh, adultery and, uh, 1 Corinthians 7, 12, I think it is, or 14 is, uh, abandonment. So, so adultery and abandonment.
Well, now what does the Christian do if he is become the Christian, but his first divorce was not biblical? Is he really divorced? The answer is yes, he really is. Otherwise it wouldn't be called a divorce.
Now he's married somebody else. What we say is stay with your wife. It's before the Lord. It's all cleansed. You move forward. Just leave it at that because you can never go back to the first wife because you've been joined to another.
That's it. So yeah, it was sinful and it's cleansed in the blood of Christ. Now some will say, what if you were a Christian and you got married and you got divorced for an unbiblical reason? Same situation.
Same situation. All right. I believe, okay. Honestly, Angel, if a Christian says that he maintains salvation by being faithful, he's really saved. Is he? That's right. He's arrogant. Honestly, Angel, the question Charlie has put up on the screen.
Thank you, Charlie. Once saved, always saved is false. U-P-Z-Y-Y-S. You know, um, if you want to say that once saved, always saved is false, maybe you might want to use your real name and get some guts and, and stand up and come up to the mic and, and we can come, have you come in the room.
Oh, Charlie had to come back in now. And, uh, you can explain why it's false. Even after an hour of me going through scriptures and if you want to say it's false, uh, then we have questions for you. Are you keeping your salvation by your goodness?
And can you list out what you got to do to be saved? That'd be good. That'd be good. All right. Matt Slick, where is Osip in history? Oh, in history. Oh, that's easy. That's easy. It's in Jesus when he was walking and teaching in John six, it's in the writers of, uh, Paul, the apostle, when he was dealing with the Galatians church, that's where it is in history.
Notice what salvific deputy says. This is, I always get a kick out of people who say, I want to see it in history. I'm not interested in the scriptures, the word of God. I want to see what other people have said, show it to me.
Well, what does the word of God say? Don't make the mistake of thinking that church fathers have gotten it right from the beginning. Don't make that mistake just because they're early on doesn't mean that they're right.
And I'll prove it to you. Let's go to second Thessalonians two, second Thessalonians two, because Gesundheit over there, don't step in that stuff. He just was bad. All right. Second Thessalonians two.
Now we request you brethren with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, verse one, and our gathering together to him that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by spirit or a message or a letter as it from us to the effect of the day of the Lord has come that no one in any way deceive you for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness has revealed the son of destruction who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called God or object of worship so that he takes a seat in the temple of God displaying himself as being God.
So Paul is giving an eschatological instruction based upon what, you know, what he knows that he's giving it to the church. Notice what he said in verse five. Do you not remember while I was still with you, I was telling you these things.
Wait a minute. You mean that the Thessalonians got it wrong. Even when Paul, the apostle was right there and he had already told them oral tradition, tradition, and they were getting it wrong then. So here's a question.
You turn to the church fathers because that's where they go. The church fathers say this. Where's at the church fathers? Well, I can show you church fathers stuff where they contradict each other and themselves.
I say, well, if the Thessalonians were getting it wrong right away, what makes you think all the church fathers got it right? And how do you know which father's got it right? And doesn't it mean you just pick which church father you like, et cetera, et cetera.
That's all it is. So did the church have it wrong, Matt Slick? I don't know. Did everybody everywhere all the time teach the heresy that you can lose your salvation. You got to keep it by being good. I don't know.
So the deputy, is that what you assume that everybody in all the church history all believed that you could lose your salvation and notice, I don't know. I haven't followed the text. Are they dealing with the text that I said, for example, John 6, 37 through 40, what does Jesus say?
And you'll notice this. I've noticed this. Whenever I talk to people about this, they don't go to scripture. They go to the church history. They go to church history because that's where their God is.
That's where their truth is. That's the ultimate authority. The ultimate authority is God himself. And he's revealed his ultimate authority in the word of God. The word of God is inspired, not church history.
The weaklings of theology go to church history. And if you go to the church fathers and the stuff I have on topical index, you will see the church fathers contradict themselves and contradict each other.
And they do. So when they bring that kind of stuff up, I'm like, you're boring me. Come on. Are the church fathers your God or is the Lord your God? That's exactly right. Can you justify why John is biblical?
Yeah, brother. Hey, Saldivic deputy, can you do me a favor? I got something for you, Saldivic deputy. If you're listening, I hope you're listening because this is important. Because what I'd like you to do is take your right hand, your hand, go on.
Can you go like this? Just put it right here. Like straight right here, right like this. Go like this if you can. OK, go like this. Look to your left. Then slap his little beside the head. OK, because that would be good for you to do, to knock that out of your brains.
OK, let's see. And believes in him will have eternal life. That's right. Yes. Yes, I am. Actually, yes, you are. What? People write all kind of stuff in the chat. Yes. Are people listening? There's like 65 people in there right now.
And I'm saying, OK, well, use a complete sentence. I know what you're talking about. You broke my heart, Saldivic heart, Saldivic. Well, hey, dude, Saldivic deputy, why don't you tell us if you want, you can come in here and devices not connected.
That's why that changed. SLC can't get in. You want to come in and argue with me a little bit. Anybody want to come in? Charlie, you can put the URL in. They can come in here. We can get them on the mic and we can argue with them a little bit and we'll see if people can argue their position.
OK. All right, I can do it. Let's see. Oh, wait a second. Oh, very excuse coming up. That's the link. You got it. I have already spoke with you last time you were really toxic. Well, truth is toxic to people who don't like truth.
So go in, Saldivic. Yeah, come on, you can do it. You can do it. What movie that was? You can do it. I remember it was was funny. All right. So change, I'll see you've got to have a microphone or a camera to change.
I'll see you to get in. First, continue 69. Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Exactly correct. The unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God. That's right.
These are fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, effeminate or homosexuals. Read the whole context. Is that talking about Christians? People who are redeemed by the blood of Christ and developed by God who are not fornicating, not committing idolatry.
Are you saying then that what we teach is you can actually go out and just do all these things. It's OK. It's OK to be saved. That's not what we're teaching. Your ignorance comes before you. It's always the case.
Can you disobey Jesus and still go to heaven? Of course you can. How many of you in the room obey Jesus perfectly? No hands. How many of you ever disobeyed Jesus? You should raise both yours. Oh, you did.
OK. So, yeah, keyboard warrior. Why? I know I've known him for longer. You guys have been alive, probably even combined. The Bible study with your eight-year-old daughter this evening about predestination and election.
This is so good right now. Thanking God for you, better man. Praise God, Nina. Nina Oz. Do you have somebody, you know, named Wizard? That's horrible. What? Don't take the bait. Don't take the bait. It's Oz.
Oz. I said they have somebody who knows the name Wizard. It was horrible. I think that Happy Gilmore, you can do it. That's right. I think you're right. Oops. I got that in there. When Jesus says it's finished, was it really finished or was he lying?
Well, I think it was. Who said that? Fred Price or was it Copeland who said when he said it was finished, we know it was not really finished. Yes. Yeah. I would say that Jesus never lied. So when he said it's finished, it's finished.
I'll come and ask questions about some verses. Okay. Come on in and ask questions about some verses. I may have to turn that mic off, this mic here, and then go into this room here, which is, I'm on this, on a laptop.
Use that. I don't know. We'll figure it out. Answer Luke 8 .13. Okay. I'll answer. I'll answer it. Luke 8 .13. I get my Bible. Go. Here it is. Luke 8 .13. It says, those on the rocky soil are those who were here, receive the word with joy, and they have no firm root.
They believe for a while, and in time of temptation, they fall away. Yeah. Jesus is giving parabolic information, and the specific scriptures that teach you cannot lose your salvation have to be also harmonized with this.
If you go to 2 Corinthians 7 .10, you can see that there's a false kind of repentance that is spoken of, and that's what's going on. They believe for a while. It's not true belief. They believe for a little while, and there's different groups of people.
That's all it is. Okay. Come on. I could say to you, answer John 6 .37 -40. Okay. Now, if you want me to answer, you have to answer something as well. John 6 .37 -40. All of the Father who gives me will come to me, right?
All that come to you, I certainly will not cast out, for this is the will of my Father who sent me, that all he has given me, I lose none. Okay. Let me ask you, Saldivic deputy, really quickly, can Jesus lose any when Jesus says, the will of the Father is that he lose none?
Can he lose any? That's all. Answer the question, Saldivic. Can you lose, can Jesus lose any if he says, the will of the Father is that Jesus lose none? Well, I don't care what you say about New Church Father.
I ask you a question. If Jesus said, the will of the Father is that he lose none, John 6 .39, can he lose any? That's the question. Let's see if Saldivic deputy can answer the question. Come on, answer the question.
I'm wrong because I'm a man? Who said that? Cameron? Cameron, come over here. We're talking about it. We just drove by Cameron's house last night, as a matter of fact. Saldivic deputy says no. Now, wait a minute.
Notice this. I asked him to answer. Oh, wait, he did. No, he did do that. So Jesus cannot lose any. Good. So then the Church Fathers were wrong, weren't they, if they taught you could lose your salvation.
Next. I love it when you go to Scripture. It's just, it's just awesome. And my Church Father could beat up your Church Father. That's right. What?
Did you cover Ephesians 1 .13 -14 while we were outside?
We went through it. It's one of the greatest things we'd ever said. You missed it. You're outside Ephesians 1 .13 -14. It was awesome. It was. It was just incredible. Probably won't go the same. In him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation, having also believed you were sealed in him with the Holy Spirit of promise, who was given as a pledge of our inheritance with a view to the redemption of God's own possession to the praise of his glory.
We were sealed. Can't be, well, that reminds me. Something else. Thanks for getting my notes here. Better look at something. Yeah. You were sealed in him with the Holy Spirit of promise, who was given as a pledge.
That's right. You were sealed. It can't be unsealed. There is something about the Greek in, if I got my notes here. Yes, here we go. Where is that? There's a reference to Jesus said in John 6 .35, I'm the bread of life.
He who comes to me will not hunger. And he who believes in me will never thirst. The Greek is, is a very, very strong construction in the Greek signifying it's not even possible, period. Well, never, not even possible.
That's what it's going. I'm the bread of life. He who comes to me will not hunger. Cannot hunger. It's not going to happen. And he who believes in me will never thirst. Will never. Cannot be. Cannot thirst again.
Cannot happen. John 6 .35. Okay. All right. All right. So for those of you who believe you can lose your salvation, can you please just list out the things you've got to do to keep yourself right with the infinitely holy God?
I'd like you to do that in the text. Those of you who are saying that I'm wrong, I want you to list out what it is you have to do in order to keep yourself right with the infinitely holy God. I think that'd be worth it.
I want to see the list and I'll ask a question probably about some stuff, but let's see if they are going to be able to answer the question. What do you have to, what would you guys say? What do you have to do to keep yourself right with God?
Can't do anything. Can't do anything. That's right. So it's a wrong question. It's a wrong question. That's right. There's nothing you can do to keep yourself right with God. That's right. For the ladies though, it's making sandwiches, has something to do with that.
Probably, probably a good thing. But yeah, work out your salvation with fear and trembling. You need to work it out. That's right. Work it out. It means to manifest a salvation that's already there. It doesn't mean you keep it by what you do.
Good article on karma if you can lose your salvation. Okay. So now we're just beating around the bush here. No one's given you a list yet? No one's given me a list. I'm asking. Or told you what you have to do yet?
I want to know what do you got to do in order to, hold on, let me get the microphone up on this person. Let's see if it doesn't echo.
Hello? Yeah. Give me a second. You there? Yes. Okay. Let me, I can't hear you anymore. We can't hear you. We can't hear you still. There's no sound. Okay. Now you can hear me. Wait, speak now. Okay. Now it's working, but there's an echo and you have two camera.
Let's try that. There's even more. It's even worse now. You were predestined. That was predestined, Matt. Can't do anything about it. Right. If I turn it off, they can't hear me here. Well, let me check in the stream.
There's a big echo now. That's.
What I just tried to do. It didn't work. Let me try this. I can't hear you in the stream yard now.
No, I can't. No, I can't hear you. No, there's no sound. Now there's two Matt's like, can't hear you. There you go. Now you can. Yeah. Oh, there's no echo. Okay. Go ahead. What's your question? Took a bit.
Okay. I had some question about some Bible verse. All right. First one was Galatians chapter five verses 19 to 22. How do you relate that?
Okay. Yeah. Just the workers of iniquity and the false people,.
Where's the flesh? Yeah. That's not Christians. Well, but at least a couple of sin, because if you look at it, he mentioned living by the spirit and living by the flesh. Uh, and in Romans eight, he says, if we live by the flesh, we'll die.
If you do, is that what a Christian does live by the flesh?
Well, certain Christian can live. Yeah. There's certain that does that. Yeah. Are you living by the flesh? I try my best not to. So you, so you do then you try your best not to,.
Which means you're not doing it, which means you fail. So you're living by the flesh, right? I guess so. Okay. You're on your way to hell by your own words.
Well, cause, cause, well, I've seen like in the scripture, there's kind of two, when you get born again, yeah. I say something and you ignore it by your own words. You condemn yourself. Well, doesn't.
The scripture says we need to embrace to live by the spirit, which would imply that we also walk by the flesh.
I tell you what, tell us all what things you must do to keep yourself right with God.
Well, we're talking about Galatians five. I don't know what we're moving in another verse.
I already addressed Galatians five. No, you haven't. Talk about those who are working according to the flesh and those who work according to the.
Spirit are not the same group. He's speaking to the believer here, Matt. In Galatians chapter three, he says, you're a son of God. You have been baptized into Christ dead. Okay. He's speaking to the believer here.
Why would he warn the believer if they're already on their way to heaven? That's my question. Galatians five, 19. Yes. Yes, Matt.
Okay. If you're led by the spirit, you're not under the law, right? Yes. Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, immorality, impurity, et cetera, et cetera. Right? Yes. Those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God, right?
Yep. Okay. So idolatry, sorcery, entities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissension, faction, sensuality, impurity, immorality. Is this the Christians?
Well, certain of those, the Christian do such sin like that. It doesn't list that. Is this the Christians? Well, I don't know. It's the Christian. Yeah. He's speaking to Christian. He's warning them.
Yes. If you don't know if it's the Christians, you can't say that it's the Christians. Then you can't use it against the eternal security because you don't know what applies.
To the Christians. Well, hold on. Let me, let me explain what I mean by that here.
Okay. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
Well, you see, that's the thing. That's why I didn't want to come in because I'm trying to.
Okay. I'm going to shut you off for a second. I want you to listen. I answer you. I ask a question. You ignore it and you continue with the same stuff. I don't want you to do that. I want you to actually answer my question.
I want you to address exactly what I say. Don't ignore it and go on. I've asked you for a list. You don't give it to me. We've gone through Galatians 5, 19. I've responded. And then you just ignore it.
If I asked you about John 6, 37 through 40, you already said, no, Jesus cannot fail to do the will of the father. Well, then he can't lose any. You're the one with the problem. Not me. You have to figure this out.
You understand me?
Yes. Yeah. Sorry if I interrupted. But no, I don't think you addressed it. Galatians 5, because that's not a response. Does that speak about the Christian? Well, would you agree that a Christian, even if they're saved, they can still have hatred or commit fornication, right?
Let's say someone commits fornication. That verse seems to imply that they won't enter the kingdom of heaven. That's where my confuse is.
I have a question for you. If you look at a woman with lust, that's adultery, right? If you look at a woman with lust, that's going to be fornication if you're not married, right?
It would be fornication if you're not married. No, the text says that if you sleep with a woman, yes, that would be a fornication.
I'm just going to move along. He's not listening. Does anybody else have any comments or questions? I have a problem discussing things with people when they can't focus on the issues and don't listen to what's really being said.
When you ask them a question, they don't get it. So it's just a problem. So if anybody else... Well, Salvathek, are you going to answer my questions actually? You're going to actually answer instead of argue?
Are you? Yes. Yes. Okay. Now let me ask you something. Did Jesus say that he would lose none? Yes. Can he lose any? No. Can anybody be lost who's already saved? No. Okay. Then you have to deal with Galatians 5 .19 if you want to use it as a statement to say that's the believers.
Yeah, but you see, that's why I jump in because I had some question on that because I struggle with my belief on one save, always save. And that's why I want to clear things out. Okay. That's why because I see it from the historical.
It's not there, but the Bible, those verses seem to imply that Jesus cannot lose you. But after I have problem with other Galatians or Luke 8, stuff like that. So that's why I came in. I have some questions on those.
Galatians 5 is talking about the deeds of the flesh, the unbelievers. Those who walk by the spirit are spoken of later. You don't keep your salvation by walking because that's keeping the law. You don't keep your salvation by what you do.
What Paul is talking about there is the deeds of the flesh and the deeds of the spirit. He's talking generically to the Galatian church. There's a mixture in the Galatian church of the good and the bad, the saved and the unsaved.
So he's going to write in a generic way. Here's the deeds of the flesh. Here's the deeds of the spirit. Make sure you're walking in the deeds of the spirit. He can't say this is the formula you have to go through in order to be saved.
Don't walk in the deeds of the flesh because then that would be works righteousness. He's appealing and he's differentiating. That's why he says in some.
Places, you know, examine. Make sure you're in. Yes, yes. Because the whole reason why I'm looking into this is because I got a really bad experience at the church I went to and stuff like that. So now I'm a bit confused on what to believe or so.
So I'm just looking for truth. That's basically, so that's why I joined. So you would say that Galatian 5 is speaking about, so Paul is speaking to a group of people who are not saved. Does that verse apply for true Christian?
He's talking to the Galatians in Galatia. There are believers and unbelievers. There's a mixture. How would you want him to write something to a mixture of people? If you're of the spirit, you're going to walk this way.
If you have the flesh, you're going to walk that way. Those who walk in the flesh, they're not going to make it. He's just telling them this is the problem.
Oh, okay. But so he's speaking to the Galatians. Okay, I get it. So what about Galatian 5 .4? What about this verse where it says that Christ has become of no effect unto you, whosoever you seek to be justified by the laws.
Yeah, because they want to be circumcised. They.
Want to complete salvation by a ceremony. Notice what he says. I again testify everyone who receives circumcision is under obligation to keep the whole law. It's to the Galatians people. If you go to Galatians 3 .1, he says you foolish Galatians who has bewitched you to think that that which has been begun by the spirit can be perfected by the flesh.
So he's talking about the Galatians to the Galatian people, the Judaizers who wanted people to get circumcised in order to be saved. He says if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you.
He says, I again testify every man who receives circumcision, he's under obligation to keep the whole law. You've been severed from Christ. Notice the word severed in relationship to circumcision. You're seeking to be justified by the law.
You've fallen from grace. It doesn't mean they're not saved because the grace of God had been bestowed upon people in many ways, to the person in the incarnation, the work of Christ, as well as the movement of the Holy Spirit upon people, as well as the teaching of the apostles and the covenant work of God to the people.
And so the Judaizers knew the grace of God. They've fallen from that very grace of God's kindness and mercy. It doesn't mean that they were saved and then they fell from the salvation.
Because Jesus said he'd lose none. Okay. So there were, so were they, could you, we even say that those people were under common grace, the people who fall from the grace in Galatians 5 .4? Because I've seen like other explanation.
I don't know if you've seen the free grace interpretation of that verse, but they think that those people are actually saved people who are, that are just being deceived by another gospel. So do you think,.
Do you think that's false? It can't be. They can't lose their salvation. I finally picked up, made a comment. I thought you were an antagonist. You and I have talked before. I recognize your voice, but now I get it.
You're just, you know, you're just asking questions. I get that. So sorry about that. But look, we cannot lose our salvation. And the, when you have a, there's a principle of biblical interpretation. When you have sets of scriptures on a topic and you have one set that's very clear and another set in the same topic that's not very clear, you interpret the not very clear verses in light of very clear verses.
We know, for example, that Jesus says in John 6, 37 through 40, you know, he's talks about the eternal salvation. He talks about, let's see, is it there? Nope. It says that he will lose none. It's very clear.
There's other verses, you know, you know, that eternal life will never perish. Jesus talks like this. Well, if that's the case, that's clear. Jesus says he will lose none. That's the will of the father.
So he can't lose any. That's clear. Now we go to Galatians 5. It's not that clear because he's talking to the Judaizers who want people to be circumcised. And he's saying, this is, is not true gospel.
This is not true salvation. It's works, righteousness. You're under obligation to keep the whole law. You've been severed from Christ and the severing would be understood by the Judaizers. If you go down to verse 12, I wish that those who are troubling you would even mutilate themselves.
He's talking about the male organ being severed and mutilated. This is what he's saying to the Judaizers. That he's not teaching that they lose their salvation.
Yeah. Yeah. And it's like, whenever I've seen your debate with Dr. San Yannis, the Catholics apologetic guys. And it's like, whenever we speak on that topic, you know, it's like what they have to say.
They said that they believe they can lose their salvation as their works can save them. But Matthew 7 says that, you know, if you believe that you'll hurt you know, depart from me because, you know, they would trust to their keeping of the law.
So, you know, when you, when you point out to Catholics that, you know, what you did, you point out that verse to him and he had like no answer that, you know, and it's like, it's like, for me, it's like, Christ is the Lamb of God who comes to take the sin.
And it's like, if you can lose your salvation, that's why I'm kind of confused because I don't want to be trusting my works, but it seems like if I can't lose it, it's going to lead to, yeah,.
I have to trust my works. You can't lose it as long as your faith is in Christ and God's one who gives you that faith. Every good and perfect gift comes from God, James 1 17. You're justified by faith when you have faith, the faith that God grants to you.
And Jesus says, all who the father gives me will come to me and will not cast them out for this is the will of my father, that everyone who comes to me, I will not cast out, but raise them up on the last day.
The will of the father is that Jesus lose none. And if you believe it's because God granted you belief. It's a perfectly good enough gift for you to be saved. You're secure in Christ. Don't let anybody else trouble you.
Just as Paul was saying, you say that, you know, those people were troubling you because in Galatians 5 10, I have confidence in you and the Lord that you will adopt no other view, but the one who is disturbing you will bear his judgment, whoever he is.
But I brethren, if I still preach circumcision, why am I still persecuted? Then the stumbling block of the cross has been abolished. I wish that those who are troubling you would even be mutilate themselves for you were called to freedom.
Brethren, not only, uh, only do not turn your freedom into an opportunity for the flesh, but through love, serve one another. This answers verse actually really since 513 answers the question of the people who say, well, we can go out and sin all we want and be saved.
Don't turn your freedom to an opportunity of the flesh. But at any rate, and he goes on, he deals with that. He says in verse 16, walk by the spirit. You'll not carry out the desires of the flesh, but we know that the atonement of Christ canceled the sin that that's at Colossians 2 14.
He didn't cancel it partially. He didn't cancel it. Maybe he didn't cancel it. Then uncancel it. He certainly doesn't make you born again. If you lose salvation, then make you unborn again. He doesn't play games.
And Jesus says, all the father gives me will come to me and he'll not lose any. That's the will of the father. If Jesus loses any than the father, I mean, he's sinned against the father. So when you come to these other verses as in Galatians and other places and like first Corinthians six, what he's talking about is the people who are in this group in that church.
They're good people. There's bad people. There's believers. There's unbelievers. There's mixture. How does he address them? He's not even there. He's heard things. He's going to write a letter. The letter is going to be sent in a few weeks.
It might get to them. And then they get to read this letter. He has to address enough stuff to say, look, if you walk by the flesh, you're in trouble. Don't do that. Walk by the spirit. He's not saying you get the spirit by what you do, because we know that's not the case.
But he's talking about those, the Judaizers who think that they have to keep themselves right with God by what they do. But if you go to Romans two, Romans two one, you're guilty of what it is you accuse others of doing.
Paul routinely accused the Jews of being hypocrites. And he said that you Jews mock and laugh at the Gentiles, but they're the ones who had a law written in your heart. And you being a Jew, you have the oracles of God.
Second Corinthians, I mean, Romans two, 17. He's talking to the Jews. He's spanking all over them. He's just slapping them around. You're saying, look, you guys think you got it together. You guys think you got to do it by the law.
Well, then why is it that you don't even do what you say you're supposed to be able to do? His theme is regular. If you're going to live by the law, you got to keep that law. And so he's talking to the Judaizers.
You walk by the flesh, you're not saved because they put their hope and their emphasis in the law. Just as Jesus did when the rich young ruler came to him, the lawyer, and said, what do we do to be saved?
He said, well, what does the law say? Because the guy said, what do I have to do to be saved? Jesus answered him according to what he desired. And it's by their own standard, you're going to be judged, the Bible says.
I forgot where that is, but it's true. So the Judaizers were wanting to keep themselves saved by within the law. And he's showing the works of the law and the works of the flesh. But he'd also said in Galatians 3, you foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you to think that that which had been done by the spirit could be perfected by the flesh.
That's what he says. But besides, you know, Jesus Christ is publicly portrayed as crucified. This thing is, this is what I want to know on Find Out Among You. Did you receive the spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith?
So earlier, he's distinguishing between the law, Galatians 5 .19 and following, and Galatians 5 .22 with the spirit. Are you so foolish? Having been begun by the spirit, you're now being perfected by the flesh.
And what he's alluding to is the issue of circumcision. What I was mentioning earlier is Paul uses high sarcasm and extreme hyperbole. He's saying, if you guys think it's spiritual to be a Christian by getting circumcised, he uses the word in the Greek, imasculos.
Cut it all off, you guys. And it was a shocking term for them. Imasculate yourself if you think that's spiritual. And he was making up, making fools of them and showing them what fools they were to require law keeping like that.
Exactly.
Yeah. And that's the whole thing, because, you know, you point out Galatians 3 in that same verse, you know, and it's like you point out, it's whether by faith alone or by faith plus work. But in that same verse, he says, faith, you know, apart from works.
So that's kind of faith alone there. Faith apart from works, that's James 2. What I'm saying on Galatians 3, where he says in Galatians, you know, and for me that that teach faith alone in the Galatians 3, I think it's it's verse 8.
He says that God will justify the hidden to faith. You know, it's somewhere in Galatians 2 where he says, you know, it's faith apart from any work. So that for me, that's that's.
Faith alone in that verse. Galatians 3, 8. Forseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preach the gospel before Abraham, saying all the nations will be blessed in you.
Solve it. Yeah, exactly. And just because I'm going to go, but I just had a question to you guys. Most of my friends are new independent fundamental Baptist, so they follow Stephen Anderson. And that's that's that's why I had a bad experience about Christianity, because I realized I was in the cold following him.
OK, good. Yeah. OK, so so I just had a question because he teach a doctrine called the reprobate doctrine that like no homosexual can be saved, even if they repent. And I was just wondering, because I always go to 1 Corinthians where it says, you know, some were such a view, the homosexual, you speak about homosexual, but they're King James only exist.
And I just wanted to know if you know what the word abuser of themselves, what mankind is translated in the Greek, if it actually means homosexual.
Arsene Coitus. In 1 Corinthians six, nine, it means man better. OK, but in Romans one, twenty six through 30 ish, it talks about the unnatural, you know, man abandons the natural function of the woman for one and burns lust with one another.
It's condemning homosexuality. So but Anderson, I've offered to debate him on some various issues. I've never heard anything from him. But don't listen to that guy. He will mess you up. OK. Yeah, that's what I realized.
Yeah. Yeah. Well, thank you very much, Matt, for answering my question about misunderstanding you earlier. But OK. Yeah, I reflect on everything that we talked and I really appreciate you.
Are you on on a politic and religion? Yeah. On the server.
Yes, I guess. Yeah, I think I've already joined your open stream too before. OK, that's why. Never mind. OK, good. I've actually had because you asked me a question about Romans four or five last time and I had no answer for that.
But now I've came up with an answer. Apart from your point of view, would you do you mind if I see it? Then we cross examine it real quick. Sure. So the Romans four or five to him that that work it not that refers.
So that's the explanation I've seen that refers to the works of the lost circumcision and not from every works because there's the work of God to inner salvation. So that would refer only to circumcision.
Let me tell you why it doesn't work.
You ready? Yep. First one of Romans four. What then shall we say that Abraham or forefather according to the flesh is found for Abraham was justified by work. She has something to boast about, but not before God.
Was Abraham before the law? Yes. But what does the scripture say? Abraham believed God was credited as righteousness. So the belief was before the codification of the right? Yep. Now to the one who works his wages, not credit as a favor, but what is due to what it does not work, but believes on him who justifies it and godly.
And notice what's going on. If verse two, if Abraham was justified by works, that's past tense. He has something to boast about, but not before God. What does the scripture say? Abraham believed God past tense credit of his righteousness to the one who works present tense.
His wage is not credit as a favor, but what is due but to the one who does not work present tense, but believes in him who justifies the ungodly his faith is credited as righteousness. Just as David also speaks of the blessing of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works.
So now before and after the law is given.
Righteousness is by faith. Yeah. So that can be speaking about circumcision. Since circumcision wasn't, yeah, that makes sense. Thanks for answering.
That's right. Abraham was justified before he was circumcised.
Yeah. And it's like, they always go to James two, but like for me, like it's clear in Romans one, that Abraham, if he was justified by works, it was not before God.
But not for God. That's right. That's vertical justification before people. Okay. I mean, before God, James two is justification before people. All right.
But why would he bring up though? And the part that wasn't Abraham or father justified by works when he offered Isaac on the altar, if that's before a man, like who was there to watch Abraham.
Sacrificing his son on the altar? James two is justification before people. James two 14. Let's see. You still there? Abraham told his servants before he took the boy up on the hill, we will be back. That's right.
That's why the dead giveaway language in James is you show me and I'll show you. Okay. That's not God language. God already knows. That's right. He started in verse 14 of James two. What use is it my brethren?
If someone says he has faith, but he has no works, can that faith save him? If a brother or sisters without clothing and in need of daily food, one of you says to them, go in peace, be warm to be filled.
And yet you're not giving what is necessary for their body. What use is that? Even so faith, if it has no works is dead, that faith, right? But some of them may well say, you show me, it says you have faith and I have works.
Show me your faith without the works. I will show you my faith by my works. So it's not talking about justification before God is justification before man. That's what verse 18 is saying. You show me, I'll show you.
It's horizontal. In verse 19, you believe that God is one, you do well, the demons believe also and they tremble. Are you so willing to recognize you foolish fellow that faith that works is useless before people?
Because if you say, Hey, go be warned to be filled. You're not helping them. Real faith manifests. This is the difference between fiducia and Ascensia. Ascensia is simply mental ascent about a devil believes in God, but he's not saved.
That's Ascensia. Fiducia is a heartfelt trust. James is talking about the difference between Ascensia and fiducia and justification before people. That's what I mean, I mean, uh, James two 18 is talking about.
That's why it says in verse 21, that Abraham, our father was justified by works when he offered up Isaac, his son on the altar. He's not talking about justification before God. And the reason we know that is when you go to Galatians, I mean, Romans four one, it says, what then shall we say that Abraham or that our forefather to our forefather Abraham for Abraham was justified works.
He has something to boast about, but not before God. That's what Romans four one and two says. But James two, it talks about Abraham with justification before people. James two is on the horizontal justification before people.
Romans four is on the vertical justification between people and God.
So Romans four before God, James two before men.
Yes, because Romans four, what then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the found for Abraham was justified by works. He has something to boast about, but not before God. The justified by works is James two.
He can boast about what he's done before people. This is what I've done, but not before God. See, I can say to people, look, yeah, I'm a Christian. I do radio. I write books. I argue, I teach, I got a huge website.
I'm showing people. Yeah, I'm a, I'm a Christian. I've confessed to my Lord and look what I do. I'm proving it. I don't do that before God. Hey God, look how good I am. God, I've done that. You got to deserve a lightning bolt, you know?
All right. Cause our works are filthy rag before him. What? Before God. I said our works are filthy rag before God. So we couldn't be justified by filthy rag.
Oh yeah. Right. As I said, 64, six or right. Righteous deeds are filthy rags and filthy rags in Hebrew means used menstrual cloths.
Yeah. So that's not going to justify you far away. Yeah.
You got that right. That's why justification by faith alone in Christ alone, because Jesus, God in flesh never sinned. First Peter two 22 and he died. And if we trust in him, we're justified by faith apart from any works because all your works and my works are touched by filthy rags.
That's it. We have nothing we can bring to the cross. Nothing, nothing good. The only thing we can bring is a bag full of used menstrual cloths. That's it. You know, and I picture the cross on a small hill and it's muddy and it's mucky and it's dirty.
And I'm walking up there and I got this bag of crap on my shoulder and I dropped to my knees and I push it onto the ground in front of me and push it towards him. That's the best I got. And that's nothing right.
So I'm not even going to bring that. What I'm going to do is go, so to speak naked before the cross, put my face down and say, you're all I have. That's justification by faith because it's faith in Christ, not faith in anything I can do or bring.
With Christ. Makes sense. Yeah, exactly. Because otherwise if you have to answer by faith or, Oh, well, I'll take, I'll get baptized. I've got baptized, but Jesus is going to say, get away from me. You know, so there's either by faith alone.
All right. Thank you very much, Matt. Now I'm going to, I'm going to let you guys speak with the other guys. All right. God bless.
Okay. God bless. All right. Okay. Giro, gyro, whatever it is.
You guys hear me or am I quiet? I just had a quick question because I couldn't, because I'm trying to go quickly. So Book of Revelation.
Book of Revelation. Yeah. Chapter three. Chapter three. Yeah.
So would you, would you say true Christians names are written in the book of life? Yeah. Okay. So can you go to verse five and just read it quick?
Uh-huh. He who overcomes must be clothed with white garments. I will not erase his name in the book of life and I'll confess his name before my father and before his angels. Yes.
Yeah. So my question would be if these, if the church of Sardis didn't do what Jesus said, Jesus would have blotted their names of the book of life, correct? Okay. Let's go with that. Yeah. Yeah. So, um, my question is, doesn't that like kind of disprove once they've always saved because Jesus is saying the true Christians that their names will be blotted out of the book.
Of life. No, it doesn't say that. He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments, which is a symbol of righteousness. And I will not erase his name from the book of life. What is the book of life?
Is the book of life that book, which means you're guaranteed to have salvation in it, or is the book of life the book of all peoples who are alive, who've ever lived. And that when you die without Christ, your name is written, is erased from the book of life.
One of the reasons that's part of the theory of what it is is because there were towns in that time and period, you go to the gates and you would have books written or, you know, you call it a book of the names of all the people in that town at that time.
And when they died, they would cross your name out. Didn't mean it didn't exist anymore. And so some people think that it might be that he won't, you know, that your name will never be written, blotted out because you're in Christ.
You have that. But if, if you were never in Christ, your name will be brought it out of the book of life. That's one.
Of the theories behind that. Okay. So just some, let me correct me if I'm wrong, but you're saying that verse five isn't talking about the Lamb's book of life? Well, it doesn't say the Lamb's book.
Of life, but here's another thing about it. It says, I will not erase his name out of the book of life. If it means that the book is for those who have eternal life, you'll have white garments, you'll not be blotted out.
It's assurance. Okay. That's, that's interesting. I wasn't, I wasn't prepared to hear that answer. What church do you go to?
I don't, it's like a Pentecostal, but I don't, I haven't been going. Okay. Is it United Pentecostal? It's, I'm not too sure, but it's really like the only church that is besides Catholic or whatever. So I don't really go to it because there's a lot of false teachings and stuff, but I do Bible studies and stuff with my pastor, but I don't really go like.
What city and state you live in. If you don't have to tell me, but I'm just curious. Oh, Canada. That's bad news. So what I would do if I were you is see if you can go to CARM. You know about my website CARM,.
Right? Oh, I think so. I haven't been to it, but that's okay. Description. Just what's that? Is it in your description? Like for YouTube videos?
CARM .org. C-A-R-M dot O-R-G. Okay. So what you could do is you go to Google, you could type in the word CARM, C-A-R-M. That'll get you to the site, but type in CARM and then what to look for in a church.
And the article will come up on the website. The things to look for in a church. It'll give you what you need to look for. And then you can call churches up and interview them or look in their statement of faith.
If they have women pastors, stay away. Teach you can lose your salvation. Stay away. Okay. The various things like this, and there's stuff in there and there are good places to look and learn. Dare I say, listen to my radio show five days a week.
Yeah, I know. I've, I've, I've watched a couple of.
Your videos, not for theology or anything, but just like a few debates. Okay. Well,.
What I would also recommend is go to CARM and look up the Christian theology section and start reading and always check everything I've written there against the word of God. You make sure that what I'm saying is biblical.
Yeah, of course. All right. Yeah. I dropped in a link for gyro, Matt, for, that's been a very reliable link from the master seminary on how to find a church near you. That's a decent church. And I've found when I've checked out the statements of faith all over the world for the ones they recommend, they've been pretty sound.
Pretty soon. Okay, good. Yeah. So that link has been useful for me. Okay. I'll, I'll, uh, I'll look into it. Yeah. And you know, keep in contact with us. Okay.
Yeah, I will. I just, I don't, I wouldn't say I'm completely sold on one saved, always saved because I've heard both sides and I would just say that one saved, always saved doesn't seem.
To line up with verses like revelation three, revelation three does not prove the book of.
Revelation. Like I find it really hard to grasp that that's one saved, always saved.
Well, how about this? How about this? Jesus says in John six 37 through 40, he says, all that the father gives me will come to me. And the ones who come to me, I certainly will not cast out for this is the will of my father that all that he has given me will come to me.
But he says, well, this is what my father that always given me of them. I lose none, but raise it up on the last day. So the question then becomes, can Jesus lose any? No. Then you can't.
Lose your salvation. Can you, but I would say, I would say Jesus couldn't lose any, but I would say you could mess it up for yourself. Okay. Yeah. For example, like, um, if I start walking in the flesh as a, as a Christian, I don't think Jesus is gonna accept you when you, when you die.
I don't think you're walking in the flesh. He'll discipline you. You don't think he'll, uh, blot out your name up from the book of life? No, he, because he's already canceled your sin dead at the cross.
Colossians 2, 14, you're justified when you believe Romans five, one, and that he disciplines those whom he loves. If you start walking in the flesh, he's going to spank you all over the place. He's going to discipline you.
Doesn't say he's going to leave.
You. Okay. That's actually a, hold on. I got to get a verse real quick. Cause that just brought.
Something to mind. Yeah. He was 12, five, six. I think it was first John, first John one, seven, first John one, seven. Yeah. First John one, seven. Yeah. We say we have no sin.
We deceive ourselves. No, no, no, no. Wait, no, that's not the one. It's a, but if we walk in the light as he's in light, we have fellowship with one another and the blood of Jesus Christ, uh, Jesus Christ, his son cleansed us from all sin.
I would say this is like, this is like conditional. This is saying if we walk in the light and it's implying if we don't walk in the light, we don't have Jesus's blood, uh, forgiving our sins. Okay. Are you walking in the light?
Yeah. As long as you're walking in the spirit. Okay. So as long as you are good, you'll stay.
Saved. Um, no, no, that's not what I would say. I would say as long as I'm faithfully to God, which I would say is walking in the light.
So walking in the light's a good thing, right? Of course. So you are keeping yourself saved by your goodness?
No, I'm working out my salvation. That's already been provided.
What do you, what do you mean working it out? That's Philippians 2 13. What do you mean working?
Yeah. Like working it out. So when he says working, work out your salvation with fear and.
Trembling, I interpret that as walking in the light. So as long as you're walking in the light,.
You're, you keep yourself saved. Yeah. As long as I follow Jesus. Yeah. Cause you got to obey Jesus, right? That's what like, I don't.
So then what you're saying then is as long as you do the things that he wants you to do,.
You'll keep yourself saved. Yeah. As long as I do the things Jesus wants me to do.
So is there any room for error? For sin?
Yeah. Yeah, of course.
So if you walk in the light, that means don't sin, right?
No. So you can sin? No, no, no. So it says when you're walking in the light, you have the Jesus blood cleansing you from all sin. So that would include mess ups, right? So I would say someone who's walking in the light, isn't going to go to like, isn't going to practice sin.
Someone who's walking the light is going to still mess up, but he's not going to go live in that sin.
Okay. So as long as you keep a certain level of goodness, you'll be okay.
As long as I obey Jesus and live faithfully to him.
Okay. So then, let me ask you, are you agree with this statement? We're saved by grace through faith after all we can do? Of course. That's the Book of Mormon, 35, 1918. Or no, what? Second Nephi 25, 23.
Okay.
Not Book of Mormon. I thought you were quoting Ephesians. No, I quoted the Book of Mormon. Okay. Well, I misheard you. I don't, I'm not a Mormon. I agree with you're saved by grace through faith.
You're teaching the same thing the Mormons teach.
I'm teaching what the Bible teaches, I would say. That's why you're trying to get you to correct me.
Jesus said he would lose none. And the issue is that it's between the father and the son. The will of the father is that Jesus lose none. And Jesus says all who believe in him will have eternal life and he will raise them up.
That's the will of the father, that everyone who believes in him, that he will raise. So you're saying that Jesus is failing to do the will of the father.
No, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying belief, saying you believe entails with faith. And faith without works is dead. So you could say you have faith, but fruits is the evidence of your faith because you're only saved by faith in Jesus.
Fruit is the evidence because of your faith. It's the evidence of your faith because you're regenerated, but that's not what saves you. The fruit doesn't save you.
Oh no, I agree. I agree. The fruit doesn't save you. Jesus does. Jesus saves you.
Is walking in the light bearing fruit? Yeah. So then you said the fruit is not what saves you, but you've got to walk in the light, which is bearing fruit in order to be saved, which is it?
No, no, no, no. Ask that again. Ask that again, please.
Walking in the light, is that a good fruit? Okay. Are we saved by our bearing of fruit? No. Do we keep ourselves saved by bearing fruit?
No, but you're working out yourself. Well, you're working out your salvation.
Well, wait, wait. Stick on the topic. You said walking in the light is bearing fruit, and that's what you have to do in order to keep yourself saved, but walking in the light is bearing fruit, but you said we're not saved by bearing fruit.
So which is it? You can't have both.
Yeah. So you're saved by faith, but the fruits is something that comes with that faith. So for example, if I was walking in the light and I go off and I'm walking in darkness now, I'm practicing sin. I'm not bearing good fruits.
For how long? For how long? One day? What do you mean? How long can you... How much sin or how much not walking in the light you have to commit.
In order to lose your salvation? Just living in darkness, living in sin. For how long? I don't think there's a specific time.
And how do you know how long it is or isn't?
No, it's not about how long it is or isn't. It's about if you're in the light or you're in darkness. For example, today, if I just go off and I just, just, if I go and practice sin, I'm not walking in the light anymore.
I'm walking in darkness. And the blood of Jesus won't cover my sin.
Let's just say, let's just say that, let's see, let's accuse you of something bad. Let's see. Let's see. Okay. You, you're walking today, you're going along, and you totally lust after a woman, let's just say.
Okay. Sure. So you're walking in the flesh, right? Yes, I am walking in the flesh. Okay. Are you saved right then and there?
Yes, because the blood of Jesus covers me from all sin. And I wasn't, I wasn't thinking or.
Predetermining doing that sin. Oh, yes, you were. You were doing it on purpose because you're the.
One doing the lusting. No, no, I hold 100 accountability, but I didn't go out that day.
Thinking, oh, I'm going to go lust after a woman. It doesn't matter. You did it. You were not walking in the light that period of time, were you?
Um, no, that's, that's a mess up. But I said, uh, walking in the light entails mess ups.
Is it sin? Yeah, it is sin. So you sin, so you, you, you can sin and you do it again the next day, you see her again. And the next day you're struggling with it. You keep doing this failure. So you're the one who said you got to walk in the light to keep yourself right.
And apparently in this situation, you're not. So how is it that you can keep yourself saved if you continually mess up?
Okay. Well, you don't continually mess up. For example, if I see that, if I know I'm going to walk today, I know that girl's going to be there. I'm not, I'm not going to, I'm not going to walk that way or I'm going to cover my eyes or do something like that.
Yeah. And then what you do is you don't go that way. You get your car and you drive someplace else. And then you get a little road rage problem because someone in Idaho doesn't know how to the four-way stops.
And so you get upset about somebody, unrighteous anger. There you go again, you're blowing it again. And then someone says something you don't like and you're unrighteously angry with them. And let's not mention the pride that you can feel in your heart.
And like, you know, just saying we, we get prideful. Hey, look at me, man. Look at me. I can do this. I can do that. We get prideful. You see, if you want to say you have to walk in the light in order to keep yourself saved, you're saying you keep yourself saved by what you do.
It's works.
Okay. I think, um, I wouldn't say, I wouldn't say it's the words that, that save you. I would say it's faith because my genuine faith is producing these works, but I'm not going to say like... No, your faith is not.
No, it is.
Your faith is not producing works. How isn't it? It's the spirit in you through regeneration that's producing the works. Faith is a concept, it's an abstraction that you have in God. And because of this thing that God grants you the faith, Philippians 129, he grants it, you believe.
And because he regenerates you, 2 Corinthians 5, 17, you're born again, John 3, 3 -8, then you are enabled to do good works, but that those good works don't keep you saved.
Yeah. Yeah. I didn't, I didn't say works, works save you at all. I wasn't trying to imply that.
Yes, you did. You did. You have to walk in the light in order to keep yourself right. That's works.
No, it's not works because genuine faith will have you walking in the light. You can't see genuine faith when you're walking in darkness.
What he's trying to say is that if you unintentionally don't walk in the light, that's different than if you intentionally walk in the light. So, accidental sin is okay.
Yeah. Every sin that I commit is pardoned as long as I'm walking in the light, and walking in the light is obeying Jesus.
So, then your sins are taken away by your continued action of walking in the light.
No, by Jesus' sacrifice and my faith in that sacrifice and that true faith.
Let me ask you, when was, if you're a Christian, okay, when was all of your sins canceled?
The moment I repent and put my faith in Jesus.
But that's not true. That's not true. How is it not true? Colossians 2 .14, he canceled the certificate of debt, consisting of decrees which was hostile to us, he took it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.
The sin debts canceled at the cross. Colossians 2 .14, okay?
Okay, yeah. But I was just trying to say, like, as soon as I put my faith in Jesus, we're going to differ there because I'm not Reformed theology. I'm pretty sure you are. I just quoted you scripture.
Yeah, I know. I heard you. Colossians 2 .14, because it says in the previous verse, having forgiven us all of our sins, verse 14, having canceled the certificate of debt, consisting of decrees which was hostile to us, he took it out of the way, having nailed to the cross.
When did Jesus cancel the sin debt?
If you're talking about for everyone, then on the cross, of course.
No, I don't believe it was for everyone. But he says it's on the cross. That's what the text says, right? Yeah, yeah. I agree with that. How is it that you can have your sin debt continually canceled and cleansed by your walking?
Because that sacrifice is conditional. As long as my faith is in Jesus, that true faith, will produce those works. For example, if I say, kind of what James talks about, if I say I have faith and I go walk in darkness, that's not real faith.
How can I say I have faith and I'm doing all these wicked things?
You still don't understand the gospel yet.
No, I do. I'm not saying that your works save you. I'm saying it's your faith that justifies you, but that faith will produce those works. It's not the works that save you.
Faith doesn't produce the works. Let me give you an illustration of something. Jesus canceled the sin debt at the cross. There's a man and he's on his way to the bank. Every first of the month, he goes to the bank and pays a $1 ,000 mortgage on his house.
Every month he does. And on the way this one particular day, he's in a car accident and he ends up in a coma for a few weeks in a hospital. And he can't pay his debt. A philanthropist hears about this guy's problem and the philanthropist goes to the bank and pays the debt.
Pays his mortgage. Is it paid? Of course. Does it exist anymore? No, the debt doesn't exist. Exactly. The man wakes up and he finds out someone paid it, but he doesn't accept it. Does it mean then that because he doesn't like it, doesn't accept it, does it mean that the debt becomes unpaid?
Hold on. That kind of confused me there. Say that again.
The man wakes up and finds out that someone paid off his entire mortgage, but he isn't like that. He goes, I don't like that. Well, does that have any bearing on whether or not it was paid for or not?
I mean, I see you're trying to correlate this to Jesus, but I don't...
Does it have any bearing on whether or not it's paid for or not? No. When Jesus canceled the sin debt, does it have any bearing on you whether or not it's already canceled?
Okay. I'm going to answer this, but it's not going to be a quick answer. I would say no, it is not dependent upon me. But if Jesus says you have to do this, for example, Revelation 3 .5, he says, if you don't repent, your name will be blotted out of the book of life.
Now, if I didn't... Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. What does it say? If you don't repent,.
Your name will be blotted out. No, no, no. Not repent. The one who overcomes. So, if you do not overcome...
The one who's saved will never have his name blotted out of the book of life, right? It doesn't say they can lose their salvation. The sin debt's canceled by Jesus at the cross. Not when you walk in the light and not by your continued effort.
So, how do you answer 1 John 1 .7? How do you even interpret that?
If we walk in the light, he's simply addressing, he's addressing the... What the heck? Okay. Wow. Sorry, I closed the program accidentally. So, when he says, if we walk in the light, he's saying, if we do this, Jesus cleanses us, right?
Is he saying that Jesus cleanses us because we walk in the light? I don't know. I don't know. Well, then does he cleanse us based on our works? He cleanses us based on our faith. Well, then how is walking the thing that cleanses us if we're justified by faith?
Well, because the me walking is a result of my faith.
If we walk in the light... Let's read the whole thing. Look. Verse 5, this is the message we have heard from him and announced to you, that God is light, and in him, there is no darkness at all. If we say we have fellowship with him, and yet we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth.
So, if you say you're a Christian, and yet you're doing evil things, you're a liar. You're not really saved, are you? Nope. You're not really having fellowship with him, are you? Nope. But if we walk in the light as he himself is in the light, we have fellowship with one another.
And the blood of Christ cleanses us from sin, from all sin. Does it say, wait a minute, does it say in that verse that the blood of Jesus cleanses us because we're walking in the light? I think it implies it.
Does it say it? It implies it, though. I mean... Where does it imply it? If we walk in the light as he is in the light, we have fellowship.
And the blood of Jesus covers us from all sin. So, that implies if you don't walk in the light, you don't have that.
Okay. So, if you don't walk in the light, then the blood of Christ does not cleanse you, right? Yes. Who are those who don't walk in the light?
Those who practice sin, just like Jesus says, all you who practice iniquity. Those are the people who don't walk in light.
Who are the ones who practice sin?
Anybody. Anybody. Okay. That could be lukewarm Christians. That could be really anybody.
Look, once you practice sin are the unrighteous and the unregenerate. We practice righteousness. You gotta understand something. We can't sin as Christians because we've died with Christ, Romans 6, 6, Romans 6, 8.
Romans 7, 4 says he who has died is freed from the law. That means there is no law for us if we've died with Christ. And the Bible says, 1 John 3, 4, the breaking of the law is sin. We've died with Christ, but the Bible says he who has died is freed from the law.
Without the law, there is no sin, Romans 5, 13. If we've died with Christ, we're crucified with Christ, Romans 6, 6, died with him, Romans 6, 8, then it cannot be technically that we have any sin because the law doesn't have any jurisdiction over us because we died with Christ.
So, as a Christian, you cannot sin.
That's why the Bible says in 1 John, he who is of Christ does not sin. I believe that the reason is because it's looking at us in Christ.
Okay, I see how you're looking at it.
And then it says if you are practicing sin, the only way to practice sin is to be under that law. I would disagree. But well, then how can anyone sin if there is no law?
Because we're under the new covenant with Jesus and Jesus did. I agree with you. The Ten Commandments are...
Yeah, I didn't ask for the new covenant. I said, I didn't ask for the new covenant. I said, if we have died to the law, we're not under the law anymore. How can we then sin? Okay, give me one sec. One sec, one sec.
This guy just wants to believe that you keep your salvation.
I actually don't. I'm just, I want to read all the points I can right now. No, I don't.
No, you want to because you're defending that position. You're defending the position. Well, I have to in order to learn. That you keep your salvation by how you walk with Christ. Yeah. So then your salvation depends on your goodness before Jesus.
It depends on my obedience, my faith to him. But faith will produce the works and the obedience.
No, I say one thing, you say another. I say walk in the light, walk in with Jesus and you change it to faith. You keep doing that. You're saying that your salvation is dependent on your walk, how you're walking in the light with Jesus, right?
Well, that's the thing. You're trying to make it like walking in the light is a work, which it is. But I'm not saying that saves you. I'm saying your faith, which produces you walking in the light. But it's not the work that saves me.
It's the faith. You're going to Roman Catholic stuff. No, I'm not a Roman Catholic. That's what Roman Catholicism teaches. You just taught Roman Catholic theology in condign and congruent merit.
Well, I agreed. Not everything the Catholic Church knows is wrong.
I'm just telling you, you're teaching what Catholic theology teaches. I also quoted 2 Nephi 25, 23, where it says that we're saved by grace through faith after all we can do. What I could also do is go to the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society and reference the quotes we don't have quite memorized, where it says that there's things you got to do to keep yourself right.
And one of them is follow the commandments of God. You got to follow what he says. And the commandments of Christ are love God and love your neighbor, right? Yeah. Is that walking in the light? Yeah. So you have to love God and love your neighbor in order to be saved, right?
No. No? Actually, I would say, yeah, let me redo what I was going to say. I don't like those answers because it's not, do those save you? It's like your faith saves you. But how do you test if your faith is real or not?
It's by the words.
Your faith doesn't save you. Your faith doesn't. Because you don't have that faith in Christ alone. You have faith in your ability to walk in the light. And let me ask you, is loving God and loving your neighbor, to do that, is it walking in the light?
Yeah. Yeah, of course. Jesus said in Matthew 22, 37, that the greatest commandment was to love God. And in two verses later in verse 39, to love your neighbor is the second greatest commandment. Love God and love your neighbor.
He said in verse 40, that in these two commandments, all the law is summarized. Okay. You with me? Yeah, I'm with you. Why does Paul say that the man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law, Galatians 3, 28?
Which means we're justified apart from loving God and loving your neighbor.
Okay, so, okay, I see what you're saying. But would you say you don't, like, if I didn't love God with all my heart, mind, body, and soul, and I didn't love my neighbor as myself, would you still say that I have faith?
Okay, wait, don't jump ahead. You're the one saying you got to walk in the light to keep yourself right with God. I asked you if walking in the light was loving God and loving your neighbor. You said yes.
And then I'm showing you that that's a summarization of the law, according to Jesus' own words, and I quoted you where it is. Then I quote you Galatians, I mean, Romans 3, 28, which says, we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.
When Jesus says love God in Matthew 22, 37, He's quoting Deuteronomy 6, 5. When He says in Matthew 22, 39, love your neighbor, He's quoting Leviticus 19, 18.
Yeah, I would say, what about when He says a new command I give to you? Okay, love your neighbor as I have loved you.
That's not an Old Testament law. Listen, listen, we're talking about justification. Paul says we're justified by faith without the works of the law. And I agree. How can you be justified by faith apart from loving God and loving your neighbor?
Because Jesus' new commands are not works of the law. Would you say Jesus' new command is a work of the law?
Jesus said this is summation of the law. Yeah, I know. The greatest command without the works of the law. Loving one another is what Jesus says when He says love one another.
That's Leviticus 19, 18. Yeah, I know. I don't think you understand what I'm trying to say. Yes, I do understand. You don't understand. Oh, I'm not trying to insult you. I'm just, I genuinely don't. No, no, I know you're not.
So if you don't clarify, clarify one sec, one sec. So in John 13, 34, would you say Jesus' new commands are works of the law? The new commands He applies to us.
Let me ask you a question. I'll answer it. Did He say it under the old covenant? Yes. A new command I'm giving you under the old covenant system. Love one another.
Is that also... When would you say the new covenant started then? When the death of Christ. Romans 8. Then how did Jesus at the last supper say this is... Hold on. The blood of the new covenant.
Yeah, the blood of the new covenant. Because a new covenant is ratified in the death of Christ. You go to Hebrews 9, 15 through 16.
So were the apostles under the old or new covenant? Cairo, Cairo, Cairo, go.
How are we justified by God apart from the works of loving God and loving your neighbor? Since you said that's walking in the light. Faith. Yeah, I said faith.
And I'm not talking about Old Testament. I'm not talking about works of the law. I'm talking about Jesus's commands. That is walking the light, following Jesus. Get the charger, get the charger. I'm sorry, what?
I'm sorry. Yeah, I was saying... So basically, I agree with that. We're not justified by works of the law. But when Jesus says things like a new command I give to you, which I don't believe is old covenant.
No, no, no, dude. Dude, you keep ignoring what I'm telling you.
No, no, I'm trying to answer it, I'm trying to answer it. No, listen.
You said walking the light is loving God and loving your neighbor. You said this. I'm asking you a question in light of what you said. You said this, but yet Paul says we're justified apart from that very thing.
So how do you hold your position when Paul contradicts you?
Yeah, I would say this then, that walking in the light is following Jesus, obeying his commands.
And he says, the greatest command is to love God and love your neighbor. Should you love God and love your neighbor? Of course. Well, then how can you be justified when Jesus says, when Paul says, we maintain the amendment justified by faith apart from the works of the law.
And all the law is summarized in those two commandments.
Okay, starting to make more sense now. I get what you're saying.
Okay, look, Matthew, look, I'm going to read this. Matthew 22, he says, love God, love your neighbor. Verse 40, on these two commandments depend the whole law and prophets. Yeah, okay. All right. So, now Jesus has a new command I'm giving you.
I have no problem with that. It is to love one another, right? Okay. So we're to love one another. I get what you're saying, yeah. Okay. But you're the one saying in order to keep yourself saved, you have to walk in the light.
So your salvation depends on your ability to do what is good. Because walking in the light is good. And it is a good thing. But you're saying that your salvation depends on your ability.
No, my faith in Jesus, which will produce good works, which I'm trying to clarify. I'm trying to clarify. So it's not the works that said me for like the third time. It's not the works that saved me. It's the faith in Jesus.
But that faith produces good fruits, which are good works. And yeah, so I'm not saying Old Testament works of the law saved me. It's not what I'm saying. I'm saying if you want to say all commands, even Jesus's commands are works of the law.
Then that would say works of the law are a byproduct of true faith, of genuine faith.
Yes, that's what James 2 is talking about. Yeah, you have to understand. You have to understand something. You're justified by faith alone in Christ alone, not by faith and your ability to walk and your ability to maintain.
What would you say? This is what the cults teach this. Okay. Roman Catholicism teaches this. Well, a whole lot of Pentecostals do. I know, I know. Yes, and a whole lot of Pentecostals do. A lot of false teachers teach this stuff.
But what Jesus said is that he will lose none, right? Yep. But you're saying if you don't walk, you can be lost, right? If you don't, yeah, if you don't have faith. So then Jesus loses you, and that means he fails to do the will of the Father.
No, he doesn't, because genuine faith, you won't lose. Christ won't lose any if you have genuine faith. If you don't, then you were never his.
So what you did was just reinterpreted the scripture according to your theology. Jesus says, this is the will of my Father that everyone who he gives to me will come to me, and I will lose none and raise it up in the last day.
The will of the Father is that Jesus lose none and that Jesus resurrect them. Yeah. Because they're a group given by the Father to the Son. You're saying that you can undo that by your effort.
I'm saying your faith is kind of what separates you from being a true believer and a false convert or lukewarm.
Look, you don't understand. Okay, I get what you're doing, and what you're doing is you're saying, let me explain. You're saying if you have true faith, you're going to have true works, but it's not the works that save you, but the true faith is what saves you.
And as long as you're walking, you're manifesting the true faith, and as you're walking in the light, you're going to be okay. But if you stop having that faith, then you're not justified by faith anymore because you're not really walking in that light,.
Because that means that you don't really have that faith. Yeah, that's exactly what I'm saying.
Right, that's exactly what you're saying. I got you. So in other words, what you're saying is you keep your salvation by your goodness. No, by my faith. I just described it to you.
Is faith in God—. I don't like that word, goodness, because— I know you don't like it. I'm trying to say faith, which—and I wanted to ask you this too, so—. Wait a minute, wait, wait, wait, wait.
Is faith in God a good thing? Of course. Is believing in God a good thing? Depends. Is your faith in God, your faith in Christ, is it a good thing? Of course it's good. Then is it not your work? Is it your work or is it God's work that you believe?
I'd say it's my work. Jesus says this is the work of God that you believe on whom he has sent, John 6, 28, 29. So you're believing is the work of God. In fact, you're granted belief, Philippians 1, 29.
Every good and perfect gift comes from God, James 1, 17. God grants that you believe, Philippians 1, 29. He grants you repentance, 2 Timothy 2, 25. You believe because it's the work of God, John 6, 28, 29.
Okay. Are you going to take credit? Let me ask you. Are you going to take credit for your own believing?
This is not where I wanted to go into, just because— I know it's not. I know, I'm only saying that because I know this is like a Calvinist and Arminianist type of thing, and I didn't want to get into that.
Are you taking credit for your own believing and trusting in Christ?
I would say I have free will, so my choice to put my faith in Christ is—.
Are you taking credit for your own belief in Christ? Yeah. Okay. So you're arrogant. I just want to make sure you understood that when Jesus says, this is the work of God that you believe, you're taking credit for the work of God in you.
No, it is the work of God, but I had to make that choice. But he grants that you believe. I disagree, but I didn't want to come in here—.
I just quoted you, Philippians 1, 29, to you it has been granted to believe. Yeah. Not only to suffer, but also to believe. Sure, yeah.
So did God grant that you believe? Of course, and it's the work of God, but like I said, I'm not completely thorough on it. Like I would love—I would like to come back and talk about Calvinism and all that, but that's not something that was actually prepared to—.
Why is it when I quote scripture, you say it's Calvinistic? Well, because it is. Oh, very good. So scripture is Calvinistic. Good. So look, so here's the thing—.
It's a Calvinistic interpretation, but just like I don't have any— I didn't interpret it. No, no, I'm trying to say like, I don't have any verses prepared to kind of—.
Jiro, Jiro, I didn't interpret it. Jiro, Jiro, I didn't interpret it. I quoted it. You understood it, and you rejected it.
I rejected your premise, not scripture. I believe everything in the Bible.
My premise is that you believe because God granted you believe, Philippians 1. My premise is that your believing is the work of God, John 6, 28, 29. My premise is that you're born again, not of your own will, John 1, 13.
Of course. My premise is that whoever's appointed to eternal life are the ones who believe. Yep, yep. That's Acts 13, 48. So that's why I ask you, do you take credit for your own believing?
Well, it's the work of God, but it's my free choice to believe. Free choice as an unbeliever?
Say that again? I misheard. Is it your free choice as an unbeliever to choose Jesus?
Of course. The Bible says we suppress the truth in unrighteousness.
It's Romans 1, 18. But the Bible also says that the unbeliever cannot receive the things of God for they're foolish to Him, 1 Corinthians 2, 14.
They can't because they're not in the Spirit. They don't have the Holy Spirit.
It doesn't say that. It says they're spiritually discerned. It doesn't say they have to have the Holy Spirit. It says they cannot receive them for they are spiritually discerned.
Yeah, that's because they don't have the Holy Spirit, though.
It says in Philippians, I mean, it says in Romans 3, 10, 11, and 12 that the unbeliever is, he does not seek for God and he does no good. He's a hater of God. Yeah. So you're saying then that an unbeliever can do good things and come to Christ on his own, his own free will.
No, that's not what I'm trying to say. Would you think that unbeliever, do you think him hating God is of his own doing? Or did God decree that?
Okay, if you want to get into Calvinism, you're opening up a vat here. I mean, jump in and swim around for a while.
No, no, no, I'm not trying to do that. Okay, God decrees.
There's different kinds of decrees and things like that. But look, God is the one who grants that you believe. Okay, let me clarify something. Do you believe in free will? Yeah.
You do? Yeah. Okay, so it's not God who predetermines everything, predestined. Of course it is. Of course it is. Okay, so how could God decree everything, but I have free will? Does Jesus have free will?
Of course he does. Jesus says, I can do nothing of my own initiative, John 5, 19.
And Jesus willfully submitted to the Father.
Yes, he said he could do nothing of his own initiative. He only does what he sees the Father do. Did God the Father predestine everything that Jesus would do? I don't know. I would say scripture is scripture.
Jesus said he came to do the will of the Father. Yeah. So did Jesus do whatever the Father wanted him to do? Of course. Did Jesus have free will? Yes. So Jesus demonstrates exactly my position. That God the Father ordained everything that he would do because he came to do the will of the Father, not his own will.
Nevertheless, not my will, but your will be done, not to do his own will. And yet he had free will. So Jesus' free will operated under the sovereignty of God. Okay. So you have to understand something.
God is sovereign over your free will.
I would say God is so sovereign, though, to give me the free choice to choose to believe or not.
You will never choose to believe in him because you're an unbeliever, a slave of sin, a hater of God who can do no good. His righteous deeds are filthy rags. This is why the Bible says, you cannot come to me unless it's been granted to you from the Father, John 6, 65.
Here's the thing. If you have the ability as an unbeliever to come to faith in Christ of your own free will, then why is it necessary that God grant that you believe? Why is it necessary that God grant that you come to Christ?
Revelation, I would say this. God gives a revelation, but it's my choice to respond to that revelation or not.
Then why is it necessary, if it's your choice, why is it necessary for God to grant that you believe, if it's your choice to believe?
Because he has to give revelation, because then I don't have a choice. Okay.
Why is it necessary for God to grant that you believe, if you already have that ability as an unbeliever to believe? Because he has to grant the revelation. It doesn't say grant revelation, grant that you believe.
He has to grant a revelation so that I can make that choice. It doesn't say that. No, I know, but that's what I'm saying. I'm not trying to twist the Bible. I'm saying this is the way You are twisting the Bible.
No, no, I'm not, because I'm saying this is how God reveals himself. He gives revelation, and it's dependent upon if I react. It's dependent upon my choice, but God already knows what I'm going to do.
Are you ready? Yeah. I'm going to show you something, all right? Okay, you ready? Yeah, I'm ready. All right, you have a Bible in front of you?
I could just search it up. What's the first or chapter? Romans 5 .19. Yeah, I got it. Yeah, I got it. For just as through the disobedience of one man, the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of one man, the many will be made righteous.
I'm going to teach you something.
It says there, for as through one man's disobedience, the many were made sinners. Now, Greek is an interesting language. The aorist means it's past tense. The passive voice means it's an action received, that you're not doing the action, it occurs to you, okay?
Yep. What it says, they were made sinners, it's the aorist passive. What that means is, here we go, there's another verse over here. Okay, sorry, I was just prepping something else. What it means is that through Adam's sin, through Adam's sin, right?
Yep. It means everyone was made a sinner by his action. Yep. Okay? Yep. All right, Philippians, this is an aorist passive indicative. Were made sinners means the action occurred upon them from something else.
God did it, okay? Okay, now Hold on, you said God did it? Actually, I didn't mean that. They were made sinners because it's more complicated. No, we'll just leave, we'll just leave. They fell in Adam because of Adam's sin.
They were made sinners by the action of Adam, all right? Did Adam choose to do that action, though? Yes, he did. Now, Philippians 1 29, for to you it has been granted for Christ's sake, not only to believe in him, but also to suffer for his sake.
For it has been granted, is also the aorist passive indicative. If it means, in Romans 5 19, the aorist passive indicative, they were made sinners by an action of somebody else. They received it. To you it has been granted to believe.
It means you received the act of believing because of God's work. Yeah. That means you were granted by God's belief. If you can believe as an unbeliever freely of your own free will, why is it that God has to grant it to you?
Yeah, I'm going to answer this with a question. So would you say God, the work of God could be God giving a revelation? Like anybody who comes to Christ, it's usually something. It's an encounter. It's study the history of the Bible or Jesus's life.
Would you say that's God doing the work? Absolutely. I agree, but it's my choice whether I believe that or not.
Is it believing? If it's your choice, then why does God have to grant it to you?
Because God grants revelation.
It does not say he grants revelation. It says it's been granted that you believe. Why is God granting that you believe?
Because people only believe through revelation.
It doesn't say that. Why does God grant that you believe? No, I know.
But people will only believe things by revelation. That's how God grants it.
Okay, it doesn't say that's how God grants it. It says that you're granted to believe. God grants that you believe. Okay, you grant that you believe? Philippians 129.
Okay, not only to believe in him, but also... Okay, so what's your point? Because I can't hear you. Very. I couldn't hear what you said.
If it's up to your free will as a sinner to believe in Christ, why is it God has to grant it to you?
I guess I don't have an answer for that. I don't, so...
Okay, I'm glad you said that because that's...
I will study way more into these things. That's why I didn't really want to get into this. But I just wanted to ask about once saved, always saved because...
Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, look. You're talking about you're taking credit for walking. You're the one in your free will. You brought this up. You asked me about free will.
I tackled this. I'm showing you that you don't understand the scriptures because if according to your free will, it's up to you to believe, which is a good thing. It's a good thing that God has granted you.
Now you're taking credit for the work of God and keeping yourself saved by the work of God that you're taking credit for. No, I'm not taking credit for anything.
Yes, you are. No, I'm not because if Jesus did what he did, I couldn't do anything about it. God gets all the glory. He gets all the credit. I can't do anything apart from Christ. So the fact that Jesus died and allowed me to live this life is him taking all the credit because without that sacrifice, without that revelation, I couldn't.
Then why did you say you take credit for your own believing?
Because I do. It's God's work, but I don't... See, that's why I didn't like the wording you're using because I don't take credit for it. It was my choice. It wasn't a good work. It was all up to God, and it was God's choice.
Okay, so you're inconsistent, and the reason you're inconsistent, and I don't mean this in a mean way, but it's because... No, I don't take it that way. Okay, it's because you have an incomplete understanding of the work of God and your relationship to it.
What you do, I don't mean this in a derogatory sense because you're a natural person, what you're doing is inadvertently thinking in humanistic terminology. So let me exemplify something. I'm going to trick you by asking you a question that is on purpose.
I'm going to try and trick you up, set you up. Sure, sure. You ready? Yeah, I'm ready. Okay, I'm going to show you that you're humanistic in your thought to some degree. I'm not saying I'm perfect. Okay, is free will defined this way?
Free will is the ability to be able to see a good and bad option, right and wrong, be able to accomplish either one, and you can choose which one to do. Yes. Okay, that's where I just tricked you because that definition of free will does not belong to God.
God cannot choose to do anything evil. He can only choose to do that which is good. I use this illustration all the time to show people that they're humanistic in their theology because they measure truth based on themselves, not God.
It's our natural tendency. So what I did was I told you I was going to set you up. I told you I was going to trick you. I gave you the thing, and you fell right into it, and I'm explaining it. I'm not mad at you.
I'm not angry. I'm just telling you. I'm not taking anything the wrong way.
Okay, so the thing is that what you did, as so many Christians do, is you're humanistic in your philosophical approach. You automatically and naturally use yourself as a standard of righteousness. Yeah, good and bad.
You have to be able to do both and choose which one, but that means God doesn't fit that definition of free will. So free will, we have to use God as the standard, not man. Of course. So the standard of free will would then be something like you can only do what you're able to do or what your nature permits you to do, and of course, it's an unforced, a non-coerced choice consistent with your nature.
That way, God—okay, now we got it because God's holy. You can only choose holy things, right? Yeah. So if an unbeliever has a nature, and the Bible tells us the nature, that we know that a free will choice can only be made consistent with that nature, right?
But then I would say it wouldn't be free will then.
You just admitted what free will was according to what God's definition includes. God, that God can only do what he's able to do, what's consistent with his holiness.
Of course, I agree with that, but I don't think your definition of free will is correct.
Well, then you have to show me how it's not correct, and God has to be the standard. Yeah, I will. Yeah, I will.
Use God as the standard. Yeah, the definition of free will is the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate. So if God is making this my only two options, even though I choose, He already predestined that, and that's my fate, so it's not free will.
Okay, free will. Can God choose to sin?
No. Is he constrained by his holy nature? Yeah. Then free will is the ability to make unforced choices consistent with your nature, right?
No, I would say that's not free will then. I would say that isn't free will, and when you say we have free will, I don't trust what you're saying, because that's not the definition of free will. Does God have free will?
Yes. Define free will as it relates to God.
Okay, well, I don't know how God, His ways are way above ours, but I would say free will, basic definition, if it's designed by fate, if we're designed with only two options, then that's not free will, because He already decreed that before it happened.
Where'd you get the definition of free will? Search it up. Where'd you get it? Where did you get it? A secular dictionary. A secular dictionary. So, you did not use the Word of God and the theology of God as a standard for your definition.
Your humanism is showing up again.
Okay, but where's the definition of free will in the Bible? The Bible isn't a dictionary.
There is no definition of free will in the Bible.
So, I have to go to secular sources?
No, no, you go to God's Word. Is God the ultimate standard of truth? Of course. Is the Bible the ultimate standard of truth? Of course, of course, of course. Is there any authority higher than God? No.
So, then, should you not use a definition that is coming out of God's nature in essence? Well, there is no definition there. Shouldn't you use a definition that is based on God's character, not man's?
It's what we think, but it's not really. It's like the Bible doesn't strictly say this is how God defines free will, or this is... We're made in the image of God. We're made in the image of God.
Genesis 126, right? It's called the communicable attributes of God. God has a will, we have a will. God loves, we love. God hates, we hate. It's a communicable attribute. Now, we can relate to God. We have free will.
Our free will is a reflection of His free will, right? Where do you get that from, though? The communicable attributes of God are the attributes of God that can be communicated to us. He loves, we can love.
He hates, we can hate. He thinks, we can think. The incommunicable attributes are the attributes of God that cannot be communicated to us. God is infinite, we are not. God is all knowledgeable, we do not.
The incommunicable attributes represent or reflect His transcendence. The communicable attributes reflect His imminence, that is, how it relates to the created order. We are in the created order. We must always use God as a standard.
God says, be holy for I am holy. 1 Peter 1 .16, be perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect, Matthew 5 .48. God is the standard. Therefore, if you are going to define something as important as free will, you must turn to God and His Word for the standard.
Since God cannot lie, and yet He has free will, He is free, then we have to have a definition that is consistent with God's nature. If you do not, you are adopting humanism. When you adopt humanistic principles, you will end up in error.
You need to go with what God's revelation says. We know that God is holy. He can only act in a holy manner, right? Yep. So, does God have free will? Yeah. Then His free will requires holy action, right?
Yeah, because God can't lie. Right.
Titus 1 .2, He cannot lie. So, free will is now defined as that to be able to freely do what you want to do, but it has to be consistent with your nature. God's holy. Sure, sure. He can only do holy things.
So, an unbeliever has free will, and he can only do what's consistent with his nature. It's simple. The unbeliever is a hater of God who does no good, doesn't seek for God. Romans 3 .10, 11, and 12. He's by nature a child of wrath.
Ephesians 2 .3, deadness, trespasses, and sins. I mean, Ephesians 2 .1. His heart is desperately wicked and deceitful, cannot be trusted. Jeremiah 17 .9, His righteous deeds are filthy rags. Isaiah 64 .6, He's a slave of sin.
Romans 6 .14 -20, He cannot receive spiritual things. 1 Corinthians 2 .14. So, the nature of the unbeliever is such he's incapable. That's what the Bible teaches about the unbeliever. This is why the Bible says he has to be granted belief, granted it.
Philippians 1 .29, granted repentance. 2 Timothy 2 .25, appointed to eternal life. Acts 13 .48, we're born again. John 1 .13, caused to be born again. 1 Peter 1 .3, we have to be granted the act of coming to Christ.
That's by God. That's John 6 .65. Yeah, I agree with all that. Good. I'm glad you do. Now, do you take credit for your own believing? No, I already said that. Good. So, then God's the one who works the belief in you.
You're giving Him the glory, and yet you're going to say that you keep your salvation by the goodness you have and that you perform in your own action.
Well, we'd have to expand on that because you said we can only work according to our nature. So, it would assume if Jesus says we have to obey Him or you have to walk in the light, then we have a choice there to work according to the revelation God has given us.
Yeah, we're regenerate.
Of course. Now, we can choose to sin and not sin. An unbeliever can only choose to sin. Yeah. So, now that you're regenerate, you're trusting in Christ, and you say you're no longer taking credit for your believing, though you are the one who believes, that's another topic, you have to understand God grants this to you.
Now, what you're doing is taking credit for your ability to keep yourself right with God and keep yourself saved by your good work of walking in the light. Which you've already admitted that loving God and loving your neighbor is that, and yet Paul says we're justified without that.
So, how is it that you could be justified without walking by loving God and loving your neighbor, and yet you have to walk in the light to be justified? Okay, yeah.
So, that's a good point. So, what verse is it that Paul said that we're not justified by the works of the law? Because I don't know. Romans 3 28. Romans 3 28. So, the Greek word for faith is pistis, and it's used synonymously with living faithful to God.
So, faith isn't just a one-time thing, it's a faithful life to God also, because they're both used and one at the same. Yeah, I know, but this ties in with that, because I'm not saying that any of that justifies me.
Well, wait a minute.
Is walking in the light justifying you? No, my faith is. So, you walk in the light is just faith? Yeah, it is. That's all it is.
So, why does it say walk in the light? Why does it just say if you believe? Because in order to believe, like belief doesn't just mean, like the Bible says the devils believe in God. Yeah, James 2 19.
Yeah, it's that trust. It's that real trust in Jesus.
Yeah. So, then is walking in the light simply believing? No. Then what is walking in the light? You said it was, you said to walk in the light was to love God and love your neighbor. Is that just believing?
Well, I said I took that back. I would say walking in the light is obeying Jesus.
I said that like a while ago. Okay, so obeying Jesus, is that, that's how you keep yourself saved? By obeying Jesus?
Yeah, my faith in Jesus. But like I said, the Greek root pistis ties in synonymously with that.
You quoted John 13 34 early, the new commandment I give to love God and love your neighbor. So, you have to love one another in order to be saved, right? No, I never said that. I said, you just walk in the light to be saved, to keep yourself right.
And you said a new command, you got to obey that. No, no, no, no, I'm not saying that.
I'm saying faith will cause you to walk in the light. But for example, someone, someone who's on their deathbed isn't going to have that chance to really work out their salvation. So, that's one. Are they saved?
Yeah, of course they're saved. Well, it depends if the faith is genuine.
Of course, yeah. If God grants it to them, then it's a good and perfect gift, James 1 17. So, then you're teaching justification by faith alone in Christ alone, right? Yeah. Not by walking in the light in order to keep yourself right with him, right?
Where's the evidence of your faith come from though? How do you know if your faith is genuine?
James 2 14 through 26 talks about the evidence of faith manifested in our works. It's not our works that save us. It's not the faith and works that save us. That's Roman Catholicism, which will say that you have to do good works to prove your faith and that faith will save you.
And there's what's called congruent and condign merit. And what they teach is that God, he obligates himself to be able to reward you for the good work that you do. But he doesn't owe you salvation or a good kind reward.
But he obligates himself to do that. And since he obligates himself by your work, then you could be saved. And so what it is, is you still have to work in order to get God his promise where he obligates himself to get it.
The connection is still your work, which is why the Roman Catholic Church has in paragraph 2068. We maintain that a man is justified by faith. I mean, that you obtain salvation through faith, baptism, and the observance of the commandments.
Because even though they teach condign and congruent merit are based on God's character and his obligation, self-obligation to be able to save somebody or reward them for the good and grace that comes from him by the basis of their work.
They don't earn it, yet they also teach that you do. They're inconsistent. Because what they want to do is have their cake and eat it too. They want to be able to say that faith is something that justifies them, but you have to do good work in order to be saved.
You are teaching Roman Catholic theology. No, I'm not.
I already said I'm not. I said faith is the only thing that saves you, but that genuine faith will have you walking it out. But for example, someone who's about to die like the people on the cross. That's what the Catholics are saying.
That's what the Catholics say.
And that faith saves you. You have to have it. I'm telling you, I've been studying Catholicism for decades. You're teaching the same thing they do. This is how it really works. We're justified by faith alone in Christ alone, the faith that God grants to us.
I agree. By faith alone. And once we're in, we're guaranteed to stay in because Christ will not lose any. Period. Because he canceled the sin that at the cross, Colossians 2 .14, but we're justified when we believe.
He doesn't lose any. The reason you walk in the light is because of what Christ has done and his life in you. It's the walk of the light that demonstrates to ourselves and others that we are in him, but it's not walking that justifies us or keeps us in.
Okay. So what if I was a, what if I was a Christian? I said, well, obviously I am. But what if I said as a Christian, I believe, but I'm not walking in the light. I'm not obeying Jesus.
Will I still go to heaven? First John 2 .4, just read the next chapter over. If you say you know him and don't keep his commandments, the truth is not in you and you're a liar. True faith has true works, but it's not the faith in the works.
That's what I'm trying to say. It's not the faith in the works. It's not the faith in the works that save you. It's faith alone in Christ alone.
Yeah, I agree. That's, that's what I'm trying to articulate.
Then why are you saying you have to walk in the light in order to be saved?
No, I'm saying your genuine faith will have you walking in the light. And if you don't, by what the Bible says, you can't be walking in darkness and be saved. That's correct. Okay. So that's my point.
That's that, but I believe. Okay, so let me ask you. And you can't walk in the darkness. Yeah, go ahead.
So you, so you lust at this, you know, you're just a guy was picking something here. You lust after this one same woman you work with and you have to keep working. She has to keep working. You keep seeing her.
You keep falling into this. And then on the way home from the, on the freeway, you get PO'd at the people who don't know how to drive and you continually, you know, do these sinful things. So are you walking, are you walking in the light?
I would, I would. So let's say this, let's say you're, you're lusting after a woman and you go to work, but the next day, you know, that same woman is going to be there, correct? And Jesus said, cut your hand off if it causes you to sin.
So if I'm going there willfully knowing that she's going to be there and I'm not doing anything to prevent it, then I'm disobeying Jesus because I'm not. She's your boss. Maybe find a new job or just learn how to cover your eyes.
Okay. And drive a new freeway. A fruit of the spirit of self-control. You have to be able to not look at that woman lustfully. And that's a fruit. That's the obedience that.
Do you understand the point I'm trying to make? You have a standard. When the lawyer came to Jesus and said, what good thing must I do to be saved? He answered him according to what he required, what he asked.
Gee, the way of Jesus was to say, well, what does the law say, Mr. Lawyer? And the law said, and he said, you're right now go do more of this. He couldn't do it. I'm just simply saying your standard is you have to walk in the light to keep yourself saved.
This means you're keeping yourself saved by your effort. Well, isn't that what the text implies?
No. Okay. So we just said, the next chapter says, if you walk in darkness, you're a liar and you don't know. Yeah.
So then. Does it say that you, does it say that walking in the light is what keeps you saved? Or is it saying walking in light reveals what you are? Walking in darkness reveals what you are.
It's kind of a loaded question, but I would say to you, like, so you do, you're basically saying the same thing I am. You are, because. No.
If you walk in the light as he himself walking in the light. Now who's the he himself? Jesus. So you have to walk in the light, the same level and standard that he did, right?
Well, yeah, I have to obey his commands.
Okay. Are you walking in the light the same level as Jesus did? Are you doing that? Well, of course not. Nobody can.
Well, then you're not walking in the light, are you? No, I am because obeying Jesus is something that's possible.
And that's what I'm doing. If you walk in the light as he himself is in the light.
Yeah. And he's in the light because he obeyed the father perfectly. And we have to obey Jesus now. Now what's the light? Holiness. Where's the say holiness? Faithfulness. Faithfulness. Where's the say that?
Well, you're not living faithfully to Jesus if you're disobeying him. I would say that's correct.
Okay. Yeah. So that's what I'm saying. Okay. You're saying that and you have to walk in holiness now, right? Yeah. Okay. Are you walking in holiness? Yes. So you're walking in holiness the same level as Jesus, right?
No, no. I never said that.
And I literally never said that. I said obeying Jesus is walking in the light. And I get that you're saying. No, no, no. Holiness. Holiness.
What's the standard of holiness you have? Is it God or yourself? It's God. Of course, it's God. Are you walking in the level of holiness that God requires? According to Jesus. Yeah. So you're walking according to the same level of holiness that Jesus did.
No, we're not on the same. Like, I'm not perfect. Jesus was. Of course, I'm not. You're not walking in holiness as Jesus is a standard. No, Jesus gave us a standard. And those were his commands. The standard is God.
Jesus is God. Standard is God. Yes. God says be holy for I am holy. That's the standard. Are you walking in holiness at the standard that God requires? Of course. That was revealed through Jesus. Is Jesus the perfect example of what it means to walk in holiness?
100%. So are you walking in holiness according to the standard that Jesus set? By obeying his commands, yes. So you are walking in perfect obedience to the holiness of Christ by obeying his commands. No, no, no.
You're not. Oh, no. So Jesus says love your neighbor or love each other, one another. Are you doing that?
Yeah, of course. But sometimes I slip up and that's the wall.
So is the standard of God perfection or imperfection? It's perfection. So are you going to continue in your humanistic philosophy to insert it in the Word of God? Or are you going to repent? Because what you're doing is you're saying that the standard of God is holiness unless it applies to you.
Unless it applies to you. Because if you try, that's okay. But if you fail, that's okay because you must obey the command, but you really can't because that's the standard of Jesus, but you really can't do it.
But yet, you're also walking in holiness.
No, I'm trying to say like Jesus takes the burden of perfection away from us, but he also didn't lead us into lawlessness. You're not hearing. You're not listening. You're not listening. You're not listening.
You don't listen. No, I'm trying to, but you talk pretty fast.
The standard of holiness is God himself, right? Yes, revealed through Jesus. Is Jesus the perfect example of holiness? Yes. Is Jesus a standard of holiness? Yes. Is your holiness standard the same as Jesus?
Not at all. So then you have a different standard of holiness than Jesus does?
Wait, are you talking about like how I view holiness or like my holiness? What's your standard of holiness?
Jesus, I just said this. Okay. So then you're obligated to follow the standard of Jesus according to his level, not yours. Of course, of course. So the level is the same level as Jesus, you're to be holy, and the same level of Jesus is holy, right?
Yeah, and I would say that comes with like, you're not going to instantly, as you become a Christian, you're not going to.
Are you keeping the level of holiness at the same level as Jesus did?
No, but I'm keeping his commands, and that's the standard.
If you're keeping his command, then you're keeping the level of holiness. Yeah. So then you are keeping at the same level as Jesus. No. Then you're not keeping the level of Jesus, and you're not keeping the holiness.
That's a standard of his character.
Well, we said walking in the light is holiness, and that verse, 1 John 1 says, the blood of Jesus covers you from sin. Okay.
So I'm holy because of Jesus. Jerome, what's happening here is called cognitive dissonance. You can't see your own contradiction, and what you kind of do, and then it's evidence because you've stopped the conversation flow, the logical necessity, and you jump left and right.
This means that you are holding on to irrationality. I'm trying to expose to you your own inconsistency. You're not using God as a standard. You're using your own ability as a standard. This is what the cults and false religions do.
I'm not calling you a cultist. I'm not calling you mean. Just saying you don't understand this, but this is what the false religions do. We all make mistakes, but I'm saying you don't realize your humanistic philosophy is embedded in your own heart and mind, and you're shoving it upon the Scriptures.
If you're going to use 1 John 1 .7 as the standard of holiness, walk in the light as he himself is in the light, the standard is Jesus, you're going to fail.
Well, that first implies that we still sin, and that's the point I'm trying to make, is 1 John 1 .7 says it covers us from the sin that we are going to commit.
The blood of Jesus cleanses us from sin, right?
From all sin, and that's implying, like, if we're walking in the light— All sin. Can I ask you? Yeah, go ahead.
All sin, does that mean past, present, future?
Of course, of course, as long as I'm walking in the light, though.
So the cleanliness of God's blood upon you depends on you walking in the light. That's what that verse says. That's not what it says, and you are incredibly arrogant.
How does it not say that? It says, if we walk in the light, that's conditional.
You're saying that the blood of Christ, you're saying the blood of Christ, becomes efficacious based on your performance.
Yeah, yeah, that is what I'm saying.
Yeah, you are an arrogant fool at this point. Sure. I'm not name-calling, I'm informing. You're arrogant because you think you can perform holiness on the same level as Jesus, and by definition, that's foolishness.
That's not what I said. You're saying—. I don't understand what you're saying. You already admitted. You said—.
That's not what I said at all, and that's not what I'm trying to say.
You said, I asked you, is the blood of Christ, does it become efficacious, dependent on your ability, on your work?
You said yes. Yeah, I said yes, of course.
The efficaciousness of the blood atonement of Christ is not dependent on your ability. It's dependent on Christ, His ability, what He did. He canceled the sin that at the cross, not you. It's not dependent on your ability.
It's dependent upon Him.
Yeah, I agree. No, I agree, but what I'm trying to say is that—. You can't agree.
No, I do. As Christians— No, you can't, and hold them both positions. You cannot say— I do. No, listen, you cannot say that the blood of Christ, you cannot say the blood of Christ becomes efficacious by your performance, and also say that it's independent of your performance.
That's a contradiction. Okay, sure. So can we both agree that when you're walking in the darkness, the blood of Jesus isn't covering you from sin? Okay, you're not hearing me.
You're avoiding. You're doing the same thing that the cults do.
No, I'm not avoiding. I'm actually, I'm trying to get it down here. That's why I'm asking you this question. So would you say, of course, if you're not walking in light, you're walking in darkness, and if you're walking in darkness, you don't have the blood of Jesus covering you from sin?
No, that's not true. You wouldn't say that?
You understand something. You understand something. You understand something. If I'm not perfect tonight, it doesn't invalidate the efficacious atonement of Christ. I agree. I agree. That's what I've been saying.
His efficacious atonement is not dependent on my performance. Those who walk in darkness are not saved. They're not. I agree. I agree. I agree. That's what it's, if we walk in darkness, we have fellowship.
We walk, excuse me, if we walk in light, like we have fellowship with him. We're walking in that. Christians can walk in light and have fellowship, and they can walk in darkness to a certain degree and break that fellowship.
It doesn't mean that God abandons us, and it does not invalidate the atoning sacrifice of Christ.
So you can walk in darkness and still be saved? Yes.
I do it all the time. Yeah. Five, six, seven seconds, a minute or two minutes. I might have a dream that I shouldn't be dreaming. I might see a woman in lust after it. I shouldn't lust. I might be angry at my brother or somebody on the road because they can't drive right, which is a problem I'm dealing with, because they don't know how to drive right.
It's like, what are you doing? And I shouldn't be upset with them. Am I walking in light at that point? No, I'm not. Am I suddenly lost my salvation?
Of course not. Hold on, hold on. Let me clarify one thing quick. 1 John 1, 7 isn't holding the standard of light to being perfect, because it already implies that we still will sin, because it says the blood of Jesus will cover you from all sin.
So it's talking about if I'm walking in the light, I would say that, yeah, but if I'm walking in darkness, that isn't, that isn't repentant sin. That's not, that's not living faithful to God. Can you look at the next verse?
You're going to have to give me a sec. If we say we have no sin, we're deceiving ourselves that the truth is not in us. We, is John the apostle including himself in that? Yeah, of course, of course. So if he were to say he has no sin, that would mean the truth is not in him?
Yeah, he's a liar. Okay, so he says if we confess our sins, he's faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness, right?
Yeah, but would a person walking in darkness do that, though?
They won't. So let me ask you, let me ask you, and they won't because they're not saved. Let me ask you, if we confess... Hold on, hold on.
One sec. Didn't you just say you can walk in darkness and be saved?
Yes, in a sense... That's a huge contradiction. In the sense of momentary lapses and things like that.
No, because you're not understanding 1 John 1, 7 isn't talking... It already implies you're going to have mess-ups. Walking in darkness is a completely different thing. You're saying the same thing I'm saying.
You call it mess-ups, right? Yeah, sure, sin, of course.
Can you look at verse 9? Yeah, one sec. If we confess our sins, he's faithful and just to forgive us our sins. Do you have to confess your sins in order to be forgiven? Um, no. But why does it say if we confess them, he'll forgive?
Because you ought to confess your sins. But for example, if I sin, like that verse said, if I'm already walking in the light, then the blood of Jesus is already on me and I'm forgiven already. But you just said Christians can walk in darkness.
Don't take it out of context. No, I'm not. But you said Christians can walk in a certain amount of darkness, correct?
Yeah, 5 seconds, 10 seconds, get upset with this or that. We're not talking about habitual walking away from the truth. We're talking about momentary lapses and things like that. That's the point, Matt.
That's the point. He's equivocating on practicing sin, okay? The way it's given in the Greek is it's an ongoing participial construction, a lifestyle, a manner of conducting your life. If that's your manner of life, it indicates there's no regeneration.
And the cleansing from all sin that Jesus does for us is also given in a participial construction. It's an ongoing work that He's involved in right now, every day for the believer, every minute for the believer in my case.
So don't equivocate on this word, practice sin, live in sin, walk in darkness. If you're doing that habitually as a lifestyle, it indicates you're not regenerate. Use the words the way this scripture uses them in their context, in the meaning the author was trying to convey to the audience, a plain meaning, and it's airtight, and you've lost this one, Jiro.
I'm not here to win or lose. I'm here to just ask these scriptures because I've heard these.
You have failed to support your point. Actually, we're going to do a slight correction. It's not participial there in 1 John 1, 7. But in the English, excuse me, in the Greek present tense, there's a slight hint of it.
That's how Greek works a little bit in that present area. That's why the previous verse, because Chuck's on the right path. He says, those who practice it, and Chuck is right. That's the issue. A participial construction is the closest thing we have in English to describe how they're doing it in the Greek.
The Greek's a lot more precise. Right. Right. And so the thing is, I'm trying to get this guy to see justification by faith alone, in Christ alone, and it's maintained because of God's faithfulness to us, not our faithfulness to him.
That's the key. Jiro, Jiro, whatever your name is, if you pronounce it, your faithfulness to God is not what makes the blood of Christ efficacious. That is independent. It's independent of your ability.
That's why you can't say walking in the light is what keeps you saved, because you have to have a continued action of cleansing of sin in order to keep yourself saved. And that can't work that way. Make sense?
Yeah. Okay.
You've got to think about this. No, I really am. And that's why I'm up here. But I just don't, I just, it's just pretty confusing. Because... Let me help you out. Let me give you something and then you can work with it.
I just have a few questions that I could ask just quickly. Okay, go ahead. So walking in darkness, in the next chapter, 1 John 1 .8, I believe it is, walking in darkness, would you say those people are saved or aren't saved?
Not 1 John 1 .8.
1 John 1 .8 or 1 .9? If we say we have those saved, we're deceiving ourselves.
Oh no, 1 John 1 .7, 1 John 1 .7.
We walk in the light and see themselves in the light. We have fellowship with one another and the blood of Christ cleanses us from all sin. Yeah, hold on. You mean verse 6. If we say we have fellowship with him and yet walk in darkness, we lie, do not practice the truth.
Yeah. Yeah. If you say you're a Christian and you're not walking as one, you're just, you're a liar. That's all.
Yeah, I agree. But like my point is that a Christian does have that choice to stop. And this is where really the big difference is. I believe that a Christian does have the choice to stop walking in the light and they can walk in the darkness.
Because in the beginning of that verse, it says, if we walk in the light.
Then you can lose your salvation, right? Yeah. Okay. And so if you lose your salvation, then Jesus lost you, right? No, you lost Jesus. The will of the Father is that Jesus lose none. Did Jesus lose any?
No, you lost Jesus. Jesus didn't lose you because he didn't stay faithful. You lost Jesus?
Okay. Do you realize how you just perverted the Word of God to make it fit what you want?
I didn't, but you can explain how.
Sure. Jesus says, this is the will of the Father who sent me, that all he has given me, I lose none. The will of the Father is that Jesus lose none, right? Yeah. And that he raise him up. And that he raise him up, right?
Yeah. Verse 40, this is the will of my Father who sent me that everyone who believes in me will have everlasting life and I will raise him up. The will of the Father is that whoever believes will have everlasting life and be resurrected by Jesus.
Of course. You're saying that everyone who believes is not necessarily true and Jesus won't resurrect them and they won't have eternal life because they could lose you.
I'm saying true belief. Like an atheist believes it could believe in Jesus, but true belief will come with faith and that true faith will come with works.
Jesus says the will of the Father is that Jesus lose none and the will of the Father is that all who believe in him will have everlasting life and that he be raised. In what sense though? God grants that we believe.
So it's the belief God grants. It's sufficient for us to believe and be saved. God's will is that of those, Jesus not lose any. You're the one who says Jesus will lose them. And then what you try and do is say, no, you lose yourself.
No, I say you lose Jesus because you do.
Okay, you lose Jesus. And why does God say he'll never leave us or forsake us for the believers? In Hebrews 13, five or 12, five. Jesus says, my sheep hear my voice. I give eternal life to them and they shall never perish.
If you go a few verses back, it says, my sheep hear my voice and they follow me.
Yes, and they follow me.
So you have to follow Jesus to be a sheep, correct?
Oh, that's how you become a sheep by obedience. No, that's how you are a sheep. You are a sheep by what you do, right? Well, let's get the verse. No, you just said it. You're a sheep by what you do, right?
So your works are what changes you. My sheep listen to my voice.
I know them and they follow me. So you're not his sheep if you don't follow him. Do you agree?
No, it doesn't say you're not a sheep if you don't follow him. That's not what it says, but you're correct. If you don't follow him, you're not a sheep, right? Yes. So is following him how you become a sheep?
No, if you want to be literal, verse 27. My sheep listen to my voice and then they follow me. And they follow me, yeah.
Yeah, I know that means they're saved. They follow because they're sheep not to become sheep. Yeah, okay. That's why they follow because of what they already are. Yeah, I agree. So it's not that they have to obey in order to be sheep.
They have to walk in the light in order to keep themselves right with God.
But what is the evidence that they are sheep? No.
That they follow? Yeah, true believers follow. True believers work, do good works. Okay. But it's not the following or the good works that keeps them saved.
So can you not follow Jesus and still be saved?
No, if you're not following Jesus, you're not saved.
Okay, okay. I understand what you're saying now. That could have been cleared up a lot longer ago.
I've tried so many different ways to get this through to you.
Well, I was pretty much saying the same thing. I really was. No, we're not. No, we're not.
No, we're not. No, you teach you can lose your salvation. I don't teach. I think you can. What happened on the phone thing here with the... Okay, Charlie, you got to put... There we go. You lost one of your feeds.
Yeah, my phone's going to go out. I should... It should still stay because it's almost out of charge, but that's okay. So look, you're the one teaching. This is important. Why I'm taking so long. Who's that?
How did it do that? Wow, that's weird. Okay, that's weird. So you're saying... Test? Yeah, I can hear you. Okay, you're saying that you keep your salvation by what you do. Yeah. Okay. All right. So I hope you are good enough to keep yourself right with the infinitely holy God.
As long as I'm walking and obeying Jesus.
Good, as long as you're obeying Jesus, obeying what he says, as long as the standard of your salvation is your ability to be able to walk with him.
It's the standard of Jesus, not me. No, no, no. That's not the standard of Jesus. Yes, it is. His standard is perfection. He gave us commands to abide by and... Are you being... His standard is perfection.
Are you being perfect in it? No. Then you're not following Jesus perfectly, are you? I never said... No, I never said that. I never said that. You said you had to follow Jesus, the perfect standard, right?
You have to follow Jesus and keep his commandments. But it says... Are you keeping his commandments? Yeah, I was gonna say, it says, if you sin, the blood of Jesus covers you from it because you are walking in the light.
Are you keeping his commandments? Yes. On the standard of Jesus? I'm keeping the commandments that are written in the Bible that were spoken by Jesus to his sheep. So how good are you at it? So you're keeping them, right?
Are you keeping them on the standard of Jesus?
Pardon? Are you keeping the standard that Jesus has according to the will of Jesus, the standard who is Jesus? Are you keeping the commands on that level? I'm keeping Jesus's commands.
But like I said, we all stumble. And that's why walking in the light covers the stumble.
Does keeping the commands mean keeping it all the time or part of the time?
I think we lost him. Oh, no, he's there. No, no, no, my brother came in quick. Anyways, what were you saying?
Is keeping the standard of God your standard or God's standard? It's Jesus's standard. So the standard is perfection, right? It's his commands. I think Jesus's commands are perfect. It's the standard is perfection, right?
Yeah, because Jesus's commands are perfect.
Are you keeping the standard of Jesus perfectly? No. Then by your own words, you're condemned.
No, I'm not. Because walking in the light already implies you're going, you're not going to fall perfect.
And that's what I've been saying. No, it doesn't say walking, it does not say that there.
1 John 1 says, if you do, the blood of Jesus covers you from all sin. Okay. So it's not perfection he's talking about.
We're going in circles. This is the point when I say you're not, you're just being incoherent. You need to have the true gospel presented to you. The true gospel. I'm going to tell you what it is. The true gospel is that Jesus Christ is God in flesh who perfected, who perfectly kept the law.
He never sinned. 1 Peter 2 .22. He did everything necessary, not you, him. And that you are justified before God by your faith in Christ alone. That faith, which God grants to you, Philippians 1 .29, is what justifies you.
Yeah, I agree.
Except for one part. God does not remove the faith from you that he grants to you. And the standard of perfection is God himself, which you cannot keep, but Jesus did. So your faith has to be all in Christ or not all in Christ.
Your faith is not all in Christ. Yes, it is. No, it's not. Because you have faith in your ability to keep the commandments in order to be saved. Therefore, it's not all in Christ. Absolutely not. Yes, it is, as you said.
No, it isn't. People are in the room listening. Is this what he's saying, folks? That's what he's saying. That's not what I'm saying. The Greek word faith also implies to be faithful to Christ.
One person says you sound like a Mormon. You lagged out, I couldn't hear you. You sound like a cultist, a Mormon, a Roman Catholic. Look, we're justified by faith alone in Christ alone. You're so close to being one.
He doesn't realize.
Tell you what, you do this. I can use the restroom too. Go ahead. Tackle him a little bit. Hey, Hero, I've got a question for you. Sure, go ahead. In the book of Galatians, they were all saved by faith through grace, but then they added the Judaizers wanted to add circumcision.
And Paul commented on them that they're adding a work to their walk with Christ. And he called that, he told them that if you add any kind of a ceremony or any kind of human physical performance, the cross itself becomes a stumbling block.
Can you give me the verse for that, please? Look in the book of Galatians chapter three.
Yeah, I just want the verse where it says anything you do. Just that one verse, please. Hold on just a sec.
Well, he didn't use the word anything. They were, what I said was they were adding... Works of the law. They were adding a work of any kind. Okay. Hold on just a second. He's already talking to Christians.
So now he's talking about the Christian life and the fact that they came along and said there was something else you have to do.
Yeah, which was circumcision, which is a work of the law.
And it says we're not justified. It doesn't matter if it's a work of the law. It's still something they did.
All right. And he equated that. But the point isn't that they're doing stuff. It's that they're adding circumcision, which is the work of the law to justify them. And that is not what I'm saying at all.
I understand that. That's if you hear my argument, you'll understand it. Okay. Oh yeah, continue. Let me see here. We're talking Galatians. Maybe I got it. I thought it was, was it chapter five? I'm sorry.
My mistake is chapter five. Right. Yeah. Okay. Go ahead. So anything that they did would take away from the fact that they were Christians, right? Well, what were they doing? That's what we got to clarify.
The Judaizers were trying to get them to become circumcised. Yeah. Right. Which is work. Okay. Well, irregardless of whether it's the law, it's still an act of man, right? Yeah. Yeah. Of course. Okay.
So look at Galatians 5, 6, for in Christ, neither circumcision nor circumcision means anything, but faith working through love. Yeah. Okay. So He continues on and when He gets to 11, He says, if I preach circumcision, which is any kind of a work done by man, why am I still being persecuted?
Why are they still criticizing Him? Because if you add anything to it, the stumbling block of the cross has been abolished. See, the principle here is that anytime you do anything beyond the cross of Christ, you are adding a stumbling block and that's what you've done to yourself.
No, you can't look at the cross and say it's completely sufficient.
It does everything in all capacities, in all contexts, because you can't look at it and say, there's zero I can do to either save myself or to keep myself saved. You have to say, you have to follow commandments.
You have to do the same thing that Judaizers are doing, which is adding a commandment of some kind.
Let me just clarify quickly. I was saying faith is the only thing that saves you. I've already said that. I'm not adding anything to that.
My words cannot save me. No, no, no, no, no. These people were already saved. They're putting something else in there. And Paul is saying that if you put just this one example, circumcision in there, which is an act of man, a work of man, it doesn't matter whether it's a work of the law.
It's still a work. If you add that, the cross is no longer a stumbling block because man is adding his own works. And this is the problem with what you're doing. You don't realize that you're looking at the cross.
And even for unbelievers, the cross is a stumbling block. They can't get over how it is the cross is completely self-sufficient. In all capacities, past, present and future. They think, and Christians, unfortunately, like you, think that there still has to be something you have to do to deal with your present and your future.
And what you're doing is the cross has now become your stumbling block. The cross is self-sufficient. It's completed. It's done. It doesn't matter what works you do. They don't lose your salvation and they don't keep it and they don't add anything to it.
Somehow or another, you think that you can throw the idea of works in there and it fits in one of those categories, but not for your salvation, for other purposes. And that's what Paul is addressing with the Judaizers who are saying, there's something you have to do to show or to add to or to do something that the cross is not sufficient.
Yeah. Do you understand that principle? I get what you're saying, but I just...
Okay, that's what I wanted to say. Thanks for bearing with me. I do. I just believe when you're living faithfully to Christ, you'll obey Him.
It doesn't matter what you... Listen, it doesn't matter what you think you believe. What matters is understand what Paul is doing to somebody that wanted to add any kind of works or any kind of purpose.
He said the cross became a stumbling block.
Because they're adding works of the law though.
It doesn't matter if it's a work of the law. Who's doing the work? Is the law doing the work or is man doing it?
No, you're doing the work, but it's the work you're doing. That's right. They were adding works onto the law to justify it.
Is circumcision a work of man? Yeah. Then it isn't a work. And Paul is saying that basically, and he's just using this one example because that was the problem, that that work makes the cross a stumbling block to them because they can't accept it.
They've got to look at what Christ did and what man is going to do. Not just the cross itself. That's why it becomes a stumbling block because people can't understand how simple it is. It's already done.
It's completed. There's nothing we can add to it. I agree. There's nothing we can add to take it away or maintain it. Once we're in.
Only our faith, only our faith. But having faith also means to live faithfully.
I know, but the thing is that faith itself is a transcendent idea. The faith itself by itself is not a work. What you're doing is you're adding a work and saying, well, the fact that I'm adding a work because I have faith, that's what makes the difference.
And it doesn't make the difference in either your salvation, getting it or maintaining it. That's right. It just proves before man that you have faith. That's all. Okay. Yeah. I agree with you, son.
All right. Now, Jake's going to... Thank you. Is it Hero or Jiro? It's Jiro. Yeah. Jiro. Nice to meet you. I'm Jake. Nice to meet you. Can I take you to Philippians 3 really quick? Yeah, go ahead. So in Philippians 3, Paul is talking a bit about his past.
He says, though I myself have reason for confidence in the flesh, also, if anyone else thinks he has reason for confidence in the flesh, I have more. Circumcised on the eighth day of the people of Israel, the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews is to the law, a Pharisee is to zeal, a persecutor of the church, as to righteousness under the law, blameless.
But whatever gain I had, I counted as loss for the sake of Christ. Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake, I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish in order that I may gain Christ.
And here's kind of the key verse is right here in verse 9, where he says, and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God.
Yes, I agree. Not through the law. Says the ex-mormon. So when you're talking about maintaining salvation by anything that you could do, walking in the light, anything you could do that would make you maintain that.
You're looking to your own righteousness, righteousness which comes from the law, not the righteousness which comes through faith. The righteousness which comes through faith is imputed. It's from Jesus Christ.
And it's his righteousness that we're credited as. So could I ask you something?
Yeah. So is obeying Jesus a work of the law?
Is obeying Jesus a work of the law? Which law?
You said the verse you just read talked about the law and the law is referring to the 13 Mosaic laws. I'm asking you, is obeying Jesus a work of the law? Which law? No, I'm not talking about Old Testament.
I'm saying like, is obeying Jesus currently? Is that a work of the law?
What do you mean by obeying Jesus? The standard in Matthew 5, 48 would be, Jesus says be perfect, therefore is your father in heaven, which is perfect. I didn't quote that quite right.
It's all good. But what I'm trying to say is, for example, when Jesus gives a new command, that's not a command that's found in the law. So is obeying that new command a work of the law? And you just said it was, but I'm not saying it is.
Where did I say that it was? I was asking you earlier, he was talking to you about that.
Yeah, I know. But my point is that obeying Jesus is not a work of the law because we're not under the law, we're under grace. Therefore, when I obey Jesus, not to be saved, but because I am saved, it's not a work of the law.
It's being faithful because the Greek word faithful, pistis, also is used synonymously with faithful. So faith isn't a one-time thing. Faith is current. Ongoing with continuous effects.
Yeah, ongoing. Faith is ongoing. Okay, so we are continuously trusting in Christ. And because we say we're part of the vine, we bear fruit, correct?
Yeah, we have to bear fruit, but you can't do anything apart from Jesus.
But obeying Jesus... Oh yeah, I'd agree with that because we're justified by our faith and we do good works. And that is evidence to men of our faith. But before God, those works don't do anything. And if we have true faith...
I disagree because Revelation 3... I'm sorry, what? Revelation 3, 5 says to believers, if they don't overcome, their names will be blotted out of the book of life. That implies... They've already talked about you.
You're bringing this back up, but you're saying that you agree the righteousness from God that depends on faith. So why are you looking to righteousness from your works?
I'm not looking for righteousness dependent upon my works. It's dependent upon Jesus. It's dependent upon my faith. But I don't think you guys understand what I'm saying about faith. I don't think I am.
Can you please explain? So for example, those Christians Jesus talks to in Revelation 3, 5. If those Christians didn't overcome, like Jesus said, Jesus literally said their names will be blotted out of the book of life.
Blotted out.
Okay. So I didn't really get articulated. The one who conquers will be clothed thus in white garments and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my father and before his angels.
Where does it say that he will blot their name out of the book of life? Or even could. He says, I will never. He says, I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my father and before his angels.
Yeah. So let's give me a second. I got to get the verse out. Yeah, no worries. So when Jesus says he who overcomes shall thus be clothed in white garments and I will not erase his name from the book of life.
It's, it's not, it's, it's not a huge assumption to say that if you don't overcome, he will blot your name out of the book of life. And I don't see how that's a huge jump.
So conquer the one who conquers. So what are you conquering?
Well, sin that can be sin.
He's going. Romans. 8.
Jesus is talking about overcoming sin in revelation three. Because I believe this was the church that was loveless, but I could be wrong. Sure.
We can look at that. So Jesus was talking about it earlier and Matt is way more familiar with that. But yeah, to the church in Sardis and to the angel of the church in Sardis, write the words of him who has the seven spirits of God and the seven stars.
I know your works. You have the reputation of being alive, but you are dead. Wake up and strengthen what remains and is about to die. For I have not found your works complete in the sight of my God. Remember then what you received and heard.
Keep it and repent. If you will not wake up, I will come like a thief. And you will not know at what hour I will come against you. Yet you have still a few names in Sardis, people who have not soiled their garments and they will walk with me in white for they're worthy.
The one who conquers will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my father and before his angels. So who is it that's clothed in the white garments?
It's those who overcome, like Jesus said. And he said, if you don't overcome, he's going to blot your name out. Overcome by faith.
People who have not soiled their garments. This is written to Christians though. This is written to Christians.
This is my wife, Rachel, by the way. Hi. Nice to meet you. Romans 8, 37. But in all these things, we overwhelmingly conquer through him who loved us. So how do we conquer? Through Christ.
Or overcome. Or how do we overcome? You have to abide in Christ because the Bible says you can't do nothing.
If it's through him, then there's no way that we can't conquer. If we're in him, we conquer.
Period. So we're in him. But it's your choice to abide in him or not. And that's where the huge disagreement goes. I don't want to keep going in circles. I'm glad I could come on here and talk. But I just don't believe.
I don't believe. I'm pretty certain the Bible teaches you can lose your salvation. And that's just all throughout the book of Revelations.
And I think it's... How about if you synthesize it down to this pinpoint item? What kind of faith does the Christian have? It is the kind that's going to overcome because Jesus gives it to us according to Hebrew 12.
And he's the author and finisher. If there's something unfinished about it that we have to perform in any way, shape or form, then he is neither the author or finisher of the kind of faith that a Christian's counting on.
No, this is the kind he gives the Christian. And to add anything to it, any condition put upon it is to poison that message. It's to corrupt the gospel. Yep, I agree.
And the faith that Paul had, as we were talking about in Philippians 3 before you brought up Revelation, was that he would be found in him not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ.
The righteousness from God that depends on faith. So where are you getting the righteousness to maintain your salvation from? Is that based on you do the righteousness from God through faith? No, it's through Christ.
Yeah. But that faith in Christ... So are you the perfecter of your faith? Pardon? Are you the perfecter of your faith? Of course not.
Okay. Okay. Does Jesus give something other than perfect faith? So it's just easier because they... Um, no. But there you go. There you go. If you've got the kind of faith he grants you, you're in, buddy.
That's where the huge disagreement comes because I don't believe in Calvinism. I just don't. That's not Calvinism. That was Hebrews 12. No, no, no. Reform theology and the fact that God grants you it.
That's a terrible chestnut. When someone quotes scripture and you accuse it of being Calvinism, shows that you've got a chip on your shoulder. That's...
No, I actually don't.
I don't. Well, you've done it several times tonight. So, you know, straight forward scripture, you accuse of being Calvinism and that's a dead giveaway right there, my friend. Well, no, because I'm...
Are you a Calvinist? No, I'm not. So do you believe we have a free choice? That God gives us any free choice?
It's compatible with our will. Choice is compatible with your will. Jesus, God and me have a compatible will, compatible with our nature. Unfortunately... And I disagree there. You disagree there? I can't choose to do something that's beyond my nature.
My choices are always compatible with my nature. I can't flap my arms and fly. But if I was by nature a bird, you couldn't stop me. Okay. But our choices are compatible with our nature. For you to ignore that is fally.
No, I'm not trying to ignore that. I'm just, I don't see that lining up. No, I'm actually, I'm not trying to. I'm trying to be humble right now. I don't see when I see verses like that in Revelation. I just don't see like that's a choice.
I think it's very clear it's a choice for us to make.
I think you need to read the definition of eisegesis. Reading something into the text that isn't there, my friend. You can only get from what it says. Your implications and your equivocations all night long have been such that you want to have an elastic view that is so stretchable that it goes beyond the snapping point.
And you're accepting that and feeling satisfied with it. And I don't know how you can feel satisfied with that kind of rubber ruler. I don't feel satisfied. That's why I'm here. That's genuinely why I'm here.
But yeah. Okay, well get rid of the rubber ruler. And when you see a scripture that's precisely saying what it's saying, don't accuse it of being Calvinist.
No, I didn't mean to. But it was theology behind that that I don't agree with. Like we don't see in the Bible that God, or that people only have a free will that they can interact with between what they're given.
But if what you believe doesn't go along with what scripture says, then what needs to change is what you believe.
What you believe needs to go along with what scripture says.
So when they're quoting scripture and you say, I don't agree with your theology behind it. What is that?
Is that not rejection of scripture? No, I'm not trying to say theology. The presupposition I don't agree with. And I don't agree with that. I don't want to keep going in circles.
Yeah, you're importing a presupposition that was never there, my friend. And that's a cognitive disjointedness. It's disconnection. Sorry about that. But it's the truth that I'm telling you in a friendly sort of way.
Because you're way off the mark on some of this stuff. That's okay. Hey, I'm a knucklehead on a lot of topics. It's not wrong to be a knucklehead. But on this one, sorry.
All right. Well, that's really all the questions I had really.
I can't say I'm satisfied. Thanks for taking the time.
It's good, I actually appreciate it.
And I want to encourage you to continue to read the Word of God, open it up and believe what it says. When you come across passages that challenge your presuppositions, believe it. And I know they've brought up some good points you're going to want to study anyways.
But I appreciate getting a chance to talk to you. Yeah, you too. Thank you guys.
God bless. That's good. I'm reminded of when Paul said it's necessary that there be disagreements among them, but the truth may be made known. In philosophy, they call it a dialectic. You come together and you argue your points, and the one party or both parties may walk away from their argument with an even stronger position than either of them came into it with.
So the truth may be known. The disagreements are necessary. And Paul doesn't condemn that. It's rather a good thing.
Healthy. Yeah, he kept bringing up a lot of the same points over and over again. I don't think he was really hearing us on some of that. And I hope he does wrestle with the scriptures and take this fight to the Word of God.
And that the Holy Spirit will show him that the law, you know, it says that every mouth may be stopped by the law. I think that's in Romans chapter 3. That's the purpose of the law is that every mouth is going to be stopped.
And then you'll see that if it depends on him and his works, he is not saved and he has already lost his salvation and he can't get it back.
Yeah, that might be what it indicates. I'd be sad to think that way. You know, but you know, it could be a signpost. Could be. He left. He left? Yeah. Yeah. You worn down. Hey, Matt, we went over four hours.
How long are you going to go? We're just getting started. Keep going until tomorrow. We only got 20 minutes left. Yeah. See who cooks, ran out of food for me. Well, who's the guy in the bottom left here?
Hi, we've all...
What's that? We've interacted before. I just have, I think like three simple questions. The third one, I think is fantastic, but I got two simple questions. Okay. So 1 Corinthians 13, you know, Paul gives a list of what love is.
Love is patient. Love is kind. All this and all that. Do you think that precedes any form of trust in any form of relationship? I don't understand the question. Any form of what? Do you believe that type of love, what love truly is, precedes any type of trust in any form of relationship?
Let's see here. Any form of relationship is so broad that it becomes a marriage. Okay. Marriage. Well, I teach on the theology of marriage. If there's an interesting, if there's a marriage issue, I can teach on it.
I could do a Bible study next week on the theology of marriage and talk about what true love really is. It's other centered.
And do you think that other centeredness would produce trust in someone? Other centeredness?
Yes. You can't, it's not a formula. Other centeredness produces trust because other people are so suspicious. They might not trust you. Some people might be gentle and they would. There's no guarantee.
Your obligation is to do what's right before God and not worry about somebody else. A lot of times in marriage, people think what I got to do is I'll do the right things and that person will respond properly.
That's not how it works. You do stuff independently of how that person is going to be and you act right according to Christ. And then you pray for that person and that's it. If you think there's a one-to-one that's supposed to do something, it's going to cause problems.
Why do you think the other person would react poorly to the other centeredness?
Who knows? Personality conflicts could be a damage to their psyche from childhood trauma. It could be the husband's pushy. It could be that the woman is rebellious. It could be all kinds of stuff. That's why when I do marriage counseling, it usually goes minimum two hours.
Minimum. Usually goes four hours, one session. You got to find out what the squeaky wheel is, what the problem is. And a lot of times, well, let's put it this way. Out of 36 times where I've done marriage counseling, 32 of them have been the problem has been the guy.
Because most guys don't understand biblical love and biblical headship. And a lot of times wives don't either. And so there's a problem. But when they come to me, they're desperate. So it makes sense.
Yeah. My sort of thought is that real love towards all those virtues that Paul 1 Corinthians 13 produces real trust in someone who has that humility towards that person's love. Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no.
You're thinking wrong.
Okay. Tell me. Tell me why. You're thinking, if I do this, then that person will do that.
I'm more so thinking of how love would actually respond to how a person is. No, no, no, no, no.
You don't want to have a formula where you say love is this and this is how the person is supposed to react. It doesn't work like that. That will lead you down a dead end with all kinds of problems. You talking about you and your wife?
No, I'm single. Okay. I'm more so thinking one's reaction to love is their duty to it. Because if it's the right reaction towards love, that love will probably produce trust in them. There's too many variables what you're talking about.
There's a lot going on there. Well, yeah. It's a case-by-case basis, but the general idea of marriage.
I'll tell you what, we're going to decide what we're going to talk on next week, but maybe marriage might be a good topic because people have an interest in it. And I do know the theology of marriage.
I can teach on it. Sure. So I start with the doctrine of the Trinity.
That's a good starting point. My only other question, because it's two o 'clock my time, is humility something that can be rationally boastful? Yes. What would be a circumstance of that?
Moses wrote in Numbers 12, 2, he said he was the most humble man on earth, or one of the most humble men, because it was true.
But do you think that humility is used in the boastful sense of life? Ephesians 2, 8, if we say...
You're breaking up and it's hard to hear because we've got people talking. Sorry.
Do you think that humility, the way you put it there, could be boastful in the sense of Ephesians 2, 8, like how Paul talks about... Not in that sense.
Not in that sense? I wouldn't say so. But if you read Numbers 12, 2, and you'll see about the issue of Moses, you know, he's humble, but he was a humble man. Yeah, Matt, you wrote a devotional, a short devotional on humility.
I'll put it in the article in the link there.
Yeah, check it out. Yeah, those are just some questions that come to mind when people talk about... Okay. Like how you guys were going back and forth and what's happening now. I'm not a Calvinist, but my experience is very Calvinistic.
I got to shut it down because it's just getting late. There's a lot of sound and I get overlaid with too much sound. So we'll figure out what we're going to talk about next week though, okay? Okay. All right, everybody.
Thank you. God bless. I'm shutting it down. Okay. We'll see. It's four hours. Okay.