September 7, 2016 Show with Latayne C. Scott on “The Heart’s Door: Hospitality in the Bible”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio

platform on which pastors, Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues

facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, iron sharpens iron, so one

man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, quote, we are cautioned to take heed whom we

converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another

wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear

from you, the listener, with your own questions.

Now here's our host, Chris Arns.

Good afternoon.

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania.

And the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming.

This is Chris Arns and your host of Iron Sharpens Iron wishing you all a happy Wednesday on

this seventh day of September 2016 and I'm so delighted to have back

on the program today an old friend of mine, Dr. Latane C. Scott.

She has been on this program a number of times and she is a Mormon convert to Christianity

by the grace and mercy of Jesus Christ.

She's the author of 16 published books including a classic titled The

Mormon Mirage.

A former member looks at the Mormon Church today and she's a recipient of the Distinguished Christian Service Award

by Pepperdine University in Malibu, California and she's also an award -winning poet and

today we're going to be addressing her latest book just recently published, The Heart Store, Hospitality

and the Bible and we're also going to be addressing a book

of poetry that was published back in February of this year, Passion

Power Proxy Release, and I remember how incredibly moved I was

nearby when we were celebrating Resurrection Day, Easter season as many call it,

and when I saw this poem that she had written, our guest Latane had written,

it totally blew me away for lack of better terms and she is truly an

extraordinarily gifted sister in Christ and it's my honor and privilege to.

Welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron, Dr. Latane C. Scott.

Thank you Chris for your show and I just appreciate your ministry so

much, thank you.

Well thank you and it's amazing to me over the years.

How I am discovering that we have mutual friends in common and

the longer I do this show I'll find out that the guest I'm interviewing knows you and it's just amazing

and was delighted to hear of your friendship with Rosaria Butterfield who I've interviewed a couple of times

and was delighted to hear that brother in Christ over at

the Puritan Reform Theological Seminary in Grand Rapids, Michigan, David Murray had interviewed

you.

A really remarkable interview that you were involved in with him on abortion

and so I really find it amazing how small the world really is.

But before we even go into our topic let me just announce to our listeners our email address if

anybody would like to join us on the air with a question.

Our email address is ChrisArnzen at gmail .com, C -H -R -I -S

-A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com and if you could please give us your

first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the USA, and if

you feel some need to remain anonymous if it makes you feel more comfortable we will honor

that request.

I just want to right off the bat read some of the

commendations that your book on poetry has received.

First of all we have a commendation from Don Taylor, author of Dust and

Diamond, Poems of Earth and Beyond.

Latain sees Scott's depth of scriptural knowledge and her poignant awareness of the inevitable

shortfall of human longings enable an exceptionally moving portrayal of human suffering

and Christians expectation of release through resurrection in Christ.

A must -read for serious Christians.

And we also have an endorsement from Jeanette Thomason from Whitestone

Publishing.

What is it like to reawaken from the dead?

What happens to your body, heart and soul?

Latain Scott gives you the experience with this beautiful collection in four short but

powerful parts of profound contemplation on the life, suffering, resurrection and meaning of Jesus Christ.

Sixty meditations each use scripture, poetry and reflection to make real

the wonder of your dry bones being refixed to Christ, the astonishment of God allowing

sacrifice like Abraham and Isaac.

Oh where is the angel, where is the ram and the ecstasy of rising reborn?

I hear these sounds across 2 ,000 years.

Jesus rising again in my heart.

You will turn the last page quickened in your love at being saved and then you will turn

to the start again for an experience of God that plums the mysteries of his love.

You didn't have to, you didn't have to, you wanted to.

A book to draw you closer to your maker and redeemer and ignite a new passion for life.

And last but not least we have Patti Hill, author of Goodness and Mercy.

I've long been an admirer of Latain Scott's poetry.

No one excites images quite like her.

To match her poetry with her scriptural insights in Passion, Power, Proxy and Release creates a

devotional of unparalleled power for renewal.

The intimacy with which she reflects on the suffering, death and resurrection of Christ will forever color my communion

experience.

I will never settle for routine or ceremony again.

Wow that's pretty powerful that includes the ordinance, one of the two ordinances

that our Lord has given us and I look forward to hearing some of these poems later on.

But before we even venture into your latest book on hospitality and the

book on poetry, just wanted to chat with you a bit about certain things.

Someone who you also know, Tim Challies, he was actually my guest on this program

last Friday.

Tim Challies, he's a Reformed writer who has decided to conduct his writing as a

patron supported ministry.

What does that mean and.

Why have you decided to pursue it as well?

He, as most people know, he's

a boy and he decided that

and so he prayed about it and thought about it for a while and asked a friend of his who was

involved with a website called patreon .com

and Tim sent out a that he was going to

resign from his job as a minister and but to do

that he would need support and so he talked about the

practice that Christian artists,

writers, musicians call patronage and this was very prominent back in the Middle Ages.

You know, Michelangelo, Da Vinci, others had patrons

in person to support them financially while they

pursued their creative endeavors.

In the case of an artist, of course, you have a piece of art that, in the case of a

writer or a musician, that writer or musician needs time alone,

needs... and

this may come as a big surprise.

Most Christian writers can't buy their groceries on their book royalties, so

supporting oneself as a writer, as a Christian writer in today's economy, very

rarely happens.

So Tim just asked people, would you be willing to spend $10 a

month to support me in my ministry?

And of course, I think Tim Challies is terrific.

A daily email of wonderful, you

more than deserve to

support him.

And then I thought, you know what, here I am holding down four part -time

jobs and one of which is writing, one of which was teaching, one which

was diversity, and the other was being...

I thought, wouldn't it be wonderful if I could quit the most time -consuming of those, which was

teaching in a... and just devote myself to the purely writing

-related thing.

My great delight, a number of

individuals, some of whom do it through the Patreon site,

but also my church.

The fact is

that I

have

17 completed books, which are either out of print or have never been published, and this gives

me the luxury of being able to publish them and get them out into the hands who

need them.

One of the most exciting things that Eastern European

Missions, which supplies Bibles in the Ukraine

mainly, has several of my books'

languages, so that people can have some good materials.

Now, I can do that because I'm being supported and I can give that away, which is a great pleasure to me,

to give the foreign rights, the language of.

Wow, that's something.

Yeah, I know a number of people, a number of Christians, who have adopted children from

Ukraine and make trips there, and it's also sad to see how many of

the children that have been adopted have a lot to overcome in their lives because of

the horrible circumstances they were involved in, either through their

biological parents or from the orphanages that they were in.

But I remembered something very valuable, so as not to offend any

Ukrainians, you've learned that you never say, the Ukraine, as

people here in America are in a habit of saying, it's just Ukraine, not the

Ukraine.

Okay, that's good to know.

Yeah, I've heard that that is taken as an insult because it's almost a

disparaging way of referring to the country, and apparently that's the way Russians used to refer to it.

But now, you were saying that you are supported by your local church.

Is it unusual for a local Church of Christ to support a woman writer, financially, in ministry?

Now, this is dabbling in a little bit of controversy here, but is that.

Unusual?

Well, I've taken, throughout my 42 years as a Christian, I've taken very seriously the idea of

Biblical authority and the authority of male leadership in a church.

And so, I worship in a church in which male authority,

even though I might have something else,

helps me learn something from everyone who teaches.

So, it doesn't bother me that I have more education or perhaps more speaking experience than

some of it.

It's been a pleasure to me to

exemplify.

I mean, male

leadership is not

because of lack of equality, but just as a matter of practice.

The complementarianism it's basically referred to in my circle.

Complementarianism, yes.

And I realize that might be offensive to some of your readers.

Yeah, well, most of my listeners would not be offended by that.

They would be offended if I.

Started endorsing the opposite view.

Well, we're safe then.

We're safe then.

But in the Churches of Christ, a

woman writer, sometimes

they support women missionaries,

but I don't know of a single Church of

Christ.

These people are

giving me the ability to devote myself to that kind of writing, so that I can give it to

Eastern European

missions.

I can

devote myself to the ministry of writing, which God has given me the ability to do, and I'm just so grateful.

Well, praise God.

And obviously, it is.

Very difficult in the 21st century, especially to pigeonhole

Church of Christ congregations.

It might have been more easy years ago to guess or

presume accurately what a church stood for, but you

happen to be somebody who is a very irenic Christian who doesn't seem to

have the stereotypical judgmentalism that has been

unfortunately a caricature in that fellowship, and

unfortunately also a rightfully earned reputation of

looking upon themselves as the only true believers on the face of the earth and that kind of thing.

How do you respond to my.

Description of the situation and of you personally as well?

Well, you know, coming out of Mormonism, I was like

a slimmed

-down version of religion,

and I was blissfully unaware of many of the things that I think have

characterized the Churches of Christ in the past, because the congregation that I've worshiped with

for 43 years, other than a small period of

time, extremely accepted.

That's one of the beauties of our

church, I think it is, that I have

ever seen.

And there's also no prejudice against people who are mentally ill, who are poor.

I've not seen that personally, although I do understand that's been a feature,

that idea that we're

some people in the Churches of Christ.

But it's not of mine, and it's certainly not my opinion at all, because I figure God would let me in,

have anybody in, according to His own rules and

standards, and not mine.

So yes, I am an outsider.

And it's interesting that you also identified it that way,

because that was.

The old slogan, is that they claimed not to be a denomination of any kind.

Well, because they have.

No central headquarters, they don't have that in common with other denominations.

But I think they're recritizing of their doctrines

and practices.

That's just my opinion.

Well, you are certainly one of the most

actively involved members of that fellowship who

are very frequently cooperating and building friendships with theologically Reformed Christians,.

Which is a very unusual thing that I have witnessed.

I keep getting surrounded by you guys.

I met you, and then when I was in Grand Rapids, coming into contact with David Murray, which led me to some

challenges.

And then the school that I taught at, a school that uses

materials from Veritas Publishing Company, and

the stance, the

theological stance of

most...

So.

You've got me surrounded here.

Well, what other projects are you working on?

I had just finished and

read through the Bible, and the

idea is that the man and his wife get together one night a week, they get a babysitter for the

kids, and they sit down and discuss those things.

And I tell

you, so many of these guys were getting their theological...

They didn't have a touch.

And this way, part of the day, each of them is

looking at the same materials, answering some of the same questions, and then getting together to talk about how

the issues...

They have to

do it

their...

That way...

And I

went

on to each other...

Well, I promise my listeners, I will eventually get to the book on hospitality and the book on

poetry, but I just have a few more questions I'd like to ask before we reach that point.

We already have a couple of people who have written to ask about the hospitality issue.

But you said that Trinity Southwest University, which is

headed by Dr. Stephen Collins...

And by the way, I want our listeners to write down on their

calendars that I will be interviewing Dr. Stephen Collins on October

the 4th.

He is an archaeologist, and he has discovered the site of

Sodom.

And I know that he is very, very certain of this.

I've seen videos of him discussing this fascinating discovery, where he

doesn't say that he thinks he discovered the site of Sodom.

He is absolutely certain he's discovered the site of Sodom.

And this is an interview I'm looking forward to

revisiting, because I did interview Dr. Collins many years ago, I'd say somewhere between 2006 and

2010.

So I guess it's not that many years ago, but it's quite a number of years ago.

And I'm looking forward to his return.

But he, I believe, is the dean of that school, and he is partnering

with you in publishing your books.

Tell us about that.

Well, it's one thing in my own books, but

Steve and I were talking, and he said, I would really like to bring your writing under the aegis

of Trinity Southwest University.

This new hospitality book is TSU Press, and most of my books from now on.

I am the dean of the College of

Biblical Representational Research there, which is a college that I've

developed along with a colleague.

And then we're also going to begin a writing school.

And I think this might be of interest to your listeners, Chris, because

many of the writing institutes for Christian writing

focus toward

or for writing,

but sometimes I think they sacrifice.

What

we'd like to do is be able to train people through

seminars and also training at Trinity, is how do you effectively,

how do you, and since I have been involved with writing several people, coming under

the aegis

produce of my book came out.

Was that the Mormon

Mirage?

Wow.

Help people achieve their dreams of effectively writing.

So I'm very excited.

Praise God.

And I just want to repeat.

Our email address.

It's chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com.

And actually, I'm going to go to our first station break right now.

And I hope that when we return, we have some more of our listeners joining us with questions for

Latane C. Scott.

So don't go away.

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Welcome back.

This is Chris Arns.

And if you just tuned us in, our guest today for the full two hours is Dr. Latane C. Scott, a

Mormon convert to Christianity, author of 16 published books, including the classic work, The Mormon

Mirage, a former Mormon, looks at the Mormon church today.

And today we are eventually going to be addressing two of her books, The Heart's Door, Hospitality in

the Bible, which is hot off the press, and also her book of collected

poetic writings, Passion, Power, Proxy, and Release.

And if you'd like to join us on the air, our email address is ChrisArnsen at gmail .com.

ChrisArnsen at gmail .com.

And as I said earlier, please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country

of residence if you live outside of the USA.

And as I always say, if it really makes you feel more comfortable and you prefer to remain

anonymous, you may do so.

And tell us about the projected work that Kriegel

is publishing involving you and three other ex -Mormon PhDs.

I'm sure that's going to be fascinating for our listeners to hear about.

And by the way, people are maybe wondering why I am kind of gliding right over that

very critical aspect of your life, the fact that you are a Mormon.

Latane and I have discussed this on a number of occasions on Iron, Sharp, and Zion, and you can find out

more about her experiences as a Mormon, her conversion to Christianity, also her

initial conversion to Mormonism.

But you can find out more about her testimony by going to IronSharpandZionRadio

.com, IronSharpandZionRadio .com, and going to the archives where we have past

interviews there.

And eventually, I'm even going to get, God willing, and if my new

webmaster eventually finds the time, we would love to get the old

IronSharpandZion programs archived on the new website as well, because there

is six, seven years of really great programs that are currently not

available to the public.

So hopefully those will be back on an archive.

But tell us something about this exciting new work that Kriegel is publishing, as I mentioned, involving ex

-Mormon PhDs,.

Including yourself.

I'm not, no, I don't know if you're from Corey Miller,

who is a campus -based, or university

-based...

I am on his email list, so I know of him.

I have never directly dialogued with him as of yet.

Well, he is an ex -Mormon and a PhD, and he got this idea that it would be

a great thing to publish a book that was written by several people who had

once been Mormons, gotten their doctorates.

Well, there are very, very, very few of us.

Many, many thinking people, when they leave Mormonism, and they've been deeply involved with it, are so

soured on religion that they don't become...

And Chris, you and I have discussed this particular phenomenon, the

sense of betrayal, of equilibrium,

to make good... as many people who've been deeply involved with

Mormonism, once they find out that the Joseph Smith story, the continuing

revelation, and temple worship, and all that, is just a figment of someone... not

anything you can put your... they just walk away

and PhDs.

And one of them is Lynne Miller, and I'm... Wilder, I'm sorry, Lynne...

Yeah, she was just on the program recently.

Exactly,

unveiling

his

mission after reading the Bible there,

and then also the story of Dr. Vince Eccles, who is an example of

someone who loves the Lord Jesus Christ, but is a little bit church

-shy, gun -shy.

It's a real expertise,

and I think it's

going to be

an interesting book.

There's certainly never been anything

like it.

Oh, great.

In fact, there is a local Orthodox Presbyterian pastor who was a former

Mormon.

He was raised in the Mormon church.

His family is still Mormon, that is his parents, and I'm not sure if he had

siblings, but I know that his parents are still Mormon, but he is not, and as I said, is an Orthodox Presbyterian pastor

here locally in Carlisle.

But that is indefinitely a fascinating issue that I will certainly follow up on,

and God willing, have an interview with you on and some of the other contributors to that.

Now, going back to the issue of poetry, why is Christian poetry

so ignored by Christians, unless it is in song

lyrics and things like that?

And of course, in greeting cards.

Exactly.

Well, you think about it.

You go into a Christian bookstore, and what percentage of the books there

don't publish it?

Readers won't buy it, and yet if you ask people, they will have probably a thing,

but it's probably from the 1700s, you know, that John Donne

or William Blake or someone.

Streams in the Desert has some wonderful old poems in there.

Exactly, but nobody is promoting

Christian poetry today, and you know, Chris, years ago, I read Bob Reiners.

Are you familiar with that book?

No, I'm not.

It's a book in which a man who had been in the entertainment industry was turning over to the

secular world the arts.

Why are we turning the arts over to them?

Why don't we have great Christian artists?

Why don't we have great Christian poets?

Why don't we have great Christians?

It's changing.

That's really changing in the last four or five years.

But Christians as a whole don't support it, and so it's a

phenomenon I think is very odd, and yet,

confronted with poems, people have the same reaction that you

mentioned earlier.

They're deeply moved.

They're deeply touched, because poetry is actually the language of the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit spoke in poetry to, you know, through his prophet

in the writing of the Bible.

I mean, language,

and yet people don't think of poetry as being something legitimate

and necessary in their lives, and it certainly is.

Well, why is it that.

There is some snobbery or perhaps even some rightful criticism of those

involved in the.

Literary field, specifically in regard to Christian poetry?

I think because many people who are writing poetry today,

emphasizing

so much that poetic

language and poetic imagery in it.

So many things have been written about our Lord Jesus Christ and his suffering, and other things, but

sometimes it's very difficult to be original and not be repetitive.

And so if you look at the poets of the past, the great poets of the past,

many of the great poets of the past were writing on Christian themes.

Nobody who is the poet laureate of any state that I know of, no one who is

being asked to speak at the White House and read their poetry, none of those people are.

And I think it's just a shame, and I believe, like Bob Reiner says,

we need to take

revelation.

Yeah, I don't mean in

the sense of revelation, but who quicken our minds to be

able to sing his praise.

Yeah, by the way,.

I do, it really bothers me, and I'm sure you have heard this too, and I don't

want to be too broad -brushing here, because I know that maybe some people are sincere when they

say this, but it bothers me when someone who is Christian, with

the appearance of trying to reveal that they are humble,

will say, I didn't write a word of this, this is all of God, this is all of

the Holy Spirit, which in reality, they're not humbling themselves, they're exalting themselves as a modern -day

prophet.

I never thought of that, but yeah, I see why you say that.

But anyway, I'm sorry I interrupted you.

No, that's okay, that's okay,.

But I would, I've actually, because I

have entered several secular poetry contests

that are going on, I'm

intrigued by

hearing the

gospel

do that, which I never...

And your book,.

Some of those that have written endorsements of it, since I only have heard, or read, I should say,

the one poem, and we're going to have you read some of these poems, by the way, so our listeners will have their

appetites whetted.

But there seems to be, according to your

admirers, those who have enjoyed this book of poetry, Passion, Power,

Proxy, Release, they have described it as a communion devotional.

And why is there, in your estimation, a need for devotionals to emphasize communion, or

the Lord's Supper?

Well, I'm not sure.

In the Reformed tradition, is communion served weekly, quarterly?

Oh, in the Reformed tradition, there are all kinds of differences of opinion.

In fact, he hotly debated differences of opinion, because you have those

congregations, like mine, that have it once a month.

You have those Reformed congregations that insist that it must be every Lord's Day.

You have some that insist that it has to be done at night, because of the Last Supper

being an evening meal.

You know, you have all different kinds of views.

You even have some differences of opinion as to whether this

is purely a memorial supper.

That would be a view that, in the Reformation, Zwingli held to.

Or if there is much more of a spiritual significance and presence of

Christ, as Calvin held to, and other Reformers.

So you cannot pigeonhole Calvinists or Reformed Christians on the Lord's Supper at all.

And there is even a group that I adamantly oppose that has even adopted

infant communion, which I am, just as the Eastern Orthodox practice, but I'm very opposed to that.

But anyway, I'm sorry.

Oh my.

Goodness.

Well, that's okay.

I've learned a lot through that.

In my own fellowship, we have communion every Lord's Day.

Something that's being done 52 times a year and is part of a worship service can sometimes become

routine, shall we say.

And I'm going to speak for myself.

Sometimes it becomes routine for me.

I'm not going to speak for everyone else.

And so I have set out for years to write poems,

many of which address precisely and specifically the

taking of the Lord's Supper.

So as I began compiling these poems, I thought, you know, I bet other people would

benefit from this.

And I started thinking, as I started putting my poems together, that many of them were

about the passion of Christ.

For many years, every Good Friday, I wrote a poem.

Others were the feeling of power.

Other poems

drew pain.

You know, He

was a God in the other sense.

And because of that, He can intercede for us with the Book of Hebrews 12.

And then the last ones had to do with the

idea of resurrection and the idea that we're

the Lord Jesus Christ.

And when I figured

that out, I realized that that was exactly what Philippians

3, 10 through 11 says.

It says that I wanted to know Christ.

Philippians,

that many people

have told,

take this book

into the

communion

experience.

During the communion, they'll read one of these poems and contemplate.

Kind of helps me.

One of the people, the manuscript of this book, everywhere

he went there.

Yeah, you're right.

Other than something that was straight out of the scriptures.

Exactly.

Open

up

the

hymn.

Amen.

Well, I

would

actually

like you, if

you can,.

Read some of these poems, maybe three.

And this is something that I've always been a big

admirer of your voice, actually.

In fact, I have had listeners, even going back to the old program,

comment about how soothing your voice is.

Have you already, or do you plan on creating.

This as an audio book?

I never thought of it.

Thank you.

Well, I think that's something you should seriously consider, because obviously poetry is something that is

perfect for an audio book.

But if you could provide some of your examples of poetry.

For our

listeners.

Well, that was when he mentioned that,

he also mentioned something that I'd never thought about.

And that is that the big,

all were killed, was from it, that ran

from the,

was crossed.

I will read the

scripture in 18 .1.

When he had finished praying, Jesus left with his children

on the other side, and he and

200 and they're

bleating all in

their duty of meeting

out death.

The temple has a

conduit drains from the

great breath,

leaves of the olive trees tremble as the wind heaves and lunges into

men before

he

crossed.

Praise God.

That

is intense.

And by the way, for those of you listening who.

Are wondering who William Barclay was, who inspired that poem, he was a Church of Scotland

minister.

And he went home to be with the Lord probably about 40 years ago, somewhere around

that neighborhood of time in the 1970s.

And I know that my pastor, David Campbell, who was from Scotland and

educated in the Church of Scotland Seminary, I'm sure that he would be happy to hear

that that was, that he was, William Barclay was an inspiration to that poem.

I would love, I'm sorry.

May I read the, oh yeah, definitely.

We often speak with passion about the privilege we have of making contact with the blood of Christ,

that point at which we achieve salvation through his blood.

We know it symbolizes son

to Jesus as he may contact with

the blood.

Praise God.

I would love for you to read the poem, other than the one that you just.

Read, is the only one that I have read so far since I don't have the book yet, the

devotional, about the resurrection of Christ that

I had first read somewhere in the neighborhood of.

Easter of this year.

Okay, I think I know which one you're talking about.

Yes.

Thank you, that honors me that you remember it.

Yes, that when you were running your hands on the stone.

That's the one, that's the one.

I've got it right here.

Well, the scripture to accompany this poem, we were

therefore buried with him through baptism into death, and

we too may live a new life.

For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united

with him in a resurrection like he accompanies that.

So whisper,

unearthly stillness greets, as he

surveys the earth that has, I hear

these sounds across 2000 years and my lips, I

want to tear away my darkness,

fleeing against the world.

The sound I hear, the sound I hear is the sound of my joy.

Praise God, praise God,

I love that poem.

Well, thank you, thank you.

And I'm sorry.

That's okay.

Would you like for me to read the devotional thought that went with that?

Yes, sure.

And as Jesus is to by more direct evidence

than any other

of the witnessed hundred

people at a time.

But Jesus draws us to him one person at a time.

Each person who will

mimic his

death, but the resurrection is

only in the waters of baptism internally

as well in the depth of each soul.

Amen.

I have a listener that has a question for.

You about your poetry.

And let's see, I just had it here a second ago.

And in fact, it is a 12 year old girl from Hilltop, Hilltop, Texas.

Her name is Abigail.

And her mom writes, her mom is Linda in Hilltop, Texas.

And she writes, my 12 year old grand, oh, granddaughter, Abigail is very

interested in writing poetry.

And here are her questions.

Where do you get your inspiration?

And is writing poetry more like a labor for you?

Or do things just come to you?

Oh, I got in high school.

So her first question was, where do I get my ideas?

I think with that.

Yes.

What's your inspiration?

What's my inspiration?

Quite often a phrase or an image will just suddenly appear in my

mind.

And in the case of the poem I just read, I was trying to think about what it

would have been like for Jesus awakening in the tomb.

And it was within, not from the point of view of what he could see, because he

couldn't see anything, but what he could feel and what he could hear.

And that's why the image of his fingers into the rest of the

wheel and those things.

So quite often that's an image or phrase or just a little snippet of

something.

And if I will be obedient to the spirit and sit down and use

that prompt to write a poem, quite often it's a satisfying poem.

Now your question about writing poetry as a chore, it has never ever once been a chore.

Sometimes it is pain, times

it

involves

Like somebody writing a autobiography and a part of their life is a very disturbing, dark

part that it might even be revealing secrets that they don't want anybody to know,.

But feel compelled to write about them.

Well, I want to tell Abigail that infants and teenagers,

there are parts of themselves they want to keep secret.

And poetry is a very good way to do that because you can write the poem and it can be in

someone else's voice.

And it doesn't have to be like an autobiography where you're telling things

to reveal something about the writer, but it doesn't always have to be

about the writer's own opinion.

Sometimes I write poems to express something

just because I can be their voice.

Well, guess what, Abigail?

You're.

Getting a free copy of Latane C. Scott's book on hospitality.

We don't have the poetic collection available for you, but we're going to have

that book shipped out to your grandma and she can share.

That with you and read that with you.

Oh, for Abigail, she needs a copy of the poetry book.

I'll make sure she gets that.

Oh, great.

If you want to send her a gift, let's do that for her.

All right, terrific.

We'll do that.

So you're getting two books, Abigail.

Thank you so much for wanting to write that question today.

And guess what, Abigail?

Since you're a first -time questioner on Iron Sharpens Iron, you're also going to get a brand new

New American Standard Bible.

And it's a really beautiful edition of the New American Standard Bible with an embossed cross on the cover.

And it's a really perfect size for carrying around.

And it's a little bit bigger than pocket size, but it's a handy Bible.

A woman could easily carry it in her purse.

And so you're getting three books for contributing to our program today, Abigail.

And just make sure your grandma gives us your mailing address.

We're going to another break right now.

And if you'd like to join us on the air, our email address is chrisorensen at gmail .com.

There have been a couple of other people waiting very patiently.

And as my former co -host used to say to me, how do you know that they're waiting patiently?

Well, actually, I don't.

I just haven't heard any nasty comments about them having to wait.

But I appreciate you waiting to have your questions asked and answered.

And we'll get to you as soon as we can.

But we have to go to a word from our sponsors now who make this program possible.

So we look forward to receiving your questions after these words from our sponsors.

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Welcome back.

This is Chris Orns and if you just tuned us in, our guest today is an old friend of mine, Dr. Latane C.

Scott, who is a Mormon convert to Christianity, author of 16 published books, including the

classic work, The Mormon Mirage.

A former member, looks at the Mormon church today.

She's also a recipient of the Distinguished Christian Service Award by Pepperdine University and an award -winning poet.

We are addressing her books, The Heart's Door, Hospitality in the Bible, and we're

also discussing her collection of poetry, Passion Power Proxy Release.

And if you'd like to join us on the air with a question, our email address is chrisornsen at gmail .com,

chrisornsen at gmail .com.

Now, let's start to discuss for a bit your book on hospitality.

Now, it's interesting that the circles that I travel in

predominantly, the theologically reformed Calvinist folks, they might hear

something like that.

They might hear a topic like that, hospitality in the Bible, and they might

instinctively react like the church lady on Saturday Night Live.

Well, isn't that special?

You know, they might think, isn't this just a cute, quaint thing?

And I can't wait to let my wife or my grandmother hear about this book.

But the issue is a very serious one, I think, because

I don't think that Christians and leaders of churches, elders

and so on, may never realize how many people

were visiting their congregations and left never to return because they were ignored,

because no one greeted them warmly, no one invited them over their home,

and who knows what may have happened with those people, where they may have wound up.

And it's interesting that although it is very true

that Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed

because of the wickedness of homosexuality, that is certainly true, and

liberals try to undermine that by referring to the the

lack of hospitality and charity that Sodom and Gomorrah had.

But very often conservatives and Bible -believing Christians undermine

the very thing that the liberals say is indeed a part of the reason that

God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah.

And in fact we have in Ezekiel 16, starting in

verse 49, and I should have my glasses on, but I don't.

Behold, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom.

She and her daughters had arrogance, abundant food, and careless ease, but

she did not help the poor and needy.

Thus they were haughty and committed abominations before me.

Therefore I removed them when I saw it.

And so it wasn't exclusively the wickedness of

homosexuality, which is indeed a major part that cannot be overlooked.

But as I said, don't you think that we who are Bible -believing Christians who have a very strong view of

biblical morality, we often overlook a sin such as

lacking hospitality as something trivial when it is indeed something that God hates.

How would you respond to that?

I agree with you.

I agree with that completely.

In fact, one of the secrets of hospitality is

inviting people that are not like you to your home.

See, I think what I observe among the Christians that I know of my

own fellowship and others, is that they're very good about having

the people who are not like them.

And Rosaria Butterfield, you know, one of my personal

heroines of the faith, she made a big deal

where she told about how she went from

being a committed lesbian

community to being a New Testament Christian, and

the major index or link between her former

life and her present life was a pastor, a minister, who treated her courteously and respectfully.

And she now has respect for making her home

mostly to people who come to her home.

And I just admire her and respect her so much for that because she's showing that

the thing that she can also do for others,

you can't open your coffee or something.

Yeah.

In fact, it is somewhat providential that not only did you write this book on hospitality, but you also did

co -author with Dr. Stephen Collins, the book, Discovering Sodom, Discovering the City of Sodom.

And let me repeat that on October 4th, we have Dr. Stephen Collins

on Iron Sharpens Iron.

That is a Tuesday, October 4th, from 4 to 6 p .m.

I'm sure you'll be fascinated by his archaeological discovery and discussion of that.

And our guest today co -authored the book about that discovery, Discovering the City of Sodom.

So we hope that you join us.

Now, I don't know if you've ever read Jerry Bridges' book,

Respectable Sins.

Jerry Bridges was a Reformed pastor, a

Presbyterian pastor, who just went home to be with the Lord, I don't know, somewhere in the neighborhood of five or six months ago.

It wasn't that long ago.

And he was a phenomenal writer.

He wrote, Trusting God Even When Life Hurts.

And Respectable Sins is just another one of them.

But this seems to fall under the category of something that I hinted on before,

this area of lacking hospitality.

Because you could have people who are in many respects in their lives,

exemplary Christians, people who are very godly, who are very devoted to prayer, and might

even be devoted to charitable and benevolent deeds from a distance.

You know, they may even send a great portion of their income to missionary work,

and they may do a lot of things.

But the lacking of hospitality, that sin seems to be something that can creep

into nearly any Christian's life, no matter how godly they may be in many other

spheres of living.

And it has become a respectable sin, just as Jerry Bridges coined that phrase in his title.

Well, when he told

the parable about who you're serving,

because I realized it wasn't about entertaining, it was about being godly, and

doing what God does when he adopts us.

And Jesus says the best hospitality is that which you give to somebody that's unlike you,

who will repay you.

And when I came to,

hospitality is not

optional.

Amen, amen.

And obviously, there are certain circumstances that

a Christian may be in, where they do not own the home that they live in or something.

But hospitality can be creatively displayed and expressed

in different ways.

For instance, you know, inviting even people out to a restaurant or what have you.

It could be multiple ways that even somebody who doesn't have their own home can demonstrate

that.

Can they not?

Yes, they can.

And your home is your extension of yourself.

Some of the most lovely hospitality, who

ran upon hard financial times, sold their home through

their travel trailer in a KOA.

Sometimes we look at what we have.

I'll tell you a story.

Do you want to hear a funny story about that?

Oh yeah, definitely.

For a long time.

Oh yeah, I even hired them for a fundraising concert back in the late 1980s.

Well, one of the other groups, AVB, that was...

Oh yeah, acapella vocal group.

Yeah, that was...

They had been invited to Albuquerque to do a concert.

And somehow or another, the person who invited them did not get the word to them that the concert had to be

canceled.

And so I had told the guys, everybody in that

ministry, well, I didn't know about the

concerts in the hospital.

And I'd been down at the hospital and I'd come home and in the interim, my garbage

disposal had broken.

And I had dirty dishes sitting all around.

These guys rang my doorbell and said,

come on in and go out in my garden and pick anything that's growing and eatable.

Somebody else go to my...

We just...

I cooked whatever I had.

Somebody came over and sat in the sink.

I had no food prepared.

But what meant the

most to them, not

patting myself on the back, I'm going to say that I rose to the occasion.

Than they ever are.

Yeah, that is very true.

And obviously, if one of your failures in life or

your flaws is being perhaps overly untidy, that is a

motivation to change that.

Exactly, yeah.

And let's see, we have another listener.

And this is Tyler in Mastic Beach, Long Island, New York, who

says, is a good example of biblical hospitality when the apostle Matthew brought our

Lord into his house for dinner and to celebrate his repayment to all those he had

wronged as a tax collector.

Just the way I think.

Anybody opening that is an example of it.

And it's a great example because this man, well, you know, a tax

collector was like the scum of the earth to...

Well, Tyler, guess what?

You're getting a free copy of Latain C. Scott's book, The Heart Store,

Hospitality in the Bible.

So make sure you get us your mailing address and we'll have that shipped out to you.

And by the way, we thank our friends at Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service,

cvbbs .com, who mail out all of our winner's books

to those who have submitted questions.

And so we ask of you to, whenever you're hearing actually a author being

interviewed and you're wondering, where can I get this book?

You can go to cvbbs .com because if they don't already have it, they will get it for you and they

will sell it to you at a very

competitively reasonable price.

In fact, perhaps even cheaper than most places that you would get that.

And you'll also be helping Iron Sharpens Iron because they sponsor this program.

So...

God bless them. God bless them.

Yes, cvbbs .com.

And we thank Todd and Patty Jennings for

sponsoring us for such a long time.

And I got to admit, Latain, you have me a little tongue -tied today because I'm being I'm kind of

embarrassed interviewing somebody who has such a grasp of the English language.

And I'm perhaps worried about making a fool of myself.

But then again, I should be used to that because I do that every day.

So...

We have CJ in Lindenhurst, Long Island,

who says, I understand that we are to be hospitable to those who

disagree with us on things and those who are different from us.

But what about the warnings in 2 John chapter 1

not to invite false teachers into our home?

Oh, that's very perceptive.

Prevent me as a Christian.

And I think the reason for that is the home is such a sacred place of such vulnerability.

Cannot open it up to someone who comes claiming

to

Mormon missionaries are commanded to teach and not be taught.

So they're not coming for a discussion or an interchange with you.

They're coming to teach you.

And I think that passage in 2 John, I agree with you, 100 with the

aim of teaching them false

doctrine.

Really?

That's interesting.

Now, would you -.

For instance, I have friends who are apologists, who readily welcome Jehovah's

Witnesses into their home because they know Greek and there is not

even a remote chance that these cult members are going to deceive

these individuals with a lie.

And they really do want to win these people for Christ and expose the error and give them the truth.

Would you say that that is a blanket rule for every Christian?

Or do you think that that is only for those who may be susceptible, new believers?

And also, perhaps you could comment on this.

I have heard that interpreted as we are not to let somebody

actually live in our home for a season.

And if you will set up shop as a place where they are

proselytizing false teaching to not only our family members, but our neighbors, at

least even for a season of time, that we are not to permit that.

But if you could comment on both those questions.

Well, first of all,

for that, your amount of knowledge that you have with the other person, I don't think is the issue.

Here's what I think is the issue, Chris.

After studying hospitality so in -depth and looking at, you know, at everything I could find in the Bible about it,

I've concluded that your home is a sacred place.

When you open it up, you're opening yourself up and showing vulnerability to the person that's coming here.

And because of that symbol, I don't believe a Christian should invite someone

the purpose of bringing false doctrine to you into your home.

Now, what do I do, for instance, when the Mormon missionaries come to my door, which they don't very often because I've been

excommunicated.

But when they come to my door, I tell them, you know what, I love the Lord Jesus Christ.

I love my faith.

And I am an ex -Mormon.

And I would love to take you to any restaurant in town that you want to go to.

I'll buy you the biggest steak you can eat.

And you can ask me any question you want to.

And if you're uncomfortable, you can get up and leave.

And if I'm uncomfortable, I can get up and leave.

And there you are.

Because a restaurant is not a place of extreme vulnerability like your home is.

A restaurant is not the symbol that your home is.

Your home is something sacred.

A home is something that when you invite somebody into it, you're opening yourself.

By definition, you are.

So, I don't condemn anybody who invites people into their homes because they know that they are bringing false doctrine.

But I would never...

That's interesting.

Well, we also have Arnie in Perry County,

Pennsylvania, who says, I heard earlier your guest say that

she is a great admirer of Rosaria Butterfield, the former lesbian.

And one thing that is confusing me right now is if you reject

having people with false teaching into your home, how could you have

invited homosexuals into your home who may try to proselytize that as

an acceptable and, in fact, wonderful way of living?

And that's what Rosaria compels us to do, is to invite those involved in that

behavior into our home so that the Lord could use us to win them to Christ.

Ah, that's a good question.

I would say that what I'm reading in 2 John is that this is someone who's bringing something

doctrinal to you, is teaching something about Jesus.

I'm going to get 2 John out here and read it again just so that I don't...

While you're looking it up, I'm going to repeat our email address.

It's chrisarnsen at gmail .com, C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N

-Z -E -N at gmail .com.

And please give us your first name, city and state, and country of residence.

And you may remain anonymous if it makes you feel more comfortable.

And have you found the text?

I did.

It's 2 John, and I'm going to read verses 7 through 11.

Many deceivers have gone out into the world who don't confess Jesus Christ is coming in the flesh.

This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

Look to yourselves that we don't lose, but receive a

full reward.

Whoever transgresses and doesn't abide in the doctrine of Christ...

The assumption is this is somebody that you're supposed to have some level ground with in terms of an

understanding of Christ.

He doesn't have God.

He abides in the doctrine of Christ.

If anyone comes to you and doesn't bring this doctrine...

In other words, to me, that said, we're talking not about non -believers.

We're talking about people that have not received

him into your house nor greeted him, for he who greets him shares in his evil deeds.

So to answer the question that the listener had, I don't see

that having an agnostic or atheistic...

If I had someone, a

minister...

Like a Matthew Vines, who is a male homosexual minister.

And he is like a part of a movement of quote -unquote evangelical homosexuality.

If Matthew Vines wanted to come to my home, I would tell him that's not an appropriate place to talk about these things.

I would treat him like I would a Mormon or a Jehovah's Witness.

Someone who wants to use our terminology of Christianity, but wants to bring a false side in

the doctrine.

And by the way, Arnie, you're getting a free copy of Latane C. Scott's book as

well, The Heart Store Hospitality in the Bible.

So please give us your full mailing address as soon as possible.

In fact, we have to break right now for our final commercial break.

And if you'd like to join us, I can't believe the time has flown by so quickly.

We've only got a half hour or actually less than a half hour left.

But if you have any questions, I would send them as soon as you can to chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Don't go away.

We'll be right back with Latane Scott.

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Welcome back.

This is Chris Arnsen.

If you just tuned us in for the last 90 minutes in the next half hour to come, our guest today has

been Dr. Latane C. Scott, Mormon convert to Christianity, author of 16

published books, including the Mormon Mirage, a former member of LOOKS at the Mormon Church Today, recipient

of the Distinguished Christian Service Award by Pepperdine University, an award -winning poet.

We have been discussing her poetry and also her latest book, The Heart Store,

Hospitality in the Bible, which according to you, Latane, this was actually in print years ago with

Zondervan, and you are bringing it back into print.

Well, I'm

trying to make it more applicable to

single

men, weekly studies with a

leader's guide so that the answers are provided

within their

week if someone chooses to do that.

Well, that's a remarkable providence because within seconds prior to you

saying that update on the book, I have a question from Indianapolis, Indiana

on the very issue that you just addressed.

Erin from Indianapolis, Indiana asks, does Latane have different advice or cautions for an

unmarried hostess versus a married couple or family, or am I being too cautious to

remain above reproach?

Oh, I think there's help you with the

load and

do it together.

Do it on the buddy system.

Somebody else has better done, and

I know of, I've never heard of a man doing that,

so if you wanted to reach out and

do this together.

Well, great, great suggestions, and Erin, you're also getting a free copy of Latane C. Scott's book, The

Heart Store, Hospitality in the Bible.

Thank you for contributing that question to us, and before I move on, I just have to give a plug

from one of our sponsors.

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running this conference, including Pastor Josh Bice of the Praise Mill Baptist Church.

I am going to this conference at no charge to me.

I'm having an exhibitor's booth there to promote Iron Sharpens Iron.

And I am also in great debt to my dear friends and sponsors at

Linnbrook Baptist Church on Long Island who have paid for all of my other expenses to be

there, and it is just a thrill for me to be at this

event, and some of the speakers there include people we have actually brought up in conversation today

who are mutual friends of mine and Latane C. Scott.

Tim Challies is one of the speakers.

Rosaria Butterfield is one of the speakers, and other speakers include Paul Washer, Stephen

J. Lawson, D .A. Carson, Voti Baucom.

Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries has been my dear friend since 1995.

Conrad M. Bayway, who is one of the most powerful preachers on the planet Earth, I

strongly urge you to get in a train, plane, or automobile and hear him preach any time

that you have the capability of doing so, because he is an extraordinary

preacher of the Gospel.

He actually rightly deserves a nickname that he has received, the Spurgeon of Africa.

He is pastor of Kibwata Baptist Church in Lusaka, Zambia, Africa, and I have been friends with

him since 1995, and he has preached here in the States on a number of occasions.

It seems like more and more he is coming out to the States several times a year now,

where it used to be even rare to see him once a year.

Now he's coming several times a year all over the country.

Todd Friel of Wretched TV and Wretched Radio, and a host of others.

That's not even half the number of folks who are going to be speaking.

Phil Johnson is just another one who is the executive director of John MacArthur's ministry, and if you want

more details on this, go to g3conference .com, g3conference .com.

If you register, I'm asking you please to tell them that you heard about the G3 Conference

from Chris Arnzen of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, and if you're wondering what G3 stands for,

it's Grace, Gospel, and Glory, the three pillars that this conference,

annual conference, is built upon.

So we hope that you can attend that conference.

We have a Christian in Carlisle, Pennsylvania, who

wants to know if Aquila and Priscilla were huge

influences on you to not only begin hospitality in your own life, but also to write

this book.

Yes, I'll

tell

you

why,

and I

appreciate this listener bringing this up,

succeeded my husband's theological education.

And I talked to

them, without me usurping any of his authority.

Do you see what I'm saying?

So Priscilla, she's mentioned six or seven times, she's mentioned with

Aquila, or Aquila in the New Testament, she's mentioned, her name is mentioned before,

because

there

are two

people who are not just exactly lockstep.

Well, praise be to God.

And obviously, we should reiterate something that you said earlier, just because you had this

theory about Priscilla does not mean that you do not believe in male headship in the

church and home, complementarianism, as it is called, where

equal before Christ, but different roles, correct?

Yeah, that's...

And I don't know if it was your comment about being inspired

by William Barclay that summoned this question all the way from Scotland.

We have a listener in Kinross, Scotland, Murray, who

says, would you say that the move away from church meetings in homes

to public buildings has encouraged us to think less of using our homes more naturally as

a means for evangelizing the lost and encouraging the saved?

And he has a side comment.

By the way, many years ago, I heard Dick Kaufman minister on hospitality

evangelism, and the message you are bringing is convicting me just as much

as I was back then.

Oh, all about the...

Yes, he says, would you say that the move away from churches meeting in homes to public buildings,

obviously, in the New Testament era, the predominant way that Christians

gathered for their weekly worship was in homes.

And of course, Paul did preach in synagogues and things like that, but it was mainly in homes where people gathered.

And he was wondering if the move from that to church buildings has encouraged us to

think less of using our homes more naturally as a means for evangelizing the lost

and encouraging the saved.

This may come as a surprise to you, but I'm a Christian, and going to church is

some place where I can kind of hide.

In fact, our preacher once described me to a visitor when I was out of town as the woman walking around

trying to be invisible.

And kind of

get lost, and I think the

individuality,

see the church as the individual you're part of.

As your listener aptly observed, mentioned

earlier, Chris, sometimes people can come into a church, and this has happened to me visiting churches,

sit through the entire service and not a single human being say a word to you, much less invite you over to

eat.

And so I think that is a disadvantage of large corporate...

Give the option for people to meet in

small group Bible studies.

And by the way, ladies and gentlemen, if you hear something that sounds like gunfire or

static in the background, we are in the middle of an enormous thunderstorm

right now here in Carlisle, Pennsylvania, so hopefully we don't lose power before the end

of the program.

But Murray in Kinross, Scotland, thank you so much with the, not only the great question, but the wonderful

encouraging comment to Latane.

And I know that we typically have a rule about not sending books overseas

because of the shipping costs, but we're going to make an exception with you, Murray, and we're going to

have that book sent out to you as soon as possible.

And that book, again, is Latane C. Scott's new book, The Heart Store Hospitality in the

Bible.

When I say new book, a new edition of it that is now hot off the press.

And we do have a listener.

We have Robert in White Plains, New York, who says, going back to

your original discussion on poetry, you were mentioning that modern

poetry does not include rhymes as it used to be

known for.

But I was a bit puzzled by that, since one of the most popular and prevalent

forms of poetry in our day and age in the 21st century is rap music,

and that is completely built upon rhymes.

Do you have any comment about that?

That's very interesting insight.

And I happen to, the only thing that I hate, I despise with a passion about

rap music is the very wicked

attachment to the personification of arrogance that is very often

accompanied by rap.

The thick gold chains and the attitude of pride and arrogance and haughtiness.

And of course, you have the, in many rap songs for secular rap artists,

you have very vulgar language being used and misogyny.

And it's amazing how many women love these groups when they are really in the lyrics of these songs being treated like

dirt.

But other than that, there are, as you know, Latane, many Christians who have adopted rap as a

form of singing and even evangelizing messages from the gospel, from

the word of God.

Although I don't personally believe it belongs in a worship service, I have no

problem with a Christian who behaves in a decent and respectful manner,

who is devoid of the arrogant personification in his singing and

performing.

Because it's really, when it boils down to it, it is really just rhyming.

So I don't know how somebody could say it innately is sinful to incorporate the gospel into that

when it really is just rhyming, sometimes set to music.

What is your opinion on that?

Well, one of the things that I said, and I so appreciate the concept,

one of the things that I see is ignored by Christians,

and since it is a song that includes rap, your listener

is also listening to the ear.

Put with music, it's more poetry,

if they were the direction of

modern poetry as an art.

My son, who is a godly, good Christian man, loves rap.

Yeah, and you can't really pigeonhole rap either, because although most of

the music that I have personally heard that is under that umbrella I would view as garbage,

but on occasion I have heard quite articulate, and I would even say

brilliant Christians who are very steeped in biblical

theology and who really very artfully have

created rap songs that are really, in essence, poetry,

because very often they don't even have music behind it.

And I find it hard to find fault with people like that,

especially if they do not, as I keep repeating, have the baggage of arrogance

and have the glorification of violent and greedy and

sexually perverse or loose people, which even

sometimes Christian rappers adopt the whole imagery when they are... just like

Christian rock groups have done in a different way.

But anyway, I want to make sure that you have a good five minutes of

time to really unburden your heart and leave our listeners with what you most want etched in their

hearts and minds today before they leave the program.

Well, I'd like to say something of which you've been kind enough to let me talk about.

One is that The Heart Store is studies in...

And I think people will learn things they never knew before.

For instance, there are verses in the Bible that we just pass right over, don't even think about.

One of those, Peter Stade

was extraordinary.

So I'm going to invite him and for Peter to explain why that's

the leader's idea.

It's okay with you, Chris, if we have the time.

I'd like to read one more poem from my...

Absolutely.

...my Passion Power Proxy release.

And it's a little bit longer poem, so it'll probably take us pretty near to the end.

I wondered what it was like for the two men, Joseph of Arimathea and Nicodemus,

the body of Christ.

So I will read the scripture and then the poem and then the devotional thought.

Scripture is John 19, 38 -39.

Later, Joseph, the body of Jesus.

Now, Joseph was the disciple of Jesus, but secretly because he feared the Jewish leaders.

With Pilate's permission, he came and took the body away.

He was accompanied by Nicodemus, the man who had earlier visited Jesus at night.

Nicodemus brought

cold heat.

The workmen's wires, they break through,

should shield us from what we see here.

The candle whack.

Nakedness we wash and cover first.

To give the modesty, the audience denies.

We

dampen vestiges.

One of the winding cloths rolls below the edges.

We reel it

in and

wrap

it

in the water.

Yes, we do.

We actually have just two minutes.

And that was beautiful and powerful.

That true friendship means standing by the blind and even in the final

stage of death.

Even though the lifeless body of Jesus could no longer bless and heal, his

friends treated it with respect, preparing it

for us and

leaving those grave clothes behind.

Well, thank you for sharing it.

And I just want to remind our listeners that Latayne C. Scott's

website is very easy to remember.

It's just her name, latayne .com.

L -A -T -A -Y -N -E dot com.

And I don't know anybody else on the planet with that name.

Perhaps you do.

But yes, I do.

Okay, and go to latayne .com.

I want to thank all of our listeners.

In fact, I just got an email from Abigail's

grandma who says, Abigail is so excited to receive her books.

She's really a sweet girl being homeschooled by her mom along with her two younger brothers.

Abigail is daughter of Caleb, pastor of a Presbyterian bilingual church.

They do a lot of fellowship in their home for their church.

And I believe the hospitality book will speak to them all.

Also giving them the boundaries Dr. Scott spoke of.

I'm really appreciating this interview with you and Dr. Scott and learning much.

And I know it will encourage Abigail in her writing.

And she is becoming a voracious reader and has a desire to write.

Well, anyway, I want to thank everybody for listening.

And I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior than you

are a sinner.