Jehovah's Witness vs. Christian Pastor

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Like I was telling Chris, we're not here to recruit people to be your witnesses, we're more important about people getting to the Bible.

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Getting to the Bible. You can make your own life, but getting to the Bible, the Bible will help you find a way. Which Bible? Well, we support, we have our own

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New Testament, but we support the King James. James. I mean, we don't tell people to change the

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Bible, because Genesis 1 and 1 is the same. You might say the Lord spoke to the Lord, you might say Job spoke to Jesus, but the content is still the same.

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John 3, 16 is still the same content. The difference might be, you might believe in the Trinity, I might believe in the

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Father and the Son is different. But if you look at the content, it's basically 90 % the same. So we never tell anybody, you've got to change the

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Bible. Because when I first started studying, I was using the New International Version Bible. You know? So, and we taught the

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New World Translation. We tell people, it's translating, not changing. In other words, it just took a lot of beads and dials for the

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King James. And we made it a simple language. But the message is always the same. So we don't, we tell people to get into the

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Bible. If you get a King James Bible, fine. New International Version, fine. So you would accept the King James? If I was studying with you and you wanted a

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King James Bible, I would definitely accept that. So you don't think there's any real differences between the King... The biggest difference is how we see

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God. Because the King James says the Lord spoke to the Lord. Capital Lord, L -O -R -D. But when they did the research, they found that with capital

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L -O -R -D, because in King James in Psalm 83, 18, it does say Jehovah. In King James.

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That's an old English tetragrammaton. Yeah. So, now

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I'm not the person who did it, so I'm trying to be clear. When the brothers of the Jehovah's Witnesses, way back in the 1900s, started looking at research and what was the right words, whenever they saw the capital

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L -O -R -D, in small L -O -R -D they put Jehovah's name in the capital L -O -R -D, and in small L -O -R -D they put Jesus.

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So that's in the new translation. We didn't change the verbiage to get there. Okay. But they put the

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L -O -R -D, and then in the new translation, they took out a lot of beads and dials because that seemed to be confusing. So, but I say the

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King James, because we started to have King James Bible. And we said, what does it say in your Bible? In fact, when Chris did his Bible, it said a lot of what my

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Bible said. I'm not so sure what Bible Chris has in his phone. I'm assuming it's King James. I don't know what Bible he has in there.

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So we would never, let's say if I was to study, we'd say, oh, you've got to put it in King James Bible. You've got to put it in my Bible. No. It's God's Word.

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But we don't want to get into a debate about, you know, if you want to be able to train, I believe in one God, we can do that. We can still get out of the

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Bible. But we're not trying to change you. Can I ask you a question? I've had friends,

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Jehovah's Witnesses, good relationships for many, many years. One of the things I found interesting was the

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New World Translations, some of the additions the New World Translations has made in terms of like the person of Christ.

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So, for example, I would, we would believe as Christians historically that Jesus is eternal

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God and he created everything in existence. But my Jehovah's Witnesses friends believe that Jesus is not the eternal

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God and that he didn't create everything in existence. And the

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New World Translations seems to add words to the text to change some of that.

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If you read in Galatians 1 .15, it says Jesus is the, how to put it?

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Firstborn of all creation. So we believe that Jesus, Jehovah created Jesus first.

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Yeah. And then through Jesus, everything has been created. So it's interesting. That's actually an amazing text. That's what we look at.

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Yeah, so Colossians 1 .15, I think it is. Yeah, so 15 says it's

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Christ. Yeah, we have, in whom we have redemption through freeing us of sins. So this is the thing I've always been curious about.

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He's the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. The word there, firstborn, is prototikos.

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It doesn't mean first created. It means preeminent one over all things. For by him all things were created.

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Jesus, all things were created in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, thrones, dominions, rulers, or authorities.

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All things were created through him and for him. But it's interesting that, do you have a New World Translation? Yep. In the

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New World Translation it says all other things. Which actually isn't in the Greek text.

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See, I'm not an expert, I wouldn't know. So I guess that's one of the things we're curious about as Christian ministers is because you made a stellar point.

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You said Satan will always take things and make it look like the truth, just enough truth, and then spin it and twist it to deceive you.

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And so I think that would be one of our concerns is who is Jesus? Who is he? And you know, like Mormons, you're here, you probably run into Mormons all the time, right?

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They believe different than you and I, both. They believe that Jesus is Lucifer's brother, one

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God among many gods. You can become a God one day, just like Jesus, just like the Father. Yeah, three different levels of heaven.

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Oh, interesting. Yeah, so they believe that you have to work to become a

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God one day. But so what's interesting is that in the first century, the

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Apostle Paul warned the early church in 2 Corinthians 11, he was worried about them that they would actually believe in another

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Jesus, a different gospel. And so, because I'm always curious, Jehovah's Witnesses, you guys are so passionate, you're zealous, you're just sweet, sweet people.

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But I think that when we talk about the Jesus we believe in, we believe in one God, eternally existing as three eternal persons.

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Jesus existed forever ago, and he created everything. But it's interesting because the

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Watchtower adds words, say, to a text like Colossians, where the text says

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Jesus created all things. The Watchtower says he created all other things. Outside of himself.

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Yeah, all other things. So let me ask you something, when he died, who resurrected him? He says, you destroy this temple to the

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Jews, and he says in three days I will raise it up again. Uh -huh, but can a dead man resurrect himself?

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Well, Jesus said that he did. Well, but what does it say that he resurrected himself? He said, I will raise myself up.

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Yeah, you make a good point. I will raise myself up. And see, what I've found, especially if you believe in the

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Trinity, you believe in three in one. Yes, sir. And what I found is that very rarely do we ever convince anybody not to be a

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Trinitarian. And very rarely do you convince us not to be one. What I like to talk about...

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You believe in one God, one person. And I believe the Holy Spirit is not a living entity. I don't see any places that the

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Holy Spirit is not a living entity. Okay, this will help me then. Do you believe that Jesus is a

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God? He is a God, but he's the Almighty God. There's only one Almighty God. The Bible says Job is the Almighty God.

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There's a difference. Really? I can't find it right now, but I can find it.

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It says there are many gods, but there's only one Almighty God. Interesting. You know, in Revelation, it calls

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Jesus the Almighty God. I'm not sure. In the book of Revelation, it talks about Jesus, who's the

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Almighty God. When he says, I'm talking to the Father, what is he talking about? He's talking to the Father. So, is that another person?

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Another person, yes. But he's the same person as he's talking to? No, yeah, and that's actually a powerful thing. That's where I get confused. Is he talking to himself?

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Well, that's interesting because, you know, I have a lot of friends who are Mormons. We have a lot of Mormons in Phoenix. I don't know if you know that.

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I mean, a lot. I've never heard about him. My Mormon and Jehovah's Witness friends seem to believe that Christians believe in modalism.

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What's that mean? Modalism was one of the first heresies rejected by the Christians in the second century of the church, and that's the idea that God sort of exists in modes, right?

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He's one God, one person, and sometimes he's the Father. And then he takes off that mask, and now he's the

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Son. And he takes off that mask, and he's the Spirit. So, like, my Mormon friends will say,

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Jeff, who's Jesus talking to in the Garden of Gethsemane? And I'll say, well, Jesus is talking to the Father, the one he's been in an eternal relationship with from all eternity.

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And they'll say, well, he's not talking to himself? And Christians have never believed that Jesus is the Father. We believe that there are three eternal, co -equal persons,

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Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. One of the powerful texts that says that is John chapter 1. In the beginning was the

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Word. He was always there. And the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

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How about John 1 .14? It says that he is the Son of God. John 1 .14

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says, And the Word, God, became flesh and dwelt among us. But I think John 1 .18

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might be what you're pointing to, where it says he's the only begotten

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God. Now, the word there, only begotten, means, in the Greek, it's monogenes theos.

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And it means the unique and one -of -a -kind God, who is in the bosom of the Father. Does it also mean created?

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No, no, no. The word monogenes theos doesn't mean created. It means unique and one -of -a -kind.

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So it says, The unique and one -of -a -kind God, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has made the

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Father known. So, it's interesting, because in that text, John 1, it says Jesus always existed from all eternity with the

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Father. It's internal fellowship with the Father. And then he says, And he was God.

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But an interesting thing is, in the Watchtower's translation, it says he was a God. Which, no

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Greek scholar in the world would translate it as a God. In the

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Greek, it's really, really powerful. In Archaea and Hologos, forever ago, Jesus was already there.

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And he was, toward the Father, an intimate relationship with the Father. And, means,

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And God was the Word. The Word was God. So, it's just one of those instances where we love our

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Jehovah's Witnesses friends, where it seems like we believe in two different Christs. Right? And I think you'd agree with that.

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We believe in different... I mean, I'm not really that versed in the

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Trinitarian thought, we believe there's a Father, there's a Son, and there's a Holy Spirit. We don't believe there's three in one.

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Three persons, one God. There are three different... I haven't found anything that says the Holy Spirit or Hologos is a living entity in itself.

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I haven't seen that myself. Have you read John 14? I probably have, but I can't read that. Where Jesus says...

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Your helper will come. Yeah, he says, The Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will guide you into all truth.

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He will convict the world of sin and righteousness. So Jesus calls the Holy Spirit a he. What about in Genesis?

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It says the act of force. What is the act of force in Genesis 1 -2? No, it doesn't say act of force. It says the Spirit was hovering over the face of the waters.

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So what is the Spirit? The Spirit of God is the Spirit of God. So is that a living entity? Oh, he's a living person, a living being.

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So there's a being hovering over God. So the Bible teaches that there's only one

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God. We agree with that, right? And yet the Bible calls the Father God. It calls the

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Son God. It calls the Holy Spirit God. And yet it always makes a distinction between the three persons.

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It never says the Father is Jesus. It doesn't say the Holy Spirit is God. Well, there's numerous places. I would say the one you pointed to in Genesis 1 shows the

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Holy Spirit was actively involved in creation. And then another example is, say, you know this one when Peter was with Ananias and Sapphira, and he said, you know, why have you lied?

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He says, when you lied to the Spirit of God, you didn't lie to men but to God. And the

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Holy Spirit of God talks to Paul but Paul, an active force, can't speak.

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And the Holy Spirit of God tells Paul where to go. Jesus says, he will convict the world of sin and righteousness.

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He will be in you. He will guide you into all truth. So Jesus referred to the Holy Spirit as a he, as a him.

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But every time Jesus is talking to the Father, he's talking about the world of the Father. Yeah, he's talking about the Father. But it's the same person.

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No, no, no. That's the interesting thing is that Christians have never taught that. Well, I've had Christians tell me that.

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Yeah, you probably, yeah. It's unfortunate. I agree with you. I've had people who...

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I think that's where Claudia and Jeff and we can talk all day. This is where I get confused with many different religions.

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Joe Winters is right or wrong. I'm not saying we're all right. I'm basically the same. If you go to talk to Joe Winters in Indies, we may have a different, but we're not going to have different doctrine.

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So if we're wrong, we're wrong, worldwide. Right. Okay, you know what I'm saying? We're wrong worldwide, right. Right. But when

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I talk to many different religions, including Trinity, I get so many different variations. Well, it's interesting you bring that up because historically...

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I don't know which one is... Well... If I was... Let's say I was with Joe Winters.

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Yeah. You guys meet me, and you give me just what you told me. Yeah. Oh, that sounds real great. Then I go to Kekaha, and he says, oh, no, they were wrong.

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They're not the right Trinitarians. Let me tell you, this Trinitarian philosophy. Okay, now there's two. Now go to Kilauea.

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Both those two are wrong. We got this other Trinitarian. Well, what if I said this to you? That's confusing. It is. It is. What if I said to you,

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I'm a Jehovah's Witness, and I don't believe that Jesus is Michael the Archangel? Then you're not

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Joe Winters. Thank you. So when someone says they're Trinitarian, but they deny what the Bible teaches about the

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Trinity and what the church historically has taught about the Trinity, they're not Trinitarians. And Trinitarian comes in at the 4th century, right?

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No. So for 300 years, there was no Trinitarian philosophy. Oh, no, no, no. Oh, no. No, no, actually... From the beginning. From the very beginning of the church.

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As a matter of fact, in the 2nd century A .D., one of the first fights the Christians got into was against Sibelius, which was modalism, essentially.

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And they defined the Trinity. Sertullian defined the Trinity in the 2nd century, in 186 A .D.

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So long before Nicaea or anything. Nicaea was a fight because Arius of Alexandria was teaching...

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Actually, it's interesting. Arius of Alexandria was teaching what your church teaches, that Jesus was the first and greatest creation of God.

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So Arius of Alexandria came into the church teaching what your church teaches, and the Christians universally refuted him for what he was teaching.

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So Nicaea was an example of the first sort of instance of the Watchtower's belief that Jesus was created by the

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Father, and the Christian church came together and essentially cast him out as a heretic.

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And they were just supporting what the church had always been teaching. But good conversation to have, right?

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I'd love to chat with you again. Well, Chris has got my phone number. Okay, I'd love to. And your name again was what? Cedric. Cedric, you've been a pleasure, sir.