Predestination & Election (Part 2)

Predestination as Determining Beforehand

So, this will be part two of our study on the subject of predestination, and as I had said last time, the word predestinate, it means to what? To determine beforehand. So, we're going to pick up where we left off, looking at this article from the website gotquestions .org.

I'll comment as we go. I'll have a few more things to say and address some of the arguments for and against this view of predestination, so if you have any questions, I'm sure you will. If you need clarification, yeah, raise your hand, but if we could try to hold off to the end for questions because hopefully I'll answer some of your questions as we go, but let's jump right back into it.

The article says, just starting at the beginning, we only got through half of it. Romans 8, 29, and 30 tells us, for those God foreknew, he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

For those who he predestined, these he also called. Those he called, he also justified, and whom he justified, these he also glorified. So that's Romans 8, 29, and 30, and the other main passage is Ephesians 1, 5, and 11, which says God predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ in accordance with the good pleasure of his will, and in him, that is in Christ, we are chosen, right?

Christians are elect, and this is what a lot of people miss because you ask them, who are God's chosen people? And they say, oh, well, the Jews are God's chosen people. In the Old Testament, Israel was God's chosen, but who's God's chosen in the New Testament?

Christians are the elect. So in him, we were also chosen, Ephesians 1, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will. So those are the passages from Ephesians 1, Romans 8, and then there's the other two we looked at last week.

Election and Salvation by Grace

The article says, many people have a strong hostility to the doctrine of predestination. However, predestination is a biblical doctrine. The key is understanding what predestination means biblically. So the words translated predestined in the scripture referenced above are from the Greek word pororizo, which carries the meaning of determining beforehand or ordaining.

You've heard of God's foreordination or can also be rendered deciding ahead of time. So according to the article, predestination is God determining certain things to occur ahead of time. Now, does that mean that God predestines every single event in the history of the world?

Well, we talked about that. That's not what the Bible says. It's very specific what he predestined. Some believe that, and that's another story, but we're focusing on just what the scripture.

Says.

So God predestined that certain things would occur ahead of time. What did God determine ahead of time? According to the article, Romans 8, 29 and 30, God predetermined that certain individuals would be conformed to the likeness of his son and they would be called, justified, and then glorified.

And then here's the key statement. So listen up. According to gotquestions .org, predestination is the biblical doctrine that God in his sovereignty chooses certain individuals to be saved.

Okay.

Let me read that again. Predestination is the biblical doctrine that God in his sovereignty chooses certain individuals to be saved.

Who knew that?

When you hear predestination, that's what you think of. No, nobody?

Okay.

At least a couple. Now, if I can jump in here, you know, far be it for me to disagree with gotquestions .org. It's a very reliable website. So I don't want to split hairs here, but, because I know people kind of lump all this together under the banner of predestination, but this idea that God chooses certain people to be saved, technically, I think that's the doctrine of election, not predestination.

So God elects a people to be saved, and then he predestines the people whom he elected. So just a little point of clarification. So my understanding, remember last time I told you, you don't know where I stand?

And some of you probably do, but I didn't tell you where exactly I stood. Here's my understanding of predestination. Predestination is that the elect are kept secure in Christ. So predestination is basically eternal security.

People call it once saved, always saved. There's a little distinction between that and eternal security. But the fact that a true believer cannot lose his salvation, that is true because we have been predestined.

Like, it cannot not happen. We will be, we are justified, and we will be glorified. We will be conformed to the image of Christ. So to me, that's predestination. It is our security in Christ. The idea that God chooses some to be saved, again, technically, I think that's the doctrine of election.

But again, there's some already, you have some ideas that, wait a second, I'll hopefully address those. And if I don't, raise your hand towards the end. So in the first lesson, I didn't really come out and tell you where I stood, but that's where I stand.

Predestination basically is eternal security. John chapter 10, verses 27 and 30, or through 30, you can just make a note of this. Jesus said, my sheep hear my voice and I know them and they follow me and I give them eternal life and they shall never perish, neither shall anyone snatch them out of my hand.

My father who has given them to me is greater than all. No one is able to snatch them out of my father's hand. I and my father are one. Does it sound like you can lose your salvation based on those words?

No.

Why not? Because it's all been determined beforehand.

It's fixed.

True believers will be conformed to the image of Christ. True believers will be with God in heaven. You think of the word predestination, a destination is where you end up. True believers are going to end up where?

In heaven. It's been predetermined.

Okay.

So if you're saved, this should be just a glorious doctrine that I'm secure in Christ. But there are objections and I understand why people have objections along these lines of eternal security because we all know that not every Christian believes that.

You say, well, this is Morris Corner Church. We believe this forever. So everyone here believes that. Well, maybe. If somebody thinks you can lose your salvation, I don't know about it. They haven't told me that.

Maybe they know better than to tell me. I wouldn't freak out. You know, I just try to show you from the scripture. But here's the thing. I was brought up in this church and our former pastor was very strong and adamant about this.

Issue.

You could not lose your salvation. So I heard this just again and again and again and again. To be honest with you, though, I was never really 100 convinced. I never said anything, but I just wasn't convinced.

The reason is, yeah, there's a bunch of verses that sound like you can't lose your salvation. But then there's a whole bunch of other verses that, at least on the surface, do sound like you can lose it.

Here's the thing that settled it for me. Predestination. Once I understood this teaching of election and predestination, yeah, I'm 100 certain a true believer cannot lose their salvation. So again, predestination is at least the basis for our security in Christ.

It's a wonderful doctrine. So that's what I want to convince you of. It is a wonderful thing. Now, it's true if someone's, you know, a Methodist or a Pentecostal or something and they believe that salvation can be lost, they're not going to see it this way.

They're not going to like it as much or they're just going to see it totally different. That's just that's just the way it is. And we understand that. So churches have their differences. I don't think I need to tell you that churches disagree over predestination.

You probably knew that, I'm guessing. But yeah, it's our security in Christ. You know what makes this challenging, though? Saying that people cannot lose their salvation. What makes it challenging? Yeah, apostasy.

The fact that people do fall away. And at least on a human level, it appears, I'll say this much, it does look like sometimes.

That people do lose it.

I don't think they do. Our typical response is, well, if somebody truly falls away from the faith, what? Yeah, they were never saved to begin with. I would quote 1 John 2, 19. Another verse you can make a note of.

1 John 2, 19 says they went out from us, but they were not of us. For if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out that they might be made manifest that none of them were of us.

So these are people that were part of the church. They had a testimony. They were considered brothers. They had fellowship. Everyone thought they were saved. And then they just left the church and just turned their back on faith in Christ.

And yeah, it looks like people lose their salvation. But they don't. They were never saved to begin with. And that's what John is saying. They were never really one of us to begin with. OK, you know, there is another possibility.

Maybe somebody walks away, but they're not actually lost. They haven't totally committed apostasy. But they're so severely backslidden that it doesn't look like they're saved. But God might restore them.

There might be repentance and they might come back. So really, only God knows. And that's why we sort of leave that final call up to the Lord. But again, I'll say it one more time. Predestination is the basis for our security in Christ.

OK, so now that you know where I stand, let's just finish reading the article. The most common objection, and if you really have a burning question, raise your hand. OK, I don't want to tell you you can't.

So if you need to raise your hand, feel free. But the article says the most common objection to the doctrine of predestination or election, as it were, is that, well, it's not fair, right?

It's unfair.

And one response last week was, well, life's not fair. It's like, that's true. Hard to argue with that. But that's the most common thing. Well, that's not fair that God would choose one person and not another.

Because fairness, what's the word we hear a lot today?

Equity. Equity.

So everyone needs the same. So if somebody's making $100 ,000, it's not fair that this person's making 20. That's not equitable. We need to kind of use the powers of government to even everybody out. And that, of course, makes it worse.

But that's another story for another day. But they say predestination, election, it's not fair. Why would God choose certain individuals and not others? The article says we must remember that nobody deserves to be saved.

OK, let's repeat that again. Nobody deserves to be saved.

What is it?

Salvation is by what? What's the word? Begins with a G. Grace. It means it's unmerited favor. So no one deserves to be saved. We have all sinned, Romans 3 .23. And we are all worthy of eternal punishment.

It's death and then the second death, Romans 6 .23. As a result, God would be perfectly just in allowing all of us to die lost. However, God chooses to save some. He is not being unfair to those who are not chosen because they are receiving what they deserve.

They reject Christ, so they deserve to be lost because their decision was, no, Lord, I don't want you. And God is giving them what they want. Therefore, it's not a matter of being unfair. So God is choosing to be gracious to some.

OK, no one deserves anything from God. Therefore, no one can object if he does not receive anything from God. So some of you are thinking, yeah, that's right. That makes total sense. I agree. And others are like, this still doesn't really settle it for me.

Here's an illustration from the website. Let's say there's a man who randomly hands out money to five people in a crowd. I thought I thought about doing this. I should have just start handing out five dollar bills.

But I only hand out five dollar bills to half of you and the other half doesn't get any money. Well, the people that didn't get any money, you know, in a church, you're probably not going to complain.

But if you did this out in a crowd, people would say, wait, that's not fair. You gave the money to them, but not to me. Well, do they really have a right to be upset? No, they don't.

Why?

Because the man handing out money didn't owe anybody anything. So the fact that he wants to be gracious and give this to some and not others, that's his prerogative. So that's the idea. God, it's his choice and he can save some and give the others what they want, which is they don't want Christ in their life.

So in that sense, logically, there's nothing unfair about it. Again, that doesn't settle it for some people, but that's the argument. Okay, if God is choosing who is saved, this is one objection. If God is choosing who is saved, doesn't that undermine our free will to choose and believe in Christ, right?

So if God is choosing who is saved, doesn't that undermine our free will? Because that's the real objection when you sort of go through all these other illustrations and arguments. It's a matter of God, isn't he violating people's will or undermining free will?

What do you think?

Yes.

But don't you think God chooses us because he knows our heart?

He knows your heart, yeah. That would be what is called the foreknowledge view of elections. So basically, the argument is God looks down the corridors of time before he has created anything, and he foreknows that certain people will trust in Christ.

And to those people, he elects those people because he knows that they're going to make the right choice. It's based on you. But R .C. Sproul, a well-known theologian of the 20th century, he said that view doesn't explain the doctrine of election.

He says that fundamentally denies the doctrine of election. Because election, if you read it again and again, a predestination, it's according to the counsel of whose will? God's. So God is not making the choice based on what he knows that you're going to do.

It's based on something within him. But I would say the majority of people do believe that. And that is one viewpoint that, yes, God just foreknows that you're going to believe. So he elects you because of his foreknowledge.

I'm not sure I agree with that, but it is it is a very common view, and it could be.

The correct view.

OK, so the Bible says back to the article, the Bible says we all have a choice and all who believe in Jesus Christ will be saved. Do we agree with that? Everyone has a choice to make. Everyone who believes in Christ will be saved.

OK, so far, so good. And then he lists a few verses, John 3, 16, Romans 10, 9 and 10 says the Bible never describes God rejecting anyone who believes in him or turning away anyone who is seeking him. Do we agree with that?

OK, the truths of God's sovereign predestination and also man's responsibility are not mutually exclusive. Somehow in the mystery of God, predestination works hand in hand with a person being drawn to God.

And that's that verse, John 6, 44, where Jesus says no man can come to me unless the father who sent me draws him and I will raise him up at the last day. So man's choice and God's sovereignty in that call, they seem like they're at odds with one another, but they're not, according to the article.

So God predestines who will be saved and we must choose Christ in order to be saved. Does that seem like a contradiction? Well, in some people's mind, yeah, that the two are at odds. OK, but the article says both are true.

And I do believe that both are true. God predestines. Yep, we've read the verses. He does do that. Man has a choice. Both are true. But this is another area where people struggle because in our finite minds, we can't really reconcile the two.

You can say, well, I believe this. But once someone starts objecting and asking questions, you know, that is a good point. And then, yeah, it starts to get muddy. But that's based on our limited understanding.

You know, I'm not God. God has all of this sorted out. I don't. I think I understand it to the best of my ability. But yeah, I can't answer every question. And here's the argument the article makes. I like this.

They say even the Apostle Paul didn't understand. Of course, I mentioned last week that Paul is the preeminent teacher on the subject of predestination. I said all of the verses, the six times the word is mentioned, it's all the Apostle Paul.

And technically, I was wrong because Acts 428 was written by Luke. But Luke was Paul's companion. And I say, you probably learned it from Paul. So it's close enough. But OK, I will admit I was wrong. It's not all written by Paul.

But they say Paul didn't understand it because in Romans 1133, after going through all of this, here's what Paul says. Oh, the depths of the riches, both of the wisdom and knowledge of God. How unsearchable are his judgments and his ways past finding out the new living translation has Paul saying this.

How impossible is it for us to understand God's decisions and his ways? So they're saying Paul taught it, but even Paul didn't fully understand it. I think that's probably true. Just like in the Old Testament, the prophets, they gave their prophecy.

Ever read Ezekiel? And you're like, what in the world is going on? Did Ezekiel have it all sorted out? I highly doubt it. He just wrote what God had him right. It's the way it is. So we can't understand how God's sovereignty meshes with human responsibility.

How can God elect and predestinate? But man still has a choice. I don't know. How are the two both true? I don't know, but I know they are because that's what the Bible teaches. Pastor John MacArthur explains it this way.

To me, this is helpful. I don't know if this will help you at all, but to illustrate this, John MacArthur asked the question. He said, yeah, the two seem to be at odds, but they're both true. How can that be?

He said, well, consider this question. Who wrote the Bible? Who wrote the Bible? God, it's the word of God, but didn't men write it? But yeah, but it's the word of God. Yet it was written by men. So who wrote the Bible?

Well, men did technically write it, but it's also the word of God.

They were inspired.

So it's both right. It's both. Another question he brings up. Who lives your Christian life? Is it you or is it the Holy Spirit within you? Well, it's it's both. And this is a great one. The person of Christ.

Is Christ God or is he man? He's the God man. Well, how can he be both? How can he be truly man and at the same time truly God? Well, who understands the Trinity? See, there's a lot of things in the Bible we don't understand, but we're told.

How did God create the entire universe and everything in it out of nothing? Just by speaking. Do you understand that? No, but you believe it because that's what God's word said. So I think it's the same thing with predestination.

I can't reconcile everything, but I believe it. You know, I don't understand calculus. That doesn't make it false. So as long as we can allow for a little bit of mystery and be humble enough to say, hey, I don't totally get it all.

We should be OK.

Calvinism, Arminianism, and the Limits of Human Understanding

What we don't want to do is push things to the extreme. This is the common response. Well, I don't know how common it is. I hear these people exist. I know they're on the Internet. I've never actually met someone in person, but there's kind of two groups.

There's one group, right? There's the two viewpoints, the Calvinist and the Arminian, right? The Calvinist believe in the sovereignty of God. The Arminians emphasize free will. Well, then there's the extreme group, and you can be a Christian and be either Calvinist or Arminian.

If you're Arminian, you're wrong, but you can still be a Christian. But there's an extreme group called the Hyper-Calvinist. Who's heard of Hyper-Calvinism? Yeah, this is the idea. And again, I've never met anyone like this, but they're online.

Basically, they say that man has no choice at all. You're like a puppet on a string. You're like a pre-programmed robot. So you have no will. Anything you do, God made you do it. You have no will at all.

Like, who are these people? I don't know. But like I said, supposedly they exist. Well, that's totally false. So anything that happens in the world, God did it. Well, you know, in his providence, and as he knows it's going to happen, he could stop.

It.

There's a little truth in every lie, I suppose. But no, Hyper-Calvinism is wrong. You're pushing it too far, right? But then on the other extreme, and they're not called Hyper-Arminians, like I've never heard that term.

But there are people that just say, I don't believe in predestination. Election, that's junk. I don't believe in that stuff. Well, it's in the Bible. How can you not believe? But that's what some people do.

Or they emphasize man's will so much that in their mind, God is powerless. So in their system, man is the one who's sovereign. Man is in control. God is not in control of history. So both, you're taking it too far.

Both are false doctrines. So in the end, God is in control, but man has a choice. Both are true. And we talked about this last week. Without God's grace, man is powerless to choose Christ. I think this is really the, this is where it all starts.

What you decide on this will determine which direction you go. Does man have a choice?

Yes.

Man has a choice. Can man choose to believe in God on his own?

No.

Can man choose Christ with the grace of God? Yes. But is it a cooperative effort? You know, God does 50%. Man does 50%. If you say it's a cooperative effort, you go in the Armenian direction. If you say no, salvation is all of the Lord.

And God gave me the faith. He changed my heart. That's the Calvinist direction. And if somebody doesn't want to take either label, that's totally fine too. But you are going to be more on one side or the other.

It's just kind of unavoidable. Let's go back to that verse, John 6. Let's just turn there because I want you to see it. Any questions so far? I can take one question. Yeah, go for it.

All right.

Um, is it possible that the determination beforehand means before you die? So he determines it before you die? Because I'm thinking to the book of Jonah and the fact that the city was saved by then, you know, crumbling himself before God.

So he changed his mind.

Okay.

So is it possible that the determining beforehand is before you die and not before the foundation.

Of the world?

I don't think so. Because if you look at the context of these verses, it seems pretty clear, especially Ephesians 1. It was before the foundation of the world that God chose and predestined. So, you know, we tend to think, well, if it's like this, then this makes sense for all these verses.

But then you're going to have problems with other verses. So I don't think so. And I've never heard anyone make that argument. I guess it doesn't mean it's impossible, but look at John 6, 44. Jesus says, no one may come to me unless the father sent me draw sin.

Is that what it says?

I know I brought this up last week, but I'm going to do it again. Because again, this is really crucial. This verse, no one, what?

What's the word?

Can, right? This is something you learned in elementary school, right? When you ask the teacher, can I go to the bathroom? And they say, well, I'm sure you can, or yeah, I don't know. Can you? The real question is what?

May I go to the bathroom? So the word can deals with or addresses your ability to do something. So Jesus is saying, no one can come to me. No one has the ability to come to me unless the father who sent me draws him.

And I will raise him up at the last day and notice that all who are drawn are what? They're raised up. So all that God draws, we would say are saved.

Okay.

And just skip ahead to verse 65. And you know, when Jesus repeats something, he's doing it for emphasis. Like this is important. He wants people to know this. Look at John 6, 65. And he said, therefore, I have said to you that no one, what?

No one can come to me unless it has been granted to him by the father. I would argue that's election and predestination.

That's the granting.

So if you have a problem with this doctrine, I mean, this is just a really hard verse to get around. No one is able to do it. So that's what Jesus says in John 6, and he says it twice. So nobody has the ability to come to him unless the father draws them and all whom the father draws are saved.

They're raised up at the last day. So this, along with predestination, is our security in Christ. I could never be an Arminian because I could never believe that a person loses their salvation.

To me.

If they were logical, if they were consistent, they would have to believe in salvation by.

Works.

Now, in fairness, they don't. They say, no, it's by grace. It's through faith. It's not by works. But really, you're saying it's based on what you do. So I just could never take that Arminian position.

But at the same time, I think we need to give people a little grace in talking about this subject because it is the most complicated, like the most deep subject in theology. So if somebody sees it different, hey, that's okay.

Here's an online viewer. They sent in this question. They asked, what about those verses that say whosoever believes, right? The whosoever will versus who is thinking of that? You're just dying to raise your hand and ask that question.

What about the whosoever will passages? I mean, this is a good question, but I think it's important to point out the term whosoever. You know, it sounds like anybody, you know, whosoever believes.

Come on, right?

That's the way it sounds.

Whoever, whosoever.

That word is only used in the King James Version for what it's worth. Whosoever is only found in the King James Version. What's being said?

Whoever.

Okay.

Whoever believes John 3, 16, whoever believes is saved. Whoever believes they, they won't perish. Well, everybody agrees with that, right? So I think the argument, I assume the argument is that the word whosoever, it makes it sound like that it's put out there for anyone and everyone is the gospel put out there for anyone and everyone.

Yeah.

I mean, that's the way we preach it. Again, the hyper Calvinist says you only preach the gospel to the elect. But again, I've never met anyone. Like, how do you even do that? You don't know who's elected, who isn't.

So yes, you preach the gospel to every creature as Jesus said. So whosoever, it sounds like it's for everyone and anyone. And I guess the gospel call is for anyone, but at the same time, it's still God who made that choice in eternity past.

Okay.

So what is being said in those verses? Whoever believes will be saved. See, that's true. No matter which side you're on, whoever wants to come, whoever has the desire, let them.

Come.

Look at a Revelation 22. Let's turn there. This is one of those whosoever will versus. Time is just flying by with this subject.

Can I ask a quick question?

Yes.

So it says that people can only come to Jesus if God allows it.

Yeah.

Is the idea that that's when Jesus's judgment would kick in?

No, the judgment isn't until somebody dies or the final judgment at the end of time. As long as somebody has breath in them, as far as I know, they have a chance. And maybe I'm not addressing your question, but as long as someone's alive, they have opportunity as far as I know.

But God can say things like this because he already knows the end from the beginning.

So I'm thinking of when Jesus says, like, I will say I never knew you, right?

Like that.

Yeah, that that will happen on the last day. That'll happen way in the future.

Okay.

Okay.

All right.

Yes, Janet.

What about the God built made all of us in his image? And I believe that he put the desire in our hearts to know him. It's we just have the privilege of accepting or denying because he doesn't want us to.

Be robots.

He wants us to love him because he loved us first.

Yeah.

Yeah, I think that's probably the most powerful argument for. Well, I don't know if it's against predestination because you still have to have some view of predestination, but the idea that God gave man a choice because of man didn't have a choice.

Then the love would be because God forced you into it and it wouldn't truly be loved. So the fact that you have a choice and you choose to love God, then the love is real. But again, I don't think I get that, but I don't think that contradicts the doctor.

Predestination.

I don't see how it can contradict. Again, that's one of those things that I don't have all straightened out in my mind.

But I believe that God brought me here.

Yeah. Yes.

Amen.

All right.

Revelation 22, 17. And it says, and the spirit and the bride say, what come and let him who hears say, come, let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely. So I think the point is we preach the gospel to everyone and we say, whoever wants to believe, whoever wants to come, let them come.

But that's not a contradiction. You know, it's not like John is contradicting Paul. So for us, salvation is open to everyone. That's how we preach it. But God already knows who is elect and who isn't.

We don't. So the general call of the gospel goes out into all the world. It's not just for the Jews, but the effectual call where God, the Holy Spirit changes the person's heart to where they believe that call that Jesus says, no one can come unless the father draws on that drawing.

That call is only for the elect. And if you want to disagree with that, that's fine. But that's my understanding. So the whosoever will passages, good question. And how it all fits together. I don't know that I'll ever have the perfect answer or at least an answer that will satisfy, probably not the perfect answer, but okay.

So whosoever will passages, we've got that. God changes people's hearts so that they will believe God does not. This is an important point. God does not force anyone to not believe, right? There, there is no, this is how election.

I went to a ordination, an ordination one time, the questioning before the actual ordination where a pastor stands up and he asks, he's asked questions for two or three hours and he has to give them all.

And somebody asked, what about this issue of Calvinism and Arminianism? And he said, I don't believe God drag some people to heaven, kicking and screaming. While at the same time, he's stiff arming other people, not allowing them to enter when they desperately want to be there.