Apologetics Live: Reviewing The New Evangelicals Debate on Christian Nationalism

Debate Recap and Projection in Public Life

This you said statements either true or false. I gave you a statement and you said it doesn't apply.

To that. It's not only to that statements would be either true or false.

So is it true that I'm talking to you? Is it true? That is true statement. I'm talking to you. Is that true? Yes. Okay. Is it true that babies exist?

Well, I mean how.

Babies exist. Babies exist. Is that true or is it not the case that it's true?

I mean if you want to go down the you know, if you won't be very strict about it, I would be skeptical about okay.

We're done talking.

Show Introduction and How to Join the Discussion

We are live apologetics live here to answer your most challenging questions about God and the Bible. We're here to teach and to illustrate to instruct on how to do apologetics. So if you have any difficult questions or any questions at all, in fact, you can go to apologetics live .com and You can just scroll down to the stream yard.

That's the duck icon. Click on that join the discussion if you're on YouTube. That's usually I think YouTube and X will allow us to see your comments. So you can put stuff there if you're there. We'll be able to see your comments, which would be so nice and we will get those questions as well and so tonight we're going to be talking about a Debate that happened on someone else's channel and the debate was titled does Christian nationalism help society?

It was by dead man walking my friend Greg Moore. Well, we'll see if he admits that we're friends, but you know, I call him a friend. But hey, I live in fantasyland.

But.

He had a debate and With a guy Tim Whitaker and Kenning Kenton and I don't remember Kenton's last name. But he's here so he could tell us and it was a very interesting debate. The link is in the show notes.

Even if you look on the video, so I encourage people to look at the video before so you have you know. So, you know we are what we're talking about. So if we don't get all the links to play in but We're gonna try to go through and discuss that because I think there's a lot to learn.

It was really I should have titled this Christian nationalism debate with a progressive Christian. Some of you remember when we had the other progressive Christian that came in Anthony. Well, we have another progressive Christian I don't know if he's gonna come in Tim Tim Whitaker.

The weird thing with both of these young guys is both of them were in two different churches that I was part of.

I don't know what it is that the churches.

I've been part of go you get some guy that goes progressive. I don't know. It's probably my fault. Greg will blame me. Let me bring in my co-host here. Mr. A .M. Brewster one of the speakers at striving for eternity, sir.

Welcome. Oh, I see you got you got your new book there. Look at I don't have the cool technology that you have. So I'm just holding it. Yeah, you got to hold it there the whole time. Why don't we?

The whole time quit, you know, you got to quit. Quit smoking quit drinking quit cussing. Now this book is actually quit. How to stop family strife for good.

I'm gonna interrupt for a second just for timing sake because I want this just popped in. Tim Whitaker says. Andrew, are you gonna tell people I went to your church? I Already did. Thank you.

In fact, Andrew blamed himself for the whole situation. It's a yeah, it's a it's the book I just wrote called quit how to stop family strife for good and it's it's all about really Stopping the strife, but it's actually it's actually a facade.

It's a don't tell everyone this I don't say this on every interview show. So if you people are listening to it here, you're you get the inside scoop. Really what this is is it does appeal to people who have a lot of family strife a lot of family conflict.

But the only way to really be able to deal with any sins and any big issues in the family is to Release through discipleship. It's through your family coming to know the Lord and growing in him and that's really what this book is about and then specifically focuses in on the elements of Strife so we talked about the consequences of strife the creators the causes and then eventually we talked about the cure for strife.

But I'm not gonna hold it here the whole time and it doesn't look as.

Hey calculus man says a very seeker. Sensitive title. Where can folks get that?

Well, you can go to ever my ministries calm. And you can see links there. If you are on the ever mind app you can get it in there as a digital version. That's exclusively on the ever mind app, but you can also order it on Amazon.

Just go to Amazon and put in quit and then my name am Brewster. Aaron Brewster or put in how to stop family strife. Quit and family strife. It'll all come up there in Amazon and you can order.

Ever mind ministries because there you get more money than Amazon. Let me bring. Maybe maybe not. I don't even know how that works anymore. Let me bring in Greg Moore from dead man walking, sir. How are you?

So folks don't know Greg Moore. If you don't listen to dead man walking I'll just say that I don't think. You need to be following and listening to every episode of dead man walking to get to heaven, but why take the chance.

Just saying.

Hey, I want to bring I'm gonna bring a very secret sensitive. Yeah.

Political Projection and the National Prayer Breakfast

So what we usually do is we start with an in the news section before we get into the main topic and I'm going to. I brought Greg in because I want to I want to in the news section here I'm gonna string these long.

He's a politician. So that'll be good too with some of these. Public servant, okay, so. And and these are all gonna tie together into. I think what'll be the theme for tonight a bit so first I wanted to talk about if you guys hadn't seen there was a a national prayer that they do after a president is.

You know, basically after they have the induction for a new president so that it's kind of a national prayer for the person who just became president. And what you had was a woman who Decided to take that opportunity.

Where it was supposed to be being respectful regardless of. I mean I don't care if that was Biden and someone did that I would still say it was very disrespectful. What? She did in in taking the time that it's supposed to be a Honoring of the person who is in the office to then just try to you know, rip them apart.

But she took that she took that opportunity. Which maybe many of you have seen that clip, but that's not the clip I actually want to talk about the clip. I want to talk about is what the clip where she explained why she did it.

She said that the reason she called him out in church is Because his presence there he was making a political statement and she was not going to stand. For someone making a political statement in the church.

Now I'm making a political statement. Okay. Thank you very much. So.

She's the one that made the political statement. He was there because he was just Installed this president and it was kind of like his responsibility to be there. But that's how that works.

That's how that works my like the three of us white dudes, right? I mean cuz you're you're Jewish. So obviously you're a white dude, too so the three of us white guys are very presence is triggering our very presence is racist and the people who us I Am NOT white.

It's very close to my skin though. But then the people who would hate on us the people who would yell and scream at us because our very presence is racist. They're they're not like. That's that is how it actually works.

That's right.

This is called projecting and I'm saying this because we're gonna see a theme here. What she's doing is projecting on to Donald Trump, which she actually did.

Right.

And like I said, I don't care who's there if if the if it is a national prayer breakfast for the president. You show respect to the office and the person the the second one is. You know is gonna be a similar thing.

I don't know. Really really really quick. Andrew. Can I just.

How about. How about respect honor and glory to Christ the King to God Almighty and put aside? Yes political ideology instead of using it as a soapbox. Actually being humbled before a holy God in prayer.

Well see and that's where I could agree with her argument to say when she's saying well We you know, the church is not the place to be making political statements. I might be able to agree with that to an extent.

You know, but if that's what you believe then you shouldn't do it. Right, right because she like he sat there. He didn't buy she's claiming by him sitting there. He's making a political statement. She's projecting her behavior onto him.

And then we have we had some pardons. I don't know if you you heard about these pardons that were Literally, and I predicted this I was telling people watch Monday morning, we're gonna see pardons. What I didn't expect is that he actually was doing pardons while Trump was speaking.

So that they were just last minute. He had no time he didn't know about it by the time that he got up to do his his speeches. So what are you talking about Biden last-minute part? I didn't last-minute pardoning his family and and others know.

What was the reason he gave for pardoning. Now, it's interesting if we go back in time. There was all kinds of people were saying that Trump was gonna pardon his children his family because they were so guilty.

He came out and said I'm not planning to pardon a man. They didn't do anything wrong. I don't pardon a person that's innocent and.

So.

Joe Biden pardoned a whole bunch of people proactively he said because he wanted to do that because he assumes Trump is gonna Attack these people and go after them and and do it. So he gave a part by the way pardons or purpose.

The purpose of a pardon is you have to actually be guilty. There's only one pardon that we have in history before January 20th where you can make the argument that the Pardon was for someone that wasn't charged as being guilty and that would be Nixon and even then Ford.

There was debate over that and Ford actually is his. The reason he pardoned Nixon was he said that Nixon's public Statements were it in mission of guilt and therefore he could use that to pardon.

Right really quickly. The whole point is whether guilty or innocent There has to be some act that we're weighing the pardon on and this pardon is saying Oh Proactively pardoned without any evidence one way or another.

I find it pretty atrocious. I mean, could you imagine having that get out of jail free card to your hunter Biden or one of these Jill or anyone? No matter what you do, you got a presidential pardon, that's not how pardon works.

It's in the it's in the definition of the word and those.

Guilt like he pardoned them and in so doing he is admitting that they did all the things that we've been saying they did.

Yeah, well, he's he's saying to protect them. But here's the thing he's when it was. When it was Donald Trump in office, they said oh he's gonna do this. It's that's illegal. You can't do it and I didn't even said my administration would never do such a thing and.

Now he does it now. Here's the interesting thing. What's the reason he's doing it and and there's there's a point to all this. He's projecting on to Donald Trump what he actually did to Donald Trump. Right in with all these investigations things like that because we do know that the four cases.

You know.

It's public record to see who goes in and out of the White House. All four of the prosecutors. All for the cases the day before that prosecution occurred against Donald Trump. They were visiting with Joe Biden.

So so he projects on to them what he actually does and. The and the point is with that is to notice these departments go back 10 years. I mean before Donald Trump was in office. I.

Mean, I'm surprised he didn't pardon every single person that worked at the White House. Let's not forget. This was an administration where coke balloons and cocaine were found in the White House. Where there were two men having anal sex on the Capitol floor and recorded it and it got leaked.

I mean the list goes on and on of the things that happened at this White House under Joe Biden and whoever was running the Country for the last four years. But if you want to see a fun video really quickly go to real DMW podcast on my ex account and there's a six-minute mashup of everyone from MSNBC and CNN saying in the late Trump presidency.

Oh my gosh. Why would you pardon anyone if you're if you're not guilty and then at the end of it? Of course, it shows the pardon of the entire Biden family. Yeah.

So, what do you have you have a case where there's projection you you you put you put on to the other person what you're Gonna do right? So you say oh I'm doing this. Because that person's gonna do that.

But what you're actually doing is The very thing you're accusing the other person of. So I bring that together and I know he's backstage, but I'm gonna I'm gonna say With a debate we're gonna talk about.

You got to see Tim Whitaker do the exact same thing. He projects upon Kennington. He's like he's cracking up back there. He he does the exact same thing. He accuses Kennington of what he actually does.

So now that he's back there, we'll have a lot of fun discussing that. Let me bring in Kenton. Kenna what's your last name? You'd have to unmute yourself though that usually.

Yeah, Kenton little Kenton little. Yeah. All right, so you're not big. My name matches my stature quite accurately.

Okay, well you look taller.

Five six.

Okay, well Brewster is a Brewster so yeah, he's. He's just like, you know with five five different black belts and Tim Whitaker. Sir, welcome.

Hello. Andrew. Spent and what. 15 20 years. Yeah, so so.

What Progressive Christianity Means and What the Gospel Is

So I was so we talked about the projecting. So I bring you in. I'm gonna read The exchange. I want to read a text exchange I had this morning with Greg because well, it was it was kind of funny. So I and I will say for the for audience in case these guys both came in they came in last-minute.

Tim is I believe at a conference. So the fact that he's in we appreciate.

Although I do enjoy this to be fair.

Yeah, so I you know, the the point being is I did not give them. I said to Greg like lat like last night like 24 hours ago said hey you want to you know. Invite the other guys on. And so to which he sent me a text that says from Tim and Kentington and he shows this text thing.

He says Tim says you hate him. Lol. So this is what what Tim said? He said, haha. He hates me. I went to his church as a kid. Tell him to unblock me and talk to me like an adult. Lol. To which my wrist to my response and I don't know if you saw my response was so let me get this straight.

He will not come on the show to talk to me as an adult because I blocked him. Please ask him to explain which one of us is acting like a little child and trying to get his way and refusing to talk.

Talk to me publicly Andrew, but you've blocked me on all social media. I'll talk to me privately, but here I am. Yeah.

Well, you know blocking people on social media it doesn't mean. You know, there's plenty of ways to communicate so it's just. There went Greg. What happened Greg? He vanished.

One question I was. I was curious. It's a real question. You you mentioned that I'm a progressive. You want to ask me a second question.

Yeah.

Mentioned I'm a progressive Christian. I'm just wondering for you. What does that mean? Like how am I a progressive Christian?

Well, it was a term you used in the debate. So do you deny what you said?

No, I don't. I'm just curious like I'm assuming I haven't I haven't I haven't seen you in literally in 15 years. It's the first time in a while.

Condolences that you got to see this face again.

I'm assuming that you're not a fan of progressive Christians. I'm just wondering like how you think about what it is. That makes me progressive.

Based on yeah, well progressive Christians are those who I would say let culture interpret scripture and they're they're not Christians. But we so let me let me ask this. Actually it was a question that I that I did have when I watched the debate so since you here I can ask you and because I was you know, cuz I know you may have to go so.

Could you and I think Kenton asked you this or mentioned it. That's what got me to think about it. Could you define what the gospel is.

Means good news good news of Christ. But what is what's the gospel message that ultimately Christ is reconciling the cosmos. It's the good news.

What does that mean?

What I just said that the crooked will be made straight at some point in the future. That God has made a way for us to be reconciled and to partner with his good creation bringing heaven on earth instead of hell on earth.

Well, what is what is the way that we get that we do. You have reconciliation like how do we get reconciled?

Well, I mean you want to ask how the Calvinist thinks that or how the Arminius thinks that right? I mean that people debate this exact thing. I believe it means having a radical allegiance to Jesus and I quote Matthew Bates his book radical allegiance where he Argues that the word faith is better interpreted allegiance.

And that's those who have allegiance to the way of Jesus that participate with Christ in his work on earth. That are part of the plan to reconcile all things back to himself and that includes grace that includes forgiveness that includes understanding all that.

But I definitely have walked away from the framework that I grew up with that. You know, if you prayed this prayer, you won't burn in hell one day. You'll go to heaven one day. That idea I think isn't really captured in the Gospels or ultimately what we're really talking about.

I mean even NT Wright would argue it's about a new a new earth not really heaven. So that's kind of how I think about it. So My brain progressing by the way.

Do you believe at at birth that we are? Enemies of God do we. Are we at a point before? Whatever you might call salvation. Are we enemies of God?

No, I reject that framework. I believe that we have the choice every day to partner with God in his wisdom or to partner with their own desires that bring Chaos on earth. So I do reject the Calvinist total depravity framework notice.

I haven't mentioned anything about Calvinism yet. Yeah, I know. I'm sure we're gonna get there.

And I don't think anything.

Calvinism either. We're not enemies of God. Why do we need to be reconciled to him?

Well because we participate in sin all the time, right. We we cause damage. We're we cause separation from ourselves and from our Creator. Absolutely doesn't mean that we're naturally an enemy. We can choose every day which way we want to go with that.

Okay, so so. When you say a Christian, how does someone become a Christian?

By giving allegiance to the way of Jesus. What does that mean? You read? Okay, so we look at the Beatitudes. We look at what Jesus says in Matthew, right. Those who do the will of the Father, etc. And we look at what he teaches.

We become disciples of Christ following in his footsteps by participating in The work of Christ that he could he is brought on to his disciples that we continue on.

Okay, so is there a point in time when someone is not a Christian becomes a Christian. Because what you said is something that can come and go. I mean someone can give allegiance and not give allegiance and just that's right.

I don't believe that lose it become a Christian lose it. I think people can walk away from the faith. That I didn't say walk away from faith. I think that people can stop being a Christian. They can stop being a Christian.

Yes, they can give their allegiance to Jesus. They can revoke that allegiance to Jesus.

Okay. So is it about? Getting right with God as.

Far as are you talking about like in like a spiritual sense of like I repent of my sins.

Well in a sense of atonement as we would see in Leviticus. Yeah, I mean I.

Definitely. Reject penal substitutionary atonement. I have more of a healing atonement theory at this point in my theological journey. That Christ sacrifices is the antidote for sin the virus that's taking over what God called at one point good.

But certainly we are agents at times of that sin, right? I mean we look around the world. There's tons of chaos. Humans create that chaos. We create damage all over the earth. And certainly repentance to turn and go the other way from that sin is key to the Christian.

Faith.

Okay, and I know I'm asking all the questions, but I have something I'm curious of while you're here. And so. Do you believe. Let me ask this. Why did Christ have to die?

Why did Christ have to die? Yeah. Well, I mean like I said I offer the healing atonement theory for this that Christ that Christ sacrifice is the antidote for Being able to heal the world of sin once and for all.

Now process was started with his death and of course resurrection which I do.

Affirm.

Okay, how does his death? Bring that healing like what's special about his death that would bring the healing resurrection, right?

There's the death in the course of resurrection that that death doesn't have the final sing. Then again as as Christians We look forward to the day where we're resurrected again. And that death is not the final say in what God called good.

So I believe as a Christian my call is to participate in that in the here and now hoping of course. It's it's that tension right of like the here. But not yet this idea like we want to be part of this kingdom of God that we're trying to realize on earth as Christ Followers and also realizing that ultimately we're never gonna fully accomplish that.

But we look forward to the day when Christ comes back and Reconciles the cosmos back to himself. All the crooked sin of the world is made straight again. And we're able to go to code rule with God the way they was intended to be a creation.

Okay, can I jump in here? Cuz I'm confused a little bit. So I just want to me. Hey Tim. Nice to see you again. Oh, yeah, I was having all kinds of video and audio as you said.

I gotta I gotta play this. Since you said that here was it, you know, Kennington put this comment up Greg. Definitely raptured. He he was the only true Christian in the bunch. He's back now. So I guess not yeah.

He'd look it up on Wikipedia that makes.

Wikipedia isn't a good theological source for a debate Andrew. So, I'm just I want to see where you're coming from Tim because I I know some guys like you and I know some guys Who and I don't know if you want me to label you as you know deconstructed but in this vein of kind of company I heard kind of your story when we did the debate of coming out of Of a Christian home and kind of re-examining some things.

I think what did you say was in your 20s or was it early? I had a Christian fundamentalism. I.

Renegotiated my faith seriously, maybe a few years ago, but ever since 2016 I kind of on that path. Okay, so so to kind of reiterate.

Andrew's question because I'm very interested in this is why is the resurrection important if if if if sin doesn't automatically make us an enemy of God which I find laughable. If I had someone who was pillaging my house and raping my wife and Beating my kids and stealing from me. I'd go.

Well, it's a pretty nice guy, but it's it's just a virus. He'll get over I go. No, that guy's my enemy until I can something can change. So and it's not a Calvinist view. I mean, we know original sin was talked about well before Calvin came or came around.

But my point is why is Christ? Resurrection important then what what what does that magical thing that antidote that you're talking about do for sin?

That death doesn't have the final sting right sin gives birth to death. Do we all agree on that? Isn't that the problem of sin it gives birth to death. That's what that's what st Paul says in the scriptures.

So the resurrection is the symbol that God conquers death and how does he do that? Well by giving in to death ironically. But and so as the Christian the hope is that we one day will be able to be part of that world Where death does not have the final sting where sin does not reign over right the human condition or the or creation, etc.

So and I want to be clear. I'm not saying that. Imagine me. I want to be charitable here, especially on your show. Maybe I misinterpreted what you were saying, which I want to own but I was under the impression that what you were saying is like when you're born you're born naturally as in like a Permanent stasis an enemy of God and what I would say is that we have as humans the ability to do great Good and great bad.

I mean we can look at human civilization civil Civilization see people have done really great things with their lives and have had good moments and I've had really bad moments. I've caused a lot of damage.

So I don't think it's it's a stasis of like I'm I'm all bad or I'm all good at any given time. I mean, this is just Today I can do good and bad.

If I can if I can jump in here real quick because I think and by the way, um Tim, my name is Aaron. I watched uh your debate earlier and I want to share with you at some point. Maybe uh before you go, uh the text I sent to uh to andrew.

Uh before uh before all this happened. Um, but anyway, so I I still like actually I want to kind of be the third guy to kind of reiterate What andrew has asked and now then greg just asked because if i'm hearing you correctly you're suggesting and correct me if i'm wrong.

That christ's death and resurrection was merely illustrative. Like it was merely just a a picture of a bigger reality.

Um.

When when we would say that his His death was efficacious his death and his resurrection did something like it accomplished something. Am I hearing that you're saying it didn't accomplish something? It was just a it was just kind of like a picture like a flannel graph kind of kind of an idea.

Well, I well, I mean, I I believe that christ physically rose again from the dead. To be clear I don't think it's of course. Yeah, so i'm gonna put that out there because progressive christians, you know People can think.

I think it's all. I don't think that I believe in a physical resurrection. What i'm saying is that my understanding and I want to be clear. This isn't like a new understanding in my mind. I think i've always believed this even growing up in different spaces.

Is that the resurrection signifies Again that like death this thing that is taking over Does not have the final say in the believer's life that one day we will live again. So but that word signifies.

Did it did I did I get the right idea though? Like you're saying it signifies it it images it it. You believe that it happened, but it happened as As kind of like a signpost and a neon light to the world that this can happen to you, too.

But it didn't accomplish anything more than just to signify than just to image. Well, I believe it.

Okay, I think I understand what you're saying. In my opinion in my view the resurrection signified that The rule of god is happening that it is coming that the kingdom is coming. But again here but not yet.

So that's how I kind of think about it.

Yeah, okay, I guess I would just push back and I think oh I guess andrew and greg, uh can can tell me if they agree with me on this I think and kenton too i'm assuming probably as well. We our our position would be uh that you know christ death and resurrection.

Were a necessary. Uh, nothing. Nobody could be saved had it not happened. Uh, and therefore it actually accomplished something in the act of it in the death and in the resurrection. Yes, it signifies things.

Yes, it's illustrative of many things for sure, but had it not happened. Mankind could not be reconciled with god. It was an efficacious work that he did. So that's why I asked the question to understand Where you are.

Because it seems that you you're you don't believe it accomplished anything much more than just a hey.

Look at this. This can be you too. Oh, i'm sorry. Um. Yeah to be clear. Um, no, I think that it was necessary like I that last part you just said I would agree with.

Okay, so I think that was the question if I if i'm right andrew and greg I think that's the question that they were asking. Why was it necessary? Why did jesus have to die and raise again? Like what did it actually?

Accomplish in the warp and woof of humanity to make it possible so we can be reconciled.

Well, it made a way for us to reconcile it back to our creator, right? It's the whole point of it via.

And what I and i'm not asking this. I don't want to be a jerk in any way shape or form. I'm just asking for clarification. And what is that way like how how it does that happen I guess is maybe the question.

It's like how does someone participate in that? Yeah by giving allegiance to the way of the crucified jesus that rose again. I mean that's back to i'm being honest like you. You thought you'd become a disciple a follower Of jesus by giving your loyalty not to the empire, right?

Not to culture but to the way of jesus. So I would start with the gospel accounts the beatitudes What did he actually teach and I would start there and then work outward that that's what I couldn't.

That couldn't happen if christ hadn't died.

What do you mean that like someone couldn't be a follower of jesus? Yeah, jesus hadn't died and rose again. Well, someone could have anything else.

Had his ministry teach the attitudes interpreted the law did everything else but didn't die and rise again. Could we still give allegiance to a.

Well, yeah, we can give allegiance to anyone right. People give allegiance to politicians that that's a possibility. I give my life to the same risen and a crucified and risen messiah. That's who I give my allegiance to.

But.

If someone was a follower of jesus And he had not died and risen again Would that allegiance to him reconcile them to god? I I would imagine. Well.

Obviously it happened. So the christian believes that that's the case. So it's a hypothetical that I can't answer because we know that it happened or we believe that it happened. And that's our answer to that question.

If if if he didn't i'm sure there'd be a different religion. That we'd probably be a part of that would claim a different thing. But as a christian I affirm and believe that to be reconciled back to your creator.

It goes through the crucified and risen christ. And I don't want to be I don't want to be short. I only have so much time if you want to ask christian nationals questions, too. We can do that. I just don't know how long you guys want to go on this.

I'm happy.

Well, can I can I share with him the text I sent to you? Yeah, go for it. Okay.

Um, so.

Right after finishing the video. I immediately texted him and I said oh man. We're gonna have it's just gonna be so much fun tonight. I said half of that debate was an absolute dumpster fire. And the other half I disagree with I wrote this to him and I sent a smiley face along with it as well.