TPW 78 Eastern Orthodoxy Fr. Thomas Hopko Am I Saved

Introduction to the Protestant Witness and the Eastern Orthodox Response

Welcome to the Protestant Witness. This is Pastor Patrick Hines here at Bridwell Heights Presbyterian Church in beautiful lovely and yet very rainy and cloudy Kingsport, Tennessee and I'm going to repost a Podcast actually was a video.

I did a long time ago in response to Father Thomas Hopko. I posted a couple things on the Protestant Witness Responding to him a convert a very zealous convert to Eastern Orthodoxy Had sent me his stuff Father Hopko's stuff on the cross and it was it was pretty bad and I responded to that over two programs this one was a response to a video called am I saved and you know the The title immediately caught my attention and I thought I bet you this would be interesting because it's it's interviewing this guy Thomas Hopko and he was put out there to me as you know an efficient Spokesperson for the cause but I kind of introduced all that here in the in the old video that I'm making the audio available here on the Protestant Witness because this is a really teachable moment and it really I think that not just Eastern Orthodoxy, but also the new perspectives on Paul and a lot of other false strands of pseudo-christianity that are out there that don't have any place in them for Christ suffering divine justice and punishment at the cross Need to be answered and we in Christians, especially need to be equipped to recognize This is the heart and soul of the Christian faith.

This is the heart and soul of absolutely everything that we believe. So I hope that you'll find this to be a useful and edifying and thanks for listening. Well, I'm gonna review a two-part What looks like a television program of some kind called orthodoxy today?

I've noticed in my dialogues with some Eastern Orthodox individuals. Some of them are very very nice. Some of them are not about these issues is that Eastern Orthodoxy is Evidently pretty hard to to represent accurately and I've noticed that no matter what I say, it's a misrepresentation.

Apparently only they can say it. Now I have been told that the guy being interviewed on here father Thomas Hopko Is kind of kind of a liberal. But he you know, he was a a priest listen to this introduction on this TV program.

Just listen to the way he's described I'm not sure that the the priest that told me that he's kind of liberal. I don't know if the host of the TV show here would agree with that. Anyway, here it is. Listen to the intro to this guy.

I'm Quaylin Nassar, you know, most of us want to be sure that we're being saved even though we're not quite clear what that means.

Well this program like I thought that introduction was really interesting. All of us want to be sure that we're being saved even though we're not quite sure what that means.

Perspective. We're now to Orthodox theologian father Thomas Hopkins. Okay renowned.

Orthodox Theologian so I would think this guy, you know is able to speak efficiently for Eastern Orthodoxy. So I guess we'll see.

He's the Dean Emeritus of Crestwood, New York's.

St. Vladimir Seminary and in addition to that, okay, so he teaches at it at an Orthodox seminary. St Vladimir seminary. Well, he did. I know he died a couple years ago, but.

Publications and books on orthodox theology.

He's a sought-after speaker and we are so he's a speaker. He's a published author from this perspective. So I think that he again should be someone that we could look to to speak efficiently for this cause.

Fortunate to be able to have him now living in greater Pittsburgh area and being with us. He's going to talk about salvation with John McGinnis. Oh the Tom welcome back.

Always a pleasure to have you here. Well today the million-dollar question salvation. How many of us in our lifetimes have been asked? Have you been saved? Are you being saved? Let's talk about salvation when we talk about being saved from an Orthodox perspective.

What does that mean? Well, I think that it means that we realize and I think most people if they're alive and awake realize that we don't know really what things are about that we are confused and that there's a Conflict of understanding of things and then we have also the feeling that you know.

What we want to do we can't do. What we don't want to do we do as the Apostle Paul said somewhere.

That's Romans 7. It's interesting this he was the guy that was referred to me by a convert as as the end-all be-all. He did a series of messages on the cross and I reviewed those. They're just the one message.

It was 56 minutes long and I did a couple of programs on That sermon and reviewed it and it was it was really bad and it was a it was a frontal attack on Almost everything taught in Scripture about the nature of the cross of Christ and what it accomplishes.

But here you're getting I can hear the same kind of emphasis already. We're kind of confused and we don't understand what everything's about. So salvation to this particular individual Thomas Hopko, Father Hopko Seems to be more saved from ignorance saved from confusion and things like that because he doesn't believe In salvation from the wrath or anger of God or against sin or anything like that.

So right out of the gate you hear his The same old stuff that we've heard I mean really this is as I said in the other programs I did reviewing this guy that he What he represents theologically is really Quite old.

We heard all this from liberals throughout really throughout the centuries. Um, he reminds me a lot of Neo-orthodox and liberal Theologians that we read when I was in seminary so again, but this is this is a guy who's a seminary professor a published author a sought-after speaker and a renowned theologian of Eastern Orthodoxy.

Of course the whole issue of injustice. You have the issue of Meanness and.

Cruelty of injustice meanness cruelty. We're talking about what is it? What does the Bible mean when when it the Philippian jailer asks the question What must I do to be saved? Paul and Silas didn't go on a discourse about the meanness of people or the ignorance of man or Social injustice or anything like that.

And yet this is where He was asked a basic question about being saved and this is where he's going.

People's to each other you have sickness you have disease you have death the ultimate enemy. So I think that salvation mainly means I mean if you try to put it as quickly listen carefully in a sense being delivered from or liberated from or victorious over All the things that any normal human being would be considered negative.

So.

Victory. This was a major theme in this particular guy's understanding of the cross the cross of Jesus Christ The Messiah, I remember him saying over and over again He just he just has to suffer in order to do God's victory.

That's the way he just kept saying it. You gotta you have to suffer and then rise again to do the victory of God. And you just wonder the only reason that the Christus Victor model Which which is a biblical concept that first Corinthians 15 speaks about the victory of Christ.

The only reason it is a victorious act is because it does Propitiate the wrath of God against sin. He does bring a perfect righteousness, which is imputed to his people. He brings perfect forgiveness of sins to his people.

That's what makes it victorious. And yet he's Saying that salvation is ultimately is victory over everything negative.

Ignorance justice wickedness evil suffering sin disease and ultimately death and irrational powers of all sorts. And That would be the from and then for would be for wholeness integrity life. Peace joy.

And we would even say the orthodox tradition all the qualities of God.

Notice what's missing? What's missing is human sinfulness against the Holy God. That's what saved when the Bible speaks of being saved Romans 5 9. How much more than having now been justified by his blood.

We shall be saved from wrath through him. The ultimate thing that people need to be saved from yes. All of the effects of sin. Yes, we need to be saved from those but we need to be saved from the wrath of God.

That's primarily what's going on at the cross and that has that has cosmic implications. Romans 8 21 and following speaks of the creation itself is going to be delivered from all the Influence of the curse all the influence of sin and everything else.

But sin is the main issue.

And.

God is angry at sin. This guy does not like that idea. And so he he steers clear of it. That's one of the reasons I wanted to review these programs is if you can have someone who is this allergic. To the basics of the biblical gospel Be a priest in good standing a sought-after Speaker a published author and a seminary professor that says a lot about this particular religious group that that even one of the kind.

Of proofs of God is that we're so dissatisfied inside ourselves I mean everyone from st. Augustine to the Rolling Stones, you know said. I can't get no satisfaction.

That's actually that's actually a really good point. He's right about that. When can we finally be at peace?

And then of course the ultimate the ultimate reality is Knowledge of truth and victory over death. And by the way in Hebrew Language the word for salvation is synonymous with the word for victory. They're not two different words.

So he really really really likes the the Christus Victor Model and it doesn't make any sense in his system because the reason that the death of Christ is a victory is precisely because He has paid in full the debt that his people owed to God's justice for their sins.

That's what makes it a victory. That's what makes the resurrection a victory is that it has removed The the enmity between man and God due to our sin and the punishment thereof. But he doesn't like the idea of punishment.

He doesn't like the idea of there being any kind of.

Legal.

Justice that God is is pouring out on Christ, even though that's explicitly what Isaiah 53 The Lord it pleased Yahweh to crush him The chastisement for our peace was on him by his stripes We are healed the Lord has laid on him the iniquities of us all.

This guy doesn't like that idea. And so he he's gonna find a way to explain Christianity without it. Actually reminds me a little bit of N .T. Wright. He's similar to that even the term Yeshua, which is the name Jesus.

That the angel gave to Joseph. It can mean Savior, but it can also mean Victor.

And.

Yeah, yet when when the angel Gabriel spoke to Joseph in his dream in Matthew chapter 1 verse 21 He said and you shall call his name Jesus. Yesus. That's the Greek form of Yeshua. Meaning Yahweh is salvation and he tells him why his name is gonna be called Yeshua or Jesus and It is because he will save his people from their sins not he will save his people from ignorance and from injustice and from All of the the negativity of life.

It's from their sin. This guy doesn't like that idea. And so he just really just kind of ignores it even when In the sermon he did. When he does take up the key passages He just kind of glibly dismisses them and then goes back to all this victory stuff.

The victory but the victory over what. Well.

Ignorance sin.

At least sin is thrown in there. I guess there's no way around it. But the main thing we need victory over is ignorance and that kind of stuff.

It's a death itself. So I think. And then how that would happen. Of course we would claim that we can't save ourselves. You know, no matter how much we would try whatever what we would do. However enlightened or kind we might be.

We all realize that we're never perfect. And then we all realize that we have to face the injustices of life and that in fact, we're all now. So I think that would be.

So salvation is that point if you will that takes us from those Senior things in life all the way to death and brings us to wholeness to light to um in essence I guess what I'm hearing you say is the presence of God.

Yeah, exactly.

I mean another way of just saying, you know, are you saved or being saved me? Are you really living according to God?

Are you living that that's not what what scripture is talking about? Are you saved. It is has a specific biblical concept God is holy. God is righteous and just man is a sinner man is under the wrath of God.

That's just last night was reading with my children Ephesians chapter 2 we were by nature children of wrath just as the others under the wrath and anger of God for our sins and he this guy just He just completely misses it.

I mean listen to what he just said again. Listen, I Are you really living according to God sirs, what must I do to live according to God? That's what he meant by saved. No, clearly he was being convicted of his sin and he wanted to know How can I be saved from the just punishment that is gonna fall upon me for my sin?

When we talk about being saved am I saved. Saved from what saved primarily biblically from the justice of God? That's what hell is. That's what Jesus endured on the cross was the justice of God against the sins of his people.

That's why his name was Jesus. He will save his people from their sins. He is primarily a savior from sin. Everything else that were delivered from is a corollary to that central truth. But that's the main thing people need to understand when we ask am I saved?

We're not asking am I living according to God now those who are saved will live according to God. But that's sanctification. That's another category of biblical redemption.

Are you living according to the truth to wisdom to reality in biblical language? Are you not a fool, you know?

Do you are you wise that's not what saved?

Means it just isn't so. Can you see things clearly? Do you know how to relate properly? And have virtue. I mean with most cultures are called virtue. You know being a wise true kind peaceful joyful person.

And here. Of course, we would be Christians who claim the only Person on the planet who ever did that with Jesus. That's why he's our Savior. And he is the only one who had absolute unbroken communion with God.

So he's our Savior. Or as he said you could say he's our victor. Um, but he's our Savior because he's the only one that's ever done it. But what does he mean by that though?

I'm he's not really fleshing this out. Let's see if he does I mean at all times. And therefore was able to destroy death.

So.

Jesus Christ therefore as Savior. What I mean, what does that really mean for us?

They're good questions. Salvation outside of Jesus. Well, sure. We would definitely say that we would say.

Well, you have to say that that's what Peter said in Acts 4 12 Christ saves us.

However, it would we would say immediately two things. The Church Fathers would say immediately two things. One thing would be as Far as God Almighty is concerned For this for us. This would even be a gospel.

The good news would be as far as God Almighty is concerned everyone and everything is saved.

Jesus see he brought this out in the other sermon to Everything saved everybody saved. So it made me wonder is this guy a universalist does he believe that everybody's going to heaven because everybody is saved.

I don't get it and clear if there's anything clear in the New Testament. Not everybody is saved. There are people who are going to die on in their sins under the wrath of God. Think about John 3 36. The scripture says he who believes in the Son, let's see how I'm saying three three six.

He who believes in the Son has everlasting life and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life. But the wrath of God abides on him. There it is again. So what why is he missing this point? He doesn't like it.

He does not like it and so he's gonna find a way around it if everyone and everything. And everyone and everything is saved he said I.

Would add whether you want it or not know it or not or like it or not. You're saved as far as God is concerned.

That is just bizarre. Whether you like it or not everyone and everything Everyone every human being Repentant or unrepentant is saved if that's true. Why does Paul say for example in 1st Corinthians 9.

He says here towards the end. For though I am free of from all men I have made myself a servant to all that I might win the more. What win them to what salvation? Well, if they're already saved if everybody is saved from God's perspective, everyone is saved.

Why do you need to win people? That I might win those who are without law to the weak I became as weak that I might win the weak I have become all things to all men that I might by all means save some.

And so on and so forth. No people need to be saved. It's not that they're all saved whether they like it or not. From God's perspective everyone.

Because When Christ dies on the cross He literally loves God perfectly with all his mind soul heart and strength and keeps all the commandments and is a totally righteous man. That's true, but he is also fully divine.

Embracing all of our. He came curse in behalf of his people. Yeah.

Substitutionary atonement that what is the curse that is the punishment of God? The curse of the law is the punishment the judicial legal penal Punishment of God against our law-breaking. If you break the law of God you incur its curse.

That's why Galatians 3 13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law having become a curse who pair him own in behalf of us.

Oh when Christ well, just put one of our Saints Gregory the theologian he said one drop of his blood recreates the whole creation and empties the graves and Redoes the whole creation. Yeah, everything is now beginning again.

So we was as far as God is concerned. However, we have to accept that we have to believe that we have to want that. And here you could say if a person desires it wants it hungers and thirst for it in the end.

They will have it by sheer grace.

So if you want it and desire it you'll have it by sheer grace. That's that's not what the Bible means by grace. Grace necessitates unconditional election. That's why for example in Ephesians chapter 1 listen.

Just as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world. That we should be holy and without blame before him in love having predestined us to adoption. By G as sons by Jesus Christ to himself according to the good pleasure of his will to the praise of the glory of his grace.

The.

Choosing of individuals by name. Individually from before the foundation of the world and that is not everybody in the human race. That is to the praise of the glory of his grace to say that we are saved by sheer grace.

Necessitates that we were chosen Before the foundation of the world in Christ, and he does not choose everybody in Christ. He does not choose everyone. He chooses those whom he freely loves and nobody deserves to be chosen.

No one is chosen because they're better than anyone else. Grace necessitates unconditional election.

Realized that they have it only because of Christ at this at the same time a Person on this in this world. They never have heard the gospel or heard it in a terribly perverted form.

And.

But they might be closer to the real God and in the end only God knows. But we would say everyone is safe, but.

Did you hear that?

So he sounds a lot like Karl Rahner the Roman Catholic theologian sounds like a universalist sounds a lot like you know Many of the Arminians and the open theists. What about those who have never heard?

Well, as long as you're sincere and you've you've you know drawn closer to the one true God through the light of nature and everything. Just total denials of biblical truth total denials of a passage.

They've already alluded to there is no salvation in Anyone but Jesus Christ. Well, you can have salvation in Christ without really knowing about Christ. That is not a biblical category. You have to hear the gospel.

You have to hear about Jesus in order to believe in him. But this whole obsession with free will and works and everything else that necessitates. Well, maybe people who've never heard they can make a generic faith move toward God and and be saved based upon whatever knowledge That they did have revealed in the stars and creation.

Again, totally unbiblical. That is not a biblical teaching men universally suppress the truth and unrighteousness Romans 118 and following All men know God, but they suppress the truth about him and unless they are acted upon by God's Almighty invincible irresistible grace, they will never turn towards God ever.

Hell. Hell. If there's hell it would be simply that I remember this part. If there's hell that listen. It would be Hell. If there's hell it would be simply the cut if if there is hell.

See this. I really wonder if hot if this guy even believes in such a thing. I I don't get the impression that he believes in hell. It makes sense that he wouldn't because he doesn't believe that God has a judicially applied punishment that he lays upon Christ at all.

In the sermon I was given this sincere young guy sends me this sermon pastor, please listen to this sermon. I think this will really help you understand and I listened to it three times. And I just it was one of the most horrifically unbiblical treatments of the cross I have ever heard in my life and reminded me of Harry Emerson Fosdick and Jay Gresham Machen fighting about this back in the 1920s.

It was a horrendously unbiblical Idea and I emailed back and said does this guy is there does he believe in eternal punishment? I don't get the impression that he does listen to this. He says hell if there is a hell listen to it again.

Only God knows but we would say everyone is is safe, but hell.

Hell if there's hell it would be if there is hell. Was that a slip of tongue or is he?

Showing his cards a little bit. The conscious rejection of the life and the truth and the beauty and the glory of God a person. Just well to use Jesus's own words. They prefer darkness to light. They don't they don't love love.

That's John 3 19 and 20 very true. The only reason people reject the true gospel is because they love sin. The reason that mankind suppresses the truth and unrighteousness is because they love unrighteousness.

No one can serve two masters. You can't love sin and Christ at the same time. Love truth.

They prefer to be sick, you know, they prefer in fact in the language of the old covenant Moses law It would be the Jews death. Yes, God said through Moses I give to the people a blessing and a curse life and death.

Choose life choose life. Yeah, you have to choose like you have to want life. But our claim would be anyone who wants it don't have it on the last day.

Anyone so whether you've ever heard the gospel or not, that's cool. So we don't have to do evangelism and missions. You know God everybody can you know make a generic faith move toward? Whatever and they'll be okay in the last day or whatever.

This is not biblical. Man needs to hear the gospel Jesus when he was speaking to Paul on the road to Damascus. When Paul explains this to King Agrippa Jesus said I am sending you to turn them from darkness to light.

You can't turn from darkness to light without hearing the gospel. This is like this is like standard Arminian semi-palatian and Open theistic. I mean this this sounds Very very liberal so that he does sound liberal now father.

I'm sure you have had plenty of people in your life.

I certainly have had in mind people who come from particular traditions where they believe that the concept of being saved is a particular moment a particular episode in their Particular life. And they have said to me and I'm sure said to you when were you saved?

How do you answer that question.

Save. That would say when Jesus gave up his spirit on the cross and died. Then I was yeah, that's quite true.

But I don't mean it the same way he does. You're saved at the moment of your conversion. Just like Paul says in Ephesians chapter 2 before he was made alive in Christ He was a child of wrath. He was by nature a child of wrath just as the others it says in Ephesians 2 verse 3.

But God verse 4 who is rich in mercy because of his great love of which he loved us even when we were dead in Our trespasses and sins made us alive together with Christ by grace. You have been saved have been saved.

Yes, it is a point action in the past because in that context It's synonymous with justification. With the judicial declarative act of God that we have are justified forensically legally judicially by faith in Jesus Christ.

That's the moment of my salvation but but I do think that there is a certain truth in that approach namely. That faith has to become alive. It has to be accepted. It has to be kind of self-conscious, you know.

Yeah, it's hard to believe in someone that you've never heard of. In fact Paul says that very thing. How shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? How shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard?

And how shall they believe and less without a preacher. Romans 10 14 how then shall I cut. How shall they call on him in whom they have not believed. And how shall they believe in him Of whom they have not heard and how shall they hear without a preacher?

So you do need to hear the gospel in order to be saved. You can't just generically respond to the light of nature. Light of nature is not sufficient to give us a saving knowledge of God.

There there are but I think we would say orthodox would say that happens over and again many times and we can know.

See, and this is the common error Roman Catholics make the same argument that we've been saved. We're being saved and we will be saved. The fact of the matter is our ultimate Salvation or justification is an eschatological reality.

Yes. However at the moment we believe that Eschatological last-day verdict is brought backwards in time and applied to us in the way that the New Testament teaches us that it is. That at one point we are by nature children of wrath.

When we are converted when we are born again, and our faith is in Jesus Christ at that exact moment.

We are justified once and for all before God legally judicially fall away from it and fall back to darkness and come back. It's a whole drama. And I think that that's a very important that you can't say.

At this moment I was saved and I know. And another thing John I think one of the most terrible things in my opinion is when people start saying well What do you need to do to be sick? I have to go to church.

I think some Jesus. Do I have to do good words? Well, my professor of theology used to say he was a Russian who would say my dears. This is an abomination. This approach to salvation. He said a person can't just say what's the minimum I need to do to get to go to heaven when I die.

Yeah, that's very true. I You hear that kind of thing. So I know what he's talking about. Pastorally speaking I'm a person has no desire to follow Christ no desire for holiness. The fact is they are not a Christian period that doesn't mean we're saved by doing those things.

But a true Christian is going to become a member of a church it's gonna have a hunger and thirst for righteousness. It's going to desire to follow Christ and so forth and so on. That would be horrible.

It'd be like saying how much time should I give my wife, right? That's very true. I mean, it's oh, it's it's just a sick approach. It's a sick approach. It is if salvation really is about. Living and knowing the truth and rejoicing in God.

And knowing wisdom and rejoicing in the flowers and so on that's a process it's going on. Oh, no, it's not.

We have been saved by grace. You have been saved through faith. It is a one-time.

Action.

Now, yes, you could say that the the term Biblically speaking doesn't encompass more than that. Excuse me, but when we speak of salvation from the wrath of God, that is a one-time you have been saved.

By faith in Jesus Christ all the time and here of course, we would say. Not quoting a church father, but Yogi Berra. It ain't over till it's over, you know. And so we have to persevere to the end and even Jesus said the one who perseveres to the end.

Right very true and that is a descriptive statement. If you he who endures to the end shall be saved that does not mean and this is such a common error. Once again, it does not mean that By enduring to the end you are saved on that basis.

Merely it is a descriptive term. Those who endure to the end those whose faith stays in Jesus Christ to the end Shall be saved. Those who fall away from their profession were never saved to begin with first.

John 2 19 teaches that very clearly and again, this is another passage. I would love to hear these people deal with. They went out from us. But they were not of us for if they had been of us They would have continued with us.

But they went out. That they might be made manifest that none of them were of us. Those who fall away from their profession Have not done so because Jesus failed to save them. But because their faith was something they drummed up in themselves and was not a divine gift as it is to the elect when they are affectionately called.

But it's to end.

I've been saved by the blood of Jesus Christ. What's your response to that? I say. Yes, you have and.

You better be living by it every day and you better not betray it and you better not presume it.

Isn't that amazing? This is another thing that this guy brings out a lot and I've seen this from other Eastern Orthodox Individuals that I've dialogued with. Well, yeah, that's true, but you better not presume on it, you know, Eric.

You know Castleman said the same thing, you know, we believe Jesus died for our sins and we're saved by the blood of Christ. But yeah, you always have to listen out for these for these buts. But we don't presume on it.

It's just incredible to me what these people call presuming. Christians have looked at from the beginning as. Believing the promises of God. Therefore Having been justified by faith. We have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Romans 5 1. Romans 8 1. There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus. I don't say now, you know, you can you can believe that but you don't want to presume on it. You better be living by it.

No. You believe the promise of God you believe the promises of his word that salvation is your possession. You have eternal life and shall not come into condemnation. Who will bring a charge against God's elected as God who justifies who is he who condemns?

We don't presume on it. It's not presumption to believe the promises of God.

If you are.

Satan the thing is in Roman Catholic theology. There's a whole category of sin that they call presumption. The sin of presumption is what believing that you are in fact a Christian. I mean, is this really the life that we've been called to by Jesus Christ a life of nail-biting and uncertainty?