August 16, 2016 Show with C. Jay Engel on “A Christian Libertarian Economist’s Answers to: ‘Can We Rescue the Economy of the USA?'”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania.

It's iron sharpens iron a radio platform on which pastors Christian

scholars and theologians Address the burning issues facing the church and the world

today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron so one

man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage quote.

We are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in

conversation To make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour.

And we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions.

Now here's our host.

Good afternoon.

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania.

And the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth.

Who are listening via live -streaming?

This is Chris Arns and your host of iron sharpens iron wishing you all a happy Tuesday on this

16th day of August 2016.

You know the great 20th century Presbyterian J.

Gresham Machen Said everywhere there rises before our eyes the specter of a society

where security if it is attained at all Will be attended at the expense of freedom

where the security that is attained will be the security of fed beasts in a stable and

Where all the high aspirations of humanity will have been crushed by an all -powerful state

as I said that's dr. J. Gresham Machen founder of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church one of the

theological heroes During the fundamentalist modernist controversy.

That happens to be also a quote at the top of the reformed Libertarian Facebook page

and we're gonna be finding out more about reformed libertarianism or paleo

libertarianism.

From our guest today who we have for the very first time on iron sharpens iron CJ Engel who is the

founder and editor of reformed libertarian comm host of the aforementioned

reformed libertarian Facebook page.

He is a registered financial advisor in Northern, California where he lives with his wife and children and

He also is a paleo libertarian.

We're gonna find out more about specifically how that is different from Many who wear

the label libertarian today today?

Our specific theme is a Christian libertarian economists answer to can we rescue?

The economy of the United States of America and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you To iron sharpens iron for

the very first time.

CJ Engel.

It's my pleasure and let me right off the bat.

Give our email address for those of our listeners who want to join us on the air with a question of their own.

It is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

That's ch r is a r n z n at gmail .com

and please give us your first name your city and state and your country of residence if you live outside of the

USA and We would love to hear from you.

You you may remain anonymous if it makes you feel more comfortable.

But we would prefer it if you at least identify yourself by first name city and state and

country.

Well, first of all CJ if you don't mind before we even get into the main theme at hand.

Tell us something about your own Christianity how you came to faith in Christ and how

you became theologically reformed as a Christian.

Dark thinking as a

from a

reformed old children where

theology was at the Center of our education and so it's something that has been with me

for the entirety of my life thus far I I started becoming more and more

interested in you know, sort of a Calvinist not quite reformed Perspective in high school as

I became more interested in researching on the Internet.

Everybody listening to the show is more than aware of the fact that there's been sort of a resurgent a resurgent

Of attention to the Calvinist dictates and I was part of that

those, you know young people under the age of 20 that started researching and looking and

Discovering and making theology my own and coming to my own conclusions that may or may

not be the same.

Of my parents it was in it was in college later on that I began to realize that there was a distinction

between You know reform theology proper and Calvinism, which might be

considered a subset of reform theology.

I began, you know pouring into the confessions of faith And you know the

Westminster confession and I wasn't sure what the difference was between that the Paedo -Baptist and

the cradle -baptist.

But along the way I began to notice the differences and kind of theology and how that has an impact on

You know the covenant membership of younger Younger parts

of the family and so I began studying, you know, these things like I reached the conclusion That the

the London Baptist confession of faith

18 or 19.

So for the last six years, I've been a reformed

back to 1689 confession of faith.

Well that you have a brother who shares the same confession right here.

I'm a member of Grace Baptist Church in Carlisle, Pennsylvania, and we also adhere to the 1689 London Baptist

Confession.

In fact every church That I have been a member of.

Well This is the actually the second church that I have been a member of since I became a born -again believer in

Christ in the 1980s.

Adhered to this 1689 confession.

I was raised Roman Catholic prior to my salvation so it's great to have a

fellow reformed Baptist on the program.

And so when in your life as now you are a Christian

when did this fascination with politics arise and Specifically when did you

start to gravitate towards?

Libertarianism or more specifically paleo libertarianism and we'll have you define that distinction in a moment.

But tell us something about the the political Interests that developed in your life.

Well, that's an easy one because I remember the road so distinctly.

I went to a small private Christian college out here in Northern California just outside of

Sacramento and I went to school Thinking I was going to be a pastor and

attend seminary and so I majored in Bible and theology.

I also took a or attempted to take a minor in business administration.

Because I wanted to have some practical skills and I know You know running a household and running a church

requires some of those things besides I was in the first

class and economics was definitely not for me and

I decided that I needed to Focus more else to be

fiance and now wife was in public policy.

That was her major and she was studying more theoretical things such as government

Theory politics and things of that nature and I was jealous at the time of seeing her workload.

Looked over an envy and decided that I was going to switch majors.

And so it's kind of a funny story that I It looks like they chased my wife around the academic.

And I suppose you could say that as I got more into these

classes I began to really fascination with these things.

You know, especially the government and political fear quit

my first major or minor.

Excuse me a business administration because of the economic side of things and by the time I hit my senior year

My senior dissertation was on the Federal Reserve, which is the United States Central Bank.

And so that is economic land galore.

So funny how you I went in with one perspective in my set and came out with something totally else.

But that's I mean my college years were really the fundamental time in my life when I began to look into these.

I'm the type of person that doesn't stop until I've solved all the issues.

I see everything as a jigsaw puzzle.

And I'm gonna make sure that it's still

senior years when I graduated and had much more time

to read books than I do now Having you know re -education

in some ways Into my brain and I've been very blessed by studying these things and my

wife is very appreciative of the fact that I now have An outlet on my website and she can sleep at night without

hearing me talk.

Well, praise God for that.

And so let's come to a definition of Libertarianism because

I know just from speaking with many Christians who

Are very passionate in one way or the other about This upcoming presidential

election that there seems to be a lot of ignorance as to what libertarianism

is.

People equate Libertarianism with liberalism very often and

not that they would view the libertarians as

Fiscally liberal.

They seem to have some kind of an understanding that Libertarians are for small government, but I

think that there is some confusion about.

A.

Libertarians endorsement of Socially and

morally unbiblical practices and ideologies and the government's

involvement Over what we are to think say and do.

I think that that's where a lot of the Confusion lies, but if

you could in your own words describe libertarianism and perhaps even

Define as a backdrop to that.

Capitalism and socialism.

The confusion is not entirely the fault of those who are confused on the term libertarianism and

part of the problem, of course is the fact that libertarianism as it has become more popular has

Reflected the trends of the masses and those conservative Christians like ourselves and like

many of the people we look up to.

In our circles, you know, including most eminently who's an individual who's been very critical of libertarianism

would be out older and When he looks out and looks for the definition of libertarianism, he

Immediately comes to the Libertarian Party, which is you know, an official institution or entity that

runs You know people for the nomination, you know at state and

national offices.

And you know, they look at the people that are representing libertarianism first.

Confusion that comes about is there's a failure to make a distinction between libertarian

theory independent of the party and The party itself and this would be it this would be the same as

confusing the meaning of Democracy as a theory that has been in existence since ancient Greece

and the Democratic Party today.

If we define all of our theories in terms of the parties that wear that label We're not going to get

very far in discovering, you know, what is true and what what doctrines are actually

represented by the label.

Oh, yeah, of course.

I'm sorry.

I'm sorry if I was interrupting you.

I was just going to say it's just like judging Republicanism.

By Rudy Giuliani, who is a spokesman for the Republican Party and was a mayor

for New York City for the Republican Party.

And he is Someone who is pro abortion.

He's pro Homosexual rights.

He marched in the gay rights parade.

So therefore if you want to use the same kind of broad brushing people should look at the

Republican Party and say These people are just all entirely in favor of abortion and homosexual activism.

Yeah, exactly, you know, it's the common confusion of or you know defining

Defining Christianity by Joel Osteen or someone that wears the label.

We have to always draw a distinction between the definitions that we're referring to and An

institution or entity or individual who wears that label?

So that's the first thing I would say.

The second thing I would say is it's simply that libertarianism has become corrected

you know in its in its formulations over the years in an internal sense, so those who have described

themselves as libertarians have internal debate about what it means and Of

course general sentiment if

the greater masses are going to refer to you know homosexuality or

To

identify liberal are not going to get

as much traction and we see this all the time in Christian circles as well.

Those who define Christianity in a more liberal less biblically centered way

are going to gain traction for the Because it's logical that Traction is gained by

it.

And so that's what I'm sorry of them as it is

confused because most people look at well How are the masses defining it?

Well, if you know anything about me, I don't much care for how the masses define things

I get to the root of the matter and a lot of times my general tendency is to dissent

whether that's socially religiously philosophically.

Now when I was a little kid I became

fascinated.

With the study of dinosaurs and fossils.

So therefore I knew that a paleontologist referred to something that was

very old ancient and so on.

So.

What does that mean in regard to paleo libertarianism?

How are you different?

And how is that?

Stream of thought.

That ideology different than what is commonly known as libertarianism today.

Yes.

Define libertarianism in a positive sense.

So let me do that and then I can sure then I can articulate what we're trying to.

What we're trying to communicate when we use that Italianism a

legal theory that has political ramifications, but it's a legal theory

and fundamental root.

It holds that that no man is allowed to initiate

aggression against the property of any other human being and if he does so then He

is he is acting in a criminal way so when we think back to the classical liberals or the

writers of you know, The Declaration of Independence things like that.

We always hear this phrase a man has a right to his life liberty and property

that they chew the weeds and get their hands

dirty and they define things like What is a right and what is property and what is life and things like

that?

And what they come up with is that what we mean when we say that man has a right to his practice

anybody Free that holds nobody's

allowed to do that.

You're not allowed to initiate aggression or it's

fundamentally a legal theory.

And then what the libertarian does is he applies it not only to the general citizens.

But also to the government a

certain amount of money from you in order that he may pay for the health care.

I'm

to an

individual.

How

does that

how I

want

to keep

that do

whatever you

want think

whatever you want.

There's it's to morality or anything like that.

So if they kind

of they did what they said, no, no, no, you you can't

we can't do that.

People refer to it as libertarianism is and

since having to do with aggression.

That means that libertarianism work with the social

conservatives.

We can I

Koreans are allowed libertines

or the social

libertarians or you know The

new libertarians that are anti

-conservative libertarians in

a bit social conservative.

We have

nothing again

charism and be

against libertarian.

Now, I know this is before your time, but I'm sure that you must have heard along your

studies some something about Barry Goldwater who would have been in the 1960s

a presidential candidate and he is very often

identified as a Conservative libertarian, would you think that that is an

accurate label of him?

And why would you only go back as far as the 1980s in regard to paleo

libertarianism?

Well paleo libertarianism is an empirical historical phenomenon and that's when the label was created.

Okay, he did by it was created by a set of people to it was created by

Murray Rothbard and Lou Rockwell.

Those are the ones that came up with the name and they actually created that name based on a

distinction in conservative circles by a Paul

Godfrey did.

If he said, okay, there's all these new and lobbyists that are coming out

calling themselves conservatives.

But we need to distinguish between this new conservatism and the old school Conservatism of the

1920s and 30s.

So what he did was he said, okay.

There's the neo -conservative.

What Lou Rockwell and Murray Rothbard did is they said, okay.

Well in the same way that Paul Godfrey is doing this.

We're also going to make the thing out regarding Barry Goldwater a that

he is being leaning a history

of American conservatism in the 20th century.

He was actually part of what Murray Rothbard called the new right the post World War two right and the right

that was distinct from the what he calls the old right

FDR's New Deal and

U .s.

And true Goldwater was part of the new right which is distinct from the old right and in

World War two is that dividing line.

So.

Going back to the the contrast between paleo libertarianism and

Just modern libertarianism, which just typically goes by the title libertarian like

Gary Johnson Who is running for president of the United States? would this be

primarily a Matter of Social and moral values that

would be the dividing line or is it something more?

Does it even go beyond that into?

The military or even economic policies.

What would be the contrast there other than the moral and social values?

Yeah, that's a really that's a really good question.

And this is something that I actually attempted to take on in a recent essay of mine.

There's various factors that you can see, you know, things like definitions are

Somewhat objective, you know, you could define things.

However, you want but the thing that I've come up with is You know, not only is there these coach on

there's also two other primary

that would make them distinct from.

You know what you might call neo -libertarianism you know, two of them include

Localism versus Nationalism in a in a you know in a non accusatory sense the

word by nationalism I don't mean like fascism or something.

I just mean as Distinct from from localism the the paleo libertarian.

They really want to focus on community orientedness Local of

the influence that the church has on the immediate neighborhoods around them things like that.

Whereas I've noticed that the neo -libertarian all they care about Is is You know

implementing what they consider some ways on some issues is very much more

libertine.

They're focusing on changing policy from Washington.

So a good example of this would be the gay marriage debate.

The paleo libertarian with federal government issuing a

mandate redefining marriage at a national level.

But the the neo -libertarians they do Praise that because they think that it's progress toward a more

in there according to their definitions.

You know, so we can get married according to whatever definition I

want to liberate the paleo libertarians is any nationalization of the definition.

They want things to be Local that would

be one issue

is the national it's

going

to be more

prosperous

Retardant and that is against, you

know, the moral code

and and we we do a lot of

these

criminal actions.

Yeah,

excellent.

We're going to go to a break right now.

And if anybody would like to join us on the air with a question of your own We already have several people waiting to have their

questions asked and answered.

But if you'd like to join them with a question of your own our email address is chris arnzen at gmail .com.

That's chris Arn z n at gmail .com.

And as I said earlier, please give us your first name your city and state and your country of residence

if you live outside of the USA and You may remain anonymous if it makes you feel more comfortable, but don't go

away.

We are going to be right back after these messages with CJ Engel.

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That's the private story.

If you just tuned us in our guest today for the first 90 minutes of the program

is CJ Engel founder and editor of reformed libertarian calm

post of the reformed libertarian Facebook page registered financial advisor in Northern California

and a self -defined or self -described Paleo libertarian and he

is addressing a Christian libertarian economists answers to can we rescue the

economy of the United States of America?

We're also talking about libertarianism in general and Contrasting it with

paleo libertarianism and our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Before I go to Some of our listeners who have questions I just wanted to ask you

about a couple of things in regard to some things you were mentioning before the break in.

You were contrasting the you were giving an example of a contrast between

someone like Gary Johnson and the Libertarian Party and a paleo libertarians understanding of

marriage and how the modern libertarians like Johnson

Seem to be very joyful over the federal government's redefining

of what marriage is opening up the gates to homosexuals to participate

in Legally recognized same -sex marriages which

obviously will eventually lead to all different kinds of Marriages like a

return of polygamy perhaps.

I can't imagine how that would not eventually become legal again in this nation.

And.

Other types of even more disturbing marital relationships.

And.

You were saying that one of the contrasts is between Federal

or local.

Would this be a similar issue to federal and state rights?

Contrast.

You know, I call them the national libertarians.

And again, I'm not what we would as a

matter of you

know.

The most central government can have the most impact on the most amount of people and so they want that

government.

Be it the national government or even via the the Internet and international government, you know.

They focus on, you know, what can those governments do to make things

better for you know.

Whatever definition of liberty, you know, they're employing which might include things like, you know so -called legalization of

gay marriage.

But the you know, they are libertarian or you know.

Just that the old -school libertarian

Governments are safer when you when you take things to a national international level and you focus on policymaking in those

arenas you would invite.

You know big brother or big government in and so many other areas.

In the economy in social engineering and education and you know various other bureaucracies.

What the appeal of

taking things at a much broader level is going to be dangerous in the long run to individual and

local?

Sovereignty, I think that there's a lot to be said about these distinctions the fact that you

know, the the localists and the you know, the Secessionist the nullification.

Advocates, you know those that those that are willing to say no to federal government overreach.

You know, all of that comes from the

United States Terry and appreciates.

You know more localist movements and more emphasis on local politics and communities and

they do a friend of mine.

I don't know if you're familiar with William Norman Grigg.

But.

William Norman Grigg at one time was the editor for the New American magazine.

He describes himself as a Christian constitutionalist libertarian and.

He during a discussion years ago as my guest on iron sharpens iron was

saying that he is not in favor of Same -sex marriage,

but he does not believe the government has any place being involved in our

marriages.

Now I can have some sympathy with that, but I don't know how that would protect Spouses from

bigamists and things like that if the government was completely removed from a marital issue.

But but beyond that if we want to just put that aside.

If if we were to agree with that.

Understanding what I what I don't understand about somebody like Gary Johnson and modern libertarians who

were in favor of same -sex marriage.

Is that it is enforcing legally?

The recognition of Same -sex marriage as a marriage when there are citizens of this country

perhaps even the majority who reject that notion and because of cherished

religious beliefs.

View that as something that's an abomination and an evil and wicked and it's one thing if your

neighbor.

Chooses to have some kind of ceremony with his same -sex partner or her same -sex partner that is

called a marriage.

It's one thing if that happens but when we who are Christians are forced to view that

legally as a marriage and it involves our own lives in some way and especially if it involves

perhaps our livelihoods and Whatever kind of a business that we may have.

That seems to be the the opposite understanding to me of a libertarian that they would.

Want the government to legally declare something as binding?

Such as a same -sex marriage it if I don't know if I'm making sense to you.

But if you could comment on that best as you can.

Yeah.

People can find it by searching propaganda phraseology gay marriage legalization and

What I pointed out in this short post is that the whole idea of

the movement of marriage legalization or gay marriage legalization Is actually propaganda language

because two people coming together having a ceremony calling it Whatever they want.

It's not illegal people can do that.

You can go right now down to You know Under some right park and

you can you can do this thing and you can call it a marriage.

There's nothing illegal about that.

Happening is is it's just not licensable out in

in liberal circles and in some Neolibertarian circles to make it licensable.

But as you know a paleo libertarian or I would call a true libertarian There's no right to

have a license.

You know that we can't there's there's no natural right that we have to go to the government and demand that they give us a

marriage license whether that's for Gay marriage or even traditional biblical marriage, you know

I can't go down and demand that the government give me a license or you know, my fiance and I right now.

There's no right that we have to do that.

And so the whole the whole movement is it's just a cultural.

You know, I would call it part of a cultural war getting the masses to change their language and focusing on

politics.

But it's all you know, it might even be called a sham.

You know, it's just all this fake movement.

It doesn't actually matter because there's nothing illegal about people doing things and you know in this

area calling it What they want so that that would be my comment on that.

No, I don't know if you are familiar with my friend.

William Norman Grigg.

Oh, yes.

Wonderful journalist.

Okay.

Do you agree with his position that the government has no should have no involvement in

marriages.

To begin with I.

Do agree with yeah, that would be the libertarian position that there's no but let me clarify.

You know something on this.

There's no role for the government.

Two people are married.

So that would be the libertarian position.

There's no I think there's a complete would it's completely a legitimate marriage if

two people come together without the government.

And in History passed when two people came together and there was no I believe that

those people were legally married in the eyes of God.

I don't think a government is needed in the equation of marriage.

However, if there is some sort of contest or arbitration needed on

Property if there's some sort of dispute when it comes to you know, those types of things well,

that's the role of the agency in society that has the

ability to arbitrate between you know conflict in that way and so there's

there's a debate belongs to The public square or whether it

belongs to the church and the church has not been given the right to oversee marriage.

That would be the Catholic view.

The Calvinist view is that marriage is a covenant and it's a covenant between a man his wife.

And God the church has nothing to do with it.

So the the only rule that the government would have a

related dispute or arbitration.

That's what the government would come in and and try to resolve those things.

But when it comes to the definition of marriage itself, there's no need for the government to Define it or

verify it or license it or anything like that.

No, you would not think that the government should be able to ever step in to

press charges and perhaps even arrest and fine or Imprison a bigamist who

behind his wife's back had a secret marriage and a secret family and that type of the thing.

Well, see, yeah, that would be.

I think those types of libertarian

theory of Contracts and I wrote a lot of article in this if anyone's listening and they want to write this down and look it

up.

I wrote should adultery be legal a libertarian view and so this this comes right into the very same thing about

whether you know You know, whether there's a government role in preventing adultery or giving consequence

to an adulterous Partner in the relationship and you might find interest in reading this yourself but the

conclusion that I come to is I don't see a natural need for the government to

Prevent this type of thing.

If there's any property involved and there's any breach of contract Then the government would have to come in and enforce that but

no if if a man has a secret marriage He does something like that that can be resolved

between the those three individuals some witnesses Parts of the community and that needs to be

Resolved in a peaceful manner, but there's no need for the government to come in and use force because that's all.

Yes.

The only tool that the government has that's the only role that they would play if they were to play anything.

If everything else beyond force can be handled without the government.

So if you can think of a situation in which what is needed then?

Yes, you could make a case for the government being involved there in an

adulterous self and I have a carefully reasoned.

Okay, let's go to some of our listeners.

This is the first time in quite a while that we have had a listener Submit a question from

Germany, but we have a listener in Heidelberg, Germany.

And I'm sorry if I'm mispronouncing your name, but it's Amani or Omni a M a n

I.

Amani from Heidelberg writes with so many questions about the non

libertarian views of Gary Johnson.

What are your views of Darryl Castle.

Not the Constitution Party.

I guess he's asking you to contrast Darryl Castle between Him as a person

and and the party he's running under.

I'm not really sure why he worded it that way.

I'm also Find it interesting that he viewed he identified Gary Johnson as a non

libertarian.

But if you could answer as best you can the question.

Yeah, you know, unfortunately, I haven't taken much time to read to dig into you know.

His positions on things.

But you mean I've read about him.

You mean Darryl Castle or Gary Johnson?

Oh, yeah.

He seems like a great guy and it seems to me You know in this Controversial, but he

said it too.

He's more libertarian than the libertarian candidate.

So I am I I have I think I think he's a great guy, but you know, Murray Rothbard.

You know, who's one of the premier or preeminent?

Libertarian theorists in the libertarian movement, you know, he once noted the fact of it and and I

think Christian.

He judges self -labeled libertarian far more partially and you know rigorously

than he would a you know.

A non -libertarian or someone who calls himself a constitutionalist for the non -libertarian, you know

focus of Libertarian appreciation for someone like that would be is he going to increase or decrease

the Liberty?

You know the road to Liberty and I think Darryl Castle is someone who?

Wants to uphold the Constitution much more, you know, it's a huge

restraint on you know Government God do think that his you

know tendencies are in the right direction and unfortunately I haven't

studied him, you know as much as I should have but the other part of that is we need to judge Libertarians or

self -labeled libertarian much more harshly because they're the ones that are representing or Declaining to

represent so when you have

someone like Gary Johnson

We need to look for even in in Castle and point those out and

you know.

Point out the various ways in which he is better than the Republicans and the Democrats.

But if you have someone like Gary Johnson who had a whole bunch of you know, a litmus

Series of things that can be said against him and contradictions with a libertarian ideology.

We need to be all over that because those are the things that people are Interpreting as libertarian and a good analogy of

this is Christianity there are certain people who wear the label of Christian or even even wear the label

of Reformed and yet they dissent in some very serious areas from reformed or

Christian theology.

And those people need to be You know rigorously as being

Because why because people interpret those things as Christianity and it's very misleading

can be said about libertarian.

If there's someone that's claiming to be a libertarian like like Gary Johnson and you know The whole bunch of things that can be said against

him.

I think we need to be do you agree with Darrell Castle's assessment?

Of himself that he is more libertarian than Gary Johnson is.

Well, that's I said, I don't have the knowledge.

But I think in some areas and you know, I think I think what motivated that comment of his was

toward Gary Johnson about whether or not a

business is allowed to discriminate based on you know religious issues or

Decide how position on

this thing Gary Johnson does

that right?

Yeah, I mean from what I understand about libertarianism

is that.

The the competition in a free market is really what we should

Allowed to dictate people's choices on How wisely and how stupidly

they run their businesses?

We shouldn't have the government enforcing a restaurant to

serve everyone if they don't want to and if they become notorious for being

racists or some strange thing that they're doing then let them go out of business

because of it, but Am I right in the way that I'm describing this.

Exactly and see that that really comes down to the meaning of libertarianism.

I defined it in our first couple minutes should the government have the right to aggress against the business owner

and force him against his will to serve a customer that the government deems

You know worthy of or you know being of being served.

And the libertarian answer is no now.

Maybe that business owner is doing it because he hates black people or he hates Gays or

he hates people with that are left -handed or whatever stupid reason that you could give.

It doesn't matter because the business who he thinks is best.

Now on a moral sense.

Let's say he's hating this guy because he's Jewish.

Very immoral motivation for not even though it's the moral

for that man to do it.

It's also immoral for us to lobby the state to use force against that man.

Okay, we do have.

Jeff in Clinton Township, Michigan who says what are your guests thoughts

regarding theonomy and Reconstructionism.

And it's evident increase in our popular this in popular discussion now.

That's very interesting that he says that he asked this because Although I am NOT a theonomist or

a reconstructionist.

I do have a number of friends who are.

Both.

Theonomists and reconstructionists I know Brilliant authors and Christians who

I really have gained a lot of insight on different issues that they've written about.

I've interviewed theonomists and reconstructionists and it's interesting

that a number of them that I know personally have always gravitated

politically towards libertarianism when there seems to be a A polar

opposite Contrast between the two thoughts, but I have

known Theonomists who strongly backed Ron Paul

when he was running for president in the primaries and so on.

And I you know, so there that is a reality that theonomy and reconstruction

Doesn't seem to be apparently opposed to libertarianism, even though it may on the face value look

like it should.

So if you could respond to Jeff from Clinton Township, Michigan this question

about what are your thoughts regarding theonomy and reconstruction?

Yeah, let's something out for the record and I want people to really

internalize this because I think it's very

Theonomy Lawson

or Gary North what they'll say is

Theonomic outlook on political theory or a secularist or a paganist or something outlook on

Political theory.

There's only two views you and the secular view now in that sense.

They would say okay.

Well, if your libertarianism is coming from the moral standard of the Bible Well, then you're a theonomist

and so a lot of people will call people like myself and other you know Libertarians who who read on the foundation of

the word as Theonomist for merely that reason.

I don't think that's the best definition of theonomy because as The case proves it doesn't actually make a

distinction between my position and their position so I think it's better to find theonomy as

the Perspective governments today in our new covenant

context are morally obligated.

The best definition of yes, you know and so Under that definition, which I think is more

appropriate and it describes, you know, the the big three reconstructionist RJ rush Dooney Greg Watson and

Gary North it describes them in a way that Leaves me out of it.

You know It leaves a lot of people who don't think that the the government's they are morally obligated to enforce that code.

It makes a distinction that that creates an ability for us to actually have a productive conversation.

So once we define it like that I would say that I don't think that governments they are morally obligated to

enforce that code for the very reason that The New Testament was a new covenant

it's in the covenant theology and of course, there's people who would dissent from that view because

there's there's two primary views when it comes to Covenant theology in the reformed world.

The first is the old it's

just a new Administration.

Jesus is the new administrator of this same covenant with the reformed Baptist perspective in my

perspective 1889 confession and Is

that the new covenant is actually not just the same covenant with a new administrator it

is actually a different covenant and since it is a different cover

gate governments today and.

As far as Jay Gresham Machen who I opened up the program I opened up the program with a quote

by him that you have that the the masthead of your Facebook

page.

Founder of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church, although he pre predates The label of Libertarian.

Do you know enough about his political views?

Where you could tell whether or not he would have fit into your category of politics.

Yeah, that's a tricky one because everyone wants to claim Machen, right?

Just like everyone would want to claim Calvin.

But you know, yes from my perspective my readings of him and the way I interpret him I would say that yes, I think of

all of the you know, reform thinkers, you know in a major sense I

think that Machen is absolutely probably one of the closest.

There's other ones that are You know far less known like one of Ron Paul's legislative aides

in the 1970s.

Actually, he had two of them in the 1870s.

Ron Paul during his time in in Congress he had Gary North who of course was a Reconstructionist

and he also had another individual by the name of John Robin and John Robin is a

Follower.

It's a funny dynamic because if you know, this is kind of internal baseball.

I had Gary North who was a follower of Cornelius Van

Til constructionism in the United States namely R .J. Westjuni.

You had Gary North.

Who's you know following in that line and then you have Gary North arch nemesis John Robin?

Yeah with the Trinity Foundation.

Yes, and he was a disciple of Gordon Clark.

Yes was Van Til's arch nemesis.

So it's a really funny dynamic that Ron Paul had these two legislative aides that kind of fed his head.

I know I read an article by Gary North once in which he said they sat at opposite ends of the office and they would

look Over from each other's cubicles and they're not really speak like

people like, you know, John Robbins lesser -known people I would say that that Machen is probably one of the closest reform

thinkers and The reason I wouldn't call him, you know,

I'd be fair and because he wasn't around when it was, you know more.

Specifically formulated in the years and John Robbins just went home

to be with the Lord I would say I don't know two years ago.

I can't remember exactly.

I'm sorry.

I mean, he doesn't eat.

Okay.

But yeah that he was quite a controversial figure.

Yes, he was.

I did benefit from some of the things they published though because they published things some of the things they Produced

the Trinity Foundation were from the 19th century and some of this stuff was very good that they brought back

into print.

But um We are going to our break right now and we are

believe me.

We're going to get to the actual issue of economics.

That was supposed to be our main thing, but we needed to really Thoroughly explain I think from our guests

own mouth a definition of terms here and hopefully we will be able to

adequately address the economic issue.

Can the United States of America be rescued from from our Economic

disaster that we are in.

And if you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own.

Our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

And In fact, why don't we I before we go to the break?

I'll read you a question from a listener in Mastic Beach, Long Island, New York.

And you could have time to reflect an answer when we come back.

Tyler from Mastic Beach Long Island, New York.

He writes I have to enlarge his Question because I'm going blind and the typeface

on this is very small.

Let's see here.

Tyler from Mastic Beach, Long Island says is the reason why our country in such a mess.

Because of the relinquishing of power slow or slowly Over the federal

government in which does not honor Christ.

And perhaps you could think about that when we're going to our break now and We'll get your answer when we return

if anybody else would like to join us.

It's Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Don't go away.

We're gonna be right back with CJ Engel and Christian libertarianism.

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Welcome back.

This is Chris Arnzen if you just tuned us in our guest for the first 90 minutes of the program with

about a half hour to go is CJ Engel and He is a paleo

libertarian and He is discussing how the United States can be

rescued from its economic crisis.

He is founder and editor of reformed libertarian calm host of the reformed libertarian

Facebook page registered financial advisor from Northern, California.

And as I said, he is a paleo libertarian and he's also a reformed Baptist just like

yours truly Adherent to the 1689 London Baptist Confession, but I'm sure that there are a lot of reformed

Baptists who are vehemently opposed to Christian libertarianism or libertarianism of any

other Description and it may be that many of them just aren't

Understanding it correctly.

But we just heard before that someone who reformed Baptists

have a great deal of respect for Al Mohler president of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary seems to have a

lot of objections to libertarianism.

But according to our guests, that's because he's judging the ideology of libertarianism by the

libertarian party.

Which is quite socially and morally repugnant in its views that

have a lot of opposition to what the scriptures mandate and.

I.

Happen to have a lot of respect for dr. Mohler and have had him on this program and look forward to having him back.

But perhaps we could have him Have a conversation with a Christian libertarian at some

point so we can make sure that all things are properly defined and

that there is a mutual understanding of What's being said here?

We Are going to be discussing specifically the economic views of our guest

in a moment and how he thinks that perhaps American can be rescued from

Devastation that we are surely heading for if we're not already in it, but before we go to that issue as

you may recall CJ Tyler from Aztec Beach, Long Island, New York asked is the reason why our country

in such a mess because of the wishing of power slowly over to the

federal government and I think is what he meant to say Which does not honor Christ?

CJ my.

Basic answer is yes, and then we have to define what honoring Christ means.

I think one of the problems that you know.

Especially American Christian that it is honorable to Christ to

elect in.

Who is very good at speaking in biblical terms and knows the

right phrases to use and all of that thing?

You know and a lot of people consider this the Christian candidate.

The problem is is that God?

Works through means he you know.

He works to repeat the scripture

that has memorized everything about it and yet they he implements a socialist Economy on the

basis of his Christianity.

Well, that's not honorable to cry.

I think the answer to his question is yes, but we

have to and what happens if you disobey

That or contradict it via government intervention to the you know.

It's the honor of being not necessarily to you know.

Invite someone on to the scene who is who knows the scripture and yet contradicts it in his

government policies so I think that's really important to emphasize because a lot of times people get swept up

in.

The catchphrases the candidates use or the narratives that they use about us being this great Christian nation.

But if they're not going to let the economy be free and let capitalism work and it doesn't

matter how much they quote scripture it's still going to fail a good example of this would be in the Puritan area in the

era at the very beginning in the 1600s and that Gary North actually has a very good

essay on this and I think you know.

Don't quote me on this.

But I think it may have been part of his dissertation or something important that he did during his college career.

But he he observed the fact that their socialism failed that the Puritans had a for a time.

They had a socialist economy and it really caused a lot of starvation.

Now was that honorable to Christ?

Well, these Puritans had very good theology, you know, they had some of the most, you know

appreciative theology in in the history of the development of theological thought and yet because they

implemented a type of economy that wasn't consistent with the way God made human beings.

That's it and it cost communities to recover from that

experiment.

So the answer to but then we need to look

at can the government create prosperity by

fiat?

And since the government is doing that now, so that is one of

the chief those

use use reasons

to you know.

What would it mean for us to not honor God when it comes to economics?

Okay.

Well you in your website or on your website.

Describe yourself as a Subscriptionist to the Austrian school of

economic theory if you could explain exactly what that means.

Yes.

Economics and libertarianism and a lot of times to same things or don't

realize I think one of the most important in

economics is Descriptive.

It describes what are the consequences of intervening into

the individual human being is going to

desire This or want

to do

this

with his.

Austrian economics

and libertarianism

and origin is in

Vienna.

Call menger

with

the individual

which he is good.

It's going to

satisfy

they get

out of bed

in the morning.

Economics.

And that's why they

compare Austrian

economics to

or

generate

economic reasoning instead of empirical observation.

Now a lot of not only Libertarians that I am familiar with but

even some more traditional conservatives would say that

the neocons the neoconservatives are fiscally very close in many

ways to the liberal Democrats and even socialists and that they

are really.

Both parties are really driving and have driven this country into

Levels of debt that are insane that in some way enslave us

to the whims of foreign nations and.

That.

They not neither party really has a fiscally

responsible way of dealing with the United States government

and Basically has got us close to another depression.

What is the your view as a paleo -libertarian in regard

to what is wrong with.

With government spending on both sides of the aisle and how can it be remedied

the problem with government spending is what?

It's doing is it's sucking up resources live in a world

where there's only so many Goods that can be employed to satisfy man

individuals desires.

Okay, so what happens when there is no government spending whatsoever.

That's how we first analyze you know the way the economy works is.

Individuals are you know?

You know, they're using goods for the ends that satisfy their desires.

They can trade with each other and things like that.

What happens when the government gets involved in this spends and a lot of times?

There's this surface level criticism that looks at the fact.

You know our our children and our children's children are going to have to repay this debt.

And that's that's a you know, that's a good criticism.

But it doesn't get to the root of the matter and the root of the matter is the fact that what what's happening is.

They're actually sucking up our capital.

They're sucking up our future prosperity by spending it today.

Government doesn't invest in a way that.

And yet what we call a prosperity is how well an economy can satisfy the desires

of individuals.

That's what we call prosperity.

So what happens when a government spends scarce resources is that it uses them in a way that

Individuals would not have you when the

Democrats and the Republicans spend, you know to the tune of trillions of dollars.

What they're doing is they're spending trillions of dollars of resources in ways that are at contradiction

With the way they would have been used in a free market.

Now one of one of the things that I have heard even very conservative Christian

libertarians say is that government spending is out of control even regarding

the military and one of the things That that has me concerned

About libertarianism in general one of the reasons perhaps I haven't

Made the full plunge into it.

I have libertarian leanings as I'm learning about these issues but I would not fully

identify myself as any kind of libertarianism yet, not

saying that I'm certain that I never will do that, but one of the things

that Keeps this nation, I believe Safe

is the fact that the world knows that we could you know, if we needed to

we could annihilate the entire population of the world many times over and.

That.

Looming threat is what keeps us safe.

I'm not saying that we're going to do that or should do that.

I'm just saying that the looming threat just like a home where

every member of the household is a trained marksman and It is known in the

neighborhood that there is a lot of ammunition and a lot of weaponry in that home with people

ready and willing and able to use it there's very little likelihood that

there's going to be somebody climbing through the window to steal a television or Do bodily harm to anybody in that house

now?

That's basically on a broader scale what I'm talking about regarding national security

and yet as you may be one of those voices that say that the spending

on Military is out of control.

What what is your view on that?

Well, yeah, my perspective is absolutely that the spending is out of control and the way I would answer this to you and To

my former self and the many others who come from this, you know Conservative background

it really is not just a libertarian issue per se

because if you look at you know, one of the flagship publications of you know The so -called paleo

can still be the American conservative the American

conservative comm and it was started by Pat Buchanan.

Who was really one of the most popular members of the paleo conservative movement in the early 1990s

those?

Conservative.

You know most you know, some of the journalists you can find ex

-members of the CIA people like Phil Giraldi.

Publishes over there, you know, Daniel Erickson is one of their best, you know foreign policy

Commentators, but these are conservatives.

These these individuals wouldn't identify as libertarian and what they always point out is that if

if the question is should the government cut then we need to realize that.

Ability of destroying the entire planet like 200 times over.

So if if if your view is what capability is other countries

knowing that the United States government has the ability to do that.

Then do we really need to do it 200 times over and if we cut back that capability to destroying the

planet only?

100 times over well amount of money and scarce resources, which is

the true.

You know root of the problem say that our military can

threaten.

You know the entire world in in case in case that and that's only cutting it back.

And you know, I would argue that you should cut it back as far as possible, you know.

Because it's unnecessary to you know, you only need to do is threaten the world one time over.

That's your standard of safeness.

Then you don't need 200.

You don't need 100.

You don't need 50 or 25.

You only need you know, one time over is all you need to make that to make yourself known in that way.

So that's the first thing I would say.

But the second thing I would say too is since we already have all of those resources that have been spent in

that way.

Do we really need to up our spending every year to not stop at 200 to go to you know?

500 times over and to build all these new equipment.

Why did why do we need state -of -the -art already have

stuff?

Can we cut on spending and still be safe?

The answer is in you know, an unequivocal and without a doubt Yes with exclamation points

now.

Could not the military still Take

very good care of its soldiers and make sure that those Who have boots on the

ground and various places who are actually? face to face with the enemy

that they are as protected as possible with state -of -the -art equipment and that they are

taken care of after the fact when they are Sacrificed limbs and

eyesight and hearing and and all kinds of things for their their country.

Couldn't we still do that?

And even spend more on those specific things if other things that the government is wasting money on

Were to cease If they were just if the government was to stop The the

billions and trillions of dollars that are being spent in other insane and nonsensical ways.

Couldn't the government's still very well take care of the government and in the military's needs and take care of

the military's needs.

I'm sorry.

You know, I think can accomplish the safety of our troops

In a much better and more efficient manner is to pull them out of areas Where they're not needed

immediately.

I mean we have a hundred and eighty bases around the world places that you wouldn't

even begin to imagine and Those you know, I I'd say, you know, 85 to

90 percent of those places aren't considered actual threat.

You know.

One of the more obvious, you know One of the more obvious places is in the South China Sea and we're you know

Having these conflicts over these islands that are over there.

But there's no threat to the United States national security and this is something that's been emphasized time and again

on Conservative outlets like the American conservative and people like Phil Giraldi, you know ex

-CIA Type people, you know, they serve they serve they offer no threat to the United States

national security so I think that if you want to protect the safety of the troops, the first thing

you need to do is You know pull them out of those locations and get them out of harm's way because there's no

no purpose in them being there and Recognize this and though a lot of the troops were for Ron Paul not

because Ron Paul, you know Hated the troops or hated the military think but because well,

let's be a lot more cautionary.

It's human labor and human capital, you know.

And this in this we can do is to pull that out and you know

Cut the military budget by leaps and bounds and you'd still have the ability

Safe and all that so it's very dangerous to expect the government

to cut one area.

That's the more realistic way of cutting government.

Now there seems to be a lot of libertarians who are Against

strictly guarded borders of the United States where it's.

What's your view on that?

Yeah, I think the border the border question can come down to you know.

Two different types of questions.

The one question is whether you know, it's theoretically or actually practically.

There should be borders or whether there should be zero, you know borders at all.

That's a question of theory and borders.

The other question is whether there's actually a viable Military see

any military threat at the border.

There's nothing unlibertarian about

that.

People that are on the other side don't have a natural right.

We contested.

No pain, I think

that's

it.

So now

obviously

though.

You don't see a military threat at our borders now.

But if there was virtually, no guarding or or protection

of our borders there certainly would be eventually.

And there are those who believe that there have been Muslims with

less than honorable Motivations coming across the borders and so on.

Obviously that there are.

There obviously are dangerous people who have committed heinous crimes Who have

come across the borders and so on.

So there are obviously some of the families who have had their

children murdered by Illegal aliens coming over the border and so on might take objection

to a lax border position.

My perspective on that is those things need to be handled in the same way as any other crime would be handled.

They need to be responded to in a specific Small and local way and there's no need to

nationalize the problem.

I think that invites Aggression invites conflict at an international level and I think

you know things like criminality are Much better and more efficient and more safely handled on an

individual and local level instead of you know you know acting You know in

abroad and think we need to

respond to crime as it comes to us and not at a national level.

I think you know the government has a tendency to abuse those types of powers when

given it.

I think you could find examples of that all throughout the 20th century.

Especially it was the era of statism when the state was seen as the great

power which you know was

you know? Historic under the banner of safe

opportunity to employ the words of Machen when he talks about the fact that we live under a specter

Of of statism in which safety is more important than Liberty.

And I think yes, there is dangers in living in a you know

Liberty, but it's far more safe safer to live under those threat of

an almighty state.

And I think that when you nationalize the problem you invite more conflict you lead to

economic Disasters and you also lead to a

police state and things of that nature as well.

You know I think a lot of the you know Conflicts between the state the police forces and and the

people today comes directly from the fact that there's too many Unnecessary while there's too much

economic Poverty that's coming about because of the government the

more the problem well if

you could just summarize and wrap up what you

most want.

Etched on our listeners hearts and minds before they leave this broadcast.

And just so our listeners know we have Mike gate us from solid ground Christian books joining us for the last half hour of the

program.

CJ had to leave earlier than expected today, but if you could.

Summarize what you most want to leave our listeners with in about two minutes time.

Yeah, I think I think the most important thing you know for me is Always draw a

distinction between You know the theory itself and the most popular

advocate.

We should be especially in tune with the dangers of Confusing

theory with its you know most popular Advocates you know who the masses like to

follow we shouldn't be.

You know falling into that trap, and I'd say that libertarianism has been massively confused.

And you know that's not always the fault that before, but you know

go to my site read I'm you know I'm a stickler for definition.

I'm a stickler for getting things very Precise and that's one of the things that I like to focus on.

So you know I think people should know about libertarianism.

Is that it's chiefly a legal theory based on a preceding ethical?

And I think when you think of libertarianism like that you realize that it defines Liberty in terms of

justice and the right to life liberty and property.

And I think it's the most ethical and it's the most and I

think that I should.

Make.

Have you make it clear where you made part company from Gary Johnson and the Libertarian Party.

You are strongly pro -life and believe that unborn children need to be protected from murderers.

Don't you?

Absolutely, I think of it as a very simple philogism.

A murder is defined.

The taking of one's life.

And an unjust way is living.

Therefore to take his life is murder.

Within that I think that's entirely and the principles of

libertarianism.

Well, I thank you so much for being our guest today CJ angle I look forward to having you back on the program at some point.

And I want to let our listeners know that the website you could go to to find out more about CJ Engel and reformed

libertarianism or paleo libertarianism is reformed libertarian calm

Reformed libertarian calm and you can also go to CJ angle calm.

That's the letter C as in Carl or Charlie J.

Jay a why?

Angle e n Gel calm.

Thanks so much CJ and hope to have you back as I said some point in the future.

I'd be glad to do it again.

Thanks for having me Chris.

Hey, my pleasure and we'll be getting your recording of the program at some point today.

God willing.

Okay, God bless you take care, thank you and coming up next.

Brothers and sisters and ladies and gentlemen is our friend Mike Gadosh of solid ground Christian books

one of the sponsors of this broadcast.

He's gonna be letting us know about some exciting new projects that are gonna be hot off the press God willing very

soon.

So don't go away.

We're gonna be right back with Mike Gadosh of solid ground.

I.

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Mike gayosh who is a founder and director of solid grand christian books which can be found on

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And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to iron sharpens iron.

My first pastor my dear friend and sponsor of iron sharpens iron mike gadosh.

Well, thank you.

Chris.

Can you hear me?

Okay.

Oh, I can hear you.

Fine.

I'm, uh honored to be with you.

I know that we don't have too much time, but um let me share with you a couple of items that are

hot that are coming right hot off the presses.

The um, Volume that is going to be coming out lord willing next week is by a man.

You've interviewed a few times tony.

Miano.

Yes Tony is uh published a published a book through me entitled cross

encounters a decade of gospel conversations.

And um, it is a masterful book oh, just an incredible

amount of material that covers pretty much every aspect.

Imagine dealing with street preaching and.

Um.

Handing out tracks going to malls speaking at abortion clinics.

Um, he has a lot of practical tips in terms of even legal matters.

Tony himself was a police officer for 20 years.

Know the law themselves

in a specific area and uh, tony's been

able to show them that way and

um, and tony is just patterned

after the.

The genius of it.

Oh, yeah.

One of the men who has worked alongside of uh of tony.

In fact, there are several men that have worked alongside of tony and they've all spoken and i've seen tony in

action that.

He just has a boldness.

And a compassion.

For the gospel in our

day.

To be able to

get this book a decade.

Yes.

He is really trying to transform.

The entire Ministry known as street preaching or street evangelism because

he takes it very seriously.

He does not believe in mavericks and lone wolves Who go out there with zero

training with without a church?

Approving of what they're doing just to stand on a soapbox and scream at people.

He's Very strong in believing in the accountability of a street preacher

to a local.

Uh church and their elders and that's one of the that's one of the reasons why i'm so excited about the book and about.

He's made enemies along the way and um.

And that's okay.

Uh.

Usually the people make no enemies are doing nothing.

And um, and he's obviously stirring waters and shape

the boldness With which he goes forward with the gospel.

Lance quinn is a good friend and he's now senior pastor of thousand oaks bible church in thousand oaks,

california.

He was uh, The assistant for john macarthur for many years and he knows tony very very well.

And this is what he says about the book.

Is that tony's.

Tony miano's book.

Cross encounters is a gripping account of actual conversations between a gospel pleading evangelist

And those who desperately need to hear the good news that jesus saves.

Knowing myself tony personally and about his ministry of open air preaching.

I'm genuinely thankful for him.

And others like him who stand boldly on the front lines Of the world's hostile unbelief and yet who

remain as christian preachers steadfastly unafraid To lovingly proclaim salvation by faith

alone in christ alone.

Would to god that there were many more like tony who risk in that inevitable ridicule for their faith.

And um, i'm just uh, very thankful for the opportunity to be able to work Work with tony and getting

this book of those who will go

forward in a variety of ways.

I mean not everybody is called to stand on a street corner and preach but The opportunity of being able to

give out an appropriate even in a

very brief conversation that you may have with them in an airplane or Or in the

mall or wherever you might happen, by the way, I just uh have to give a brief

plug to.

Our friends who are running the g3 conference and i'm so glad i'm thrilled to learn today

that you are going to be there as well.

Manning a booth or a table for solid ground christian books.

Yeah, hopefully a lot more than a table.

I'm looking uh, i'm gonna try to take over the place.

Well, I think i'll be happy to just give me a corner somewhere in the room and i'll be uh, i'll be very happy.

Well, I just want to thank uh, pastor josh bice for Enabling me to go

to the uh conference and to Have an exhibitor's booth

there and i'll be uh Right next to the alliance of confessing evangelicals table

and they Have asked me to help them out as well at their table, and i'm just so

thankful to the generosity of all folks including uh some

Very dear friends and brethren in christ who helped to sponsor this program who wanted to make sure that I got down

there uh for all my expenses to be paid, uh to

facilitate that and I can never thank all of you folks enough for this.

I'm looking forward to with great anticipation being at the g3 conference January 19th to the

21st in atlanta, georgia.

And some of the speakers include paul washer steven. J. Lawson d .a. Carson vody balkan.

Dr. James r white Tim challis conrad m. Bayway there goes a name from the past

pastor.

Mike.

Yeah phil johnson of grace to you ministries.

Uh, and uh many more.

I mean this is one of the largest lineups for a conference i've ever heard of.

And most of these speakers have been on my program.

And i'm going to try to get those that haven't been on the program on very soon Prior to the

the the conference and the conference website is g3 conference .com G

the number three conference .com.

But what else do you have that's ready to get off the press?

By.

There I just today was contacted by a lady Who has

been working on bringing back some of the old works, which of course is something that solid ground is

best known for um, her name is miller foray and She has

already had published through banner of truth Jewels of john newton amazing grace

for each day of the year and another book called the heart of horatious daily meditations from

the writings of horatious bonner.

And um, she is approached me about publishing the possibility of publishing two new

titles.

One is called mornings with mcduff.

And uh, john ross mcduff gotland.

He was born 1818.

And um, he was a tremendously gifted man Spurgeon said of

him for sound doctrine presented scripturally and devotionally with its application to the christian

life.

You cannot go beyond mcduff.

And she has worked on again mornings with mcduff And

in the providence of god today and just today

my son And his wife came home with their little baby.

Uh, lily kate who was born on on the Sunday morning and

jonathan has been reading mcduff and has been Overwhelmed by a

work called the bow in the cloud.

And he received the copy that he's been reading from his father -in -law.

And uh, and he had asked me about mcduff and I told him I said, oh I said, yeah I said i've known about mcduff for years.

I've read his works and I said he's just tremendous.

Well, then I hear from I get an email from up from this Dear lady

who is looking for somebody to publish this book on mornings, which was

immediate.

She was she was blown away.

She couldn't believe.

What I told her about the content, you know the fact that here we have all my son and I have been just uh

reveling in mcduff's devotional writings a

brevity and a beauty all together In the writings of jr mcduff and you can

find his writings available in Smaller packages, but what this

lady has done is put together a full year's readings uh selected from

his uh, his devotional writings and I told her

citation that I was going to delightedly Uh pick up this problem

that she's also got ready to go which I'm, not as familiar with him though.

What i've heard about him has been very favorable is james smith.

Uh, james smith was actually do you know who james smith was.

No.

No, I do not.

He pastored the new park street church in london.

From.

1841 until 1850.

And you you know who followed him.

Charles adams spurgeon.

Exactly.

And um Smith was a very gifted writer.

He is.

Uh, his unpublished autobiography is published on grace james website.

And um, this is a book called journeys Journeying through the

seasons

on these two projects and they may be able to uh

in september.

If she's as far along as it looks like she is with these books and they're ready to go to press.

Um, we could have them out as early as the beginning of september.

Theologically, but they're and

they're very warm.

Experientially.

And what i'll try to and

um and be able to get.

Well, it's always good to know that there is.

A ministry such as yours where you don't have to break out in a sweat

when going through the Catalog on the website for solid ground christian books

wondering if Something that you're purchasing is going to not only poison your mind or the minds of somebody

else Because it's such a trustworthy source or resource for the

best in christian literature and it's such a shame that Uh, so many of

the christian book outlets that you that are available on the internet and even

Some of the local stores, although that is a the local christian bookstore is a vanishing breed,

but uh, but uh.

It is true though that uh quite a number of them belong to be out of business or deserve to be out of

business because as hank anagraph used to Appropriately say that uh, most christian

bookstores should have a sign hanging over the door.

That's enter at your own risk.

Uh, but uh, it's it's i'm just so happy that whenever somebody is asking about a

place to To find good books I can immediately Uh, two websites come to

mind solid ground books .com Solid ground books .com and also

cvbbs .com our friends at cumberland valley bible book service cv bbs .com.

They've been faithful we but we've worked together for years and years all the way back to the time that

Fred, uh, fred hubner and uh cvbbs.

And uh, you know, i'm i'm very thankful that they're still going.

I know that they went through a rough time.

I'm here i'm getting notes on christian bookstores

a local lifeway bookstore close.

And um, it seems like almost every week there's an

yeah, the the local bookstores really are

fewer and fewer.

Uh, I know that there is a new bookstore the florence area

Sheffield alabama called the rock and I don't know if you've gotten in touch with them yet, but Victor

bracken is uh is running the store there and it's brand new beautiful store.

And i'll tell you walk in that that bookstore uh the rock it's in sheffield

alabama the works

of owen and bunion and And

brooke

probably the

finest in alabama.

Well, i've got to get in touch with the owner of that place.

You do.

Yes you do.

And it reminds me of the old rock on long island where joe's right?

Josie ann stone used to own that place.

And she had the guts to sell things that most other christian bookstores Stop selling like anything that was

critical of roman catholicism and all that kind of thing.

Yeah, joseanne was uh, very bold and Refused to stop

selling things like that, even though they were politically incorrect.

And uh that that went out of business years ago, but uh have fond memories that I remember they used to

sell tickets to the the great debates that I used to organize with dr. Joe star white and the roman

catholic apologists and.

That was a very fond memories.

Yeah, she was a wonderful wonderful lady.

I used to spend a lot of time over there and That's probably one of the places that I was inspired

getting more involved.

It's been now 25

over 25 years since we well anything else that's

uh, going to be hot off the press god willing.

Well.

With the way things happen around here.

I mean if you'd asked me this morning, I would have had no more ones.

But now i've got two besides the one by tony.

Miano.

Um, I don't i'm i'm not thinking of any at the moment.

Well, no, i'm sorry.

I did the one by ron gleason.

Yes, uh, we're still uh, we're still at work on getting ron gleason's book on the second amendment.

We're hoping to get that published before the second amendment is uh is.

Moved.

And I I was very I was very thankful to god that iron sharpens.

Iron had a role in that book.

Uh getting published by you, that's right, that's exactly right and we're I'm excited.

Bill downing as a pastor in california when bill read the book.

Uh, and it wasn't even in its absolutely completed form yet and uh on

the second amendment and bill's a big Big hunter.

Yeah, that

that's that's going to be a very the election coming up.

That's why we're really hoping to get that out within within the next several weeks and um.

And get that promoted to a point where people will really pay attention to it.

Now one of the things that i've noticed over the years is that Friends of mine some of them

pastors Some of them just your average christians Who may not even be

theologically reformed as you and I are uh, who might not order some

specific things that you offer that are Specifically addressing

the doctrines known as calvinism or the reformed theology, but I I know that there are quite a

number of christians who greatly value what you offer on many other topics because

of the trustworthiness of the authors that you choose and uh

There are quite a number as you probably know armenian uh

pastors who have libraries filled with authors that are theologically

reformed or or From ages past were theologically reformed and yet they

are speaking.

So biblically.

Uh.

And faithfully to the word of god on various issues and many different kinds of issues in the christian

life that they.

They can't deny that these things are are wonderful sources of information.

Well, and especially in the day and age in which we live where there is so much

Shallow, but it's just so blatantly anti -christian.

And yet yet masquerading as being christian.

Uh.

I think it's important for us to begin to.

In some senses we need to draw the circle tighter and closer, but in other ways we need to be willing to

Extend our hands a little bit more to brethren who do stand with us on the most important issues

even if their understanding of Of how it was that they came to be saved is still

clouded.

Because we all have I mean we're all clouded in in some areas in our minds.

The question is is the root of the matter in them, you know, do they do they truly understand?

That god saves of god even if they can't fully

articulate How that works out especially in eternity?

Well, uh, I really want uh our listeners to get an idea in the next two minutes or so.

Of basically how you would describe what you offer there at solid ground christian books.

So they know really what they're they're getting into when they start investigating your website and so on.

Well, I think the thing that is Most important in our ministry is that we have sought to

carry a wide variety Every age group

actually geared towards the young children and

writers and for young people and for young adults and for

young marrieds and and all the way up even to the light at evening time, which is a book for the

for senior saints and for those who are preparing to enter eternity and.

And so we have and we have books that are that are more geared towards pastors that are more scholarly.

We have some.

We have greek commentaries.

We have um, Just a whole variety of things that will minister to people at pretty much any

level any stage of the christian life uh new believers seasoned

believers people who go are going through times of coolness perhaps

lukewarmness and uh.

We even have a book called the marks, uh by uh by andrew

fuller and

variety of

subject

know that

you get

some

criticism because of the way you know some of the people that you interview and you don't interview people always that you agree with but

That's the way we grow is to hear from other sides and being able to have them addressed from the scriptures.

Amen, and we're out of time and the website for solid ground christian books is solid Dash ground

dash books .com.

That's solid dash ground Dash books .com.

I'm looking forward to seeing you this january at the g3 conference.

God willing.

I thank everybody for listening especially our new listener in heidelberg germany who sent the question in.

I want you all always to remember for the rest of your lives that jesus christ is a far greater savior than you are a sinner.

God bless.