August 20, 2020 Show with Rob Ventura on “The 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith”

Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors, Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another. Matthew Henry said that in this passage we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours and we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions. And now here's your host Chris Arnzen.

Good afternoon Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida and the rest of humanity living on the planet earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com. This is Chris Arnzen your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio wishing you all a happy Thursday on this 20th day of August 2020 and I am thrilled to have back on the program Rob Ventura.

He is an author and one of two pastors at Grace Community Baptist Church in North Providence, Rhode Island and he's an instructor at Rhode Island School of the Bible. Today we are going to be addressing the 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith.

We're also going to be talking about some publishing projects that Rob is involved in including a new exposition of the 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith also known as the Second London Confession and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Rob Ventura.

Thanks so much Chris. First of all let our listeners know about Grace Community Baptist Church of North Providence,.

Rhode Island. Yes Grace Community Baptist Church has been around about 35 years. It is a confessional reformed baptist church. I'm thankful to be there 13 years full time with my fellow elder Jack Buckley and the founding pastor of the church was Sherwood Becker who went to be with the Lord several years ago but he left us a very good church in good shape doctrinally and in other ways and it's just been a privilege to serve the people.

Can you also tell us about the Rhode Island School of the Bible?

Yeah we started Rhode Island School of the Bible about five years ago as just a small bible school out of our church but the Lord has really blessed it and to date from 30 different churches and we just encourage what the Lord has done there.

We teach twice a year two semesters and I've had various pastors in to help assist with that work and we've taught biblical counseling and various systematic really tremendous blessings and the feedback continues to be good so we hope to press on for this second semester but because of COVID we decided to cancel.

It's been a real blessing just trying. Great. Well if anybody knows I should.

Say if anybody wants to know more about Grace Community Baptist Church of North Providence, Rhode Island you could go to gcbcri .org that's gcbc for Grace Community Baptist Church ri for rhodeisland .org and if you want more information on the Rhode Island School of the Bible you can go to risbible .org risbible .org and hopefully we'll be remembering to repeat that information later on in the program.

Well tell us before we go into our main theme of the 1689 London Confession of Faith which is obviously no small topic to cover. We're not even going to pretend to exhaust the subject today. We could spend months talking about the second London Baptist Confession of Faith even though it is a relatively small document and it's still rich with theological truth and biblical truth but tell us about some of these other projects first that you've got going on in the publishing realm.

Yeah besides the weekly preaching, teaching, counseling, and.

Everything else that's on a busy pastor's plate I'm very thankful the Lord has opened some doors for some new book projects. A couple on the plate is firstly the commentary that I'm writing on the book of Romans.

There was a time when last semester I was teaching Romans at the Rhode Island School of the Bible preaching Romans verse by verse to my church. I'm still doing that and then I'm writing on Romans all at once so I was all Romans-ed out.

Again it was just so much Romans preaching and then again teaching at a Bible school and then coming home and writing the commentary so it's a labor of love. I'm very excited for the work. Romans is obviously a wonderful book.

It's the chief epistle in the New Testament as many writers call it but I noticed there were some things that I was really lacking as a pastor that some of the commentaries didn't have such as nice homiletical outlines, really accessible Greek for the pastor, and application.

I just started doing some writing and I am about halfway done halfway through Romans 8 which is where my preaching is at and actually again this semester we're not teaching a Rhode Island School of the Bible course to a bunch of men in Medellin, Colombia.

I'm excited about mentor books for that commentary so pray my dear brother and those listening that I'll get it done because it's not easy writing a commentary. Let me just say that there's just so much interaction with other writers and scholars that you need to do that it is overwhelming.

But again the Lord's giving help so I'm encouraged. And then the theology, hopefully it'll be a seven volume set. Volume four will be on the doctrine, really Greg's magnum opus, anyone who's known Greg as a 35 -40 years, many courses.

He was one of my systematic theology professors along with Sam Waldron and Robert Martin. But Greg and remember compared to what Pastor Nichols is, besides Romans and Pastor Nichols, then we just finished putting together a festrift on Al Martin.

A festrift is a German word which means a collection of essays in honor of another and put that together submitted that to a publisher. On that I share with it but yes if I would just collaborate on a more official level I did and lots of good things on the plate and again lots of things keeping me.

Well if you.

Want to learn more about these projects and keep up to date with them obviously you can go to the Grace Community Baptist Church of North Providence Rhode Island website that we just mentioned and contact Pastor Ventura there.

Again that's gcbcri .org and we'll repeat that later on as well. Well we are going to be just sticking our toes in the water of a discussion on the 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith. It is known as the Second London Baptist Confession of Faith and that is the topic of an exposition that you are publishing and you have somewhere in the area I believe 20 different contributors is that right?

That is correct. What an amazing thing it is.

To get 20 Reformed Baptist pastors from all over the world to me on time. I tell people to get three Reformed Baptist pastors to do anything on time is amazing but let alone 20. I'm super thankful for the men who have labored to get me their chapters and I give a little background on this whole project if you'd like.

Oh definitely. It just came out maybe part of last year and it was just on all different topics with reference to growing in grace. Well I happened to preach at his conference on adoption and then that chapter for his new book Growing in Grace which again has all of the speakers from the conference in it.

So as I was thinking about how I would do this chapter in a more fuller sense I decided to expound for them the Westminster. I was doing that was it our own two word different I think it's actually the shortest but as I was doing it I noticed that man we only have very dear friend Scott Meadows and he might be working.

Dr. Sam Waldron, the London Baptist Confession of Faith. Whether it's Shaw or R .C. there were so many done by the various Pato Baptist men on their Confession of Faith but as far as that whole thing I thought updated one and get a bunch of men on it.

So basically the first guy called was Sam and I said Sam hey what do you think about this idea that I'm having this Confession of Faith of 1689 that now would you do three graciously has done several other reformed Baptist for decades and certainly pretty much all my mentors and fathers in the faith and as I said they all turned around their chapters to me in a timely manner and I was able to get the book together.

I've done first edit on the book now it's sitting with my second editor and then after that it will go to five readers and I hope to shop the book for a deal end of the year January February March beginning 2021.

So super excited about it the men did really a great job and I'm excited to have just a small part in this. Well I'm excited about it too.

And I'm looking forward to getting my copy when it's published. I'll owe it to you after the interview. That's right you will. And it's called the Second London Baptist Confession of Faith for a reason.

Why did these dear saints of the 17th century find a compelling need to formulate the Second London Baptist Confession when it is nearly entirely a word-for-word replica of the Westminster Confession other than Baptist distinctives when there already was a first London Baptist Confession that actually predated the Westminster.

That's correct. Yes so you have.

The First London Baptist Confession of Faith 1644. Then you've got the Westminster 1646 1647 you've got the Savoy which was from the Congregationalists in 1658. And then we have our 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith although it really I mean the date is really 1677 when it was out it was already in existence of faith which means I tell my dear Pato Baptist brethren that we're not the new kids on the block.

Actually they are because again like you rightly said our document was out before theirs. But I think that having looked at two documents that the Reformed Baptists did they saw that some great areas and that the 1644 needed to be um beefed up that was seen in several plus Sabbaths and it's a wonderful document.

Um it's amazing to and to just be able our forefathers and to look with how they dealt etc just to have that um historical connection new kids on the block. But we're really not. What we preach is a historic faith.

Um these are the things most surely believed among us you know this is confession of faith which uh if my um understanding is correct a bible and the London Baptist Confession of Faith there um into the foundation of the building.

So um again these are historic and these are um.

Of course there is a divide amongst Baptists there uh probably always has been but it's even a sharper divide today where you have obviously those outside of uh Reformed Baptist theology who would be uh with with obvious reasons opposed to uh the 1689 confession.

At least not all of it because some of it is universal Christian truth but the very specific things that are unique to Reformed Baptists they would reject. But even amongst fellow Calvinists there are varying degrees a spectrum of views on being confessional.

There are even some Calvinist Baptists who are opposed to being confessional and you have those that uh would not be in full subscription and are even leery about the concept of being in full subscription because they don't want to anchor themselves.

They are thinking uh to something uh that would prevent them from being Berean. So so tell us about the whole concept of being confessional as a Baptist. Yeah I'm looking.

Here my editor's preface. I begin by saying it has been correctly said that true Christianity is confessional Christianity and that a church with a little creed is a church with a little life. And I go on to say that the true church has always confessed her faith openly for there is a once for all delivered to the saints Jude 3.

Um and I think that we need to understand that historically uh Baptists were again not ashamed to put down what they believe um on paper. And I think that we ought not to be ashamed of this as well. Um historically Baptists again uh Reformed Baptist churches and um but there are those again like you said who um hold to the confession and you know various want to judge such.

And uh that's a wonderful thing. Um to see in our day I've got this quote here I think it's really great. B .H. he says this. Um that which you know is not a helper to true they help the true high creed anti-confessional no confession.

But which of course is a thing with the churches. And you ask you know to say well we believe the Bible you believe the Bible. But what. So I think for a church to actually have a confession of faith that actually hammers out what church.

Also for the Christian faith again whatever it might be for a church I think is. And of course uh there is a bit of irony involved in the whole.

Concept of a confession. Uh when you have those that claim to be anti-confessional and they say we have no creed but Christ no confession but the Bible that is a confession. Yes. And whenever you state what the Bible believe or the Bible teaches you are uttering a confession of faith and the whole issue is whether you've written it down and how how biblically faithful it is.

Everybody has a confession whether they like to admit it or not. Well that's right Chris.

And also you see the Bible itself there's confessional statements all throughout the Bible. You've got Deuteronomy 6 right the Shema of Israel. You've got Paul's faithful status of faithful sayings rather um all of these confessions of faith this is a faithful saying.

So you've got Jude again speaking about the faith which was what once for all delivered to the saint. So um you know the Bible itself shows that there were these statements. There were these um you know truths these objective truths that the people of God were very familiar with and uh was spoken among them.

So uh yeah unfortunately again for churches to not uh hold to these historic confessions of faith i think do great damage to the people. And again just going back to my opening statement i'm convinced uh that a little creed is um uh that a little creed is a church with a little life.

If um we don't have these robust doctrines before us expounded taught to our people i think the people wind up being spiritually anemic and that's that's a crying shame. Well.

Why don't we uh go over uh the main emphasis of the 1689 london baptist confession and uh just to repeat something that i hinted at earlier this is not some enormous tome. This is not uh just filled with hundreds of pages of things that would even make reform baptists more sectarian because there are even more jots and tittles that we want everyone to agree with.

Uh tell us about the uh the the main emphasis of it and it is there is brevity to it. And there is also as i also mentioned before there is universal truth in this that that christians of all uh faithful denominations and obviously we would believe some are more faithful than others but uh those that we would call our brothers in christ uh there is much in this document that they could say a hearty.

Amen to absolutely yeah no i think that really any christian should be able to uh say yes and amen to much much that's in this doctrine and when i meet people who are not reformed i will think they like it.

Um i remember for me and i don't know how it was for you chris but when i was first coming into uh reformed theology some um i want to know. 25 years ago uh when i first read a confession of faith i think was actually the westminster shorter catechism i was blown away.

What is repentance. Repentance is a you know grace spells understand look at all of these qualities just kind of a feather to our fate. But just as a an eighth itself like you said i mean there is um 32 chapters and um it covers them.

Uh a some certainly again the baptists not only are caught of what was uh in these other documents but in other areas and um of course personally believe that we are greatly indebted to the document um savoy and particular baptist in london the city um in the introduction saying that we are reformed baptist some uh sense for who we are.

But chris you know when i was becoming a reformed baptist that very strangely i think it's celebrated of course you got you know the think that back when it was uh something that was uh not not reformed theology you know i put out a book several years ago called going beyond and say that i didn't write really the first rung um on the ladder for reformed truth continue to go forward so i've got um some chapters in there by um sam waldron i go to worship i've got rich barcellas on um the law of god.

I've got a blackburn on um the church and covenant theology. And then the last chapter is um by bob martin basically that book go all the way uh reform theology uh where it takes you believed among us.

Well we have to go to our first station break.

If you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own for rob ventura about the 1689 london baptist confession of faith. Or about reformed baptists in general. Uh about reformed theology in general.

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Rebinding .com. Welcome back. This is chris arms and if you just tuned us in our guest today is author.

And pastor rob ventura we are discussing the 1689 london baptist confession of faith. He is also the general editor of a new exposition on the 1689 london baptist confession of faith also known as the second london baptist confession that will feature 20 different reformed baptists giving exposition and commentary on this great document.

If you'd like to join us on the air our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com. Chrisarnson at gmail .com. Give us your first name your city and state and your country of residence if you live outside the usa and only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

We have john and banger main who asks how much of the second london baptist confession do you have to agree with in order to be considered a full subscriptionist. Because i happen to know that most who identify themselves as confessionally reformed churches and specifically adhere to the 1689 london baptist confession no longer believe that the pope is the antichrist.

So if that can be disagreed with how much more can be disagreed with. That's a great question and i'm not going to say uh you.

Know at what point that line is to be drawn um but i will say that for members coming into our church um we basically have two standards for them to come into membership um that they must review and um hold to uh we have our um constitution practically what we believe is to happen in our church um national standard which is the uh lcf2 london confession of faith um of 1689.

But what we say chris to the people coming into membership is they need to be in substantial of the whole pulp issue don't believe people so far baptist would see today but genetic christ or agreement.

Uh there might be little things here and there. It's about you know the things are not official associations. Whatever the case draw a line. So great. Well thanks john. And uh.

We have to make it clear that even those who have abandoned that element of the confession who no longer believe or never did believe that the pope is the antichrist that does not mean typically especially with a reformed baptist church.

You might have some odd exceptions with individuals out there uh but as a whole that does not mean that reformed baptists would have a softer view of the pope or the papacy. It's just that in terms of eschatology and so on there has become a different view than was dominant back then in the 17th century.

No that's correct. Well said. Uh let's see. Here we have uh rj in white plains new york who says. One of the reasons that folks are leery about being hardcore subscriptionist to any confession is they think that that is just bolstering sectarianism and a judgmental spirit.

Uh against those who are truly our brethren. I'm not speaking about mushy gushy evangelical ecumenicalism or ecumenism. I am talking about those that would come to a conclusion that their brothers in christ for whom christ died are somehow inferior if they are not in subscription to this document.

Who could have that view. I've got to say that for.

Me you know i love those who love christ and uh you know whether they're gonna love them. Uh who could obviously vote amongst uh bible language but um and i think also the late robert martin sam waldron's confess specific use and i'll just read them to you.

Number one he says it aids in the public affirmation and the concise stand before contributes to our sense of historical earlier. So when someone looks at those things i mean it doesn't say number five and it divides us among our brethren or it gives us superiority over this one.

And that one. I mean um that has happened in my heart um among again reformed baptist churches again whether it's 26 or chop. So again i don't think it ought to be something the brethren or um gives us an air of superiority over anyone.

God forbid that should ever be the car for what we have. Yes and uh in.

Fact you've already uh hinted at this uh but the reason why there is a second london baptist confession of faith and not just a first is because it was an attempt at reformed baptists to demonstrate uh unity with our presbyterian brethren.

That's correct. Uh that's why it is nearly an identical replica. And although not exactly that there is a reason why it's the baptist confession of faith that has baptist distinctives in it. But there it was an appeal to the presbyterians.

We're not a cult. We are on the same page with so much of you our brethren who are presbyterian and we just want to identify what we also believe are important issues of difference without being uh bigoted or sectarian or or hateful.

Uh we just want to let uh everyone know that we do as distinctives on church polity and the on the ordinance of baptism.

No that's right and we ought to be you know greatly indebted uh those men after that period to have such great documents as um westminster and savoy. And i think the baptists were um educated said at that time and uh they were blessed by it and like you said they incorporated much of that lean on the shoulders of those we have that we didn't receive at the reformed baptist if not in our day.

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