Debate: Christianity or Atheism? Part 2

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October 12, 2014

Christian apologists, Jeff Durbin & Vocab Malone, debate with two Atheists, Omar Call & Shawn Esplin. The debate took place in Tempe, Arizona with a mixed crowd of Christians and Atheists. The debate topic: Which makes more sense: Christianity or Atheism? Find out more at apologiaradio.com

Jeff Durbin:The Lord's Prayer - Part 3

00:00: And so here we are with the second part of the debate, which makes more sense, Christianity before atheism.
00:07: Here's the agenda for the last part. And we'll go through a period of rebuttals, another period of cross -examination, and then we'll have closing statements for each team.
00:18: Before we get to the rebuttal period, where each team will have eight minutes, with Jeff and Beaucat going first,
00:25: I want to talk about the cross -examination period, and the second one that's coming up. Each team are scheduled for 10 minutes.
00:32: However, Omar and Sean will be given three additional minutes for a total of 13 for their cross -examination period, in order to make up for some of the time lost during the last cross -examination period, where things went a little bit with Jeff, a little misunderstanding with how far the rules met.
00:54: So, when the cross -examination is going on, the team that's doing the cross -examination is the moderator, and they can move it along, and that's to be respected, and responses can be done during the rebuttal time and the closing statements.
01:10: So Jeff, I think you were gonna. Yeah, I guess I was working on a different protocol there of the debate format, so yeah.
01:16: Maybe you had more time now, correct? Yes, okay, yep. All right, with that. Apology accepted. Oh yeah. So I apologize deeply, very, very sorry.
01:25: Sorry, completely wrong, and it's all yours. All right, now we'll move forward, and we're in the remote.
01:32: You have to wash his car, too. Okay. We're not washing the feet, Omar. Rebuttal period.
01:39: Moving forward, eight minutes each. Jeff, vocab, you have the mic.
01:45: As soon as you begin speaking, your eight minutes will begin. Ahead of time.
02:04: How you guys doing tonight, good? Good. Enjoying yourselves? Yeah. Awesome. Well, thank you guys for being here.
02:09: Okay, ready? Okay, I want you to consider the irreconcilable conflict going on in our opponent's reasoning this evening.
02:18: Atheists will cry foul, and they just did, and they'll cry foul when God executes justice upon people to who rebel against him, as any righteous judge would, and become morally indignant when they see
02:28: Christians falling short of some standard. They will decry the situation in children's cancer wards and condemn people like Jeffrey Dahmer.
02:36: And yet, our opponents are claiming to be standing on an atheistic view of man. In their view, man is nothing more than cosmic broccoli.
02:44: He is a highly evolved complex of fleshy chemicals that is ultimately no different than any other product of evolution.
02:50: Ladies and gentlemen, if we could get them to stop borrowing from our worldview and be consistent within their own worldview, they would see that what happens to protoplasm just happens.
03:00: In their proposed godless universe, they have lost all moral complaint when protoplasm bumps into protoplasm.
03:07: So what if purposeless complexes of atoms called children die of cancer in cancer wards? So what if a man slaughters millions of bags of biological stuff called
03:15: Jews? So what if someone tortures and rapes a child? Atheists will say, we've evolved to avoid pain.
03:21: Morality is wrapped up in the avoidance of unnecessary harm. Well, what if this cosmic broccoli doesn't want to live for the avoidance of pain?
03:29: What if I choose to live to take pleasure in the torture of children or other products of evolution?
03:35: The atheists will claim, as a society, we've determined what morality is and we can enforce it. If morality can just be stipulated, then it is totally arbitrary, and Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot, and any other person can create a larger society that overwhelms yours, and they can just determine that torturing people is a good, moral, happy thing to do, and you lose the right to complain about it.
03:54: Basically, might makes right in the atheistic worldview. Atheists are acting as though man were created in the image of God.
04:01: They act as though humans should love one another. They act as though there is meaning and purpose in life. They act as though death were an enemy.
04:09: Ladies and gentlemen, we're glad they do, and God has told us why they do. It is because in the deepest part of their being, they know
04:16: Him. They cannot help being what God made them. God made them to be in relationship with Him, to love
04:22: Him, glorify Him, and to enjoy Him forever. Their problem this evening is not intellectual.
04:28: Their problem is the same problem that Volkav and I have before Christ. It's a suppression of truth. It's intellectual.
04:34: It's not, sorry, it's not an intellectual problem. It's a spiritual problem. Next, I want to just address a few issues that Omar had brought up in his speech.
04:43: The issue of voluntarism, that God just sort of arbitrarily decrees what is evil and what's not, sort of like God decides that today, murder is wrong, but tomorrow,
04:50: He can determine that murder is not wrong. What's He attacking there is ultimately a straw man. Christians don't believe that God arbitrarily decrees what is good and what is evil.
04:59: You see, what God decrees to be good flows from His own holy, perfect, and pure character.
05:05: And so when God tells me, Jeff, don't lie, it's not as though God can tomorrow say, Jeff, now you can lie.
05:10: Now, please lie lots of times. You see, God is holy, and God cannot lie.
05:17: And when He makes me, He makes me in His image as His reflection, and He makes me to be like Him. And so I am to be like God, and so I don't lie.
05:26: That's the key thing, that God doesn't just arbitrarily decide what is evil or what isn't evil. Evil is contrary to His own good and moral character.
05:34: Notice the abundance of times that's in Omar's speech, and even in Sean's, too. We heard words like dilemmas.
05:41: We heard things about cause and effect. We heard things about logically self -contradicting, and you can't do that.
05:48: That's logically impossible. Now, I want to suggest to you guys today that if there is no God, and we are all just protoplasm moving throughout space, and all we are is just atoms banging around, it just, then there's no reason to be logical.
06:01: There's no moral requirement to be logical. I mean, why can't I come up here tonight and lie to you to make my case?
06:07: I mean, is there some moral obligation not to lie to you to make a case? And of course, we believe that, but you see, if the laws of logic are just matter, as Sean understands, then they're not universal, and they're not necessary.
06:20: If laws of logic only exist in our minds, they're not universal. They're not necessary.
06:26: They're not invariant, and we can just create our own laws of logic, and then in that case, it wouldn't be a problem for me to completely contradict myself, given their worldview.
06:36: Thank you. The time to stop is less than four minutes, so we'll be done with Omar's speech.
07:16: I mentioned a number of opening things in my opening statement in regards to the historical
07:21: Jesus, and I didn't hear much interaction with him.
07:27: We got a little bit in the cross -examination, but I remind you, I still, you know, I brought up six or seven things, and that could be too many, but maybe just, like, one we would like to see some interaction with.
07:38: For example, Sean brought up a number of things, and it'd be difficult for us to try to deal with every one, but you can.
07:45: So, for example, in Judges 119, he mentioned, I looked it up in the New American Standard, and it translates it this way.
07:52: Now, the Lord was with Judah, and then it says, they took possession of the hill country, and it says, but they could not drive out the inhabitants.
08:02: So, it seems clear, if it's they in the New American Standard, and you have it, it's saying
08:08: Judah could not drive them out. It's not saying God could not defeat the iron chariots, and just think about it.
08:14: Did the author of Judges know about the Exodus, and God brought down a whole sea upon a bunch of Egyptians and chariots?
08:22: I think he knew that, and probably would have put, not a problem.
08:29: We can't deal with everyone, but if they just tackle one or two. Now, going on to the authorship of the
08:34: Gospels, all of our earliest evidence is absolutely unanimous about who wrote these.
08:41: For example, you'll often hear people like Bart Ehrman and Ford say, well, they're anonymous, but we don't have any copies of these
08:48: Gospels without the inscriptions. If we have Matthew 1, we have where it says, the
08:54: Gospel according to Matthew. It's either not there, ripped off, in other cases with papyrus fragments, or it always says
09:01: Matthew. It never says any other names. For example, these are our earliest ones with Luke, papyrus four, circa 200
09:08: A .D. It specifically says Gospel according to Luke. Look these up. Matthew, P66, papyrus 66, circa 150, 200.
09:16: It says Gospel according to Luke. P75, circa 175 A .D. Includes John, and for John one, it says
09:23: Gospel according to John. And there's possibly one more with one called papyrus oxyrhynchus two, but we're not as sure about that one.
09:30: Even in the Gospels themselves, though, we can see little hints about this.
09:36: For example, if you look at Mark, he does what a lot of ancient authors did. He has something called an inclusio, sometimes called an envelope.
09:44: In the very beginning, Mark 1 .16, he mentions Peter right away. At the very end, Mark 16 .7, he mentions
09:49: Peter again, which is a common way ancient authors would signify to the audience, this is my source for this document.
09:56: And interestingly enough, our earliest sources in regards to the Gospel of Mark all say, yes, indeed,
10:03: Peter. For example, Papias, writing around 130, says this, quote, the elder used to say this also.
10:10: Mark became the interpreter of Peter and he wrote down accurately, but not in order, as much as he remembered of the sayings and doings of Christ.
10:20: In Luke, he doesn't claim to be an eyewitness, but he says specifically in the introduction, which by the way, is in the line of ancient historical documents, the way
10:28: Luke wrote Luke one. If you look at the introduction to it, he says, I interviewed the eyewitnesses.
10:34: He doesn't even claim to be an eyewitness. We don't make stuff up, but he got eyewitness testimony.
10:41: We could go on and talk about John, how at the end he says, this is the disciple telling you these things, and who was he talking about right before that?
10:48: He was talking about John. Look at the end of John, you'll see. He's clearly saying, I, John. He doesn't say, I, John, but he says, he is an eyewitness to these things.
10:57: Thank you. Now we'll move on to the next rebuttal period. Omar and Sean now have eight minutes to give response and rebuttal, and their time begins as soon as the first one of them speaks.
11:24: I want to talk about the iron chariots thing.
11:41: I understand that it was probably referring to Judah who couldn't defeat the people of the valley, and not that God couldn't do it, but if God was with Judah, and he helped them defeat the people of the mountains, then
12:02: I think that most likely he would have also helped them defeat the people of the valleys, but anyway, that isn't a terribly important thing,
12:14: I don't think. More important is things like eyewitnesses to Jesus.
12:21: The Bible says that over 500 people saw him resurrected.
12:28: The problem with this claim is that we don't actually see any of these eyewitnesses writing about this.
12:37: We don't see even one person who, from that time, says, I saw
12:42: Jesus resurrected. You know, there were supposed to have been over 500 of them, and not one wrote it down.
12:50: There were also, when Jesus was resurrected, it says that other people were resurrected with him and went back into Jerusalem, and not one of those people wrote it down.
13:00: If I was resurrected, I would definitely write it down, or have someone write it down for me if I didn't know how to do it myself.
13:08: I think that these are fairly large omissions. The accounts that he's talking about, the
13:17: Gospels, are all from decades after the time when
13:22: Jesus is said to have lived. Even if we believe the chronology, it still would not have likely been the people who were with him writing these things down.
13:36: It would have been someone telling second -hand information later for the most part. Some of them claim to have spoken to eyewitnesses, but people also made false claims.
13:49: And we can see this, and I'm sure they would agree that you can see this in other books which are not in the
13:55: Bible. They claim to have done things and seen things that didn't actually happen.
14:04: And in fact, some of them are born against listening to forgers and people who are making up false stories when that is exactly what they themselves are doing.
14:15: So we can't just automatically trust these things. Okay, we'll stop the clock.
14:36: You've got about five minutes and 10 seconds. Okay, so once again,
14:52: I have heard the atheistic worldview is built up as a straw man.
15:02: We're having words put in our mouth. You're saying that we're bags of protoplasm.
15:08: Any atoms are banging around. I don't think I ever referred to any protoplasm or atoms. I never claimed that that's all that I am or that's all that anyone else is.
15:17: But this is a common tactic to try to build a very weak type of an argument to attack.
15:25: That's what a straw man argument is. I wanna talk about the argument from morality. A common argument for Christianity is the argument from morality.
15:34: Many atheists do not see any reason to oppose the idea of objective moral values. I think we can agree that certain types of actions are objectively morally wrong.
15:43: We might have some disagreement about what those specific actions might be, but by and large, we will agree there are objective moral values.
15:49: This has nothing to do with God unless objective moral values depend on God. But why should we believe that they do?
15:55: Because Nietzsche, Bertrand Russell, and Michael Ruse say so? Their claims are denied by many philosophers, atheists as well as theists.
16:03: Even Russell and Ruse themselves denied these claims at other times in their careers. What makes certain acts immoral is that they harm people in ways that are not justified by benefits to anyone.
16:12: A Christian might ask, what's immoral about causing serious harms to other people without justification? It seems natural to answer, it simply is, objectively.
16:22: Don't you agree? It's true that some philosophers might long for a deeper explanation of why it is immoral for humans, moral agents, to cause unjustified harm.
16:31: Even if atheists were stuck with saying it just is immoral, that would be a problem for atheism only if theists could give a better answer, but they can't.
16:39: If you claim that what makes rape immoral is that God commands us not to rape, this view faces a difficult question.
16:45: Why should we obey God's commands? The answer cannot be because God will punish us if we disobey.
16:50: If the answer is that it is simply immoral to disobey God, this is no more enlightening than our answer that it is simply immoral to cause unjustified harm.
16:59: A better answer is that God has a good reason for commanding us not to rape. It harms the victim.
17:04: But then the harm is objectively morally wrong, regardless of what God says. No one actually gets the morality from God's commands.
17:11: They get God's commands from their morality. To claim that what God commands is what makes things wrong makes no sense.
17:18: We do have objective moral values without God. To say that God is interested in humans means that the life of every single human is of the utmost importance to him.
17:29: He cares absolutely whether individual human beings believe in his existence and whether they demonstrate an appropriately awestruck attitude toward him.
17:37: This is pleasantly because he knows precisely and specifically what it would take for each individual human to come to believe in him, and yet he takes no effort to provide what might be needed, even though to do so would not actually impart any more effort on his part than doing nothing.
17:50: And yet he punishes individual humans for failing to possess what he could so easily impart. This doesn't make a lot of sense.
17:57: If God made the universe, there is nothing that exists that he did not make. But if there is more than one universe, he made the other universes too and made all of them from nothing.
18:06: But there is nothing logically impossible about something being generated from nothing. It doesn't make sense that a theist would insist the origin of the universe requires the existence of a deity.
18:15: Think about how much effort it would take an omnipotent God to create the universe, none. He could do it in an instant with his eyes closed.
18:22: He could commission you or a chimpanzee with the ability to do it for him. He could create a nanoscopic robot to create the entire universe all by itself.
18:30: Or consider that he could create an automatic universe self -generating process that doesn't require him to participate in any meaningful way at all.
18:37: None of these scenarios would be any more difficult for him than any other, and none of them is less likely or more impossible than the traditional narrative, except that in the traditional narrative, he was so tired by the end that he needed to rest.
18:49: Does this make sense? God is never set to change. He is the same yesterday, today, and forever. This is taken to mean that he is everlasting, and or could mean that he exists outside of time.
18:59: This second idea has posed a problem for Christian theologians and philosophers that have come to recognize that it doesn't make sense for a being outside of time to ever act in time.
19:07: For this reason, the idea that God is outside of time has lost support over the last 100 years. It is incoherent that a being outside of time would answer your prayer at 3 .52
19:17: p .m. Eastern Standard Time last Tuesday, and yet the God of the Bible is a being that changes and does things in time.
19:24: He changes his mind, he changes his mood, he changes his commandments. He even makes mistakes sometimes and regrets them if we are to believe the
19:30: Bible. At one point, he instructs his followers that the right thing to do is to stone a Sabbath breaker, but today, this is surely not the case.
19:38: If this is an arbitrary morality for a changeless being, nothing is. Thank you.
19:53: Yes, 20 seconds. Basically, I just wanted to point out that God doesn't actually say in the
20:04: Bible that rape is wrong. It's not treated as a crime against a woman.
20:10: It is treated as a property crime against the father or husband of the woman, and if an unwed girl is raped, then the man is supposed to pay her father a favor, and then he has to marry her, and I think that's a pretty messed up kind of thing.
20:28: We'll move on to cross -examinations. Thank you. Thank you.
20:35: Thank you. Jeff and Bo Cab will have 10 minutes to do this round of cross -examination.
20:41: Omar and Sean will begin at 13, as mentioned before. A reminder with the cross -examinations,
20:46: It's the opportunity to ask questions, and your role is asking questions, you're the moderator, and you can move it along.
20:55: Answer questions, not statements. You can respond to statements in your focus area.
21:03: So, with that, we'll begin your 10 -minute cross -examination of these guys when you start.
21:11: Have you ever heard of Judas bin Hezekiah, Simon the Just, and Throngus the Shepherd, circa 4
21:17: BC? I don't know that I have. Have you heard of Judas the
21:22: Galilean, circa 6 AD? I don't think so.
21:28: I think I might have heard at least one of the first set of names. Have you heard of Thotis, circa
21:34: AD 45, T -H -E -U -D -S? I don't think so. I'm sure you're saying that wrong.
21:39: I probably have a bad pronunciation. Have you heard of Simon Bar -Gaura, circa 50
21:45: AD? I'm not sure. I just saw a baby.
21:52: Have you heard of Jonathan the Weaver, circa 73 AD? I don't think so. Have you heard of Andreas Lucuus, circa 115
22:01: AD? No. Have you heard of Jesus of Nazareth, circa 30 AD? No.
22:08: The 12 men I just asked you guys about, well I didn't do all 12, I did more like 9, were all Jewish candidates for the
22:13: Messiah, roughly contemporaneous with Jesus. Why do you think you're familiar with that one particular
22:19: Messianic candidate, but not the others? Because he's the one who got a following and who became very popular.
22:26: There have actually been other Jewish Messiah candidates. Oh, lots. I just named them. Well, no, there have been some that got, you know, many followers also.
22:34: What happened when they died, Sean, when the Messianic candidate died? What happened to the movement?
22:40: It generally fell apart. The one that I was thinking of actually fell apart before he died because he converted to Islam.
22:47: That was in the Middle Ages. I'm just talking about that, that was in the Middle Ages. I'm asking about guys contemporaneous with Jesus. You are correct.
22:53: Do you think Jesus died, Omar? Did Jesus die? Yeah. I can't see any reason to think he died.
22:59: Are there still a band of Christians that follows him to this day? Are there bands of Christians?
23:04: Are there? Certainly. Why? Why do people follow
23:10: Jesus? Yeah, why not these other guys? Why is there not these movements around these Messiahs?
23:15: They just weren't as popular. Why weren't they as popular? Because they died, probably. So what I'm asking you is, what is different about this
23:22: Jesus character? People also follow Muhammad and, you know, I don't think you would claim that he was anything special.
23:30: You happen to have gotten a lot of followers who kept it going. Yeah, Muhammad was not the race of Jesus.
23:37: I'm sticking to a certain historical context. Muhammad didn't claim to be the Jewish Messiah. And Muhammad didn't say,
23:43: Sean, don't pull a Jeff. And also, Muhammad never claimed that when
23:49: I die, I will rise again. No one ever went around saying Muhammad rose again. They said he gave us the Quran. So it's a different set of circumstances.
23:57: What I'm trying to get at is, it seems something different happened around this messianic movement.
24:06: I would postulate Jesus rose from the dead. I haven't heard any better reasons from you.
24:12: Now, I'd be curious to see your background on this. And so if you could tell maybe us, maybe one or two of your favorite historical
24:19: Jesus scholars, what their names. Either one of us?
24:25: Yeah. That's Metzger and Erwin. Metzger is a textual critic. He is dead.
24:30: He is good. But he's not a historical Jesus scholar. But those are pretty good choices. Sean, do you have any you'd like to share?
24:37: Not anyone else, really. Have you guys ever read or heard of any of these guys? Ben Withering III, Craig Evans, N .T.
24:44: Wright, Craig Blomberg, Daryl Bach, I .R. Marshall, the late Martin Hingle. Any of those you remember?
24:50: I've heard of some of those names. Those are all folks that are scholars.
24:55: Most of them still living, doing grade A work. They're very bestsellers. Well, the world likes lies, and they like heretics even better, but they like apostates the best.
25:08: And so someone that says, I was a fundamentalist, and now I'm a happy agnostic, that does well. Someone who says,
25:13: I believe Jesus rose from the dead and has moral implications for your life, not so much. But I don't think bestsellers,
25:19: Da Vinci Code, was really a way to judge historical acumen. Did you? No, I wasn't suggesting that.
25:26: The reason why I named those folks... I was just saying those are the books that I read. I was worried about doing this, because I didn't want to make a list of names to name drop to say, oh, you don't know these.
25:33: My point is, it seems there's a lack of actual knowledge about historical Jesus studies, and really, what happened in the first century.
25:43: And see, that's what Christianity hangs on, so I want you guys to know about it, and that's why I'm asking these questions. I would say the
25:49: Jesus movement continued because the Messiah didn't stay dead, and he's coming back. Praise God.
25:54: Go ahead, Jeff. All right. Sean, you had mentioned in your opening speech that there were no eyewitnesses to the resurrection that wrote about it.
26:03: You did make that statement? Something along those lines. Okay. I'd like to read to you from 1 Corinthians 15, written by the
26:09: Apostle Paul. He says, For I delivered to you as our first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins, according to the
26:14: Scriptures, and that he was buried, and that he was raised on the third day, according to the Scriptures. And that he appeared to Cephas, then to the
26:20: Twelve. After that he appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time, most of whom remain until now, but some have fallen asleep. Then he has appeared to James, then to all the apostles.
26:28: And last of all, as to one untimely born, he appeared to me. Less than five minutes. Comment. That's essentially what
26:37: I was talking about, that if all of those people had seen him. You said that there were no eyewitnesses to Jesus' resurrection that wrote about it.
26:46: I think what I said was that there were none of the people who were resurrected who wrote about the resurrection. You were referring to the five hundred eyewitnesses, and you said that they didn't write about it.
26:55: I was talking about the other people who, it's saying, you know, over five hundred other people.
27:00: At the beginning of what I asked you here, I asked you, did I quote you correctly, and you said yes. And now you're changing it.
27:08: Let me read you again. Peter, in the second letter of Peter, he says, For we did not follow prologically devised tales when we made known to you the power and coming of our
27:16: Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses to his majesty. Comment.
27:23: I think that these are, you know, quotes that are intended to be supportive of this religion.
27:31: On what basis do you reject this testimony from the first century? On what basis? On the basis that we don't see anything supernatural.
27:41: So you're using your naturalistic worldview to reject outright any testimony coming about the resurrection of Jesus.
27:50: Is that what you're saying? I would reject any witness, whether it was from the first century or whether it was from yesterday, about anyone that said they saw someone come back to life.
27:58: Now that doesn't mean that it doesn't happen. People claim that they see their family. Okay, let me give you another one, Lamar. What was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we have looked at and touched with our hands concerning the word of life, that's
28:07: Jesus, and the life was manifested and we have seen and testify and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was also the writ of the
28:14: Father and was manifested to us. What we have seen and heard we proclaim to you also, so that you too may have fellowship with us and indeed our fellowship with the
28:21: Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ. That was by John, first century. Right, so you're saying we should take it on his word that he said something.
28:29: No, I'm actually rebutting what Sean said, and that's that no eyewitnesses to the resurrection wrote about it. I just quoted you three.
28:38: Basically what I was talking about was the other people outside of the Bible. I mean, not all of those 500 people were supposed to have been people who were part of the
28:52: Christian, you know. Well, I'm curious as to why the standard needs to be outside of the
29:00: Bible. Do you think the Bible, specifically the New Testament, was always one just book?
29:07: No, I don't find it trustworthy though. Okay, because you're saying the Bible, but understand the
29:13: Bible has numerous different sources in it. So we talk about the 27 New Testament documents, we're talking about different authors.
29:19: We're talking about documents written by different eyewitnesses. Remember the people that weren't eyewitnesses don't claim to be eyewitnesses.
29:24: Luke doesn't need a lie, he doesn't say he's an eyewitness. He says, I interviewed eyewitnesses. So we're not scared of people who aren't eyewitnesses as long as they get the facts straight.
29:31: But the thing is, you're dealing with New Testament documents from the first century. They weren't always called New Testament documents.
29:38: Why reject it just because it has the resurrection in it? Especially when it's so early. Another reason to reject it is that the accounts of whom
29:45: Jesus appeared to after his resurrection vary. Now it does say that he appeared to different groups of people.
29:50: In one case he appeared to one woman, in another case he appeared to a group of people. It's highly suspicious that something so incredible and extraordinary happened, and yet the accounts of them are not identical.
30:01: Omar, if you have five people, do you have one person? Yes. Right, it doesn't say only one person.
30:09: So it just mentions one. So on a technicality you can make it true. No, we don't need...
30:14: One minute. The atheist likes to force contradictions where there be none. Okay, considering your assumption that no
30:20: God exists. So, no God exists. And you know when we say no God exists, we're just broccoli, matter in motion. I'm just saying that if I have an atheist...
30:28: Okay. I was quoting Dan Barker, an atheist, that says that we are no more than causing broccoli, essentially.
30:34: I don't have to agree with that. No, I understand that. I understand that, but I'm making that assumption on atheism, okay? Well, not all atheists have that.
30:40: Hold on, let me ask the question here. So, would it be appropriate for me, considering your denial of God's existence, there's no justice, no purpose, and no ultimate purpose...
30:49: I don't agree with that. Okay, then where does the ultimate purpose and meaning come from in a worldview that doesn't have a
30:54: God? I can't speak for all atheists, I can speak for myself. So, it's arbitrary, it's subjective. So, is there a moral requirement...
31:01: Well, let me ask it this way. Would it be appropriate for vocab and I to win the debate tonight to choke you?
31:08: That seems unfair. Why would we do that? There's no God. There's no God. I can't see how...
31:15: Why will you admit it? I'm reminding you of what you believe.
31:21: I can't see how the existence of God has anything to do with the rules of our debate.
31:26: Well, now the next session we have in the cross -examination. We're switching the tables. And now,
31:32: Omar and Sean, essentially, have moderated the capabilities here. And, some additional time.
31:38: You'll have 13 minutes. The last questions. Respond to the questions.
31:45: Write the statements. Respond to the statements. And we have your closing time. With that, when you're ready, the clock will begin.
31:59: One important thing that I think we should know is... How can we tell if some books were divinely inspired?
32:09: How do we know which ones were divinely inspired? And, whether or not, you know, the canon that you believe in...
32:17: ...or a different Christian canon, since there are still in existence multiple canons... ...and there have been many more in the past...
32:24: ...how do we know which one contains all of the divinely inspired books and nothing else?
32:31: I would quote a local guy here that says... ...they're merely artifacts of inspiration.
32:38: And what that answer means is God knows. He knows what he inspired and what he didn't. But how do you know which to follow?
32:46: Well, fortunately, there are some good tests for us. So we talk about the New Testament...
32:51: ...with apostolic closeness, proximity to the apostles. That's one way. Do you want to name a couple others?
32:58: I'd like to hear a couple others. Another way is sort of a practical approach...
33:05: ...which, is it widely agreed upon in ecclesiastical settings?
33:11: That's one way the Church is... So there became an organic universality. And when churches run into other churches from other places...
33:18: ...they would see, oh, you use that book too? Oh, you use that book? Oh, you have that book? Well, why is that book legitimate?
33:24: Is your belief based on these evidence that you talk about? Ultimately, a person who doesn't know how to read...
33:33: ...who doesn't know that information... ...because they're a creature... ...if they hear the words of their
33:38: Creator... ...that will be enough... ...because there's a self -attestation to God's Word.
33:45: And so, those are good evidence and facts... ...but ultimately, we know
33:50: God is speaking. So the way you know is that God tells you? No, I didn't say that.
33:56: Oh, explain. I didn't say God tells me. But we know when we hear our
34:01: Maker speaking. And so, since we have general revelation... ...I can look out at the stars... ...but the stars don't tell me God is triune.
34:07: He gives us special revelation. Ultimately, Christianity is a revealed religion... ...meaning we are saying God spoke in His Son.
34:13: Right, but there's nothing you could look at in the universe... ...stars, grass, trees... ...that would tell you that Jesus is the
34:20: Son of God. This is something someone would have to teach you... ...and you would have to learn it. Can I answer that? Please.
34:26: Okay, thank you. Ultimately, if I can answer quickly... ...the response would be that if you reject this revelation...
34:33: ...that your worldview is reduced to absurdity. That would be the ultimate test. If you reject this revelation...
34:40: ...then your worldview is reduced to complete and utter absurdity. Is that a choice? That someone chooses absurdity over Christianity?
34:47: Is that what you're saying? Well, I think atheists do that. Atheists choose absurdity? Well, I think that their worldview results in absurdity...
34:55: ...because they can't make sense out of science... ...they can't make sense out of logic... ...they can't make sense out of human value and dignity. I would completely disagree with that.
35:01: I think that you can make sense of logic and dignity... ...regardless of whether God exists. Otherwise, we would have our prisons and our insane asylums...
35:10: ...filled with atheists, but that's my own see. But the question I have now is... ...whether a person is going to choose to believe in Christ...
35:19: ...or does this faith come from somewhere else? Does it come from God, or do we select? Oh, great question.
35:25: That's a glorious question. Faith comes from God. Faith comes from God. So we cannot choose. We make choices every day...
35:31: ...but they're only consistent with our nature as fallen human beings. So we don't actually choose to have faith. No, we do choose to believe in Christ...
35:38: ...but that's because God, by His grace... ...has caused us to repent and believe. He takes a dead sinner... ...and He raises him as a spiritual mother.
35:43: He doesn't have a choice. So that means you didn't have a choice. No, no, no. Once again, I do believe...
35:49: ...but I only believe because of what Jesus... ...on this point, Jesus says... ...no man can come to me...
35:55: ...unless the Father who sent me draws him... ...and I will raise him up. Why doesn't
36:00: He draw everyone? Well, your assumption there is that... ...that grace can be demanded. I'm just wondering...
36:06: Don't answer. You're asking for an answer. The answer is God is sovereign. That doesn't seem to make sense.
36:12: God can do what He wants. He wants you to go to hell. God can do what He wants... ...but, I mean, if I was asking questions...
36:18: ...I would ask them more if you wanted to be with God. So, you're saying God wants you to go to hell. But if God wanted me to be with Him...
36:24: ...why wouldn't He cause me to want to be with Him? Well, ultimately the problem here is that...
36:31: ...your assumption here is that... ...grace can be demanded. I'm not assuming that. I'm just wondering...
36:36: ...if God wants me to be with Him... ...why wouldn't He cause me to want to be with Him? Well, the problem is here...
36:42: ...again, the worldview question... ...because you're asking a Christian to answer you. So, we have to answer you from a Christian worldview. And the
36:47: Christian worldview is that... ...all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. And so we're all fallen in Adam.
36:52: And we don't desire to be with God. It says none seeks for God. And so when people do seek for God...
36:58: ...they do so only for a miraculous work... ...of the Holy Spirit of God. And that's what we pray for for you, Beth. So, nobody actually chooses.
37:05: No. Again, you make choices all the time. But they're only consistent with your nature. If God draws you to Him...
37:11: ...then you will come to Him. But if He doesn't draw me... ...how can I be at fault for that? Thank you, Omar. Can I respond to that? Okay.
37:17: I'm trying to get this right this time. If we take a person that's fallen... ...in sin, don't seek for God...
37:25: ...they all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. They're hostile to God. They're enemies in their mind. They suppress the truth of unrighteousness.
37:31: They don't desire God. But when God draws someone who's a dead sinner... ...to Himself, He raises them to spiritual life...
37:37: ...they will do what alive spiritual people do... ...and that is repent and believe. Why doesn't God make Himself just a little more obvious...
37:43: ...so that we would have more reason to believe in Him? Well, my response to you was... ...my response to that would be...
37:49: ...that He is eminently obvious... ...and it's obvious in all that you're doing tonight... ...because you're standing on Him tonight.
37:54: It's eminently obvious that God exists? Yeah. My answer to that is... ...that you're acting in a way today...
38:01: ...that is consistent only with the Christian worldview... ...that nature is uniform... ...that we could project into the future based on...
38:08: I consider that nature is uniform as an atheist. I don't see the connection. Well, my response as a
38:14: Christian would be... ...that you can't justify it. Okay, but what I want to know is... ...why doesn't
38:19: God... ...if He wants to reveal Himself to us... ...He can make it a lot more obvious? We can imagine a universe or a world...
38:25: ...in which His existence is a lot more obvious than it is. Considering the fact that...
38:31: ...it says in the Bible... ...Jesus says at least nine times... ...that He will do what you ask...
38:38: ...if you pray and you believe... ...so you could pray for something right now... ...and you could get
38:43: Jesus to do a miracle... ...and prove to us that He's real... ...if the Bible is telling us the truth, right?
38:48: Can I answer his question and you answer his? Sure. There's two questions. The first, when you say, Omar...
38:53: ...and this is from my heart... ...when you say, why isn't God more obvious... ...the answer from Scripture is that God says...
39:01: ...that He's made Himself evident to all of us... ...and since the creation of the world... ...His attributes,
39:06: His eternal power... ...and divine nature have been clearly seen... I think that that's simply not true... ...when we look at the majority of the world.
39:12: If we look at any culture that hasn't been preached Christianity... ...they don't develop it spontaneously.
39:18: But they worship, Omar. Yeah, the fact that they worship... ...doesn't demonstrate that Jesus is the Savior. Well, from a biblical perspective...
39:24: ...they worship because they suppress the truth about God... ...and exchange Him for God only. How does a Chinese Confucianist suppress the truth about God...
39:32: ...if they've never heard of Jesus? Because he knows God and He's evident to him... ...but he rejects God and says...
39:38: ...well, I'm answering you from Scripture... ...you're asking a Christian here... ...so what God says, the answer from God... ...is that He exchanges the truth of God for a lie...
39:45: ...He doesn't want God in His thinking... ...and He exchanges God for an idol. Okay, I have another line of questioning.
39:51: Is it possible that God is not a necessary being? Does that possibility exist? No. No, it does not.
39:57: How do you know it doesn't? Because there must be a necessary being. Why must there be?
40:04: Because everything we see around us is not necessary... ...including you. You're not necessary for this world to function...
40:09: ...neither am I. Okay, the fact that we are not necessary... ...doesn't demonstrate that something is necessary. Then where do you... ...then
40:16: the question I would... ...well, then the reason I'm saying that... ...is because something has to be necessary... ...because
40:21: there are things. They're all contingent... ...meaning they're not necessary. Something has to be necessary...
40:29: ...and is not. From something necessary... ...only something necessary can result. Because if you say... ...God must exist for this universe to exist...
40:35: ...then the universe is a necessary result... ...of God's existence. It's a necessary result... ...not a contingent result.
40:41: From something necessary... ...only something necessary can result. Well, tonight we haven't argued... ...the cosmological argument tonight...
40:48: ...or anything of cause and effect. We're arguing something different. We're arguing transcendentally with you. So we're not arguing...
40:55: ...that's not even two anymore points. Well, I still wouldn't be willing... ...to answer your question. The last thing though... ...didn't have a question mark at the end.
41:00: It was a period. So, I'm just saying... ...is there a question for me? I'm just... ...you still haven't demonstrated...
41:05: ...how there's a connection... ...between the fact that... ...the universe happens to exist... ...and the fact that God must be necessary. From nothing, nothing comes.
41:12: So, what does that mean? If there is nothing... ...nothing will come. The laws of physics...
41:17: ...don't back that up. We know that things... ...come from nothing. Omar, your misuse of... ...quantum mechanics...
41:24: ...is not... This is commonly accepted... ...basic quantum mechanics. There's about ten different...
41:29: ...interpretations of quantum mechanics. But the fact remains... ...that things appear... ...from nothing all the time. And... ...you're
41:35: talking about... ...experiments at a subatomic level... ...where things already are existing. What exists in...
41:41: ...a place where nothing exists. There's other stuff that exists. You're talking about... ...everything from nothing.
41:47: You're not saying... I'm not talking about things. I'm talking about things... ...coming from nothing. Next question. Are... ...particles
41:55: nothing? Particles are the something... ...that come out of nothing. Omar, you ask the question.
42:03: Okay. So... ...my point is then... ...that... ...if... ...God
42:09: is required... ...to make something... ...out of nothing... ...how do you arrive... ...at that conclusion? Doesn't that preclude that...
42:16: ...nothingness... ...must have... ...other properties? If nothingness cannot exist... ...without something... ...then you're making a statement about...
42:22: ...the attributes of nothingness. How can you know that? That's not something... ...that you can know. I don't understand the question.
42:27: Can you answer that one? I don't understand what you're saying. Do you understand what you're saying? No, actually... ...I'm not even following...
42:32: ...what you're saying here... ...because I'm not arguing... ...for any kind of... ...cosmological line. So I'm not following... ...how this is relevant. Okay. So this is my question.
42:40: If... ...how can you make the claim... ...that... ...before God created the universe...
42:47: ...that... ...nothing could exist? Well... Doesn't that say something... ...about the... I never said that...
42:52: ...because God existed. So... ...who made that claim? I didn't make that claim. You're not saying that before...
42:57: ...God created the universe... ...nothing could exist? Nothing physical existed... ...would be what I'm saying.
43:03: I mean God existed... ...so of course something existed. Okay. That's why he's Irish and Yahweh. But you're saying... ...he made it from nothing. He made the universe from nothing.
43:09: So... ...it came from something... ...that didn't exist. Yeah, he made the universe... ...he made all material things... ...out of things that were...
43:15: ...invisible. Things that were... ...not material. He made all material things... ...but he himself is not material. It seems to...
43:21: ...it seems to be you're... ...demanding that... ...existence... ...somehow requires an explanation...
43:26: ...but non -existence... ...does not require an explanation. So it's more natural... ...for things not to exist... ...than for them to exist. I would say that yes...
43:32: ...existence demands an explanation. Like for example... So then the existence of God... ...demands an explanation. It seems more natural...
43:38: ...that God would not exist... ...by your own... ...by your own reasoning. Not if by the very definition... ...the being's nature...
43:44: ...is self -existent. Why couldn't the universe's nature... ...be self -existent? Because we know material things...
43:51: ...are not eternal. That's why. But the fact that the universe... ...is not eternal... ...meaning that it didn't go back... ...eternally
43:57: in time... ...does not mean... ...that it didn't come to exist... ...at a certain point. One minute. Yes, the universe did come to exist... ...at a certain point.
44:02: I agree. I agree. I'm not saying... ...that the universe is eternal. I'm saying that the universe... ...could come to existence...
44:09: ...and yet... ...time... ...is not... I think we...
44:14: ...we agree then. That the universe... ...does not have to come... ...from... ...something. I didn't...
44:20: ...I didn't say that one. I mean, I don't even know... ...the law of cause and effect. Okay. Because we're
44:25: Christians... ...we can assume... ...uniformity in nature. Even if this universe... ...is not natural... ...or not eternal...
44:30: ...we don't... ...necessarily know... ...that... ...whatever is outside... ...of this universe...
44:36: ...is not... ...eternal. And it does not have to be... ...something supernatural. Right, but that's... ...that's your claim.
44:41: But the Christian claim is... ...that God has revealed himself. It's a revelational epistemology. We can know things for certain... ...because God has revealed them.
44:48: And I don't see... ...any evidence for... ...this. We can hand it to you... ...all night. Ten seconds. I don't buy it.
44:55: I'm sorry. Well, you're an unbeliever. We know that. I... ...you know...
45:00: ...if you have... ...some kind of supernatural proof... ...if you want to do that prayer... ...and get Jesus to... ...to show us... ...that
45:05: he's real... ...please do. All right, that concludes... ...the cross examination. Can I respond? Can I respond to that? Sorry, you can do that...
45:13: ...in your closing statement. Make a note. And be sure to include it... ...in the ten minutes... ...of a lot of time... ...that concludes...
45:18: ...the cross examination. Also, this moves just in...
45:27: ...before the closing statements. Vocab will be...
45:33: ...taking a... ...small break. But it's most necessary. And he...
45:42: ...asked me to... ...announce... ...the Star Wars action figures. Thank you, by the way...
45:50: ...everyone, for coming... ...and staying for so long. Thank you guys... ...for being such a... ...good audience. Thank you. Yes, so we're down...
46:00: ...to the last 20 minutes. Closing statements... ...will begin with Jeff...
46:05: ...and Vocab. They'll have ten minutes... ...to make their closing... ...to wrap things up... ...and blow from their perspective.
46:11: I think they're going to make it... ...from the bathroom. What's that? I think they're going to make it... ...from the bathroom. And then
46:16: Omar... ...and Sean will also... ...begin in ten minutes... ...and they will have... ...the final word...
46:22: ...in tonight's debate... ...which makes more sense... ...Christianity... ...or... ...or...
46:27: ...Atheism. I think a quick observation...
46:34: ...of the tables up here... ...reveals there's way too many... ...water bottles... ...on this side of the table. The cause of the theft.
46:44: Closing statements. That requires a lot of water. You're up,
46:51: Omar. How much...
47:04: ...time do I have? You have ten minutes... ...to share. We want to thank...
47:10: ...all the volunteers... ...that made this happen... ...especially Luke Pearson... ...a lot of people... ...did a lot of stuff...
47:16: ...so... ...for all the people... ...with apology... ...Elizabeth... ...one day... ...we were just talking... ...Jeff and I said... ...hey, let's do this thing...
47:22: ...and it sort of... ...spiraled out of control... ...but... ...I think... ...I think it was a good thing...
47:27: ...and we want to do more of these... ...we're in... ...negotiations... ...to do some more... ...similar things. I do want to extend...
47:34: ...a lot of gratitude... ...I mean this seriously... ...to Sean and Omar... ...they... ...they had to put up...
47:39: ...with a lot of kind of... ...disorganization... ...at various points... ...and they were gracious... ...through the process... ...they were not hard...
47:45: ...to work with... ...you know... ...you had to go to people's houses... ...you had to do a lot of stuff... ...and... ...they did it... ...and...
47:51: ...it was... ...enjoyable... ...but hectic... ...to put it all together... ...and
47:56: so I do thank them... ...for that... ...and also... ...you know... ...I know it's not exactly easy... ...you know... ...these
48:01: are human beings... ...you know... ...come here and there's... ...religious doohickeys on the wall... ...and whatnot... ...and I know that's not easy...
48:07: ...so just... ...thank you for coming up here... ...now back to the...
48:18: ...the matter at hand... ...our argument was... ...primarily twofold... ...it went in a lot of directions... ...this is true...
48:23: ...but... ...we want to know... ...how the atheists... ...can justify... ...how they can know anything...
48:29: ...how we can... ...say... ...that it is true... ...that A cannot be non -A...
48:35: ...in the same way... ...in the same place... ...and... ...you know... ...the law of non -contradiction holds...
48:41: ...we want to know... ...and the answer seemed to be... ...it's just... ...that way... ...we know it's that way...
48:47: ...but that assertion... ...doesn't actually justify... ...for why the atheist... ...believes it...
48:52: ...and... ...I... ...didn't hear really an answer... ...and... ...I didn't hear good answers...
48:58: ...to... ...why we have to kick out... ...early eyewitness testimony... ...remember... ...why did the church not say...
49:04: ...sure... ...we'll take the gospel of Peter... ...well... ...because the gospel of Peter... ...was written in 150 AD... ...and Peter was dead by then...
49:09: ...so Peter probably didn't write it... ...and it has exaggerated... ...embellished... ...resurrection story...
49:14: ...nothing like... ...the almost primitive... ...version... ...you read... ...in Mark and Matthew...
49:20: ...it's simply... ...describing... ...events... ...with... ...a wonderment... ...but it's really...
49:25: ...just black and white... ...there it is... ...and... ...it makes sense... ...because it's written...
49:30: ...within a time frame... ...of the eyewitnesses... ...and... ...these documents... ...hold up well... ...when
49:36: we talk about... ...Julius Caesar... ...how we know about him... ...and things we know... ...the problem though...
49:42: ...for the atheist... ...is... ...the bias... ...against God... ...acting in history... ...of course... ...God cannot...
49:49: ...do... ...a resurrection... ...because there is no God... ...to perform such an act... ...so if someone says... ...there
49:54: was a resurrection... ...you heard him say... ...I wouldn't believe it... ...no matter what... ...we don't just... ...say...
50:00: ...oh... ...courageously... ...we just accept... ...I think people get raised... ...from the dead all the time... ...that's the unique... ...aspect...
50:05: ...of this... ...Jesus of Nazareth... ...that he has power... ...over life and death...
50:10: ...and predicted... ...his own demise... ...that's... ...different... ...about it... ...and
50:15: the thing is... ...that... ...when you look... ...the disciples... ...were transformed... ...by this...
50:21: ...and I'd like to really know... ...how do you explain... ...this kind of... ...rocket ship of Christianity... ...out of this first century...
50:27: ...Palestine... ...Palestinian area... ...into the greater... ...greater Greco -Roman era... ...now...
50:32: ...one way... ...Christianity spread... ...and we talked a little bit... ...about this... ...was through martyrs... ...and they may say... ...well we don't know...
50:38: ...that people die for a lie... ...all the time... ...it is true... ...people die for lies... ...but not if they know...
50:44: ...it's a lie... ...to coin a phrase... ...liars make... ...poor martyrs... ...and Bart Ehrman... ...I have one of his books...
50:49: ...on the table... ...about Peter, Paul... ...and Mary Magdalene... ...and he... ...seems to attest... ...to the martyrdom...
50:55: ...of Paul... ...and of Peter... ...and he talks about this... ...he even believes...
51:00: ...that... ...in the Gospels... ...you have an example... ...of prophecy after the fact... ...because there's a place... ...where
51:05: Jesus says... ...you're gonna get drug around... ...and basically... ...you're gonna get executed... ...at the end of John...
51:10: ...and Ehrman attests to this fact... ...that... ...some way... ...Peter will die as a martyr... ...he says... ...well whoever... ...wrote
51:15: John... ...knew that happened... ...threw it in there... ...but... ...even if that's the case... ...you still have Peter dying...
51:21: ...as a martyr... ...how... ...why... ...how do you explain this... ...this...
51:26: ...fact of history... ...and you have similar things... ...with Paul... ...also in the Ehrman book... ...they just wanna dust it off...
51:32: ...because it's too... ...incredible... ...to think of God... ...acting that way... ...in history... ...but God has acted that way...
51:38: ...in history... ...and it's a beautiful thing... ...because it means... ...that... ...this material body...
51:44: ...valuable as it is... ...will break down... ...but it's not all there is... ...to our existence...
51:49: ...and yet... ...I'm glad the atheists... ...value material... ...but... ...it'd be nice if they valued... ...the creator of the material...
51:55: ...but God values the material... ...and says... ...I will restore it to life... ...so this historical... ...stuff...
52:01: ...isn't just... ...nonsense... ...that doesn't matter... ...it has practical implications... ...for our lives...
52:07: ...realize this... ...please... ...we'll stop the time... ...and give Jeff a moment...
52:12: ...to come back up... ...first
52:25: I wanted to thank... ...you guys all... ...for coming tonight... ...we're blessed to have you guys... ...and also thank Sean... ...and Omar for coming...
52:31: ...you guys... ...it meant a lot to us... ...that you guys came... ...so thank you guys... ...truly very much... ...what have we learned this evening...
52:37: ...well... ...we've learned I think... ...that... ...people who deny God's existence... ...can offer... ...no philosophically cogent...
52:43: ...answer or explanation... ...for how we can do... ...the most basic things in life... ...appeal to the uniformity...
52:49: ...in nature... ...appeal to the rational... ...intelligible universe... ...appeal to... ...uh... ...things like laws of logic... ...and...
52:55: ...and also appeal to things like... ...human value and dignity... ...atheists all the time will say... ...but Jeff... ...but
53:00: Jeff... ...in vocab... ...we do this stuff... ...we do appeal to the universe... ...because it is uniform... ...we do use the laws of logic...
53:05: ...we do believe... ...uh... ...that there's meaning and purpose... ...in life... ...we do believe that... ...and of course... ...you know... ...we say... ...yes...
53:11: ...we know that you do... ...but your world view... ...can't account for it... ...and it is a world view... ...when you reject
53:16: God's existence... ...it leads you to a particular view... ...of the universe...
53:21: ...it doesn't leave you neutral... ...it leads you to a particular view... ...of reality... ...a particular view of man...
53:27: ...and men and women... ...and so it does... ...now ultimate thing here... ...remember my slide up guys... ...I had a slide up little stick figure guys...
53:33: ...there you go... ...uh... ...it's awesome... ...Luke did that for us... ...this is what we essentially... ...have been saying tonight... ...you have two teams tonight...
53:40: ...both standing on something... ...that's something... ...that's what we believe... ...about the universe... ...about life... ...about
53:45: reality... ...about the world around us... ...we're standing on a world view... ...it upholds what we're doing...
53:51: ...and you have on one side tonight... ...people who are standing on God... ...things that make sense... ...in the Christian world view...
53:57: ...that they can't answer... ...uniformity in nature... ...laws of logic... ...human value and dignity... ...we're saying...
54:02: ...God... ...God... ...and we're standing on... ...God... ...they're standing on the same things...
54:09: ...they're standing on God... ...but they're saying... ...no God... ...no God... ...you see... ...what they're saying...
54:15: ...is not consistent... ...with what they are... ...doing... ...and you ask a very good question...
54:21: ...about God... ...and the things that we do... ...and the answer is this... ...the wrath of God... ...is revealed from heaven...
54:26: ...against all ungodliness... ...and unrighteousness of men... ...who suppress the truth... ...and unrighteousness... ...because that which is known...
54:32: ...about God... ...is evident within them... ...for God made it evident... ...to them... ...God says... ...He has made Himself known...
54:37: ...to everyone in this room... ...and everyone in this world... ...the problem is not intellectual... ...ladies and gentlemen... ...the problem is spiritual...
54:43: ...it was for a vocab... ...and I... ...before Christ... ...turned us to Himself... ...and brought us into a relationship... ...with Him... ...and it's true...
54:49: ...for our friends tonight... ...and we do pray... ...that God would grant you... ...the same grace He gave us... ...they're demonstrating...
54:55: ...that they know God... ...they're suppressing the truth... ...about Him... ...and we're all guilty of that... ...to some degree... ...until the
55:00: Holy Spirit of God... ...opens our eyes and hearts... ...and turns us to Him... ...during a radio show... ...an
55:05: interview with Todd Friel... ...Christopher Hitchens... ...famous atheist... ...was asked a question... ...knowing
55:10: God... ...but suppressing the truth... ...about Him... ...and Todd Friel asked him a question... ...sir, is it possible... ...that you... ...the reason you rage so much...
55:16: ...against God... ...is because you just want to live... ...your own autonomous way... ...living any way you want to... ...any way you want to... ...any lifestyle that you prefer...
55:23: ...without being accountable... ...to your Creator... ...Christopher Hitchens... ...world famous atheist...
55:28: ...said... ...I think that's highly probable... ...yes... ...and I think tonight... ...it's been shown... ...not just probable...
55:34: ...but evidence... ...that all of our opponents... ...have been doing... ...they've been living as though... ...they're living in God's world... ...but denying
55:39: Him... ...with their lips... ...Cornelius Van Til... ...a man who's greatly influenced... ...my thinking... ...a very... ...amazing
55:45: Christian philosopher... ...said that the atheist... ...is like the small child... ...who smacks his father... ...in his face...
55:50: ...he's dependent... ...upon his father... ...to sit him in his lap... ...to do it... ...or he can't reach...
55:56: ...and tonight... ...our call to our friends... ...that are sitting next to us... ...is this... ...Jesus says...
56:01: ...what shall it profit a man... ...if he gains the whole world... ...and loses his soul... ...we call you...
56:07: ...to turn... ...to Christ... ...to trust in Him... ...and His conquering death... ...and resurrection...
56:12: ...for life. And this brings us to the final time segment of the evening...
56:25: ...the closing statement... ...for Omar and Sean... ...they have 10 minutes... ...and this will bring us to a close... ...and
56:31: get the final words. We'll start the 10 minutes... ...and we'll begin... ...and I'll let you do your stuff.
57:01: First I want to say something about... ...the worldviews that... ...Jeff was just talking about...
57:06: ...we all actually... ...do use the same worldview... ...but... ...unlike what he says... ...it's actually...
57:11: ...one based in nature... ...he's just using it... ...using a supernatural... ...explanation...
57:17: ...for it... ...without having any... ...supernatural evidence... ...you know... ...or evidence of anything supernatural... ...to
57:23: back it up... ...you know... ...we do have... ...this... ...same...
57:28: ...basis... ...it's just... ...a natural one... ...and logic is...
57:34: ...not... ...just that way... ...as they said... ...it is a description... ...of the interactions... ...of matter... ...without matter...
57:40: ...without matter... ...there is no A... ...so A equals A... ...means nothing... ...the only way...
57:45: ...that it makes... ...sense to us... ...is because we are... ...in a material universe...
57:52: ...so... ...back on to the... ...prepared... ...closing... ...I wanted to give...
57:57: ...a couple more examples... ...of very strange... ...and unethical laws... ...given by God... ...in the Bible... ...and I didn't have...
58:02: ...that I didn't have time for... ...in the opening... ...one of the most... ...disturbing slavery laws... ...is slavery... ...it's found in... ...Exodus
58:08: 21... ...verses 20 to 21... ...if a man... ...strikes his male... ...or female slave...
58:17: ...if a man... ...strikes his male... ...or female slave... ...with a rod... ...and he dies... ...with his hand... ...he shall be punished...
58:22: ...however... ...however... ...if he survives... ...a day or two... ...no vengeance... ...shall be taken... ...for he... ...is his property...
58:29: ...so not only... ...can you own other people... ...you can beat them... ...you can even beat them... ...so badly... ...that they die...
58:35: ...as long as they don't die... ...immediately... ...if anyone has been swayed... ...by the argument... ...that these...
58:40: ...slaves were just like... ...people with jobs today... ...this passage alone... ...should make it clear... ...that that's not true... ...in case you think...
58:47: ...that the New Testament... ...does something to reverse... ...the Bible's position... ...on slavery... ...here are a couple... ...of more verses...
58:53: ...about it... ...the slaves be... ...obedient... ...to those... ...who are their masters...
58:58: ...according to the flesh... ...with fear and trembling... ...and the sincerity... ...of their heart... ...as to Christ... ...considering the fear...
59:04: ...and trembling... ...that Christ... ...can put into a Christian... ...that is a pretty... ...strong statement... ...another one...
59:12: ...from... ...1st Peter... ...is slaves... ...and reverent fear... ...of God... ...submit yourself... ...to your masters...
59:18: ...not only... ...to those... ...who are good... ...and considerate... ...but also... ...those... ...to those... ...who are harsh... ...this
59:24: one tells... ...even the slaves... ...who are beaten... ...and mistreated... ...to be submissive... ...and completely respectful...
59:30: ...of the people... ...who own them... ...this is not... ...the kind of... ...thing that... ...makes
59:35: sense to me... ...from a good... ...and moral God... ...it's the kind of thing... ...that you would expect...
59:42: ...from... ...you know... ...people... ...writing thousands... ...of years ago... ...who... ...didn't have... ...you
59:47: know... ...the kind of ethics... ...we have today... ...and at least... ...in that part of the world... ...so...
59:55: ...does this make sense... ...as a message... ...inspired by the omniscient... ...creator of the universe... ...here
01:00:01: are a couple... ...more verses... ...showing that women... ...are dirty... ...and should be treated... ...as property... ...of their husband... ...and their fathers...
01:00:07: ...in Deuteronomy 22... ...it tells us... ...that a woman... ...who does not bleed... ...and thus... ...poo her virginity... ...on her wedding night...
01:00:13: ...is to be stoned to death... ...despite the fact... ...that it is not... ...that not all virgins bleed...
01:00:19: ...it then goes on... ...to... ...talk about... ...what to do... ...in cases of adultery... ...and rape... ...which
01:00:24: it treats... ...as a property crime... ...against the husband... ...and her father... ...of the girl... ...not as a violent crime... ...against her...
01:00:30: ...perhaps worst of all... ...if an unmarried girl's... ...rapist is caught... ...she has to marry him...
01:00:37: ...and he... ...just pays her father off... ...in Leviticus 12...
01:00:44: ...it shows disdain for women... ...in two different ways... ...at once... ...after a woman... ...gives birth...
01:00:49: ...she is considered unclean... ...and she contaminates... ...things too... ...so for example... ...if a man is not supposed...
01:00:55: ...to sit where she's sat... ...the same goes for women... ...during their periods... ...the other way... ...this
01:01:00: passage... ...denigrates women... ...is by saying that... ...when a female child is born...
01:01:05: ...her mother is unclean... ...for twice as long... ...as she is... ...when she has a male child... ...again the
01:01:11: New Testament... ...continues to keep women down... ...with such gems... ...as this passage... ...the
01:01:16: women... ...are to keep silent... ...in the church... ...for they are not permitted... ...to speak... ...but are to subject themselves...
01:01:22: ...just like the law... ...also says... ...if they desire to learn anything... ...let them ask their husbands... ...at home...
01:01:27: ...for it is improper... ...for a woman to speak... ...in church... ...trying to explain away... ...things like the Bible's...
01:01:33: ...support of slavery... ...degradation of women... ...and its inaccurate depictions... ...of the world... ...and natural phenomena...
01:01:38: ...as simply... ...being... ...because of the culture... ...they lived in... ...doesn't make sense for God... ...it makes sense for man...
01:01:45: ...of course... ...people would write books... ...which were very much... ...of their time... ...and contain the kinds of knowledge...
01:01:50: ...and ethical values... ...that people... ...had at that time... ...if... ...if it were written...
01:01:56: ...or inspired... ...by an omniscient God though... ...particularly one... ...who is passing down laws... ...and information about the world...
01:02:02: ...to his followers... ...there is no way... ...in which it makes sense... ...um... ...halfway... ...five minutes...
01:02:08: ...there is no way... ...in which it makes sense... ...for him to bow down... ...to their ignorance... ...and inhumane tendencies... ...if slavery is wrong...
01:02:14: ...it should be clearly defined... ...as wrong... ...if women are equal... ...they should be clearly... ...and consistently defined... ...as equal...
01:02:20: ...if rebating a woman... ...is a crime against her... ...it should be clearly defined... ...as a crime against her... ...and
01:02:26: I'll... ...I'll let Omar... ...take over... ...there's
01:02:35: about... ...four and a half minutes left... ...so...
01:02:43: ...this was... ...um... ...I really would like to thank... ...Pastors...
01:02:49: ...Bo, Kat, and Jeff... ...for allowing us to come here... ...and uh... ...have our first debate... ...it's been very challenging...
01:02:55: ...I would... ...um... ...encourage any of you... ...to debate... ...these fellows on... ...uh... ...hip
01:03:01: hop... ...or whatever topic... ...in which they might be experts... ...it's... ...it's difficult... ...but
01:03:07: I can promise you... ...next time I'll... ...I'll be a little more prepared... ...um... ...I thank you also... ...for
01:03:12: listening to us... ...and being patient with us... ...uh... ...I would like to... ...just comment on the fact that... ...we...
01:03:17: ...we still haven't heard any... ...good reasons why... ...the universe... ...necessarily requires...
01:03:23: ...uh... ...a god to be logical... ...uh... ...we both agree that the universe is logical... ...I don't think I have to explain...
01:03:28: ...as an atheist... ...why it's logical... ...I don't have to explain why circles are round... ...it's just a property of circles... ...and
01:03:33: to look for a deeper explanation... ...um... ...doesn't necessarily make any sense... ...I can say that...
01:03:38: ...perhaps there's... ...some sort of... ...uh... ...invisible unicorn... ...which... ...decrees that all circles must be round...
01:03:44: ...and this universe... ...must have round circles... ...and it must have... ...logical things occurring in it... ...but... ...that's not a very good explanation...
01:03:50: ...and... ...so I don't see any reason... ...to draw that conclusion... ...um... ...I do want to comment also on...
01:03:56: ...the statement of miracles... ...in the New Testament... ...and I didn't prepare... ...much about miracles... ...but I would like to... ...uh...
01:04:02: ...quote a passage from... ...the... ...uh... ...a debate between... ...William Blake Craig... ...and Walter... ...Simon
01:04:07: Armstrong... ...so forgive me if it's not entirely... ...uh... ...perfectly relevant... ...but I think it does address...
01:04:12: ...a lot of the issues about miracles... ...in the New Testament... ...um... ...these... ...arguments do not refer to moral... ...morality...
01:04:18: ...they refer to the resurrection... ...of Jesus... ...if that resurrection occurred... ...it would be a miracle... ...some atheists...
01:04:24: ...try to... ...prove the impossibility... ...of miracles... ...one attempt describes... ...or defines a miracle... ...as a violation...
01:04:30: ...of the laws of nature... ...and defines a law of nature... ...as a generalization... ...without any exception... ...then if Jesus... ...walked
01:04:35: on water... ...this act would be an exception... ...to generalizations... ...about buoyancy... ...that we took to be... ...laws of nature...
01:04:41: ...so those generalizations... ...would not really be... ...laws of nature... ...and Jesus' walk on water... ...would not really be a miracle...
01:04:46: ...this is a cheap... ...verbal trick... ...if anyone walks on water... ...without any natural... ...explanations... ...that's a miracle...
01:04:52: ...in my book... ...such miracles are... ...logically possible... ...it is still a big step... ...up to the claim... ...that we have adequate...
01:04:58: ...evidence to believe... ...in any miracle... ...when people declare... ...that a miracle occurred... ...we need to look... ...at the evidence...
01:05:03: ...for and against their claims... ...the evidence... ...against the miracle... ...includes all the evidence... ...for the generalization...
01:05:09: ...that miracles... ...the miracle violates... ...our common generalizations... ...about buoyancy... ...are supported by... ...cobious observations...
01:05:15: ...plentiful testimony... ...numerous experiments... ...abundant explanations... ...tenable theories... ...to outweigh...
01:05:20: ...so much evidence... ...one would need... ...a very strong reason... ...to believe in any miracle... ...to defend this miracle...
01:05:27: ...it's suggested... ...that Jesus' followers... ...had no expectation... ...that Jesus would rise... ...from the dead... ...witnesses...
01:05:32: ...with expectations... ...are less reliable... ...but this does not show... ...that witnesses... ...without expectations... ...are reliable... ...moreover...
01:05:38: ...we can't know... ...that these witnesses... ...had no expectations... ...narratives like the story... ...of Jesus' resurrection...
01:05:43: ...were common in that area... ...around that time... ...there's no doubt...
01:05:53: ...that many people... ...have experiences... ...that seem to come from them... ...seem to them... ...to come from a higher power... ...outside of themselves...
01:05:59: ...such as these witnesses... ...of these so -called miracles... ...the problem is that... ...way too many people... ...have such experiences...
01:06:04: ...different people... ...with different religious beliefs... ...have different experiences... ...that seem to come... ...from different gods... ...even though the experiences...
01:06:09: ...seem to be quite similar... ...it cannot all be right... ...indeed
01:06:14: the majority of them... ...must be wrong... ...if only Christian experiences... ...are correct... ...as traditional Christians claim...
01:06:20: ...it follows that religious... ...experience in general... ...cannot be reliable... ...according to the Christian... ...perspective itself... ...religious experiences...
01:06:27: ...also occur... ...only when emotions... ...run high... ...and only to those people... ...who are predisposed... ...to belief... ...if you're seeking
01:06:33: God... ...God will make His... ...existence evident to you... ...no surprise there... ...take
01:06:38: a pinch of belief in God... ...and a dash of a desire... ...to experience God... ...stir up emotion... ...and you have a recipe... ...for religious experience...
01:06:44: ...this recipe has been... ...franchised by preachers... ...who induce religious... ...experiences during worship... ...through these services... ...and
01:06:49: elaborated... ...by ascetics... ...who starve themselves... ...in order... ...to see God... ...the problem...
01:06:55: ...is that such... ...recipes work regardless... ...of whether or not... ...there is any God... ...to cause the experience... ...that is why such experiences...
01:07:00: ...are not reliable... ...indicators of God... ...I think that we have heard... ...a lot of explanations... ...for why this...
01:07:06: ...God... ...that... ...Christian worship... ...must exist... ...I'm not convinced... ...I believe that...
01:07:12: ...I'm not being convinced... ...but I am thankful... ...for this opportunity... ...to come and speak to you... ...thank you. That concludes...
01:07:25: ...tonight's event... ...which makes more sense... ...Christianity... ...or Atheism... ...we have one more... ...opportunity to...
01:07:31: ...thank our participants... ...first... ...we'll again thank... ...Omar... ...and Sean... ...thank you...
01:07:42: ...and also... ...Rokav... ...and Jeff... ...I want to thank...
01:07:52: ...the many... ...unnamed people... ...who did so much... ...leading up to this time... ...and making it possible... ...thank you... ...for being here...
01:07:57: ...and Apologia... ...for sponsoring the event... ...hopefully we can do something like this again... ...real soon... ...thanks...