Thoughts on the Dr. Drew Show, ESPN’s Shame, and Continuing with Anjem Choudary

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01:03

Well greetings, welcome to the dividing line, my name is James white We didn't think we are gonna be doing a program today

01:11

But it ended up working out. We need to do one fairly quickly this morning. And so here we are

01:16

I wanted to have the opportunity to All comment a little bit on The events of This past week as most of you know

01:31

Right during the last dividing line Right around the time

01:36

I was finishing up commenting on the Bruce Jenner situation And yes, I I realize it is politically incorrect to even refer to Bruce Jenner evidently

01:46

Bruce Jenner Was beamed to the enterprise Because if you refer to Bruce Jenner any longer you are a hate -filled bigot and You should be imprisoned and your rights taken away and so on and so forth, but Anyway right as I was finishing that commentary a phone call came in from a producer at CNN and that is how the

02:16

Invitation came in to be on the dr. Drew show. I've never seen the dr. Drew show. I don't watch

02:22

CNN and I watch HLN I I Suppose I should have tracked down some videos someplace but I was told that they wanted a spiritual perspective on The issue of the

02:36

Bruce Jenner a situation. I told him straight up what I'd be saying and that I would not be ishy -squishy and so on and so forth and They said that would be that would be absolutely fine

02:50

And I wasn't told of course that it was a situation where you have an entire panel of people who have no particular particular training or life experience to give them any meaningful opinions on almost anything other than maybe fashion or a few things like that, but that's the nature of the public discourse in our land today and So for those of you who didn't see it

03:18

My my my favorite bearded theonomist Jeff Durbin There Apollo Gia is

03:29

Putting Apollo Gia radio is putting together their studios right now and In fact,

03:38

I've got an invitation to to join them once their studios are finished Hopefully next week, but obviously they have enough of it done to do something and So they put together clips from Basically people holding cell phones in front of TVs.

03:57

I guess I guess this stuff is a one -shot deal. It's not archived or whatever I don't know and So I played this last night

04:07

This is how I started class last night at Phoenix Seminary where I'm teaching apologetics right now and So I thought it would be a good start with this and also a little advertisement for Those fellas, so let's let's take a look at what they put together and then we'll have some some comments

04:29

After that. Well, I don't know why you're getting nothing from me because you're plugged in So you've got you've got no sound

04:47

Drew talking about Bruce Jenner. This is an apology a moment What's up, guys?

05:00

This is Jeff Durbin with apology of studios here with the apology a moment last night's episode of headline news with.

05:06

Dr Drew was Incredible. Dr. Drew who actually might be confused with Phil Vischer from VeggieTales Dr.

05:14

Drew engaged the mr. Bruce Jenner situation. Mr. Bruce Jenner You all know is the famous athlete and grandfather who has recently attempted to go from being a man

05:23

To pretending to be a woman Dr. Drew interviewed. Dr. James White who actually could never be confused with the

05:32

James White from the Knicks Never not even if you tried not if you dressed James White up like a basketball player put a basketball in his hand

05:40

It could never confuse it to it never happened. It's impossible Well, maybe I mean that's closer.

05:46

That's closer I mean they both can dunk what we're hearing here is a fundamental clash of worldviews

05:52

And that's not really what we've gotten into a discussion of yet. What's the class to ask the question? What if Jesus was right when he said have you not read from the beginning that God made them male and female?

06:03

But your religious beliefs don't necessarily Apply to something that humanity has been doing since before the

06:09

Bible was even conceived But he's saying but the point of course is this is a worldview issue This is a worldview issue and we're gonna have to decide what our ultimate authorities are

06:19

I'm not sure who you are referring to but the Jesus I'm referring to rose from the dead I think that gives him a little bit of extra authority to address a particular issue from right here

06:29

I gotta go to our audience member who has a question. Oh swish After the obvious groaning from one of the panelists.

06:35

Dr. James White tweeted Someone should let the very kind Panelist lady know her deep sighs at the mention of God or Jesus are very audible even to me to all of us.

06:44

Dr White's and then This happened if we don't discuss the worldview that gives rise to our decisions

06:51

Then all we're doing is giving our own personal opinions. That's that's not how you deal with societal issues

06:59

Idle issue. This is a Caitlyn Jenner. It's a personal issue. You can do it with your body. You can do whatever Very clearly is a societal.

07:05

I feel like I hear some fear in your voice. I'm just saying I feel like there's fear that It Yeah, dr.

07:12

James White has debated over a hundred and forty times in public moderated debate from moss to universities all over the planet

07:19

And what gets him is feminist hipster pop Psychologists. Yeah, that'll do it

07:25

And James you you have an opinion on this. Yes Well, most definitely I'm very concerned that so far

07:31

We really haven't heard a meaningful moral and ethical worldview brought to bear on the big issue here, which isn't about Television programs or reality shows it's about what has happened to this man and how the nation is

07:46

Responding to it and happiness is found in a completely different direction. Dr White is right happiness is only found in one place and that's in the

07:55

God of peace That's in Christ or a face with today is a collision between two antithetical worldviews a worldview with God as the foundation and a universe of total meaning or a worldview apart from God and a universe of total meaning less

08:10

Ness when we abandon God, it's been said we don't believe in nothing Now we'll believe in anything when you abandon

08:17

God up is not up down is not down Right is not right left is not left darkness is light.

08:23

There are no definitions. There is no meaning there is no truth God became a man to rescue us from our sins

08:30

He died for sins and he rose from the dead and he calls all to come to him for life Forgiveness and peace that is what

08:37

Bruce Jenner is Seeking peace all of us are it's only found in the

08:43

God of peace For more and engage in the culture with the gospel go to YouTube Apology of studios and subscribe

08:53

All right, there you go appreciate that from Jeff and the gang at apology a radio

09:03

Put it all together there save me the time for to do that. Did you hear the pop psychologist lady say that he can do anything he wants with his body

09:16

If the program had not moved on to someone who super glues their teeth into their head,

09:24

I Was going to ask dr. Drew about The Reality of the fact that there are people who believe that their appendages are

09:40

Foreign objects that they do not belong in their body and and therefore they want to have them removed and and some people go ahead and Do that with sharp?

09:48

sharp instruments And then become disabled and want to be treated as disabled and get the benefits of being disabled

09:56

Even though they disabled themselves, and I wanted to ask dr. Drew About that because if we can do whatever we want with our body

10:07

Then there's nothing wrong with that. Is there I? Mean we can't say that that's that that's inappropriate.

10:15

We can't say it's immoral we can't say it's indicative of a of a a mental disorder on the part of someone and Of course,

10:23

I didn't get a chance to do that. And of course The co -host Sam was given free reign to just take a complete shot about how

10:31

I'm making Christianity look bad and all the rest of stuff without even

10:37

Providing for a response which was just you know, just so transparent as to what we're dealing with Lots of thoughts have come across my mind since then

10:47

I would love to invite dr. Drew and Samantha to join me on the program.

10:56

We don't have commercial breaks here and they'd actually be treated with respect and Would be allowed to say what they need to say.

11:04

They just have to actually Engage in extended dialogue. I was reminded a number of times by the nature of the non

11:14

Conversation that wasn't a conversation that almost nothing meaningful was said in that entire period of time

11:22

From it from a meaningful philosophical theological Social perspective all you had were people sitting around saying

11:30

I think this well, I think that well I think this well, I think that well, that's nice. Have you thought why you think that?

11:38

Well, I feel this I feel that I feel this I feel that and feelings and thoughts were all jumbled together and the idea of any type of rationality any type of Having a foundation even even recognizing that you have a secular worldview.

11:56

I mean even dr. Drew at one point said well it is a secular nation as If well, that's given and that means the secular worldview now trumps everything else and everything else has to be subsumed under that and it's like Well, there you go.

12:08

There's here you watched the revolutionaries. These people are revolutionaries and They have won the revolution by just assuming they've won it

12:19

They've they've not offered any argument they've just taken over and Basically say all the rest of us shut up.

12:28

Shut up. Shut up. Shut up. Stop talking. We're not listening anymore Doesn't matter what you're saying

12:34

Etc. Etc. What you need to understand Especially with the two ladies on the panel who could not just go

12:43

First of all is not an argument Okay, that is that is that kind of reaction is either for children or imbeciles one of the two

12:53

It is immature and it shows an utter bankruptcy of Capacity to actually engage in meaningful dialogue adult dialogue the way we're supposed to do it but what's important to recognize is

13:10

Those individuals Would vote in a second to have my civil it my civil liberties removed in a second now as Long as they get to have their human autonomy as long as they get to continue to have their iPods and their physical things

13:29

And and go with the flow They'll be happy with that But they would vote

13:37

Almost instantaneously to shred the First Amendment. That's what we're facing

13:45

Those the people who are now taking over the control structures of government and that's why we can

13:53

No, I did not. I did not watch it. I Didn't I didn't they don't like you much at all.

13:59

They took much more time to To go after you in the after show Yeah, well that that makes sense that that's the cowardly way of doing it

14:07

Yeah, no, it was it was cowardly from the get -go and all three of them sat there and the mic guy disappeared somewhere but they

14:15

Boy, they don't like Christians. They don't like Christianity and we were all so judgmental and you they actually said this

14:22

I don't actually remember you actually saying that they were gonna go to hell. No, I never said that. Yeah Well, that's the takeaway

14:28

That you were you were all They know they know that that's the message of Scripture for all sinners outside of Jesus Christ and that that's just an expression of their detestation of the gospel but they know they can't engage and Provide any meaningful reputation.

14:44

You just have to shout down the other side. You just have to you know, that's got these folks They would vote in a second to get rid of religious liberty not realizing of course that that they're the ones losing their liberties in the process, but the idea of of clear thought

15:03

Wow What what can I say? What can I say? so What we're seeing today

15:12

Very very obviously is The the fleshing out of the degradation of the moral and spiritual fabric of our nation to where You can have a 65 year old grandfather

15:29

Pretending to be a woman mutilating his body and It's all It was very clear from the panelists

15:37

The ultimate good in human experience is for an individual to be happy these people are autonomists

15:47

The greatest good is autonomy. I get to determine what is good. I get to determine how

15:52

I can be happy and I Really? I wanted

15:58

I was thinking about Tracking down a Short portion of a video

16:04

I didn't get around to it because we had to hurry From saving private Ryan or any of the other movies that Portray accurately for example landings on D -Day or you know,

16:18

Iwo Jima or whatever else and those few moments of terror in those landing craft as that last bit of protection as Flimsy as it was was about to fall down and they have to run out toward the enemy without protection and I was gonna play that and freeze it with the

16:47

The looks on the faces of these these men these young men and ask the question is

16:54

Happiness really what it's all about Do any of these men look happy right now?

17:02

That would not be a description of them They would not be happy they were terrified

17:09

But you see they lived in a day when we viewed mankind as something more than a mere animal

17:18

They lived in a day when they had been taught that What makes a man a man are words like honor

17:29

Duty Character Responsibility and That often in this life promoting and Cultivating those things will not result in happiness

17:50

They understood the difference between happiness and joy happiness is a fleeting state of mind joy is something that one can have in Horrific circumstances

18:03

If you've ever read The Hiding Place, you know exactly we're talking about but there could be people who experience joy in Dachau and Auschwitz Because they had character

18:15

Because they had honor and duty and dignity Because they recognized that mankind was something more than an animal what we listen to from those panelists

18:28

Is not only a level of immaturity that is absolutely shocking but it is it is ethical nihilism it

18:38

Is empty it has nothing to offer and it cannot long survive no culture that becomes that has any

18:50

Framework upon which to be able to respond to any kind of meaningful pressure

18:56

What is gonna happen to a culture that has that as its moral and ethical fiber

19:02

When an American city disappears under a mushroom cloud from a terrorist attack What's gonna happen then collapse?

19:12

absolute collapse That's what we're looking at and and clearly they don't care

19:20

They're getting their pay They've got their BMW They've they've got their fancy clothing and they don't care because they're autonomous and As long as they're happy things are good now

19:36

They all of a sudden find themselves in a nuclear winter and They'll be blaming everybody, but the only person they have to blame themselves

19:45

But they don't want to be bothered with that kind of that kind of thinking that kind of They don't want to be challenged at it makes people uncomfortable

19:53

You know, it takes my happiness away and that won't make me happy so so I just need to be happy The immaturity of our society just absolutely shocking absolutely shocking

20:10

What can we do we have to warn these individuals and they don't like being warned

20:18

We will be called hateful and bigots and and Again folks only

20:23

Give to people only give to people's words and opinions the weight that their thoughtfulness deserves if you're dealing with people who clearly well,

20:38

I kept thinking I kept thinking About the very humorous thing that Doug Wilson said to the wild -eyed lesbian chick at that debate at the

20:57

University Remember what he said? you know, she wouldn't let him get more than two sentences out before she and At one point he said and and you know,

21:10

I Frequently have thoughts that require more than two sentences to express and that's what

21:16

I was thinking is that on CNN HLN what what passes for and in fact, in fact,

21:25

I mentioned in the in the brief little thing I put on Facebook, which somehow didn't get deleted

21:32

Little brief little thing. I put on Facebook when when dr. Drew said This is this is a this is a complex issue

21:39

This is I mean that this kind of deep conversation just doesn't happen very often on television.

21:44

I just Was having a real hard time just not laughing Deep conversation

21:51

Wow. Okay. There you go. There's There's what our yeah

22:00

It's It's amazing. It's it truly is so I I'm I tried contacting yesterday didn't get hold of a bang to try again today to contact the producer of the the program and And You know communicate to them some of my thoughts and invitation

22:22

To actually address the issue meaningfully because that wasn't addressed meaningfully.

22:28

I mean, I just can't see how anybody can think that That I don't even know what to call it

22:38

Was was a meaningful conversation about anything But we'll see

22:44

I I fear that We walked into The norm of the culture.

22:51

Oh, yeah, and that's how all of this these people think and function and Frankly, it was an eye -opener for me.

23:00

Oh, yeah, and as I've told you a few times, you know We have the world view of the

23:06

Lord Jesus Christ against the world view of Jersey Shore and If anybody's ever even seen a commercial for Jersey Shore, you know what

23:15

I'm talking about it's vacuous and that's what I Walked into the middle of trying to communicate with vacuous people

23:23

Yeah the the emptiness of that world view and the emptiness of the the the thought process

23:32

And of course watching the tweets that came in afterwards. Oh my goodness I am

23:40

I Haven't done it yet, but I was gonna repost Using the

23:47

Logos visual thingy, you know create that nice -looking background and put it on Twitter and and Facebook but I am reminded once again of The Hebrew term

24:00

Zuloth Zuloth Zuloth is a term that is used in Psalm 12 and it means that which is vile

24:16

I'm sorry, Zuluth And The statement that is made in Psalm 12 8

24:26

English Bible Psalm 12 9 in the Masoretic text is The wicked strut about on every side and it literally starts off with surround surrounded

24:44

The wicked strutting strutting about we are the you become surrounded by wicked people who are proud of their wickedness and When does that happen when that which is

25:06

Zuluth that which is Vile Repugnant is

25:15

Praised and exalted amongst the sons of men Amongst the sons of men so when a society praises and exalts vile behavior the wicked are encouraged in their wickedness and They strut about so many times the psalmist talks about how grieved he is

25:45

At the reality of The behavior of the wicked and How many times do we read in Scripture of God having to remind the righteous that this life isn't all there is and That there will be judgment.

26:04

There will be justice and That that is the foundation upon which we are to base ourselves and to say

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We will survive Maybe not physically in this life I mean those who hate

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God have often killed those who love God because they are convicted by that but The reality is the judgment

26:29

Will come justice will be done and we are called to be a prophetic voice and to try to warn

26:36

Those who are I mean, I I truly feel for these young people. I mean they're

26:44

Their worldview is so Completely self -destructive It cannot provide them with the foundation

26:55

To be able to live any kind of life of human flourishing it can't it's not possible they have been robbed of any transcendent meaning and They really think it's wisdom to sit there going he can do anything he wants with his body you don't believe that that that Psychologically does not believe he can do anything he wants with his body yet.

27:23

I mean, I suppose eventually Sure, you know all every every expression of sexual deviancy will be normalized

27:34

Can you even use the term perversion any longer? What does that mean? I Get the feeling that from their perspective.

27:43

The only perversion is morality The only perversion is righteousness and That's when you've gotten completely to the point of woe to those who call white black and black white who call good evil and evil good and That involves a giving over on God's part and there's there's judgment there's judgment

28:10

So just some thoughts III Truly am amazed at the speed at which this has taken place but What will it bring in the future what happens when there is a true national emergency and This has become the fabric and fiber of This country won't hold together.

28:42

I want all together But that's what we're facing that's we're facing All right.

28:48

I there's some some thoughts about half the program on that. Everybody wanted to know

28:54

There you go. There's much more. It could be said I for one and Let me do address let me address this

29:04

I Do not believe that we as Christians have any way out in taking a stand on this issue

29:19

The man's name is Bruce Jenner will always be Bruce Jenner and To start calling him by any other name

29:27

Start using other pronouns no matter what the pressure of the society is to fundamentally agree that mankind has the right to change the reality of God's decree simply by their own autonomous will

29:46

Now those of you who believe in autonomous will I'll let you figure out what you're gonna do.

29:53

I mean, I honestly Do look at those of you who just bang away at autonomous will and free will fully

30:02

Against the testimony of Scripture that we have provided to you over and over again. I say

30:08

Y 'all do what y 'all want to do. I don't know how you're gonna deal with these these issues, but Your human traditions on that on that matter absolutely

30:20

Destroy having any solid foundation to deal with this subject but To capitulate to this sudden demand

30:32

That well You know Mike Michael Fallon says I want dolphin plastic he wants to be a dolphin and I think the government should pay for it.

30:45

Well government's paying for a guy in prison who's a traitor to the

30:50

United States to be trans Formed into something. He's not so why not?

30:56

I mean the the insanity of it all is shocking, but that's where secularism leads secularism is empty man is not autonomous and And to capitulate on this issue is

31:17

To fundamentally say I am more concerned about what the world thinks about me than what God thinks about me and I will

31:23

I Must be faithful To God who made Bruce Jenner a male now if you don't believe

31:31

God made Bruce Jenner a male But the Christian perspective is pretty clear on that Though there's a lot of people who don't want to give a second thought to it and so Combine that with the absolutely disgusting action of ESPN in Giving Bruce Jenner the

31:55

Arthur Ashe Award for courage. That is not courage.

32:01

What he did is not courageous What those men in those landing craft did was courageous

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You cannot define the term courageous outside of the terms of duty

32:14

Honor Character that kind of thing you can't it's not possible but that's exactly what

32:22

ESPN is doing and I am I am absolutely disgusted. I I know

32:27

I put this on silent. You all saw me doing that beginning but evidently, it's a oh

32:34

It went up one little one little thing there Um what what

32:40

ESPN is doing is is such an insult such an insult to those who actually do show courage that I'm I it is beneath contempt.

32:55

It is beneath contempt I don't even know how else to put it.

33:01

It's it's anyway There you go, there's there's some comments on that let's

33:15

Carla just said in channel. Why can't prison inmates self -identify as innocent and therefore be allowed back on the streets.

33:22

There is a question Who won the gold medal in the Decathlon who did well, there's no question.

33:33

There really isn't I mean But you can't but you you can't say Bruce Jenner did

33:39

Because Bruce Jenner doesn't exist any longer. No, so Well, I guess he's dead. Is that it?

33:45

I don't know. What do you Borg assimilated him beamed the Enterprise? I think I think that's the best way to handle it.

33:51

I The insanity of it all is is amazing, but The other side is enjoying their insanity and doesn't want to be bothered.

34:01

So There you go hard to shift gears I'd open up the phones because a lot of you would like to say the same things.

34:09

I just said but Repeating ourselves isn't gonna do us a whole lot of a whole lot of good So I'm going to continue doing what

34:17

I promised to do. Oh, by the way, by the way Shifting gears here after the program right after the program on Tuesday There was you know,

34:31

I Briefly commented on the David Barron turrets and fan debate Well, David Barron took to Twitter right after the program

34:40

Yeah you probably didn't see it because you were trying to get Skype set up and you know, we were doing the we got a program to do and so it wasn't a major deal, but David Barron took to Twitter just Complaining vociferously that I had misrepresented.

34:55

I remember I played his comments, you know, so playing whole sections come Well, you didn't say though that that I argued the

35:03

Apostles never enumerated. Of course, you're a Unitarian. Of course, you believe that and Obviously, I completely disagree.

35:10

You can't even begin to understand the New Testament outside of a Trinitarian paradigm I completely disagree with the idea that they did not enunciate these things

35:18

The entire gospel is Trinitarian that their roles are clearly delineated. It's it's Don't don't don't give me that but but don't give me it was really

35:27

Childish immature whining you just well, why not just interact?

35:33

Mr. Barrett what I actually said and what you said was that We don't find this view in intertestamental

35:43

Judaism therefore You're making a presupposition you're demanding that well if it's not there

35:52

Then we have to interpret the Apostles in a different sense and I go why

35:58

Are you saying God could not do some do what we said? He did and that is in the incarnation the outpouring of the

36:05

Holy Spirit do something that was unexpected prophetically, you can find it sure

36:12

Isaiah 9 6 things like that, but specifically You have a presupposition that you did not defend

36:22

Especially in light of New Testament evidence that You know give you an example

36:28

In the debate Baron tried very unsuccessfully to Get around the fact that in 1st

36:36

Corinthians chapter 8 Paul painfully obviously Uses the

36:42

Shema and expands it So that you have the father and the son being expressed tries to say it's actually

36:50

Malachi 2 10, it was really funny If you listen carefully to the debate, he says and and even the

36:57

Nestle all in text in its in its references refers us there to Malachi 2 10 and then you can tell he looked at the page and Also to to to do to also to the

37:11

Shema but also to And you could you could tell he wanted to say the text only directed us to Malachi 2 10

37:19

But then he looked which would be a good thing to look before you make comments like that. They looked and realized

37:24

Oh Drat, they also put the other one there. It's so painfully obvious The Malachi text is put there

37:34

Because of verbal parallels, but if you ask yourself the question, what is Paul saying but for us there is but one

37:42

God What is that coming from any? Meaningful scholar who has even a little bit of lack of bias

37:49

Knows what Paul's drawing from? It's the same thing with the the the rabbi

37:56

Thing about falling down in front of someone and kissing his feet versus falling. It's sophistry.

38:02

Mr. Barron. I'm sorry But I'm identifying you as a sophist Not as a serious

38:10

Theologian but as a sophist. Yes, sir. That's exactly what I did live with it. Get over it respond the argument go from there

38:18

So I want to mention that I found that rather Interesting after the program didn't pay much attention to it though for the obvious reason we had other things going on now

38:30

Want to get back to Anjum Chowdhury. I I saw this Was it was it in this feed

38:41

I saw a picture right as I came in in In Twitter and I wasn't sure where where this came from, but somebody was taking a shot at Anjum because there was there was a picture of him with Alcohol and of course as a

39:05

Salafi That would be absolutely no. No, no, no, no, but I couldn't understand what

39:13

Who was posting it or why or what was going on with it? You know, it could have easily just been him pouring it out in protest or something too

39:23

I since I couldn't see a Context on it. I wasn't able to follow up on it, but Anjum certainly is in The media a lot and so understanding his his perspectives is

39:40

Somewhat useful and so we can we go back Hopefully the sound thing is

39:47

Because I don't know what caused that sound all of a sudden start I just hit the volume button to max and it was already at max, but all of a sudden it started feeding

39:57

Strange how things like that work. Maybe it was sending it to another Source or something. Oh, yeah, right.

40:03

Yeah How many times you reset that machine recently anyway, okay Let's let's get back to Anjum Chowdhury and his comments in the debate with Sam Shamoon And by the way, let me mention something.

40:15

I didn't have time last time Someone contacted me and said

40:21

I you know, I'm a little concerned that you're reviewing this debate You know people could could take this to mean that you don't that you're somehow attacking

40:31

Sam or whatever I don't know why they would think that I said right at the beginning that what

40:37

I find fascinating is that Sam and I hear things very differently because of our backgrounds and We we have talked about the differences that we have and the disagreements that we have as to especially the shall we say the temperature of Response that should be allowed and I think

41:01

Sam would would would honestly admit That there are times that he loses control of his temper and and no and I don't

41:09

I would hope that he would not defend the times that he's done so but what

41:14

I brought out was that in this debate, it wasn't a matter of of Temperature or anything like that.

41:21

It was a different decision on the part of Sam and myself as to What we want to communicate and to whom?

41:39

I Would have responded to chowder ease sometimes lengthy diatribes

41:46

By focusing upon different things when you're in a debate You're listening the other other side

41:53

You you'll see I'm I'm quickly writing notes as quickly as I can and You need to understand that what

41:59

I'm doing at that point in time is I'm listening I'm trying to accurately hear what the person is saying.

42:06

I'm trying to actually accurately represent what the person is saying but there's also a secondary process going on which is absolutely necessary and that is

42:16

I am Prioritizing in light of the commitments I bring to the debate in regards to what my target audience is

42:26

I Am prioritizing the points in light of those free debate

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Specific commitments now, you know, some people might go into the debate and not even realize that They have made those commitments

42:42

The more clearly you've thought it through the more clearly you're gonna apply them as well but We're looking at a different audience and Very clearly

42:55

Sam is looking to press upon Chowdhury and his specific audience and a specific range of his audience

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Allegations of inconsistency That raise questions about the validity of the

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Quran and of the Especially in this situation Salafi Muslim system of theology.

43:25

I'm not so much focused upon that as wanting to make sure that Maybe a different portion of that audience the

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Muslim audience hears a compelling clear and Shall we say knockout?

43:45

Defense of Christian truth Now that means I'm not going to be pressing as much on Inconsistencies from the

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Muslim perspective But it's it's a choice that a person makes and it also, you know

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It also depends upon what you feel your strongest areas of Preparation and expertise are as well

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So I Don't believe debate should be cookie cutter things I'll I'll defend my choices as to you know

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Before my lord why I chose to do to emphasize this rather than emphasizing that But that doesn't mean that that's that's a necessary criticism now

44:33

I I I said to I Said you know Sam asked well, what'd you think?

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And so I said to him on on Facebook. I said well Neither one of you stuck the topic overly well

44:48

And it's true. I mean sure Sam presented argument for the deity of Christ Childry didn't even understand what the argument was and did not show any interest in knowing

45:01

So, you know from Sam's perspective, hey if he didn't refute what I already argued I'm free to go after whatever else

45:08

I want to go after Okay, you have that freedom. Would I do that? Probably not What I would do is

45:14

I would want to Present more and more arguments because I'm not so much

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You know, I I want the Muslim in Whose life the

45:25

Holy Spirit is working to have as much divine Truth to be used as the means of enlightenment by the

45:33

Spirit as I can possibly communicate in that given situation Now can the

45:39

Holy Spirit use the inconsistencies of Salafi Islam sure Again, it's a matter of you know, choosing what your priorities are.

45:48

So It's it's not meant to be a criticism of other methodologies.

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It is meant to be Educational in recognizing that when we who do debates do them

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We have to make certain decisions as to what we're what we're doing in the midst of that debate And by the way, the thing on HLN wasn't a debate.

46:09

I Mean when when you're given less than two minutes grand total That's that's that's not a debate

46:15

So it's completely different situation in that context in Samuel 8 13 to 14

46:22

God says Suleiman Solomon is his son. He said I will be his father and he shall be my son talking about Solomon now if you weren't with us last time or if like me you slept since This is this is an gem sitting there with notes trying to make the argument that Jesus being the

46:44

Son of God is irrelevant because everyone's the Son of God and Of course this ignores the fact as Sam's gonna bring up that this contradicts the

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Quran which does not allow any a scription of sonship at all and Secondly, it completely ignores the context of the use of the phrase

47:05

Son of God specifically in regards to Jesus because he is the monogamous we oss to say you the unique Son of God and the reaction of the

47:17

Jews that's funny a lot of a lot of even Shake Omar a couple weeks ago

47:24

Started off by saying well, are we gonna believe what how the Jews respond to Jesus? And the answer is yes

47:32

When when Jesus makes claims and the Jews respond and Jesus does not correct them

47:39

Then yes, we can look at that You know John chapter 5 classic example making himself equal with God in the rest of what follows

47:47

Jesus does not say Oh, I was not making myself equal with God What follows is just saying

47:52

I'm not making myself a separate God a competing God the father and I we do

47:58

What is absolutely harmonious? I? Do not I do not operate up Hey out to from myself

48:09

But I what I do I do in perfect harmony with the father, but he doesn't say oh, no, that's not what

48:14

I'm saying So it's funny they want they want, you know, they follow the old

48:19

Akhmet didot Jesus never said he was God worship me But when Jesus has opportunity to say

48:25

I am NOT deity You are not to honor me as deity. He says the exact opposite He says you're to honor the son even as you honor the father

48:35

He talks about the dead will hear the voice the Son of God and will live and every person listening to him

48:42

Already believed that God would call the dead out of the graves. It would be the voice of God. He's identifying is his voice.

48:48

I mean But again Only those in whose lives the

48:54

Holy Spirit is is acting are going to be able to hear these things that's why I want to be able to explain those things in that one context where they might actually be able to hear and and respond in Exodus 2223 we see that even

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Israel Yaku is his son as well. He said that Let my son go that he may serve talking about Israel my firstborn son

49:23

If you look at the Psalms 89 26 to 27, even the Prophet David is his son

49:29

He said also I'll make him my firstborn Higher than the kings of the earth and you can see even the angels are the

49:34

Sun So obviously everybody is a son, you know in the Bible sons by the tons, right but not unique sons

49:43

Not in the sense of Jesus identified himself as it really is a very shallow

49:50

It shows Serious disrespect on the part of Muslims when they keep making arguments like this that just simply don't have any validity

49:57

So, you know, you can't really rely on this I'm afraid to say son of God because everybody's a son of God and obviously

50:03

Jesus didn't say he's God So all you have is your own rationality. I'm afraid son a little rationality there a little rationality there

50:11

That I didn't understand a little rationality and you kept saying all you have is a little rationality and I'm What is a little rationality?

50:22

I I don't even understand that from a linguistic perspective doesn't prove at all Three and a half minutes.

50:29

Yeah, I'm on the case. Yeah, and In fact if we replace son of God with servant, I think you'll say exactly what we say and there'll be much more precise and In fact, if you look at Luke 4 41, he actually detested being labeled the

50:43

Son of God So, you know, I have a couple couple of things really in my first rebuttal Jesus as we said never said he's

50:50

God and His disciples never said he's God his disciples never said he was

50:56

God Now the only way to to substantiate that assertion is to buy into Well Peter didn't write second

51:09

Peter and Paul's not a disciple and John is is making things up and You know all all that kind of stuff

51:21

That's pretty cool. I just got ice. This is I just got a message from Jeff Durbin on my watch

51:29

Yeah, yeah, I just I just gotten that it's gotten that working today. And and so yeah,

51:35

I sort of feel like Yeah, yeah, I guess

51:40

Dick Tracy that would be it is sort of sort of what it is. Yeah Amazing what no, it's not.

51:46

No, it's not an Apple watch. No, it's not Apple watch It's a it's a Garmin actually, but that is pretty cool.

51:55

I'm a geek. I'm sorry You know, I mean technology all may disappear one day

52:04

Ball What? Huh ball Yes.

52:10

Oh, yeah. I was totally just distracted by that but it was sort of cool technology may all disappear one day and I'll be perfectly happy but till then

52:17

I I still like my geeky stuff and It's amazing what this thing can do

52:23

Did you know this thing can use the the Russian satellite system as well as the American?

52:29

No, I Did not know that at all It took six seconds for it to grab its position this morning before I did five mile run six seconds

52:40

That's amazing. And that that's shiny blinky shiny. Yeah, it is very With all these

52:47

Yeah, there are some people that are uncomfortable discover that I actually live a life and and do other things and and the people whining

52:57

Start whining get back down Jim, you know Okay, whatever. Thanks.

53:02

Appreciate that. Get back to you soon Jeff. Obviously, you're not watching right now, but that's okay and in fact

53:08

He admits that he's distinct About the father now catch that he admits that he is distinct from God the

53:17

Father you know if I were if I were providing a refutation if I was doing a rebuttal of the

53:27

Islamic perspective and I said something along the lines of and this clearly shows that Muhammad is not the only prophet ever sent by God The Muslims gonna go

53:41

We recognize that we know he's not the only prophet he's the last prop Can't have a prophet after him.

53:47

That's why the Ahmadiyya are all messed up but We all believe that God sent lots of prophets.

53:54

What are you talking about? If you if you think that's an argument then clearly you don't know what we believe.

53:59

Hello The doctrine the Trinity clearly differentiates between the

54:04

Father and the Son So if you think that's an argument against the Trinity, what does that prove that you don't know the doctrine of the

54:11

Trinity and That means you are arguing against something that you're ignorant of.

54:17

So why should we take you seriously? that's When I hear something like that, it's like okay.

54:24

I never says To worship me as well except when he accepts

54:33

Worship in a specifically religious context. I Love the scene at the end of Matthew.

54:40

I love the scene at the end of Matthew Jesus meets with the disciples on the mountain and they draw near and It says and they worshipped him, but some doubted.

54:54

I love the honesty. I Love the honesty Because I mean this this this is an amazing thing.

55:02

They saw him die which is another problem that the Muslims have because they don't believe that but Tom died and even in believing it in the resurrection the

55:14

Jewish idea of the resurrection was it's only at end times just being the first fruits is a is a

55:22

Reorientation of the Jewish understanding of resurrection and so Jesus is worshipped.

55:29

He's worshipped as the Son of Man. He's worshipped as the Son of God When when

55:34

Thomas confesses him as Lord and God Jesus blesses his statement of faith, you know again, there's no

55:41

Serious interaction with the biblical text at this point on Anjum's part and To be honest with you

55:50

Amongst Salafi Muslims. I I don't expect I Really don't expect any serious interaction on their part

56:03

Because the mindset of The Salafi is such that to Fairly interact with the text of the

56:16

Bible would almost be viewed as an act of compromise Those Muslims that I have listened to that do seek to interact in a meaningful fashion

56:28

With Christianity, they're never Salafi They're never Salafi And it seems to go together

56:36

Unfortunately, and oddly enough, you know, I have a quote here. I Wonder if you can guess who said this

56:41

Sam Who would be convinced that he is God when he's dying on the cross?

56:47

You know who said that Sam? Who would be convinced that he is God when he's dying on the cross?

56:53

well The whole point of that statement from a Christian and it's this is a

56:59

Christian I know who it is from a Christian is The humiliation of Christ the self -humbling of Christ that's why again folks if you if you get the opportunity to have a meaningful conversation

57:18

With a serious believing Muslim what you want to do is you want to get them to know?

57:25

Jesus in his fullness and unfortunately the elements of the beauty of our

57:33

Savior That we most often are having to communicate to secularists are

57:41

Not the same elements. We need to communicate to the Muslim That's why you you must emphasize the self -giving nature of Jesus's sacrifice that he gave himself

57:55

No one takes his life from him he lays down of his own accord But one of the texts that you really want to know and may

58:03

I suggest that you want to memorize Not so you can sit there and impress somebody by ripping it off real fast but so that there is a

58:17

I'm running out of time here There is there is something that really communicates to someone else when they can tell that what you're telling them from the scriptures is meaningful enough to you that you have

58:29

Thorough familiarity with the context Philippians chapter 2 the

58:34

Carmen Christi if you can express to someone The self -giving of Christ he makes himself of no reputation even though he's equal with the father.

58:45

He lays that aside Voluntarily he comes obedient to the point of death even the death on the cross.

58:51

Therefore. God is highly exalted Everything the Muslim needs to know about Jesus you can bring out from that text

58:56

His pre -existent glory his true sacrifice true entering into human flesh his true sacrificial

59:02

Giving and his exaltation the fact that he is Lord demands they bow the knee before him

59:08

Everything the Muslim needs to hear is right there. It's right there So if you really want to prepare yourself

59:14

There is a place to go know the Carmen Christi know how to explain it

59:19

The Lord will bless you if you prepare yourself in that way. Well, thanks for listening to program today We'll continue at that point when we get the opportunity next time.