South Africa Update and Responding to Marcus Rogers on the Trinity

Alpha & Omega Ministries

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00:33

Greetings welcome to the dividing line Hope to have a guest with us right now

00:38

Don't have that guest has disappeared for some reason So I'm going to stretch for at least a little while and then reschedule

00:47

If that's what we have to end up doing don't want to have to do that, but you know things things happen

00:53

I did want to mention I'll do this first and hope that Will get hooked up while I'm while I'm doing this in a truly incredible article

01:07

You know I just realized I forgot to post the Bible study. I did last night at church

01:15

Which would have discussed part of this but Yesterday morning

01:20

I read Stephen Chalk's new book radical if you remember chalk is a

01:31

Well in the UK he's called an evangelical Which tells you a little something about what evangelicalism means in the

01:39

UK? he's the one that referred to the penal substitutionary view of the atonement as Cosmic child abuse remember a few years ago, and so I I read his new book on Islam and dealing with radical

01:55

Islam Basically because I wanted to know so what do you have to say and you know once you have abandoned the concept of The need for atonement, which is what that realm of emergent

02:18

Unorthodoxy has done Well what that does is leave you with nothing to say

02:27

Nothing to say at all and Steve Chalk did not have anything to say The book never mentioned the sinfulness of man.

02:35

How do you deal with Isis? How do you deal with how to deal with Isis if you? don't

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Talk about sin if you don't talk about the real need of man. I don't understand it anyway So don't need to pick up the book it was it was short and there really wasn't much there

02:52

There really wasn't much to deal with but right along the same time yesterday afternoon

03:01

Robert Gagnon Posted a link to an article, and I've just heard from our guest rich, so I hope you're lining things up Posted a link to an article that should

03:16

I just I want to applaud I Want to applaud the

03:24

Grand Imam of Al -Azhar Yeah, yeah now the the

03:32

Grand Imam of Al -Azhar is One of the leading he really is the

03:43

Leading It's it's Sheikh Ahmed El -Tayeb

03:49

He is probably the leading Sunni jurist in the world And I want to applaud him and why wouldn't in the world would

03:59

I applaud The Grand Imam of Al -Azhar well because He said he was speaking at the

04:10

University of Syria He died a Tula in Indonesia, and I probably mangled that but that's okay.

04:19

He asked American Christians Where their actions were faithful to Christ?

04:27

He's held to be the highest Sunni religious leader in Islamic jurists in Muslim world And he also denounced

04:35

US government policy in regards to what quote unfortunately some heads of churches in the

04:44

United States accept same -sex marriages I Wonder what is left of the

04:52

Bible in those churches and What will they say in front of Jesus peace be upon him?

05:04

and his criticism of the US foreign policy Was that during the

05:10

Obama administration? We have used our tax money and influence to promote

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Homosexuality and same -sex marriage overseas especially in Africa. How can you not applaud that?

05:28

He's exactly right when the head that the leading Sunni Muslim jurist can look at the

05:36

Episcopal Church and go. Did y 'all forget the Bible? You just have to go.

05:43

How obvious can it get? How obvious can it be? Ah Well, there you go

05:52

Wow Leaves you stuttering leaves you leaves you stuttering.

05:59

All right, so are we set up we are close How can we be close

06:07

I've given you I've given you five minutes here maybe even six minutes is

06:12

Skype not functioning today It just hang on. I'm the one sitting out here talking.

06:19

Okay, you're you're the one no, we don't we're not trying to do video Remember what happened last time

06:27

No, no, no, just give me audio. Just just kill kill the video. Let's just talk because He's on the other side of the planet

06:36

And Rudolph you there? There you are good good good good good excellent good to have you with us

06:44

What's that? Yeah, you can turn your video off Rudolph because that that's just not gonna work.

06:50

We remember we tried that And we ended up having a hard enough time just with the audio stream

06:56

Last year, so I I wasn't I'm sorry. I didn't communicate that but I did not expect that we would try

07:01

To do a video connection at all. We need all the bandwidth we can coming out of out of Joburg there

07:09

So, can you still hear me? Okay, I just I love to hear that South African accent, you know

07:22

All right Rudolph let me introduce you here Rudolph bush off is Well Actually, I'm I'm I've got to admit

07:31

I'm feeling a little jealous because I understand you're you're doing something

07:37

You've got some people flying in and you're sort of doing the same thing with some other folks here just this next month

07:42

What what you got going on? Well, yes doctor. We've got Jonathan McClatchy from the

07:48

UK coming in actually Brian Marion and Rian Khan actually brought into South Africa and I thought

07:54

I'll just give a Helping hand with one of the slots that they have open.

08:00

So we have secured a venue at the University of Johannesburg Where he will a deal with both an atheist and agnostic and in the morning at the

08:11

Australian University Monash University, he will speak to Another agnostic there.

08:17

Dr. Charles fillet So I'm just helping out with that and then later this year.

08:23

We've got something exciting coming up But we still need to sort of just sort of Solidify the plans for that and then obviously we've got you

08:31

That are coming in May now if I say we I'm talking about me and my wife because as you know

08:36

This side of the planet as well We are also dependent on all the individuals helping out with whatever we can do for you as well

08:45

Well good now Things are different this time around. I Haven't actually seen the this schedule yet or and I think it's still sort of being worked on I would imagine but We're we're going someplace we haven't gone before and we're not going someplace that we have gone before so Give us a little a little insight as to what's going on Yes, I've been contacted by a few gentlemen that is done in Cape Town And I've always said from the beginning that I would love for you to go to Cape Town Due to the sort of the spiritual makeup of the

09:23

Cape itself and its beauty, but there's three guys there by the name of Yaku Martin and Shane and they really

09:31

Feel that with the whole homosexuality debate of last year that happened while he wasn't while you were in South Africa with our

09:38

Codrington And your self debate And everything that was happening sort of in the reformed circles

09:44

They felt it necessary to to actually get together with yourself and to have something that would equip the church in that setting and in that sort of place specifically and so they've from the 6th to the 8th of May they have

09:59

Basically sort of laid down a conference that will look specifically at inerrancy

10:04

And then out of that they will look at different toxic different topics like in The inerrancy of scripture the

10:12

LGBT sort of agenda, I think they also mentioned a bit

10:18

Looking at modern -day Apostles interfaith movement and the application of inerrancy in scripture, etc, etc

10:26

So that is what you'll be doing for that first week and I've looked at your schedule and as usual The people will obviously try to get the the most benefit out of your gifting

10:38

They could It's that nice way of saying I'm not gonna have a lot of free time That is exactly what

10:45

I'm saying. Dr. White and let me just say You know in the last few years that I've been here in South Africa I've not seen anybody who have such a work ethic as yourself and your exercise and your discipline and that is really inspiring

10:59

I do want to run. I do want to run along the Cape though We got to find someplace where I can at least

11:05

Least do a 5 or 10 K along the Cape. I need some pictures, man And I'll be honest with you

11:10

You're gonna be taken to an excellent spot Yoko already mentioned and he said to me we're staking you but that is a surprise that's probably good for a number of different reasons, but And of course, and of course, you know,

11:21

I I got Adrian to run with me once but I I still haven't quite Gotten you to do that for some odd reason

11:30

Yeah, I know doctor I'll be honest with you I think Adrian is still recovering For him for his recovery, so It's gonna

11:41

I'll join one of these days, but I first need to get a bit fit But you know what we will do as well and what we look to do then on Monday is

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I'm actually speaking to another film That you've made but you probably won't remember because you always have like 500 people flocking around you

11:57

But a chapter name of Monka Jacobs, we are looking to sort of have a debate in Cape Town itself for that Monday night

12:05

Maybe and this will sort of take we will sort of solidify that and see if we've got anybody

12:11

That would be a worthy debate opponent on that date otherwise the

12:18

University of Potter's through him they are incredibly I would say

12:24

You remember last year last time we actually put them off due to your schedule We couldn't get to them and you wanted to speak about but the

12:31

Edmonds Christology, right? that's a lack of Christology, but What we will do is then we'll definitely slot you know, if the

12:41

University of Potter's through him I know they they absolutely excited always to have you there. Well, I love

12:47

I love I love getting there I'm just I'm just I'm gonna take this as a positive thing that Things are sort of calm down there

12:57

Dr. White you don't watch the news because suddenly in South Africa there's this havoc on campuses but you know the interesting thing is that the seminaries itself is unaffected by by all the things going on due to the fact that their agenda cannot be raised there because the seminaries have already sort of fell in line and have conformed to Do what is you know stipulated by the students that are attacking specific institutions and etc, etc

13:23

But no, you'll app you'll be absolutely safe. And again, like I said, there's sort of a different spirit surrounding spiritual sort of community

13:32

So yeah, we'll definitely look to do that maybe on the 10th of May And if like I said if there's not a debate it actually materializes on Monday We will then have a two -day a session

13:45

I think at the University of butchers through him Which is also very fruitful for the students and then what

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I looked to do is at the University of Johannesburg I contacted a chap by the name of Farid a sock

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He's a very very very intellectual Muslim And he frequents other universities right of the world

14:06

Germany Holland, etc, etc. And he's He actually did a talk on The concept of violence and so forth in Islam But honest in his approach and also any sort of interpretation of what he sees and what he observes in his own community

14:23

But I think we might pursue something different if I can just get a hold of him and solidify a specific topic that might be

14:32

More if I can say the word scholarly then sort of the previous debates and then we also have quite a lot of Muslims Already putting their hands up saying pick me pick me

14:43

Or any sort of any form of debate with yourself and discussion I Will still run that past you but let me just say, you know for the guys out there

14:55

The church in South Africa really needs To hear on on foundational stuff that dr.

15:02

White is teaching on inerrancy on the scripture the Word of God The incredible attack of secularism

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South Africa's about 10 years behind so we've only discovered part the Edmund on our campuses now and he's got an incredible voice and influence scholarly on all a sort of the the

15:19

Christian institutions and Therefore I would deem it absolutely valuable and necessary for the kingdom to have dr

15:25

White speak with with with the students, but also with the faculty itself. Yeah, and it is always a positive feedback and I wish

15:35

I could I could bring dr. White to South Africa more often because you know the testimonies step just the interaction with the

15:44

Islamic community in South Africa and amongst even Christians It is always so fruitful and We've got so many good so much good feedback even from last year's debate with Graham Codrington, right?

15:58

I felt that I Received so many good messages just saying, you know, thank you so much for a for a sort of a

16:07

Salient Christian perspective because we do not receive We we basically receive all the liberal stuff in our faces.

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We don't see Christians Standing up and actually giving an account for for what they believe biblically and as you know, dr

16:22

White unfortunately the predominant voice in South Africa is sort of the health wealth word of faith

16:28

Theology, so it lacks substance on so many levels and when people actually listen to Somebody that is speaking sort of in an informed way like yourself it has got an incredible impact on the community and on a

16:43

Christian sort of acumen in South Africa specifically and I Also need to reiterate and just just say this as well that you know

16:52

I'm everywhere with dr. White and I've been privileged to done that to do that the last few years and Nowhere does he asks for money?

17:00

Nowhere does he ask for support? Nowhere is he a rock star? Nowhere is he unapproachable and you know, and nowhere do

17:06

I take Rudolph to decent restaurants? That's true, it's true there's no choice about it we do the we do the post -mortem over Over a quarter pound with cheese and fries.

17:26

That's right Yes, but yeah, I just need to say that and yeah for myself

17:33

I I'm very excited to see you go to Cape Town I think you're gonna you're gonna form relationships there with the guys there that are the guys are absolute golden and I believe that That's maybe in the future.

17:47

We will have you to come to South Africa for a month. They bring your family with so you can Yeah Yeah, I was thinking about that because you gave me dates yesterday

17:57

I'm like, yeah, you know There's there's room for a couple of the days in there if if if we need to do so I mean

18:03

I need to know the end date because we're gonna do England on the way back and try to set some things up there too

18:08

But at the same time, you know if if over the next week or so something else rears its head that would allow for that but I I know that I've mentioned before and and people find it strange one of the

18:24

Challenges that I have to keep in mind when I'm debating Individuals in South Africa is

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I have to remember they may have never met a Christian who could

18:37

Articulate the doctrine of the Trinity in a meaningful fashion Because as you point out to me the first time

18:43

I was there Most people who call themselves Christians in South Africa are not really functionally

18:49

Trinitarian in the first place And so I have to keep that in mind when I hear the same old misrepresentations of what

18:55

I believe coming from the Muslim side They may not have encountered folks that and even if they even if they have they may look at you and me as the aberrations

19:07

Because they see so regularly The less orthodox understandings or the confused understandings and things like that.

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So it's a it's a real challenge There's no two ways about it. And yet for some reason mainly due to that Man, who's no longer alive, but still speaks akhmadiyya

19:27

South Africa is a hotbed of Islamic Dawah, so people sort of wonder why why

19:33

South Africa well because it's you know one of the reasons is we still have the freedom to do it and Need to take advantage of that as long as we as long as we have it.

19:43

So to everyone who has Appreciated the debates that we've done down there in the in the mosques and things like that We're talking to one of the primary people

19:55

Responsible for putting all that together. It's a lot of work and very appreciative of Rudolph and the work he does down there

20:02

But just don't let the just don't let Jonathan wear you out, you know before it before I get there now

20:08

Another chance doc. He's also Scott. So he's gonna be pretty tough And so we'll also pack his schedule full in such a way that you you also only have to give return in a year

20:19

Good good. I Hope that you will keep him keep him moving so that he has fond memories of South Africa.

20:27

Well Rudolph I appreciate you taking the time. I know it's a little bit later in the evening there Let us know what's going on and I'm looking forward to any updates as to Who you've been able to get hold of and firming firming the debates up and things like that I did post the link that you gave me to the church that has the

20:46

Conference banner and information and stuff like that on it. I already put that on on Facebook and I think

20:53

I put on Twitter as well For our South African friends, so I'm assuming that do they need to contact the church

21:00

Is there is there is it just sort of anybody that wants to come can or is there a you know?

21:05

Sign up or do you happen to know? No, I think that everybody can go to sort of Goodwood Baptist Church in Cape Town and then follow the link and and the details

21:14

Will be there Specifically what is necessary for them to attend all the conferences that you will be presenting.

21:20

Excellent. Great Well brother, thank you very much for taking the time to fill us in and it's only a matter of weeks away

21:26

Looking forward to it That's why it's never lovely evening. All right, or lovely day as we're having here.

21:33

All right. God bless. Thanks Rudolph All right. Thank you very much for joining us

21:40

Obviously one of the reasons that I want to ask Rudolph on is

21:46

We've pushed South Africa way up in the schedule this year we're gonna try to Work in some material in London on the way home at least a few days if not like a week

22:00

But Almost all these churches are very very small the amount of funding that we can get for travel is is non -existent.

22:09

So This is one of those times in the year. We come to you our listening audience and we say these are the opportunities we have

22:17

We need your help to get there There are a lot of costs involved travel is expensive and If you can help

22:25

Please help. I know there's a lot of folks always knocking on your door You're not gonna get any robo calls from us.

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You're not we don't have any fundraisers this is all we do is we put a banner ad on the on the on the blog and I mentioned it on the dividing line and say

22:41

Here's here's what we're trying to go do. Can you help us do it? So if you can help us, there's a travel link and on the support us page and let us know

22:52

If you can help us to do that now I Honestly do not know

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How I got this link. I've forgotten it was Twitter or Facebook wanted to I don't know but I Was sent a video well,

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I know The the first link that I saw was a

23:20

Christian responding to this gentleman

23:26

You know, and I should have I should have pulled I Apologize, I should have pulled it up so I could give proper

23:33

Ascription to The Individual who sent me the original that that link and I just I just don't have it here.

23:43

I apologize for that but Certainly, I've noticed from the various things going on on Twitter and In fact,

23:55

I even got some some response specifically from this individual. Let me see if I can find

24:02

What I am referring to here Because I think this may have definitely come through Twitter primarily

24:13

But Blow this up a little bit here

24:24

You know Marcus Rodgers, I think he's put yeah puts a J in between I'm trying to see what the time was basically starting

24:34

Sometime yesterday, I I got started getting a lot of links that talked about Marcus Rodgers and I and a brief video denying the

24:44

Trinity and I'm like Okay You can find this material

24:50

Being posted 20 times a day across YouTube. I mean the amount of anti -trinitarian material out there is massive and So I started contacting a few folks and basically asking so why is why is this guy relevant?

25:06

Why why does this matter? You know what what's what's what's going on with with all of this and What ended up coming back is that he is a quote

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Christian artist Christian rapper and That The response had been given to him had been posted because he had so many likes on a on the

25:34

Facebook version of this video so You know,

25:41

I'm thankful that there are Christian artists out there who are extremely focused upon the content of their material

25:54

Everybody knows Shilin and everybody knows the the depth of the theology, you know lyrical theology and stuff like that Ivy Connerly we've worked with him and you know the depth of of doctrinal truth and content that's put in there

26:10

But let's be honest. Obviously if if this gentleman is getting a whole bunch of likes and followers

26:18

When he's not a Trinitarian and in fact believes the Trinity is wrong Once again the fact that Entertainment is not the same thing as worship is brought to the fore because Worship is based upon God's truth what he has revealed concerning himself and Just as you know

26:44

Phillips Craig and Dean Went around for years and years and years and nobody could care less that They weren't

26:51

Trinitarians or at the very least Some of them don't know one way or the other, you know,

26:57

I how do you lead people in worship when you don't know? Who God is? Those who lead in worship and of course

27:05

I have extreme problems the idea that the musical element of the worship service is the worship and then the worship stops and And The preaching begins and that's not worship.

27:21

No, it's backwards the the music is preparatory and The Actual worship is the proclamation of God's truth anyway so Marcus Rogers posts this video and it's extremely small small short,

27:43

I apologize, it's extremely short and So I'm just gonna

27:49

I'm just gonna play the whole thing and Let you listen to it and then we respond to it.

27:55

Just pretty much that simple Clearly the gentleman is a modalist

28:02

Evidently was at least at one time a member of a oneness Pentecostal type church and so it's a civilian this is the civilian modalistic denial the

28:12

Trinity that is a Unitarian Understanding that affirms the deity of Christ But to affirm the deity of Christ you have to deny

28:23

The deity of the Son. So in other words, the Son is not an eternal person Who is in communion with the

28:30

Father? Instead the the Son is a created being comes into existence at his birth in Bethlehem Obviously, this gentleman is not a theologian and Has not received any formal theological training

28:43

I was disappointed some of the things I saw in Twitter Some people were saying somebody needs to smack him outside the head.

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He's a heretic blah blah No, you correct the heresy you pray for repentance

28:56

You speak the truth. You don't smack people upside the head or all the rest this silliness

29:03

God's truth should not be handled in that way. My goodness Come on people But I'm I'm having to feed it to you with part of my desktop background, which

29:14

It's just one of my fractals. So don't blame me for the colorful nature But for some reason and we could not figure out why if I think it's because it's turned

29:26

You know like you're holding your phone like this. So it's taller than it is wider But the way my program communicates the program in there that gets it out onto the feed and stuff

29:37

Didn't like that and and Ended up going and making the guy look like he's a sumo wrestler or something, which is not

29:45

So I said now I don't want to do that. So there's gonna be a background and that's the only way we could make it the actual size so There we go.

29:53

It's only it's it's only just under three minutes long, so Even I can get through a three -minute video fairly quickly, but he does talk fast.

30:02

So anyways, here we go So, um, it recently came to my attention.

30:08

These guys were putting a radio show together They were saying that I was dangerous to Christianity I was teaching a false doctrine and they needed to expose me, you know, so I have a lot of patience

30:16

So I went and I talked to guys and I said, you know, what's wrong with what I'm preaching what I'm posting Where's your issue come to find out these guys were

30:22

Trinitarian. So I said, you know what? This is a quick fix. We can get in the Word of God to see what the truth is So let's hit it

30:27

Matthew 28 and 19 therefore go and make disciples of all nations Baptizing them in the name of the

30:33

Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. I check this out guys It's basic English right here in the name singular of the

30:40

Father of the Son of the Holy Spirit If you went to the bank if I went to the bank and they asked me to sign a check in my name

30:46

I wouldn't sign father. I wouldn't sign son because those are not names. Those are titles. I would sign

30:52

Marcus Rogers, which is my name I wouldn't sign my duty position in the army. I wouldn't sign that. I was a janitor.

30:57

All right now notice it's singular It doesn't say names. It says name because there's one they don't have they're not separate beings

31:04

All right And a second thing is where do you even see the word Trinity in the Bible that is a man -made word because it's a man -made

31:11

False doctrine we can even hit the Old Testament Isaiah 45 and 5 I am the Lord and there's no other apart from me

31:17

There is no God I will strengthen you though You have not acknowledged me verse 6 so that from the rising of the

31:23

Sun to the place of its setting people may know there is None besides me. I am the Lord and there is no other

31:29

God is saying there's nobody else up here when I form the earth When I sat on my throne, there's nobody at my left.

31:34

There's nobody at my right. There's nobody up here with me I am God and I'm God alone. Jesus said in John 10 verse 30

31:41

I am the father I am the father are one I do the run of me six and four here Oh Israel the

31:47

Lord our God the Lord is one. I understand something All right, the father the son the

31:53

Holy Ghost John chapter 1 God stepped off the throne and he sent down Jesus God couldn't come down in his full glory and walk this earth because man we wouldn't be able to handle it

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So he took a part of him and he put it in Jesus his son and he sent him down to die for our sins

32:09

All right And when Jesus died and he rose from the dead and he was ascending back into heaven He told the Apostles not to worry.

32:15

He would send a comforter He would send a part of him to live inside of us, which is his Holy Spirit, which is the

32:21

Holy Ghost There is no separate being they are all God. They are all one All right, but he put a part of him his

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Holy Spirit inside of us He put a part of him on this earth to walk this earth and to die for our sins.

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I'm not gonna argue I'm gonna leave it at that We can go back and forth in the comments and I've got plenty of more scriptures that I will post for in the comments

32:41

You guys be blessed. Have a wonderful day. I love you. The truth will set you free and I promise

32:47

I love you guys I'm preaching nothing. But the truth I'm preaching straight from the Word of God. There is no Trinity There is no three separate beings.

32:53

There is only Jesus Christ. He is the way be blessed Okay. Well, of course there are not three separate beings which immediately demonstrates that mr

33:05

Rogers has no earthly idea of the doctrines of Trinity is in the first place, but that's not unusual If you were raised in a

33:14

Pentecostal holiness oneness movement type thing We cannot expect that this gentleman is going to have an accurate knowledge of the doctrine of the

33:23

Trinity given his background so a number of times he Said well, there's not three beings and of course, we don't believe there are three beings

33:32

He doesn't understand the difference between being in person So clearly he's never studied the doctrine.

33:38

He doesn't know what the doctrine is He calls it man -made, but he's just simply repeating the same stuff that he's been taught in in his church

33:47

And I understand that my hope is that he will take the time to listen If you would like us to send him a copy of the

33:55

Forgotten Trinity My book on the subject that many many people have read Would be glad to do so if you just just contact us.

34:03

Let us know where to send it We of course do address modalism Civilianism when this

34:09

Pentecostal ism In in the book and I did send to him because he tweeted me said well if you do a video

34:16

I'll do a video to refute you. It's like okay fine You go ahead and do that but I also sent links

34:25

To a link to the debate that we did in Brisbane, Australia rather full Discussion of this particular issue

34:32

I noted that with that there were also links for example to the little radio Discussion with dr.

34:39

Bernard was on there. We also have at least part of the debate from 1999 with Saban only the first half we've never found the second half of that debate anywhere

34:51

But I think the audio may exist someplace, but the video doesn't Anyway, so we've debated this a number of times before it's not not our first go -around but you have clear misunderstanding on his part as to what the doctrine of the

35:08

Trinity actually is so let's let's go back here and Let's go point by point through and Respond to what now that people are saying is this guy performing

35:21

Dawa? No folks listen. Did you hear what he was saying? See if you think that if I'm seeing a bunch of people in channel and on Twitter.

35:29

Hi sounds like a Muslim No, he doesn't if you think that's a Muslim. You don't understand the Muslims or the one that's

35:34

Pentecostals believe you weren't listening. Sorry Sorry, don't mean to pick on you. You didn't hear him quoting

35:41

Matthew 28 19 to 20 Saying that a part that God sent a part of himself and put it in Jesus No Muslims ever gonna say that Now now he is not

35:53

Giving us a David Bernard level representation of oneness

35:58

Pentecostalism either It's almost sounds from his perspective like God can be chopped up into little parts and part went into Jesus and part goes into us

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And that's not even one of his Pentecostals. I mean, I mean this guy's sort of making it up as he's going along here Obviously, he's just going with what he's heard in his tradition in his background and isn't even representing his own position

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Accurately, but you've got to hear the difference. No Muslim would ever say what he just said about Jesus He is a

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Unitarian but the the Motilus are Unitarians, but they're

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Unitarians by Denying the deity of Christ the Motilus are

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Unitarians by denying the existence of multiple divine persons so the

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Sun becomes two persons in In in at least

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Orthodox you PCI teaching if you can use the term Orthodox To where the father in dwells the human being who is the son

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So the prayer life of Jesus becomes the human side of Jesus praying to the divine side of Jesus Which is the creation the created person the son?

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praying to the uncreated father who then after the resurrection becomes the

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Holy Spirit, but it's only just one divine person taking different roles and The Muslim would never say that never said at all so Got it.

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Got to listen close here folks. Got it. Got it. Listen close to what's actually being said. Here we go So, um, it recently came to my attention.

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These guys were putting a radio show together They were saying that I was dangerous to Christianity I was teaching a false doctrine and they needed to expose me now.

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Let me just mention something I would agree with them if you're not a Trinitarian This is the dividing line

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This is what defines Christianity versus what is not if you do not have the Sun you do not have the father either and one this

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Pentecostals likewise, I Mean if you're saying this is a man -made doctrine, you're saying this is this is completely false.

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It's not biblical then we're all Grossly misrepresenting God. This is a dividing lesson.

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This is not something we all go. It's no big deal We can do we can just you know get past this. No, this is a real dividing line

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This is something that is vitally important, you know, so I have a lot of patience I went and I talked to guys and I said, you know, what's wrong with what

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I'm preaching what I'm posting Where's your issue come to find out these guys were Trinitarian? So I said, you know what? This is a quick fix

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We can get in the Word of God to see what the truth is. So let's hit it a quick fix. Well It would be a quick fix if sir you understood

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Marcus the the doctrine of the Trinity which clearly you do not The doctrine of Trinity is it within the one?

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Being that is God there eternally exists three

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Co -equal and co -eternal persons namely the father the son and the

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Holy Spirit It's not that there are three beings who are one being or three persons who are one person the distinction that is

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Necessarily made because we make this distinction every day in our lives is between being and person

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There is only one being of God when you quote from Isaiah 45. You're you're preaching to the choir you're assuming that Yahweh is

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Unipersonal Unitarian, but you don't prove it and The real issue

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Marcus is whether the Bible teaches that the Sun as a divine person

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Pre -existed his birth His incarnation in Bethlehem.

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That's the issue Marcus because from what you're saying is The Sun was at best an idea

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But is not an eternal divine person you believe there's only one divine person

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We believe there are three divine persons and one divine being Why do we believe this because the

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Bible forces us to believe this Forces us to believe this.

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So before we go to Matthew 28, let me explain to you Why when we see

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Matthew 28 we see it in light of Matthew chapter 3 Which does come before that the baptism narrative of Jesus?

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Where you have the Father speaking from heaven. Jesus was not a ventriloquist You have the Father speaking from heaven

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You have the Son being baptized. You have the Spirit descending as a dove at the end of the gospel

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We are baptized in the name singular and by the way English is irrelevant The Bible was written before there was an

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English language, but the term anima is singular in Matthew chapter 28, but it doesn't say

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Jesus There is one divine Name being referred to but it's not

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Squishing father son and spirit into one person because even you don't have that There was never a time in Jesus's experience where he's father son and spirit and So and it's not dividing it out to where you have three different persons the use of the singular name

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But being baptized into that name Is very important But you're assuming something that is completely contradictory to the rest of what the

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Bible teaches and I believe in what I believe because I believe in only

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Scripture and all of Scripture and I do not believe that you can deal with all of Scripture and let me give you a foundational evidence of that if People have their

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Bibles Turn to the gospel of John chapter 17

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The position that Marcus is presenting cannot survive Cannot survive a

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An examination of the gospel of John it just it just it's just not possible. I can't do it because the distinction between the

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Father and the Son is plainly and Clearly made there by the way

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Someone just asked in Twitter could we say this Trinity equals mind father body Christ Spirit Holy Ghost Spirit one being three persons?

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No And Oh unorthodox Here's what we have in John chapter 17 beginning at verse 3

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This is the eternal life. They may know you the only true God This is Jesus speaking may know you the only true

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God in Jesus Christ whom you have sent I glorified you on the earth having accomplished the work which you have given me to do now father

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Glorify me together with yourself with the glory which I had With you before the world was now how can a

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Unitarian modalistic understanding explain these words Jesus is clearly referring to someone other than himself

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He is saying that they may know you Now is this an internal conversation is?

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Jesus schizophrenic here is just going that they may know you yeah me

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No Jesus is praying to the father. He uses personal pronouns of the father and he says the father is the only true

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God and To have eternal life. You must know two things the father and the son whom the father has sent now my

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Muslim friends deny the deity of Christ based on this because they Assume Unitarianism and say well if the father is the only true

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God then Jesus isn't the father therefore. He's not God Assuming Unitarianism rather than proving

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Unitarianism The reality is there is only one true

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God we are all not well We are all monotheists leaving all our Muslim for our Mormon friends off to the side.

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We are all monotheists there is only one true God and to know

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Eternal life requires that you know the one true God but Jesus amazingly unlike any prophet ever before him

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Says actually you need to know the father and the son and in describing himself

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He says I glorified you on the earth having accomplished the work which you have given me to do The cross is a is an accomplished reality from Jesus's perspective in this prayer.

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It's going to happen It's going to be successful but notice in Verse 4 the son

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Glorifies the father on earth. What is the request of the son of the father in verse 5?

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now father Glorify me. I glorified you I've accomplished the task that you sent me to accomplish

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Now father Glorify me Now this is a prayer but it is in the imperative now.

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There's a special kind of imperative in prayer. It's a You know, but there is a a sense in which

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I've glorified you now you glorify me Together with yourself not separate from you

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Not not in distinction from you, but father glorify me

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Together with yourself in what way with the glory, which

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I had in your presence Specifically para se auto para se auto by your side in your presence

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Before the world was now here is the key Marcus Because in UPCI theology in Oneness theology the son did not have a personal existence in the presence of the father the best they've ever come up with and it's just Absolute desperation is to say well the son was a plan in the father's mind the father planned for the incarnation

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However, you understand that the father planned for the ministry of Jesus and that plan was glorious But that's not what

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Jesus says. Is it he says? Glorify me now father para se auto in your presence tay doc say

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Hey icon the glory, which I Had is this a plan speaking do plans speak of course not this is a person speaking and He's speaking of a time pra to ton

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Kosmon. I know Before the world was This is a person speaking to another person

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The Greek pronouns are plain in any other context. There would be no question about this and He's speaking of a time

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When One person was in the presence of another person and those two persons

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Shared the same glory which now the second person is asking to receive once again

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That's what's being said here That's what's being said now

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I've seen the best That the modalists have to offer They cannot deal with this text.

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It just it's just not possible. I mean the the the desperation of The oneness

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Pentecost is point sad to observe sad to observe. All right You tie this together with Philippians chapter 2

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Where the son makes himself of no reputation? He does not consider the equality has with the father something to be grasped plans don't have equality with the father

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Marcus He has equality father he lays that aside in service to others takes on human flesh

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So here is a divine person thinking Considering before the incarnation

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Then acting in bringing about the incarnation by taking on that human nature clearly two divine persons in view and Any biblical evidence demonstrating that the

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Sun as a divine person pre -exists his birth in Bethlehem is the end of modalism

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It's the end of modalism. That's it You have to give it up You have to give it up So with that in mind then

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We can look at all the places where the three persons are brought together in Matthew chapter 28

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But we have to maintain the distinction between the persons Because the

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Bible teaches it Even in John chapter 10, let's go ahead and get there.

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We've already talked about math 28, but Matthew 28 and 19 therefore go and make disciples of all nations

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Baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. I check this out guys

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It's basic English right here in the name singular of the Father of the Son of the Holy Spirit if you went to the bank if I went to the bank and they

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Asked me to sign a check in my name. I wouldn't sign father. I wouldn't sign son because those are not names

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Those are titles. I would sign Marcus Rogers, which is my name. I wouldn't sign my duty position in the army

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Okay So why is it that Jesus so often refers to himself as the

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Son of Man the Son of God? It's not a matter of signing checks.

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It's a matter of what authority is being given Well, first of all

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Jesus says he has all authority in heaven and earth And this is this is post -resurrection

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So, who is he now, where is this divine person who has all authority?

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Where is he? What's he doing? He's not this is he's not the

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Spirit Because the Son is not the Spirit and one that's Pentecost. The Father is now taking the role of the

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Spirit. So what's Jesus doing? These are again if you the two things sola scriptura scripture alone

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Tota scriptura all of scripture You may believe in the sola part you don't believe the tota part you're not believing

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The testimony of the scriptures to the existence of three divine persons. You're just you're just rejecting it and Maybe you just haven't been faced with it before.

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It's hard for me to believe but It's possibility that I was a janitor.

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I now notice it's singular. It doesn't say names It says name because there's one they don't have they're not separate beings.

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All right, and We don't believe in separate beings Marcus You're saying you're what you're trying to say.

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I think is they're not separate persons. They are Jesus used personal pronouns of someone other than himself

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You have to explain that You have to explain the constant Consistent differentiation of the divine person of the

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Son from the divine person of the Father It's there in scripture over and over and over again, and you're ignoring it

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Thing is where do you even see the word Trinity in the Bible that there are all sorts of words that we use

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Marcus? That are not found in the Bible. The issue is do they represent the teaching of the

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Bible? There's all sorts of discussion of theocracy. There's all sorts of discussion of Theonomy these are not terms that are used in the

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Bible, but they are terms that are Relevant to our understanding of the categories of what the

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Bible teaches One this Pentecostal ism isn't found the

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Bible either Neither is rap Just to mention it man -made word because it's a man -made false doctrine

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We can even hit the Old Testament Isaiah 45 and 5 I am the Lord and there's no other apart from me

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There is no God I will strengthen you though You have not acknowledged me verse 6 so that from the rising of the

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Sun to the place of its setting people may know there is None besides me. I am the Lord and there is no other

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God is saying There's nobody else up here when I form the earth when I shot on my throne. There's nobody at my left

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There's nobody at my right. There's nobody up here with me. I am God and I'm God alone Jesus now notice notice

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The assumption you're making Marcus is Unitarianism We believe what Isaiah 45 says I have quoted

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Isaiah 43 44 45 over and over and over again the trial of false gods Only one true

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God, but then you have to Continue from there. That's the being of God Is that being of God shared by one person or three persons and the

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New Testament revelation is three not one Distinction of Father Son and Spirit and yet the identification of the

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Son as Yahweh Hebrews chapter 1 John chapter 12 Not just representing Yahweh, but as Yahweh as being immutable unchangeable

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You're only grabbing little pieces here and You're pitting them against other parts of the scriptures

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That's why your position is untenable and cannot survive cross -examination Then John 10 verse 30.

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I am the father. I am the father are one Isn't it amazing it it seems to me like that that you and TD Jake's Don't want it to be

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I and the father you want to be I am the father That's not what

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Jesus said Marcus and if you look a little closer Look at the original the verb is plural in John 10 30

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Not only in the preceding context has Jesus plainly distinguished between himself and the father

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Plainly distinguished to himself and the father But when he says I and the father we are one

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S men, he doesn't say I and the father we is one We are

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Plural not singular you you brought up the singer singular in Matthew 28 great

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Why not bring up the bring up the plural in John 10? because it distinguishes between The father and the son

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I'm the father we are one in bringing about the salvation of God's people

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The text is not saying I am the father. That is a gross misrepresentation of what

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Jesus is saying in John chapter 10 ignores the preceding verses where he has distinguished himself from the father

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You cannot walk through the Gospel of John and come up with the idea that I am

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The father because that's simply not what it teaches Good around to me six and four here.

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Oh Israel the Lord our God the Lord is one And of course we believe that but you are assuming that a had

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Means oneness of person rather than oneness of being because you don't understand the doctrine you're denying when people make arguments

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That the people are arguing against go. Yeah. Yeah, we believe that. Yeah Yeah, we've let that debt generally a demonstration of the fact that they're arguing against a straw man that they haven't taken the time

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To understand what it is. They're denying My Israel Yahweh Elohim Yahweh a

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God believe it Believe it firmly But I just believe all the

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New Testament then reveals as to how that one God Yahweh has revealed himself

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And it's not in the way that you are suggesting Understand something. All right, the father the son the

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Holy Ghost John chapter 1 God stepped off the throne and he sent down Jesus God couldn't come down in his full glory and walk this earth because man we wouldn't be able to handle it

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So he took a part of him and he put it in Jesus hit now. Now, where are you getting this? He took a part of him.

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So so God God can sort of just Chop himself up and and send a part off this way and a part off that way that is that is not

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Christian theology Nowhere does the Bible ever speak of dividing

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God up into pieces and parts John 1 1 says in the beginning was the word the words with God the word was gone.

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The word is distinguished from God here It's not a part that's sent off someplace

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This is a person It's that that Logos that is going to become flesh in verse 14 and then verse 18 is gonna specifically tell us we're talking about Father and son no one has seen

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God in a time the monogamy stay off the unique God who is in the bosom of the father That is in the closest personal relationship with the father.

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He has made him known not himself known Not himself known That's what the prologue of John is all about so Did the prologue says nothing about taking parts off and putting them in Jesus or anything like that It's it's not even close to what's actually being said

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And he sent him down to die for our sins All right And when Jesus died and he rose from the dead and he was ascending back into heaven

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He told the Apostles not to worry. He would send a comforter He would send a part of him to live inside of us, which that's not what you said

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John 14 John 16. He said I'm gonna send a part of me He says I and the father

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We will send the spirit who will be another comforter It doesn't say we're gonna chop another part off and send send that part on The spirit is identified as a person.

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The spirit is sent by the father and the son But if you believe the son is just a human being indwelt by God, how does

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God and a human being send God Who's the father but then becomes a spirit?

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I mean How does that work it doesn't work Holy Spirit, which is the

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Holy Ghost. There is no separate being they are all God. They are all one There's no separate being

01:00:05

We don't believe in a separate being There is only one being of God God's being can't be chopped up in three parts ten parts hundred parts any other parts

01:00:13

God's being is simple non -complex cannot be Chopped up into parts sliced off and do things like you're seemingly suggesting that that they did

01:00:24

But that's not the biblical teaching. All right, but he put a part of him his Holy Spirit inside of us

01:00:30

He put a part of him on this earth to walk this earth and to die for our sins. I'm not gonna argue

01:00:36

I'm gonna leave it at that we can go back and forth in the comments and I've got plenty of more scriptures that I will post for in the comment plenty of more scriptures, but You haven't given any that even begins to substantiate your position because a

01:00:52

You don't understand the position you're denying You've misrepresented it and the texts that you cited are either irrelevant because they're proving monotheism and we are monotheistic

01:01:03

Or you've misrepresented what they're actually saying doesn't say I and the Father we are one person or anything even close to that okay, so There you go.

01:01:14

It was a quick video quick response The question really will be

01:01:20

Marcus Are you willing to learn? Are you willing to actually find out what the doctrine it is and why it is

01:01:30

That Christians have believed it all the way back to the earliest records we have outside the

01:01:36

New Testament. Oh, yeah all the way back Go back to Ignatius Bishop of Antioch. Read what he read what he said.

01:01:43

I Know some liberals try to say he was a modalist. He wasn't he clearly distinguished between the

01:01:49

Father the Son and the Spirit and Yet at the same time He affirmed the deity of Christ just like me but not like you

01:02:01

So, are you willing to learn? Are you willing to do some study? Are you willing to go? Hey, you know folks, you know what?

01:02:07

I'm not a theologian But everyone's called to be one and so I spoke out of turn and I'm willing to I'm willing to learn

01:02:17

I'm willing to I'm willing to be corrected Are you willing to do that? That really is the question

01:02:23

Marcus that really is there's a lot of stuff. I wanted to get to today But I am

01:02:29

NOT overly surprised that I took up all the time plus a couple minutes, but that's how it goes So thanks for watching dividing line today next week.

01:02:36

I know I've got some quotes I've put up on Facebook that I want to get to And some apologetic methodology issues that we will be addressing and all sorts of other things

01:02:46

David gushy is back Saying that evangelicals need a divorce well,

01:02:52

I Happen to agree fundamentally was what he's saying. We do represent completely different religious perspectives

01:02:59

One of us does the gospel and one of us is abandoned that Anyway, we'll be talking about those things and more

01:03:06

I'll bet you something weird will happen over the weekend too that we may have to throw in there as well. Who knows?

01:03:12

Something might happen in election news. Who knows? You know, it could happen We'll find out we'll see you next week.