Dangerous Doctrines – Is Tony Miano in a Cult? - Part 2

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December 10, 2020

This will continue the discussion of Grace Fellowship Church with Pastor Mike Reid. Tony Miano is a member of this church and his website states that all donations to his ministry are to his church. We will hear from several people that attended this church.

Dangerous Doctrines – Is Tony Miano in a Cult? – Part 3 with Ken Cook

00:18: Yeah, in fact, let me go as far as to say this You know if you are a member and you're even allowed to listen to this program
00:27: And there certainly is reason to question whether or not that would even be allowed
00:32: But if if by God's providence if by his grace you're able to listen to this program, and you're in fear
00:39: And you're afraid to leave the group Please contact us and I will personally call the law enforcement in that area and Do whatever
00:50: I can to have them come and safely escort you off the property
00:55: We can help and we would love we would love to help you in that way and beyond that If it is a situation where you are afraid to leave and you are able to leave
01:07: We will do everything we can to help you settle into a good church home a
01:14: Bible believing Bible teaching Church home safe church home men of God who rightly discern the
01:21: Word of God And you know what it means to be a a true shepherd over a flock again
01:28: We're doing this program because we care about you. We're doing this program because we love you.
01:34: We're doing this program Because we want to do whatever we can to fulfill the second of the greatest commandment and that's to love our neighbor as ourself
01:43: So so please hear our our heart in that so we want to be very very careful how we address this tonight
01:50: We are hopeful that people with the church are listening or will hear this at another time
01:57: Our desire is not to malign them as individuals
02:03: We hope tonight to speak the truth in love All right, we are live we appreciate you guys coming in and watching this is again gonna be a very important episode
02:29: We know that last episode was very long actually the longest we've ever done
02:34: I am for the record blaming that on Anthony He butted in over an hour just to make me break his record just for the record
02:41: But I'm the host Andrew Rappaport there We're going to continue what we started last week in Addressing some dangerous doctrines and asking the question is
02:50: Tony Miano in a cult If you have not gone and listened to that whole episode
02:55: I encourage you to do that before we get in just some housekeeping things that we have for you
03:01: We want to invite you to join us With Justin Peters ministries in Israel.
03:07: You can go to Israel tour 2021 to get all the details We are opening that up because that is we've had some cancellations because of kovat and all that we had to move the date
03:19: So it's now going to be the last week of October first week in November All the details are there at Israel tour 2021 calm second thing to let you know as we get close to the end of the year and people are
03:31: Thinking about end of year donations If you care to help us out at striving for eternity
03:37: If you'd like to support us, you can go to striving for eternity org slash donate we have with kovat
03:43: We have lost a number of donors we have had some that have retired and stopped giving some that That no longer can give because of job loss and whatnot and we're still trying to continue with everything that we're doing
03:57: We are still we had our trip to India and Guatemala Cancelled we had
04:02: Japan didn't happen. We're looking to do those in 2021 Now remember folks when we go to India and Guatemala we're going there in Guatemala.
04:13: We're going to help out with some churches there in in The in India, we actually have 75 churches that we're looking to work with there in Guatemala Actually, we're looking to work with pastors to train up folks.
04:27: The both those trips is going to be with Justin Peters and myself Japan is when we're trying to bring a team to Japan for the
04:34: Olympics We want to get a team of people to evangelize at the Olympics. You have the whole world come in for that It's a great opportunity
04:42: But here's the reality That the churches in India the churches in Guatemala the churches in Japan We're going to help none of them are paying for us to go if we go we go because people are supporting us
04:54: Right now we're we're kind of under our monthly needs So we need monthly donors if we could but if you want to help us just for some of those
05:03: Some of those trips that is a big help. So let's get into what we talked about last week
05:10: What we're continuing to talk about this week last week what we did was we had
05:17: Basically played from a three -hour Show where I was on and one of the other people you'll hear tonight was on We both were with Tony Miano on a show that he did on a cult called the
05:30: Church of Wells The the way that that was structured as we had two people
05:38: Myself and and another guest that you're gonna hear who were the experts on the area of cults and then we had people who knew the people that were involved in this in this
05:48: Church of Wells and Giving firsthand knowledge. Well, we're gonna have even better this time
05:55: We're gonna have the same two experts on but now we're gonna have people that actually have firsthand knowledge because they don't they're not
06:01: People who know of people in the church, they're actually people from the church from GFC or Grace Fellowship Church in Iowa we've been talking about this church a couple times with pastor
06:15: Mike Reed if and what I want to do is encourage you to go to strivingforeternity .org
06:21: and You can look at the articles just type in dangerous doctrines and you'll get the article written by Kevin Yance now that article will link all of the information that you have that that you'd want to do the research and With that what
06:39: I want to do is reiterate some things now First off I'll say I'm very touched by the many people who have reached out
06:48: To me this past week It's it's been good and bad in some ways
06:57: The I say good and bad because you know There's been some counseling of people who've been who came out of this church and have really been struggling still now there's others who are glad that they
07:10: They are aware of this now had one person who called to to actually ask my forgiveness
07:16: Because when Anthony started researching this I warned him About some of this stuff and and he just didn't want to believe it and and when he listened to Tony in his own words
07:26: Speaking about the Church of Wells and then knowing that Tony's in a church That has some of these same doctrines or practices.
07:35: He realized he was wrong and asked my forgiveness Now when I say about the research, you know,
07:42: Anthony himself has put in I think about a hundred hours I would say of research of talking to Dozens and dozens of people who've come out of this church and You see he's got first -hand
07:56: Testimony people who don't talk to one another So, you know, this is the thing you see is that the stories are not going to be manufactured
08:04: I I talked about this on one of the previous ones episodes we did where it was a
08:09: Q &A and I went through the The email exchanges that I had with Mike Reed you see some tactics there that are concerning and What I want to mention is that the reason we're doing this show is the same reason we did the show with the
08:26: Church of Wells we want people to to be able to look and see You know if this is something that we need to call a cult
08:39: Is this actually at that level now when we did the intro you heard Tony With things he said on his show about the
08:47: Church of Wells. Those are true for us and We're we are doing this out of an act of love.
08:53: I know that some are not seeing that I know one person who was in touch with him this week.
08:59: He soon as he heard the show Listened to everything. He contacted Tony Miano. Tony told him
09:05: I was slandering him and that's what the person told me. I said really Did I slander him by playing his own words?
09:14: Well, like how is that slander then Tony went on to say no this is from years ago Well, if it was from six years ago
09:20: I said well then you just need to ask him to do two things one be very specific in what is the slander and two
09:28: He needs to be able to to because if the two is that he needs to to Not just be specific in the slander
09:37: But he needs to answer why he's never Tried to reconcile with me if this is true if it's from six years ago
09:46: I've done that I've said this on this program several times I flew across the country attended Shepherd's Conference Just so we could see each other face to face so that I could try to reconcile with Tony With some things that were happened and he refused it in fact we did meet at Shepherds Conference and we've said on this program previous programs here that one of the witnesses he brought in was a
10:08: Pastor on his accountability board Chuck O 'Neill. I brought dr. Silvestro Both witnesses agree that Tony is unrepentant in the sin against me now if he if he says
10:19: I've sinned against him by slandering him he's never brought that to my attention and That would that would be a sin on his part to then say it to anybody else because he's violating
10:29: Matthew 18 and not coming to me first Okay, so that's one thing
10:34: And that's something you always notice, but he never gave a specific In fact when the person pressed for specifics, he said he's done with this conversation.
10:41: He's not going to talk about it anymore The reality is with that is that Now what is he doing?
10:50: Well, if his claim that I'm slandering him is untrue, then he is slandering me that is not good He's actually the one doing the slander then
10:57: So since since I've heard through the rumor mill that Tony says I've slandered him Tony you need
11:04: To come to me with the specifics of what I've said that is slanderous
11:11: Okay, that is something that you would need to do, but I have questions that we have
11:17: For Mike Reed, I'm gonna read these again, and I want you to see that these questions
11:23: These are in the article that Kevin Yance put together the 12 questions that I've asked and and these are
11:29: Simple questions or should be many of them are yes or no questions but these questions are designed to really get to the bottom of what it is that They teach here at this church if he doesn't believe these things then fine
11:47: Let's let's discuss him, but he's refusing to dialogue on him. That's concerning that I think speaks volumes that Mike Reed will not answer these questions.
11:55: So here are the 12 questions I'll read them as they are at striving for turning org On the in the article the the dangerous doctrines of grace fellowship
12:04: Church one Do you meet alone on a regular basis? Do you meet alone with women on a regular basis to do you ask for details of spousal intimacy three?
12:16: Have you ever said? To to not trust the elders is to not trust
12:22: God For have you ever said whatever the elders would counsel?
12:29: Whatever the the elders would counsel you for your life is perfect Five have you ever said that GFC is the only true church in the
12:39: Quad Cities six? Have you do you believe the elders have nearly unlimited authority in the lives of their congregants?
12:49: seven Have you said if someone owns a gun is in the military or police?
12:56: They have pre meditated murder in their hearts eight
13:02: Do you share details about counseling sessions with other members nine? Did you ever imply that men and women should be able to kiss someone else on the lips?
13:14: That is not his or her own spouse ten Have you ever shared details of your own sexual intimacy with others with other people in your counseling sessions?
13:25: with members of the opposite sex Eleven do you believe you are infallible against sexual immorality and twelve?
13:34: by name what specific pastors theologians and or teachers have Condoned the practice of meeting with women alone in counseling sessions
13:43: The reason we ask these twelve is because these are the twelve that you've heard through the hours and hours of programs here that we have been bringing up over and over again and so what
13:58: I want to do is before we bring before we bring Kevin in I'm gonna bring
14:06: Justin in Hey, brother How you doing? Oh doing great. I have
14:11: I have a question for Tony and and for Andrew the definition of slander is
14:18: Is a criminal act making false spoken statements and damaging to a person's reputation and or you could say it's a
14:27: Making a false and damaging statement about someone. So my question is let me I'll give you my definition of it.
14:33: Go ahead. So slander is to This is the difference between slander and gossip gossip is idle talk for the purpose of damaging one's reputation
14:45: Your slander is false Information for the purpose of damaging one's reputation.
14:51: So that's the difference I see with them. So here's my question And I speak on behalf of Andrew when
14:58: Have Andrew or myself or Anthony or anyone in here? slandered or made any slanderous statements towards Tony Miano and If that's not the case, then this is what's by definition a straw man
15:11: This is trying to build up something so that you don't have to answer the questions so that you don't have to do the reconciliation and I want to strongly suggest that instead of trying to make the straw man and Make the arguments that oh, well,
15:24: I don't I haven't done anything wrong Andrew is obviously the one that's wrong because he's slandering me quote -unquote
15:32: Rather than doing that search your heart and ask yourself those ten questions those twelve questions
15:37: That have been popped up every time that we've been on here Do they apply to your pastor the one that you're allowing to lead your family and what would be the purpose of Andrew?
15:48: And all the other gentlemen and ladies that have gotten on here what's their purpose is it try to hurt you or try to promote the body of Christ to heal the body of Christ and proclaim the truth and That's all
16:02: I wanted to point out because I'm gonna defend Andrew If he was wrong,
16:08: I would say hey, this is wrong But he has not slandered anyone and I'm not gonna just sit by by in the back and not say something about it
16:16: Well, I appreciate that thank you You know and because that is the thing is is that we're you know
16:22: We are trying as as you heard in the clips last week. We're not gonna play all four and a half hours of them
16:29: We're trying to do this rightly not Maligning people. All right.
16:35: So Kevin I want to bring in I want to play a clip from last week Now last week was long
16:41: Let me give a summary of what people heard last week and I want to replay the bombshell Of what
16:46: I called the bombshell What you heard last week if you if you didn't listen all the way to the end The last five minutes was the key that was the most important part.
16:55: That's why I want to play it first What you end up seeing is we played Tony in his own words over and over again
17:03: For the purpose that people would see that the Tony that many people think of the Tony from yesteryear is not the
17:09: Tony from today The Tony from today is is in a church that he was calling out the same practices six years ago
17:18: In fact, he was calling out the practices one year before he went to that church And I wanted you all to be able to hear in his own words
17:26: So there was no question of you know Is Andrew making something up you heard
17:32: Tony in his own words you heard Kevin confirming? Yes, these things happen You're gonna hear others confirming this today
17:40: But at the end I want to play what the last five minutes
17:45: Kevin of what our Conversation was for folks and and then just reiterate this before we get started.
17:51: So let's play this We've done this whole thing all of this talk of Churchill Wells For one thing that I want to ask
17:59: Kevin and I told you there is a bombshell This is the bombshell when
18:04: Kevin you and I talked about this When when you and I discussed this thing and I told you
18:11: I said this sounds so much like the cult of Wells and I Suggested doing a show like this.
18:17: You told me about a conversation now Let me first say I gave some dates Tony Matt slick myself
18:24: We were working to do stuff with the Church of Wells We're actively trying to call this out all of a sudden
18:32: Tony dropped from this Matt slick and I Actually had conversations going what's going on?
18:38: Tony doesn't want to be involved. He doesn't want to talk about it anymore Nothing Matt and I were planning to go down to Wells, Texas by ourselves
18:46: Originally was gonna be a three of us. We were still talking the two of us because Tony just dropped off We never understood why until I had a conversation with you about doing this episode
18:58: Can you please explain to the audience the conversation? You were an eyewitness to Yeah, so I would meet with Mike on a semi regular basis once a week
19:11: What once every other week we would have lunch or something to that extent I suppose
19:16: I was you know being considered for eldership in the church at some point in time and and I'm great grateful to the
19:23: Lord for saving me from that But when Tony moved to Iowa and one particular occasion
19:29: I had lunch with him Mike and I believe Tyler was there as well Who's one of the other elders
19:35: Tyler Volkama and we were sitting at the Hy -Vee They have a it's a grocery store that has a restaurant.
19:40: We were sitting in there and The Church of Wells came up Tony was still pretty hot on the on the trail at that point in time and Mike said to Tony You know
19:54: I think we have to be really careful because Grace Fellowship could easily be construed as being the same as the
20:00: Church of Wells and I you know, I'm not gonna say this exactly
20:06: But there was something to the effect like, you know It's something maybe that you ought to start thinking about Tony or you should consider oftentimes when it would when
20:15: Mike would say you should consider that meant that we're gonna have more discussions about this or It's going to be something that's going to be an ongoing thing
20:24: So, although I never heard Mike say to Tony you need to stop pursuing
20:29: Wells I never heard a thing about Wells out of Tony's mouth after that day and so I would believe that Mike told
20:37: Tony that he needs to stop going after Wells because Grace Fellowship could draw the attention of other people or who knows what he said but I guarantee as Mike mentioned, you know,
20:50: Mike brought it up in that meeting and At that point in time Tony never pursued
20:55: Wells anymore And that's that would be why we Matt and I realized it was cut off the danger of that The thing that blows me away at the bombshell of that is that Mike Reed is fully
21:07: Aware that he and his church has cultic practices Yeah, and Tony should have had alarm bells going off saying wait what
21:19: He should have realized right then and there he is in a church that is the same thing that he spent all this time
21:27: Criticizing and saying to put an end to that is what's scary That is the bombshell because that tells us folks
21:35: Mike Reed is fully aware He is cultic and Tony would be Equally as aware that this whole thing you heard
21:44: Tony in his own words Over and over and over again teaching them against the very practices.
21:50: He now sits under please pray for Tony Miano And he not only sits under them.
21:55: He supports them fully. He's a cheerleader for them He you know, his ministry is now under the full control of it
22:03: You know, it's gonna it's hard to walk back off the ledge that he's on right now So the final question we end the show with this dangerous doctrines is
22:11: Tony Miano in a cult you decide And that's we're gonna be looking at more today I think that you know for folks who do support
22:19: Tony they have to realize the church we're talking about This is where your money is going. Tony says that on the website the people who endorse
22:27: Tony This is what you're endorsing now Kevin Let me just read some comments that we had in here earlier
22:34: Chris Brown has that because I mean the folks watching live can see this but folks who are on the podcast
22:39: Don't get to see all the comments is why I should watch live Chris Brown says I thought Andrew and Kevin did a great job
22:45: I appreciate your tone and attitude no compromise on truth slash sin and love
22:51: Tony Miano through it all Humble clay who said Andrew Anthony and everyone had been extremely gracious over this entire ordeal and So that is you know, we appreciate that because we're we're you know
23:05: I think that when Tony did that show with Churchill else he was showing them a great amount of grace as well
23:11: I think all of us did I want to bring in I was actually trying to look for The clip that I had out of the hundred and fifty clips that we had from from last week
23:21: I was trying to find Tony's introduction of our Special guest here, but I can't do that.
23:28: I can't find it only the five -minute version that introduced everyone So I'll just I'll have to introduce the the lovable Sasquatch And if you ever get to meet
23:39: Ken cook, you know why we call him the Sasquatch if there is a Bigfoot He's about that size.
23:44: So Ken is a very big guy And he works with karma
23:50: Krishna projects research ministry did back then as the marketing arm And I think I loved how
23:56: Tony introduced you back Then is your job was trying to keep Matt slick in line, which no one can can contain him
24:03: They just try sound like that they but the reality is that When we look at at your background you you not only have a friendship with Tony But you have
24:20: Seen this in many churches many cults Okay in in your years of study with karma this one's a little personal and so so Let's face it to say
24:35: When I first called you to say I wanted to try to redo what we did with the the episode with Churchard Wells And I wanted to have you on as as the expert that you were back then
24:48: I Had less I have less of Knowledge, I guess going into this until Anthony did the shows and started giving me all this research
24:59: You have gone in the past couple weeks, right you have done your own study and You were pushing very hard against me would that be fair that you were you were very much against Doing this and you wanted to get some questions answered
25:17: And Kevin, you know, you brought Kevin and Anthony I on and and Kevin you I think you'd agree He was asking some hard questions.
25:24: He was apologizing beforehand Like saying I'm not being a jerk, but I want answers
25:32: So real quick Ken for folks Can you just bring people up to speed with it where you're at?
25:38: With some of what you've been researching and I know that you've been trying to have some exchanges
25:44: I don't know if you want to share any of that but Just where where you at with this and from your study
25:50: And then you obviously you and I want to hear from witnesses and get more. Yeah, so I Wasn't just Tony's friend.
25:59: I'm not just Tony's friend I also helped him set up his ministry the the logo the website the headers all of it
26:08: It's still there today We built When he left living waters,
26:13: I I helped connect him with Matt over at Carmen and we did a lot of ministry together.
26:19: He I Used to talk to the man hours every single day he was more than a friend and I Would say when
26:33: Chuck first came to me with this stuff. I actually looked the email was 2016 Chuck probably sent a 20 ,000 word email to me and I reread it today and And I've reread it a few times since He sent it this past couple of weeks
26:54: And and in talking to Kevin and talking to eyewitnesses that What Chuck was worried about in 2016 was spot -on
27:06: The witnesses I think that we're going to talk to you today are going to show that and we will
27:15: Hear that I think firsthand what what what I think I've seen in my research is
27:22: When I look at a cult I look at a few different things I look at their social practices
27:27: Right things like submission to authority isolation their persecution complexes their indoctrination practices
27:37: Group think etc. Right? We want to look at all of these practices We also want to look at their theology and we want to say, you know
27:44: What's going on theologically with them and and in in talking? And we also
27:51: I think the other big thing and this is the hardest thing right, especially with eyewitnesses
27:57: Is we want to make sure that the eyewitnesses aren't out to grind an axe Right. We want to and Kevin will attest to this as Andrew kind of just said
28:05: I did not go into this believing What was being said?
28:12: Despite my my friendship and relationship with Andrew and Anthony It is it is unfathomable for me to think that Tony is where He is right now
28:26: It is unfathomable to think that the things that you will hear this evening are true and that is is kind of what's led me to to where we are right now brothers is we
28:40: We have to go where the evidence leads us. We have to honor Christ and we have to Most importantly love our brother even if they're wrong
28:51: Right and I'll say this Andrew and I don't agree on all of our points here, right? There's there's disagreement even between us.
28:58: This is not a hey, we've we've talked it all through and we're we're a hundred percent together
29:03: I think we see some things a little bit differently and and and we want to be open with that and honest with that and Say look, you know
29:12: Let's it. Let's let's show you what we've seen. Let's talk through the issues and I'll also say this
29:18: I I've Repeatedly tried to have discussions with Tony. I Have proof on this very phone that I've repeatedly tried to have discussions with Tony a man that that I literally would spend hours upon hours upon hours on the phone with Talking enjoying life a man that I would go shooting with a man that I ministered with said that he had to pray and Think about whether he could even take my phone call and ultimately did not take my phone call that that in and of itself
30:02: I Think speaks volumes Not because there's there's a must that we have to talk to each other at all times
30:12: But as as as friends as brothers if I'm coming to you and saying look we got to talk I need to have a serious chat with you and you can't even be bothered to answer the phone and I think we're gonna learn that maybe it's because there is some control from Grace Fellowship Church occurring in your life and That's a problem
30:35: So let's do this real quick So you want to get to hearing from you good people and and you're right you and I do have some differences actually
30:42: You and I disagree on a bunch of things at times and that's actually what helps us So much in because we we can disagree with one another we can discuss those disagreements and it doesn't change our relationship
30:55: In fact, I think it strengthens it. Let's do this. I Have the shorter list so I'll go first You you have the list from karm.
31:06: We want to give a definition. What is a cult? Okay, so When we think about what a cult is in my book, what do we what do they believe?
31:16: I have five points that define a cult Scripture twisting scripture twisting is going to be where you have
31:25: People taking scripture out of context you have people who are going to What I call lack integrity
31:34: With language in other words, they don't they're not clear. They purposely are not clear so that They can't be nailed down Okay, it's even worse when that when they're gonna twist the scriptures to try to make our the scriptures say son.
31:49: It doesn't Another a second one is Authoritarianism you have either a person or an organization that sets them up sells up as the authority in other people's lives ultimately
32:04: They're an authority in the area of interpreting scripture
32:12: Okay, and so with that the that ends up coming from the one the other thing that you end up seeing is that that often will lead to A Exclusivity to the truth
32:34: All right The The thing that you end up seeing is that once they think that they're the only ones that can interpret the scriptures that is going to give them the the exclusiveness to the to the
32:48: To the truth and then what ends up happening is isolationism.
32:54: They separate themselves from others But the ultimate thing that you end up seeing is because of all the control you have harm and That is an issue is the harm.
33:05: So Ken, can you go through your or karmas definition It would probably help if you unmute yourself first probably would there there are a number of social aspects of cult
33:20: We've got a list. That's a little bit longer. There's 14 things. So I'm gonna try to quickly go through these and I think that that one of the things that you might notice in this is
33:30: This is not specific to just Christian cults because there are atheistic cults There are Buddhist cults
33:36: Hindu cults, etc. And so we try to have a broader Definition that might encompass more things
33:43: So that may be a core reason for some definition no differences here First is there's the issue of submission this would be complete almost unquestioned trust in leadership leaders are often prophets apostles or Somehow have a unique connection with God And most often this person exerts a psychological control
34:11: Where others are required to trust them for their spiritual welfare There would also be an issue of Within submission that more submission gets you more rewards within the group that means roles and responsibilities
34:28: That means praises Etc. And so that's one of the things that we want to talk about tonight
34:36: Exclusivity they often say that they are the only true religious system or that they are one of the few true religious systems
34:44: Mormonism for example right now I don't think would claim to be the only true religious system simply because Mormonism has gone postmodern doesn't even necessarily believe in truth anymore.
34:53: Just as a brief example There's often a persecution complex. We saw this
34:59: Incredibly clearly with with the Church of Wells Colton Wells has been referred to Where any any time you speak out against them you're persecuting them
35:09: Politely I Hadn't I don't know that I'd heard prior to just a few minutes ago Andrew you saying this this, you know
35:15: Tony's saying you're being slandered He's being slandered simply because you played his words Politely, that's a persecution complex.
35:22: Well, I think he did update that he was saying it was from back years ago. So, okay It's at least what he said to the person so fair enough this issue of control that would be
35:36: They want to within a cult. What you see is control of members actions and thinking primarily through repeated indoctrinations especially through things like threats of loss of salvation loss of status within the group loss of a place to live even or Even even, you know more extreme things curses from God, etc you if you look at a number of the especially
36:02: African cultic groups that are That are big growing in popularity the the charlatan, you know faith healer types
36:10: This is a huge thing that they do is if you if you speak against me God will curse you because you may not touch touch
36:18: God's anointed huge thing Isolation this is the thing
36:23: I was talking about earlier minimizing of contact with church members or group members with those outside of the particular group what this allows you to do is it allows you to control their thinking a way that you get people into your group is is this tactic called love bombing and love bombing essentially is this idea that As a cultic group what you'll do is you will show massive amounts of care to a person to basically
36:55: Facilitate Emotional dependence upon the group. These are the people who love me.
37:00: They love me like no one else has ever loved me They care for me like no one else has ever cared for me Often within cults.
37:06: There's a claim of special knowledge Right, this could be instructions You know
37:12: Joseph Smith, for example said that all the other religions were wrong and God told him so right, this could be things like visions dreams new interpretations of sacred scriptures including
37:25: The Bible the Quran what have you or you create your own just like the Quran Indoctrination this is the repeated teaching of Things now
37:38: I I don't want to go too harsh on this But but I'll just say one of the things that I've heard a lot of is these
37:44: Q &A sessions that would occur at GFC And in these these Q &A sessions
37:50: Mike would basically preach sermon. He'd give you an idea and then What I heard anyway was people
37:57: Saying oh, I've been so sinful in this area standing up in and and walking through Exactly how
38:06: What he's saying is true for them, right? this is very similar to what we see in Mormonism with a testimony
38:12: Sunday where where the group gets together on a particular Sunday and Everyone just bears their testimony on how they know the church is true
38:24: Salvation this this is And the idea that without the group the judgment of God Is going to come upon you and you maintain your safety from God through submission to the group its authority or its special knowledge
38:43: Okay, for example, if you give up your temple recommends as a Mormon You're put into what's called outer darkness a place that you cannot be redeemed from There's a number ten would be this issue of groupthink the groups coherence within cultic structure is maintained
39:05: By by kind of this strict observance to policies or Processes or ideas that are handed down and so what will happen is and I've heard a number of people say this
39:18: Within the group you would you would Within GFC you would see this thing where it's like You have women keeping other women in line
39:27: You have men confessing that it's it felt sinful or felt wrong To spend time with each other without Examining each other right this this idea of there's a cultic control there of trying to Make sure that everyone is is kind of Thinking in the same way
39:46: Right and there are truly rewards and Punishments for those who who do not or do accept the teachings
39:57: I I'm gonna skip cognitive dissonance for just a minute because I want to come back to it number 12 is shunning the only way you can leave the group is death or Expulsion this is an explicit teaching of GFC.
40:14: It is a often repeated teaching of GFC Right you you can't come into the church on your own, and you can't go out of the church on your own
40:22: Right the only way that you can that this can happen is is through the church and If you leave the church, we are going to remove all of the social benefits so as to work to bring you back
40:37: Number 13 would be this issue of gender roles. There is often within cultic groups strict control of gender roles and definitions and This is something that often leads to sexual exploitation
40:53: We're going to get into this a little bit more one of the biggest concerns that I have within within cultic groups in general or is the area of Exploitation and this is emotional.
41:06: This is often financial This is very often sexual and this is a huge area of concern and so this this piece
41:17: Which I believe we have very clear evidence on And we will no doubt hear testimony on this tonight about Pastor Reed, Mike Reed Having women in the congregation detail sexual activity and him prescribe
41:36: Sexual activity. This is a form of sexual exploitation There is no other way to look at it.
41:43: It is purely Simply sexual exploitation. We often think sexual exploitation is is
41:51: Closely related to intercourse and while that is sometimes true is not always true
41:57: There are many forms of sexual exploitation and this is certainly one of them Going back to this issue of cognitive dissonance.
42:05: There is a push to avoid critical thinking because there are
42:12: Contradictions that the group needs to hold intention And those inconsistencies are required for the group to hold together
42:22: And I'll be honest. This is an area. I I have real concern as to whether GFC has
42:31: Has this tendency I at least as of right now have no true Evidence that I could point to and I want to be clear on that.
42:41: Okay, so The fight the final piece here is appearance standards This is this is a big one and this this ties a number of things
42:50: Isolation, gender roles, etc together there is often within cultic groups a
42:58: Appearance requirement Right. So for example women may have to wear skirts Right, and it's it's anything from frowned upon to sinful to not wear a skirt
43:10: Right men may have to wear, you know white shirts and only white shirts.
43:15: They may have to Not have a beard they may have to have a beard right etc
43:20: So the appearance standards is another aspect of this control Within a cultic group.
43:26: And so these are the the things when I'm looking at a cult These are the questions that I'm asking is how do they relate to this?
43:33: The only other thing that I would add to this is within a Christian context. We sometimes are wanting to ask
43:40: Are they Orthodox or not? right because we could point to a number of solid
43:49: Christian movements that maybe check some of these boxes, but they're not a cult and largely, they're not a cult because They don't either check enough of them.
44:00: They don't have especially enough control or You know, they have rigidity in one of these pieces which makes them more of a fundamentalist
44:10: But not necessarily a cult Yeah, we talked about that difference of cult and cultic.
44:16: So Kevin we're gonna bring some people on and I'm gonna let you kind of lead with who we should bring in I know with some people got to get up earlier than others leave earlier
44:25: But what we want to do now for you folks that are watching and listening both
44:32: Ken and I gave you a definition of a cult We want to now hear eyewitness testimony and and see is this is this matching now?
44:41: I'm gonna just say that if if there's anyone in the backstage that Isn't planning on coming on screen if you want to just drop and watch on YouTube We do have some people that were trying to come in earlier
44:53: I know John dropped if others there if so, if there's anyone that wants to come in my prayer is
45:00: That Tony Miano's watching and you would come in defend yourself Mike Reed come in. Please.
45:05: We have 12 questions You know what? They are. You know what you get asked, you know If Tony wants to come on and explain publicly where I've slandered
45:15: I'm fine Be specific and let's deal with the details But if they want to come in they'd be welcomed by the way just so folks know they have been invited on Anthony invites them on regularly and they refuse.
45:27: So Kevin who do we want to bring in first right now? Yeah, thanks Ken. That was great.
45:34: I really appreciate Karm's Definition and of course Andrews definitions, which we heard exclusively last week
45:42: I think it's important to get these people's voices out there Now there's a number of people that are backstage that are gonna come out
45:50: I think the first two let's bring out I want to bring out Chris Brown and Steve Johnson neither were members of the church
45:58: But they both spent some time there and had really awkward and wacky and abusive experiences so You know, maybe guys you just maybe give some of your testimony here as to how you came to GFC what happened that caused you concerns and You know, where do you stand today on the topic or anything else that Ken or Andrew may want to ask you guys?
46:22: If if you see the practices that were that Ken or I brought up if you can explain those as well
46:33: So Chris, why don't you go first? okay, so As far as repeated indoctrination,
46:40: I think that was one point that Ken brought up You know, I heard Mike, you know drill the same beat the same drum repeatedly on You know willful sin or premeditated sin if you have
46:53: Premeditated sin or willful sin, you know, you're you're not a Christian you'd even go so far to say that No scriptures to support that would be
47:03: Hebrews 10 26, you know, if we go on sinning willfully willfully There no longer remains a sacrifice for sins
47:10: I think I'm quoting that pretty closely and you know, he'd scripture twisting would be a big thing quite often
47:18: That's definitely one I'd hear I would hear quite a bit from Mike because he knew my testimony on on my premented
47:25: Premeditated willful sin. So that's definitely something I would hear quite a bit Okay Steven Well, look,
47:37: I I've known Mike Reed for a long time. We went to the same church with him 20 years ago and I was my wife and I were there when he on 9 -eleven when he professed faith and And we left to go to Colorado right after that I mean like a year after that and we came back like five years ago and so we were kind of like wow, you know,
48:03: I guess Mike Reed's got a church over there, but We didn't really Go there.
48:09: We were kind of church shopping And I can kind of tell you of our experience there.
48:17: I mean we didn't only went a couple times, but it was really crazy I Got a call
48:24: What made it crazy Steven? From Robert Gray and he says
48:31: I've got this these people from this church in Davenport, Iowa that are up here in Portland At a conference and they're on the streets
48:38: They do evangelism and all that you ought to go check this place out and I knew kind of knew Mike so we kept my wife and I we decided to go check it out and You know, we got in there and my wife came over to me and said
48:56: What might try to kiss me on the lips? you know, I had turned I turned my mouth and he got me on the cheek and you know,
49:03: I just like oh You know, you're just like, okay, whatever
49:09: I mean, it's like that's really weird, you know and then we
49:18: You know, we were looking at these testimonies people would get up and and this one guy got up They would stand up in front of the whole congregation and they would tell all these stories about This guy
49:27: I remember got up and was going on and on about all these lustful thoughts. He had and he was had his family there
49:33: All these thoughtful thoughts he had for these women over the all week and he was really struggling with it and then the next week there was some woman that got up and Confessed that she's been thinking about Mike Reed all week and you know
49:48: Everyone's there and she was having all these weird thoughts, you know sexual thoughts and my wife was like You know, she was out of there and I'm trying to give
49:58: Mike the benefit of the doubt You know, I kind of knew him. I mean, I know his folks you know,
50:04: I hope that's for somebody but it's it's all weird and and so I try
50:09: I went to a Bible study on Saturday Just to can't you know try to I don't know just see what's going on and and afterwards
50:20: I Told Mike I said, you know what? I I might not be back for a couple weeks
50:26: I'm gonna go over to I'm gonna go candidate to be an open -air campaigners And he looked at me and he goes.
50:32: Well, you got to get that. Okay with me before you ever Agree to go on with them and I thought it was the same kind of thing like whatever, you know
50:41: I don't even know what he's talking about. I don't even you know, I only went to his church twice I don't you know,
50:46: I don't know this guy anything and So afterwards
50:53: I called up elder Nick elder Nick and I said, you know,
50:59: I'm thinking about maybe trying to Join with you guys try to support you at some level and maybe come to a
51:05: Bible study here and there and he and this Is the thing? This is the thing that you did it for me.
51:10: My wife was already out of there Thing there for me Nick says oh, no You can never
51:17: You come to this church you we have church on Sunday morning. We have church on Sunday night
51:23: We have Bible study on Saturday. We have a service on Wednesday and there was something else
51:28: Google's you will never ever have any excuse ever to miss a single one of those
51:36: And You know, I've talked to him on the phone. It's like dude, we moved back from Colorado so we could be around our family and We'll probably be spending some time with them.
51:46: We're gonna miss some stuff and he goes your biological family means nothing to you
51:52: Compared to your church family here and you will never ever miss
51:58: Anything here? I thought oh Okay, well that's that was that did it for me and we were we were out after that so that's how that that was really my
52:12: Church experience But I did continue some relationships with people at the church and they blew up in Such incredible ways and I don't you know,
52:24: I mean I could sit and tell you the stories Or else we can talk about it later I Guess I'll go ahead if you want me to you might just go ahead and tell you
52:39: Yeah, give some Give them and I want to I want to hear from Chris as well Because I know he has a time limit as well that he's got to be out of here.
52:48: So So yeah, give it give one or two stories and then then I want to hear from Chris what you know
52:54: What his experience was like? Oh, you don't mean it going. I Don't want to hog your time
53:01: Chris. Yeah. No, I know just Give give them, you know, if you have like one or two stories that do that and we'll go to Chris.
53:09: Oh Well, anyway, well, you know Robert Grace, you know, he told me about this guy in the church these people in the church and I kind of sort of kept up a
53:17: Relationship sort of with a couple of them and what I'm with Donnie And I would go back and forth with Donnie on text here and there and all this and that well
53:26: I don't know how long it was maybe a few months or whatever after that or you know, Robert Gray He stops with us stops and stays with us all the time and he stopped here in Quad Cities to stay with us for a week
53:37: And so I I would kept texting Donnie. It's like Robert Gray's here, dude, you know him.
53:43: You just saw him at a conference. He's a great guy You know, wouldn't you want to just pop in and you know
53:49: We can fellowship and whatever and this and that and he always had some excuse. No, no, no, and So the last day that Robert was there.
53:57: I I called Donnie up and I said time This is Robert last day, it's his birthday
54:03: And he's Leaving and you know if you don't want to come over that's fine. He goes. Okay. Well, I'll come over So he came over we hung out for a couple hours.
54:10: It was all good Took a picture put it up on Facebook The next day
54:16: I Get a call from Donnie and he is freaked out because he said you know what
54:22: I was told that I should never have Anything to do with you people ever ever and he goes
54:27: Mike found out he goes They're gonna take away my phone and they're gonna take me off Facebook And he says
54:34: I won't be able to talk to you anymore Whoa, whoa, whoa, wait, wait, wait, wait so your friend
54:40: Donnie was told by Mike that because he was hanging out with with You know
54:46: Robert Gray who in my opinion is the world's greatest open -air evangelist
54:54: Now, you know, what is the rationale that first off the fact that they think they have the authority to say they're gonna take away
55:00: Someone's phone or get or take away their social media. How old was Donnie?
55:06: well, I Don't know Donnie probably in his 20s. He's a good kid Okay, 20s like and these are not his parents.
55:15: Is that true? I mean any of them his parents they're saying he was very upset.
55:20: I and the thing is I Texted him back soon after that and said
55:27: Donnie, you know, we're starting to go to a church here in Bettendorf and You know, dude, if you come
55:34: I'll will be love on you and we'll you know It'll be great and I get this thing back from Mike He must have already had his phone and said who is this?
55:44: You're not ever ever talk to Donnie ever again and I mean and This was just how
55:55: I was kind of getting into this and finding out about this stuff and then Mike scheduled a meeting with me next week, and I mean
56:02: I It was A meeting I can tell you that man, you know one person
56:09: I spoke to this week had something similar in it with what you're saying And again,
56:14: I'll just mention anyone in the backstage if there's anyone there's someone trying to get in if there's anyone that doesn't isn't gonna
56:20: Be on on air if you guys wouldn't mind just watching on YouTube But I spoke to someone this week
56:26: That that told me that the issues with them started with Mike when they had the nerve
56:33: To go and talk to someone else outside of the church for counseling for something and This person was told you you don't you can't go outside the church.
56:45: You don't go outside your pastors to get advice on anything which Just it kind of supports with what you're saying
56:54: No Chris what? Andrew I'll butt in real quick.
56:59: But yeah, I can support a hundred percent what Steve just said I mean, I remember very well being on the phone.
57:05: I can remember where I'm sitting in my truck I'm talking on the phone because I think
57:11: Donnie called me and he was with Steve and with Robert and I remember Getting on the phone
57:18: Robert Gray, I talked with him for a short period of time and then this thing completely blew up You know
57:23: They just had a meltdown over anybody doing anything that might be construed as outside of the authority of the elders of grace fellowship this is very domineering very control oriented
57:38: Very authoritarian and so, you know, I think Steve can probably affirm this but on other occasions
57:44: I think they told Steve that nobody else can can do street evangelism in this town unless they're working through You know
57:51: Mike and GFC. So, you know, the control stuff is greatly there. Oh, yeah Can it look like you were wanted to say something?
58:00: I I mean, I mean Part of me says what more do we need to hear?
58:09: I mean this this is Tony this is the exact thing when you and I The only reason
58:17: Andrew that you Matt and Tony started working on the cult of wells is Because I brought the three y 'all together if you recall that Yes, I do.
58:26: Okay Tony this was the this what I just heard is the exact reason that you and I Started working on the cult of wells
58:37: Was the level of control that we just heard you and I not but five years ago said
58:43: What more do we need to hear this is clearly a problem this the
58:53: There was a young lady in Wells, Texas who they were isolating from her family
58:59: They were not allowing her to have her phone to call them If the family called the elders would answer actually the the family the family even
59:08: Bought an RV and was trying to go from home to home to see if they could even Spotter and they kept her in a shed and would move around at night.
59:20: I Think it's the same practice It's the same practice.
59:29: I Tony how can you step? How can you stomach this? How can you stomach this?
59:35: I can't stomach this well, you know I can
59:40: I I'm grateful for your bold stance in this because you know
59:45: Once you've come to recognize all of this stuff you've made a decision about what's going on based upon credible evidence based upon eyewitness testimonies based upon all of these hours of research that Anthony did and you know, there are still guys that are
01:00:02: Sitting on the fence. They won't make a decision. They know what's going on, but they won't make a decision
01:00:09: Because they know it'll cost their friendship with Tony as it appears. It has cost you and this is Tony's This is
01:00:15: Tony's Christian attitude toward those that he disagrees with or that disagree with him.
01:00:20: He cuts him off That's it and so guys like I've mentioned before Bobby John speed side ten
01:00:31: Bruggen Kate. These guys don't want to make a decision about this They'll they'll continue to be
01:00:37: Tony's friend and stick their head in the sand and ignore the gross abuses that are happening at grace
01:00:42: Fellowship Church because they don't want Tony to cut them off of their friendship and I and I'm I'm sorry for them
01:00:49: They're missing the truth. I hope more people do is the one person who called me this week doesn't and You know repent from trying to ignore it and realize you know what people warned me and we got to do something
01:01:01: Chris, let me let me ask you your experience down there with with Mike Reed And what you saw the things that that you saw that would fit into these definitions of a cult, yeah, well,
01:01:16: I'm if I could just speak towards my testimony that might help me get into it more but I I First heard about GFC through Tony Miano.
01:01:25: I respected Tony. I listened to his preaching videos on on the street I read his newsletters and I read about how his his experience at GFC and Seeing how it was just about an hour and a half away from me you know,
01:01:40: I was hoping that Tony would come back to Iowa and I might be able to join him again and That's when
01:01:45: Nick Rollin Responded to me on Twitter When I said something to Tony on Twitter and he said, you know, you can come join us anytime you want
01:01:54: And I thought you know, it's just a hop skip and a jump away. So I'll I'll go I'll go join him, right and Yeah, that was in December of 2015 and I just remember listening to the sermon there
01:02:07: Mike and You know, everyone was asking me, you know, what do you think about the sermon? what do you think about the sermon, you know, and is it anything like you ever heard it anywhere else and I just to me that initially that seemed kind of prideful or it and I wasn't exactly
01:02:24: Sure what to think of it, you know Having having seen Tony Miano say good things about it, you know
01:02:31: Immediately lended lended Mike and the rest of the GFC credibility in my eyes
01:02:37: So I wasn't ready to immediately write off any any red or yellow flags that I saw
01:02:45: So I kept on I kept on visiting them and and checking them out and I think it was a few weeks later actually went to Mike Reed's house.
01:02:54: He invited me over to stay at his house Saturday night and then go to Sunday morning service the next day, but I stayed with Mike Reed And his family and when
01:03:07: I came over the first thing they were watching was videos of his wife in gymnastics
01:03:15: I was just like, okay. Yeah, that's not really what I came here to see or watch
01:03:21: And I remember Mike making a comment about how you know How good his wife looked back in that day in those in in there her gymnastics outfit and I was like, okay
01:03:30: That's that's great. Not really what I came here to watch or talk about And but eventually we got to sit down at his dining room table just Mike and Mike and I and He wanted to hear my testimony and you know,
01:03:44: I have no problem in sharing that so I shared my testimony with them talked about my addiction to pornography and And once I once I brought that up he wanted to dig into that more he wanted to dig more into my sexual sin and This isn't really something
01:04:01: I'm not gonna go too deep into but just to give a brief synopsis of it you know, he just wanted to know about my sexual sin and He justified it by you know, trying to say, you know,
01:04:13: I want to know more about it so that I can help you right and You know,
01:04:18: I kind of thought that sounds okay at in the moment and hindsight definitely not okay
01:04:26: But yeah He just kept on kept on prodding into that and then he went to tell me his testimony and he went to talk talk about his affairs that he his his adulterous life he had before his supposed conversion to Christianity And then he almost seemed to brag about how he had done the real thing over just just looking at pornography or watching watching the act he actually had done the act and it almost seemed like he was bragging about it to me and Yeah, he he continued to To prod into my my my sexual sin and things like that and and then so the next next morning we went out to to to breakfast and I wish
01:05:22: I could remember exactly what it was, but There's something that I that I said and then he just looked back at me with a very a very stern look
01:05:31: I wrote it down in my testimony Yeah, I mentioned something about the sin of my life regarding our conversation the previous night and it might gave me a very stern
01:05:48: Look as if he was disgusted By me disgusted by what I said and we were there with another another
01:05:55: Person there and Mike began to like question me more about my my sex life and he preached to me about willful sin
01:06:02: You know that's when he first brought up like Hebrews 10 26 and you know how if we go on sitting willfully there no longer means a sacrifice for sins and He preset, you know, the way he taught it was that if I had willful sin,
01:06:16: I wasn't a Christian All right, I never was a Christian in his eyes and Definitely one way he would like to twist that scripture you bring that up a lot with me and You know,
01:06:30: I eventually began to not like Mike I Just kind of thought the things that are going on GFC were weird and I kind of ignored them the next year in 2016
01:06:42: But I did make friends with Donnie Who Steve was talking about and Donnie and I would text back and forth, you know,
01:06:51: I I enjoyed his company There definitely were some strange things, you know,
01:06:57: Donnie would repeat, you know The same type of things that Mike would say you'd bring up some of the same types of questions that Mike would
01:07:03: I'm sure he and he and Mike would talk back and forth I know he and Mike were we're pretty close
01:07:09: Mike would definitely talk highly about Donnie So it kind of seemed like Mike was using
01:07:15: Donnie to To talk with me, you know seeing that we were about the same age and we were more peers
01:07:23: And so I you know, I eventually As I said, I got away from GFC and then Donnie would draw me back and then they invited somebody else in To draw me in to you know
01:07:35: This this person who came from overseas would talk highly about GFC and say I'd I'd come thousands of miles to come here
01:07:41: GFC You know, this is this is a great church. You know, this is like the best church I've ever been to and you know
01:07:47: That's definitely something Mike Mike and the rest of the people at GFC would talk about was how great their church was You know, this is the best church in the area
01:07:54: I specifically remembered Nick Rollin talking about how there there are no good churches in the town that I was in the
01:08:01: Cedar Rapids And I was like, how do you how do you know that and he's like, well, I've looked at their websites, you know
01:08:07: I Chris I don't I don't see any good churches where you're where you're at And I was just like I don't
01:08:14: I don't know how he can know that really, you know, I Question that Had to be at his church
01:08:25: Yeah, no, I definitely yeah, I would agree with you. I think that's definitely where they were trying to lead me So yeah, so continue.
01:08:35: I just I just want to get clarification on that. Yeah. No, I would definitely think that's where they were trying to To lead me to think to lead me to go and I was definitely
01:08:44: I was definitely going that way You know, my Mike would bring up Votie Bachum John MacArthur Paul Washer, you know the rest of the members
01:08:52: They would talk about these these solid teachers as Chuck O 'Neill had said previously You know Mike is stealing credibility away from those away from those guys to make himself look good
01:09:03: And that's so when I would see these red flags, you know, just see these weird things that would take the note
01:09:09: I was just you know, I think back to you know, they like they like Votie Bachum. They like John McCarthy like Paul McWasher you know, they can't be that bad, right and You know,
01:09:20: Tony Meano wants to go there right so it's it's got to be a good place and So as I said
01:09:28: Donnie had drawn me back in one of you meet this guy who came overseas to check out GFC and Eventually, I wanted to become a member of GFC.
01:09:38: This was in April of 2016 and I remember it because it was the week the
01:09:45: Sunday before my birthday and I talked to Nick about becoming a member after the
01:09:50: Sunday the Sunday service Or the
01:09:55: Sunday evening service So they had a Sunday morning service and Sunday evening service I talked to Nick after that and he said let's talk let's talk after service with with Mike and I agreed to do that and Yeah, I just remember
01:10:13: So yeah I sat down and and for some reason I had this thought that I should have I should have recorded that Conversation in hindsight.
01:10:21: I really wish I would have But thankfully there's plenty of audio of what Mike and Nick and others have said there
01:10:28: But yeah, they sat me sat we sat down at a table and in the church there at at the old build building that they had in downtown
01:10:38: Davenport and I just remember Mike and Nick having really stern looks on their face like they were
01:10:45: Their eyes were piercing right through me Made me very uncomfortable made me feel really small and Yeah, I remember
01:10:54: Mike asking me Questions about my testimony again, he was bringing up my sin
01:11:05: And You know they He brought up you know, he asked me if I you know, if I I'm sorry.
01:11:17: I'm looking at my reading my testimony again. It's You know,
01:11:23: I brought up how you know I was willing to go down there to get a job in McDonald's or whatever it would take to To get down to Davenport right to move down there and they just looked at me looked at each other and looked at me and thought
01:11:36: I was made me feel like I was crazy for thinking that you know, they expressed that McDonald's wasn't acceptable, you know,
01:11:41: I Guess I needed more income or something. I'm not sure You know, they brought up my sex life again.
01:11:49: They brought up my willful sin again, you know, they they did anything to shame me He told me, you know, if anyone loves
01:11:56: God they'll keep his commandments, you know, they asked me if I've been if I kept the Commandments Obviously I hadn't
01:12:07: You know and the real kicker the real the thing that that you know that really got to me
01:12:16: You know, they asked me where I deserve to be for looking at women of lust and at this point
01:12:21: I'd been broken down I was I was crying like a baby and I said in the deepest darkest pit of hell and They see
01:12:28: Mike and Nick see new briefs fries surprised by my reply and then Mike asked me and this is this is verbatim
01:12:36: This is this is what Mike said if elder Nick's wife was naked in the other room would you have sex with her and I was just I was can totally confused by this.
01:12:48: I was just there's just like what were you talking about? And and then I was wondering why he would even ask me that and then he and then he went on to He paused and he went on to say something to shame me again
01:13:00: And I started crying again, and then and then Mike said I command you to repent
01:13:05: Chris And then that's when I lifted my head. I looked Mike in the eye and I said that's
01:13:10: God's command and You know Mike Mike, you know kind of ruffled his feathers and he began to Say things to shame me and to condemn me again and You know after this interrogation, you know, they they they got up and you know
01:13:31: Nick said this is the most loving thing we do for you Chris, you know To basically show that I wasn't a
01:13:37: Christian and I need to need to repent and get saved Yeah, I need to get right with God and they they rubbed my back and left and you know
01:13:46: I sat there crying and I was confused and you know, I thought you know, maybe
01:13:51: I really am NOT a Christian You know Donnie and and the guy from overseas were there
01:14:01: And they were waiting to give me a ride home and there asked me what went on and you know I was just really angry and I remember slamming
01:14:08: Donnie's Donnie's door and You know, I asked him that same question, you know, how how can a pastor say something like that How can
01:14:17: Mike say that, you know, if elder Nick's wife was naked in the other room, would you have sex with her? And and they were like in what context in what context did he say that?
01:14:29: I'm just thinking in what context it doesn't matter what context how can it matter? What context is that?
01:14:35: Okay to say, you know, yeah, here's one of the things I'm hearing from you You know
01:14:40: There's some interesting things drew is saying with showing videos of his wife doing gymnastics Seems like Mike is provoking provoking men to lust, you know
01:14:50: Asking a question, you know Read Ephesians 5 the first part of it where it says that we there are certain things we should not mention right
01:15:00: Putting that question out there to you. It's provoking Let me let me do this for you.
01:15:07: You mentioned a word Interrogation Mm -hmm. So I'm just gonna play something from last week
01:15:13: Tony in his own words, and maybe you can answer Okay, the word interrogate.
01:15:19: That's a strong word and as a retired detective I know exactly what that word means.
01:15:25: So so paint so paint paint that picture for us Why is it that you use the word interrogation?
01:15:33: We felt Conversation, right? So and and you know, I'm gonna that's that's the question he asked you use the same word now folks
01:15:42: I'm gonna play from last week. What what we end up hearing? You know what her response was because basically you're gonna hear a lot of what
01:15:53: I think we just heard now Donna What? now Donna What?
01:16:00: To share publicly You say they were very personal what what kind of yeah,
01:16:05: I'm sorry, I was in the wrong I'm sorry, that's a strong word and as a retired detective
01:16:10: I know exactly what that word means. So so paint so paint paint that picture for us
01:16:17: Why is it that you use the word interrogation? We felt Conversation, right we felt
01:16:24: Interrogated because one they would ask us to share our testimony.
01:16:30: This is a big thing with them You have to share your testimony with them. They try to use your testimony to start asking these really probing very personal questions that pertain to your salvation and how you got saved they it was like they were trying to Put doubt in us that we were really saved.
01:16:54: Okay, so Chris let me ask you you just heard what Donna said with the cult of wells Is that the same feeling that you experienced from what you were just described?
01:17:04: Yeah, absolutely. I mean it it sounds tick for tack. Okay It's I haven't
01:17:10: I and I haven't heard that that audio from Tony from the from cult of wells Until a few months ago and Kevin sent it to me
01:17:19: So let me ask Stephen you you had a meeting you wanted to talk about Yeah, well after that After that kind of thing with Donnie and the phone and all that a couple weeks later,
01:17:31: I don't remember how it was set up but I met Mike for lunch for a meeting and You know,
01:17:41: I I didn't know what to expect but you know, I just trying to Understand what was going on.
01:17:48: And and so I met him there and he was just so Angry and you know, he just said look at you.
01:17:57: You cannot talk to anybody that goes to my church. I'm the pastor here You know you and then he started
01:18:05: Asking me well, you're you're on the streets Evangelizing and all this stuff, you know, who's who who gives you the authority to do that?
01:18:14: I said well, I part of a mission society. We're starting to go to a church here in town and you know,
01:18:20: I have Different people that You know that I'm beholden to that are my authority and my pastor knows about it and he said well he goes
01:18:32: I'm There are no real churches in this whole town of them other than mine
01:18:38: I'm the this is the only real church my church in the Quad Cities I'd You know,
01:18:47: I I didn't say anything. I didn't know what he was trying to get at I I was stunned, you know, and then
01:18:55: He started talking about You know, there's only five churches in the
01:19:02: United States that are capable of Authorizing and sending evangelists out on the street
01:19:10: Yeah, five Yeah, one was Jeff Kirkland's church in st. Louis. The other one was one in Baltimore.
01:19:17: One was Chuck O 'Neill's church The other one was grace community and his Note the only churches in the
01:19:24: United States That have any authority to send anybody on the streets. So he he told me you don't
01:19:31: You don't belong on the streets. You have no authority You go he and he was going on about well if somebody sets up an outreach
01:19:41: Then who's who's in charge who and I said well Whoever sets it up is in charge.
01:19:48: He goes well That is absolutely you cannot do that. He said in the
01:19:53: Quad Cities No one can be on the street evangelizing without my direct
01:20:01: Supervision. Yes, Stephen. Did did you at any point talk to him about I mean, he's claiming that your pastor like You're saying who you whose authority you're under and he's he's basically saying they don't have authority
01:20:15: Only these five churches have authority did he ever explain where he gets his authority to anathematize all but five churches in the world, you know,
01:20:27: I Kind of I don't know what to say because I don't want to make this personal yeah, and I don't want to make it
01:20:36: I'm just I'm curious whether because because what I'm hearing as I'm listening to you and You know, one of the things like one thing we do here with apologetics live is we want to teach people how to do apologetics how to recognize things
01:20:51: I'm listening to you and the thing that's going through my mind is I'm hearing you talk about it You know from from your eyewitness testimony him saying something where he is.
01:21:00: He is assuming an authority That he says other pastors don't have
01:21:08: Right Where where does he get the authority to then turn and say
01:21:14: They're not I kind of knew Mike I mean I was just I don't even know I was so devastated
01:21:20: I don't even know what to say. I finally told him dude But what happened to you
01:21:28: I said Who do you think you are? You know, you're just a guy
01:21:36: You know, I and I'm older than you and how are you? Yelling at me in this
01:21:42: IV at this same place. He's yelling me about all this and he said, oh, yeah, by the way
01:21:48: He says I see you joined always seen you never got my approval. I said Mike I You're not my pastor never were
01:21:57: You know, I'm not beholden to you. Oh my gosh. He was so angry. So you were you were never a member of the church
01:22:04: We only went there. I think I my wife only went there twice And she was gone and then
01:22:10: I hung in there an extra week So so you were there three weeks yet He felt that you needed his authority to go to any other church
01:22:22: He told me that that Bible study on Saturday. I only went to one Bible study And he said when you go to that candidate school, you cannot say yes or no without my approval.
01:22:32: I Okay, you know I don't even know what to tell the guy the thing is
01:22:38: I can't I know Mike and I know his parents are used to and I'm just hoping for the best and you know trying to support him and I just I had no idea
01:22:49: What he was saying and where he was coming from and I mean he ended up standing up and screamed at me that I was a wolf and That never ever talked to anybody in his church ever again and then he took off and I Couldn't couldn't believe it.
01:23:10: All right, you know Chris I want to I want to ask you a question Yeah Do you did you get the sense in your conversations with Mike that?
01:23:20: I'm just listening to both your testimonies, but more so yours. It seems to me like Mike Really seems to focus in on people's sin and not their spiritual growth now
01:23:32: That could be just because I'm hearing just one side of this But in your experience you you've shared that he would focus on on sin a lot did he have an equal amount of time or Roughly equal amount of time that he would focus on on your on grace and in God's maturing in your life
01:23:50: Or did it always seem to focus just on sin? Yeah, there was definitely a lot of hammering down on my on sin and and my specific sin that he heard about You know, he would address sin and the in individuals and Bible studies as well
01:24:07: He would I mean as you've heard him call people out from the pulpit as well But if you were one -on -one with him, yeah, he would talk about your your personal sin
01:24:18: Okay Can I can I just ask Chris? did Me and and if you're not uncomfortable with this word, that's fine.
01:24:26: But were you ever offered absolution? What was were you ever told?
01:24:33: your your sin is forgiven or can be forgiven or or Was it that?
01:24:39: Because you're not a member your sin isn't forgiven. Um He you might have mentioned something about how
01:24:49: Christ, you know did what I couldn't Okay But yeah, it definitely seemed like if I didn't submit to Mike Mike and Nick and the elders at GFC.
01:25:01: I wasn't truly saved I mean it didn't seem like I could stay at my church in Cedar Rapids and also be at GFC at the same time and and really be a part of what they're doing or really
01:25:14: He wouldn't say that outright, you know, you know If you the only way you can be saved is if you come to GFC He wouldn't say that outright, but I definitely got the impression, you know
01:25:22: Unless I'm unless I'm full all -in with them, you know that I'm in sin or there's something not right with me
01:25:28: Did he ever refer to you as a Christian? Did he ever say? You're a Christian.
01:25:34: You're saved You you can have confidence in Christ. I mean did he ever did he ever in that sense provide?
01:25:41: absolution or was it always just Basically pouring on law to break you down Yeah, he did refer to me as brother a few times
01:25:52: There was other time he would say, you know, I'm not really sure if you're a brother, you know I still want to see where you're at with things
01:25:58: But it was like it was like one minute, you know I'd be his brother and then like the next next time I next week or next time
01:26:04: I visited like I wasn't his brother Like it was always like I was really confused about like where I was at with him
01:26:10: You know and determining the relationship with him and determine my relationship with whether he thought
01:26:15: I was a brother in Christ or not You know as I was always confused about where I was exactly it led to me doubting
01:26:23: Doubting my salvation Okay, and this something this is something, you know, we're gonna we thank both you guys for for coming on But you guys
01:26:34: Yeah, and and and let me just say Chris before you go. I know you're still in backstage You know, it grieves me to hear what you were put through All right as a pastor
01:26:46: It's grieving me and and I this is the first time we've ever spoken that I know of I Feel bad that you're you've had to suffer this way
01:27:02: Hey in Andrew guys, I would also mention with Chris what Chris just said, you know,
01:27:08: Mike would call me brother He would try to put his arm around me perhaps or whatever. This is a gaslighting technique.
01:27:17: I This is exactly what I wanted to address because Ken this is what we saw with the cult of wells
01:27:24: It is the same exact behavior that Tony and I and you and Matt addressed and it's this idea that they would try to tear down someone's testimony and Build that person back up in them
01:27:40: It's the exact same thing that Tony Miano called out with the cult of wells. Yeah Well, this is this is the same thing but that Mormons do right
01:27:50: Most recently the Mormon Church does this thing now? where they'll often have The the missionaries the elders bring you back to the church and and they put you in a room
01:28:04: They'll play some videos some of their Conversion videos and they'll put you on the spot and say in essence
01:28:10: Do you want the benefits of this if so you you have to join us? And it's this this technique of you push and you push and you push and you break somebody down To where they're malleable
01:28:25: To where they're questioning themselves Where they don't they don't know the truth and you're then they're standing and providing the truth.
01:28:33: It's it it's it's more than just It's more than just gaslighting
01:28:41: Kevin it's it's far worse than that It's far more controlling than that.
01:28:46: It's it's that to the nth degree because ultimately is is that you have
01:28:53: They have absolutely could absolute control and with a word can say you're in or you're out and and That's that's part of the the entire cycle of abuse that we see with cultic groups
01:29:08: Okay, so Kevin let me ask you a question you were in the church for a while I was I was listening to To Steve and Chris You know and they both mentioned about people that had to get up in front of the congregation and give explicit details.
01:29:26: I mean the thought of making a father get up and talk about his
01:29:34: Lusts of other women in front of his children or Or it to ask the question if about the other.
01:29:40: I mean, that's just it's crazy but So other members had to do this has in while you were at the church
01:29:47: Did Mike Reed ever get up or any of the elders or Tony Milano ever have to get up and do this?
01:29:54: Same practice of giving explicit details. I don't I'm not asking did Mike ever say I've committed adultery Because I mean he there are there are those public things that he's he's done
01:30:05: The the question is has he got into the same details? In front of the congregation that he requires other that he confessed to lusting after other women in the church or things like that Well You know
01:30:21: Mike's sins, whatever. He might confess. We're always you know, I haven't been perfect.
01:30:26: I you know I Was harsh with my wife this week or I mean they were really benign and You know and then one of the things that really bothered
01:30:39: Jan I'll let her speak about it was He went for a year and a half or something without ever confessing any skin in these these public confessions of sin
01:30:49: So, you know You know, you can explain that a little bit about what he would say about why he didn't do that Well, he said he didn't specifically asked him because we were to get up and make confessions on a
01:31:05: Sunday evening and we were told that everybody would do that and I was starting to become quite confused with Did I need to get up and repent for every sin that I had that week?
01:31:17: Did I need to get up there? and and if if my children knew that I sinned do
01:31:22: I need to go and make sure that they know that I've confessed that to God and and Elder Nick got very upset with me asking that because he said we're not the
01:31:32: Catholic Church but I would I had I was very confused on on what should I be confessing because many of us got up often every week and I just I just wasn't sure do
01:31:45: I go every time because there were some people that didn't and and So I asked Mike himself and he said
01:31:50: I go up when I am If there is if I'm not having victory over sin
01:31:58: If I feel that my sin has reached a level where I'm not having victory of it then I will confess it and I thought that's not what you tell us to do and I mean,
01:32:07: I'm confessing. I mean we have victory over sin who had victory over sin
01:32:12: Jesus Christ but I you know as a as a believer, I think in the church it was to be that As a saved person you were not to stumble you were not to have sin
01:32:23: And to go back to your question about confessions. He wanted us to explicitly give
01:32:31: Details of all sexual sin when we were baptized if we made a confession of faith in our testimony
01:32:37: He said to me you should really give Detail and I said
01:32:42: I have children and my family in the audience and I said I will not and he said well
01:32:47: That is a shame because God can use that God can use your testimony And I just thought that is that is not right.
01:32:54: So when you have instances of explicit sexual Conversation with young children there.
01:33:02: I would ask anybody That is not right that that goes on to say that somebody could look into that and say this is in it more than inappropriate it is
01:33:17: I would go to far to say is child endangerment. I'm sorry Well, I think I think the issue is and I said
01:33:24: I mentioned this last week. I have talked to people who are experts in in the field of sexual sins
01:33:33: It seems like Mike is The issue it's why
01:33:38: Mike isn't doing these things, but he's asking everyone else. It seems like a type of wearism
01:33:43: Okay, that that they're you know, he knows he can't engage in this adulterous of Relationships that he used to do before anymore
01:33:53: But he still gets off on what goes on in his mind And you he likes to I think it seems like he likes to hear these details.
01:34:01: This is this is a There's two types of wearism the voyeurism where people like to go in Peeping Tom and the others that like to hear details and he seems like the one that likes to hear details
01:34:14: I'm not only I remember going through my testimony and him asking these
01:34:19: It's I mean, I I shared I mean you get to this point where you share with him
01:34:25: And then he wants to know more. I mean, he'll ask you questions that aren't even you know, well, did you do this?
01:34:32: Well, did you do that? And I'm just like I'm not answering that and and that's between me and the
01:34:38: Lord I'm thinking no, but it's none of your business Can you give specifics or are you willing to give specifics as to what kinds of questions he would ask?
01:34:47: He would ask me if I had ever masturbated if I you know things like that sex before marriage, of course things like that, but if I had ever done that and You know,
01:35:00: I just was like I've given you my testimony, you know why
01:35:10: And were those public meetings or were those private meetings Okay, so let's let's bring
01:35:19: Rhonda in next and Welcome to the show. Nice to meet you because the first time
01:35:26: I'm speaking with you that I know of so Could you you as you've seen we've kind of gone through could you give your test now if my understanding that I think
01:35:38: Kevin said before we went live that that you were there before Mike Reed came to the church.
01:35:44: Is that right? Okay, well hold on you're muted let me unmute you You could unmute yourself
01:35:52: Got it. Sorry about that Yes, that's true. I we Kevin and Jen and I were part of the original group that Was to launch that church prior to Mike coming
01:36:06: Okay, can you give kind of your testimony and and again we want it for Ken and I and pop in with questions as we have but Could you just help us with your testimony and what you saw?
01:36:20: And did you see some of these things that we talked about that define a cult? so I Had I typed several things up Based on your definition of a cult and the 12 questions that you were seeking for Mike to answer
01:36:38: And I think the first one that jumps out To me because it is in both
01:36:44: The five definition the five characteristics of a cult and in the twelve questions number six and the twelve questions is
01:36:53: Have you ever said let me pull it up here. Have you ever? Said Do you believe the elders have nearly unlimited authority in the lives of their congregants and that directly speaks to the authoritarianism in one of the characteristics of the cult and One of the things and this happened after Kevin and Jen were already gone when they were teaching through the confession statement that they were adopting and that I was present for a women's
01:37:23: Bible study when they were teaching through a specific section and Tyler one of the elders was speaking directly to the authority of an elder and he asked the question of the ladies
01:37:37: How what they thought the scope of an elders authority would be in the believers lives and one of the ladies answered that she thought it would be as it relates to the teaching of the word and Tyler smiled and Kind of nodded but then proceeded to say
01:37:58: Explicitly we would teach that there is no limit to the scope of an elders authority and Wait, he said that Specifically said that you know, is that that public?
01:38:13: This is it was during a woman's Bible study and it was specifically stated as they were teaching through the confession statement
01:38:20: We would teach that there is no limit to the scope of an elders authority in in the lives of other people in the lives of their
01:38:29: Believers of their congregants of their members. Well, it seems from what
01:38:34: Stephen was saying even those who just if they're in the Yeah, just show up to their church or or as I have heard if they're if they're just on the streets in that city
01:38:47: Right, and and I don't have experience in those situations But it was it was specifically taught and specifically stated during a woman's
01:38:58: Bible study that that's what they would teach that there's no limit to the scope of an elders authority And so I want to ask
01:39:04: Ken. What are your thoughts on that? Because I know
01:39:10: I just I'm hearing her say this and I'm thinking to what we what we dealt with with the the Church of Wells It you know what?
01:39:18: I don't even think those those two yahoos would go so far as to even bother to say that I Don't think they had the gall to make that statement
01:39:27: Yeah, you're referring to the guys that the guys down at Church of Wells. Yeah, I don't I don't think they would have even said
01:39:33: That yeah, I I mean they might have practiced it, but they would never have just publicly said it
01:39:39: I mean to say that there's no limit Yeah, is that you know what?
01:39:44: This is this is Joseph Smith going to Rick Rigden and saying hey,
01:39:51: I need you to divorce your wife and give her to me Right and 24 hours. He later he comes back and he says, okay,
01:39:59: I'll do it and Smith says Oh, no, just kidding. God told me I actually just need your daughter This is what it's the same thing
01:40:08: It's the same thing These things do happen Yeah, so, all right, so so I'm just blown away by by that That so yeah,
01:40:20: I guess continue but it's because I've the reason for that question was because it seems like he
01:40:26: Seems to be saying he's got authority But that I didn't realize he that they actually said it was specifically thought as they were working through the confession statement
01:40:36: Wow Do you remember Rhonda early on? within women's
01:40:41: Bible studies also on Wednesdays how Actually, I remember it being a whole group men and women then talking about if you come to us for counsel they went through a whole thing on Listening to them versus heeding their counsel
01:40:59: And if you you need if you come to us you need to not only listen but heed our counsel and they went through the whole thing of what that was and That you needed to do what they told you to do
01:41:11: If you weren't it would be unprofitable for you and you would be sinning. I Do have so under the authoritarianism
01:41:22: Characteristics of a cult I had some other statements and and the very next statement is That to not submit to your elders would be unprofitable for you and they use that often
01:41:32: Even when we were going through Different Studies and if they asked us to do some homework or to answer some questions
01:41:42: They would even use that to not do this as you've been asked is Unprofitable for you and you need to really consider that and they use that lots
01:41:50: To carry weight in whatever they would ask of you as far as Expecting us to trust them
01:41:59: They would tell us that scripture tells us that our hearts are deceitful and desperately wicked and so we were not to seek outside teaching to test what we were being taught or That supported what we were convicted of or what we believe to be true of the scriptures
01:42:16: But rather we were supposed to simply trust them because they were who the Lord had placed over us
01:42:23: I Have another thing if if you want to say that they are controlling or lording over you by wanting to talk to you about something
01:42:30: Repeatedly then you are the one that has an issue and are taking control by not wanting or being willing to talk about it
01:42:36: Wanting to go somewhere where you aren't talked to about it is wrong and probably sinful. So if if if they're repeatedly bringing something to you was to the point that you were feeling like You wanted to maybe consider going somewhere else because it was starting to Weigh on you
01:42:56: Then that you were wrong and probably in sin for wanting to leave and not being willing to continue having that conversation so Those are some of the notes
01:43:06: I had as far as authoritarianism goes I have more and we we did hear that very same thing last week
01:43:14: With the you know, your heart is deceitful and desperately wicked We heard that very thing from I think it was was the guy's name
01:43:21: Masal or whatever. That was their friend Masal who is in the Church of Wells was would say the same thing.
01:43:27: It's it's yeah, it was the same exact tactic of just That the avoidance of really dealing with issues.
01:43:35: Yeah, there's always an answer, but it's not a it's not a real answer It's just worth tossing, you know scripture at you because it sounds spiritual.
01:43:43: See this is folks This is why groups like this do this It sounds spiritual to say these things and therefore it's like they're not doing wrong because look
01:43:52: They're they're giving spiritual language and it sounds good. But but What I want you guys to see is what's underneath it
01:44:01: What's really happening here that there's there's more going on here with this that isn't being addressed well, and and One of the things that that I said the beginning is the cognitive dissonance is real issue for me
01:44:18: That the idea Rhonda that you could hear that and apply it to yourself, but not them
01:44:24: How do I mean I mean did that thought ever even pop into your head It didn't until I was making these notes and then actually as I was making these notes and I thought it was right there
01:44:36: All of our hearts are wicked and deceitful. And so why not trust mine and trust theirs?
01:44:42: So as I was typing that up it it was the first time that it had actually occurred to me and I think that that kind of a thing is it's one of those pieces where it's it's they're relying upon the lack of critical thinking because because The the idea here is is you've got these ideas intention, which is everybody's hearts deceitfully wicked
01:45:04: Therefore trust someone whose heart is deceitfully wicked You know, these are almost really what we're seeing in politics today with governors and you know those in authority
01:45:17: It's it's good You listen to me, but it's okay for me to do, you know, good
01:45:24: You see but not for me. I don't have Thanksgiving, but I'm gonna have Thanksgiving with with my
01:45:29: Generation multi generations and but you can't do that. You stay home. You can't go to a restaurant, but I can go to a restaurant
01:45:37: And over and over again this proved to be the case with that there was always gross hypocrisy, you know
01:45:42: I mean, I think Mike's parenting. He you know, he held himself up as a bastion of Parenting excellence and you know
01:45:50: I mean he had lots of trouble with his kids and his parenting was probably even by his own admission was horrendous
01:45:58: Well, somehow that didn't disqualify him. I would expect it to be because I mean, you know
01:46:03: It's easy to be controlling in other people's lives that don't live with you.
01:46:09: Yeah Okay, couldn't do this couldn't do that couldn't play sports couldn't be in theater couldn't do this, but his kids
01:46:18: Could miss church they could golf they could bowl they could do whatever it was, you know
01:46:23: I mean it was oh you never asked us about that So so Rhonda I know you had more because you could see so Continue on with you know
01:46:35: And I know we're peppering you with questions because Ken and I are trying to learn more to get an understanding and also to help
01:46:40: The audience understand you you guys you and Kevin and Jenny lived through this for Ken and I were we're hearing this and We're evaluating it with with a different mindset as well.
01:46:55: Ken and I are looking at this to say, okay Is this a classical? Definition is it fitting into the classical definition here of a cult?
01:47:02: Is this is it's just a dangerous doctrine or is it something far worse? So so continue on so I'll back up I'm reluctant because after sitting under their teaching for over nine years.
01:47:15: I I Still Struggle with knowing fully what scripture twisting is
01:47:23: I'm under sound teaching now, and I have a pastor who I'm so thankful for But one of the things that I think applies to scripture twisting and correct me if I'm wrong
01:47:35: Two of the examples I would have are that they would say that scripture says that wives are to be workers at home and Therefore because that's what's in scripture anything outside of that is outside of God's design for a wife and a mom and so working outside the home was not approved of If you were a wife and a mom
01:47:58: The other thing scripture talks about teaching your children teach them as they go by the way
01:48:05: And so because scripture tells us to teach our children Sending them to to school is outside of God's design for what a family is to do
01:48:16: Okay, so I don't know that I'd say those that might not fit the definition of scripture twisting because okay
01:48:22: I'm not I wasn't sure. Yeah, it's more the at least what I'm hearing. It seems it's more of a misapplication
01:48:30: Yeah, especially Especially it can tell you a bit especially when you think about the fact that When you're when you're doing this and you're you're you're trying to say this is applied this way, okay
01:48:48: The The thing that they're they're doing is saying this is what scripture demands.
01:48:53: They're they're making it a command now It's interesting with the second one. You brought up because that's out of Deuteronomy chapter 6
01:49:01: Given to the men So if they're gonna actually put it in context
01:49:08: Then none of the men should be working by their definition. The men should be homeschooling Now so we put those two together and what we'd have they have a real problem
01:49:16: Because if the men can't be working because they get to do the homeschooling and the the women can't go work
01:49:22: I guess no one can work Ken you were gonna say something well the the first the first of those two is is the one that i'm
01:49:34: I struggle with because on one hand. Yeah, it does say that on the other hand if we look at proverbs 31 She's right the part of the value that she's bringing is
01:49:43: She had she does work. She does bring in an income Good point that's part of the value and so Here is and and andrew will say this
01:49:54: I I I want to be generous to a fault here That's that this could just be very easily ignorance
01:50:04: Because there are a lot of good christian people who hold to very similar or the same types of ignorances
01:50:14: Right, and and that that's one of the challenges here is So you heard me say this last week and i'll say it again is the hardest thing in this is is mike
01:50:24: Is mike simply an ignorant man? Who's unskilled and untaught? Or or it does he know what he's doing and that's the heart the hardest part in all of this
01:50:37: Is is when I read that when I when I saw the the You know, you you had written that to us
01:50:44: Uh yesterday my my first thought was man, I think that that I know a lot of good christian people, especially in in the
01:50:53: You know very conservative side of of christian homeschooling, etc. Who would hold to that? And I don't and that's that's the problem with some of this stuff right is is there's a lot of things that are are gray areas
01:51:05: Sure, but it's not taught as a gray area, right? Struggle here's here's some scripture.
01:51:11: I mean in in act 1614 a woman named lydia Right. She's a seller of purple purple, right?
01:51:18: Was she in sin? So and and ken let's play exactly what you said about the church walls.
01:51:23: Here's the irony for the listeners uh I'm going to play a clip that ken forgot he said
01:51:30: But this is what he actually said to me when I first came to him and said That I wanted to do this.
01:51:35: He just said I think that you know I don't think they're a cult. I think that They're just dumb
01:51:42: And this is what he ended up hearing himself say when I played it last week It could just be a bunch of really confused dumb kids
01:51:51: Yeah for lack of a better way of saying it that they they honestly think that that they're doing the right thing and they're just Really confused christians can make really big dumb mistakes.
01:52:02: Yeah So you're saying the same thing here So At least you're being consistent trying to be
01:52:10: Okay, so you and I at least over the six or seven years haven't changed our position I guess one question is did tony change his?
01:52:19: because You know, he was the one that did that. So Rhonda go go these things that these things that rhonda brought up are dogma for gfc for every woman's bible study there were
01:52:32: Hot topics that were discussed Over and over were these only discussed in ladies in women's bible studies
01:52:40: Well, I wasn't at men's bible studies. So yeah Like for kevin you hear this in the men's bible studies things like this taught
01:52:47: Yeah, the the men aren't yeah, the men aren't going to get probably beat up quite as much as the women do
01:52:53: Um, and and of course this stuff comes up in the wednesday teachings the sunday evening teachings or sunday afternoons
01:52:59: Whatever they were at the time You know understand that when he's declared a position
01:53:06: He will argue that To the death and I think enough scriptural examples of the worker at home from titus 2 has been brought up About lydia about the proverb 31 woman that there's some matter of conscience here
01:53:20: That families can decide for themselves You I don't think we're not allowed to decide for ourselves, right?
01:53:28: You don't build Doctrine around one single passage That that's just something you don't do
01:53:35: Well, you can I mean because if it's in scripture, but you got to put it in context, you know
01:53:41: It's interesting humble clay said this Um after many hours of hearing testimonies on this
01:53:46: I don't think ignorance is the problem Yeah agreed and I think you know, once again, you know humble clay whoever you are contact me
01:53:54: So I know who your real name is, but this guy nails it like every time All right, um, it's probably a woman and that would even make it worse for mike maybe um
01:54:06: I mean it this is this is just again. It's grieving to hear this. This is this is why we're asking these questions of him but it's also him going to a husband and wife in personal meetings and saying even though they're um children out of the home
01:54:23: The wife still ought not work because your first ministry is to your husband Even though that husband and wife may have said and have talked about it and have agreed to that.
01:54:34: It's okay Not with mike. It is not okay. You will not do that.
01:54:40: You will not your home is out of order well, and one of the other examples that I shared further down, um a woman who was a dear friend of mine who was convinced that she was unsaved because She quit a nursing job that she enjoyed and had a desire to go back to it
01:55:00: And they convinced her that she must not even be saved Because it was a selfish and sinful desire to work outside the home and it was not being content with what god had for her so Would you marry this this nurse?
01:55:19: I'm, sorry. She was married. Okay Yeah Did he did he have the same policy for single women
01:55:28: No, not entirely Did he did he require the single women to stay in their father's home until Most of them most of them came to the church after they were already out on their own
01:55:41: So, I mean if he's going to be consistent, he should send them back to the father's home Until they're married right
01:55:48: Well, I think mike was the head of them Yeah, mike became their head
01:55:54: I would agree Yeah, which is to some that's even scarier mike and the elders became
01:56:01: Their authority in their head and that becomes the that authoritarianism that we talk about There's no biblical
01:56:12: Basis for an elder becoming the head over a over a woman who's single The bible has two categories your father
01:56:21: Or your husband There are many single women that felt the oppression of those men
01:56:28: On them many. Well, one of one of them that was under this authority
01:56:35: Text messaged me today and and she sort of gave me permission to talk about one of the things that was sort of brought up is
01:56:45: You know Medications and I don't want to get too far off off course, but they taught specifically that it was sinful to be under any sort of medication and and this woman
01:56:57: You know specifically like an antidepressant or something, correct? Yes. I'm, sorry. I should have clarified that.
01:57:02: Thanks ronda And so if you were taking that that was sinful that was idolatry
01:57:07: You were trusting that medicine before god and then there may very well be some real legitimate reasons uh to be on a
01:57:17: Medication now. Listen, I I think we have to be careful. I think it can become long. It can be addictive It can be a very you know, there can be other issues i'm not here to debate that but i'm just saying that you know,
01:57:28: I I think it's They seem to have trouble even understanding the scriptures rightly So i'm not sure how they got into all of a sudden practicing medicine in addition to that Right yeah,
01:57:42: I mean that's It this right, um, this is this is the the
01:57:49: What what started the whole thing with the cult of wells andrew? Why did abc get out there in the first place?
01:57:55: Why why did they get national news attention? abc nbc because they're controlling behavior there
01:58:03: You know and and they in their case go on it wasn't just it wasn't the control
01:58:09: It was it was they the faith healing over the baby that died well, uh, well, yeah that well that was that was uh, nbc,
01:58:16: I guess gotten abc was over the over the The girl that they were kept from her parents
01:58:22: So there are two different reasons for the region. So you're right. So they they actually They decided that it was sinful
01:58:31: For parents to take their child to the hospital They should have faith in god
01:58:37: Trust god now. I spoke to a medical doctor with one of the his his son got stuck into the cult of wells
01:58:45: He he told me the condition this child had was 100 percent treatable had they gone to a hospital
01:58:53: But the elders said that would be sinful so I can speak
01:59:01: Side note to that. Um, my daughter has type 1 diabetes. She was diagnosed when she was two and a half
01:59:07: Um, and when she first went on an insulin pump her blood sugars were very unstable um, particularly overnight and so her doctors had us to Get up in the middle of the night to test her blood sugar to make sure that it was at a stable level level for her to be safe through the night and I was um questioned on that and was told that it was a lack of faith and a lack of trust in god
01:59:36: To get up and test your blood sugar in the night that Yeah, utterly asinine so they they
01:59:50: I'm, i'm I want this to be repeated. They told you they're not medical doctors, correct?
01:59:56: Correct And yet they're giving you medical advice Type 1 diabetes is perfectly treatable, but you have to manage the blood sugar levels and part of managing that is that you have to test
02:00:08: On a regular basis and because she was young And her blood sugars were unstable particularly overnight
02:00:14: We would get up in the middle of the night to check and we were told that that was a lack of faith Okay, so obviously this must have come up in in discussion
02:00:23: Maybe in a counseling session. He asked about it and you said you you you're probably not thinking anything more than just saying yeah, we get up and Well, it was well known
02:00:32: It was well known that that was what we were going through during that phase of our life Because her blood sugars were unstable and I was tired so did for clarification son
02:00:44: Did you continue to to be open about that after that or did you start to close down?
02:00:50: And not want it known that you were continued to check the practice, you know the the blood sugar um
02:00:59: Because i don't know that I don't know that he ever asked again I was open about it with the women Because they were compassionate
02:01:07: Okay because because what the tendency with I think we will end up seeing you know, we
02:01:15: Say that in many other areas that happened and I tended to Not talk about those things and and jen had shared that as well.
02:01:24: Absolutely. What it does is Here here's what this practice does for folks and and again, it's you know,
02:01:32: I know that we're at the two hour mark We're going to go longer a little bit. We still have two more people we're going to talk with um and then ken ken and I'll give a synopsis, but Here's the thing that it does and I want people to be able to identify the practice because if there's anyone in gfc
02:01:48: That is listening I want you to hear what i'm saying as someone who doesn't have the experience there But has experience with dealing with tons of cults and world religions and seeing these behaviors what this does by by Making people feel like something they're doing is a sin
02:02:06: But then they don't want the grilling And the interrogation of bringing it up So what that does what they what people do is suppress it
02:02:15: That gives them a greater feeling of guilt like they're doing something wrong That vindicates the message that the controlling people have in in saying that you're not saved
02:02:26: You need them and and when you do finally say something about it, if you do It's well, this is the reason you've been in such sin
02:02:35: It's it's a false guilt. It's a guilt not because of something wrong But you're made to feel like it's wrong
02:02:43: And what that does is put you in a position where you you constantly
02:02:48: Are feeling like there's there's sin in my life They're saying what are you always focusing on the sin and that's all they're talking about is your sin
02:02:54: And it keeps you in the state that they want you in to feel like you need them You depend on them and if you leave them you're lost.
02:03:02: In fact, I spoke to someone who told me exactly that That that because they left they felt
02:03:08: They were lost They needed Them, you know mike and and the elders to keep them from sinning
02:03:17: And the reality is and in this person's case, the reality is what mike and the elders did was not actually help them
02:03:24: Right help this person what they did was occupy this person's time So that they didn't have time
02:03:31: They had no idle time to sin Okay It didn't really teach them.
02:03:37: They didn't teach the person how to overcome sin They just put some things in place so that the person didn't have time to sin.
02:03:45: There's a big difference You know now i'm trying to work with the person to say, okay, let's let's train you how to overcome the sin
02:03:52: Okay, that's what a pastor does what mike did was to keep people in a dependent state that cult leader well
02:04:02: I think that's really a really important point andrew because people are in a state of dependency, you know we've talked about that with the
02:04:11: Continuous counseling that goes on. How long do you have to continue to counsel a marriage before?
02:04:18: It's better I mean, are you a really bad counselor that like you have to have weekly counseling? With husbands or with husbands and wives about their marriage or the wives separately.
02:04:28: How long does this have to go on? I mean we know of at least Several that have been gone on for you know, seven eight nine ten years now.
02:04:36: So how long does it last well? I'm gonna so we'll get back to ronda in a second I just gotta put this up here and kevin you can get a laugh
02:04:44: But uh anthony will love this when he gets around to watching or listening humble clay says anthony time rocks
02:04:51: So if you don't know anthony time is anytime we go over two hours Which I don't do often
02:04:58: Well, I you know, I think it might maybe it's a good time to bring in um
02:05:05: You know one one of our other guests ted who you know, but the marriage gfc gfc
02:05:13: Uh sort of thinks that they're really good at helping marriages and that uh
02:05:19: That has probably actually proved to be the exact opposite that I think they've done more damage to marriages than uh than just about anything and uh
02:05:30: Ted is a friend and he's had a tragic story in that I don't know if that's what what ted wanted to talk about tonight
02:05:36: But there he certainly has lots of other experience with gfc. So ted if you could you know introduce yourself
02:05:43: Welcome to the show by the way first time again. I'm I'm speaking with you that I know of but introduce yourself your background
02:05:49: How you got involved in and a question that I do want to ask of both of you um With some of these things that you're hearing, you know with the counsel you're getting does it?
02:05:59: The focus on your sin and all that does that give you this sense where you're isolated from other people so just on I'd be curious of so ted if you want to you want to start with your background and Yeah, well my ted black is my name and uh,
02:06:15: I started attending grace fellowship in february of 2011
02:06:23: My wife And I were separated at one time And uh, she started going to grace fellowship church and I got a phone call from mike
02:06:32: More or less saying if you want to see your wife again, you should probably come to i'm into bible study here and uh
02:06:40: That's what I did. I went and I stayed there there for two and a half years, I guess and uh yeah,
02:06:47: I probably started going to grace fellowship church and Unfortunately, I am now divorced
02:06:54: From that same woman and uh, you know, i've just got lots of lots of different um
02:07:04: Things that Mike I want to say interfered in in my marriage
02:07:13: That ultimately I believe just ended my marriage. Sorry.
02:07:20: I want to be clear with this Yeah It seems like You know, you feel that mike interfered with your marriage
02:07:29: Brought about the divorce. Can you be specific on that? yeah, and if you can
02:07:34: I understand because it's but mike interfered interfered in the way that Anything that I tried to do to leave my family
02:07:51: Mike would assert and tell tammy Well, you don't really need to listen to that This is how you should do it um and that branched off on just about every aspect of our life so did he was he
02:08:11: It sounds like you're saying he was acting as if he was the authority Over your wife.
02:08:17: Did he ever actually say something like that to either her or you? Not directly he uh, he
02:08:28: He had a way of kind of twisting it and uh manipulating people to think that and Unfortunately my wife took the
02:08:42: Line sinker and the whole boat that she didn't have to this isn't about tammy necessarily, but she
02:08:55: Anything that I would try to do to lead our family was met with lots of resilience Um by her because of mike if that makes sense, yeah, it does
02:09:10: And What was the other question i'm, sorry well just I mean
02:09:17: Explain some of what your experience was there and if you saw any of this stuff that ken and I talked about so there's
02:09:26: You know a couple things Popped in my head as i'm listening here about you know if you disagree with the elders then uh, you're in the wrong and You know at one point i'd read my bible and Hear that same scripture mike would talk about and it'd be totally not totally different but a lot different Then i'm i'm thinking myself.
02:10:00: Well, am I that lost? Am I not understanding That correctly, of course you'd ask him and he would pretty much tell you that this is the way it is
02:10:14: And anyway backing up that you know, I recall one time we were at a men's bible study and I hope can contest to this uh, mike's one of mike's sons
02:10:27: Was getting read ready to move to georgia um to live with we thought mike's brother because this young man was not abiding by his father's
02:10:45: Rules and regulations he was unsaved And mike was telling this to us in this men's bible study and towards the end of it he said not verbatim, but more or less
02:11:02: If you disagree with this decision We elders have made
02:11:08: Then you need to keep that to yourselves end of story and you know ronda was talking about her daughter with her diabetes and I recall another time that um
02:11:30: We had another guy in our church his son had I think was spinal bifida maybe he was going to have a pretty major surgery and Um And it might even been in another men's bible study
02:11:43: Mike more or less mike and nick at the time and I think cal bulkum was the other one at that time
02:11:50: Said that given or excuse me. Um, jeff. There's no reason for you to be there.
02:11:55: God's got this This young man was having major surgery and I remember
02:12:04: Jeff not going If he would have went I am pretty sure He would have got the riot act from the pack of wolves
02:12:19: I uh I might want to insert just a little bit and I I don't disagree with anything that ted has said um
02:12:29: Obviously i've seen some of these uh Comments that have come in, you know people can see that you know ted's hard in this that he's hurting and that You know that this was meant to be a ministry that was supposed to help people and help ministry help marriages and you know,
02:12:49: I I think in all of it ted was really the one that was consistently accused or maligned into being the unbeliever and Listen, I I don't know the state of of his ex -wife.
02:13:02: Tammy. She she was a nice woman. We we liked her um But you know what ted is ted is still in church he's
02:13:11: He's at a good church a good solid bible preaching church with with uh, quality people and Appears to me to be serving the lord and so You know the elders that had basically condemned
02:13:28: Ted had said that he was an unbeliever and uh had consistently encouraged him to repent
02:13:37: You know they missed they they appear to me to be have missed that badly Now, I don't know the secrets of ted's heart.
02:13:44: I don't know what goes on inside of him all the time But what I do know is I have an outward Appearing that ted is still serving the lord and serving the lord and I don't know that he ever stopped serving the lord whenever he was saved so You know,
02:14:00: I I think it's important to note that these men who are so good at discerning salvation Have more often than not missed it
02:14:10: Yeah, I would I would agree kevin, you know uh mike would during tammy and I's marriage counseling, um
02:14:20: A few times mike had come over to our house And it was it was
02:14:31: How do I say it? It was it was Putting a finger at me every time You should do this.
02:14:38: You should do that. You should do this And I I couldn't win for losing and We mike
02:14:52: Nick and cal had a meeting with me and tammy it
02:14:58: At the old drace fellowship church in his office and They talked to tammy and I as a couple and then
02:15:08: They asked him to leave and had a meeting with me and uh They asked me
02:15:16: What makes you believe you're saved And I gave them the reasons
02:15:23: And they said well what would make you believe that you're not saved I gave him a few things
02:15:31: And I even said at one point I've questioned my salvation And I looked at all three of them and said like we all have at some point in our life
02:15:44: And nick Looked me dead in the eye and said we have discerned. Excuse me.
02:15:49: We have discerned that you're an unsaved man And that was the end of our meeting.
02:15:57: They brought tammy back in the meeting Asked me to leave which
02:16:02: I wasn't Real thrilled with The very next day was a sunday and mike
02:16:13: Publicly announced from the pulpit That I am no longer a member of grace fellowship church
02:16:21: Of course he asked me Ted is there anything you want to say? What do you say? I mean
02:16:27: Their decision has already been made their decision was already made before we even had that meeting as far as i'm concerned And After that It was a battle
02:16:41: With Mike and tammy
02:16:49: About Just anything I did. Well, you don't have to listen to him. He's an unsaved man because an abusive husband he uh
02:17:05: He's unsaved. He's abusive You don't need to listen to him and It wasn't much after that.
02:17:18: I ended up leaving that church And I had a meeting with cal bokema who was an elder at the time and tyler
02:17:26: I worked for cal like kevin mentioned here tonight. Lots of people work for one of the guys at that church
02:17:32: Well, I was running his lawn mowing company And I had a meeting with those two and one of the very first things cal said to me is you're never going to make it
02:17:45: In your new job anyway, I left Took the new job left started going to another church
02:17:58: I Asked and encouraged tammy to join me she did for about two weeks
02:18:08: She went back to grace fellowship church Mike and I had several conversations about that I requested that they meet not meet alone
02:18:26: They both said we can't do that I said well, what do you mean?
02:18:31: You can't not do that. Mike said and tammy said well, that'd be asking us to sin
02:18:41: He said how am I asking you to sin? well, how is a
02:18:47: How am I supposed to know what's going on with tammy's life if I don't meet with her? Meet with her at the back of the church
02:18:57: On a sunday afternoon then
02:19:04: They started talking about our sex life with tammy
02:19:13: With me not present and tammy
02:19:23: Told me what they were talking about and I Almost bit my tongue off Because I couldn't even believe what he told her to do
02:19:39: I know i'm jumping around here a little bit, but mike kept my wife
02:19:51: From me. I even told mike one night on a phone call you are
02:20:06: How did I put it you are You are robbing me of the
02:20:15: Respect I deserve for my wife. He said what do you mean?
02:20:22: I said You tell her not to listen to me She should listen to you and if she does listen to me, she's in sin and I had a conversation with mike too about You know,
02:20:41: I think it's tightest too about the older women should should teach the younger women I know i'm kind of mixing it up a little bit, but Mike says no.
02:20:51: No, no, that's the one that's not what it means Tell me what it means He wouldn't do it and he repeatedly told me that By me asking tammy to leave that church
02:21:07: And to come worship with me I was asking her to sin
02:21:13: And I can't even tell you how many times I asked him to show me in scripture where that was well scripture ted was it it sounds like That he's saying that you asking her to go to any other church than his church
02:21:29: That she's leaving the only true church did he give you that impression? Um yeah,
02:21:39: I suppose yeah, he didn't come out and say that directly but um And the church
02:21:46: I was attending he knew about and at one time he even said that that's a good biblical church
02:21:55: But he didn't want her going there Because in his eyes, I was an unsaved man The the problem became that that church that ted now attends in um that that we're talking about Ended up coming against Gfc and trying to well, they came not they didn't come against they came with the purpose of helping
02:22:21: Uh, we've read a lot of their emails. We've read. Um, we we know a lot more about this than we did at the time
02:22:27: But they really wanted to help You know, they had an influx of people coming from gfc to this place and so they wondered why and so they attempted to meet with the elders and And have time with them and learn what was going on and try to assist them if there needed to be some assistance.
02:22:44: Well That got turned around real quickly and rather than them being the helpers they be you know, mike was became their accuser and Uh, you know said they needed to send these people back and just a lot of crazy stuff and we know about hours and hours of conversations and and this and that kind of stuff so really the
02:23:05: You know the church a good biblical church that ted is a part of uh became the the enemy eventually
02:23:17: Well, let me you know, one of the things ted that you said that They determined you're not saved
02:23:28: Correct again Folks part of this is the question is tony miyano in a cult
02:23:34: I'm going to play tony's own words You heard ted's testimony This is what tony said before he joined this church
02:23:43: Yeah, and we're gonna and we're gonna get into that a little bit Apparently these these guys I don't know if they still hold to it
02:23:50: But at one point they profess to have the ability to discern whether or not a person is saved so tony saw that as cultic behavior before joining gfc
02:24:06: The question I guess is does he still hold? That this practice is cultic behavior
02:24:13: Ted I hope that you're seeing the comments on screen That we're showing everyone is praying for you
02:24:22: People are are saddened to hear what you went through We can hear that this is it still hurts
02:24:32: There should never be a time That a pastor is is putting himself
02:24:42: Between a husband and a wife That's that's not his role
02:24:49: Um, he's supposed to be focusing on strengthening that marriage in fact
02:24:55: Had he come to the conclusion From and the only way he could come to a conclusion that you're not saved would be from You know seeing a a life that isn't in line with scripture
02:25:08: Which you know just seeing what like what kevin said? I mean here you're you're you haven't abandoned the faith.
02:25:14: You haven't walked away You've gone through the hardship. You're continuing continuing to to you know, pursue christ and to persevere
02:25:23: Yeah, this church yeah, I mean it's that's more the sign of a believer, but If they determined you were an unbeliever
02:25:35: Then there there is a scripture they should have told tammy They should have told her to win you over with love or respect
02:25:47: Instead it's like no. No, let's cut you out because the Behavior that I see when people do this and and you know
02:25:56: Melissa's saying ted. Thank you for being so brave and speaking out against this cult.
02:26:01: I'm sorry, sir um So the the thing that you end up seeing with this
02:26:10: Is people guys will do this in cults where They if they see one member that's not willing to to give in to the the teachings
02:26:24: They they could see they're resistant Then they deem them not saved to get rid of them and the of the wife's buying into the you know
02:26:33: Drinking the kool -aid then she can stay I i've seen this in a in a another church where they excommunicated the the husband
02:26:42: And and told the wife that she wasn't allowed to leave the church Which sounds very similar to what you you went through if I can say something real quick, you know, i'm about that one time we were tammy and I were remodeling our kitchen uh at home and i'm, not the craftiest guy in the world, but we had another um
02:27:06: I was going to have another guy come over and help me do some wiring in my house and uh
02:27:13: I get a phone call from another who was a deacon at the time Tell telling me
02:27:20: Hey, this is so and so I just wanted to call you and let you know on behalf of the elders that we are no longer to um
02:27:29: How did he put it? More or less they are no longer going to help me So, what do you mean he says we're not going to Send guys over there to help you remodel your kitchen.
02:27:43: I said why Well because Excuse me.
02:27:49: You're not a member at grace fellowship church anymore. This is after I was Uh, whatever you want to call it
02:27:57: And I said well that doesn't make any sense He said ted Here's the deal if you want anything done at your house
02:28:07: Or need help with that kind of stuff tammy needs to come and ask me come and ask us I said well
02:28:15: As the leader of the home that's my job Yeah, but you're not you're not you're not the leader because You're not a member of this church and you're an unsaved man
02:28:26: And he hung up the phone with me that phone call was directed
02:28:37: By the elders of that church, I guarantee you Okay, let me let me ask you um because this this is
02:28:45: I mean displaying the isolationism and the exclusivity did You know, they're they're basically seeming it seems at least implying that You not being part of their church
02:28:58: You're not saved And if you come back then what you'd be saved You know you you then can they then could help you
02:29:07: It's you know, it isolates People so that they're only within The the organization
02:29:16: And what i'm seeing and hearing from you is is just showing this they they
02:29:22: They claim they have the exclusive truth. And once you leave you gotta You got everyone's got to keep away from you
02:29:29: And they isolate people isolated in this case is like your wife to stay in the church
02:29:36: Without you um this is this is the
02:29:42: The thing that we when I say that cultic practices, this is what we end up seeing
02:29:50: Um, you know, let me ask you ronda I want to go back to you for a bit to ask about the isolationism
02:29:59: I know you had some things you wanted to talk about that And one of the things also that i've seen because I know you've been there for a while Both you can may answer this but i'll start with ronda, you know, the idea it seems that once Not even you you're not even a member of gfc if you just attend gfc
02:30:18: It's like it seems like you're not allowed to leave without permission Is that was that an impression you had?
02:30:28: I would say well, I mean for me it would be speaking as a member but um, we were told um,
02:30:36: That that you don't get to join a church on your own you have to have approval to join and so you don't get to Um leave on your own.
02:30:48: You have to have approval to leave and um Approval was never offered that you need approval to join a church
02:30:59: Well, there's a there's a membership Because tony miyano
02:31:05: Didn't have that I mean tony miyano Asked whether he could go out to that church
02:31:13: And he asked it from his pastor phil johnson And phil didn't know about the church and was like if you want to go out there, you know, no, there was nothing stopping him but But then you know, he goes out there and tells that gives the story of you know, what happened the first experience out there and Phil told me that he said no you you shouldn't be there
02:31:36: So so therefore he pulled that that uh
02:31:42: You know if it if it was him giving permission he pulled the permission So by by the it sounds like by the teaching of this church
02:31:51: Tony miyano Should not be accepted into the congregation here because he never
02:31:58: Left grace community church properly I mean It's just i'm just trying to read this and understand they need to reconcile with the road
02:32:10: Yeah, they it sounds like tony needs to return to to grace community church and reconcile there because He didn't have permission to leave
02:32:20: And join the church the authority he was under You know, yeah and I I brought
02:32:26: I brought that up in one of the blogs that I wrote about that Specifically because the same standards don't apply to everybody.
02:32:33: There's there's an unequal Uh resistance, I just want to say really quick.
02:32:38: I just want to go back to ted real quick and ted I hope you're okay if I say this because I don't know whether there's any hope for this or not, but in some of our conversations this past week,
02:32:48: I think you know, if I had to guess there's still You know, you would still desire to be reconciled to your wife and you know
02:32:55: I don't know if there's ever any kind of an outside chance of that but there might be real counseling available to you and to her in Through all of these programs that you know, wherever she is in her life.
02:33:06: I don't know um, but you know, maybe maybe just there's an outside chance of that somewhere down the road and and I I thought
02:33:15: I should say it out loud in in the Odd event that she would happen to hear this that maybe she would have that desire somewhere along the line
02:33:22: But I just wanted to say that and i'm grateful for your testimony here tonight Thanks, brother. I appreciate that.
02:33:28: Yeah, I mean That's all in god's hands really and I have to Yeah, I mean if that was god's plan to have kim and i'd be reconciled then
02:33:41: I would be open and willing to do that and But I I am truly
02:33:51: Leaving that in god's hands because He he's the only one that can do that and and You know,
02:34:01: I just have to trust in that That's all I can do And you'll be i'll be honest with you
02:34:08: Kevin and jen and ronda, you know, tammy um, you don't know where she's at in her walking life right now, but She's a very lost soul
02:34:19: And I my heart breaks for her Because she has no desire to go to a church
02:34:26: None Why would she? You know, she's she's denounced jesus christ as her lord and savior because of the teaching she got and my point is
02:34:40: I pray for tammy every night that god would save her
02:34:49: That god would soften her heart and take out that heart of stone and put it in that heart of flesh And I do that not for my benefit
02:34:56: Yeah for her benefit Because kevin knows that tammy just went through a relationship and Moved our son and so on and so forth.
02:35:09: It didn't work out and now they're back in eldridge and That's a that's a very lost soul and my heart breaks for her in that in that Anyway, my point is
02:35:22: I do pray for tammy every night that god would soften her heart and and Adopt into his family, you know
02:35:32: You're you're talking that you're trusting in god's sovereignty even through this again i'm going to go back to this but When we were doing the show on the church of wells, there was a guy who came out of the church who
02:35:47: Said that he ended up just just trusting in god's sovereignty through it I want to play what tony said about that man because tony if you're listening, this is what you should be saying about ted
02:35:59: I was edified. I was encouraged by the way. He answered the last question, you know
02:36:04: Whether or not he regretted being part of the church of wells He said in some ways Yes But he trusts in the sovereignty of god and believed it was god's will for him to be there at that time
02:36:14: Because god is sovereign over everything and that god has now given him a testimony about that time that Hopefully will help others.
02:36:21: I thought that was a very biblical Answer if tony is going to be consistent ted
02:36:27: He should feel the same way toward you Because you you're trusting in god's sovereignty
02:36:34: It's all we can do That's yeah, and and if tony doesn't have the same attitude toward you as he had back then that that speaks you know to To what's happened with him
02:36:47: So One of the one of the disadvantages tony has i'm going to say this it's it is a disadvantage
02:36:55: Is because he's only been there a few years He doesn't know he has He doesn't have
02:37:01: Half he doesn't have a tenth of the knowledge that me and jen have that ronda has that that ted has
02:37:07: He doesn't know all these things and he gets one side of the story from mike If if something like this pops up now if he gets alerted that ted black has been talking
02:37:17: He's going to say who in the world is ted black and he's going to get you know, this this one side of the story
02:37:23: So tony is at a disadvantage. I will grant him that but see the thing is is he remains ignorant in his disadvantage of not knowing
02:37:31: Rather than coming to us and asking us these stories that we can tell him the full backdrop behind it
02:37:38: He won't do that. He has achieved full -blown cognitive dissonance on these matters and um
02:37:46: Yeah If I if I can just say real quick I started with kevin and i'm i might have sent you the email to andrew today about me reaching out to tony and Before I believe before tony was even going to grace fellowship church
02:38:01: And I was just trying to warn him of these things because I heard tony was Thought about going to grace fellowship church and mike sent me a very
02:38:10: Not so nice email back um Um saying how
02:38:15: I uh, more or less backstab mike and so on and so forth, but That just falls in what what what kevin was just saying, you know
02:38:25: Tony had tony's had no idea and I was trying to reach out to tony Not even knowing tony
02:38:33: But I wanted to give him warning And I was lambasted by mike who wasn't his pastor at the time
02:38:42: Yeah, yeah because my guess is he's he's trying to protect his his himself
02:38:49: I mean, that's it's damage control, right? That's really what it comes down to so um
02:38:57: I I want to ronda. I want to come back to you for a bit um
02:39:03: A question for you. Did you you know with the The situation you were in did you ever feel um
02:39:13: That mike All the the the sexual exploitation you're doing did you ever feel objectified
02:39:26: Um, I don't know that I would say that I felt that way necessarily um
02:39:34: No Um Okay You you had you had some more about isolationism you were going to bring up Right and and you know, we started down that path with um, the women not working outside of the home
02:39:48: I think that leads directly to some of that isolationism. That's one of the first steps you know,
02:39:55: I I quit a job and became a stay -at -home wife and mother and um
02:40:02: That that just begins that isolationism um without any outside contact um or limited outside contact
02:40:12: I guess I would say and then You know in their teaching they use matthew 10 34 through 37
02:40:18: Do not think that I have come to bring peace to to the earth I have not come to bring peace but a sword for i've come to set a man against his father and a daughter against her
02:40:26: Mother and a daughter -in -law against her mother -in -law and a person's enemies will be those of his own household Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me
02:40:34: And whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me And they would use that to say you ought not love your biological family
02:40:40: More than you love your brothers and sisters in christ more than you love your church family. And so if you um
02:40:48: Were to miss a church gathering because you were with a gathering of your biological family you would have to answer to that Um because you ought not miss a church gathering to spend time with your biological family because that would be loving
02:41:02: Your mother or father more than loving your church family more than loving god than they would um, they would say um, they also would um ask why would you desire to spend
02:41:16: Before you get to that. Um, okay You're saying that That they use the passage of hating your father and mother
02:41:25: To justify the abandonment of family for the church This was exactly
02:41:31: The issue that happened with church of wells. This is exactly what tony was calling out this exact behavior so so this the the reason why
02:41:41: I keep bringing this up folks is because I know there's so many people going but I love tony, but I love tony, but I love tony
02:41:47: Listen to the testimony listen to last week. This is exactly the very thing
02:41:53: That tony was against with the church of wells. It's the very thing what he was calling out this behavior
02:42:00: He he should be calling it out here and and you know, um I forget let me see if I could find where this was.
02:42:08: I think it was drew that yeah Drew drew hits the nail on the head here. He says i'm just gonna say it
02:42:14: Tony needs to man up and come on here and answer all this Tony it's more than just Or drew.
02:42:22: It's more than just tony that needs to mike has to we've put the questions out Anthony said that he would gave him all the questions that he would ask mike if mike came on And he told him he won't ask anything
02:42:35: Outside of those he keeps it to that list But the reality is mike won't answer for this tony won't answer for this
02:42:45: That should tell you enough So continue. Sorry if Let's say something about that real quick, uh,
02:42:55: I had that same experience, you know about isolation, uh, we we were leaving one sunday after um church
02:43:03: To go to my I believe it was my mother -in -law's birthday party and cal Actually blocked us from leaving the church and asked us where we were going asked me where we were going
02:43:15: And I told him we were going to my mother -in -law's birthday party Well, do you think that's wise to do?
02:43:23: You should stay here So and it just kind of tied into what you were talking about by isolation
02:43:31: Of course i'm standing there by myself my family's already left the building And uh, i'm trying to tell cal yeah, this is what we're going to do
02:43:43: I mean, so yeah Yeah, it's standard operating procedure to do that and um, you know that jen was just saying that the
02:43:57: The the isolation that comes between your biological families Is you know, you are you are really set up against them and every
02:44:06: I I can promise you down to a t every single one of those families has
02:44:12: Relationship issues with anybody that goes there It it will naturally occur because you know, it's just how they operate
02:44:22: Okay, so shelby Rhonda, can you continue? You're muted though Thank you,
02:44:32: I had a few more notes on the isolationism just you know, they they would question Why you would want to spend time with friends from outside the church?
02:44:42: Um At the at the worst your friends were unsaved or at best they belong to another church which
02:44:50: Obviously had poor teaching because it wasn't gfc And so why would you desire to spend time with friends outside of the church?
02:44:58: You should be desiring to Spend time with the people inside the church your brothers and sisters in christ
02:45:04: And so, you know and then in so doing because of some of their um Doctrines that they would teach people would have those conversations with friends or family members and it would automatically drive a wedge
02:45:16: And just further that isolationism. So, um That was just very common.
02:45:22: I would say and then um You know
02:45:29: The fifth characteristic i'm going to skip down to the fifth characteristic of a cult. Um, the harmfulness
02:45:36: Is probably the most challenging for me to speak on Um My daughter was struggling greatly.
02:45:44: She is now 17. So she was 15 at the time and grew up in that environment um
02:45:52: And she was once an exuberant um full of life child and she became um
02:46:01: Quite removed cold even angry
02:46:08: What I came to realize upon leaving Um Because her attitude toward me changed almost instantly the moment we started going to a new church where The gospel was preached with humility and love and gentleness and grace and she heard the love of god
02:46:27: Presented in that way in a way. She had never heard before and her attitude toward me changed almost immediately and I recognized that um she had
02:46:39: Not only did she resent me But she resented the god that she thought I was worshiping based on The impression she got from the people gfc
02:46:48: She admitted to me later that she was nearly suicidal while we were there because she felt such a sense of hopelessness um a sense of judgment and condemnation um and so The fact that she is able to now experience and and witness and sense
02:47:11: The love and grace of god and get to know more of who he really is is such a blessing um, another thing
02:47:18: I wanted to mention is um During my time at gfc
02:47:23: I mentioned that jade was um exuberant and full of life and um
02:47:29: I would say she kind of gets some of that from me. I have um a very enthusiastic personality and at times boisterous um and so I became stripped of that myself because um
02:47:45: I was convinced that my personality was not chaste. It was not discreet. It was not humble And so I became a shell of myself because My personality didn't didn't fit the mold
02:47:58: Of the women at gfc and what um what they would say god would have me to be and so Um, that's just a couple of examples of the harm um, and I think
02:48:09: I mentioned it earlier just that the number of people that they convinced that they were unsaved because those people would disagree or would challenge or Would desire to go elsewhere than they would they would convince them that they were not saved because they did not agree with their teaching
02:48:27: And so I think those are just examples of how harmful and damaging the doctrine Was there?
02:48:33: um So that that's all
02:48:38: I had on the harmfulness on that characteristic I do have other notes that speak to the 12 questions that um
02:48:48: Go for it. Okay. Um The question number one um
02:48:56: Is about do does mike meet regularly with women? Um I'm trying to look for those questions.
02:49:04: Do you meet with women alone or on a regular basis if I recall correctly? My regularly scheduled meetings were tuesdays at one o 'clock in the afternoon.
02:49:14: Um, so So wait, wait, so this was like a regular weekly yes
02:49:21: And did he have that with multiple women that he had set times? Yes Did he have that with the men?
02:49:28: I believe so. Okay, so he did meet with men regularly as well I believe so.
02:49:34: He didn't meet with my own husband. So I can't speak to that Okay, um, but maybe kevin could Uh, yeah that there was regularly scheduled meetings for men one guy who
02:49:48: Was one of my better friends in the church. He He was kind of in a it may probably still is kind of in a similar situation to ted where his wife had
02:49:58: Sort of let's just say favor like mike and her got a lot get along real well
02:50:04: And so she would sort of meet with him And then the husband would meet with mike.
02:50:10: I think the next day well Man, he'd just get beat up and you know As a man going into a meeting with mike it was either gonna you were gonna get beat up To some degree or on occasion it would just be kind of you know more of a fun meeting um, you know again,
02:50:28: I mean, I think that's kind of to some degree that that is a gaslighting technique as I mentioned earlier and and Where you you know, you don't go hard on them all the time, right?
02:50:39: Because then it's just it's just a constant beatdown. But yeah that the men would meet with him you know shepherding is a big part of his ministry and you know as I talked about in one of my blogs,
02:50:51: I think it might have been one of the earlier ones but The the shepherding movement of the 70s
02:50:57: Was a real big thing and I don't know how mike latched on to it But if you read up about the shepherding movement, it's pretty easy to find stuff on it
02:51:06: You'll see exactly how he operates. So yes men and women, but he absolutely hundred percent
02:51:13: Meets with women alone. I mean and I know he tried to downplay that with anthony. Yeah, that's the thing.
02:51:19: I mean, it's I'm trying to i'm trying to just gauge okay it's not that he just met with women because that would be more concerning but The fact that he meets with women alone is is concerning uh, especially with his background which we could have a clip we could play on that but but Rhonda just one will give you time to to finish up and then
02:51:38: I know we have one more person we have to get to I know we've gone late, but Okay, i'm going to try and go through them fairly quickly.
02:51:44: I'm nearing the end. Yeah Um number two, do you ask details about spousal intimacy, um the notes
02:51:51: I wrote for myself on that Discussions on intimacy absolutely happened.
02:51:56: Um, we were told the women were told that their husbands ought to be satiated Um, I know in at least one case, um, the wife was told how often she ought to be intimate with her husband
02:52:09: Um, I was asked how often I was asked if my husband was satiated
02:52:15: Um, I was told what he perceived to be the most biblical position um, and that Biblically, you know that because intimacy is about connection that your eyes ought to be open
02:52:31: I was also influenced by an older Titus 2 woman about pleasing my husband during that time of the month
02:52:42: Um, and so it was very common that those things were discussed Um another note that I have um
02:52:55: So numbers five and six, let me read what those are have you ever said that gfc is the only true church they did
02:53:03: Imply that there were no other biblical true churches in the quad cities um
02:53:09: And then do you believe the elders I already addressed number six Do you believe the elders have nearly a nearly unlimited authority and that they they did teach specifically that they there was no limit to their authority
02:53:20: Um number seven, have you said if someone owns a gun is in the military or police? They have premeditated murder in their hearts what
02:53:27: I recall it being said was that he doesn't know how someone could be a christian and a police officer or a soldier because when you sign
02:53:34: Up to be a police officer or soldier that implies a willingness to commit murder And that's that's along the lines of what
02:53:41: I recall being said. Yeah, let me let me actually play a clip of him Saying just that okay, and one thing for folks to understand
02:53:49: Well, i'm going to say that after I want to play this clip Officer, I don't see how
02:53:56: Could a christian become a soldier I don't see how So if we're talking about somebody who's already in that job and gets saved like this
02:54:06: I'm open for discussion about that. I think if I was a police officer that got saved One of the things I would do is ask for a desk job where I don't have to carry a gun
02:54:15: If I was a soldier I'd be done because I can't be a soldier I've already sworn to give that my life is property of the united states government
02:54:23: I've given my life to the government when i've given my life to christ. I can't do both
02:54:29: So I would I put me in jail. I i'm not i'm not going to go out and kill anyone
02:54:36: Because because because god's not telling me to go kill someone Some commanding officer who's ultimately led by our president
02:54:44: Is who's telling me to go kill someone and i'm not going to do that. So could a christ could a Soldier or a police officer become a christian, of course anyone can be saved
02:54:54: Could a christian become one of those things? I don't see how I don't see I can go to scripture and say yep. I want to become those things
02:55:01: Okay, so here's here's the thing Not every soldier has to kill somebody in fact
02:55:09: We know historically There was a soldier who was a seven -day adventist who refused
02:55:17: To carry a gun going to war I think it was in the vietnam war where he refused
02:55:26: He wasn't going to carry a guy if it was world war ii or vietnam and He ended up being someone that saved thousands or hundreds of lives without a gun so The the the fact that I mean, it's clear that he has said this
02:55:43: I mean, that's his own words and now maybe maybe maybe i'll be accused of slander by playing mike's own words.
02:55:49: Maybe Those are your words. Sorry Yeah, andrew, you know, let me comment just a little bit on this because i've been apart
02:55:56: I sat in that teaching session Whenever it was i'm sure um, you know this church
02:56:04: Uh has as their confession of faith the second london baptist confession of faith which provides for Christians to serve in government to serve as civil magistrates to serve
02:56:20: In the military um So, you know, they they have that as their confession of faith, but they cherry pick they pull those out
02:56:31: So they don't allow for that part to be in their confession so they've really you know, and and I don't know all the technicalities of the 1689 perhaps there's
02:56:41: Opportunities for you to pick and choose certain things. I really don't know that for sure But they do pick and choose and but but what we have to find grossly hypocritical is
02:56:53: Tony was saved tony was a sheriff's deputy for 20 years,
02:57:00: I believe I don't know how many years exactly but somewhere in there. So how do we justify all this and and Here's the other instance of cognitive dissonance.
02:57:10: Tony has set that aside Well, I mean it's easy to resolve that because tony is you know
02:57:16: Didn't know he was wrong and he's not you know, he he'd served 20 years. Not all of it. He was saved
02:57:21: I think it was seven years. He was he Seven of those years he got saved But they would just say well, he he didn't know it was wrong.
02:57:28: Now he does and now he could speak out against it so, um So I someone someone by the way is saying, uh is telling me it's hacksaw ridge
02:57:38: Um Desmond dos is is the name of the guy that so if you guys want to go search that maybe mike reed wants to go check that story out and realize that He knows about it that was that was the only
02:57:53: Um time he agreed that that would be okay. He gave that as an example Wow, okay
02:58:00: So ronda let you let you finish up real quick and then we're going to move on That's the bulk of my notes
02:58:06: I can be done and let the next person well i'm going to bring in shelby so I'm, just uh,
02:58:15: I know I I saw someone was walking away and didn't want to be on camera So I figured i'd let them walk away and uh
02:58:23: And that way whoever didn't want to be on camera wouldn't be seen so she'll be We're talking
02:58:31: Oh, there he is. He wants to be on camera Uh Introduce yourself and and talk a little bit about your story your your testimony
02:58:41: Uh, so just quickly my husband is a military. He's a chaplain in the army
02:58:47: He does not carry a gun. So I guess we could have been an exception to the rule Uh, we had opportunity to move here.
02:58:53: Um This was the first time we would not be serving in a chapel So therefore we looked for a church and we were a reformed folks.
02:59:00: So we found gfc Uh came on a wednesday night during one of their fellowship meals, uh, just felt warmly embraced we had
02:59:10: Furniture and goods to move into our home. They came the next week and they helped us Uh, my husband, uh just came to move us in and then he left to finish out about another month and a half
02:59:20: Back in new york. So I was here by myself and they kind of took me under their wing, especially the pastor's wife emily
02:59:26: And uh his mother So I enjoyed that aspect and this quick fellowship, uh, one of the ladies came over and brought me a plant and and I was like really excited about that until um,
02:59:41: I started listening to mike's teaching and was very disturbed with some of the things he was teaching
02:59:48: And the other uh thing that kind of bothered me, uh, just to let you know in the military
02:59:53: I've done a lot of bible studies with women i've taught Um been very much involved in women's ministry.
03:00:00: So the first time that I attended one of their uh women's bible studies
03:00:06: It was very odd to me, uh a few things number one They were all sitting and their children were all with them and kind of running around So it was very difficult for me to really like concentrate
03:00:18: I was so just like wow, this is kind of odd because you know, you think of women's ministry as being taught in a time for fellowship among the women so that was kind of odd to me, but The second thing was that I was odd to me that the elder was teaching
03:00:33: The women's bible study and then thirdly the third odd thing was that past the mike was sitting right in the corner like Overseeing it or something and that just kind of like struck me as weird
03:00:45: I've never after all the years that i've been involved in women's ministry. I've never had Uh any male sit in on our bible studies, um, because you you know
03:00:55: They're it felt like women are teaching women as tight as two women do, you know and so that was kind of odd to me, so The thing that really kind of started us
03:01:06: Myself was when he did his hebrews 10 sermon on You know that the willful sinning and that the church
03:01:15: And When he went to the verse that we're to provoke each other He just stopped there and didn't finish the verse
03:01:23: And so what he explained that was that there's we're supposed to be this basically the sin
03:01:29: Loving sin police of the congregation that we should let people know Lovingly quote unquote or that would be the loving thing to do is to you know
03:01:38: Make sure that we're into each other's life so much that we know each other's sin and then we can call each other on each other's sins and then he said because we as a church or I don't know if he said the church but we are our job is to keep the people saved
03:01:53: That are that we the church needs to save keep the people saved and that was just like a big red flag to me and then it just seemed like uh
03:02:03: The next few sermons were all about sin mortifying sin And then the last straw for us was in fact, we kind of joked our children came into their adult children and uh
03:02:14: Nick the elder got up and started preaching about sin and said something like well sin is um like smoking was a sin and and so Let me just back up a little bit.
03:02:27: I went to the pastor's house twice for fellowship meal with um Many of the some of the people and the one night that I was there.
03:02:36: Um I was after that sermon on hebrews 10 about willful sin And uh, so I challenged him on that because as jen and kevin know
03:02:46: I'm i'm not very submissive quiet woman when it comes to doctrine And I challenged him on that and we literally in front of 20 probably people that were there had a almost 30 40 minute discussion on Why you know, what are you talking about?
03:03:03: How can you what it where is grace god provides grace? We cannot apostasize, you know, and he was not an adversarial or anything
03:03:10: We just had this discussion but interestingly enough, uh marie I think her name is marie or maria.
03:03:16: Tony's wife was there not tony And she was the only one who chimed in because she brought up that virgin was a smoker
03:03:24: Because because what mike was saying that even coffee if it's idle
03:03:30: Is sin So it just showed to me that they that I just finally got it that they were using.
03:03:38: Um There any any they could they could categorize anything as sin and then use it against you and I saw this played out with um
03:03:48: A couple that had left have since left the church with the husband I was just making conversation with them and I said, uh, ask him about a salvation.
03:03:57: He goes. Well, I don't think i'm saved I'm not saved and I said why he says because I continued to send and later on I found out that it was a
03:04:05: Very serious thing that he was facing because he felt very depressed and even had suicidal Thoughts about that because they had basically told him
03:04:13: That he was not saved because of whatever sins had been in his was occurring presently in his life so All that being said my husband and I just began my husband went to question.
03:04:27: Um Them and the same thing happens that everybody's been saying is that uh instead of Addressing the issue and the teaching in the bible because my husband is a chaplain.
03:04:38: He's been a pastor He's he has multiple patches memorized and has you know preached and taught the bible instead of talking about the passage and what the passage meant they immediately went to the accusing him
03:04:53: And putting him in an interrogation mode just like you said instead of discussing the actual passage and so, um you know at that point we just kind of realized that this this was
03:05:06: It was like we we felt like uh, these were too many red flags and we didn't we didn't feel comfortable in this church so we
03:05:14: Left the church and immediately we got texts going Why are you where you at blah blah and we had we didn't know but apparently taking communion at that church without being a member
03:05:25: Was a big no -no. No one told us and Based on the fact that we actually took communion with the church members we were told that you know what, you know, we were like, uh,
03:05:36: It was very wrongful or sinful of us to Leave the church after we had actually had communion with them
03:05:42: Even though we weren't members and that they were trying to guilt that mike and other members It was not just mike.
03:05:48: It was cal even tony. Um, You know after my husband You might
03:05:53: I don't know if you heard of the broadcast but my husband and kevin composed a letter and sent it to all the churches explaining some of the
03:05:59: The heresies and the doctrines they were teaching And tony contacted my husband and my husband said yes
03:06:06: I'll be glad to talk with you and get with you and discuss my letter discuss these things but nothing So we felt like they were just constantly contacting us to do this fishing expedition to you know
03:06:16: Either draw us back in or or something. So that's just in a nutshell There were there was just little things here and there like I felt like the women were not happy I never felt like any besides emily the pastor's wife.
03:06:29: I never felt like any woman approached me and talked to me uh, one other incident that I did participate in Was one of the ladies in the church who was 40 years old pregnant.
03:06:39: I think she had four or five kids um Was wanting a vacation I believe is exactly what she was saying.
03:06:46: She said she wanted rest And so I was invited with another Person to go talk to her about that to minister to her.
03:06:54: I wasn't told exactly what we were going to say We're just going to minister to her. Well ended up that woman didn't go with me, but end up being tyler's wife
03:07:03: So we went there and basically what I gleaned from was that that we were there to tell her that she was being selfish for wanting uh to have any kind of vacation or rest
03:07:15: And and I made the comment like, you know, uh, she said why sometimes I feel angry
03:07:21: I said well, you know anger, you know Sometimes we do feel angry and then that's when I was stopped and I was told
03:07:27: That anger is a sin and you shouldn't tell her that it's okay to be angry She she kind of like berated me the the elder's wife
03:07:34: So again, I just felt like I experienced a little bit but being the kind of person I am again jennifer and jennifer can attest to this
03:07:43: Um, I don't I question things all the time. So I was like telling my husband
03:07:48: This is something's not right something that's quite wrong here and we just You know again, we didn't know until after we left the church the extent of all the other atrocities that were going on so, you know and I think for us, um, the lesson was, you know that we
03:08:06: I think they pray more in people who are young christians or people who desire to be good christians and really, um, maybe are not don't know their bible well enough to to use it to question because mike is like a
03:08:20: Whip when it comes to talking you when you discuss with him and that's kind of my forte too
03:08:26: We were back and forth back and forth back and forth But he he could just twirl you around his little finger and and convince you of something
03:08:34: And you have no recourse if you really don't know your bible you don't know your doctrines you don't know
03:08:40: You know all that stuff and I mean I can see how he can, you know be a manipulator in that area.
03:08:45: So anyhow, that's kind of my summary take of all this well,
03:08:53: I appreciate you, you know, I mean this is I I think out of all the shows i've i've well
03:09:00: I haven't done as many of them as anthony, but This is probably the most heartbreaking one Yes, it is
03:09:09: You know This really has kind of left me, uh speechless in some ways it's it's to hear all this
03:09:17: I I hope people are listening. This is the damage that a cult does to to people um
03:09:25: You know kevin, I know we want to wrap up. I want to give you a chance to you know Any anything you want to say to just to wrap up and then i'm going to have some closing comments well
03:09:40: I would say We've heard a lot of powerful testimony tonight
03:09:46: No, no one here has been coerced or coached or you know
03:09:54: Manipulated or strong -armed to come on here. They did it because they want this exposed
03:10:00: They've told their stories. I think every comment that i've seen the people that are listening to these testimonies.
03:10:07: They know they're genuine They know they're true and friends If you're listening to this still we have barely
03:10:17: Scratched the surface Of what we could bring out I mean i'm not and I am not
03:10:23: Joking, we have barely scratched the surface How many have we had on here tonight six people seven people?
03:10:32: uh including ken There's so many more And if you listen to the hurt you listen to the hurt that ted black presented you listen to the hurt that ronda and and And her sweet family jade and ronda is boisterous.
03:10:50: She's fun to be around But that was just smashed and You know, this is this is the pain that a place like this causes
03:11:01: And you know, I I hope that we've expressed that we love tony enough To tell him these things that he doesn't really know about all this stuff.
03:11:09: He's he's heard a side of it But again, he doesn't I want to say he does know it and he's participating in it
03:11:16: One of the strongest testimonies in one of kevin's blogs from um They did not become members
03:11:25: Was a testimony of a man and I think shelby just um shared a little bit of it, you know
03:11:31: Coming to doubt his salvation He was at the church on an evening and asked for prayer for someone and tony
03:11:40: Said how dare you how dare you when you don't even believe that the blood of christ covers your sins
03:11:47: And so he's participating in this and that caused great harm. He's become he's become them
03:11:54: And just as we did I mean We are are you go back and listen to us,
03:12:00: I mean our testimony is that we became Just like these men and would do their bidding their little minions and You've heard testimony of that that we were to to watch sin and to call people out that that was loving them
03:12:17: And I would say it is not it is not how jesus um Shares and um treats his people
03:12:26: Mike reed nick roland Tyler bokema the three elders of gfc need to repent
03:12:33: They need to step down from church ministry because they're unqualified and Get get themselves under sound teaching if they're if they're going if they if they claim to be christians and They that that place needs to close
03:12:51: Tony needs to go get under sound teaching move away from well, there's good churches in the quad cities
03:12:57: He can still have a home in the quad cities, but he needs to take himself off the street he has proven to himself now that because he lacks discernment in this area that he
03:13:10: Shouldn't be on the street preaching the gospel at least for a for a good extended period of time and he needs counseling uh, so That's not going to fly very well.
03:13:21: They won't they won't do that uh, but that's what needs to happen and and we're we're grieved we're saddened we we
03:13:30: We we loved these people at one time and we still do love them now, you know, the relationship is different because we've stood on the truth of what we believe is really going on there and You know if it was just us
03:13:44: Saying this it would be one thing but you know the amount of Solid biblically qualified people that recognize these issues there that keep saying it over and over again that um, you know it
03:13:58: It's time, you know, it's really time for them to end the charade of playing the church that they're doing there
03:14:04: So that would be my final words to them Yeah, and I mean john had said this
03:14:12: Uh earlier and he's you know, this has been so revealing How can anyone support that church or support tony?
03:14:20: And and that's a good question if there are people who are supporting tony financially you're supporting this church and Just just recognize that I mean the thing that i'm hearing from folks
03:14:34: Is so much of the focus was on sin If they use sin they weaponize your sin
03:14:41: Um the the statement that you know, I think it was shelby made that they need to keep people saved
03:14:49: The testimony that ted black had it's like mike reed acts as if he is god
03:14:55: He can determine sin. I think it was I think it was ted who said you know, like that's not your that's not your job
03:15:00: That's god's job to You know to call me to repentance Yeah, chris brown said that oh it's chris brown, okay.
03:15:08: Yeah, so this is the thing I mean I said this has been heartbreaking um
03:15:16: So what we what we had planned to do? With this show was and i'm going to bring pastor justin in um
03:15:25: Because we just need to see his you know basement every once in a while Here's what
03:15:32: I what I we planned to do was at this point to have uh ken and I After listening to this give give some assessment.
03:15:41: I'm going to give my assessment for folks to know How important this was for ken?
03:15:49: Today is ken's child's birthday They had things planned and in order to be here.
03:15:56: He had to rearrange for family Which we didn't ask him to do I didn't know that until he had done that but he just he felt this was so important That uh, he wanted to rearrange things, uh, however
03:16:10: He's gone right now and he's gone because one of his other children. Uh, Cut his foot open and he had to rush the child to the er so Here's what we're going to do uh
03:16:23: I will be dr. Silvestro is already traveling, uh down to Uh, well, he's in I think tennessee right now and he's making his way to uh
03:16:33: To north carolina and by next week, he will be with me in florida And actually he must be watching because he's just prayed so I pray that mike reed and his pastors repent and step down So anthony will not be available he and I will be in florida.
03:16:51: We're doing some ministry down there at some smaller churches and so Justin is going to be back next week.
03:16:59: We weren't planning to have a show, but we're going to Uh, and it's going to be justin and ken now whether kevin you come in you we can arrange to talk about that, but So ken wants to come in to be able to talk about some of the stuff.
03:17:13: He has he's done his own research as well And so what we're going to do to close out.
03:17:19: So so justin, you know I appreciate you stepping up because we didn't plan on that.
03:17:25: So thanks for for being willing to do a show next week. Absolutely Um, this has been heartbreaking justin
03:17:32: Uh, listen, I I gotta be honest with you. I've cried a couple of times just thinking about this. Um, you know one thing i'm going to say is a pastor is a position that god calls men to And he calls us to love
03:17:50: And to serve him And the body of christ and and i've said this before You can tell the love a person has for god by the love that they have for the congregation that god loves
03:18:04: You can tell How much love a person has for god by how much they love the congregation that god loves
03:18:10: And I want every one of you who've been through this to hear me God has poured out his special grace
03:18:17: I don't know you personally, but i'm just going to tell you that from what i've seen and heard God has poured out his special grace to allow you to endure suffering and hardship and the wickedness of my creed
03:18:31: And i'm going to tell you as a former police officer and a former corrections officer I saw many many people
03:18:40: That were seasoned officers get pulled into deception they they were pulled into to uh by very cunning men and women
03:18:55: Who would be able to get them to do things? They would never normally do and and make them
03:19:02: Make them Believe that it was the right thing to do and i'm talking seasoned officers
03:19:09: It's very easy to do and unless you are on your guard and as the scripture says
03:19:14: Unless you have that full armor of god and you're daily in the word and you're daily fighting
03:19:20: And struggling and and seeing sin for what it is. That's why paul Was so busy seeing sin and he would immediately stand against it
03:19:30: When it was false teaching or whatever peter's uh errors anything like that that quick and he didn't let anything because A little leaven leavens the whole lump
03:19:42: And I want to encourage every one of you if you don't have a pastor that loves you Please find one.
03:19:48: Please find one that loves you and loves god uh This is so heartbreaking.
03:19:54: I I tony Listen brother listen Get away from this
03:19:59: You you've spent your life as a police officer And you know what it is to be bound up in this deception of a swindler
03:20:08: Who can get you to do something? And and then holds it over you
03:20:14: And mike reed is that wolf and that man? I don't know him But i've listened to everything here and I can tell you on the account of two or three witnesses and then some
03:20:25: That you need to run and you need to get away from this and brother There are so many people that are that are praying for you.
03:20:32: Andrew said it to you Last week and for everyone to hear this If you need a place to run to we will help you
03:20:41: We will help you Get out of this mess I'm, sorry, but this is killing me
03:20:49: I can't believe that somebody and here's why my last thing i'm going to say I said it last week
03:20:55: There was a kid that came on here talking about how he was an atheist and he can't wait till we get rid of religion
03:21:01: We need righteousness Yeah, we need godly men and women that will stand up and and declare that these people are not
03:21:10: Pastors and they're not christians. They are the wolves and the false teachers that jesus warned about And if we don't have them
03:21:19: We will end up with more and more and more broken people who will run from the god that they say
03:21:26: That we know And that these false teachers are presenting That's exactly right
03:21:32: And we've got to run from them Thank you. Justin for expressing your heart.
03:21:37: I hope that I mean everyone is seeing Justin, I don't know if you saw the comments as we put them on screen. Everyone is saying
03:21:44: They've been crying throughout the whole show Yeah, um, there's i'll be honest folks.
03:21:49: There's a reason why i'm putting the big screen where you're seeing other people's faces so that you don't see me behind the scenes just This is crushing it's crushing this there's only six of the testimonies there's more there's more
03:22:07: You know and I got news for you, uh, you know for folks at gfc mike
03:22:13: If you think ignoring us will get us to stop You're wrong You're very wrong.
03:22:20: Um We're ramping up We we we're planning to until you repent
03:22:27: Uh answer our questions come on the show That's all you have to do come on the show and answer for your for your your beliefs
03:22:34: You refuse to do it. You can call us slanderers all you want But that's slander
03:22:41: Because what you're saying is not true You can make all the accusations to try to say we're such wicked evil people
03:22:52: But this is the damage you're doing to god's children You should be ashamed of yourself
03:23:00: You don't have the right to call yourself a shepherd when this is what you do to people in your flock you are a wolf
03:23:08: You devour the flocks for your own selfish sinful gain
03:23:14: I don't say that lightly. I don't understand at all in any way
03:23:23: How mike How tony could be in this church under mike? That Yeah, some have made the suggestion does it does it might get something on tony that he's afraid of and doesn't want out there you know,
03:23:38: I don't know but This is something tony, you know better You know better than this there are people that have warned you and all you're doing is turning a deaf ear to them
03:24:01: Think about what you said to those in the church of wells Remember the things you said and what you warned of there
03:24:09: Because now it's true of you tony This is true of you
03:24:18: And I know That more and more your friends are turning away Because they're coming to you and contacting
03:24:25: I know because they're saying to me they're contacting you're just turning a deaf ear to them And they're heartbroken
03:24:34: You know when we did this show in the church of wells I concluded that they were a cult I said last week that I was holding out
03:24:46: I held to four of the five The one I struggled with is the exclusivity
03:24:56: But I think the testimonies tonight have changed my mind listening to ted and and what he said
03:25:04: And The view that mike seems to have that he has authority that only god would have over someone
03:25:12: You know that that he would replace a husband in as an authority Only god could do that only god's the ultimate authority over of our husband and the family
03:25:23: I mean the headship issue doesn't go husband church Or church elders and then god it's husband and then god
03:25:32: And so I think that I I have to conclude unfortunately, and i'm not saying this lightly
03:25:41: That I I do think that they are very cultic or cult and you know the reality
03:25:52: And I said this last week, but I think mike reed and the elders there and the church there they owe
03:25:59: A gratitude and thanks to chuck o 'neill and kevin yonce Because had they not come out
03:26:07: And start exposing this stuff Looking at the trajectory that this church was on They would be full -blown cult
03:26:17: If it wasn't for the fact That they probably brought tony in thinking he would give them credibility
03:26:25: And all it did was reveal that people out of a love for tony would call out the sinful practices of this church
03:26:34: We've gotten some answers from multiple testimonies on some of the questions we've asked
03:26:40: And unfortunately, it seems that there's clear reason why Mike reed doesn't want to answer
03:26:47: Because he knows the answer makes him guilty The way we started the show the bombshell that we had at the end of last show the fact that he told tony
03:26:58: To back off of the church of wells because it could implicate gfc Shows that mike reed knows he's cultic he knows he's aware and he doesn't want to change
03:27:13: That that would say he's unsaved Now notice i'm not saying that because I have some spiritual gift and I have an ability to do this as a as a pastor
03:27:23: No It's based upon multiple eyewitness testimony
03:27:30: Of sinful behavior And the fact that you have a long period of time of a continued unrepentant sin
03:27:42: That that's what it'd be based upon it's the fruit That's how we we judge salvation.
03:27:48: We can't know another man's heart But I can only assess the fruit and the fruit that i'm seeing is sinful is prideful
03:27:56: Is something you need to repent of so we're going to continue with this next week,
03:28:03: I I I think that It's going to blow your mind when you hear
03:28:10: Ken because I know ken's been doing some research on this This has been as i've said before this has just been heartbreaking
03:28:20: This is what cults do to people I ask those that if you who are believers that have watched this and listened to this
03:28:29: You've heard the testimonies. Please be praying praying for for steven for chris for ronda for ted for shelby
03:28:37: Pray for their families pray for tammy That she might come and reconcile with ted
03:28:43: Be praying for these people be praying for the yonces for kevin and jen And you've heard how much damage this church has done will you will you commit
03:28:54: To be praying for them Then also, would you commit? to pray for Mike reed and the elders of gfc and tony miyano and the members of gfc
03:29:07: That god would reveal their sin to them And I don't mean the sin that is being held over them
03:29:14: I mean that the elders would repent of the pride of holding the sin over people when
03:29:23: I asked ken to come on and do the show One of the questions he asked me why do you want to do this?
03:29:30: What is your goal in doing this and I said very simple I love tony.
03:29:35: I want to see him come out of this I want to have a restored relationship with him but The real thing i'd like to see is that mike and these elders would repent
03:29:50: Recognize they're not qualified Step out of ministry and either get someone biblical
03:29:56: A biblical biblically qualified man to pastor this church and lead them in through a lot of healing
03:30:04: And mike needs to get under the good teaching Or just close the doors It needs to shut down My prayer
03:30:17: Uh all week has been that this show and last for the last week's show would be that we we would talk with love and grace and mercy for those who
03:30:28: Are suffering through this? And that we would still expose the truth
03:30:34: If you're in gfc Let me speak to you You've heard this several times
03:30:42: You can contact us Email us let us know we would be happy to help you
03:30:54: If you need Our email is info at striving for eternity dot org info at striving for eternity dot org
03:31:05: Contact me I'm already starting to counsel with one person The there may be some others
03:31:17: But we will help you if you need a place to go. We'll find one We'll do what we can to help you out
03:31:24: But I hope you hear the testimonies you heard tonight. You heard from six or seven people that were in your shoes
03:31:32: They found a way out Did you hear how people are rejoicing now?
03:31:38: Did you hear that from ronda? They're not held under the guilt and the weight of their sin that is being laid upon them and Pushed upon them for other men's sinful desires
03:31:52: No There's hope
03:31:57: There's hope for you Come out Come out from false teaching
03:32:04: Start to study the scriptures Biblically using proper hermeneutics
03:32:11: We'd be happy to try to help you in any way that we can to mike reed and tony miyano
03:32:21: You have an open invitation to come on here to defend your beliefs
03:32:28: If you believe we've been slandering like you like you claim And Mike has told me
03:32:37: Personally in email we've gone through it on the previous show that he called anthony a slander
03:32:44: And I told him that if he could not be specific with it And he couldn't support his claim then that was a lie
03:32:52: It's false and it's put out to damage anthony's reputation. That is the definition of slander you guys
03:33:05: As as one person said in the comments, I think I forget who it was You need to man up Tony be a man
03:33:14: Mike be a man Answer for what you believe Tony you go on the streets as as people will will will challenge you and run away and you'll say only a coward runs
03:33:28: You quote the scripture from proverbs tony
03:33:37: You and mike are running like cowards Trying to ignore
03:33:43: What people are bringing to you You guys got to man up Be men don't go attacking people.
03:33:51: Don't attack other people's character because you don't want to answer for your your beliefs And your church's positions
03:33:59: Don't hide behind that Man up and answer simple questions
03:34:05: You we've had so many witness testimonies here The evidence seems to be very much against you
03:34:17: In fact, the evidence may be better supported that biden could be president then you guys are not cults
03:34:24: I mean, it's it's staggering and you guys want to just sit quiet and think it's going to go away
03:34:33: I got news for you next week is not the last that you'll be hearing of it
03:34:39: We have several things planned We hope not to have to do it we keep trying to give time in between hoping that you guys would come to repentance
03:34:49: But do not think for a second that we'll back off Tony you should know better.
03:34:58: You should know you should know how we were with the church of wells until they basically got off the radar and Decided they weren't they were going to get off social media you guys want to You know shut down we'll be happy to say okay then that that'll be the end of it but until then
03:35:17: We're not we won't be doing this because you're doing harm to people This church is damaging people's lives and you heard it tonight
03:35:29: The only solution here is repentance from gfc That's what you need to do.
03:35:34: And if you don't Then we'll keep calling it out not that we want to But because it's necessary so With that we close