February 27, 2023 Show with Jerry Johnson on “One Man’s Journey from Conditional Salvation to the Perseverance and Preservation of the Saints”

Live from historic downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, home of founding father James Wilson, 19th century hymn writer

George Duffield, 19th century gospel minister George Norcross, and sports legend

Jim Thorpe, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,

Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

And now here's your host, Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet

Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Monday on this 27th day of February, 2023.

I thank all of you who prayed for my safe travels during my visit last week to Long Island, New York, my old stomping grounds where I was raised and lived until 2014 before relocating to Carlisle, Pennsylvania.

I attended the memorial tribute of a dear friend who went home to eternity with Christ, Bobby Lloyd, the founder and president of Long Island Citizens for Community Values.

He was also a pastor, and although Bobby and I had some theological differences, he was a

Pentecostal, he was a pastor in the assemblies of God, and I being a

Reformed Baptist, we definitely had our differences, but I still viewed him as one of the most godly men that I've met on Long Island while living there, and he had the courage to vehemently and vociferously and publicly renounce and warn against the presidential candidacy of Barack Obama.

Bobby was a black brother, and this caused a lot of anger in the black community where he lived, and many of the black pastors were very upset with him over that.

He was risking the financial or the loss of financial support for Long Island Citizens for Community Values, and I never asked him specifically if he did indeed lose a lot of financial support because of his position, but he was willing to lose it because it was more important for him, for the black pastors of Long Island, and any pastor for that matter, to be more concerned about rescuing children from slaughter in the abortion mills of Long Island than it was to elect our first black president, and I respect

Bobby very highly for that, and he has a fascinating testimony. He was a heroin dealer before coming to Christ, spent some time in prison.

It was supposed to be a life sentence under the Rockefeller law. He was released early by God's grace and mercy, and his best friend's sister, who was a

Christian, led him to Christ, and he wound up marrying that woman, Diane Lloyd, and they were married for over 40 years.

I ask for you folks to pray for Diane Lloyd and all of the survivors in Bobby's family who he left behind, and also pray for Long Island Citizens for Community Values, the organization he founded, that it continues to exist, and by the way, that organization is mainly in existence to shut down porn shops, strip clubs, and anything involved in sexual sin, shut those organizations down when they rise up in residential neighborhoods, and Bobby and Long Island Citizens for Community Values was so successful at doing that that Mayor Giuliani begged

Bobby to go to New York City and assist him with his cleanup of Times Square in Manhattan, which he did, and so he was a very well -known man with a very powerful presence on Long Island, and he loved

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, even though he knew, as we are doing today, I was often very critical of Pentecostalism, and he even would often say to me, keep doing what you're doing, brother, and he would call into the show with questions, and he would tell me how much he loved the show, and I said,

Bobby, you do know that I am often very critical of Pentecostalism, and he said, yes,

I know, brother, but I don't want you to change a thing, and he shared many of my concerns over what is going on in the name of Pentecostalism and the charismatic movement, so not all

Pentecostals and charismatics believe in everything that goes on under that umbrella, so just keep praying for the

Lloyd family and LICCV. But I also wanted to give a shout -out to all my friends out there in Long Island who made my stay there much more of a wonderful experience.

I want to thank my friend Brian McLaughlin of New Hyde Park Baptist Church.

I want to thank Jason Contino and his wife Christine of Harborview Christian Church in Port Jefferson.

I want to thank Mack Tomlinson of Providence Chapel in Denton, Texas, and the speakers at his conference which took place on Long Island, which is one of the reasons

I was there, and everybody who it would take me too long to thank name by name who made my stay there such a blessing.

Thank all of you, and I look forward to my return. But today, I'm thrilled to have back on the program an old friend,

Jerry Johnson, a Reformed Christian apologist, a documentarian, and producer of the successful DVD series

Amazing Grace, the History and Theology of Calvinism. Today, we're going to be discussing one man's journey from conditional salvation to the peace, security, and assurance of the perseverance and the preservation of the saints.

And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Shepherd's Iron Radio, Jerry Johnson. Thank you,

Chris. Before we get started, let me add something.

I know this guy Bobby went through. In 2012,

I wrote up a document, and I got 50 scholars to sign it, that Christians need to be careful about voting for Mitt Romney because they do not want to confuse the

Mormon gospel, which is really no gospel at all, with the Christian gospel. And that's all

I said. Just be careful. Make sure you make a distinction between the Christian gospel and the

Mormon gospel. And I cannot believe how many people got upset over that. Well, it's also interesting that even as a politician,

Mitt Romney turned out to be a fraud and is a lot more left -leaning than he pretends to be.

And I told people that. I said, you know what? This guy is Obama -lite. Yes.

That's all he is. He's Obama -lite. And people got mad at me. I voted for a third -party candidate because I just could not.

Of course, I wasn't going to vote for Barack Obama, but I also couldn't vote for Mitt Romney.

And I just couldn't do it with a clear conscience, you know? Amen. So I wrote up a document called

For the Sake of the Gospel. Your listeners might be able to find it online. Side note here, the most support

I got was from dispensational scholars. I thought that was really funny considering I had done a video on the dangers of dispensationalism.

So I thought that was funny. Well, this program today is going to deal primarily with your own testimony.

Yes, sir. When you became a Christian, you were not only a five -point Arminian. I don't know if you used that phrase or term.

No, I never did. I didn't even know what it meant. But that would be an accurate way of describing you because that is an accurate way.

Yes, sir. Now, tell us about that whole story.

In fact, why don't you start with your salvation to begin with, even though you've given your testimony before.

Go ahead. All right. What had happened was my wife was downstairs making dinner and we had like a one -month -old baby.

And I was upstairs playing with the baby. And I can remember looking at him and saying,

I can't be a father to this kid. I don't even know how I'm a kid myself. So for some reason,

I just started to pray. And it was like something had lifted off of my eyes.

I don't know how to describe it. And I went downstairs and I told my wife, I said, you know,

I want to start going to church. And she was like, oh, that's so nice.

White picket fence. Children playing, going to church will be the perfect nuclear family, you know.

And she realized very quickly I was serious.

I became a Christian before she did. And, of course, my parents had gone to a charismatic church.

And the only thing in our town was a Pentecostal church. It was actually Church of God Cleveland, Tennessee.

And, I mean, I love those people. They were great. Some of the most godly people

I have ever known. And, you know, there were things.

I will say this. I'm not saying it for a point of pride. But it is an actual fact.

I could not get enough of the word of God. I mean, within three months,

I had read all the New Testament and probably two -thirds of the Old Testament.

And I just couldn't get enough. And I was sitting with my pastor, a great man.

I still talk with him. He's a very godly man. And I will never forget, we were in our office, in his office.

Well, let me say this first. One of the things I heard from the pulpit was, if you die in your sins, you're going to go to hell.

So, you got to keep yourself righteous, you know. But we could have the most powerful faith and worship, tongues, fire, and prophecy sermon.

And if I walked out, little Susie was in front of me. And I say little now. I'm older. If Susie was in front of me, and she had a little sway in her hips, and I thought some impure thought.

Of course, I had read in Matthew chapter 5, where Christ said, if you look upon a woman with lust, you've already committed adultery.

Well, Susie has a little swing in her hips. I have a bad thought. I step out on the road.

I get hit by a Mack truck. You're going to die in your sins, and you're going to go to hell.

Well, it didn't take me much to figure that out. They said that, Chris, I don't know how many times.

If you die in your sins, you're going to go to hell. And the thing is, in my mind,

I couldn't stop sinning. And I can remember one day,

I was in the bathroom. I was looking at myself in the mirror, and I said, woe to God that I were back in Egypt.

I wish I had never heard about the gospel. I wish I'd never heard about Christ.

I wish I'd never heard about this, because I believed at that point that the only way that you are going to be saved is if you keep yourself clean after your salvation.

You know, Christ's sins or Christ's death paid for your sins up to the point of salvation, but after that, it was up to you.

And it was really a load too heavy to bear. I mean,

I hated it. I still went to church. I still love the Lord. I couldn't stop doing that.

But I kind of felt like Martin Luther, love God, sometimes I hate him.

And that was the thing. I always felt like I was being condemned. And I will never forget the day

I was in Dwayne's office, our senior pastor. And what had happened was

I had read a passage in Colossians, and I'm going to quote it for you.

And I'm going to do it from the King James version, because if it was good enough for Paul, it's good enough for me.

No, I learned everything in the King James. So I'm kind of used to quoting that.

But anyway, I read this passage and a thought hit my mind that had never hit my mind before.

But here's the passage. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together us with him, having forgiven you all trespasses?

And the thought that hit my mind was, how many of my sins were in the future when

Christ died on the cross? Every single one of them, all of them, past, present, future.

And I thought I had discovered something great. And I went to Dwayne, and I was sitting down talking with him.

And it was like every passage that the Lord was bringing back to my remembrance,

I was just spouting off. And bless his heart, Dwayne was just sitting in his office chair, and he was facing me, and he had his arms crossed.

And, you know, he looked at me and said, you sound like a Baptist. And a month later,

I was. I sound like a Baptist. So that is what started my journey.

And I'll make it real quick. I started reading Spurgeon sermons probably about six months later, and that kind of cemented the deal.

So that's how my reform journey started. Now, I don't want to give people the idea, because the doctrine of eternal security, if you watch the

Amazing Grace DVD, I was very careful to make sure that I wrote in there that reformed people do not believe the doctrine of eternal security, at least the way it's presented today.

And, you know, there was this belief that, you know, there was an old ditty, free from the law,

O blessed condition, we may sin as we please and still have remission. I do not believe that at all.

But what happened was, if you look at, was it

Philippians 1 .6, I'm going to quote it here. And this is something that really kind of resonated with me.

Being confident of this very thing. Notice that the apostle Paul says he wants you to be confident.

You need to be confident of it. It's sure it's solid. I mean, nothing should change your mind.

Being confident of this very thing that he, of course, we didn't begin the good work, but he did, which he hath begun a good work in you.

He will perform a lot of modern translations. I actually do like them better, but the best word there is complete.

In our day and age, he will bring it to completion until the day of Jesus Christ.

So it wasn't me that started it. It was God that started it. It was God, the Holy Spirit.

And he is going to bring it to completion until when the day or in the day of Jesus Christ.

So it's not up to me. He's the author and the finisher of my faith, not me.

So if I do sin, which I sin every day, that was the thing that got

Martin Luther was he sinned every day. That's not why he would spend hours and hours in the confessional.

His, his, uh, uh, what do you call them? Not contemporaries. Come on.

I'm looking for the colleagues, the other monks in the monastery. They thought he was a goldbreaker because he would be in the confessional for four, five, six hours.

He would confess everything. And he would walk out of the confessional and think, ah, now

I have absolution. And then he would remember once then he didn't confess. And then it would all start all over again.

And that's really what got him. And that's also kind of what got me.

And, and I do believe, and they wouldn't say it, but I do believe it's because they have a very low view of the atonement.

They don't understand it totally. But when Christ died, he died for all of our sins, past, present, and future.

I think it would probably good to, uh, step back a few steps and highlight some of the things that you said so that they are not misunderstood or forgotten by our listeners.

Uh, there are dear brethren who disagree with us on this issue of perseverance and preservation of the saints.

In fact, there are brethren who disagree with us on opposite sides of the theological spectrum.

You have those who believe you, that a truly regenerate, a truly born again

Christian can lose eternal life, can lose salvation, and wind up going to hell.

And you also have those on the other side of the spectrum who, in fact,

I would say are more dangerous in the body of Christ, even though they agree with us that a true

Christian cannot lose their salvation. They redefine what a true

Christian is. You have those that are guilty of the sin, the heresies of easy believism and cheap grace, who will say that a person, a sinner, is guaranteed eternal life just by reciting a prayer, going forward in an altar call, raising their hand at Bible camp, even if they're six years old.

Which, by the way, none of that is biblical. That is all made up. That was a

Charles Finney invention. And Finney was a Pelagius. He wasn't even

Arminian. Right. In fact, you even said, I never heard anybody say this before, but when

I interviewed you on Finney, you said something quite profound. You said, don't make the mistake of calling

Charles Finney a synergist. He was a monergist, but the wrong kind of monergist.

Yes. He gave all the glory to man, not God. Yeah. He's an anthropologist.

So he believes man is the author and finisher of his faith. Now, he never said that in proper words.

But if you read his theology, which is about the worst thing I've ever read, and it's funny.

I asked people. I had a guy when we came out with the DVD, The Case Against Charles D.

Finney. I had a guy write up or I'm sorry, a guy wrote up a review of it and he hadn't even watched it.

And I was like, you don't understand. I'm not saying Charles Finney was an Arminian. I believe there are many godly

Arminians out there. You know, I wish I could be as godly as they are, but I think they're wrong about this.

But Finney was a moralist through and through. He believed that man would initiate it and end it on his own.

He didn't need Christ. It was good to have Christ. But in the end, man could do it all on his own, which is what

Pelagius believed. Yes. So we want to reassure those listening that we, although we reject five point

Arminianism or the concept that a truly regenerate person can lose eternal life.

Eternal life is eternal. You can't lose eternal life. Right. And Chris, just to note, that is one thing

I told Brother DeWayne when we were sitting there. I quoted John 3, 16.

For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believeth in him shall not perish, but have eternal or everlasting life.

And I can remember saying, DeWayne, I have everlasting life now.

I have eternal life now. Not when

I die. You know, I've got it now. And I mean,

I don't know. I will tell you this. I want your listeners to hear because I want to go a little bit into the doctrine of eternal security, which

I believe is half of the doctrine. There's truth in it, but it's also mingled with a lot of leaven.

Yes. What I say when people use that phrase, eternal security, I say that is a true label, but an incomplete or deficient label.

It doesn't give the whole story. Yeah. It's like it's one side of the coin.

It's insufficient as a description. Yes, sir. That is correct. Now, do let me tell you this.

Years ago, I was debating an assembly of God pastor, funny enough, on this doctrine of perseverance of the saints.

And he said to me, because I use that phrase, I said, brother, do you believe every time

I sin? I mean, my wife has a cupcake and I covet the cupcake.

All right. That's a sin. Do you believe every time I sin that I am losing my salvation?

And he said, no. And I said, now, wait a minute, brother. If you're saying no, what about driving too fast in your car?

You're breaking the law. You're caught making or you're doing a sin. What if you go out and tie one on, you know, you drink too much.

And, of course, he didn't drink. So that didn't work. But what if you do anything else?

What if you rob a bank? You know, anything like that. What if you commit adultery?

What if you do something like that? If you are a true believer, because David committed adultery.

And I believe David showed himself to be a true believer. I believe it was wrong to do it.

But I believe he was a true believer because he came to repentance. And I think that is the main thing, if you will, that separates the believer from the non -believer.

The non -believer doesn't hear. He's living that lie, free from the law, oh, happy condition.

We may sin as we please and still have remission. And if you believe that, you're believing a doctrine straight from the gates of hell.

A doctrine of demons. But, you know, I can tell you,

I hate my sin. I hate it with every fiber of my being. You know, but the thing is,

I don't rely on myself. I rely on the perfect savior that I have.

And he's the one that is going to redeem me. Because it was God that started the good work in me.

And he's going to bring it to completion until the day of Christ. Not me. So I do want to be good.

I want to follow his law. But I know when I stumble, he's going to be there.

And see, the thing is, I have a sinful nature. And even though I have a new nature also, my flesh wars against my spirit.

And the apostle Paul pointed that out. You know, a wretched man that I am.

Who's going to save me from this body of flesh? Well, the answer is the Lord Jesus Christ.

He's going to save you. Amen. And we have to go to our first break right now. If anybody has a question for my guest,

Jerry Johnson, whether you agree with him, whether you disagree with him, whether you're just not sure, please send us an email to chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

That's C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. As always, give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside of the

USA. And only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

Let's say you are in a church that believes a truly regenerate born -again believer can lose his or her salvation.

And you have come to disagree with that opinion, and you don't want to publicly identify yourself quite yet at this point.

Perhaps this is a new discovery or a new belief for you. We would totally understand that you would not want to identify yourself.

In fact, you might even be a pastor who has come to disagree with your elders, with your own denomination.

Whatever the case may be, we understand that there are reasons why you would want to remain anonymous.

But, if you're just asking a general question on Scripture, on theology, on doctrine, please give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence.

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from Chris Arnzen at Iron Trump and Zion Radio. We are now back with Jerry Johnson.

We are talking about one man's journey from conditional salvation to the peace, security, and assurance of the perseverance and the preservation of the saints.

If you have a question, send it to ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. ChrisArnzen at gmail .com.

As always, give us your first name at least, your city and state, and country of residence. Before I go more deeply into the doctrine and the scriptural evidence for perseverance and preservation of the saints,

I was just curious, how did your fellow Pentecostals from the Church of God Cleveland, Tennessee denomination react to your adoption of perseverance and preservation of the saints?

I remember one guy, and he was kind of old at the time. We called him

Old Man Joe. That's what he liked to be called. Oh, as long as he liked to be called that.

He liked to be called Old Man Joe, and he was a real sweet man, godly man. And I can remember he said to me, this was after I had left the church, and he goes, you still do believe in the

Holy Spirit? And I was like flabbergasted. Of course I do.

But, I mean, that was the thing that I guess many of them really wanted to talk to me about.

Make sure I still believe in the Holy Spirit. Of course, what they meant was the charismatic gifts of the

Holy Spirit. So I wanted to go back.

You didn't have any further antagonism for this? No, not really. Because there are, as you probably know, there are

Christians who believe in the concept of conditional salvation that would vilify you as an absolute satanic heretic.

I mean, they will call it the once -saved -always -saved heresy. And, of course, while you and I believe in the truth that once you are truly saved, you are always saved, but unfortunately many people who use that slogan, once -saved -always -saved, what they mean by it is once you think you're saved, you always are truly saved.

Once you have walked down an aisle and prayed a prayer, you're now saved.

And, you know, the thing is, walking down an aisle, saying a prayer, that doesn't save you.

It's not a magic formula. It's just something that man invented.

And we already talked about Charles Finney invented that. But, I mean,

I'm sorry. Yeah, the thing is, before we get into that too much,

I wanted to go back to Colossians 2 .13 real quick. Remember I said, having forgiven you all trespasses.

And what had hit my mind was that the passage was in the future tense, having forgiven you.

And I remembered Revelation, what is it, 13 .8?

It talks about Christ being the lamb slain before the foundation of the world.

And that's when that hit me. You know, how many of my sins were in the future when

Christ died on the cross? Well, all of them. Because Christ died circa 33

AD. We don't actually know the date. And all of my sins, I wasn't born until 1965.

All of my sins were in the future. So, he already forgave me for all of my sins.

And I thought, you know, that was really great. Now, real quick, I want to talk about the doctrine that they call eternal security.

I told my wife this about a year ago. I said, you ever notice some of the most sinful people on Facebook, when they have a loved one die, and I don't say anything to them, but every one of them believes that they're going to be in heaven.

You're only going to be in heaven if you receive Christ as Lord and Savior. All right?

Wishing you could be in heaven or thinking God takes everybody to heaven, that's not biblical.

And so, when it comes to eternal security, see, the problem was, and I looked at it, when

I was debating this assembly, a God pastor, and he was correct in his analogy.

He said, suppose somebody gets saved, and they live for Christ for 20 years, they're always at their church, and we actually did this in Amazing Grace.

On the section on perseverance of the saints, we put this in there. And he said, and then they leave their wife for another woman, they backslide, they finally give up the faith, considering it was just a phase they went through, and a year ago, they died in a car accident.

Are you saying that this person is saved? I'm saying, I don't know.

Only God knows. I can't make that judgment. But, you know, if they were truly saved, and they might have been aggrieved of sin, that might have been the reason

God called them home. They might never have been saved. In fact, if you look at, what is it,

John 10? No. Well, there's a great verse in John 10 about this subject,

John 10, 28. Yeah, yeah, I wanted to get to that in a second. But look at Matthew 7, verse 21 through 23.

Jesus is speaking here to the disciples, and he says, Not everyone that saith unto me,

Lord, Lord, shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he that doveth. I can't even talk.

Doveth. That was probably because of the stroke.

I'll say does. Yeah, I'm going to quickly let my listeners know that my guest today, Jerry, suffered a stroke not long ago.

In fact, you can hear his conversation with me about the stroke by going to ironsharpensironradio .com

and typing in Jerry Johnson in the search engine. And he's also lost a considerable portion of his hearing.

So I just want to let our listeners know that. Yeah, I'll get to that in a second. But I will tell you,

Jesus goes on to say, Many will say to me on that day,

Lord, Lord. Now, notice they call him Lord. Have we not prophesied in thy name?

Have we not cast out demons in thy name? And in thy name done many wonderful works.

You know what they never said? They never pleaded the blood of Christ.

They pleaded their own efforts. And then he goes on to say, and then

I will profess to them. I never knew you depart from me. Ye workers of iniquity.

And I think that is really where the doctrine of eternal security, they really need to look at this.

I mean, hard, because that is not what they're confessing.

They're not confessing that Jesus is their Lord and Savior. They're not confessing the blood of Christ.

They're not saying that is sufficient for their sins. What they're doing is they're counting their own works.

Yes. And Jesus said he never knew them. He didn't say I knew you once and you left.

But we all pick up. We'll pick up where you left off because we have to go to our midway break right now. If you have a question, folks, please send it to Chris Arnsen at gmail .com.

Please be patient with us as the middle break in the show is always the longer break, because Grace Life Radio 90 .1

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Chris Arnsen at gmail .com. Don't go away. We'll be right back after these messages. James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here.

I'm very excited to announce that my longtime friend Chris Arnsen of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio and I are heading down to Atlanta, Georgia again for the

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Jerry Johnson on perseverance and preservation of the saints send us an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com

chrisarnson at gmail .com give us your first name at least city and state and country of residence Jerry I don't know if you had anything to add to what you were saying before we went to the break but if not perhaps we can examine some texts

I don't even remember what I was saying brother that's how quick it goes these days let me go to the very heart of what we're addressing

I think that our Arminian brethren and obviously there are many people who agree in part or in whole with evangelical

Arminianism but they never use that phrase they refuse to wear that as a title but those who reject the reformed understanding of perseverance and the preservation of the saints

I think very often the problem lies and you can agree or disagree with me the problem lies just as their problem in rejecting limited atonement or definite atonement or particular redemption they are more concerned over who is being died for in regard to the cross of Christ the humans involved in this equation they're more concerned about that than what

Christ has actually done and accomplished and 100 % finished on the cross and the same would go to what salvation really is what eternal life is for instance if we go to John 17 verses 2 and 3 just as you, meaning

God gave him authority over all mankind so that to all whom you have given him he may give eternal life and this eternal life that they may know you the only true

God and Jesus Christ whom you have sent they seem to be not understanding that if people receive eternal life the word eternal has a meaning it doesn't mean temporary or it doesn't mean theoretically eternal it means eternal so therefore something that is eternal cannot be broken or ended or shortened right and you know what's really interesting about that passage of course that's

Christ in priestly prayer but look how many times he says give, you gave they're mine

I mean is God the father going to take them away I mean no he's not so that is a very powerful passage and you have to remember

Christ was praying and he even says there I kept my word so do we think he was praying correctly

I do yes and everybody should and in fact even when we go to another classic passage in the scripture

John 10 28 I was hinting at it before let me start with 27 my sheep listen to my voice and I know them and they follow me and I give them eternal life and they will never perish and no one will snatch them out of my hand my father who has given them to me is greater than all and no one is able to snatch them out of the father's hand

I and the father are one it's like if you're really alright

Christ has them nobody can snatch them out of his hand and if you're a little thick let me get it to you my father who is greater than all nobody can snatch them out of his hand so it's kind of a double assurance there that you get and you understand it's

Christ and the father you're in their hands so nobody can snatch you out

I quoted this passage to Dwayne and he said well it doesn't say you can't snatch yourself out you can't jump out

I said Dwayne no one wouldn't that include me wouldn't include if I couldn't walk away if I wanted to I didn't

I hated my life at that point when I believed in conditional salvation but when

I realized that I was in Christ's hands that I was in the father's hands a calm a peace came over me that I can't even describe because I realized my salvation start now and future never depended on me it depended on God and the reason why no one can be snatched out of the father's hand my father who has given them to me is greater than all

I mean we who are of the elect have been given to Christ by the father so the whole concept of jumping out of the father's hand is ridiculous if the father gave us to Christ you know

I don't want to get too long into a discussion about reform theology the whole thing but I loved when

I interviewed Dr. R .C. Sproul he said something that actually made it into the

Amazing Grace documentary and he said I know of no other system of salvation that gives

God all the glory and I thought that was really great that he said that.

Amen in fact every Arminian every non -Calvinist every non -reformed

Christian will say that they will say oh I give

God all the glory but they don't logically and consistently do that and brother yeah

I will tell you this when I was an Arminian now of course I didn't understand the term

I didn't know it I've since then read the works of Arminius and you know he has some good points not on this but Arminius not everything he believed was wrong actually

I believe Arminius was a beautiful man you know he loved the Lord if you read his life story if you read his theology there are some things that are wrong but I mean there's probably things about my theology that are wrong so I don't require somebody to be a 100 % in agreement with me my wife doesn't even do that and we're fixing to have our 35th wedding anniversary well congratulations thank you yeah that's in about two weeks so 35 years but what

I was going to say is I don't require somebody to be and neither does

God's word require somebody to be a theologian before God saves them he saves you in your ignorance and I was very ignorant you know

I can't tell you how ignorant I was but as I read his word and as things started to come about he opened up a little bit more of my own understanding and that I greatly thank him for but the thing when

I realized that I could persevere in Christ it changed my whole outlook on things by the way let me just read real quick unless you want to add something brother well let me just in case

I forget to read this later don't forget what you were about to say but one of the the greatest influences upon those who reject perseverance and preservation of the saints is anecdotal stories or personal experiences they will say look

I had a pastor for 30 years the man was the most humble biblically literate and faithful man that I ever knew and the man out of the blue we found out that he was having an affair with another man let's say he was a homosexual he abandoned the faith he's an atheist now that's proof that you could lose your salvation but the thing is in 1st john 2 verse 19 it says they went out from us but they were not really of us for if they had been of us they would have remained with us but they went out so that it would be evident that they all are not of us it's a very simply explained situation no matter what we think we are seeing and experiencing our eyes and our minds are fooling us these people are doing a very good job of imitating a

Christian and when it no longer suited them to put on this charade they may not have even been conscious that it was a charade they just abandoned it and you could move on with what you were saying what

I was going to do is I'm going to read from the Westminster Confession it's chapter 17 and I just want to give people a definition of what we're talking about here so the

Westminster Westminster divines said this article 1 they whom

God has accepted in his beloved that's

Christ effectually called and sanctified by his spirit can neither nor finally fall away from the state of grace but shall persevere there into the end and be eternally saved and it goes down in I'm going to try to read it fast brother so forgive me if I slur my words article 3 nevertheless they may through the temptations of Satan and of the world the prevalence of corruption remaining in them and the neglect of the means of preservation fall into grievous sin and for a time continue therein whereby they incur

God's displeasure grieve his holy spirit come to be deprived of some measures of their grace and comforts and have their hearts hardened and their consciences wounded hurt and scandalized by others and bring temporal judgment upon themselves and I really think the

Westminster divines really hit the nail on the head with this one so I wanted to give people kind of a context of what we're talking about I want them to understand that what we're talking about is not eternal security that you can sin all you want and you know there's no consequences for that if you believe that you can walk down an aisle say a prayer and then live for the devil the rest of your life you're not saved

I'm sorry that is not the Bible and by the way we must make it clear to our listeners that not everybody who uses the term eternal security even

R .C. Sproul sometimes used it not everybody that uses that term believes in the deformed version of that where people can live like Satan unrepentantly forever until they die and still be deemed heaven bound regenerate people.

And see Chris this is actually what I was telling my wife about a year ago I sit there and I look on Facebook and I see our friends and some of them belong to the lodge that we belong to and I mean

I will see their mother died or their friend died or their sister or brother and I mean this person never went to church never read his word never did anything they you know were involved in all sorts of sin now

I ultimately do not know them but what I'm not going to do is I'm not going to extend the right hand of fellowship to them because I don't believe they're saved now maybe they are

I don't know that's up to God but if I go by his word they weren't they were never saved but they always write oh

I'm going to be up there in heaven with you before long well not if you don't receive

Christ as Lord and Savior you're not well we do have a listener and this listener chooses to be anonymous and he says

I disagree with my own church over the issue over which you are discussing

I am having a problem though with the repetition of 2

Peter chapter 2 verse 1 to oppose my view that Jesus only died for the elect and therefore if he died for them they will never lose their salvation the verse reads but false prophets also appeared among the people just as there will also be false teachers among you who will secretly introduce destructive heresies even denying the master who bought them bringing swift destruction upon themselves can you please explain this that is that is definitely the most problematic verse for a

Calvinist. Yeah we actually covered this in the Amazing Grace documentary and by the way just so people know it is online on YouTube and it's free so you can watch the whole thing all four hours of it but let me

I'm going to look this passage up real quick brother and while you're doing that I'm giving our listeners our email address again it's chrisarnson at gmail .com

chrisarnson at gmail .com gives the first name at least city and state and country of residence and while you're looking for it

I'll throw out what I remember R .C. Sproul's answer to this was he said that Peter was treating the people the false prophets and false teachers that were masquerading as Christians he was treating them according to their own profession they claimed that Christ died for them but they their behavior and teaching was denying the master who bought them according to their profession so in other words

Christ did not die for these people he was Peter was treating them or describing them according to the way they described themselves that Jesus died for them whether or not you accept that interpretation

I don't know I will tell you this the word Lord there is actually not the common word that's used in the

New Testament like a dictator which is often ascribed to the Lord Jesus and notice the

Lord Jesus is not mentioned in this passage and his atonement is not mentioned despotas is a word

I believe is used despotas yeah that is correct so it actually means creator it's the one who rules if you will it's where we get our

English word despot alright and then it says even denying the

Lord that bought them and the word bought there I actually do not think is a good translation but it kind of gives the idea that as the despot as the creator of all he owns them so Christ even owns the unbelievers of the unregenerate and so the

Lord that bought them is not talking about the Lord Jesus Christ that shed his blood for them but God who made them and owns them so in other words you say you're saying that you believe the superior

English translation would be even denying the creator who formed them or made them yes

I would ok so I would think that to me is a better understanding but that is what the unbelievers are doing so but I do want this brother or sister or whoever it is to realize that the word

Lord and the word bought are two different things that the Lord is the despot and bought them is created them owns them so that's what

I would say and we have another anonymous listener I had a feeling that this subject would evoke questions from anonymous people another anonymous person says how long of a period of time should we consider a person lost if they are living in rebellion and unrepentance that's a very good question because the bible doesn't say no it doesn't but at the same time don't you agree that a person while they are in the state of rebellion they should not comfort themselves thinking they are truly of the elect no

I would agree and the church should not either that is one reason I strongly believe in church discipline let's take something an analogy if you will sort of anecdotical if a person had gone to our church for ten years and you know they started robbing banks and we found out about it we would call them to repentance they need to stop doing that suppose they didn't and demand that they tithe as well no only kidding suppose they didn't so what we could do is we could actually bring them before the church acknowledge their sin and put them out of the church that means basically that we are not giving them assurance of the covenant community now they may be saved

I don't know but the thing is our church treats them like a mission field so we are not going to send the right hand of fellowship that doesn't mean we are not going to say hello to them in the grocery store but we are going to present the gospel to them because they still need the gospel now maybe they are saved maybe not we don't know we don't know but we have to treat them as if they are in danger of hell right and they should view themselves and they should view themselves that way and that's why when we bring somebody before the church and we excommunicate them now we are not excommunicating people because they put too much salt on their potatoes alright we are not excommunicating somebody because they don't believe that the pope is the king you know or the vicar of Christ or they don't like the

Miami Dolphins that's not the reason we are not doing something goofy like that it's if they reject the gospel and they are doing grievous sins we are doing that because we love them not because we hate them we feel sorry for them if anything because right now they are not in Christ they are not in the church they are not in the visible covenant community in fact

I think this is where it's important to emphasize the second description in our view very often reformed people will just refer to the perseverance of the saints but I think is equally if not more important to highlight the preservation of the saints the reason we persevere is that we are being preserved by God himself and that does not mean that we live sinlessly as John Wesley potentially believed people could achieve that obviously he was no

Calvinist but that when we fall into sin we don't remain there we don't wallow there we don't surrender to that we will rise up in repentance and live lives of obedience again not that that will ever be perfect obedience as you said every one of us sin every day in fact

John MacArthur once classically said if I could lose my salvation

I would that's the way I felt I really felt that way so I know what he's meaning the thing is when

I looked in that mirror in the bathroom and I said woe to God that I was back in Egypt I understood what

I meant why did you reveal yourself to me Lord you've made my life miserable you know and that was true just something else for people to understand

I've had a stroke you mentioned earlier I woke up Tuesday morning and this is something

I would appreciate everybody praying about I lost 90 % of my hearing in my right ear and so I got hearing aids in now or I couldn't hear anything you would sound like a big mumbled mess like one of Charlie Brown's parents or something so I will tell you this though everything that's happened to me

I'm kind of looking forward I'm really looking forward to eternity and I'm not saying that tongue in cheek

I'm glad that after I had the stroke I'm glad I'm alive but part of me the

Bible says to be absent from the body is to be with the Lord you know Paul said that or the writer of Hebrews I should say said that in Hebrews 9 27 or was it 9 22 always mix those two up but anyway it wouldn't have hurt my feelings at all to be with the

Lord right now so I've had all this stuff happen to me and I'm not gonna leave the

Lord because I know that this is temporary this is not my home so what do

I have to worry about what do I have to complain about I mean the Lord can do whatever He wants and if He wants to glorify

Himself through me let Him do it Amen and the text actually is 2

Corinthians 5 verse 8 which one to be absent from the body no

I thought it was Hebrews Hebrews I'm gonna look it up now you got me wondering

I'm losing my mind maybe we're both right we could be while you're looking that up I'm gonna have to go to the final break it's gonna be a lot briefer than the other breaks if you have a question send it in immediately because we're rapidly running out of time chrisarnson at gmail .com

chrisarnson at gmail .com don't go away we'll be right back James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here

I'm very excited to announce that my long time friend Chris Arnson of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio and I are heading down to Atlanta Georgia again for the

G3 National Conference that's Thursday September 21st through Saturday the 23rd on a theme that I've been preaching teaching writing about and defending in live public debates for most of my life the sovereignty of God I'll be joined on the speaking roster by Steve Lawson Bodhi Balcom Paul Washer Virgil Walker Scott Anuel and Josh Bice founder of G3 Ministries and there's more great news

Chris Arnson of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio can get you a 30 % discount off the registration fee go to g3 min .org

that's g3 min .org and enter promo code g3 i s i r that's g3 i s i r for the 30 % discount

Chris Arnson I look forward to seeing you all Thursday September 21st through Saturday the 23rd the

G3 National Conference in Atlanta Georgia on the sovereignty of God make sure you stop by the

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Exhibitor booth and say hi to Chris Arnson while you're there go to g3 min .org

and enter promo code g3 i s i r for your 30 % discount off the registration fee

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Chris Arnzen's family of advertisers to keep Iron Sharpens Iron radio on the air

If you love Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio, one of the best ways you can help keep the show on the air is by supporting our advertisers.

One such faithful advertiser who really believes in what Chris Hansen is doing is

Daniel P. Patafuco, serious injury lawyer and Christian apologist.

Dan is the president and founder of the Historical Bible Society. Their mission?

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Thanks for helping to keep Iron Sharpens Iron Radio on the air. Hello, my name is

Anthony Uvino, and I'm one of the pastors at Hope Reform Baptist Church in Corum, New York, and also the host of the reformrookie .com

website. I want you to know that if you enjoy listening to the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio show like I do, you can now find it on the

Apple's iTunes app by typing Iron Sharpens Iron Radio in the search bar. You no longer have to worry about missing a show or a special guest because you're in your car or still at work.

Just subscribe on the iTunes app and listen to the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio show at any time, day or night.

Please be sure to also give it a good review and pass it along to anyone who would benefit from the teaching and the many solidly reformed guests that Chris Arnzen has on the show.

Truth is so hard to come by these days, so don't waste your time with fluff or fake news.

Subscribe to the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio podcast right now. And while you're at it, you can also sign up for the reformrookie .com

podcast and visit our website and the YouTube page. We are dedicated to teaching Christian theology from a

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Doctrines of Grace to the Olivet Discourse and the Book of Leviticus, the Reform Rookie podcast and YouTube channel is sure to have something to offer everyone seeking

Biblical truth. And finally, if you're looking to worship in a Reformed church that holds to the 1689

London Baptist Confession of Faith, please join us at Hope Reformed Baptist Church in Corham, New York.

Again, I'm Pastor Anthony Invidio, and thanks for listening. As host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, I frequently get requests from listeners for church recommendations.

A church I've been strongly recommending as far back as the 1980s is Grace Covenant Baptist Church in Flemington, New Jersey, pastored by Alan Dunn.

Grace Covenant Baptist Church believes it's God's prerogative to determine how he shall be worshiped and how he shall be represented in the world.

They believe churches need to turn to the Bible to discover what to include in worship and how to worship

God in spirit and truth. Grace Covenant Baptist Church endeavors to maintain a

God -centered focus. Reading, preaching, and hearing the Word of God, singing psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs, baptism, and communion are the scriptural elements of their corporate worship, performed with faith, joy, and sobriety.

Discover more about Grace Covenant Baptist Church in Flemington, New Jersey at gcbcnj .squarespace

.com. That's gcbcnj .squarespace .com.

Or call them at 908 -996 -7654. That's 908 -996 -7654.

Tell Pastor Dunn that you heard about Grace Covenant Baptist Church on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. This is

Pastor Bill Sasso, Grace Church at Franklin, here in the beautiful state of Tennessee.

Our congregation is one of a growing number of churches who love and support

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio financially. Grace Church at Franklin is an independent, autonomous body of believers which strives to clearly declare the whole counsel of God as revealed in Scripture through the person and work of our

Lord Jesus Christ. And of course, the end for which we strive is the glory of God.

If you live near Franklin, Tennessee, and Franklin is just south of Nashville, maybe 10 minutes, or you are visiting this area, or you have friends and loved ones nearby, we hope you will join us some

Lord's Day in worshiping our God and Savior. Please feel free to contact me if you have more questions about Grace Church at Franklin.

Our website is gracechurchatfranklin .org. That's gracechurchatfranklin .org.

This is Pastor Bill Sasso wishing you all the richest blessings of our

Sovereign Lord, God, Savior, and King, Jesus Christ, today and always.

Puritan Reformed is a Bible -believing, kingdom -building, devil -fighting church. We are devoted to upholding the apostolic doctrine and practice preserved in Scripture alone.

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Hi, I'm Buzz Taylor. Chris Arnson of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio has had a longtime partnership with our friends at CVBBS, which stands for Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service.

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James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here. If you've watched my Dividing Line webcast often enough, you know

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Welcome back. I just want to quickly remind our listeners, if you are a man in ministry leadership, you are invited to the

Iron Sherpa and Zion Radio free pastor's luncheon. This will be held Thursday, April 13th, 11 a .m.

to 2 p .m. at Church of the Living Christ in Loisville, Pennsylvania, featuring guest speakers Dr.

William Webster and David T. King. Absolutely free of charge, and not only will you have a free meal and hear these speakers for free, everybody attending will receive a heavy sack of free, brand -new books, personally selected by me from major publishers all over the

United States and the United Kingdom. The three days following that, Dr. Webster and Pastor King will be involved in a three -day

Bible conference that's also absolutely free at a different church, Grace Bible Fellowship Church in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, and it will be on the theme,

The Gospel, Removed by Rome, Rescued by the Reformers, and Rejected by Modern Evangelicals.

If you want more details on all of these events, send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com,

chrisarnson at gmail .com, and put luncheon and conference in the subject line.

Jerry Johnson, I would like you to have uninterrupted about three minutes to summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today.

All right, I've got three things, actually. So I wanted to say, you were right, it is 2

Corinthians 5 -8. I don't admit I'm wrong often.

The passage in Hebrews 9 -27 is appointed unto all men once to die, and then comes to judgment.

And of course, I don't fear the judgment because I have Christ on my side.

Second thing I did want to say is, I read Bill Webster's book 20 years ago,

The Church of Rome at the Bar of History. I read that thing, and I was like, man,

I have got to meet this guy. And I met him, and we struck up a friendship.

He is a great guy. I did hear that his wife passed away. Please tell Bill hello from me.

I will. All right. And I really wanted to leave your listeners with this.

And this comes from Jude chapter 24. I'm sorry, chapter. There are no chapters.

Verse 24 and 25. And this is what Jude says when he's signing off.

He says, now unto him that is able to keep you from falling and to present you thoughtless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy to the only wise

God our Savior. Be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and forevermore.

Amen. Amen. Hallelujah. Well, I want to thank you so much for being a superb guest, as you always are,

Jerry. I look forward to your frequent return to the program. In fact, I will email you a calendar of dates that are available for you to come back.

I want to thank everybody who listened, especially those who took the time to write in questions. And I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater

Savior than you are a sinner. Yes. Amen. And I look forward to hearing from my listeners, as always, tomorrow on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

And we are going to be featuring a friend of Jerry Johnson, Zach Sainz, and I may be mispronouncing that.

No, that's correct. And he is going to be discussing his ministry to bikers.

Yeah. And real quick, the first time I met Zach, I was like, this guy's a

Christian? I mean, he's wearing, you know, a Harley Davidson cut in a shirt.

And he looked like something you wouldn't bring home to mama. And he was the nicest guy

I had ever met. Amen. Well, I look forward to the conversation tomorrow. God bless you all. Thank you, sir.