February 27, 2023 Show with Jerry Johnson on “One Man’s Journey from Conditional Salvation to the Perseverance and Preservation of the Saints”

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Introduction and the Call to Hear the Word of God

Live from historic downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, home of founding father James Wilson, 19th century hymn writer George Duffield, 19th century gospel minister George Norcross, and sports legend Jim Thorpe, it's Iron Sharpens Iron.

This is a radio platform in which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today. Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better. It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com. This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Monday on this 27th day of February, 2023.

I thank all of you who prayed for my safe travels during my visit last week to Long Island, New York, my old stomping grounds where I was raised and lived until 2014 before relocating to Carlisle, Pennsylvania.

I attended the memorial tribute of a dear friend who went home to eternity with Christ, Bobby Lloyd, the founder and president of Long Island Citizens for Community Values. He was also a pastor, and although Bobby and I had some theological differences, he was a Pentecostal, he was a pastor in the assemblies of God, and I being a Reformed Baptist, we definitely had our differences, but I still viewed him as one of the most godly men that I met on Long Island while living there, and he had the courage to vehemently and vociferously and publicly renounce and warn against the presidential candidacy of Barack Obama.

Bobby was a black brother, and this caused a lot of anger in the black community where he lived, and many of the black pastors were very upset with him over that. He was risking the financial or the loss of financial support for Long Island Citizens for Community Values, and I never asked him specifically if he did indeed lose a lot of financial support because of his position, but he was willing to lose it because it was more important for him, for the black pastors of Long Island, and any pastor for that matter, to be more concerned about rescuing children from slaughter in the abortion mills of Long Island than it was to elect our first black president, and I respect Bobby very highly for that, and he has a fascinating testimony.

He was a heroin dealer before coming to Christ, spent some time in prison. It was supposed to be a life sentence under the Rockefeller Law. He was released early by God's grace and mercy, and his best friend's sister, who was a Christian, led him to Christ, and he wound up marrying that woman, Diane Lloyd, and they were married for over 40 years.

I ask for you folks to pray for Diane Lloyd and all of the survivors in Bobby's family who he left behind, and also pray for Long Island Citizens for Community Values, the organization he founded, that it continues to exist, and by the way, that organization is mainly in existence to shut down porn shops, strip clubs, and anything involved in sexual sin, shut those organizations down when they rise up in residential neighborhoods, and Bobby and Long Island Citizens for Community Values was so successful at doing that that Mayor Giuliani begged Bobby to go to New York City and assist him with his cleanup of Times Square in Manhattan, which he did, and so he was a very well-known man with a very powerful presence on Long Island, and he loved Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, even though he knew, as we are doing today, I was often very critical of Pentecostalism, and he even would often say to me, keep doing what you're doing, brother, and he would call into the show with questions, and he would tell me how much he loved the show, and I said, Bobby, you do know that I am often very critical of Pentecostalism, and he said, yes, I know, brother, but I don't want you to change a thing, and he shared many of my concerns over what is going on in the name of Pentecostalism and the charismatic movement, so not all Pentecostals and charismatics believe in everything that goes on under that umbrella, but so just keep praying for the Lloyd family and LICCV.

But I also wanted to give a shout-out to all my friends out there in Long Island who made my stay there much more of a wonderful experience. I want to thank my friend Brian McLaughlin of New Hyde Park Baptist Church.

I want to thank Jason Contino and his wife Christine of Harborview Christian Church in Port Jefferson. I want to thank Mac Tomlinson of Providence Chapel in Denton, Texas, and the speakers at his conference which took place on Long Island, which is one of the reasons I was there, and everybody who it would take me too long to thank name by name who made my stay there such a blessing.

Thank all of you, and I look forward to my return. But today I'm thrilled to have back on the program an old friend, Jerry Johnson, a Reformed Christian apologist, a documentarian, and producer of the successful DVD series Amazing Grace, the History and Theology of Calvinism.

Today we're going to be discussing one man's journey from conditional salvation to the peace, security, and assurance of the perseverance and the preservation of the saints. And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Shepard's Iron Radio, Jerry Johnson.

Jerry Johnson on the Gospel, Mormonism, and His Early Reformed Awakening

Thank you, Chris. Before we get started, let me add something. I know this guy Bobby went through. In 2012, I wrote up a document, and I got 50 scholars to sign it, that Christians need to be careful about voting permit Romney because they do not want to confuse the Mormon gospel, which is really no gospel at all, with the Christian gospel.

And that's all I said. Just be careful. Make sure you make a distinction between the Christian gospel and the Mormon gospel. And I cannot believe how many people got upset over that.

Well, it's also interesting that even as a politician, Mitt Romney turned out to be a fraud and is a lot more left-leaning than he pretends to be.

And I told people that. I said, you know what? This guy is Obama-lite.

Yes.

That's all he is, is Obama-lite. And people got mad at me. I voted for a third-party candidate because I just could not. Of course, I wasn't going to vote for Barack Obama, but I also couldn't vote for Mitt Romney.

And I just couldn't do it with a clear conscience.

Amen.

I wrote up a document called For the Sake of the Gospel. Your listeners might be able to find it online. Side note here. The most support I got was from dispensational scholars. I thought that was really funny considering I had done a video on the dangers of dispensationalism.

So I thought that was funny.

Well, this program today is going to deal primarily with your own testimony.

Yes, sir.

When you became a Christian, you were not only a five-point Arminian. I don't know if you used that phrase or term.

No, I never did. I didn't even know what it meant.

But that would be an accurate way of describing you because that is an accurate way to describe most Pentecostals, which you were. Now, tell us about that whole story. In fact, why don't you start with your salvation to begin with, even though you've given your testimony before.

Go ahead.

All right. What had happened was my wife was downstairs making dinner, and we had like a one-month-old baby. And I was upstairs playing with the baby, and I can remember looking at him and saying, I can't be a father to this kid.

I don't even know how I'm a kid myself. So for some reason, I just started to pray. And it was like something had lifted off of my eyes. I don't know how to describe it. And I went downstairs, and I told my wife, I said, you know, I want to start going to church.

And she was like, oh, that's so nice. White picket fence. Children playing. Going to church will be the perfect nuclear family, you know. And she realized very quickly I was serious. I became a Christian before she did.

And, of course, my parents had gone to a charismatic church, and the only thing in our town was a Pentecostal church. It was actually Church of God Cleveland, Tennessee. And, I mean, I love those people.

They were great, some of the most godly people I have ever known. And, you know, there were things, I will say this, and I'm not saying it for a point of pride, but it is an actual fact. I could not get enough of the Word of God.

I mean, within three months, I had read all the New Testament and probably two-thirds of the Old Testament. And I just couldn't get enough. And I was sitting with my pastor, a great man. I still talk with him.

He's a very godly man. And I will never forget, we were in our office, in his office. Well, let me say this first. One of the things I heard from the pulpit was if you die in your sins, you're going to go to hell.

So you got to keep yourself righteous, you know. But we could have the most powerful faith and worship, tongues, fire, and prophecy sermon. And if I walked out, little Susie was in front of me, and I say little now, I'm older.

If Susie was in front of me, and she had a little sway in her hips, and I thought some impure thought. Of course, I had read in Matthew, chapter 5, where Christ said, if you look upon a woman with lust, you've already committed adultery.

Well, Susie has a little swing in her hips. I have a bad thought. I step out on the road. I get hit by a Mack truck. You're going to die in your sins, and you're going to go to hell. It didn't take me much to figure that out.

They said that, Chris, I don't know how many times. If you die in your sins, you're going to go to hell. And the thing is, in my mind, I couldn't stop sinning. And I can remember one day, I was in the bathroom.

I was looking at myself in the mirror, and I said, woe to God that I were back in Egypt. I wish I had never heard about the gospel. I wish I'd never heard about Christ. I wish I'd never heard about this.

Because I believed at that point that the only way that you are going to be saved is if you keep yourself clean after your salvation. You know, Christ's sins or Christ's death paid for your sins up to the point of salvation.

But after that, it was up to you. And it was really a load too heavy to bear. I mean, I hated it. I still went to church. I still love the Lord. I couldn't stop doing that. But I kind of felt like Martin Luther, love God, sometimes I hate him.

And that was the thing. I always felt like I was being condemned. And I will never forget the day I was in Dwayne's office, our senior pastor. And what had happened was I had read a passage in Colossians.

And I'm going to quote it for you. And I'm going to do it from the King James Version. Because if it was good enough for Paul, it's good enough for me. No, I learned everything in the King James. So I'm kind of used to quoting that.

But anyway, I read this passage. And a thought hit my mind that had never hit my mind before. But here's the passage. And the thought that hit my mind was, how many of my sins were in the future when Christ died on the cross?

Every single one of them. All of them. Past, present, future. And I thought I had discovered something great. And I went to Dwayne. And I was sitting down talking with him. And it was like every passage that the Lord was bringing back to my remembrance, I was just spouting off.

And bless his heart, Dwayne was just sitting in his office chair. And he was facing me. And he had his arms crossed. And, you know, he looked at me and said, you sound like a Baptist. And lo and behold, a month later, I was.

I sound like a Baptist. So that is what started my journey. And I'll make it real quick. I started reading Spurgeon sermons probably about six months later. And that kind of cemented the deal. So that's how my reform journey started.

Now, I don't want to give people the idea, because the doctrine of eternal security, if you watch the Amazing Grace DVD, I was very careful to make sure that I wrote in there that reformed people do not believe the doctrine of eternal security, at least the way it's presented today.

And, you know, there was this belief that, you know, there was an old ditty, free from the law, O blessed condition, we may sin as we please and still have remission. I do not believe that at all. But what happened was, if you look at, was it Philippians 1 .6?

I'm going to quote it here. And this is something that really kind of resonated with me. Being confident of this very thing. Notice that the apostle Paul says he wants you to be confident. You need to be confident of it.

It's sure, it's solid. I mean, nothing should change your mind. Being confident of this very thing that he, of course, we didn't begin the good work, but he did, which he hath begun a good work in you.

He will perform a lot of modern translations. I actually do like them better, but the best word there is complete in our day and age. He will bring it to completion until the day of Jesus Christ. So it wasn't me that started it.

It was God that started it. It was God, the Holy Spirit, and he is going to bring it to completion until, or in the day of Jesus Christ. So it's not up to me. He's the author and the finisher of my faith, not me.

So if I do sin, which I sin every day, that was the thing that got Martin Luther was he sinned every day. That's not why he would spend hours and hours in the confessional. His, what do you call them?

Not contemporaries. Come on. I'm looking for the work.

Colleagues.

The other monks in the monastery, they thought he was a goldbreaker because he would be in the confessional for four, five, six hours. He would confess everything and he would walk out of the confessional and think, ah, now I have absolution.

And then he would remember once then he didn't confess. And then it would all start all over again. And that's really what got him. And that's also kind of what got me. And I do believe, and they wouldn't say it, but I do believe it's because they have a very low view of the atonement.

They don't understand it totally. But when Christ died, he died for all of our sins, past, present, and future.

The Difference Between Cheap Grace and Perseverance of the Saints

I think it would probably good to step back a few steps and highlight some of the things that you said so that they are not misunderstood or forgotten by our listeners. There are dear brethren who disagree with us on this issue of perseverance and preservation of the saints.

In fact, there are brethren who disagree with us on opposite sides of the theological spectrum. You have those who believe that a truly regenerate, a truly born-again Christian can lose eternal life, can lose salvation, and wind up going to hell.

And you also have those on the other side of the spectrum who, in fact, I would say are more dangerous in the body of Christ. Even though they agree with us that a true Christian cannot lose their salvation, they redefine what a true Christian is.

You will have those that are guilty of the sin, the heresies of easy believism and cheap grace, who will say that a person, a sinner, is guaranteed eternal life just by reciting a prayer, going forward in an altar call, raising their hand at Bible camp even if they're six years old.

Which, by the way, none of that is biblical. That is all made up. That was a Charles Finney invention. And Finney was a Pelagius. He wasn't even Arminian.

Right. In fact, you even said, I never heard anybody say this before, but when I interviewed you on Finney, you said something quite profound. You said, don't make the mistake of calling Charles Finney a synergist.

He was a monergist, but the wrong kind of monergist.

Yes.

He gave all the glory to man, not God.

Yeah, he's an anthroponergist. So he believes man is the author and finisher of his faith. Now, he never said that in proper words. But if you read his theology, which is about the worst thing I've ever read, and it's funny, I asked people, I had a guy, when we came out with the DVD, The Case Against Charles D. Finney, I had a guy write up, or I'm sorry, a guy wrote up a review of it, and he hadn't even watched it.

And I was like, you don't understand. I'm not saying Charles Finney was an Arminian. I believe there are many godly Arminians out there. I wish I could be as godly as they are, but I think they're wrong about this.

But Finney was a moralist through and through. He believed that man would initiate it and end it on his own. He didn't need Christ. It was good to have Christ, but in the end, man could do it all on his own, which is what Pelagius believed.

Yes, so we want to reassure those listening that although we reject five-point Arminianism or the concept that a truly regenerate person can lose eternal life, eternal life is eternal. You can't lose eternal life.

Right, and Chris, just a note. That is one thing I told Brother DeWayne when we were sitting there. I quoted John 3, 16. For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whosoever believeth in him shall not perish but have eternal or everlasting life.

And I can remember saying, DeWayne, I have everlasting life now. I have eternal life now. Not when I die. You know, I've got it now. And I mean, I don't know. I will tell you this. I want your listeners to hear because I want to go a little bit into the doctrine of eternal security, which I believe is half of the doctrine.

There's truth in it, but it's also mingled with a lot of leaven.

Yes, when people use that phrase, eternal security, I say that is a true label, but an incomplete or deficient label. It doesn't give the whole story.

Yeah, it's like it's one side of the coin.

It's insufficient as a description.

Yes, sir. That is correct. Now, do let me tell you this. Years ago, I was debating on assembly of God pastor, funny enough, on this doctrine of perseverance of the saints. And he said to me, because I use that phrase, I said, brother, do you believe every time I sin?

I mean, my wife has a cupcake and I covet the cupcake. All right, that's a sin. Do you believe every time I sin that I am losing my salvation? And he said, no. And I said, now, wait a minute, brother.

If you're saying no, what about driving too fast in your car? You're breaking the law. You're caught making or you're doing a sin. What if you go out and tie one on? You drink too much. And of course he didn't drink, so that didn't work.

But what if you do anything else? What if you rob a bank? You know, anything like that? What if you commit adultery? What if you do something like that? If you are a true believer, because David committed adultery, and I believe David showed himself to be a true believer.

I believe it was wrong to do it, but I believe he was a true believer because he came to repentance. And I think that is the main thing, if you will, that separates the believer from the non-believer.

The non-believer doesn't hear. He's living that lie, free from the law, oh, happy condition. We may sin as we please and still have remission. If you believe that, you're believing a doctrine straight from the gates of hell, a doctrine of demons.

But, you know, I can tell you, I hate my sin. I hate it with every fiber of my being, you know? But the thing is, I don't rely on myself. I rely on the perfect savior that I have, and he's the one that is gonna redeem me because it was God that started the good work in me, and he's gonna bring it to completion until the day of Christ, not me.

So I do wanna be good. I wanna follow his law. But I know when I stumble, he's gonna be there. And see, the thing is, I have a sinful nature, and even though I have a new nature also, my flesh wars against my spirit, and the apostle Paul pointed that out, you know, a wretched man that I am.

Who's gonna save me from this body of flesh? Well, the answer is the Lord Jesus Christ. He's gonna save you.

Amen. And we have to go to our first break right now. If anybody has a question for my guest, Jerry Johnson, whether you agree with him, whether you disagree with him, whether you're just not sure, please send us an email to chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

That's C-H-R-I-S-A-R-N-Z-E-N at gmail .com. As always, give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence, if you live outside of the USA, and only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

Let's say you are in a church that believes a truly regenerate, born-again believer can lose his or her salvation, and you have come to disagree with that opinion, and you don't want to publicly identify yourself quite yet at this point.

Perhaps this is a new discovery or a new belief for you. We would totally understand that you would not want to identify yourself. In fact, you might even be a pastor who has come to disagree with your elders, with your own denomination.

Whatever the case may be, we understand that there are reasons why you would want to remain anonymous. But if you're just asking a general question on Scripture, on theology, on doctrine, please give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence.

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And always mention that you heard about royaldiadem .com from Chris Arnzen at Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. We are now back with Jerry Johnson. We are talking about one man's journey from conditional salvation to the peace, security, and assurance of the perseverance and the preservation of the saints.

If you have a question, send it to ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. As always, give us your first name at least, your city and state, and country of residence. Before I go more deeply into the doctrine and the scriptural evidence for it, for perseverance and preservation of the saints, I was just curious how did your fellow Pentecostals from the Church of God Cleveland, Tennessee denomination react to your adoption of perseverance and preservation of the saints?