Attitudes In Reformed Theology

Alpha & Omega Ministries

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June 1, 2002

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00:15: Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line
00:21: The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence
00:30: Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed
00:35: Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation. If you'd like to talk with dr.
00:41: White call now It's 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll -free across the
00:46: United States It's one eight six six eight five four six seven six three and now with today's topic.
00:51: Here is James white And indeed good afternoon. Welcome to the dividing line and we are live today from Phoenix, Arizona Where I don't know what it is today how hot it is
01:03: I turned off my little weather bug thingamabob II but it's been awfully hot of late and there's a
01:10: Tropical storm or hurricane or something down there in the Pacific that's thrown a few clouds our direction which has increased the
01:19: Humidity around here and it's just miserable at the moment But I can't complain because I could be amphibian live in New Orleans where you know even bother buying a dryer for your clothes because it really doesn't accomplish anything anyways and That well,
01:33: I'm not gonna touch that one They go any farther with that because you can say a lot about that particular area of the country Anyhow, we sort of have open phones today at eight seven seven seven five three thirty three forty one eight seven seven seven five three thirty three forty one have a few interesting things to mention
01:50: Yes, I we realize we need to redo that introduction with the new number but that does sort of bring me to the first thing to discuss and That is
02:00: Well, we mentioned it too briefly, I guess toward the end of program last week But we we found out that we need to be
02:09: Rearranging how we do our webcasting in the future It seems that the folks that are webcasting this the moment not the folks who are responsible for it, but the provider we're using really isn't interested in our business any longer and they are
02:24: Cranking up the rates, you know, we're not talking 5 % here. We're talking like more than 500 % and Just want to get rid of us small people,
02:32: I guess I don't know But we're really 595 % Is the actual increase in the amount of and is that is that taking into consideration?
02:42: The fewer connections that we would have to or is that not to know it's not even taking that So given that it's less than half the connections.
02:49: That's over a thousand percent When you figure it out per connections, so it's just absolutely ridiculous.
02:55: They don't want our business anymore. They're trying to get rid of us Are they are they? Based and maybe
03:01: Salt Lake City or something like that along those lines one -third of the connections. Oh, there you go,
03:07: New York well, maybe you know, maybe guidos talking to the people you I don't know, but anyways, we have a problem coming up at the end of this month and Don't know where to do about it.
03:21: Yeah, we have some folks looking around and if we can find something that is Workable then that's what we'll do.
03:32: But Right now I don't know what there is people are talking about Something called shoutcast on anything about that There are other things that are out there, but I'm not interested in doing anything
03:47: It's just going to be you know, 10 20 people and we can't record it. We can't put
03:53: In archive form things like that, I'll just probably be
03:59: Getting my Saturdays back if we cannot find something else to do I would rather not do that, but I'll be really
04:07: I'll be very honest with you. It is hard to do a
04:13: Program which we have called a dead cast we've had to do them in the past, but you could you could tell
04:19: I think when we did and That is It's difficult to just sit here and talk for 90 minutes and you might be saying you seem to do it fairly often
04:31: But I still have the recognition that there are people listening at this particular point in time there's the interaction with the chat room and I know most people listen to us via archive
04:44: But still it's much easier when you're speaking and you're seeing some sort of reaction Even if it's delayed you see some of it in the chat channel and and you get phone calls and you can talk to people and things like that a dead cast
04:58: What can you do, I mean, I suppose we could announce a topic beforehand, but the problem is when people call in Let's say we you you know
05:08: The topic is a lot of people could be asking the same question unless they're on hold when their question is asked
05:14: Then you just you're repeating yourself over and over again So you don't really accomplish a whole lot that way.
05:19: So I don't know Don't know what the future holds if you're listening to this on Archive format in the future and there are many more dividing lines listed then we found something to do
05:34: If you are listening to archive format and everything ends the end of June We didn't find anything else to do so I don't know what's gonna happen
05:42: But I've we have gotten many many many many emails from people saying look, you know
05:49: Keep going. We love to listen to the dividing line so on and so forth and I'd love to you know, continue to do it but there it has to be worthwhile it has to be worth the investment of an hour and a half for the time and the funds and Things like that to get to people and and look those who listen to us.
06:08: No, we are a very very very Small ministry and We don't we're not in the situation of the large ministries that can afford to go to The big outlets and you know, there there are ministries that bring in literally millions of dollars.
06:25: Trust me. We do not so you know, we have to be wise to what we've got and do the best that we can with what we have and so, you know unless someone buys us our own server and The software to do things.
06:42: I just don't see how there's going to be much we can do about being dependent upon finding usable internet service providers other than the one that Someone someone's trying to get this program off straight gate.
06:56: We're not on straight gate, but again, he's not listening that so anyways It is interesting to watch
07:03: Watch folks talking about that. So anyways, we'll we'll see what what turns up We have a couple people who who know what is involved in doing webcasting looking around seeing what's out there and seeing what we can afford we had found a really good rate have done it for quite some time and So we'll we'll see what what the
07:24: Lord brings up eight seven seven seven five three three three forty one is the current phone number anyways for us right now and Even that changed recently, but it is toll -free.
07:36: Anyways, eight seven seven seven five three thirty three Forty -one we have a lot of things we can be talking about the past few weeks.
07:46: We've been talking about primarily issues relating to Dave Hunt's new book and Interesting seeing the stuff
07:56: That is coming in from the website on that particular subject I'm very much looking forward over the next couple of weeks as soon as I'm just about done with a chapter that I need to have turned in probably by Monday at the latest and Once I'm done with that then
08:13: I really need to get started on the the point by point count the point counterpoint debate book with mr.
08:21: Hunt and I Have seven topics that I will be writing on He has seven topics that he will be writing on doing a presentation and we interact on the basis of that presentation
08:33: So it'll be 14 total topics covered in that book in a specific obviously the specific word limitations for each section and So that's going to be very interesting to see how that works
08:46: I've never done a book quite in that format before and we don't have a whole lot of time to do it in So it's gonna be pretty intense here during June and then in July on Long Island most of the time
08:58: Atlanta the first weekend and then Long Island, I think head up there the 7th if I recall correctly up to a
09:05: Long Island and there till the 29th I believe and So a little over three weeks there on Long Island not totally certain everything would be doing tried to arrange debate on Islam With Hamza Abdul Malik was not able to get that worked out
09:22: Basically, I I asked mr. Malik to I sort of wanted to continue the debate
09:28: We had had before those of you who saw it or listened to it know that in essence
09:35: We Basically the debate boiled down to mr.
09:41: Malik's admission the New Testament does teach the deity of Christ It's just that he feels New Testament has been corrupted that all the passages that teach the deity of Christ were inserted at a later
09:50: Point, so I wanted to sort of continue that and say, okay Give us some examples and let's get specific
09:56: I had specifically brought up the common Muslim claim That in John 14 and John 16 the term paraclete which
10:05: Christians have always understood referred to the Holy Spirit of God Actually was was a different term that referred to the exalted one and that this was in reference to Muhammad and I found
10:18: I've found that claim just laughable. I've dealt with this before on the dividing line and Yet, it's constantly repeated.
10:27: So I just wanted to find specific examples of where mr. Malik believes the
10:33: New Testament has been Finalized and I'm sorry finalized has been corrupted and Debate those issues and Mr.
10:44: Malik just simply would not commit himself to any particular passage or any particular corruption He just wanted me to defend in a general sense the inspiration of Scripture Well, all that means is he can just throw out alleged contradiction after alleged contradiction after alleged contradiction doesn't have to be specific doesn't have to give any type of of Scholarly Documentary basis or anything like that and Obviously it is far easier to use the scattergun approach and to make allegations
11:16: Than it is to respond to them. I have said many many times it takes far less time to state an error or to present an error than it does to refute an error and So It would be just silly to to say anything to say, okay, let's just go ahead and do a general debate on Inspiration or something like that.
11:41: No, I want something specific and mr. Malik wouldn't do it. So we're not gonna be able to do that and therefore right now the only debate that I know that I'm going to be doing in July will be with Patrick Madrid on the subject of the veneration of Saints the communion of Saints is what he will undoubtedly be calling it and So that's what we'll be looking at doing at that particular point in time
12:03: Some of you may be interested. We have been attempting to arrange a debate With dr.
12:09: Bernard the leading theologian of the UPCI right now he is in essence saying that unless he has a
12:20: UPCI pastor specifically request him to come to a particular area due to An attack or a misrepresentation of the
12:30: UPCI in his area that he doesn't do debates But if he has a UPCI pastor ask that then maybe he will
12:37: I don't know if that's going to end up Developing to something or not.
12:43: I just right now that's still still up in the air We will see what what happens about it in the future.
12:49: So there's certainly much going on There's lots of possibilities yet in the future
12:55: As far as debates ago this fall, I know I'm gonna be down in Texas at some point and Some of you may be saying well, you know, what about the debate with Dave Hunt?
13:03: Well right now obviously Dave has a reason for saying let's not debate moment because we are working on the book my
13:13: Suggestion is going to be once the book is completed that the greatest way to advertise the book and to accompany the book would be to package it with a
13:30: Videotape or maybe a couple of videotapes of the two authors interacting live on the subject of the of the book itself,
13:42: I think that would just be wonderful and Therefore I really really hope that that's exactly what will work out
13:51: In in terms of a live debate between myself and mr. Hunt If it does not there are others that I would be certainly willing to to engage
14:01: I think the fellow who thinks that Dave Hunt's book is a
14:08: Is a The how was how is it put? Let me get my copy here This may well be the most important book written in the 21st century
14:17: Yes, that was the line in the endorsement from Tim LaHaye, and I I'd like to first of all ask mr.
14:24: LaHaye, what did you mean by that? Because it can be taken two different ways I think probably
14:32: What's being asked or what's being asserted there actually is the 21st century this this book is so important that in the next 98 years
14:45: This one will at the end of 98 years this one will still be in in the top 10 one of the most important books
14:52: That has been written in the 21st century which given the number of errors per page and and just a complete lack of background the subject either means that the 21st century is going to be really dismal as far as theological writing goes
15:16: Or possibly mr. LaHaye has really grossly overestimated this particular work one of the two
15:23: The other possibility when you think about it is is that since the 21st century is only a year and a half old
15:32: That that maybe that just means this isn't most important book ever written, but I'd really don't think that's probably what he was thinking
15:38: But if mr. LaHaye of of the left behind fame Would like to debate this subject because he seems to think that Calvinism is downright to Calvinism comes perilously close to blasphemy
15:51: And that is why I congratulate Dave Hunt for writing this excellent clarification the doctrine that has its roots More in Greek humanism from where it originated that it does in Scripture isn't it fascinating that that Greek humanism
16:05: Always shared as its fundamental element the concept of free will outside of the
16:11: Stoics All the rest of them free will was the biggest thing and that is the center point of Dave Hunt's theology
16:18: Well, you know that's just something you know just to point out, but anyways, maybe mr. LaHaye would like to do a debate there are other interesting folks that did this as well at Chuck Smith There is an interesting interesting possibility and Chuck Missler that Anybody would put a
16:34: Chuck Missler endorsement the back of their book is got a problem But I don't think Joe Chambers is gonna do it.
16:40: We've we've tried to Get him to do stuff, and he won't he won't do it, but And then this one is what makes me chuckle
16:47: I wasn't gonna talk about this, but under exceptional endorsements Bob Wilkin PhD founder executive director
16:53: Gracie Evangelical Society a fascinating expose of modern five -point Calvinism dot dot dot dot dot
16:58: I Especially enjoyed the section on perseverance and assurance of salvation You know why the main person quoted in that section is
17:06: Bob Wilkin ah yeah, okay? It'd be like my writing a you know someone writes a book
17:11: And they they quote extensively from the Potter's freedom in one chapter And I say I particularly like the chapter where he quoted me all the time just Just seems for sort of funny, but anyways oh
17:26: My oh my oh my oh my by the way, I don't know if I mentioned this, but I did put up another article other than my
17:33: Open letter to Dave it's at what love is this calm and it is on the subject of Dave Hunt's charge of elitism
17:48: That is that is the be -all and end -all response that Dave has developed by the way If you demonstrate, he's wrong when he tries to translate the
17:56: Greek language you're an elitist And if you demonstrate, he's wrong in his historical information then you're an elitist and To be called an elitist is a bad thing very very very bad and someone just asked if Joe Chambers is reformed
18:14: No he Joe Chambers is as reformed as Ignatius Loyola, okay, how's that? Joe Chambers for those of you wondering was on the it was one of the three
18:26: King James only guys on The John Ankerberg show that we did back in 1995 he was the one defending
18:33: Gail Ripplinger and remember Gail Ripplinger five points of Calvinism the s
18:39: There's the how did she get what was the s? S of the Satanic kiss
18:45: I remember that part, but I'm trying to remember Well, how'd she make the connect anyways it was really really weird and So no he's he's a
18:54: King James only sort of interesting fellow way out there on In his own, and that's where the debate with the dr.
19:01: Piper which I have not heard Recently Loyola was reformed out good. Yeah MDH is good with computers, but not so hot with his historical theologians,
19:12: I guess but anyways I don't even know what I'm talking about there I've put I put the charge of elitism paper up on the website and more and more of those papers will be going up there
19:23: I know that Vivid blue in channel is getting close to having his done even though It takes him forever to get that final draft.
19:31: He finishes it and then he goes through about 14 drafts Before before he finally gets to the last one, but those things could be up there on the website
19:39: Don't forget to hit it every once a while and see what new things have been added to what love is this dot -com
19:48: And you know I should actually open up a message window here find out. I thought I saw No, no, no one's calling.
19:54: I'm gonna start singing pretty soon eight seven seven seven five three thirty three forty one is the phone number eight seven seven seven five three
20:02: Thirty three forty one someone just asked in the chat channel any Calvinists in here
20:10: Warren will sing. Oh good Actually, I like the people who listen to this program
20:17: Wouldn't put him through that that'd be a very bad thing Actually, I have no way of knowing you know
20:22: Warren may have a voice like a nightingale He just doesn't ever actually tell anybody about it
20:28: I've tried a few times to to to you know sort of lean over and listen, but But it just doesn't happen so Anyways, don't worry.
20:35: I'm not gonna sing yet anyways Eight seven seven seven five three three three forty one I the main topic
20:41: I was thinking about discussing a little bit today While you all are rushing to the phones as I know all of you will be doing because you're all such good and kind folks and have so many things that you would like to talk about and ask questions about and Fill up our time or you know hey
20:58: We just might have a short program today or something like that more like a voice like a deaf mute
21:06: You didn't expect me to just read that on the on the air. Did you oh did I forget the cough button? Let me reach up there And there don't have that little delay thing yet, do we we don't need a delay thing
21:15: I guess but because we're delayed anyhow, but that's not really gonna make any difference, but anyhow
21:21: Thing I was gonna talk about a little bit today I was thinking about this, and I I think it's good every once in a while What if the world was that?
21:33: Any discussion about dividing line showtimes must go to apologetics or you will have to help us in our physics experiment of trajectory?
21:41: And weight ratios. Thank you. I get it. I get it in other words You'll be kicked if you continuously ask what we're gonna be talking about and see this is this is a topic
21:52: This is the topic today is religious stuff. That's whenever anybody asks me what you could talk about as a religious stuff and That's normally not what they're asking though, and I know that by the way.
22:01: I do know that that's not what they're asking about but Yeah, CDS could call in and ask about the
22:07: JEDP theory or the or the Johnny Depp theory that would work, too I think they're about equally valid personally, but anyways what
22:15: I was thinking about talking about I was torn between two things I really was
22:23: And you might want to make sure it might my pooters up here. I was torn between two things we could have a scintillating discussion a true scintillating discussion of the musical background of Star Wars We really could do that and the new theme the the new theme the love theme from from the attack of the clones
22:46: That's that's really cool. That's oh My goodness we are really getting good when we can actually bring up music behind ourselves that is really cool
22:54: But did you notice how haunting that and how dark that that love theme is because you know who
23:01: Anakin is I? hope I'm not really ruining this for anybody, but Anakin I won't tell you by who
23:08: Anakin really is but Does that give you a hint okay?
23:15: Yeah? I I know that there are some people saying they're going. Oh, he's so cute There he he isn't in the later movies
23:21: You know I mean, but anyways we could do that, but but we probably won't we'll just stop that right there because Anyways I wasn't gonna sing that because I don't there are any words to it but in lieu of that particular discussion then
23:38: There is also the other possibility, and that's what I was really thinking about and that was
23:45: I was going to Talk a little bit about Well offer offer some thoughts, maybe some some self -correction
23:56: Maybe some Sometimes some words of correction to all of us who claim that that term reformed as part of the description of our theology and What do
24:10: I what do I mean by that well I? Think once in a while it is good.
24:15: Even when we see and I think we are seeing a a
24:21: Renaissance a revival in Reformed theology there is a growing interest in the subject
24:29: I mean face it folks you wouldn't see books like chosen, but free or what love is this if if Reformed theology was not making a a real
24:39: Impact in the churches, and it is it remains. I think a minority but Still there is there are a lot of people who have a national audience
24:57: Who in essence? Are very open about their espousal of reformed theology and so In light of that I my thought really was that probably the worst thing we can do as Quote -unquote
25:17: Calvinist is to get in the way of what God is doing and so I was thinking about to chatting with you today about How we do get in the way how
25:25: I? get in the way how all of us I think sometimes get in the way of what God is doing and That's not anything any of us want to do none of us want to get in the way of What God is doing in in?
25:41: Spreading his truth and enlightening a fire of passion in people's hearts for God's truth
25:47: Especially those truths that are the most opposed to Humanism most opposed to the unregenerate heart, but sometimes we do get in the way
25:57: We get in the way By Just watching the channel here.
26:04: We get in the way By inserting ourselves by attitudes that we have and So I was going to think about some of the ways and maybe invite you to participate as well some of the ways that you would see that you would recognize as being
26:23: Counterproductive attitudes that Calvinist should never have and I'm not I'm not talking here about the fact that we are very frequently
26:32: Unfairly accused of things For example elitism the charge that mr.
26:40: Hunt has made no There is no elitism in actually studying the text and preparing yourself to to study the text in a way
26:49: That's fair to the Word of God That's not elitism in any way shape or form Obviously we need to know how to respond to that charge, but that's not what
26:59: I'm talking about there I'm talking about the attitudes that sometimes we do have
27:04: That sometimes if we're really honest We do not adorn the gospel of the grace of God with the proper attitude toward those who?
27:15: Have not yet come to understand in fullness these divine truths Calvinist should not be known as the chosen frozen, of course, even though that's a term that even we have used at times and So what about the attitudes that sometimes we have
27:37: What about those Those issues that people will raise and they'll use them as conversation stoppers.
27:45: You'll you've seen happen you've seen how when we
27:51: Start raising the issue and we're trying to go the text We're trying to go to John 6 and to Ephesians 1 and to Romans 9 and and to 2nd
28:01: Timothy 1 and and we're trying to talk about Paul's statement that he endures all things for the sake of the elect and and and we're trying to bring up the great themes of of of God's Of God's sovereignty and and his justice and his freedom and we want to get into the text.
28:19: That's let's face it That's where Calvinists feel at home. We feel at home in the text and Yet there are these stopper questions
28:27: And the reason they're stopper questions is because they they in essence say well I don't really want to talk about that because this has been my experience with Calvinists and so before we can get into the text there are these
28:42: These assumptions and these attitudes we need to deal with and that's what we'll look at when we come back from this break
28:48: Here on the dividing line 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 we'll be right back
29:11: The history of the Christian Church pivots on the doctrine of justification by faith Once the core of the
29:17: Reformation the church today often ignores or misunderstands this foundational doctrine in his book the
29:23: God who justifies theologian James White calls believers to a fresh appreciation of Understanding of and dedication to the great doctrine of justification and then provides an exegesis of the key scripture texts on this theme
29:36: Justification is the heart of the gospel in today's culture where tolerance is the new absolute
29:41: James White proclaims with passion the truth and centrality of the doctrine of justification by faith
29:48: Dr. J Adams says I lost sleep over this book. I simply couldn't put it down James White writes the way an exegetically and theologically oriented pastor appreciates
29:57: This is no book for casual reading. There is solid meat throughout an outstanding contribution in every sense of the words
30:06: The God who justifies by dr. James White get your copy today at a omen org
30:11: More than any time in the past Roman Catholics and evangelicals are working together They are standing shoulder -to -shoulder against social evils they are joining across denominational boundaries in renewal movements and Many evangelicals are finding the history tradition and grandeur of the
30:28: Roman Catholic Church appealing This newfound rapport has caused many evangelical leaders and laypeople to question the age -old disagreements that have divided
30:38: Protestants and Catholics Aren't we all saying the same thing in a different language? James White's book the
30:45: Roman Catholic controversy is an absorbing look at current views of tradition in Scripture the papacy the mass
30:52: Purgatorian indulgences and Marian doctrine James White points out the crucial differences that remain regarding the
30:59: Christian life and the heart of the gospel itself. They cannot be ignored Order your copy of the
31:05: Roman Catholic controversy by going to our website at a omen Org this portion of the dividing line has been made possible by the
31:12: Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church The Apostle Paul spoke of the importance of solemnly testifying of the gospel of the grace of God The proclamation of God's truth is the most important element of his worship in his church
31:25: The elders and people of the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church invite you to worship with them this coming
31:31: Lord's Day The morning Bible study begins at 9 30 a .m. And the worship service is at 10 45
31:38: Evening services are at 6 30 p .m. On Sunday and the Wednesday night prayer meeting is at 7
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32:34: The joys of live casting hi
32:41: Zeke are you doing Zeke Zeke? Zeke's under the desk and and I Actually think
32:52: I understand sky man blew up his computer this past week because he had like an inch of dust all over his power
32:57: Supply, I think I have an inch of Zeke hair over everything inside my computer because Zeke likes to sit down here right next to The computer, you know, it's that time year, especially here in Arizona where dogs and cats are shedding like anything
33:11: I mean I have I have brushed about four dogs worth off of my poor German Shepherd who lives outside and Zeke gets to live inside.
33:17: He's a bit of a wimp and But he's down here next to my feet and we can't get him out.
33:25: Oh And he plunk just laid down right next to me. So We actually have a theory that Zeke is a
33:37: Jesuit and That he reports on our activities. That's how they know what's going on.
33:43: Oh, there he goes Something more interesting than than me. Yes, Zeke wanted the laser. Oh, did
33:48: I say laser? I shouldn't have said laser if I say laser He'll come running back in here because he knows where the laser is and he's an interesting interesting fellow, but Anyway, some of you're going
33:58: Zeke who in the world is Zeke Zeke is a dog Zeke is is a big friendly dog who likes to get petted and he's a whole lot easier to love than my dog because you
34:07: Try to try to pet my dog and she licks you just constantly. She will not stop
34:13: Zeke will just sit there and say how you have found your purpose in life. And So anyways, why am
34:20: I talking about I have absolutely no idea other than we just normally don't have him in here And the door is still open.
34:25: So he'd come back in here if you wanted to at any point because it hasn't been closed and and eventually people will will realize that and we'll close it, but Skyman does suggest that that we let
34:38: Zeke speak and He will speak the problem is you have to you have to sit here and howl for him first and Can you imagine what would happen if I howled on the webcast?
34:48: I mean, that's all that you'd ever hear on Catholic answers live and and all sorts of stuff like that would be
34:55: Why do I am I hearing things? I'm hearing things. I just heard somebody turn on a microphone. I know
35:00: I just heard someone turn on Mike I in fact I heard I just heard it again. You're trying to get Zeke to do something, aren't you?
35:06: I can tell but anyways I'm gonna go on to a Important subject now, so no more
35:12: Zeke discussions You know where I learned to do that. I learned to do that from from from Rush Limbaugh Because you know rush sits there with the paper and and he you know, here's a bill
35:25: That's that that was a bill. That's a Size that bills an 8 and a half by 11 voice stream wireless bill you know why it's 8 and a half by 11 because it's the it's the it's the thing for my son and And my son calls his girlfriend like every three three minutes and so I mean they're having to send me reams of Bills, which
35:45: I think sort of doesn't that sort of defeat the reason of having digital stuff anyways Anyways Copeland might give an 8 endorsement if he howls on the webcast.
35:54: Well, that's that's true. I'm not sure that I want Kenneth Copeland's Endorsement in fact,
36:01: I I really don't by the way, I should mention this I Have been told to the grapevine that dr.
36:07: Gabriel or tarot Gave Harold camping a copy hand -delivered a copy of dangerous airwaves to him my new book refuting
36:16: Harold camping's errant teachings in the subject of the of the church and Very very strangely.
36:22: We have heard back that Harold camping likes the book He likes it because I was respectful.
36:28: He doesn't agree with it, but he likes it because I was respectful To which I just sit here and go
36:38: Why can't I remember these the Twilight Zone sound, you know, that's about the only way that I can I can remember
36:44: In fact, I better turn that off sound off. There we go I've how could you say
36:50: I like that book? He calls me a false teacher, but I like that He was respectful.
36:55: Actually, there were a number of times where I put solos camping us the Latin form of camping alone because that was the only foundation for what he had said was well,
37:06: I say so and that's what it is, but Anyways, that's that's what I've been told is that he likes the book and so far is not interested in Was not interested in doing a debate on the subject and for what
37:18: I've been told and I haven't really been spending a whole lot Of time listening to mr. Camping of late. I sort of burned out doing that Writing the book and I think you all know
37:29: Why that would be and I've been told on the regular the
37:36: Open forum of late. He's been just almost taking it for granted Well, we know for certain now that the church has ended and so now what do we do from there and things like that?
37:44: I suppose I should listen more if I should probably just call in is what I should do and We'll see what happens. But anyways, we are talking this afternoon actually,
37:51: I'm talking to myself this afternoon because no one will call in and I'll just take that as an indication that you know
37:58: We probably really shouldn't do much much looking around to try to find any other way of doing it because you know no one calls in anyways, and So, you know, that's just how it is but Since no one's calling in.
38:11: I'm just sitting here talking about attitudes that That do not help in the proclamation of the gospel of grace
38:22: And oh, I didn't even know if someone changed the topic line a challenge to Calvinists call in eight seven seven seven five three
38:30: Three three four one who made that change. Let me see here. I wonder if I let that sandwich man Where's burning you didn't call the dividing line while you still can that that now?
38:39: I don't know who made that change. I could scroll back here and see you see who did make that change It's it's it's it's a it's a nice change.
38:45: I don't mind that at all MD MD eight knots CDS. Well, who knows
38:51: CDS changes topic? Yes. There you go. Well, I should have known And challenge is spelled correctly
38:58: Calvinists is spelled correctly good. Nothing. Nothing British in the spelling today's That's that's too.
39:03: That's good, too. Anyways, there is a challenge that I am attempting to make and and Basically, I was reflecting on when we try
39:14: That there's two things in my mind and that's probably too many one thing is the the
39:24: Reformed person that finds himself in a non -reformed Church and this is you know, many people who for example through the debates that we've done and through Through the books that we've published have come to recognize that there's
39:41: More to the New Testament message than the four spiritual laws and That person then finds himself in a church that is not reformed
39:54: How does that person deal with that particular situation? Well, that's sort of something
40:00: I myself went through and Eventually After I think a fairly significant amount of time and and a lot of soul searching
40:10: I needed to go to some place where I could be Consistent in what
40:16: I was saying as I would travel around speaking and what was being Spoken from the pulpit in the church that I was in but I think there needs to be a real a
40:28: Real careful attitude maintained by a person who is what shall we call a a new
40:37: Calvinist and I don't think he'll mind my mentioning this but someone in the chat channel introduced me to the the phrase the cage stage and He explained it to me that the cage stage is when a a person has just come to an understanding the doctrines of grace and they tend toward imbalance and overzealous attitude the cage stage if not dealt with in by maturity in on the part of People in the church people maybe the people who have even introduced this person to the doctrines of grace
41:29: The cage stage can sometimes if it's not handled rightly end up leading to a hyper
41:34: Calvinistic perspective Where People end up in essence questioning the salvation of anyone that doesn't agree with them and I will tell you
41:50: I've run into a lot of reformed folks like that and they are not They're not pleasant to encounter and They are not
42:02: Enjoyable in any way shape or form to be around and You try to to demonstrate maturity with those folks you try to demonstrate
42:14: Some level of Insight into how we can adorn the gospel of grace and how we can instead of repelling people
42:26: Simply because of our attitudes lay the foundation for being able to go into The Into the text of scripture itself yet you try to share those things many of them won't listen to you even though they have been reformed for You know 1 15th or 1 20th of time you have and I've even been a situation where these individuals had become reformed because I had introduced them to these things
42:55: But there's no end of folks that they can then go read who will become even more radical and And end up losing balance and so on and so forth and That's that's difficult thing to say let me just stop for a moment and I noticed that a
43:09: Mormon and channel is asking about elder Han In the book letters to a
43:16: Mormon elder Let me just mention that elder Han was a composite character that I developed Based upon all the more missionaries that I had spoken to and I Did not wish to use any of the names of the more missionaries with whom
43:30: I had spoken. There are many of them But if that answers that particular LDS person's question
43:36: Hopefully that is useful to you since I went ahead and sort of stopped the topic for just a moment
43:42: Let's go ahead and take a phone call that has come in from San Diego on the subject of the email that we
43:49: Read a couple of weeks ago the email that suggested that it would be best if I stop dealing with the biblical text stop talking about Greek and Hebrew or seminary educations or anything else and Adopt a more popularist attitude shall we say to try to get people to like me and So let's go ahead and talk with Robin in San Diego.
44:14: Hello Robin. Hi, how you doing? I thought I'd get on the line a little give you some company
44:25: Getting to really have doubts about well, never mind. I'm just kidding Yeah, I just wanted to make a comment on the the letter that you got but I guess it was a couple weeks ago now and I Go to a
44:42: I attend a Calvary Chapel. I would say if Affiliated Church in Southern, California we're about eight to ten thousand people in the
44:52: I mean in mega church, right and as someone who attends a
44:58: Calvary Chapel Church type church not it's not a formally a Calvary Chapel, but I Took a great offense at that letter it implies that we're all just a bunch of Emotional people that don't like to don't really don't want to learn anything.
45:16: We just want to exercise our emotion have emotional experiences and all that kind of stuff so we could be a appeal to by on the basis of non -truth and that was
45:30: Well, it was kind of surprising To hear that I will say that there are people like that in Calvary Chapel, but I I would
45:41: I just wanted to well, I Sure, if I were in your position,
45:47: I certainly would have found the the letter rather offensive as well because it did with a rather broad brush you know paint the entire movement and now of course
46:01: You know you look at the statement of faith on the Calvary Chapel website Look at the fact on the back of what love is this one of the prominent endorsements is from Chuck Smith And so you recognize that there's certainly in certain
46:14: Calvary chapels a very strongly anti -reformed stance But there are others that that do not do that.
46:23: I have found a fairly wide variety of Perspectives amongst the various Calvary chapels that I have encountered in various places
46:30: There does seem to be I think and I think it's due to geography a little more consistency in the
46:37: California ones But the farther you get away, I've found a little more variation things
46:43: But still you can't broad brush the entire thing just simply by saying well if someone goes to a
46:48: Calvary Chapel Then they are this this and this and of course the main thing was that he was attempting to say that That the only kinds of argumentation that are going to work there are populist ones that do not partake of any form of logic and I think certainly that I would find if I were in your position.
47:07: I'd find that someone offensive But would you say that? that in general in Calvary Chapel circles
47:18: For example in the Calvary Chapel colleges the Bible colleges Is the study of Systematic theology a church history
47:27: Greek and Hebrew is that is that something that is emphasized or de -emphasized? well, I think it's it probably is de -emphasized to a degree, but It really depends on the on the on the church for instance
47:43: I don't know if you want me to say the church name over the air, but well actually we're only on the internet, so That's true
47:50: Forgot about that anyway. I go to horizon Christian fellowship. They have a Bible Institute there, and there's quite a few
47:56: People that teach there and who are pastors that at horizon who have been through theological seminary training now
48:05: I know there has been that and I'm certainly not going to say that that You know it's been emphasized.
48:14: There is a tendency to de -emphasize it. I agree with you But that's not true of everyone and that's not it it seems to be at least
48:24: I've seen in the Being here since 93 in this particular church. I've seen that change a bit where people seem to be getting a little more hunger or some people seem to be getting a little more hunger for the
48:38: Getting into the you know a little more rigorous study of the word I mean you get you get tired of just Just singing the
48:50: Right Jesus loves me choruses after a while right yeah, there. There does. There's there's a need for a full -orbed
48:56: Ministry of the word now. Did you get a chance to go to the debate with George Bryson? No?
49:02: No, I didn't I wasn't able to make it, but I have I have read through You have that on on On webcast didn't you didn't you have it on tape or something?
49:14: Well we have we have we're making the I think we're making the tapes have we made the tapes available yet if we if not
49:22: Warren needs to punch rich in the shoulder or something Where we have the CDs, and I am begging on my on my knees
49:31: For the videos to be sent to me I'm I'm just honestly have done everything that I know to do to try to to get the videos and Still still don't have have them available, but as soon as we get them available
49:47: We're going to be making them available to folks and George Bryson as I understand.
49:52: It is the head of Is it is it church planting or missions or something for Calvary Chapel isn't he yes?
50:00: And and yeah, he's definitely I've been through his he's got a
50:08: Writing on the web that he yes Calvinism Wade and found wanting yeah, exactly
50:14: I've been through that and I'd say the article is pretty much waiting for counting but well
50:20: His position was Wade and found wanting in the debate. That's what debates are supposed to be all about but I think you'll find the the debate to be very interesting and and hopefully it'll be available soon hint hint hint and yeah,
50:35: I think But the thing that I would ask basically is could there be such a thing as a
50:43: Calvary Chapel that had a Confessed a reformed perspective, or would they be drummed out of the
50:49: Calvary Chapel movement. I think they probably be Shall we say? Disassociated with uh -huh if you know what
50:57: I mean. Yeah, yeah, it's kind of the Non -denominational way of being in a nomination. Oh, yeah, don't tell me that that's not that's like the
51:04: Church of Christ saying We're not a denomination Well, yeah, you sort of are you know, but yeah,
51:09: I understand. Well, you know as that movement grows the
51:15: As long there are people in it that are reformed I mean But as far as being the the pastor like this
51:22: I couldn't see that the senior pastor ever being right and we're preaching it from the pulpit exactly.
51:28: Yeah, that would probably Get him kicked out. Well, it did to One of the elders that one of the the main churches that I minister at when
51:36: I go back to Long Island is Grace Reformed Baptist Church in Merrick and Rich Goswiller is an elder there and he was very involved with the
51:44: Calvary Chapel movement until he encountered the doctrines of grace and then you know did experience shall we say the the left
51:51: Buddha fellowship, so there does seem to be a a A Stance that has been taken on that particular subject
52:01: Some of the churches are less strident about than others some Calvary Chapel pastors are very very clear in their denunciation of reformed theology
52:10: So, but as long as you keep telling people read your Bibles and read all of it they're gonna keep reading
52:16: Romans 9 Ephesians 1 and all the excuses in the world aren't going to get past those passages and that's that's really from my perspective the
52:25: The real strength That's why I don't have to feel like it's on my back is as long as people are carrying the
52:31: Bible around It's gonna it's gonna speak for itself. So anyways, well, thank you for your call today, sir. I appreciate certainly understand, you know exactly how you'd feel if you listen to that email and and From another if I real quick sure just make another point.
52:46: It's kind of related to that. You know as well Sure, this is probably the bigger point because I don't just feel like well, he's picking on Calvary Chapel's map but Really the bigger point was okay.
52:57: Let's water down truth In order to be agreeable and that was just sickening.
53:03: I mean, you know It got a little naughty Believe me as you can tell
53:09: I was absolutely blown away by it and interestingly enough I read most of my response on the air.
53:15: I never heard back From that from that email that never no further contact whatsoever
53:22: Because I was fairly straightforward in saying that and that is this is a very God dishonoring
53:29: Perspective. I mean, how can you how can you trick people into believing the truth? And if you trick people into adopting one position, can't they then be tricked out of that position by someone else?
53:40: What a what a life to have where you actually think that since you've gotten everyone into believing you
53:48: By illegitimate means you have to constantly be chasing them around to see if if they're encountering someone else
53:54: Who's could get them to believe something else by equally illegitimate means? I mean, what a what a life that is
54:01: Well, and unfortunately, there's a lot of folks that that is what leads to the kind of attitude that says
54:09: Don't study what anybody else says don't listen to what anybody else says just listen to me
54:15: You have to start preaching in that way so as to keep your your Ill -gotten followers from finding out that you've misled them and how many people do we know that preach just that way?
54:30: Yes, they do yes they do get more and more inward and self whatever the line the the circle gets tighter and tighter all the time certainly does
54:40: Anyway, you're doing a good job, and I really have enjoyed over the years your Dedication to the truth and not being afraid to say whatever the word says how you see it and well,
54:51: I appreciate that I just hope you you can keep on going. I heard some snatch about something about the
54:57: Not being able to continue the webcast. I yeah, I'll get the tape and listen to that. But yeah, well basically the
55:05: Means by which we are doing the webcast now are increasing their rates by 600 % and that's actually by cutting our
55:14: Cutting our Connections by a third so it's actually much more than that so We don't have the money to be able to do that kind of thing.
55:23: It's so we're looking at other means of doing it We'll see what the see what the Lord provides Thank you very much, thanks for calling
55:31: God bless Bye -bye eight seven seven seven five three thirty three forty one. I was starting to pick up a radio station here
55:37: Do you hear that? I was I heard that anyways It's I don't know if it was just the fillings of my teeth or if there's a black helicopter over my house right now
55:45: I don't know. Maybe it's these Oakley's I bet you these Oakley's are actually well anyway Eight seven seven seven five three thirty three forty one
55:58: You know all these all these all these folks sit in the chat channel just sitting there going mm -hmm
56:03: Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm
56:09: Anyways appreciate that call and and you know, I guess
56:14: I should just comment I a Non a non denominational denomination, which is what
56:22: Calvary Chapel is a Denomination whether you want to use that terminology or not a denomination
56:32: Cannot simply stick its head in the sand and say this is an issue. We're not going to address the
56:39: Statement of Faith on the Calvary Chapel website, though it attempts to Shall we say follow a via media a middle way it does not succeed in that and It is fairly well known to everyone that The Calvary Chapel movement is opposed to the doctrines of grace well
57:03: That means that as we speak God's truth as we present
57:10: God's truth is we Are fair with everything that the Word of God says?
57:16: Conflict is going to result Now, how do we handle that?
57:23: And I guess this sort of takes us back to the main issue and I would I would share this with all my
57:29: Reformed friends a number of the cage stage
57:34: Calvinists as sky man likes to put it Get all caught up in attempting to determine the spiritual development or even whether a person is truly a
57:50: Christian of anyone who does not immediately see things with the clarity that we quote -unquote see things
57:58: Now first of all, you've got to understand how people see that you've got you've got to understand how that communicates to people
58:03: We need to be careful. We don't use the same type of terminology that sometimes the cults use
58:09: You know the Jehovah's Witnesses say so when did you come into the truth? well, sometimes we
58:14: Calvinists will say when did you find out about the doctrines of grace in almost the exact same way and if we if we honestly recognize that This is a gracious act of God in Opening our eyes to see the the fullness of truth and the fullness of his word
58:34: Especially those areas that are most offensive To that remaining sin in our own hearts if we recognize that's grace
58:42: Then the first attitude in our mind is not going to be Well, if you haven't seen it, then you may not really be a
58:49: Christian That's not that seems very very inconsistent to me and it does not help us in Presenting the gospel of grace to those around us
59:02: We need to recognize that if it was God's grace That led us to understand these things and we cannot command
59:11: God's grace in someone else's life Our focus shouldn't be on where someone else is
59:18: In their spiritual pilgrimage our focus should be upon the humility
59:25: That a recognition of God's sovereign grace should bring into our own hearts
59:32: There should never be such a thing as An arrogant
59:37: Calvinist now, I know I know I know I know I know exactly what a bunch of you are thinking immediately and that is
59:47: Well, I was just trying to share with this person about what this passage said and they accused me of being arrogant
59:54: I I understand that there's nothing you can do About that you there's only one person who knows your heart.
01:00:02: That's God when you know That you were not in any way shape or form
01:00:08: Speaking with arrogance in your heart when you were just allowing the Word of God to speak when you have prayed
01:00:14: God take me out of this equation Let me just speak your truth if you can say that with it with an honest heart, then you can't worry about that I know that we're gonna be accused that Paul was accused of things like that and accused falsely the key is it has to be false accusation and We have to be very very quick to ask ourselves, what is my motivation?
01:00:36: What is my motivation in sharing these things? I just happen to notice the
01:00:42: The the producer of the program is busy talking to a Mormon and channel right now and we're past our break time
01:00:48: So I was just gonna mention that right as he came to realize that so we're gonna go ahead and take our break Well all the rest of you who've been getting everything done
01:00:55: You need to get done so you can get in in the last half hour can call eight seven seven seven five three
01:01:00: Three three four one eight seven seven seven five three three three four one and we will be back
01:01:06: After and so this is where the music comes up, you know, it goes But there you go, that's how that's how they do it in the big times eight seven seven seven five three thirty three forty one
01:01:17: We'll be right back What is dr.
01:01:30: Norman Geisler warning the Christian community about in his book chosen, but free a new cult secularism false prophecy scenarios
01:01:36: No, dr. Geisler is sounding the alarm about a system of beliefs commonly called
01:01:41: Calvinism He insists that this belief system is theologically inconsistent Philosophically insufficient and morally repugnant in his book the potter's freedom
01:01:51: James White replies to dr Geisler, but the potter's freedom is much more than just a reply It is a defense of the very principles upon which the
01:01:58: Protestant Reformation was founded Indeed it is a defense of the very gospel itself in a style that both scholars and laymen alike can appreciate
01:02:06: James White Masterfully counters the evidence against so -called extreme Calvinism Defines what the
01:02:12: Reformed faith actually is and concludes that the gospel preached by the Reformers is the very one taught in the pages of Scripture The potter's freedom a defense of the
01:02:21: Reformation and a rebuttal to Norman Geisler's chosen But free you'll find it in the Reformed theology section of our bookstore at a omen org
01:02:30: Millions of petitioners from around the world are employing Pope John Paul II to recognize the Virgin Mary as co -redeemer with Christ Elevating the topic of Roman Catholic views of Mary to national headlines and widespread discussion in his book
01:02:44: Mary another Redeemer James White sidesteps hostile rhetoric and sites directly from Roman Catholic sources to explore this volatile topic
01:02:52: He traces how Mary of the Bible esteemed mother of the Lord Obedient servant and chosen vessel of God has become the immaculately conceived bodily assumed
01:03:02: Queen of Heaven Viewed as co -mediator with Christ and now recognized as co -redeemer by many in the
01:03:09: Roman Catholic Church Mary another Redeemer is fresh insight into the woman the
01:03:14: Bible calls blessed among women and An invitation to single -minded devotion to God's truth
01:03:19: You can order your copy of James White's book Mary another Redeemer at a omen org
01:03:27: Is the Mormon my brother? Bethany house publishers presents James White's book is the
01:03:32: Mormon my brother in Television campaigns parachurch events and clergy fellowships all across the
01:03:38: United States Mormons are presenting themselves as mainstream Christians. Is it unloving or backward to say they aren't real
01:03:45: Christians in contrast to Christian monotheism the belief in one God Mormonism teaches that God was once a man who lived on another planet and was exalted to the status of God And that Mormon men can also become gods upon death and resurrection in his book is the
01:04:01: Mormon my brother James White demonstrates how this fact alone means Mormons and Christians are
01:04:06: Irreconcilably at odds at faith's most basic level is the Mormon My brother is now available from Alpha and Omega ministries book ministry.
01:04:14: You can order is the Mormon my brother from our website at www .aomin .org
01:04:24: You Now in case anyone was really wondering it's a omen dot o -r -g
01:04:35: Sorry disappeared right there at the end 877 -753 -3341
01:04:42: Picking on the folks who are in control of things today, you know, my headphone thing of a
01:04:47: Bobby here is all Gonna have to take this off. Yeah, take this off and you sort of let it hang there and eventually unwraps itself
01:04:55: Wow It's really wrapped up You know last night I had the opportunity of participating in the graduation of Seven students from Golden Gate Baptist Theological Seminary's, Arizona campus
01:05:10: Three of the seven I had had the privilege of torch teaching Greek and Hebrew because they did their
01:05:18: MDiv's three of them had managed to avoid the biblical languages by doing a different Different degree and one of them got his
01:05:26: MDiv But he did his Greek down in down in Tucson and I didn't didn't teach it down there But it's really neat to see some of these students that I had taught
01:05:33: Greek Greek exegesis Hebrew Hebrew exegesis Graduating it was a real honor to be involved and the funny part was
01:05:41: I didn't know about this So I got there but the Lachman Foundation provided New American Standard Bible updates for each of the
01:05:50: Graduates and so the head of the the Arizona campus of course thought it would be more more than appropriate since I work for Lachman for me to a hand the the
01:06:01: Bible to each graduates They came along got their degree and then I got to give them the Bible and and stuff like that So it was it was very interesting that That I got to do that, but it was a special time especially when the staff got to go down and and say a prayer with each one of the graduates and and One of the graduates
01:06:21: I don't think you'd mind my mentioning this Sean Haynes one of the final classes that he did was
01:06:29: He did a a paper Basically examining chosen but free in the potter's freedom
01:06:36: Which is interesting here. I'm the one who taught him Greek and Hebrew and and so he gets to write a paper on a debate between well,
01:06:46: I guess it's nothing that's not a formally a debate of course, but on the Conflict between Norman Geisler and one of his own professors on the subject of the doctrines of grace
01:06:56: So that was that was sort of cool to see him. And of course he He told me that at a luncheon they had had earlier in the day
01:07:03: He had been asked to talk about the scariest experiences that he had in seminary
01:07:10: And I was very proud of fact that I figured prominently and one of the scariest Experiences he had in seminary and you might say why is that?
01:07:19: Well He indicated that Let me put some
01:07:27: I have no idea what that question is Anyways, he indicated that back when he took systematic theology from me down in Tucson some of you may even recall if you've listened to the
01:07:43: Archives of the dividing line that so there was one dividing line program. I forget when it was Where this would have been
01:07:51: I think it was 99 or 2000 I don't remember what it was, but I would have to teach and it was while we're still at kpxq
01:07:58: I would have to teach on Saturdays down in Tucson. I'd go down Friday night. I teach
01:08:03: Friday night. I'd stay the night and then Go back in the morning teach in the morning
01:08:10: We get done about two or three in the afternoon and then I'd head back There was a
01:08:15: Saturday where I I was just able to tune in the dividing line as I got into my truck to drive back to Phoenix and that's when a
01:08:26: Jehovah's Witness apologist had called in and had Was Was raising various and sundry issues and as I recall had misrepresented something that I had said and so I I Called on my cell phone and I I've ever had one of those experiences where especially with a cell phone where you you're driving along and you're talking on the cell phone and You get down with a call and you put the cell phone down and you realize you you do not have any conscious memory of how you got to where you are and It all sudden strikes you that that you were doing automatic
01:09:11: Automatic driving in essence. Well, that's sort of what happened because I called as I was pulling out from the church
01:09:19: Called immediately as soon as I heard what the phone call was and When the phone call ended I was somewhere on I -10
01:09:28: Northbound from Tucson playing bumper cars with with 18 wheelers and somehow managed to get through all that in one one piece and Debate with a
01:09:38: Jehovah's Witness at the same time on the cell phone who was who was calling in. It was quite the interesting experience but During teaching that mr.
01:09:47: Haynes had gone down to a Tucson for that And he said the scariest experience he had in seminary was when
01:09:58: In the course of this would have been in the second semester we covered soteriology
01:10:05: I role -played a person who believed in works salvation and I Just for the first I don't remember how long ago how long it was maybe hour hour and a half till we took our first break just went after him and gave him my best sort of Scott honey in style of role -playing and you know, they started to They started to you know, try to interact they tried to Respond they brought up the standard verses and of course
01:10:49: I shot them down as soon as they brought them up and tied them in logical knots and and just just had a had a
01:10:55: Blast and Sean said that when they walked out for the break he and another another student looked at each other and said that's it
01:11:01: We need to go find a church that teaches you're saved by works. And of course when they came back
01:11:06: I then said now here's where I misled you and all of those things and you know went back and Explained all that stuff, but he said that was the scariest experience he had in seminary
01:11:15: Was just just discovering that at that particular point in time someone could just run them in circles on the subject of on the subject of of works and faith and grace and the nature of all these things and then go back and put it all back together can afterwards so it was really a
01:11:41: Very very Encouraging period of time in In talking with with Sean and the other people graduating.
01:11:49: Congratulations to them. I still haven't seen the paper. He wrote however the subject of Geisler and myself chosen but free and so on and so forth.
01:12:00: So 877 -753 -3341. I don't know what this question is about.
01:12:05: We spent 40 minutes on the subject of A Compatibilism last week and I really don't
01:12:15: Do not understand. I've been given a question here that we have a caller wants to know how God effectuates good and evil
01:12:22: I have no answer for that since I don't know what it means So Go ahead and take it.
01:12:29: I if it's the same subject as last week I'm just gonna say well, that's we talked about last week and we'll go on from there. So let's let's see if it is
01:12:37: What's what's your question caller? Hey, dr. White, how are you doing? Just fine. It's good to talk to you My connection here is a little bad.
01:12:42: So I'll try to get this out there and hear you as well But um, I guess my question is this like I've talked to some of my
01:12:49: Arminian friends And whenever we bring up the issue of the way God Brings them out good as opposed to bringing about evil
01:12:58: There seems to be some The charge I guess that it hears maybe like Hank Hanegraaff saying
01:13:05: Basically that you know, God is the author. How could that not be the author of evil? And I just want to know how would you you know, explain that, you know to an
01:13:14: Arminian how God does bring about evil for his good purposes
01:13:21: And not making it sound like it's you know, some kind of cosmic loophole in which
01:13:27: God gets out of You know being the author of evil, which of course he's not Yeah, that is what we talked about last week and I I mentioned at that time the the concept of compatibilism is the is the answer
01:13:38: To that I go to Isaiah 10 Genesis 50 in Acts 4 and if they're asking for a mechanism
01:13:45: I don't I don't offer a mechanism because God doesn't offer us a mechanism if they're if they're trying to go beyond what
01:13:53: Scripture says I don't offer them anything if if they if I go to Isaiah 10 and I show them that God judges the
01:14:03: Assyrians on the basis of the intention of their heart that he brings about good from the
01:14:08: Assyrians evil intentions if that's not enough for them, then I say well the Word of God isn't enough for you and maybe that's what we really need to be talking about and I probably would also point out that if they are a standard historical
01:14:21: Arminian not an open theist But they need to answer the very same question that they think they're somehow avoiding by simply inserting the concept of free will
01:14:29: Because if they believe that God has exhaustive divine foreknowledge of future events Then they're already confessing that God brought about the creation of all things and He did so knowing full well exactly what was going to happen
01:14:47: And so they're left basically asserting that well, he knew that but it was because of man's free will so in other words he uses means
01:14:54: Isn't that what we're saying that he uses means you're just saying that he's using means But without a purpose and we're saying that he uses means but for a purpose
01:15:03: And obviously which one of those two perspectives makes makes rational sense is very clear so Really most of those folks that I've talked to who would raise an issue something like that Have never really thought through their own theodicy their own
01:15:20: Explanation for the existence of evil outside of this the surface level well, it's it's man's free will all right, then do you deny?
01:15:28: That God has exhausted divine foreknowledge and if they say no and for example
01:15:33: You mentioned Hank Hanegraaff brings up this issue Hank Hank has said more than once there is not a single renegade
01:15:39: Molecule in the universe now how you put those two together. I don't know But if you accept that her perspective, then you've you're you're asked you have to answer the exact same question
01:15:50: You're just trying to avoid saying that God has a purpose in it Which I I've never understood how that somehow gains anything
01:15:58: But for me, anyways, the the key issue is if if they're willing to go the text of Scripture Exegete those passages and then answer their own question based upon those passages great unfortunately, and I've never sat down and tried to figure out the exact percentage, but I'd say
01:16:18: Maybe being generous 20 % of the people who've raised those objections to me.
01:16:24: We're actually willing to go to the text of Scripture and And actually deal with those those issues from that perspective, maybe
01:16:34: I'm sorry I'm trying to listen to you. My connections really bad.
01:16:39: So I tried to get you over the internet, but that's not working very well That would be that would be where I'd go and and if they if what they're asking for is some sort of mechanism
01:16:49: I can't give them a mechanism I can only show them where God does it and if they are subject to the authority of the
01:16:54: Word of God then that'll be Enough if they're not nothing I have to say is going to be enough for them
01:17:00: And in fact, I would warn people against trying to go beyond that We did discuss that last week when
01:17:06: Edwards tries to go beyond revelation and explaining Adams situation for example ends up tying himself and all sorts of logical knots and So that's interesting.
01:17:21: I just got a private message. Your favorite Catholic is back from Immaculata. I Didn't know
01:17:27: I had a favorite Catholic. Well, anyways, I'm sorry That's interesting things happen here while we're on the on the air.
01:17:33: So that's that's the best I can do for you there Thank you Thanks for calling.
01:17:39: God bless 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 41 I Had to move that thing out of the way so I could he see who was next
01:17:49: How does a Roman Catholic reply to Galatians 5 3? Well, the funny thing is there's a
01:17:54: Roman Catholic in channel right now You might want to ask him how how they answer Galatians chapter 5 verse 3
01:18:01: But let's go ahead and talk with Ashraf and see if that's what he's oh, hello. Hi. How you doing? Pretty good
01:18:09: Well, the reason I ask is because I just want to get a Roman Catholic perspective on I mean, what what what does it mean to a
01:18:18: Jew and Paul threatens them that if they're to take circumcision as a an act of obedience for Justification, I mean why why would that be a threat to a
01:18:31: Jew who has to keep the whole law now? Well, here's here's the passage and I testify again every man who receives circumcision
01:18:41: He is under obligation to keep the whole law. Now. This is of course Paul's assertion
01:18:47: That the Judaizers who were adding Only a small portion that is the reception of circumcision as miss as a necessary act for Justification he is asserting you cannot take a section of The law once you start down the road of law then you must continue down the road of law and That's that's simply
01:19:14: That is not the road of grace it's the road of law the law's intention was never to justify and It was to show give us a knowledge of our sin
01:19:23: Which by the way is one of the greatest refutations of the common claim not only of Roman Catholics But sadly of some who call themselves
01:19:30: Protestants today that the only real issue that Paul is dealing with when he talks about works of law is works of ceremonial law and not works of other kinds of Law as well
01:19:45: That the whole idea of demonstrating and giving a knowledge of sin Demonstrates the moral law is what
01:19:51: Paul has in mind not the ceremonial law But when you say how would a Roman Catholic respond to this you mean as I don't see how that is
01:20:01: Threatening a Jew if Paul is saying that to a Judaizer If Roman Catholicism is true because they have to keep the moral aspects anyway
01:20:10: But so what does it matter if they have to Be obedient to the ceremonial aspects because that's what they're trying to promote anyway
01:20:18: So, I mean, I don't see how that would be a threat to a Judaizer if Roman Catholicism was true
01:20:27: Not really following the the application here Roman Catholics believe that there that the moral law is
01:20:37: Is part of their justification though, don't they Yes in the sense that they are saved by a faith that works by love and that work is
01:20:51: Effectuated in that way. Yes, and if if a Judaizer wants to add ceremonial aspects to that as well what what kind of Threat is
01:21:05: Paul making here to that Judaizer If he has to keep both ceremonial and moral aspect of the law when the
01:21:13: Judaizer was trying to promote the ceremonial aspects anyway Well I'm maybe
01:21:21: I'm just slow today because of writing this morning was too hot and I fried my brain but The I think the point that Paul is making of course is you cannot divide the law up and in essence
01:21:33: Rome has done that in in in some way herself but The the real argument is that once you start down the road of law, there is no turning back
01:21:45: You cannot wed it to grace and of course from my perspective that would be the primary application To Rome is that Rome has attempted because she confuses justification
01:21:54: Sanctification because she does not understand the finished work of Christ. She does not accept the the depravity of man, etc, etc, etc
01:22:02: That she likewise Ends up attempting to bring those two roads together so that you can walk down both of them at the same time
01:22:10: It doesn't work that way so That would be the the the application that I would see
01:22:17: Is that you cannot simply divide up the law that way once you once you add any of it In that fashion then you have to add all of it
01:22:25: And of course, they're going to argue that well, he's talking to Judaizers specifically about the Mosaic law
01:22:30: We have the law of Christ the higher law, etc, etc, etc, and eventually what you're going to get is You know, well, what are you trying to do interpreting the
01:22:37: Bible by yourself? Anyway, he's new tradition So I'll scripture results in 33 ,000 nominations yada yada yada and you know
01:22:43: The glazed look comes across the eyes and that's that's where you go from there. I see what you're saying there
01:22:48: I see what When a Roman Catholic splits up the law into the ceremonial and moral here
01:22:53: But my question would be like what do they believe that Paul is saying when he says you must keep the whole law?
01:23:03: I Don't I can't answer your question. I don't know you'd have to I just kicked immaculate out of channels
01:23:10: Might go find where he landed and ask, you know, lean over is he's sitting there in the grass so having gone through the the goalposts and Lean over and put a microphone in his face and say how do you interpret
01:23:22: Galatians father? I don't know it would depend on you know Some of these Catholic apologists are trying to adopt the most
01:23:28: Protestant means of hermeneutics. They can while keeping it Roman Catholic and so, you know,
01:23:36: I think someone who's an old hardline traditionalist is is
01:23:43: You know gonna gonna look at something like this and and and say oh all he's talking about here is the
01:23:49: Jewish law But yeah, you do have to keep the whole law of Christ to be saved the more
01:23:56: Scott honey in Type of apologist is probably going to give you much more of a
01:24:02: Protestant interpretation But simply say you just don't understand that we believe that everything we do we do by grace anyways, and therefore it's not really falling under these condemnations and and yada yada and then you have to get into specific works of of The sacraments and things like that to find out what they really mean by that Alrighty now, did you just let the dog in or are you just leaving?
01:24:28: Someone's knocking at your door. Are they a Jehovah's Witness or a Mormon neither one neither Well, I thought it was a
01:24:35: Jehovah's Witness you could just hand the phone to him we could have quite an interesting conversation But yeah, that would be pretty fun.
01:24:41: It would be if I do that. I'll have to have my new visor edge That sounds like the sounds like a plan to me, okay.
01:24:53: Thanks a lot man. Thanks for calling. God bless. Bye. Bye Eight seven do we have any more phone calls?
01:24:59: I don't know see eight seven seven seven five three Where did we go here?
01:25:06: I? Some of you we go, you know, I sound a little distracted today. Well, we just had it a Roman Catholic and channel.
01:25:12: I mean and part of the reason I'm distracted. I'm standing up. I decided to stand up and that way
01:25:20: Let's see here. I wonder who that was did anyone do a who is on that immaculata fella?
01:25:27: Because I don't remember who that person was. All I know is they were defending C bond or civil and French and Probably was him just under a different Nick I would imagine but anyways, he's gone
01:25:46: Everyone in channel should be Should be very impressed by the fact that I can kick band people and talk to people all the same time while standing up That's that's that's called multitasking.
01:25:59: I'm no longer a DOS unit I am a Windows unit, but unfortunately, I'm more like a Windows 95 unit.
01:26:04: So every once in a while I get the blue screen of death And that's when people call in and I sit there going.
01:26:10: I understand what you're saying but anyway, some of you know what I'm talking about those of you who are not computer geeks do not and Anyone who is in channel has a
01:26:18: Mac. I don't want to hear about the superiority of your operating system Okay, you may have a superior operating system, but I have programs
01:26:26: I can use So that's just sort of the difference between between the two of us. Well, anyways about out of time
01:26:33: Let me just mention for those of you who are just tuning in here toward the end. Just again pray for us we are looking for New means of doing this program and you may have listened to the conversation today and said don't really think you need to but for those of you who do like to Listen to the program we're looking for new means of doing it because our current provider has decided to get rid of us in essence and If you have suggestions then possibly you would be so kind as to get in touch with us and let us know if there is anyone out there who maybe owns your own server and you would like to Help us to make this kind of program available
01:27:22: That would be really nice too. We wouldn't have any problems in in that as well
01:27:29: So, please get in touch with us pray for us that we will be wise in how we Handle the the funds that we have and the time that we have and You know,
01:27:39: I'll just be honest with you. I don't want to do dead casts, but I certainly could see recording programs of shorter length
01:27:49: To air in the future, but that's it's not as fun as being able to you know Kick people out of the channel while talking to someone on the phone.
01:27:57: I mean, that's that's just a whole whole different different world So anyways next week I will probably have a specific topic in mind or we'll continue talking about things
01:28:05: Calvinist should remind themselves of often But in any case, thanks for listening today listening to the dividing line and we'll talk with you next week.
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