Attitudes In Reformed Theology

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James White director of Alpha Omega Ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now. It's 602 973 4602 or toll-free across the United States. It's 1 -866 -854 -6763. And now with today's topic here is James White.

And indeed good afternoon. Welcome to the dividing line and we are live today from Phoenix, Arizona Where I don't know what it is today how hot it is I turned off my little weather bug thingamabob II but it's been awfully hot of late and there's a Tropical storm or hurricane or something down there in the Pacific that's thrown a few clouds our direction which has increased the Humidity around here and it's just miserable at the moment.

But I can't complain because I could be amphibian live in New Orleans where you don't even bother buying a dryer for your clothes because it really doesn't accomplish anything anyways and That well, I'm not gonna touch that one.

They go any farther with that because you can say a lot about that particular area of the country. But anyhow, we sort of have open phones today at 8 7 7 7 5 3 33 41 8 7 7 7 5 3 3341 have a few interesting things to mention.

Yes I we realize we need to redo that introduction with the new number but that does sort of bring me to the first thing to discuss and that is. Well, we mentioned it too briefly, I guess toward the end of program last week.

But we we found out that we need to be Rearranging how we do our webcasting in the future. It seems that the folks that are webcasting this the moment not the folks who are responsible for it, but the provider we're using really isn't interested in our business any longer and they are Cranking up the rates, you know, we're not talking 5 here.

We're talking like more than 500 and Just want to get rid of us small people, I guess I don't know. But we're really 595 Is the actual increase in the amount of and is that is that taking into consideration?

The fewer connections that we would have to or is that not to know it's I even taking that. So given that it's less than half the connections. That's over a thousand percent. When you figure it out per connections, so it's just absolutely ridiculous.

They don't want our business anymore. They're trying to get rid of us. Are they are they? Based and maybe Salt Lake City or something like that along those lines one-third the connections. Oh, there you go, New York well, maybe you know, maybe guidos talking to the people you I don't know, but anyways, we have a problem coming up at the end of this month and Don't know where to do about it.

Yet. We have some folks looking around and if we can find something that is Workable then that's what we'll do. But Right now I don't know what there is people are talking about. Something called shoutcast don't know anything about that.

There are other things that are out there, but I'm not interested in doing anything. It's just going to be you know, 10 -20 people and we can't record it. We can't put In archive form things like that.

I'll just probably be Getting my Saturdays back if we cannot find something else to do I would rather not do that, but I'll be really I'll be very honest with you. It is hard to do a Program which we have called a dead cast we've had to do them in the past, but you could you could tell I think when we did and That is.

It's difficult to just sit here and talk for 90 minutes and you might be saying do you seem to do it fairly often? But I still have the recognition that there are people listening at this particular point in time.

There's the interaction with the chat room and I know most people listen to us via archive. But still it's much easier when you're speaking and you're seeing some sort of reaction. Even if it's delayed you see some of it in the chat channel and and you get phone calls and you can talk to people and things like that a dead cast.

What can you do. I mean, I suppose we could announce a topic beforehand, but the problem is when people call in. Let's say we you you know. The topic is a lot of people could be asking the same question unless they're on hold when their question is asked.

Then you just you're repeating yourself over and over again. So you don't really accomplish a whole lot that way so I don't know Don't know what the future holds if you're listening to this on Archive format in the future and there are many more dividing lines listed then we found something to do.

If you are listening to archive format and everything ends the end of June. We didn't find anything else to do so I don't know what's gonna happen. But I've we have gotten many many many many emails from people saying look, you know Keep going.

We love to listen to the dividing line so on and so forth and I'd love to you know, continue to do it but There it has to be worthwhile. It has to be worth the investment of an hour and a half for the time and the funds and and things like that to Get to people and and look those who listen to us.

No, we are a very very very Small ministry and We don't we're not in the situation of the large ministries that can afford to go to The big outlets and you know, there there are ministries that bring in literally millions of dollars.

Trust me. We do not so you know, we have to be wise to what we've got and do the best that we can with what we have and so, you know unless someone buys us our own server and And the software to do things.

I just don't see how there's going to be much we can do about being dependent upon finding usable internet service providers other than the one that Someone someone's trying to get this program off straight gate.

We're not on straight gate, but again, he's not listening that so anyways it is interesting to watch Watch folks talking about that. So anyways, we'll we'll see what what turns up. We have a couple people who who know what is involved in doing webcasting looking around seeing what's out there and seeing what we can afford.

We had found a really good rate have done it for quite some time and So we'll we'll see what what the Lord brings up eight seven seven seven five three three three forty one is the current phone number anyways for us right now and Even that changed recently, but it is toll-free.

Anyways, eight seven seven seven five three thirty three Forty-one we have a lot of things we can be talking about the past few weeks. We've been talking about primarily issues relating to Dave Hunt's new book and Interesting seeing the stuff That is coming in from the website on that particular subject.

I'm very much looking forward over the next couple of weeks as soon as I'm just about done with a chapter that I need to have turned in probably by Monday at the latest and Once I'm done with that then I really need to get started on the the point by point count the point counterpoint debate book with mr. Hunt and I Have seven topics that I will be writing on he has seven topics that he will be writing on doing a presentation.

And we interact on the basis of that presentation. So it'll be 14 total topics covered in that book in a specific obviously the specific word limitations for each section and So that's going to be very interesting to see how that works.

I've never done a book quite in that format before and we don't have a whole lot of time to do it in. So it's going to be pretty intense here during June and then in July on Long Island most of the time Atlanta the first weekend and then Long Island, I think head up there the 7th if I recall correctly up to a Long Island and there till the 29th I believe and So a little over three weeks there on Long Island not totally certain everything would be doing tried to arrange debate on Islam With Hamza Abdul Malik was not able to get that worked out.

Basically, I I asked mr Malik to I sort of wanted to continue the debate we had had before those of you who saw it or Listened to it know that in essence We Basically the debate boiled down to mr. Malik's admission the New Testament does teach the deity of Christ.

It's just that he feels New Testament has been corrupted that all the passages that teach the deity of Christ Were inserted at a later point. So I wanted to sort of continue that and say, okay Give us some examples and let's get specific.

I had specifically brought up the common Muslim claim That in John 14 and John 16 the term paraclete which Christians have always understood referred to the Holy Spirit of God Actually was was a different term that referred to the exalted one and that this was in reference to Muhammad and I found I've found that claim just laughable.

I've dealt with this before on the dividing line and Yet, it's constantly repeated. So I just wanted to find specific examples of where mr. Malik believes the New Testament has been finalized and I'm sorry finalized has been corrupted and Debate those issues and Mr. Malik just simply would not commit himself to any particular passage or any particular corruption.

He just wanted me to defend in a general sense the inspiration of Scripture. Well, all that means is he can just throw out alleged contradiction after alleged contradiction after alleged contradiction doesn't have to be specific doesn't have to give any type of Scholarly documentary basis or anything like that and And obviously it is far easier to use the scattergun approach and to make Allegations than it is to respond to them.

I have said many many times it takes far less time to state an error or to present an error than it does to refute an error and so It would be just silly To to say anything to say, okay, let's just go ahead and do a general debate on Inspiration or something like that.

No, I want something specific and mr. Malik wouldn't do it. So we're not gonna be able to do that and Therefore right now the only debate that I know that I'm going to be doing in July will be with Patrick Madrid on the subject of the veneration of Saints the communion of Saints is what he will undoubtedly be calling it and So that's what we'll be looking at doing at that particular point in time.

Some of you may be interested. We have been attempting to arrange a debate With dr. Bernard the leading theologian of the UPCI. Right now he is in essence saying that unless he has a UPCI pastor specifically request him to come to a particular area due to an attack or a Misrepresentation of the UPCI in his area that he doesn't do debates.

But if he has a UPCI pastor ask that then maybe he will. I don't know if that's going to end up Developing to something or not. I just right now that's still still up in the air. We will see what what happens about it in the future.

So there's certainly much going on. There's lots of possibilities yet in the future. As far as debates ago this fall, I know I'm gonna be down in Texas at some point and Some of you may be saying well, you know, what about the debate with Dave Hunt?

Well right now obviously Dave has a reason for saying let's not debate at the moment because we are working on the book my Suggestion is going to be once the book is completed that the greatest way to advertise the book and to accompany the book would be to package it with a Videotape or maybe a couple of videotapes of the two authors interacting live on the subject of the of the book itself, I think that would just be wonderful and Therefore I really really hope that that's exactly what will work out In in terms of a live debate between myself and mr. Hunt.

If it does not there are others that I would be certainly willing to to engage. I think the fellow who thinks that Dave Hunt's book is a Is a The how was how is it put let me get my copy here. This may well be the most important book written in the 21st century.

Yes, that was the line in the endorsement from Tim LaHaye, and I I'd like to first of all ask mr. LaHaye, what did you mean by that? Because it can be taken two different ways I think probably. What's being asked or what's being asserted there actually is?

The 21st century this this book is so important that in the next 98 years This one will at the end of 98 years this one will still be in in the top 10 one of the most important books That has been written in the 21st century which given the number of errors per page and and just a complete lack of background the subject either means that the 21st century is gonna be really dismal as far as theological writing goes.

Or possibly mr. LaHaye has really grossly overestimated this particular work one of the two. The other possibility when you think about it is is that since the 21st century is only a year and a half old.

That that maybe that just means this isn't most important book ever written. I'm but I'd really don't think that's probably what he was thinking, but if mr. LaHaye of of the left behind fame Would like to debate this subject because he seems to think that Calvinism is downright to Calvinism comes perilously close to blasphemy.

And that is why I congratulate Dave Hunt for writing this excellent clarification the doctrine that has its roots. More in Greek humanism from where it originated that it does in Scripture isn't fascinating that.

That's Greek humanism. Always shared as its fundamental element the concept of free will. Outside of the Stoics all the rest of them free will was the biggest thing and that is the center point of Dave Hunt's theology.

Well, you know, that's just something, you know, just to point out. But anyways, maybe mr. LaHaye would like to do a debate. There are other interesting folks that did this as well at Chuck Smith. There is an interesting interesting possibility and Chuck Missler that Anybody would put a Chuck Missler endorsement in the back of their book is got a problem.

But I don't think Joe Chambers is gonna do it we've we've tried to get him to do stuff and he won't he won't do it, but. And then this one is what makes me chuckle. I wasn't gonna talk about this but under exceptional endorsements Bob Wilkin PhD founder executive director Gracie evangelical society a fascinating expose of modern five-point Calvinism.

Dot dot dot dot dot. I Especially enjoyed the section on perseverance and assurance of salvation. You know why the main person quoted in that section is Bob Wilkin. Ah, yeah. Okay it'd be like my writing a you know someone writes a book and they they quote extensively from the Potter's freedom in one chapter and I say I particularly like the Chapter where he quoted me all the time just.

And just seems for sort of funny, but anyways, oh My oh my oh my oh my by the way, I don't know if I mentioned this but I did put up another article other than my Open letter to Dave it's at what love is this calm and it is on the subject of Dave Hunt's charge of elitism.

That is that is the be-all and end-all response that Dave has developed by the way. If you demonstrate he's wrong when he tries to translate the Greek language, you're an elitist. And if you demonstrate he's wrong in his historical information then you're an elitist and To be called an elitist is a bad thing.

Very very very bad. And someone just asked if Joe Chambers is reformed. No. He Joe Chambers is as reformed as Ignatius Loyola, okay, how's that? Joe Chambers for those of you wondering was on the it was one of the three King James only guys on The John Ankerberg show that we did back in 1995.

He was the one defending Gail Ripplinger and remember Gail Ripplinger five points of Calvinism. The s the. How did she get what was the s? S of the Satanic Satanic hiss. I remember that part, but I'm trying to remember.

Well, how'd she make the connect? Anyways, it was really really weird and. So no, he's he's a King James only sort of interesting fellow way out there on In his own and that's where the debate with the dr. Piper, which I have not heard.

Recently Loyola was reformed. Oh good. Yeah. MDH is good with computers, but not so hot with his historical theologians, I guess but anyways I don't even know what I'm talking about there I've put I put the charge of elitism paper up on the website and more and more of those papers will be going up there.

I know that Vivid blue in channel is getting close to having his done even though It takes him forever to get that final draft. He finishes it and then he goes through about 14 drafts. Before before he finally gets the last one, but those things could be up there on the website.

Don't forget to hit it every once a while and see what new things have been added to. What love is this dot-com? And you know, I should actually open up a message window here find out. I thought I saw a no.

No, no, no one's calling. I'm gonna start singing pretty soon. Eight seven seven seven five three thirty three forty one. Is the phone number. Eight? Seven seven seven five three. Thirty three forty one.

Someone just asked in the chat channel any Calvinists in here Warren will sing. Oh good. Actually, I like the people who listen to this program. Wouldn't put him through that that'd be a very bad thing.

Actually, I have no way of knowing, you know, Warren may have a voice like a nightingale. He just doesn't ever actually tell anybody about it. I've tried a few times to to to you know, sort of lean over and listen, but It just doesn't happen.

So anyways, don't worry. I'm not gonna sing yet. Anyways. Eight seven seven seven five three three three forty one. I the main topic I was thinking about discussing a little bit today. While you all are rushing to the phones as I know all of you will be doing.

Because you're all such good and kind folks and have so many things that you would like to talk about and ask questions about and Fill up our time or you know, hey. We just might have a short program today or something like that more like a voice like a deaf mute.

You didn't expect me to just read on the on the air. Did you? Oh, did I forget the cough button? Let me reach up there. And there don't have that little delay thing yet. Do we we don't need a delay thing, I guess but because we're delayed anyhow.

But that's not really gonna make any difference. But Anyhow thing I was gonna talk about a little bit today I was thinking about this and I I think it's good every once in a while. What if the world was that?

Any discussion about dividing line showtimes must go to apologetics or you will have to help us in our physics experiment of trajectory and weight ratios. Thank you. I Get it. I get it. In other words, you'll be kicked if you continuously ask what we're gonna be talking about and see this is this is a topic.

This is the topic today is religious stuff. That's whenever anybody asks me what you could talk about. I say religious stuff and That's normally not what they're asking though. And I know that by the way, I do know that that's not what they're asking about but Yeah, CDS could call in and ask about the JEDP theory or the or the Johnny Depp theory that would work, too I think they're about equally valid personally, but anyways what I was thinking about talking about I was torn between two things I really was.

And you might want to make sure it might my pooters up here. I was torn between two things. We could have a scintillating discussion a true scintillating discussion of the musical background of Star Wars.

We really could do that and the new theme the the new theme the love theme from from the attack of the clones. That's that's really cool. That's oh Oh My goodness, we are really getting good and we can actually bring up music behind ourselves.

That is really cool. But did you notice how haunting that and how dark that that love theme is because you know who Anakin is? I hope I'm not really ruining this for anybody but Anakin I won't tell anybody who Anakin really is but Does that give you a hint?

Okay. Yeah, I I know that there are some people saying they're going. Oh, he's so cute. There he he isn't in the later movies, you know, I mean, but anyways, we could do that but but we probably won't we'll just stop that right there because Anyways, I wasn't gonna sing that because I don't there aren't any words to it but in lieu of that particular discussion then there is also the other possibility and that's what I was really thinking about and That was I was going to talk a little bit about.

Well offer offer some thoughts maybe some some self-correction. Maybe some sometimes some words of correction to all of us who claim that that term reformed as part of the description of our theology and What do I what do I mean by that?

Well, I think once in a while it is good even when we see and I think we are seeing a a Renaissance a revival in Reformed theology there is a growing interest in the subject I mean face it folks you wouldn't see books like chosen but free or what love is this if if reformed theology was not making a a real impact in the churches and It is it remains I think a minority.

But Still there is there are a lot of people who have a national audience. Who in essence? Are very open about their espousal of reformed theology and so in light of that I my thought really was that probably the worst thing we can do as Quote-unquote Calvinist is to get in the way of what God is doing.

And so I was thinking about to chatting with you today about how we do get in the way how I get in the way how all of us I think sometimes get in the way of what God is doing and that's not anything any of us want to do none of us want to get in the way of of What God is doing in in?

Spreading his truth and Enlightening a fire of passion in people's hearts for God's truth, especially those truths that are the most opposed to Humanism most opposed to the unregenerate heart, but sometimes we do get in the way.

We get in the way. By Just watching the channel here. We get in the way by inserting ourselves by attitudes that we have and. So I was going to think about some of the ways and maybe invite you to participate as well some of the ways that you would see that you would recognize as being Counterproductive attitudes that Calvinist should never have and I'm not.

I'm not talking here about the fact that we are very frequently Unfairly accused of things. For example elitism the charge that mr. Hunt has made no. There is no elitism in actually studying the text and preparing yourself to to study the text in a way That's fair to the Word of God.

That's not elitism in any way shape or form. Obviously, we need to know how to respond to that charge, but that's not what I'm talking about there. I'm talking about the attitudes that sometimes we do have.

That sometimes if we're really honest We do not adorn the gospel of the grace of God with the proper attitude toward those who? Have not yet come to understand in fullness these divine truths. Calvinist should not be known as the chosen frozen, of course, even though that's a term that even we have used at times and.

And. So what about the attitudes that sometimes we have. What about those. Those issues that people will raise and they'll use them as conversation stoppers. You'll you've seen happen you've seen how when we Start raising the issue and we're trying to go the text.

We're trying to go to John 6 and to Ephesians 1 and to Romans 9 and and to 2nd Timothy 1 and and we're trying to talk about Paul's statement that he endures all things the sake of the elect and and and we're trying to bring up the great themes of of of God's.

Of God's sovereignty and and his justice and his freedom and we want to get into the text. That's let's face it. That's where Calvinists feel at home. We feel at home in the text and. Yet there are these stopper questions and the reason they're stopper questions is because they they in essence say well I don't really want to talk about that because this has been my experience with Calvinists and so before we can get into the text there are these.

These assumptions and these attitudes we need to deal with and that's what we'll look at when we come back from this break. Here on the dividing line 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1.

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All right. The joys of of live casting hi Zeke are you doing Zeke. Zeke? Zeke's under the desk and and I Actually think I understand sky man blew up his computer this past week because he had like an inch of dust all over his power Supply, I think I have an inch of Zeke hair over everything inside my computer.

Because Zeke likes to sit down here right next to the computer, you know. It's that time year, especially here in Arizona where dogs and cats are shedding like anything I mean I have I have brushed about four dogs worth off of my poor German Shepherd who lives outside and Zeke gets to live inside.

He's a bit of a wimp and. But he's down here next to my feet and we can't get him out. Oh. And he plunk just lay down right next to me. So We actually have a theory that Zeke is a Jesuit and That he reports on our activities.

That's how they know what's going on. Oh, there he goes. Something more interesting than than me. Yes, Zeke wanted the laser. Oh, did I say laser? I shouldn't have said laser if I say laser. He'll come running back in here because he knows where the laser is and he's an interesting interesting fellow but Anyway, some of you're going Zeke who in the world is Zeke.

Zeke is a dog. Zeke is is a big friendly dog who likes to get petted and he's a whole lot easier to love than my dog because you Try to try to pet my dog and she licks you just constantly she will not stop.

Zeke will just sit there and say oh you have found your purpose in life. And So anyways, why am I talking about I have absolutely positively no idea other than we just normally don't have him in here.

And the door is still open. So he'd come back in here if you wanted to at any point because it hasn't been closed and and eventually people will will realize that and we'll close it but Skyman does suggest that that we let Zeke speak and he will speak.

The problem is you have to you have to sit here and howl for him first. And can you imagine what would happen if I howled on the webcast? I mean, that's all that you'd ever hear on Catholic answers live and and all sorts of stuff like that would be him.

Why do I am I hearing things? I'm hearing things. I just heard somebody to turn on a microphone. I know I just heard someone turn on Mike I in fact I heard I just heard it again. You're trying to get Zeke to do something, aren't you?

I can tell but anyways I'm gonna go on to a a Important subject now, so no more Zeke discussions. You know where I learned to do that. I learned to do that from from from Rush Limbaugh. Because you know Rush sits there with the paper and and he you know, here's a bill.

That's that that was a bill. That's a Size that bills an 8 and a half by 11 voice stream wireless bill you know why it's 8 and a half by 11 because it's the it's the it's the thing for my son and And my son calls his girlfriend like every three three minutes and so I mean they're having to send me reams of Bills, which I think sort of doesn't that sort of defeat the reason of having digital stuff anyways.

Anyways Copeland might give an 8 endorsement if he howls on the webcast. Well, that's that's true. I'm not sure that I want Kenneth Copeland's Endorsement. In fact, I I really don't by the way, I should mention this.

I Have been told to the grapevine that dr. Gabriel or tarot Gave Harold camping a copy hand delivered a copy of dangerous airwaves to him my new book refuting Harold camping's errant teachings in the subject of the of the church and Very very strangely.

We have heard back that Harold camping likes the book. He likes it because I was respectful. He doesn't agree with it, but he likes it because I was respectful To which I just sit here and go. Why can't I remember these the Twilight Zone sound, you know, that's about the only way that I can I can remember.

In fact, I better turn that off sound off. There we go I've how could you say I like that book? He calls me a false teacher, but I like that He was respectful. Actually, there were a number of times where I put solos camping us the Latin form of camping alone because that was the only foundation for what he had said was well, I say so and that's what it is, but Anyways, that's that's what I've been told is that he likes the book and so far is not interested in Was not interested in doing a debate on the subject and for what I've been told and I haven't really been spending a whole lot Of time listening to mr. Camping of late.

I sort of burned out doing that Writing the book and I think you all know Why that would be and I've been told on the regular the Open forum of late. He's been you know, just almost taking it for granted.

Well, we know for certain now that the church has ended and so now what do we do from there and things like that? I suppose I should listen more if I should probably just call in as I should do and We'll see what happens.

But anyways, we are talking this afternoon actually, I'm talking to myself this afternoon because no one will call in and I'll just take that as an indication that you know We probably really shouldn't do much much looking around to try to find any other way of doing it because you know no one calls in anyways, and So, you know, that's just how it is but Since no one's calling in.

I'm just sitting here talking about attitudes that That do not help in the proclamation of the gospel of grace. And oh, I didn't even know if someone changed the topic line a challenge to Calvinists call in eight seven seven seven five three Three three four one who made that change.

Let me see here. I wonder if I let that sandwich man Where spurring you didn't call the dividing line while you still can that that now I don't know who made that change I could scroll back here and see you see who did make that change.

It's it's it's a it's a nice change I don't mind that at all. MD MD eight knots CDS. Well, who knows CDS changes topic? Yes. There you go. Well, I should have known And challenge is spelled correctly Calvinist is spelled correctly good.

Nothing. Nothing British in the spelling today's. That's that's too. That's good, too. Anyways, there is a challenge that I am attempting to make and and Basically, I was reflecting on when we try That there's two things in my mind and that's probably too many one thing is the the Reformed person that finds himself in a non-reformed church and this is you know, many people who for example through the debates that we've done and through Through the books that we've published have come to recognize that there's More to the New Testament message than the four spiritual laws and That person then finds himself in a church that is not reformed.

How does that person deal with that particular situation? Well, that's sort of something I myself went through and Eventually After I think a fairly significant amount of time and and a lot of soul-searching I needed to go to some place where I could be Consistent in what I was saying as I would travel around speaking and what was being Spoken from the pulpit in the church that I was in but I think there needs to be a real a Real careful attitude maintained By a person who is what shall we call a a new Calvinist and I don't think he'll mind my mentioning this but someone in the chat channel introduced me to the the phrase the cage stage and He explained it to me that the cage stage is when a Person has just come to an understanding the doctrines of grace and they tend toward imbalance an overzealous attitude the cage stage if not dealt with in by maturity in on the part of People in the church people maybe the people who have even introduced this person to the doctrines of grace.