Torahism Answering Hebrew Roots and Other Movements with R. L. Solberg

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00:29

with every Christian There is a theology for every theology

00:37

There is a defense of truth Is there or is there not a single shred of factual historical information

00:48

Substantiate what you're asserting that this is an addition to the text personally I don't know of manuscript But I read scholars who are specialists in that deal and they have looked at those manuscripts or seen the lack of them here

01:01

I'm not thinking of that now, but so it are all the

01:10

Popes actually believers Are all the folks I don't know some good some couldn't be

01:15

I don't know So it's possible for the Vicar of Christ to be an unbeliever Yeah, that's interesting view

01:28

This creature from the dirt defied The everlasting Holy God After that God had said the day that you shall eat of it.

01:38

You shall surely die and instead of dying Thanatos that day he lived another day and was clothed in his nakedness by pure grace and Had the consequences of a curse supplied

01:53

For quite some time but the worst curse would come upon the one who seduced him whose head would be crushed

01:59

By the seat of the woman and the punishment was too severe What's wrong with you people?

02:06

I'm serious. I mean, this is what's wrong with the Christian Church today. We don't know who God is

02:15

He doesn't have faith. He has confidence Confidence confide from the

02:23

Latin With This is apologetics live to answer your questions your host of striving for eternity

03:01

All right, we are live apologetics live coming to you because of the strange virus that we have this

03:15

Pandemic that is going around. We're gonna do this over the internet. You're thinking of a virus called stupidity

03:22

That's right. That is the name of the virus that I'm convinced. Everybody is I Just don't get this whole virus thing.

03:30

Sorry folks. I all these schools are canceling. Oh Because people are going nuts

03:35

I don't get it. Yep. Sorry. Not that just looking at the percentages

03:40

Yeah, there's this is the importance of getting facts but that aside tonight we're gonna be talking

03:49

With the author of this book. Oh wait, doesn't that look so much better? It looks great covering up my face with this

03:56

Alright, so Torah ism are Christians required to keep the law of Moses And so we're gonna have

04:04

RL Saalberg if you listen to my rap report Podcast you are aware of this you've we've spent an hour going through this book getting into details

04:15

But if you have friends, wait, let me just stop stop You do have friends that are in Hebrew roots movement.

04:21

I all of you I know you do because basically everyone seems to but You got to make sure they're watching this listening to this and more importantly

04:32

Make sure they're going out to the website Torah ism book

04:37

Dot -com they're gonna need to go there for a very simple reason They need this book. And so we're gonna bring in Robert in just a moment.

04:48

I gotta give some announcements really quick first. We have a winner for the

04:54

Contest we had for the Christian podcast community I'm drawing a complete blank on who won.

04:59

I was traveling my bad, but someone won he got a box of 30 30 pounds of books and a thousand dollars worth of books and DVDs and CDs, so I will have to look up the winner and congratulate him.

05:15

I know that's really bad of me I understand that and some of you who are regular listeners are not surprised in the least actually

05:22

I see Mr. John Wilkinson in the in the room So he won't be surprised that I'm clueless as I try to look up who won the contest

05:31

But the winner was I'm sure is very happy that he got the books and But we did we did

05:40

Send that out. I Will if you hear the echo in this room,

05:45

I do Apologize for that as I'm in the process of moving It's gonna be a while before I actually get back into a place with books to absorb the sound

05:56

So, oh well, but it as far as some announcements we will be doing the

06:03

Equipped Jersey if you're in the New Jersey area end of July We don't have anything up on the website about it but if you go to striving for turning org sign up for the newsletter you will get it when we send that out as I continue to look for who won the contest.

06:18

This is really bad. I should have done this ahead of time So I will bring I'm gonna bring Robert So he could save me from more embarrassment

06:29

Robert welcome to apologetics You never know what's gonna happen with me at just At some point

06:38

I'm going to be able to explain in the future. What's been going on this week what it was like It's been a very busy busy week

06:46

But that aside I'm looking in the wrong group. No wonder why I can't find it that would help

06:54

Is that what I'm understanding that's right, my bookshelves are empty because of The stupidity virus it's it's a pandemic of stupidity everywhere

07:07

I do like I did like there was a Someone had grabbed some quotes.

07:14

I forget the senator from New York now I'm just remembering everything tonight, but he they had his tweet from like early

07:22

May where the guy was criticizing Trump for not doing for Closing the borders to China and how he we needed to replace him because he was so Radical and in what he was doing and and then like a month later

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He's the same guy is saying that this president's not doing enough And we need to remove him, huh?

07:43

Basically we need to remove him So either way you slice it we need to remove him. That's basically what they're ah, here we go.

07:51

All right, we got the winner all this time Philip Lexwoe is the winner of the contest.

08:00

It took me a while to find that okay, I this is this is how you know a

08:09

Person of ego I have I'm gonna bring John in early John. Go ahead. You can make fun of me all you want I know you you probably want to You could remember the guy's name and you're the one who picked the winner

08:22

No, actually the computer picked the winner Okay. Yeah, I was trying to find it for you, but Good okay,

08:32

I'm gonna put him back in backstage John's a regular and John John will you never wants to miss any opportunity to give me a hard time make fun of me

08:41

And I just made it easy We got John Malone in the in chat and he have

08:46

I'm sure is going to give me a hard time at church this week about Remembering the name

08:54

So, oh hey John Chris Han holds likes your hat.

08:59

He says he loves it Yeah now for the folks who don't know Chris Han holds

09:04

I want to encourage folks to go check out my Facebook page if you're on my Facebook There is an interview with mr.

09:13

Han holds, of course He was dressed as Captain America because that's usually how he dresses for work

09:20

No, no, no, I guess they don't let him patrol the streets as a police is a you know, police officer

09:26

You know law enforcement as Captain America, so he does that off hours.

09:31

Okay, but Great video there. He was interviewed did a fundraiser for a young man

09:36

Who is got terminal disease and he and a couple friends dressed up as their favorite? Comic character heroes and did a race.

09:45

It was really cool. And Chris if you come in We would we'd love to hear about that he says he's not allowed to wear the suit on duty

09:55

But dude, I would love to say, you know, it'd be a great video seeing Chris Han holds like arresting a man

10:05

Tell me that wouldn't be great I Should I should mention before we get into the topic

10:12

Chris Han holds is the winner of the Christian podcast awards He and his co -host

10:18

Richard story of the voice of reason radio podcast won the best episode for 2019

10:26

They were they were it was very very tight between them and just thinking and I think they were convinced

10:33

They weren't gonna win until they heard it and he was I think for days being like what in the world what's wrong with you?

10:40

What kind of guy wins and says what's wrong with you is a So Robert, let's get into for folks who didn't listen to the podcast let's get into Discussing a little bit of your background and then you know obviously you you must be from like a

10:59

Jewish background that you want to write about Jewish laws and Right, that's that's got to be it, right?

11:07

Well, no not technically but I am 1 to 3 percent East East European Jewish according to Ancestry .com,

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but yeah, I wasn't raised Jewish at all. Yeah Ancestry .com thinks everybody seems to be

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Jewish But they're I think they're if I'm very quickly they're owned by Mormons which for Mormons They have to be one of the ten tribes.

11:27

So like everybody in the world is you know is There so yeah, no, actually,

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I mean I I first found out about tourism which is a term that I had coined myself but just by engaging with some old friends that used to be

11:42

Christians and and One fall they decided to start posting anti Christmas memes, which is pretty weird at first I thought well, that's strange.

11:51

These guys are old friends of ours, you know From Minnesota where I'm from. I live in Nashville now

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So I hadn't talked to them in quite a while Was surprised to find that they were posting that and I thought okay,

12:03

I'll jump in Why is Christmas a pagan holiday and that just kind of was like Alice in the Wonderland?

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I stopped I stumbled into this whole other belief system that I at the time. I wasn't aware that it even existed

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It's kind of this weird halfway land between Judaism and Christianity And so that's that this whole thing started out as just me talking with friends turned into several blog articles on my blog

12:24

Which is our at RL Solberg calm and then over the course of a couple of months

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I started having people say well This might make an interesting book because they aren't the people that I was speaking with my old friends

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They aren't specifically Hebrew roots, but a lot of overlap. It's the same concept of Christians needing or they're saying

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Christians needing to return to Torah Needing to practice all the Old Testament laws Even though they at the same time they believe that Jesus came and that he was the

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Messiah So it's this kind of weird weird weird world that I stumbled into That was really the start of this book and and this is the thing, you know, you and I were talking before before we went live and So I want to tell tell the audience the story that I was telling you before we went live

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But of why I need to start traveling with copies of your book now first off anybody

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I'm I said this on my podcast on the rap report podcast I'll say it here. You need to go and buy several copies of this book

13:29

Torah ism. I'll cover my face So it's suddenly I look better, but you can go to tourism book comm and pick up a copy

13:36

Why I actually say you need to pick up multiple copies Because one for you and one to give away

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Because you will need to I think after our podcast someone said he bought six for pet members in his church that's good go do that because the reality is there is someone you're gonna know who is is

13:56

At least if they're not engaged in this There's so many people that are just playing with it and we're gonna talk about why that is a little bit dangerous maybe in a bit but This weekend this last weekend

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I was out in Huntington Beach, California and I was you know, basically

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I was going out with a friend of mine who does open -air evangelism there every every week and he's he's out there and he's

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Basically, what happens is every week he is up there and when he is preaching the gospel

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There is a guy with a shofar now for folks that don't know what a shofar is. Just look over my shoulder

14:34

Oh wait, no, wait, sorry, it's packed. I don't have it. Okay, but it looks it's a it's a horn like a ram's horn and You know what it it basically if you know how to blow it

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Right can get a very very loud sound and this guy tries to drowned out Ray every time he's preaching every week and so I figured

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I'd go over and have a chat with him and He had this whole chart up there

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Basically, what he was trying to do was to show everybody that we need to be realizing that we need to get back to our

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Jewish roots It was interesting You know Robert because he said everyone's

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Jewish. I was like, okay, that's an interesting one But he couldn't tell me which tribe he was from And and then he proceeded to tell me that I can't know which tribe

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I'm from But he had this thing up there it had the prophecy of Daniel and the seventy sevens and as We're looking at that I could see he's got it laid out the the first set the seven sevens is 49 years and the beginning of the the completion of the the building of the wall in the temple to the you know for that and then he's got the 62 times 7 so he's got the dates as years and He's going through this whole thing

15:57

Explaining how no Jewish person would would expect the Messiah to be on earth for more than a year and so the proof that this is something supernatural is the fact that the

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Holy Spirit was on earth for 490 days And I went wait, wait, where did the days come from?

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He's like, well, that's a riddle like what makes this a riddle and He he basically just says because we know it is

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No, you have to follow rules of interpretation Which he didn't want to do he ended up getting frustrated with me.

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So he turned to dr Silvestro who had an open Bible for a while and He was upset and and I let him go for about 10

16:39

Well, at least 15 minutes, maybe even 20 before I said anything I I just let him do his thing and then

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I started to interrupt him and he did not want that He didn't want any interruption But then as he's getting frustrated not being able to answer my questions he turns to dr.

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Silvestro and he's like, um Well, what is it? You have something you want to say? so he Anthony starts to read from Hebrews 8 and 9 because this guy was making a big thing about the that the the tabernacle has been discovered under a

17:11

You know in on a mountain the convenient thing about it being discovered though. You'll love this Robert It's it's always good to have a system that when you come up with a theory, there's no way to prove it

17:23

We know that this was found because this rabbi found it and seven people tried to move it and they all died and They're gone.

17:32

They vanished So, how do you know that? It's actually there like you're saying the only eyewitness the only eyewitnesses are gone

17:42

So you Is that a is he saying that was a recent thing? Yeah.

17:48

Yeah He was saying this. No. No, the irony is in this big chart that he had he had he had

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Christ return in like 2017 and it was crossed out and he wrote in 2023

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Convenient and Yeah, all because we found the tabernacle So Anthony's reading about Hebrews and that we don't look to a tabernacle.

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We look to Christ and He looks at Anthony goes I can't do this. I can't do I can't have two of you at once Only one of you at a time.

18:20

I said well, you're talking to me He goes, but he keeps interrupting and I literally was like dude. You just invited him into the conversation

18:26

He's been silent until you asked him to speak. He didn't interrupt At which point he started blowing a shofar to avoid talking to me

18:36

One copy of your book to hand it to him I told him the website but here was the interesting thing there were the

18:43

God's Providence there was a couple that was, you know wearing clothing that would be identified as Jewish people we were able to see the the you know, the the

18:56

Talas's, you know draping out and so we see this couple the guy is really really steeped in in this

19:04

Hebrew roots the wife is is steeped in it, but not as much she's just kind of I think following her husband

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So this guy that we're talking to really wanted to talk to her Right to talk to this couple, but instead since I was talking to him

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Anthony took the two of them aside and then started straightening her out on a whole lot of things. So hopefully they

19:25

You know, they they'll hear that we gave we gave them also told him to go find your book and gave him the website

19:31

So I think I need to copy have a couple copies of your book when I travel. Yeah. Yeah So let me ask you a shofar dude.

19:38

Was he a Jew or was he a Christian? He thinks he is

19:47

He well you gotta remember he thinks everyone's Jewish right so, you know when you become a

19:53

Christian you suddenly get Jewish heritage somehow I guess You know grafted in I could maybe go with that.

20:00

Yeah Okay, I could go with that but that's not what he was saying and that's like he was calling the the

20:06

Jewish people in the Nation of Israel his descendants or you know his And I'm a little troublesome or his ancestors saying, you know,

20:15

I'm like dude It doesn't work that way like, you know, but but this is I'm saying all this to say this is not an uncommon thing

20:25

This is some we're seeing in a lot of places more than just the you know arguments that Christmas and Easter or you know pagan holidays or Roman holidays and Made up and I mean there are some that deny the deity of Christ as well.

20:38

You you address this, right? Yeah You know one of the very very scary

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Yeah, here's the thing that I loved about your your book and why it was so helpful and we're gonna get into it in a bit, but As I sat there on the streets this past weekend

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There is not a single argument that any of these three people gave to me

21:01

That wasn't addressed in your book Every single I mean I was like wishing

21:07

I had the copy because I could have just gone Oh page 75 that covers it That way that's the thing that was amazing to me about the way your book was laid out was

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I literally had this conversation With three different people and not one argument except for his charts and his that craziness

21:27

But the arguments for us were turning to the law of Moses not one of them Asked me anything that wasn't already in your book.

21:34

And so we'll probably get into some of those I should mention if anyone wants to join and ask any questions, you can go to apologetics live comm

21:42

There is a link to participate there. I see Nicholas and mr. Batman is here

21:48

Don't know who mr. Batman is Maybe it's Calvinist Batman but You know, the the thing is if you want to join come on in we're gonna be opening it up in a bit first I want to give

22:01

Robert a chance to talk about the book to explain what you're gonna find when you get a copy of this book and Why and now then

22:11

I want you and I discuss why we think there's such an a treat intrigue for people about this So give a layout of the book why why you wrote it the way you did and what people can expect from it sure

22:23

Yeah, I mean what you just brought up I think is an important reason or an important byproduct of how the book came to be

22:30

So you said that there? Okay, when

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I engaged with my friends we went deep on a lot of stuff they were actually very gracious and and they in their

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Minds, they're really trying to pursue God. So I you know, I want to I want to give them credit for that but As we dove in all kinds of people.

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So this is this was I think I mentioned to on your podcast This was one of probably the rarest literary form ever which was a productive

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Facebook argument They only come around once every so often but this ended up being

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I think maybe because I knew them There's a lot of respect but because it went on for so long it went on over a month a lot of people had

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Had jumped in so I ended up having a chance It had all these offshoots and I ended up spending a lot of time three or four months just engaging with people

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Understanding what their arguments were and after a little while you you start to see a pattern It's kind of like apologetics in the larger sense, but there's there's certain pillars of Argumentation that they use and so as I started collecting and looking at all that.

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I Started to notice those patterns and I decided to try to adopt those patterns and how I laid out the book so basically the book is laid out first of all part one is is is kind of setting the table for the conversation because There's confusion even among Jews and Christians and Scholars about what does the

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Torah mean? So it can mean different things and I tried to adopt a more academic understanding of what actually the

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Torah is So I explained first of all, what what what is the Torah so we can all get our terms straight?

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and then I talked about what is Torah ism because that's a That's that's a term that I coined to address a wide varying group of sects that all

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Believe similar things but not exactly the same thing So that was a little bit of a challenge for me in that there was not one big

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Standard one doctrine that I could go to that says this is what this people these people believe, you know

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So in the book, I try to in two different areas. I try to Lay out an aggregate sort of statement of beliefs and With the folks that I was engaging with at the time

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I ran it by them and I said is this right? I don't want to misquote you tell me does this represent what you're talking about?

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And and you know, I got agreement that yeah Okay. Yeah, you got that right? That's exactly right. So those those are the belief statements or the creeds that I put in the book and and against which

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I Then in the second half of the book start examining those claims from those creeds So they have all kinds of claims and I kind of broke it down into into a few different sections

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There's claims about the Torah so we talked about was is the Torah eternal and was it meant for all nations and You know the big one was it abolished so that's

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Matthew 517 It's a big one that they that they bring up and then we talked about Claims about the commandments so but we look at specific things keeping the feasts keeping the

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Sabbath, you know the kosher food dietary restrictions Spend a lot of time going into the temple and What that all meant the priests in the sacrifice in the worship and all that stuff

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There's a lot of historical claims. I think the core of Torah ism comes from a historical claim about the corruption of Christianity by well by by several folks, but they often point to Constantine in 325 as the source of all this corruption that went down through history and now today

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This is what Torah isn't believes that today when Christians sit in the in the in the pews on a

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Sunday morning They're hearing lies from their pastor and their pastor may not even know their lives, but they've just absorbed all this corruption

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So we examine that in a lot of detail and then this gets to the scary part for me.

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So I'll just say that I'm a big fan of exploring the

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Jewish roots of the Christian faith I love understanding the covenants. I love understanding the journey storyline of Israel Going from a man to to a family to a tribe to a nation and understanding all that That's okay but when you start crossing the line and this is where Torah ism crosses the line they start we started getting into issues of their

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Claims about God and their claims about salvation. So they're talking about things like Jesus wasn't divine.

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So we look at that There's no Trinity if Jesus wasn't divine if he was just a man then the

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Trinity is a Roman corruption they say And then they start talking about salvation comes through obeying the

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Torah Which is really this whole area is very strange to me because how can you?

27:17

Well, we can get into it But you know just it just opens up a Pandora's box when you start getting into the idea that like they'll say for example

27:23

Jesus was just a man yet. He was the Messiah, but because he was a man You should not be worshiping him.

27:30

So when Christians worship Jesus according to Torah ism They are committing idolatry and worshiping a human.

27:36

So this is where you get into the real weird stuff but it's kind of like Mormonism the latter -day saints where you have to kind of dig down a few layers below the pop level to start uncovering those kind of scary roots

27:49

Yeah, and the thing by the way, some of folks are saying you're not as loud as me

27:55

Pumped you up here, but I can yeah, I know you can now you can do this Yes, there you go.

28:02

Let me pull my mic closer you actually for folks who don't know you have a Background that you and I obviously would share anyone who knows me.

28:11

I I'm very musical. I sing backup When I sing everyone backs up Nice You have a you got a background in music

28:22

Yeah, I should I should let folks know that some folks were commenting about my new intro for my rap report podcast a lot of people really liked the rap report daily where I introduced it and that was you who put

28:36

That together. Yeah, let me play in the instruments. Yeah, so so we'll have to apologize to mr

28:42

John who did the old one who's watching but John dude, you got to up your game.

28:48

I mean this guy is like a professional Okay And so what's he doing recovering professional musician?

28:54

Yeah, he's like wait what? Yeah, see it shows me doesn't mean Little show -and -tell.

28:59

It's my Martin D 1000 You're gonna have to pay me for this though Okay, that's enough

29:15

I just wanna Okay, I've always got like a guitar or something and when

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I'm thinking through things and working that out I'm Usually noodling around just for fun now and so Basically, I can't do any of that We had a guitar in our house for 25 years

29:35

We just sold it. I think it was um, it was played by people that would come over sometimes and They knew what they were doing.

29:41

We didn't my wife wanted to learn how to play but we never Never did I thought you're gonna say it was played by Jimmy Page or something.

29:48

No, no, although hey, I'll throw this out You you know People who are regular listeners here know that I'm pop culture illiterate so I have

29:59

I'm listening to the guy my next -door neighbors and where I used to live and there had a band playing and You know next day.

30:09

I was talking my neighbor. I was like, you know, you had I heard the music you guys had You sounded pretty good.

30:15

He's like, yeah, it's the East Street band. I'm like, okay He's like, oh, yeah, my brother -in -law is one of the

30:22

East Street members the East Street band. I'm like, okay, who's the East Street band? Then I should tell you that Jimmy Page was the guitar player for a rock band called

30:31

Led Zeppelin You weren't aware of that bad So, all right, so let's do this

30:40

Nicholas has been in for a bit So we're gonna bring him in to see what questions he may have So brought you in Nicholas you can unmute yourself.

30:49

All right, can you hear me? Got you. All right, perfect I reached out to you about I don't know probably a month ago.

30:57

Just uh, I'm trying to find some direction as far as links regarding just why we shouldn't

31:04

Use Hillsong and Bethel music in the church. Okay. Um, I Like I actually by God's grace stumbled across some links last week

31:13

Just through Justin Peters a Facebook community page So I might actually just shift gears if that's okay and just ask a question that I have from the

31:21

Old Testament Well, yeah, and I'll just say for what you were just saying Justin has done some great work on that.

31:28

He recently did a video with Todd Friel Yeah, but for folks who just so we don't switch topics the

31:35

Old Testament, but just so if people don't wonder why We might be against that They use they use their music as a way to reach into churches to pull people into Some of their false teaching and so the reason

31:50

I'd be concerned is the fact that they they are open about using their music to get into churches to try to pull people into their belief system

32:02

So it's not just playing they're playing their music's not just innocent. It's They're they're

32:09

That's their evangelism So, all right, so go with your question for the

32:14

Old Testament, okay Just as I've been making my trek through the Old Testament again this last year

32:21

I know that God gave commands right to do sacrifices at the tabernacle in the wilderness and so forth

32:27

But then as I get to like Joshua And as they go and do contest Conquests and things

32:34

I've noticed in a couple places that they build altars and so forth and do sacrifices there so I guess

32:41

I'm just trying to figure out like How how is that different from the ordinances that were given at the tabernacle as far as the duties of the priest to do

32:54

Because as I as I read through it and then I actually got back to Joshua chapter 8 verse 30 It talks about the the law as far as it being uncut stones

33:04

So there was a law that God set up which makes sense that they had to follow But I guess I'm just trying to figure out or differentiate between that and the actual practices that were at the tabernacle

33:14

That makes sense Yeah Yeah, that's a good question. That's did you want me to take that?

33:20

yeah, I guess the thing the thing that I think of is that like if you talk to the In rabbinical teaching they believe that the the law actually was given

33:33

Existed I should say before it was given on Mount Sinai. So even if you look at early Genesis you have

33:39

Noah building an altar And that was a long time before the law was given So there's there's a sort of an understanding or a belief that the that the sacrifices are kind of well

33:50

I don't want to say eternal but that they go back much earlier than the law and that the law sort of codified what they were and gave and kind of put structure around it and it became part of the law of Moses being sort of the terms of the

34:03

Mosaic Covenant and so the I Can't speak to whether it

34:09

It started at that time or whether we realize it at that time But when the when the law of Moses was given the sacrifices bomb they became a sort of atonement sacrifices for sin and And I think that's that's what we're seeing when you go through anything that you see that's pre

34:28

That's pre law of Moses and I and I don't I don't know I'm not really deep in this yet but because it because this writing of this book has got me really interested in digging further into into the history of Israel in the history of the laws because most many of the laws are mentioned in some form

34:45

Before we get to Exodus and the giving of the law. So I think a lot of it comes out of the nature of God And that and that as we as the

34:55

Bible progresses, you know, it's kind of this progressive revelation concept We start to understand later on what the sacrifices mean

35:01

And then of course by the time we get to the New Testament, it becomes very clear what the sacrifices were intended to Signify and the fact that Jesus was the one final sacrifice once for all

35:14

Now if you depending on your end times you an interesting thing that comes up with this is as well

35:20

Nicholas is the question people will see it seems that for those who hold to a millennial kingdom that the

35:28

Sacrifices are reestablished there and that becomes an interesting thing. I think the common understanding of that for those that hold to a millennial kingdom is that though the

35:39

Sacrifices then are much like what we would do is baptism or the Lord's Supper that point back to what happened at salvation and So many think that that's don't look do these sacrifices looking back at What Christ did on the cross which was the fulfillment of those sacrifices?

36:00

Oh That's interesting. I hadn't heard that so they go instead of being the foreshadowing that they are in the Old Testament They turn into a remembrance of what

36:07

Christ did. Yeah, that is that's them. That's the most common understanding sure, but hold to a millennial kingdom, so I'm just gonna say wouldn't that wouldn't that in a sense just I guess my thinking and that would when that undermined just the the whole sacrifice that Jesus did then if you go back to doing something that Was pointing to what he would ultimately fulfill

36:35

Well, the the thing is is what is the the goal of it? So we think about the

36:41

Lord's Supper which was actually a Passover meal Yeah, the bread and the wine yeah, and Christ changed that he changed it from a

36:49

Passover looking back at God's Providence through for the nation of Israel getting you know that through the slavery and in into freedom

36:59

And all the trials they went through to looking at it as a as a look at the new covenant

37:05

Right, so he changed that so the thinking is he would change that as well for the

37:12

You know and this is for those there's there are many who don't believe there will be a millennial kingdom and therefore they wouldn't see that continuing

37:20

I guess maybe I'm Tipping my hat since since Ethan is asking.

37:28

What's my end times you I'm definitely Pro -millennial if there is a millennium

37:35

I am all for it. So that's that would be my I would be

37:43

I would be pre -millennial Pre -tribulational is where I lean. I don't make a big deal of it because I think it's it's not something we're gonna be

37:51

So be able to be in hindsight. We're gonna see it very clearly. I mean

37:57

Just like in in the Old Testament Before the first coming of Christ people didn't see all of the details between the first and the second coming clearly

38:07

I think the same thing is is gonna be for us. I Know there's a lingering. I'm upsetting probably a lot of people because they think like they got it down pat

38:17

Yeah, that's a larger reason that my eschatology is as yet unformed. I'm I'm still open to things

38:24

I'm still interested in some possibilities, but it's so hard to know when you look especially looking through Revelation What's symbolic what's allegory, you know?

38:34

It's very difficult to know and for me it comes down to Whatever I believe is gonna happen in the end times will have little to no impact on how

38:44

I live my life today The decisions that I'm making as a Christian today, you know, I mean, it's enough for me to just try to follow

38:50

Jesus and Try not to sin and try to keep things in order in my life

38:56

You know what? I mean as a believer today that I just trust God at the end Whatever happens is gonna be amazing now in dealing with You know

39:06

Robert's book tourism the question you asked Nicholas actually is very important because the the thing that we end up seeing is when

39:15

Israel was taken into the Babylonian captivity right and this the God promised that this was going to be a judgment on them because the fact that for 70

39:25

Sabbatical years they were ignoring the sabbatical year God was gonna put them into 70 years of captivity

39:32

But one of the things that he said with it is that he would basically cure them of their idolatry

39:39

That during this captivity that was going to be resolved and it was

39:44

I mean We never see Israel as a nation going back into idolatry like they were before that captivity

39:50

But when they returned to the land And what you end up seeing is the rebuilding of the the temple

39:58

Well first during that time of captivity you you had the beginnings of the synagogues and the changing of the the

40:08

System with the Pharisees rising up in the Sadducees. You don't see that in the Old Testament They're those groups don't exist one being more the political group the

40:17

Sadducees the Pharisees being more the religious group So you had your Republicans and Democrats right there.

40:23

See it's nothing's changed And so What would you end up seeing though?

40:28

Is that you had this rise, but then after 70 AD When the temple was destroyed

40:36

Just like in the time when they're in captivity. They had to come up with some way. How do we offer sacrifices and it was a

40:45

Shifting in the in 70 AD you start seeing the shift to what we would refer to as Rabbinical Judaism where it's the rise of Obeying Torah, and that's what they would say obeying the law

40:57

And so now and I've written about this in my book. What do they believe that with Judaism today?

41:05

Salvation is seen is Obeying the law they've replaced the sacrifices because they can't do that anymore with law -keeping and and the actually the the most

41:18

Yeah, yeah, that's the book. Hey, you got a copy I Got it. Oh wait. No, I don't have a copy on my bookshelf anymore it's packed in a one of like 90 box.

41:30

Oh, you got a copy everyone's You really should read it Andrew it's a fantastic it's a good book

41:40

But the thing the thing that you have to realize in is that there was a shift That shift is what's you know, people read the

41:49

Old Testament thinks that's Judaism I think that what you see with the Torah Torah I'm trying to remember

41:55

Robert how you were worded in the book tourists Alright, yeah tourists. It's just hard for me to say because it's a new word for me, but the tourists those that are

42:05

Christians that want to put themselves back under the law The thing that I always find interesting is they're not following the law of the

42:14

Old Testament Right. Many of them are following the law of the rabbis So Robert, maybe you could you could address that issue because I think that'd be helpful for folks

42:25

Yeah, I actually learned a lot about that. I would talked with two different Groups of folks that are actually based in Israel.

42:32

One of them is a Jewish organization That and I asked them what is the

42:38

Jewish position on the end times and the rebuilding, you know Ever since the the temple was destroyed in 80 70

42:45

You can't technically live a truly Torah observant lifestyle So what do you do now and what's your view of the end times and they were explaining that there's all kinds of Things that they're doing now.

42:56

I didn't even know this too. Like for example, they are they've still practiced the sack Sacrificial rituals in Jerusalem to make sure that that skill or that art isn't lost

43:07

And I and I think it was back in the year 2000 2001 they had an actual Pesach Passover Sacrifice made like it within sight of the

43:17

Temple Mount and that was kind of a big deal So they're they're they're holding on and they believe that if the temple is not rebuilt before the

43:26

Messiah comes because again They don't believe Jesus was the Messiah It will be rebuilt then and all of the laws all 613 mitzvot will be returned back into service including all the sacrificial laws, which is kind of interesting because Well, if you if you take the

43:42

Christian position What's the point and I think you kind of brought that up? The other group that I spoke to in based out of Israel is a messianic

43:51

Jewish organization called one for Israel Fantastic resource. They've got some really brilliant scholars

43:58

There that have spoken about this idea that that In Judy and for example,

44:05

I should mention to that one for Israel as messianic Jews, they still celebrate the Feasts because they see it as a great way to in the feasts themselves like you mentioned

44:15

Andrew they see the foreshadowing of Christ and they feel that it's a great way to honor the Jewish culture and There is not there's no

44:23

Technical reason why they shouldn't honor Those those sorts of a lot of those feasts celebrate what

44:29

God did obviously, you know Passover and the escape But they see now they see now Christ in Passover as the modern version but they obviously don't do the sacrifices and they don't think the sacrifices should return in the end times, but They they did a great job of pointing out this switch to rabbinical

44:48

Judaism I have a I have the story in my book too. They go through the Talmud and they and they bring up a bunch of Stories that are really interesting

44:58

From from a modern perspective. There's there and I'm gonna paraphrase it here, but you can get the full story in my book but there is a

45:05

There was a temple curtain or sheet That they would that that they would put out during Passover and it would magically this is now this is not in Scripture This is in the

45:16

Talmud, which they consider, you know, it's an important part of Judaism Christians may not know that What's that Jewish people would consider that as authoritative as Scriptures from a

45:27

Judaism. Yeah. Yeah. So what the the story goes that there was a white fabric

45:32

I think it was a sheet or a veil or something but that they would put it out during Passover and overnight it would magically turn red as if the sheet was taking on the blood of the sacrifices and after the temple

45:46

Was destroyed in 8070 according to the Talmud That that sheet never turned red again that that piece of fabric it stayed it stayed white and they couldn't understand why but of Course the

45:59

Jews that had converted at the time and that were now Christians and now following Yeshua They believed it was because the one final sacrifice the once -for -all sacrifice as it says in Hebrews 8 13

46:10

Was Jesus and this was proof of it So it's interesting that there's little sort of supporting ancillary evidence in that in that others in that other sacred scriptures that Talk about maybe this was a huge shift in my personal opinion.

46:25

Is that? God knew what was God knew what was going on. Jesus predicted that the temple would be destroyed

46:33

It came to pass in 8070 and it's almost like God said All right. There you go.

46:38

The road is now closed. I want you to take this other road I want I want you to follow

46:44

Jesus. There's my my Messiah came and now I don't know if that I don't know if the

46:51

Messiah took the turn and And the Jews wanted to keep going straight or other way around but either way

46:56

I feel like there was a kind of period at the end of the sentence when the temple was destroyed so and then this is one of the things

47:02

I argue with these with my tourist friends about is that Even if you wanted to you couldn't live a

47:08

Torah observant lifestyle and and that's one of the things they really are there they have a lot of pride about that that the fact that they are

47:14

Observing Torah and and Shabbat and all that stuff. So Nicholas anything else?

47:23

um No, not not really as far as regarding that question I don't want to I don't want to go off topic with what you guys are talking about tonight

47:32

So maybe I can well China next week well I'll keep you in the backstage and You can always put things in the private chat if you want to come back in and have another question

47:41

How old's the baby? Elijah is four months going on five pretty soon.

47:48

It's our first. So he's a Right now he's in one of those asleep regression stages. So we're having a really hard time

47:55

I got really just rooting out a lot of sin of anger and just impatience and Yeah That stage so, you know, there's two very there's two things

48:05

God uses to sanctify us the most in our life One is marriage and two is children

48:14

Exactly Congratulations Yeah, God's been really good because we were actually in a position where we were told without medical intervention

48:23

It wasn't gonna happen and then two weeks after we finish our perspectives class

48:29

We found out we were pregnant. It's just like what in the world because we thought that we were gonna start pursuing

48:36

Overseas missions to like unengaged and reach people groups and so it's kind of just like well, maybe not right now

48:42

So right now I'm kind of just focusing on Apologetics and just evangelism. So that's

48:47

I've got a lot of questions as I read the word because Yeah, so To answer those questions.

48:54

So yeah. Yeah Australia on your on your wall there So actually here maybe

49:01

I can turn my camera real quick so what it is, it's actually a world map Oh, you should see it there

49:09

Out of context even Andrew that's impressive There's little itty -bitty

49:15

Hawaii, it looks like a bee on the wall It's a lot bigger than Hong Kong. I don't see that at all

49:21

Yeah, so we actually got that from I think we got it from Ukraine. My wife ordered it online.

49:27

So Pretty cool. Just a good reminder to be praying for for the world. So yeah, that is cool

49:32

But yeah, love your ministry Andrew a big benefit to me in my walk lately, especially as I talk to co -workers

49:39

Weekly, there's a lot of challenges that come up. So I will chime in Lord willing

49:45

Next week. Yeah. Yeah Next week. I was gonna announce this later, but next week will

49:55

Dr. Svesh was gonna be here. He requests me. Come on and talk about the topic should

50:00

Christians vote for Trump? Yes, that'll be fun so Nicholas I'll put you in the backs in the backstage just let me know if you want to come back in with another question and Mr.

50:16

Batman is back. He dropped out, but he's back. So bring him in Good evening

50:23

Mr. Batman Yeah, I was trying to what's what's the what's his real name that Batman Adam West?

50:30

No. No, that would be Bruce Wayne Bruce Wayne. Oh, you're still in the world. Okay. Gotcha Yeah, see this is how pop culture literate

50:39

I am. I was gonna ask you. Mr. West what your question was, but yeah, that's all right Name I get the name

50:47

Batman very honestly, I've been a Batman collector ever since I was about 10 years old I've been collecting

50:52

Batman paraphernalia anything with a Batman symbol on it now I collected my wife Robin and she is the prize of my collection.

51:00

So together we are Batman and Robin. Oh Nice, and if you'd like to know more about me, you can visit my website at mr

51:07

Batman calm where I do teach science and apologetics for all ages well, it you know, we

51:13

I got I put up the comment from Chris Han holds who he's Captain America and He says he saw the

51:21

Bat signal Combine that it's DC and Marvel.

51:26

It's two different comic. Oh, I don't get that. I Yeah, Chris Chris will correct me later.

51:35

I have no fear. I will I will hear it on his podcast How I don't know the difference between DC and I know the difference between Star Trek and Star Wars.

51:45

Okay, there we go That's all you need right there Because now with the coronavirus we're having to do the

51:52

Vulcan salute to keep from shaking hands We do the live long and prosper and that happens to be a

51:58

Hebrew blessing as well. So that works out. Well It's actually, you know, it is kind of funny Everyone in California when

52:05

I was out of California started doing this elbow thing instead of even like Beginning of the week people were doing a fist pump and by the end of the week everyone's doing this elbow bump

52:15

I'm actually a teacher at an elementary school and I'm teaching my children. It's because first graders

52:21

Especially they want to come up and give you hugs and they are got snot running down and they touch everything and you know

52:26

I'm like no, no, no, no. No, here go boys and girls. We're gonna do the virtual hug so I have them hold out their arms and I just say

52:33

Hug hug hug and they do a little move and the one little boy did not want to do it And so I said what's the matter and he likes dinosaurs and I said, come on Let's do the

52:42

Tyrannosaurus rex and I held up my arms real close to my chest and I said hug hug hug and he really liked that So as long as they don't touch me,

52:48

I'm fine Yeah, understood so what questions do you have for tonight?

52:55

Well, I was gonna ask why do we not keep the Sabbath? That's a really good one

53:03

Matter of fact, that was the that was the one Commandment that I had the most difficulty understanding and as I dove into it,

53:11

I thought In my discussions with tourism, I thought well, this might be one where I have to give them

53:16

I have to concede the point Because they celebrate Saturday Sabbath So this the the

53:23

Sabbath obviously is part of the cover the Ten Commandments It's the fourth commandment But also as I'm sure you know

53:29

It predates that even it's goes back to creation and the rhythm God set up for life the six great six and then one so But then interestingly we get into the

53:40

New Testament and we say and we see Paul telling us Well, don't let anyone judge you by a Sabbath day Actually, I think what he's saying there is don't let anybody judge you for keeping the

53:50

Sabbath and keeping the festivals Because he's talking to people who are actually in a very pagan area

53:56

That are now these people who are keeping the Sabbaths and keeping the festivals are being judged for doing so Do you um?

54:04

Mr. Batman, yes What's the real real name if you want to share it or no Jim Jim Barber?

54:10

Okay. Yeah, just so I have a Boy, do you know sure all my information is on my website for anybody who's interested?

54:17

I'm very open and honest about who I am. Do you keep do you? worship on Saturdays I Keep Sabbath.

54:24

Is that what you're talking about? But I don't have a church in my area that actually performs what's called a holy convocation on the

54:31

Sabbath So I'll worship every day I go to church on Sunday because that's when the people around here go to church

54:36

But I do my wife and I do keep the Sabbath. We keep it. Holy. We don't work We don't make anybody else work.

54:42

We don't spend any money and we spend time with our relationship with God and with each other That's beautiful.

54:48

And the view you just Espoused would actually be similar to the Presbyterian view by the way

54:55

Some Saturday Well, not on Saturday, but but they will have that they'll keep the they will say that there's that's they'll view

55:02

Sunday as a day To keep holy where they won't they won't work and they won't ask anyone else to work

55:08

Sure, but and I understand their reasoning behind that but let me ask you a question Does the

55:14

Bible say to keep the first day of the week holy or the seventh day? Holy? Yes in the

55:19

Old Testament Well, that's the Bible in it Yes, but it mentions yeah

55:26

So so you start to see in the New Testament you see the Apostles meeting on the first day of the week

55:31

What does differences that have to do with what the Sabbath see if you actually do something that changes the

55:38

Old Testament? Are you familiar with Deuteronomy 13? And again, if you have somebody who comes and proclaims something that again

55:45

Moses is not proclaimed Then you've got a problem because that violates the Deuteronomy 13 test

55:51

Well, so here's where I would kind of challenge that is that Jesus came and did things that changed the

55:57

Old Testament How so? Well, no sacrifices aren't required anymore when he well, that's because the temple is no longer in existence

56:06

But again, that's happening in the spiritual temple right now, but that's irrelevant. Where did he change the

56:12

Sabbath Jim Jim? We got we want to have dialogue. So sure. I'm happy with that.

56:17

But I want to stay focused on the Sabbath Yes, I'm finished. Let me finish that out I mean I will say we mentioned one earlier the

56:24

Lord's Supper would be an example where he changed Passover to to some different go ahead Actually didn't but okay

56:31

Okay. So so here's here's what I ended up doing when I was looking into this just to kind of let you know Kind of where how

56:36

I arrived at what I arrived at. I did a comprehensive systematic look at the

56:42

Ten Commandments in the New Testament, so Where are they mentioned I'm looking at where they're either clearly taught endorsed

56:52

Repeated verbatim. So sure the way the Ten Commandments break down the first three commandments They're not repeated directly, but they're clearly taught and they're clearly endorsed

57:01

The last six commandments of the Ten Commandments are literally repeated verbatim from the

57:07

Torah the commandment about the Sabbath though Is it's not repeated. It's not endorsed.

57:12

It's not taught now I'm not suggesting that that means that it's no longer valid, but I'm saying it's it gives us pause

57:20

Because in the New Testament the Sabbath which you know when we talk about Jesus and all the teachings related of the

57:25

Sabbath It's referred to more often as a source of controversy with the leaders of Israel than it is actually a commandment to be kept

57:35

So we start looking at that. We start looking at the idea that as the New Testament unfolds

57:41

We not we see that the Apostles are not only taught they taught Jews in the synagogues, right? Because that was so there's this let me pause for a second.

57:48

There's a whole chapter in my book about this idea of The crossover box

57:53

So this is this time in history from Jesus ministry until the temple destruction in 80 70 where both systems were running in parallel Judaism and Christianity And I go to that in further detail in the book

58:06

But during this time what you start to see is they started they started meeting as Christians on the first day of the week

58:12

And so you mean you look at like Colossians chapter 2 right that talks about the Sabbath being passed It shows that the old

58:19

Sabbath or in Greeks like in Greek, I guess it was plural the Sabbaths are passed away and then we look at that again the apostolic practice

58:28

Frequently meeting on the first day and we begin to see a new pattern emerging Whereas the

58:34

Jews rested on the seventh day Christians rest and started worshiping on the on the first day now the question is is that Is that heretical is does that break the law of God do we did

58:49

Here's here's kind of the two distinctions Do we need to do we need to obey the Sabbath? Strictly as it was written in the

58:55

Old Testament in the law of Moses or is the concept of the Sabbath bigger than the law of Moses and I argue that it even predates the law of Moses and what it looks to is the six and one

59:07

Rhythm that was the rhythm of Israel. It was the rhythm of the Torah, but Now because Jesus came and we are no under no longer under the law.

59:16

The Old Covenant has passed away We we would be wise to continue practicing that I think that's beautiful that you're doing that and I think that's a

59:24

Something we miss a lot in the Western culture is this idea of intentionally setting sighting setting aside a day to worship

59:31

God But does that day? Have to be in God's eyes The last day of the week

59:37

That's the question and I came down on the side that it doesn't matter which day of the specific day of the week it is

59:43

It's but it is wise of us to enter into that rhythm in Hebrews It says that that Jesus was the rest that the final rest that we entered into So that's kind of that's where I landed on very lovely very lovely dissertation it's irrelevant, but it's very lovely

59:59

Have you heard about let's see this is Exodus chapter 12 verse 14 where it says and this day will be a memorial for you and You are to celebrate it as a feast to the

01:00:10

Lord as a lasting ordinance for the generations to come Some translations even translate this into a perpetual ordinance

01:00:18

How do you deal with the fact that the Sabbath is a perpetual ordinance what does perpetual mean

01:00:24

Yes, so who was that written to? It's written to Israel, sir. Well, would you agree that all the laws are written to Israel?

01:00:32

No Really? So who are the laws written to because when hang a second the laws of Moses come from God Who did

01:00:42

Moses get them from? Okay There were laws before there was a nation of Israel Yes, sir

01:00:50

The Torah pre -exists its giving at Sinai as a matter of fact Cain and Abel knew what sacrifices to offer

01:00:58

That's why Abel had a good sacrifice and Cain did not again. They knew what to do right from the very beginning

01:01:04

That's called see the word Torah literally means Instruction God has given us in his instruction and he wants us to obey it now

01:01:13

Once again Deuteronomy 13 if you look at that particular Scripture This actually tells us exactly what it looks like when you have a prophet in your midst

01:01:24

Deuteronomy 13 verse 1 Actually says let me get there real quick if a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder and that sign of wonder that He tells you comes to pass and then he says let's go after other gods

01:01:40

Which ye have not known and let us serve them You shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams for the

01:01:47

Lord Your God is testing you to know whether you love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul

01:01:54

You shall walk after the Lord your God and fear him and keep his commandments and obey his voice

01:02:00

You shall serve him and hold fast to him now How do you get that any of these laws have changed see if God has written it in stone in his finger

01:02:10

When he gave it to us at Sinai, it was actually given to us before that but he codified it in stone at that point

01:02:17

So everybody could know it without any wonder So where in the

01:02:22

New Testament does he do the same thing by cancelling these laws because you think he would do that favor If he's gonna write it, okay

01:02:28

Yeah, that would be one to look at if you I would love to get back to your original question about why why does why

01:02:36

Does it not mean forever if it says perpetual? Yes, sir While you're while you're looking that up So my response to you would be the would be that in that passage that like for example, if you look at exit

01:02:49

Exodus I think it's 31 16 about the Sabbath being Celebrated throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant when we look in the

01:03:00

Old Testament the Hebrew word for for Perpetual or that's translated to English is the word

01:03:06

Olam Which which means perpetual sometimes but in English you think of the word perpetual

01:03:11

It means kind of continuing and lasting forever and all that kind of stuff, right? Well, the thing is in ancient

01:03:17

Hebrew the word Olam is not so cut and dry, right? Ancient Hebrew had about 9 ,000 words current

01:03:24

English has about 2 million words So they use that word Olam to mean a lot of things.

01:03:29

It could mean a long duration sometimes it meant forever and always sometimes it just meant An unknown quantity of time or a long quantity of time.

01:03:38

Sometimes it yes, sir. I agree with that definition completely Okay, but again, that's irrelevant, sir Let me finish up my point

01:03:46

The word like Olam hold up one second. Hold on sir, Jim. I muted you We're gonna try to have a discussion so we we let you explain your your view

01:03:58

I want Robert to finish what he's saying and then you can you can ask a question That's how we kind of do things here.

01:04:05

Just so you know, I know it's your first time in so, okay, so And I'll be quick and I'd love to hear your response

01:04:11

Jim. So Here's what I'm getting at with a range of meaning about the word

01:04:17

Olam and why I think it is actually relevant When we look at something that's When we look at something that for example that uses that word

01:04:24

Olam or perpetual or whatever we want to call it How do we know? If that should be which which translation, you know, which meaning we should

01:04:35

Assume for that translation. So if we look at something like here Exodus 31 16

01:04:40

So the sons of Israel shall observe the Sabbath to celebrate the Sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant

01:04:46

Okay, so if we're in if we're looking at it from the lens of Judaism which rejects the

01:04:52

New Testament and of the scope of Our context, but that's not what Judaism does that's two different things Okay, Jim, I'm muting you again,

01:05:02

I'm almost done Yeah If we're looking at it from the context of Judaism, which says what could this word possibly mean and they say

01:05:09

I think we think It means perpetual forever, you know a thousand generations, whatever it might mean When you take that word now and add the

01:05:18

New Testament Which Christians believe is as much part of the Bible as anything else You now have a wider context and you have the

01:05:25

Messiah and you have Jesus coming and you look at that and you say, okay if God has chosen to sovereignly reveal his will to mankind over time and and You only look at the

01:05:36

Old Testament You might reasonably conclude that meant forever when you look at the New Testament and Hebrews 8 13 and Jesus talking about well when you look at the through the through the lens of the

01:05:48

New Testament and we understand that the new covenant has happened that things Have changed we now look back and say oh, you know what that could not have meant that that the

01:05:58

Sabbath or the old laws were meant to remain literally until the end of all time because Hebrews the book of Hebrews clearly says that the old covenant is now

01:06:09

Passed away and it also says that when you have a when you when you have it Jesus is our new priest and when you have a new priest a new priesthood which is in the

01:06:17

Minds of the author of Hebrew a superior priesthood It also brings with it a new law. So that's what

01:06:23

I would point to so I'd love to hear your feedback Jim Yes, sir. Now once again, can you show me because we're gonna use some hermeneutics

01:06:31

Can you show me anywhere in the Old Testament where that word perpetual is not perpetual? Because again,

01:06:38

I understand you're appealing again, sir And again when we're talking about God's laws where any of God's laws have now, wait a minute

01:06:44

I thought I was gonna get to have a talk here. Hang on a second. Hang on a second, sir Be quiet now. Hang on a second. Now, listen, there you go.

01:06:51

I will mute you because it's not your show You asked the question. I'm gonna give you the answer Jet Genesis 6 for the word

01:06:59

Olam is used referring to those who were of old Okay, Deuteronomy, I'll get just rattle off all the ones where it's used not referring to perpetual

01:07:11

Genesis 6 for Deuteronomy 32 7 Joshua 24 to 1st

01:07:17

Samuel 27 8 Job 22 15 Psalm 20 247 24 9 25 6 41 13 77 990 verse 2 103 verse 17 106 verse 48 1952

01:07:37

Verse 3 Proverbs 8 23 Proverbs 22 28

01:07:43

Proverbs 23 10 and Ecclesiastes 110 should I go on for more?

01:07:51

Bob blah blah blah blah The fact of the matter is there show me any place where any ordinance of God is done away with the fact of the matter is

01:08:01

When we were talking about no, you don't you told me you showed me where different places that word is used in different ways

01:08:06

I agree with that You're using different references to talk about something Show me where this is referred to the law where the law is ever done away with show me where God Abrogates any law any time anywhere now you keep appealing to the cross and at now all of a sudden we celebrate

01:08:25

This Sabbath on the first day of the week, sir Can you count to three because I'm gonna tell you that Jesus himself actually gave the prophecy of Jonah where it says for justice

01:08:35

Jonah was in the belly of the great fish for three days and three nights So the Son of Man will be in the heart of the earth for three days and three nights now, sir

01:08:44

How do you get three days and three nights from Friday afternoon before sundown to Sunday morning before dawn?

01:08:52

Sure Before you answer This is a common tactic

01:08:59

I want folks what we do on the show is teach people how to identify and help people with Harmonics didn't son you guys can who are watching or listening can can see notice what

01:09:09

Jim's doing He asked a question when his answer when it was answered overwhelmingly He changed the question and said it what couldn't be answered then when that gets answered he switches to another question

01:09:21

It's a logical fallacy known as a red herring So you're shifting what comes from, huh?

01:09:30

I mean you're using logic right doesn't logic come from the God of the Bible and isn't he totally consistent throughout time?

01:09:36

He does not change Malachi says I am Yahuvah. I change not that has nothing to do with you what you do

01:09:42

Because what we're talking about here is we're actually talking about how the Word of God So Jim what what we're trying to expose to you in me saying this is

01:09:53

You're employing logical fallacies when you employ logical fallacies

01:09:58

You can't possibly cannot possibly by your own what you just said be agreeing with God because God is logical

01:10:06

You're not being logical in your argumentation. I want you to be logical. I want you to make some good argumentation

01:10:12

It's not that I'm we're not here to try to win a debate We want a good discussion, but you can't talk over it doesn't make it for good discussion

01:10:21

You got to stay on topic and that's what Robert asked if we could do. All right So we're gonna we're gonna try to do that.

01:10:27

Does that sound okay? Sure so let's stay on topic and show me in the New Testament where Messiah himself did away with the

01:10:35

Sabbath because if Anybody do you know what Stephen was stoned? You know what Paul was, you know

01:10:40

He all the things he went through because people thought he was trying to do away with the Torah, you know when?

01:10:47

Later on in the in the Acts also in other areas of Scripture You see Paul you see Peter keeping the

01:10:52

Torah keeping kosher when you have the Peter's vision Where the the cloth comes down three times with the clean and unclean animals the common animals in it

01:11:02

This is ten years after Messiah. It's resurrection So once again Show me where Messiah tells us that we do not keep the

01:11:10

Sabbath on the Sabbath now I go back to the three days and three nights because this is what got me Delvin death this path because we have to understand that we have been fed a line and again it's very easily understood if you can count to three because Jesus himself said there would be three days and Three nights now

01:11:32

Could we pause there and stay on this topic of three days and three nights, okay Okay, so I'll let you finish your thought

01:11:39

I just wanted to make sure because you mentioned a lot of stuff and it's it's fun and I'd love to jump in but I Just kind of want to pick one spot.

01:11:45

So You want to complete your idea about the three days and three nights? Certainly again, the three days and the three nights are very important because it's the only prophecy that Messiah himself said

01:11:55

That would be the sign that he is the Messiah and I love how he said it You know the Pharisees come to him said give us a sign that you're the

01:12:02

Messiah and is his most loving and compassionate voice He said you wicked and adulterous generation no sign will be given to you other than the sign of Jonah for just as Jonah was in the belly of the great fish for three days and three nights

01:12:15

So the Son of Man will be in the heart of the earth for three days and three nights Now if you look at it on a chart,

01:12:21

I don't care how you count it Einstein couldn't do this You cannot get three days and three nights between Friday afternoon at sundown and Sunday morning before dawn.

01:12:31

Sure Okay, so I guess my response to that would tell you What we're dealing with here is not a math problem.

01:12:38

It's a language issue There are several Hebraic idioms if you're familiar with them such as three days and three nights after three days on the third day

01:12:49

That all mean essentially the same thing and and I'll actually give you scriptural evidence for that If you look at Matthew 27 62 through 64 it says the following The next day the one after preparation day the chief priests and the

01:13:03

Pharisees went to Pilate sir They said we remember that while he was still alive that deceiver said and I'm quoting after three days.

01:13:11

I will rise again The passage continues. So give the order for the tomb to be made secure until the third day

01:13:19

Otherwise his disciples may come and steal the body and tell the people that he has been raised from the dead So what we have here is the

01:13:26

Jewish official officials using the phrase after three days and Until the third day synonymously, it tells us that they meant them to mean the same thing they use those idioms to mean the same thing and elsewhere in the book of Matthew Yeshua even has other predictions that he would rise on the third day.

01:13:45

Look at Matthew 16 21 where it's where from that time on Jesus began to explain to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders the chief priests and the teachers of the law and that he must be

01:13:57

Killed and on the third day be raised to life Matthew 17 22 the

01:14:03

Son of Man is going to be delivered into the hands of men They will kill him in on the third day. He will be raised to life

01:14:09

Matthew 20 18 and 19 on the third day He will be raised to life. So if you use your math skills

01:14:15

Fridays the first day Saturdays the second day The third day is Sunday The only way to reconcile what you're saying with all the other scriptures and there's tons of them here

01:14:25

Is the is this understanding of the Hebraic idiom? We're not talking it when then they said on the third day in three days three days and three nights

01:14:35

Those all referred to in that in that Middle Eastern culture the same time frame

01:14:42

Argument when I was doing that same argument, sir It doesn't work Do is you have to look at the actual calendar the

01:14:50

Hebrew calendar itself? This Messiah was crucified on the first month of the 14th day. That would have been a

01:14:56

Wednesday He would have arisen on the 17th day Month of the Aviv you can look this up yourself there.

01:15:02

Okay, let me tell me a statement one Sir, once there one moment, sir So that would have been a Sabbath that would have been the

01:15:08

Sabbath that Christ rose on the reason that the women find an empty Before dawn on Sunday morning is because he was risen on Saturday afternoon before sundown between the evenings.

01:15:20

Okay, gentlemen 915 my time and I got a teacher early in the morning.

01:15:26

All right So when Jesus said I will be in like Jonah in the belly of the fish three days and three nights

01:15:33

That was one thing three days and three nights 72 hours when he says That he must that he will rise again on the third day, how do you reconcile those two utterances from Jesus?

01:15:45

Well, sir He's actually pointing to the fact of what he said as his only prophetic statement that he would be the

01:15:51

Messiah After three days is also three days and three nights.

01:15:56

That's 72 hours Batman calm I actually did a whole sunny school lesson at my old church on the very issue

01:16:04

I'm gonna I'm gonna mute you just for because I Understand the tactic it is a roughshod tactic of being a steamroller

01:16:11

Just plowing through things And well now he's gone. So now

01:16:16

I guess we could we could discuss what he but for folks I mean D I want you to recognize what he was doing there because we want to educate you guys so you can see that the tactics people use

01:16:28

Rapid fire give a lot of details it it sounds overwhelming But I want to pick apart this and look at what he did 72 hours

01:16:39

What scripture verse says it was 72 hours not a single one In fact, what you realize is that most people do not understand the way

01:16:48

Jewish people would see the beginning of a day It's not at midnight It's at the sundown

01:16:56

When was Christ crucified? Well, he wasn't crucified After sundown it was before sundown.

01:17:03

How do we know that because they needed to get his body? Prepared because it the next day

01:17:10

Was a day of rest He's arguing that but he made the statement of what day of the the month it was and said that was a

01:17:20

Sabbath Notice Robert asked him support the argument. This is what you see people do when they're doing rapid fire they want to steamroll you with what sounds like a lot of evidence and Yet, they don't want to support any of it and can't go ahead

01:17:35

Robert. I was gonna say so let's Let's let that argument play out and I agree with you that that that is what he was doing.

01:17:43

He wasn't interested in Reconciling the two the two different types of comments, but here's the bigger point for me

01:17:51

What was what was he getting at was he telling us that Jesus was crucified on a different day that he was resurrected on a different day

01:17:59

And how was he gonna tie this in to have something to do with the Sabbath because from the

01:18:05

Christian perspective since in the New Testament we are no longer under the

01:18:11

Sabbath in terms of a day of the week that it has to be celebrated and Since something happened on the first day of the week on the

01:18:18

Sunday, which was essentially the most important event in the history of all humanity the event that split history in two

01:18:27

Jesus was resurrected and brought to life on the first day of the week So this is why this is why

01:18:33

Christians have morphed over to celebrate the Sabbath or what we call the Lord's Day on a

01:18:39

Sunday What we what he was trying to get at with the three days and three nights is a mystery to me and I actually wrote

01:18:45

About it in my book, which is why I had some of those verses kind of at hand. It was it's a comment I heard consistently

01:18:50

There's even these pretty charts to go along with it that show the sundown and when the day starts and whatnot But there really is no

01:18:58

Larger point underneath that Three -day math assertion, you know what I mean? Or at least there if there is one

01:19:03

I don't get what he's driving at Well, and and let me address let's see if I can find the comment put it up here

01:19:12

Here we go Shall Luke I might have mispronounced the first name.

01:19:18

Forgive me. I said wrong. He was buried on the day of preparation Friday Okay, this is a problem that a lot of people have

01:19:27

What was the day of preparation? Okay, what is the Sabbath there the

01:19:33

Sabbath was not only Saturday The Sabbath was also the day of Passover.

01:19:40

That's a Sabbath. That's what it would be called also the day of Unleavened bread.

01:19:48

That's a Sabbath So these are Sabbath. So the fact that there's a day of preparation is it for the

01:19:58

Saturday Sabbath or the Sabbath that was for the the

01:20:04

Unleavened bread now what we have in Scripture God speaking

01:20:10

God's very word a Record that they worshipped on the first day. Why because that was the day

01:20:16

Christ rose So it it couldn't be no in for for for people

01:20:24

That are gonna try to say no it has to be on the Friday Well, then God is lying when

01:20:29

God is giving the test now when we do harmoneutics We have to make a distinction between what's prescriptive and descriptive so The Bible is not going to be in error in its description

01:20:43

Or in its prescriptions, but the fact that the Bible mentions that David had many wives doesn't mean we should have many wives

01:20:51

That's description. It's accurate in the fact that David had many wives, but here's a description Describing the fact that they worshipped on that day because that is the day

01:21:01

Christ rose Now we have that time frame. We know when that is.

01:21:06

We know why they worshipped on that day so What I think you saw is a

01:21:14

And for folks I encourage you to go back relisten to this and and watch what he was doing

01:21:19

Because when you start to pick up these tactics, you you'll see that a lot of people do these things

01:21:26

He wanted to yeah, it's difficult it being on the other side of the coin. It's difficult and as a younger man

01:21:32

I couldn't even do it to not jump in because You feel you already have the answers like he even said he said some disparaging remark about how he had dealt with that Whatever.

01:21:42

He said anemic argument a long time ago. So in his mind it was settled and while he was talking

01:21:48

I was praying And asking God to kind of show me What I should say and where I should say it and at the same time

01:21:55

I wanted to listen to what he had to say in case there was something for me to learn and I feel like that's a big problem that we have on both sides, but it's especially when we're out there trying to share the truth and It's almost like they have these priests pre -built snowballs that they're ready to just throw at you instead of actually

01:22:14

Breaking it down and discussing and saying oh you made a point. Let me respond to your point let me let me think if I agree with that a point or not, you know what

01:22:21

I mean to make like you like you Had to sort of you had to you had to Force it to be a discussion through the all -powerful mute button, but that's and and I get where he's coming from and I I Get frustrated on his behalf because I know he really wants to talk and talk like you said the steamroller thing

01:22:40

But I just pray that something that that we talked about Landed somewhere that it could grow.

01:22:47

Yeah, you know what I mean? Because I feel like he's probably This is me. This maybe isn't us

01:22:52

I'm not speaking for you Andrew But I give people the benefit of the doubt that they actually are interested in trying to find out the truth about God They're at least making an attempt.

01:23:01

That's why they'd show up and want to talk about that stuff So somewhere in there other than the guy who wants to win an argument.

01:23:07

I'm hoping was a guy that wants to find the truth Yeah, and and see There's when you have the rapid fire like that I mean, there's one thing he was making an argument that you have to have the

01:23:19

New Testament Say something in a very specific way about the Sabbath, right?

01:23:24

And if it doesn't say it that way Then it it's not true. Well the Mormons, sorry, the

01:23:30

Muslims do the same thing to us They say you show me where Jesus said I am

01:23:35

God worship me Yeah, that doesn't exist does it know but that doesn't mean he didn't claim to be

01:23:41

God when he said I am or the father and I are one right he Claims, but they didn't do it in the way they want now an interesting thing

01:23:50

He also said is that that the law was codified in stone?

01:23:58

Which law okay, there's five uses of law The that which was codified in stone was we know as the ten commandments

01:24:06

Yeah mentioned earlier. There's how many commandments? 613 yeah, okay in the

01:24:13

Old Testament. Yeah, it's still right there He's arguing for two different uses of law, which is a fallacy of equivocation.

01:24:21

He's equivocating on the word law Using him two different ways Right and then claim that the same

01:24:28

And what was interesting is that you paused to point out his logical fallacy of the red herring?

01:24:34

He didn't defend it or try to argue against it. He just kind of bounced off and went in a different direction

01:24:41

Did it again? Exactly double down. I thought that was interesting and again, you would hope someone would say well, wait a second

01:24:47

I don't think I'm doing that am I you know and pause that I had a lot of that God gave me lots of humble pie to eat while I was working on this tourism stuff because I do

01:24:56

Just openly I have that I have that tendency to want to win an argument It's that competitive nature and for me in the in the

01:25:03

Dealing and maybe it helped that these were my friends and then the folks that I that I kind of eventually ended up talking to They weren't my friends, but I sort of approached him that way to say look

01:25:14

I Don't know everything and I actually don't want to win an argument matter of fact money of them I even like the Jewish group in Jerusalem.

01:25:21

I said, I'm not gonna argue at all I just kind of want to know your position just you teach me I want to sit here and listen and when we don't have that when our hearts are hard It's hard for it's hard for us to ever learn we put a ceiling on ourselves, you know, yeah so I Think that I and I agree with you.

01:25:39

I don't know where he was gonna go with the whole 72 -hour thing other than to I think and I'm and this is hard because we don't have him here now but I think what he was trying to prove was that We were fed lies and we can't trust our interpretation of the

01:25:56

Bible Now this is another thing maybe you guys could pick up what he did he threw out the word hermeneutic

01:26:03

Did he actually apply any hermeneutics? No He mentioned the word it gives credibility and then he went rambling on just a whole bunch of statements of a whole bunch of claims

01:26:15

Without any support, right? Matter of fact, he totally tried to sidestep my hermeneutic on the word alum alum

01:26:22

Yeah, he wasn't interested in that and and what did he do he brings that up he

01:26:27

I mean He's the one that asked the question show me where that word is used Anywhere else now, I was gonna give him the one just the one verse

01:26:34

But since he was he kind of but I'm like I'm just gonna give you a whole bunch because and I didn't even give

01:26:41

I mean there's more than that the end of the usage Okay, right. It's used that way 48 times in the

01:26:49

Old Testament So, you know that was a I think a simple thing and for folks pick up what

01:26:57

Robert did with this There this is on and this is one of things I picked up in your book that I hadn't

01:27:04

Recognized and I thought was an excellent point You brought it up tonight the number of words in the

01:27:09

Hebrew language compared to other languages, whether it be Greek or English It's your you have a limited number of words, which means you're going to use words for multiple meanings

01:27:22

Yeah, exactly And I think that's an excellent argument that that you made Melissa dropped out.

01:27:29

I was I was just about to add her Okay, Melissa come back in. She had a question.

01:27:34

I think See if she put the question in here. She said she was reading about Leviticus So, I don't know if that was her question we'll see if she comes back in let me bring

01:27:47

Atomic Apologist in none other than the hat -wearing John Wilkinson.

01:27:52

How you doing, sir? Hey, I'm good. I'm good. I'm good and good. We'll put him backstage. Oh, I'm sorry

01:28:01

You mean man you are just mean It's okay, man. I got my leather my leather

01:28:09

Bible right here You know, I have my oh wait no my

01:28:18

Oh He's okay he's trying just because he got the nice Schuyler fiction, but I got a vision

01:28:30

You read Schuyler Well, I got I got my nice ESV heirloom here

01:28:37

And I know for a fact this one cost less than yours Okay Okay That's okay,

01:28:48

I just picked up Yesterday, I just picked up foundations of the Christian faith by by voice.

01:28:55

So I'm really happy about this and Then I also saw I also found

01:29:02

Van Til's Christian apologetics, so I'm really excited about this little guy right here.

01:29:08

Oh cool Yeah one by Bonson No by Van Til, okay,

01:29:16

I have Bonson's kind of collection of the Okay of the Van Til catalog Okay.

01:29:21

All right. All right, cool. John. Yeah gets your questions. Melissa's back in here. So again, make sure we have time for Okay, well you said earlier in the air on the beginning of the show there these

01:29:34

These guys they they recognize that Jesus was as human But they don't and they recognize him as as a

01:29:41

Messiah, but how do they get around Isaiah 53 or other major prophecies when it comes to That point exactly to Jesus I mean is it similar to what the

01:29:57

Jews do or is it I mean both of you guys can probably answer that but I mean Yeah, tourists are different in that aspect.

01:30:04

So Jews skip that forbidden chapter altogether, you know Well, we could synagogue you go through Isaiah 52 and stop halfway next week.

01:30:12

You're at 54 Torahism doesn't reject Isaiah 55. They actually embrace it and say look

01:30:18

Jesus was the suffering servant They embrace all of it, but somehow they interpret it to be mortal a mortal

01:30:24

Messiah Where Israel? Okay, sorry the the rabbis will interpret it as the nation of Israel So they right.

01:30:33

Yeah, they will deal with it And if you read through the text I mean just read Isaiah 52 the end of 52 into 53 and ask yourself.

01:30:42

Is this a person or a nation and I Just a simple reading I think makes it clear.

01:30:48

It's a person Yeah, but rabbi singer

01:30:55

So very interesting. There's a reason that Tovia will not debate

01:31:01

Michael Brown. They did do they did two debates One that was recorded

01:31:08

But Tovia did not want it released and from what I understand I mean, I've not been able to find it.

01:31:13

So I think I guess Michael Brown honored that but the second one one of the things that happened in debate was that That Michael Brown and I'm not a fan of Michael Brown focus some folks know that but Michael Brown said that there's rabbis who interpret

01:31:33

Isaiah 53 as referring to Messiah he said there are no passages like that and I Think I think

01:31:41

Michael Brown started it by saying well if if I find one Will you convert to Christianity and Tovia says yes, and if you can't find one, will you convert back to Judaism?

01:31:53

Well after that show he came up with four references of rabbis that refer to it and so He was very upset with that and I he he ended up saying that there was editing that was done

01:32:08

My understanding the editing was done. They both approved the edits. It was done to fit into a radio format but I from what

01:32:19

I understand from From Michael Brown. The issue was he produced that and Tovia didn't convert

01:32:26

Well, I was just gonna say when's Tovia's baptism? Yeah, well that's because God does the converting and not

01:32:33

Here we got evidential apologetics in every sub, right? So John anything else?

01:32:41

No, that's it. So Melissa can go ahead and jump in. So thanks a lot guys. Okay Great show.

01:32:47

Melissa in here. Melissa. Can you hear me? Yes, and Melissa does a show a podcast called

01:32:54

Truth Be Told Radio. I was gonna I wasn't I was like just gonna say truth be told then I went blank for a second

01:33:01

Yeah, it's on laptop radio website Truth Be Told Radio Sunday 2 p .m. to 4 p .m.

01:33:07

Pacific time. Okay, my question I was I think you guys kind of answered it but I'm gonna say anyway,

01:33:13

I was reading Leviticus like There'll be certain laws and I'll say this will be a statute forever and so then then

01:33:23

I'm saying like how could that be? I mean, obviously we know that Jesus like Way back.

01:33:30

I mean like like he I don't know how to call it abrogated or something Yeah, and I was trying to address this with Jim When he brought it up and and this is

01:33:44

I mean he used the word hermeneutics. I want to apply some hermeneutics so in Is in Exodus chapter 12 verse 14, which is what he referred to that passage

01:33:55

And I think you may even put in They shall be a memorial day that you shall keep as a fest as a feast

01:34:05

To the Lord throughout your generations as a statute forever

01:34:11

Yeah, we'll keep it as a feast and and the word actually, you know forever the statute as forever

01:34:18

Appears a couple times there now The the question I asked him is who is it being written to?

01:34:26

another word This was being written to a nation of Israel Okay, if anyone's been listening to my rap report podcast that the weekly one that drops

01:34:37

We're in we dropped two parts of a four part pod Series on what is the church and we've been addressing these things because this is a big thing you end up seeing and this is what he was struggling with I'm gonna be curious to what

01:34:53

Robert ends up responding with but the the you have Israel the elect and and we were talking earlier in the show about being grafted in that's the elect those believers

01:35:05

And then you have the nation of Israel People that are not elect but they're both the nation of Israel you have the same thing in the church and we're dealing with this in the podcast on the rap report podcast because I'm talking about the church the the visible and The invisible church or the local and universal so you have you have the elect church and then you have people that gathering

01:35:26

Are called the church, but they're not elect same nation of Israel so the question you have to first ask when interpreting is

01:35:35

Who wrote this and who's it being written to these are commands to the nation of Israel referring to both unbelievers and believers elect and non -elect they're both included in that and Once you see that difference

01:35:53

Okay, then the laws are not just for God's people. They were for a nation and And so the question then becomes why does that apply to a different group of people?

01:36:05

That are made up of elect and non -elect, but they're not the nation of Israel Okay, that's how

01:36:11

I would end up answering it Robert. That's an awfully good answer. Yeah I mean,

01:36:17

I would agree with that and I'm sorry. I was just was this Exodus 31 I can't remember the scripture that you mentioned the one

01:36:24

I referenced was and that he brought up was Exodus 12 14. Oh It's actually 1214 to 28 as it covers it.

01:36:35

Okay. I think I I think I responded to him about a different one But I believe it's the same Hebrew word. So I don't know if you heard any of that kind of explanation

01:36:45

I'm talking to Melissa if you heard that explanation to was named Jim Batman. Yeah, I was the same Okay.

01:36:51

Yeah, so that I would kind of respond to that way as well. Is that hermeneutics you need to start with as Andrew said who wrote it and to whom but we also need to understand when we look at it

01:37:03

We need to understand it in the context of the entire Bible the entire storyline of Scripture.

01:37:09

So if we find something later on that seems to contradict or Conflict with something we read earlier.

01:37:17

We need to make sure that we're resolving that conflict Within the context of all of Scripture, so we're because the

01:37:26

Bible is it does not lie It's not it's inerrant. So if there's a conflict that conflict is with us to try to harmonize and so the the point that I was making to Jim the

01:37:37

Batman guy was that when we see a word like forever in the Old Testament and later on we see something that was

01:37:46

That makes it appear that perhaps that thing doesn't exist anymore For example, the Levitical priesthood was supposed to be forever according to the

01:37:54

Old Testament It's no longer we know it went away with even if you don't want to be a

01:37:59

Christian you can admit There's no more Levitical priesthood after 80 70. So the Bible didn't lie about it.

01:38:05

What what does that mean? well now we need to go back and look at that Hebrew word alam and say maybe that wasn't being used in the

01:38:10

Until the very literal end of time maybe what it meant is for a long time or you know for an era or an epic kind of Concept too.

01:38:19

I would kind of want to point out is this idea that and this is a big thing with with the with the

01:38:26

Torah is is they they they tend to interpret New Testament events and things like Jesus but they limit the context of that interpretation only to only to the

01:38:37

That To knock or the Old Testament, right? So the analogy

01:38:42

I like to use it's like it's like the movie It's like the sixth sense if you saw that movie, right? So you go through the whole movie

01:38:49

Yeah ruining it for Benny is pretty old, but that's wrong Yeah so Near the end of the film, you know, you get that shocking revelation.

01:38:57

Oh my gosh the psychiatrist guy the Bruce Willis character He's been dead the whole time. Wow, that's crazy

01:39:03

So once you get that revelation now if you went back and watched the movie again, which I remember doing that a second time

01:39:10

All of a sudden you're looking for those clues because now you know what happens at the end So you're starting to see this stuff at the that the director put in there, you know, like Malcolm's wife was ignoring him

01:39:20

You're like wow, she's really mean. No, actually now that we look back. She couldn't see him because he was dead Yeah same the same concept holds true with the

01:39:27

New Testament now that we know that Jesus has come and that he's Inaugurated the New Covenant in his blood and all these shifts have taken place

01:39:36

He actually didn't abolish the law as it says in Matthew 5 17. He fulfilled the Old Testament So now we can go back from the beginning and say okay

01:39:44

What what must have that have meant when they said such -and -such would last forever So that's kind of what I'm talking about when

01:39:49

I'm talking about getting the wider context of the whole body of Scripture It's it's almost as you know

01:39:55

Many who would hold to Covenant theology would say that we interpret the Old Testament From the new it almost tourists want to interpret the new from the old

01:40:07

Right. Exactly. That's exactly. Yeah, that's great way. I should Get a new edition of my book out.

01:40:13

That was good You're exactly right because Jesus himself is the key that unlocks the meaning of every biblical text, right?

01:40:24

So he makes sense of the Old Testament and now and even and it's pointed to in the

01:40:29

New Testament that that the feasts and all that were a shadow of The real thing that was to come and Jesus was the real thing that they were pointing to Progressive Revelation instead of taking that which is right

01:40:44

They want to go back and say no. No, we got to interpret the what's newer the newer revelation from the older Yeah, I'm sorry

01:40:52

Melissa you were gonna say something. Yeah, I just saying like I'm reading a book now like it's Saying how like God is without passions like one one point.

01:41:02

It'll say God Regretted, but then it says and they're part that God doesn't regret.

01:41:08

Thanks. So it's like It's weird. It's like it's so you can't do it from the same

01:41:16

From our same point of view like as a human God's different Yeah, exactly.

01:41:22

And even beyond that I would urge you to Consider and we got in this a little bit with Jim consider the

01:41:28

Eastern culture in which that book was written Oh, yes, you know, I'm actually reading a great book right now misreading scripture with Western eyes

01:41:36

It's a good book and what it talks about is how we as Westerners Americans come to the book thinking in a

01:41:44

Western individualistic way Isn't necessarily wrong But we get so much more meaning if we unlock how an

01:41:51

Eastern culture and honor shame culture a collectivist culture How they would have intended and meant their stories to be understood to their audience.

01:41:58

It's really interesting It's called misreading scripture with Western eyes by rent e

01:42:06

Randolph Richards and Brandon J O 'Brien Brendan Okay, cool. Yeah That I would

01:42:12

I'd show it but unfortunately my books are packed Available tourism

01:42:19

Which you if you go to the website and you can get it on Amazon You can even get it in Kindle, but you know just I mean if you take a look at Robert He looks kind of hungry.

01:42:31

He needs to eat. So go directly to tourism book Dot -com and pick up a copy of tourism are

01:42:38

Christians required to keep the law of Moses My suggestion to you is to buy several copies because you're gonna run into a gym of your own

01:42:50

It's good to be able to give that to them and say here you go Read this and get in touch with Robert Yeah, give his his you know his blog site, you know

01:43:05

RL Solberg comm is it that's right. Yeah, I come and so give him that site

01:43:10

Just let them go there and in that way you can run for it. That's what I do Melissa Well, thank you very much

01:43:23

Let me bring in the last person that's been in here for a while here the Aussie Who with a great first name

01:43:30

Andrew, how are you brother? Well, we've got an apple from that's your bad.

01:43:37

Sorry. Do you have to swallow at the beginning? Okay, I Want to regress because I thought it was actually pretty funny.

01:43:46

Maybe we could end on the lighter. No meaning you said There was a per What was at the end of the

01:43:57

Covenant and how seven of them disappeared oh, yeah. Yeah. I just wanted to flesh that one out

01:44:05

We well, okay, so I was gonna go with it because I think Well what the guy was trying to say was that the

01:44:13

Ark has been discovered it was it was under a mountain that they had several people that tried to move it and when they went under the mountain to find it and to get it they all died and so the only

01:44:30

Person alive that knows its location and has supposedly seen it

01:44:35

Is this one rabbi who gave testimony to to where it is?

01:44:41

But with the warning that if you go to get it, you're gonna die So, how do we prove oh, right so like So long the arc was being put on the oxen and Somebody decided they were going to stable stabilize it by touching it and they don't yeah, but but see in this case

01:45:05

Yes, I guess something like that. But this is since since Roberts gonna do movie

01:45:11

Illustrations, I'm gonna go even further back to a movie then Indiana Jones hence because I didn't see that one.

01:45:17

No Actually Because I actually watched this movie

01:45:24

But Terminator that they go back in time and they can't bring anything with them

01:45:29

One police officer says how convenient that you have a story that you can't bring anything that Collaborates your story that could you know, give me nothing you could bring you have to come through the time, you know

01:45:42

Naked so you can't bring anything that would be able to verify the story That's sort of what this reminds me of it

01:45:50

Everyone anyone that looks at it is gonna die except for the one rabbi who writes about it I guess he doesn't die, but everyone else does so you can't find it because it's it's there, but I guess it's hidden you know, so It's convenient where are the bodies?

01:46:11

Yeah. Well, where are the bodies if they die? He's vanished

01:46:17

I think he said that they vanished and so they're gone so you don't need a body so convenient

01:46:25

Yeah, yeah very rapture, yeah, I don't All right,

01:46:31

I'm not gonna take that one What was it in the 70s when the pilots decided or the airlines decided that One Christian pilot was not going to be flying with another and they were going to put the atheist pilots with the

01:46:47

Christian pilots because if the rapture happened They wanted somebody to land the plane.

01:46:52

Then what what happens if if the atheist gets converted? All right, so I Have anything else

01:47:07

Andrew cuz John wanted to try to jump back in before the end. Oh, that's it. All right All right, it's the

01:47:15

Brady Bunch, yeah John welcome back. I just want to come back to you and come back to the show real quick and just say dude

01:47:25

I can't believe Bruce Willis was a ghost Why didn't you say spoilers?

01:47:31

What the heck man? I think 20 years is beyond the statute of limitations for spoiler alert

01:47:43

Now I gotta see the movie I just that you ruined it for me, yeah, but I never saw the

01:47:49

Ghostbusters movie So don't tell me how that ends They they bust ghosts.

01:47:54

Yeah Yeah, I don't even remember I did see that movie I just the only thing

01:47:59

I remember of Ghostbusters other than the line You know who you're gonna call Ghostbusters was the big marshmallow blowing up that as a kid

01:48:07

I don't know. That was just hysterical to me All right, so Someone is someone someone's asking

01:48:17

John if there's gonna be an after show that's up to you Um Probably not because the other computer

01:48:24

I have is just not working that well. All right, so no All right, so we'll put

01:48:30

John and John in timeout. I mean a backstage So I Was almost gonna do that to Jim it was getting kind of close there, but he he left

01:48:44

You know beforehand so real quick before we end gives give folks Again plug the book plug your your blogs let folks know how to get in touch with you

01:48:54

If there's anyone who's listening who has a podcast I recommend you get a hold of Robert and get him on your podcast

01:49:01

More people need to be getting copies of the book tourism Because we're dealing with this

01:49:07

I mean it it was good to have Jim come in so people can see the arguments people who are reading the comments you're seeing some people arguing there and this is not an

01:49:17

Unusual thing, unfortunately, right? Yeah Yeah, so let me thank you first of all for promoting this

01:49:25

I really appreciate all your support I'm gonna I'm gonna throw some shout outs back to you. These are awesome books

01:49:31

Andrew and I did a bit of a book swap. So those are great Yeah, so the book Torah isn't book comm you can get it there

01:49:37

You can see some information about the book there as well or amazon .com.

01:49:42

It's available there It was put out by Williamson College Press I do need to give a shout out to Williamson College, which is where I am currently studying for my master's degree in Theological studies so shout out to all my friends there

01:49:57

Fabulous school and they've been very supportive of this for the very reason that they've been seeing Very similar things happened in the in the

01:50:04

Nashville area up in the Minneapolis area where I first Ran into it Matter of fact at the book launch party that we had at the college

01:50:11

I had a guy come up to me from about two towns over and said I need to talk to you We have to go to lunch.

01:50:17

There's so many people that keep bringing this stuff up to me so this is a book born out of a personal need to understand where these other folks were coming from and out of a need to Defend the

01:50:30

Christian faith because I'll tell you just a little elaboration on the story of how this came about When I started engaging with my friends, so on Facebook, they were posting and etc

01:50:40

We got into this big long public discussion. I started getting a lot of people behind the scenes saying hey, you don't know me

01:50:47

But I really appreciate you sticking up for Christianity with Bob and Sue is there is the pseudonyms

01:50:53

I gave them Because they would tell me things like hey Our kids play with their kids and now their kids are trying to tell our kids this weird stuff

01:51:01

But we don't know how to respond. We didn't know what to tell them Even had some of their relatives say hey, we've been praying for our brother, but we don't know what's going on Thank you for defending the faith

01:51:12

And so out of that came this book and I send it out to all the folks that had reached out to me So I think it really is a valuable resource when you're talking to someone that Believes or is tempted to follow that kind of return to Torah Hebrew roots movement

01:51:26

But in addition it ended up being becoming a little bit of like a biblical theology that helps to explain

01:51:33

The storyline and the arc of the Bible and what things meant in the Old Testament and what they mean in the New Testament So I think even if you don't if you're not kind of fighting with that in your own world

01:51:41

There's some interesting stuff in here that I think would bless you as a Christian It blessed me to kind of learn it and it was a huge huge process for me

01:51:49

So again Torah isn't book .com RL Solberg comm as my personal blog website

01:51:55

You know could be found on all your all your major media outlets or social media outlets as well

01:52:00

So and thanks Andrew. I appreciate your having me on. Yeah. No, I mean I and I told you this when we first talked

01:52:06

This is the only book I know that really covers Hebrew roots and and it's ilk

01:52:14

Because I just I didn't have a resource to turn people to and I get asked this all the time because people think oh, well if you're

01:52:21

Jewish you understand everything about Hebrew roots What? right, so I I'm thrilled that there's now a resource.

01:52:30

I could turn people to and say here get this book Not only because there's a resource but it's so thoroughly done.

01:52:36

I mean it there's thanks It really does answer all the issues that that come up I mean folks these

01:52:45

Basically, here's what Robert was doing when when Jim was on he was opening his book And just reading, you know, it's there.

01:52:53

It's like, you know, just just sit there and say, okay What's your question? Oh, okay.

01:52:58

Hold on. Let me let me turn to that chapter. Here you go It's it's right. I was kind of like that with Jim the Batman, right?

01:53:03

Oh Sabbath. Okay, we got that Okay, we got that It's in there.

01:53:09

That's the beauty of this book. So go check out the book tourism tourism book calm

01:53:15

You want to get a couple copies get them today? and it really is

01:53:22

Well written, I think I told you this and and here's the irony we didn't get to talk about this but we talked about it on the rap report podcast where you were on and You know when when the person that contacted me

01:53:35

I guess your secretary whoever contacted me and said hey You know, would you like to have them on?

01:53:42

My response and I think you ended up seeing it was, you know, I'm gonna be a little bit critical I'm from a

01:53:47

Jewish background, you know and You were like, oh then I definitely want your input when

01:53:53

I started reading this I actually thought that it was going to be an argument for Law -keeping and I'm reading it going wait.

01:54:02

No, wait. No. No, he's actually he's he's saying things that are right here

01:54:07

Like no, this is this is an answer to it. I was like, oh, this is great So I really enjoyed the book the thing we didn't get into and I would encourage people to go to Andrew Rappert's rap report where Robert was on it's also titled.

01:54:23

I think it's still tourism answering Hebrew roots and others the One thing that we did do with that was we covered the issue of how people get into this.

01:54:32

It is a little deceptive I'm gonna give a really condensed version here But basically what you have is you have people maybe like Jim Batman Jim who you know

01:54:43

They they're interested. They want to get back to looking at the Background of Judaism to enrich their study of the

01:54:50

New Testament Just as Robert was saying he likes to do and to study that out

01:54:56

But but they start to go a little further to where they defend the the the law -keeping over what the

01:55:03

New Testament teaches and this is what you see happen and what one of the things we ended up saying on the podcast was

01:55:10

You you end up seeing these people that what they do is It starts out as just an interest

01:55:16

I just have an interest in this and we study it out and then you're talking to friends and you're you're really defending the

01:55:23

Hebrew roots Just trying to explain it to friends to explain what it is. They believe and before you know it you're starting to Believe some of the things because you're saying hey, they're actually our answers here and you actually convince yourself of it in trying to just answer people's questions of what you're studying and You're just trying to defend the the case accurately, but you're actually convincing yourself of its accuracy and you're not

01:55:48

Listening to some of the questions and the challenges being asked you saw that tonight with Jim. He wasn't listening

01:55:54

To the challenges. He just rolled right over He you know made light of them made little of them just you know, and I'll continue to go on That's what you end up seeing that people end up doing and that's convincing themselves of there right now

01:56:09

I will say that not always but a lot of times there's pride involved and all of us have pride and We can all be suffer from it and you do have people

01:56:18

I don't care what group you're in if you're charismatic you get saved and then you get a second blessing you speak in tongues and Have the

01:56:24

Holy Spirit if you're if you're reformed you get saved then you get reformed You know the five points of Calvinism and everything is seen in that if you're a fundamentalist you get saved and then you learn about King James only and if you're going to be

01:56:36

You know in this camp you get saved and then you learn all about the Hebrew roots the same pride can exist you you can see it in all these different groups and When you have someone like that Then what they're doing is their pride becomes

01:56:51

King and they they're they tune everything else out And that's where it becomes a dangerous part because that's when souls are at stake because now they no longer listen for truth

01:57:01

I think you kind of saw maybe a little of that with Jim where he he believes he has the truth And I think he's sincere about it

01:57:08

But he tunes out anything that doesn't agree with his conclusion.

01:57:14

That's called confirmation bias You heard it when when he was given overwhelming evidence with a question.

01:57:21

He just ignores it and rolls on Because it doesn't fit the confirmation

01:57:27

Okay that he the conclusion that he has Now let me give a warning to those of you that may be listening

01:57:38

I know that there was parts in there where and I'm guilty of this as well of laughing at Jim the things he was saying

01:57:45

The way he was behaving It is there is an element where we sit there and go wow

01:57:50

We can't believe someone's actually saying this or acting this way But there's another component to it that I really want to stress with us be praying for Jim Be praying for these people

01:58:03

Do not be well, they don't know what they're talking about. They're a bunch of idiots. Do not do that Even if you think it's true

01:58:10

Okay pray for their souls pray that they would come to know truth because what many of these people are doing is they they know of the freedom of the gospel and They put themselves back under the law which the whole book of Galatians would condemn, right?

01:58:29

They need our prayers Hey, that's what they need they need they need guys like Robert who are gonna spend the time to research this to put this together

01:58:39

So that he can have answers for them. They need what he has So be praying for him because the reality is there's there's no other books.

01:58:47

I know on this subject. So He's probably dealing with this day in and day out. Aren't you Robert?

01:58:53

Yeah. Oh, yeah Yes, the book came out. I was suddenly the expert so exactly so you and I'm still learning myself so yeah, but yeah, you're right and it's it's something that I I Really appreciate you mentioning that because I because I make a big point in the book that this isn't this isn't

01:59:08

Our argument or our fight isn't with people. It's with ideas So we can we can refute

01:59:13

Jim up and down and laugh at the ideas But at Jim as a human being we want to pray for him. I appreciate you mentioning that Yeah, and I'm gonna

01:59:21

I'm gonna Let you close out with one thing, you know, one thing you really didn't get to address is

01:59:27

Hebrews 8 13 It was brought up Jim really didn't let you address it

01:59:33

Let me read it and I'm just if you could address the importance of this Hebrews 8 13 says in speaking of a new covenant

01:59:40

He makes the first one obsolete and what is becoming obsolete and growing old is

01:59:47

Already or is ready to vanish away What's the importance of that? This is

01:59:54

I had to read this about ten times when I came across it to understand what it really meant And it's talking about the

01:59:59

Covenant the Sinai Covenant And this whole book of Hebrews is about now through Jesus.

02:00:05

We have a better. We have a superior temple We have a superior superior priest. We have a superior law.

02:00:11

So I think that is really pointing to the fact that Jesus Fulfilled the

02:00:18

Old Testament law again. He didn't abolish it. He didn't make it useless and unworthy. It was God's law It's perfect, but it just wasn't intended to last forever.

02:00:25

And I think that's what Hebrew 813 tells us Well again,

02:00:31

I thank you for coming on I love the time spending with you You're a little bit more musically talented than me.

02:00:37

Just just a tad I can fix that. No, you can't some things can't be from a miracle of Christ No, but but folks check out this book check out

02:00:55

You know RL Sahlberg dot -com Tourism book dot -com

02:01:01

Really encourage you to get these And go back and listen to the episode that We got to do on the rap report so that you can see that I know there are several people here

02:01:15

Listening because I'm seeing the chats And they need to be reaching out to you right now.

02:01:21

I'm speaking directly to you. Mr. Han holes Award -winning podcaster you need to get a hold of him and get him on your show

02:01:30

You know, come on now so But I do think that this is this is something that we got to we got to get more people knowing about this book

02:01:40

Because there's so many people being trapped in this So please get get the word out about this book tourism by RL Sahlberg You need to do this because there's there's souls at stake there's people being deceived and so You know, we're glad that that Jim came in You know, and I I know

02:02:04

You know, I just gonna end by explaining this. I know that many people think oh, it's so rude that you muted him

02:02:10

There is a reason that I do this Okay I know after the these guys get off and they say how how we silence them and we're trying to control the conversation

02:02:19

I'll encourage you to go back and listen to how much time he spoke Compared to how much time either

02:02:25

Robert and I combined Spoke and I think you're gonna see that he he did he did more speaking.

02:02:31

It is my show So I do get to set the rules But we want dialogue

02:02:38

That's what we're here for Okay, and if if Robert was speaking over Jim, I would have stopped him as well

02:02:46

You know because we want dialogue here We want to help you the audience to learn not just the content on today of you know tourism

02:02:55

But also to learn how to do apologetics what to look for and So these are the things you know, and and it wasn't

02:03:06

It wasn't that I just am muting him for the sake of muting him because I don't like what he's saying.

02:03:12

I Would have muted him a lot sooner. I would have booted him if that was the case I'm muting him because of the behavior

02:03:18

Okay, and and so I just want folks to recognize that as well all right, so Robert again, thanks for coming on.

02:03:27

I hope everyone goes out and gets your your book or several copies of your book and We'll be back next week.

02:03:35

So next week's topic. Dr. Anthony Sylvester will be in And he's gonna try to convince you that you

02:03:42

Christian should be voting For the Donald Yeah, I want to see the argument now it is gonna be interesting because we do have some people that are we're planning to come in and Challenge me on now.

02:04:00

I can't even remember what the challenges were They wanted to come in and challenge me

02:04:05

I think it would there was an atheist that wanted to challenge me I Just forget the topic.

02:04:11

So oh, well when he comes in we'll know But there were also I do know some folks that were gonna come in and challenge me on the fact that they believe you can

02:04:19

Lose your salvation That's fine. That's what this show is for So folks, one of the things is is if you have any apologetics questions like Nicholas had that's what we're here for Come on in Thursday nights

02:04:32

We're here most Thursday nights. We're not doing a formal debate. We will entertain any question pretty much and so Just know that we're here

02:04:42

Apologetics live .com is the place to go We always put the links up there the topics the links to participate the links to watch

02:04:49

You know, and so we appreciate you guys who are listening it. So remember that until next time