Torahism Answering Hebrew Roots and Other Movements with R. L. Solberg

With every Christian.

There is a theology for every theology.

There is a defense of truth.

Is there or is there not a single shred of factual historical information to substantiate what you're asserting that this

is an addition to the text?

Personally, I don't know of manuscripts, but I read scholars who are specialists in that field, and they have looked at those

manuscripts or seen the lack of them here.

Could you give me your name?

Oh no, I can't give you that now.

So are all the popes actually believers?

Are all the popes?

I don't know.

Some could, some couldn't be.

I don't know.

So it's possible for the vicar of Christ to be an unbeliever?

Possible, yeah.

That's an interesting view.

Climb out.

This creature from the dirt defied the everlasting holy God.

After that, God had said, the day that you shall eat of it, you shall surely die.

And instead of dying thanatos, that day, he lived another day and was

clothed in his nakedness by pure grace and had the consequences of a

curse supplied for quite some time.

But the worst curse would come upon the one who seduced him, whose head would be crushed by the seed of the woman.

And the punishment was too severe.

What's wrong with you people?

I'm serious.

I mean, this is what's wrong with the Christian church today.

We don't know who God is.

He doesn't have faith.

He has confidence.

Confidence.

Confide, from the Latin, with

faith.

His apologetic lard.

To answer your questions,.

Your host of Striving for Eternity, Andrew Rappaport.

All right.

We are live, Apologetics Live, coming to you because of the strange

virus that we have, this pandemic that is going around.

We're going to do this over the internet.

You're thinking of a virus called stupidity.

That's right.

That is the name of the virus that I'm convinced everybody is.

I just don't get this whole virus thing.

Sorry, folks.

All these schools are canceling because people are going nuts.

I don't get it.

Yep.

Sorry.

Not that.

Just looking at the percentages.

This is the importance of getting facts.

But that aside, tonight we're going to be talking with the author of this book.

Oh, wait.

Doesn't that look so much better?

It looks great covering up my face with this.

All right.

So, Torahism.

Are Christians required to keep the law of Moses?

And so we're going to have R .L. Sahlberg.

If you listen to my Rappaport podcast, you are aware of this.

We've spent an hour going through this book, getting into details.

But if you have friends...

Wait, let me just stop.

Stop.

You do have friends that are in Hebrew Roots movement.

All of you.

I know you do.

Because basically everyone seems to.

But you've got to make sure they're watching this, listening to this.

And more importantly, make sure they're going out to the website

Torahismbook .com.

They're going to need to go there for a very simple reason.

They need this book.

And so we're going to bring in Robert in just a moment.

I got to give some announcements really quick.

First, we have a winner for the contest we had for the Christian Podcast Community.

I'm drawing a complete blank on who won.

I was traveling.

My bad.

But someone won.

He got a box of 30 pounds of books and $1 ,000 worth of books and

DVDs and CDs.

So I will have to look up the winner and congratulate him.

I know that's really bad of me.

I understand that.

And some of you who are regular listeners are not surprised in the least.

Actually, I see Mr. John Wilkinson in the room.

So he won't be surprised that I'm clueless as I try to look up who won the contest.

But the winner, I'm sure, is very happy that he got the books.

But we did send that out.

If you hear the echo in this room, I do apologize for that.

As I'm in the process of moving, it's going to be a while before I actually get back into a place with books to absorb the

sound.

So, oh well.

But as far as some announcements, we will be doing the Quip Jersey, if

you're in the New Jersey area, end of July.

We don't have anything up on the website about it.

But if you go to strivingforeturning .org, sign up for the newsletter, you will get it when we send that out as

I continue to look for who won the contest.

This is really bad.

I should have done this ahead of time.

So I'm going to bring Robert in so he could save me from more embarrassment.

Robert, welcome to Apologetics Live.

Andrew.

You never know what's going to happen with me.

At some point, I'm going to be able to explain in the future what's been going on this week, what it was like.

It's been a very busy week.

But that aside, I'm looking in the wrong group.

No wonder why I can't find it.

So your bookshelves are empty because of the coronavirus?

Is that what I'm understanding?

That's right.

My bookshelves are empty because of the stupidity virus.

It's a pandemic of stupidity everywhere.

I do like I did like there was a someone had grabbed some

quotes.

I forget the senator from New York now.

I'm just remembering everything tonight.

But he they had his tweet from early May where the guy was

criticizing Trump for not doing for closing the borders to China and how we needed to

replace him because he was so radical and in what he was doing.

And then like a month later, he's the same guy is saying that this president's not doing enough

and we need to remove him.

Basically, we need to remove him.

So either way, you slice it.

We need to remove him.

That's basically what they're.

Ah, here we go.

All right.

We got the winner all this time.

Philip Lexwell is the winner of the contest.

It took me a while to find that.

OK, this is this is how, you know, a person of ego I have.

I'm going to bring John in early.

John, go ahead.

You can make fun of me all you want.

I know you probably want to.

You couldn't remember the guy's name and you're the one who picked the winner.

No, actually, the computer picked the winner.

OK, yeah, I was trying to find it for you, but it looks like you beat me.

Good.

OK, I'm going to put him back in backstage.

John's a regular and John John will never wants to miss any opportunity to give me a hard time, make fun of me.

And I just made it easy.

Um, we got John Malone in the in chat and he I'm sure is going to give me a hard time

at church this week about remembering the name.

So, oh, hey, John, Chris Honholz likes your hat.

He says he loves it.

Yeah.

Now, for the folks who don't know Chris Honholz, I want to encourage folks to go check out my Facebook page

if you're on my Facebook.

There is an interview with Mr. Honholz.

Of course, he was dressed as Captain America because that's usually how he dresses for work.

No, no, no.

I guess they don't let him patrol the streets as a police, as a police officer, you know,

law enforcement as Captain America.

So he does that off hours.

OK, but great video there.

He was interviewed, did a fundraiser for a young man who is got terminal disease.

And he and a couple of friends dressed up as their favorite comic character heroes and

did a race.

It was really cool.

And Chris, if you come in, we would we'd love to hear about that.

He says he's not allowed to wear the suit on duty.

But, dude, I would love to see, you know, it'd be a great video seeing Chris Honholz like arresting a man

dressed as Captain America.

Tell me that wouldn't be great.

That would be awesome.

I should I should mention before we get into the topic, Chris Honholz is the winner of the Christian Podcast

Awards.

He and his co -host Richard Story of the Voice of Reason radio podcast won the

best episode for 2019.

They were they were it was very, very tight between them and Just Thinking.

And I think they were convinced they weren't going to win until they heard it.

And he was, I think, for days being like, what in the world?

What's wrong with you?

What kind of guy wins and says what's wrong with you?

So, Robert, let's get into for folks who didn't listen to the podcast.

Let's get into discussing a little bit of your background.

And then, you know, obviously, you must be from like a Jewish background that you

want to write about Jewish laws.

And that's that's got to be it, right?

Well, no, not technically, but I am one to three percent East East European Jewish, according to

Ancestry .com.

But yeah, I wasn't raised Jewish at all.

Ancestry .com thinks everybody seems to be Jewish, but they're I think they're if I'm very quickly, they're owned by Mormons,

which for Mormons, they have to be one of the 10 tribes.

So.

Like everybody in the world is, you know, is there.

So yeah, no, actually, I mean, I first found out about tourism, which is a term that I

had coined myself.

But just by engaging with some old friends that used to be Christians.

And and one fall, they decided to start posting anti Christmas

memes, which is pretty weird.

At first, I thought, well, that's strange.

These guys are old friends of ours, you know, from Minnesota where I'm from.

I live in Nashville now.

So I hadn't talked to them in quite a while.

I was surprised to find that they were posting that.

And I thought, OK, I'll jump in.

Why is Christmas a pagan holiday?

And that just kind of was like Alice in the Wonderland.

I stumbled into this whole other belief system that I at the time I wasn't aware that it even existed.

It's kind of this weird halfway land between Judaism and Christianity.

And so that's that this whole thing started out as just me talking with friends, turned into several blog articles on my blog,

which is our at RL Solberg dot com.

And then over the course of a couple of months, I started having people say, well, this might make an interesting book because

they aren't the people that I was speaking with, my old friends.

They aren't specifically Hebrew roots, but a lot of overlap.

It's the same concept of Christians needing or they're saying Christians needing to return to

Torah, needing to practice all the Old Testament laws, even though they at the same time,

they believe that Jesus came and that he was the Messiah.

So it's this kind of weird, weird, weird world that I stumbled into.

That was really the start of this book.

And this is the thing, you know, you and I were talking before before we went live.

And so I want to tell tell the audience the story that I was telling you before we went live, but

of why I need to start traveling with copies of your book.

Now, first off, anybody I said this on my podcast, on the rap report podcast, I'll say it here.

You need to go and buy several copies of this book.

Torahism.

I'll cover my face so that suddenly I look better, but you can go to tourismbook .com and pick up a copy.

Why?

I actually say you need to pick up multiple copies because one for you and one to give away

because you will need to.

I think after our podcast, someone said he bought six for members in his church.

That's good.

Go do that because the reality is there is someone you're going to know who is,

is at least if they're not engaged in this, there's so many people that

are just playing with it.

And we're going to talk about why that is a little bit dangerous, maybe in a bit.

But this weekend, this last weekend, I was out in Huntington Beach, California, and

I was, you know, basically I was going out with a friend of mine who does open air evangelism there every, every week.

And he's, he's out there and he's basically what happens is every week he is up

there.

And when he is preaching the gospel, there is a guy with a shofar.

Now for folks that don't know what a shofar is, just look over my shoulder.

Oh, wait, no, wait, sorry.

It's packed.

I don't have it.

Okay.

But it looks, it's a, it's a horn, like a you know, what it, it

basically, if you know how to blow it right, can get a very, very loud sound.

And this guy tries to drown out Ray every time he's preaching every week.

And so I figured I'd go over and have a chat with him.

And he had this whole chart up there.

Basically what he was trying to do was to show everybody that we need to be realizing that we need to get back to our

Jewish roots.

It was interesting, you know, Robert, because he said, everyone's Jewish.

I was like, okay, that's an interesting one.

But he couldn't tell me which tribe he was from.

And then he proceeded to tell me that I can't know which tribe I'm from.

But he had this thing up there.

It had the prophecy of Daniel and the 77s.

And as we're looking at that, I could see he's got it laid out.

The first set, the seven sevens is 49 years and the beginning of the completion of the

building of the wall and the temple to the, you know, for that.

And then he's got the 62 times seven.

So he's got the dates as years.

And he's going through this whole thing, explaining how no Jewish person would expect the

Messiah to be on earth for more than a year.

And so the proof that this is something supernatural is the fact that the Holy

Spirit was on earth for 490 days.

And I went, wait, where did the days come from?

He's like, well, that's a riddle.

Like, what makes this a riddle?

And he basically just says, because we know it is.

No, you have to follow rules of interpretation, which he didn't want to do.

He ended up getting frustrated with me.

So he turned to Dr. Silvestro, who had an open Bible for a while, and he was upset.

And I let him go for about 10, well, at least 15 minutes, maybe even 20 before I said anything.

I just let him do his thing.

And then I started to interrupt him.

And he did not want that.

He didn't want any interruption.

But then as he's getting frustrated, not being able to answer my questions, he turns to Dr. Silvestro, and he's

like, well, what is it?

You have something you want to say.

So Anthony starts to read from Hebrews 8 and 9, because this guy was making a big thing

about the tabernacle has been discovered on a

mountain.

The convenient thing about it being discovered, though, you'll love this, Robert.

It's always good to have a system that when you come up with a theory, there's no way to prove it.

We know that this was found because this rabbi found it, and seven people tried to move it, and

they all died.

And they're gone.

They vanished.

So how do you know that it's actually there?

Like you're saying, the only eyewitnesses are gone.

When did that supposedly happen?

Is he saying that was a recent thing?

Yeah, yeah.

He was saying this.

Now, the irony is in this big chart that he had, he had Christ return in like

2017, and it was crossed out, and he wrote in

2023.

Convenient and all because we found the tabernacle.

So Anthony's reading about Hebrews and that we don't look to the tabernacle, we look to Christ.

And he looks at Anthony, he goes, I can't do this.

I can't do it.

I can't have two of you at once.

Only one of you at a time.

I said, well, you're talking to me.

He goes, but he keeps interrupting.

And I literally was like, dude, you just invited him into the conversation.

He's been silent until you asked him to speak.

He didn't interrupt.

At which point he started blowing a shofar to avoid talking to me.

I wanted to have a copy of your book to hand it to him.

I told him the website, but here's the interesting thing.

God's providence, there was a couple that was

wearing clothing that would be identified as Jewish people.

We were able to see the taluses

draping out.

And so we see this couple.

The guy is really, really steeped in this Hebrew roots.

The wife is steeped in it, but not as much.

She's just kind of, I think, following her husband.

This guy that we're talking to really wanted to talk to her, to talk to this couple.

But instead, since I was talking to him, Anthony took the two of them aside and then started straightening her out on a whole

lot of things.

Hopefully, they'll hear that.

We gave them also, told them to go find your book and gave them the website.

I think I need to.

Have a couple of copies of your book when I travel.

Yeah.

Let me ask you, a shofar dude, was he a Jew or was he a Christian?

He thinks he is.

Okay.

Maybe he's a tourist.

Well, you got to remember, he thinks everyone's Jewish.

Right.

So when you become a Christian, you suddenly get Jewish heritage somehow, I guess.

Grafted in, I could maybe go with that.

Okay.

I could go with that, but that's not what he was saying.

He was calling the Jewish people, the nation of Israel, his descendants.

Yeah, that's a little troublesome.

Or his ancestors saying, I'm like, dude, it doesn't work that way.

I'm saying all this to say, this is not an

uncommon thing.

This is something we're seeing in a lot of places, more than just the arguments that Christmas and Easter

are pagan holidays or Roman holidays and made up.

I mean, there are some that deny the deity of Christ as well.

You addressed this.

Right.

Yeah.

That's freaking scary.

Very scary.

Yeah.

Here's the thing that I loved about your book and why it was so helpful.

We're going to get into it in a bit, but as I sat there on the streets this past weekend, there is

not a single argument that any of these three people gave to me that wasn't

addressed in your book.

Oh, okay.

That's good.

Every single one.

I mean, I was wishing I had the copy because I could have just gone, oh, page 75, that covers

it.

That's the thing that was amazing to me about the way your book was laid out was I literally had this

conversation with three different people and not one argument except for his charts and his, that

craziness, but the arguments for us returning to the law of Moses, not one of them asked me anything that

wasn't already in your book.

And so we'll probably get into some of those.

I should mention, if anyone wants to join and ask any questions, you can go to apologeticslive .com.

There is a link to participate there.

I see Nicholas and Mr. Batman is here.

I don't know who Mr. Batman is.

Maybe it's Calvinist Batman.

But the thing is, if you want to join, come on in, we're going to be opening

it up in a bit.

First, I want to give Robert a chance to talk about the book, to explain what you're going to

find when you get a copy of this book.

And then I want you and I to discuss why we think there's such an

intrigue for people about this.

So give a layout of the book, why you wrote it the way you did and what people can expect from it.

Sure.

Yeah.

I mean, what you.

Just brought up, I think is an important reason or an important by -product of how the book came

to be.

So you said that

when I engaged with my friends, we went deep on a lot of stuff.

They were actually very gracious and in their minds, they're really trying to pursue God.

So I want to give them credit for that.

But as we dove in, all kinds of people.

So this was, I think I mentioned on your podcast, this was one of probably the rarest

literary form ever, which was a productive Facebook argument.

They only come around once every so often.

But this ended up being, I think maybe because I knew them, there's a lot of respect.

But because it went on for so long, it went on over a month, a lot of people had jumped in.

So I ended up having a chance.

It had all these offshoots and I ended up spending a lot of time, three or four months just engaging with people, understanding what their

arguments were.

And after a little while, you start to see a pattern.

It's kind of like apologetics in the larger sense, but there's certain pillars

of argumentation that they use.

And so as I started collecting and looking at all that, I started to notice those patterns

and I decided to try to adopt those patterns in how I laid out the book.

So basically the book is laid out.

First of all, part one is kind of setting the table for the conversation because there's

confusion even among Jews and Christians and scholars about what does

the Torah mean?

So it can mean different things.

And I tried to adopt a more academic understanding of what actually the Torah is.

So I explained first of all, what is the Torah, so we can all get our terms straight.

And then I talked about what is Torahism, because that's a term

that I coined to address a wide varying group of sects

that all believe similar things, but not exactly the same thing.

So that was a little bit of a challenge for me in that there was not one big standard, one

doctrine that I could go to that says, this is what these people believe.

So in the book, I try to, in two different areas, I try to lay out an aggregate

sort of statement of beliefs.

And with the folks that I was engaging with at the time, I ran it by them and I said, is this

right?

I don't want to misquote you.

Tell me, does this represent what you're talking about?

And I got agreement that, yeah, okay, yeah, you got that right.

That's exactly right.

So those are the belief statements or the creeds that I put in the book, and against

which I then in the second half of the book, start examining those claims from those creeds.

So they have all kinds of claims, and I kind of broke it down into a few different sections.

There's claims about the Torah.

So we talk about, is the Torah eternal?

And was it meant for all nations?

And the big one, was it abolished?

So that's Matthew 5 .17, it's a big one that they bring up.

And then we talk about claims about the commandments.

So we look at specific things, keeping the feasts, keeping the Sabbath, the kosher food dietary

restrictions, spend a lot of time going into the temple and what that all meant, the priests and the

sacrifice and the worship and all that stuff.

There's a lot of historical claims.

I think the core of Torahism comes from a historical claim about the corruption of Christianity

by, well, by several folks, but they often point to

Constantine in 325 as the source of all this corruption that went down through history.

And now today, this is what Torahism believes, that today when Christians sit in the pews on a

Sunday morning, they're hearing lies from their pastor, and their pastor may not even know their lies, but they've just absorbed all

this corruption.

So we examine that in a lot of detail.

And then this gets to the scary part for me.

So I'll just say that I'm a big fan of exploring the Jewish roots of the

Christian faith.

I love understanding the covenants.

I love understanding the journey, the storyline of Israel, going from a man to

a family, to a tribe, to a nation and understanding all that.

That's okay.

But when you start crossing the line, and this is where Torahism crosses the line, we started getting into issues of their claims

about God and their claims about salvation.

So they're talking about things like Jesus wasn't divine.

So we look at that.

There's no trinity.

If Jesus wasn't divine, if he was just a man, then the trinity is a Roman corruption, they say.

And then they start talking about salvation comes through obeying the Torah, which is really,

this whole area is very strange to me, because how can you, well, we can get into it, but

it just opens up a Pandora's box when you start getting into the idea that, like they'll say, for example, Jesus was just a

man, yet he was the Messiah.

But because he was a man, you should not be worshiping him.

So when Christians worship Jesus, according to Torahism, they are committing idolatry and worshiping a human.

So this is where you get into the real weird stuff.

But it's kind of like Mormonism and the Latter -day Saints, where you have to kind of dig down a few layers below the pop

level to start uncovering those kind of scary.

Roots.

Yeah.

And the thing, by the way, some of the folks are saying you're not as loud as me.

I pumped you up here.

Oh, I can.

Yeah, I know you can.

No, you can do this.

Yeah, there you go.

I'll put my mic closer.

You actually, for folks who don't know, you have a background that you and I obviously would share.

Anyone who knows me, I'm very musical.

I sing backup.

When I sing, everyone backs up.

Nice.

You have a you got a background in music.

Yeah, I should.

I should let folks know that some folks were commenting about my new intro for my

rap report podcast.

A lot of people really liked the rap report daily where I introduced it.

And that was you who put that together.

Yeah, that's me playing the instruments.

Yeah.

So so we'll have to apologize to Mr. John, who did the old one who's watching.

But, John, dude, you got to up your game.

I mean, this guy is like a professional.

OK, and so what's he doing?

Recovering professional musician.

Yeah.

He's like,.

Wait, what?

Yeah.

See, it shows he doesn't mean a little show and tell my Martin.

D1000, you're going to have to pay me

for this, though.

OK, that's enough.

I just want to show it.

OK, I've always got like a guitar or something.

And when I'm thinking through things and working that out, I'm usually noodling around just for fun now.

And so basically, I can't do any of that.

We had a guitar in our house for twenty five years.

We just sold it.

I think it was it was played by people that would come over sometimes and they knew what they were doing.

We didn't.

My wife wanted to learn how to play, but we never.

Ever did.

I thought you're going to say it was played by Jimmy Page or something.

No, no.

Although, hey, I'll throw this out.

You know, people who are regular listeners here know that I'm pop culture

illiterate.

So I have I'm listening to the guy, my next door neighbors where I used to live,

and they're had a band playing.

And, you know, next day I was talking to my neighbor.

I was like, you know, I heard the music you guys had.

It sounded pretty good.

He's like, yeah, it's the E Street Band.

I'm like, OK.

He's like, oh, yeah, my brother in law is one of the E Street members, the E Street Band.

I'm like, OK, who's the E Street Band?

Oh, my.

Well, then I should tell you that Jimmy Page was the guitar player for a rock band called Led Zeppelin.

If you weren't aware of that band.

I was not.

OK, there you go.

So.

All right.

So let's do this.

Nicholas has been in for a bit, so we're going to bring him in to see what questions he may have.

So brought you in, Nicholas.

You can unmute yourself.

All right.

Can you hear me?

You can.

Got you.

All right.

Perfect.

I reached out to you about, I don't know, probably a month ago, just trying to find some direction as far as

links regarding just why we shouldn't use Hillsong and Bethel music in the church.

I feel like I actually, by God's grace, stumbled across some links last week just through Justin Peters

Facebook community page.

So I might actually just shift gears, if that's OK, and just ask a question that I have from the Old Testament.

OK, well, yeah, and I'll just say for what you were just saying, Justin has done some great work on that.

He recently did a video with Todd Friel.

But for folks who just so we don't switch topics, the Old Testament, but just so people don't wonder why

we might be against that, they use they use their music as a way to reach into

churches to pull people into some of their false teaching.

And so the reason I'd be concerned is the fact that they they are open about using their music to get into

churches to try to pull people into their belief system.

So it's not just playing.

They're playing.

Their music's not just innocent.

It's there.

That's their evangelism that way.

So.

All right.

So go with your question for the.

Old Testament.

OK, just as I've been making my trek through the Old Testament again this last year

I know that God gave commands right to do sacrifices at the tabernacle in the wilderness and so

forth.

But then as I get to like Joshua and as they go and do conquest and things,

I've noticed in a couple of places that they build altars and so forth and do

sacrifices there.

So I guess I'm just trying to figure out, like, how how is that different from

the ordinances that were given at the tabernacle as far as the duties of the priests to do?

Because as I as I read through it and then I actually got back to Joshua chapter eight, verse 30,

it talks about the law as far as it being uncut stones.

So there was a law that God set up, which makes sense that they had to follow.

But I guess I'm just trying to figure out or differentiate between that and the actual practices that were

at the tabernacle.

That makes sense.

Yeah.

Yeah, that's a good question.

That's did you want me to take that?

Yeah, I guess the thing the thing that I think of is that, like, if you talk to the in

rabbinical teaching, they believe that the the law actually was given

existed, I should say, before it was given on Mount Sinai.

So even if you look at early Genesis, you have Noah building an altar.

And that was a long time before the law was given.

So there's there's a sort of an understanding or a belief that the that the sacrifices are kind of,

well, I don't want to say eternal, but that they go back much earlier than the law.

And that the law sort of codified what they were and gave and kind of put structure around it.

And it became part of the law of Moses being sort of the terms of the Mosaic covenant.

And so the I can't speak to whether it started at that

time or whether we realized it at that time.

But when the when the law of Moses was given the sacrifices.

They became sort of atonement sacrifices for sin.

And I think that's that's what we're seeing when we when you go through anything that you see, that's pre that's pre

law of Moses.

And I don't I don't know, I'm not really deep in this yet.

But because because this writing of this book has got me really interested in digging further into into the history of Israel and the

history of the laws, because most many of the laws are mentioned in some

form before we get to Exodus and the giving of the law.

So I think a lot of it comes out of the nature of God and that and that as we

as the Bible progresses, you know, it's kind of this progressive revelation concept.

We start to understand later on what the sacrifices mean.

And then, of course, by the time we get to the New Testament, it becomes very clear what the sacrifices were intended to

signify and the fact that Jesus was the one final sacrifice once for all.

Now, if you depending on your end times, you an interesting thing that comes up with this is as well,

Nicholas, is the question people will see.

It seems that for those who hold to a millennial kingdom that the sacrifices are reestablished there.

And that becomes an interesting thing.

I think the common understanding of that for those that hold to a millennial kingdom is that the

sacrifices then are much like what we would do is baptism or the Lord's Supper that point

back to what happened at salvation.

And so many think that that's they'll do these sacrifices looking back at

what Christ did on the cross, which was the fulfillment of those sacrifices.

Oh, that's interesting.

I hadn't heard that.

So, instead of being the foreshadowing that they are in the Old Testament, they turn into a remembrance of what Christ did?

Yeah, that's the most common understanding for those that hold to a millennial

kingdom.

I was just going to say, wouldn't that, in a sense, just, I guess my thinking in that would, wouldn't that

undermine just the whole sacrifice that Jesus did then if you go back to doing something

that was pointing to what he would ultimately fulfill?

Well, the thing is, is what is the goal of it?

So, we think about the Lord's Supper, which was actually a Passover meal.

Yeah, the bread and the wine.

Yeah.

And Christ changed that.

He changed it from a Passover, looking back at God's providence through,

for the nation of Israel, getting, you know, through the slavery and into freedom

and all the trials they went through to looking at it as a look at the new covenant,

right?

So, he changed that.

So, the thinking is he would change that as well for the, you know, and this is for those,

there are many who don't believe there will be a millennial kingdom and therefore they wouldn't see that

continuing.

I guess maybe I'm tipping my hat since Ethan is asking, what's

my end times view?

I'm definitely pro -millennial.

If there is a millennium, I am all for it.

So, that would be my position.

I would be pre -millennial, pre -tribulational is where I lean.

I don't make a big deal of it because I think it's not something we're going to be so, be able to be,

in hindsight, we're going to see it very clearly.

I mean, just like in the Old Testament before the first coming of Christ,

people didn't see all of the details between the first and the second coming clearly.

I think the same thing is going to be for us.

I mean, I know there's, I'm upsetting probably a lot of people because they think like they got it down.

Pat.

Yeah.

That's a larger reason that my eschatology is as yet unformed.

I'm still open to things.

I'm still interested in some possibilities, but it's so hard to know when you look, especially looking through Revelation,

what's symbolic, what's allegory.

It's very difficult to know.

And for me, it comes down to whatever I believe is going to happen in the end

times will have little to no impact on how I live my life today.

The decisions that I'm making as a Christian today, I mean, it's enough for me to just try to follow Jesus and

try not to sin and try to keep things in order in my life.

You know what I mean?

As a believer today that I just trust God at the end, whatever happens is going to be amazing.

Now, in dealing with Robert's book,.

Tourism, the question you asked Nicholas actually is very important because the thing that we end up

seeing is when Israel was taken into the Babylonian captivity, right?

And this, the God promised that this was going to be a judgment on them because of the fact that for

70 sabbatical years, they were ignoring the sabbatical year.

God was going to put them into 70 years of captivity.

But one of the things that he said with it is that he would basically cure them of their idolatry

that during this captivity, that was going to be resolved.

And it was, I mean, we never see Israel as a nation going back into idolatry like they were before that

captivity.

But when they returned to the land and what you end up seeing is the rebuilding of

the temple.

Well, first during that time of captivity, you had the beginnings of the synagogues

and the changing of the system with the Pharisees rising up and the Sadducees.

You don't see that in the Old Testament.

Those groups don't exist.

One being more the political group, the Sadducees, the Pharisees being more the religious group.

So you had your Republicans and Democrats right there.

See, it's nothing's changed.

And so what you end up seeing though, is that you had this rise, but then after

70 AD, when the temple was destroyed, just like in the

time when they were in captivity, they had to come up with some way, how do we offer sacrifices?

And it was a shifting in 70 AD, you start seeing the shift to what we would

refer to as rabbinical Judaism, where it's the rise of obeying

Torah.

And that's what they would say, obeying the law.

And so now, and I've written about this in my book, What Do They Believe, that with Judaism

today, salvation is seen as obeying the law.

They've replaced the sacrifices, because they can't do that anymore, with law keeping.

And actually the most, yeah, that's the book.

Hey, you got a copy.

I got it.

Oh, wait, no, I don't have a copy on my bookshelf anymore.

It's packed in one of like 90 box.

Oh, you got a copy.

Everyone's got a copy.

You really should read it, Andrew.

It's a fantastic book.

It's a good book.

But the thing that you have to realize is that there was a shift.

That shift is what's, you know, people read the Old Testament thinks that's Judaism.

I think that what you see with the Torah, and I'm trying to remember, Robert, how you worded it in the book,

tourists.

Tourists, yeah.

Tourists.

So it's hard for me to say, because it's a new word for me.

But the tourists, those that are Christians that want to put themselves back under the

law, the thing that I always find interesting is they're not following the law of the Old

Testament.

Right.

Many of them are following the law of the rabbis.

So, Robert, maybe you could address that issue, because I think that'd be helpful for folks.

Yeah, I actually learned a lot about that.

I talked with two different groups of folks that are actually based in Israel.

One of them is a Jewish organization.

And I asked them, what is the Jewish position on the end times and the rebuilding?

You know, ever since the temple was destroyed in 80, 70, you can't technically live a

truly Torah observant lifestyle.

So what do you do now and what's your view of the end times?

And they were explaining that there's all kinds of things that they're doing now.

I didn't even know this, too.

Like, for example, they are they still practice the sacrificial rituals

in Jerusalem to make sure that that skill or that art isn't lost.

And I think it was back in the year 2000, 2001, they had an actual Pesach Passover

sacrifice made like it within sight of the Temple Mount.

And that was kind of a big deal.

So they're they're they're holding on and they believe that if the temple is not rebuilt

before the Messiah comes, because, again, they don't believe Jesus was the Messiah, it will be rebuilt then.

And all of the laws, all 613 mitzvot will be returned back into service, including all the

sacrificial laws, which is kind of interesting because, well, if you if you take the Christian

position, what's the point?

And I think you kind of brought that up.

The other group that I spoke to and based out of Israel is is a messianic Jewish organization called One for Israel.

Fantastic resource.

They've got some really brilliant scholars there that have spoken about this idea that

that.

And for example, I should mention to that one for Israel as messianic Jews, they still celebrate the

the feasts because they see it as a great way to in the feasts themselves, like you mentioned, Andrew, they see

the foreshadowing of Christ and they feel it's a great way to honor the Jewish culture.

And there is not there's no technical reason why they shouldn't honor.

Those those sorts of a lot of those feasts celebrate what God did, obviously, you know, Passover and the escape, but they see

now they see now Christ in Passover as the modern version.

But they obviously don't do the sacrifices and they don't think the sacrifices should return

in the end times.

But they did a great job of pointing out this switch to rabbinical Judaism.

And I have I have the story in my book, too.

They go through the Talmud and they and they bring up a bunch of stories that are really

interesting from from a modern perspective.

There's there and I'm going to paraphrase it here, but you can get the full story in my book.

But there is a there was a a temple curtain or sheet

that they would that that they would put out during Passover and it would magically.

This is now this is not in scripture.

This is in the Talmud, which they consider, you know, it's an important part of Judaism.

Christians may not know that, though.

What's that?

Jewish people would consider that as authoritative as old as scripture.

Some of Judaism.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So what the story goes, that there was a white fabric.

I think it was a sheet or a veil or something, but that they would put it out during Passover and overnight it would

magically turn red as if the sheet was taking on the blood of the sacrifices.

And after the temple was destroyed in eighty seventy, according to the Talmud,

that that sheet never turned red again.

That that piece of fabric, it stayed it stayed white and they couldn't understand why.

But of course, the Jews that had converted at the time and that were now Christians and now following Yeshua,

they believed it was because the one final sacrifice, the once for all sacrifice, as it says in Hebrews

eight, 13 was Jesus.

And this was proof of it.

So it's interesting that there's little sort of supporting ancillary evidence in that in that other in that other sacred

scriptures that talk about maybe this was a huge shift.

And my my personal opinion is that God knew what was God knew what was going on.

Jesus predicted that the temple would be destroyed.

It came to pass in eighty seventy.

And it's almost like God said, all right, there you go.

The road is now closed.

I want you to take this other road.

I want I want you to follow Jesus.

There's my my messiah came.

And now I don't know if I don't know if the messiah took the turn and the Jews wanted

to keep going straight or other way around.

But either way, I feel like there was a kind of period at the end of the sentence when the temple was destroyed.

So and this is one of the things I argue with these with my tourist friends about is that even if

you wanted to, you couldn't live a Torah observant lifestyle.

And that's one of the things they really are.

They have a lot of pride about that, that the fact that they are observing Torah and Shabbat and all that stuff.

So, Nicholas, anything else?

No, not not really.

As far as regarding that question, I don't want to I kind of don't want to go off topic with what you guys are talking about

tonight.

So maybe I can.

Well, I'll keep you in the backstage and you can always put things in the private chat if you want to come back in

and have another question.

How old's the baby?

Um, Elijah is four months going on five pretty soon.

It's our first.

So he's right now he's in one of those sleep regression stages.

So we're having a really hard time.

I got really rooting out a lot of sin of anger and just impatience.

And yeah, it's just that stage.

So, you know,.

There's two very there's two things God uses to sanctify us the most in our life.

One is marriage and two is children.

Amen.

Exactly. Congratulations.

Thank you.

Yeah.

God's been really good because we were actually in a position where we were told without medical intervention, it wasn't going to

happen.

And then two weeks after we finished our perspectives class, we found out we were pregnant.

So it's just like, what in the world?

Because we thought that we were going to start pursuing overseas missions to like unengaged, unreached people groups.

And so it's kind of just like, well, maybe not right now.

So right now I'm going to just focus in on apologetics and just evangelism.

So that's, I've got a lot of questions as I read the word because yeah.

So to answer those.

Questions.

So yeah.

Yep.

Is that Australia on your, on your wall there?

Um, so actually here,.

Maybe I can turn my camera real quick.

So what it is, it's actually a world map.

Oh,.

You should see it there.

I did get Australia out of context, even Andrew.

That's impressive.

Yeah.

It's pretty good.

There's, there's a little itty bitty Hawaii.

It looks like a B on the wall.

Yeah. That's cool.

It's a lot bigger than Hong Kong.

I don't see that at all.

Yeah.

So we actually got that from a, I think we got it from Ukraine.

My wife ordered it online.

So pretty cool.

Just a good reminder to be praying for, for the world.

So yeah, that is cool.

But love your ministry, Andrew, a big benefit to me in my walk lately, especially as I talk to

coworkers weekly, there's a lot of challenges that come up.

So I will definitely chime in.

Lord willing, uh, next week.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Uh, next week, I'll, I was going to announce this later, but, uh, next week we'll,

um, Dr. Svester is going to be here.

He, he requests me to come on and talk about the topic.

Should Christians vote for Trump?

All right.

It'd be a barn burner.

Yeah.

Yes.

That'll be fun.

So Nicholas, I'll put you in the backs in the backstage.

Just let me know if you want to come back in with another question.

And, uh, Mr. Batman is back.

He dropped out, but he's back.

So bring him in.

Good evening, Mr. Batman.

Yeah.

I was trying to, what's, what's his real name?

The Batman Adam West.

No, that would be Bruce Wayne.

Bruce Wayne.

Oh, you're still in the work.

Okay.

Gotcha.

Yeah.

I see.

This is how pop culture literate I am.

I.

Was going to ask you, Mr. West, what your question was, but that's all right.

Well, um, my, my name, I get the name Batman.

Very honestly, I've been a Batman collector ever since I was about 10 years old.

I've been collecting Batman paraphernalia, anything with the Batman symbol on it.

Now I collected my wife, Robin, and she is the prize of my collection.

So together we are Batman and Robin.

Oh, nice.

And if you'd like to know more about me, you can visit my website at mr .batman .com where I do teach science and

apologetics for all ages.

Well, it, you know, we, we, I got,.

I put it up the comment from, uh, Chris Hahn holds who he he's captain America.

And, uh,.

He says he saw the bat signal.

So we got to combine that it's DC and Marvel.

It's two different.

Comic books, man.

Oh, you see, I don't get that.

I'm sorry.

Yeah.

Chris, Chris will correct me later.

I have no fear.

I will.

I will hear it on his podcast.

Um, how, how.

I don't know the difference between DC and I know the difference between Star Trek and star Wars.

Okay.

There we.

Go.

That's all you need right there.

Because now with the Corona virus, we're having to do the Vulcan salute to keep from shaking hands.

We do the live long and prosper.

And that happens to be a Hebrew blessing as well.

So that works out well.

It's actually, you know, it is kind of.

Funny.

Everyone in California, when I was out of California started doing this elbow thing, instead of even like

beginning of the week, people were doing a fist pump.

And by the end of the.

Week, everyone's doing this elbow bump.

I'm actually a teacher at an elementary school and I'm teaching my children.

It's because first graders, especially they want to come up and give you hugs and they're got snot running down and they touch

everything.

And, you know, I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, no.

Here go boys and girls.

We're going to do the virtual hug.

So I have them hold out their arms and I just say, hug, hug, hug.

And they do a little move.

And the one little boy did not want to do it.

And so I said, what's the matter?

And he likes dinosaurs.

And I said, come on, let's do the Tyrannosaurus Rex.

And I held up my arms real close to my chest and I said, hug, hug, hug.

And he really liked that.

So as long as they don't touch me, I'm fine.

Yeah, understood.

So what questions do you have for tonight?

Well, I was going to ask, why do we not keep the Sabbath?

That's a really good one.

Matter of fact, that was the one commandment that I had the most difficulty

understanding.

And as I dove into it, I thought in my discussions with Toreasm, I thought, well, this might be one where I

have to give them, I have to concede the point because they celebrate Saturday Sabbath.

So the Sabbath obviously is part of the 10 commandments.

It's the fourth commandment.

But also, as I'm sure, you know, it predates that even it goes back to creation and the rhythm God set up for life,

the six and then one.

So, but then interestingly, we get into the New Testament and we see Paul telling us, well, don't let

anyone judge you by a Sabbath day.

Actually, I think what he's saying there is don't let anybody judge you for keeping the Sabbath and keeping the festivals

because he's talking to people who are actually in a very pagan area that are now these people who are

keeping the Sabbath and keeping the festivals.

Are being judged for doing so.

Do you, Mr. Batman, what's your real name if you want to share it or not?

Jim, Jim Barber.

Okay.

Yeah.

Just so I have a name to call you.

All my information's on my.

Website for anybody who's interested.

I'm very open and honest about who I am.

Do you keep, do you worship on Saturdays?

I keep Sabbath.

Is that what you're talking about?

But I don't have a church in my area that actually performs what's called a holy convocation on the Sabbath.

So, I'll worship every day.

I go to church on Sunday because that's when the people around here go to church.

But I do, my wife and I do keep the Sabbath.

We keep it holy.

We don't work.

We don't make anybody else work.

We don't spend any money and we spend time with our relationship with God.

And with each other.

That's beautiful.

And the view you just espoused would actually be similar to the Presbyterian view, by the way.

On Saturday?

Not on Saturday, but they will have, they'll keep the, they will say that they'll view Sunday as

a day to keep holy where they won't, they won't work and they won't ask anyone else to work.

Sure.

But, and I understand their reasoning.

Behind that, but let me ask you a question.

Does the Bible say to keep the first day of the week holy or the seventh day holy?

Yes.

In the Old Testament?

Well, that's the Bible, isn't it?

Yes, but it mentions, yeah, so you start to see in the New Testament, you see the

apostles meeting on the first day of the week.

What does differences that have to do with what the Sabbath?

See, if you actually do something that changes the Old Testament, are you familiar with Deuteronomy 13?

And again, if you have somebody who comes and proclaims something that again, Moses has not proclaimed,

then you've got a problem because that violates the Deuteronomy 13 test.

Well, so here's where I would kind of challenge that, is that Jesus came and did things that

changed the Old Testament.

How so?

Well, sacrifices aren't required anymore.

Well, that's because the temple is no longer in existence, but again, that's happening in the spiritual temple right

now,.

But that's irrelevant.

Where did he change the Sabbath?

Jim, Jim, we want to have dialogue, so.

Sure, I'm happy with that, but I want to stay focused on the Sabbath.

Yeah, let him finish.

That out.

I mean, I will say we mentioned one earlier, the Lord's Supper would be an example where he changed Passover to something

different, but go ahead.

Actually, he didn't, but okay.

Okay, so here's what I ended up doing when I was looking into this, just to kind of let you know how I arrived

at what I arrived at.

I did a comprehensive, systematic look at the Ten Commandments in the New Testament.

So where are they mentioned?

I'm looking at where they're either clearly taught, endorsed, repeated verbatim.

So the way the Ten Commandments break down, the first three commandments, they're not repeated directly, but

they're clearly taught, and they're clearly endorsed.

The last six commandments of the Ten Commandments are literally repeated verbatim from the Torah.

The commandment about the Sabbath, though, is it's not repeated, it's not endorsed, it's not taught.

Now, I'm not suggesting that that means that it's no longer valid, but I'm saying it gives us pause,

because in the New Testament, the Sabbath, which, you know, when we talk about Jesus and all the teachings related to the Sabbath,

it's referred to more often as a source of controversy with the leaders of Israel than it is actually a

commandment to be kept.

So we start looking at that.

We start looking at the idea that as the New Testament unfolds, we see that the apostles are not only

taught, they taught Jews in the synagogues, right?

Let me pause for a second.

There's a whole chapter in my book about this idea of the crossover box.

So this is this time in history from Jesus' ministry until the temple destruction in 80 -70, where both

systems were running in parallel, Judaism and Christianity.

And I go into that in further detail in the book.

But during this time, what you start to see is they started meeting as Christians on the first day of the week.

And so, I mean, you look at like Colossians chapter two, right, that talks about the Sabbath being passed.

It shows that the old Sabbath, or in Greek, I guess it's plural, the Sabbaths, are passed away.

And then we look at that, again, the apostolic practice, frequently meeting on the first day, and we

begin to see a new pattern emerging.

Whereas the Jews rested on the seventh day, Christians rest and started worshiping on the first day.

Now, the question is, is that heretical?

Does that break the law of God?

Here's kind of the two distinctions.

Do we need to obey the Sabbath strictly as it was written in the Old Testament in the law of Moses?

Or is the concept of the Sabbath bigger than the law of Moses?

And I argue that it even predates the law of Moses.

And what it looks to is the six in one rhythm.

That was the rhythm of Israel.

It was the rhythm of the Torah.

But now, because Jesus came and we are no longer under the law, the old covenant has

passed away, we would be wise to continue practicing that.

I think that's beautiful that you're doing that.

And I think that's something we miss a lot in the Western culture, is this idea of intentionally

setting aside a day to worship God.

But does that day have to be, in God's eyes, the last day of the week?

That's the question.

And I came down on the side that it doesn't matter which day, the specific day of the week it is, but it is

wise of us to enter into that rhythm.

In Hebrews, it says that Jesus was the rest, the final rest that we entered into.

So that's where I landed on.

Very lovely.

Very lovely dissertation.

It's irrelevant, but it's very lovely.

Have you heard about, let's see, this is Exodus chapter 12, verse 14, where it says, and this day

will be a memorial for you, and you are to celebrate it as a feast to the Lord, as a lasting

ordinance for the generations to come.

Some translations even translate this into a perpetual ordinance.

How do you deal with the fact that the Sabbath is a perpetual ordinance?

What does perpetual mean?

Yeah.

So who is that written to?

It's written to Israel, sir.

Would you agree that all the laws are written to Israel?

No.

Really?

So who are the laws written to?

Because when, hang a second, the laws of Moses come from God.

Who did Moses get them from?

Okay.

But there were laws before there was a nation of Israel.

Yes, sir.

The Torah pre -exists its giving at Sinai.

As a matter of fact, Cain and Abel knew what sacrifices to offer.

That's why Abel had a good sacrifice and Cain did not.

Again, they knew what to do right from the very beginning.

That's called, see the word Torah literally means instruction.

God has given us in his instruction and he wants us to obey it.

Now, once again, Deuteronomy 13, if you look at that particular scripture,

this actually tells us exactly what it looks like when you have a prophet in your midst.

Deuteronomy 13 verse one actually says, let me get there real quick.

If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder and that sign of wonder

that he tells you comes to pass.

And then he says, let's go after other gods, which ye have not known and let us serve them.

You shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams for the Lord, your God is testing you

to know whether you love the Lord, your God, with all your heart and with all your soul, you shall walk after the

Lord, your God and fear him and keep his commandments and obey his voice.

You shall serve him and hold fast to him.

Now, how do you get that any of these laws have changed?

See, if God has written it in stone, in his finger, when he gave it to us at Sinai, it was actually given to us before

that, but he codified it in stone at that point.

So everybody could know it without any wonder.

So where in the new Testament does he do the same thing by canceling these laws?

Cause you think he would do us a favor if he's going to write it.

Okay.

Yeah.

That would be one to look at.

If you, I would love to get back to your original question about why does it not mean forever if it says

perpetual?

Yes, sir.

While you're looking that up.

So my response to you would be that in that passage, like for example, if you look at

Exodus, I think it's 31 16 about the Sabbath being celebrated throughout their

generations as a perpetual covenant.

When we look in the old Testament, the Hebrew word for perpetual, or that's translated to English

is the word Olam, which, which means perpetual sometimes, but in English you think of the

word perpetual, it means kind of continuing and lasting forever and all that kind of stuff.

Right?

Well, the thing is in ancient Hebrew, the word Olam is not so cut and dry, right?

Ancient Hebrew had about 9 ,000 words.

Current English has about 2 million words.

So they use that word Olam to mean a lot of things.

It could mean a long duration.

Sometimes it meant forever and always.

Sometimes it just meant an unknown quantity of time or a long quantity of time.

Sometimes it meant.

Yes, sir.

I agree with that definition completely, but again, that's irrelevant, sir.

Let me, let me finish up my point.

So if we look at the word.

Like Olam.

Hold up one second.

Hold on one second.

Jim, I muted you.

We're going to try to have a discussion.

So we, we let you explain your, your view.

I want Robert to finish what he's saying, and then you can, you can ask a question.

That's how we kind of do things here.

Just so you know,.

I know it's your first time in.

So, okay.

So, and I'll be quick and I'd love to hear your response, Jim.

So here's what I'm getting at with the range of meaning about the word Olam and why I think it is actually

relevant.

When we look at something that's, when we look at something that, for example, that uses that word Olam or perpetual or whatever we

want to call it, how do we know if that should be, which, which translation,

you know, which meaning we should assume for that translation?

So if we look at something like here, Exodus 31, 16, so the sons of Israel shall observe the

Sabbath to celebrate the Sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant.

Okay.

So if we're in, if we're looking at it from the lens of Judaism, which rejects the new Testament and

the scope of our context, that's not what Judaism does.

That's two different things.

Okay.

Jim, I'm, I'm muting you again.

I'm almost done.

If we're looking at it from the context of Judaism, which says, what, what could this word possibly mean?

And they say, I, we think it means perpetual forever, you know, a thousand generations, whatever it might mean.

When you take that word now and add the new Testament, which Christians believe is as much part of the Bible as anything

else, you now have a wider context and you have the Messiah and you have Jesus coming.

And you look at that and you say, okay, if God has chosen to sovereignly

reveal his will to mankind over time, and you only look at the old Testament, you might

reasonably conclude that meant forever.

When you look at the new Testament and Hebrews 8, 13 and, and Jesus, uh, talking about, well,

when you look at the, through the, through the lens of the new Testament, and we understand that the new covenant has happened, that things have

changed.

We now look back and say, oh, you know what?

That could not have meant, uh, that, that the Sabbath or the old laws were meant to remain

literally until the end of all time, because Hebrews, the book of Hebrews clearly says that the

old covenant is now passed away.

And it also says that when you have a, when you, when you have a, Jesus is our new priest.

And when you have a new priest, a new priesthood, which is in the minds of the author of Hebrew, a superior priesthood,

it also brings with it a new law.

So that's what I would point to.

So I'd love to hear your feedback, Jim.

Yes, sir.

Now, once again, can you show me, because we're going to use some hermeneutics.

Can you show me anywhere in the old Testament where that word perpetual is not perpetual?

Because again, I understand you're appealing again, sir.

And again, when we're talking about God's laws, where any of God's laws have now, wait a minute.

I thought I was going to get to have a talk here.

Hang on a second.

Hang on a second, sir.

Be quiet now.

Hang on a second.

Now there you go.

I will mute you because it's not your show.

You asked the question.

I'm going to give you the answer.

Genesis 6 .4, the word olam is used referring to those

who are of old.

Okay.

Deuteronomy, I'll just rattle off all the ones where it's used, not referring to perpetual.

Genesis 6 .4, Deuteronomy 32 .7, Joshua 24 .2,

1 Samuel 27 .8, Job 22 .15, Psalm 24

.7, 24 .9, 25 .6, 41 .13, 77 .9,

90 .2, 103 .17, 106 .48,

119 .52, 153 .3, Proverbs

8 .23, Proverbs 22 .28, Proverbs 23 .10, and Ecclesiastes

1 .10.

Should I go on for more?

Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

The fact of the.

Matter is, sir, show me any place where any ordinance of God is done away with.

The fact of the matter is, when we were talking about, no, you told me, you showed me where

different places that word is used in different ways.

I agree with that.

Again, but we're not talking about that.

You're using different references to talk about something you love.

Show me where this is referred to the law, where the law is ever done away with.

Show me where God abrogates any law, anytime, anywhere.

Now you keep appealing to the cross, and now all of a sudden we celebrate the Sabbath on the

first day of the week.

Sir, can you count to three?

Because I'm going to tell you that Jesus himself actually gave the prophecy of Jonah, where it says, for

just as Jonah was in the belly of the great fish for three days and three nights, so the son of man will be in the

heart of the earth for three days and three nights.

Now, sir, how do you get three days and three nights from.

Friday afternoon before sundown to Sunday morning before dawn?

Sure.

Before you answer that, this is a

common tactic I want folks, what we do on the show is teach people how to identify and help people with

hermeneutics.

This is something you guys who are watching or listening can see.

Notice what Jim's doing.

He asked a question.

When it was answered overwhelmingly, he changed the question and said it couldn't be

answered.

Then when that gets answered, he switches to another question.

It's a logical fallacy known as a red herring.

So you're shifting.

Where did the logic come from?

Huh?

I mean, you're using logic, right?

Doesn't logic come from the God of the Bible?

And isn't he totally consistent throughout time?

He does not change.

Malachi says, I am Yahuwah.

I change not.

That has nothing to do with what you do.

Because what we're talking about here is we're actually talking about how the word of God.

So Jim, what we're trying to expose to you in me saying this is

you're employing logical fallacies.

When you employ logical fallacies, you can't possibly, cannot possibly by your own, what you just said,

be agreeing with God because God is logical.

You're not being logical in your argumentation.

I want you to be logical.

I want you to make some good argumentation.

It's not that I'm, we're not here to try to win a debate.

We want a good discussion, but you can't talk over.

It doesn't make it for good discussion.

You got to stay on topic.

And that's what Robert asked if we could do.

All right.

So we're going to, we're going to try to.

Do that.

Does that sound okay?

Sure.

So let's stay on topic and show me in the New Testament where Messiah himself did away with the Sabbath.

Because if anybody, do you know what Stephen was stoned?

You know what Paul was, uh, you know, all the things he went through because people thought he was trying to do away with the

Torah.

You know, uh, when, uh, later on in the, in the Acts, also in other areas of scripture, you see Paul, you see

Peter keeping the Torah, keeping kosher.

When you have, uh, the, the Peter's vision where the cloth comes down three times with the clean and

unclean animals, the common animals in it, this is 10 years after Messiah is resurrection.

So once again, show me where Messiah tells us that we do not keep the Sabbath on the

Sabbath.

Now I go back to the three days and three nights, because this is what got me going down this path, because

we have to understand that we have been fed a line.

And again, it's very easily understood if you can count to three, because Jesus himself said there would be

three days and three nights.

Now, how do you get three days and three nights?

Could we, could we pause there and stay on this topic of three days and three nights?

Okay.

Okay.

So I'll let you finish your thought.

I just wanted to make sure, because you mentioned a lot of stuff and it's, it's fun and I'd love to jump in, but I just kind of want to pick one spot.

So, um, if you want to complete your idea about the three days and three nights.

Certainly.

Um, again, the three days and the three nights are very important because it's the only prophecy that Messiah himself said that would be the

sign that he is the Messiah.

And I love how he said it.

You know, the, the Pharisees come to him and said, give us a sign that you're the Messiah.

And as his most loving and compassionate voice, he said, you wicked and adulterous generation, no sign will be given to

you other than the sign of Jonah.

For just as Jonah was in the belly of the great fish for three days and three nights.

So the son of man will be in the heart of the earth for three days and three nights.

Now, if you look at it on a chart, I don't care how you count it.

Einstein couldn't do this.

You cannot get three days and three nights between Friday afternoon at sundown and Sunday

morning before dawn.

Sure.

Okay.

So I guess my response to that would be what we're dealing with here is not a math problem.

It's a language issue.

There are several Hebraic idioms, if you're familiar with them, such as three days and three nights after three

days on the third day that all mean essentially the same thing.

And I'll actually give you scriptural evidence for that.

If you look at Matthew 27, 62 through 64, it says the following the next

day, the one after preparation day, the chief priests and the Pharisees went to Pilate, sir, they said,

we remember that while he was still alive, that deceiver said, and I'm quoting after three days, I will rise again.

The passage continues.

So give the order for the tomb to be made secure until the third day.

Otherwise his disciples may come and steal the body and tell the people that he has been raised from the dead.

So what we have here is the Jewish official officials using the phrase after three

days and until the third day synonymously, it tells us that they meant them to mean the same thing.

They use those idioms to mean the same thing.

And elsewhere in the book of Matthew, Yeshua even has other predictions that he would rise on

the third day.

Look at Matthew 16, 21, uh, where it's where from that time on Jesus began to explain to his

disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, the chief priests and the teachers of the law, and

that he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.

Matthew 17, 22, the son of man is going to be delivered into the hands of men.

They will kill him.

And on the third day, he will be raised to life.

Matthew 20, uh, 18 and 19 on the third day, he will be raised to life.

So if you use your math skills, Friday's the first day, Saturday is the second day.

The third day is Sunday.

The only way to reconcile what you're saying with all the other scriptures.

And there's tons of them here is the, is this understanding of the Hebraic idiom.

We're not talking to when, when they said on the third day in three days, three days and three nights, those

all referred to in that, in that middle Eastern culture, the same timeframe.

Actually, I used the card argument when I was doing that same argument, sir, it doesn't work.

What you have to do is you have to look at the actual calendar, the Hebrew calendar itself.

Messiah was crucified on the first month of the 14th day.

That would have been a Wednesday.

He would have arisen on the 17th day of the month of the Aviv.

You can look this up yourself there.

Let me finish the statement.

One moment, sir.

So that would have been a Sabbath.

That would have been the Sabbath that Christ rose on.

The reason that the women find an empty tomb before dawn on Sunday morning is because

he was risen on Saturday afternoon before sundown between the evenings.

Gentlemen, I hate to bow out.

It's 9 .15 my time and I got to teach early in the morning.

All right.

So when Jesus said, I will be in like Jonah in the belly of the fish three days and three nights,

that was one thing.

Three days and three nights, 72 hours.

When he says that he will rise again on the third day, how do you reconcile those two

utterances from Jesus?

Well, sir, he's actually pointing to the fact of what he said as his only prophetic statement that he would be the

Messiah after three days is also three days and three nights.

That's 72 hours.

Mr. Batman .com.

I actually did a whole Sunday school lesson at my old church on the very.

Issue.

I'm going to, I'm going to mute you just for, because I understand the tactic.

It is a roughshod tactic of being a steamroller, just plowing through things.

And well, now he's gone.

So now I guess we could, we could discuss what he, but for folks, I mean, I want you to recognize

what he was doing there because we want to educate you guys.

So you can see that the tactics people use rapid fire, give a lot of details.

It, it sounds overwhelming, but I want to pick apart this and look at what he did.

72 hours.

What scripture verse says that was 72 hours, not a single one.

In fact, what you realize is that most people do not understand the way Jewish people

would see the beginning of a day.

It's not at midnight.

It's at the sundown.

When was Christ crucified?

Well, he wasn't crucified after sundown.

It was before sundown.

How do we know that?

Because they needed to get his body prepared because the next day

was a day of rest.

He's arguing that the, he, he made the statement of what day of the month it was and said, that was

a Sabbath notice.

Robert asked him support the argument.

This is what you see people do when they're doing rapid fire.

They want to steamroll you with what sounds like a lot of evidence and yet they

don't want to support any of it and can't go ahead.

Robert.

I was going to say, so let's, let's let that argument play out.

And I agree with you that, that is what he was doing.

He wasn't interested in reconciling the two, the two different types of comments.

But here's the bigger point for me.

What was, what was he getting at?

Was he telling us that Jesus was crucified on a different day?

That he was resurrected on a different day?

And how was he going to tie this in to have something to do with the Sabbath?

Because from the Christian perspective, since in the New Testament, we are no longer

under the Sabbath in terms of a day of the week that it has to be celebrated.

And since something happened on the first day of the week on the Sunday, which was essentially

the most important event in the history of all humanity, the event that split history in

two, Jesus was resurrected and brought to life on the first day of the week.

So this is why, this is why Christians have morphed over to celebrate the Sabbath

or what we call the Lord's day on a Sunday.

What he was trying to get at with the three days and three nights is a mystery to me.

And I actually wrote about it in my book, which is why I had some of those verses kind of at hand.

It was, it's a comment I heard consistently.

There's even these pretty charts to go along with it that show the sundown and when the day starts and whatnot.

But there really is no larger point underneath that three -day math assertion.

You know what I mean?

Or at least if there is one, I don't get what he's driving at.

Well, and let me address, let me see if I can find the comment, put it up here.

Here we go.

Shia Luke, I might've mispronounced the first name, forgive me.

I said wrong.

He was buried on the day of preparation, Friday.

Okay.

This is a problem that a lot of people have.

What was the day of preparation?

Okay.

What is the Sabbath?

The Sabbath was not only Saturday.

The Sabbath was also the day of Passover.

That's a Sabbath.

That's what it would be called.

Also the day of unleavened bread.

That's a Sabbath.

So these are Sabbaths.

So the fact that there's a day of preparation, is it for the

Saturday Sabbath or the Sabbath that was for the

unleavened bread?

Now, what we have in scripture, God speaking, God's very word,

a record that they worshiped on the first day.

Why?

Because that was the day Christ rose.

So it couldn't be, for people that are going to try to say, no, it

has to be on the Friday.

Well, then God is lying.

When God is giving the...

Now, when we do hermeneutics, we have to make a distinction between what's prescriptive and descriptive.

So the Bible is not going to be in error in its description

or in its prescriptions.

But the fact that the Bible mentions that David had many wives doesn't mean we should have many wives.

That's description.

It's accurate in the fact that David had many wives.

But here's a description describing the fact that they worshiped on that day because that is the

day Christ rose.

Now we have that timeframe.

We know when that is.

We know why they worshiped on that day.

So what I think you saw is a...

And for folks, I encourage you to go back, re -listen to this, and watch what he was doing.

Because when you start to pick up these tactics, you'll see that a lot of people do these things.

He wanted to...

Yeah, and it's difficult.

Being on the other side of the coin, it's difficult, and as a younger man, I couldn't even do it, to not

jump in because you feel you already have the answers.

He even said some disparaging remark about how he had dealt with that, whatever he said, anemic argument a

long time ago.

So in his mind, it was settled.

And while he was talking, I was praying and asking God to show me what I

should say and where I should say it.

And at the same time, I wanted to listen to what he had to say in case there was something for me to learn.

And I feel like that's a big problem that we have on both sides, especially

when we're out there trying to share the truth.

And it's almost like they have these pre -built snowballs that they're ready to just throw at you

instead of actually breaking it down and discussing and saying, oh, you made a point.

Let me respond to your point.

Let me think if I agree with that point or not.

You know what I mean?

You had to force it to be a discussion through the all -powerful mute

button.

And I get where he's coming from.

And I get frustrated on his behalf because I know he really wants to talk and talk,

like you said, the steamroller thing.

But I just pray that something that we talked about landed somewhere that it

could grow.

You know what I mean?

Because I feel like he's probably, this is me, this maybe isn't you, so I'm not speaking for you,

Andrew, but I give people the benefit of the doubt that they actually are interested in trying to find out the truth about God.

They're at least making an attempt.

That's why they'd show up and want to talk about that stuff.

So somewhere in there, other than the guy who wants to win an argument, I'm hoping was the.

Guy that wants to find the truth.

Yeah.

And see, when you have the rapid fire like that, I mean, there's one thing he was making

an argument that you have to have the New Testament say something in a very specific

way about the Sabbath.

And if it doesn't say it that way, then it's not true.

Well, the Mormons, sorry, the Muslims do the same thing to us.

They say, you show me where Jesus said, I am God, worship me.

That doesn't exist, does it?

No.

But that doesn't mean he didn't claim to be God when he said, I am, or the father and I are one, right?

Claims, but he didn't do it in the way they want.

Now, an interesting thing he also said is that the law was

codified in stone.

Which law?

Okay.

There's five uses of law.

That which was codified in stone was, we know as the 10 commandments.

As you mentioned earlier, there's how many commandments?

613.

Yeah.

Okay.

Five in the.

Old Testament.

Yeah.

So right there, he's arguing for two different uses of law, which is a fallacy of

equivocation.

He's equivocating on the word law, using them two different ways.

Right.

And then claiming that's the same.

And what was interesting is that you paused to point out his logical fallacy of the red herring.

He didn't defend it or try to argue against it.

He just kind of bounced off and went in a different direction.

He did it again.

Exactly.

He doubled down.

I thought that was interesting.

And again, you would hope someone would say, well, wait a second.

I don't think I'm doing that.

Am I?

You know, and pause.

I had a lot of that.

God gave me lots of humble pie to eat while I was working on this tourism stuff because I do just openly,

I have that tendency to want to win an argument.

It's that competitive nature.

And for me in the dealing, and maybe it helped that these were my friends.

And then the folks that I kind of eventually ended up talking to, they weren't my friends, but I sort of approached them that way

to say, look, I don't know everything.

And I actually don't want to win an argument.

Matter of fact, many of them, I even like the Jewish group in Jerusalem, I said, I'm not going to argue at all.

I just kind of want to know your position.

Just you teach me.

I want to sit here and listen.

And when we don't have that, when our hearts are hard, it's hard for, it's hard for us to ever learn.

We put a ceiling on ourselves, you know?

Yeah.

So I think that, and I agree with you, I don't know where he was going to go with the whole

72 hour thing other than to, I think, and this is hard because we don't have him here now,

but I think what he was trying to prove was that we were fed lies

and we can't trust our interpretation of the Bible.

Now, this is another thing, maybe you guys could pick up what he did.

He threw out the word hermeneutic.

Did he actually apply any hermeneutics?

No, he mentioned the word, it gives credibility.

And then he went rambling on just a whole bunch of statements of a whole.

Bunch of claims without any support.

Right.

Matter of fact, he totally tried to sidestep my hermeneutic on the word alam.

He wasn't interested in that.

And what did he do?

He brings that up.

I mean, he's the one that asked the question, show me where that word is used anywhere else.

Now I was going to give him just the one verse, but since he kind of butted in, I'm like,

I'm just going to give you a whole bunch because, and I didn't even give, I mean, there's more than that of the usage, okay?

It's used that way 48 times in the Old Testament.

So that was, I think, a simple thing.

And for folks, pick up what Robert did with this.

This is one of the things I picked up in your book that I hadn't recognized.

And I thought was an excellent point.

You brought it up tonight.

The number of words in the Hebrew language compared to other languages, whether it be Greek or

English, you have a limited number of words, which means you're going to use

words for multiple meanings.

Yeah, exactly.

And I think that's an excellent argument that you made.

Oh, Melissa dropped out.

I was just about to add her.

Okay, Melissa, come back in.

She had a question, I think.

See if she put the question in here.

She said she was reading about Leviticus.

So I don't know if that was her question.

We'll see if she comes back in.

Let me bring Atomic Apologist in, none other than the hat -wearing

John Wilkinson.

How you doing, sir?

Hey, I'm good. I'm good, I'm good, I'm good.

We'll put him backstage.

Oh, I'm sorry.

You're mean, man.

You are just mean.

It's okay, man.

I got my leather Bible right here.

Oh, the red Schuyler.

You know, I have my...

Oh, wait, no.

Hold on, hold on.

Just because he got the nice Schuyler fiction, but I got... Schuyler fiction?

Your red Schuyler Bible.

I got my nice ESV heirloom here.

And I know for a fact, this one costs less than yours.

Okay.

Okay.

That's okay.

I just picked up, yesterday, I just picked up Foundations of the Christian Faith by

Boyce.

So I'm really happy about this.

And then I also saw, I also found Van Til's Christian Apologetics.

So I'm really excited about this little guy right here.

Oh, cool.

Yeah.

The one by Bonson?

No, by Van Til.

Oh, okay.

I have Bonson's kind of collection of the Van Til catalog.

Okay.

All right.

All right.

Cool.

John, I'm going to get to your question, because Melissa's back in here.

So again, make sure we have time for her.

Okay.

Well, you said earlier in the beginning of the show there,

these guys, they recognize that Jesus was this human, and they

recognize him as a Messiah.

But how do they get around Isaiah 53 or other major

prophecies when it comes to that point exactly to Jesus?

I mean, is it similar to what the Jews do?

Or is it, I mean, both of you guys can probably answer that, but I mean.

Yeah, Torahists are different in that aspect.

So Jews skip that forbidden chapter altogether, you know.

One week at the synagogue, you go through Isaiah 52 and stop halfway.

Next week, you're at 54.

Torahism doesn't reject Isaiah 55.

They actually embrace it and say, look, Jesus was the suffering servant.

They embrace all of it, but somehow they interpret it to be mortal, a mortal Messiah.

Where Israel, or sorry, the rabbis will interpret it as the nation of Israel.

So they will deal with it.

And if you read through the text, I mean, just read Isaiah 52, the end of 52 into 53,

and ask yourself, is this a person or a nation?

And just a simple reading, I think, makes it clear it's a person.

Okay. I think Rabbi Singer has a teaching on that.

Right.

Yeah.

But Rabbi Singer, so very interesting.

There's a reason that Tovia will not debate Michael Brown.

They did two debates.

One that was recorded, but Tovia did not want it released.

And from what I understand, I mean, I've not been able to find it.

So I think, I guess Michael Brown honored that.

But the second one, one of the things that happened in the debate was that

Michael Brown, and I'm not a fan of Michael Brown.

Some folks know that.

But Michael Brown said that there's rabbis who interpret Isaiah 53 as

referring to Messiah.

He said there are no passages like that.

And I think Michael Brown started it by saying, well, if I find one,

will you convert to Christianity?

And Tovia says, yes.

And if you can't find one, will you convert back to Judaism?

Well, after that show, he came up with four references of rabbis that refer

to it.

And so he was very upset with that.

And he ended up saying that there was editing that was done.

My understanding, the editing was done.

They both approved the edits.

It was done to fit into a radio format.

But I think from what I understand from Michael Brown, the issue was he produced that

and Tovia didn't convert.

Well, I was just going to say, when's Tovia's baptism?

Yeah, well, that's because God does the converting.

And here we got evidential apologetics in the pre -sub, right?

So John, anything else?

No, that's it.

So Melissa can go ahead and jump in.

So thanks a lot, guys.

Okay.

Great show.

Melissa in here.

Melissa.

Can you hear me?

Yes.

And Melissa does a show, a podcast called... Truth Be Told Radio.

I was just going to say Truth Be Told, then I went blank for a second.

Yeah, it's on laptop radio website, Truth Be Told Radio, on Sunday 2 p .m. to 4 p .m. Pacific

time.

Okay, my question, I was, I think you guys kind of answered it, but I'm going to say it anyway.

I was reading Leviticus, like, there'll be certain laws and they'll say,

this will be a statute forever.

And so then, then I'm saying, like, how could that be?

Obviously, we know that Jesus, like, like, I

don't know how you call it, abrogated or something.

Yeah.

And I was trying to address this with Jim when he brought it up.

And this is, I mean, he used the word hermeneutics.

I want to apply some hermeneutics.

So in Exodus chapter 12, verse 14, which is what he referred to,

that passage, and I think he may even have put in, they shall be a

memorial day that you shall keep as a fest, as a feast

to the Lord throughout your generations as a statute forever.

Yeah.

We'll keep it as a feast.

And the word actually, you know, forever, the statute as forever appears a couple of times there.

Now, the question I asked him is who is it being written to?

In other words, this was being written to a nation of Israel.

Okay.

If anyone's been listening to my rap report podcast that the weekly one that drops, we're in, we dropped

two parts of a four part series on what

is the church.

And we've been addressing these things because this is a big thing you end up seeing.

And this is what he was struggling with.

I'm going to be curious to see what Robert ends up responding with, but the, you have

Israel, the elect, and we were talking earlier in the show about being grafted in that's the elect

those believers.

And then you have the nation of Israel.

That's people that are not elect, but they're both the nation of Israel.

You have the same thing in the church.

And we're dealing with this on the podcast, on the rap report podcast, because we're talking about the church, the, the

visible and the invisible church or the local and universal.

So you have, you have the elect church, and then you have people that gathering are called the church, but they're not elect

same nation of Israel.

So the question you have to first ask when interpreting is who wrote this

and who's it being written to these are commands to the nation of Israel,

referring to both unbelievers and believers, elect and non -elect they're both included in that.

And once you see that difference, okay, then the laws are not just for

God's people.

They were for a nation.

And, and so the question then becomes, why does that apply to a different group of people that

are made up of elect and non -elect, but they're not the nation of Israel?

Okay.

That's how I would end up answering it, Robert.

That's an awfully good answer.

Yeah.

I mean, I would agree with that.

And I'm sorry, I was just, was this Exodus 31?

I can't remember the scripture that you mentioned.

The one I referenced was, and that he brought up was Exodus 12, 14.

Oh, it's actually 12, 14 to 28 as it covers it.

Okay.

I think I, I think I responded to him about a different one, but I believe it's the same Hebrew word.

So I don't know if you heard any of that kind of explanation.

I'm talking to Melissa.

If you heard that explanation to what's his name, Jim Batman.

Yeah.

I was listening.

Okay.

Yeah.

So that I would kind of respond to that way as well, is that hermeneutics you need to start with,

as Andrew said, who wrote it and to whom, but we also need to understand when we look at it, we need to

understand it in the context of the entire Bible, the entire storyline of scripture.

So if we find something later on that seems to contradict or

conflict with something we read earlier, we need to make sure that we're resolving that conflict

within the context of all of scripture.

So we're, because the Bible is, it does not lie.

It's not, it's inerrant.

So if there's a conflict, that conflict is with us to try to harmonize.

And so the, the point that I was making to Jim, the Batman guy was that when we

see a word like forever in the old Testament, and later on, we see something that was,

that makes it appear that perhaps that thing doesn't exist anymore.

For example, the Levitical priesthood was supposed to be forever, according to the old test.

It's no longer, we know it went away with, even if you don't want to be a Christian, you can admit there's no more Levitical priesthood

after 80, 70.

So the Bible didn't lie about it.

What, what does that mean?

Well, now we need to go back and look at that Hebrew word, alam, and say, maybe that wasn't being used in the, until the very literal

end of time, maybe what it meant is for a long time, or, you know, for an era or an epic kind of thing.

I think that's an important concept too.

I would kind of want to point out is this idea that, and this is a big thing with, with the,

with the Torahists is they, they, they tend to interpret new Testament events and things

like Jesus, but they limit the context of that interpretation only to, only to the

Tanakh or the old Testament.

Right.

So the analogy I like to use, it's like, it's like the movie, it's like the sixth sense if you saw that movie.

Right.

So you go through the whole movie, I'm not ruining it for Benny, it's pretty old, but yeah.

So near the end of the film, you know, you get that shocking revelation.

Oh my gosh, the psychiatrist guy, the Bruce Willis character, he's been dead the whole time.

Wow.

That's crazy.

So once you get that revelation, now, if you went back and watched the movie again, which I remember doing that a second time,

all of a sudden you're looking for those clues because now, you know, what happens at the end.

So you're starting to see this stuff at the, that the director put in there.

You know, like Malcolm's wife was ignoring him.

You're like, wow, she's really mean.

No, actually, now that we look back, she couldn't see him because he was dead.

Yeah.

Same, the same concept holds true with the new Testament.

Now that we know that Jesus has come and that he's inaugurated the new covenant in his blood and

all these shifts have taken place, he actually didn't abolish the law as it Matthew 5, 17, he

fulfilled the old Testament.

So now we can go back from the beginning and say, okay, what, what must've that have meant when they said such and such would last forever.

So that's kind of what I'm talking about when I'm talking about getting the wider context of the.

Whole body of scripture.

It's, it's almost as, you know, many who would hold to covenant theology would say that we interpret

the old Testament from the new.

It almost seems like the Torahists.

Want to interpret the new from the old.

Right.

Exactly.

That's exactly.

Yeah, that's a great way.

I should get a new edition of my book out.

That was good.

I'm putting that in there.

Yeah.

I mean, you're exactly right.

Because Jesus himself is the key that unlocks the meaning of every biblical text.

Right.

Yeah.

So he makes sense of the old Testament and now, and even, and it's pointed to in the new Testament that, that

the feasts and all that were a shadow of the real thing that was to come.

And Jesus was the real thing that they were pointing to.

Yeah.

I'm reading a book right now.

Progressive revelation, instead of taking that, which is right.

They want to go back and say, no, no, no.

We, we got to interpret the what's newer, the newer revelation from the older.

Yeah.

I'm sorry, Melissa, you were going to say something.

Yeah.

I just saying like, I'm reading a book now, like it's saying how like God is without

passions.

Like one, one point it'll say God regretted, but then it says in their part that

God doesn't regret.

Like, so it's like, it's weird.

It's like, it's like, you can't do it from the same, from our same point of

view, like as a human, God's different.

Yeah, exactly.

And even beyond that, I would urge you to consider, and we, we got in this a little bit with Jim

consider the Eastern culture in which that book was written.

Oh yeah.

You know, I'm actually reading a great book right now.

Misreading scripture with Western eyes.

It's a good book.

And what it talks about is how we as Westerners Americans come to the book thinking in a

Western individualistic way isn't necessarily wrong, but we get so much more meaning

if we unlock how an Eastern culture and honor shame culture, a collectivist culture, how they would have intended

and meant their stories to be understood to their audience.

It's really interesting.

What's that book called?

It's called misreading scripture with Western eyes by Rand E Randolph Richards and Brandon J. O 'Brien.

Brandon J. O 'Brien.

Yeah.

Very eyeopening.

I'd show it, but unfortunately my.

Books are packed, but this book available, Toraism, which

if you go to the website and you can get it on Amazon, you can even get it in Kindle, but

you know, just, I mean, if you take a look at Robert, he looks kind of hungry.

He needs to eat.

So go directly to tourismbook .com and pick up a copy of tourism.

Are Christians required to keep the law of Moses?

My suggestion to you is to buy several copies because you're going to run into a gym of your

own.

It's good to be able to give that to them and say, here you go, read this and get in touch with Robert

and you run my way.

Yeah.

Give his, his, you know, his blog site, you know, rlsolberg .com is it?

That's right.

Yeah.

And so give him that site, just let them go there.

And that way you can run for it.

That's what I do.

Melissa.

Well, thank you very much.

Let me bring in the last person that's been in here for a while here.

The Aussie who with a great first name, Andrew, how are you,.

Brother?

Not too bad.

Sorry.

Jinx had to swallow at the beginning.

Okay.

I want to regress because I thought it was actually pretty funny.

Maybe we could end on a lighter note.

At the beginning you said there was

a, what was it?

The art of the covenant and how seven of them disappeared.

Oh yeah.

Yeah.

Just wanted to flesh that one out.

Well, okay.

So I was going to go with it because I was thinking.

Well, what the guy was trying to say was that the arc had been discovered.

It was under a mountain that they had several people that tried to

move it.

And when they went under the mountain to find it and to get it, they all died.

And so the only person alive that knows its location and has

supposedly seen it is this one rabbi who gave testimony to where it

is.

But with the warning that if you go to get it,.

You're going to die.

So how do we prove?

Oh, right.

So like, okay.

So the arc was being put on the oxen and somebody

decided they were going to stabilize it by touching it and they.

Died.

Yeah.

But see, in this case, yeah, I guess something like that.

But this is, since Robert's going to do movie illustrations, I'm going to

go even further back to a movie.

Because I didn't see that one.

No.

Because I actually watched this movie, but Terminator, they go back in time and they can't bring

anything with them.

One police officer says, how convenient that you have a story that you can't bring anything that

collaborates your story.

There's nothing you could bring.

You have to come through the time naked.

So you can't bring anything that would be able to verify the story.

That's sort of what this reminds me of it.

Anyone that looks at it is going to die, except for the one rabbi who writes about it.

I guess he doesn't die, but everyone else does.

So you can't find it because it's there, but I guess it's hidden.

That's funny.

It's convenient.

Where are the bodies?

Yeah, well.

Where are the bodies if they die?

I think he said that they vanished and so they're gone.

So you don't need a body.

See how convenient that is?

So like some kind of rapture.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Very rapture.

Yeah, I don't.

All right.

I'm not going to take that one.

What was it in the 70s when the pilots decided or the airlines decided that one Christian

pilot was not going to be flying with another and they were going to put the atheist pilots with Christian pilots because if

the rapture happened, they wanted somebody to land the plane.

Then what happens if the atheist gets converted?

Oh, all right.

So I don't know if the atheist gets converted, but anyway.

John wanted to come back.

That was an interesting joke.

You have anything else, Andrew?

Because John wanted to try to jump back in before the end.

Oh, that's it.

All right.

So we'll bring.

Jump in.

All right.

Look at that.

It's the Brady Bunch.

Yeah.

John, welcome back.

I just want to come back to you and come back to the show real quick and just say, dude, I can't believe

Bruce Willis was a ghost.

Why didn't you say spoilers?

What the heck, man?

You didn't say that.

Why weren't you paying attention?

I think 20 years is beyond the statute of limitations for spoiler alert.

Now I got to see the movie.

You ruined it for me.

Well, I never saw the Ghostbusters movie, so don't tell me how that ends.

They bust ghosts.

Yeah, I don't even remember.

I did see that movie.

I just the only thing I remember of Ghostbusters, other than the line, you know, who you're going to call Ghostbusters was the big marshmallow

blowing up that as a kid.

I don't know.

That was just hysterical to me.

So all right.

So someone is someone someone's asking John if there's going to be an after show.

That's up to you.

I'm probably not because the other computer I have is just not working that well.

So all right.

So all right.

So we'll put John and John in time out.

I mean, backstage.

So I was almost going to do that to Jim.

It was getting kind of close there, but he he left, you know, beforehand.

So real quick before we end, give folks again, plug the book,

plug your blogs, let folks know how to get in touch with you.

If there's anyone who's listening who has a podcast, I recommend you get a hold of Robert and get them on your

podcast.

More people need to be getting copies of the book, Tourism, because we're dealing with

this.

I mean, it was good to have Jim come in so people can see the arguments.

We're reading the comments.

You're seeing some people arguing there.

And this is not an unusual thing, unfortunately.

Right.

Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah.

So let me thank you, first of all, for promoting this.

I really appreciate all your support.

I'm going to I'm going to throw some shout outs back to you.

These are awesome books.