December 5, 2018 Show with Vocab Malone on “The Infiltration of the Black Hebrew Israelites into the Black Church” PLUS Gerren Shider on “The Testimony of a Former Black Hebrew Israelite”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors,

Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, quote, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

Now here's our host, Chris Arntzen. Good afternoon,

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

This is Chris Arntzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Wednesday on this fifth day of December 2018.

Yesterday many of you who heard Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, in fact all of you who heard

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio know that our guest yesterday was Vocab Malone and we are delighted to have

Vocab back on the program for the second day in a row. Yesterday we basically received an introduction to what the cult the black

Hebrew Israelites is all about and today we are going to be specifically addressing in the first hour the infiltration of the black

Hebrew Israelites into the black church. Vocab Malone is contributing author to our

God is Triune, Essays in Biblical Theology, and he's the author of Barack Obama versus the

Black Hebrew Israelites, an introduction to the history and beliefs of One West Hebrew Israelism.

And the second hour of the program a friend of Vocab's Jaron Scheider, who is more commonly known as Brother J, or should

I say Brother J? Brother J, he is a former member of the black

Hebrew Israelites and he's going to be giving his personal testimony on how our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ drew him out of that cult and rescued him and saved him.

But first of all it is my honor and privilege to welcome you back for the second day in a row to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Vocab Malone.

Thank you so much my man Chris. I told Brother J, I said hey you're gonna have fun.

Chris interviews you because when you tell a joke he's gonna laugh. I'm trying to be as funny as possible.

He better hope the only time I'm laughing is when he's telling me a joke. Sometimes it's very eerie sometimes

Vocab when I am laughing my brains out on this end and I have noticed that there is a odd uncomfortable and strange silence on the other end.

That does happen sometimes. I'll try not to do you like that. Well let our listeners know in summary what the black

Hebrew Israelites are. Again there are probably a lot of people who missed yesterday's program and let our listeners know actually before that a summary of who you are and how you got to become involved as a

Christian apologist interacting with black Hebrew Israelites. Well yeah my name is

Vocab. I live in Phoenix Arizona but I first encountered the Hebrew Israelites through my friends in Columbus Ohio where I'm originally from and I've been running into them ever since then online and actually in the street sometimes we go out when we know where they're at and speak to them on the corners as well and the reason why

I'm involved was because I saw a need that I felt wasn't being fulfilled and I was involved heavily with with Islam as far as doing apologetics to Muslims and things like that at the time but I saw even though that was a pressing need

I saw there was other people doing that and I said well maybe I can switch my number one focus from Islam to Hebrewism and keep

Islam as number two because because I see a great need and I just didn't see it really being filled with apologetic material and yet there was a lot of apologetic questions being raised and that decision paid off as far as me learning a lot and seeing some fruit of which you're gonna interview brother

Jay who came out of Hebrewism and things like that but I'm still like hey guys if someone wants to come along and take my place

I'll go back to doing some stuff on Islam just let me know but for now I'm not literally saying

I'm the only person doing that I'm just saying that not everyone involved is willing to put themselves out there probably as much as I have

I think that's probably fair to say because these guys can be unpleasant sometimes but nonetheless

God is good and I'm glad to discuss it because I think it's a good warning and we can be proactive once we hear the problems presented

I hope well praise God and I do want to let our listeners know that my friend

David would many of iron -sharpens -iron radio listeners are very familiar with that name

David would because especially when I was broadcasting it of New York on WNYG and WGBB radio on Long Island David would was actually the most frequently interviewed guest on this program he is an apologist with the x -17 apologetics network

I'm doing this off the top of my head that's the name of his ministry right x -17 apologetics network you got it and he told me that vocabs book

Barack Obama versus the black Hebrew Israelites an introduction to the history and beliefs of the one

West Hebrew Israelism is the best book in print on the black Hebrew Israelites and he would not throw that kind of a compliment around loosely in fact he is the one that urged me to interview vocab yesterday and I'm glad we have him back well what you told me

I can't remember right now if you told it to me on the air or after we were off the air but you told me that there is a serious problem in the inner city especially amongst church amongst congregations that are dominated by black members there is a serious problem with an infiltration of the black

Hebrew Israelites into some of these congregations and if you could pick it up from there well yeah it's it's so there's so much that it's difficult to know really where to begin but even if we went all the way back to the first time we see the

Hebrew Israelites sort of appear on the landscape they've always sort of been a leech on the church what

I mean is that's where they they get their their members from is sort of the lifeblood of the church in the city much like in some ways the

Jehovah's Witnesses up very frequently the stats I've seen are that most Jehovah's Witnesses that that go that way have been prior prior involved in some way in some kind of Christianity and at some level they're poorly church people and the the

Jehovah's Witnesses come along and swoop them up see a very similar phenomenon you don't hear a lot of atheists going into Hebrew Israelism for example but you do hear people who say

I went to church I tried that so going all the way back I mentioned yesterday William S Crowdy 1896 he had a visionary experience where a voice told him that the blacks of America were actually the

Israelites of old he began a church called the Church of the Living God and that church is still around in some form or another there's actually a couple different varieties of it and you can look it up and the sects still view

William S Crowdy as some kind of prophet because of this this truth he brought forward another example is

FS Cherry in 1915 out of Philadelphia and a lot of these guys came out of a

Christian background and then they swooped Christians into their movement another one in 1900 Warren Robertson 1900 in Virginia the name of that group was the

Temple of the Gospel of the Kingdom and so my point is that this has always been the case you could call

Hebrew Israelism a parasitic movement maybe you could say it's it's Dracula it's a vampire upon the neck of mainly the black church but as the movements growing it's also getting more and more

Hispanics and Latinos involved as well into some of the groups so now the problem is just becoming exacerbated because Christianity's sway is falling away not only in a broader culture but even in the black community and so it's sort of easy pickings more and more the

Hebrews elect have been trying for years to move into the Bible belt with very little success it's mainly been a northeastern phenomenon however the past ten years really even the past five years

Chris that has changed now you're seeing these camps pop up all over the

Bible belt from Tallahassee to Oklahoma and everywhere in between without exception that's one of their largest growth sectors now is in the south and so this is a problem and not only that you actually see examples of some actual churches flipping where the pastor actually flips the church into a

Hebrews like congregation now granted these are syncretist style churches they're not identical to the guys out on the street with a sandwich boards and the picket signs and the laminated posters they're not as bad however they still all have those doctrinal problems

I mentioned yesterday which is denial of the Trinity a denial of Christ divinity a denial of the

Holy Spirit's role in person and who he is some kind of works -based salvation usually they say you got to keep the law to attain some kind of salvation and some kind of ethnic hierarchy all five of those errors they still have that could give example after example but that's kind of the introduction to the problem

Chris yeah yes and by the way I don't know if you're aware of this but I have a friend who is a thoroughly knowledgeable expert on the unification church the moonies as they have been called who has told me that unlike what many people wrongly think the moonies are actually a larger cult than ever before and people don't realize it because they have many many many many names that they use other than the unification church and they have infiltrated predominantly black and Hispanic churches in the inner city as well because they also offer these churches a lot of financial support and he has told me that many of the ministers in the inner city have been duped into moons heretical doctrine yeah that's bad now there's the difference of course is the centralization aspect is absent in Hebrew Israel ism there is no governing body there is no central leader authority now each individual camp or church does have usually a very hierarchical authoritarian structure but there's no one there's no you know kind of a pope of the

Hebrew Israelites in any meaningful way that's what even makes it more concerning to me because it's such an organic thing so let me give some examples you could go online right now and look up a website called straightway truth s -t -r -a -i -t way truth and there you'll see on the front page a large group of people and you'll notice immediately there's a lot of kids present you'll also notice that it's not all people of color clearly it's almost half you know of people of color and half white folks now how is that in a congregation that embraces

Hebrew Israel ism well what happened there in Tennessee with the leader whose name is Pastor Dow as he calls himself who by the way teaches polygamy and so you know you kind of get an idea of what you're getting real fast there but they're in Lafayette Tennessee and they have a couple branches throughout the

United States very prominent on the internet the reason is because not all the

Hebrews like teach that non -israelites as they see them non -israelites will be doomed to servant servant status or something like that some of them teach that you can be grafted in and so Pastor Dow's so -called ministry is an example of that now prior to flipping into Hebrew Israel ism he was a charismatic

Pentecostal leader and the strange thing is even though Hebrew Israel ism is all over his videos he still embraces very

Pentecostal things such as exorcism and even talks about speaking in tongues and things like that so it's syncristic and it tricks people who don't really know what's going on um one time he mentioned me when he was speaking and he said oh vocab like so just quote the church fathers now that's that's not true that's not how we are you but we do go into church history sometimes to show for example that Hebrew Israel ism has no pedigree and he said

I'll tell you who our church fathers are Abraham Isaac and Jacob that's our fathers and so that's kind of mentality that you have with Pastor Dow often when he's doing this video you see him in the background with an

AR -15 and he'll be you know talking some stuff about the law that keep the feast days supposedly or some kind of quasi charismatic thing and you can all see this right there on the website and you might even understand why some people could get trapped into this but that's an example

I don't know the date of when the straightway group flipped over all I know is ever since I've been on the scene

I've seen them them around and that's a very good example it's not always the naked wall crash street styled

Hebrew Israel ism and in fact when it infiltrates the churches it usually takes on a different form Pastor Dow's church there is a perfect example that's one

I can give you more just let me know what you want me to do oh yeah you can continue to give us more all right cuz

I like to give little pauses and breaks so people can ask questions or whatever they need to do all right another

I might as well what since you said that I might as well give out our email address if you would like to join me on the air with a question for vocab

Malone on the black Hebrew Israelites our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com CHR is a

RNZ and a gmail .com please give us your first name at least your city and state of residence and your country of residence if you live outside the

USA only remain anonymous if your question involves a private matter okay pick up where you left off there awesome another great example is the

Philadelphia Christian Church they're also in a city called Lafayette but they're in Louisiana not

Tennessee and their group there the Philadelphia Christian Church is um is larger than Pastor Dow's and according to pastors that I've spoken to in the area really really is exhibiting some kind of influence in the area and in fact they they're doing conferences called school of the

Hebrews they do all the school of the Hebrews stuff there now let me show you something to show you how pernicious and sneaky basically a

Hebrew Israelite Church because there is such a thing now unfortunately can be by reading simply here the about section under Pastor Omar Tabu that's the the man who is the leader of this congregation

I'm gonna I'm gonna pick up right here because I think this might be of interest to your listeners he began preaching he began preparing for his calling by attending

New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary in 2006 he accepted his calling to the ministry since 2007

Pastor Omar Tabu is shepherd of the flock of Philadelphia Christian Church now if you read the bio there's nothing in there about Hebrewism in any way there's none of the telltale signs immediately and it's especially interesting that he went to a

Southern Baptist Seminary the New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary that's a

Southern Baptist school now bless their hearts it's a bastion of Arminianism but nonetheless that's where he attended and yet they do all this school of the

Hebrews stuff that is that is Hebrew -Israelism in every way now it's very difficult to make out what a lot of these folks believe what exactly is their

Christology it's not fully determined yet what is you know some of their other views still working that out but it's a

Hebrew -Israelite group and the pastors on the ground there that I've talked to really has showed strong concern but let me just real quick show you the last couple videos on the school of the

Hebrews YouTube site which is has 28 ,000 subscribers which is substantial Hebrew cosmology

NASA is fake never went to the moon Hebrew cosmology the globe is false science

Hebrew cosmology the earth is not a globe now you may be saying what does that have to do with anything well probably a quarter of Hebrew Israelites are flat earthers and so that's a dead giveaway the flat earth stuff right there but let me give you one more title just to show you and if you went on this website everyone you'd be like oh he looks like a pastor that looks like a podium it has a cross on it they've got flowers on the background this looks very normal but then you see this title that says 400 years time is almost up an hour and 40 minute video what's that all about well let me tell you how long were the children of Israel in Egyptian bondage the first time approximately 400 years how long has there been black slavery in America approximately 400 years because in Jamestown in 1619 they brought some black slaves what's the year next year 2019 that's 400 years remember yesterday we learned about Deuteronomy 2868 how they view

America as the new Egypt well if it's the new Egypt there's going to be a new Exodus that means at the 400 year mark time is up so you go on the website but the thing is

I know this a lot of Christians who might be impressed with his speaking and his unique approach to scripture that seems very

Hebrew influenced and they just like the name school of the Hebrews they might be impressed by this but then they get sucked into Hebrew Israel is the next thing you know very very dangerous because I have soteriological implications because none of these groups have a have a proper soteriology in any way and Omar Tabu is another example and all these ministries

I'm telling you about Chris all of them appear to be growing I've been kind of keep a tab on them I'm not saying I have numbers in my back pocket or something like that but I could tell you by all the telltale signs they are clearly growing another example and like I said you can stop me what

I'm gonna go more now to us to a couple of specific leaders or individuals there's a guy named

Ron Shields divine prospect he calls himself that's really what he calls himself he's actually dialogued briefly with dr.

James White and even attended one of his lectures so they've met who is divine prospect what's his deal well he's in Atlanta Georgia and historically he's been seen as some kind of champion for the

Hebrews lights because he's by far the most gifted of them in the academic area they generally not very strong in that area divine prospect aka

Ron Shields has defended them against attacks by other groups including me so him and I have debated and dialogued because I'm seeing

I'm seeing I've seen by some of them as a threat to Hebrew Israel ism well what's been happening lately with him he has been transitioning he's trying to take his

Hebrew Israel ism that he's been he's by far the most notable apologies he's trying to take it into the churches

November 2nd through 4th there was a men's conference night hosted at King Emmanuel missionary

Baptist Church all the men pictured here are all pastors in fact one of them is from Hartsville Presbyterian now

I don't know what kind of Presbyterian Church he is but one of the speakers at this conference was actually a

Presbyterian and you can go and see this online as well guess who's speaking at the conference

Ron Shields speaking at the conference as well this is a

Hebrew is like this is somebody who when I debated him said that he was agnostic in regards to the bodily resurrection this is somebody who believes that there's a council this is someone who's a heathen of the ism oh

I'm not gonna get all the details basically you believe the multiple gods this is somebody who said that you can't even fully fault the

Canaanites for the child sacrifice they did because that was their cultural way to worship and Yahweh hadn't appeared to them and so we can't condemn it as all -out immoral and these are things that all came out in debates

I did with him the list goes on and on this is someone who denies Trinitarian baptism him and I tangled on that and Matthew 28 18 to 20 and he claimed it was a textual variant and James White actually had me on the dividing line to and I say this humbly but I say this also talking a little bit trash put the total academic smackdown on divine prospects claim 28 20 to 20 so these this guy is speaking at a men's conference at a missionary

Baptist Church so there's a couple others I'm gonna give but I need to take a drink of water and here we you have to say brother

Chris well I'm wondering in your opinion from what you've observed and because of your interaction with these folks what is the draw for a church to become so fascinated and intrigued and impressed by different versions of the black

Hebrew Israelite movement that they would open up their doors and put out the welcome mat and invite these people into their pulpits and actually allow themselves to be transformed from from one degree to another to embrace their teachings is it's like for instance there are and there have been for for quite a while unfortunately churches in the black community in the inner city especially that have been seduced by the nation of Islam you know you will have

Baptist churches on occasion giving their pulpit to Farrakhan and there seems to be a camaraderie about the social justice movement if you will or black pride in opposition to white oppression against the the black community that those kinds of things are so so much a part of the social gospel of the black church at large that they will become allies with people that deny historic

Christianity and I'm sure that there are other reasons but is that what you see going on here with the black

Hebrew Israelites different well when it comes to divine prospect for example

Ron Shields who spoke at this men's conference I don't think any of these other speakers have any idea who he is or what he's doing

I don't know who he knew at the conference to get on but I get the impression that they don't really know they just think he's a young man who's intellectually gifted and speaks well or something like that I don't think that they actually understand now what it does is it makes them appear more credible in the eyes of some of some of his followers of which he has a substantial amount he also teaches polygamy he's a polygamist as well the these groups they they have different ways to infiltrate now in regards to your question about people who are more knowingly doing this well you know this is tough because to be honest

I see sometimes some of the same kind of hypocrisy within other churches for example

I think you know some of the coziness that churches have gotten with Donald Trump and some of the people that have been speaking it at engagements such as at places like Liberty University or what you see down there with the

I forgot his name on top of my head but the pastor in Texas who who has these basically 4th of July celebrations inside his congregation there and you

Pastor Jeffress you're talking yeah yeah you see this kind of compromise because there's a lust for worldly power and stuff and back in a day when going back was more popular he threw this rally at the

White House lawn and he's praying Mormon praying Mormon prayers basically and the evangelicals are there you know going back amen and all this it's just what is going on well so there's a susceptibility to this kind of compromise no doubt no question but here's what it is it's almost like just like I'm not saying this is excusable some people say well you know

Donald Trump did this but he also did this they're kind of weighing his negatives and positives in their mind well a lot of these folks in regards to some of the people you mentioned do the same thing and I'll tell you what

I mean there are constantly got problems he's a heretic he's a false teacher but in the nation of Islam's heyday when they would decide to clean up a block

Chris they had the power and clout to push off drug dealers from the block right and in the neighborhoods they would literally guard the projects and the drug dealers were vacant now the nation of Islam is they're really shrinking in size and influence as this happens they're not able to do those kinds of things but people remember things like that and they see

Farrakhan speaking about fatherhood and being a man and being a leader and starting your own business and taking risks and and we you know people on the outside are just like well yeah but see they they see that and they're and it's almost like well he's got these eccentric things we're gonna put those on the side so there's these all these challenges that I'm just trying to what

I'm trying to do Chris there with that is not make excuses I'm trying to give people sort of an empathetic heart

I'm not trying to excuse anything I'm not an apologist for the in a wide nation of Islam but I am trying to give people an empathetic heart that helps them to kind of have a window into the problems in the in the community maybe where they kind of understand how this compromise could happen now when it comes to the

Hebrew Israelites it's somewhat similar because there's churches who feel like detached from Christianity oh

I'm sorry detached from history they practice a Christianity that feels detached from the history of the

Christian Church and they practice Christianity it feels very detached from the context of the Bible and all of a sudden the

Hebrew Israelite starts bringing up things from the Old Testament and and connecting things where they never saw these connections before and it feels like oh this

I'm getting connected to the actual roots of Scripture again because remember a lot of times these prior to this were prosperity churches or maybe extreme type of Pentecostal churches and so the

Hebrew Israelism looks like a much more robust doctrine than what they were getting into before so it actually to a lot of people feels like an elevation a step up believe it or not and I'll give an example within mainstream to an extent

Christianity as well this is happening with something called the Hebrew roots movement there's something called the

Hebrew roots movement that infiltrates a lot of churches especially those who have tendency or lean in the direction of what you might call messianic

Jewish and Hebrew roots has really created a problem for a lot of these churches because they they do this thing called the one law so I don't call themselves the one law people saying there's one law for Jew and Gentile and they use that as some kind of excuse but basically just go back to Old Testament stuff much like Judaizers of all of the people that the author of Hebrews is warning against lining up with and so this kind of thing is happening in other places as well so you see that there as well and then this you see pastors taking three offerings of service driving around in fancy cars talking you know with all these catchphrases and all this kind of stuff and in the kind of amassing power for himself and I'm not saying you see this everywhere because this is this is this is what some people's perception is and some people's experiences this is not the case with everybody or everything

I'm just telling you sort of the view that I get from a Hebrews like to use identifying as Christians in some way and Hebrewism doesn't come along and it looks much more modest it looks much more humble it looks much more democratized the men are going to be part of the leadership all of a sudden not just one guy up there it looks much more masculine it looks like a very attractive alternative and not only that instead of talking about making the pastors pockets fat basically with his new generous spaceship to preach the gospel on Mars like Creflo Dollar said he wanted to do if we ever discovered life on Mars what do you have you have somebody who's talking about economic empowerment in the community somebody who's getting very practical instruction about child rearing in the community by the way

I want to start a movement to send Creflo Dollar to Mars join me on yeah yeah

I don't know if the cost is worth it but uh maybe we could get one of those Acme rockets or something like that yeah it's a real it's a real or the real issue and so it's really multifaceted with what's going on and some people just don't know meaning when these things are happening or these guys they just don't understand really exactly what's happening somebody think it's just another

Christian group oh they just they just meet on Saturdays a great example of that is the gathering of Christchurch I mentioned them briefly yesterday in fact if you could pick up on the gathering of Christchurch when we return from our break yes sir and if anybody wants to join us our email address is

Chris Arnson at gmail .com if you have a question Chris Arnson at gmail .com don't go away we'll be right back after these messages

James White here co -founder of Alpha and Omega Ministries and occasional guest on iron sharpens iron radio

I'm so delighted my friend Chris Arnson will be heading down to Atlanta for the next g3 conference from January 17th to the 19th 2019 we'll all be joining a very impressive lineup of speakers on the theme a biblical understanding of missions speakers include

John Piper Steve Lawson Bodhi Balcombe Mark Dever Conrad Mbewe Phil Johnson Josh Bice yours truly and many more

I hope you all join Chris and me for this phenomenal event for more details go to g3conference .com

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G for group dot org forward slash podcast hi I'm Stephan assistant professor of systematic theology at IRBS theological seminary in Mansfield Texas I accepted this call to teach at the seminary because I'm firmly convinced that the people of God in the churches of our

Lord Jesus Christ need to be firmly grounded in the truth of Holy Scripture I'm excited to be teaching such subjects as the nature of theology and the doctrine of Scripture and even the doctrine of the person and work of Jesus Christ our churches and our people need to be well grounded in these truths indeed future ministers of the gospel need to understand these truths in order to proclaim them to all of God's people if you want to learn more about our program visit us online at IRBS seminary org my name is

Steve Lawson founder and president of one passion ministries as well as teaching fellow for Ligonier ministries

I serve as professor of preaching and oversee the doctor of ministry program at the master's seminary in Los Angeles I would like to recommend the church or one of my preaching students

Andy Woodard serves as the pastor it's called New Covenant Church NYC they are a reformed

Baptist Church that meets in midtown Manhattan you can find their service times and location on their website which is www .NCC

.NYC they believe in a sovereign God who commands all men everywhere to repent and believe the gospel if you're looking for a church that believes in expository preaching which is simply biblical preaching in New York City I'd like to recommend that you visit

New Covenant Church NYC again their information can be found at www .NCC

.NYC have a great day James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here if you've watched my dividing line webcast often enough you know

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PTL Bible rebinding dot -com welcome back this is

Chris and if you just tuned us in our guest today for the first hour is vocab

Malone we are talking about the infiltration of the black Hebrew Israelites into the black church and the second hour we're going to be joined by Jaron Scheider aka brother

J who is a former member of the black Hebrew Israelite cult and is now thanks be to our

Lord and Savior Jesus Christ a born -again believer in Christ and we're going to hear his testimony in the second hour if you'd like to join us with a question right now for vocab

Malone our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com Chris Arnzen at gmail .com

and if you could pick up where you left off the gathered the gathered

Church of Christ or the get I can't remember the name of the cult that you were talking about gathering of Christ sure there you do descend out of that radical faction called

One West from New York that I mentioned yesterday however they've modified enough of their positions now that if you went to their website as I have done or attended one of their services you might almost think you're just going to a

Christian church that meets on Saturday now James White actually debated their head leader a man named

Elder Rakah twice I set up the debates the debates are very interesting and they really expose the lack of knowledge that the leader of the second largest

Hebrew Israelite camp has the first largest is IUIC and the second largest is

Gathering of Christ Church as far as the One West groups go now GOCC I've known of people who mentioned they went there and they thought it was just different style church but they thought it was a church and you know they've thrown away with the hardcore slavery doctrine that that white people and Japanese and Chinese and Arabs and Indians will go into slavery for for all the kingdom they've thrown away that into a doctrine that says you just have to recognize us as the teachers but you can still fellowship fellowship with us as as brethren and so they'll have white people for example eating at their

Passover feast something that the other more hard -line groups criticize them for but it's made them look a lot more like it

I mean just think about the name Chris gathering of Christ Church that almost sounds like you could call it Calvinist Church that does it right yes yes seriously and that's it now they're that they have a different understanding of that but that's another example is it's very sneaky and here's what's going on the more this thing grows the more it diversifies and I was talking to pastor

Eric Mason about this the other day and we were quite concerned because he was showing me some videos he had found of folks who were clearly middle to upper middle class who were espousing their version of Hebrew Israel ism on some of these popular internet videos that he had found and we watched them and he said this is troubling vocab because when something starts taking root in the middle class it that gives it stability and he said this is a real problem he leads a reform church out there in Philadelphia Philly and Philly and he's most certainly right because the younger

Hebrew Israelite the Hebrew Israelites movement when it was younger was comprised a lot of kind of wayward young men or burnt -out older men to be honest with you that is changing and one time

I went to now this this is it directly related to the infiltration of Christian churches but one time I went to one of these um services on a

Saturday at the local IUIC congregation and I just waited outside and kind of observed I didn't go inside or anything although I did talk to them at the end but anyways

I was shocked at the amount of full -fledged families coming out of there these are middle -class people who love their families who have professional jobs and are caught up in a really dangerous call so people

I think are unaware of what's happening and here's usually what happens people are unaware till they run into Hebrew Israel ism like a friend or a family member or somebody that they knew from church or Bible college years ago then they start to realize how big of a problem it is and how ill prepared they are to deal with it so I'm just trying to kind of lay the groundwork so people are caught off guard because it's it's it's a growing not a shrinking problem no doubt about that and let me tell you a very sad story now this is a very sad story this is the

I wanted to say the worst for last Chris there's a congregation that is a reformed

Baptist Calvinist all the way congregation in Florida both of the founders the head elders are highly trained in seminary they think they had graduate degrees in and above from reformed seminaries now both men were black so the black reformed leadership structure but the congregation itself was about sort of half and half is a very diverse wonderful beautiful congregation down there right well slowly but surely the main kind of a lead elder he started kind of taking in some

Hebrew Israel ism doctrine and the other elder did not really realize how serious it was he just thought the elder had some interesting questions you know next thing the other pastor knew the other elder and according to the congregation because I interviewed them this is one of the smartest men almost all of them had ever known in their life they said so it really shook up the congregation said hey

I'm a Hebrew Israelite now I've rediscovered my roots and I am leaving and he had done a lot of groundwork convincing the congregation but to the point to the point where about half the church left with him that is utterly amazing you're talking about a trained man what theologically trained in the reformed faith so this is obviously one of those glaring examples of the supernatural powers of darkness because obviously no sane and educated person would adopt these these evil and insane ideas this church well because I went down there and visited them in Florence spent some time with them after this happened this churches was certainly one of the most

Calvinistic churches you could ever go to I mean they're very deep and to to the reformed faith in every way you can imagine and it's a real tragedy what happened is it went from a mixed congregation church basically black and white church to a church with one black family the remaining elder was the only black family left they all left all the folks left with them so some pretty tough stuff and so that that that that's kind of a shocking thing but the thing is that happens and unfortunately

I haven't even given all the examples I have another example I could share about a Christian rapper who's actually not really a

Christian rapper who's infiltrating Christian rap circles in Buffalo New York I have another example

I could give about the pastor in Texas who turned his keys over to one of these camps and the canopy turned his keys when

I say keys I mean the keys to the actual physical building of the church this camp that he turned his keys over to the ISU PK is one of the most hateful groups out of the whole

Hebrewism spectrum I mean they are vicious in their racism there's no nuance with them at all so this is a problem and um

I know it's not on everyone's radar Chris but what I'm trying to do is spread the word so there's a proactive awareness and what the church can do is be proactive in some of the issues because they're real felt needs that are going on here and the church can say let's let's recognize some of these legitimate concerns and deal them deal with them with a gospel solution because if if we don't there's a real danger that some cult will come along with it with what seems to be an answer because remember what dr.

Walter Martin said so many years ago the cults are the unpaid bills of the church and I do think there's a lot of truth to that when it comes to Hebrew -Israelism

Chris yeah this is pretty frightening well

I think it would probably be good to remind our listeners the four or five primary distinctives of the black

Hebrew Israelite movement that they share in common at least because it is a multifaceted group as you have been explaining the big one for them anyway is the ethnic hierarchy now

I just mentioned ISUPK which took over a Christian Church in Texas ISUPK are unadulterated racists and if you ask them about this they'll say well

God's a racist look at Romans it says Jacob I have loved it Esau I have hated they equate

Esau with the white man so they say look there God himself is a racist so yeah we're racist too but that's the way you're supposed to be as an

Israelite so they're they're all the way there and then there's the other groups I mentioned such as GOCC which will have white folks and folks who have an

Asian persuasion hang out with them at their Passover's and call them brother and sister yet they all have some version of an ethnic hierarchy with the tribe of Judah who they identify as black

Americans at top and the Benjamites whom they identify as Jamaicans and whatnot right behind in the in the

Levites who they identify as Haitians right behind and everybody else kind of falling in line they all have an ethnic hierarchy and in some way or another it results in ecclesiastical constrict constrictions

I heard of a story of a man who was a teacher in Israel of God which is supposed to be the most moderate group out there and he was a very popular teacher well he found out his lineage was different than he thought much later in life after he was already a popular teacher in this

Israel of God movement meaning his father was basically white and he didn't he didn't realize this he didn't know this well since they consider lineage to be on your father's side guess what happened to this teacher in the

Israel of God who was a very popular teacher they set him down he's not allowed to teach black people because even though he looked black to them his father was a white man and so he doesn't have the biblical authority to teach the

Bible yet he can only learn that that's that's an ethnic hierarchy if I ever saw one the other ones are meritorious works keeping soteriological systems basically some version of a works -based system and I gave the example yesterday of actually this week funny that's brother

Jay about if you get around to it he debated the Hebrew Israelite a guy out of Chicago who now lives in Arkansas and in that debate even though brother

Jay quoted all the New Testament passages about circumcision being and you know the veil is nothing now in the

New Covenant he asked him so do you need to be circumcised to be saved and the guy said yes you got to be circumcised so they all have some version of a workspace salvation as well they all deny the

Trinity and they all deny the deity of Jesus and the Holy Spirit so those are big five big problems sticking points for me now do they have

I'm sure that they do if you could tell us what some buzzwords and catchphrases and things like that where if a church is being visited by strangers who seem to be religiously knowledgeable about certain things but they're not quite sure whether they are quote -quote kosher how would one typically detect that they are speaking to a black

Hebrew Israelite that might not come out and use that phrase if they start asking about who fulfills the curses of Deuteronomy 28 if someone starts asking that even if they're saying

I hope that that that's a dead giveaway if they start talking about who are the people of this book if they kind of use some kind of terminology like the people of this book in the modern era that's another dead giveaway if they're overly interested in them in the ethnic identification or the in their mind the proper identification for Jews or Israelites in the modern era that's another giveaway if they point to verses about Sabbath keeping and then say well why are we here on a

Sunday if they say now that could be a Hebrew roots person to be fair but that's another thing that a

Hebrews light will do also if they show signs of sacred name movement the sacred name is where you've got to have the right name of God to to kind of please him

Jehovah's Witnesses are guilty of this even though they don't even have the right name anyway because Jehovah's Course is anglicized but but if they if they make some big deal about the actual name that's another giveaway as well if they if they keep on using this phrase our people need to keep the laws statute to commandments if they keep on repeating something like that some variation of laws statute to commandments that's another dead giveaway as well so there's a number of things right there another thing of course is a is they they often try to prove that Jesus is black they do that as a way to to get their doctrine sort of foot in the door because once a person convinced

Jesus of black they're more willing to listen to the whole Hebrew is like schema the way the Hebrews I should generally do that is going to Revelation and they'll say look he had wooly hair now the text of course doesn't say that it says his hair was white like wool which has to do with the splendor of Jesus that was actually brought up I don't know how old you are but that was actually brought up on the old sitcom from the yes you know it's funny

Chris that you mentioned that the reason I know that is not because I watched it it's because Hebrew Israelites always talk about it they love that clip they love that clip so yeah that's that's an example and it and what did the lady say she said it looks like Ned the wino or something like that you know what's funny about that Chris the

Hebrew Israelites actually teach that the flame or the fire the red eyes of Jesus that are portrayed in Revelation they actually teach that some of the groups teach that that's

Jesus drinking alcohol and he's ready to smash on his enemies right after he just drank alcohol some of them actually do teach that from being red -eyed from drinking alcohol

I'm not I'm not even kidding so those are some dead giveaways when you start hearing stuff like that if they use a peculiar version of Hebrew so for example yeah for Jesus and yeah for God if they start using that that's their own special language that's another giveaway if they ask you what who you are on your father's side and then based upon what you say for example if you say well

I'm a Native American and they say you're the tribe of Gad because I don't know people recognize but a lot of these groups actually accept

Native Americans on the 12 tribe chart so if they ask what what your ethnicity is and then assign you a specific tribe that's a real dead giveaway so there's some of them well

I want you to give our listeners all of the contact information your YouTube channel and all that where they can start hearing you teach and how they can communicate with you etc awesome well the main place

I'm active is on YouTube youtube .com slash vocab Malone I go live at least twice a week on a show called backpack radio live where I interact with listeners and lately even have an upwards of 150 people on the live stream but once we just hit 10 ,000 subscribers so as long as YouTube doesn't shut us down which eventually they will in the meantime we're gonna make best use of it on there because it's a way people are learning unfortunately actually more and more these days so that's the main place then on social media from periscope to Twitter to Instagram to Facebook to gmail to snapchat all those different social media

I'm the same across the board at vocab Malone B -O -C -A -B -M -A -L -O -N -E literally it's the same on all those social media platforms and so I'm easy to track down that way

I do have a couple of traditional websites such as vocab Malone .com and another one called backpack radio .com

another one called streetapologist .com but that's not really where I'm most active I'm most active on social media and my book is available on Amazon just type in vocab

Malone or type in black eaters lights it's usually the fourth or fifth entry to pop up great well thank you so much for very late notice being our guest today and also thank you for introducing me to our second guest will be coming up after the station break

Jaron Scheider aka brother J who's going to be giving his testimony as a former black

Hebrew Israelite who is now all to the praise honor and glory of Jesus Christ a born -again believer so thank you so much vocab we look forward to having you return to our intrepid

Zion radio in the near future thank you so much for Chris for being faithful the ministry God has given you and I look very very much forward to hearing brother

J's interview because he's one of the most dynamic exciting guys involved with this whole area

I love hearing him speak and I think your listeners be greatly blessed by a story of hope and empowerment through the gospel and it's affected his whole family and I've been able to meet them in Texas and they're just wonderful beautiful folks who are still recovering in many ways but have experienced the grace and redemption of Jesus in a new powerful way and it's a beautiful beautiful thing to see great well god bless you brother and we look forward to hearing from you soon yes sir god bless thank you

Chris and don't go away folks because as I mentioned and as we mentioned Jaron Scheider aka brother

J is going to be on next after this elongated station break and he's going to be giving his testimony as a former black

Hebrew Israelites our email address if you have a question for brother

J is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com CHRISARNZEN at gmail .com

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I'm Dr. Gary Kimbrell senior pastor at Bethlehem Baptist Church in Laurel Mississippi and I'm hoping that many of you who listen to Chris Arnson's Iron Sharpens Iron Radio program will join

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we just have a few special announcements for upcoming events that you that we want you to be aware of the upcoming

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Pastors Luncheon is going to be held Thursday January 3rd at the

Carlisle Pennsylvania Fire and Rescue Banquet Hall that's Thursday January 3rd from 11 a .m.

to 2 p .m. all men in ministry leadership are welcome whether they are pastors elders deacons or leaders in parachurch organizations.

Dr. Tony Costa of Toronto Baptist Seminary where he serves on the faculty as professor of apologetics in Islam he will be the speaker at the luncheon it's absolutely free of charge and not only will you be fed for free but you'll be leaving with at least one or two heavy sacks of free books donated by most of the major Christian publishers in the

United States in the United Kingdom everything is free of charge nothing is for sale at the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Pastors Luncheon if you'd like to attend send me an email to Chris Arnzen at gmail .com

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com and put in the subject line that you want to register for the

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Pastors Luncheon. Then later that week from Friday January 4th through Sunday January 6th

I am organizing a three -day conference featuring Dr. Tony Costa at the

Enola First Church of God in Enola Pennsylvania where my friend Pastor George Jensen is the pastor.

Dr. Costa will be speaking on the theme the most dangerous threats to the Christian Church in North America in the 21st century and it's absolutely free of charge in this event is open up to everyone you don't have to be a man or a man in leadership you could be a man woman or child you don't even have to be a

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Enola First Church of God you can also go to their website enolacog .com

enolacog .com and you can also email me at Chris Arnzen at gmail .com

and say I want to go to the three -day conference with Tony Costa or something similar.

Then towards the middle of January from Thursday the 17th of January through Saturday the 19th of January I will be returning to the

G3 conference in College Park Georgia which is a suburb of Atlanta the

G3 conference is this January going to be on the theme the mission of God a biblical understanding of missions it's going to be held once again at the

Georgia International Convention Center and the speakers include Dr. James R.

White, John Piper, Stephen J. Lawson, Vody Baucom, Conrad M. Bayway, Tim Challies, Phil Johnson, Todd Friel of Wretched TV and Wretched Radio, Stephen J.

Nichols the president of Reformation Bible College the college founded by R .C. Sproul and Ligonier Ministries and many more are on that lineup if you want to register either to attend or also to man your own exhibitors booth if you have a business professional practice a parachurch organization a church or a special event that you want to promote in the crowd of between four and five thousand people you can register for an exhibitors booth as well at G3conference .com

G3 conference .com and that stands for gospel grace and glory in case you're wondering and then after that at the end of the month

I will be heading out to Mississippi for the very first time in my life for the

Deep South Founders Conference that's going to be held January 24th through the 26th I'll be manning an exhibitors booth for Iron Trip and Zion Radio there as well at the

Bethlehem Baptist Church of Laurel Mississippi the theme is sanctification the speakers include

Rusty Reed, Gerald Henderson, Jason Goodwin, Bobby Crenshaw and the keynote speaker is

Dr. Conrad M. Bayway if you'd like to register for the Deep South Founders Conference go to DeepSouthFounders .com

DeepSouthFounders .com last but not least if you love Iron Trip and Zion Radio and you don't want us to disappear from the airwaves please donate to us as frequently as you can and as heavily as you can by going to IronTripandZionRadio .com

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chrisarnsen at gmail .com our second guest today if you haven't heard already is

Jaron Scheider aka Brother J he's a music producer he's a Christian R &B artist and Christian apologist who spent nearly four years as a member of the

IUIC Israel United in Christ cult which is a camp within the black

Hebrew Israelite movement before his new life in Jesus Christ and today he's going to be addressing his testimony as a former black

Hebrew Israelite and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time ever to IronTripandZion Radio Brother J.

I appreciate it, appreciate the invite. Well if you want to join us on the air with a question for Brother J send us an email to chrisarnsen at gmail .com

Brother J tell us about your upbringing what kind of religious atmosphere if any you were raised in and how was it that you first became introduced to the black

Hebrew Israel Israelite movement? No problem my background grew up in a very religious family almost everyone is a pastor elder deacon or something and so I grew up in a religious family very musical family in the apostolic

Pentecostal holiness Christianity I grew up in where you know you you had to speak in tongue to be saved and all that type of stuff.

Wow. Yeah so you know I never while growing up I never did speak in tongue so you know of course you don't think you're saved but and I was a musician so with me being a musician in a very religious family but they were all in different type of churches as well

I ended up you know I experienced you know I grew up playing in Pentecostal holiness apostolic

AME Baptist I kind of grew up in all those those factions there and when

I got older I always felt like something you know something was missing or whatever the case is and even though I grew up religious and in a

Christian church I didn't live as a Christian should live and so you know

I just felt like something was missing as I got older well when I was younger just starting I was all about the music I didn't really want to go to church half the time

I was drugged there by my mom and dad a lot of times because I was the only keyboard player and but when

I got older I didn't you know I started kind of growing out of that phase of it just being about the music and I wanted to actually hear what people were saying when they were preaching and and after a while of that I ended up moving away because I went into the military went to the

Air Force and while I was there I was still in going into Pentecostal holiness church

I tried denominational churches and different things like that and eventually got to a point where and I was one of you guys that because of the misunderstanding of baptism that there was taught

I thought every time you back cleared or something like you got to come back you re -baptized and all these

I got baptized about four or five times in my life but and so I finally got to a point where I felt like something was missing about it

I didn't know exactly what it was and I'm gonna give you the short version of this story because this is a years process here but and so it finally got to a point where me and my wife after getting out of the military we moved to Georgia and while we were there she had a thought that was just like you know

I wonder if any Jews believe in Jesus you know because where we grew up in the church we went to it was barely mentioned about Jews really like that unless you're talking about the

Old Testament law and so she had that question she flipped across the channels and came across a misguided

Jewish man talking about Jesus and so she started listening to them I was kind of in my own world you know

I wasn't really caring and and so before that I actually had experience

I guess I gotta mention this so you guys can see the connection but I had experience one night while we've been in our house in Georgia where I woke up in the middle of the night and I was just laying there on the bed for whatever reason and then

I started hearing this loud almost horn alarm type sound in my right ear and as it revved up it was like and as it revved up my body vibrated

I couldn't get off the bed so it went on for like five minutes and so after it went away I could finally move around and I'm like I looked at my wife and my oldest boy at the time

I said I know ain't the only person who heard this so then I was like let me lay back down if you come back so I lay back down maybe five minutes come go by and then it comes back and while it's while the alarm sound is going on my body's tingling

I can't move I remember my mom used to tell me when I was young she used to say that uh when you have those type of experiences where you try to get up off the bed and you can't it's a witch riding you back and then you gotta say geez geez geez geez geez a bunch of times and then it'll leave but she mentioned that you're scared when that happens but the whole time

I was going through this experience I wasn't I wasn't afraid I was very calm but it was happening and I was very aware of my surroundings and but I tried to do the geez geez geez geez thing she taught me and and I knew my mouth was moving but my eyes were open so I could but my literal mouth wasn't moving if that if somebody can kind of picture that and so uh so eventually it went away next thing

I know I'm waking up so I'm calling everybody or every you know person I thought would hear from God to tell me what that was and nobody had an answer for me and so time goes by maybe a couple months a year to well a year a couple months to a year my wife didn't have that question

I want to see any Jews believe in Jesus and so while she's looking on at this congregation Pastor Mark Blitz out of Seattle Washington at the beginning of services they have these guys come and play shofar horn now prior to that I didn't know what

I know nothing about it so far but I'm playing a video game in the living room she's like hey come look she knows I do music and stuff like that so she thought

I'll be interested in that the shofar a shofar drives a limousine right I'm only kidding I know it's the

Rams horn musical instrument used by the Jews like you know come look at you guys about ladies are these horn things and so I'm done ignoring

I'm playing the video game and then I'll see so she she plays it on a laptop at the table and and so I hear the sound when

I heard the sound I dropped the remote and ran over there to see what it was doing and I said hey rewind that back so then you want it back and then uh and played it again and uh and they came up there one guy had a long horn if anybody know about the

Rams horn or the shofar the longer it is the deeper the tone um and the shorter it is the higher the pitch and so uh so they played it um and I man that's that sound

I was hearing that night when I was vibrating on the bed and I couldn't move and uh and so from that point

I started listening to uh you know the path of my bliss that's when I first started hearing about you know the laws of Moses and things like that and the peace days and uh and what they and what they meant and that and they were still a practicing by tradition church where they still practice defeat um and so I uh we tried to do it it kept failing man we were trying to follow along but it was just failing and um and I became legalistic because I was as I was reading through the law you obviously you see you know this is perpetual covenant or this perpetual statute or throughout the generations or forever and thou shalt thou shalt thou shalt not and I became very rigid and um and legalistic about it to where I started to um look at the law as the way uh to eternal life instead of Christ and what happened why

I stopped listening to him is that he made the statement he said that you don't keep the law to be safe and when he said that I got offended and I said no because this is

God's law and you gotta do it and so you know so I stopped listening to him and I started looking for a

Jewish synagogue uh in Georgia where I was living at the congregate which that would be about to cease in the laws and very rigid and so uh

I found one called Bethel something I can't remember the other part of the name but it was called Bethel something and uh they had a section on their website and this is leading up to how

I got into the black and Jewish life movement uh they they came they had a section on the website that said become a

Jew because they still practice the the uh proselytizing and uh the physical circumcision so I'm reading through this

I'm reading all these scriptures starting to Abraham and he got the covenant and you know when it's re -established between Israel and Leviticus 12 and I read all these scriptures about the

Jews and how God looked at them stuff like that I'm like man I want to be a Jew so I went to my wife and I was crying

I'm like you know so I'm like you know I was a grown man I was crying because I wanted to be a Jew but I was in this dilemma because where I'm from when you have a child you get them circumcised by that hospital and so I'm like well wait how is this going to work being

I'm already circumcised do I get re -circumcised and I'm like my wife says uh

I don't I didn't see nothing in the Bible that said you gotta do that and in fact

I don't think you can be if somebody wants to re -circumcise you I would run as fast as you can run you know

I'm not thinking about the pain I'm not thinking about all that stuff that will come from this but um but I know

I wanted to be a Jew and so when she told me that you know you know I was kind of dream shot so I let it go and um

I stopped listening I started venting off these other little factions in the middle uh that was about the laws and laws and so what happened is um

I always I always just uh admired men who had this boldness to where if they're proclaiming the scriptures and somebody's like coming after them or trying to hurt them or something they just stand boldly on it so I always admired that and always uh wanted that uh for myself uh that type of boldness um regarding the scriptures and so um

I used to watch debates all the time Jews versus Christians I watched them debating online about different topics and uh one day on on YouTube on the right side uh these guys in purple and gold they said so Israelites so I clicked on it and um the first thing that gravitated me towards them and this is the

IUIC school that for those that may not know they're the guys that wear uh purple and gold at their their main colors uh and so um and so I'm watching them and I'm watching these street teachers they had the in the class teachers and they had street teachers

I I didn't find the uh in the class ones interesting because they're just in a classroom but I found the ones when they're in the street very interesting because you deal with all these people and they want to fight you and stuff and they're standing there you know like army basically and so I'm looking at that I'm looking at the confrontation that drew me in first and then uh it was the

Bronx camp in New York the head the head camp uh video that I came across and they brought out uh

Deuteronomy chapter 28 now all my life I didn't care nothing about who I am my forefathers whatever

I didn't care about any of that stuff um and then uh all I knew was I wanted to be a

Jew if I wanted to be anything I wanted to be a Jew uh in life and uh and so they brought out

Deuteronomy 28 and uh started going through these verses and started saying um you know you black man

Hispanic man you're American man the reason why you're on the bottom blah why you in the ghetto and all these different things because you're

God's chosen people but you you broke his laws that's the commandment and until you repent come back keep these laws uh you're gonna be cursed you're a

Jew you're the real Jew and so when they said that and they brought out uh Deuteronomy 28 48 uh which is one of the main verses uh with the yokes of iron around the neck and they show you the slave collars uh pictures uh and they went to Deuteronomy 28 68 and said that was talking about the transatlantic slave trade um

I remember back to the little bit of history I knew from high school uh in middle school uh because social studies my favorite subject outside of PE and um and so when

I put together the transatlantic slave trade the yoke of iron is the slave trade you know stuff like that and uh and I believed it they had the pictures so once they show you the pictures man and read the script they say hey it look like it all goes together so I started uh following them um and that's how

I got into uh the black people's life uh movement and then from there I started learning a lot of heresy things uh in which they taught.

Now was that the uh group that I mentioned when I introduced you uh yeah the um

I -U -I -C Israel United in Christ okay uh we're going to our final break right now if anybody wants to join us with a question for brother

Jay regarding the black Hebrew Israelites our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com

c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com please give us your first name at least your city and state and your country of residence if you live outside the

USA only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter don't go away

God willing we'll be right back with brother Jay and more of his testimony on how the Lord delivered him from the black

Hebrew Israelite cult. Got to tell you for my money

Chris Arnzen's radio program is just the best iron criticizing iron

I think that's what it's called this is Todd Friel of Wretched Radio and TV with Phil Johnson of Grace to you inviting everybody to come to the

G3 conference which has almost instantly become one of the best conferences in the country. And it is it's a great conference

I love it and Chris Arnzen was there last year he's been there I think every year it's great to see him there you and I actually did some recordings in the lobby at that place so tons of stuff going on tons of great speakers and no matter where you are in the building you will hear

Chris Arnzen's laugh and that's worth the price of admission alone if you would like to join

Phil me Chris and a cavalcade of great preachers so it should be a cavalcade of great preachers and me g3conference .com

g3conference .com Paul wrote to the church at for am

I now seeking the approval of man or of God or am I trying to please man if I were still trying to please man

I would not be a servant of Christ hi I'm Mark Lukens pastor of Providence Baptist Church we are

Reformed Baptist Church and we hold to the London Baptist Confession of Faith of 1689 we are in Norfolk Massachusetts we strive to reflect

Paul's mindset to be much more concerned with how God views what we say and what we do than how men view these things that's not the best recipe for popularity but since that wasn't the apostles priority it must not be ours either we believe by God's grace that we are called to demonstrate love and compassion to our fellow man and to be vessels of Christ's mercy to a lost and hurting community around us and to build up the body of Christ in truth and love if you live near Norfolk Massachusetts or plan to visit our area please come and join us for worship and fellowship you can call us at 508 -528 -5750 that's 508 -528 -5750 or go to our website to email us listen to past sermons worship songs or watch our tv program entitled resting in grace you can find us at Providence Baptist Church ma .org

that's Providence Baptist Church ma .org or even on sermonaudio .com

Providence Baptist Church is delighted to sponsor Iron Sharpens Iron Radio I'm Dr.

Gary Kimbrell pastor of Bethlehem Baptist Church in Laurel Mississippi God tells us in James 127 that pure and undefiled religion is a visit to fatherless and widows and their affliction in the providence of God three years ago

I discovered a poor small church outside Lusaka Zambia in a township called Cabanana who are taking care of 24 orphans

I found them just at the time when they had lost all their funding what was I to do could I just say God bless you and walk away the situation of the children set heavily upon me as I was praying concerning this need it came to me

I trust from the Lord to tell the orphans plight to a broader audience the entire need for their clothing food education and some medical services is $73 per month per child if just 50 of us would give $35 a month we could meet the need

Bethlehem Baptist Church will pay the fee to get the funds there so if you give a dollar a dollar we'll get to the orphans in this season of hope and giving will you consider giving hope to 24 orphans please send your gift of any amount to Bethlehem Baptist Church 838

Reed Road Laurel Mississippi 39443 or donate through our website bbclaurel .com

again the address is Bethlehem Baptist Church 838 Reed Road Laurel Mississippi 39443 or bbclaurel .com

thank you Linbrook Baptist Church on 225 Earl Avenue in Linbrook Long Island is teaching

God's timeless truths in the 21st century our church is far more than a Sunday worship service it's a place of learning where the scriptures are studied and the preaching of the gospel is clear and relevant it's like a gym where one can exercise their faith through community involvement it's like a hospital for wounded souls where one can find compassionate people and healing we're a diverse family of all ages enthusiastically serving our

Lord Jesus Christ in fellowship play and together hi I'm Pastor Bob Walderman and I invite you to come and join us here at Linbrook Baptist Church and see all that a church can be call

Linbrook Baptist at 516 -599 -9402 that's 516 -599 -9402 or visit linbrookbaptist .org

that's linbrookbaptist .org every day at thousands of community centers high schools middle schools juvenile institutions coffee shops and local hangouts

Long Island Youth for Christ staff and volunteers meet with young people who need Jesus we are rural and urban and we are always about the message of Jesus our mission is to have a noticeable spiritual impact on Long Island New York by engaging young people in the lifelong journey of following Christ Long Island Youth for Christ has been a stalwart bedrock ministry since 1959 we have a world -class staff and a proven track record of bringing consistent love and encouragement to youths in need all over the country and around the world help honor our history by becoming a part of our future volunteer donate pray or all of the above for details call

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Steve Lawson founder and president of One Passion Ministries as well as teaching fellow for Ligonier Ministries I serve as professor of preaching and oversee the doctor of ministry program at the

Master's Seminary in Los Angeles I would like to recommend the church where one of my preaching students

Andy Woodard serves as the pastor it's called New Covenant Church NYC they are a reformed

Baptist church that meets in midtown Manhattan you can find their service times and location on their website which is www .ncc

.nyc they believe in a sovereign God who commands all men everywhere to repent and believe the gospel if you're looking for a church that believes in expository preaching which is simply biblical preaching in New York City I'd like to recommend that you visit

New Covenant Church NYC again their information can be found at www .ncc

.nyc have a great day hi I'm Stephan Lindblad assistant professor of systematic theology at IRBS Theological Seminary in Mansfield Texas I accepted this call to teach at the seminary because I'm firmly convinced that the people of God in the churches of our

Lord Jesus Christ need to be firmly grounded in the truth of holy scripture I'm excited to be teaching such subjects as the nature of theology and the doctrine of scripture and even the doctrine of the person and work of Jesus Christ our churches and our people need to be well grounded in these truths indeed future ministers of the gospel need to understand these truths in order to proclaim them to all of God's people if you want to learn more about our program visit us online at irbsseminary .org

Chris Sorensen host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio here I want to tell you about a man I have personally known for many years his name is

Dan Buttafuoco Dan is a personal injury and medical malpractice lawyer but not the type that typically comes to mind

Dan cares about people and is a theologian himself recently he wrote a book titled

Consider the Evidence for the Bible Ravi Zacharias wrote the foreword

Dan also has a master's degree in theology Dan handles serious injury and medical malpractice cases in all 50 states he represents many

Christians in serious injury matters all over the country Dan is an exceptional trial lawyer he wrote the test for the national board of trial advocacy and currently his firm has over 100 cases that have settled for 1 million dollars or more and in approximately 10 different states in Illinois his lawyers had the fourth largest settlement in the state's history in New York his case involving a paralyzed police officer made the front page of the law journal if you have a serious personal injury or medical malpractice claim in any state

I recommend that you call Dan consultations are free there is no fee unless you win

Dan Buttafuoco's number is 1 -800 -669 -4878 1 -800 -669 -4878 or email me for Dan's contact information at chrisarnsen at gmail .com

that's chrisarnsen at gmail .com Charles Haddon Spurgeon once said give yourself unto reading the man who never reads will never be read he who never quotes will never be quoted he will not use the thoughts of other men's brains proves he has no brains of his own you need to read solid ground christian books is a publisher and book distributor who takes these words of the prince of preachers to heart the mission of solid ground christian books is to bring back treasures of the past to minister to christians in the present and future and to publish new titles that address burning issues in the church and the world since it's beginning in 2001 solid ground has been committed to publish god -centered christ exalting books for all ages we invite you to go treasure hunting at solid -ground -books .com

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welcome back this is chris arnzen if you just tuned us in our guest for the second hour with about a half hour to go actually about 20 minutes to go is jaron scheider aka brother j we are discussing his testimony as a former black hebrew israelite who has become by the grace and power and mercy and love of jesus christ a born again believer in christ and if you'd like to join us before we run out of time our email address is chris arnzen at gmail .com

chris arnzen at gmail .com cj and lyndon hirst long island new york asked can you clarify when you were hearing that sound of the shofar blowing whether or not you were awake or asleep yeah i was awake man um i was looking around um granted you guys don't i was in the apartment but i had a window right there um where i was and uh so i was looking at that um i mean it could have been coming from outside or do you think this was a supernatural demonic experience the well the first time when it first originally began up until the point where it revved up and i couldn't move i thought it was maybe a train or something like that um but once i started not being able to move the height the more it revved up and then once it went away and i got up and looked at my wife and son and they were still asleep at that point i knew it was something else in some train sound or or something like that because as loud as it was and i couldn't move no one else heard it yeah well that you know that shows uh you that of folks that are always looking for a sign and a wonder and something supernatural shows you how dangerous that could be because that is what led you into this cult ultimately yeah yeah uh thank you uh cj um well tell us now about how you uh came back to the christian faith and specifically to reform theology all right so um i ended up uh after you know some years in the uh in the movement uh but that was four years right yeah about four years and uh while in there um obviously salvation is based off our ability to keep the laws uh given to moses and so uh and of course with the feast days etc you got to count to them which is uh you know you have the new moon and all that type of stuff that goes into play and so while i was there um the camp out part was real boisterous and arrogant and all it always say you know they're two prophets of god come back and you would never hear them say anything outside the bible and so they were teaching one way to count uh these feast days um and uh after a couple years in there uh the head bishop uh nathaniel came came out with the uh quotation mark revelation um and changed the uh the way in which we counted and so for me um that was such a big deal because if i'm trying to keep the law to be saved and we got these feast days that appointments and you done told me before this is what god says and all of that um and now you change it up well either you was lying before or you lying now uh you can't be telling truth both times they're opposite so um i ended up leaving them simply over that but i still believe the doctrine um and i was actually looking for another school uh to um join in texas after i left them but every time i got ready to reach out to somebody um like something was just not let me send a message so i always erased it and i just kept um you know reading the scriptures and uh trying to find the right new moon phase so i can uh keep these laws uh that we would always say while we're in there and so um it got to a point where um i felt entangled i felt trapped i felt um like i was going to kill me i felt uh i remember one day walking to the room and tell my wife that i feel like there's a literal yoke around my neck you know pun intended for what i had been learning um and i literally feel like this yoke around my neck and so um i just kept reading them and fasting um that's all i really could do at that point and then it finally got to a point where i got so low um uh you know i remember praying to the lord and i said uh lord i know the truth is in this bible i know christ taught it but i don't know it and then once i submitted that the thought came to mind was if you if you believe the truth is in the scriptures and that um and that uh and that christ taught it start with him uh for those that don't know uh when you go into the cult there's a certain way that you interpret the bible and certainly read it and uh there are misquote ideas 28 9 to 10 with the precept upon precept so you never when you're reading the new testament letters you don't read them as letters you don't start from the beginning and through the end you read two liners one liners and run somewhere else and try to piece together this puzzle because uh they said that the bible was a puzzle and only the uh the true prophet of god could uh put it together and so um so i start to actually read through the new testament letters as letters ought to be read from the beginning to the end and um and i remember getting to this one section in paul's writing um and where he said take not this liberty as an occasion to the flesh and when i read that i was like what liberty he's talking about because you know being up under this this uh law system there is no liberty it it you know you should do this you do that eat this way be this time you know appointment fee do it this way there's no liberty there's no freedom in that and so um so i was like what is he talking about so i kept reading it and as time go along the lord started taking the veil away from my eyes as i started seeing these feast days and how they pointed to christ what it meant and how you know we're not under uh the uh the uh previous covenant where these are mandates and if you don't keep them you're going to be cut off all this type of stuff i started to see what they really pointed to which was christ and so um so finally the lord started opening my eyes and through the gospel the promise of abraham because the camp i was in only the 12 tribes can be saved when it came to gentiles it was israelites that was in a gentile state of mind so everybody else white people asian people africans they couldn't be saved it was only for blacks and spanish americans so i started to see the scriptures as to who the law and the prophets was really talking about when they said the gentiles and the very last thing uh was the duron 28 the thought came yes you know the script that says that christ there was no god found in his mouth and there's no there's no deceit in the truth so the thought came was all right well if you're going to walk in truth and emulate christ and there's no god found in his mouth go back and examine duron 28 and make sure that what you had learned there was true if it is false let it go so at that point i didn't care i didn't care if i was the israelite or not because now i found my freedom in christ so i just wanted to go back and make sure that i wasn't deceiving folks by telling the israelites because of curses and all that kind of stuff so went back went through all the verses went read through reading through the old testament seeing these things come about um seeing that you know uh you know yokes of iron more than just uh also um all the nations when you read uh jeremiah 27 and 28 uh seeing that duron 28 16 ain't talking about the translating slave trade but it was actually talking about lyrical slavery back into egypt um and finding that history where that actually took place and and finally it it showed improved itself through scripture through history that so uh what they have been teaching us from duron 28 was false and and that's when the lord took all um out of me and so i started doing interviews and stuff talking about the uh experiences i had while in there and um and to bring it full circle uh because we know everything's in the sovereign lord's hand and that uh and everything works together for the good of those that are called towards his purpose that that whole journey uh that i went through going into you know following the messianic uh jewish people i became legalistic and became offended uh when they said that you keep the law to be saved and i started and then i found myself through the legalism uh found myself into a cult uh and into bondage uh for the lord to have mercy on me and to shed his light of the gospel on me so now i do this ministry where all i do is help people uh who are stuck in there uh to show them the the heresy that they're in as well as those that come out that's going through what i've been through where they don't know which way is right and so uh and to be able to show them the gospel uh so i see the reason why it all went that way uh and why i went through all of that to be able to help people uh today so wow that's that's pretty much the uh the journey into um the gospel um and the reformed faith the doctrine of god's sovereignty um and the doctrine of grace that salvation is not by the works of the law uh but by the hearing of faith uh in christ and so uh yeah man well we have uh arnie in perry county who wants to know is there any specific figures from the reformed faith that you either read or heard preach on sermon audio or the radio that were used of god to lead you into the reformed faith uh honestly uh one day after just reading the scriptures um i didn't know anything about it john calvin or anybody of the reformed i didn't know about the reformed faith period i was just reading romans nine one day and as i'm reading through it i start to see how you know about god's elect you know chosen by god uh god's desire to show his wrath and judgment when i saw that my it was almost like my little light inside of my body and all i got was i just got scared i couldn't sleep and i just got scared i'm like man you know like the god started really uh showed himself that night and um and then the next day uh while talking to a brother i do online ministry with the black in his life uh he kept hearing me kept talking about god's sovereignty and god's elect and stuff like that he said hey man let me you ever heard of uh tulip and i said uh what's that so he said let me read it to you so he said i'm gonna read it to you and tell me if you agree all right cool so he read through tulip what they what the acronym stood for and i agreed to and so he was like uh and then that's when he started telling me about uh john calvin the reformation period um and that's actually how i found out about the reformation um and just reformed church period what through god showing showing me in romans nine his sovereignty uh and his election and um and then that brought me to this journey so now now knowing about the reformed faith i listen to you know james wyatt listen to uh i'm reading right now bondage of the will by uh martin luther um i'm uh been listening to uh body bachman a little uh i've come to know these guys through uh through through that through the other brothers that i do ministry with online amen by the way you might find this interesting is years ago an orthodox jewish journalist bought airtime from me when i was working for wmca radio in new york city and uh he purchased a two hour block of time so that he could debate a fundamentalist baptist this fundamentalist baptist he debated happened to be an anti -calvinist and i was listening to the debate at home on the radio and it was quite hilarious actually because the orthodox jew not knowing anything about reformation history about john calvin about the those buzzwords like calvinism and so on he assumed because he said he identified himself as a student of the new testament even though he was not a christian he had read the new testament dozens of times and he assumed that all christians believed in the doctrines of sovereign grace he didn't call them that but he just assumed that unconditional election and other things that were are uh unique to the reformed faith he assumed all christians believe those things so it was it was it was uh kind of a similar situation to you oh with the uh the difference the big difference is this this man did not uh believe in the christian faith he just thought that that's what christians uh believe believed across the board um we have let's see here we have rj in white plains new york who says chris earlier you said that people who are caught up in the social justice movement are opening up their doors to people like lewis farrakhan and the nation of islam could you clarify what you mean by that oh that that's that's actually a very good question because i first of all even though i have very strong disagreements with my reformed brethren who claim to be also simultaneously involved in the social justice warrior movement i was not referring to the prominent figures uh who are other than those social justice issues very conservative in their theology i was speaking about your mainline uh churches that are predominantly black that are involved in a social gospel and where social justice preoccupies what they preach on but actually leads me to a a good question to you do you think that there is even a danger uh amongst our conservative brothers who are involved in the social justice movement to to drift into a racial hatred against whites and others and be more prone to adopt something like you had experienced yes um and i've experienced even in the circle of uh the brothers that i do online ministry with um some of the guys that we were um doing things with um got caught up into the whole the social justice thing and it became like a uh you know they started to be super pro black church and wanting to um i thought i'd come in when it was when it first started i saw it and and i distanced myself uh from it because i saw will for coming and and it reminded me too much of black people's like movement um because that's what the movement thrives off of that type of uh stuff um every week you know we're indoctrinated with more and more history of slavery or uh they'll propaganda that's on on on tv or unarmed black guy gets shot or something like that and things that make us angry um and hate white people um and so and we had a revenge doctrine that when christ came back he's gonna kill all the white people and whoever he didn't kill uh they were going to slavery and so um and the stuff that people bringing up uh i've already told brothers that all it is is trying to bolster and give people uh pride of the flesh um it has nothing to do with christ um it's not rooted in christ at all um and i always tell brothers to stay away from it um because uh social that social justice movement and the black community black movement ain't too far away from each other and um it's parents and things that they push and what they desire um and so i always stay clear of it but i see the danger in it we have discussions on it online and stuff too uh we have let's see uh susan margaret in delphin county pennsylvania wants to know how quickly did your racial hatred or at least bigoted views against whites disappear after you became a christian was it immediate thing or was it a gradual thing uh it was very immediate because even while i was in the movement i didn't really hate white people um it was more of the doctrine and you don't want to um you don't want the brothers while you're in there to think you're not serious about this truth so uh i never really hated white people i just when i was in the movement i was just like let me stay clear from them uh you know uh and it led to a lot of confusion points where we want to help somebody like say was on it on the side of street access for some money or something and they were white uh you'll want to help them but because of their doctrine uh we didn't help and so it always bothered me and my wife um and so once once i came out of the movement got away from under that constant feeding of hatred um and just kept reading the scriptures and and hearing about the gentile once once the lord opened my eyes concerning who the gentiles there was in reference to the gospel uh was and that was the actual nation my hate not the hatred i did have out there or whatever that went away it was quick um because i never really hated uh the other races it was more of the doctrine thing i had to do it because of the doctrine right but did you uh buy into i mean you you can be bigoted without hating somebody you could uh think someone's inferior as yeah the black hebrew israelites apparently teach that white people are inferior in some way right uh so did you buy into that or is that uh yeah when i was in there i wholeheartedly believed it uh that we were superior to everybody on the earth uh especially white people um and um i definitely wholeheartedly believed it while i was there and so um so i definitely was bigoted um in that sense for sure um but once i once the lord once once the lord opened my eyes to who the gentiles were um regard to the to the gospel um then that went away we have bobby in hartsdale new york who says i know that the nation of islam teaches that white people are demons uh did the black or should i say do the black hebrew israelites share that view uh yeah um now you want to go case by case because not every group in the black hebrews like uh movement holds to that per se you have some that's more closely sounding like christians but they still hold to that black hebrew israeli uh identity stuff but uh but for the most part especially when you're dealing with like i .u

.i .c. i .s .u .p .k. these are one west you'll hear us use that term um schools uh and then some of those that are more rogue and kind of do their own thing uh they believe that the white man is the devil so when you read the revelation when it says you know that old dragon in the garden uh the devil uh that red dragon uh they they say that's the white man they believe that a lot of them believe that the white man is the reincarnation of kane uh wow and yeah a reverse of the white races who believe that the mark of kane is the black race they believe that uh that that the uh reincarnation of kane is the white man and wow typically ethos uh because you know the king jones verse said the first came out red and so right right right you used to have a slogan you know what what do you call the white people down and you'd like redneck and they'd be like yeah well we're out of time brother how can our listeners get a hold of you um uh my email is uh the real brother that's b -r -o -t -h -a letter j at yahoo .com

the real brother j all one word um and that's the letter j um at yahoo .com