December 5, 2018 Show with Vocab Malone on “The Infiltration of the Black Hebrew Israelites into the Black Church” PLUS Gerren Shider on “The Testimony of a Former Black Hebrew Israelite”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors, Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another. Matthew Henry said that in this passage, quote, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions. Now here's our host, Chris Arnson.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com. This is Chris Arnson, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Wednesday on this fifth day of December 2018.

Yesterday, many of you who heard Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, in fact, all of you who heard Iron Sharpens Iron Radio know that our guest yesterday was Vocab Malone, and we are delighted to have Vocab back on the program for the second day in a row.

Yesterday, we basically received an introduction to what the cult, the Black Hebrew Israelites, is all about, and today we are going to be specifically addressing in the first hour the infiltration of the Black Hebrew Israelites into the Black Church.

Vocab Malone on the Black Hebrew Israelites and the Black Church

Vocab Malone is contributing author to our God is Triune, Essays in Biblical Theology, and he's the author of Barack Obama Versus the Black Hebrew Israelites, an Introduction to the History and Beliefs of One West Hebrew Israelism, and the second hour of the program, a friend of Vocab's, Jaron Scheider, who is more commonly known as Brother J, or should I say Brother J?

Brother J, he is a former member of the Black Hebrew Israelites, and he's going to be giving his personal testimony on how our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ drew him out of that cult and rescued him and saved him, but first of all, it is my honor and privilege to welcome you back for the second day in a row to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Vocab Malone.

Thank you, my man Chris. I told Brother J, I said, hey, you're going to have fun. Chris interviews you, because when you tell a joke, he's going to laugh. I'm trying to be as funny as possible.

He better hope the only time I'm laughing is when he's telling me a joke. Sometimes it's very eerie. Sometimes, Vocab, when I am laughing my brains out on this end, and I notice that there is an odd, uncomfortable, and strange silence on the other end.

That does happen sometimes.

I'll try not to do you like that.

Well, let our listeners know in summary what the Black Hebrew Israelites are. Again, there are probably a lot of people who missed yesterday's program, and let our listeners know, actually before that, a summary of who you are and how you got to become involved as a apologist interacting with Black Hebrew Israelites.

Well, yeah, my name is Vocab. I live in Phoenix, and I've been running into them ever since then online and actually in the streets. Sometimes we go out when we know where they're at and speak to them on the corners as well.

The reason why I'm involved was because I saw a need that I felt wasn't being fulfilled, and I was involved heavily with Islam as far as doing apologetics to Mosul. Even though that was a pressing need, I saw there was other people doing that, and I said, well, maybe I can switch my number one focus, keep Islam as number two, because I see a great need, and I just didn't see it really being filled with apologetic material, and yet there was a lot of apologetic questions being raised, and that just came out of Hebrewism and things like that.

But I'm still like, hey, guys, if someone wants to come along and take my place, I'll go back to doing some stuff on Islam. Just let me know. But for now, I'm just saying that not everyone involved is willing to put themselves out there probably as much as I have.

I think that's probably fair to say, because these guys can be unpleasant sometimes. But nonetheless, God is good, and I'm glad to discuss it because I think it's a good warning, and we can be proactive once we hear.

The problems presented, I hope. Well, praise God. And I do want to let our listeners know that my friend David Wood, many of Iron Sherpa's Iron Radio listeners are very familiar with that name, David Wood, because especially when I was broadcasting it of New York on WNYG and WGBB Radio on Long Island, David Wood was actually the most frequently interviewed guest on this program.

He is an apologist with the Acts 17 Apologetics Network. I'm doing this off the top of my head. That's the name of his ministry, right? Acts 17 Apologetics Network? You got it. Acts 17 Apologetics. Yes.

And he told me that Vocab's book, Barack Obama versus the Black Hebrew Israelites, an Introduction to the History and Beliefs of the One West Hebrew Israelism, is the best book in print on the Black Hebrew Israelites, and he would not throw that kind of a compliment around loosely.

In fact, he is the one that urged me to interview Vocab yesterday, and I'm glad we have him back. Well, what you told me, I can't remember right now if you told it to me on the air or after we were off the air, but you told me that there is a serious problem in the inner city, especially amongst church, amongst congregations that are dominated by Black members.

There is a serious problem with an infiltration of the Black Hebrew Israelites into some of these congregations, and if you could pick it up from there.

Well, yeah, it's so much that it's really where to begin, but even if we went all the way back to the first time we see the Hebrew Israelites sort of appear on the landscape, they've always sort of been a leech on the church.

What I mean is, that's where they get their members from, sort of the lifeblood city. Much like in some ways the Jehovah's Witnesses, very frequently the stats I've seen are that most Jehovah's Witnesses that go that way have been prior involved in some way in some kind of Christianity at some level.

They're poorly churched people, and the Jehovah's Witnesses come along and swoop them up, see a very similar phenomenon. You don't hear a lot of atheists going into Hebrew Israelism, for example, but you do hear people who say, I went to church, I tried that.

So going all the way back, I mentioned yesterday, William S. Crowdy, 1896, he had a visionary experience where a voice told him that the blacks of America were actually the Israelites of old. He began a church called the Church of the Living God, and that church is still around in some form or another.

There's actually a couple different varieties of it, and you can look it up and the sects still view William S. Crowdy as some kind of prophet because of this truth he brought forward. Another example is F .S. Cherry in 1915 out in Philadelphia, and a lot of these guys came out of a Christian background and then they swooped Christians into their movement.

Another one in 1900, Warren Robertson, 1900 in Virginia, the name of that group was the Temple of the Gospel of the Kingdom. And so my point is that this has always been the case. You could call Hebraism, maybe you could say it's Dracula, it's a vampire upon the neck of mainly the black church, but as the movement's growing, it's also getting more and more Hispanics and Latinos involved as well into some of the groups.

So now the problem is just becoming exacerbated because Christianity's sway is falling away, not only in the broader culture, but even in the black community. And so, sort of easy pickings, more and more, the Hebrews have been trying for years to move into the Bible Belt with very little success.

It's mainly been a northeastern phenomenon. However, really even the past five years, Chris, that has changed. Now you're seeing these camps pop up all over the Bible Belt, from Tallahassee to Oklahoma and everywhere in between, without exception.

That's one of their largest growth sectors now, is in the south. And so this is a problem. And not only that, you actually see examples of some actual churches. They flip the church into a Hebrews -like congregation.

Now granted, these are syncretist-style churches. They're not identical to the guys out on the street with the sandwich boards and the ticket signs and the laminated posters. They're not as bad. However, they still all have those doctrinal problems I mentioned yesterday, which is denial of the Trinity, a denial of Christ's divinity, a denial of the Holy Spirit, all five of those errors, they still have.

I could give example after example, but that's kind of the introduction to the problem, Chris.

Yes, and by the way, I don't know if you're aware of this, but I have a friend who is a thoroughly knowledgeable expert on the Unification Church, the Moonies, as they have been called, who has told me that, unlike what many people wrongly think, the Moonies are actually a larger cult than ever before.

And people don't realize it because they have many, many, many, many names that they use other than the Unification Church. And they have infiltrated predominantly Black and Hispanic churches in the inner city as well, because they also offer these churches a lot of financial support.

And he has told me that many of the ministers in the inner city have been duped into Moon's heretical doctrine.

Ah, yeah, that's bad. Now, the difference, of course, is there is no governing body, there is no central leader or authority. Now, each individual camp or church does have, usually, a very hierarchical authoritarian structure, but there's no one, there's no, you know, kind of a pope of the Hebrew Israelites in any means concerning to me, because it's such an organic thing.

So let me give some examples. You could go online right now and look up a website called Straight Way Truth, S-T-R-A-I-T Way Truth. And there you'll see on the front page a large group of people, and you'll notice immediately there's a lot of kids present.

You'll also notice that it's not all people of color. Clearly, it's almost half, you know, now how is that in a congregation that embraces Hebrew? It happened there in Tennessee with the leader whose name is Pastor Dow, as he calls himself, who, by the way, teaches polygamy.

And so, you know, you kind of get an idea of what you're getting real fast there. But they're in Lafayette, Tennessee, and they have a couple branches throughout the United States, very prominent on the internet.

Um, the reason is because not all the Hebrewsites teach that non-Israelites as they see them, non-Israelites will be doomed to serve it. Some of them teach that you can be grafted into all of that. Now, prior to flipping into Hebrew-Israelism, he was a charismatic...

The strange thing is, even though Hebrew-Israelism is all over his videos, he still embraces very Pentecostal things, such as exorcism, and even talks about speaking in tongues and things like that. And it tricks people who don't really know what's going on.

One time, he mentioned me when he was speaking, and he said, oh, vocab, like, just quote the church fathers. Now, that's not true. That's not how we argue. But we do go into church history sometimes to show, for example, that Hebrew-Israelism has no pedigree.

And he said, I'll tell you who our church fathers are. Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. That's our fathers. And so that's kind of the mentality that you have with Pastor Dow. Often when he's doing his video, you see him in the background with an AR -15, and he'll be, you know, talking some stuff about the law that keeps the feast days, supposedly, or some kind of quasi-charismatic thing.

And you can all see this right there on the website, and you might even understand why some people could get trapped into this. But that's an example. I don't know the date. He takes on a different form.

Oh yeah, you can continue to give us more.

All right, because I like to give little pauses and breaks so people can ask questions or whatever they need to do. All right, another...

I might as well, since you said that, I might as well give out our email address. If you would like to join me on the air with a question for Vocab Malone on the Black Hebrew Israelites, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

C-H-R-I-S-A-R-N-Z-E-N at gmail .com. Please give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the USA. Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal or private matter.

Okay, pick up where you left off there.

Awesome. Another great example is the Philadelphia Christian Church. They're also in a city called Lafayette, but they're in Louisiana, not Tennessee. And their group there is Pastor Dow's. And according to pastors that I've...

In fact, they're doing conferences called School of the Hebrews. They do all this School of the Hebrews stuff there. Now, let me show you something to show you how pernicious and sneaky, basically, a Hebrew Israelite church, because there is such a thing now, unfortunately, can be by reading simply here the About section under Pastor Omar Thabou.

That's the man who is the leader of this congregation. I'm gonna pick up right here, because I think this might be of interest to your listeners. He began preparing for his calling by attending New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary.

In 2006, he accepted his calling to the ministry. Since 2007, Pastor Omar Thabou is shepherd of the flock of Philadelphia Christian Church. Now, if you read the bio, there's nothing in there about Hebrew Israelism in any way.

There's none of the telltale signs immediately. And it's especially interesting that he went to a Southern Baptist Seminary, the New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary. That's a Southern Baptist school.

Now, bless their hearts, it's a bastion of Arminianism, but nonetheless, that's where he attended. And yet, they do all this School of the Hebrews stuff that is Hebrew Israelism in every way. Now, it's very difficult to make out what a lot of these folks believe.

What exactly is their Christology fully determined yet? What is their other views? Still working that out, but it's a Hebrew Israelite group, and the past is on the ground there. Let me just real quick show you the last couple videos on the School of the Hebrews YouTube site, which has 28 ,000 subscribers.

Hebrew cosmology, NASA is fake, never went to the moon. Hebrew cosmology, the globe is false science. Hebrew cosmology, the earth is not a globe. Now, you may be saying, what does that have to do? A quarter of Hebrew Israelites are flat earthers, and so that's a dead giveaway, the flat earth stuff right there.

But let me give you one more title just to show you. And if you went on this website, everyone, you'd be like, oh, he looks like a pastor. That looks like a podium. It has a cross on it. They've got flowers on the background.

This looks very normal. But then you see this title that says 400 years. Time is almost up. Four and 40 minute video. What's that all about? Well, let me tell you. How long were they in bondage the first time?

Approximately 400 years. How long has there been black slavery in America? Approximately 400 years, because in Jamestown in 1619, they brought some blood. What's the year next year? 2019. That's 400 years.

Remember yesterday we learned about Deuteronomy 2868, how they view America as the new Egypt. New Egypt, there's going to be a new exit 400 year mark. Time is up. So you go on the website. But the thing is, I know this.

A lot of Christians who might be impressed with his speaking and his unique approach to scripture that seems very Hebrew influenced, and they just like the name, school of the Hebrews. They might be impressed by this, but then they get sucked into Hebrew Israel is the next thing you know.

Very, very dangerous because that's so terriological implications because none of these groups anyway. And Omar Tabu is another example. And all these ministries I'm telling you about, Chris, all of them appear to be growing.

I didn't kind of keep a tab on them. I'm not saying I have numbers in my back pocket or something like that. But I could tell you by all the telltale signs, they are clearly growing. A guy named Ron. So that's really what he calls himself.

He's actually dialogued briefly with Dr. James White and even attended one of his lectures. So they've met who is divine prospect. What's his deal? Well, he's in Atlanta, Georgia. He has some kind of champion for the Hebrews lights because he's by far the most gifted of them in the academic area.

They generally not very strong in that area shields, including me. So him and I have debated and dialogued because I'm seeing, I'm seeing some of them as a threat to Hebrew-Israelism. Well, what's been happening lately with him?

He has been transitioning. He's trying to take his Hebrew-Israelism that he's been, he's by far the most notable apologist. He's trying to take it into the churches. November 2nd through 4th, there was a men's conference night hosted at King Emmanuel.

All the men pictured here are all pastors. In fact, one of them's speakers was actually a Presbyterian. And you can go and see this online as well. Guess who's speaking at the conference? Ron Shields speaking.

This is a Hebrew-Israelite. This is somebody who, when I debated him, said that he was agnostic. This is somebody who believes that there's a, this is someone who's a henotheism. I don't, I'm not going to get all the details, but basically he believes in multiple gods.

This is somebody who, uh, you can't even fully fault the Canaanites for the child sacrifice they did because that was their cultural way to worship and Yahweh hadn't appeared to them. And so we can't condemn it as all out immoral.

And these are things that all came out in debates I did with him. The list goes on and on. Him and I tangled on that in Matthew 28, 18 to 20, and he claimed it was a textual variant. And James White actually had me on the dividing line to, and I say this humbly, but I say this also talking a claim.

So these, this guy is speaking at a men's conference at a missionary Baptist church. Well, others I'm going to give, but I need to take a drink of water and hear what you have to say,.

Brother Chris. Well, I'm wondering in your opinion of, from what you've observed and because of your interaction with these folks, what is the draw for a church to become so fascinated and intrigued and impressed by different, uh, versions of the black Hebrew Israelite movement that they would open up their doors and, uh, put out the welcome mat, uh, and invite these people into their pulpits and actually, uh, allow themselves to be, uh, transformed from, uh, from one degree to another, uh, to embrace their teachings is it's like, for instance, there are, uh, and there have been for, for quite a while, unfortunately, churches in the black community in the inner city, especially that, uh, have been seduced by the nation of Islam.

You know, you will have Baptist churches on occasion, giving their pulpit to Farrakhan, uh, and there seems to be, uh, a camaraderie, uh, about, uh, the social justice movement, if you will, or, uh, black pride, uh, in opposition to, uh, white oppression against the, the black community, that, those kinds of things, uh, are so, uh, so much a part of the social gospel of the black church at large that they will become allies with people that deny historic Christianity, and I'm sure that there are other reasons, but, uh, is that what you see going on here with the black Hebrew Israelites,.

Is it something different? Well, when it comes to divine prospect, I don't think any of these other speakers have any idea who he is or what he's doing. I don't know who he knew at the conference to get on, but I get the impression that they don't really know.

They just think he's a young man who's intellectually gifted and speaks well, or something like that. I don't think that they actually understand. Now, what it does is it makes him appear more credible, uh, in the eyes of some of which he has a substantial amount.

He also teaches polygamy, he's a polygamist as well. Uh, the, these groups, they, uh, they, they have different ways to infiltrate. Now, in regards to your question about people who are more knowingly doing this, you know, this is tough because, to be honest, I see sometimes some of the same kind of hypocrisy, uh, within, for example, I think, uh, you know, some of the coziness that churches have gotten with Donald Trump and some of the people that have been speaking it at engagements such as, at places like Liberty University, or what you see down there with the, uh, I forgot his name off the top of my head, but the pastor in Texas who, who has these, uh, basically Fourth of July celebrations inside his congregation there, and, um, you see, you see this kind of compromise because there's a lust for worldly power and stuff, and back in the day when Glenn Beck was more popular, he threw this rally at the White House lawn, and he's praying Mormon, praying Mormon prayers, basically, and, uh, the evangelicals are there, you know, going back, amen, and all this.

It's just, who, what is going on? Well, so there's a susceptibility to this kind of compromise, no doubt, no question. Here's what it is, it's almost like, just like, I'm not saying this is excusable, some people say, well, you know, Donald Trump did this, but he also did this.

They're kind of weighing his negatives and positives in their mind. Folks, in regards to some of the people you mentioned do the same thing, and I'll tell you what I mean. Farrakhan's certainly got problems, he's a heretic, he's a false teacher, but in the nation of Islam's heyday, when they would decide to clean up a block, Chris, they had the power and clout from the block in the neighborhoods.

They would literally do those kinds of things, but people remember things like that, and they see Farrakhan speaking about fatherhood, and being a man, and being a leader, and starting your own business.

You know, people on the outside are just like Chris there, with that, it's not people sort of anything. I'm not an apologist for the NLI, nation of Islam, but I am trying to give people an empathetic heart that helps them to kind of have a window, compromise could happen.

Now, when it comes to the Hebrew Israelites, it's somewhat similar, because Christian church, and they practice Christianity, it feels very detached from the context of the Bible, and all of a sudden, the Hebrew Israelites connecting things where they never saw these connections before, and it feels like, oh, it's like a much more robust Hebrew, all the Hebrew roots movement, especially those who have a tendency you might call messianic Jewish, and Hebrew roots has really created a problem, because they use that as some kind of stuff, much like Judaizers of old, and the people that the author of Hebrews is warning against.

You see pastors taking three offerings of service, driving around in fancy cars, talking with all these catchphrases, and all this kind of stuff, and I'm not saying you see this everywhere, because this is what some people's perception is, and some people look at it with everybody or everything, I'm just telling you sort of the view that I get from a lot of Hebrew Israelites who use identifying as Christians in some way, and Hebrew Israelites don't come along, and it looks much more modest, it looks much more humble, it looks much more democratized.

The men are going to be part of the leadership all of a sudden, not just one guy up there. Asculine! It looks like a very attractive alternative, and not only that, instead of talking about making the pastor's pockets fat, basically, with his new jet or his spaceship to preach the gospel on Mars like Creflo Dollar said he wanted to do if we ever discovered life on Mars, what do you have?

You have somebody who's talking about economic empowerment in the community. Somebody who's giving very practical instruction about child.

Rearing in the community. By the way, I want to start a movement to send Creflo Dollar to Mars.

I hope you'll join me on that. Right, yeah. I don't know if the cost is worth it, but maybe something like that. But yeah, it will just... These guys, they're happening. Sometimes they think it's just a number, well, that is the gathering of Christ Church.

I mentioned them.

The Gathering of Christ Church and Other Infiltrating Groups

Briefly yesterday. In fact, if you could pick up on the gathering of Christ Church when we were returning from our break. Yes, sir. And if anybody wants to join us, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

If you have a question, chrisarnson at gmail .com. Don't go.

Away. We'll be right back after these messages. James White here, co-founder of Alpha Omega Ministries and occasional guest on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. I'm so delighted. My friend Chris Arnson will be heading down to Atlanta for the next G3 conference from January 17th to the 19th, 2019, where I'll be joining a very impressive lineup of speakers on the theme, A Biblical Understanding of Missions.

Speakers include John Piper, Steve Lawson, Vody Baucom, Mark Dever, Conrad Mbewe, Phil Johnson, Josh Bice, yours truly, and many more. I hope you all join Chris and me for this phenomenal event. For more details, go to g3conference .com.

That's g3conference .com. Chris Arnson, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio,.

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Ptlbiblerebinding .com. Welcome back. This is Chris Arnzen, if you just tuned us in. Our guest today for the first hour is Vocab Malone. We are talking about the infiltration of the Black Hebrew Israelites into the Black Church.

And in the second hour, we're going to be joined by Jaron Scheider, aka Brother J, who is a former member of the Black Hebrew Israelite cult and is now, thanks be to our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, a born-again believer in Christ.

And we're going to hear his testimony in the second hour. If you'd like to join us with a question right now for Vocab Malone, our email address is ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. ChrisArnzen at gmail .com.

And if you could pick up where you left off, the Gathered Church of Christ, or the, I can't remember the.

Name of the cult that you were talking about. The Gathering of Christ Church. There you go. They do descend out of that work that I mentioned yesterday. However, they've modified enough of their positions now that if you went to their website, as I have done, or attended one of their services, you might almost think you're just going to a Christian church that meets on Saturday.

Now, James White actually debated their head leader, a man named Elder Rakah, twice. I set up the debates. The debates are very good knowledge. The first largest is IUIC, and the second largest is Gathering of Christ Church, as far as the One West groups go.

Now, GOCC, I've known of people who mentioned they went there and they thought it was just a different style church, but they thought it was a church and, you know, hardcore slavery doctrine that white people and Japanese and Chinese and Arabs and Indians will go into slavery for.

Throwing away that into a doctrine that says, you just have to recognize us as the teachers, but you can still fellowship with us as white people, for example, eating at their Passover feast, something that the other more hard-line groups criticize them for.

But it's made them look a little different. Just think about the name, Chris, Gathering of Christ Church. That almost sounds like you could call a Calvinist church that, doesn't it? Right? The elect, yes.

Yeah, seriously. And now they have a different understanding of that, but that's another example. It's very sneaky. And here's what's going on. The more this thing grows, and we were quite concerned with videos he had found out there in Philadelphia.

But anyways, I was shocked at the amount of fooling. These are middle-class, so people, I think, are unaware of what's happening. And people are unaware until they run into Hebrew-Israelism, like a friend or a family member, or college years ago.

Then they start to realize how big of a problem it is and how ill-prepared they are to deal with it. Lay the groundwork so people aren't shrinking. Problem. No doubt about that. And let me tell you a very sad story now.

Congregation that is a Reformed Calvinist all the way. The head elders, they had graduate degrees and above from Reformed seminaries. Were black, so it was a black Reformed leadership structure, but the congregation itself was about sort of half and half.

It's a very diverse, wonderful, beautiful congregation down there, right? Well, slowly but surely, the main, kind of the lead elder, he started kind of taking in some Hebrew-Israelism doctrine. And the other elder did not really realize how serious it was.

He just thought the elder had some interesting questions, you know. Next thing the other pastor knew, the other elder, and according to the congregation, because I interviewed them, my roots, he had done a lot of groundwork convincing the congregation to the point where about half the church left with him.

That is utterly amazing. You're talking about a trained man, theologically trained in the Reformed faith. So this is obviously one of those glaring examples of the supernatural powers of darkness, because obviously no sane and educated person would adopt these evil and insane ideas.

This church, well I'm with them after this, one of the most Calvinistic churches you could ever go to. I mean, they're very deep into the Reformed faith in every way you can imagine. And it's a real tragedy, because what happened is, it went from a mixed congregation church, basically Black and white church, to a church with one Black family that was the only Black family left.

They all left. All the folks left with them. So some pretty tough stuff. And so that's kind of a shocking thing. But the thing is, that happens. And unfortunately, I haven't even given all the examples.

I have another example, I could share about a Christian rapper who's actually not really a Christian rapper, who's infiltrating Christian rap circles in Buffalo, New York. I have another example I could give about the pastor in Texas who turned his keys over to one of these camps, and the camp he turned his keys, when I say keys, I mean the keys to the actual physical building of the church.

This camp that he turned his keys over to, the ISUPK, is one of the most hateful groups out of the whole Hebrewism spectrum. I mean, they are vicious in their racism. There's no nuance with them at all.

And so this is a problem, and I know it's not on everyone's radar, Chris, but what I'm trying to do is spread the word so there's a proactive awareness, and what the church can do is be proactive in some of the issues, because there are real felt needs that are going on here.

And the church can say, let's recognize some of these legitimate concerns and deal with them with a gospel solution. If we don't, there's a real danger that some cult will come along with what seems to be an answer.

Because remember what Dr. Walter Martin said so many years ago, the cults are the unpaid bills, and I do think there's a lot of truth to that when it comes to.