November 30, 2021 Show with Jon Harris on “Christianity & Social Justice: Religions in Conflict”

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December 1, 2021

November 30, 2021 JON HARRIS (MDiv from Southeastern Seminary & an MA in History from Liberty University), author of “CHRISTIANITY & SOCIAL JUSTICE: RELIGIONS IN CONFLICT”

00:04: Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown
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01:00: Chris Arnzen Good afternoon,
01:10: Cumberland County, Pennsylvania Lake City, Florida and the rest of humanity living on the planet earth who are listening via Live streaming at iron sharpens iron radio .com
01:20: This is Chris Arnzen your host of iron sharpens iron radio wishing you all a happy Tuesday on this 30th day of November 2021 and we are back to live programming again after some absence during a transition period as we
01:38: Were searching for and yes, praise God finally found a new facility
01:44: Which will be the new home of iron sharpens iron radio starting January 1st 2022
01:50: I am thrilled about it. I am so grateful to God For his providence and finding this place, which is perfect for our needs.
02:01: It is beautiful It is breathtaking as many of you Who are on Facebook will testify from the photograph?
02:09: I posted on Facebook of this new facility in 19th century beautiful building right here in Carlisle, Pennsylvania Italian eight
02:18: Victorian they call it as far as the architect the architecture is concerned And I just can't wait to move in but today we have on the program a returning guest
02:29: John Harris who received his master of divinity degree from Southeastern Seminary and An MA in history from Liberty University.
02:40: He is the co -author of a couple of books and the one we are addressing today is
02:47: Christianity and social justice Religions in conflict. It's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to iron sharpens iron
02:55: John Harris It's great to be with you Chris always. Thank you so much and I'm excited for you here in your description there.
03:04: I'd like to go look at those pictures. Yeah, it's it's just such a joy it is It's actually such a rebuke to me for being so anxious and fearful that I would not find
03:15: An adequate facility when I found out that my landlords my current landlords are selling their historic house where this program has been broadcasting since we relaunched in 2015 and contrary to Christ's admonition to us to be anxious for nothing.
03:34: I was anxious about everything in regard to finding a new place for a reasonable cost in a nice neighborhood and The Lord gave me abundantly more that which
03:48: I even had hoped for So I'm looking forward. I'm looking forward to broadcasting from there for many years.
03:55: God willing and Yeah, I think all of you who have been praying for this but You have written a previous book social justice goes to church
04:10: Tell us how Christianity and social justice religions and conflict is different from the previous book
04:16: Yeah, I did it backwards. I should have probably written Christianity and social justice first so Christianity and social justice the new one, but I just released this year is
04:27: I actually kind of riffed off of Jay Gresham Machen's book Christianity and liberalism
04:33: And it it's sort of the same thing. We are looking at social justice and examining it as a religion not just a political movement and I trace the history of it who the major thinkers were
04:45: What it teaches and then I go through How it syncretizes with Christianity?
04:52: so I do name names of Even people within evangelical circles who have tried to syncretize with this and I point out the false ideologies that theology
05:01: I'll even say heresy that comes from this and I give Christians a
05:07: Helpful hopefully a helpful way to respond to it from the Bible and from their own church history
05:14: So that's the gist of it It's I want it to be as practical as possible for laymen who are in their churches
05:21: And maybe they got a new pastor or you know Just something doesn't feel quite right from the pulpit and this is a book to help them identify what that might be and then to You put the purposes of reconciliation and doctrinal integrity to confront it and what
05:38: I've heard is that people who have Brought this book and read it and they are using it that way and it has been helpful
05:45: So I feel like I hit the mark with that and then the first one that I came out with a year ago
05:52: Social justice goes to church. That's really more of a book to satisfy people's curiosity It traces the history of how social justice ideology made its way into evangelical circles
06:02: If you want to know how did this happen then you read that book if you want to know how to fight it you read the new one
06:07: Christianity and social justice I'm going to give our listeners my email address right away in case they have any questions
06:15: It is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com Chris ar n ze energy mail .com
06:22: as always give us your first name at least your city and state and your country of residence if you live outside the
06:29: USA only remain anonymous if Your question involves a personal and private matter and some people may be scratching their head rolling their eyes
06:40: Saying to myself. Hey, you know Chris I'm on the same page with you and John Harris and all the other guests you've had on the program opposing the social justice movement critical race theory
06:55: Wokeism in general, but come on man. You've had Probably more than a dozen interviews on this subject.
07:03: Why don't you give it a rest enough is enough? well, I don't think enough is enough because I have just been astonished as Time progresses to see who is coming out of the word work as they say
07:18: When it comes to this topic when it comes to people who embrace Social justice as it is defined by those in the woke movement who are coming from Conservative and confessionally reformed churches.
07:37: I'm my mind is spinning. I can't even I can't even comprehend How some people who have been members in good standing and even in leadership positions?
07:47: especially in reformed Baptist Circles confessional reform
07:53: Baptist circles. I've heard about it Being fairly unfortunately rampant in Such denominations as the
08:04: PCA and I have and I have to be quick to say there are a multitude of very fine outstanding
08:12: PCA churches and pastors who are equally as opposed to this movement as I am But it seems to be amongst reformed people the place where you most commonly find
08:24: The the woke advocates the social justice advocates, but it is something that is typically unheard of in Old school confessionally reformed
08:35: Baptist churches and now I'm finding it Even existing amongst members there. I haven't heard of any churches yet in that category that are identifying the entire congregation that way but Have you experienced the same thing and that I am experiencing?
08:52: Well, I'll say this every time I go to a church to speak about this and I last month I've probably been to six churches.
08:58: I always ask How many of you have lost a friend or had a strained? relationship because of the social justice movement and 75 % to 90 % of the people raise their hand and I've been in churches that Have split or grown because they were the only orthodox place in town and everyone else is cleaning the other churches and Whether it's the issue with Kovat or the social justice issue, which
09:22: I think are actually two sides of the same coin If this has certainly created a situation where people are
09:30: It's rearranging the deck people are becoming friends with others that they didn't previously know and they're losing friends and relationships they used to have maybe for years and It's not just a political thing.
09:42: It's this is a fundamental religion That's what people need to understand.
09:48: That's why it's creating the tears that it's creating because we imbibe this at a very deep level
09:54: Yeah, I had a friend Recently who gave me a subtle chastisement in social media
10:06: When I referred to social justice critical race theory and woke ism as heresy and This individual who is not in favor of this movement or these ideologies said well
10:23: Heresy is an inappropriate term because this is not a religious movement. I said, oh you could not be more mistaken.
10:30: Why don't you? Get a little bit more detail than why this is actually a religious movement
10:37: Sure, yeah, it has somewhat of an obvious Indian framework original sin
10:44: There's a conversion experience There's an eternal state if you will
10:50: So I'll just go through a few things you have whiteness or heterosexuality or maleness being an original sin
10:58: Parallel you have political correctness as a new divine law There's a judgment mechanism, which is just getting canceled.
11:05: It's in the here and now it's not in the afterlife and the good news is you can become born again, which is really just becoming woke and you can participate in the revolution by taking progressive political action and Eventually one day maybe we'll get to a state where we have equity inclusion and diversity.
11:22: That's their version of heaven and Then it parallels everything else to the church they have it
11:28: You know a different anthropology But they they also have you know similar things that Christians would recognize like they have their own saints which are victims of police shootings and they're the chosen ones, which are the social justice warrior and They have their own canon of woke book
11:45: So I mean there's so many things that parallel Christianity or other religions for that matter I think you'd have to be pretty ignorant or Or just You're suppressing the truth at this point if you don't see this in religious terms the devotees certainly do and their fervor is very similar to the fervor of religious crusaders
12:07: Yeah, in fact Atheists and agnostics are blind to the reality that their
12:15: Ideology is religious even if they claim to deny The existence of God first of all, we know in reality from Romans 9.
12:25: There are truly no atheists But those that claim to be those that convinced themselves that they are atheists
12:33: Their rhetoric is equally religious. In fact, there are atheists who talk more about God Albeit in the negative fashion and deny his existence, but they talk more about him and are offended more by him
12:46: Very often than sadly even Christians speak of God Well this this
12:58: Comparison that you have here in the very title of the book
13:05: Christianity and social justice religions and conflict
13:12: How Do you respond to those that are actually professing
13:17: Christians even those that profess to be confessional reformed conservative and believers in scriptural inerrancy how do you respond to them by Respond to them when they in varying degrees of boldness sometimes
13:39: Just Timid acquiescence and sometimes fire and fury comes from their mouths and their writings in bold advocacy of this movement and its ideologies as being completely not only compatible with Christianity, but a primary theme in Christianity they speak and write often as if if you're if your understanding of the
14:14: Christian faith does not include these concepts and boldly and unashamedly and unabashedly
14:22: Defend and proclaim these concepts your Christianity is false. I mean some of them go that far.
14:28: So, how do you respond to these folks? Yeah, it depends Like you said there's a spectrum so it depends on to what degree
14:35: I'm responding or they've given themselves over and then What format
14:41: I have to respond if it's social media may be different than an in -person conversation and my relationship makes a difference
14:47: But this isn't theoretical for me because I've had so many different conversations and opportunities to confront just this and And the situation you're giving a reformed person
15:00: So someone who's somewhere aware of theology should we would think would know better than to get sucked into a false narrative
15:09: I really try to just push the antithesis with them and just show them here is what you're adopting.
15:15: Here's where it contradicts scripture and You know to some degree depending on how aggressive they are
15:21: I may affirm some of the Maybe good intentions they may have but ultimately their lead the path they're on is leading them to destruction and it is predicated on a false anthropology a false view of reality and truth there's an egalitarian equality that you'll never find in this world and it's just built on lies essentially and so I see aspects of Gnosticism Pelagianism, Marcionism certainly
15:57: Phariseeism and the Galatian heresy at play in the efforts to synchrotize social justice and And so I'll start there.
16:05: I think the best place usually Depending on what the situation is it may be different but I usually try to start off with truth because you need a foundation and Is there truth that's available to everyone regardless of their social location?
16:22: Can we all look at God's Word and understand it by being
16:27: Bereans and putting in the time and effort necessary and Relying on the
16:32: Holy Spirit and you know the tools that God has given us or do we need some oppressed perspective?
16:38: And I think that's a great place to start because if you don't start there Then you're just going to be talking past each other. You need to have a understanding what truth is
16:46: Before you can move forward to all the other issues at play. So If you understand standpoint epistemology well
16:53: Which my book does go into that you'll be able to be equipped for a conversation like that I think most people don't know they're buying into it
17:02: Well, let's get more involved I know that I have had guests address this on a number of occasions
17:08: But I think as I already mentioned at the outset all of this bears repeating Give us the history of social justice, please and obviously in abbreviated form since this is a two -hour program.
17:19: Yeah Okay, yeah, let me get quick as I can I start with Jean -Jacques Rousseau He believed that we needed to achieve an egalitarian ideal by dismantling social institution
17:30: That prevented its achievement and by egalitarian, I mean in a
17:35: French Revolutionary sense equality So we're going to bring an equality by leveling all these institutions that are preventing it from being achieved
17:43: So that could be monarchy that could even be the family that could be with labor relationships all sorts of things and in order to do that, we need to implement a force capable of executing this utopian dream and So the government is a logical mechanism by which social justice is forced upon everyone
18:01: And so there is a hierarchy in social justice It's just not the natural hierarchies that arise or the biblical hierarchies we see in Scripture it's a hierarchy of the state and then the individual and And Rousseau, you know, you were saying that reformed people tend to I mean you find social justice in their ranks
18:22: I mean Rousseau claimed to be a Calvinist at one point. So this isn't the first time that this has happened You have further development from Karl Marx who saw everything in terms of economics inequality was around because in disparities because there is economic disparities and then
18:38: Antonio Gramsci Developed more he introduced cultural
18:44: Marxism, which basically taught that it's not just a economic disparity there's actually this complex interdependent web of power that exists called the hegemony and People that are oppressed actually want to be oppressed and they live in this oppression.
19:00: They don't see it as oppression So we have to drill down deep into culture to find out where the oppression is and a
19:05: Frankfurt school Who were the ones to come up with critical theory drilled down deep throughout the 20th century you have added to that some of the
19:16: French deconstructionist like Jacques Derrida and Mikhail Foucault who ended up deconstructing language and meaning and then that brings us to today's critical race theory critical race theory is really just a further development in critical theory that combines post -modernism and Marxism and they see progress in American race relations as largely a mirage because white privilege exists and so that's what we're in right now that and intersectionality and The ultimate goal of all these movements,
19:50: I think it's to destroy orthodox Christianity, which I know is a bold claim But I back it up in the book And and Christians need to be aware of this
19:57: This is something that's been around for a long time And the church has tried to compromise us it over and over and every time it ends up in the same place
20:05: The Christian denominations that go in this direction end up dying Because they have no truth left.
20:12: They abandon the Bible. They abandon orthodoxy. So this is a poison pill. We need to identify it as that Well, one of the major themes that we've been hearing even before a full -blown social justice
20:30: Ideology has dominated the the media We've been hearing for quite a long time about redistributive justice if you could get a little bit more into the
20:41: Yeah, sure. So redistribution is the mechanism by which we're going to make everything equal and By equality,
20:49: I mean an egalitarian equality. It's not equality before the law. It's not equal, right? it's essentially it ends up an equal outcome and The phrase that we often hear today is equity diversity inclusion, which is the it's just an extension of this egalitarian
21:04: Equality just the terms that we use for it today. And so in order to make sure that Things are equal.
21:13: We're going to really arbitrarily the sociologists come up with the
21:18: Groups that are marginalized that they see as marginalized that deserves some kind of a recompense for either historic
21:25: Discrimination or even or present discrimination as it were some kind of barriers and disadvantages they face because of the majority culture and in in order to Bring about justice.
21:39: There needs to be some kind of an economic redistribution whether that's through taxes or through churches sometimes want to voluntarily do this they try to guilt people into giving to a particular thing because They they need to because of their white privilege or something like that or it could be in the form of Redistributing your privilege.
21:59: It doesn't have to be economic it could be You need to make sure that the monuments your ancestors are taken down because they occupy too much of a prominent space and represent oppression and we need to erect things that demonstrate or give you have some kind of a platform to groups that have been
22:20: Suffered more or something like that It could be diversifying your elder board at church or diversifying the church library
22:27: So, I mean, there's many ways that this takes place, but ultimately the goal is to somehow bring about Equality of outcome and so everyone's the same.
22:38: No one has an advantage over anyone else and all the wrongs of the past have been righted and And it'll be great because we can just live in this great society that we create of course, this is man -centered it's naive
22:51: That's not possible. You have to steal in order to do it There is no actual redemption in any of this if you're in the quote -unquote oppressor class according to sociologists
23:03: So that's the redistribution mechanism and it does precede the phrase social justice.
23:09: The phrase social justice is It's been around for a while, but it was really made popular at the turn of the century by Walter mothers who were social gospel proponents who wanted to take
23:22: Fabian socialism from the United Kingdom and Bring it to America and Americans didn't like socialism.
23:27: So they called the social justice by preceding them You have redistributed justice and it's the same thing
23:34: It's just trying to bring about some kind of equality that like I said is impossible and By means that God has not ordained
23:45: Well, we have to go to our first break right now And as I've said before if you have a question that you'd like to ask
23:52: John Harris about this issue Christianity and social justice religions and conflict.
23:58: Give us an email at chris arnzen at gmail .com Chris a are n ze n at gmail .com
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38:02: John Harris author of Christianity and social justice religions and conflict if you would like to Submit your own question
38:13: My email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com Chris Arnzen at gmail .com
38:19: if you want to know John if you want to know why I started to get tongue -tied there for a second.
38:25: I was looking over at your cover and I almost had a
38:32: Coronary arrest because I thought that it said forward by Russell Moore Russell Fuller is
38:48: But anyway I'm sorry. I said
38:53: I confused them once too on my podcast. It was kind of embarrassing If anybody is wondering why we're laughing it's because Russell Moore Happens to be one of the strongest advocates of this movement coming from and rather than a professedly conservative and Reformed perspective within the
39:16: Southern Baptist Convention We have a listener in Ada, Ohio David who says
39:24: Does the movement you're talking about? Actually have a God that they worship and identify as such if so, would that mean they are worshiping demons?
39:36: ie all false gods are demon worship or are they just a Or are they just Identify parallels.
39:45: I don't know if that is just the typo there Or are they just maybe he meant identical parallels
39:53: To the Christian Church without identifying a God that they pray to well, it's a multifaceted movement, isn't it?
40:00: I mean you have people that make no profession of Christianity and you have those that are Pastors of Christian churches that identify with this movement.
40:08: So I'm assuming this is not a cookie -cutter answer Yeah, it's a little more complicated
40:14: Francis Schaeffer said that Marxism was a Christian heresy. So there's Elements that I just pointed out that do parallel It's a rotting corpse of Christianity that Marxism feeds on its people who grew up with some sense of Christianity Maybe it was their grandparents passing it to them
40:33: But they they grab on to social justice because it feels like something familiar to them
40:39: And and so it really did arise in these post -christian societies, but it is secular
40:44: It's not it doesn't purport to have a deity like Islam or Mormons or you know other cults would have they do have certain attributes of God manifested in Nature so, you know, we think of Providence as reformed
41:01: Christians as being something that even through trials, you know brings about something good for those who
41:09: Love God and are called according to his purpose, but in social justice theory. They have what's called social conflict theory and We don't instead of seeing
41:18: Providence. They see the Forces that are conflicting with each other and society as being responsible for the current status quo
41:28: So that's where you know you have Remember this a few years ago. You probably do too Chris where Obama had told
41:34: I think it was Joe the plumber You know, you may I don't even know if it was someone that you didn't build that your business that you built
41:40: You didn't build that that was the government who made the road You know, it's that kind of thing. So there's not
41:45: Providence. It's It actually shuts God out of the equation that's not responsible or even part of this discussion, it's all
41:55: Human beings and everything they do is motivated by some kind of power play They want to oppress someone and the government is the one that alleviates the oppression
42:04: So it's secularist But yeah Like we were saying that the Christians will syncretize with this the term social justice itself is a syncretism
42:13: I think syncretized word it is meant to introduce Atheistic Fabian socialism into the
42:21: United States by making it palatable to Christians So yeah, in one sense, we could say it's secular in another sense.
42:29: We could say that the current iteration is very willing to Syncretize and merge with all kinds of faith
42:38: Black Lives Matter movement, right the leaders of that movement are into African shamanism stuff
42:44: So, I mean, there's certainly religious elements to this that they're even honest about So it's a little more complicated, but that's the answer
42:55: Well, thank you David make sure you give us your full Mailing address in Ada, Ohio because you have won a free copy of Christianity and social justice religions and conflict by John Harris By the way, we also just have a shout -out to you from Andrew in Raleigh, North Carolina We know it's costly and you'll get grief for it, but you're doing the right thing.
43:20: So thank you Andrew for that encouraging word For our guests today
43:28: Now, how do you respond to the defense of the aforementioned aspect of this?
43:37: Heresy Regarding redistributive justice. There may be those that are either
43:43: Christians professing Christians or Leftists who love to rub
43:50: Cherry -picked Bible verses in the face of Conservative Christians thinking that they have a gotcha moment when they are completely misinterpreting
44:02: The text but there are there are some that may use the whole story of Zacchaeus for instance the tax collector who was very dishonest and basically robbing people
44:17: And when he came to Christ in saving faith He made restitution
44:26: For those that he had robbed And and not only just gave them back what he had robbed but much more so So, how do you respond to those folks that try to use something like that as a defense?
44:41: I Think the answer is in how you framed it. It was those who he had robbed and It wasn't the kind of scheme that's being discussed today to give reparations to the ancestors of people who
44:56: Their Ancestors may have experienced some kind of oppression. It's more in the
45:01: Zacchaeus the situation he had personally done some wrong things to people and Wanted to make it right and so the
45:08: Bible does teach restitution There's there's no question about that. But the goal of that isn't
45:15: Zacchaeus didn't go to the people he had wronged and then compare his Wealth to their wealth and try to come about up with some kind of system so that they could both be equal
45:25: It was really in the preservation of private property, which goes right in the face of the social justice movement
45:31: They don't like that. They don't like private property, but that's what Zacchaeus was actually respecting in that situation
45:36: So I think it actually works the exact opposite of how social justice advocates want to use that story
45:44: By the way, we just have another shout out to you of encouragement pastor
45:52: Tim Bushong of Syracuse, Indiana Who I happen to be familiar with as well fine pastor who actually does one of the
46:05: An ASB ads for us here and for some reason
46:11: I'm having difficulty Enlarging his His his text on microscopic font or his email
46:21: His email here. It says awesome We had John Harris out for our
46:27: Jesus and politics conference back in October say hi for me And he's great a very kind and So what about this whole idea of socialism and Marxism Obviously some of the movers and shakers in this ideology like those that founded the
46:51: Black Lives Matter Organization are openly Marxist, but right
46:58: I I had a conversation with a friend Who I have a lot of high regard for I've actually had this brother
47:08: Preach at my pastor's luncheon a number of years ago And I have arranged other speaking engagements for him.
47:17: I have even highly recommended him to Candidate for a pastorate of a prominent
47:27: Long Island Church where I used to live But I've become saddened that he has
47:36: Become somewhat warm towards this ideology and Basically said that He sees problems amongst those that are for it and those that are against it, but he finds
47:52: More problems with those that are against it, but he said to me That the
47:58: Christians that he knows personally those that especially claim to be reformed he says none of them claim to be
48:05: Marxists or none of them want to promote the
48:13: Ideology of Marxism and socialism and communism. So how do you respond to folks who say things like that?
48:22: Yeah, that's not to be shameless and plugging the book again, but that's part of the reason I actually wrote the book because I went to a
48:30: Theological seminary that was everything presented it as a reformed leaning seminary and this stuff was everywhere there and I mean all over the place and They would themselves of say, of course, we're not
48:46: Marxists. We're not communists. You're slandering us say that I mean how many Democrat though members of Congress would say that they're
48:52: Marxist there might be a few but most people don't want that That's a negative pejorative especially for those who live through parts of the
49:00: Cold War, so I don't like to make that the main
49:05: I don't start out the conversation with calling people a Marxist I usually ask you know, try to get them to define their worldview and And then
49:15: If Marxism comes out of that if I start identifying characteristic Marxist things then
49:21: I may point it out over time, but most people are not classical Marxist in this movement, they're
49:28: They're an iteration of Marxism. It's downstream from Karl Marx and a lot of things have been added to it postmodern things
49:35: And most people don't think about the worldview that they actually Live in and used to interpret reality.
49:44: It's just worldviews are caught more than taught So you don't have to read Marx to be adopting some of his ideas through others
49:53: And so I do point out in the book many names of prominent Evangelicals who even would say their reforms you have bought into this to some degree and I point out where they bought into it why it's wrong and You really do have to be on your toes with this because they they want to make that the issue
50:12: I Prefer not to make that the issue whether or not someone's a
50:18: Marxist or not. I just want to know Okay, is what you're believing true? Is it error and if it's error if it doesn't comport to the
50:25: Word of God Then we need to disassociate from it and perhaps even anathematize it if it's a false gospel
50:32: Which you pointed out earlier some of the social justice stuff. In fact much of it is a false gospel.
50:37: It totally Syncretizes a social justice law with the gospel, which is no different than the
50:44: Galatian heresy. And anytime you hear someone say You have part of the gospel or your gospel is not complete or you know
50:53: There's a leftist cause over here at the gospel issue. You're hearing that Galatian heresy and People that are usually advocating that don't even think in those terms
51:02: They don't think that that's what they're doing. So they do need someone with discernment to approach them, but But I don't usually start with calling them
51:09: Marxist. That's usually a big turnoff and they don't like that. So I try to start a little more diplomatically
51:19: Well, we have to go to our midway break right now. This is the break. That's a bit longer than the others folks
51:25: So, please be patient with us. We have to have a longer break in the middle of the show Grace Life Radio in Lake City, Florida requires of us a
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54:40: Hope to see you there This is pastor
54:57: Bill Sousa Grace Church at Franklin here in the beautiful state of Tennessee Our congregation is one of a growing number of churches who love and support iron sharpens iron radio
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55:17: Which strives to clearly declare the whole counsel of God as revealed in scripture through the person and work of our
55:24: Lord Jesus Christ and of course the end for which we strive is the glory of God If you live near Franklin, Tennessee and Franklin is just south of Nashville, maybe ten minutes
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56:01: This is pastor Bill Sousa wishing you all the richest blessings of our sovereign
56:08: Lord God Savior and King Jesus Christ today and always
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01:00:59: I frequently get requests from listeners for church recommendations the church I've been strongly recommending as far back as the 1980s is
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01:01:15: God's prerogative to determine how he shall be worshiped and how he shall be represented in the world
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01:01:27: God in spirit and truth Grace Covenant Baptist Church endeavors to maintain a
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01:01:39: Baptism and communion are the scriptural elements of their corporate worship performed with faith joy and sobriety discover more about Grace Covenant Baptist Church in Flemington, New Jersey at GCBCNJ dot
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01:04:07: Pastor Bill Sousa of Grace Church at Franklin here in the beautiful state of Tennessee This is
01:04:13: Pastor Bill Sousa of Grace Church at Franklin here in the beautiful state of Tennessee Our congregation is one of a growing number of churches who love and support Iron Sharpens Iron Radio financially.
01:04:21: Grace Church at Franklin is an independent autonomous body of believers who strives to clearly declare the whole counsel of God as revealed in Scripture through the person and work of our
01:04:34: Lord Jesus Christ. And, of course, the end for which we strive is the glory of God.
01:04:41: If you live near Franklin, Tennessee, and Franklin is just south of Nashville, maybe ten minutes, or you are visiting this area, or you have friends and loved ones nearby, we hope you will join us some
01:04:54: Lord's Day in worshiping our God and Savior. Please feel free to contact me if you have more questions about Grace Church at Franklin.
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01:05:12: Pastor Bill Souser wishing you all the richest blessings of our Sovereign Lord, God, Savior, and King Jesus Christ today and always.
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01:09:45: By the way, folks, I hope that many of you listening will join me
01:09:51: December 10th through the 12th, which is next week, for the
01:09:57: Nonconformist Ministries Conference in New York City. I am very excited about this conference being hosted by Pastor Andrew Woodard of Providence Baptist Church of Manhattan, one of the very few churches in Manhattan that takes a public, vocal, strong stance against the woke movement, against critical race theory, against Black Lives Matter, against all of these things that have so corrupted the minds of not only the lost but even professing
01:10:42: Christians. And this is going to be, I believe, an extraordinary conference.
01:10:49: And if you have interest in attending this conference, joining me at this conference, and I hope you do, you can either email me, chrisarnson at gmail .com,
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01:15:00: Bible believing church, or if you have family, friends and loved ones that are not members of local
01:15:07: Bible believing churches, no matter where on the planet Earth you or they live, I have extensive lists spanning the globe featuring biblically rock -solid churches everywhere.
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01:15:43: That's also the email address where you can send in a question to our guest today, John Harris, as we continue our fascinating discussion on Christianity and social justice religions in conflict.
01:15:55: That's chrisarnson at gmail .com chrisarnson at gmail .com Some of you have sent in questions without identifying where you live, your city, state and country of residence.
01:16:08: So please, if you are one of them who have just sent in a question without that information, please go back to your email, resend it, including your city, state and country of residence, and we will have our guest answer your question to the best of his ability.
01:16:28: We have Andrew from Dalton, Georgia, who says, Greetings Brothers Chris and John. If not previously mentioned, as I begin listening late, could you help us to understand
01:16:41: Tony Evans' kingdom race theology? Is this not the same thing as CRT essentially, only given a new name?
01:16:51: Thanks, God bless you both. I have not heard about this. Maybe you have?
01:16:58: I have, yeah, I did a podcast on it, I don't know, maybe a month and a half ago or something. But yeah,
01:17:03: Tony Evans has tried to come up with some kind of alternative to critical race theory that is biblical, and he calls it kingdom race theology.
01:17:17: It would be KRD, I guess. Or KRT, rather.
01:17:23: And that's what he's trying to market to Christians at universities, like he was at Liberty University talking about this.
01:17:31: And I listened to his lectures on it, and from what I can tell, it's a syncretized critical race theory.
01:17:39: He doesn't adopt every element of CRT, but he does adopt some of them.
01:17:45: And then he tries to merge that with racial reconciliation and Jews and Gentiles becoming one in Christ, and that's the same thing.
01:17:55: And it's really not. So he implies Peter's a racist, which is a very typical tactic that social justice evangelicals take.
01:18:04: So I would stay away from that, but it does market itself as something that's more biblical.
01:18:11: So it's very sneaky the way some of these people will communicate, and it's very subversive, actually.
01:18:17: That's what Paul said, right? That people come prepped in unaware, and so there's a subversive nature to this.
01:18:25: Wow. I have not heard about that. I'm glad that I have learned about that. Let me have you clarify something, though.
01:18:33: Sure. You said that he accused Peter of racism. Is that what you said? Yeah, that's a very standard thing.
01:18:40: He's not the only one to do that. But, yeah, there's some kind of a problem with Peter, that the theological disagreement over the
01:18:47: Judaizer heresy was really, it was a cultural clash, and racism was at play, and that was the real issue.
01:18:54: Well, don't you think, though, that temporarily, before Paul rebuked him, that Peter was guilty of bigotry against the
01:19:02: Gentiles, which was why he was, you know, siding with those that were not eating with the
01:19:09: Gentiles, the Jews, the Jewish Christians that were not eating with the Gentiles? I'm not saying that he was perpetual.
01:19:14: Yeah, yeah. No, sure. No, it's fair. I mean, that could certainly be part of it, but people who try to make that the main thing, that that's the fundamental disagreement here, are missing the big picture, which is there's a theological problem, that it was over circumcision and following the laws contained in ordinances.
01:19:31: It wasn't about your skin color, or your socioeconomic background, or your social location, or any of these things.
01:19:39: So, yeah, I'm sure that there's stigmas that are attached to that, that, you know, the way someone looks can certainly play into it, but that wasn't the main issue.
01:19:49: And that's the problem. It's an emphasis problem. Jarvis Williams does this, too, when he very self, or very honestly, he unashamedly takes critical race theory and merges it with the
01:20:05: Bible, and he uses the same story to try to prove his case, that this CRT -driven racial reconciliation is in Galatians, and that's what
01:20:13: Galatians is about. And it's just simply not true. That's not what Galatians was about. So I hope that answers it.
01:20:20: I don't know if I answered it completely or not, but that's my reading of that.
01:20:26: And I do get into it somewhat in the book. Well, Andrew of Dalton, Georgia, please make sure that we have your full mailing address in Dalton, Georgia, because you have also won a free copy of Christianity and Social Justice, Religions in Conflict by our guest,
01:20:47: John Harris. And the issue that comes up a lot when
01:20:57: I am speaking either on the air about this or off the air is how do we treat our brethren when they rise up and begin to make public their allegiance to social justice and many of the ideologies underneath the woke umbrella?
01:21:25: Are we to disfellowship them? Are we to not invite the pastors that are guilty of this to speak at our churches?
01:21:35: Not on the subject of social justice, of course, but if they wanted to do a series on the five points of Calvinism or something that is unrelated to these things, should our pulpits be open to them?
01:21:51: If they are members of our churches, should they be under discipline if they are very vocal about this and trying to proselytize these things?
01:22:02: How are we supposed to respond to this? I see a good model in Galatians where Paul confronts
01:22:09: Peter. Peter wasn't condemned. There was no anathema against Peter. But he was being unclear, it says in chapter 2, about the gospel.
01:22:18: And that's the issue. So if someone is being unclear about the gospel and they respond to correction, then there's a restoration that can take place.
01:22:26: But if they refuse to do that and they're going to keep pushing the same false ideologies which undermine objective truth and the gospel and biblical justice, which we haven't even gotten into all those things, but if it totally contradicts
01:22:43: Christianity and they're going to keep pushing these ideas, then the answer is, yeah, absolutely disfellowship them.
01:22:48: Or at least don't promote them. If you're going to have a conference and they were invited, that's perfectly appropriate.
01:22:58: And you have to be clear about it. And so this is where I guess I'm unique in a sense.
01:23:04: I'm sure, Chris, you're this way as well, but there's not many like us where if someone is going to promote critical race theory, and they may do it by another name, maybe it's kingdom race theology or something, but the ideas that are contained in critical race theory are going to be merged with the
01:23:22: Bible somehow. And they're unapologetic about it. I don't have a problem calling them a false teacher and saying, stay away from that person.
01:23:30: And I know that harms relationships, and people don't, you know, that's so mean you shouldn't say that, but the model that we have from the
01:23:38: New Testament is to be clear about error. And the people who are causing the division are the ones who bring the error.
01:23:45: It's not those who are trying to defend the truth and correct the error. So I'm not causing division by pointing out that someone's a wolf or someone's being subversive and is a false teacher.
01:24:00: Okay, we have a question from somebody that has not provided their name, city, state, or country.
01:24:07: So I'm assuming this person wants to remain anonymous. The question is, is
01:24:12: D -B -U still a solid conservative choice anymore? Now, I'm revealing my ignorance right now, but what is
01:24:20: D -B -U? D -B -U? Yeah, D as in David, B as in boy,
01:24:25: U as in university. Huh. I'm not sure what university that's referring to.
01:24:32: It might not even be a university. I just used that word to identify that.
01:24:38: Dallas? Maybe Dallas Baptist? I don't know. Yeah, I wouldn't know the answer to that exactly.
01:24:45: Well, listener, if you could rewrite your question and give us the full name of this entity you're speaking of or of which you're speaking,
01:24:53: D -B -U, and also please provide your first name, city, and state and country of residence. Unless there is a reason, you're remaining anonymous.
01:25:02: So hopefully we'll find out what exactly that means. Yeah, D -B -U. I don't know.
01:25:07: It could be a lot of things. Have you had pushback at all from people that are coming from unexpected backgrounds regarding your book?
01:25:25: Or perhaps even what, if any, pushback or even outright opposition have you witnessed against those that are taking a stance against social justice from unlikely places?
01:25:44: We all expect it from liberals and leftists that find out about anyone who may be taking a stance against this.
01:25:53: But as I even told you off the air earlier, I have been shocked when, actually
01:25:59: I may have even mentioned it on the air, but I've been shocked by some of the places where some of the advocates of social justice are rising up, even confessional reform
01:26:11: Baptist churches, although that is, from my experience, the least likely place to find advocates of this.
01:26:18: It obviously still exists because I've experienced it. So do you have any...?
01:26:26: Well, I started an LLC for a documentary filmmaking group back in January, and we've been tracking some stories that are just incredible.
01:26:39: We put out one called Paint the Wall Black, which is about a Christian young man who basically got canceled by BLM.
01:26:45: But like you said, we expect that from BLM. What this person did not expect, and he had the number one restaurant in Chicago, and his business was totally shut down, was that people from the local
01:26:58: Christian university came out and were protesting with the protesters against him, which is
01:27:03: Moody. That's Moody Bible Institute. So that's the kind of thing that I think shocked me at first.
01:27:10: I was at Southeastern when I started bringing some of these issues up, and I was shocked to see how scared the conservative professors on campus were of talking about it, how emboldened the progressive professors were, and the administration.
01:27:25: And since that time, not much has surprised me, actually. So I guess I was kind of early on Redfield, for lack of a better term, through the whole thing, and my eyes were open, and I saw that there were a lot of self -proclaimed conservatives who were on the social justice bandwagon, and they weren't really conservative or orthodox in any traditional sense.
01:27:47: So, yeah, I mean, I've had people that will say that they're orthodox, and they go to a
01:27:53: Presbyterian or a Baptist church that's confessional, and then they're telling me that I'm a racist, or actually there's one
01:28:01: I just read recently that I was a patriarchal sexist. So, yeah, I mean, I get these kinds of things. But the people who say them, though, are the ones that have deviated from their own tradition and are the ones that have changed.
01:28:15: It's not me. I've stood still for my short life. I've pretty much been standing in about the same place.
01:28:22: So I don't think it's me that's changed. I think you probably feel the same way, Chris. I haven't changed.
01:28:29: What's going on? Oh, yeah, because some of the leading advocates of social justice are men that I have interviewed on this show as little as nine years ago who were saying polar opposite things that they're saying now, or polar opposite things to what they're saying now,
01:28:51: I should say. And it had me, especially when I first learned of it, completely baffled.
01:29:00: I'll say this on your show. I've never said this publicly, but I was a graduate assistant at Liberty University for two years, and we would get complaints coming into the school.
01:29:11: Fortunately, I was in a department that was very conservative, and they were able to basically shield that. But people trying to find out where I worked, calling the school to get me fired.
01:29:20: So these are Christians that are calling in or to get me disciplined or something like that.
01:29:27: So at that time, I was just making videos here and there talking about what was going on. But, yeah, it does come from places that I think people that are, like you said, nine years ago, solid in the ministries, and now you see what they're doing, and it's insane.
01:29:45: And it's not only that they were solid, but they were actually making it clear publicly, not only in what they said from podiums and pulpits, but what they wrote in published books, they were saying 180 -degree different things than they are saying today.
01:30:07: And the key part of that is I am not aware, I have not heard any statements by these specific individuals where they actually say,
01:30:19: I know I said things that are contrary to my current beliefs nine years ago, and I've written about things from a totally different perspective with a different biblical worldview.
01:30:33: But I repent of that. Please forgive me for that. I recant that.
01:30:40: I've not heard that kind of rhetoric, if you follow what I'm saying. It's as if they never said or wrote anything contrary to what they're saying now.
01:30:52: Yeah, no, you're right about that. It happens very rarely. I think of, actually, Al Mohler, I remember, in 2014, repented, he used that word, that he had opposed the idea of same -sex orientation and homosexual orientation, and now he realizes that was wrong.
01:31:08: So you have little things like that, but overall, no. What did he mean by that, by the way?
01:31:16: Do you know the full context of that? Yeah, he was at an ERLC event, and at that particular time, he was trying to make the point, he tried to riff on human depravity, that our orientation can be affected by our human depravity.
01:31:33: But that doesn't make sense, because on the briefing for years, he was opposing that, he was opposing the idea of orientation, because he knew as soon as you believe this was faked in, or somehow there's a foothold for some kind of a design flaw, or something, that people could claim, well,
01:31:51: I was born this way, it's just who I am. And of course, in Romans 9, we see the built -in answer from Paul.
01:31:59: Because I don't necessarily reject the notion that humans born totally depraved, if David was a liar from the womb, for somebody to have an inclination towards same -sex attraction as a part of their depraved nature,
01:32:19: I'm not ruling that out, but that does not give them a pass, and it does not...
01:32:25: Right, but everyone believes that. Every Orthodox Christian knows that there are certain sins that some people might have a propensity toward, or they might do more of...
01:32:35: That's not a revelation or news to anyone, but to come out and say, I apologize for opposing same -sex orientation, and using that language of orientation, which is a
01:32:44: Freudian category... Right, right, and even to apologize... Something a little more... As if you are...
01:32:52: You're sad, and you regret hurting the feelings of those that are involved in damnable sin.
01:32:59: You know what I mean? Right, right. For him to phrase it that way, I repent of that.
01:33:06: Well, I'll say this too, Chris. I don't know how many of these guys that have gone in this direction left children, or not...
01:33:13: They don't have children. Relative friends who have children who have come out of the closet, or they're on the woke train.
01:33:21: I mean, Lincoln Duncan said this as Shepard, essentially, I don't want my grandkids to go woke on LGBT, so I'll go woke on race.
01:33:27: And that's kind of the strategy, too, that we have to remember. There's a pragmatism here of, we don't want our kids and our grandkids to alienate us, so what can we do to try to appease them and accommodate them?
01:33:40: And that's a very serious thing, but Jesus said he came to bring us forward. We have to stick with Jesus, even over our children sometimes.
01:33:48: Yeah, and that is one of the greatest mysteries as well. Somebody as biblically knowledgeable and brilliant as Lincoln Duncan, who
01:33:57: I've had on this program years ago, who wrote a really extraordinary commendation for the show, how he could retain or maintain a very close affiliation with Jamar Tisby.
01:34:17: Well, he wrote the Forward to Woke Church. Yeah, there you go. Eric Mason, right there.
01:34:22: That's mind -boggling. Yeah, I agree. I had to walk out.
01:34:29: Well, I didn't have to. I chose to walk out with disgust from a session of the
01:34:36: Gospel Coalition conference. I can't remember how many years ago it was, but it was in Indianapolis, and there was a panel discussion that Jamar Tisby was involved in, and he said, this is what was the catalyst for me walking out, he said,
01:34:57: I'm so sick and tired of white Christians policing the theology of Dr.
01:35:05: King. Now, Jamar Tisby, if you're listening, I doubt you are, but aren't we as Christians bound to police everyone's theology, especially if they're a prominent figure teaching millions of people, and people who view this person as a hero for decades, and as an icon of even
01:35:30: Christianity. Aren't we supposed to police that person's theology? I mean, Paul commended the
01:35:36: Bereans for policing his theology, so I don't even understand a statement like that.
01:35:43: Yeah, I mean, I'll be the first to say, I mean, I think I Have a Dream speech is one of the greatest speeches in American history.
01:35:49: I mean, I think there's a great legacy there, but we cannot deny the fact that Martin Luther King Jr.
01:35:54: was a heretic, he also had some very bad moral indiscretions, we'll just leave it at that, and to hold him up as the quintessential
01:36:05: Christian hero, which is, by the way, what I experienced in my time at Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary, he could be ideal
01:36:13: Christian. We were selling his books at the church I went to, which is the Solvance Founders, Mark Dever, you know, with the
01:36:21: Nine Marks Church, I mean, it was at the school, but again, they're upholding this man and his theology and calling him a brother and a legitimate
01:36:32: Christian because he was right on some social issue, and they're ignoring his blatant heresy, and that's what the social justice movement does, it reprioritizes everything.
01:36:44: The revolution becomes more important than even fundamental Christian truth, and that should scare everyone.
01:36:52: Yeah, it sure should. In fact, I interviewed a biographer of King, somebody who wrote a biography of him within the last three years, a professedly
01:37:06: Reformed person, in fact, at the time, he was a pastor within the
01:37:12: Orthodox Presbyterian Church denomination, he is no longer in that denomination, but I interviewed him on his biography, and he said that he could not say with confidence that King was in heaven, even though this was a book, a biography, putting
01:37:30: King in the best possible light and saying that Christians should, you know, learn greatly from his teachings and his life and legacy.
01:37:42: It was not meant to be a critical examination of King, but my interview was.
01:37:49: I just wanted it to be an open and honest discussion about King, which was interesting.
01:37:55: The guest, right before we went on the air, when I was on the phone with him, said, what do you mean by open, honest discussion about King's theology?
01:38:03: I said, exactly that. I don't want us to cover up anything or candy coat anything, but during the interview he admitted that he cannot say with confidence
01:38:14: King is in heaven, and the only thing that he could point to as a reason for his own belief that there may very well have been a conversion of King, because he admits that King's beliefs in seminary were heretical, because King denied the deity of Christ he denied the virgin birth of Christ, he denied the substitutionary atonement of Christ, the bodily resurrection, and he said that since his father, who was a fundamentalist, according to this biography, a great biographer, his father was a fundamentalist who welcomed
01:39:01: Martin Jr. back into the church as a teacher, and because of Martin saying something to the effect of during his struggles in the civil rights movement that he said something to the effect,
01:39:21: I'm paraphrasing, that the God of my seminary days has no answer for these things, or something like that.
01:39:30: He was almost convinced that King, almost completely convinced,
01:39:36: I should say, that King did indeed have a rebirth. But the problem is, if you're truly born again and you know that you are a public figure that has taught damnable things, you're going to be on the rooftops making sure everybody knows that you've denounced your father.
01:39:55: It's more than what King said in seminary, too. That's often, they want to minimize the target.
01:40:01: Well, he wrote the Humanity and Divinity of Jesus paper, and that's heresy, but King was ecumenical.
01:40:07: He called his march in Selma with Catholics and Jews a second Great Awakening. He said that the rich man in Lazarus went to hell because he was a conscientious objector in the war against poverty.
01:40:21: That was in 1967. Christianity failed to see its own revolutionary edge, and he portrayed
01:40:29: Jesus as revolutionary throughout his whole career. He even used liberal language in 1968, right before his death, that Jesus had a glow of the divine.
01:40:38: This is not the language of Orthodox Christians, that Jesus was, in fact,
01:40:44: God. He's still referring to him as just having this glow. I don't see the evidence for it, but even if that's the case scenario, this is a guy who never recanted his heresy, and you're holding him up as the model
01:40:58: Christian. I have no problem with many people upholding him as a political hero.
01:41:09: I uphold Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin as political heroes, and I don't believe that they were regenerate.
01:41:16: I don't think there's any evidence. But I think there is a vast difference, as I even told this biographer in the interview.
01:41:24: There's a vast difference between identifying somebody as a hero whether it be
01:41:29: Babe Ruth or General George S. Patton or Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin, and we could go on and on.
01:41:39: There's a difference between identifying a person as a hero in those realms. There's a vast chasm of difference between identifying them as Christian heroes.
01:41:51: Agreed. We have to go to our final break. It's going to be much more brief than the other breaks. Please, if you have a question, send it to chrisarnson at gmail .com
01:42:00: chrisarnson at gmail .com And as always, give us your first name, city and state, and country of residence if you live outside the
01:42:08: USA. And we'll be right back. Don't go away. Don't go away.
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01:45:29: Hi, I'm Pastor Bob Walderman, and I invite you to come and join us here at Linbrook Baptist Church and see all that a church can be.
01:45:35: Call Linbrook Baptist at 516 -599 -9402. That's 516 -599 -9402.
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01:55:17: Marxism seeping into the church, the man that you just heard endorsing the
01:55:25: NASB, my dear friend Dr. Tony Costa of Toronto Baptist Seminary, a number of years ago presented a lecture at my biannual pastor's luncheon for Iron Sharpens Iron Radio on that very theme.
01:55:36: He did a masterful job, and you can actually see it on YouTube if you just type in the search engine, and I hope it's still there.
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01:55:55: That should be enough information to get the video of his lecture at my luncheon. John Harris, if you could, please conclude by summarizing what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today.
01:56:09: Well, Jesus. Amen. Jesus is enough.
01:56:16: His word is true. His ethics are right. We're called to make disciples by teaching people the things that he commanded, and social justice is not part of that.
01:56:27: He does command us to be people who are just, and he does want us to fulfill his law by engaging in charity, but this doesn't mean that taking from some and giving to others forcibly or using the mechanism of the government to create some kind of a utopia where everything is equal.
01:56:49: In fact, he said the poor will always be equal to us, and evil comes within man. It's not something outside of man that then corrupts man and makes man evil from the outside.
01:57:00: It's actually the heart of man that is ultimately evil. And so if I could encourage anyone who's young especially and wants to see change in the world, the first step is the gospel and introducing people to who
01:57:16: Jesus is, because without that then there's really not much you can do except rearrange the furniture on a thinking ship.
01:57:24: And then secondly, it's by studying and knowing his law. And once you look at the word of God, you'll find that it's not a book that assumes that you need to be in a certain social location to understand who
01:57:37: God is. He's available to everyone. His Holy Spirit gives gifts to all of his children no matter what social location they come from.
01:57:49: And so I think the fundamental assumptions of the social justice movement are just simply incorrect for the
01:57:56: Christians. And I hope that the book will help those trying to navigate this in their own church, because it does sound good at first.
01:58:03: I understand that. I understand how tempting it can be, especially when the whole culture is saying the same thing at the same time.
01:58:11: We've got to stand firm, like Luther did at the Diet of Forms. And that's what my encouragement is for people.
01:58:16: Stand firm. Amen. And how can our listeners get a hold of this book? You can go to ChristianityandSocialJustice .com
01:58:25: and you can order it from me directly. Are you there, brother? You're cutting out a little.
01:58:32: I'm sorry. ChristianityandSocialJustice .com or on Amazon. Great. And, folks, don't forget about the
01:58:40: Nonconformist Ministries Conference that I will be attending, God willing, next week, December 10th through the 12th in New York City.
01:58:48: The actual title of the conference is A Line in the Sand, and the speakers include my friend
01:58:55: Michael O 'Fallon, Mike Ebendroth, Josh Bice, Virgil Walker, Darrell Harrison, John Benzinger, Ryan Heffenbein, and Andy Woodard, who is also the host of this conference.
01:59:10: If you want more information, if you want to join me there in New York City, December 10th through the 12th, for the
01:59:16: Nonconformist Ministries Conference, A Line in the Sand, go to ncc .nyc
01:59:23: .com. I want to thank everybody for listening today, especially those who took the time in writing questions.
01:59:32: I want to thank my guest, of course, John Harris, for doing such an excellent job. And I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater