Should Mentally Retarded People Get Married?

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there's plenty of things you wouldn't have them doing that not like totally unrelated to marriage just general you know um you know like like it i've never i've never seen a mentally retarded doctor warning the following message may be offensive to some audiences these audiences may include but are not limited to professing christians who never read their bible sissies sodomites men with man buns those who approve of men with man buns man bun enablers white knights for men with man buns homemakers who have finished netflix but don't know how to meal plan and people refer to their pets as fur babies viewer discretion is advised people are tired of hearing nothing but doom and despair on the radio the message of christianity is that salvation is found in christ alone and any who reject christ therefore forfeit any hope of salvation any hope of heaven the issue is that humanity is in sin and the wrath of almighty god is hanging over our head they will hear his words they will not act upon them and when the floods of divine judgment when the fires of wrath come they will be consumed and they will perish god wrapped himself in flesh condescended and became a man died on the cross for sin was resurrected on the third day has ascended to the right hand of the father where he sits now to make intercession for us jesus is saying there is a group of people who will hear his words they will act upon them and when the floods of divine judgment come in that final day their house will stand welcome to bible bash where we aim to equip the saints for the works of ministry by answering the questions you're not allowed to ask we're your host harrison kerrigan pastor tim mullett and today we'll answer the age -old question should mentally retarded people get married now tim as we kick this episode off what bible verse do you have to read for us yeah first corinthians 7 39 says a wife is bound to her husband as long as he lives but if her husband dies she is free to be married to whom she wishes only in the lord okay so how does so in your mind how does that passage relate to the topic question of should mentally retarded people get married it's not intuitively obvious how i want you to spell it out okay yeah um yeah so you know this 1689 london confession basically says this it's lawful for all sorts of people to marry who are able with judgment to give their consent okay and this is a verse that is basically saying the same thing so a wife is bound to her husband as long as he lives but if her husband dies she's free to be married to whom she wishes only in the lord so the relevant phrase there is to say she's free to be married to whom she wishes which indicates that there's some sort of expectation that in order to get married a person needs to be able to consent to the thing so in that way then you know if you're trying to ask the question are mentally or should mentally retarded people get married one relevant consideration to this topic is that is the topic of are they like how far gone are they basically so are they able are they able to give their consent or not so if they're not then you know i think that this passage would rule out marriage for someone who's not able to they're not mentally able to give their consent to it i mean you could just imagine this like someone marrying someone like uh marrying a person in a coma or something like that it would be yeah like that's i mean that's basically marriage involves taking on vows right you're taking on responsibilities you're you're promising a lot of things that are you know um that are listed elsewhere in the bible and you know if you're the person if you're the person in a coma you you can't i mean that just would never stand you can't you can't take on any of that stuff because you don't even know what's happening right right right so there are certain commitments that are being made there's certain vows that are being exchanged so you think about the nature of what marriage is i mean this is like a specific textual argument for it but i mean you just think about what the nature of what marriage is in general marriage is a covenant that two people are making with each other and because marriage is a covenant then you do have to have two parties who are able to enter into that covenant who are voluntarily committing themselves to the duties the responsibilities and everything else of marriage so you know obviously yeah with with a subject like uh you know mental retardation there is a spectrum like a very broad spectrum of what you could even be talking about but at some point this would be a qualifier on it for sure right yeah not not even be able being able to how are you ever supposed to be held to a standard like for a man right the bible says that if he doesn't provide for his family he's worse than an infidel which is a which is a very big statement i feel like sometimes we kind of gloss over that there's a lot of people who just functionally don't even believe that that verse is true um but that's a huge statement to say that you're an infidel if you don't provide for your family and basically you know going back to the coma thing it's like hey you're trying to put someone essentially you're putting you're trying to put them into that situation where they can't provide for their family they haven't agreed to that um sure but then but then you're trying to put them in that situation whether you realize it or not and that would be viewed as a bad thing for the coma but then there's probably a lot of people out there who don't necessarily react the same way when you stop talking about the person who's in a coma and you start talking about the person who is mentally retarded and just not able to provide for a family yeah so there's two am i right in that assumption yeah i mean so there's two two basic arguments i would make one argument that i would make would be you have to think about the nature of consent are they able to consent to marriage like are they able to enter into the covenant itself uh take on those cover commit themselves to that so that's one issue like are they able to commit to this do they have the mental awareness that they need to even know what they're signing up for and sign up for it right but then too like i mean the second kind of component is what you're talking about and that is the component of are they able to actually fulfill the response like the duties and the responsibility responsibilities of marriage and that is a fairly significant point along those lines when you think about like what we're even talking about like meaning marriage means something uh now but what are you asking in particular about that i was just asking if if my assumption was right that the minute you stop talking about the the guy in a coma and you start and you start talking about the the mentally retarded guy who you're like hey this guy's not able to fulfill the vet like reasonably fulfill these vows i mean obviously obviously marriage is one of those things where you're not going to enter it perfectly and and start fulfilling all of your vows perfectly right from the start but then we're not having a question about how well someone will fulfill them we're having a or we're not having a conversation about how well they'll fulfill them we're having a conversation about can they be fulfilled at all to any degree right and so it seems like a lot of people they would they would agree with you when it comes to the guy in the coma they'd be like well yeah obviously you would never like you would never like no one should ever do that that makes no sense but then the minute you start talking about the the person who's mentally retarded all of a sudden i think for most people they they wouldn't be talking about it the same way yeah that's true so i mean we did a poll on this and 48 answered yes it's okay for mentally retarded people to get married so and the issue what's happening is that you have a significant percentage of the population of people even like people who are doctrinally solid in certain ways they we really don't know what marriage is anymore which is part of the problem so like in in this is really embarrassing that we don't know what marriage is anymore so and what i mean by that is that i mean i was watching i think it was like a 2004 interaction with alan keys and barack obama on the subject of gay marriage like today or whatever and so i was watching that and like i mean alan keys is not like some kind of strong conservative christian or something along those lines but yeah his argument against barack obama at this point was just to say that like marriage has a purpose like historically marriage has always been understood to have a intention and that intention of marriage was related to the goal of marriage like the telos of marriage like what marriage is designed to do what marriage is designed to do is it's designed for procreation that's what it's designed to do so like that's well that's that's like it's like tied up to the nature of what marriage actually is okay like it's like two become one right for this reason man will leave father mother whole pastor's wife to become one flesh and god bless them and said before for multiple i fell the earth and subdue it like the issue is that marriage itself is meant to be a picture of physical oneness that has a logical telos a logical outcome right and that outcome is bearing children like that's what that's what it's about man you know it's just that's just obvious that's that shouldn't even have to be explained to anyone but the issue is it has to it's not obvious to the vast majority of progressing christians 20 years later right than that so i mean that was obvious to someone who's not like yeah some um pastor or something like that i don't even know if he's a i would doubt he's even a professing christian i mean if he's a professing christian he's a professing christian i doubt very seriously he's really one you know so but like the issue is he knows that and you know but then the arguments on the other side are that hey yeah what about infertile people right it's like what but then so because the there's this existence of people who are infertile then that means that to you know same -sex people who are intentionally infertile like somehow we we can't tell the difference between something that's designed to do something and something that is like rules it out from the from the get -go right so it's like the issue is that it like you're almost having when you're having a discussion along these lines it's almost as if you're talking to people who don't know what eyes are for right like so you're saying hey um you're talking to the kind of person that says hey yeah why would it be wrong to pluck people's eyes out because some people can't see right yeah you know so like having eyesight is not essential to being a human you know because some people's eyes are broken so what's the big deal you know about doing that it's like yeah but in a foreign world you under you i mean you understand how that's not supposed to be what they were like yeah but see the issue is you're not even allowed to say that you see i mean it's like you're not even allowed so like you're living in a world where and and when you have people when you have like disability discussions like this is where this goes like with these disability discussions it goes along this route like where you're talking to people and they can't conceive of the reality that we didn't just arbitrarily set the world up to be dependent upon eyesight like that's just the way it's like well you just you know you just set the world up that way you know and you could have made it a different way and whatever else is because you know some people can't see you know and all that and it's like well no i mean this is the right here's the thing god made human beings and then he designed them for a purpose and the purpose he's done for his marriage and then what marriage is is two men like a man and a woman coming together and producing offspring and then you know like that's what the whole thing is about and that's what the institution is about and that's why it's something that even the government plays a role in is because like it's very important like there are there are responsibilities that come with producing offspring right um and everything else so like this is like this is why this institution came to exist we used to know this so but i mean that's a big long rabbit trail just to say that you're living in a time right now where people don't realize these basic things about marriage so you're living like post obergefell now post um redefining of marriage so at this point marriage in the minds of even christians who are solid christians it's just about two people coming together and finding fulfillment in each other's company right yeah the disney fairy tale yeah i mean yeah so it doesn't have anything to do with commitments that people are making i'm talking about christians like like like people who are professing christians they they think about marriage the same way that a sodomite thinks about marriage like in terms of the nature of what it is it's two opposite that were like for christian it's two opposite sex besties who are doing life together or something crass like that you know but like in the minds of the pagans it's any it's two consenting adults who are doing life together right but then it pretty soon it'll be like an adult and a kid or you know three adults or because you know you have a bisexual person who has to express their sexual orientation with both parties right so it's just it yeah it can be any number of people or a human with an animal or whatever else just doing life together so basically what marriage becomes in the minds of people is this big affirmation project right they basically just say that like you it's a societal exercise designed to validate your who you perceive yourself to be right yeah and that i mean and that's the way christians think about it like they think about it like this with in like every topic that you can think of related to the subject of marriage if you come along and say hey yeah you shouldn't just get married and be a dink for 10 years you know because god that's not what marriage is it's not just it's like well what about the infertile couple right it's like you're arguing like it's automatic like you're like do you not understand that's what you're doing you know so like the issue is we've we don't know what marriage is anymore and so then when you're having this discussion about like can retarded people get married should they get married we don't even know what merit we don't know what it's about right so then it becomes well like i mean if it makes them happy you know they're not like assuming they're not sodomites or something the same members of the same sex then it makes them happy then shouldn't they be able to participate right so you're but you see how it just feels like the same kind of argument that the sodomite is making along the sides because it's based on the same assumptions it's based on the same perspective of marriage but then when you think about what marriage actually is it's a covenant that you know a man and a woman are voluntarily willingly making with each other in order to produce offspring like that's that's what it's about right to be like a mutual source of edification a mutual help mates for it help help helpers for each other right well i mean the woman being a helper for a man a man like taking on responsibilities to lead provide protect for his wife and everything else but like there's commitments that you're making to this other individual that center around in the first instance obviously like producing offspring so then when you think about that as it relates to like two sodomites getting married or you think about that related to like a you know mentally retarded person getting married then you you are asking basic questions like one can they consent to it and two can they like can they agree to the project but two can they hold up their part right and so i mean in that kind of arrangement i mean we had people commenting on that say hey yeah my grandparent or my parents were one of them was retarded or something like that and i was raised by my grandparents it's like well then your grandparents were your parents right oh they were saying they were saying they're yeah okay yeah i'm they were saying one of their parents was mentally retarded and then they were and then they were raised by but they were raised by their grandparents because they couldn't be raised by their true parents and man everyone knows if you just stop and think about what you're even talking about for a few minutes that's what is going to happen at a certain level right like at a certain level that's what's going to happen you have a person who you're going to be in a more adult than they are you know by the time you're seven years old right like eight years old you're going to be more of an adult i mean and so that isn't even bringing see so most people when they hear the question they're not even thinking along those lines they're just thinking about like sensitivity issues inclusive like inclusion kind of issues and then you know like the uh pro -life kind of arguments where we don't want to be individuals who are advocating for eugenics or whatever else and so like yeah i don't think you should kill like be kill a retarded child mm -hmm because we have the technology to see if they have written down syndrome or something like that but that doesn't mean that that their life is going to be the same as everyone else's life so i don't think you should kill their life but that doesn't mean that i mean there's obviously a lot of things about life that they're not going to be able to participate in right in certain commitments they're not going to be able to make and they're not i mean you are taking on in doing so and rightly you're rightly taking like i mean you accept whatever god gives you and you love whatever god gives you like that's not even the point you know but like the issue is like yes they're going to be your child forever that's what's happening right so then the idea of them having children that means that whatever their children are they're your children they're not their children they're your children like because someone's gonna have to figure out how to raise like these people that are produced by people who were unable to raise them right and that's a very real concern for sure well and it seems like people people already have these lines drawn out just not drawn out at marriage right so i mean you wouldn't it's it's sort of like the the have you seen all the dei stuff around um around all of the various airlines lately where they the the airline company will put out their video of all of the the you know men dressed in drag and the quote -unquote you know the trannies or uh you know black women or whatever all dancing and and prancing around and you know the company's the company's basically saying look at how inclusive we are look look we've got all these people doing doing they're flying the plane or they're doing this or they're performing maintenance on the plane or whatever and then and then recently it seems like you've seen a bit of a an uptick in in terms of like critical failures with airplanes lately and and you just kind of start to one you kind of start to wonder hey maybe that you know maybe we're not putting the most qualified people sure in here and we're letting we're letting physical appearance and all these other factors uh factor in more than more than we really should and and i think people probably have a similar you know similar approach when it comes to mentally retarded people i mean you know there's plenty of things you wouldn't have them doing right not like totally unrelated to mirrors just general you know um you know like like it i've never i've never seen a mentally retarded doctor right have you have you no yeah i mean i mean why well because you know being a doctor especially in our day and age is a pretty hard thing to do and there's a there's a lot of learning involved there's a lot of studying memorization and then not just that but then oftentimes there's a lot of like fine motor skills that you have to have to depending on what type of doctor you're going to become and so there's all these factors that go into it and they just aren't able to do the job and then even if they were even if they were able to make it all the way through i doubt they would have anyone hire them unless it unless it was through some dei program or whatever but but there's a reason for that right and and any normal person who's upset at us asking the question should mentally retarded people get married any any person who's upset with us for asking that question is going to say yeah i'm not going to go to the mentally retarded doctor no i i don't think they should go to med school like they shouldn't like that's just not what they need to do um and so people have this line drawn they just don't have it drawn probably where it needs to be is that fair yeah i mean everyone knows there are limits to what certain people can do and right so this just kind of reduces to a sentimentality kind of discussion at this point yeah it just it yeah it that's all that's happening so you just you ask the question people get offended and then people get offended and then you know it just turns into uh you're not really even thinking about what you're saying here at this point it turns into an emotion festival yeah right pretty much uh so so going back to the topic question and i think you kind of alluded to this but i wanted i wanted to hear more about it and your mind when you're when you're looking at this question should mentally retarded people get married and you're asking yourself hey you know number one um are they able to consent to the marriage right number two are they are they able to reason you know do we think that reasonably they can they can fulfill these vows that they're willing to consent to so those are kind of the two criteria that have to be met and your mind is this is the answer to the question can they get married is that like a blanket yes or no or is that a well it depends you know like like can't you know can some mentally retarded people be able to one consent and to fulfill or is it like a either they all can or they all can't i mean i had a uh i had a friend who went to seminary with me and he he explained to me that he used to be mentally retarded but then okay they strained it out of them okay i don't know that i've heard that one before i mean i i think at a certain point there's like a there's a line that's a little bit fussy okay so i mean he was obviously not what he was he was probably on the border borderline of that kind of thing but he was able i don't know if i'd be willingly volunteering to share all that with everyone maybe or close and you're just airing out all of his all the dirty laundry i mean but he was able to finish seminary so i mean he had some i mean it wasn't you know it wasn't you would you wouldn't it wasn't what you would think so i mean i think um i mean there's obviously like thresholds and testing and you know that isn't always accurate and precise and you know these i mean there's iq spectrum you know where you have people who are borderline in that way you know so so i mean there's obviously a big a wide spectrum here so if you were to talk about if you were to use like a meaningful category like severely retarded or something like that i mean you can imagine um i mean there are people and i've i've had uh you know people um in my family who took care of individuals who were severely retarded i mean they don't they can't even they don't know who you are yeah like they they um they're basically functioning i mean at a certain level they're fun they're almost indistinguishable from an animal like in terms of their mental ability and mental capacity in that way you know so like i mean this it can get really bad you see i'm saying yeah yeah so like there's there's obviously some kind of spectrum of mental capacity here that you're operating under but yeah i think when it gets to the point where a person couldn't even consent to marriage that would be a clearly a no right and then i would think though that there are some people who can function in society i mean i think if they could function in society somewhat independently they're borderline in certain ways and you're just in a little bit of a different category at that point but um but yeah i mean i i think it's going to be hard for them to get married anyways and i wouldn't be the one actively pushing them into that kind of thing right so like so yeah i it really just it does depend on what we're talking about for sure right are you able to fulfill the duties and responsibilities of marriage i would think with under the normal meaning of these terms the answer would probably be probably not right you would would probably like under the normal meaning that everyone would understand not my seminary friend kind of thing the normal meaning of these terms most people would understand that you know at a certain point you're not able to fulfill the duties and responsibilities of marriage and whenever that is then yeah this isn't really for you you're you know you're more in that unit category at that point but then if you can have it trained out of you then have at it i guess it's good it works at that point so okay last question i'll ask you what about a situation where uh you have two people that are already married and then one of them has some kind of accident or you know some injury that essentially reduces them to like that category of mentally retarded so so when they first got married everyone was normal at some point during the marriage one of them had the injury that has you know reduced their mental capacity significantly in that kind of scenario are we talking about a hey the marriage is no longer valid now because you can't you know like you're yeah i mean you've already consented but then it's not like you understand that now and then number two you definitely can't fulfill all of the vows that you made at this point so is the marriage then forfeit or you know is it a situation where you know hey all those two requirements were already met and now you just had an unforeseen circumstance happen and you know the marriage but the marriage is still valid at that point yeah i mean this is a you know for better for worse until death do we part kind of commitment that you're making in that way so there's a lot of tragedies that people can undergo that can lead them into a situation where they made certain commitments and now they're unable to fulfill those commitments so yeah if a man can't provide it doesn't you know if a man you know refused to provide for his own household he's abandoned the faith he's worse than an unbeliever i mean what do you do if you you're in the african tribe and you know they come and chop all your arms and legs off because you're a christian at that point i mean obviously you haven't denied the faith and are worse than the believer you've been persecuted for righteousness sake and your reward is going to be great in heaven so obviously you can't like this isn't a matter of you refusing to fulfill your responsibilities this is a matter of you being unable to be held to normal standards anymore on the basis of disability at that point so i mean the same thing happens here like the same thing is happening along these lines so and this is just these are categories that people need to get in their mind like meaning that you know there's a vast difference between signing up for a job that you can't fulfill and then signing up for a job that you can fulfill and then tragedy strikes and then you're no longer able to fulfill it like so like the issue is no one sets out to build a without counting costs right to see if you have the resources so everyone should think about these things going into marriage meaning like you're making certain commitments that you should be taking seriously like the nature of what your commitment commitments are but then yeah i mean the person who because tragedy strikes they're no longer able to keep those commitments that doesn't invalidate the commitments that they made it's just you just you're just in a situation where now you know life for you as the woman married to the invalid man is or you know the guy man in the coma is that you're you've signed up to take care of him for the rest of his life and you're bound to him for the rest of his life now you're a caregiver you don't have a normal husband wife relationship anymore but that's part of god's sovereignty as part of his providence and you should accept you know even the hard things from him knowing that they have a purpose for you in that way so yeah i mean that's a marriage it is a marriage but then there's a vast difference between signing up for something that knowing you can't fulfill it and you know signing up for some for something with just living in a fallen world and you can't predict everything that's going to happen in perpetuity forever okay all right well i think that's a good place for us to um wrap up the conversation on so thank you tim for answering all my questions with that uh we appreciate you guys supporting us weekend and week out we appreciate the interaction we get online with these polls and this is one of those questions that you know it's it started out as a poll we asked it on twitter and got a bunch of votes and we like to get y 'all's feedback because then it kind of helps us in terms of you know 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