Dr. Everett Piper on Wokeness in the Wesleyan Tradition

Well, good morning everyone. We're live now on the conversations that matter podcast and it is a beautiful day where I am

I hope that you're enjoying the the last of summer I mean, it's kind of transitioning here in New York from summer to fall it just starting

But we still got 90 degrees on some of the days this week. So anyway, I'm looking forward to To getting out and doing some summer things

We have an important topic though to talk about today and as many of you know if you listen to this podcast for long enough,

I do cover a lot of the social justice incursions that are made in evangelicalism and We've covered various denominations traditions organizations that have been infiltrated and I try to trace down how they've been infiltrated

What were the tactics that were used? what should our response be as Christians who are

Orthodox in our theology who are conservative politically because we're conservative theologically and I have the privilege today

I don't know why I haven't had him on sooner, but we have dr. Everett Piper with us. Dr.

Everett Piper Is a contributor to the Washington Times. He's written a few books

Not a daycare is his most popular one. You can go to dr Everett Piper comm if you want to purchase those books or find out more about him

And we're gonna talk a little bit about the Wesleyan tradition because that's where dr Piper comes from and he's been

We'll say at the in the upper echelons of an institution in that tradition. So Thank you.

Dr. Piper. Thank you for joining me. Oh, I'm honored to be on your show. Thanks for asking me I think many of the people who are watching

My podcast or listening have probably seen or at least know about enemies within the church and you were featured in that documentary and some of the things you said

I just was not familiar with I think I come from more of a Reformed fundamentalist ish background and Outside the

Wesleyan tradition though. I actually do have some cousins who are Methodist ministers, but it just we didn't pay attention as much

What was happening and some of the things you said I thought were just startling you talk about a grant in the documentary that you were

Offered for I think it was a million dollars that you turned down Because of it was tied to some

I guess wokeness or social justice So I want to get into some of that and trace down what's going on in the

Wesleyan tradition But before we do I think for the viewers sake because I know I needed help with this initially.

What is the Wesleyan tradition? Well, that's a that's a good question because as president of Oklahoma Wesleyan University I was often asked are you the same as Texas Wesleyan or Kansas Wesleyan or?

Illinois Wesleyan or Dakota Wesleyan and the list went on and the answer is no Except we would be cousins at the family reunion

I suppose if you want to look at it that way The quickest way for me to describe the Wesleyan tradition is to go back to John and Charles Wesley of the mid 1700s

Many of you even if you're in a Reformed Church are singing Charles Wesley hymns frequently well, who are the

Wesley brothers John and Charles Wesley chart challenged the Church of England because Arguably they would have said the

Church of England in the 1700s had its orthodoxy, right? But it didn't have its orthopraxy.

In other words, they weren't practicing what they preached So the Wesley brothers rose up and said you can't separate head from heart or belief from behavior

You can't separate public life from religious life. You have to be a unified Holistic Christian you have to be a person of integrity

You should integrate all of your Christian life and your Christian beliefs into one

Christian being so the Wesley brothers started what was called the Methodist movement.

Well, what was that at that time? It was the methods of holy living They believe not that nobody in the

Wesleyan tradition the Methodist tradition were arguing that you're saved by works But they believed that as Jesus said if you love me

You will obey me or as even Dietrich Bonhoeffer a couple centuries later said only those who believe

Obey and only those who obey believe so that there's this mandate this call As the epistle of James that faith without works is dead.

So it's by grace that you're saved through faith It's not of your let selves lest a man should boast But part of the

Christian life is a holiness life a life of sanctification becoming increasingly obedient unto the

Lord The Wesley brothers started the methods of holy living the Methodist movement.

It's interesting in the first phase of that movement That was a pejorative term that was put on them by their adversaries It was kind of like liberals calling you or me a fundamentalist today as if that's a bad thing believing in the fundamentals

You get my point. So the word was pejorative in the first place But it really became almost an identifier of who they were in terms of I you know holiness unto the

Lord But as you fast forward as all denominations ultimately go they lose their way

So by the Civil War a hundred years later the Methodist movement was not taking a stand at least in the

United States was not taking a stand for Abolition of slavery or for allowing the poor in the church.

So at the time Many churches were charging for their pews So if you paid a higher dollar in terms of your tithe or you gave a major contribution to the to the church you could sit in the pew of your choice and therefore the poor were excluded from sitting in the church and Then of course slavery blacks weren't welcome

Well, the Methodists at the time weren't taking a stand against that in the United States So out of that movement the

Methodist movement arose more conservative movement that believed that the Bible was very clear that a black person is a human being and that the

Port the poor should be able to sit in the church any place they want The Nazarene Church the

Free Methodist Church and the Wesleyan Church Denomination sprung out of that movement of the

Civil War. So we have this abolitionist history in our DNA But we were all biblical we believed in the inerrancy of the scriptures and held tenaciously to that and believed that Christians should

Behave in the public square like Christians again integrating your orthodoxy with your orthopraxy

So that that's a rich and I would argue positive aspect of the Wesleyan tradition But the irony and I think what we're going to talk about today is we're losing our way again we're starting to slip and we're starting to argue for more of an existential view an experiential view an emotional view of what

Christianity should be in the public square as opposed to the reason and the rationality and the clarity of Scripture the inerrancy of the word so Nazarenes are they would be

Wesleyan Methodists or Wesleyan what other are there other major denominations that you would

Tag as Wesleyan. Well define major there. You have smaller holiness denominations.

The Free Methodist Denomination is not United Methodist now the interesting thing here

John is that many of us myself included kind of recoil when you start equating us with the

Contemporary United Methodist Church because we all know what they're going through, right? Right. I would raise my hand quickly as the former president of Oklahoma Wesleyan and say we're not

Methodist, right? Because we believe in the Bible. We are inerrantists.

We believe in the inerrancy of Scripture We don't have gay and lesbian parades on our campus and you're not gonna find a

Raidenbow flag on our home page on our University website so there's a difference between a

Wesleyan and a Methodist even though if you had a family reunion of all of the great -great -grandchildren of John and Charles Wesley, we'd be the

Conservative cousins in the tent if you will Nazarenes Wesleyans Free Methodist Pilgrim Holiness United Brethren in Christ some of these denominations all would have common heritage and we're actually

We overlap a little bit with the assembly of God. So I was gonna ask you a similar tradition Yeah, I was gonna ask if some of the

Pentecostal Traditions and the assembly of God in particular would be considered that so So it is broad and and of course, you know

PC a members be Presbyterian Church and America members would not want to be Lopped in with the

PC USA people. So I totally understand what you're talking about there alright, so This tradition as I think you've rightly described was

Initially with John and Charles Wesley a move back towards personal piety taking the Bible seriously things that we would think overall would hedge against Threats I suppose to orthodoxy heterodoxy and And what we see now is in all denominations

It's not just the Wesleyan tradition is social justice is really challenging this political movement

Orthodox beliefs and in a subversive way and you sent me a long

Just just a lot of notes that you took on What kind of happened from your vantage point in the

Wesleyan tradition and and how? Especially I would say some of the more aggressive stuff the LGBT stuff started coming in So so I am curious.

I think everyone's probably curious to hear you talk about how did that? fundamentally anti -biblical

Understanding get introduced and why was it at least somewhat accepted by some in and where was it accepted?

Was it the educational institutions? Was it in the churches themselves? How did this come in? Well as an educator,

I'm always going to be quick to point out that what's caught Excuse me That is what is taught in the classroom

Today is going to be practiced in your culture in your church in your courtrooms in your living room tomorrow. So education matters.

I Even the responsibility as an educator to say colleges and universities and seminaries are greatly to blame when you start dumbing down the definition of Scripture when you start watering down your doctrinal statement

Which the Wesleyan church the Wesleyan denomination still declares in its discipline in its official doctrinal statement that we are in Errantists we believe in the inerrancy of Scripture and all the original 66 documents period

Okay, similar to what I assume you would say in terms of your view of Scripture Now the interesting thing is a couple of the other holiness denominations

For example, the Nazarene Church says that they believe in inerrancy, but then they qualify it in matters of salvation

Okay. Now there's a huge difference between those two statements on inerrancy And I think anybody can understand the huge difference there in if you say you believe in inerrancy and then you qualify it in matters of salvation that leaves a lot of stuff in the

Bible that you can say is culturally or socially Relative for a given time and place etc.

And then you can start having these arguments for Political and social justice that I would argue are outside the boundaries of biblical definition so there's a difference between the inerrancy claim of one holiness denomination the

Wesleyan Church and the inerrancy claim of another holiness Denomination the Nazarene Church, even though we've had ongoing discussions and I would argue they're even still taking place at this time of merging as one church one denomination in fact, let me tell you this quick story when

I was on the board of trustees for the Wesleyan Church International I was on the board of about 30 board members

There was a robust conversation in one board meeting about five or six years ago

About the potential of the Nazarenes and the Wesleyans merging into one Holiness Church one denomination because we are so close in our theological beliefs our doctrinal beliefs we all are

Methodist in heritage were holiness in tradition and in belief. We're Biblically faithful we argue but yet there are two

Definitions in those two denominations about Scripture So when we were having this debate on the floor in a board meeting for the

Wesleyan Church I raised my hand and I said, excuse me if we merge which definition of Scripture are we going to use?

there was silence you could hear a pin drop and then finally a Senior leader in the church who was a former general superintendent, which is the highest position you can hold within the

Wesleyan Church Looked at me and said we consider the difference to be insignificant.

I Didn't even have to say anything. I just looked raised my eyebrows a little bit and said

The difference is insignificant now when we when we stopped to have a break in that board meeting

I had several people come up to me and say we did Not even know that the two denominations had different statements on Scripture But we went and googled it after you said that oh my goodness

So part of it is ignorance people don't know even leaders of the church didn't know there were two different descriptions definitions of Scripture Two definitions of inerrancy there are hugely different Because if you say the

Bible is only inerrant when it comes to salvation through Jesus Christ alone great I agree with that statement that salvation is only through Jesus Christ alone

But what about all the other stuff you're gonna take off the table and say well that's social or that's cultural right,

I would argue that's dangerous because now you've watered down the definition of Scripture to the point where you don't have to comply with a

Ton of stuff that you find in the Gospels the Epistles or even the Old Testament. Yeah.

Well that That's amazing to me. I didn't actually know that I know you're aware I did a episode

I don't know a week ago on the Nazarenes and some of the compromises And so I had no clue though that that was

I thought they had a more solid statement on inerrancy I assume that I suppose and maybe a lot of the people in that board meeting assume that Are you bringing that up to I mean?

That is an obvious weak point. Are you telling us though that the Nazarene Church was the first to adopt some of these

LGBT? Friendly ideas because of that. Well, I think I don't think you can separate the two things if your view of Scripture Opens up the door for you to start talking about various different things

With regard to the Christian life as being cultural and being social constructs rather than biblical mandates

Then you're going to get there. You're going to end up at the place We are now with regard to the rainbow agenda the

LGBTQIA agenda because You have a you have a ministry in the

Nazarene Church right now called LGBTQ love wins All right at the 2017

General Conference for the Nazarene Church. There was a rainbow colored booth With that label on the booth promoting their ministry

Now they claim that they're not promoting a homosexual lifestyle

But what they do overtly say is that they believe Inside be Christianity that you can be a homosexual

Christian You can hyphenate your Christianity with your sexual preference your sexual proclivities

And I would argue that's unbiblical Where in the Bible does it tell you to hyphenate your Christianity that you are a gay

Christian? You're a bi Christian. You're a trans Christian Where does it tell you in the Bible to hyphenate your Christianity by any of your proclivities or your inclinations to sin?

That you're a lying Christian or that you're in a gluttonous Christian or you're a greedy Christian No, the

Bible does not tell us to hyphenate our Christianity our identity with our sins It tells us to confess our sins and to repent of them not to identify

With them and make that part and parcel of who we are Again of all the denominations that should understand what

I'm saying right now. It should be the holiness denominations which have always stood for practicing what you claim to believe

For unifying head and heart fact and faith belief and behavior into a sanctified life of holiness unto the

Lord You do not hyphenate your Christian identity with your inclinations your habits your appetites or your libido

Your holiness is unto the Lord not to your libido. Am I is that clear? Absolutely.

Absolutely and amen and and that was in 2017 you said I think and That so we're talking now.

This is three years before 2020. This is When I would argue it probably didn't have to do this, right maybe there's more pressure now there was pressure then but I mean we gay marriage quote -unquote hadn't even been

Approved by the Supreme Court until what two years before this so, you know, this is kind of early in my mind

And and so I didn't know this this makes sense of the direction though. The Nazarene Church has been going

Was was this kind of out of nowhere was their opposition to it was I mean did it create a stirred?

It was just kind of ho -hum. There's a booth Well, I had a see I'm not again people need to understand.

I'm not Nazarene I'm well, but the two denominations are very very close as I've described close enough that we're always talking about mergers and Pragmatically, why not?

Why not merge the resources of these two relatively small denominations of a you know half a million to a million members nationwide

Merge them together Stop wasting your resources if you actually believe teach preach and practice the same thing, but there are differences as I've identified so I had a friend that was attending that 2017 general conference of the

Nazarene Church in Indianapolis and he took a picture of their LGBTQ loved ones booth and sent it to me and I thought oh my land

So I posted it on Facebook and I said of again I repeated some of the things I'm saying to you on the show

Right now I said of all the denominations that should understand that this is not right. This is unholy. This is unbiblical

This is not Christian that you don't define yourself by your sinful Inclinations that you define yourself by your

Lord not your libido the holiness denominations should understand that and then I Finished my little rant on Facebook by saying

John and Charles are rolling over in their grave Over 2 ,000 people chimed in and responded to that Which in my world is a substantial number of people taking taking notice paying attention to a

Facebook post Now the interesting thing is the by far the greatest majority of those 2 ,000 people were negative

There were Nazarene youth pastors and other Nazarene head pastors and there were Wesleyan youth pastors and Wesleyan head pastors chiming in and saying you're being uncharitable you're being unfair and For a variety of reasons so it in it resulted in a long debate on Facebook which

I think was very healthy for the holiness denominations to engage in and Basically those notes that I shared with you which are lengthy come down to this basic fact.

Do we define ourselves as Christians? Do we define ourselves by our desires or as 2nd

Corinthians 517 says when you are in Christ? You're a new creation behold. The old is gone. The new has come.

Are you transformed in Christ? Or are you transgender gendered? Are you a gay

Christian a by Christian which Andy McGee the director of the ministry for the Nazarene Church called?

LGBTQ a loved ones Andy McGee the ordained pastor for that church

Defines himself as a by Christian a bisexual Christian Now that's not what we're called to do in the epistles or in the

Gospels or anywhere in the Bible You are to be born again. You're not supposed to just be too easily satisfied with being born that way

Isn't the message from Christ to Paul to James to John to Jude to Peter aren't those?

Aren't those messages found in Scripture consistent in terms of dying to self being dead in our sins

Born again raised in Christ a new creation in the Lord And I would argue that the entire agenda of the side be

Christianity ignores the fact that You don't celebrate your inclinations to sin you confess them because that's our obligation as followers of Christ We have someone in the chat who

Brett says that if one follows what is happening at Indiana Wesleyan University You'll know that John and Charles Wesley have been spinning in their graves for a very long time now a graduate 1982 of Indiana Wesleyan University So he's saying

I guess back in the 80s there were problems That John Charles Wesley wouldn't have approved at that particular institution

Now you were at the time in 2017 were you still at Oklahoma Wesleyan?

Yes, I was the president of Oklahoma Wesleyan from 2002 to 2019 so there's cross -pollination

I'm assuming between the Nazarenes and the Wesleyans as far as you know pastors from maybe Oklahoma Wesleyan our

Graduates are gonna go into a Nazarene church that kind of thing. Oh, absolutely. Absolutely great deal of like you said cross -pollination.

Yes. Okay, so So so I can imagine when you

Made this stir online that that this was seen as a big deal that you were a heavy hitter

For not just the Wesleyans but actually people in the Nazarene denomination who were going to your school for education

What kind of pressure did that put on you making that public stand? well

Maybe you can already figure out from just just this brief interview. I really don't care. I know that isn't

That isn't the way I run my life nor is it the way I led as a university president

I've always had the attitude you run into the face of the storm. You don't run away from yeah But just real quick, but most guys that am

I and now I don't know what your experience has been but in mine Most guys do bend to that pressure.

You're rare and the people who don't are rare So so I think it's helpful to know what kind of pressure comes on someone for taking these stands

Just because the expectation I have is most guys are gonna kind of cave or at least try to you know

Figure out a cut a deal Well, that may be true, but I'll I'll be very clear here shame on them if they do it's there's a time

There's a time within all Cultural movements where Christians have to be clear be bold It's like they used to say when you went and bought your first flat -screen

TV go big or go home And I believe that that holds true in terms of our Christian testimony

I'm not saying be a jerk or be abrasive or be condescending or rude but you have to be clear and you have to be biblical if you're going to wave the banner of Christ and if you're not

Going to do that with courage and conviction then My respect wanes and I and I think you're going to find that you turn around and find very few people following you because you're

Not leading in a clear direction The sidebar when I took over Oklahoma Wesleyan University in 2002

It was near bankruptcy and I made up my mind right then and there we were gonna wave the banner for the truth of Christ And the truth of Scripture we were gonna speak boldly and unapologetically about inerrancy the primacy of Jesus Christ the priority of Scripture the pursuit of truth and the practice of wisdom

Jesus is the Son of God the Bible's the Word of God truth is given by God It's not made up by you or me and wisdom sanctification holiness obedience is demanded by God.

It's not optional I talked about those things incessantly and the irony was I had an Indiana Wesleyan theology professor who accused me of being a closet

Baptist because I was talking about those things too much and my response was if That makes me a closet

Baptist and our denomination is in a lot of trouble because nothing I said is outside the bounds of biblical orthodoxy and by the way

Our Wesleyan discipline says we believe in the objectivity of truth that truth is revealed by God not a postmodern

Construct of man and it also says that we believe in inerrancy all 66 original documents

So, how am I a closet X for saying those things? Everything I just said is Wesleyan now you can tell the way

I chose to deal with that Confrontation is to just speak the truth with conviction and clarity and guess what happened.

He went away Okay, he went away because how can you argue with what I just said?

So if you're a biblically driven pastor or lay person right now listening to this particular podcast

Grow a spine Have some courage wave the banner if you win waving the banner of Jesus Christ if you win waving the banner of the truth of Scripture and truth

Of Christ great God's grace if you lose waving that banner who cares go down fighting be willing to do so That is true leadership.

And guess what? God doesn't have to bless that. I'm not a name -it -claim -it guy I don't believe in that the theological angle

But he can choose to bless it if he wants to Oklahoma Wesleyan went from bankruptcy to financial solvency

We were ranked by Bain as one of the top 20th 20 but we were in the top 20 % in the nation in terms of financial viability for academic institutions in the nation why

Because we stood for something we were willing to say we are Christian and this is how you define

Christianity You find it in the Bible. It's not complicated That's who we are

And if you want to come and get an education within those parameters come here because you're not gonna find it at very many other

Places anyway, that's a pitch that you didn't ask for but it is a commentary on leadership

I think well is does that hold true even now that you're not the president are there

Is that the school you'd recommend for aspiring pastors in these denominations?

Um, my successor is is not buying into the woke agenda He's not as aggressive as I am the pendulum swings.

I get that I think it's an institution you should look at but I also think you should be a informed consumer and recognize that the

Wesleyan Church the Nazarene Church, the Free Methodist Church is having a conversation about social justice a

Conversation about side B Christianity, they're having a conversation about Critical race theory, etc.

I think anytime you find a sponsoring denomination that's having conversations about those things rather than confronting them you need to you need to do a lot of homework before you write a check and decide to go there and I would say that about a

Baptist school a Non -denominational school a Nazarene school a Free Methodist school, etc. I think all of the schools are

Tempted to get into what's popular rather than being what's right? What you just described

I think would have been also true in 2017 as far as having that side B discussion now

Though it seems like the Nazarenes they're having a discussion about whether gay marriage is acceptable, right?

So they're farther down the path and it's only been a few years And so we can see where this train goes once you start opening that door

Who's to say that you can't take it all the way and who's to say in another five years? They won't have transgender.

Maybe they already do debates going on So so if this starts as you kind of suggested at least at the beginning in the educational institutions

I don't know how the accountability works for a place like Oklahoma Wesleyan. Let's say What can layman like because I'm sure that's probably gonna be the primary audience here are gonna be layman in the

Wesleyan Church in the Nazarene Church who want to do something. They don't want their denominations going to pot

But what can they do? I Need well, first of all, you need to be informed Staying engaged with podcasts such as yours reading make sure you understand what's really going on Be aware that Christian colleges and evangelical churches are being challenged right now

Here here's another story that I think is pertinent to your question. So Right after Obergefell was made the law of the land that literally the day after I Was the president of Oklahoma Wesleyan at the time?

I received a letter from the president of the Council for Christian Colleges and Universities the CCCU Now if people don't know almost every evangelical

Christian College in the nation is a member of the CCCU Whether it's Baptist or whether it's

Nazarene rather. It's free Methodist rather. It's Westland rather it's non -denominational like Taylor or Biola or John Brown University or Wheaton College all of these

Universities Christian schools are members of the Council for Christian Colleges and Universities about a hundred and fifty institutions strong In theory, you could go to any of those schools and go to a biblically grounded evangelical

Christian University Okay I get a letter from the president out of Washington DC of the

Council for Christian Colleges and Universities Her name's Shirley Hoekstra the day after Obergefell and the letter says

I'm letting you know that two of our member institutions Goshen College and Eastern Mennonite University have decided that because of Obergefell they're going to immediately start hiring married homosexual faculty and staff

We said tonight. Yeah, we says Shirley Hoekstra the president of the

CCCU need to have a Conversation about this and what we're gonna do as an organization.

I Called dr. Hoekstra on the phone. I remember it as clear as this conversation I had my phone to my ear and I'm pacing around my pool in my backyard during the summer

I said dr. Hoekstra where in the Bible does it tell us to have a conversation about sin?

Last I knew when I read my Bible it said confess our sins not have a conversation about them

I said until you reverse course on this We're out. We are going to withdraw our membership from the

CCC you They have not reversed course They are having that on going

Conversation and I would argue that anytime you start talking about something as if it's an open ish an open issue for debate

You sooner or later are going to embrace that issue as acceptable within the body of Christ Acceptable acceptable within the church and where are we?

Obergefell was what was it 2015 16 15? Yeah 15 So here we are from 2015 and today and we have these evangelical holiness churches and Baptist churches and Presbyterian churches and non -denominational

Denominational colleges and churches having Conversations about side B Christianity and whether or not they should ordain gay pastors.

They should officiate Homosexual weddings and rather or not you're going to embrace transgenderism within the church that's an excellent point because I think that is the temptation.

I know I even have had that where The it seems so innocuous. Let's have a conversation.

How could that be threatening? How could that right? and in the assumption is that both sides are committed to truth and we're gonna figure it out somehow and Truth is gonna prevail and that's just not the case

At least the pattern we've seen is when you start using the conversation language There's some people involved in that conversation who have their minds made up They they are using it as a tool to then get to the next level

Which is let's have a conversation about I guess whether you should be allowed to continue in your job since you oppose same -sex marriage it becomes more aggressive and We have several people that are chiming in.

I'm just a little we have Micah here saying that his experience at Indiana Wesleyan University from 2016 to 2020 was was pretty bad

I guess there was CRT stuff and LGBT stuff Barb Johnson says the

Nazarene Church We left at a board member who was not sure if abortion was wrong The youth pastor was then full supporter of BLM.

I mean does any of this surprise you I'm assuming it doesn't no No, because it's been going on for for decades if this isn't just the last 10 years

Let me I hope it's not boring. Let me give you another story. Yeah, please Um, all right

I was doing my doctoral work at Michigan State University when I worked at a free Methodist school my alma mater Spring Harbor University In Spring Harbor, Michigan an evangelical school.

It changed my life. I'm very proud of much of what Spring Harbor stands for but I recognized at the time that there was there were conversations going on within the free

Methodist Church and evangelical Christianity that Seemed to me to be outside the boundaries of the very definition of evangelical

Christianity so the topic of my dissertation at Michigan State was Evangelical Christianity, what does it mean in the minds of the constituent holders the customers if you will of An evangelical

Christian College now, don't let your eyes get crossed over I'm not gonna bore you with all my research and analysis, but I'm going to share with you the opening page of my dissertation and Bear with me.

I'm going to quote something that's gonna be very offensive. So grant me some latitude here. It's a quote It's not language.

I would use all right a Student walks into my office a couple days after new student orientation started there at Spring Harbor College I was the

Dean of Students. I was the VP for student affairs at the time. He walked into my office brand -new student

He was angry He looked me in the eye and he said you told me a couple days ago during new student orientation that this was an evangelical

Christian school I'm angry and I said indeed I did what's the problem?

He said well today I went to my first class my English class and The professor asked a question and I didn't know the answer to the question

So she confronted me in front of the entire class and she said and here's my quote

Jesus Christ, don't you understand the answer to the question? I Looked at that student and I said, are you serious?

He said yes, that's a direct quote Hmm I called up the

Provost at the time at that at my alma mater Spring Harbor University I said we got a problem an

English professor just confronted a student and said This to the student in response to his ignorance of a question

The Provost said well ever you need to understand that some people of that given denomination. This particular professor wasn't free

Methodist She was of a different denomination Don't consider that to be cursing What in the world

So the opening page in my dissertation is basically asking this question Have we come to the point and time and place in evangelical

Christianity where we don't even understand that using the Lord's name in vain is wrong and that some denominations don't consider that to be cursing and Even if that's true some denominations don't think that's cursing

Why are you hiring those people at an evangelical institution that should think that's cursing? Okay With that you would think the weaker brought you'd at least even even if they thought that they would you know help acquiesce to the weaker brother or something, but That's so my whole dissertation was on.

What is the definition of evangelical? That's crazy Do we have a definition when it comes to sexual morality?

Do we have a definition when it comes to biblical understanding the definition of Scripture? Do we have an understanding when it comes to rather you use the

Lord's name in vain or you don't do we have? basic common -sense Bottom -line understandings that define the evangelical

Christian and my dissertation argues back in 1999 that we were already losing that definition to the extent where an evangelical

Christian school Could defend a professor who was using Jesus's name in vain

I'm glad that you're bringing some of this out because I've noticed a trend with some young zoomer I suppose

Christians who are pretty motivated With this the next generation seems to be they at least the conservatives and the

Christians They don't accept the nonsense quite as much probably because they've grown up with Broken homes and lesbian parents and you know, all the things that they've grown up with they see some of the problems so they want to go back to the drawing board and That's what you're bringing out is you can't go to 2015 and say let's figure out where we went wrong

You have to go back before that and say Okay, it wasn't even about LGBT stuff there were other things that paved the way for that What were those things and and of course, you know treating the

Lord in such a cavalier casual fashion I would think would be one why would we listen to Jesus's commands if he's just a

Word we exclaim when we are disgusted or surprised about something, right? So so I'm glad that you're bringing that out.

I do have a question So just to relate to you for a moment. I know we have different stories, but and my roots are not as deep in the

Southern Baptist Convention, but I Had a heritage going back to the founding of the

Southern Baptist Convention And my dad was the one who kind of left Southern Baptist churches He broke that tradition in the 80s when they were fighting over Inerrancy and evolution and all these things.

He just said, you know, he just left He went to a different church and then non -denominational from that point forward.

I Knew about this and I also thought there was some good positive things I thought for example, I was really a fan of Al Mohler for a while.

I thought the briefing was great I thought Al Mohler is gonna really bring the Southern Baptist Convention into a more conservative and Orthodox kind of tone and so I went to a

Southern Baptist school With the intention of getting involved in the Southern Baptist Convention and of course while I'm there social justice, right?

And it's rampant. It is it is systemic so I I've of course,

I'm not at a Southern Baptist Church now but I I did feel and I think I feel this more broadly than just the

Southern Baptist like like like Who was it? Was it I forget who the politician who said like the

Democratic Party didn't leave I didn't leave a Democratic Party. It left me. I forget who said that Reagan might have was it

Reagan? I think it was Ronald Reagan So so I feel that way a little bit about like the Southern Baptist about the broader evangelical movement

I feel like I didn't change like I didn't but what where's my tribe? Where are my people and of course they're sitting there in pews across the country, but at the institutional level

There's very little I can relate to and I imagine you feel that way maybe even more so. I mean, what do you?

How do you relate to the Wesleyan denomination? What? Expectations do you have for the future of the

Wesleyan denomination? I mean, are you putting any stock in that or do you think it's a lost cause, you know?

And you're finding somewhere else to congregate and and find people that share something in common with you Well, I think like any denomination

You're gonna have some people that are biblical and conservative. They're still within the denomination They're fighting the good fight to try to reclaim the high ground and redeem that particular church movement

And that's certainly true for Nazarenes and it's certainly true for Wesleyans and free Methodist Baptist Presbyterian I mean isn't the isn't that the history of the church you have people that choose to leave and you have people that choose to stay and fight and I think both

Decisions can be defended if you choose to leave because you want sound biblical teaching and you're given church

Your local church isn't providing that then bless you. That's probably the right thing to do

But if you choose to stay within that church and fight That's a noble cause too, so I think both decisions

I think we need to honor that but within the the biblical tribe if you will of Christianity I've got many friends that have chosen to stay within the

Methodist Church, for example and fight the good fight There is they're grounded. They're biblical.

They they they know what they believe and they know why they defend the Word of God And they do so within a denomination that has some conservatives and they have many that aren't

So I think we just need to pat our brother and sister on the back if they choose to stay engaged and fight

But if you choose, I think if you choose to stay in a church, that's getting mushy, even if it's not completely apostate at this time if they're mushy on CRT if they're much mushy mushy on social justice if They want to continue to have a conversation about side

B Christianity If you stay and you're not willing to raise your hand and speak boldly about biblical truth

Then I think you're compromising yourself And I think you need to recognize time to get out and go someplace where you can get some

Good solid biblical teaching so that you don't lose your own way and your children don't lose theirs I don't know if I answered your question or not.

Yeah, I think so That's a practical thing for people who are in churches. What do you what about the future of the denomination itself?

Do you expect good things to you? I mean, no one knows the future but What do you think's gonna happen like is side

B going to become more prevalent and then from there more Sexual perversions or is it gonna go back the other way?

well you could in your story that you covered a couple weeks ago with Thomas Ord and I can't remember the pastor's name the

Nazarene pastor out in California that just got released the good news is

The district superintendent and the general superintendent of the Nazarene Church decided to terminate that pastor.

That's the good news Okay the challenging news is a lot of the leadership of the

Nazarene Church and the Wesleyan Church and the Free Methodist Church is Leaning left leaning progressive.

So from the top down you have compromises. For example when I challenged When I challenged the love wins

LGBTQ rainbow booth at the Nazarene Convention The general superintendent of the

Wesleyan Church wrote a letter essentially Condemning me for the way

I had challenged them and supporting the Nazarene Church and its leadership So now is that what

I'm saying is that from the top down the reason that you're having these Very confusing extra -biblical if not non -biblical

Conversations within a lot of each evangelicalism is there's weakness at the top Because the top should be dictating

Should be leading should be clarifying and should be defending the definition of those denominations in those churches

But if the top isn't doing that then you have difficulty and that difficulty isn't going to bear good fruit

Are there still lots of good conservative people in those denominations that want to see a return to biblical faithfulness?

absolutely, absolutely, but the If the if the head is rotten the rest of the body is going to be compromised too.

So I think the future Basically comes down to who are you going to elect? Who are you going to appoint?

Who are you going to charge with leadership of these denominations? Look at the SPC You you see it there,

I mean that's the perfect example, right you've covered it Oh, yeah, if your leadership in the

SPC is compromised then the entire movement Is confused and flounders and the

SPC has changed dramatically until in just the last five to ten years because of compromised leadership

Am I right? That's right. Yeah. Yeah, and the SPC's polity is supposedly at least it's interesting because it's it reminds me of You know the political situation in the

United States and we hear a lot about how it's so great we have democracy and individual freedom and then

You look at the reality on the ground and you wonder if you could even trust election results, right?

So the SPC also has this kind of like they're very proud about the fact that they're supposed to be from the bottom up They they meet annually and they're everything's done through this massive a body of thousands of people who are there

But the stage really this is what they don't say and what they don't recognize the stage really does control

What happens it is very easy to? persuade people If you control the microphones and you control the visuals and and who gets to be platformed and say what?

You can pretty much get the outcome you want most of the time. That's what it seems like at least Is that the same way?

I mean, I don't know how the Wesleyan Church runs their business is it similar to the SPC in that way where there's a possibility of layman showing up who are

Understanding the issues and voting the bums out or is this more? hierarchical well, the the

Wesleyan Church and the Nazarene Church would be more hierarchical than the SPC in a sense because we do have a hierarchical structure

By definition and we don't apologize for it so the autonomy that the Southern Baptist Churches have within the

SPC convention is Something that the Wesleyan Church is the Nazarene Church churches don't enjoy in terms of that type of autonomy

You have a general superintendent then you have district superintendents under the general and those district superintendents are responsible for Leading and managing their respective districts across the nation across the world with with with regard to that denomination.

So there's accountability of the pastor to the district superintendent There's accountability of the district superintendent to the general superintendent now in there in their quadrennial

Conventions the conventions that they have every four years. They have delegates. The delegates are predominantly lay individuals that have been appointed by their districts to go to that convention and those delegates can vote and are

Responsible for voting on the future in the history of the future trajectory of the church

So yes, the delegates do have authority as the final vote on where the church goes but as all

Organizations go if you're not informed if you're not educated if you don't listen to what's going on if you don't read voraciously before you get to that convention

You're gonna be led around by your nose by political motivations That's true in any denomination or any organization

I would argue if you're a delegate and you have voting authority You have to go in informed and be prepared to be unpopular if necessary Especially in our day and in our time when so many movements are unbiblical.

Yeah, good word. Good word I would just let everyone know who's in the chat box here. If you have any questions for dr

Everett Piper get them in now because we're probably gonna be landing the plane here soon. So any Questions or comments about anything that dr.

Piper has said let me know and I will be sure to feature them Dr. Piper Moving forward.

I know I'm assuming you're you're retired from being the president of colleges and that kind of thing

I mean, do you see yourself in a role other than? Doing the writing and that you're doing now maybe in the denominational life of the

Wesleyan Church or no No, no, I know. I'm not an ordained pastor. Number one, you know,

I'm a I'm one of those dastardly administrators No, I don't see myself doing that we actually attend a

Baptist Church right now when we retired I've always felt that the best thing for an ex -president to do when he leaves an institution is to die

I mean the only good ex -president is a dead one and I would say that about an ex -head pastor to get out of town get

Out of the way let your successor do his job So we changed our social and church dynamic when

I retired from Oklahoma Wesleyan so that we gave some elbow room To my successor, so we attend

Baptist Church By the way, I did decide to run for political office. I Am a county commissioner now in Osage County, Oklahoma Because I figured you know

Put your money where your mouth is you keep talking about engagement and leadership getting involved in the in the political arena the public square

Somebody called me and asked me to run for County Commissioner to clean up a bit of a mess over here in my county and I said, okay,

I'll do it I don't want the job don't need the job But I was willing to do the job for the sake of trying to make some positive progress

And maybe that's a good analogy for the way we should engage in the church to get involved I mean if you don't want to do it be willing to do it because if you don't it'll probably keep going in a negative

Direction. There's a few questions coming in plain spoken asks. Dr. Piper What role do you think

Wesleyan ism broadly has to play in the near future in America and the post -christian West?

That's the first question Well, I think the history I'm proud of the history of the

Wesleyan Church of the Wesleyan movement I'm proud that John and Charles Wesley challenged the

Church of England to stop Behaving badly. I mean, I'm narrowing that down to very non theological terms, but Christians weren't acting like Christ They weren't behaving they they claim to believe they said they had these beliefs in their head

But they hadn't transferred those beliefs into the behaviors of the heart and the hands So I think that the holiness movement rather.

It's Nazarene rather. It's Wesleyan rather. It's free Methodist assembly of God the holiness movement has a lot to bring to the table in terms of Holiness unto the

Lord and the and that message for the broader body of Christ Good good

And we have Brett he asks. I Guess I guess idea for a question. I guess this is question though,

Indiana Wesleyan University recently got a new president What are dr. Piper's impressions? Oh gosh, if any does he have of the new president?

Well, that's dangerous territory Do you know I'm not going there? Okay. Yeah, actually actually

I'll say something I know the new president and he's a good man And I think he's trying to do some good things

So I'll be positive about that. I It's hey turning an academic institution around is like turning a sinking ship around it is very difficult to do in fact

Peter Drucker the old guru of leadership that lived into his 90s if you studied any leadership theory over the last 20 30 years at the university level you read

Drucker Drucker in his later years He was giving a presentation at an Ivy League institution

Let's just call it Harvard and at the end of his presentation There was a Q &A and one kid one bright

Harvard student raised his hand and said dr. Drucker. You're the guy you've counseled Kings and Queens and prime ministers and presidents and fortune 500

CEOs about leadership Have you ever stumbled across an organization? That's impossible to lead and Drucker without missing a beat said yes

The college and the church they're both both impossible to lead because by definition they're dysfunctional.

Nobody knows who the boss is Wow, I did not know about that quote

That's uh, I don't know if that's encouraging or discouraging. I don't know where to go with that one So plain -spoken says again just oh wait, that wasn't what

I wanted to go to you. Sorry Barb Johnson says no question Just want to say I love dr. Piper's podcast and relisten to many of the episodes.

So you have a podcast too You didn't tell me that It's called the rebellion Yeah, I've got

I've got 700 800 episodes out there But I took a break during the summer. So I've been on a hiatus for the last two or three months

I need to ramp it up again. Okay Micah sample says what would it take to pull the descendants of the

Wesleyan movement back towards biblical orthodoxy? How can the tide be turned at individual churches and academic institutions long term?

I think you might have already kind of answered that but you have anything to add you've got a higher biblical faculty and you've got to the delegates of Micah's question is within the

Organizational and governance structure of the Nazarene and Wesleyan churches, which I've already described So the delegates that you appoint to go to the general convention

General conference have to be biblically grounded and understand the importance of their votes until you do that You're going to get weak leadership.

That's woke Very good. Okay. Well, I think those are all our questions for now

Well, dr. Piper. Thank you once again, and if people want to find out more about dr.

Everett Piper, you can just go to dr Everett Piper calm dr. Everett Piper calm and find out more about his books and his writings and I guess your podcast

I'm assuming is there as well. So go check that out God bless. Thank you very much. Hey, thanks for having me on.