Reaching Zoomers

Conversations That Matter

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00:13

Welcome once again to the Conversations That Matter podcast, I am your host, John Harris. As always, here for another exciting, informative, and beneficial conversation with a first -time guest, we have

00:26

Matthew Pearson with us. How are you doing, Matthew? I'm doing good, John. How are you doing today? Doing very well.

00:32

I think you're our probably third Zoomer, I'm trying to think. Third Zoomer? Who was first?

00:38

I know Turnip Seed was one of them, who I got to meet him a few days ago.

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That was fun. Oh, did you? Yeah. I've never met him in person. I can't remember his name.

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I think I had someone on months, or now it might be over a year ago, to talk about, they had,

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I think they were at like a pride rally or something, and they were, if I remember correctly, they were attacked.

01:04

I can't remember the details of it even that well. I just know that the guy I was interviewing was a Zoomer, I'm pretty sure. Well, I'm happy to be your third

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Zoomer, John, and I'm happy to help you become cultured on Zoomer culture, if you want to endure that.

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That's what we're going to talk about. And we were having a conversation, Matthew and I, a few weeks ago about this, and Matthew had some really interesting things to say about Zoomers.

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And as a millennial, this is kind of weird for me. I thought I was young, but now I'm not, and Zoomers are very different than millennials in many ways.

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So we're going to talk about those generational differences, and then how, as Christians, we can approach

01:42

Zoomers, how we should think about Zoomers, how do they think. And if people want to reach out to Matthew after the podcast, if they have any questions, they can go to at underscore

01:52

Matthew Pearson on Twitter, or, well, I guess they can't contact you through this, but they can listen to the podcast you're on called the

01:59

Irenic Protestant Podcast. Yep, that's right. That's on,

02:04

I guess, iTunes? It's on, like, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, probably anywhere you can find podcasts.

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But I'm not the editor, but I know for sure it's on those three. So yeah. Okay. And as a millennial,

02:16

I'm still saying iTunes. All right. So let's get into this subject a little bit,

02:22

Matthew. I know you from writing for American Reformer and just your online activity on X.

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And, you know, you're a really sharp guy. You understand Protestant theology, reform theology.

02:35

You're also pretty politically astute. And one of the things that I've noticed just before I even talked to you is that younger guys, younger millennials and Zoomers in particular, seem to be more open to right -wing ideas.

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And they seem to be more on the

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Trump train, and they're willing to be loud about it online, especially. And it's a curious thing to me.

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I know a few years ago, there were some predictions about Zoomers being the most conservative generation.

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And I thought, oh, yeah, right. Like, they don't even know what gender they are. And of course, that dynamic is also in the water.

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So it's a really weird thing. It seems like Zoomers are super, at least on a political level, different.

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You got really hard left Zoomers. You got really hard right Zoomers. And I don't know if there's a lot in between. It's just kind of like balkanized.

03:32

So is that an accurate read? Yeah, John, I think that is a largely accurate read.

03:37

And I was actually just thinking about this today before I came on the cast while I was at work. A thought just kind of hit me is that there's really three types of Zoomers, I'd say, regarding politics.

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I'd say the first is just indifferent because a common trait with Zoomers is just oftentimes like an indifference to things.

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And I think of like TikTok and how we all have such short attention spans. You go up and you talk to people and you're like, you know, that's basically destroying your brain.

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You know, that's frying your dopamine receptors. And what does everyone answer? They're like, I don't care. That's like very common.

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And you see this in the political realm as well with some people is that there's a common thing where Zoomers just don't really give a rip about what happens and they just kind of live.

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So that's one type of Zoomer. The second type of Zoomer is like, I'd say this is pretty prominent, just very far left, like fully bought into, you know, like,

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I don't know if I can say this on your show, but like gay race communism, just like the whole shebang, you know, all of them like, you know, they may have been slightly moderate, but then summer 2020, you know, the

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Floyd summer of love happened and they all posted the black square. They all posted the BLM things.

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They all started referring to racism as, you know, like a systemic oppression of people of color done by white people.

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They started buying into that whole frame. So that's the second. And then the third is, it's going to mainly be a lot of online guys that are very right wing.

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Like I wouldn't just say conservative, I would say right wing. You see a lot of these guys online and you see there's a lot of energy behind them and the things that they're doing.

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And it's just, it's weird. It's something in the air. You can just kind of see it. You can feel it.

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You run into guys at like these, you know, like a TPUSA event or just any other event.

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You talk to them for like 15 minutes, you know, like, wait, these guys are not normies. These guys are like tapped in like a lot, you know, they've really, they approach certain things from a very right wing angle.

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And so I'd say, sorry to take up all that time, but I'd say like, those are your three options. Basically, it's politically indifferent, very far left or very far right.

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Those are your primary options. And most of the like somewhat moderate zoomers, you talk to them long enough, you spend enough time with them and they eventually end up one or the other.

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So that's kind of what I've noticed at least. Yeah. Don't apologize for taking up time. We're here to listen to you speak.

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And if I can help facilitate that by asking questions, that's why I'm here. Oh, I just try and be as succinct as I can.

06:07

So I just don't want to ramble. But yeah, that was good. So when we talk about zoomers, who are we talking about? Like, often people wonder like, what years like, because for millennials,

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I think it stops at what 1994 or five, or maybe it's more than that. I don't remember.

06:23

Um, yeah, I don't remember when. So zoomers weren't usually like after 2000.

06:29

That's, that's what I thought. No. So, uh, some zoomers, I think, uh, I think zoomers actually started in 1997.

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Um, if I'm remembering rightly, but usually late nineties, um, those are zoomers. Cause I, yeah, that makes sense.

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And if millennials end in 95 or six, then yeah. Okay. So we're talking about people who, uh, have been engaged in technology their entire lives.

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They have smartphones since the time, I don't know. Do you remember when you, uh, like didn't have a smartphone or when smartphones weren't around?

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Yeah, no. So, I mean, there was a time when I was, I think I was in maybe third grade and I started doing fencing and my mom would drop me off at the fencing place.

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And then in case I needed to call her. So she got me a little flip phone. That's what she got me. But then the next, but at the same time

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I had like a little iPod. And then I think in fifth grade, I got my, it was my dad's old iPhone.

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I got that. And, um, it didn't really have much service on it. But then by, by middle school, by sixth grade,

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I had a phone that could call and do things. So like a cell phone, Apple phone and everything. So literally like one of these were much shorter and smaller.

07:33

Wow. So, you know, for me as a millennial, uh, I didn't have a phone and it was not even a smartphone.

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It was like a flip phone till I was, I think 15. Oh, wow.

07:46

Yeah, no, I had it really early. Yeah. Yeah. So it's totally different. And even something like that,

07:51

I think changes. Why don't we start there with technology? So what, uh, how do you zoomers think about technology and how has technology impacted the way they think?

08:02

Yeah. So, uh, technology actually, as a, I mean, as we were just discussing before my whole connection went kaput ironically, but, um, zoomers have a pretty, uh, technology has shaped them a lot in that, uh, technology is a primary way that they actually build a lot of community because, you know, every once in a while, there's this pastor online who, you know, he's a bit of a squish and he, he tweets like a,

08:29

Oh, friendly reminder guys, Twitter's not real life. And while to an extent that's true, um, especially pertaining like our niche theology debates and whatnot, uh, regarding zoomers, this is not fully the case.

08:42

Um, and John, you and I were discussing this a few, a few weeks back. Um, but there actually was a study

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I looked at from November of, uh, 2022, I believe, um, I could send the study and you can maybe link it or something.

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Um, and it showed that I think, um, 85 % of zoomers I'm remembering rightly spent about four hours on social media every day.

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So zoomers have large communities online. Um, they, they very frequently will be in these group chats with people that either know or people they've never met before.

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Um, and so like technology really has shaped them because it kind of like connects them with their communities and they're on it so much.

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And I mean, that's kind of how I like got connected with so many people. I know, um, the person that I'll be like rooming with once I move up to Orlando in a few months, he's someone

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I know from social media. I met him, we started hanging out, we became friends and now I'm going to be his roommate.

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So like, there's a lot of ways that zoomers connect with people through technology and from their build communities.

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And so, uh, I don't know if that was the exact question you were asking, but I do know that like technology and then specifically through technology, social media plays like a large role, um, and, um, with zoomers and shaping them.

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I've noticed in doing evangelism at outreaches that zoomers seem pretty open to spiritual things more so than millennials.

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I don't know if that's across the board or just my experience, but they don't seem to be as receptive in, from my limited vantage point,

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I suppose, to, uh, like the traditional like gospel literature or like the traditional approaches.

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They really want a very genuine conversation. It seems like, and I know some of these same things were said about millennials that millennials want authenticity and so forth, but, uh,

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I actually think it's more true for zoomers. Uh, I, I don't know if you agree with that or not, but maybe the question would be, how do you see zoomers wanting to be approached?

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What kinds of things as a Christian are they more receptive to? Uh, and you know, what, what would you like to see churches do in their ministries if they're trying to reach zoomers?

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Uh, yeah. So I would definitely say that there's, uh, somewhat of an, an increase in religiosity among zoomers.

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Cause we kind of grew up as like, uh, you know, I think it was more with the millennials or it was like the new atheism thing.

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Right. You know, the kind of, uh, the kind of trend that someone like a Richard Dawkins embodies and who in the aftermath left us

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James Lindsay. So thanks Dawkins. Um, but, um, you know, that there was kind of the millennials who went through the, um, the new atheism thing.

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And while meanwhile, the zoomers were largely like just little kids growing up and they're like, I remember the memes, but like back in 2008,

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I was seven. So like, I was just like, Oh, stay away from that because it's not Christian or whatever. Um, but yeah, there's like a large, um, there's a lot of spirituality and religiosity among zoomers.

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I would say, um, I don't really have the statistics to like back this up yet. I have, I have some stats for some other things, but not this in particular, but just from what

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I've seen, like among people I know on social media, um, even if they're not Christian, you know, they all believe in like astrology or they're all about, you know, getting in touch with their chakra or something, or they're, uh,

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I don't know the divine feminine energy or I don't know, some, something like that. Uh, that's pretty common.

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Um, and among like Christians, at least the, there's a large draw among zoomers to more like traditional forms of Christianity.

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Uh, there's like an attraction to high church and liturgy and things like that, or just something to kind of ground you.

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Um, and I, I can tell you that except for like one, except for one of them, one of my best friends, everyone except him has basically that I know in real life has basically become

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Eastern Orthodox or Roman Catholic, like all of them. Meanwhile, I'm the one who doesn't budge because I'm, I'm petty and think that, uh,

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God's word is sufficient and clear. And I, I, I firmly believe in Protestant principles and doctrines and I will to the day

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I die, but it's very common in my friend group that a lot of these guys have done that because they're being drawn to these more, uh, traditional stable values.

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Because, um, I think a lot of people feel that evangelicalism has kind of given them a sense of rootlessness.

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So a lot of guys kind of want to feel rooted and grounded in something bigger than themselves.

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And I also think that that's part of why a lot of these, um, these non -Christian, but like spiritual girls kind of go to like, uh, whatever it is they believe in, because they want to feel like they're a part of something bigger than them.

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Even if they don't believe in Christianity, then if you do believe in Christianity, a lot of these guys are going to Rome or the

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East. So that's a common trend I've noticed. And part of that has to do with a very effective, you know, propaganda through like TikTok, because TikTok is, when

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I say propaganda, by the way, I don't mean that in like a bad way. Well, it's bad in that I disagree with like what they're propagating, but propaganda in and of itself is not like something bad necessarily, you know, just has to be truthful and clear with reality.

13:55

Yeah. So Zoomers are - Yeah, so like they're just Eastern Orthodox and Roman, oh, sorry, you go ahead.

14:02

I think there's a delay, sorry. Uh, so Zoomers, it sounds like are somewhat unstable and they come from a background that wants to find that stability in something else.

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And so they'll root themselves into religions, even if it means that they can find stability.

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Uh, yeah, no, I would say that's partly true. Yeah. But again, a lot of it, um, this is gonna be, this is gonna get big.

14:32

Yeah. Okay. So a lot of this has to do with just the fact that Zoomers don't really have anything they're grounded in.

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They're largely a rootless people, and this ties into so many different things. In regard to religion, many

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Zoomers that are belonging, like that are Christians at least belong to an evangelical church that doesn't really have many strong roots or connections to the past.

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In regard to just identity, many Zoomers, like particularly white

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Zoomers have no sense of ethnic or racial consciousness and no sense of heritage at all.

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They kind of just think of themselves as belonging to some universal people. So they don't really feel any strong identity in that area.

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Many Zoomers don't have any heroes to look up to really. Every person they look up to is like a

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Marvel character or a social media influencer. They're not like, they're not growing up in the collapse.

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They are, or yeah, no, they're not bringing about the collapse, but they're kind of growing up in the aftermath of it.

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Someone who has done a great video on this is a Zoomer you've had on your show before, Ryan Turnipseed.

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He made an excellent video on Gen Z as well. You just type in his name on YouTube and then

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Gen Z and you should find it. But he's made a lot of these similar points as well in that it just largely stems from a whole entire, on both the religious and just like political or just not even political, but just like a conception of who you are as a person in the world.

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There's just a large sense of rootlessness and that's a lot of what drives Zoomers. So in reaching

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Zoomers with the gospel and even I suppose this would go beyond just evangelism, but also trying to just get truth to them so that they can live stable lives and be contributing members of society and making sure they're not going down the woke movement or anything like that.

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Would the approach be to offer some kind of stability? Like where have you seen success in this arena?

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I'm wondering if couples who open up their house and say, look at the way we're living, we'd like to have you over for dinner.

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And then providing that example of stable living is maybe the best thing to show

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Zoomers to maybe attract them or get them to realize that the things that are being offered mostly in the world are not actually good things and that what they're looking for, what many of them

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I should say are looking for is provided in a stable Christian household. No, absolutely.

17:19

You're right. I do think it is effective to show Zoomers a healthy family lifestyle of having them over, like you were just said, just hospitality or having them over for dinner or something or giving them something to look up to basically.

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Because a lot of Zoomers, they grew up with a sense of either they don't care, like I mentioned with the three types of Zoomer political people.

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They either don't care or they're kind of just hopeless about everything. They have despair. They're like, oh, all these prices are high.

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You know, a lot of them resent Boomers as well, or Gen X maybe even.

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But honestly, just showing them like, hey, these things are possible, that gives a lot of hope to them.

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And I can give you a good example of this. So I'll be going to seminary in a few months.

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I'll be starting. And my assistant pastor, before he was the assistant pastor there, he was basically like the director of something.

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I don't know. So he could have a job there basically. In the meantime, before he became an official pastor, he was going to seminary while doing that.

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And he had six kids and a wife, obviously. That's where he got the kids from. And he would drive back and forth like two hours to the seminary and back and things like that.

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And that was just inspirational because it showed me like, OK, I'm going to go to seminary as a single guy.

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I only have to worry about this thing. So if he can do it, surely I can. And so that's just like a brief, like particular example for me.

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But what I would say that shows is like if you are interacting with Zoomers, you don't need to try and be cool, but just show them that like the good life that they want to pursue is possible.

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That should be helpful to them, I would say. And I know that doesn't like particularly like relate to the gospel.

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I think in regards to like preaching the gospel to them, it's just, I mean, there are particular ways you can do that.

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But really what it would just be is like the classic stuff, like preach the law of God, show them that they're sinful.

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And look, there's a lot of things to point out about Gen Z and sin because we've embraced many heinous and wicked sins, especially in like the realm of LG barbecue and all that.

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So there's a lot to work with there, I would say. Yeah. So when

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Zoomers are thinking about their lives and what their lives look like,

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I'm wondering if it's different than millennials. So millennials were, we were all told, and just like,

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I think Gen X and to some extent boomers, that we need to get an education. Millennials the most, especially perhaps though, that you need to get a college degree because our parents were boomers and the boomers really valued the certifications, right?

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And if you don't get a college degree, then you're basically, it's not going to go well for you.

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Your life is going to be being a ditch digger and you're not going to make any money. And so money kind of becomes the key to living the good life in a way.

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And Zoomers, I think have been blocked in some ways that millennials have not.

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I was able to buy a house in 2016 and my house is now, it is more than two times, it would cost more than two times the amount

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I paid for it. I couldn't afford my own mortgage. I couldn't afford to buy the house that I'm in if I was starting out now.

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And I don't think the same opportunities would have been afforded to me. And so I know Zoomers are going through this and I wonder whether or not that affects their dreams of pursuing success.

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And I don't think the millennial example is the best example at all. I think it was compromised in many ways, but you still had people that wanted to, maybe after they achieve their success, have a family and then enjoy children and then retire and have all these experiences.

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That's what millennials like to do, right? We're going to have, we're going to travel. We're going to eat all kinds of different foods.

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And Zoomers just don't have the same opportunities. And so how does that make them feel or think about life?

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Well, it's like I said earlier, it's either indifference or it's resentment.

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I think that, I don't know if I have too much to say on that topic, really. I think some of it is just a little bit obvious.

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But yeah, no, there is a sense of resentment, I would say, for Zoomers. And especially, I'm going to keep coming back to social media.

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With the rise of social media, there's a bit of a space to air out your resentment. So you can have these white girls crying in the car about how bad their boomer dad is or something like that.

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And sometimes what they're saying online is valid and it should be brought to awareness because look, as much as I love the boomers because they do vote

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R, I'm not going to be the boomer defender on everything.

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I definitely do think that there are things, there are faults in all generations. And there are ways to call those faults out in a way which is honoring to our forefathers and to those who are alive right now.

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So I think that's fair game, basically. But there is a sense in which if you don't do it well, you can breed resentment.

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And I think that's how a lot of Zoomers feel. And especially when like, Steven Wolf has spoken about this as well, when a lot of these people are, they're crying because they can't afford anything or whatever.

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And they just so happen to be a girl that's liberal or whatever. And these stupid big right wing accounts are like, huh, stupid libtard girl doesn't, pick yourself up by your bootstraps or whatever.

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You're not helping at all. You're just giving older people online something to laugh at.

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But you're not by any means raising cause of what is actually driving the resentment behind it.

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And so I think that's actually a problem on the right wing a little bit is, it's fun to laugh.

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It's fun to have fun. And that's a good thing too. But sometimes you can't make your entire political platform owning the libs.

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If you're just laughing at liberals, which is good to do, and you should continue to demonstrate that their perception on things is ridiculous.

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But if that's the only thing you do, you just have a part, like then you're just as unserious as them.

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And so, yeah, no, that's kind of what I think is, I think a lot of resentment gets built up because of the things that you mentioned,

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John. But does that change their goals in life? And so for, I think millennials, the goal was to get the certifications to achieve the success and to have the esteem of your peers and financial stability, which is,

24:27

I realize millennials want to be different than the boomers. And there's many things that make them different. But that is one thing that is more similar between millennials and boomers than I think

24:35

Zoomers. I wonder whether Zoomers are thinking through like, college doesn't make sense.

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The certifications don't. I'll get a blue collar job and the goal is survival because I can't really hope to afford a house.

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And maybe if good luck has it, maybe a TikTok channel will propel me into being a internet star.

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And in that sense, it's the esteem of your fans that really matters.

25:07

It's not like general society esteem in the form of certificates and social respectability.

25:15

It doesn't seem like Zoomers care as much about that. No, yeah, you're right.

25:21

It comes down to, I think, the indifference as well. I keep coming back to this, but yeah, they're either indifferent or they're just planning like, how do

25:29

I survive basically? And you're right. There is a bit of a little movement among Zoomers where it's just like, screw college.

25:36

I'll just work blue collar. I'm kind of doing that right now because I currently work in restaurant construction, but that's just to save up money for seminary before I go off there.

25:47

I just graduated college, but no, that is common. A lot of Zoomers are just, the ones are at least like growing up now and out of college or whatever.

25:56

It's kind of just, they're just floating. A lot of them don't really have goals.

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I'll give you kind of an example of this. There's like this one time where I found like this guy on YouTube.

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I don't remember what his channel's called, but he was basically like a masculinity self -improvement guru channel.

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It was not Andrew Tate. I do remember that. But he had to tell people, oh yeah, make sure you set goals for yourself.

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Women like that or whatever. And I just remember sitting there hearing that and thinking, this guy said, tell me to set goals?

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I was already setting goals. But apparently after talking to a few acquaintances and friends about this, it's very common for Zoomers to not set goals for their life.

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They just exist and live and don't strive for anything, which is, it's weird.

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And that's kind of why before I came on here, I talked to a few Zoomers about things, because some of these things are just foreign to me.

26:51

Like, I really don't get it. What did your Zoomer friends tell you? I mean, they expressed a lot of these things, like kind of talking about how many of them just like, many of the people they know just don't have ambitions or anything like that.

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And something I was also reminded of is a lot of Zoomers don't read. And despite being a

27:16

Zoomer on Twitter, most Zoomers are not on Twitter. They're actually on either Instagram or TikTok, because you can just scroll and watch a video, don't have to read words or anything.

27:26

So, yeah, anyways, I've said a lot there. You're scaring all the Boomers right now with no hope for the

27:35

Zoomer generation, because these are all things that we're - I think there's hope though. No, there is.

27:40

And that's where I want to get to that, because I think that's important. Before we get to that, though, I do have to ask another kind of Blackpill question here.

27:48

So drugs and pornography. Zoomers, I tend to - well, we talked about this a little.

27:56

And from what you said and what I've observed, they're on a different level. Like, it's super sad to me what's happened with just, you know, the birth rate is plummeting, marriage plummeting, all kinds of sexual dysfunctions at early ages.

28:14

Drugs, of course, suicides. All these things seem to be wreaking havoc in your generation.

28:21

So what can you tell us about that? Yeah, no, so I can't really say much on, like, the drug front.

28:31

I mean, I know it's - we're kind of growing up in, like, the legalization of drugs. A lot of them, you know, some of them like to smoke weed or whatever.

28:38

I don't really know any of the statistics on it. Just because, like, drugs are just -

28:43

I haven't been around drugs a whole lot. I'm a good old boy. You know, I just don't hang around people that do drugs a lot,

28:49

I guess. Well, there's some guys at work that are questionable. What was that? I thought you did Zen. Don't tell my mom that.

28:58

Okay. She may watch this. Anyways, something that I do know, though, is that Zoomers have, like I said, they grew up with technology.

29:12

So because of that, like, things like pornography have always been just super easily accessible.

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And, you know, for the most part, most Zoomers get exposed either in middle school or at a younger age.

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And it's horrible. You know, it's awful. It's like a plague, like, basically afflicting them.

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And because it's just so easily accessible, you have to take, like, the necessary steps to prevent, like, any access to things like that.

29:39

So, yeah, it's very prominent among Zoomer men is pornography.

29:46

And then especially with, like, the culture of OnlyFans, where these girls will, like, pay to - or have you pay to get, like, particular things from them.

29:55

Because at this point, your dopamine receptors are so fried. You've looked at these, like, you've looked at pornography so much that the only thing that can actually get you excited now for a woman is if it's particularized, like, catered to you and you pay her money.

30:09

Like, it's terrible. It's disgusting. And that's something a lot of these guys deal with.

30:15

Like, and I'll talk with guys about this. And, like, they'll tell me what they did. And I'm just like, you paid money for that?

30:21

And I don't know, like, I'm blackmailing myself even talking about this, man. Is there hope in the sense that they want to escape?

30:29

They just don't know how. Maybe that's a place that Christians can step in since they're -

30:35

Yeah, no, there's, like, a good chunk of them that they're not even Christian, but they, like, they realize something's wrong.

30:41

Some of them are so far gone that I just - I think of Romans 1, where it basically says, you know,

30:46

God's given them over to a reprobate mind. It really does seem that way with some, but there really are some guys, like,

30:52

I know, like, there was one guy who wasn't a Christian. He's like, I gotta stop, man. This is not good for me.

30:58

And then another guy at my work, he was, like, he was really just, like, breaking down, talking to me about it.

31:06

And I was, like, sharing the gospel with him. And that was a really good experience. I got to connect him with my pastor as well.

31:14

But yeah, no, there is, like, a lot of hopelessness that comes with that as well. But also, like, I don't want to discount that there are a lot of Zoomers that kind of just fully embrace the degeneracy and just go along with it.

31:26

Yeah. So let's maybe do some hope here. So what, what, well, maybe this isn't hopeful.

31:35

Maybe we're getting there. But what percentage of Zoomers are Christians and open or, and I don't know,

31:44

I think you have the stats, Protestant, Catholic, whatever. I'm pulling that up right now. So this is slightly blackpilling.

31:53

It is, but it's good to know, though. So a little bit over half of Zoomers are, no, no, no, sorry.

32:01

I'm looking at, I was looking at racial demographics about Zoomers. My apologies. Oh, okay, here it is.

32:08

A total of 56 % of Gen Z identifies as Christian. So a little bit over half.

32:14

But then, like, I'll break the stats down a little bit more, though. The 56 % number does not account for church attendance.

32:23

So 20 % of Gen Z attends church at least once a week. So that's, yeah, that's the amount of Zoomers.

32:32

So, well, over half identify as Christian. Only 20 % of Gen Z actually attend church once a week.

32:38

And then 38 % of Gen Z report never attending church. And it just, the words are never attending church.

32:46

I don't know if that means never been to church, but I would just assume that, like, that just means they don't ever go. And then 14 % only attend a few times a year.

32:55

And 18%, quote, seldom attend. Okay, so that is almost, yeah,

33:05

I mean, it's the first post -Christian generation, I suppose. I don't know. I mean, a little over half claim to be

33:12

Christian. But, you know, I think the overall stats are something like in the 80s, right?

33:17

It's like, for Americans, at least, that claim to be some variety of Christian.

33:24

Yeah, I think so. And it's especially low, again, when you consider that, like, even though 56%, only 20 % of Gen Z attend church.

33:32

And then if you want to think in political terms about lone bulwarks, only 10 % of Gen Z are white evangelicals.

33:39

Okay, so that's going to be a serious demographic shift and a political shift. And I don't really know what that means.

33:47

For the United States going forward. Are a lot of the right wingers in your experience that we just talked about, the young men who are

33:55

Zoomers and right wingers, are they Christians? Or is there like a pagan right that's pretty strong in the

34:01

Zoomer world? Yeah, I wouldn't know if they're strong. I can't really look at the statistics.

34:07

But there's a large following. There's a good chunk of Zoomers that are big fans of...

34:13

Oh, man, I can't believe I'm talking about this guy publicly. I'm gonna get myself in trouble. But there's a large, there's a decent contingent of Zoomers are a fan of this gentleman known as Bronze Age pervert.

34:24

I'm sure you've heard of him. Yeah. And he kind of like advocates this, you know, a vitalist mindset, which is kind of grounded in Nietzsche.

34:35

And, you know, he also takes influence from some sources like Yukio Mishima, who

34:41

I actually like a little bit. So he's actually good. You should read Mishima, specifically Sun and Steel.

34:47

But I disavow all the bad things about him, because he was a pagan. But yeah, so like, there's like a certain contingent of them.

34:55

And then I was just at the, you know, I was just at a political event recently. And I was talking to some people.

35:02

And like, it was mainly like, I like talk to a lot of Protestants, talk to a lot of Catholics and Eastern Orthodox.

35:07

But there were some people who called themselves perennialists. And perennialist is like, it's like a 20th century.

35:14

I might totally butcher this, by the way, because I actually don't know a whole lot about them. But it's like a 20th century kind of like mystical pagan movement.

35:25

And like, they're kind of very far right. They ground themselves in the thought of individuals like Julius Avila and some others.

35:36

It's a very weird aspect of like the mystical pagan, right? Which again, I don't really know a whole lot about.

35:42

If you ask me questions, I can't really tell you much. But I did meet a few of those guys like that. And I had interesting conversations with them, of course.

35:50

But yeah, there is a sense of like this weird paganism on the right, which some

35:56

Zoomers have taken up. Okay, so let's go for the positive stuff now that we've identified some of the main problems.

36:05

And to summarize, you know, exposure technology at early ages, pornography epidemic, potential drugs are normalized.

36:13

You have instability in the home because they come from broken homes. Their parents are probably divorced.

36:19

They've moved around a lot. They lack identity. Some of them want stability, but don't really know where to look or how to find that.

36:30

They're not getting married at early age. Well, they're getting married very late.

36:36

They're putting it off if they do get married. They're not having as many kids. So these are all issues.

36:42

But maybe the positive things are there does seem to be at least a contingent of especially males who are more right wing.

36:50

So that means they're open up to traditional values and potentially Christianity. And there's certainly it sounds like opportunity to showcase stability.

37:01

And and this is where I wonder whether churches are doing what they should in this regard overall, because the emphasis has been from the time

37:13

I was in seminary, I noticed to very much reach out to the left as much as possible. And and I don't know if that's the way to approach humor.

37:23

Some of them are far left. Some of them are far right. And it sounds like this sort of center left approach isn't really going to please anyone.

37:30

And so there's an opportunity here. What do you see? What are some success stories if you have them?

37:37

And then what do you think churches should do in approaching Zoomers and taking resources and investing them towards this?

37:46

Yeah. So in regard to like positives about Zoomers or at least like hope, even though it looks pretty rough,

37:57

I would say, as you just said, that there is a contingent of not just like right wing

38:02

Zoomers, but Christian Zoomers who are interested in their faith and in taking it more seriously.

38:11

I think part of reaching them is, well, not even part of reaching them, but what you kind of have to realize is despite the fact that they're a minority,

38:21

I mentioned this a few weeks back as well, but there are these words that are oftentimes attributed to Samuel Adams, even though he didn't actually say that.

38:29

So that's sad, but it's still true. He says, it does not take a majority to prevail, but rather in a rate, tireless minority, keen on setting brush fires of freedom in the minds of men.

38:40

So you can, with this minority contingent of Zoomers, still have hope.

38:46

And part of what that involves is not always just coddling left, realizing that a good chunk of Zoomers are right wing and basically saying, it's okay to be right.

38:58

It's okay to have these, you shouldn't just be like punishing them for like all these views or whatever saying, oh, that doesn't fall in line with liberal orthodoxy or something like that.

39:10

But you have to realize that a lot of these guys, that they just want something to ground themselves in.

39:16

And part of what that involves is giving them something to ground themselves in. So in regard to church or whatever, again, a lot of Zoomers don't read.

39:26

A lot of them are basically illiterate idiots, but of the ones who do, they're looking for something deeper.

39:34

So give them old dead guys to read. Give them, I guess, make them feel like they belong to something old, something ancient, like a church that has roots basically.

39:44

In regard to identity, if they have a heritage in this country, talk to them about their heritage, ask them who their ancestors were, go through with them.

39:53

Something that's been incredibly helpful for me has been doing research on my ancestry, making me feel like I'm more grounded.

39:59

I looked at my old Spanish ancestors and found out that I'm actually descended from a royal house that traces back to the 12th century repelling

40:08

Muslim invaders. I looked at my Anglo history and I realized I have on my mother and my father's side, deep roots to the early 1600s, living in New England, Maryland, Georgia, Alabama, Texas.

40:22

It's super cool and actually makes me feel like I have a grounding and identity in something.

40:28

So just open Zoomers up to that. Let them know that they're not alone because like I said,

40:34

Zoomers mainly feel like they're indifferent and they feel like they're alone, like they're the only people who are going through something.

40:42

So they won't feel alone if not only you're there for them, but you say, look what you have.

40:48

You have a rich tradition, not only in regard to your historical heritage, but even to your faith, you're grounded in something so much bigger than you.

40:59

And like I said, this is why Zoomers are both driven to very right -wing things and why they're driven to like papism and Eastern orthodoxy because they just are seeking something to ground themselves in.

41:13

I hope that makes sense. I think those things it does give them a structure when everything in life is a choice.

41:21

So for me, as a millennial, it was reinforced a number of times that I can do whatever

41:29

I wanna do, that it's my choice what career path that I go down. But you wanna be successful in whatever career path that is.

41:36

But for Zoomers, it's so much more than that. You now get to choose not just who you marry and what job, which is something that a few generations back, you wouldn't have even been able to really choose those things.

41:48

Your options would have been very limited as far as who you marry and what job. And now with online dating and everything, millennials kind of had more options, but Zoomers, it's like, man, you gotta choose what gender that you wanna be.

42:01

You gotta choose everything about you now is a choice. And there really isn't any ground rules that are set.

42:08

And I think like Eastern orthodoxy, Roman Catholicism and traditional

42:13

Protestantism, they all offer a sense of structure. And as you said, grounding and evangelicalism, popular evangelicalism,

42:22

I don't know if it does that, at least as much. And that could be one of the weaknesses that I think you're identifying with casual approaches to church and to God.

42:35

So - Yeah, definitely. And I don't know if you, you probably have been keeping up with this, I don't know, but maybe, so probably some of the

42:42

Baptist, the Baptist Leadership Network guides, they're probably seeing a lot of this go down, but at the

42:48

SBC convention right now, they're trying to, I saw Elisabeth on Twitter, they're discussing whether they wanna like formally adopt the

42:54

Nicene Creed. And this is primarily, I think, being pushed because a lot of these guys within the

43:01

SBC, they see what's happening. And so they want to ground themselves further. And I saw some people that were kind of trashing the guys who were basically saying, oh no, we shouldn't accept the

43:13

Nicene Creed, yada, yada, yada, even though I think they should. But a lot of it does have to do with evangelical identity.

43:19

Some of these people, they feel like, oh, well, this is too ecumenical. It can be interpreted in too many ways and it can be confusing other people.

43:28

But I do think that's an important move that the SBC could do is just adopting that creed.

43:34

Because someone had texted me the other day and she asked me, she was like, do you think Baptists can in good faith affirm the

43:40

Nicene Creed? I know this is about Zoomers and not the Nicene Creed, so a bit of a side tangent, but I did let her know.

43:46

I'm like, yes, I think they can affirm it and they should. But yeah, all that to say, this is even impacting a

43:53

Baptist, like SBC circles, the fact that this is being discussed right now.

43:58

And I think part of that is trying to make sure these people don't leave, give them something to ground themselves in.

44:06

And the Nicene Creed, it's not true just because an old church said it. It's true because every single point it makes is grounded in scripture.

44:14

And the fact that this was articulated so early on, if you can say, yes, we formally assent to this, it grounds you a little bit.

44:21

So I think that's part of the benefit of affirming something like that. But yeah, apologies for the bit of a side tangent on Baptist politics.

44:32

So what's one thing or two things that you wish that Christians who are older realized about Zoomers?

44:40

Or maybe one or two things that you wish that they would approach Zoomers, they would approach differently when they're talking or trying to connect with Zoomers.

44:54

I'll start with one. Don't try and be cool. Don't try and be cool.

45:01

We're interesting and we're so quirky and special and unique. No, I'm kidding.

45:06

But no, just be yourself. I was talking with someone about this who he actually, he taught a lot of Zoomers because he was doing teaching for a while.

45:15

And he said, yeah, when I just tried to relate with them, if I just try to be myself and be normal and say

45:21

Zoomer things ironically as a joke and make them laugh or whatever, that's when I connected with them the most.

45:27

Just be yourself. If you're a boomer, act like a boomer. It's fun. But not only that, just listen to them sometimes.

45:37

Ask and listen because that's always helpful. I know that this is a lot of generic stuff, but I mean, in reality, though we have our particularities, we're all in certain spots together.

45:52

And there's not really, I guess what I'm trying to say is there's not anything particular

45:58

I could think of off the top of my head other than just don't try and act like a Zoomer and sometimes just listen.

46:05

Ask them, what are your concerns or whatever? What are you going through? Be a

46:11

Zoomer therapist, I guess. Yeah, I don't know. That's what I would say.

46:17

Yeah, so they're not, I think maybe people could get the impression from watching or listening to a podcast like this that they're this special creature that must be approached so differently.

46:28

And I don't want anyone to get that impression. They're people. They're people like anyone else, but they are growing up in a different time with a different set of challenges.

46:38

And so that might change some things, but fundamentally they still have the same needs and desires and all the rest that humans have.

46:46

I've wondered whether or not, even in the capacity in which

46:51

I operate online, should I put more effort into Reels? Should I get on TikTok?

46:57

I'm not on TikTok. And I put barely any effort into Instagram. I just don't,

47:02

I'm a millennial. It's not my thing really as much. But if that's where the Zoomers are, and that may be the place to meet, to make those connections that can then become in -person connections.

47:18

And it seems weird because it's almost like online dating when that first came out.

47:24

I remember there were so many Christians who were against it and thought this is terrible. And now it's just normalized.

47:30

And it's just the way that people end up meeting each other. And there's pros to it, there's cons to it. But friendships are the same way it seems like now.

47:38

Like a lot of people meet each other online. And then once they are in chat groups, or I don't know how

47:47

Zoomers connect exactly. I don't know if they're watching each other's videos and comm boxes, whatever. But then that can transfer into a face -to -face interaction.

47:55

It seems like that's the typical way things are going. Yeah, I had a thought and it totally just escaped me.

48:05

Maybe I'll come back to it while I'm rambling. But yeah, no, I mean, like I said earlier, my future roommate is someone that I met online.

48:13

So there are a lot of Zoomer interactions. Wait, quickly, John, remind me, what was the question that you were building up to before you got into the...

48:21

I think that may jog my memory. That's my problem. I'm sorry, I rambled on. I think you said that Zoomers are normal people with normal needs.

48:29

Yeah, so they should be approached in the same way you approach anyone, but they have different sets of challenges.

48:35

And then I started getting into, should we approach them online?

48:40

Is that like something that needs to expand? Oh, yes. Okay, I remember what you were saying. I remember what you're saying now, yeah. As much as I hate,

48:48

I hate to say it, for the sake of good and effective Zoomer reach and usage,

48:55

John, I'm sorry. You may have to put Chinese malware on your phone. Oh, gosh. TikTok.

49:01

I'm trying to get my wife to take that off her phone, but... I'm kidding. I actually don't think you need

49:07

TikTok, but I do think that like the YouTube reels are actually a good means. Because there was this girl that I was dating a few months ago, and she was telling me how she got off all social media or whatever.

49:18

And we met on Hinge, of course, online dating like a Zoomer. No longer my girlfriend, by the way.

49:24

But she was like telling me, she's like, yeah, I got off social media and all that.

49:29

But occasionally I'll find myself scrolling on the YouTube like shorts and stuff. So look, man, the

49:36

Zoomers when they're bored, even if they don't have social media, if they have YouTube, they will go to YouTube reels. It's so unhealthy.

49:42

Oh, I know. It's horrible. And one of my buddies who has... He doesn't have Instagram. He doesn't have Snapchat. He doesn't have

49:48

Twitter. He has none of it. You know what he does use? He uses Twitter. And you know what he looks at on YouTube? He looks at YouTube shorts.

49:55

So yes, put time into making YouTube shorts. I never watch them. I will say you won't reach me.

50:01

I never watch YouTube shorts, but you're barely reaching all these other people I know. So yeah,

50:06

I think that may be helpful and important is being able to take these large messages and like make them succinct for the rotting

50:17

Zoomer mind, which has been totally fried and destroyed by TikTok and Instagram reels.

50:23

But yeah, you can do the same with Instagram reels as well. What's the deal with Helen Keller? Like why don't

50:29

Zoomers... Zoomers don't think she existed or something. Like, I don't know what the deal... Like no one ever questioned this as far as I know, but all of a sudden, all these

50:38

Zoomers are like thinking it's a conspiracy that Helen Keller exists. Like there's weird stuff like that, that I don't know if that gives you an insight into the

50:46

Zoomer minds. John, listen to me. Listen to me. If you, from the beginning of your conception, couldn't hear and couldn't see.

50:54

Oh no. How can you conceptualize any... No, I'm kidding. I'm not gonna go down that road. Yeah, that's just a funny little Zoomer quirk because it's a safe edgy conspiracy theory that they can do.

51:03

You know, like, and be thankful they're doing that instead of like, I don't know, something more heinous. Have you heard of the birds aren't real conspiracy?

51:11

No. Yeah, it's just a conspiracy that birds aren't real and that they're all like government cameras or whatever.

51:17

What? Specifically like seagulls, yeah. Seagulls. Something like that, yeah.

51:24

It's silly. I think the Zoomers have watched way too many things on a screen. So now the lines between real...

51:31

You're telling me now for the first time. Yeah. Lines between reality and fantasy are somewhat blurred.

51:39

Oh my. So they probably don't trust the government. They probably don't trust a lot of institutions. Oh yeah.

51:44

No, that's absolutely true. There is like, I feel like this is a case a lot of institutions. But there is a thing where, okay, this is actually,

51:52

I'm actually glad you brought this up. There's this thing with the Boomers, where the Boomers, I mean, you know, not a lot of them are like this anymore.

51:59

At least I hope they're not. Maybe some still are. Oh crap, some probably still are. Anyways, there's a thing where they watch

52:06

TV and it's like, it's true because the TV set up. And, you know, we know that's kind of garbage.

52:12

I mean, look at CNN and MSNBC and all these things. You know, even

52:18

Fox and the things that Fox says. Because, I mean, they're not even really that conservative anyways.

52:25

But, you know, there's basically like, we know whatever's said on the TV isn't true. But a lot of Boomers grew up believing that.

52:31

There's a problem with Zoomers. And that because Zoomers are illiterate idiots who only can look at a screen, they will get, their entire worldview will sometimes be formed from TikTok.

52:45

And like the TikTok person would be like, this is why the genocide in Gaza is bad and perpetuates whiteness, whatever.

52:51

Here are all my sources and I'll put these sources like really quickly on the sides, like for a second. And I know for a second, no

52:58

Zoomer is actually looking those sources up. They're just like, yes, so true, so true. And then scroll and then scroll.

53:04

Or there's also a common thing among Zoomers where they watch streamers. So these guys, these like fat idiot leftist men will be sitting back playing like World of Warcraft while they talk about leftist politics.

53:18

And then these people will send them like super chats and money donations. And literally like a Zoomer, a

53:24

Zoomer cannot consume a meal alone without watching a YouTube video or a stream. It's true.

53:30

I even struggle with this because the brain rot goes so deep. But yeah, that's very common for that's how they form a lot of their views.

53:38

So it goes from Boomers trusting everything on TV to Zoomers trusting whatever the TikTok person says because they have all the sources listed out to the side.

53:46

That's so isolated. Like it was bad when the

53:52

Boomers started watching like for their families, they'd be like, oh, let's watch TV as a family. And that was like viewed as a negative thing.

54:00

And now we're like literally in our own little worlds on a small little screen watching some other guy play a video game while we eat.

54:07

Oh yeah. I used to, this has been going on a long time too because I remember back in like middle school, my freshman year at high school,

54:14

I would do that kind of thing. I'd put on like a video game YouTuber and just watch them while I ate food. I got you here.

54:20

I got to ask you like, why? Why? What was fun about that to you? Like, why was that interesting?

54:29

Well, you know, sometimes you like to watch the gameplay that was happening. Sometimes they'd be adding commentary over it and things like that.

54:36

And then you'd listen to that. I don't know if you've seen this as of recent. If you're on one of these scrolling apps like TikTok or Instagram Reels or YouTube Shorts, there's a thing they'll do where they'll put like a movie clip or someone talking or anything really.

54:48

There's two screens, one up here for the movie clip or whatever. And then Subway Surfers is a game down here or some like GTA car game.

54:57

And I make a point whenever that's happening and I'm interested in the video, I cover the bottom of my screen just so I don't watch it.

55:04

Cause I'm like, this is horrible. Yeah. The first time I saw that, I didn't know what was going on. I thought it was a mistake that someone had.

55:10

Why did they like link this video game to this clip or this commentary? And then

55:15

I realized, oh my goodness, like is it Redeem Zoomer? I think like he just plays video games.

55:21

He'll play like Minecraft and he'll just talk about Protestant theology as he's playing Minecraft.

55:26

And I watched some of the episodes and I was just like, people watch this? Like what, you know?

55:33

Yeah. I don't really like watch a whole lot of Redeem Zoomer. We're like mutuals on Twitter or whatever.

55:39

But if I ever do listen to one of his videos, I have to turn the phone off and let it play because I refuse to do this.

55:49

I won't participate. You know the whole thing where it's like, I won't eat the bugs. I won't live in the pods.

55:54

I won't do it. That's like me now with this Zoomer culture stuff because I just realized

56:00

I'm like, I can't do this. But if Redeem Zoomer is sharing the gospel with people through Minecraft, then sure, go ahead.

56:08

Or, you know, if he wants to explain, I don't know. Why not football? Why not baseball? Why, like, you know, why not watch sports that are happening like in real time instead of like,

56:19

I don't know. I still don't understand it. John, you may have just come up with like a new thing. Watching football?

56:26

Well, like the gospel is explained or something. Yeah. All right. Well, with that, Matthew, thank you for sharing with us your extensive knowledge about Zoomers from firsthand experience and from your friends.

56:39

And you can check out Matthew Pearson's x at underscore Matthew Pearson. And it's funny.

56:46

You only gave me x. You didn't give me your TikTok or your Instagram. Well, there is no TikTok.

56:52

I deleted that app. You may still be able to find my account there, but it's deleted. And then

56:57

I'm just, people can find my Instagram. I only use it mainly for personal family and friend stuff.

57:03

But anywhere else you can find me is either, yeah, like the one podcast I'm on that you mentioned in the beginning,

57:08

Theoretic Protestant Podcast, or you can, I've written two articles for American Reformer and one for True Scripts.

57:16

That's right. Yeah. I'll be sending you something soon as well. So hopefully. Yeah, we actually are having, actually,

57:24

I'm not sure when I'm going to release this. So I'm not sure if we had or are having Pastor Mathis, already recorded Sean Mathis, though, on the podcast, partially because of the article you wrote for True Scripts.

57:34

So yeah. Nice. Anyway, keep up the good work. And thank you. Thank you once again. I appreciate it. Thank you,