Justin Peters Responds to Sam Storms

It's that it's fascinating to me how easily someone in one religion can find the fallacies and biases in another religion. I think that what's fascinating your raise your razor-sharp on your your your criticism of Islam here.

Yeah, and but what I find fascinating Jeff is that you recognize that with other religions.

But you don't do it with your own because I that may be the case. And and there's that confirmation bias coming up again. Welcome to apologetics live. We're here to answer your questions and challenges about God and the Bible.

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It says striving for attorney ministries. That's because we had put that up. So We're gonna have the show we've been planning. This is attempt number three to do this Justin Peters and his response to Sam Storms.

Let me bring in pastor Justin Pierce who's working on a paper while while doing a show. Hello everyone.

I am so glad to be back. What's your paper on?

Thing to say that's like saying to a pastor, what's your sermon on this Sunday and he has to think about it.

That's well, I have a five-part paper. It's an application project on the hermeneutics and it's five different scenarios dealing with everything from post-millennial ism on millennial ism. How to deal with the the The Old Testament.

How to deal with prophecy. Why do we need to use outside biblical sources outside tools. Just a lot of material that I'm that we're covering really good Bible. Yeah, only the Bible we should only.

Never look at anything, but the Bible at some point. Justin you and I are gonna. I got a video for you and I to review. I was invited at last week after the show. We had Elizabeth Prada on that was great.

If you haven't seen that that was some great content there. Right after the show. I got a contact from someone that I've been saying Hey, you can come on the show. They want to give have some you know want to to do stuff with us.

And I said, well, you can come on anytime and right after the show. He said how do you make the show but you know, can you come on and talk for 15 minutes about the gospel? With with some brothers. It was a complete setup and I realized that they had a different guy that they had invited in and once I came in they kind of just pushed him to the side of basically their whole thing is.

You ready for this? Go ahead. This was a new one. When you share the gospel, you have to believe in the name of Jesus now you say fine that we agree, right? No, no, no God. The Father's name is Jesus.

God the Son's name is Jesus and God the Holy Spirit's name is Jesus. That's their name. Not I am not what you see in Exodus. That's not right. It's Jesus. And it's Jesus in English, by the way.

Well in English, well that makes sense. Yeah, you. Have you can't have you know? The the biblical names and Hebrew and all that you can't do the stuff I do Greek. You can't do stuff like that. You got to do, you know.

Yeah, what what do you call it the 2020 through a 2021 version of the net Bible Version and must be in that form. Otherwise, it's not. It's the King James, but.

We got a hello from. We haven't seen him in here for a while. Michael our Canadian atheist friend. It says hello to Andrew and Peter. Long time no talk. I think he means Peters, which is the last Justin Peters, I guess.

Unless he thinks you're Peter, I don't know.

Hey Michael, how you doing brother? Well, I'll say brother. I'm sorry unless you got saved. Yeah.

So let's bring in Justin Peters. We'll just call him Peter for short.

The man the myth the legend.

There is so so Justin before we get started with the response to Sam storms and and for folks that we're gonna be dealing with his Sam storms wrote a defense of singing songs from Bethel and Hillsong.

We'll get into looking at this. But before you get started, this is I want to share this. This is from the governor. There's only a minute and a half, but this is from the new governor of New York. This is to quote Justin Peters Gobsmacking.

Would that be a fair term. You already saw the video. Would that be a fair term to use for this video. Yeah. That would fit.

Before you start for everybody on YouTube when we kicked off here in about two seconds. See ya.

Hey, hey, this is the governor of New York. So it's got to be safe. Oh. Here we go. This this. Okay, I there's no words for it. So I'll just hit play.

Prayed a lot to God during this time. And you know what God did answer our prayers. He made the smartest men and women the scientists the doctors the researchers. He made them come up with a vaccine that is from God to us and we must say, thank you God.

Thank you, and I wear my vaccinated necklace all the time to say I'm vaccinated all of you. Yes, I know you're vaccinated. You're the smart ones. But you know, there's people out there who aren't listening to God and what God wants, you know this you know who they are.

I need you to be my apostles. I need you to go out and talk about it and say we owe this to each other. We love each other. Jesus taught us to love one another and how do you show that love? But to care about each other enough to say please get vaccinated because I love you.

I want you to live. I want our kids to be safe when they're in schools. I want you to be safe when you go to a doctor's office or to a hospital and are treated by somebody you don't want to get the Virus from them.

You're already sick. We wouldn't be there. We have to solve this my friends. I need every one of you. I need you to let them know that this is how we can Fight this pandemic come back to normal and then start talking about the real issues that we have to Fighting systemic racial injustice which exists today and if there's a dot denier I will take you on any date because I've seen it.

I know it exists and we are not gonna have a blind eye to this ever again any longer under my.

Okay, so let me just be clear governor of New York I Deny, there's systemic racism. You're welcome on here anytime you want to come on and prove it. We will prove you are racist. But you're not gonna be able to prove we are just saying if you believe it's systemic.

It's because you're a racist, but okay. Let me just give my comment. I'll let Justin. I'm gonna let you guys comment on that. But I just thought it was funny that she caught herself. She's like when you go to the hospital and you're vaccinated and you don't want to get sick.

Oh Wait, how do you get sick if you're already vaccinated? She like stopped herself because you realized what she was saying made no sense if you're vaccinated. You wouldn't be able to get sick if the vaccine works.

But your thoughts on this brilliance other than the Complete horrific thing of using God and Jesus The way she did but your thoughts.

Which one I mean you said Justin so we're stuck. I think both are speechless. Yeah. Well, here's here's where I'm gonna come. You guys know that I've had the vaccine. I don't have a problem with it. You know, if you don't if you don't want to do it, don't do it.

That's fine. What but people like this the difference is? People like this are trying to mandate it as a socialist policy. They're trying they're trying to bring it out as. This is life-saving. This is what is righteous.

This is all it. No, that's not what it is. I've had it and and I'm fine with saying I've had it. I actually when I had my second surgery You know code came out and we were. Everybody was scared to death of it and I talked to Andrew about it and and whatnot and I said hey My doctor has suggested I need to take it because we thought it was it was going to be way worse than it was and They'd be like, you know I Know I know a lot of people that have gotten kovat and gotten sick some people has changed their lives forever and and I know people have died from it and so Coming from that standpoint.

What I'm gonna say is What you do what you think, you know between your conscience and God you do what you think you need to do. But when it comes to the socialist agenda people like this, I completely disagree with it I don't think it should be mandated I don't think the government should be in our business and I happen to remember that before we became a socialist country We actually had a thing called HIPAA where you couldn't ask people this stuff now.

It has to be a badge of the lady said she had on a necklace or something like that.

That is that like a thing. Do people wear like vaccinated necklaces now? No, I mean you guys know I don't talk about it.

I mean, I.

Wanted to play this life to get Justin's reaction live because when we play this beforehand Justin Peters your reaction when she talked about the necklace was oh.

Gosh yeah, I don't even know where to start. I think I lost 15 IQ points. Logical issues of her invoking yeah God and answering her prayers and being her Apostles hard pass on that one. Yeah, just Unbelievable unbelievable.

So yeah, you know and she knows what God thinks and God's talking to her and oh Yeah. Stick to politics, you know, you're you're in over your head. You're she's about as qualified she's about as qualified to speak to The theology of these issues as as I am to be a coach for a triathlete.

So.

Yeah, and let me just say for folks who may be new and are watching and we're listening and they don't understand. They may not know who you are. Justin. Justin Peters is you know, he's got cerebral palsy and walks with crutches or rides in a scooter.

So that's the reference to being a coach of a triathlon. It's not something he practices. Not regularly.

You're waiting for heaven for that. Anybody not know who Justin Peters is. I mean, I mean, come on. That's that's a logical fallacy. Hey, look look.

Look Justin and I went to a restaurant once we went for sushi and I had to go use the restroom and Justin sat down. I got up and I started making my way to the restroom and a guy stopped me and I knew I just expected is That Justin Peters Instead.

He's like is that Bruce? So-and-so and I went no and kept walking. But. But here there is a tie-in here that I see. I mean Realistically Justin is there a difference between what she's claiming to speak for God that these are her Apostles and that this is what God's thinking.

Is there a difference between what we see from her and what we're seeing from some of the NAR Word of Faith people. No.

Only one of degrees but not of substance. Yeah, there's really no there's there's no substantive difference because Word Faith NAR folks Routinely talk about how God is speaking to them on a regular basis.

And when you look at this movement Word Faith NAR And quite frankly not all but 99 of charismatic preachers in general. They don't do Exposition they don't exegete scripture. They exegete their latest dream their latest vision their latest trip to heaven.

The latest sign or wonder that they think they've seen it's all about experience. It's it's all about experience. It's not it's not Teaching sound doctrines not going verse-by-verse through scripture expositing the meaning of the text.

That's not What the charismatic movement is known for at all. You know if you were to take. If you were to take a thousand people at random pick a thousand people at random out of John MacArthur's Church, and then pick a thousand people out at random out of Bethel Church and And do Bible drill with them.

With which group do you think would win Bible?

They would they would channel it. They would they would channel it.

So it's. You know and what we know of God is derived from Scripture. Our knowledge of God is only deep as our knowledge of Scripture. And so if you've got a shallow understanding of Scripture with which the folks at Bethel do Then you've got a shallow understanding of God.

That's it's a one-to-one correlation here. Yeah. Yeah.

I like this comment that Melissa puts up. Justin Peters is the Batman of false teaching. Yeah, so so but you know this the thing that I see with this is that this is done so often I Just I'm gonna ask the same question to you and see a lot of people.

I posted two polls in strike the striving fraternity Facebook group and a lot of people I think got this wrong because they didn't understand what I was saying. So the first question is which book and This I guess for either.

Justin which book had a greater impact on you personally knowing God or experiencing God.

Which one. Okay, so personally. Personally I've read both of them. I've experienced both of them. Oh, I will say this personally. Knowing God has been more impactful for me. Okay, but I know the question you were asking to get to the next question.

Okay, okay. Justin Peters.

Yeah, I've read both of them as well. Knowing God hands down. Okay. So this the other question I asked is which one? has a has a greater impact on Christianity knowing God or Experiencing God and the overwhelming number of people put knowing God Just in Peters, which do you think has a greater impact on Christianity as Far as when we look at the influence.

Okay, are we talking about the broad visible? Yeah. Okay, so not real Christianity just.

You got to break it down because I know where you're going. Well even even with real Christianity I would argue might be the same. Just in the way that it has influenced so much. Yeah, but which book would you say?

Experiencing God by Blackaby. I mean clearly it's it's it's sold many many more copies now. Yeah hands down experiencing God 100 Yeah, and that's not a good thing. It's just.

Well, and you think about it. Experiencing God is the book that introduced and brought in the Charismatic ideology into the Baptist thinking. It's the one I'll never forget when when the church I was at.

They actually did it the entire church. They had 700 people that were going through this and everybody was experiencing God, you know. And it was the biggest thing going and it was Everybody's drive to experience or to hear to get the voice of God.

And Blackaby was seen as being a solid Evangelical Baptist mindset and everybody agreed with it and nobody questioned it.

So then this is gonna lead into what we want to talk about tonight and this is want to bring this in. So so Justin Peters, I know you talk about this in some of your seminars. What has been the influence of the Blackabys book experiencing God on the broad sense of Christianity.

Yeah, it's been massive it's been massive and what Justin Pierce just said right there is absolutely right and Just just to flesh it out a little bit more. I would submit that Experiencing God is is singularly most responsible for bringing in Charismatic theology into at least theoretically non charismatic churches.

Experiencing God came out I believe in 1991 and Before 1991 before experiencing God most non-charismatic churches, which would include. Southern Baptist. Would have understood that we speak to God in prayer.

God speaks to us in the Bible. Most would have understood that now hardly anybody understands that now almost every Southern Baptist. Even though theoretically they're non-charismatic. But they because of experiencing God and all of the.

And all of the tag-along spin-off products that come up that have come along with it because it's spun off all kinds of other teachers that teach the same thing, you know, Charles Stanley and Priscilla Shire and Beth Moore and on and on and on now almost every Southern Baptist thinks that prayer is a two-way street.

That we're supposed to talk to God and then listen for him to talk back to us in a still small voice that God speaks to us and dreams and hunches and impressions and all this kind of stuff and it's that is now the overwhelming view of even Theoretically non charismatic churches.

It's had a massive influence massive.

It's it is I would argue the reason that people need to. I think you sell this on your your website at Justin Peters org Jim Osmond's book. Do not.

God doesn't whisper. Mm-hmm. I almost titled your book, but yeah, I need to get it on my website.

So so that I mean that book that Jim Osmond wrote Addresses this whole issue that the influence it has had. And I think in my opinion when we look at let's Dig into this blog article that Sam Sam Storms has written.

I Believe that some of this same Thinking of experiencing God and this God is love and we should love one another. It is why he wrote this article. So let me just give the backdrop to this and then I'm gonna start by Justin letting you do any any Opening comments you want to make about the article overall and then we could go through different pieces of it.

But this is and I don't know who Mackenzie Morgan is. I'm sure you do refined church in Tallahassee. So I Guess this person was the worship leader I believe and made an announcement that their song their church will not sing any Hill song or Bethel songs anymore.

The arguments I guess that were made and I'm just taking this from what Sam Storm said. I didn't go back and read her her I guess Mary Mackenzie's or her I'm guessing but I didn't go back and read Mackenzie's original article.

I Don't think that Sam Storms gave a link to it. So but It seemed that Mackenzie's making arguments Justin that you have made for a very long time. You've made openly you've done not on Todd Friel's program where you've talked about the reasons we should not sing Bethel music Hill song in church.

One of the reasons well, let me let me let you make the argument that you usually make it. Actually, there is a comment that came in here. Let me ask you this because this is a strange comment. But someone is saying to Justin Peters looking forward to your debate with Maha Hajib.

He's a dishonest person. I hope you expose him. By the way, when is the date of the debate? You're you don't do debates that I know of um, I.

Don't even know who Mimi hijab is. Okay, I don't know. Sorry. Sahi Sahi I don't know what you're talking about. I don't know who this person is. I'm certainly not debating him.

Okay, so Let's let you first start with your overview why. You make the case. We should not be singing Bethel music or Hill song in churches. Because that seems like that's what McKenzie is is very closely in line with your position.

So why don't we start by letting you do that?

Okay. Yeah, there's a number of reasons we shouldn't be singing Bethel or Hill song music in our churches. I'll throw in their elevation music Stephen Furtick's Church. And now there's a new one. It's called Mm the initials are in them.

Somebody may might know I can't remember like. Anyway, it's a new up-and-coming kind of a thing. And theologically of the same stripe that we're dealing with so. Yeah, a lot of reasons. Not the least of which is this is coming from a cult.

Okay, Bethel Church is a cult. Hill song is a cult. These are not biblical churches. They don't meet the biblical definition of a church. They preach a different Jesus therefore a different gospel. Bethel is word of faith slash new apostolic Reformation and the only difference between word of faith and NAR is really in their eschatology.

NAR is more kind of a Postmillennial on steroids they get into the Dominion Theology stuff whereas word of faith most of word faith folks would be Primo and they at least they got their eschatology. At least they got their eschatology, right?

But But yeah, these are cults. They have a different Jesus. They have a different God different Jesus different atonement different gospel and Mackenzie Morgan's article was good. Now. I don't know who she is either all I know is what you just reiterate that she's a Worship leader at some church in Tallahassee, but other than that, I don't know but she was right in what she said about Bethel and Hillsong.

Sam Storms wrote a response that got a lot of a lot of traction and Sam Storms for those who don't know Sam Storms is is a Theologian a pastor who would share our view of the sovereignty of God in salvation.

He holds a high view of God's sovereignty and salvation Calvinism if you want to call it that. But he is a charismatic. He does believe that the sign gifts continue to be in operation today. So he is a charismatic and I would in us here.

We would enthusiastically disagree with him on that enthusiastically, so but The fact that he is a charismatic I think Explains why he has such a gaping hole in his discernment because once you take a charismatic position the Sufficiency of Scripture by definition is out the window.

It's gone. You cannot hold to the charismatic position and the sufficiency of Scripture at the same time. But Sam Storms wrote a response to Mackenzie Morgan's article and one of the points that Mackenzie Morgan made is that What I just said that Bethel is a cult.

They preach a different gospel and she said I encourage people Paraphrasing here because I don't have in front of me. But in her article she said I encourage people to examine the doctrine of Bethel music in our Bethel Church in Hillsong and so Sam Storms said this and I quote so I did just that Bethel statement of faith is profoundly evangelical in the Orthodox and Consistent with the historic creeds of Christianity they affirm the Trinity the inspiration and authority of the Bible the incarnation and virgin birth of Jesus Christ his substitutionary death on the cross bodily resurrection and Ascension into heaven they explicitly declare that Jesus is true God and true man.

So Sam Storms pushes back and he says well, I did that I went to their website I looked at their statement of faith and guess what? They're thoroughly biblical thoroughly evangelical. And so that is one of his arguments for For his position that it is perfectly fine to sing Bethel music in Hillsong and To that I would say and Andrew we talked about this Before the program started kind of backstage to that.

I would say It's I would encourage people to look at statements of faith they can be helpful. But unfortunately most churches their statements of faith their doctrinal statements are nothing more than a copied and pasted Christianity statement of faith 101 the very basics.

Stuff they probably didn't even write it themselves. It's just copied and pasted kind of a standard typical bare minimum evangelical statement of faith. But you know what I can go to Lakewood Church pastored by Joel Osteen and his church has a Very similar statement of faith.

Yes, it would pass a basic doctrinal smell test but there's there's not much detail there and most of what is in their statement of faith a Mormon Would affirm a Mormon would affirm I don't want to talk too long Andrew if you want to jump in or Justin.

Yeah, well because I do want to go through I mean what you just hit on maybe we could just bring, you know. We're gonna go through that later. Now would be a good time. Let me let me share screen with some of with what you're saying and You know, he made the comment in in this article, you know, it's interesting.

You know here here's the thing that I thought interesting when reading this blog article. He's he is an educated individual. He should know better. It is filled with logical fallacies and the number one fallacy I see in here is what's called a red herring.

So let me define red herring. I'm sure that Pastor Justin there could turn on it over his his right shoulder and read it on his logical chart there. But a red herring argument is where you make an argument that doesn't actually answer the question being asked.

It's a distraction. It's to take you away. So what she ends up saying is and he quotes her in here As as saying that you need to look at what their doctrinal statement says. But then what they're actually what they're actually teaching and preaching which is what Justin just said.

Because doctrinal statements don't always agree with what people teach for example and Lytton had heresy had a the heresy of partialism in his doctrinal statement. Now has he ever taught that not that I know of how that got there who knows they they didn't they did change it quickly, but.

The thing is that doctrinal statements may not be what people practice and teach and she said look at what they're teaching and preaching. Okay, and he and Sam Storms acknowledged that. But the problem is Sam Storms says this quote.

I'm gonna read from his His statement so I did just that. You know. And just for a bit. Yeah, right. Okay, so so he did you read the whole that the whole paragraph though? Uh-huh. Yeah. So so I want to do this.

I want to share. Sorry, I was I was distracted when you were doing that because I was trying to figure out this debate you were having and it Was Jordan yes.

So well in in Justin's defense, he's way better-looking yeah, well.

So so. Yeah, and that makes sense to debate a Muslim. I Definitely don't picture you debating a Muslim, but so so this is Bethel's Doctrinal statement now folks. I want you to take a look at this. This basically fits as you can see this is the beginning of it and it fits on one screen.

Just just about you know, one one paragraph one sentence doesn't you know drops off. That's how long this is. This is so brief that it does not really tell you anything. I mean it has statements like we believe the Bible is inspired and only infallible authoritative Word of God.

That's it. That's all it says.

Well in that it does say a lot though.

Well, it does but here's the thing When people read doctrinal statements what they make the mistake of doing is reading it from their perspective. So when we read this when Sam Storms reads this he's reading this from his position I'm sure and saying this is orthodox and it it is.

I mean There's nothing that I saw in here that sticks out some minor Things. And Sam Storms in his article points those things out some areas of secondary issues that he disagrees with. That are in here, but he says we shouldn't Throw them out calm heretics and things like this just because it's secondary things.

Here's here is Hill songs. Hill songs fits on one page. That's how short it is. Okay, this doesn't give you a whole lot of.

Information about what they actually stand for and if I can interrupt look at what they say right there about sin. Second paragraph there, which is just one line. We believe that sin has separated each of us from God in his purpose for our lives.

Yeah, but that That's weak. Okay. Yeah sin has separated us from God, but in his purpose for our lives you see that right there that is that is so emblematic of These kind of churches. Sin is not it is never portrayed as something that you have done against God high treason against the Omnipotent God that has incurred his righteous wrath That abides on you.

It's not sins not like that. Sin is something that just Prevents it hurts you it keeps you from having your best life. Now. It just holds you back. You know, it's it's it's not it's not vertical. It's their view of sin is very horizontal.

It's a very diminished.

Insipid just watery View of sin, but anyway, I'm sorry. What does what does sin do in their in their statement there? And what does sin do all it all it does is separate you from God's purpose, right?

Right, and so that's that's definitional there. When you think about what it's saying when you think sin separates you from God's purpose. No sin is that thing that has caused it is the evidence that you are an enemy of God and God's purpose now is to glorify himself either through saving a vile wretched sinner or by glorifying himself by being just and Casting you in hell because you deserve it, but that's not being said there.

That's that's saying the purpose for your life. And it's it's it's denying the the the full truth of God's. You know of God's entire purpose. It's it's it's what it was doing is it's actually casting a Shadow on the who God is in his person because God in his person Will judge because he is good not because he's angry at you because you're not as good as him.

You're wicked and your sin is the evidence of that and I think that's that's more than just a little off. It's way up and.

Sam Storms has issue with this statement from Bethel which says we believe in Victorious redemption. Work of Christ on the cross provides freedom from the power of the enemy. Sin lies sickness and torment.

So he says that's a secondary issue now. We're gonna get into this one more later on because this is this for Justin Peters to unpack this is gonna be a lot but He says this is secondary. Well, when you understand what Bethel means by this, it's not secondary.

It becomes a primary issue, but I just I just again Want to look want to give you the example when when he says why look at these doctrinal statements. Here's the doctrinal statement of Bethel. Here's the doctrinal statement of Hillsong.

So so let's take a look here's the doctrinal statement for striving for eternity, this is just the section on Holy Scriptures. Here's here's the section. I got the section on God. The God the Father Son and Spirit fits is longer Than the entire doctrinal statement for either Hillsong or Bethel.

This is just the section on God and loaded with scripture, by the way filled with scripture.

Yeah in the section on angels is longer than either of their statements. This man Soteriology that one's much longer than either of theirs. The the church is longer than theirs. Any one of these topics the end times is longer than theirs.

Here's Justin Peters. This this is so so the striving fraternities doctrinal statement is gonna be 10 to 12 pages long. Justin Peters is 4 to 6 pages long. Where the others are just one page you see a difference here when you get into this with with Justin's.

You have things like hermeneutics defined something. You were just talking about. Mr. Justin, right? He he explains this. He explains creation. This is giving definition to things not just a one-line statement.

This is what we believe. Now in a doctrinal statement like this from Justin Peters ministries You can dig in to say this is what he believes you can have a clear understanding of what he believes on different positions.

This is the Ulysses that. Anything goes now before you say anything Justin. Yeah, I do Justin Peters and I wanted to I said I wanted to look at this one. Here's here's another doctrinal statement a little bit shorter.

But is there anything wrong with this. This is the core beliefs of this church. God loves you as a unique child of God. You are loved immensely By your heavenly father. He is the father of your spirit.

All humanity belongs to his family as a loving parent. He knows you is aware of your challenges and wants you to have a strong relationship with him through prayer you can talk to him he will hear you and Listen and if you listen in return, he will provide answers inspiration and comfort.

That sounds fine, right?

Don't don't I gotta ask. I gotta ask you a question. No, no, no. Is that a universalist church?

We're gonna get to it. Okay. The second core belief is Jesus is our Savior. So Steven Furtick. We all need help in life. We face trials have questions we make mistakes. This is why we need Jesus Christ.

He is the he is the Son of God and our loving Savior. His perfect example shows us the way to live. His teachings give us direction. But most importantly he suffered and died for our sins. So we could be forgiven when we repent through him.

We can find lasting happiness and look forward to living again with God someday. Now this is important because this is the type of language that Sam Storm said with both Bethel and Hillsong. Why they're not heretical.

They have an orthodox view. This would be many would see this as they have no problem with it. Life has purpose. The third one. You are born for a reason. Life can be difficult sometimes. But we are here to find happiness and help others do the same your Heavenly Father knows.

That you learn and grow and become like him. You'd be but you'd come to earth receive a physical body and as an opportunity to make choices for yourself. If we choose to follow his plan. Sometimes referred to as a plan of salvation or a plan of happiness.