Zaynab bint Jash and the Qur'an

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line

The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence

Our host is dr. James White director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now at 602 973 460 to or toll -free across the

United States. It's 1 877 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 And now with today's topic here is

James White And good morning. Welcome to the dividing line on a Tuesday morning

Hopefully going to be having a special guest here on the air soon hasn't called yet hint hint hint, so If not, then

I don't know what we'll do but we'll come up with something There's the phone ring now

Before we do that, however, just in case you didn't see it on the blog Tomorrow I'm sorry a week and one hour from today a week and one hour from today

I will be on iron sharpens iron Doing a two -day

Hope it's today. I mean, I'm gonna have to say some pretty strong things the first day But hopefully a two -day debate with Harold camping now some of you don't have any

Earthly idea who Harold camping is and that's good. That's okay but a lot of you do and In those places where family radio has had an impact and Harold camping's false teachings have had an impact then

You know why I'm going to take the time to dig out my stuff even wrote a book about Harold camping back in 2002 called dangerous airwaves

After his false prophecy of 1994 He muddled along for a while and then around the 2000 or so.

He started teaching That the church age had ended and that you were to flee the churches

The Holy Spirit is no longer converting anyone in a church. You cannot get saved in a Christian Church today according to Harold camping

There is no baptism. There is no Lord's Supper. Those are all ceremonial laws that were related only to the church the church age has ended and So when

I wrote the book that was as far as he had gone since then, of course now He's come up in the new false prophecy of the end of the world in 2011 now the world could end in 2011, but not because Harold camping has any idea

I mean, I've been told that the Mayans Predicted 2012 and we've got a

Russian guy. That's Figures the United States is over in 2010. So hey, you know, you could find somebody someplace

There's always somebody predicting every year. So somebody's eventually get it, right? But anyway

For some reason he has agreed to be on iron sharpens iron over the next over those two days on Tuesday and Wednesday of next week and It's gonna be interesting

I can guarantee you right now that I will say at least three to four times as many words as Harold camping

Well, even if we have exactly equal amounts of time That's going to be very very frustrating because if I ask him anything we know what he wants to do

Well, we see in the Bible that when we look at John 21 we see that there are two ships and We know that these represent the church, you know, and it's so it's gonna be

I'm gonna have to Be very patient But I'm gonna be very straightforward, too

Because Harold camping is the perfect example of how a cult gets started. He's a cult leader His interpretations determine what his followers believe and I've seen camping it's they're scary people.

They are very very scary people Almost any Reformed Baptist Church Presbyterian Church has had camping it's come through the door and they've got this odd look on their face and They just well, that's not what brother camping says and I guess it comes from Listening to him speak for hours and hours and end eventually you just you know, it's it's a sad thing

But the only reason I'm doing it is obviously is not because I wrote a book about the guy but because the issue is the church and he attacks the church and therefore needs to be responded to so Next Tuesday and Wednesday on iron sharpens iron, which means

I'm seriously thinking about next Tuesday running the audio of my

Seminar on camping in the place of dividing line because I would literally have to go straight from here run into the other room dial the phone and sit down just you know at two straight hours and That might not be the wisest thing to do.

It might be better to We track down I digitized yesterday the the video

And I just posted on YouTube. It became public this morning the hour and a half

Seminar that I did at Grace Reformed Baptist Church in Merrick on Long Island back in 2002 2003 to forget what the exact date was

On this on Herald camping so that is available and we just may play that Next week,

I'm not sure we'll see but so keep that in your prayers and put that on your calendar

I'm sure you'll find it to be and Interesting encounter because it will be an encounter focused upon how you interpret scripture

Harold camping uses numerology and all sorts of other silly things like that and We will try to be exposing those things not easy to do with someone who basically thinks he's getting, you know

This straight from God. So sort of like debating Gil Rippling or something like that, but it should prove to be interesting

Today as we have announced on the blog, we are going to be doing something that is going to be somewhat challenging to the listener

I challenge you to stay tuned and to listen all the way through and to Maybe put aside some of the distractions that you normally would have around you so that you can hear

What it is that we have to say when when we engage the text of the

Bible We are able to go back into history and to provide a context for our interpretation of the text of the

Bible when we follow the the life of Jesus and We are told that certain things happened in certain areas

We're able to locate these areas on a map and we're able to know something about the backgrounds the time of Jesus life

When John writes to the seven churches We're able to go back and identify these churches.

And if you've ever listened to good sermons on the seven churches, you will know that the writer clearly knows those churches and knows the cultural and political background of those churches themselves and So he will make reference to things that that the people in those churches

Would know and understand in other words when we engage the scriptures the Bible Old and New Testament in the vast majority of instances

We can place the text in history and we can know something about the language and we can know something about the events and this

Helps us to contextualize and understand the scriptures without having to be constantly referring to Some other allegedly inspired source to tell us what's really going on One of the problems when we turn to the

Quran is that in the vast majority of instances you cannot do that yes, there are theories as to You know, what would the background of this particular surah was and things like that, but it is very rare when you have sufficient historical background to really engage a particular portion of the

Quran and place it into a Context and therefore analyze it and one of those places is found in the 33rd surah and the story of Muhammad Zayed and Zainab bin

Josh and so to discuss that with me today Calling in I think probably from Chicago is

Sam Shimon. Hey, Sam. Hey, dr. White. How are you? I'm fine. I guess the better question is how are you because Understand that you you are recently married and and so we just want to make sure that you're doing great

But a grace to God it's going smooth, but being on the show. I'm nervous. So I'm more nervous being on the show than being married well,

I'm not sure what that means, but we'll we'll let your wife figure that part out, but so so you're but you're

You have faced some of the some of the greatest Apologists Islam has to offer.

I mean you have been on the same stage with with neither Yeah, that was an honor and privilege for me to debate the world's greatest

Muslim scholar That's right in his own mind. Anyways, but I hate at least he gave his entire opening statement with you

I only got seven minutes That was incredible anyway

Let's get to something meaningful here and A lot of folks have been wondering and in fact,

I saw someone in channel going asking. What is a Zainab? So a lot of folks have no idea and there aren't very many webcasts around the world that would be spending any time whatsoever talking about Zainab bint

Josh, but As I introduced it, it does seem to me that the story of Zainab is one of the most important stories

That we can familiarize people with because it seems to shine a a rare yet bright light upon not only the character of Muhammad, but the the nature of Divine revelation that comes on the fly shall we say?

And in fact, you may have the quote there in front of you, but off the top of my head. I know that Aisha in the hadith said something along the lines of In reference to this situation that it seems that Allah rushes to give revelations to Muhammad And obviously once we tell people the story here

They'll probably see why why she said things like that, but most of our audience has no earthly idea

Who in the world Zainab bint Josh was so let's lay a real brief summary here

Why why are we talking about a woman who has been dead for 1400 years?

It's vitally important to know she is because without knowing who she is you can't make heads or tails out of chapter 33 of the

Quran verses 36 and 37 not just verse 37, but 36 Zainab bint

Josh was a relative of Muhammad Muhammad insisted and commanded Mary Excuse me as a it had been had if I now who is a it well according to Muslim sources

Zayed was a slave of Muhammad's first wife Khadija bint. Khalid His first wife who was 15 years his senior.

He was 25 when he married her She was 40 and she was a wealthy merchant. So she gave Zayed as a slave to Muhammad according to the

Muslim sources Zayed's parents his dad and his uncle I should say came to Mecca to emancipate him to redeem him to set him free

Muhammad told the dad and the uncle well, it's up to Zayed let Zayed choose the Muslim sources say that Zayed chose to remain a slave of Muhammad then be freed and returned with his family and that shocked his dad and his uncle because of that Muhammad went before the

Kaaba in Mecca Saudi Arabia and Announced to the people that Zayed has been freed and I take him as my son

So Muhammad pretty much adopted Zayed as his son and from that moment on this is long before Muhammad became a so -called prophet.

This is before his prophetic ministry began from that moment on Zayed was called

Zayed Ibn Muhammad Zayed the son of Muhammad Now when you go to chapter 33 verses 36 to 37

The context is dealing with the fact that Muhammad insisted that Zaynab marry Zayed she didn't want to she hesitated

But if you read chapter 33 verse 36, it says this and this is in response to Zaynab's refusal to marry

Zayed and you can look at any commentator of the Quran whether Ibn Kathir or Tabari and they will all tell you the same thing

The verse says it is not fitting for a believer man or woman When a matter has been decided by Allah and his

Apostle to have any option about their decision So here Muhammad pretty much told

Zaynab. It's not up to you Once Allah and I have decided a matter you have to just agree. So you forced her to marry

Zayed However shortly after that according to the Muslim sources Muhammad went to visit

Zayed at home now this is according to Tabari Qutubi these great renowned Muslim scholars who love

Muhammad and would have no reason to make up a story to impugn Muhammad's character

He went to visit Zayed didn't find Zayed but saw Zaynab and she wasn't veiled and according to the sources

Zaynab heard Muhammad say praise be to God who turns the hearts and From that comment she gathered that Muhammad found her attractive and that kind of excited her

So then when Zayed came home They asked what had happened and she mentioned that Muhammad came and Zayed asked well, did you invite him in?

She goes well, no, he didn't want to come in But this is what he said the sources say that Zayed realized that Muhammad desired her

So he went to Muhammad and said listen, I'll divorce her if you want to marry her Muhammad said no keep your wife because he was ashamed of the consequences of marrying his adopted son's wife

But then a verse came down chapter 33 verse 37 Saying that it was Allah who decreed this marriage between Muhammad and Zayed's wife

So that when Zayed divorced her Muhammad was supposed to marry her That's the context of these passages, right?

Right. So, I mean I can continue Let me let me just a couple things. Let's make sure everybody's following now going back to what you said when this

Adoption takes place as far as we can tell up to this point in time the the

Arabs had a similar view of adoption that we would see maybe in in the

Old Testament or things like that it Existed and it was it was an important thing and that's reflected in the fact that he was called

Zayed bin Muhammad bin Muhammad The the son of Muhammad so one of the things we're gonna bring out here over time is that this story we're telling you and We're counting it's not only important as to who

Muhammad was and the concept of the Quran coming down and the idea These are this has been written in Arabic from eternity past and all the rest of these things

But you see you will be able to see from this story how the exaltation of the actions of Muhammad and the

Quran itself Impact culture and have impacted culture ever since in an imp continued impact

Islamic cultures to this day And we'll see that in just a moment. So he goes before the

Kaaba now at this time the Kaaba would be a Polygamist not polygamist a polytheistic

House filled with idols there in Mecca according to tradition at house 360 idols, right exactly and so he

Announces that That Zayed has been set free But he is in essence adopting him as as his own son

And this takes place a number of years after that so that so obviously for a period of time

This was Zayed's. This is how Zayed was seen by the people around him was as the adopted son of Muhammad.

So As you mentioned we have this this situation where Muhammad visits

Zayed's home. He is not there. He sees Zaynab Obviously not wearing a full hijab.

She's not veiled and evidently from all the sources I've read this woman is extremely attractive and Muhammad says something and Some people give some words and some people sort of say that it was hard to understand what he was saying or something along those lines, but evidently it was something along the lines of Wow except in Arabic and so now

I've read a lot of some Islamic discussions about this and they've made much of what you had mentioned and that is that Muhammad had

Commanded this this particular marriage and That it must not have been a good marriage for Zayed to immediately come to Muhammad and say hey

I'll divorce her if you want to marry her especially because that was already Culturally considered a no -no wasn't it?

Yeah precisely in fact They started mocking mom and after he had married Zaynab when

Zayed had divorced her right they started mocking him That's according to the commentators. Yes, so You have and and this is this is not uncommon for a number of the surahs in in the

Quran This is not like someone sat down and wrote it out all all at once one day you have

Parts that are that are put together and so you have verse 36

Which reflects as you said this this? Absolutism of you know once Allah and his

Apostle have spoken. Hey, you don't there's no there's no room for argument left you you do what you're supposed to do, but then immediately after that we have verses 37 through 38 and This then seemingly according to the sources comes down after this mockery begins

Correct exactly that's uh well. Let me rephrase that and 37 was sent down To justify

Muhammad's marriage with Zayed because they had went ahead and divorced her anyway even though Muhammad was embarrassed

Insisted saying no don't do that keep your wife. He went ahead did it anyway, so then the passage came down saying okay

Muhammad This is what we plan to start with This was our plan for you to marry her go ahead and marry her because we want to set an example

For other people to marry their adopted sons divorcees so this marriage was supposedly supposedly a precedent

It was going to set a precedent for others to marry their adopted sons divorcees, okay? Let me go ahead and read let me read this for everybody so we we have it

Here here's the citation and when you said to him This is ayah 37 of surah 33 and when you said to him to whom

Allah had shown favor and to whom You had shown a favor keep your wife to yourself and be careful of your duty to Allah And you can sealed in your soul what

Allah would bring to light and you feared men and Allah had a greater right that you should fear him

When Zayed had accomplished his want of her he gave her to you as a wife

So there should be no difficulty for the believers in respect of the wives of their adopted sons

When they have accomplished their want of them and Allah's command shall be performed There is no harm in the

Prophet doing that which Allah has ordained for him Such has been the course of Allah with respect to those who have gone before and the command of Allah is a decree that is

Made absolute surah 33 ayahs 37 through 38 So the first thing is keep your wife to yourself and be careful of your duty to Allah And you can sealed in your soul, but Allah would bring to light and you feared men

What what is that referring to? Well, I'm according to the Muslim expositors Muhammad started desiring

Zaynab and yet he knew this was embarrassing because she was married to his adopted son. In fact, according to one of the commentators

Al -Tabari in his history. It's called history of Al -Tabari Volume 8 in English. It's translated in English volume 8.

Here's a quotation of what Zayed said to Muhammad After Zaynab had reported to him what

Muhammad had said praise be to God who turns the hearts It says they had left and having come to the messenger of God.

He said Messenger of God I have heard that you came to my house Why didn't you go in you are as dear to me as my father and mother now notice what he's going to say here

Messenger of God perhaps Zaynab has excited your admiration and so I will separate myself from her

So here Zayed realized that Muhammad started having feelings for her and was willing out of his love for Muhammad to divorce her and Muhammad Said no.

No, so if we go by the Muslim commentators what Muhammad was concealing in his heart was his desires for a married woman

But this was orchestrated by Allah because Allah wanted Muhammad to marry her Again to set precedents for others to do likewise in the case of their adopted children divorcing their spouses

Now he's afraid of the shame, you know people mocking him which happened actually after he married her people started mocking him

So the mockery began after this passage was supposedly sent down They started saying look Muhammad married his son's wife and yet he forbids others to do so, right, right

Okay, so the marriage takes place Now some have you know, those sources say that you know

Zayed immediately goes to him other sources Likewise indicated that Zaynab once she knew that the

Prophet desired her Was desirous of going that direction as well

I mean, it's it's a pretty powerful position to be the the wife of the messenger of Allah.

So you've got a No matter what else happens here. And as you know, we got plenty of time.

We don't have to rush There's a bunch of problems here We're gonna get to as it comes up, but no matter what else comes up after this

Just the impact on one's view of marriage that is that is clear at this point is

Truly amazing. I mean, I mean the the sub -christian view of marriage that is seen right here the sub -christian view of women of wives that is seen in this material up to this point and Again, I just remind folks most

Muslims believe these words Are eternal they've written in Arabic in eternity past and I'm sitting here going

I think a lot of folks in in the audience are probably going wait a minute This sounds like something Joseph Smith would pull

I mean this there are a lot of parallels between this and section 132 of the

Doctrine and Covenants Where we know that Joseph was already practicing polygamy before he ever gave the 132nd section and even when he wrote it down, he knew what

Emma was going to do once she saw it and At least one story says that when one of the

Apostles took section 132 to Emma She ran him out of the house and beat him with the brooms

So, I mean, you know, it's This isn't the first time this type of stuff's happening

So it just strikes me that already we just need to keep in mind all the ramifications this has so the mockery begins

Then what happens? well after Muhammad married

Zaynab the people started saying, you know, what kind of prophet is this he marries his son's Divorcee in fact just before I even get to I just need to emphasize so that the audience understands

The according to the Muslim sources when Zaynab realized that Muhammad desired her

From that moment on she started despising her husband. In other words. It was

Muhammad's desires For Zaynab that caused Zaynab to start hating her husband and want to break free from him and this is according to Tabari So he's messing up the marriage because he cannot control his desires for a married woman.

Anyway, the divorce happens He marries her people start mocking him he married his son's wife or divorcee and all of a sudden

Allah sends down verses 4 and 5 of chapter 33 33 verses 4 and 5 and verse 40 and then abolishes adoption altogether

This is what happened now Notice what the dilemma here and 33 37 the reason why

Allah decreed that Muhammad would marry Zaynab To set the precedence for other people to marry their adopted children's divorcees

However, when Muhammad started to get mocked by the unbelievers for this marriage

Allah all of a sudden abolishes adoption So that what kind of precedence does this set?

Exactly. Yeah verse 40 Muhammad is not the father of any man among you but a messenger of God and the seal the prophets

God has knowledge of everything and so the The command comes down that you are not to call adopted sons after the name of their adopted father

But instead you're supposed to call them by the name of their natural father If it's known and if it's not known then you're you're you're just called one of the brethren basically

Again, the readers can confirm this for themselves by just looking at any commentary on the

Quran By Muslims such as Ibn Kathir if you read Ibn Kathir's commentary on Verses 4 and 5 and verse 40 he even admits that these passages were quote -unquote revealed

Concerning Zayed Ibn Haritha and I even have the quotation in front of me. It says this was revealed

Concerning Zayed Ibn Haritha the Prophet had adopted him before prophethood and he was known as Zayed Ibn Muhammad And then after quoting the verses and this is what it says

Zayed Ibn Muhammad the freed servant the messenger of Allah was always called Zayed Ibn Muhammad son of Muhammad until The words of the

Quran were revealed and he quotes verses 4 and 5 and then later on in his commentary He mentions that verse 40 also was composed in reference to this situation because he says in his commentary in verse 40

Muhammad is not the father of any of your men After this it was not permitted to say

Zayed son of Muhammad So the Muslim scholars the commentators expositors have no shame admitting these passages were composed specifically

To abolish adoption in order to save Muhammad from embarrassment because they kept mocking him

You're a prophet. How dare you take your son's divorcee? What kind of moral example are you setting?

So these passages were sent down saying well Zayed is not my son So I really didn't take my son's wife because he's not my son, right?

And let me let me just read sir 33 4 and 5 God has not provided two hearts in the breast of a man

Nor made your wives whom you pronounce mothers in order to divorce them You're real mothers nor as he made your adopted sons.

You're real sons This is only what your lips pronounce God says what is just and shows the right way call them by the names of their fathers

This is the right course in the sight of God if you do not know their fathers They are then your brothers in religion and your friends

It will not be a sin if you make a mistake unless you do so intentionally for God is forgiving and kind So now of course a couple of things.

I mean, I've often noted that when people in the West Try to read the

Quran They are hop skipping back and forth between different Parts of Muhammad's life with such regularity that it would be next to impossible

To come up with any meaningful understanding if you don't know the backgrounds of these things and so if you just read

Sir I'm not Madani there and you just started to beginning which is where most people do you're gonna have this abolishment of Adoption and then you get down to 36 37 and you're gonna read about Allah establishing something about Divorced Wives of your adopted children.

Yeah, which makes absolutely no no sense whatsoever and I Just wonder how many

Muslims have ever read that and gone What's what's what's going on there doesn't make a lot of sense hold on right there

Sam We're gonna take our break and continue on I'll put you on hold here and continue on with Sam Shamoon We're talking about Zainab bin

Josh the giving of the Quran adoption and everything else. We'll be right back here on the divine Bible works 8 is here full of innovative and essential tools users will have a hundred and ninety plus Bible translations 35 original language text and morphology databases 29 lexical grammatical references and an abundance of additional resources

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Thank you And welcome back to the dividing line today on the program we are not seeking to entertain we are seeking to Educate and joining me in that effort today is

Sam Shamoon calling in to the program we are discussing the historical situation behind the giving of certain

Portions of the 33rd surah of the Quran and that is the story of Zainab bint

Josh We had gotten to the point where we have worked through the text now, especially ayahs 4 & 5 40

Where in essence you have this glowing internal contradiction?

Presented by the Quran where in one place the Idea is presented that Allah has preordained this event so that the people would

Gladly or would not fear to marry the Divorced spouses of their adopted children, which in and of itself just makes you shudder.

But anyway, but then In the same in the same surah you have adoption being destroyed being being done away with in essence and This has had a tremendous impact upon Islamic culture down through the centuries as it not

It does in fact on the basis of those passages Muslims do not adopt children

So you may have Muslim children orphaned But we'll never know what it's like to call someone father or mother because Islam does not allow for adoption yet the

God of the Bible Delights in and adopting us as his children so that he's a spiritual father to us through faith in the

Lord Jesus Christ So yes, it has an impact not just theologically but just practically speaking all those countless number of children

Who have no parents, you know can ever call someone dad or mom because Islam does not allow adoption

Or you have Muslim parents who are barren and the only way they can have a child is if they adopt They too are robbed of the joy of holding a child and calling that child their own

It is absolutely incredible what one event one sudden statement on the part of a man who has been exalted as a messenger of God the

Millions of lives impacted as a result it truly is stunning when you when you give consideration to it now

I know that in your written works and certainly in debates and the like you have presented this story as Evidence of well, obviously it's relevant to a number of different things.

How do Muslim apologists respond to The assertion that look within one surah you have

The assertion that Allah does this so that people won't have a problem marrying the divorced spouses of their adopted children and then especially as the way the the the surah has been constructed that comes after a

Getting rid of adoption. How how do they respond to to such things? well, the the responses

I normally receive has to do with Muhammad desiring Zainab they say well, no, he didn't actually desire her

In fact, he didn't want to marry her Allah forced him to marry her Because he was going to set precedents for others to do so so they tried to defend

Muhammad's of morality so to speak that it wasn't his decision. He wasn't interested in her

In fact, I'll tell you that he had opportunities prior to that to marry her But he didn't so obviously you can't say it was

Muhammad's desires for her that led to the composition of this passage However, even if we say that even if we say it wasn't

Muhammad who desired this married woman his adopted son's wife But it was Allah's will

Number one that still doesn't absolve the fact that here you have the God of Islam destroying marriages not preserving it

All right So you still have the problem that instead of preserving a marriage Allah destroys a marriage in order to have his messenger marry her

As an example and yet the example that his messenger is supposed to set There's going to be abolished because there won't be any adoption and I've yet to hear a good response and I've been looking for it

To that to that second part of the dilemma. The fact is okay If you say Muhammad set precedents an example for others to follow

What kind of example can he be when shortly after that adoption is abolished?

I have yet to hear a good response to that part of the dilemma So I couldn't really tell you what the Muslim response is because I haven't heard any just just going on now, obviously the the the

Muslims that you and I have contact with are are not necessarily representative of your standard

Muslim population and obviously I don't know that Muslims in the United States are overly representative of Muslims in Jordan or Egypt or anyplace else

But what what percentage just I mean you may not have any idea But just just what percentage of the

Muslim people do you think have any clue? That this they know anything about the background and that this is even there in the text

Yeah I would say the great bulk of Muslims that you'll run into would be shocked to hear this information

Because many Muslims although they recite the Quran and their prayers do so in Arabic and don't understand the language, right?

So when you present these issues, the first reaction is denial most don't say no way you're making it up You're just a

Islamophobe. You hate Islam. You hate Mohammed. You're lying. You're slandering the Prophet, right? So I I would dare say the great bulk of Muslims have no clue

Concerning the reason behind these passages and would be shocked To hear that Muhammad was the cause of a divorce

Because he wanted to marry the wife of his adopted son and this was all by the decree of Allah They'd be shocked right now from there.

They'll either react in one of two ways Denial and try to find justification or by the grace of God This will plant the seed of doubt so that they can rethink whether the

Quran is truly Eternal in origin and Muhammad is the exemplar for them to follow there certainly has been in the centuries after Muhammad's death a tremendous exaltation of him

Far beyond even what I think he could have imagined during his life, even though surely there seems to be evidence of a rather exalted view of himself during his life, but but even afterwards

There is this this exaltation to where every action how he would do anything becomes the template

Upon which others are supposed to demonstrate their their faithfulness to Allah by doing things the way that Muhammad did even to the point that I understand there are some

Muslims who not only dress like Muhammad dressed but Wear the same kind of undergarments that Muhammad would have worn and things like this

I mean, there's clearly this this exaltation of him and this tendency toward that that there's some

Muslims Obviously decry the excesses of it, but still it's just it's just part of the nature of of the religion and yet it seems

That just as I've observed in Mormonism That there has been this

Concerted effort even in a brief period of time. I mean think about it Mormonism is closer to the time of its origins then

Al -Bukhari and all Muslims and Sahih Muslim are to the collection of the statements concerning Muhammad's life.

Yes So that but there has been this concerted effort to clean up the record

Shall we say and to emphasize the positives and sweep the negatives?

Under under the the rug so to speak that seems to be the case as well

With Muhammad and yet a lot of Christians just don't understand how absolutely central that person

Muhammad is to the daily life of the observant believing

Muslim In fact if I can just give you an example of how important Muhammad is to Islam the

Quran quite Explicitly says that the only religion before Allah is Islam I mean for the audience who wants to check the references they can go to chapter 3 verse 19 of the

Quran Chapter 3 verse 85 those passages speak about Islam being the only religion acceptable to Allah and the other religion

Will be rejected however You cannot be a Muslim unless you testify.

There is no God but Allah and Muhammad is his messenger in other words According to the

Quran in order to be saved you must be a Muslim But the only way you can be a Muslim is if you confess

Allah and Muhammad together in your confession of faith Now what's interesting about that is that Muslim scholars admit that the reason why

Muhammad is conjoined? with Allah and the confession of faith is because Allah deliberately set set out to make

Muhammad his partner and One of the pillars of Islamic monotheism called

Tawheed if this is not a deification of Muhammad I don't know. What is because you cannot be a

Muslim and therefore be saved Unless and until you confess Muhammad's name with Allah's name

Which is why? And I know you were listening because I heard you call in it's fascinating to listen to the

Quran only position responding to the standard Sunni Position today and those those saying that the addition of Muhammad's name

Well Muhammad and Rasool Allah to the into the Shahada because you can find the first part of the

Shahada in the Quran, but you don't find the second part and So they say look to add

Muhammad in that way is to actually engage in shirk Which would mean that?

99 % of the world's Muslims are lost from their perspective, which is probably why they'll remain a fairly small group overall but His centrality is is vital in all of these things

So we have this we have finally a historical situation now, isn't it interesting?

I was just sitting here Contemplating this in many nations in the world today if you were to Simply paraphrase or repeat the information found in in a source like Al -Tabari

Which I have sitting up on my shelf and and which is you know available in in It's available online and in Arabic and you know, the

English translations available so on and so forth If we were just to to repeat what

Al -Tabari says about this in many nations in the world today It would be enough to bring about your execution exactly and I wouldn't be having this conversation for more than a minute

Oh, no, not in not in certain places in Pakistan and Afghanistan and Saudi Arabia and so on and so forth just simply to repeat these things.

Yeah, and yet Certainly at In Riyadh someplace.

Are they not are there not universities where these things are being being read?

How How do they live with the double standard? Well, it's in the context in which you raise these points if you're in a

Muslim University and you're discussing the reasons for these passages Obviously those who are discussing them are devoted to the religion and believe

Muhammad is the greatest man who ever lived So when they're going to examine these sources, they don't do so with a critical eye

They're not doing so to raise questions concerning Muhammad's morality or Allah's morality.

This is what the messenger did He did it by orders of Allah. That's good enough for me case closed

So they don't allow objective analysis of the sources or to even question of the justice the morality behind such actions because You cannot question

Muhammad's morality He is the perfect man and in Sun and camel the perfect man period and we know everything he did he did by Wahi meaning revelation inspiration

Therefore to question his morality is to question the morality and justice of Allah And that means that you have unbelief in your heart and therefore should be executed

So although they're discussing these sources in Muslim universities They're doing so in the context that these are not questionable aspects of Muhammad or Allah These are aspects that we accept and even though we may not fully understand the justice or morality behind them

We know that Allah and his messenger know better than us and that's good enough for us So that's the context by which these sources are read.

Yeah, so what this illustrates I think people need to stand you and I encounter it all the time

When we are debating Especially I've found converts

Who call themselves Christians? It's funny when you start listening to them I know you recently listened to a debate that I listened to that our friend

Nabil Qureshi engaged in Last I think it was last week with a quote -unquote former

Christian He I'm not sure if you're aware of this But he was the one who moderated my debate with Adnan Rashid in London last

November. So I had I had met him and Calm down some

Congress sit down Sam But anyway

Nabil was in this debate with this man on the and a lot of discussion of Christology and things like that I found it fascinating that even in his opening statement

He made it clear that as a quote -unquote Christian He had in essence rejected the deity of Christ, even though he was in a

Baptist Church, and I'm just like what? What are you talking about?

And and so these these alleged converts very frequently when you dig a little bit You find out that they they didn't know much about what they were allegedly talking about in the first place

But anyway, you and I both deal with these folks and they love to quote the liberals

I mean, I remember for years you would write to me before I ever encountered Shabir Ali and you'd be saying this guy's quoting this and this guy's quoting that and and Once I really started listening to Shabir and in preparation for the

Biola debate in 2006 You know, it was like being back at Fuller Theological Seminary.

I mean, I mean these guys know the liberals real real well and here's where there's a

Disconnect is that you are not gonna find Islamic liberals teaching in Saudi Arabia as soon as they as some some

Intellectual raises a question. Look what happened the guy in Germany. Yeah, okay

But he's he's not you know, that's Germany. That's not Saudi Arabia. That's not Egypt.

That's not Jordan These these people if if they come to these these conclusions basically have to flee

Exactly. You have to be in hiding. Yes. Well, even in Western countries, you'd have to be in hiding and so Though there are people that see these things they either disappear and are never heard of again

Or they remain silent. We don't kill our liberals. We debate our liberals

And so there's this huge body of literature that we have to deal with and Demonstrate its fundamental presuppositional nature and so on and so forth and There are orientalists that they just dismiss out of hand who are non -muslims living in the

West who? Produce similar literature about the Quran or about Muhammad or whatever else it might be and I'm not saying we just uncritically grab hold of anything that a liberal says about Islam either we need to be consistent at that point, but The fact is they don't have to they don't have we have the

Jesus seminar I dare there could not possibly be a Muhammad seminar if you know what

I mean I mean, can you imagine a bunch of liberal Muslims getting together and Voting on various surahs by throwing marbles in the back.

Yeah, I mean the Taliban would come to the door of the ak -47s blazing It just wouldn't be around.

So so there is a fundamental difference in The the literature that is available and it just strikes me as being extremely inconsistent when folks utilize

Liberal Christian sources when there could be liberal

Islamic sources, but the very Religion and state of Islam does not actually allow that kind of critical

Examination be going on and another thing that disturbs me about the Muslim apologist is that they don't allow us to define

What conservative scholarship is? Oh, then exactly. Yeah. Yeah. I mean like the gentleman you're talking about He kept passing off James DG done as a conservative, right?

I mean in whose book not in my book I mean if you're telling me that there's evolution in the New Testament and that the

Gospels Gospel writers contradicted one another and there's not one uniform message. I mean, how do you qualify that as conservative scholar?

Well, at least at least in the United Kingdom, he would be but look at the United Kingdom. I Mean, that's that's the problem is is that you know,

I mean, how do you define these things? I was listening. I don't know if you heard it, but there

I don't know if you're the unbelievable radio program where Oh Abdul Haq are you familiar with that name?

Yes. Okay before Nicaea Did you hear when the Christian? Scholar took him on on the unbelievable radio program.

They really they replayed it recently. I'd look at the archives You'll you would enjoy it. It went really well but here you had a

British intellectual responding to Abdul Haq and it was just I Would love to be on the program with Abdul Haq myself.

I'm gonna let Justin barely know that I think that would be great But it was so clear

To hear the the glowing double standard and I keep looking for people who don't who won't do that and To be honest with you

The only people that I've found so far who won't do that are the same people who would say well I really can't discuss

Christianity with you at all because I don't know enough about it to speak intelligently on it And I can at least give them credit first for you know being willing to say that and saying, you know,

I Admit that's not my area. I can't go there But the others who do make you know

Large sweeping comments about Christianity and you challenge them on it the double standard that well

What has beat what has become I think I can claim credit for having introduced one phrase

That by the way, I think I heard you use But I introduced one phrase into the current

Christian apologetic scenes in regards to Islam and that is Inconsistency is the sign of a failed argument.

I was about to trademark that Except that we've got video evidence of me using it before you did so But yeah, it just it just seems to me that No matter what these these guys do and they can be as conservative as the day is long

But they simply cannot apply the same standards to their own religious belief that they apply to ours and That you know, it speaks volumes to us and if they have any real concern about actually reaching

Any of us then it should concern them and you know We can only hope that the Spirit of God causes eyes to be open to see those types of things

I had a grace to God. Yeah Williams is an example of that the gentleman you're referring to and one of the articles he attacks

The parallel accounts in the synoptics and and yet when it was brought to his attention that the

Quran Also mentions the same story and more than one place with major verbal contradictions and variations his responses

Well, that's how Allah decided to inspire it. Well, there you go. Thank you. I mean that is exactly as you may know

I invited Osama Abdullah to call the program because I listened to his

Recent encounter with Nabil Qureshi and he was throwing out the the issues of the

Inscriptions on the cross and I just wanted I would love to hear one of these guys

Make that argument say if it is not in the exact same words, it cannot be inspired.

Okay, you've laid out your standard now explain to me these things from the

Quran and I Can't get anybody to do it It's it and they have to know well, okay,

I'll take that back Osama might not know about it, but so he knows I brought it to his attention on the website. So he knows that okay

All right, that's why he's avoiding it. Okay. I see. Well, then you ruined my opportunity to put him on the program. Thanks a lot but I have a picture of Shabir and I in London and he's kneeling next to my

Mac and He's writing something down. It was the Quranic parallels list that I had on my desktop

And here's a third -year PhD student in Quranic interpretation writing that list down well, and I just go

I The standards just I don't understand it.

I don't understand why we have to Be ready for any possible synoptic parallel But they're quoting the

Quran in Arabic and they don't seem to see that it would be absolutely necessary to apply the same standards there

Yeah, in fact, it would be more damaging against the Quran because the Quran comes from one source exactly Exactly.

That's the other thing. I tried to point out. Is it look at least I can give you a meaningful explanation Given my understanding of what inspiration is and the fact that God uses multiple authors men speak from guys

They're carried along by the Holy Spirit and that makes perfect sense But why if you have only one author and this is written in Arabic in eternity past Would you have these variations and I I don't

I I don't get responses I didn't get a response when I showed the changes between Ibn Masud's readings and those of the

Uthmanic recension in in New York a few weeks ago, by the way, we haven't mentioned this because I haven't gotten the date yet but Imam Shams Ali has agreed to a second debate later this year in in the

New York area on Jesus in the Quran in the Bible Yeah, which obviously

Especially since he rendered surah 4157 the way he did by memory

Will be able to focus upon the substitutionary theory I've been trying to find someone to debate who is a meaningful debater who?

Defends the substitutionary theory in in surah 4157 as you know

That's not Shabir's position. He knows better But that may get to happen hopefully in early

November So I'll try to come up for that one. Yeah, that would be very very enjoyable. So anyway, well

Sam I very much appreciate your taking the time out of your day to be with us today and to help us with this story and to Hopefully, you know, we've just got to keep educating

Christians about these issues And I think it's a pretty pretty neat that we have still have these freedoms to do this

And I figure we better do it while we've got the freedom to do it. Amen, because in Western cultures today

I just don't I just don't know how can how can folks get hold of you if you want them to get?

Best way to get me is just go to the website answering dash Islam org and They'll find individual authors my name there

Okay, and they'll say see my email and they can contact me from there and I pretty much screen my email so if you really want to get my attention say something that's nice and that's just praiseworthy just Pop up my head a little bigger than what it is, and then

I'll respond All righty, Sam. Thank you very much for being with us today. God bless you. All right. God bless

All right. Well, I do very much appreciate the assistance in presenting that information

It is I think extremely important that that we understand these things and I think we tried to be fair I mean, what were the sources that we were quoting were we quoting liberals?

No, I'll top it. I'll cut to me Those are not those are the classic tough seer sources

Those are Muslim sources that we were quoting and they're conservative Believing Muslim sources.

There's the difference. We try to be consistent. Like I said next week Coming up right now exactly one week from now the debate with Harold camping on iron sharpens iron, but we'll be here on Thursday See you then.

God bless We need

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