Zaynab bint Jash and the Qur'an

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James White director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now. It's 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll-free across the United States. It's one eight seven seven seven five. Three three three four one and now with today's topic.

Here is James White.

Harold Camping, False Prophecy, and the Coming Debate

And good morning. Welcome to the dividing line on a Tuesday morning. Hopefully going to be having a special guest here on the air soon hasn't called yet. Hint hint hint, so. If not, then I don't know what we'll do but we'll come up with something but there's the phone ring now.

Before we do that, however, just in case you didn't see it on the blog Tomorrow I'm sorry a week and one hour from today a week and one hour from today I will be on iron sharpens iron. Doing a two-day.

Hope it's today. I mean, I'm gonna have to say some pretty strong things the first day but hopefully a two-day debate with Harold camping now some of you don't have any Earthly idea who Harold camping is and that's good.

That's okay but a lot of you do and in those places where family radio has had an impact and Harold campings false teachings have had an impact then. You know why I'm going to take the time To dig out my stuff even wrote a book about Harold camping back in 2002 called dangerous airwaves.

After his false prophecy of 1994. He muddled along for a while and then around the 2000 or so he started teaching. That the church age had ended and that you were to flee the churches. The Holy Spirit is no longer converting anyone in a church.

You cannot get saved in a Christian Church today. According to Harold camping There is no baptism. There is no Lord Supper. Those are all ceremonial laws that were related only to the church. The church age has ended and So I when I wrote the book that was as far as he had gone since then.

Of course now he's come up in the new false prophecy of the end of the world in 2011 now the world could end in 2011, but not because Harold camping has any idea. I mean, I've been told that the Mayans Predicted 2012 and we've got a Russian guy.

That's Figures the United States is over in 2010. So hey, you know, you could find somebody someplace. There's always somebody predicting every year. So somebody's eventually get it, right? But anyway For some reason he has agreed to be on iron sharpens iron over the next over those two days on Tuesday and Wednesday of next week and It's gonna be interesting I can guarantee you right now that I will say at least three to four times as many words as Harold camping.

Well, even if we have exactly equal amounts of time. That's gonna be very very frustrating because if I ask him anything we know what he wants to do. Well, we see in the Bible that when we look at John 21 we see that there are two ships and.

And we know that these represent the church, you know, and it's so it's gonna be I'm gonna have to Be very patient. But I'm gonna be very straightforward, too. Because Harold camping is the perfect example of how a cult gets started.

He's a cult leader. His interpretations determine what his followers believe and I've seen camping it's they're scary people. They are very very scary people. Almost any Reformed Baptist Church Presbyterian Church has had camping it's come through the door and they've got this odd look on their face and They just well, that's not what brother camping says and I guess it comes from Listening to him speak for hours and hours and end eventually you just you know, it's it's a sad thing.

But the only reason I'm doing it is obviously is not because I wrote a book about the guy but because the issue is the church and he attacks the church and therefore needs to be responded to so Next Tuesday and Wednesday on iron sharpens iron, which means I'm seriously thinking about next Tuesday running the audio of my Seminar on camping in the place of dividing line because I would literally have to go straight from here run into the other room dial the phone and sit down just you know at two straight hours and That might not be the wisest thing to do.

It might be better to We track down. I digitized yesterday the the video. And I just posted on YouTube. It became public this morning the hour and a half Seminar that I did at Grace Reformed Baptist Church in Merrick on Long Island back in 2002 -2003 to forget what the exact date was on this on Herald camping so that is available and we just may play that Next week, I'm not sure we'll see but so keep that in your prayers and put that on your calendar I'm sure you'll find it to be and Interesting encounter because it will be an encounter focused upon how you interpret scripture.

Harold camping uses numerology and all sorts of other silly things like that and We will try to be exposing those things not easy to do with someone who basically thinks he's getting you know This straight from God.

So sort of like debating Gail Rippling or something like that, but it should prove to be interesting. Today as we have announced on the blog, we are going to be doing something that is going to be somewhat challenging to the listener.

I challenge you to Stay tuned and to listen all the way through and to maybe put aside some of the distractions that you normally Would have around you so that you can hear what it is that we have to say when when we engage the text of the Bible We are able to go back into history and to provide a context for our interpretation of the text of the Bible when we follow the the life of Jesus and We are told that certain things happen in certain areas.

We're able to locate these areas on a map and we're able to know something about the backgrounds the time of Jesus life. When John writes to the seven churches We're able to go back and identify these churches and if you ever listen to good sermons on the seven churches, you will know that the writer clearly knows those churches and knows the cultural and political background of those churches themselves and So he will make reference to things that that the people in those churches Would know and understand in other words when we engage the scriptures the Bible Old and New Testament in the vast majority of instances we can place the text in history and We can know something about the language and we can know something about the events and and this helps us to contextualize and understand the scriptures without having to be constantly referring to Some other allegedly inspired source to tell us what's really going on.

One of the problems when we turn to the Quran is that in the vast majority of instances you cannot do that. Yes, there are theories as to You know, what would the background of this particular surah was and things like that, but it is very rare when you have sufficient historical background to really engage a particular portion of the Quran and place it into a context and therefore analyze it and one of those places is found in the 33rd surah and the story of Muhammad Zayed and Zainab bint Josh and so to discuss that with me today.

Calling in I think probably from Chicago is Sam Shamoon. Hey, Sam. Hey, dr. White. How are you? I'm fine. I guess the better question is how are you because we understand that you You you are recently married and and so we just want to make sure that you're doing great.

But a grace to God it's going smooth, but being on the show. I'm nervous. So I'm more nervous being on the show than being married.

Well, I'm not sure what that means, but we'll we'll let your wife figure that part out, but so so you're but you're. You have faced some of the some of the greatest Apologists Islam has to offer. I mean you have been on the same stage with with neither.

Yeah, that was an honor and privilege for me to debate the world's greatest Muslim scholar. There is that's right in his own mind anyways.

But yeah, I hate at least he gave his entire opening statement with you. I only got seven minutes. Oh. That was incredible. Anyway, let's let's get to something meaningful here and A lot of folks have been wondering and in fact, I saw someone in channel going asking.

What is a Zainab? So a lot of folks have no idea and there aren't very many webcasts around the world that would be spending any time whatsoever talking about Zainab bint Josh, but As I introduced it It does seem to me that the story of Zainab is one of the most important stories that we can familiarize people with because it seems to shine a rare yet bright light upon not only the character of Muhammad, but the the nature of Divine revelation that comes on the fly shall we say and in fact you may have the quote there in front of you but off the top of my head, I know that Aisha in the hadith said something along the lines of In reference to this situation that it seems that Allah rushes to give revelations to Muhammad.

And obviously once we tell people the story here, they'll probably see why why she said things like that. But most of our audience has no earthly idea Who in the world Zainab bint Josh was. So let's lay a real brief summary here.

Why why are we talking about a woman who has been dead for 1 ,400 years?

Why do I important to know she is. Because without knowing who she is you can't make heads or tails out of chapter 33 of the Quran Verses 36 and 37 not just verse 37, but 36 Zainab bint Josh was a relative of Muhammad.

Muhammad insisted and commanded Mary Excuse me as a it had been had if I now who is a it? Well, according to Muslim sources Dave of Muhammad's first wife Khadija bint Khalid. His first wife who was 15 years his senior.

He was 25 when he married her. She was 40 and she was a wealthy merchant. So she gave Zayed as a slave to Muhammad according to the Muslim sources. Say it's parents his dad and his uncle I should say Came to Mecca to emancipate him to redeem him to set him free.

Muhammad told the dad and the uncle well, it's up to Zayed let's say it choose the Muslim sources say that they had chose to remain a slave of Muhammad then be freed and return with his family and that shocked his dad and his uncle because of that Muhammad went before the Kaaba in Mecca Saudi Arabia and Announced to the people that Zayed has been freed and I take him as my son.

So Muhammad pretty much adopted Zayed as his son and from that moment on this is long before Muhammad became a so-called prophet. This is before his Prophetic ministry began from that moment on been Muhammad Zayed the son of Muhammad.

Now when you go to chapter 33 verses 36 to 37 The context is dealing with the fact that Muhammad insisted that Zaynab marry Zayed. She didn't want to she hesitated. But if you read chapter 33 verse 36, it says this and this is in response to Zaynab's refusal to marry Zayed and you can look at any commentator of the of the Quran whether Ibn Kathir or Tabari and they will all tell you the Same thing the verse says it is not fitting for a believer man or woman.

When a matter has been decided by Allah and his Apostle to have any option about their decision. So here Muhammad pretty much told Zaynab It's not up to you once Allah and I have decided a matter you have to just agree.

So you forced her to marry Zayed however shortly after that according to the Muslim sources Muhammad went to visit Zayed at home now this is according to Tabari or to be these great renowned Muslim scholars who love Muhammad and Would have no reason to make up a story to impugn Muhammad's character.

He went to visit Zayed didn't find Zayed but saw Zaynab and she wasn't veiled and according to the sources Zaynab heard Muhammad say praise be to God who turns the hearts and From that comment she gathered that Muhammad found her attractive and that kind of excited her.

So then when Zayed came home, they asked what had happened and she mentioned that Muhammad came and Zayed asked Well, did you invite him in she goes? Well, no, he didn't want to come in. But this is what he said the sources say that Zayed realized that Muhammad desired her.

So he went to Muhammad and said listen, I'll divorce her if you want to marry her. Muhammad said no keep your wife because he was ashamed of of the consequences of marrying his adopted son's wife. But then a verse came down chapter 33 verse 37 Saying that it was Allah who decreed this marriage between Muhammad and Zayed's wife.

So that when Zayed divorced her Muhammad was supposed to marry her. That's the context of these passages, right? Right. So, I mean I can continue.

Well, let me let me just a couple things. Let's make sure everybody is following. Now going back to what you said when this Adoption takes place as far as we can tell up to this point in time the the Arabs had a similar view of adoption that we would see maybe in in the Old Testament or things like that.

It Existed and it was it was an important thing and that's reflected in the fact that he was called Zayed bin Muhammad The the son of Muhammad. So one of the things I'm we're gonna bring out here over time is that this story We're telling you and recount recounting.

It's not only important as to who Muhammad was and the concept of the Quran coming down and the idea These are this has been written in Arabic from eternity past and all the rest of these things. But you see you will be able to see from this story how the exaltation of the actions of Muhammad and the Quran itself Impact culture.

And have impacted culture ever since then and continue to impact Islamic cultures to this day. And we'll see that in just a moment, so he goes before the Kaaba. Now this time the Kaaba would be a Polygamist not polygamist a polytheistic House filled with idols there in Mecca.

According to tradition it housed 360 idols. Right exactly. And so he announces that.

That Zayed has been set free, but he is in essence adopting him as as his own son. And this takes place a number of years after that so that so obviously for a period of time This was Zayed's This is how Zayed was seen by the people around him was as the adopted son of Muhammad, so As you mentioned we have this this situation where a Muhammad visits Zayed's home.

He is not there. He sees Zaynab Obviously not wearing a full hijab. She's not veiled and evidently from all the sources I've read this woman is extremely attractive and Muhammad says something and Some people give some words and some people sort of say that it was hard to understand what he was saying or something along Those lines, but evidently it was something along the lines of Wow except in Arabic and so now I've read a lot of some Islamic discussions about this and they've made much of what you had mentioned and that is that Muhammad had Commanded this this particular marriage and That it must not have been a good marriage for Zayed to immediately come to Muhammad and say hey I'll divorce her if you want to marry her especially because that was already Culturally considered a no-no wasn't it.

Yeah precisely in fact.

They started mocking mom and after he had married Zaynab when Zayed had divorced her right they started mocking him. That's according to the commentators. Yes, so.

You have and and this is this is not uncommon for a number of the surahs in in the Quran. This is not like someone sat down and wrote it out all all at once. One day you have Parts that are that are put together and so you have verse 36.

Which reflects as you said this this? Absolutism of you know once Allah and his Apostle have spoken Hey, you don't there's no there's no room for argument left you you do what you're supposed to do. But then immediately after that we have verses 37 through 38 and.

This then seemingly according to the sources comes down after this mockery begins.

Correct. Exactly that's a well. Let me Rephrase that and 37 was sent down to justify Muhammad's marriage with Zayed because they had one hand divorced anyway. Even though Mohammed was embarrassed he insisted saying no.

Don't do that keep your wife. He went ahead did in any way so then the passage came down saying okay Muhammad. This is what we plan to start with. This was our plan for you to marry her. Go ahead and marry her because we want to set an example For other people to marry their adopted sons divorcees, so this marriage was supposedly supposedly a precedent.

It was going to set a precedent for others to marry their adopted sons divorcees, okay?

Let me go ahead and read let me read this for everybody so we we have it. Here here's the citation. And when you said to him. This is ayah 37 of surah 33. And when you said to him to whom Allah had shown favor and to whom You had shown a favor keep your wife to yourself and be careful of your duty to Allah and you concealed in your soul what Allah would bring to light and you Feared men and Allah had a greater right that you should fear him.

When Zayed had accomplished his want of her he gave her to you as a wife. So there should be no difficulty for the believers in respect of the wives of their adopted sons When they have accomplished their want of them and Allah's command shall be performed.

There is no harm in the Prophet doing that which Allah has ordained for him. Such has been the course of Allah with respect to those who have gone before and the command of Allah is a decree that is Made absolute.

Surah 33 ayahs 37 through 38. So the first thing is keep your wife to yourself and be careful of your duty to Allah and you concealed in your soul What Allah would bring to light and you feared men? What what is that referring to?

Well, I'm according to the Muslim expositors Muhammad started desiring Zaynab and yet he knew this was embarrassing because she was married to his adopted son. In fact, according to one of the commentators Al-tabari in his history.

It's called history of al-tabari Volume 8 in English. It's translated in English volume 8. Here's a quotation of what Zayed said to Muhammad. After Zaynab had reported to him what Muhammad had said praise be to God who turns the hearts.

It says they had left and having come to the messenger of God. He said Messenger of God I have heard that you came to my house. Why didn't you go in. You are as dear to me as my father and mother. Now notice what he's going to say here Messenger of God perhaps Zaynab has excited your admiration.

And so I will separate myself from her. So here Zayed realized that Muhammad's that started having feelings for her and was willing out of his love for Muhammad to divorce her and Muhammad said no. No, so if we go by the Muslim commentators what Muhammad was concealing in his heart was his desires for a married woman.

But this was orchestrated by Allah because Allah wanted Muhammad to marry her. Again to set precedence for others to do likewise in the case of their adopted children divorcing their spouses. Now he's afraid of the shame, you know people mocking him which happened actually after he married her people started mocking him.

So the mockery began after this passage was supposedly sent down. They started saying look Muhammad married his son's wife and yet he forbids others to do so, right, right.

Okay, so the marriage takes place. Now some have you know, those sources say that you know Zayed immediately goes to him. Other sources Likewise indicated that Zaynab once she knew that the Prophet desired her Was desirous of going that direction as well.

I mean, it's it's a pretty powerful position to be the the wife of the messenger of Allah. So you've got a No matter what else happens here. And as you know, we got plenty of time. We don't have to rush.

There's a bunch of problems here. We're gonna get to as it comes up. But no matter what else comes up after this Just the impact on one's view of marriage that is that is clear at this point is Truly amazing.

I mean, I mean the the sub-christian view of marriage that is seen right here the sub-christian view of women of wives that is seen in this material up to this point and Again, I just remind folks most Muslims believe these words are Eternal they've written in Arabic in eternity past and I'm sitting here going I think a lot of folks in in the audience are probably going wait a minute.

This sounds like something Joseph Smith would pull I mean this there are a lot of parallels between this and section 132 of the Doctrine and Covenants. Where we know that Joseph was already practicing polygamy before he ever gave the 132nd section and even when he wrote it down, he knew what Emma was going to do once she saw it and At least one story says that when one of the Apostles took section 132 to Emma She ran him out of the house and beat him with the brooms.

So, I mean, you know, it's This isn't the first time this type of stuff's happening. So it just strikes me that already we just need to keep in mind all the ramifications this has so the mockery begins.

Then what happens?

Well after Muhammad married Zaynab the people started saying, you know, what kind of prophet is this he marries his son's. Divorcee. In fact just before I even get to I just need to emphasize so that the audience understands.

The according to the Muslim sources when Zaynab realized that Muhammad desired her. From that moment on she started despising her husband. In other words, it was Muhammad's desires. For Zaynab that caused Zaynab to start hating her husband and want to break free from him and this is according to Tabari.

So he's messing up the marriage because he cannot control his desires for a married woman. Anyway, the divorce happens. He marries her people start mocking him he married his son's wife or divorcee and all of a sudden Allah sends down verses 4 and 5 of chapter 33 33 verses 4 and 5 and verse 40 and then abolishes adoption altogether.

This is what happened. Now. Notice what the dilemma here and 3337 the reason why Allah decreed that Muhammad would marry Zaynab is to set the precedence for other people to marry. They're adopted children's divorcees, right?

However, when Muhammad started to get mocked by the unbelievers for this marriage Allah all of a sudden abolishes adoption. So that what kind of precedence does this set?

Exactly. Yeah. Verse verse 40 Muhammad is not the father of any man among you but a messenger of God and the seal the prophets God has knowledge of everything and so the. The command comes down that you are not to call adopted sons after the name of their adopted father But instead you're supposed to call them by the name of their natural father.

If it's known and if it's not known then you're you're you're just called one of the brethren basically.

Again, the readers can confirm this for themselves by just looking at any commentary on the Quran By Muslims such as Ibn Kathir if you read Ibn Kathir's commentary on verses 4 and 5 and verse 40. He even admits that these passages were quote-unquote revealed hadith and I even have the quotation in front of me.

It says this was revealed Concerning Zayed bin Haritha the Prophet had adopted him before prophet hood. And he was known as Zayed bin Muhammad. And then after quoting the verses and this is what it says.

They've been. Muhammad the freed servant the messenger of Allah was always called Zayed bin Muhammad son of Muhammad until The words of the Quran were revealed and he quotes verses 4 and 5 and then later on in his commentary.

He mentions that verse 40 also was composed in reference to this situation because he says in his commentary in verse 40. Muhammad is not the father of any of your men. After this it was not permitted to say Zayed son of Muhammad mm-hmm.

So the Muslim scholars the commentators expositors have no shame admitting these passages were composed specifically To abolish adoption in order to save Muhammad from embarrassment because they kept mocking him.

You're a prophet. How dare you take your son's divorcee? What kind of moral example are you setting? So these passages were sent down saying well Zayed is not my son. So I really didn't take my son's wife because he's not my son, right?

And let me let me just read sir 33 4 5 God has not provided two hearts in the breast of a man. Nor made your wives whom you pronounce mothers in order to divorce them. You're real mothers nor as he made your adopted sons your real sons.

This is only what your lips pronounce. God says what is just and shows the right way. Call them by the names of their fathers. This is the right course in the sight of God if you do not know their fathers.

They are then your brothers in religion and your friends. It will not be a sin if you make a mistake unless you do so intentionally for God is forgiving and kind. So now of course a couple of things. I mean, I've often noted that when people in the West Try to read the Quran They are hop skipping back and forth between different Parts of Muhammad's life with such regularity that it would be next to impossible To come up with any meaningful understanding if you don't know the backgrounds these things and so if you just read Sir I'm not Madani there and you just started to beginning which is where most people do.

You're gonna have this abolishment of Adoption and then you get down to 36 37 and you're gonna read about Allah establishing something about Divorced Wives of your adopted children. Yeah, which makes absolutely no no sense whatsoever and I Just wonder how many Muslims have ever read that and gone.

What's what's what's going on there doesn't make a lot of sense. Hold on right there Sam. We're gonna take our break and continue on. I'll put you on hold here and continue on with Sam Shamoon. We're talking about Zainab bint Josh the giving of the Quran adoption and everything else.

We'll be right back here on the divine.

The Historical Background of Zaynab bint Jash

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The Qur'an, Adoption, and the Problem of Internal Contradiction

And welcome back to the dividing line today on the program. We are not seeking to entertain. We are seeking to educate and joining me in that effort today is Sam Shamoon calling in to the program we are discussing the Historical situation behind the giving of certain Portions of the 33rd surah of the Quran and that is the story of Zainab bint.

Josh. We had gotten to the point where we have worked through the text now, especially ayahs 4 5 40. Where in essence you have this glowing internal contradiction? Presented by the Quran where in one place the Idea is presented that Allah has preordained this event so that the people would Gladly or would not fear to marry the divorced spouses of their adopted children.

Which in and of itself just makes you shudder, but anyway, but then In the same in the same surah you have adoption being destroyed being being done away with in essence and This has had a tremendous impact upon Islamic culture down through the centuries has it not.

It does in fact on the basis of those passages Muslims do not adopt children. So you may have Muslim children orphaned. But we'll never know what it's like to call someone father or mother because Islam does not allow For adoption.

Yet the God of the Bible Delights in and adopting us as his children so that he's a spiritual father to us through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. So yes, it has an impact not just theologically but just practically speaking.

All those countless number of children Who have no parents, you know can never call someone dad or mom because Islam does not allow Adoption. Or you have Muslim parents who are barren and the only way they can have a child is if they adopt.

They too are robbed of the joy of holding a child and calling that child their own.

It is absolutely incredible what one event one sudden statement on the part of a man who has been exalted as a messenger of God the Millions of lives impacted as a result. It truly is stunning when you when you give consideration to it now.

I know that in your written works and certainly in debates and the like you have presented this story as Evidence of. Well, obviously it's relevant to a number of different things. How do Muslim apologists respond to the assertion that look.

Within one surah you have. The assertion that Allah does this so that people won't have a problem marrying the divorced spouses of their adopted children and then Especially as the way the the the surah has been constructed that comes after a getting rid of adoption.

How how do they respond to to such things? Well, the the responses I normally receive has to do with Muhammad desiring Zaynab they say well, no, he didn't actually desire her. In fact, he didn't want to marry her.

Allah forced him to marry her. Because he was going to set precedents for others to do so so they try to defend Muhammad's Morality so to speak that it wasn't his decision. He wasn't interested in her.

In fact, they'll tell you that he had opportunities prior to that to marry her, but he didn't so obviously. You can't say it was Muhammad's desires for her that led to the composition of this passage.

However, even if we say that even if we say it wasn't Muhammad who desired this married woman his adopted son's wife. But it was Allah's will. Number one that still doesn't absolve the fact that here you have the God of Islam destroying marriage is not preserving it.

Right, so you still have the problem that instead of preserving a marriage Allah destroys a marriage in order to have his messenger marry her as an example and yet the example that his messenger is supposed to set Is going to be abolished because there won't be any adoption and I've yet to hear a good response and I've been looking for it To that to that second part of the dilemma.

The fact is okay. If you say Muhammad set precedents an example for others to follow. What kind of example can he be when shortly after that adoption is abolished? I have yet to hear a good response to that part of the dilemma.

So I couldn't really tell you what the Muslim response is because I haven't heard any.

Just just going on now, obviously the the Muslims that you and I have contact with are are not necessarily representative of your standard Muslim population and obviously I don't know that Muslims in the United States are overly representative of Muslims in Jordan or Egypt or anyplace else.

But what what percentage just thought you may not have any idea. But just just what percentage of the Muslim people do you think have any clue? That this they know anything about the background and that this is even there in the text.

Yeah, I would say.

The great bulk of Muslims that you'll run into would be shocked to hear this information because Many Muslims, although they recite the Quran and their prayers do so in Arabic and don't understand the language, right?