Debate: Are Ghosts Former Humans or Demons?

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00:06

That's all that we need only sufficient, but the only thing that couldn't be done for okay So we don't need baptism then because it's the only thing

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Is it is it the only thing or is it not do you need to be baptized or not? Because if you need to be baptized, it's not sufficient

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It is true that you are an extremely skilled debater and you're good

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We are live apologetics live here to answer your most challenging questions you have about God in the

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Bible as we say every week We can answer any question you have about God and the Bible But just remember

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I don't know is a perfectly good answer. We're gonna be doing something a little different this week so we usually always announce that here you can always come in at apologetics live and Join and ask any questions.

01:08

You will not be allowed to join Live during the at least the first two hours

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You will be able if you're watching on YouTube to put comments and we'll see them if you have

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Questions for that we're gonna be having a formal debate and if you have a question and I'll mention this again later

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Just put the word question colon then ask your question and make it be a question not a statement

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But what we're gonna look to do is get to those if we have time at the end

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We're gonna be very tight on time and therefore I'm gonna jump right into this I first want to introduce

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Adam Parker from the bold apologetic Apology a podcast which where I was had the privilege of being on your show.

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That's how we got to meet That is how I got to meet one of the debaters Daniel and I got to watch your debate with these two folks that you had so let me bring both

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Matthew McGuire and Daniel McAdams in and I'm gonna let him do the introduction since you know, both of these men better than I do and then

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I will Then we'll get into the format of the debate for folks Awesome.

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Yes. Thanks again Andrew for letting me be part of what you're doing here And it's great to just be a part of this.

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So first I just want to introduce Matthew McGuire, he's a great guy.

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He wrote a magnificent book called a magical world and he and I actually started kind of talking a little bit over that and Since then just has been really awesome getting to know him.

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He's a very skilled Debater he is just a great great man of God and then we have

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Daniel McAdams and he leads 612 ministries and Both of these guys are really interesting

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Matthew covers ghosts in his book and he has some great information on that and then

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Daniel was a ghost hunter for a number of years and I'm sure a lot of you know that and just from a

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Previous appearance that he's had on the show. And so these are some great guys and Andrew I'll let you open the door for them to kind of Introduce themselves a little bit more.

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Yeah, Matthew anything else you want to add to that introduction? Thanks Adam, thanks

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Andrew, I appreciate you having me on the show I am like Adam said I'm the author of a book called a magical world how the

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Bible makes sense of the supernatural and I include a lengthy appendix on ghosts. So a lot of the information

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I'll bring up is from that appendix that people are interested and I did my undergraduate work at Crandall University in the biblical studies and I also am a student at the

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Rhine Education Center, which is a parapsychology research center So there's some interaction with that field of work as well that I incorporate in my writings

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I write I write regularly on substack You can find everything that I do on Matt McGuire net and also for anyone that wants to follow along I've got a bunch of debate notes.

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So no surprises if you go to Matt McGuire dotnet slash ghost notes dot PDF You'll get all of my notes including you

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Daniel so you can follow right along See everything I plan to say tonight and no surprises, but the reason

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I do that is because you that now he I don't want you to have too much time to look over them

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But it does have all of the resources or at least the majority of resources that I'm gonna be referencing tonight

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Opportunity, yeah, that's kind of a Michael Brown and I're supposed to be debating on charismatic gifts and we both agreed that we would actually give each other our opening comments

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Beforehand so that we have time to interact with it. Ask any questions before we actually do it

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So Daniel anything you want and Daniel has was mentioned down you've been on before And folks if it's the time when

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Daniel was we start talking about some of the paranormal And all of a sudden the Catholic guy came in and dominated the show

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That was paranormal for sure on that show, but yeah, my name is now McAdams I've been on apologetics life before talking about evidential apologetics and then

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I've been on Adams podcast a couple times so it's a blessing to be back with you guys and Then as mentioned

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I got to debate Matthew on Adams podcast and we had a wonderful time That was a a grand time having that debate and talking with you

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Matthew So I'm looking forward to this one as well Adam said I used to be a paranormal investigator.

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I was involved in that field for about Ten years before God God called me out of that I wrote a book as you can see over my right shoulder called biblical explanations the paranormal

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Why go through what the Bible has to say about the paranormal? Because it took ten years of looking for questions about What the paranormal is what are ghosts and all these different things and wasn't finding them in any

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Secular realm and then as soon as I opened the Bible the answer started pouring out So I'm excited for this debate and discussion tonight, and it's gonna be a blessing

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Yeah, and and you know folks you could tell that Daniel is trying to suck up to the host with it with the you know

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Book placement there. He's got he's got my book. What do we believe and my book? What do they believe right next you know in prominent view before his own book?

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You know this Sucking up the host so yet Doreen says so this is gonna be an in -house debate

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Yes, this will be before we start. Let me also just since this question came up Not a question for you guys, but the question is how is

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Aaron Brewster and his family are there any updates? I so I haven't watched for some time a brother John from Canada Aaron is so folks who don't know

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Aaron Brewster is one of our speakers at striving fraternity He was got affected by the storms in North Carolina, and I know that no one knows anything about North Carolina It's just California.

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That's all that matters. You know when millionaire Hollywood types houses burn that matters

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You know But when you know average people's houses burn or get flooded

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It's not an issue for them, but media doesn't care so the issue is yes We've been able to raise over $10 ,000 the total need that he has is about 50

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We have been able to raise enough money to basically replace his HVAC system.

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Which was good for the winter he has heat The bigger issue which I think is in the ten twenty thousand dollar range is

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Now dealing with all the mold They are having health issues because their house is filled with mold and they're

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So yeah, so if anyone wants to to help out with that campaign that we're doing just go to give send go

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Slash SFE So I'll put that up there right there, so it's give send go comm

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SFE that is where you can go to support him so With that this is going to be the format of debate that both men have agreed to They will each we'll start with Matthew followed by Daniel Matthew is taking the position that ghosts can be

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Human spirits former human spirits He believes they could be demonic, but they also could be former human spirits

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Daniel will go second his position is that they are only Demonic spirits, and they're not human spirits, so that is the debate topic

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We'll start with 15 minutes each opening Then they will have 10 minutes each to rebut the opening of the others

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Then we'll have a 15 minute cross examinee from each of them and then a five minute

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Closing if there is time left we will open to questions in the in the chat again if you have a question put the word question colon and then put the question so that I can see it and So that is going to be the format.

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We're gonna jump right into it for time We will not be going much after 10 o 'clock or at least Matthew will not

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So if you have credit for there's questions for Matthew we might have to ask those right away, so with that I'm gonna remove

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Adam and let's see I will Put in I'm gonna go To that mode, okay

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I'll remove Daniel and you have your clock so whenever you want to start

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I will Hit the button All Right well, thanks, and I just want to say at the out front.

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Thanks to Daniel for joining me again We had a really fun friendly time last time He's a brother, and he's very genuine and in his position so this

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I don't see this as a a clobbering opportunity This is just like someone said an in -house debate

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The first thing I want to do before I dig in is just correct one mistake that I made in the last one

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When I was talking about World War one Apparitions of dead soldiers. I mentioned phantasms of the living

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That is the wrong source. It was written before World War one a better source for that It's a great book, but it's not the right source a better source would be it's a book by Kyle Falcon called haunted

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Britain That's a new one that came out among other sources that document apparitions after World War one

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But anyway back to the debate itself Like I said a lot of the stuff that I'm gonna reference comes from my book the appendix to a magical world and As I also said you can go to Matt McGuire net and I have a link right to all of the debate notes for tonight

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So I also want to say Both views that either ghosts can be human spirits, or they can never be have support in church history

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So I'm not arguing that my position is obvious, but my position. I think is probable

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I think it's more probable than not So on my side of the debate you have people like Justin Martyr forging of Alexandria Gregory of Nyssa Augustine kind of and I can explain that later

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And as far as post -reformation you have Richard Baxter John Flavel John Wesley Johan Blumhardt and in the 20th century and 21st century

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People like the Lutheran John Warwick Montgomery JB Phillips Ben Witherington and Michael Heiser They all had a category for ghosts as the deceased spirits of humans

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Which was a possibility on the other hand people like Tertullian people like Martin Luther Martin Chemnitz King James himself and modern scholars like Craig Keener argue that ghosts are not human spirits

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In fact, they are demonic imposters. So there's we have to respect both sides because there's a lot of precedent on both sides

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I'm going to be approaching this topic like many things from the epistemology of the

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Wesleyan quadrilateral Not everyone is a fan of this But I have found it very helpful in discerning truth and the

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Wesleyan quadrilateral says we should determine truth first through scripture then through experience then through reason and then through tradition as sort of a ways of balancing each other out

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Of course scripture enjoys a place of priority and then the other three methods are ways of refining our thoughts in Filling in the gaps.

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So according to scripture I'm gonna argue that the Bible has a category for ghosts a legitimate category of the spiritual realm and this

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Coincides with the majority report not only of the ancient world But of the medieval world and even the contemporary world if we're talking about global culture the

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Bible Assumes the existence of ghosts and works within that framework and we can deal with specific passages along the way through the category of experience

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It is it is pretty well conceded that some form of ghost is

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Attested in pretty much every culture now some cultures like ancient Greece the ghosts were considered like a shade and they weren't like the full person

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Plato had more of a More of a idea of more substantial soul that survives death

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But in general whether you're talking about ancient India ancient China ancient Mesopotamia They all had this idea of a ghost and many of these ghosts exhibit

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Common motifs reasons for their existing pointing to something that That may be objective rather than just a subjective hallucination on the reason perspective.

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I think the the principle of phenomenal conservatism Which for people unfamiliar with this term basically it means you should you should take things at face value

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Until you have reason to believe otherwise This is the reason I don't believe that we're living in a simulation if we lived in a simulation

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I could never falsify it. I could never know otherwise, but because I would go crazy If I believe we are in a simulation

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I'm just gonna take my five senses at face value until I have reason to suspect otherwise and then from the

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And so with the area of ghosts until I have good evidence to believe that a ghost is a demon or a psychic projection or something

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I'm gonna take the ghost at face value because I do believe in a supernatural world as Does my opponent and then finally in the tradition?

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Part of the quadrilateral as I mentioned the view of ghosts has a lot of support in church history it's impossible to argue which one is the majority and which one's the minority view because As anyone knows who looks at early church history and medieval church history

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It's really hard to track down majority views and minority views but there is a lot of names that argue the same thing that I argue and Lastly on the tradition category

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I do want to point out that one of the big reasons that Protestants are so skeptical of ghosts is because of a polemic from the

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Reformation era where Catholics were using ghostly appearances as a bludgeon to tell the

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Protestants that their doctrine of purgatory was correct and the Protestants are like not so fast Purgatory is false.

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And so these these ghosts must be demons helping you prove your purgatory doctrine now that that that doesn't represent

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Their whole argument, but we should be historically aware that that is a major motivation with ghosts So if we want to jump into scripture,

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I'm going to Point out some scriptures that seem to support my position and then the ones that are more difficult

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I expect Daniel will bring up and we can deal with that in the rebuttal Of course, so Daniel and I both agree at least as far as the last debate

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We both agree that when Samuel shows up in first Samuel 28 that it was the real

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Samuel I think Daniel takes the position that this was sort of a direct miracle of God and it even surprised The the medium or the ghost mistress at the time

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Whereas I on the other hand I'm open to the idea that the Bible presents this story as as Evidence that necromancy was taken seriously the

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Israelites are forbidden from getting their spiritual knowledge outside of Yahweh And his and through his prophets and so necromancy is a sin, but that doesn't mean necromancy is false

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At Michael Heiser writes the reason for this prohibition was not that it couldn't be done It could rather God insisted that he be the lone source of information from the spiritual world for his people.

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So then the next passage and we can go through you know, the Isaiah uses terms like a team and Ove and May team and these are all terms that refer to the dead in general and there's some ambiguity as to whether he's he's

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Affirming their existence or whether he's just critiquing people that try to consult with them So I won't

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I won't put too much weight on the Isaiah passages When we get to the New Testament, there is some more telling passages.

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I point out that in Matthew 17 That's the appearance of Moses on the

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Mount of Transfiguration is not a proof of you know Ghosts being humans But I think it does undermine people who that say an apparition of a dead person must always be evil or it's always

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Always a demon because we have Jesus himself Accommodating this apparition of Moses who is a deceased individual

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So it's just a principle case that kind of complicates some of the the sweeping statements of the other side

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Now we're getting to more poignant episodes such as Mark 6 and Matthew 14 are parallel passages where the disciples are

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In the boat and they see Jesus walking on the sea. They call him a phantasma and it's pretty universally agreed

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They thought he was a ghost So this wouldn't mean too much because of course, you know Jesus could say by the way guys ghosts aren't real like what are you talking about?

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the problem is when you get to Luke 24 the disciples post -resurrection see

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Jesus again, and they call him enuma and Most responsible translation such as the

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Lexham English Bible the New Revised Standard and the net Bible they all translate this ghost even though the word technically is spirit and we even have a fifth century textual variant that Changes Numa to phantasma just to make it make everyone clear.

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These disciples thought they were seeing a ghost So it's not conclusive proof but it does show that these disciples retained this belief in a category a spiritual category of ghosts as deceased humans and One of the motifs of ghosts is that they have a violent death and then they're back for vengeance

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So it's it it makes sense that they're all startled and frightened when they see Jesus and they call him a new mother like oh

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No, and Jesus has to prove to them that he's not a Numa. He's not a ghost And then you get to Acts chapter 12.

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This one's a little bit more ambiguous, but it's been cogently argued that when the disciples When Jesus is sorry, excuse me

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When Peter is at the door and the servant girl wrote up answers and says it's Peter the disciples say oh, it's his angel

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Well angel is a euphemism for his ghost Because that was that would make sense of why she would see

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Or hear the voice of Peter or possibly see him through a crack in the door and say it's Peter Whereas they're like no.

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No, that's just his ghost. He was probably killed at the Antonia fortress They probably murdered him because we have a wicked king

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It's not a hundred percent conclusive, but it's also telling we may have a third instance of the disciples

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Continuing this belief in a category of ghosts after the resurrection these disciples aren't named but they're still in you know

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Judea and so presumably they would would have been connected with Jesus or at least his immediate followers

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Then you have John chapter 11. This one is is not this is just adds another layer of evidence where Jesus waits four days

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To resurrect Lazarus from the dead and we know from a couple centuries later. There's Written documents saying that Jews believed that a soul would hover around a body for three days trying to return into the body and Even though that evidence is late

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Da Carson has argued that the belief probably goes back to Jesus's time and it explains why he would have waited four days

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So even though Jesus doesn't say oh the ghost is lingering. He does accommodate the view of ghosts lingering this is also an extra biblical literature such as First century works the life of Adam and Eve and the book for Ezra They both talk about the soul lingering in their case.

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They have it for one week after death So we have a belief in Second Temple Judaism that the soul lingers after death

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So we're building this worldview that seems to be assumed by a lot of the New Testament characters and followers of Jesus now getting beyond Scripture we point to experience and I point out that people like Homer Plato Socrates ancient

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Egypt all these ancient cultures. They all believed in ghosts in one form or another and Dale Allison and others have pointed out there's many many common motifs among these

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Such as a violent death people that didn't suffer few didn't get the right funeral rights and in the ancient world it was almost universally considered a bad thing if you see a ghost something has gone wrong if ghosts were just You know a hallucination or something then you would expect all kinds of different reasons for ghosts but the fact that many of these ghosts share common reasons for you know appearing or becoming a ghost shows that maybe there's some sort of Factor in the spiritual plane of existence that that shows it's real.

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It's not a hallucination. I also point out that Veridical information or corroborative information from ghosts points to it being a real thing and not just a hallucination as well as multiple witnesses so I'm gonna cite from this there's an award -winning essay from the

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Bigelow Institute and They communicate a couple of these things called after -death communications

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So the first one is the case of Lucille's biological grandfather which you could find in the notes and This is a

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Lucille was a 39 year old hotel housekeeper in Florida She was adopted after birth her birth name was

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Mary, but her adoptive parents had changed it to Lucille So this lady she I'll try to summarize it because we're low on time

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But basically she she's always wanted to reconnect with her adoptive parents But she didn't want to hurt the feelings of her

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Excuse me at her biological parents, but she didn't want to hurt the feelings of her adoptive parents She gets this dream from this person that she doesn't know and the person says

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I'm going to adopt you Go find your mother and she sees what the person looks like. And so she's motivated to find her birth mother and She joins one of these adoptive groups finds the mother right away

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And then she describes this whole scenario and what he looks like what suit he was wearing and then the mother says wow

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That was your grandfather as it turns out that grandfather on his deathbed Just just recently had died and one of his last wishes that he said was go find your daughter so we have this whole situation where We have information that she could not have gotten by natural means

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The question is was this a demon was this psychic functioning or was it the spirit of the departed and I would argue that there's

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No clear demonic motivation that would make me think that another case is the case of Blair's father

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Just to summarize that basically this woman saw her her father the apparition of her father and she just her first instinct was

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Oh, maybe this is just I'm grieving I'm seeing the image but he looked very solid and then right at her her little son was with her

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And then the little son said Oh grampy's okay or grampy. Excuse me My granddaddy my granddaddy is what he says and she says to him your granddaddy is gone son

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And he said no my granddaddy was right here. So we have a case of two witnesses seeing the same apparition

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I I have example more examples of this in my book as well So I think this just points to the fact that these are objective experiences.

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They're paranormal supernatural Not not just a hallucination getting to the reason perspective

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I have what's called the white crow advantage William James said if you wish to upset the law that all crows are black.

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You mustn't seek to show that no crows are It is enough to prove one single crow to be white

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I just have to prove that one ghost is the spirit of a dead human Daniel has to prove that they're all demonic or they're all hallucinations

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But going back to the phenomenal conservatism approach I believe that some ghosts may be demonic imposters

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Some of them might even be a result of psychic functioning such as some poltergeist activity Or false apparitions of Jesus like we have in the life of st.

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Martin of Tours However, just in the same way that we shouldn't attribute every temptation to demons

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I think it would be irresponsible to attribute every single ghost to demons as well

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So this this is sort of where I land I just don't find the the demon of the gaps approach to be very convincing.

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Although it may be the case in certain Episodes, I don't see for a lot of these stories.

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I just don't see the demonic motivation that is right on time.

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So let me Bring Daniel in There we go.

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Daniel. We will restart the clock here for you. And once you get going

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I will start it But you have to unmute first that will be helpful That is a good point.

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Thank you All right ready when you are all right go So right off the bat

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I'd like to to just Note that both Matthew and I do have a belief in the supernatural

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So this is not a debate over whether or not ghosts or demons exist. We both agree that they do

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There is tons of historical and cultural evidence for the existence of the paranormal

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That was part of the reason why I was a paranormal investigator for so long because this stuff is real

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But when it comes to the question about Ghosts and demons or questions about faith theology in the supernatural and eternal matters

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The question we should be asking is what does the Bible say? Sure, there is a a lot of historical and cultural evidence for this position as Matthew made abundantly clear, but as Christians, we shouldn't be seeking to understand these things based on the historical and cultural accounts or personal experiences

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We need to be turning to scripture as our final authority That is why in the

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Reformation time sola scriptura was the rallying cry of the Reformers scripture alone

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So You might be wondering what sola scriptura has to do to this debate do with this debate.

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Well, it's foundational to this debate It's essential Sola scriptura means that for us as Christians that God's Word is the ultimate and only infallible

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Authority for our faith and for matters of theology and the spiritual realm

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It does not mean that tradition experiences church councils philosophical musing scientific findings

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Commentaries pastors teachers scholars or debates like this are are useless and need to be rejected by Christians but rather it simply means that while all these are useful they are not to be the final and ultimate authority for the

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Christian as That position is occupied by scripture alone So we are to stand fast upon the

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Bible as Christians and examine all by the Bible and reject all that does not align with the

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Bible so This is critical to this debate because when you examine the thesis are some ghosts the spirits of dead humans

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When you examine that in the light of scripture You will find that scripture does not in any way shape or form teach

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That the spirits of human beings can linger on the earth after death Now Matthew already brought this passage up, but some of you are probably thinking about What about the spirit of Samuel when

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King Saul had the witch of Endor summon him? Well, that was a one -off event and it is a descriptive passage of something that happened in the past It is not a prescriptive passage

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Meaning that it's not prescribed as something that we should follow or expect So it is poor hermeneutics to build a doctrine off a passage of scripture that is descriptive and of an historical event and Matthew and I are both in agreement on this passage that the plain normative

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Straightforward reading of the text makes it clear that God allowed the spirit of Samuel to deliver one last message to Saul So when we examine the question of are some ghosts the spirits are dead humans

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Do we let historical accounts cultural beliefs and personal experiences dictate our beliefs about ghosts and the afterlife as Well as influence how we read the

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Bible concerning these things or do we view these historical accounts cultural beliefs and personal?

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experiences through what the Bible teaches Well, my friends God's Word is truth and God's Word doesn't change

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So when we're looking at the biblical passages concerning death and the afterlife We need to remember that the main things are the plain things in scripture and the plain things are the main things

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And that if the literal sense makes sense, we need to not seek more sense lest we end up with nonsense

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So let's turn to some passages of scripture and examine what scripture says on this topic Looking at Job chapter 7 verses 9 through 10 starting in the

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Old Testament we see Job say when a cloud vanishes it is gone.

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So when he goes down to Sheol that is the place of the grave Does not come up.

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He will not return again to his house nor will his place know him anymore The psalmist in Psalm 146 verses 3 through 4 says do not trust in princes and mortal man in whom there is no salvation

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His spirit departs. He returns to the earth and that very day his thoughts perish

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Thoughts thinking ideas plans they perish when man dies and then

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Ecclesiastes Solomon in chapter 9 verses 5 through 6 writes for the living

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No, they will die, but the dead do not know anything nor have they any longer a reward for their memory is forgotten indeed their love their hate and their zeal have already perished and they will no longer have a share in all that is done under the

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Sun and While we know that Ecclesiastes was written as a kind of cynical outlook on life the book starts with the vanity of vanities

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Is it correct to think that King Solomon the wisest man to ever live? Would be incorrect when he wrote under the

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Holy Spirit's inspiration that the dead no longer have a share in all that is done under the

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Sun To insinuate that the Bible teaches an error here is thus to call into question the truthfulness of the entirety of scripture

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So if we see that the Bible plainly teaches that the dead no longer have any interactions with the living

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That their plans and thoughts and desires have perished And that they no longer have a share in all that is done under the

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Sun Then what does happen when we die? now the Old Testament gave kind of a a shadowy view of the afterlife, but in the

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New Testament the Apostles writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit and filled with the

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Holy Spirit Give us a fuller picture of what happens when we die and Paul states the answer plainly and clearly to what happens when we die in two different passages

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In 2nd Corinthians 5 verses 6 through 8 He says therefore being always of good courage and knowing that while we are at home in the body

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We're absent from the Lord for we walk by faith not by sight We are of good courage

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I say and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord and In Philippians 1 verses 21 through 24.

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He says for me to live as Christ and die as gain But if I am to live on in the flesh, this will mean fruitful labor for me

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I do not know which to choose But I am hard -pressed from both directions having the desire to depart and be with Christ for that is very much better Yet to remain on in the flesh is more necessary for your sake

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So Paul clearly teaches that after death we are immediately present with the Lord as believers Paul didn't long to die and hopefully stick around as a ghost to tie up loose ends he longed to be with the

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Lord and if any person had unfinished business to fulfill back on earth after he died, it would have been the

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Apostle Paul and This is why Christians don't have to fear death This is why we don't have to turn to The paranormal and ghostly realm to seek assurance of what happens when we die or to find hope for The life after this one we turn to scriptures and we see as believers.

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Our hope is in Jesus Christ we have the blessed hope promised to us that we will be present with our

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Lord and Savior when we depart from this life and Jesus gives insights into the afterlife in his parable concerning the rich man and Lazarus in Luke chapter 16

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Now for sake of time, I'm not going to read this all but if you guys want to look it up, it's verses 19 through 31

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And while the immediate context of this parable is addressed towards the Pharisees The parable contains spiritual truths

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Which we as believers can learn from thus we can safely infer from the plain reading of this parable some thoughts and insights on the afterlife the first is that the saved immediately go to paradise in heaven and The unbelievers immediately go to Hades where they await final judgment

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We also see that there's no second chance after death And we see that nobody's sent back to earth to give messages to the living after death

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Which is in line with what I said earlier in the other passages that I quoted That's showing that scripture interprets scripture and is perfect and consistent in what it teaches

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And it also says in this parable that we do not need a message from the dead as we have the inerrant complete authoritative sufficient

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Word of God So based on these passages of scripture, there is a clear teaching about what happens when we die the believers spirit goes immediately into the presence of the

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Lord and the Unbeliever spirit goes into a place of torment and we know that the body returns to the dust of the earth

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But at the resurrection the spirit will be united with the glorified body in the believers case

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But one's eternal destiny will not change So nowhere in scripture is it taught either explicitly or implicitly that a person's spirit can come back to minister to the living

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After a person has died But that brings up the question then what are ghosts?

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Well, we need to remember that personal experiences historical accounts and cultural beliefs

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Do not trump scripture We do not interpret scripture in light of any of these rather we interpret these

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Through the light of what scripture teaches So if the Bible only teaches two options on a subject in this case

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Heaven or Hades as to where we go when we die Then that any other options that are presented can be immediately dismissed as being wrong

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So if it's clear from scripture that human beings do not return to the earth after death to interact with the living then what could?

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Account for all the ghost stories and paranormal experiences that so many people across cultures throughout world history

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Myself included half Well, once again, we ask What does the

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Bible say? Starting again with Paul in Ephesians 6 verses 11 through 12 He writes put on the full armor of God so that you will be able to stand firm against the schemes of the devil

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Our struggle is not against flesh and blood Meaning we're not fighting against each other but against the rulers against the powers against the world forces of darkness against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places

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Our battle is against spiritual forces We are to stand firm against the devil that is

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Satan and his schemes We fight against the spiritual forces of darkness that are allied with Satan against God in his word and us as Christians He words in this passage or scheme

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The key word in this passage is schemes Satan is a schemer a deceiver or adversary and so are those who serve him his demons

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We see in 1st John 5 19 that the whole world lies in the power of the evil one world meaning the world system of ideas philosophies teachings and desires and Paul echoes this in Ephesians 2 chapter 2 verse 1

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When he states that Satan is the prince of the power of the air and of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience the sons of disobedience being those who are opposed to God in his word and Then Paul after stating all these things about the spiritual realm and stating that our fight is against the spiritual realm and Also tying in with what

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John said in 1st John Satan Satan Wow, that was a slip of the tongue there

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Paul warns us in 1st Timothy 4 verse 1 After he lays out the qualifications for church leadership and giving an exhortation for how we as Christians should live our lives

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Paul says that the spirit explicitly says in latter times that some will fall away from the faith paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons

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Satan and his spiritual forces of darkness. The demons are deceivers and liars their whole mission is opposed to God and to oppose him his word and the church and What better way to deceive people than to masquerade as spirits of those who have died?

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or to masquerade as familiar spirits who can give advice and wisdom through psychics and mediums and sensitive people or give advice and And talk to people who have an interest in the paranormal who go out in an effort to communicate with these forces in the spiritual world

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Paul tells us in 2nd Corinthians 11 14 through 15. No wonder for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light

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Therefore it is not surprising if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness whose end will be according to their deeds

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Once again, Satan's servants here refer to both living people who are false teachers as well as spiritual forces of darkness his demons

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These folks these false teachers and demons can disguise themselves as servants of righteousness we are told

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That is they can deceive people into thinking that they have good intentions and are teaching good things this is why having discernment is critical as a believer and why the doctrine of sola scriptura is so important and foundational to this issue

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While we can learn a good deal about the historical and cultural beliefs in the supernatural by looking at the historical and cultural accounts and while we can learn a fair bit about The person from personal experiences that people have

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We do not let those take precedence in shaping our view on them. We have to view all those through scripture and scripture alone.

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I Know I'm a little little early on the end, but thank you guys Okay, over to you

40:00

Andrew. Yep. I had to unmute myself and let me go and Spring Matthew back in remove you

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And let us go to the next timer Matthew you have a 10 -minute rebuttal and and folks just as a reminder for folks who came in in the middle

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We are having a debate the topic is because someone someone had put the question up saying

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That I don't think Matthew M is disagreeing that demons are real.

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Nope. That isn't the issue of the debate They both agree that some spirits could be demonic. The topic of this debate is on whether Ghosts are human spirits.

40:41

So that is the topic of debate. And if you have questions, please in the chat put question colon and then ask your question give some context because You you're listening to it and have the question right now

40:54

It doesn't mean that they're gonna remember exactly what they were saying when you actually ask the question So, all right,

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Matthew the time is yours for a rebuttal whenever you want to get started All right

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So I just want to point out before I get into the specifics That this is not a debate as to one person arguing from Scripture and one person arguing from experience even

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You know I pointed out I use Scripture and then I inform my understanding of Scripture with with reason experience in tradition

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And even Daniel himself should admit that his argument is not taught in Scripture There's nowhere in the

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Scripture where it says ghosts appearances of the dead are actually demons. It's an argument of inference

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It goes like this. Well ghosts are a category understood by people in the

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Bible Demons are a category of spirit being demons are evil therefore

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Maybe demons are masquerading as ghosts and you can throw in text like, you know, Satan masquerades as an angel of light

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But it's not a teaching of Scripture It's just an inference that you you've taken and you're trying to fit into Scripture which may it's a legitimate approach

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But it's not like he's just repeating a scriptural teaching. He's making an inference there now in the last debate

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We dealt with some of these passages from the Old Testament Ecclesiastes and Job Ecclesiastes is rather simple he says the writer of Ecclesiastes says things like the dead know nothing and You know

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Job says he who goes down to Sheol does not come up and Most people recognize there is a progressive revelation of the afterlife in the

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Old Testament You you won't see a lot of people talking about the intermediate state You don't have any rich man and Lazarus stories in the

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Old Testament not till you get to the book of Daniel Do you see really vivid afterlife pictures?

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So Job is talking from his current perspective and in the same chapter you quoted he's saying

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I'm talking from the bitterness of my soul He's saying life is he's he's very similar to Ecclesiastes right here.

42:57

He's basically saying life is all vanity I'm not gonna come back after all this suffering likewise

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Ecclesiastes He'll say things like better than both as he who has not yet been he says it's better to never have been born than be

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Alive so I could say the same thing. Oh, well the Solomon if Solomon's the author of Ecclesiastes well

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Solomon He's inspired by the Holy Spirit and he said that it's better to never be born than to be alive

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How could he be wrong? Well, this is just a misuse of Scripture You need to read it in its context and the later passages of Scripture, especially closer to the

43:29

New Testament We we see a picture of the afterlife that is conscious It's very active and it's not

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Reflective of these passages of despair that reflect the mind of the author and giving up this is in the last debate

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Daniel mentioned that he no longer quotes many passages from the Psalms that talk of a non conscious afterlife because he realizes

43:49

These just reflect the angst of the writer They don't reflect God directly teaching on the nature of the afterlife.

43:56

So Job and Ecclesiastes are pretty poor sources to cite as far as Debunking the idea that there's an active

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Afterlife or the idea that on some occasions some spirits may linger Now we talk about things like Paul saying let's see you you cited 2nd

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Corinthians 5 8 and Philippians 1 23 We would in the Corinthians passage. We'd rather be away from the body and at home with the

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Lord So I I will admit this verse is one of the stronger verses that seem to support

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Daniel's position So it's I'm glad he brought it up But in the first place this verse at best best case scenario.

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This only rules out Christian ghosts So yeah, okay Christians go home to the Lord But it says nothing about what what historically has been called the unquiet dead, but I would even pick

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Pick apart the idea that this rules out the idea that believers can never come back so This verse is a true hope for all believers

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But it does not automatically preclude any interim time between the punctiliar

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I like that word punctiliar moment of death and then the reception into the presence of Christ So I point out even someone as super conservative evangelical like Billy Graham He's like, oh, yeah, everyone that dies is gonna get an angelic escort before they get to Christ so there's some there's some kind of interim period that is pretty acceptable this idea of Immediate is like I call it the beam me up Scotty view.

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It's not necessary from the text and third This verse also doesn't preclude the idea that a deceased

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Saint Yeah, it can be in the presence of God, but God sends angels periodically to help his people

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Why wouldn't he why wouldn't God have the freedom to just send down? Saint to help people.

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This was Augustine's view Even though Augustine was skeptical of most ghosts because his idea was well

45:49

If ghosts were real my mother Monica would be hanging out with me all the time because she loved me that much.

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So obviously He actually thought most ghostly apparitions were Angelic operations at least like the the ones that were helpful.

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He actually has a ghost story in his book dick the cura pro -mortuous where a father

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Appears to his son in a dream and he tells the son. Hey, by the way, you know that that tax that debt collector

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That's after you well I actually paid that debt and you can find the receipt in X location the son finds the receipt to that debt and he pays

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It off and he's all freed and and Augustine's like, huh? Maybe that father is caring for his son But ultimately he decides this is probably just an angelic thing and it's a it's a likeness of his father

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It's not the real father But the thing is with Augustine he did allow for martyrs in what we call the very special dead

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Peter Brown's phrase is The very special dead did have this angelic task at times and could come on a holy errand so These passages from Paul do nothing to preclude that and they do nothing to preclude the idea of the unquiet dead or people that don't

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Know Christ and have this interim period You pointed out the parable of Lazarus and dives also known as the

47:01

Lazarus and rich man so the argument here is

47:07

If they do not hear Moses and Lazarus, excuse me the rich man wants to send Lazarus back to warn his relatives about the judgment in this afterlife parable this illustration and He's told if they do not hear

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Moses and the prophets neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead This is a lesson on belief in hard -heartedness

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We remember in Matthew chapter 12 I'll read it here verse 38 teacher We wish to see a sign from you

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But he answered them an evil and adulterous generation seeks for a sign But no sign will be given to it except the sign of the

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Prophet Jonah So does that mean that Christ never performed miracles and this also does that mean?

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Christ never performed miracles to engender faith and we know that he did because many people believe because of his signs

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So just as that account in Matthew doesn't rule out the working of miracles. Neither does the Luke 16 parable

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Even if it's more than just an illustration. Neither does that parable rule out the possibility of the dead ever interacting with the living

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Wonder if there's any so I've we talked about Hebrews 9 27 and 28 And I think Daniel he does bring that up in his book as well where it says it's appointed to man

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To die once and after that comes judgment in the following verse So Christ having been offered once to bear the sins of many will appear a second time not to deal with sin

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But to save those who are eagerly waiting for him so this passage Does teach the principle that we have one life it teaches that all men die once Although there are exceptions like Enoch and Elijah that didn't die and there's exceptions like Lazarus who died twice

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But leaving that aside, it does not rule out the possibility of ghostly existence. I think it does rule out

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Reincarnation unless someone were to have a really convincing argument But I think it does rule out things like reincarnation

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But it does not rule out ghost existence for the for an obvious reason He says it's appointed for man to die once and then comes judgment just as Christ appeared once and will come again.

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Well In the second half of that analogy, there's a 2 ,000 year gap. So judgment is assured

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There's a shorty to it, but that doesn't mean that there's nothing in between Most Christian traditions have held to something called the particular judgment in the final judgment

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So I do believe that there is a moment Relatively soon after death where you are basically the same way that in our own system, you know

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I like to do jail ministry people get put in the county jail and then they have their court date for their final destination in the same way and I'm not

49:35

Arguing this is exactly how it is but there's nothing that precludes the idea that people have an interim period before the final judgment at the end of cosmic history when

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Everyone comes before The White Throne, you know, we're reading reading the last battle the last

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Narnia book with our kids right now and they talk about how all these Creatures came and they were all judged at once by Aslan and he said you couldn't tell it.

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Sometimes it felt like just Like an hour and then other times it felt like it was years long There's the whole sense of time is distorted

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But anyway, my point is to say simply trying to proof text something like this without being sensitive to what the scripture is actually trying to communicate and using

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You know people just throwing off aside remarks and not actually teaching something directly It's a very tenuous way to handle the scripture.

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So I would really I would really disagree with many of the teachings here I'll leave it at that at that right there

50:33

Okay, let me bring Daniel in We got

50:39

Let me reset the clock for you Daniel and this time Yes, so once you start

50:47

You got ten minute rebuttal Go for it All right. So right off the bat.

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I do want to agree with something that Matthew said I do agree that the Bible rules out Reincarnation the

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Bible makes leaves no room for that belief in what it teaches in his opening

51:05

Matthew mentions acts 12 as a Passage that supports his view because he says that when

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Peter appeared at the door they thought it was his angel and He argues that this is a euphemism for ghost

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But the Greek word used is Angelos meaning a messenger a sent one angel and an ancient

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Jewish belief They believe that each person had a guardian angel and that immediately after a person's death that that guardian angel would appear which is why they thought that It was his angel that was at the door and not

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Peter And I would like to point out that the antiquity of a belief does not make a belief true

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Nor does one's personal experience nor does cultural belief For example just because people believe that the earth was the center of the universe in the medieval time doesn't make it true and Matthew Consistently refers back to the early church fathers and things that they taught to support his view that Saints can come back to minister but Augustin and The other church fathers as great as they are and as much as we can learn from them.

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They are not Greater than Scripture. It's interesting that he argues from what they say to support his view but he doesn't actually bring up any passages from Scripture that actually

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Talk explicitly about his view, but rather he has to read into the text historical accounts personal experiences and cultural beliefs to infer that some that the

52:46

Bible leaves it open that some people could come back to earth as ghosts and that's why

52:53

I wanted to lay the foundation that I did in my opening that Scripture is our foundation and we need to view all these

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Experiences and accounts in light of what Scripture teaches Matthew might call it proof texting

53:06

But every passages that I brought up deals with the afterlife and talks about the dead and whether or not they have interaction or know anything about the living and while he brings up that in Ecclesiastes that Solomon says the dead know nothing and he argues that well the dead do know things because we're alive either with Jesus or an eternal torment and Jesus makes it clear that in the afterlife you are conscious in his parable of the rich man and Lazarus My arguments from the

53:39

Psalms and from Ecclesiastes there is not that you're unconscious or that you're annihilated when you die

53:46

But rather the Bible's teaching that the dead have no knowledge or interaction with the living world and Like I said my last debate

53:56

I did kind of Hyperliteral eyes some of those passages and Psalms to the point where it almost seemed like I was arguing for some sort of Unconscious existence afterlife and that would be incorrect on my part because I don't believe that But Matthew in his book

54:13

Mentions an experience by Rob Dreher a Christian journalist Where Dreher was experiencing ghostly phenomena and after contacting some experts they came in supernaturally located an old family portrait of Dreher's grandfather

54:27

Dede and discerned a message for Dreher's father Ray that Dede cannot move on until Ray forgave him and Once Ray forgave him the priest performed a cleansing ritual and a

54:38

Eucharist celebration and after this Dreher reported No more phenomena in his house Dreher then states.

54:44

Can I explain this theologically? No, not really but I believe I saw the power of a living man's forgiveness free the soul of a dead man trapped by guilt and let him

54:52

Move on into the next life Matthew then states in his book after some time of reflection

54:57

Dreher's outlook became my own I may not understand it, but I have a sense that under some circumstances the departed may temporarily become stuck after death

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Vexed by some unresolved event from their earthly life And the error with this conclusion that he reached here is that he reached it apart from Scripture.

55:17

Nothing that was said Was from Scripture. It was from personal accounts and The account was subjective.

55:26

He then further solidifies his belief based on the fact that since ancient times People have reported stories of the dead being stuck on earth with unfinished business

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And then he looks through history at facts concerning ghosts and settles on two categories which are brought up the unquiet dead

55:43

But she states are spirits that have unfinished business or who are bent on causing mischief as well as the blessed dead which he states is a righteous soul that appears for a specific purpose or holy errand from God and Matthew attempts to defend this holy errand position by saying it has biblical precedent in angelic activity and has been affirmed by Christians of all brands throughout history and That sounds good and all but he makes a category error here and assuming that since angelic activity takes place on earth

56:13

Then so too could the spirit of a dead saint partake in a holy errand and he again appeals to history to support this conclusion and While this is excellent historical and journalistic research

56:28

It fails to take into account that the Bible does not teach the existence of either of these two categories of spirits

56:35

He might say that I'm proof texting my position and concluding that it's all demonic but his but the

56:42

Bible talks about demons and talks about demons being deceitful and Talks about the fact that we are in a war against demons

56:50

But nowhere does the Bible talk about people getting stuck in the spirit realm between this life and the next

56:56

No, where does it differentiate between? unquiet dead or blessed dead and the holy errands

57:02

Rather it says that the souls of unbelievers who die go to Hades and await eternal punishment in Luke 16 and that the soul of believers goes immediately to the presence of the

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Lord as Paul states and Angels are who you who God uses to minister to believers not spirits of dead believers.

57:20

We see this in Hebrews 1 13 through 14 But to which of the angels has God ever said sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool at your feet

57:29

Are they not all ministering spirits sent out to render service for the sake of those who will inherit salvation and Considering the whole unfinished business historical theory.

57:40

There are some major historical implications Wouldn't salvation be of utmost importance concerning unfinished business as if in an if an unbeliever dies when it makes sense that he would want to finish salvation

57:54

Before he stands before God but it's clear biblically that this life is the only shot that we have at salvation and forgive me

58:02

Matthew if I Missed in the last debate or in your book that you take a position against this because I think

58:08

I might remember you saying something about that Secondly, if a believer dies, how would unfinished business on earth take priority over being in the very physical presence of Christ?

58:18

Because Paul says that he desires to be to die and be with Christ, but he knows that he is needed on earth still so why didn't

58:26

Paul just stick around on earth after he died since he had unfinished business and Why does

58:34

Paul make distinctions between life and death? Thirdly the Bible has absolutely zero support for sticking around to finish unfinished business and fourthly

58:43

Theologically what qualifies as unfinished business and what qualifies a person to stick around to finish?

58:49

Whatever that unfinished business is answers to these questions Must come from scripture.

58:56

This theory is to be given credibility in His book in the concluding section dealing with ghosts

59:02

Matthew makes another Statement in the effort to support his position

59:08

But he gives credence to the abilities and statements of sensitives otherwise known as mediums He says my own personal conclusion is akin to John Wesley's I cannot make perfect sense of ghosts within a neat theological system

59:20

But at the same time I cannot deny their existence The wide testimony to the two different types of ghosts the unquiet dead as well as the blessed dead is too strong for me to reject furthermore the testimony of experienced exorcists as well as spiritually sensitive individuals who seem to be able to Distinguish between demons and ghosts gives weight to the idea that not all ghosts are demons

59:43

Well, Matthew has just committed the error of capitulation to phenomena here This is the error of allowing one's doctrine to be determined by phenomena

59:52

Frederick S. Lee hate Lehi says this about this The facts cannot be gain said denied

59:59

So it is decided that they must be accommodated by theology and therefore theology is adjusted accordingly

01:00:04

But is not necessary to do this on the contrary The Christian should seek to interpret the facts in light of the teaching of Scripture.

01:00:12

He must not allow phenomena to determine his beliefs So he mentions that he cannot fit ghosts neatly into a theological system

01:00:21

But rather than turning to the Bible to seek the understanding of the nature of the afterlife He bases his conclusions strongly and primarily on historical accounts of the unquiet dead and blessed dead

01:00:32

Ghost stories as well as personal testimonies of exorcists whose whole mission is to deal with demons who by the way are deceiving spirits

01:00:40

He also bases it on the testimonies of spiritually sensitive individuals, which are nothing more than psychics and mediums by another name

01:00:48

And this is why the doctrine of sola scriptura is so important. They must base our views on these on Scripture.

01:00:55

Thank you alright Let me bring us both in and I will reset the clock here for 15 minutes each starting with Matthew This is cross -examination.

01:01:07

Let me explain for the audience how we will be doing this both Matthew and Daniel have agreed that this will be 15 minutes for Matthew to ask questions of Daniel then

01:01:18

Daniel asking questions of Matthew they will have one minute in which to Ask a question

01:01:27

That one minute is not actually going to be timed because I'm just gonna it's gonna be a little harder but we will get two minutes to They'll have two minutes to be able to Respond.

01:01:39

So I will be Although I'm trying to get the clock to show them one minute

01:01:47

Hello Why is it not giving me my one minute one

01:01:59

Technical issues folks I will say again for folks that if you have questions,

01:02:05

I may just have to use my phone as the timer I don't know why it's not Let's see, no that didn't work

01:02:16

All right, I will use my phone as the timer so Which makes this kind of hard But we'll get we'll get you at least have the 15 -minute countdown

01:02:29

So Also folks just realize Both Matthew and Daniel.

01:02:35

We're told that if either one of them Feels the other person is not actually answering a question.

01:02:42

They can call in the moderator, which is me to stop the clock and That forces the person to actually answer a question

01:02:50

This prevents people from avoiding to answer and just trying to run the clock So with that Matthew you can start with your first question to Daniel All right.

01:03:01

Thanks. So Daniel, would you say that experience? informs the

01:03:08

Experiences behind the reason that you think ghosts are demons No, the

01:03:16

Bible is the reason why I think ghosts are demons Could you explain this statement from your book after you

01:03:23

After you viewed footage of yourself being demonized You said this experience opened my eyes to what was out there and showed me that I had no idea what

01:03:32

I was dealing with So up until that point I believed that you had like you're saying a difference between Some ghosts being the ghosts of humans and also demons and if you look at paranormal investigation today

01:03:47

You will see a lot of investigators that make a clear distinction between the two when that experience happened it scared the daylights out of me because up until that point

01:03:57

I'd really only had experiences with benevolent spirits and so That experience when

01:04:04

I got demon -possessed It actually forced me to look for ways to protect myself from that happening again, and I turned to New Age philosophy for that But when

01:04:14

God opened my eyes to what the paranormal was in 2019 That was all demonic when

01:04:19

I went back and saw that I realized what was happening And at that time I realized I wasn't just dealing with ghosts, but this is all demonic

01:04:27

So the Bible informed my experience on that not vice versa Okay, and to follow up on that your whole reason for including that story in your book, which is a book teaching people

01:04:40

Explanations of the paranormal what would be the reason did all right. Let me phrase it this way

01:04:45

Do you think one of your reasons for including that story is to use an experiential anecdote to provide?

01:04:52

supplemental evidence for your Bible arguments I used that story in particular

01:04:58

Because people like hearing about demonic possession and I'd never told that story before So I knew that if I opened with it opened with a hook that would get people thinking it would

01:05:10

Keep them interested in the book. It was not meant to It was not meant as an oh,

01:05:16

I had this experience now. I need to go figure out what demons are Oh, hey, the Bible talks about this No I Hadn't looked at what the

01:05:24

Bible said up until that point and it wasn't for three more years before I looked at what the Bible Said so that experience only affirmed my present belief that I had in 2016 that there were demons

01:05:35

But that there were also benevolent spirits and it wasn't until I actually was reading the Bible and saw what the

01:05:40

Bible said about the spiritual realm that I realized that It wasn't just that one experience that I had was demonic but that every single one that I was having was being involved with demons

01:05:52

So so just to be clear and this is the last time I'll emphasize it You would say that experience of being demon -possessed had nothing to do with your conclusion that ghosts were demons

01:06:02

It was only the Bible completely divorced. Correct that experience pushed me to the

01:06:08

New Age so when you were very harsh on my inclusion of the Rod Dreher story as a

01:06:14

Turning point in my own understanding Something that made me look at to the scriptures deeper.

01:06:20

You would say I my story is used as evidence, whereas your story is just used as You know just a clickbait

01:06:31

I mean, I'm just saying are you are you seeing a similarity with how we both use an experiential story to introduce a topic?

01:06:39

Or do you think yours is patently different from the way that I use it? from reading yours,

01:06:45

I believe we both used an experience as Clickbait to get people to kind of read further to understand our positions

01:06:53

But from yours I understood it you read that and that Influenced how you then approached what you read in the

01:07:00

Bible concerning the paranormal Whereas mine was just my personal experience I had at that moment and then years down the road the

01:07:07

Bible influenced how I actually view that experience and viewed all my paranormal experiences Fair enough.

01:07:13

Are you familiar with the term burden of proof? Yes. All right. Could you could you just give it like a tense 20 -second version of what burden of proof means?

01:07:23

Well, I hate being asked to define things because I know what they are, but I can never give a good definition The person making a claim for something is the one that has to prove said claim

01:07:33

Yeah, okay. Great five seconds. That was even better than I hoped for So you said there's no explicit teaching in the

01:07:40

Bible that people can become ghosts, correct? Correct. Is there an explicit teaching that people cannot become ghosts?

01:07:48

That's not an inference argument There is no verse that says people cannot become ghosts

01:07:57

No, so that's what you're looking for okay, so in your opinion if the entire or at least the vast majority of the surrounding cultures of Israel and of the

01:08:09

Greco -Roman world have a belief in some sort of ghost with some exceptions granted I think some of the

01:08:16

Greek philosophers If that's a milieu within which the Bible is written What do you think the burden of proof is if the

01:08:24

Bible is not explicit and teaching whether or not people can become ghosts? Can you ask that one more time?

01:08:33

Sure. Yeah, so I'm not going to stop No Is the burden of proof on the person that says? Every ghost is an imposter or is the burden of proof on the person that says yes, the

01:08:43

Bible works Wait unless it says explicitly. Otherwise, it's working within that ancient supernatural worldview

01:08:53

I'm Not quite sure how to answer that question because the Bible's ultimate goal is salvation redemptive salvation

01:09:04

Tracing from the fall of Adam through in the first Adam to salvation through the second

01:09:09

Adam Jesus Christ So there was a lot of things in the world views at that time that the

01:09:15

Bible doesn't explicitly address but Salvation is that when we die we go to be with the

01:09:22

Lord as believers and everything that you see in the Bible Doesn't really leave an opening for there to be a sticking around period on earth for the souls of humans

01:09:34

So it does I would say that the Bible does address that that position Implicitly though not directly or blatantly out the open

01:09:44

Okay, and I asked you this in the last debate, but just for the benefit of listeners. I reported very short version there's a scholar named

01:09:52

Ben Witherington the third very well -known Wesleyan scholar and he was struggling with whether or not to continue as a pastor and He received a phone call through another parishioner

01:10:03

Long story basically, there was an after -death phone call from someone that had just died within his parish in the phone call

01:10:10

Was encouraging Ben to continue as a pastor. So there's some sort of corroborative information that seems to go beyond just a hallucination or something and This came to him and it encouraged him to stay as a pastor.

01:10:24

It wasn't the only decision Do you think that when Witherington the third took advice from a demon?

01:10:31

Yes, that would be my position Okay. All right, just to be clear. All right, and then you mentioned that What's your source for saying that the angel of of Peter or the angel for Peter?

01:10:49

What's your source for saying the ancient Jewish belief that an angel shows up to surrounding people at the point of death

01:10:54

I And then

01:11:00

I did some other research on it too I That was years ago. I just remember that statement off the top of my head

01:11:07

So I don't have and I can't give you the exact source So are you familiar next question, which is related?

01:11:14

Are you familiar with the ending of? Stephen's speech and what some of the last words were after he gives his speech and he's dying that he saw the heavens opened up and the

01:11:23

Son of Man standing at the right hand of God and see if you can finish the sentence and his face was like the face of an angel so I Just point that out.

01:11:35

I guess I shouldn't be making a statement in my cross -examination. So I will stop right there

01:11:41

I'll be fair. I'm gonna leave it right there because I don't have anything That's that I'm gonna continue drilling down on so I'll yield the rest

01:11:51

All right. Let me restart the clock here All right, Daniel and thank you

01:11:58

Matthew for stopping yourself from making a statement Good to beta knew it knew when you were crossing the line

01:12:05

Very good. All right, Daniel, whenever you're ready, I will start the clock ready and ready when you were

01:12:13

So, um, I know I asked these in the last ones But just for formality and so that that people on Adams podcasts can hear and do you believe that the

01:12:21

Bible is the Word of God? Yes Do you believe that God is truth and that his word is truth?

01:12:28

Yes Do you believe that God can lie or contradict himself or his word?

01:12:34

No Okay So How much weight do you give?

01:12:43

Historical evidence and personal experiences and cultural beliefs when understanding a theological topic

01:12:51

So The best way I can Picture this the

01:12:56

Wesleyan quadrilateral of the four scripture reason tradition experience Have you ever hung up a punching bag?

01:13:03

Well, oh wait, I'm not supposed to ask questions a punching bag hangs from the ceiling has one

01:13:08

Let's just call it one hanger, but then to make the punching bag not swing too much You can attach straps from the bottom to the floor to keep it from getting all crazy

01:13:18

So scripture is the overhead hanger it's the thing on which you can't have the punching bag without it

01:13:24

It is the final court of appeal but reason experience and tradition are guardrails and guides for us to help

01:13:32

Inform and supplement our understanding of scripture. So those are the little straps you tie at the bottom

01:13:38

So scripture does have a it's called prima script Torah It has a place of priority, but not every single thing about the world is described in the

01:13:46

Bible So we use our God -given reason Justin Martyr, he called it the sperm.

01:13:51

Oh, sorry the logos spermatic hosts the seed of logos which is in all of us were gifted reason and we all have a

01:13:59

Some natural revelation that we incorporate so they're supplemental but they're not over and above scripture

01:14:08

Okay, so scripture would be your final court of appeal you say Do you have any?

01:14:17

any verses that support the Blessed Dead or Matthew chapter 17

01:14:28

Could you expand on that just a little more? Yeah, so Moses is dead Elijah never died So I'm not gonna bother citing him but At least on this one occasion

01:14:37

God saw fit to send down Moses on a what I would what has been called a holy errant

01:14:43

And God is free to do so So who did God send Moses down to interact with Jesus and Peter although I don't think he spoke to Peter at all

01:14:57

Is there any other accounts in the Bible of God sending a dead person back to minister to the living

01:15:05

Not that I'm aware of no Are there any teachings in the Bible where God says that he will send a person who's died to minister to the living?

01:15:16

um No, no, our humans and angels the same thing

01:15:26

No, I think humans and angels are two distinct species however to bring to bear what

01:15:33

I was getting at in that last question was There was a belief that humans would become angel like in the sense of we're gonna become part of a heavenly host and that's why you have statements like that his face became like the face of an angel and There's almost like that.

01:15:47

I guess the term would be apotheosis There's like a glorification So we go into a class of the heavenly host even though we're not technically the same species as angels

01:15:57

We become like angels and even Jesus kind of alludes to this when he talks about marriage Okay.

01:16:03

Thank you for clearing that up You have any verse or passage that supports the unquiet dead theory so the unquiet dead is

01:16:17

Basically the concept that people linger around for unfinished business and no, I don't have you could art

01:16:24

There's a passage in Job where he talks about a spirit gliding past him but it's way too ambiguous to use you also have the passages in Isaiah that talk about the

01:16:32

Rephaim and the May team and the e -team and the e -team is the cognate of the Akkadian word a

01:16:37

Temu which is Unambiguously, it means ghost. But again, even the Isaiah passage. It's ambiguous enough where I'm not gonna like rest my case on that Do you have any?

01:16:49

passages or scripture That support spirit the spirit of a person getting stuck between this life and the next

01:16:57

Duck No, I don't have anything explicit no Theologically speaking, how would you explain a ghost coming back for unfinished business?

01:17:14

So I'm willing to admit this is something that I'm that I'm open to I am

01:17:20

I don't want people to think that I'm arguing every single person becomes a ghost for 13 days

01:17:26

And then no this it's just something that's been observed Universally and there are common motifs where some like El Paine or in Homer's Odyssey is not given the proper funeral

01:17:37

So he begs to get the proper funeral and you know Paul had unfinished business is just it's a way of Describing a common motif with ghosts and shows that because there's all these commonalities with ghostly appearances

01:17:51

It shows that there's something objective and not subjective. I'm not trying to explain I know the exact parameters for what's an unfinished business versus a someone that can move on.

01:18:01

I that's way beyond me Do you think that a person's ghost can get stuck in this life if they have like a violent or sudden death

01:18:12

Yes On what they least temporarily Okay, on what basis do you make that conclusion

01:18:21

Experience history and tradition. Unfortunately, I don't have a scripture passage for or against that particular belief

01:18:30

Okay. Thank you Do you agree that some of the paranormal phenomena and ghosts that we?

01:18:38

Hear about today that they are of demonic origin Yeah, like I said,

01:18:43

I believe some ghostly apparitions like like the there's false apparitions to many Saints like st

01:18:49

Anthony st. Gregory of Tours Sorry, st. Martin of Tours, and I also believe that some level of mysterious psychic functioning exists and people may just hallucinate like they might like Have this they might get supernatural knowledge through psychic functioning and project a ghost

01:19:07

I can't the reason I'm not inclined to that but I also can't rule it out So I'm open to all of the above and like I said,

01:19:14

I can't a hundred percent prove that ghosts exist I just think my case is more probable based on the principle of phenomenal conservatism

01:19:23

Yeah, thank you Who do you think psychics and mediums communicate with All of the above I mean, there's a really good argument that mediums are just Telepathically picking up on information from their sitters and then just like conjuring up a fake ghost

01:19:44

There was a group called the Phillips Circle in Toronto where they literally created a fake ghost.

01:19:50

They gave him a fake Birthday a fake history and everything and then they started seeing like table wraps and all kinds of really bad juju stuff

01:19:58

But this ghost kind of acted on its own and they created it out of their own Projections even though this guy never existed.

01:20:05

So I think mediums could be just using psychic abilities They could be contacting demons. I'm very skeptical about any medium that claims they can conjure up a spirit

01:20:15

I'm extremely skeptical of it. Obviously, it's something that is it's like, how would you rule that out?

01:20:21

I don't know but it I am in favor of what's in the deliverance manual for the

01:20:27

Anglican Church which practices spirit release where they will do a memorial service or A Eucharist and they'll pray for a spirit to move on Because that's not like conjuring a ghost and trying to get an oracle from it necromancy.

01:20:40

It's releasing So I'm I'm open to that sort of thing so if How would you know that a spirit that shows up?

01:20:51

To give you a message is on a a blessed mission from God So you you have to exercise discernment?

01:21:00

If you know if I go if a ghost gave me a phone call, you know, if I got a phone call from my deceased grandmother

01:21:07

I would First of all, I'd be very suspicious and I would test it against God's Word and you know, if it's just something like If it's like hey, you should move to Canada and and become a shaman.

01:21:22

Well, I could be a little suspicious if it's just something like hey You know, yeah, what would be a generic message from the hey, you should keep serving the

01:21:32

Lord and keep praying and hold true to the end Well, I'll be like well that lines up with a Bible if it's something in between it would be harder to determine like hey

01:21:40

If you're like if I was contemplating Changing careers and I got a call from my dead grandmother about changing careers

01:21:47

Well that I can't tell for or against I would have to consult with other people It's been a lot of time in prayer and test the spirits

01:21:54

There's not some of those messages would not have an easy answer Okay Do you think that there is a danger in Christians seeking out interactions with the paranormal if they believe that Spirits can come back to give them messages from God Yes, I do believe that and I also and on the flip side if you let me just mention this

01:22:19

I think the spiritualist movement in the New Age movement are what my friend Matt Arnold calls the unpaid bills of the church because we

01:22:29

Immediately rule out all ghostly apparitions as demonic We're not we're not really seeking to understand what's going on and people flock to Mediums that are more than willing to go down that rabbit hole with them

01:22:42

And I know we kind of discussed this in the last debate but neither one of us really touched on it here

01:22:48

Do you believe Christians shouldn't be involved with the paranormal It depends what you mean

01:22:54

I I I study parasitology My professor is a Roman Catholic and I study with some

01:23:02

New Age people some scientists some evangelical Christians On a scientific level, but if you mean things like hey, let's go astral project and go like spy on these people

01:23:14

Which is a whole nother story in itself, I'm not advocating, you know crystal balls and tarot cards and if that's what you're talking about Okay Specify more.

01:23:23

Do you think Christians should be going out ghost hunting to try to interact with the spirit world? so I hate the term ghost hunting because No matter what it's bad if it's demons

01:23:34

You're in for more than you bargained for if it's human spirits Why are you hunting them and why are you trying to make an exhibition of them?

01:23:40

It's kind of like those exhibitionist exorcists, which I believe in exorcism, but I don't like that stuff so I think spirit release there's a book called requiem healing and If you go to Matt McGuire net, you'll see a podcast where I I and my friend

01:23:54

Brandon Spain I think he's watching right now we interviewed two Anglican priests that would go to haunted locations and they would practice a

01:24:02

Eucharist service and Pray for the release of the spirit and many dozens and dozens of people just report

01:24:09

The disturbances ceasing so I I do think the church should have a role there So that people aren't flocking to spiritualist and New Age sources to take care of those problems

01:24:20

Okay Do you think there is a danger about getting involved in the spiritual world?

01:24:27

Yes, in fact, I don't want to keep plugging my stuff. I wrote a three -part essay in the last

01:24:34

Talking about psychic abilities and paranormal stuff in the third essay was called the risks of Developing psychic abilities.

01:24:41

There's a lot of risk when you're starting to open these doors You're you you really need to be careful you need to be soaked in God's Word soaked in prayer if you're gonna be involved in any of this sort of stuff because You are vulnerable if you're not if you're not spiritually mature.

01:24:58

I Agree with that Um So just just to expound on this a little bit more how would you try to fit ghosts into a theological system

01:25:14

I Would say ghosts are part of the intermediate state between death and the final judgment

01:25:21

They can be they don't ghosts don't have to be lingering on the earth They could just be in some other dimension some sort of Hades or paradise

01:25:31

But in either case, it's just one aspect of the intermediate state for a

01:25:37

Christian, is it more important to stick around on earth to finish business or would it be more important to be in the presence of our

01:25:47

Lord and Savior I think that's a That question is

01:25:54

Non sequitur is not the right word, but it would be like saying, you know, if you're an angel Am I allowed to answer a question with a question just to illustrate is that okay

01:26:03

Andrew? Yeah, yeah, okay That would be like saying to an angel like what's more important worshiping

01:26:09

God or going to save someone from being hit by a train? Well, it's like whatever Whatever happens to be the mission at the moment

01:26:17

I mean, why can't like I mentioned the story of the New Testament translator JB Phillips He saw the apparition of CS Lewis a few days after Lewis died and he got words of encouragement that led to him

01:26:27

Finishing his translation of the New Testament that has blessed thousands of people Why why you could say it's more important for CS Lewis to go to God And never and never do any kind of mission, you know, but like it's it's a non sequitur or it's a false dichotomy

01:26:43

That's the word I'm looking for. It doesn't have to be either or there could be a purpose in something like that All right, fair enough and time is running out.

01:26:52

So Here's just a fun question for you So for paranormal investigators they investigate the paranormal

01:27:00

Thus the paranormal becomes normal for them. So then what would be paranormal to prepare normal investigator?

01:27:08

Is that just a rhetorical that's just rhetorical and kind of fun since we ran out of time so Real question is pineapple on pizza.

01:27:17

Yes or no? No Yes right So before we get to closing comments,

01:27:24

I'm just gonna have to you know, call out Matthew here What do you have against me?

01:27:30

You're talking about bad juju, you know, what does everyone got against us Jewish people you got?

01:27:36

Come on My friend my friend Justin Peters always says that they're like bad you do

01:27:42

I'm like what what I do At least once during the show

01:27:50

I told him that we would make that happen I'll have to get a more culturally sensitive term.

01:27:56

All right Hey, look, you know when people are looking to be offended they can find it everywhere, right?

01:28:04

All right, we're gonna get to the closing Closing arguments which will start with with Matthew and he will have five minutes

01:28:14

So Matthew whenever you're ready, I will start the clock when you start speaking

01:28:20

All right. Um, so again, I just want to point out that I don't think my case can be a hundred percent proven

01:28:27

I think it's more probable than not that the scriptures assume this universal human experience that people have

01:28:35

Observed from all centuries and all cultures and there's nothing explicit in the Bible that rules it out.

01:28:41

There are some ambiguous Passages in the Old Testament Which really reveal more about the progressive revelation of the afterlife than they do about ruling out ghosts

01:28:53

And so based based on that No, no passages against it and based on universal human experience based on reason and based on Tradition, which there's a long history of this.

01:29:04

I think that ghosts are part of the intermediate state and Just to wrap up Some of the final questions that were brought up So What what

01:29:19

Daniel advocates is he believes the Bible teaches a what I call the or what my friend

01:29:24

Matt Arnold calls the straight -up straight -down view Where as soon as you die, you're immediately like teleport would be a pedestrian word, but basically that's it

01:29:33

You're teleported to some faraway place But I would point out that it It That's a very flat reading of Scripture Let's just take for example the the very likely probability that when

01:29:45

Paul was stoned He experienced a near -death experience and this may be what he describes in 2nd

01:29:50

Corinthians where he says whether I was in the body or out Of the body I do not know and he went into the third heaven and he saw many majestic things and then he returned to Tell us about it and there's a lot of crossover with the modern literature on near -death experiences.

01:30:04

So it's not ironclad But there's there's good Phenomenological evidence for that because of the similarities of his experience in this and what we read about in near -death experience literature

01:30:16

And I would also say just just from a again. I'm gonna use experience here So watch out, but my own wife when she had an emergency surgery

01:30:25

Hemorrhaged a whole lot of blood and she exited her body and hovered above it and watched things going on for a while And then returned to her body.

01:30:34

So I can't prove that she was dead I mean, maybe this was a like some sort of really advanced hallucination while she was passing out.

01:30:42

It's it's possible I can't rule it out because she didn't have what we call corroborative information But this happens to people all over the world.

01:30:50

It is Insanely common and if you're if you read chapter 7 of my book you'll you'll see the literature in the the resources to back that up So I only bring that up to say a lot of people will die and leave their body and linger around and Some of those other cases they really do see things that they couldn't have seen.

01:31:07

Otherwise, so am I to attribute this to? You know demonic intervention because the you know, the

01:31:13

Bible says you go immediately up or you go immediately down. I just think instead of Just blinding our eyes to the obvious experience in front of us.

01:31:24

We should go Hey, maybe I'm just reading scripture a little bit too flat. Maybe I'm just You know over literalizing as Daniel himself put it earlier

01:31:33

I think that's what's going on here is there's a real fear and there's a healthy fear of People getting involved with the paranormal and getting obsessed with contacting dead spirits, which

01:31:43

I do not approve of I I think the biblical prohibitions on necromancy still stand but I think there's there's a motivation there and historically as well with with The polemics against the

01:31:55

Catholic doctrine of purgatory. There's a lot of motivations there that are tilting our interpretation of scripture to Call call all ghosts demons instead of just you know

01:32:06

Seeing what's in front of us and making fair sense of it. That's I'll yield the rest of my minute

01:32:14

Okay, let me Bring Daniel back in I'll put you backstage

01:32:22

Daniel I will restart the clock and you give your closing comments So then what are ghosts and how do we account for paranormal activity from a biblical perspective

01:32:36

Well, if you've seen a ghost, it's really either one of two things One you're attributing something to a ghost that is natural and you just do not know what it was

01:32:48

Or two it is a demon pretending to be the ghost of a dead person concerning option one

01:32:53

Ghost stories and the paranormal have become one of the most popular subjects for Hollywood television program internet videos social media and pop culture in general

01:33:03

Just about everyone and their great aunt twice removed on their mother's side has heard a ghost story or seen a paranormal related video

01:33:12

With this mass assault of paranormal media on us We are becoming accustomed to watching for things that are out of the ordinary and we're becoming aware of when we are in Situations that mirror what we have seen or read about in paranormal shows and stories

01:33:27

Thus when something happens that we can't immediately explain as natural our brains quickly attribute it to being a ghost or something

01:33:35

Paranormal as our brains connect what just happened to us with a ghost story or paranormal show or horror movie that we have read

01:33:42

Or watched that is similar to the situation that we are currently in I believe this is the main reason there are so many claims of people having experienced paranormal activity today concerning often to Demons are fallen angels.

01:33:57

We see this in Revelation to 12 for as such They are superhuman and supernatural entities when you look in the

01:34:04

Bible and see what angels are capable of doing You see that they can manifest as human like beings.

01:34:10

They can move objects They can speak to us so that we can hear and irregardless of what language we speak and much more

01:34:19

Thus since demons are fallen angels. They have those abilities as well Demons though have a more malicious intent behind what they do they follow the will of Satan and they attempt to deceive people and keep non -christians from turning to God and keep

01:34:32

Christians from following God's will and What better way of doing this than by pretending to be the spirit of a dead person?

01:34:39

The demon can convince a non -christian that is possible for a person to become a ghost when they die

01:34:44

Then that implies to that person that the Bible is wrong about there being only two outcomes to death

01:34:50

Either going to Hades or paradise heaven or hell Thus the non -christian will now more or less seek other answers to what happens after we die and reject the

01:35:00

Bible as in their minds They are convinced that ghosts are real If a demon can get a Christian to believe that a person can stick around as a ghost after they die then that Christian will no longer be truly believing what

01:35:11

God tells us in the Bible and is on a slippery dangerous slope of becoming more focused on paranormal paranormal phenomena than in studying the

01:35:20

Bible praying and living to the glory of God a Christian who gets credence to the belief that ghosts can be spirits to the dead of dead humans

01:35:28

Really doesn't help the point a non -believer to God his word rather His support of ghosts will ultimately push that unbeliever further and further into the world of the paranormal and occult

01:35:40

Thus justifying their belief in ghosts being the spirits of dead people This is why

01:35:45

I say sola scriptura scripture alone We are to stand fast on the Bible examine all by the

01:35:51

Bible and reject all that does not align with the Bible While historical understandings cultural contexts personal experiences are all useful.

01:35:59

They are not the authority in our life The Bible in no way shape or form teaches a category of the blessed dead

01:36:06

That God will send a spirit of a dead saint back to earth on a whole and errand holy errand to minister to a living believer

01:36:13

The Bible also no way shape or form teaches a category of the restless dead who have unfinished business who are bent on causing mischief

01:36:20

While Matthew accuses me of proof texting scripture and reading scripture flatly in my cross -examination of him

01:36:27

He even admits that he has no verses or passages that support the blessed dead the unquiet dead

01:36:32

Unfinished business or spirits getting stuck on earth between this life and the next Whereas I can provide scripture for my positions and I did

01:36:42

Rather we see clearly taught in scripture what we see clearly taught in scripture is that the spirit of a believer goes immediately into the presence of God upon death and The spirit of the unbeliever goes immediately into a place of torment

01:36:54

We also can see that concerning the spiritual realm The only entities that interact with our world are angels and demons angels do the work of God demons fight against the work of God As JC Ryle said the true

01:37:08

Christian was intended by Christ to prove all things by the Word of God all Churches all ministers all teaching all preaching all doctrines all sermons all writings all opinions all practices

01:37:16

These are his marching orders prove all by the Word of God measure all by the measure of the Bible Compare all with the standards of the

01:37:23

Bible weigh in all balances of the Bible examine all by the light of the Bible Test on the crucible of the

01:37:29

Bible that which can abide by the fire of the Bible Receive hold believe and obey that which cannot abide by the fire of the

01:37:35

Bible reject refuse repudiate and cast away This is the standard which Wycliffe raised in England.

01:37:41

This is the flag which nailed to the mast may it never be lowered All right.

01:37:47

I do appreciate it. Sorry. I had to cut you off there just for the record I'd never had to cut Matthew off He was early.

01:37:54

I don't just I went over twice on Matthew on Adams podcast, too So that was my biggest challenge.

01:38:00

Let me bring Adam back in And just look Blake actually solves this whole debate.

01:38:07

Okay proves that Matthew is right here. Here we go. Here's the comment ghosts He defines that he doesn't respond to your text

01:38:16

There you go. Blake just solved The dilemma All right, so we want to get to questions that we had

01:38:32

Just trying to see What Adam had said are you bringing me? Yeah, so Adam I'm bringing you back.

01:38:39

Yeah. Yeah, I wasn't sure. It wasn't sure It's just read that so sorry about that. Um, I Have am

01:38:46

Brewster is backstage Aaron I'm gonna jump right to the questions right away

01:38:52

Don't disappear because I would do want you to be able to give an update on your situation So folks can know and I'll just say up front.

01:38:59

Thanks for the person who donated $150 during this show for the Brewsters and helping them out.

01:39:06

We'll mention that again at the end So I just want to get some of the questions that came up for you guys

01:39:11

Matthew. I'm gonna If it's okay with you direct all the questions that I could find that are directed to you first Because I know you have to go with a young family.

01:39:22

They're at home. So Is that all right with you? And then we will direct questions to Daniel after if there's if there's time and some of them were not directed specifically to a person so Let me see

01:39:39

Let me just put this one up that came up And it should be for each of you What would be the purpose of God allowing the souls of dead people to linger on earth?

01:39:50

There was more directed to you Matthew, but I'll give you two minutes to answer and then if you want to have a response

01:39:58

You know Daniel go for it, but yeah, that's a that's a great question Thank you, Danine for asking that and I think that's one of the things we scratch our heads of when these ghostly encounters happen

01:40:10

So I wasn't able to unpack it totally in the debate but in in the the 50 pages

01:40:16

I wrote on ghosts in my book I Distinguished the the church's historic understanding of the unquiet dead and the blessed dead the unquiet dead are typically people that are troubled at the time of death and the blessed dead are

01:40:29

Examples of saints that come down for a holy mission so I think that the lingering thing is more associated with what we call the unquiet dead and As I said earlier the the idea of the intermediate state for people that are in what we call

01:40:43

Hades or or the underworld or Intermediate afterlife. There's a lot of different terms you could use for it.

01:40:50

It's sort of a holding place before the final judgment So we don't know exactly what that looks like in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus Which is one of the only pictures we get and we're not sure how much is symbolic and how much is literal the rich man is undergoing torment and He you know, he wants his family he's anxious about his family and this and that so why would it

01:41:12

I Guess I would answer that with asking. Why do they have to be in some faraway holding place?

01:41:20

Why why couldn't they be? suffering observing what's going on in the world and and I think the

01:41:26

Spirits are our supernatural beings and that we overlap with them with angels interact with us sometimes. So perhaps spirits can interact

01:41:34

I don't know if you know, I Don't I don't have a really great answer for that and I can see why that would be that would be someone resisting the whole idea

01:41:46

And throwing it out the window because I can't think of a good reason why God would set it up this way But there's a lot of things in the world that why would

01:41:54

God allow this or why would God's why would God set it up? So Adam sin made us all fall into sin, you know

01:41:59

I don't know the answer but I I don't think that that rules out ghosts Daniel do you want to respond in one minute?

01:42:09

Sure, I have a very simple response Biblically speaking I don't see any purpose of God allowing the souls of dead people to linger on earth

01:42:18

The Bible makes it clear that we as believers go to be with the presence of the Lord when we die and the unbeliever gets

01:42:24

Kept in a place of torment Hades the underworld and so the final judgment

01:42:31

All right, so I'm gonna I think you said that This is from a friend of yours

01:42:37

Matthew Brandon Spain said Wouldn't a theme and sad to see see all the supernatural as superstition

01:42:49

Yes. Well, thank you Brandon for watching. He's he's he Interviewed these

01:42:55

Anglican deliverance ministers with me. So he's a good friend. So it's interesting.

01:43:00

He brings that up I think the answer is yes, and in fact at the time of the restoration in England ghosts were used by people like Richard Baxter to debunk all of the

01:43:10

Sadducees the sad you see ism where people were starting to starting to doubt spirits and doubt the

01:43:16

Bible and he's like well We know the Bible is true because of spirits like ghosts So yeah, sad you sees would would debunk all of supernatural including angels and ghosts as superstition

01:43:27

They'd also debunk demons too. They didn't have any supernatural worldview Although I would sorry if I can just say one little thing

01:43:36

There's debate as to whether Sadducees believed in angels. I actually think they did believe in some angels just I don't want to get into this long thing.

01:43:44

But basically When it says Sadducees don't believe in the spirits Or the resurrection or angels sometimes it's understood as resurrection as Angels or like angels so there is some debate about that, but they certainly did not believe in a conscious afterlife for humans yeah, all right, not sure if there's much debate within Judaism on that but But yeah, so this one came up earlier

01:44:12

And this is when you were talking Matthew. So I think it was directed to you They thought John was the ghost of John I think they meant

01:44:22

Jesus was the ghost of John when he came when he came to a door Why oh, no, they thought

01:44:27

John was the ghost of John when he came to door Maybe they're thinking Peter was the ghost of Peter. I think he might be thinking

01:44:32

Act 12, so I think they meant Peter Yeah, maybe let's assume

01:44:39

Peter Unless he's commenting live and can tell us If he actually meant

01:44:44

John but let's assume Peter and Matthew, I'll let you respond first I'm assuming he means

01:44:51

Peter at the door So I'm just gonna pull up what

01:44:57

I say about this passage and While you're pulling that up Matthew Make sure that you send me the link to your notes so that I can include that in the show notes and for folks

01:45:12

I will be including the Podcast the bold apology a podcast where they did their first debate since they kept referring to that So you can see where Adam Parker is the moderator of that debate

01:45:27

And my just my suggestion is while you're there Maybe follow bold apology a podcast and check out some of their other episodes.

01:45:36

Okay, I pulled it up Thank you for that. And like I said, my notes are all You know

01:45:43

Matt McGuire net you'll see right on the left -hand side my notes for the debate easy. So this is what Dale Allison He's a

01:45:49

New Testament scholar at Princeton. Don't hold that against him and He says although this could refer to Peter's guardian angel.

01:45:56

It's possible It's equally possible that angel here means his departed spirit some early

01:46:03

Christians when hearing that Stephen space became right before his death like that of an angel might have supposed that he was turning Into an angel or like an angel furthermore the martyrdom of Polycarp, which comes from the second century claims that in the hour of their martyrdom certain martyrs were no longer human

01:46:19

But already angels, so there's this belief that people become angels or at least angel -like in at the time of their deaths

01:46:27

Therefore that's the reason we would look at this phrase his angel and and understand as euphemism for his ghost

01:46:33

But again, I don't claim that's ironclad proof I just think the weight of the evidence is probably that interpretation

01:46:42

Daniel do you want to respond at all? No, I don't really have any response to that that's fine

01:46:50

Covering that so This is again Matthew from your friend brand Brandon said and and this you know,

01:46:59

I tried to grab these questions sometimes They lose context, but he just said but how do we interpret without those tools?

01:47:05

I think I'm not sure which tools he was referring to at the time I'd be referring to like reason and experience.

01:47:13

I I'm thinking that it might be when you guys were talking experience Or the

01:47:19

West Lane quadrilateral Yeah, so Brandon, oh, let's put this way. We'll table this one

01:47:25

Brandon if you are still in the chat Just maybe give some context to that This was a question

01:47:35

Okay, this was a question for you Matthew Are Roman Catholics correct in praying to Mary and the

01:47:43

Saints since you believe they can hear us? So I'm I'm not there.

01:47:49

I can't approve of what Roman Catholics do. I know my My the closest I can get is my friend

01:47:56

Matt Arnold He says he will say he'll like pass along a message and ask

01:48:02

Ask God to have the message sent along to them and we actually talked about this in our last debate

01:48:07

Daniel where I've told people in ministry and I've dealt with people that are involved in very tragic

01:48:17

Tragic deaths of either loved ones or other people close to them and I've said, you know what? I don't know if they're gonna get the message, but you can pray to Jesus and say

01:48:25

Jesus if it's okay Can you pass this message? I don't I don't know if that does anything, but I think that's okay

01:48:32

Obviously, I'm not I'm not a Roman Catholic and I don't I don't I'm not there as far as praying to the

01:48:39

Saints or even some Anglo Catholics would do it, but I'm not there Daniel any response

01:48:45

I Don't think they can hear us when we pray to them We're only ever directed in Scripture to pray to God So I would disagree that they're correct in that position, right and I want to clarify

01:48:57

I'm not saying all the the deceased are omnipresent Yes, I think that actually was a different question that we had come up Adam and it looked like you might have wanted to say something on that.

01:49:10

Were you I There there were you guys made the clarification I wanted to help

01:49:16

Matt out as I figured there's some people I've got I just got to say there's some people in the comments here who if they can

01:49:24

Misunderstand what Matt is saying they will and it's kind of interesting to see

01:49:33

Danino kind of has my attention here in the chat She's like she's like is

01:49:39

Matt a Roman Catholic And then and then he says he had a

01:49:47

Roman Catholic professor and she's like see he must be a Roman Catholic and I think that's what got her to ask if he's first.

01:49:55

She first mentioned the Roman Catholic. Oh, yeah. Yeah, okay my bad This guy this question was the question that came first and then it was is

01:50:03

Matt a Roman Catholic Yeah, and that or no, then it was see,

01:50:08

I Something like I knew it and then she asked if he was a Roman Catholic and I think Brandon Spain kind of help clarify

01:50:15

He is Busting on her or going after her saying guilt by associated he made a comment about me being friends with Justin Peters and said

01:50:23

Oh, I see that explains a lot or something So I think what Brandon was trying to do there was kind of point out

01:50:30

The problem with what Dineen was doing there and it is a problem logically, you know and obviously this is a debate and And Let's say

01:50:41

Dineen was arguing that as as her perspective like aha Matt had a

01:50:46

Roman Catholic Professor therefore he believes that Mary can hear your prayers and actually that would be a really bad argument

01:50:55

That humble class can marry here can marry here all the prayers in all languages all around the globe

01:51:05

So, I'll start with you Matthew, what what do you think it's not a question for me No Yeah, I would just answer.

01:51:15

No. Yeah, I I would agree. Yeah, that's kind of a That's one of the arguments

01:51:20

I have against Catholicism. Oh, by the way, I have to put this one up just because it was funny Matthew's comment, but Vincent says a frozen juju

01:51:29

Andrew Rappaport For Matthew and and Actually for all you guys that may not get it

01:51:36

Aaron Brewster gets it in the background. I do cold plunges I'm looking forward to tomorrow morning when it'll be 14 degrees outside and I will be in a plunge.

01:51:44

So that is the frozen juju part Cool, dad you do but the frozen juju you spell juju wrong.

01:51:52

Yeah, I know It's Snow today, so I will be going out into the snow into the cold plunge.

01:52:00

So yeah, it's trying not to trigger YouTube the YouTube algorithm Yeah, I have it or Facebook that's he's face

01:52:10

I got I got and You know a lot like a week. I couldn't post on Facebook for commenting to a fellow

01:52:19

Brazilian jiu -jitsu Artist that I was gonna choke him out and I got accused of violence

01:52:28

This is just something we do in jiu -jitsu we we choke people like it's it wasn't violent it's

01:52:35

I Had a similar thing with Facebook a couple years ago. It's it's different but you know,

01:52:42

I shared a I Was talking with someone in a comment section we were just jabbing back and forth and and I sent this picture of a big dog and a little dog and I said you're the little dog and This Facebook like cut me off for like three days because I called him a dog a little dog

01:53:03

Now that they admit that they actually were censoring when they said they weren't you know now it's all good, right

01:53:11

I mean, I know I Absolutely, I want retroactive amnesty because I don't think they're gonna go back and unmark my me so let me

01:53:21

Look, there was another one from Brandon's Spain And I want to put this one up So I think

01:53:27

Daniel this one may be more for you, but I wanted to do while Matthew is here So I'll ask it of you

01:53:33

Brandon says could one not be in the presence of the Lord on earth does

01:53:40

Does that not cut into the doctrine of omniscience Omnipresence omnipresence, sorry

01:53:49

Big difference, but it was that wasn't as bad as you know, referring to Paul as Satan. So Of course you remembered that Well, actually

01:53:59

I remembered it because I was thinking of editing that out. But now I can't because you know that comment So I'll let you start with that one

01:54:09

Daniel I mean Well, the Bible tells us we are in the presence of the

01:54:15

Lord here on earth as believers We are the spirit of the Holy Temple Christ dwells in us.

01:54:20

So we are in his presence. He is omnipresent So we're in his presence, but death is going to be

01:54:28

Physically present with him not just spiritually present as we are now Matthew any response?

01:54:36

Yeah, I think what the question is getting at is If you can admit the fact that you can be in the presence of the

01:54:43

Lord in some sense God is with you as a Christian then the fact that let's say you're

01:54:50

CS Lewis appearing to JB Phillips it's not like he's out of the presence of the

01:54:56

Lord like it's the verse that Paul says to depart and be with the Lord does not exclude the idea of Doing something on earth

01:55:05

So I think that's what the question is getting at I just have a hard time when Paul makes a clear distinction between being present physically in the body on earth to do things on earth as opposed to being

01:55:18

Present with the Lord in heaven. He makes he makes a clear distinction there and he doesn't

01:55:23

Qualify it is still being able to stay in and help out on earth. So it just seems odd to me that Your your view on that Well, I could

01:55:33

I just jump in there on that because I think we see we see something interesting in Jonah Right away.

01:55:40

God gives Jonah this seemingly impossible Command and rather than going north to Nineveh.

01:55:49

He goes south to Joppa and it says that he went to flee from the presence of the

01:55:55

Lord and It's obvious that You know it like Psalm 139 says where can

01:56:02

I go from your spirit? Where can I flee from your presence if I you know go here you're there if I go to the depths you're there

01:56:10

Could it be that this this idea of of the presence of God that there are moments in history and Salvation history.

01:56:24

Let's take even for example When God with his two angels shows up to meet with Abraham. He's in the presence of the

01:56:31

Lord more than Jonah was in the presence of the Lord when he was in rebellion in that boat.

01:56:38

And so I think there's a lot of Hyperbolic speech that goes into it with this but Theologically you can never be outside of the presence of the

01:56:51

Lord because he is omnipresent But I think this ties closely in with what you're saying there

01:56:57

Daniel Spiritually, you can step away from the presence of the Lord one can one can be in rebellion like Jonah was and and it's actually said that Jews believed that the presence of God was distinctly tied to the land of Israel because that was where the

01:57:15

Covenant was and so By fleeing away from the presence of the

01:57:21

Lord, you've got Jonah He flees down to Joppa gets into the boat and he's going to Tarshish which was believed to be the furthest point west

01:57:30

So he's trying to get as far away spiritually speaking from God as possible and so in that sense

01:57:38

I Understand the idea of being outside of the presence of the Lord spiritually

01:57:45

While at the same time you can't be outside of the presence of the Lord, it's it's kind of a Hard thing to wrap your mind around but I see a lot to that Alright, let's see if we can get to the rest of these

01:57:58

I know Matthew you do have to go whenever you have to go. Let me know I know

01:58:06

Let me say I think this was more to you Daniel, so I'll ask it of you and then give it to Matthew Kathy says

01:58:12

Jesus said that there was a this is dealing with the And I'm gonna give away my position the parable of Lazarus and the rich man

01:58:22

We could debate that sometime maybe someone but Jesus said there was a great goal fixed that you cannot pass over.

01:58:30

What did that mean? and is not Superstition involved in much of ghost speculation

01:58:37

So I'll start with I think that was this question came up Daniel while you were speaking So I'll start with you and then let

01:58:43

Matthew respond Okay, and I do agree. It's a parable, but I also agree that there are spiritual truths that we can glean from parables and Kathy is correct because it says that the rich man also died and was buried in Hades He lifted up his eyes being in torment and saw

01:59:01

Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom Tried out said father Abraham have mercy on me and send

01:59:06

Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and Cool off my tongue for I'm in agony in this flame

01:59:11

But Abraham said child remember your life to receive good things Lazarus bad now.

01:59:17

He is comforted here You're in agony Then Abraham says in Jesus's parables with Jesus speaking and besides all this between us and you there is a great chasm

01:59:25

Fixed or a great gulf depending on translation So that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able and that none may cross over from there to us so Jesus in the parable is is teaching that there's a gulf separating those who believe the righteous dead from the who are in Abraham's bosom in paradise and in the presence of God on one side versus the unrighteous the unbelievers who are

01:59:54

Being held in Hades until the resurrection and their ultimate destiny in hell So that's what's being taught in that passage and I do agree that there is a lot of superstition that goes into Much of the ghost speculation.

02:00:10

I think I talked about that in my closing statement We are so inundated with stories about ghosts the media

02:00:18

Hollywood movies social media that Oftentimes if you're sitting in your house by yourself and you hear two knocking sounds

02:00:27

Most likely it's the house settling the wind blowing up against the house something natural But because we're so inundated with this belief in the paranormal

02:00:36

First off your mind's gonna probably think that it's a ghost or something in the house with you. That's made those sounds

02:00:42

So I do agree that there's a lot of superstition that that goes into a lot of the paranormal beliefs

02:00:48

Matthew Yep, I agree with what Daniel said the gulf is between compartments of the afterlife not between the afterlife and the earth

02:00:58

Although again, it's just I don't know how much of that should be taken literally and how much is just a teaching moment

02:01:05

Okay Let's see This was asked a couple of times and I think it was when you were speaking

02:01:15

Matthew, but He kept asking what are they dying though and which death physical or spiritual

02:01:22

So as you guys kept mentioning death, I he a little bit of the context was missing in it but I think what he's asking is

02:01:31

When you speak of death, are you speaking of physical death or spiritual death? I think was the question

02:01:37

I'm trying to read into the question No, no, I'm not sure. I understand the question. Yeah All right, so then we'll pass on that one um

02:01:50

Let's see. This one doesn't have much context either. I know Adam wanted to address said that we should address this that This person had said familiar spirits not familiar spirits demons

02:02:05

Adam I'll just ask you you you this wasn't really a question, but you were like we should address this. So yeah,

02:02:11

I just I suspect that he misunderstood what was being said with regard to Demons, I believe

02:02:21

Matt you were saying something at the beginning of your opening statement and I just wanted to see if you were

02:02:28

Wanting to clarify what you were saying as far as familiar or familial spirits.

02:02:35

I Don't think I mentioned familiar spirits. Okay, but if you have a specific question,

02:02:41

I could answer He said this during your monologue So I Was under the impression that he was responding to or trying to refute something you said

02:02:50

So really? Yeah, there wasn't specifically a question to it. So All right.

02:02:57

So this was again. Sorry about this but context Brandon has this question of Daniel, but I don't know the car.

02:03:07

He just said how did God? Yeah, it was being called out of paranormal, yeah, that's what

02:03:13

I that's what I was assuming So I will I don't know that Matthew will have much of a comment on this, but he might so So yeah, this was in my opening statement when

02:03:22

I said I was a ghost hunter paranormal investigator for about 10 years before God called Me out of that Well in 2019,

02:03:28

I was having a talk with my boss at the time he knew I was a paranormal investigator, but also that I called myself a

02:03:34

Christian and He was asking me questions about the paranormal and I talked at paranormal conferences

02:03:40

I talked at horror film festivals I'd written Articles on this I'd made many videos and documentaries on this and considered myself an expert

02:03:49

Even gotten degrees and certified as a certified paranormal investigator But all the questions my boss asked

02:03:56

I kept responding with like we think it's this it could be this there's this theory There's that theory some people think this

02:04:02

I had no actual answer for him and That got me thinking.

02:04:07

It's like whoa How can I be an expert on this if I don't actually have an answer for him? It's all just Speculation at this point and he kind of realized that too and laughed and went well

02:04:17

That's why you keep going out there, isn't it? I said, yeah, that's why we keep going out to find answers But in ten years,

02:04:23

I had no answers Well, then he asked what are ghosts and so I dove right back into all the different The categories and theories at the time it could be the spirits of dead people

02:04:34

They could just be trapped here It could be this could be that and then out of the blue I blurted out and it could all be demons

02:04:42

And now that was a position I had thought about in forever That was one that my buddy

02:04:47

Dylan and I went back when he started the team had kind of ruled out as just the Christian way of saying well

02:04:54

Paranormal bad all demons, but even when I talked to some Christians about it They didn't have answers as to why they said that So that just came out of the blue and that got me thinking.

02:05:05

Well, what are demons? Well demons are angels or fallen angels. Well, where do

02:05:10

I know that from the Bible? It's like, okay well, let's look at the Bible about what the Bible says about angels and demons and See if that adds up at all.

02:05:20

And as soon as I opened up the Bible and started Reading the Bible and seeing what it had to say it started answering questions left and right that I had been seeking about the paranormal from secular sources and from personal firsthand experiences and in ten years had gotten no answers and Right there in the pages of the

02:05:40

Bible all 66 books. I was getting answers So that's how God called me out of that using his word okay,

02:05:47

Matthew, I doubt that you have much to comment on that because All right, so down to two and then

02:05:53

I'm gonna bring Aaron in one that I don't think That isn't for you guys, but I'll answer so Kathy's asking

02:06:00

Has God confused us about his ability over souls or the human bodies at death and this was

02:06:08

During when you were speaking there Matthew, so I think it's directed to you. I'm not sure if it's a

02:06:16

Again, some of the questions are not always always super clear Sorry, I was just reading the chat

02:06:22

Yeah, I can see why people would make that inference and Daniel earlier said well if people believe ghosts

02:06:29

Then they're gonna think the Bible is untrue What when I would just say that it's like someone that believes like Harold camping and his followers that thought hey

02:06:37

I've looked at all the passages Christ is coming back in 2009 and when Christ doesn't come back they abandon their faith

02:06:43

Well, I would just say you just had a wrong interpretation of the Bible to begin with Okay Daniel any response to this

02:06:51

I would say no because God makes it clear what happens to our souls and our body at death and what will happen at the end of The resurrection when we get our glorified bodies for us as believers or for unbelievers eternal torment in their bodies

02:07:06

Okay, one one last question that we have here. I'm gonna answer it I started because I'm gonna be the one to answer this so you guys are off the hook and then after that I know

02:07:15

Matthew's gonna end up having ghosts and we'll bring Aaron in but I just could not let this one go

02:07:21

Bob Leander said God's Word doesn't give full revelation about the spirit realm.

02:07:28

This is when you were talking Daniel He said example very practically speaking There are many very effective

02:07:34

Christian deliverance ministries who use extra biblical Deliverance techniques and he gave an example of some like Heidi Baker.

02:07:43

So let me be really clear We will probably have in February Jim Osmond who is working on his book on the these deliverance ministries and demon hunters

02:07:55

They use extra biblical deliverance techniques because they are doing non biblical

02:08:01

In fact, let me be more specific unbiblical things Heidi Baker is a heretic if she's your example

02:08:09

You need to repent Bob First off she shouldn't be teaching in the first place as a woman according to Scripture But when you see with the demon hunters and what they're doing

02:08:24

They are You start looking into their theology and there is it is filled with heresy

02:08:31

And we will get into we're gonna do a whole episode on that in February with Jim Osmond. His book should be coming out

02:08:38

Mmm probably this year I'm thinking Where he's gonna be diving into to this, but if you want to dig more into this you could look up the works

02:08:50

Jim Osmond has a lot on this and so does Justin Peters. I don't have a don't want to get into a whole show on that Figured you guys that's not really a question for you guys was more something that someone put in the the comment

02:09:04

And see so you mentioned that and now you get someone Blake says can a woman have a gift of teaching

02:09:10

Yes, she could teach children. She could teach women. She could teach outside the church, but inside the church

02:09:17

Peter as our Paul is clear see mixing up Paul and Peter is not as bad as Paul and Judas just saying

02:09:28

I thought I'd get a joke a laugh out of Daniel for that, but you know, but yeah, so I just I don't think that women should be teaching in church.

02:09:37

So with that I want to thank both of you There wasn't any name -calling other than when

02:09:43

Matthew said that I was a bad juju But I don't think he even knew that I was Jewish when he said it and didn't get the joke

02:09:49

Anyway, so but I do want to thank both of you for a very civil debate very informative debate

02:09:55

I think that either way you gave people a lot to think about a lot to discuss. So I think that's helpful

02:10:00

I will have links to both of your books and Today you'll have your ministry link in as well

02:10:08

Of course, I'll put in the bold apology a podcast and and the first debate you had

02:10:14

So I'll just let you guys I'll start with Matthew any closing comments. You'd like to make before you get going

02:10:20

So just thanks again. I Really enjoy discussing back and forth Daniel's very he's a good faith

02:10:27

Christian and I'm glad we can have a friendly talk about it. If anyone's interested in seeing my writing

02:10:32

I'm easy to find Matt McGuire net and I'm easy to get a hold of in contact.

02:10:38

So feel free to reach out through email and Thanks again Thank you very much for coming in Matt And you're always welcome back on apologetics live any other

02:10:47

Thursday night that we're not doing a formal debate You can always come in ask questions or bring up topics for discussion.

02:10:53

So thanks for coming in I know you got to get to your family Daniel any closing comments you want to make and I Just want to thank everybody for tuning in.

02:11:02

I know Matthew just ghosted us Disappeared before I could say anything to him, but he's actually still he's actually there

02:11:13

Just Being live on here and being gone

02:11:32

Hey see ghosts really are But Matthew, thank you for being a very gracious and friendly debater

02:11:41

Greatly appreciate that. This was a very congenial and gracious debate and That we both agree on a lot of the essentials.

02:11:48

I would say on all the essentials about Christianity and theology especially the gospel so this was not not in any way shape or form trying to accuse either one of us of being heretics just a tertiary issue that we had some disagreements on and his views gave me a lot to think about and forced me to To study my position further to make sure

02:12:10

I understood what I stood on and my position and I thank him for that think

02:12:16

Adam for hosting us first and Andrew for having us back on to you and I've I've had a lot of fun and I hope everybody listening was blessed by this and If you guys have questions for me

02:12:28

I'm easy to get in contact with as well just search 612 ministries on Google.

02:12:33

You can find my website You can find me on Facebook and I'd be happy to answer any questions that other people have alright, and before we get to Aaron which we are gonna use

02:12:44

Darren because I do want to get an update for folks and people Have been asking for an update on his situation.

02:12:49

So Adam give give folks a little bit about what your podcast is about and You know more than just the one debate that you did

02:12:59

I know you did a great one where you had different people of different apologetic views and Suppositionalist one

02:13:08

Yes, so for those listening that particular that particular I guess you could call it it well, it was more of a discussion

02:13:18

Normal like this we what we ended up doing was jumping off of that and we actually did with with all of your guests

02:13:25

Except for me. I ended up pulling in one of our speakers Dan craft to do priests up and so yeah, that was a

02:13:32

We end up expanding on that and that was a really good discussion and and so the bold apology a podcast is a podcast it's apologetics based

02:13:42

But we get into a lot of theology on my podcast as well as church history and other topics we deal with things like church hurt and and what is that and so getting into things like that where you can we're really the idea is to provide answers and responses and and hope for people who have questions and so That is the the gist of it

02:14:10

I've had some really cool guests on I don't know if anyone's ever heard of Phil dozer from Deuteronomy he came on for an episode.

02:14:18

He We talked about Mormonism in that one. I've had a Troy Frazier from revived thoughts

02:14:27

And and he did a great podcast on church history with me there and obviously we've had a really great person to have on a podcast is

02:14:39

Dr. Donald Williams. He's a prolific writer and he actually was part of that discussion that we had the apologetic methodologies and he represented the cumulative case for Christian apologetics and he's come on and he's talked about the resurrection.

02:14:58

We did a defense of Christmas a defensive Easter with him and he also though not being a presuppositional apologist

02:15:07

He did a really good job at explaining in one podcast the basics of what presup is.

02:15:13

So just a Podcast that is a tool for believers and trying to go at it in a conversational way bringing people on the podcast and doing it in a way that will be interesting for people to listen and hear what what

02:15:31

What is being said? So anyway, a good apologist will be able to argue a position that he does not hold to And do it in a way that someone that holds to it can say amen.

02:15:46

Yes That's a skill that people do yes Aaron Brewster you came in late because you're just tardy

02:15:57

Aaron actually Yeah, he teaches on Thursday nights and so he's got to come in late but Aaron we didn't mention at the beginning

02:16:08

About the the situation I gave folks a little bit of an update As far as the fact that we're able to raise the money to replace your

02:16:15

HVAC system with the hurricane We know that now that there's you know million dollar

02:16:22

Hollywood star homes burning up that no one even knows what you know, North Carolina is and that hurricane that's old news

02:16:29

There was you know, that was before an election. So but but bill may not realize that you're kind of still struggling there.

02:16:36

So Give us an update, you know, we I know we we just were able to send you like another

02:16:43

I think it was close to $2 ,000 for for helping with some of the mold And we just actually during this program got someone that donated anonymously another 150.

02:16:52

So What is an update on your on the situation there with with your family and in the house situation?

02:17:00

First of all, thanks for asking. Thanks for telling people about it and to everyone who's praying and giving

02:17:06

Thank you very much The situation well good news yesterday was a

02:17:14

Marked a step in a different direction for the first time in three months.

02:17:19

I was able to Remove something from my garage and put it back into the basement where it originally was pre -flood

02:17:31

We have finally gotten the basement to probably about 95 % where it needs to be so I'll be able to start putting things back down there

02:17:43

We still have a lot of personal possessions that are sitting in our backyard The example that I use is my wife's

02:17:50

China that she inherited from her grandmother I asked her I've asked her a number of different occasions

02:17:57

Do we want to we want to bring those in because you know, whatever and she says no Honestly, they're they're just as safe there as they would be anywhere else

02:18:04

We could put them right now and we don't have any space left in the garage or in the house So that's been sitting out there

02:18:12

All of my it's a bunch of other stuff that was there in the basement Just sitting, you know in the backyard still so the fact that we were able to actually get something

02:18:23

Back into that space and to start that process Was really very encouraging.

02:18:28

We've kind of had a mini celebration last night So that was nice Financially speaking.

02:18:36

There are still a number of needs a number of things left to be done a number of places where we haven't cut corners, but we've had to take

02:18:48

The the less preferential route just because the money hasn't always been there

02:18:53

It's not going to be you know, at the end of the world it's not you know that way but certain things that we're waiting until we have the opportunity to Put them the right amount for example we had a couple of humidifiers dehumidifiers, excuse me running underneath down in the basement and They were just ones that you go to Lowe's or wherever and you buy

02:19:15

But they are they're not they can't keep up with that Continual usage and we had issues with the drainage and so on and so forth.

02:19:22

So getting investing in a good a dehumidifier that can

02:19:27

Continually work in that space is far better than just burning through cheap ones

02:19:33

So things like that I have one of my basement. It took me a while to find one.

02:19:39

That was good. So I'll tell you after We're looking

02:19:47

Yeah, so we are praising the Lord again, obviously because What we've experienced as far greater than what we deserve far better off than many people experienced and We're very thankful to him.

02:20:02

I always use you guys to be to help us in this situation And we are just trusting him day by day taking that next step

02:20:09

I I project that as much as it pains me to say this in my flesh I'm trying to trust the

02:20:14

Lord that his will his best It could be potentially six months

02:20:22

Six more months Total of nine months before I could actually honestly say, okay

02:20:30

We're back to where we were minus the things that Were lost and can't be replaced

02:20:38

We could say, you know all of our belongings are where they're supposed to be everything is Where it was before all of this started in October, so Lord willing it won't take another six months

02:20:50

But one of the issues that we have is that a lot of these jobs I'm the only one here in the family in the house can do it.

02:20:55

My daughter does a great job She helps me out. My son's in college right now So he can't be here for that and Everyone else my family has medical restrictions.

02:21:05

I keep them for being able to help So it's just gonna be a slow process of kind of building back but yeah, please continue to pray and If the

02:21:15

Lord has made it possible for you, please please continue to give so that we can not have to to go into debt to Finalize this and get everything back where it needs to be

02:21:29

Yeah, so folks again, it is give send go comm Slash SFE if you want to help support the

02:21:37

Brewsters This is an opportunity for us as Christians to help a brother in need So if there's anything you could do we have raised about close getting close to thirteen thousand dollars for them out of the like 50 that we need

02:21:53

They're still having a lot of debt in you know, as he's mentioning a lot to pay for to get the

02:22:02

It was interesting talking to Aaron, you know Get too graphic, but you don't think about when floods come into the house

02:22:11

What else is in the floodwater? Like all the sewage that was backed up and now all of that is in your house

02:22:20

And so it's it's not just oh the water dissipates It dissipates and leaves behind Way more than just water and may way more than you'd want and and so there's all that plus the mold now and things like that And as you mentioned health issues and some of the health issues with the mold

02:22:39

So it's it's quite costly to get that taken care of So, you know if anyone can

02:22:48

That you Go ahead I'll just say it was funny that you mentioned that I had a kind of a humorous conversation

02:22:57

It was that it was one of those pathetically humorous conversations with my mom Yesterday I had gotten a number of things

02:23:04

Everything that we got out of the backyard that came out You know was in the backyard had to be cleaned off and then put into the garage

02:23:12

But a lot of the things that were left in the backyard We didn't go through that extra step to clean

02:23:18

Not not entirely and so she and I were it we still have a little bit of snow here and we were talking about You know, what is it gonna take to actually?

02:23:26

To clean this up the way it should be cleaned before to put back into the basement and she and I were like Maybe we're just lazy

02:23:34

Maybe we've just kind of given up. Maybe we don't care anymore but some of this stuff like maybe we can put it back without having to like Because it to get to clean this stuff off.

02:23:45

You can't just hose it off with a regular hose You either need to use a pressure washer or you have to get out there with a scrub brush and you have to wash it

02:23:52

Off. It's so weird. It's like it just looks like dirt But it will not come off with just water.

02:23:58

It has to be scrubbed And so but things like that So if my mom and I were both just sitting there feeling like okay

02:24:05

Maybe we're just we just kind of get into the point where we've almost given up We're willing to put some of this stuff back into the space without completely cleaning it

02:24:13

Or just throw it out. I You're gonna get that too We're clean there are there are some things that still need to be thrown out there are some things out there

02:24:22

I was looking at today as I was moving some more stuff down and I was like, I was like,

02:24:28

I probably just should have gotten rid of this three months ago Yeah, well folks if you can go to give send go .com

02:24:37

slash SFE If you can help out the Brewsters if you can't help out the Brewsters Would you at least consider going to the website and then sharing it on social media?

02:24:48

So maybe one of your friends could help them out. That would be very much appreciated as as Christians, we should be taking care of our own taking care of our fellow brothers and sisters and so I can tell you as You know,

02:25:02

Aaron is one of the speakers of striving fraternity. He runs a non -profit ministry on his own does full -time counseling

02:25:09

And is living on a very meager means so, you know, it's not trying to embarrass him but Any help would be a great help, so I'll just leave it at that next week

02:25:26

I'll be posting I'll post the link for the debate that Was had on dead man walking some time ago and Next week.

02:25:38

I asked Greg Moore if he wanted to come into apologetics live and talk about that debate

02:25:44

I'm gonna say now the two people that debated would say they are both believers

02:25:51

Having a debate. I will disagree with that Because One of the people that was in the debate is someone

02:26:02

I actually went to church with So I'm gonna post a link

02:26:08

For that debate in the in the show notes for the show for next week so you can watch that I'll try to do it early this

02:26:15

I'll try and do it this week. So you have time to watch the debate But it will be very interesting because I will point out some things that Was said

02:26:25

That was well not exactly true about the church. He grew up in so but we're gonna we're gonna have a discussion on that.

02:26:33

So after that well the 30th of January we're gonna talk about full preterism again because well,

02:26:43

I I did an innocent thing You should you just shouldn't do this, you know Adam don't go doing this on X post a poll that just asks.

02:26:52

What's your view pre mill all mill or post mill? I mean, it seems innocent enough.

02:26:58

I'm not taking a position Well, the full preterist came out in full attire

02:27:06

In full attack mode and they were all hyped up to debate. They wanted to debate days

02:27:12

Unrefutable I said good you want to come on and debate it? Yes. Yes. Yes, and then one by one they dropped dropped dropped and then

02:27:20

They had some guy Michael Sullivan who is like their key heel debate I'll debate it and when

02:27:26

I said great, you know, I I'm gonna be bringing in Sam Frost and everyone was like He's such a coward.

02:27:31

He can't he can't debate. He's running scared from from Michael and I went gee, it's

02:27:37

Michael That's going he can't debate now all of a sudden So, I don't know but we'll see whether having

02:27:43

Sam on whether any of those guys will come in and actually argue for the you know unrefutable

02:27:51

Arguments that they have If not, we'll just talk full preterism and understand what it is.

02:27:57

I do love I I was telling our new co -host Tom Shepherd about this earlier today and you know, you guys could could enjoy this but this

02:28:08

Really good debater their their top debater this guy Michael Sullivan Told me that I had to defend

02:28:17

You know Arminian ism and I said, why do I have to defend that I didn't make a claim

02:28:24

He said you put a poll out. I said the poll doesn't take a position He says we'll defend your view

02:28:31

I Said but my views not on millennial ism So I don't have to why would

02:28:39

I have to defend a position that I don't hold to especially when I didn't make an argument To which this woman who wanted to do a written debate with me.

02:28:48

She kept saying why can't you do a written debate? I'll do a written device said well, first off you shouldn't be in a position of teaching So I would never have agreed to a debate with you

02:28:55

So but she she actually this is classic she went to our website is striving for turn org she went to the about section to what we believe posted a link to our doctoral statement and Said I read his doctoral statement.

02:29:11

He's post mill To which someone later corrected her and said I think he's pre mill to which

02:29:19

I said if you would have done just a little basic like Bit of research before you guys all started with telling me what

02:29:26

I believe you would have realized I'm pre mill It's really clear in my doctoral statement.

02:29:31

The fact that you put a link to my doctoral statement and said you read it And then came to the wrong conclusion and you want to debate me?

02:29:40

Yeah This is this is the nature of internet people. They're like a whole different breed

02:29:54

Reasonable and rational and logic. It's just too hard. Yeah, at least she did all the work for you, though Exactly, you know, it really was

02:30:04

I mean my wife's like why you do this like it was fun for a little while and then I just blocked them all but So, yeah, it's funny

02:30:13

It's it's just like you look at this and go do you even recognize the logic you're using?

02:30:19

No, no, you don't like oh This is why we do apologetics live here folks is so that you could see how to do apologetics

02:30:28

We we not just try to give Examples of it. That's what we saw tonight in a formal debate.

02:30:34

We try to teach it We try to explain it why we do what we do and so You know and as I said in February, I'm trying to schedule with You know with Jim Osman, we don't have a date yet, but I'll try schedule with him.

02:30:48

Hopefully February on the Demon Hunters Aaron something you raised your hand like you're in school

02:30:54

Yeah, I know I did. I I there are so many things about this debate. I'd love to comment on we don't have the time we are so so far into Anthony time that it's crazy, but I did want to say an interesting observation

02:31:07

I was actually have to admit that I was kind of surprised to hear a couple guys a couple you guys say that you view the

02:31:14

Situation with Abraham and Lazarus as being simply parabolic But now we're sitting here talking about All different things and I'm curious

02:31:23

Is it not interesting that of the nearly 50 parables that Jesus told that this is the only one that actually names?

02:31:31

individuals in it and also Names two of them and I just that that just doesn't does that strike you as being okay?

02:31:42

Maybe one of these things is not like the other No, it doesn't The argument

02:31:48

Let's take a step back and say what is a parable? We have a man -made argument that says a parable doesn't use personal pronouns or names and not pronouns but but personal names but that's

02:32:02

Not necessarily what a parable is parable is just an illustration. It's a it's a a

02:32:07

You know a heavenly truth used by an earthly means Are you claiming though that a parable is fictional?

02:32:16

Yeah, I don't I don't think that I don't think that there was a real man named Lazarus And and I would argue it and maybe we should do a debate on this it'd be it'd be a lot of fun but The issue being

02:32:29

Abraham's bosom. He's not going to God. He's going to Abraham's bosom That would be one issue that's that's more would be parabolic language since that's not a

02:32:42

Reference to heaven or hell Yeah, so he'd go to God's presence not

02:32:49

Abraham's So there's a lot of parabolic language in there that's a figurative language so yeah, so I'm not

02:32:57

I'm not it doesn't bother me at all that Lazarus is named because that's

02:33:03

You know, that's just a human definition of parable. It's not it's just it's not it's a it's a definition

02:33:10

That we use but it will purposely leave out one that You know when you look at a broader definition of parable that would be used in Judaism.

02:33:20

It wouldn't you wouldn't have that So what do you do with those who say Abraham Abraham's bosom is just another way of saying paradise

02:33:32

Yeah, it's a parabolic way of saying it yes, yeah, yeah, but um

02:33:37

No, no, I I guess the point I'm trying to get at is Is Are you are you saying that?

02:33:47

To be present of the Lord there in heaven, or do you believe? What many believe that there's paradise and then there is there is a

02:34:00

There was a holding place for those who were evil and there was a holding place for the righteous

02:34:05

And that was paradise and that Jesus descended and he yeah

02:34:11

Anyways, I think you understand what I'm saying by now. There's a temporary place when we think of hell

02:34:16

That's a temporary place right because hell or Hades is thrown into the lake of fire

02:34:21

So the permanent place for the undead is is the lake of fire right hell hell or Hades is temporary

02:34:28

Okay. Okay. I'm with you now. All right, I just What we call what we call heaven is temporary as well because they they'll go to the new heaven and new earth

02:34:38

Okay. Yeah, just clarifying questions there. Yeah. Yeah, so Adams point there is a there are people though who do believe that there was a different holding place

02:34:49

Old Testament Then there was the different holding place New Testament, then there will be in the future

02:34:56

Right and Abraham wasn't being the name of that place. Yeah and in in the

02:35:02

Gospels where There were there were those who rose up that that that that was

02:35:07

Jesus emptying paradise and then they would

02:35:14

I'm correct. They then ascended with him He was the father but yes, so I mean that's the view

02:35:20

So I actually came to I spent a good note like like a good number of years three four years on that You know studying that passage out actually taking the position

02:35:31

Aaron that you would have That it was a literal situation

02:35:37

And as I kept studying it and wrestling with it, I ended up realizing it. It's that I believe it's a parable and I actually had a friend of mine who challenged me and disagreed with me and he spent probably a good portion of a year reading a lot of different books and and Dealing with the language and whatnot and and eventually called me up and goes, you know what

02:35:59

I think you're right. So Good go for it

02:36:07

Aaron Go for it. You sure? Okay. I I I've been on the fence with it sometimes because I don't necessarily like the way some people

02:36:18

Extrapolate out different interpretations for what certain things mean then therefore this that and the other things I think

02:36:23

I think sometimes they they stretch the The illustration beyond the reason that Christ gave it

02:36:35

That's what everyone does a lot of people do with parables, right Metaphors too far you want a great example

02:36:43

Leighton flowers. We've had him on here. But that's what late that's my big argument with Leighton with his hermeneutic is he takes parables and Starts to read into the parables like so folks when we have a parable

02:36:55

The parables an illustration of something and if you take it beyond The main point of what the parables pointing to what it's illustrating now

02:37:05

You're starting to abuse the the text or take it out of context To the point that you made earlier

02:37:13

I was just gonna make the observation that you mentioned a definition of parables and I was just saying to be honest

02:37:20

I if I had ever learned that there the definition of a parable was that there was no named individuals I have long forgotten that and I was just going from my own observation

02:37:28

Just when you look at the scriptures, I find it unique that in God's perfect word

02:37:35

That there are I think somewhere between 40 and 50 parables or like Elements in there that there would be only one like the odds of that are

02:37:47

We know it's not coincidental we know it's not accidental we don't you know, we know that this is purposeful So that's why for me

02:37:53

The odds that God would say no, this is gonna be the only one that falls into this very unique category

02:37:59

I'm sitting back going well Why and I think potentially the answer to the to the answer to the question why is the fact that it's not parabolic?

02:38:07

It's actually he was he's illustrating a point He's teaching something right and there might anyone could argue that there is figurative language

02:38:15

Obviously, there's figurative language used Abraham's wasn't me perfect example of that But still it doesn't mean that it all has to be from a fictional perspective as most parables are assumed to be another thing that could be brought up in this is that Just because it's a parable.

02:38:34

It doesn't mean that the people used or even the places used Are not real places or real people

02:38:43

Like that that is that in itself is kind of reading into what a parable is

02:38:50

You can use real people in real places isn't it parabolically as well and so It kind of swings both ways in a sense and and you know for the people who make the argument

02:39:05

Well, if you say it's a parable, are you saying you don't believe hell is real? I That's not the only verse in the

02:39:11

Bible that talks about heaven and hell So I don't need Luke 15 to make

02:39:18

The argument of heaven or hell 16. Sorry 16 to make the argument for heaven or hell

02:39:25

Right if that's the if that's the only verse you have for your argument then I'd be concerned right

02:39:32

But we have plenty others and so I the the illustration is still the main point of what he's trying to illustrate is

02:39:40

Hey, you know, you got the Bible People if people aren't gonna believe the the

02:39:46

Word of God, they're not gonna believe if someone like Jesus comes back from the dead And that was then only half the

02:39:54

Bible the old two -thirds of it yeah, then you started seeing something earlier I don't know

02:40:01

I was just gonna say I take the position that it's parabolic as well But I think it's it's special as a parable because like you said

02:40:08

I know there's some debate amongst modern scholarship as to whether it's a parable or an actual story since he names names in that parable, but I think it's it's

02:40:19

Parabolic, but I think it refers to there's spiritual truths behind it referring to like has Adam said it can refer to real people or real places that that exist and Like I can't say one way or the other whether Lazarus actually lived as was named in their parable, but I think it does that there's spiritual realities and spiritual truths that give insight into the afterlife and like Andrew said ultimately it points us to the

02:40:49

Bible as Our source of salvific knowledge and not the need for dead people to come back and give us that information

02:40:57

So that's why I use that as an argument against what Matthew was arguing for it's a head -scratcher passage, that's for sure

02:41:11

Well, I think this was a good show tonight,

02:41:17

I think it was a good debate I think Helpful for many. I hope let us know if you found it helpful if you want more debates like this

02:41:25

Let us know I think I think I'll you know, these are good to do once in a while You know, it is a different style of learning so We will try to do more like these

02:41:40

Hey, there's a civil civically minded podcast there Mr.

02:41:46

Wing well done Andrew. Very good I just actually wanted to put that up so I can promote his podcast

02:41:52

And I'm gonna leave it up to this you spot the way it's spelled I just ended is a

02:41:58

SIV ECC ly So I just want to come out there.

02:42:06

Did no one else ever patch you on the back? Well, yes, thank you

02:42:11

Andrew see So real quick Gail, I think that's how you say their name

02:42:17

Tino Says seems like Matthew is on a dangerous slippery slope of new age

02:42:23

Slash new thought I just want to say on Matthew's behalf He openly rejects and refutes

02:42:32

New age beliefs and that's a large part of what he does and I appreciate that you put in there slippery slope because that is a logical fallacy

02:42:43

Slippery slope argument and so just be careful Because he is a brother.

02:42:49

He does believe in the scriptures he he believes in the true gospel and He openly speaks out against new age beliefs