Happy Lies: What is the New Thought Movement and why is it so dangerous? - Podcast Episode 242

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00:00

Welcome to the got questions podcast today. We've got a returning guest. I think she's been on two or three times before Melissa Doherty, she is the author of several books, but their most recent one happy lies

00:13

How a movement you probably never heard of shaped our self -obsessed world.

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I Was first presented with the opportunity of doing this interview. I was like, well, what is this book about discovered?

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It was about the new thought movement I'm like, I know I've heard of that But if you were to ask me off the top of my head to tell you anything about it

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I don't know that I could so fascinated to both of them have an opportunity to read the book and interview

00:43

Melissa So Melissa, thank you for joining me. Yeah, thanks for having me on and I should fact -check you

00:50

I have actually never written a book before and I think I've only been on once or twice before with Jehovah's Witnesses I think that's that was the topic before but yeah, this is my first book.

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Okay. Well Congratulations, so thank you. Yeah. I'm yes. I think I interviewed you about the

01:05

New Age movement one time Yeah, so yeah good this is gonna be a fun conversation and so Help me out here.

01:17

Um, what is the new thought movement and why is it both influential and yet?

01:25

Not very well known. Yeah, I always say that For those who might be listening and they're like,

01:31

I don't know what that is You do know what this is and you don't know what this is Clear as mud

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But it's it's not a religion it's a movement and If I have always said

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I'm an ex New Ager, but that's actually not entirely true I'm actually an ex

01:50

New Thoughter and What I mean by that is that when I in your last podcast we talked about one of them we talked about Jehovah's Witnesses and how

02:00

I even got into that and in speaking with them and doing ministry with them and because they played an integral part in me researching my own beliefs and Coming out of what

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I thought was New Age But I immediately started realizing Well, I was never into yoga.

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I was never into Reiki sacred geometry Angel cards or any of this other stuff this looked different.

02:27

I Thought I was into things that were Christian like this. They claim to be

02:33

Christian used scriptural Bible verses and Talked about Jesus.

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It just seemed a lot more evolved version of Christianity And so it took me a long time to kind of weed that out and discover that yes

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These are indeed two very different movements. They meet in the middle with a lot of things but they are they are separate and When it comes to the

03:02

New Thought movement to define it in a word, I would say it's metaphysical more precisely metaphysical

03:10

Christianity and my philosopher friends they kind of get a twitch in their eye when I say that because they think of it in a

03:17

Philosophical sense where like I go to Southern Evangelical Seminary and they would always talk about your metaphysics of God and That basically in classical theism just means oh, what are the attributes of God and why is he that way and Who is he?

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It's a very beautiful Study when I say metaphysical that's not what I mean.

03:39

What I mean is that Metaphysical Christianity is a higher more evolved more tolerance more spiritual version of Christianity It's not as literal.

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It's more allegorical. It's it's beyond the physical, right? And so this is why there's a more spiritual.

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It seemed of super spiritual It seemed like Christianity on steroids to me a better.

04:08

It was more powerful. And so That's kind of the simple way I'll put it but in a sentence

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I would say that New Thought is the positive thinking movement in America with Jesus as its mascot

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What fundamentally sets New Thought apart from New Age is that New Thought claims to be

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Christian and looks Christian New Age does not New Age is grounded more in You know like Eastern mysticism like Hinduism and Buddhism Whereas New Thought is more

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Gnostic in origin They they do claim Christian origins and they claim to be the the correct way of viewing

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Jesus in the Bible But I wouldn't say that they're inherently Gnostic. That's just how

04:57

I would say how it originated as far as origins go and So when it comes to the practical

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Beliefs of New Thought this is why I say that Christians. They're like, oh, I've never heard of New Thought No, you probably haven't heard that term, but you most definitely have seen the teachings in society and in the church and one of the thesis statements that I make in the book is that Because of that because it's designed to look like Christianity It will deceive you before the

05:33

New Age ever will like it's not the it's not the red dude with the pitchfork in the pointy

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It comes looking like Jesus sitting right next to you, maybe even in your own belief system without you realizing it and so That's the basic way that I would define the differences and maybe we can get into more practical

05:54

Things that New Thought teaches later. I would love to dive right into that because when we

06:01

Start discussing this movement. You say that people have been exposed to it. There's never I've heard it by that name so what are some of the key things that a person should be maybe listening for when they hear someone teaching or ministering or leading that would okay, this person is starting to advocate

06:19

New Thought principles rather than Biblical or truly Christian principles. Mm -hmm.

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Let me do it. Let me explain a little bit how New Thought would redefine terminology because here's the thing.

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I mean last time we talked about Jehovah's Witnesses. I mean you got Mormons Sandra Tanner who is

06:37

She's a former Mormon Former LDS and she said once that if you

06:43

Christian find yourself agreeing with a Mormon That means that somebody hasn't defined their terms

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Because they're gonna use the same words. It just has a difference meaning Exactly the same thing in New Thought.

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It's the same exact terminology same words So prayer to them means something different the atonement born -again love and so you're gonna hear all these things even

07:08

Christ Okay, which actually is gonna be my first official term to define here. People have heard the term

07:14

Christ consciousness All right. A lot of people think that is New Age, but it's not that is actually a

07:21

New Thought concept what the Christ consciousness is is In New Thought you separate

07:28

Jesus the man Who's a human just like you and me? with Christ Remember, it's metaphysical

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Christianity. That's why I defined this everything has a higher spiritual meaning therefore

07:42

Christ When we hear that we think anointed one Messiah Old Testament Prophecy happening.

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Yeah, that's not what that means in New Thought Christ is separate and something that Jesus obtained

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He became conscious of and So can you? Christ is the inner dormant divinity within all of humanity all of us have the

08:10

Christ within So if you Christian go up to somebody with these beliefs

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Maybe they have the Christ consciousness belief and you say yeah, the Bible says Christ is in me They would say amen to that and you don't know any better.

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You're thinking. Yeah, man. We're on the same page We're quoting the same scriptures and we believe the same thing, but their meaning is fundamentally very different And so some

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Christians might just kind of like what hold on what you're saying is biblical, but it's also not what's happening here so the

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Christ consciousness is a New Thought term and The other term going off of this are

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I am affirmations capital I capital AM and This is a big one this one probably stumps a lot of Christians because affirmations as The term is meant to be like you're affirming, right?

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originated with New Thought there was a founder of Center for spiritual living or religious science

09:12

His name was Ernest Holmes and I go over him and who he is a little bit in chapter 2

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When I give the history of New Thought Ernest Holmes a New Thought leader is who we can thank for affirmations becoming and a cultural and explosion in in the culture and He influenced a woman named

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Louise Hey who some people may recognize other people are like, who's that Louise?

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Hey is one of the people that the other person we can thank for the popularity of affirmations as she is she became very popular wrote a lot of books about these and Founded the number one

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New Age publisher in the world. Hey house And so we have all these connections here, but to define affirmations

10:06

This is important with a Christian. We say that we pray to God We scripture says you bring your requests to him.

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He's a separate being from you that you are petitioning to Okay, that's usually

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Christian prayer New Thought prayer is Technically there it's affirmations.

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So it's affirmative prayer You don't ask you you you say it as if you already had it because It's it's guaranteed that it's your birthright as a child of God and New Thought Being made in the image of God equals a child of God The Bible doesn't say that you have to become a child of God.

10:49

So their viewpoint of this is important if you're divine Who are you praying to?

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the most honest answer Anybody and New Thought could give at least in the beliefs even if they don't know what's called

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New Thought is that you're praying from within It's it's from within that you are able to manifest these things.

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Okay, and so I am affirmations are declaration their declarative prayers

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Which leads me into another? It's more of a movement that's been affected by New Thought which is the word of faith movement.

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Okay word faith movement they've given themselves this name because the words that you speak create your reality and I remember after leaving what

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I thought was New Age what's going on in the church though? there's churches out here that are like doing what I think is the law of attraction and If let me define that real briefly the law of attraction and that is a

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New Thought term people again think that that's a New Age and there's some overlap, but that Fundamentally originated with New Thought Because it's the power of your mind your mind

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Can create your reality based on what you think and what you speak Okay, and they use scripture to do it now divorce that from what we see in the church and you isolate that That's pretty fishy.

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Like why are they why are there so many? Similarities between what New Thought is saying here and the prosperity gospel what's happening?

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And that's not a coincidence There that is not just some sort of random correlation So whenever you're there did they both take the same scriptures they take the same formulaic ways to produce an

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Outcome that you're trying to basically Think that you are entitled to it's your birthright to be healthy and wealthy that originated with New Thought and It's not just inherently

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New Thought though the word faith movement if you were to take the mind cure movement of the 1800s

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Pentecostalism and New Thought and you mix them together if they were to have a baby it would be the word faith movement

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So people that say oh, it's just New Thought. It's not There are there are some

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Orthodox things and the word faith movement that we can't deny and it would be foolish to deny

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You know, so but there I trace that lineage back to New Thought and the word faith movement.

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That's another way It's really in the church And then the other thing is

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I mean you have the I am statements you have declarations you have affirmations You have Christ consciousness. The other thing is the this might be more of a progressive view

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I have a whole chapter on the connections between New Thought and progressive Christianity because that one blew my mind, too but the true self versus the false self, so you have the true authentic self, which is

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Really who you are inside. It's divine. All right, and that's what they would consider your true

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Authentic self that's where you get wisdom from it's from within so if you're you're wanting to know what to do with a decision while you you pray and Then you wait for some sort of leading that looks a lot like your feelings

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Which is no Coincidence because feelings are looked at and your emotions are looked at Almost as if it's the

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Holy Spirit guiding you into your decision making Okay, so if you don't feel good about a certain thing, well that that must be your authentic self inside guiding you

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Whereas your false self is where all this negative stuff comes from Remember, it's the positive thinking movement.

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So if there's any negativity, it's looked at as Coming from this false self.

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So think about that for a second whenever something happens That maybe isn't in line with what you're believing

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You can't critically think about that because that's considered negative thinking So it goes back to this positive thinking movement.

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That's really a lot of toxic positivity But that that involves you

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Turning off your your critical thinking capabilities to even believe it So these are very basic definitions a very basic understanding of what new thought is

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There's so much more to know as you were describing it each of the major points is like yeah, I see

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Hints of that in in this Christian movement or if I have experienced someone in the church saying something along those lines

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But especially like the connection with the word faith the prosperity gospel

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And yeah multiple times. I mean I have family members who were involved in that movement and I remember

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Them praying to constructing me. No say you don't pray. You don't ask for things you Claim things you claim that you already have them and then

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I remember one time praying Lord if it's your will Yeah, and asking and they're like like what are you doing?

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Don't that's a faith destroying Prayer you're supposed to claim that as your right from God rather than asking for and I'm like well

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The Bible doesn't say that's our right from God. So therefore I'm asking in Jesus prayed not my will but yours be done and Instructed us to if we ask anything according to his will so I don't

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I've just experienced this again and again. It's interesting to see what some of that It comes from because you really study scriptures it does not teach the word faith movement

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So where did the origin originators whether it's Kenyan Hagan Coleman the really early

16:39

Prosperity gospel preachers, where did they actually get these ideas because they definitely didn't get them from I'm studying the

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Bible Yeah, a hundred percent. I'm so glad you asked this this was a big

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Help for me to understand the origins of this because when you see it just like that You're like something's wrong here.

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Where are you getting this from? It's not in the Bible and your teachers teach it That's really where it comes from is the the leaders and then who are they who's influencing them?

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Where did they get it right and so there's there is a breadcrumb trail Okay, so you have

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Kenneth Hagan. All right, and he's looked at as The father of the word -faith movement, but there is another character

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Who's a lot more obscure in the history of the word -faith movement and his name is

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Kenneth not Kenneth Ken EW Kenyon is his name now a lot of people don't

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Really? They think that EW Kenyon was some sort of charismatic Pentecostal. He was not he was a

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Baptist but he was very popular in a lot of Pentecostal charismatic circles, this is the 1800s.

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Okay, it's like you're you're talking about you know an era that was a long time ago, but it kind of wasn't and What Kenyon did is he went to this college it was a metaphysical college called

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Emerson University Emma's Emerson College and There on the curriculum metaphysical beliefs and Metaphysical Christianity new thought beliefs dominated the curriculum all right, and and in the in the chapter, it's there's an argument that Ralph Waldo Trine is

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Well known as a New Thoughts leader a well -known New Thought leader and he was a professor at Emerson College and One historian in particular that I I was reading his stuff.

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I wrote a few of them Christians who have really delved into the word faith movement is

18:51

That he said it's almost certain that Emerson studied under Trine and there's no doubt

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That he read metaphysical books like New Thought books with eagerness

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That's not what Kenyon did Kenyon went through them and said hmm. What can

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I use here? That could be used as an authentic version for Christianity How do

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I make a better version of this a Christian version of this and that's exactly what he did

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So he took these and he I'm looking at his books over here. Um, the ones that I read about These concepts like metaphysical concepts in essence and taking them and using them for the church and so He wrote a lot he's preaching a lot he goes out and he's very popular again with Pentecostal charismatic groups

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But he never would have said he was a Pentecostal or charismatic. He always remained like a Baptist preacher

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So what ended up happening? Is that you have? Hagen Kenneth Hagen who gets a

19:59

Hold of his books. Okay, and it's it's well documented that Kenneth Hagen Plagiarized Kenyon, he used his teachings and his sayings and his books and his own books and his own sayings and It's just very clear that it's it's like a straight line in that regard and you have to ask yourself a question

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Okay in the sake of steel manning the position that he's not the common denominator

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Then what was I Had to ask myself this I'm like, okay, so why are there so many similarities if it's not

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Kenyon? It's not Hagen Where did Hagen get it from? so these are the questions we have to wrestle with like if you're in a

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Word of Faith Church or Maybe you you really respect a lot of Word of Faith preachers. This is something we have to ask about the origins because Kenyon's beliefs

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Came from somewhere. He wasn't just in a vacuum somewhere reading his Bible doing his job

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No, he drew these from somewhere and you can historically see in his own writings why he wanted to Christianize them

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How can we take this very? pragmatic belief system these metaphysical beliefs that are getting a lot of results for these people in health and wealth and That originated with new thought the prosperity gospel

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These health and wealth teachings that you are a human being who's divine who's entitled to health and wealth

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Originated with new thought and he's looking at that thinking, huh? How do we

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Christianize this? How do we take this and use this for the church? So his intentions weren't like evil

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I think that he was trying to to look at something that was yielding results and thinking how are they doing that?

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I want that for us. I Want that for for the Christian body, right and so I think that his intentions weren't like something of a you know, a wolf or Anything like that.

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I don't think he was trying to do that. But I think that his hunger for power I think his hunger for results.

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I think blinded maybe the question that should have been asked. Does this honor God? Is this biblical, you know?

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And so I think that that is really the basis in which the foundational way that the Word of Faith teaching

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Movement came to be what it is and why so many people are seeing those correlations when

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I Hear you teaching on this. I mean obviously having a background in the Word of Faith movement That's what stands out

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But I love what you said at the beginning the fact that the new thought movement is ultimately it's Gnostic and yes many movements

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Are like yeah, so Traditional Christianity, it's it's okay But what you really need to discover is what's the what are the spiritual truths?

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behind or underneath what what the traditional yes, Jesus is the

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Messiah who died for our sins, but he's also the Christ and we can also be so seeing how

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Infiltrates the church and Christianity in different ways that we're completely ignorant of I've witnessed this and the type of questions we received like where are people getting these ideas and Not from the

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Bible possibly from other teachers, but what What are they hearing outside of the church?

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That's they're trying to make Compatible with Christians like that. It's a good idea or even you described a couple times for some people

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It really really works and therefore how do I? Christianize that so maybe my last big question for you is why does it seem to work?

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Why does the new thought movement's emphasis on Self -actualization or positive thinking those sort of things which

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Why does it seem to work This is a huge thing

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Okay, there's I actually Tackle this in the book as well In this regard because this was a big

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Hang -up for me and this is a big hang -up for a lot of people because like what do you do when?

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you're Changing your thinking and you have can't stage for cancer and you're told hey your thoughts have vibrations and frequencies

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That can change That negative frequency in your body. It's about the power of your mind.

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So if you change your mind You will change your body and it works you go to the doctor and he's like I don't understand it.

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You're you're supposed to get chemo and there's It's gone. And I'm actually there's a book right here this book.

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It's a new thought book I'd hold it up, but my tea is on top of it. Um It's all

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I've read so many new thought books that just most people don't know are out there. All this book is our

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Testimonies about people that have done new thought techniques positive thinking manifestation visualization techniques and Have been healed like radical stories like these as Christians.

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We hear the same thing so what do you do when this person's quoting scripture and this person's quoting scripture and They're both doing the same thing and they both get results.

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Well, doesn't that mean that both are true? Not so fast Here's my argument.

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Okay There's a few things to go off on here number one a lot of the origins of These beliefs whether it's new thought new age, whatever begins with The occult

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All right. So a lot of let me give me an example a lot of the things that we talked about with Health and wealth and prosperity.

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Well, what do you do when you do these things and they work? Okay, and we're talking about speaking believing

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Well, I kind of geek out in the second chapter and I talk about the history of new thought and there's one man

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His name is Emanuel Swedenborg. A lot of people don't even know that name. Some people are like, oh,

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I know exactly who that is He is a big player in the origins of new thought along with a few other people like Phineas Quimby Wernfeldt Evans, there's a few other people but he is

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Pretty pivotal because he was not just some schmo out there. He was an inventor

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He was very smart. He was a I think he was a minister

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He was just all around brilliant. Okay, he had a religious crisis a

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Spiritual crisis and when this happened it was because he was getting

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Spiritual contact from other beings that he called angels and these angels would give him knowledge spiritual knowledge on How to affect the spiritual world

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What heaven and hell were like and so he people know him mostly for his writings on These on contact with his angels and there's one teaching that came from him called the law of correspondence which basically says

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That for everything in the physical world. There is a spiritual counterpart literally everything

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You me my camera You know my phone everything books including your body and your words

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So if something's wrong with your body You don't fix it in the physical realm.

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You fix it in the spiritual realm How do you do that through your thoughts and your words?

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Okay, so the idea is is that okay if that can be done

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Well, then let's go and do this a cultic practice in order to yield that result

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Here's my point God tells us to stay away from the occult not because it doesn't work

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But because it does and That it can deceive you. That's the idea people aren't attracted to a cultic teachings because it doesn't work

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That's the problem. That's the point That that's not the argument to make though The the argument is okay.

28:44

Well, what's that source? Is that even true? Is that actually a good thing to do?

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I mean every ex new ager will tell you I would I would guess that a lot of them would agree with me in this regard that They were actually talking to spirits

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They were actually getting information from this spirit about this person And so that's my first point is that a cultic things

29:09

Work, that's that's a given the second thing. I'll say

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So we talked about the law of attraction, right and it's Matthew 7 7 It's the formula for the law of attraction.

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They quote scripture. They say this is what Jesus really taught. I'm using this as an example Because they quote scripture a lot.

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They say it's scriptural. This is a higher way of thinking. You're not you're not awakened Right only only only in this awakened state.

29:39

Can you even understand the Bible which is why by the way we see a hierarchy of some Christians in the church where they think that the more experiences you have the more spiritual knowledge you have the more spiritual wisdom you have and so that's that's a danger to look out for but my point is is

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That a lot of scripture is thrown around in this to kind of back it up and say oh no This is what the

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Bible teaches But when you're quoting a scripture like Matthew 7 7 that says ask in my name

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Believe it and you will receive it what I don't hear Is the rest of Matthew 7 because later on in that chapter?

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Jesus concedes. Yes Yeah, there's gonna be miracles signs wonders healings.

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There's gonna be a lot of stuff done in my name be gone. I never knew you Like what they should fear that they should fear that that that G they think that they're doing what

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Jesus taught They think that they are Because it works because they're getting the results

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That they are doing this in Jesus's name So, I mean there there should be I never see

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Jesus warn about not Getting your healing. I never see

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Jesus warn about Not any sort of spiritual experiences at all.

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He's like, oh beware of the people that aren't having spiritual experiences Beware of those that have never

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Had their healing No, he's saying beware of those that have it but it's false like it's the third thing

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I'll say is that sometimes I've talked about it being this one's really important.

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Okay, I've talked about it being the positive thinking movement in America critical thinking is sometimes seen as Negative thinking because if you're questioning what you're going through what you're hearing and you're trying to think critically about it

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Well that then you're doubting oh, no, no, no, you can't do that No, you can't you're not gonna receive your blessing.

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You have to have faith you gotta have faith, which means no doubting because it's in the

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Bible or something and That's how we that's how we're going to get this healing. This is how we're gonna get this or that So, what does it do?

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It stops you from thinking. All right, and here's what happens when something good happens.

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Oh It's from the Lord Amen, we are we are getting our blessing we are getting It works

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Okay, it has it obviously it works and let this be a testimony to it working because look at this

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Outcome that we're having right now But when you're not allowed to ask Critical questions and when you're not allowed to critically think because it's negative thinking and it's a lack of faith or whatever it is

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You don't see the other stuff that doesn't work Because if it's up to your mind and if it's in your mind that these things are created co -creator with God then

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You're not seeing when it doesn't work. So in other words, it's confirmation bias So these are only three things that I talk about in the book

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I talk a lot more about it in the book, but those are three things to consider when we are talking about these

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Beliefs and beyond and these practices and beyond working. I love

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Tracing the dots. I love filling in the blanks of It's eye -opening to see how many connections there are between the word faith movement and new thought

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And that's just one chapter. There's a boy. Yeah one chapter. I'm sure there's so much more But that's what that's why you wrote the book. That's why

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I'm really looking forward to having a full access to it so I can continue to Learn about some of the backgrounds of some of the stuff that I'm observing some of the questions we received so with the little time we have left and Melissa, what's um,

33:31

I Who's the book for like if you you can't just say I want everyone to read the book

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But especially who do you think we would find this book? Particularly helpful.

33:44

Yeah, this is a great question. I when I was writing it Had two audiences in mind the first are

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Maybe the sixteen -year -old version of myself right, like I wish that it was the Book that somebody had handed me when

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I first became a Christian because I'm like, oh Okay, there are thoughtful Christians out there that want to ask these questions that have dealt with this and because that was a major problem

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For me, which again I talked about more in the book the secondary audience Or a second audience are those that may

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Need to be convinced right maybe maybe the ones that are Believing in a few new thought things that might be having a hard time letting go

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Because once you see it, you can't unsee it and I want them to see it.

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This book is written to inform and What they choose to do with that is is something different, but I want them to kind of lean into it

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I want them to see it in hopes that they know that there's something better That if they really thought about what they're believing and doing and they know what it is and they're like, oh, okay

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I see this isn't from the Bible. I can see how it sounds biblical, but it's not from the Bible. I Want them to see why?

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It's not better for them why this isn't something that they should pursue even if they've gotten results and That there's a beauty in letting go of your affirmations or letting go of your prosperity teachings and That there's a piece there that I want them to find in it, right?

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And so it's it's for Christians that fit into these categories and I even say there's a third audience

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I kind of want people that don't agree with me to read this that might be secular into new thought teachings

35:41

I think of people maybe don't know these teachers, but like Michael Beckwith He's one of the foremost one of the most popular

35:49

New thought leaders. He was on Oprah and he teaches a lot about You know the power of the mind a lot of these new thought teachings and I think

35:58

I wonder what would happen if somebody like him Read it because again, they claim these are

36:04

Christian in origin and I read their material I didn't go to there were no

36:09

Christian sources almost no Christian sources on the new thought movement So I had to go to the source material

36:17

To write this book. I went to the new thought books. I went to the new thought leaders. I watched new thought documentaries

36:23

I went into The the the new thought centers and did boots on the ground face -to -face interviews with the people that had these beliefs

36:32

I did my best to do my due diligence to bring What this belief is and Contrast it with Christianity.

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So my hope is is that maybe somebody like that picks up the book and thinks oh These aren't the same thing.

36:46

Okay. I see what she's saying. Maybe they really don't agree with me, but It's up to God.

36:52

It's God's job to grow that seed in in that way, so I just hope that I wrote it in such a way that somebody like that could pick it up and Have a aha moment

37:03

That God can use I've already had a few of those and I can already think of a few people

37:10

I'd really I'd love to give this book to Both who I think would be fascinated discovering some of the true origins of some of these things but also some people who are still kind of trapped in the word faith prosperity gospel type of movement who like they

37:25

They know that's not directly from the Bible, but they still think it's from God. Yeah, so to Show them no, this is actually where it came from.

37:34

It could be very eye -opening. So Melissa, thank you for all the research and writing and redos and everything that went into writing this book and you said that you don't feel qualified but There's a saying out there that God doesn't call the qualified but God qualifies the cult

37:50

And so I'm firmly believe that God called you to write this book based on your experience

37:55

But also more so your love of God's Word and desire to speak the truth and love so Keep doing what you're doing and Melissa.

38:02

Thank you for joining me today. Yeah. Thanks for having me Shay It's always a pleasure It's been got questions podcast with Melissa Doherty author of happy lies how a movement you probably never heard of shaped our self -obsessed world