October 24, 2016 Show with Larry Hale on “From Pushing Death to Preaching Life: Testimony of a Drug Dealer Turned Pastor”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania it's iron sharpens iron a radio

platform on which pastors Christian scholars and theologians Address the burning issues

facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron so one

man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage quote we are cautioned to take heed whom we

converse with and Directed to have in view in conversation to make one another

wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour.

And we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions.

Now here's our host Chris.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania.

And the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming.

This is Chris Arns and your host of iron sharpens iron wishing you all a happy Monday on

this 24th day of October 2016.

I'm delighted to have someone in the studio for the very first time today Pastor

Larry Hale,.

I met pastor Hale perhaps over a year ago When I had my

first annual iron sharpens iron pastors luncheon In Carlisle, it's

not the first one that I've had ever as.

Those of you who remember my old show broadcasting from New York may remember I had quite a number

of those annual Pastors luncheons, which was actually the brainchild of my late

wife going back to the.

Early.

2000s perhaps perhaps even in the late 1990s is when I first began the pastors

luncheons and after relocating to Carlisle, Pennsylvania, I launched my first one

about a year ago and pastor Larry Hale was in attendance and we struck

up a acquaintance, which I'm Counting on becoming a strong friendship.

He was very graciously he very graciously invited me to speak at a

Church of God retreat in Newville, Pennsylvania and I found out about his fascinating

testimony Which we are going to be discussing today.

From pushing death to preaching life the testimony of a drug dealer turned pastor and It's

my honor and privilege to welcome you into the studio for the very first time pastor Larry Hale of the

Glenville Church of God in Marysville, Pennsylvania.

Well, thank you Chris.

I appreciate you.

Inviting me to be here today and.

Before I even get into your own background which will be actually the main subject of our program

today I'd like for you to tell our listeners something about not only the Church of God

Denomination that you're in because there are a number of them with that name.

But also the Glenvale Church of God specifically in Marysville, Pennsylvania.

The Churches of God General Conference is based out of Findlay, Ohio with several hundred

churches across the nation and throughout some of the mission

fields in the.

1040 window.

There are only several hundred because they must all be in this area because I see I see a lot of Church of God

congregations in this area.

Well, they started in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, okay in the 1800s with John Weinbrenner.

Mm -hmm.

And John Weinbrenner had been a Dutch Reformed pastor and Had been forced out of the pastorate

because of his beliefs in the fact that one had to receive The

gift of eternal life through Jesus Christ.

And He started preaching then along the banks of the river in Harrisburg.

What denomination what denomination drove him out for teaching that it was the Dutch Reformed.

Okay, that's interesting.

Mm -hmm.

I guess maybe you're using terminology that I'm Defining in a different way and wondering

why the Dutch Reformed would have driven him out for that.

Well, here's what happened.

He started hanging out with the Methodists.

Mm -hmm.

And of course in those days they were known as a shouting Methodists and They were a little radical.

As a matter of fact, they had they had anxious benches in his churches after he

developed or after he began to Get inside again and get into some of the

Bethel's in the area.

They actually had anxious benches where we would just wait for the opportunity to fall on their knees before

the Lord and and receive his mercy and grace and.

So basically from the the descriptions I've also received from other Church of God

pastors is that it is very much like a Wesleyan Baptist denomination

in many respects.

Very similar, right.

And.

So tell us our listeners something specifically about the Glenvale Church of God in Marysville.

The Glenvale Church of God.

Originated back in the mid 1800s with some circuit riders

they eventually established a church in our area actually in the location that we're in now and

it grew and We had a little white Building down along the road and then the church

was in there and they prospered for many years.

A lot of people got saved there now the well and I ended up there just about 11 years ago.

The church had gone through some turmoil they were a congregation of about 80 people and

The Lord led us there, even though I've got to say we really had no desire to pastor a church.

We were on the road as evangelists and loved what we were doing literally saw thousands of people come to Christ over the

years that we were on the road and Had no desire whatsoever To pastor a church,

but God called us there.

He he made the calling So distinct that we knew

beyond a shadow of a doubt that that's where we needed to be and then he put everything into place to the most minute

detail as far as providing for us providing a way for us to

Transition into that ministry.

And again, we've been there almost 11 years and tell us about the beautiful.

Campground where I spoke at your invitation on The actual biblical texts

for iron sharpens iron.

It was very nice to be speaking to a a group at a retreat for those 50 and older and

I'm not even going to attempt to pronounce the name of the camp and but I know it's based on an

acronym.

Yes, right, and if you could tell us about that it is camp.

Eulogia youth living Jesus way also known as Dublin Gap Center.

Dublin Gap Center not only serves the Eastern Regional Conference of the Churches of God But it

also serves a lot of other denominations and even has secular groups coming for

events up there for retreats.

Great great campground.

We had a couple of thousand children there over the summer for camp eulogia and

We just see a lot of children get saved there.

Amazing wonderful.

Marvelous ministry and it is really a beautiful place if anybody listening wants

to have a retreat or a conference of some kind in the Cumberland

County area.

New Ville is not far from where I'm sitting.

It's about a half hour away and it's a really breathtaking area in a very wooded rural

area and.

Perhaps if anybody of you would like to contact Pastor Larry Hill you

could go to his website Glenvale COG which stands for Glenvale Church of God dot -com

and you can ask him about that later.

Glenvale.

GLENVALE COG dot -com.

Well now I want to get more More of your background before we

even get into.

So something that we've already gave away to our listeners the fact that this is

about The testimony of a drug dealer turned pastor, which is you.

But if you could tell us something about your childhood the religious atmosphere if any of your childhood

your upbringing and how you came to unfortunately Dabble and then

eventually be earning a earned a living as somebody who is stealing drugs.

Well, I grew up in a Christian environment.

Mm -hmm.

My parents were both Christians and my father was blind and To earn money to

support the family.

He actually played drums in a band.

Mm -hmm.

Was he blind from birth?

Yeah, no, he was blinded at the age of six while playing with some homemade fireworks.

Wow, and Yeah, he was blind when I came into the world.

Hmm, and Actually, that's something I prayed for for many many years even during those years when I

had strayed from my beliefs and Was so involved in drugs and of course dealing drugs

and you know, God eventually answered that prayer.

There became technology available that allowed his corneas to be transplanted and

When he was around 50 years old, he was able to for the first time in his life.

Drive a car which was a goal for Wow.

So he is a sighted person.

He was a sighted person from that time on.

Yes. Wow. Praise God for that.

And was your mom sighted or was she also a blind person?

My mother was sighted.

She was the major breadwinner for the household.

When I was young she was a waitress and then she eventually went to work for the state of, Pennsylvania.

So, uh, what were the The things going on in your life that made you say, you

know, this Christian life is not really What I really want to

experience right now.

And you begin to drift away.

You know, I've got to say I never had that defining moment.

Mm -hmm all of my life as Far back as I can remember.

I had a desire to be a rock star as I would listen on the radio or watch on television and see these

musicians.

And having my father as a musician, I.

Desired to be a drummer like him.

I still want to be a rock star.

Even though I don't play any musical instrument.

I'm just kidding.

But.

Oddly enough my father would not allow me to play the drums.

He said it was too much equipment to carry.

Well, I had nothing but drums and there was an old Reed organ in the house

one of the old pump organs and the bellows were out of it.

So I being the ingenious fellow I am Cut some slats to put

there to seal that area where the air flows.

With just a hole in the middle big enough for a vacuum cleaner.

Hmm, and I was able to put the vacuum cleaner in there and there was enough

Volume created enough air volume created that I can actually sit and play with that little organ.

And.

Then when I was about 13 years old, my mom and dad surprised me with a con caprice

Organ, hmm and started lessons in those days.

And.

So what.

Where were you when you actually reached a place where?

You were dabbling in the dark side where you I mean not all.

Those involved in drug dealing actually take those drugs, but perhaps you did.

I'm not sure what was the specific.

Incident in your life.

Well years down the road.

I Was playing in Johnstown, Pennsylvania.

And I don't recall why but I was extremely tired at the time that we were to go on stage

and So one of the fellows in the band said to me listen, I've got this little pill.

It's an over -the -counter drug, but it'll give you the energy to get through the night and I took

one of those little over -the -counter pills and ended up staying up all night long.

Well the next time I felt that I was a little tired.

I took another one eventually.

Believe it or not that led to other drugs.

Hmm, and so.

What.

How did that escalate with.

Were you?

Take taking cocaine or what were the specific drugs.

If you don't mind ask telling our listeners about that.

Well, I cocaine was my drug of choice, but before even

Before I even got involved with cocaine.

We did a lot of marijuana a lot of alcohol and I think I

probably was doing both of those things when somebody introduced me to cocaine and Again

cocaine became the drug of my choice.

I just was constantly craving that high from the cocaine and.

When did you have this thought occur to you that hey, I can make a good living selling this

stuff.

Well, I had a brother -in -law at that time who was a cocaine dealer hmm,

and I was doing so much cocaine that I needed some way to produce a

revenue to buy more cocaine and.

I.

Went to him and he said no, I will not do that.

I will not allow you to do that.

So I went around him.

I went to one of the fellows that was buying drugs from him that was selling and got my drugs from his friend.

So he had enough he had enough of a Godly

conscience if you will or a Compassion for you or a concern for your

life that he realized I do not want.

The do you say this was your uncle Brother -in -law brother -in -law.

Yeah, I don't want my brother -in -law to Be involved in the same kind of dangerous and perhaps wicked

lifestyle.

Well, he had already been to prison a couple of times and.

By the time I got busted.

The government of the United States was after him for millions of dollars in back taxes.

Hmm, and he eventually went to a federal prison.

I Did not and that's a story in itself.

And.

So when you started.

You know stealing drugs that it's like start as a very very small thing that escalated into something

very large.

Well as far as the cocaine went.

Since my brother -in -law was a cocaine dealer and there was always a lot of cocaine around.

It didn't start as something small because I had plenty of it available to me.

Hmm, but then when we got to partying with friends and had other groups come in and we partied with them.

We just needed more and so it got to the point where I just couldn't get enough from him.

And so this really started fairly large and just continued to escalate.

Yes.

I mean, could you tell us approximately how much you were making doing this?

Well You know to be honest.

I didn't make a lot of money.

However, I remember one time having fifty thousand dollars in cash in the house and I

was so paranoid that I was going to get busted that I hit it in the bottom of my garbage can and.

Just it was a constant fight with myself because first of all, I knew I shouldn't have been doing what I was doing.

Secondly, I enjoyed it so much.

But thirdly there was paranoia there and I the paranoia didn't come from the drug.

The paranoia came from the fact that I knew that I shouldn't be doing what I was doing and eventually I would end up paying.

The price for it now other than the money.

What were you enjoying about it?

You actually enjoy the Taking the risks and everything that might be involved in that

kind of a lifestyle.

Well, I must say there was.

Certainly a sense of I don't know what terminology to use

here that there was a sense of euphoria like Adrenaline rush and a general and Ross.

Yes there was that constant.

Sense of trying to be smarter than than those who were would be after me if they found out that I was

dealing drugs.

There.

There was a game involved there, too.

Yeah, no doubt about it.

And.

Was.

We did you consider yourself a Christian at this point?

Were you were you?

Looking at yourself as somebody who was in rebellion or were you looking at yourself as somebody who is totally

outside of the faith or.

Were you justifying what you were doing?

A lot of Christians justify sin for a number of reasons.

I.

Actually Asked Christ to be my Savior.

When I was about 13 years old I was at a youth for Christ skating party in McKinnicksburg, Pennsylvania, and

there was an evangelist there and He was preaching about hell and I didn't want that and so I went

forward at that meeting and and frankly for a while I was really on fire for the Lord.

I was reading everything I could I went to to various conferences, but you

know eventually the draw of.

This.

Desire for fame Just overcame.

I Think I'm just like everybody else, you know at first you're on fire and then things just kind of go away.

Hmm, and so eventually the slide went in the other direction and I

began to Really want.

The popularity the money that would be involved with stardom all of those things just

became more of a draw to me than my relationship with Christ and.

So you.

You did when this was going on in your life.

Was there any Sense that you are rebelling against God or was it

more that I am doing something illegal and could pay a heavy price.

Legally for this I was more concerned with the government than I was with God.

I was one of those people who was rationalizing the things that I was doing and.

So tell us about how.

Unfortunately.

Well actually fortunately, I shouldn't say unfortunately.

Fortunately, although it didn't seem like it was a fortunate thing at the time for you.

You got caught and arrested.

Tell us about that.

Well, a lot of things were happening at that point.

I was dealing so many drugs at that time that we actually had

some fellows coming from Brazil that would bring the drugs in and I would.

Get with them an occasion and help them to find some musical equipment that they could take back.

I struck up a friendship with them.

I had even more drugs at that time and I was starting to make some money.

I had a big -screen TV when they were still very expensive.

I had a Cadillac.

I had an Audi.

I had a Mercedes.

I had all of these material things that the band was getting more and more popular and as we got

more and more popular I think we drew more and more attention.

Hmm, and we eventually found out that there was a federal grand jury investigation going on

into our drug dealing.

Hmm and When you just mentioned the flat -screen TV a lot of our younger listeners

Who grew up with flat -screen TVs they might be shocked to know that.

Rent the year 2000 when I first had purchased a home in New

York and I had the architect Make arrangements so that I would be able to have a

flat -screen TV on every wall.

Eventually, he said are you crazy these things cost ten thousand dollars apiece.

Minimally.

And I said well one day they're gonna go down.

And certain.

Sure enough they did obviously and this was in the 1980s.

Yeah, very expensive.

Yeah, so I had all of these material possessions.

I had the popularity.

We actually when I did get busted or when I went to and I'll explain that in a minute when I went to the

federal Marshals and gave myself up.

We were at the process at that point of negotiating with Geffen records to sign a contract.

Wow, what was the name of the group.

The name of the group at that point was the edge.

The edge.

Yeah, now for many years it was a group called moon and moon in the central Pennsylvania area was voted the

most popular band back in those days and we literally prayed for you know

crowds of tens of thousands of people.

Wow and.

We're just at a curiosity, where are the former members of edge or moon today?

Most of them are born -again Christians.

Wow one of them the fellow who was the lead singer

About a week before his death and he died at the age of 48 Had sent me a message on my guestbook

telling me that he is so thankful for me and for leading him to a relationship with Lord and.

Then as I said just a couple of weeks later, he was watching television.

He got up he went over closed his curtains and fell over dead.

Well, it was a stroke or heart attack.

It's a heart attack.

Hmm.

Wow, probably the result of all the cocaine that we used to do.

Yeah, and.

So.

Tell us about exactly that day when you were arrested and what was going through your mind.

Well again, I had been told by my brother -in -law that there was a grand jury investigation going on.

I Found out later.

We had gone to buy another car.

We had gone to buy a BMW and we were at the car dealership and as we were standing there at

the car dealership My brother -in -law that looked at me and he said shh, you know, just

put his finger up.

He didn't want me to say anything more and I didn't know what was up.

He walked over to the car dealer and lifted the man's shirt and there was a wire tap on him.

Wow, well, I knew at that point that I was in trouble.

Hmm so we left there and he retained an attorney

and The attorney knowing that I had never been in trouble before suggested that I go to the federal marshals and give

myself up.

And I did that.

Hmm, and I didn't have to as they would say in those days.

I didn't have to narc on anybody because I didn't know a lot about who was dealing the drugs.

There was one fellow that I was familiar with and I know that he had already been in trouble.

So.

He was already speaking with his attorney.

So I went to the grid the federal Marshals and I gave myself up and it really for me.

I had never been handcuffed never was handcuffed.

Wow, and it was a most amazing event and I as I look back on it now I can really see

God's hand in it.

There were a lot of things going on.

First of all for almost 11 years.

I had been estranged from my family because they were all Christians and

Whenever I was around them that the light of Christ would just shine in that darkness in my life.

And it truly hurt and so I didn't spend much time around my family when this

occurred.

I Realized that I needed to humble myself and get back to my parents and tell him what was

happening.

And I'll never forget that day because I told my mom and dad what was going on and they looked at me and said we know.

We read it in the paper.

We were just waiting for you to come in.

Wow so they were patiently waiting for me to come and do what they felt was right and I did

and I mean after 11 years, I was finally I

Could go in front of my parents and I could feel comfortable in being there.

Even though I knew there was something ahead of me.

That was not going to be good by any means that I was going to have to stand before that federal grand jury.

I knew there was going to be a penalty for my sins and I didn't know what they were.

But I felt cleansed at that point and even though I had not gone back to Christ and and asked him for forgiveness.

My parents had forgiven me and to me that was very important.

Yeah, by the way.

I want to give our listeners our email address if you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own.

Our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name your city and state your country of residence if you live

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Think it's wisest not to reveal your identity.

We accept Anonymous questions from our listeners and we will honor that.

So Just send us a question to Chris Arnzen at gmail .com and if

you can we would love to at least have your first name city and state and country of residence if that's okay and.

So what kind of Incarceration did you experience after this?

Let me go back a little bit before I get there actually.

Knowing that something was going to occur.

I decided at that point.

It was probably best to get out of the band I had went out and tried to find a job and I

found a job working through a temp agency.

And I was still still still so full of myself Chris that when I went in to interview with the temp agency I

told them where I wanted to work.

The woman that I lived with at the time Worked for DuPont and she worked at Berg electronics in Camp Hill.

And so I went to this agency and I said listen I need a job and here's where I want to work.

You have a job for me.

Call me.

And the poor lady in that office looked at me and said That's not the way it works.

I said listen if you got a job for me at Berg electronics I'll take it and I walked out the door.

I Drove to my home 15 minutes away.

And when I got there, the phone was ringing and the next day I started it.

And so sometimes being proud Doesn't necessarily Immediately

give you the the negative consequences that you deserve.

I.

Worked there probably For several months and really enjoyed working in there.

And apparently I was doing a good job.

Someone from the human resources department talked with me and said listen, we're interested in hiring you full -time.

And I said well you need to know something.

You need to know that I am in trouble.

I was doing drugs.

I was dealing drugs.

I am going to have to go to court.

I don't know what's going to happen and She after a moment looked at me and said, you know, that's

okay.

We have a drug rehab program.

We'll work with you.

The next day I lost my job.

Really so.

Was she being dishonest or what was going on there?

I have no idea I don't.

They didn't tell you why they dismissed you know because it was a temp.

They could dismiss me without right reason and so I was gone the next day.

I began to look for other jobs through a temp agency.

At that point I had been knocked down a peg or two.

So I said just put me where you want me.

They put me in the Harrisburg incinerator plant where they Literally dry out the

defecation that comes in there.

Wow.

And I went there For the first day and I had my little brown bag with my lunch in it until I

found out that this dried defecation would eventually Make its way into the air.

That machine that furnace would belch and this dry stuff come all over your skin.

And I said, you know what?

I'm not even going to open this bag.

I'm leaving now.

I.

Didn't make it a full day there.

I went then to another job working menial labor for this company and I had a

great time there because they were doing the the things for the Pennsylvania

turnpike that show that how much you owe and all of that stuff the machines and we were testing them but we would

go out at lunchtime and we would take our bow and arrows with us and we'd shoot off the back of The dock and then we'd go to lunch and

we'd sit and drink for an hour or two and then we would work our way Back and spend the last hour working.

I.

Loved that job.

But I knew that I needed something that was going to be more permanent So that it would look

better for me when I stood before the judge before the grand jury I should say and I kept

seeing this ad in the newspaper for a part -time clerk part -time

Salesperson at specialty bakers in Marysville now specialty bakers.

What that time was known for Ladyfingers?

Ladyfingers is a dessert that they alone in this nation made at least a sponge cake at that time

and they Delivered all over the United States Canada and Puerto Rico and I kept looking at that going saying that I

don't want to do that.

If I go to a place like that, I'm gonna end up getting fat.

But every time I opened that newspaper, that's the first thing that hit me and finally I said.

And again, I had not reconciled with the Lord.

I said, okay God if that's what you want I'm gonna call them and I called them and they said,

okay.

Well, here's the deal.

We're looking for someone who will be able to work some part -time doing some clerical work and we

have a subsidiary company that does fundraising and So we need somebody to sell

the fundraising products to the schools and other organizations in the area would you come in for an interview and I went in and

They offered me a job and I was so bold again that I said, well listen, you know, that's not enough money.

Here's what I need and I need a company car.

Well, let's pick up our discussion right after the break right where were you left off and.

We're gonna be right back after these messages if you'd like to join us on the air.

Our email address is again is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Don't go away.

We'll be right back with pastor Larry Hale.

I'm Chris Arnzen host of iron sharpens iron radio.

And here's one of my favorite guests Todd Friel to tell you about a conference.

He and I are going to.

Hello, this is Todd Friel host of wretched radio and a wretched a TV and

Occasional guest on Chris's show.

I think I think that's what it's called.

Hoping that you can join Chris and me at the g3 conference in Atlanta.

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It is going to be a bang -up conference called the g3 conference

celebrating the 500th anniversary of the Protestant Reformation with Paul Washer

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Welcome Conrad and Bayway Phil Johnson James White and a bunch of other people.

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Where Christ finds people and changes lives.

Welcome back.

This is Chris Arns.

And if you just tuned us in our guest today is Pastor Larry Hale the senior pastor of

Glenvale Church of God in Marysville, Pennsylvania and we're finding out about his fast and

fascinating testimony of salvation in Christ Jesus after having been a

Drug dealer and if you'd like to join us on the air, our email address is Chris Arnson at

gmail .com.

Chris Arnson at gmail .com.

Before I return to our discussion.

The folks at Ligonier ministries want to remind you that they are having their dawn of the

Reformation Bible Conference October 28th through the 29th.

That's this weekend in Lancaster, Pennsylvania.

Speakers include.

Dr. Albert Moller the president of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, Kentucky.

Stephen Nichols who is the president of Reformation Bible College in the Orlando area,

which is the Bible College founded by dr. R. C. Sproul and Ligonier ministries

Derek Thomas Who is the senior minister of the historic First Presbyterian Church

in Columbia, South Carolina, Carolina?

He's also a prolific writer and He has also in addition to the

men.

I just mentioned He has been on iron sharpens iron as a guest and last but not

least R .C. Sproul himself will be at this conference.

He is the founder of Ligonier ministries author of numerous books and a world -renowned

evangelist Bible teacher and he hosts Renewing your mind with R .C.

Sproul which it can be heard on radio and television all over the world.

If you'd like more details about this conference go to Ligonier org.

That's spelt l -i -g -o -n -i -e -r dot o -r -g L -i -g -o

-n -i -e -r dot o -r -g and click on events at the top of the page.

God willing I am going to be there and I hope that many of you listening especially those of you who live near

Lancaster Make the effort to be there.

I would love to meet you face to face and Just please make every effort

to be there that you can that's Ligonier org.

Ligonier org for the 2016 regional conference the dawn of the Reformation October

28th through the 29th in Lancaster, Pennsylvania and we are

continuing our discussion with pastor Larry Hale of the Glenvale Church of God in Marysville,

Pennsylvania and When we left the discussion to go to a station break

you were basically telling us another Humorous anecdote about your pride being involved

in your selection of.

Getting employment.

You know, I see it now as Part of God's plan also preparing me for

what he had in store for me at any rate I had told these folks what I wanted

and the owner said well, I'll get back to you.

And once again, I Drove to my home which was not far from there and

it wasn't long after that that I received a phone call and They said would you come back in we want

to talk with you again?

He said I'm going to play some tennis.

I'll be back in a couple of hours meet us at whatever time it was and so I went back in and I met with the

owner of the company and his wife and the national sales manager of the bakery and

They hired me on the spot.

And.

So how long did you work there and.

And tell us about the events that led up to you actually Paying the price for what you had

been doing illegally as a living.

Well, I worked there from.

1984 up until 1989.

Again, God's hand was in all of this.

I did have to tell them What was happening and they too said, you know what?

That's that's okay.

And The the fella who was really the

Guy that began specialty bakers the grandfather of the man that hired me.

We affectionately called pap after I got to know him.

He said to me one day said, you know, we're gonna work with you.

We're gonna do all that we can to help you.

And so he began to talk to some people that he knew trying to see what they could do for me

that year.

That I started there I literally had nothing.

They Brought firewood to my home.

They brought Christmas gifts for my children.

It just turned about it just turned to be such a blessing from God.

And While I was there, I met a fail fellow by the name of Dale Simmons.

Dale's was the data manager.

He's the guy that ran the computers there and Well, let me stop right

there go back to the court hearing.

By the time that I had gone to the federal court to the

Grand jury I Had reconciled with my family.

I was working this job.

I even married the woman that I was living with at the time because I thought it would look good got my hair cut you know did all of these

things and I knew that my mom and dad were praying for me.

Finally the day came that I had to be in court and I'll never forget that day.

Not because not only because I had to stand before that federal grand jury but

also because my mom and dad were not there and That probably hurt me

more than the sentence that I got.

But when that sentence came down The combination of my parents not being there and this sentence which was

two years in a federal penitentiary.

When that occurred I was really at the lowest point in my life.

And I.

Began to really cry out to God because while I was on this work -release program this man by the name of Dale Simmons

Began to talk to me.

He began to actually before I even got sentenced.

He began to talk to me about the things of the Lord.

I'm getting things mixed up here.

So forgive me.

It's been a long time.

That's all right.

I was sentenced to two years in federal penitentiary.

I sat back down and the court continued with the other fellows that were there and by the

time they were done We were getting ready to go and the judge called me back up to the bench and

he took away the two -year sentence in a federal penitentiary and Gave me six months in a county jail

on a work -release program.

Now.

I was still a federal prisoner.

I had to pay for the privilege of staying in Dauphin County Prison but I was able to continue working at

specialty bakers and You know that just was unheard of.

Hmm.

And so I found out later the reason my mom and dad were not in the courtroom is because they were at home on their Knees praying for me.

Wow, and I believe God intervened there.

My life certainly began to take a different turn.

This is this fella Dale Simmons kept witnessing to me.

I would walk with him every day when I was on that work -release program and He would tell me more and more about the Lord and

I came to realize that I wasn't really a Christian.

Hmm.

I had just grabbed some fire insurance when I was a teenager.

And he made me realize this also.

Because I was under the impression that God would send me to hell for the things that I did and he said no.

That's not true.

God will not send you to hell if you go to hell.

It's your own choice.

Because he offers you that free gift of eternal life.

If you will repent of your sins and ask him to forgive you he will forgive you and you become a

new creation in Christ and.

I.

Began to.

I Began to go to church.

As a matter of fact.

As soon as I got off of that that six months which by the way, I only served about four months of that and

you the Warden came into the prison one day and said hey get your stuff.

You're out of here.

Go and I just I flew out of that place.

I I went back to work and I was so happy that following Sunday I went to church.

I went to a little country church a United Methodist Church in the Marysville Valley and I Walked in the

doors that Sunday morning and there was a big banner that said God sets a prisoner free.

Hmm.

That was in 1985.

Hmm.

Every once in a while I get to preach at that church that banner still there.

Wow.

So I'm assuming that this is a Bible believing United Methodist congregation.

Yes, it is a Bible believing Methodist congregation and.

I went there for a bit and then I ended up going because Dale Simmons the fellow that was my spiritual

father Went to a Christian and Missionary Alliance Church in New Buffalo.

He invited me up there one day and I went up there and and I I really liked the Christian and Missionary

Alliance.

I loved the pastor that was there.

He was so straightforward yet so loving and I began to go there and eventually one day

I went up to his apartment.

He and his wife lived in a townhouse. I should say in Duncan in Pennsylvania and

I spoke with him and I knelt at his couch.

And I received Christ not only as my Savior, but the Lord of my life praise God.

Now obviously you and I as Christians know that.

You're getting such an easy sentence and being released so free and so forth were a part of

his mercy.

But what was the earthly explanation given to you if any for that?

Well, the earthly explanation was that you know, the fellow that was the

Patriarch of the bakery knew a lot of influential people.

Hmm, but I know better.

I know exactly what it was and it began a change in my life that has

been the most amazing transformation.

Because I just never thought that God would be able to use me the way that he is using me today.

I have spoken to Many denominations throughout the United States of

America.

I have spoken at conventions and conferences.

I spoke at creation festival.

I spoke at vision festival which is no longer around but that was a fairly large

festival in around the Williamsport area and then Luella and I

Eventually got married the woman that I married when I got busted.

She ended up leaving me and and so I thought you know, I'll never get married again.

I'm just gonna follow the Lord and and.

In.

1989 the bakery was sold and The fellow that

hired me he and I had become best friends over the years.

He didn't want anything to do with Christ, by the way.

But he and I then opened a computer business and an internet business in Camp Hill, Pennsylvania

Complete computer solutions and Internet Gateway Corporation.

Is it still there?

No, no, no we did that for several years and Eventually decided to close

down the computer business and just do the internet business.

We sold dial -up so you can tell how long ago that was it with dial -up connections to the internet, but we also sold

direct point -to -point t1s for businesses and we did website design and all kinds of things in that

realm and In one year actually, let me let me say this I

Started going to a church in Enola, Pennsylvania and the first time I walked in there.

I saw Luella my wife.

And I said, hey, I know her we used to sing together in chorus in high school.

Wow, and I Didn't really think much More about

that but then one day we were having a Hayride and so I went to her home to pick her up to take

her along with the other folks that were with me and she came out with a little bag of Filled with apples that

she had quartered and all of a sudden.

I just looked at her and went Wow I'd seen her in a different light than I had ever seen

her before and.

We.

Just became friends again or actually friends because before we had not really been friends.

We had been acquaintances.

We were both going to the same church then and somebody had heard me sing and said, you know.

You really ought to sing in church sometime.

Now I.

Walked in front of that church one Sunday morning to sing Chris and again having sung in front of tens of

thousands of people.

I Just completely lost it.

I went white.

I was sweating profusely I could barely get through this thing.

My knees were shaking and I thought I'm never gonna do that again.

Hmm, and then eventually somebody said well Luella sings Why don't you get together with her and sing and

that once again was part of God's plan for my life.

I had no desire to get married again and She had no desire to be

married.

She really is an awesome godly woman, I don't want to embarrass her but

When we married we were 41 years old and She was a virgin.

Because she had such an intense Commitment to the Lord and I'm gonna say God used her in a mighty way to

bring me to where I am today.

I think you really build a solid foundation for me because I had a woman who

knew what she wanted in the Lord.

And a woman who stood on the solid ground and that really helped me develop my

foundation.

Little did I know that eventually we would end up singing in venues across the United States.

That I would be preaching and it all started with us going into a couple of local churches.

There's a gospel group.

That is now retired.

But it's a group called the couriers.

Oh, yeah, and Fellow by the name of Phil Enloe walked into the computer shop one day

and he had a problem and I began to See what I could do to help him and we became fast friends.

During that time they had two events at the forum in Harrisburg every year.

They had two concerts and they would bring in the top names southern gospel groups.

Well, this is just prior to us getting married.

He said to me one day.

He said would you and Luella come and sing at one of those concerts and I'm like Okay.

And we did and we continued to do that we continue to build the friends friendship with Phil and with his

brother Neal and with Dwayne Nicholson and eventually, they took us

under their wing and Just said here's our database begin to call these churches.

Tell them we said you're to come in there and sing and When we started doing that it was just a

few months after that.

That we literally had to quit our daytime jobs and Begin to go out in

full -time ministry.

Now God put that all together.

The year that we were married Mike vandling who owned specialty bakers got

married that same year.

Also.

We got married in June.

He got married in October and while we were away on we went with them on their honeymoon at least

for the first couple of weeks and and While we were down in Florida, he came to know

Christ as his Savior.

Oh, praise God so amazingly and and he has served Lord now for years and

has still a great desire to serve Lord in capacity of a keyboard player for worship

groups and so God changed both of our lives through the through specialty bakers

and in the Relationship that we developed there.

Did he bake your wedding cake?

No, they did not because if I was him I would have as a practical joke put a hacksaw in it.

Let's see, I know that we had a Let's see, we have a

Anonymous listener.

Mm -hmm.

The anonymous listener.

Let's see.

Here it is wants to know.

Do you believe in tough love when it comes to children with drug problems and kicking them out of the

house?

If necessary if they are unrepentant, well, this is going forward many many years.

But my son began to walk that same track.

I don't know if he dealt drugs but he certainly did a lot of alcohol and and I know that he was doing some drugs

and he had been living with us and we you know had to

Invoke a little bit of tough love and I said son We would love to have you here.

But here are the rules and if you cannot follow these rules then you're going to have to leave and and we did have to kick him out.

He then Later married a beautiful woman has three wonderful daughters.

They he was at one point one of the trustees at our church.

They are all born again.

The girls are all baptized.

They're not currently attending a church regularly because they had moved to Dillsburg and they got involved in the church there and

something happened.

They still follow the Lord they still serve the Lord.

And Had it not been for that tough love.

I'm not sure that that wouldn't happen or would have happened.

Yeah, people might view that a parent kicking a child out of the house or anything like

that.

They may view that as a very harsh and unloving thing but sometimes when you're rescuing

somebody from almost certain death or You're rescuing them or attempting to rescue them from

some horrific consequences in their lives.

That is the best way to demonstrate love is to be harsh

or to be strict or to Have a conviction

where you're more concerned over your child's life and eternity than you are over there their

comfort or feelings as a.

Pastor, I have had a lot of experience with families that have children that are on drugs or

alcohol and Invariably It's always worse when the

parents Enable their children when they bail them out.

Listen, my mom and dad when I was in my 30s, I had I Had a credit card and I would rack

that thing up and I would max it out and they would pay it off and finally They said to me one day son, that's it.

We love you, but we are not going to bail you out again.

You're gonna have to live your own life.

You're gonna have to make your own way.

And that's essentially what I did with him.

And when that happened, I realized that I needed to change my life.

Yeah, even even church discipline if it's done appropriately and done and

with the motivation of love and restoration by a Church that is faithful

to Christ in the scriptures Church discipline is intended to be an act of love.

I am somebody who yes has been under church discipline myself in the past when

I fell back tragically into alcoholic or alcohol

abuse at very dangerous levels of alcohol abuse and

The church put me under church discipline under discipline and if they had not done that

I don't know for certain if I'd be sitting here alive today, and I was completely restored.

In fact my pastor my former pastor Has been a guest on this

program and we discussed the need in the church today for church discipline because it's a very

biblical thing and We were even talking a bit about my own

discipline.

I don't know if that's the first time in radio history that has ever happened where a pastor and

His former congregant were discussing as the as the theme church discipline after that

pastor had disciplined that Talk show host.

I don't know if that's ever happened before.

But I thought it was a great interview myself and I

Think that that is one of the things that is tragically seemingly

most absent in the modern evangelical church or church at large is because people view

that.

As.

Judgmental.

They judge it as just harsh and unloving but it's a biblical concept.

It's clearly in the scriptures.

It certainly is God's plan of restoration and it has to be done in love.

The amazing thing is when God transformed me when he made me to

Be able to serve him.

He changed my heart because for so many years life was all about me.

But when he called me to Glenvale Church of God, that's when the change occurred.

He gave me a supernatural love for the people there.

I just love the congregation there and it's hard to discipline somebody.

You'd never want to do that.

But you love them so much you have to do that, right?

You're not going to let your child play in traffic.

You're not going to let Your child stick a fork in an electric outlet or do any other kind

of dangerous thing.

So therefore, why would you want anyone else you love to be doing something that not only endangers?

Their physical well -being but also endangers their eternity and.

So therefore people, you know have to recognize that one done appropriately.

Things that appear to be harsh on their surface can be the the height of love

especially because it's not a thing that people are comfortable doing and People

are very often more concerned about the feelings of others than they are about

their souls and there are also more concerned very often sadly about winning

approval and having friends and supporters in large congregations.

Than they are about the eternal never dying souls of those hearing them speak, but we're going

to Another break right now.

And by the way, the anonymous listener who wrote in You indicated that you are first -time

listener.

You are eligible now to have a free New American Standard Bible

this is a beautiful edition of the NASB that has An engraved or

an embossed.

I should say an embossed cross on the cover.

This is compliments of the publishers of the NASB who have been sponsoring this program since our inception

in 2006 walls we need from you is your full name and Mailing address and I obviously assure you

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So just if you'd like that Bible absolutely free of charge just submit to us.

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So if you'd like to join us as well with questions of your own.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

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Don't go away.

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Chris arms in here, and I can't wait to head down to Atlanta, Georgia, and here's my friend.

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Hi, I'm James white of Alpha and Omega ministries.

I hope you join me at the g3 conference hosted by pastor Josh vice and praise mill Baptist Church at

the Georgia International Convention Center in Atlanta January 19th to the 21st in

celebration of the 500th anniversary of the Protestant Reformation.

I'll be joined by Paul Washer Steve Lawson da Carson Vodie Balcom Conrad and Bayway

Phil Johnson Rosaria Butterfield Todd Friel and a host of other speakers who are dedicated to the pillars

of what g3 stands for Gospel grace and glory.

For more details. Go to g3 conference .com.

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Thanks, James.

Make sure you greet me at the iron sharpens iron exhibit booth while you're there.

Lindbergh Baptist Church on 225 Earl Avenue in Lindbrook Long Island is teaching God's timeless truths in

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That's Lindbrook Baptist org.

Welcome back.

This is Chris Arnzen if you just tuned us in.

Our guest today for the full two hours with about an hour to go is Larry Hale senior pastor

of Glenvale Church of God in Marysville, Pennsylvania.

And we are discussing from pushing death to preaching life the testimony of a drug dealer turned pastor.

If you'd like to join us on the air our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

And we do have a listener in White Plains, New York.

RJ.

But before I go to RJ, I just want to remind you about the Ligonier conference that is being held

this weekend.

Ligonier ministries as you probably most of you know is a wonderful ministry teaching

ministry of dr RC sprawl.

They are having the 2016 regional conference this Saturday and Sunday, October

28th and 29th in Lancaster, Pennsylvania.

And.

The the speaker lineup is really wonderful al moeller from the Southern Baptist Theological

Seminary in Louisville, Kentucky.

Stephen Nichols who is the president of Reformation Bible College in Orlando?

Dr. Tarek Thomas who is the pastor of historic first Presbyterian Church in Columbia, South Carolina

and the author of a number of books.

And a well -known world -renowned conference speaker and finally, dr. RC sprawl himself.

Will be there on the dawn of the Reformation.

And in addition to going to Ligonier org to register Ligoni er

org clicking on events at the top of the Web page

you can also call them toll -free at 800 435 434 3

800 435 434 3 and just tell them that you want to register for the 2016

regional conference and and by the way, they are close to selling out completely.

So if you haven't already registered try to do that today if at all possible, I would love to see you there.

I intend to be there.

I've already registered.

And I'm looking forward to meeting Many of you who are listeners to iron sharpens iron

in the audience there.

So call 1 800 435 434 3 and when you register, please make sure

you mention That you heard about the conference from iron sharpens

iron radio.

Don't forget to mention that whenever you contact anybody sponsoring this program because it only helps us to get further

support in the future from them something that we urgently need.

RJ and White Plains, New York wants to know what your opinion is of a a and an a.

Obviously they do work.

I I think that a Christian based Program is more

effective but for some people a a or na They they do work.

Mm -hmm.

Now I encourage folks especially parents if there are parents of

Alcoholics or drug addicts listening or if you were a drug addict or alcoholic there are some fine

ministries that I'm aware of that have really been helpful have a Great rate of

success and one of those is teen challenge.

Teen challenges all over the nation and in different parts of the world.

But they do a wonderful job.

We're in little rural Perry County.

Perry County, Pennsylvania folks is so small that the biggest city is Walmart.

We just got our first traffic signal a few years ago and believe it or not in that

rural area drugs are a real problem, especially heroin and

It bothers me when I see parents listen to me parents when I see parents that are enabling their

children that they're not Giving them tough love.

They're allowing them to continue to do the same thing over and over again by bailing them

out every time they get in trouble by taking care of their fines when they get

fines or paying off the Restitution when they get caught for stealing or whatever it may be and the kids

can can you down that same trap?

And you know, you cannot walk down that same road every day and expect to get to a different place there has to be a change

somewhere and that tough love Can be the catalyst for that change

and if you do have influence over them get them into a program like teen

Challenge we we recently had someone graduate from teen challenge.

It is now going to school studying to be a counselor to help others.

We have a fellow that's a in teen challenge right now that it was a heroin addict.

He literally died three times within 30 days and was revived and he had to go to court

and I said Here's what I want you to do.

I'm gonna put you in contact with teen challenge.

I want you to take the time to fill out their paperwork.

And when you go to be stamped before that judge you tell them that you can possibly get into this program and I bet the

judge will let you off of that sentence as long as you go through that program and stay there and he is in that program now and

he is so full of the joy of the Lord and he is free from the drugs and He will leave that

place clean and productive.

Amen.

Yes, I happen to actually know pastor Jimmy Jack.

That's his real name.

He is the founder of the Long Island teen challenge and Suffolk County,

Long Island, New York and doing a fine work there.

I also know a colleague of his Bobby Lloyd who is a dear friend of mine.

Also someone who was a drug dealer in the 1970s Arrested

spent time in prison and was saved by the grace of Christ in prison and is now a co

-pastor of the Freedom Chapel Assembly of God in Amityville, Long Island.

And I have to try to get Bobby as a guest on this program because he is a

Wonderful brother who's got a phenomenal amazing testimony in fact.

He.

Survived.

He's one of the very few people that survived pancreatic cancer because that is Almost certainly a death

sentence.

My mother passed away from pancreatic cancer.

Thankfully She was a believer and is in glory with Christ for eternity.

But Bobby was one of those rare individual rare individuals whose doctor had a hunch

During a routine test that led him to getting the proper Cat

scans and everything else he needed to detect this one.

It was a very early stage cancer and he was rescued from that.

But that's just my way of just giving another plug for Bobby Lloyd and and who

also runs Long Island citizens for community values and Long Island, New York, and they've shut

down a number of strip clubs and adult bookstores adult video

stores pornographic movie theaters and things like that through their community work

there.

But.

The to give my own two cents about a a and na I know that they can

technically work and Especially, you know may prove to be initially valuable

as an emergency kind of a situation and sometimes it's a legally required thing depending on a

person's Legal circumstances, but I can say that

I think that there is also a Danger that is involved in those groups that do not have

Christ as their Center because they do teach a false God.

When you tell someone that your higher power can be anything or any one that you want it to be that is a false

Gospel really?

Yes, they would never call it a gospel, but it is their message of hope and that they'll even

use terms like Salvation and redemption on occasion.

They'll use religious terms and they even you know involve pray prayer.

I should say they will have the The the closing of their meetings with the with

the Lord's Prayer and that is another thing that is in question on whether a Christian should

be involved in joining with people who are not believers as They lead you in

prayer and so on.

So there's a lot of things and last but not least.

I think that if your wife or your

sister or your daughter are.

Our addicts.

Those can be very dangerous places for them because They are going to be sitting in the same rooms

with sometimes Convicted criminals who are there because they're legally required to be there and I've

heard a number of tragic stories about women being assaulted and even.

Murdered.

I'm not saying that's a rampant thing going on.

It's especially the murder aspect but but those can be dangerous places for young ladies.

To be at I'm sure men can have their own experience with danger, but

especially obviously you'd want to be very cautious about your The women in your life

being a part of those organizations, but someday soon.

I'm hoping to have like a full one or two hour broadcast on that specific subject and I

know that I offend even some of my Christian brethren when I Am critical of AA and NA

because some of my Christian brethren are actively involved in them those organizations, but

having said that I think that that the truth matters doctrine matters

and telling people that you could believe in any God that you want to Invent in your mind is it's a

dangerous.

There's a dangerous thing and I know that I know you already said something about it.

But if you could Is there anything more that you wanted to say specifically about

the danger of coddling?

Children and others you love it might even be your spouse.

It might be somebody else that you love Where you're not Telling them look either you

Repent of this or I am going to have to disassociate you from my life where you're giving them some kind of

ultimatum where they have to.

Take.

Responsibility for their actions and that you are not going to cater to their whims That

are only endangering not only their own lives and their eternity, but those perhaps around them.

Well, here's the thing.

Sometimes people have got to hit rock -bottom.

Mm -hmm before they look up in my case.

My parents did not Ostracize me.

I was already out of the house.

I was always married.

They would have been happy to have me in their lives, but I was not in their lives because as I said earlier I couldn't stand to

be around them because of their beliefs in the Lord.

But.

Here's the thing when parents allow their children or whether it be spouses.

Whether it be whatever it is if they allow them to continue in that addiction without

interceding some way.

Let me say this I end up having to do funerals too many

teenagers.

They said in our rural area.

I Do too many funerals for kids, especially that are on heroin.

And so we have to do something.

I also want to mention this we're so blessed at Glenvale Church of God.

God has called us our mission is to be a hospital on the hill.

Mm -hmm.

And we have been blessed over the years God putting people into positions there to be able to help people in

drug abuse or Alcohol abuse or families in crisis or women in crisis.

One of our pastors pastor Vicki who is in the hospital right now.

She's going to have a stent put in her heart tomorrow.

Just think about her pray for.

She deals with women in crisis.

She's very heavily involved in new life for girls.

Which is a ministry to girls who are going through crisis, whether it be drugs or alcohol or abuse or

whatever it may be.

You just can't let them go, you know.

Children die every day from overdoses of drugs or overdoses of alcohol.

Sometimes you can reach them.

Sometimes you can't.

But enabling them makes it even worse for you.

Because you will come to that point in your life where you realize that had you stopped them.

Had you done something dramatic or drastic to help them?

They may not be.

In a grave.

Mm -hmm.

Yes, and I happen to know of circumstances where.

There were.

Young men and young women who have Overdosed on a number of occasions

and the Lord showed mercy to them over and over again rescued them from certain

death and then after a period of sobriety they go right back.

It's just a Tragic thing about these these types of

sins that have physical addictions attached to them we you know, we've been talking about being

strong and tough and and And being

Not not lacking in discipline when it comes to those who are under our care

like children or perhaps even in a church, but Isn't there also something that we have to

keep in mind simultaneously on the other end of the spectrum?

We can never look at people as totally lost causes.

We can give up on them and we can become In a true sense of the

term judgmental not like the world or even many Christians use that term

whenever you Bring up a criticism or seek to enact discipline on somebody

in sin.

They'll say you're judgmental or if you disagree with some serious theological errors that they have

They'll say you're judgmental.

But but Christ told us to judge rightly.

He didn't say that we're not to judge at all.

In fact, we all do the very moment that somebody says you're judgmental.

That's a judgment.

But don't we have to though be very cautious not to on even

unconsciously begin to become pharisaic we we can look at

people as they are the the wretched Unsavable

Wastes of our time and effort and our love and our compassion.

We should be you know spending our efforts on other people and we could give up on people.

Isn't that a danger?

That is definitely a danger and I praise God.

Once again, my parents did not know how deeply I was involved in the things that I was

involved in.

They simply knew that I was not where I should be.

They knew that I was the only one of their children that was not following the Lord and here's what they did.

They prayed.

My mother would get up at two and three o 'clock in the morning and she would pray for her son and she would claim me For

the kingdom of heaven, even though she didn't know what was going on.

She knew that there was something wrong, you know, the effectual fervent prayers of a righteous mama availeth much.

And so my mother my sisters my father.

They all prayed for me constantly and I think we need to remember that even when it comes to drugs and

alcohol.

We're not necessarily Fighting things in a spiritual in a physical realm, but

rather we're still fighting the enemy of our souls.

And Satan is out there and he is actively pursuing those people that he can pursue.

He is trying to get them hooked on drugs or whatever it may be to keep their eyes off of the Lord.

So the most important thing that we can do for our children our grandchildren our husband our wife.

Whatever it may be is be in prayer constantly.

James chapter 4 7 says that if we submit ourselves therefore in the God we can resist the devil and he will flee.

We have that power and authority in the name of Jesus and.

And we need to do that.

We need to be on our prayer bones.

That is the most valuable weapon that we have and Then we have to in love

help correct the problem.

Harrison from Mechanics Berg asked if you think that there is a problem when even Christians

Adopt the terminology of the world referring to addictions as as disease.

You know truly I have not given that much thought.

I know that it is referred to as disease.

But let me say this I believe because of the prayers of my

family.

That when I got saved listen, this is highly unusual, but I was not only very

Addicted to the drugs and I know some people say you cannot be addicted to cocaine.

But it is more than just a physical addiction.

It is a craving that you have constantly.

For months and months after I quit using cocaine I could still sense that that feeling.

I could still sense that smell in my nose.

When I got saved and I leaned or I knelt down before that couch that day

I repented of all of my sins.

Listen.

I was a womanizer.

I had a foul mouth.

I Smoked cigarettes one after another.

I drank heavily.

I did all these drugs.

I did all of these things.

I used the Lord's name in vain and when I get saved it was all gone.

Hmm.

Hey, did you like that?

Well, praise God for that obviously though you are still someone who just like all of us who are not

yet in glory you do Struggle with sin on a very daily basis.

Oh, amen.

Amen.

I am just like everybody else.

You know, the Word of God says that we all sin and fall short of the glory of God pastors preachers teachers

evangelists apostles.

We are all still human beings.

We all still fail.

Last week I had to stand before my con actually sit before my congregation and confess a sin before them

because We had a family in our congregation that has been there been members of the church for many

years.

They had a daughter that was in the hospital.

They made me aware of it.

I had her on our prayer chain.

We were praying for her in church.

I didn't realize how how serious her condition was and I didn't react quick

enough and it's kind of just has been dwelling on their minds for several months and

I found that that they decided they were going to leave the church.

And so I called them and I said, you know, all I can do is apologize.

I am so sorry.

You know it is definitely my fault even though I have a staff that I could have assigned to that for some reason it just kind

of Fell between the cracks and all I can do is ask you to forgive me and they were gracious and they forgiven me.

But they also said, you know, we feel like we need to go someplace to heal.

Of course that breaks my heart because God's calling on our church on our congregation is to be a hospital in the

hilltop we're supposed to be a sanctuary where people can come and and and We can be there to help

them and be there for them.

And and so yeah, you know, I'm just a human being.

I Make mistakes.

I sin I fall sure the glory of God, but I praise God that Even though the wages of sin is death

the gift of God's eternal life through Jesus Christ and sometimes.

Those of us who have conquered addictions by the grace of God we can tend to be

at times Ironically sometimes I'm not saying this happens with everybody.

Some people who are freed from addictions are more compassionate to those with those problems.

Others are More openly critical of those with

addictions because they Say to themselves I kicked this I repented of this

you have no excuse.

Now obviously there is some element of truth in there but at the same time we who

have been rescued from sin we have to be

careful not to Get on our high horse as they say.

And we also all of us tend to view things Differently when it

comes to sins in our own backyard than those things that are publicly Scorned that

are more openly Unattractive like drug addiction or sexual sins or other things that

bring more reproach upon a person.

We we can very often succumb to just the sin of pride or

or the sin of lacking compassion and hospitality and Perhaps

selfishness.

And these things will send a person to hell without Christ.

Just as much as a drug addict or as an adulterer or a fornicator without

Christ, of course, right and This is actually our last break right

now.

If anybody would like to join us on the air if you'd like to email a question.

Our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name.

Your city and state and your country of residence.

If you live outside of the USA and as I've been repeating you may remain anonymous if it makes

you feel more comfortable.

So just send us an email and we only have about a half hour left.

So we look forward to hearing from you at Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Don't go away.

We'll be right back.

I'm James White of Alpha Omega Ministries.

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Paul wrote to the church at Galatia for am I now seeking the approval of man or of God?

Or am I trying to please man.

If I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant of Christ.

Hi, I'm Mark Lukens pastor of Providence Baptist Church.

We are a reformed Baptist Church and we hold to the London Baptist confession of faith of 1689.

We are in Norfolk, Massachusetts.

We strive to reflect Paul's mindset to be much more concerned with how God views what we say and what we do

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Welcome back.

This is Chris Arnson.

If you just tuned us in this is the last half hour of our two -hour interview with Larry Hale senior

pastor of Glenvale Church of God in Marysville, Pennsylvania.

We have been discussing his testimony from pushing death to preaching life.

Testimony of a drug dealer turned pastor.

If you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own.

Our email address is Chris Arnson at gmail .com.

Chris Arnson at gmail .com.

Arnie in Perry County, Pennsylvania wants to know.

Let's see here.

Where was it?

Arnie says I've heard my friends who smoke marijuana laugh and say that there is no such

thing as a gateway drug when it comes to pot.

How do I respond to that?

Maybe you could explain what a gateway drug that people will say.

That a gateway drug is something like when you start smoking marijuana.

It will eventually lead to stronger things that are more lethal like heroin or cocaine or anything more

serious more addictive more life -threatening.

There are those who are my peers pastors who do not see marijuana as a

gateway drug but if you were listening earlier in the program, you will know that that for me

definitely was a gateway drug and I believe that it can be a gateway drug for

other people.

It may not be but it certainly can be and and why take the chance?

Why it's like drinking, you know, if you never take that first drink.

You're never gonna become an alcoholic if you never take that first.

Toke off of that joint you will never become addicted to those drugs.

You know, I understand that marijuana itself is not considered to be addictive.

I understand that in my case cocaine is not considered to be addictive.

But as I said, it was definitely a dish an addiction.

I lived for the cocaine.

I had to have it all the time and I praise God because I'm gonna say this and I haven't said this to many

people one day fella came to me that was buying drugs from me and

He took some of the rock cocaine and he smoked it crack cocaine.

Mm -hmm, and I tried it and That was the most euphoric moment that I've ever had

in my life from drugs.

And I praise God that for some reason I never did it again.

Because that is extremely addicting and so my you know, I would just say don't even

start.

Why.

Put yourself in a position that could.

Ruin your life.

I had not heard that cocaine was not addicting.

I have heard that from many different sources.

Really?

Yes, but but crack is which is derivative of the same substance.

Well, it is is literally.

Yeah, not just a derivative.

Smoking that the the cocaine in a rock form or you know, it's just I guess I don't know.

Maybe they do something additional to that.

I'm not sure.

It's been it's been a lot of years.

I I got I went before that grand jury in 1984.

In 1985 is when I got saved so things have changed a lot in those days.

Do you have any opportunities to bring the gospel to those people that you are actually?

Contributing to endangering their lives and their souls through your activities with drug dealing for some of them.

I I have had the opportunity because some of them were members of the bands that I was in and

As I spoke with you earlier today Most of the guys that were in bands with me over the

years are now followers of Jesus Christ.

Amen and.

That whole culture of the secular music world, especially

Contemporary music of any kind especially certain genres seems to be

inseparably connected to drugs.

Do a Christian parent Has a lot of things that you need

to be worried about in this day and age.

They've always had things to worry about going back since Adam and Eve obviously because

Cain slew his own brother, but We have these things.

Today we're sending a child off to a concert can be a

dangerous endeavor.

What is your advice?

To Christian parents when their children want to be involved in secular activities

That include concerts and things where there will certainly be drugs present.

There is always that.

That.

Battle or that tug -of -war between going overboard with

Keeping your children prisoner which they have said there are many cases that I've even heard of

Where overly sheltered children can rebel and then run away from

Anything connected with Christianity completely.

But then obviously there are a lot of parents as you were already talking about who are too lax With these kind of

things.

What is your personal advice about that?

Well The Bible says to train up a child in the way they should go and when they get old they will

not depart from it.

I think it's important that we build that foundation in those children when they're young and if we're building the proper foundation.

And if we're covering them in prayer and we're not smothering them They will grow up to

make proper decisions now.

That's not always going to happen because I know that my parents were praying for me and They certainly when

I started to get involved in secular music.

Were not very happy with that though.

They allowed me to do it.

My mother always said, you know, we we got you involved in music because we wanted you to play in the church

but they allowed me to Walk my own path to make my own mistakes.

They didn't necessarily always pick me up when I fell.

But they prayed me through it.

Now as far as getting your children involved in secular events I have seen again as a pastor of a

church the fact that when parents are very liberal with their children they end up with

liberal children.

And The kids when they start getting older and getting more and more involved in the world

tend to go the way of the world.

Whereas when they do have that basic training that foundational training, they will eventually come back.

But the kids who do not have that foundation that solid foundation in Jesus Christ Will tend

to follow the ways of the world.

I.

Am NOT somebody that in any way shape or form believes in the

prohibition of Prescription drugs that

I know that there are some Not only Christians But obviously sex and cults

that say that a Christian should never use any kind of a pharmaceutical product at all.

I don't agree with that at all.

But isn't there something that Christians even have to be very

cautious about when it comes to getting prescription drugs because they

unfortunately Have people have been over medicated or and things have been too

freely and quickly In an haphazard way it seems prescribed to people.

You wonder sometimes what goes through the minds of some of these trained physicians who are writing out

prescriptions.

The people that they know have addiction problems.

I've personally witnessed that kind of a thing where drug addicts continually just return to the same

physician that they know is going to describe things for them, but but These kind of

things can start out very innocently.

When I was in an alcohol rehab, I shouldn't say alcohol was drug and alcohol rehab ministry

for my own Sin of addiction to alcohol.

I was only one of I think three people there That specifically

had a problem with alcohol.

Everybody else there was primarily there for Oxycontin addiction

and after that it would have been a heroin and Perhaps

Cocaine or something of that nature, but definitely oxycontin seemed to be

the the primary drug of Those men that were in this facility

and some of them were there because they started out with an injury That

eventually it became an addiction to the painkiller if you could just talk a bit about that.

Well again from experience I have a very good friend that has had chronic pain

and was given oxycontin and he

He was doing things that were very irrational.

Seeing things seeing people come through walls.

You don't think of those things and the doctor gave him that prescription in good faith to help

him.

But he was in so much pain I think he was taking more than what he should have been taking and eventually ended up in

the hospital and Praise God that he was able to say, okay,

that's it.

I'm done with that.

By the strength and power that he has in his faith.

He was able to stand up against that but there are a lot of people in the world today that are addicted to

Prescription drugs may be given in good faith.

Maybe not.

Not everybody is pure and lily -white.

Not all doctors are really Withholding or upholding the hypocritical author there.

They're out there trying to make money, you know.

And the drug companies encourage that unfortunately and I did hear very recently on a radio interview that our

government is Really pushing the drug companies to find pain relief.

That is non -habit forming.

Hmm that's great.

But in the meantime, there's a lot of people that are being addicted to prescription drugs.

Hmm, so I guess.

One of the things that I could think of and perhaps you could add your own advice is that

Those who are close to anyone taking These prescription drugs for the right reason

they have to have the guts and the boldness to tell that person.

Hey, I think that you're overdoing this or you are overdoing this.

Don't you.

Don't you think that you have to have the boldness to be in some senses?

You have to be like a watchdog.

When it comes to those you love yes, most certainly.

And and if you've got a family that is.

Got a good solid foundation.

It's a family that's in unity and you've got one person that is not in unity and they are involved in

drugs.

The family really should set up some kind of an intervention for them in love.

Trying to help them trying to get them the help they need now.

Like if it's an adult you're not going to be able to force them.

But once again if it's reinforced with prayer if it's reinforced with love if the family cares

and is not enabling that person.

Often they'll find success.

Now.

I don't want to turn this into a political discussion necessarily.

But just because of it our discussion did involve your Legal problems with being a drug

dealer and so on.

I have Had people on both sides of the fence on this program

during political discussions on whether or not

Making a Drug illegal is really helping the society.

Because of the fact that even when Alcohol during the days of prohibition was made

illegal.

It actually gave birth to organized crime and so on.

What are your views about whether or not this is the role of the government

to be trying to protect us through

Incarceration or threat of incarceration.

Prevent us from making our own stupid mistakes and decisions, even if they're dangerous.

I mean there are people who think that even though they may be very opposed to

Illegal drug use and view it as sin and even any kind of recreational drug

use They still say that the government shouldn't be sticking their fingers in that area.

What is your opinion on that?

Let me first say I'm sure you're familiar with the phrase don't argue politics or religion.

I don't argue politics period.

Mm -hmm, but I can say this.

Apparently the government has been whether a government has been doing this for many many years

and I don't see much success there with that said.

Had it not been for me going to prison.

I may not be where I am here today.

Yeah, praise God for that.

And.

This is a I think that it give this gives parents and even

Those who are facing incarceration hope that this need not be the

end of the world.

When someone you love or even if you are facing a prison sentence

if you are Bowing your knee to the Lord and crying out to him

Realizing that you have gone too far with

trying to just follow your own pleasures and Not being

concerned about obedience to God this could be the

beginning of the most glorious and Beneficial chapter in your life and

or the life of your child.

The Isn't this a good word of hope for those listening who

know that their children may be on trial right now Facing a prison sentence

and so on that this needs not be the end of the world for them.

There are so many Christian ministers that are operating within prison walls

today that a lot of men and women come to

Saving grace of Christ through prison ministry.

I Personally at Glenvale have an associate pastor who is in Perry County and

Cumberland County prison on a regular basis.

We have a gentleman in the congregation that is in Perry County prison every week.

There are ministers all over this nation and probably in other parts of the world that are in prisons

and they are helping people to be set free and.

So.

There is hope there there is.

Prison is can be a catalyst.

It was for me.

It has been for many many other men and women though.

You despair over the fact that your child may be going into prison but listen.

Pray for them because there is hope that they will find deliverance while they're in that prison.

Amen.

And shouldn't we who are on the outside of those prison walls be more

concerned and more compassionate About those who are living behind

bars that we have to.

Especially we have to make sure our churches have some kind of a ministry that reaches out to

these individuals.

This is.

This goes all back to a Pharisaic attitude that many Christians can develop.

Let them rot there.

They deserve it.

Well, perhaps they do.

In fact most of the time they do deserve it.

But does that mean that we are to turn their backs on them and not give them the

hope of eternal life?

You know, there there is no such thing as a perfect church.

There is no such thing as a perfect Christian.

People can be judgmental.

I look at myself.

I look at my own life.

I look at my testimony when I was first licensed by the churches of

God.

I Held there.

I gave them a biographical sketch of who I was and what God has done in my life.

And.

A leader from one of the other churches of God said to me, you know what?

I don't know why that church would have hired you.

We would never have somebody like you in our church.

Wow.

But they were speaking about your past speaking about my past.

Yes, and I guess they would never have allowed the Apostle Paul in their church.

Who?

Rounded up men and women for executions because they were Christians.

That is that's a pretty sad state of of thinking.

This all goes back to the fact that we are Sinners who rely

solely upon the mercy and grace of Christ for our salvation.

And We have to always remind ourselves whenever we start to think too highly

of ourselves.

And Start to think too lowly of those around us that if it were not for grace

We would be in the same hell with Hitler that we innately have nothing that makes us

Attractive or beautiful or loving or desirable to God.

He has loved us in spite of our unloveliness and our evil and

our being deserving only of his wrath.

And I just praise God that he in his grace and kindness and mercy looked

down upon me and treated me and still does treat me not according to what I deserve.

And He blesses me not only with eternal life, but even

a multitude of blessings every single day that I I Wake up to an experience

including the very breaths.

I take in the beating of my heart.

And and I just praise God for his his Mercy and

grace because I know that I only deserve an eternity of punishment.

For what I have done and think.

And and The best thing that I could ever offer him amongst

my Record of good deeds would only cast me into hell if I was holding on to it

as a badge of honor on Judgment Day.

And I'd like you.

And About a five minute time period if you could just close this

program with what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today.

That which you most want them to leave the program echoing in their minds and hearts.

Well to paraphrase Ephesians 2 8 and 9 where it is by grace We are saved

through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

It is by God's grace and his grace only when we place our faith in Jesus as the

Savior and the Lord of our lives.

It is not by works because if we try to work our way into heaven we can boast about

it and The Word of God says that we as Christians and listen to me this.

I'm speaking to you who is or you who are Christians.

We are known by our love.

I am constantly telling our Congregation we cannot stand in judgment of anybody else.

We cannot condemn other people.

We have to have compassion we have to have love we have to reach out to the lost.

We have to be there praying for the lost.

We need to do all that we can to reach a lost and dying world because Christ is coming back.

I Don't know when he's coming back, but I know that he's coming back and as a church We need to be a place where we where

people can come and they can feel safe and they can Unburden themselves and we can

as a congregation lift them up and as Christians, that's our job.

Our job is to lead others to the hope that we have in the Lord Jesus Christ and folks.

Once again, if you have family members or friends that are caught in addictions number one pray for them

pray without ceasing pray.

That God will reach them somehow that he will put somebody in their path or something in their path.

Even if it's prison that will deliver them from the drugs and alcohol and do not enable

them.

Do all that you can to Stop their actions in love

in prayer and You will see Change in the lives of those people.

You will see a change in your own life if you were seeking first the kingdom of God and his

righteousness if you were seeking to establish relationship with those

around you and Loving them as God loves us.

You will have a life that is fulfilled.

You will have peace.

You will have joy in the midst of trial even Life is hard.

Our God is good.

He is a good good God and he is always looking out for us.

Lay it all before him.

Trust him you take care of your children your relationships your job your health.

Trust him in every area of your life and Though things may not be perfect.

There is still peace and joy and that relationship when he is first in your life.

You keep your eyes on the prize.

Keep your eyes on Jesus the author and finisher of our faith.

Stay in prayer.

That is the best I can have offer.

Well praise God for that and I just want to remind our listeners that You can

contact the Glenvale Church of God in Marysville, Pennsylvania by going to their

website Glenvale C -o -g .com.

That's G -l -e -n -v as in victory.

A -l -e C -o -g for Church of God calm and The phone number

of the Glenvale Church of God is 7 1 7 9 5 7 45 73

7 1 7 9 5 7 45 73 and you can

also send an email to a pastor Larry Hale at pastor at

Glenvale c o g .com.

That's pastor at Glenvale c o g .com it's been a

real pleasure having you on the program today pastor Larry and I just want to once

again remind our listeners that That you are running out of time to be able to go

to the Ligonier Conference that's this weekend.

The Ligonier conference that features. Dr. R. C. Sproul and other major speakers

titled the dawn of the Reformation in Lancaster, Pennsylvania and if you'd like to register

Please mention iron sharpens iron radio when you do and the number is eight hundred four three five

four three four three Eight hundred four three five four three four three

and you can also go to Ligonier org L -i -g -o -n -i -e -r Org

and click on events at the top of the page Before we sign off.

I want to play a song for you.

This is a song that goes right along with the theme of today's interview.

My dear friend Deborah Antognano, who is a Christian recording artist is a former Jehovah's Witness and

She became set free from the shackles of a

false religion known as the Jehovah's Witnesses the Kingdom Hall and She is a born -again

believer in Christ and on fire for the true gospel and true Christ of the scriptures.

She recorded she wrote and recorded a song called captives be free

and as a former slave to alcoholism I have adopted this as

my personal anthem of Being set free from that addiction.

Although that was not the reason that Deborah Wrote it it was because of her own being

set free and rescued from a cult.

I think that this song will ring true in the hearts of every addict and former addict who

hears it so I hope that you are blessed by this the song as we sign off and Just to

let you know before We play the the song you can go to

matter of the heart net if you'd like more information on receiving this CD or

having Deborah sing at your congregation or other special event matter of the heart

Net and now I'd like you to be blessed by captives be free

by Deborah Antignano.