October 24, 2016 Show with Larry Hale on “From Pushing Death to Preaching Life: Testimony of a Drug Dealer Turned Pastor”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors,

Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, quote, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

Now here's our host Chris Arntzen. Good afternoon

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania and the rest of humanity living on the planet earth who are listening via live streaming.

This is Chris Arntzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron, wishing you all a happy Monday on this 24th day of October 2016.

I'm delighted to have someone in the studio for the very first time today, Pastor Larry Hale.

I met Pastor Hale perhaps over a year ago when I had my first annual

Iron Sharpens Iron pastor's luncheon in Carlisle. It's not the first one that I've had ever, as those of you who remember my old show broadcasting from New York may remember,

I had quite a number of those annual pastor's luncheons, which was actually the brainchild of my late wife going back to the early 2000s perhaps, perhaps even in the late 1990s is when

I first began the pastor's luncheons and after relocating to Carlisle, Pennsylvania, I launched my first one about a year ago and Pastor Larry Hale was in attendance and we struck up an acquaintance which

I'm counting on becoming a strong friendship. He was very graciously, he very graciously invited me to speak at a

Church of God retreat in Newville, Pennsylvania and I found out about his fascinating testimony which we are going to be discussing today,

From Pushing Death to Preaching Life, the testimony of a drug dealer turned pastor and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you into the studio for the very first time,

Pastor Larry Hale of the Glenville Church of God in Marysville, Pennsylvania. Well, thank you,

Chris. I appreciate you inviting me to be here today. And before I even get into your own background, which will be actually the main subject of our program today,

I'd like for you to tell our listeners something about not only the Church of God denomination that you're in because there are a number of them with that name, but also the

Glenvale Church of God specifically in Marysville, Pennsylvania. The Churches of God General Conference is based out of Findlay, Ohio with several hundred churches across the nation and throughout some of the mission fields in the 1040 window.

There are only several hundred because they must all be in this area because I see a lot of Church of God congregations in this area.

Well, they started in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania in the 1800s with John Weinbrenner and John Weinbrenner had been a

Dutch Reformed pastor and had been forced out of the pastorate because of his beliefs in the fact that one had to receive the gift of eternal life through Jesus Christ.

And he started preaching then along the banks of the river in Harrisburg. What denomination drove him out from teaching that?

It was the Dutch Reformed. Okay, that's interesting. I guess maybe you're using a terminology that I'm defining in a different way and wondering why the

Dutch Reformed would have driven him out for that. Well, here's what happened. He started hanging out with the

Methodists. And of course, in those days, they were known as the shouting Methodists and they were a little radical.

As a matter of fact, they had anxious benches in his churches after he developed or after he began to get inside again and get into some of the

Bethels in the area. They actually had anxious benches where people would just wait for the opportunity to fall on their knees before the

Lord and receive his mercy and grace. And so basically, from the descriptions

I've also received from other Church of God pastors is that it is very much like a

Wesleyan Baptist denomination in many respects. Very similar. Right. And so tell us, our listeners, something specifically about the

Glenvale Church of God in Marysville. The Glenvale Church of God originated back in the mid -1800s with some circuit riders.

They eventually established a church in our area, actually in the location that we're in now, and it grew.

And we had a little white building down along the road and the church was in there.

They prospered for many years. A lot of people got saved there. Now, Llewellyn and I ended up there just about 11 years ago.

The church had gone through some turmoil. They were a congregation of about 80 people, and the

Lord led us there, even though I've got to say we really had no desire to pastor a church. We were on the road as evangelists and loved what we were doing.

Literally saw thousands of people come to Christ over the years that we were on the road and had no desire whatsoever to pastor a church.

But God called us there. He made the calling so distinct that we knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that that's where we needed to be.

And He put everything into place to the most minute detail as far as providing for us, providing a way for us to transition into that ministry.

And again, we've been there almost 11 years. And tell us about the beautiful campground where I spoke at your invitation on the actual biblical text for Iron Sharpens Iron.

It was very nice to be speaking to a group at a retreat for those 50 and older.

And I'm not even going to attempt to pronounce the name of the camp, but I know it's based on an acronym.

Yes. Right. And if you could tell us about that. It is Camp Euligia Youth Living Jesus Way, also known as Dublin Gap Center.

Dublin Gap Center not only serves the Eastern Regional Conference of the Churches of God, but it also serves a lot of other denominations and even has secular groups coming for events up there for retreats.

Great, great campground. We had a couple of thousand children there over the summer for Camp Euligia.

And we just see a lot of children get saved there. Amazing, wonderful, marvelous ministry.

And it is really a beautiful place if anybody listening wants to have a retreat or conference of some kind in the

Cumberland County area. Newville is not far from where I'm sitting.

It's about a half hour away. And it's a really breathtaking area and a very wooded rural area.

And perhaps if anybody of you would like to contact Pastor Larry Hale, you could go to his website,

GlenvaleCOG, which stands for GlenvaleChurchofGod .com, and you can ask him about that later.

Glenvale, G -L -E -N -V -A -L -E -C -O -G .com.

Well, now I want to get more of your background before we even get into something that we've already gave away to our listeners, the fact that this is about the testimony of a drug dealer turned pastor, which is you.

But if you could tell us something about your childhood, the religious atmosphere, if any, of your childhood, your upbringing, and how you came to unfortunately dabble and then eventually earned a living as somebody who was dealing drugs.

I grew up in a Christian environment. My parents were both Christians, and my father was blind.

And to earn money to support the family, he actually played drums in a band.

Was he blind from birth? Yeah, no. He was blinded at the age of six while playing with some homemade fireworks.

Wow. And he was blind when I came into the world. And actually, that's something

I prayed for for many, many years, even during those years when I had strayed from my beliefs and was so involved in drugs and, of course, dealing drugs.

And God eventually answered that prayer. There became technology available that allowed his corneas to be transplanted.

And when he was around 50 years old, he was able to, for the first time in his life, drive a car, which was a goal for him.

Wow. So he is a sighted person. He was a sighted person from that time on, yes.

Wow. Praise God for that. And was your mom sighted, or was she also a blind person?

My mother was sighted. She was the major breadwinner for the household. When I was young, she was a waitress, and then she eventually went to work for the state of Pennsylvania.

So what were the things going on in your life that made you say, you know, this

Christian life is not really what I really want to experience right now, and you began to drift away?

You know, I've got to say, I never had that defining moment. All of my life, as far back as I can remember,

I had a desire to be a rock star. As I would listen on the radio or watch on television and see these musicians and having my father as a musician,

I desired to be a drummer like him. I still want to be a rock star, even though I don't play any musical instrument.

I'm just kidding. Oddly enough, my father would not allow me to play the drums.

He said it was too much equipment to carry. Well, I had nothing but drums, and there was an old reed organ in the house, one of the old pump organs, and the bellows were out of it.

So I, being the ingenious fellow I am, cut some slats to put there to seal that area where the air flows with just a hole in the middle big enough for a vacuum cleaner.

And I was able to put the vacuum cleaner in there, and there was enough air volume created that I could actually sit and play with that little organ.

And then when I was about 13 years old, my mom and dad surprised me with a Con Caprice organ and started lessons in those days.

And so, where were you when you actually reached a place where you were dabbling in the dark side?

I mean, not all those involved in drug dealing actually take those drugs, but perhaps you did.

I'm not sure what was the specific incident in your life. Well, years down the road,

I was playing in Johnstown, Pennsylvania. And I don't recall why, but I was extremely tired at the time that we were to go on stage.

And so, one of the fellows in the band said to me, listen, I've got this little pill. It's an over -the -counter drug, but it'll give you the energy to get through the night.

And I took one of those little over -the -counter pills and ended up staying up all night long.

Well, the next time I felt that I was a little tired, I took another one. Eventually, believe it or not, that led to other drugs.

And so, how did that escalate? Were you taking cocaine?

Or what were the specific drugs, if you don't mind telling our listeners about that? Well, cocaine was my drug of choice.

But before I even got involved with cocaine, we did a lot of marijuana, a lot of alcohol.

And I think I probably was doing both of those things when somebody introduced me to cocaine. And again, cocaine became the drug of my choice.

I just was constantly craving that high from the cocaine.

And when did you have this thought occur to you that, hey, I can make a good living selling this stuff?

Well, I had a brother -in -law at that time who was a cocaine dealer. And I was doing so much cocaine that I needed some way to produce revenue to buy more cocaine.

And I went to him and he said, no, I will not do that. I will not allow you to do that.

So, I went around him. I went to one of the fellows that was buying drugs from him that was selling and got my drugs from his friend.

So, he had enough of a godly conscience, if you will, or a compassion for you or a concern for your life that he realized,

I do not want... Did you say this was your uncle? Brother -in -law.

Brother -in -law. I don't want my brother -in -law to be involved in the same kind of dangerous and perhaps wicked lifestyle.

Well, he had already been to prison a couple of times. And by the time

I got busted, the government of the United States was after him for millions of dollars in back taxes.

And he eventually went to a federal prison. I did not.

That's a story in itself. And so, when you started stealing drugs, did it start as a very, very small thing that escalated into something very large?

Well, as far as the cocaine went, since my brother -in -law was a cocaine dealer and there was always a lot of cocaine around, it didn't start as something small because I had plenty of it available to me.

But then when we got to partying with friends and had other groups come in and we partied with them, we just needed more.

And so, it got to the point where I just couldn't get enough from him. So, this really started fairly large and just continued to escalate.

Yes. I mean, could you tell us approximately how much you were making doing this? Well, to be honest,

I didn't make a lot of money. However, I remember one time having $50 ,000 in cash in the house and I was so paranoid that I was going to get busted that I hid it in the bottom of my garbage can.

And it was a constant fight with myself because, first of all, I knew

I shouldn't have been doing what I was doing. Secondly, I enjoyed it so much. But thirdly, there was paranoia there.

And the paranoia didn't come from the drugs. The paranoia came from the fact that I knew that I shouldn't be doing what

I was doing. And eventually, I would end up paying the price for it. Now, other than the money, what were you enjoying about it?

Did you actually enjoy taking the risks and everything that might be involved in that kind of a lifestyle?

Well, I must say there was certainly a sense of,

I don't know what terminology to use here. There was a sense of euphoria. Yeah, like an adrenaline rush.

An adrenaline rush, yes. There was that constant sense of trying to be smarter than those who would be after me if they found out that I was dealing drugs.

There was a game involved there, too. Yeah, no doubt about it. And did you consider yourself a

Christian at this point? Were you looking at yourself as somebody who was in rebellion?

Or were you looking at yourself as somebody who was totally outside of the faith? Or were you justifying what you were doing?

A lot of Christians justify sin for a number of reasons. I actually asked

Christ to be my savior when I was about 13 years old. I was at a Youth for Christ skating party in McKinnicksburg, Pennsylvania.

And there was an evangelist there, and he was preaching about hell. And I didn't want that.

And so I went forward at that meeting. And frankly, for a while, I was really on fire for the

Lord. I was reading everything I could. I went to various conferences.

But eventually, the draw of this desire for fame just overcame.

I think I'm just like everybody else. You know, at first you're on fire, and then things just kind of go away.

And so eventually, the slide went the other direction.

And I began to really want the popularity, the money that would be involved with stardom, all of those things.

It just became more of a draw to me than my relationship with Christ. And so when this was going on in your life, was there any sense that you are rebelling against God?

Or was it more that I am doing something illegal and could pay a heavy price legally for this?

I was more concerned with the government than I was with God. I was one of those people who was rationalizing the things that I was doing.

And so tell us about how unfortunately, well, actually, fortunately, I shouldn't say unfortunately, fortunately, although it didn't seem like it was a fortunate thing at the time for you, you got caught and arrested.

Tell us about that. Well, a lot of things were happening at that point. I was dealing so many drugs at that time that we actually had some fellows coming from Brazil that would bring the drugs in.

And I would get with them on occasion and help them to find some musical equipment that they could take back.

I struck up a friendship with them. I had even more drugs at that time. And I was starting to make some money.

I had a big screen TV when they were still very expensive. I had a Cadillac. I had an Audi. I had a

Mercedes. I had all of these material things. The band was getting more and more popular.

As we got more and more popular, I think we drew more and more attention. And we eventually found out that there was a federal grand jury investigation going on into our drug dealing.

And when you just mentioned the flat screen TV, a lot of our younger listeners who grew up with flat screen

TVs, they might be shocked to know that around the year 2000 when

I first had purchased a home in New York and I had the architect make arrangements so that I would be able to have a flat screen

TV on every wall, eventually he said, Are you crazy? These things cost $10 ,000 a piece, minimally.

And I said, Well, one day they're going to go down. And sure enough, they did, obviously.

And this was in the 1980s. They were very expensive. So I had all of these material possessions.

I had the popularity. We actually, when I did get busted or when I went to, and I'll explain that in a minute, when

I went to the federal marshals and gave myself up, we were at the process at that point of negotiating with Geffen Records to sign a contract.

Wow. What was the name of the group? The name of the group at that point was The Edge. The Edge. Yeah. Now for many years, it was a group called

Moon. And Moon in the central Pennsylvania area was voted the most popular band back in those days.

And we literally played for crowds of tens of thousands of people.

And just out of curiosity, where are the former members of Edge or Moon today?

Most of them are born again Christians. Wow. One of them, the fellow who was the lead singer about a week before his death, and he died at the age of 48, had sent me a message on my guestbook telling me that he is so thankful for me and for leading him to a relationship with the

Lord. And then, as I said, just a couple of weeks later, he was watching television.

He got up, he went over, closed his curtains and fell over dead. What was a stroke or heart attack? It's a heart attack.

Wow. Probably the result of all of the cocaine that we used to do. Yeah. And so tell us about exactly that day when you were arrested and what was going through your mind.

Well, again, I had been told by my brother -in -law that there was a grand jury investigation going on.

I found out later we had gone to buy another car.

We had gone to buy a BMW, and we were at the car dealership. And as we were standing there at the car dealership, my brother -in -law looked at me, and he said, shh, just put his finger up.

He didn't want me to say anything more, and I didn't know what was up. He walked over to the car dealer and lifted the man's shirt, and there was a wire tap on him.

Wow. Well, I knew at that point that I was in trouble. Hmm. So we left there, and he retained an attorney.

And the attorney, knowing that I had never been in trouble before, suggested that I go to the federal marshals and give myself up.

And I did that. And I didn't have to, as they would say in those days,

I didn't have to narc on anybody because I didn't know a lot about who was dealing the drugs. There was one fellow that I was familiar with, and I know that he had already been in trouble.

So he was already speaking with his attorney. So I went to the federal marshals, and I gave myself up.

And really, for me, I had never been handcuffed, never was handcuffed. Wow. And it was the most amazing event.

As I look back on it now, I can really see God's hand in it. There were a lot of things going on.

First of all, for almost 11 years, I had been estranged from my family because they were all

Christians. And whenever I was around them, the light of Christ would just shine in that darkness in my life, and it truly hurt.

And so I didn't spend much time around my family. When this occurred, I realized that I needed to humble myself and get back to my parents and tell them what was happening.

And I'll never forget that day because I told my mom and dad what was going on, and they looked at me and said, we know, we read it in the paper.

We were just waiting for you to come and tell us. Wow. So they were patiently waiting for me to come and do what they felt was right.

And I did. And after 11 years, I was finally, I could go in front of my parents and I could feel comfortable in being there, even though I knew there was something ahead of me that was not going to be good by any means, that I was going to have to stand before that federal grand jury.

I knew there was going to be a penalty for my sins, and I didn't know what they were, but I felt cleansed at that point.

And even though I had not gone back to Christ and asked him for forgiveness, my parents had forgiven me.

And to me, that was very important. Yeah. By the way, I want to give our listeners our email address.

If you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -S -E -N at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name, your city and state, your country of residence, if you live outside the

USA. And obviously, during a discussion like this, especially if you're asking a question that relates to something close to home, and you're either embarrassed to identify yourself even by first name, or you think it's wisest not to reveal your identity, we accept anonymous questions from our listeners, and we will honor that.

So just send us a question to chrisarnsen at gmail .com. And if you can, we would love to at least have your first name, city and state, and country of residence, if that's okay.

And so what kind of incarceration did you experience after this?

Let me go back a little bit before I get there, actually. Knowing that something was going to occur,

I decided at that point it was probably best to get out of the band. I had went out and tried to find a job, and I found a job working through a temp agency.

And I was still so full of myself, Chris, that when I went in to interview with the temp agency,

I told them where I wanted to work. The woman that I lived with at the time worked for DuPont, and she worked at Berg Electronics in Camp Hill.

And so I went to this agency, and I said, listen, I need a job, and here's where I want to work. If you have a job for me, call me.

And the poor lady in that office looked at me and said, that's not the way it works. I said, listen, if you got a job for me at Berg Electronics, I'll take it.

And I walked out the door. I drove to my home 15 minutes away, and when I got there, the phone was ringing.

And the next day I started at Berg Electronics. And so sometimes being proud doesn't necessarily immediately give you the negative consequences that you deserve.

I worked there probably for several months and really enjoyed working there.

And apparently I was doing a good job. Someone from the human resources department talked with me and said, listen, we're interested in hiring you full time.

And I said, well, you need to know something. You need to know that I am in trouble.

I was doing drugs. I was dealing drugs. I am going to have to go to court. I don't know what's going to happen.

And she, after a moment, looked at me and said, you know, that's okay. We have a drug rehab program.

We'll work with you. The next day I lost my job. Really? So was she being dishonest or what was going on there?

I have no idea. They didn't tell you why they dismissed you? No, because it was a temp.

They could dismiss me without any reason. And so I was gone the next day. I began to look for other jobs through a temp agency.

At that point, I had been knocked down a peg or two. So I said, just put me where you want me. They put me in the

Harrisburg incinerator plant where they literally dry out the defecation that comes in there.

Wow. And I went there for the first day and I had my little brown bag with my lunch in it until I found out that this dried defecation would eventually make its way into the air.

That machine, that furnace would belch and this dry stuff would come all over your skin.

And I said, you know what? I'm not even going to open this bag. I'm leaving now. So I didn't make it a full day there.

I went then to another job working menial labor for this company. And I had a great time there because they were doing the things for the

Pennsylvania Turnpike that show how much you owe and all of that stuff, the machines, and we were testing them.

But we would go out at lunchtime and we would take our bow and arrows with us and we'd shoot off the back of the dock.

And then we'd go to lunch and we'd sit and drink for an hour or two. And then we would work our way back and spend the last hour working.

I loved that job. But I knew that I needed something that was going to be more permanent so that it would look better for me when

I stood before the judge, before the grand jury, I should say. And I kept seeing this ad in the newspaper for a part -time clerk, part -time salesperson at Specialty Bakers in Marysville.

Now, Specialty Bakers at that time was known for Ladyfingers. Ladyfingers is a dessert that they alone in this nation made at least a sponge cake at that time.

And they delivered all over the United States, Canada, and Puerto Rico. And I kept looking at that going and saying, no,

I don't want to do that. If I go to a place like that, I'm going to end up getting fat. But every time

I opened that newspaper, that's the first thing that hit me. And finally I said, and again, I had not reconciled with the

Lord. I said, okay, God, if that's what you want, I'm going to call them. And I called them and they said, okay, well, here's the deal.

We're looking for someone who will be able to work some part -time doing some clerical work.

And we have a subsidiary company that does fundraising. And so we need somebody to sell the fundraising products to the schools and other organizations in the area.

Would you come in for an interview? And I went in and they offered me a job. And I was so bold again that I said, well, listen, that's not enough money.

Here's what I need. And I need a company car. Well, let's pick up our discussion right after the break, right where you left off.

And we're going to be right back after these messages. If you'd like to join us on the air, our email address again is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

chrisarnson at gmail .com. Don't go away. We'll be right back with Pastor Larry Hale.

I'm Chris Arnson, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. And here's one of my favorite guests,

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Iron Criticizing Iron. I think that's what it's called.

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This is Chris Arns, and if you just tuned us in, our guest today is Pastor Larry Hale, the senior pastor of Glenvale Church of God in Marysville, Pennsylvania.

And we're finding out about his fascinating testimony of salvation in Christ Jesus after having been a drug dealer.

And if you'd like to join us on the air, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com. chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Before I return to our discussion, the folks at Ligonier Ministries want to remind you that they are having their

Dawn of the Reformation Bible Conference October 28th through the 29th.

It's this weekend in Lancaster, Pennsylvania. Speakers include Dr. Albert Moeller, the president of the

Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, Kentucky. Stephen Nichols, who is the president of Reformation Bible College in the

Orlando area, which is the Bible college founded by Dr. R .C. Sproul in Ligonier Ministries.

Derek Thomas, who is the senior minister of the historic First Presbyterian Church in Columbia, South Carolina.

He's also a prolific writer and he has also, in addition to the men

I just mentioned, he has been on Iron Sharpens Iron as a guest. And last but not least,

R .C. Sproul himself will be at this conference. He is the founder of Ligonier Ministries, author of numerous books and a world -renowned evangelist,

Bible teacher. And he hosts Renewing Your Mind with R .C. Sproul, which can be heard on radio and television all over the world.

If you'd like more details about this conference, go to Ligonier .org, that's spelled

L -I -G -O -N -I -E -R dot O -R -G, L -I -G -O -N -I -E -R dot

O -R -G and click on events at the top of the page. God willing, I am going to be there and I hope that many of you listening, especially those of you who live near Lancaster, make the effort to be there.

I would love to meet you face -to -face and just please make every effort to be there that you can.

That's Ligonier .org, Ligonier .org for the 2016 Regional Conference, the dawn of the

Reformation, October 28th through the 29th in Lancaster, Pennsylvania. And we are continuing our discussion with Pastor Larry Hale of the

Glenvale Church of God in Marysville, Pennsylvania. And when we left the discussion to go to a station break, you were basically telling us another humorous anecdote about your pride being involved in your selection of getting employment.

You know, I see it now as part of God's plan also preparing me for what he had in store for me.

At any rate, I had told these folks what I wanted and the owner said, well,

I'll get back to you. And once again, I drove to my home, which was not far from there, and it wasn't long after that that I received a phone call and they said, would you come back in?

We want to talk with you again. He said, I'm going to play some tennis. I'll be back in a couple of hours. Meet us at whatever time it was.

And so I went back in and I met with the owner of the company and his wife and the national sales manager of the bakery and they hired me on the spot.

And so how long did you work there? And tell us about the events that led up to you actually paying the price for what you had been doing illegally as a living.

Well, I worked there from 1984 up until 1989.

Again, God's hand was in all of this. I did have to tell them what was happening and they too said, you know what, that's okay.

And the fellow who was really the guy that began

Specialty Bakers, the grandfather of the man that hired me, we affectionately called

Pap after I got to know him. He said to me one day, he said, you know, we're going to work with you.

We're going to do all that we can to help you. And so he began to talk to some people that he knew trying to see what they could do for me.

That year that I started there, I literally had nothing. They brought firewood to my home.

They brought Christmas gifts for my children. It just turned to be such a blessing from God.

And while I was there, I met a fellow by the name of Dale Simmons. Dale was the data manager.

He's the guy that ran the computers there. And well, let me stop right there.

Go back to the court hearing. By the time that I had gone to the federal court, to the grand jury,

I had reconciled with my family. I was working this job. I even married the woman that I was living with at the time because I thought it would look good.

Got my hair cut, you know, did all of these things. And I knew that my mom and dad were praying for me.

And finally the day came that I had to be in court. And I'll never forget that day.

Not because, not only because I had to stand before that federal grand jury, but also because my mom and dad were not there.

And that probably hurt me more than the sentence that I got. But when that sentence came down, the combination of my parents not being there and the sentence, which was two years in a federal penitentiary, when that occurred,

I was really at the lowest point in my life. And I began to really cry out to God because while I was on this work release program, this man by the name of Dale Simmons began to talk to me.

He began to, actually before I even got sentenced, he began to talk to me about the things of the Lord. I'm getting things mixed up here.

So forgive me, it's been a long time. That's all right. I was sentenced to two years in federal penitentiary.

I sat back down and the court continued with the other fellows that were there. And by the time they were done, we were getting ready to go.

And the judge called me back up to the bench and he took away the two -year sentence in a federal penitentiary and gave me six months in a county jail on a work release program.

Now I was still a federal prisoner. I had to pay for the privilege of staying in Dauphin County Prison, but I was able to continue working at Specialty Bakers.

And that just was unheard of. And so I found out later, the reason my mom and dad were not in the courtroom was because they were at home on their knees praying for me.

And I believe God intervened there. My life certainly began to take a different turn.

This fellow, Dale Simmons, kept witnessing to me. I would walk with him every day when I was on that work release program.

And he would tell me more and more about the Lord. And I came to realize that I wasn't really a

Christian. I had just grabbed some fire insurance when I was a teenager. And he made me realize this also, because I was under the impression that God would send me to hell for the things that I did.

And he said, no, that's not true. God will not send you to hell. If you go to hell, it's your own choice, because he offers you that free gift of eternal life.

If you will repent of your sins and ask him to forgive you, he will forgive you. And you become a new creation in Christ.

And I began to go to church. As a matter of fact, as soon as I got off that six months, which, by the way,

I only served about four months of that, the warden came into the prison one day and said, hey, get your stuff, you're out of here, go.

And I just flew out of that place. I went back to work and I was so happy that following Sunday, I went to church.

I went to a little country church, a United Methodist church in the Marysville Valley. And I walked in the doors that Sunday morning, and there was a big banner that said,

God sets a prisoner free. That was in 1985. Every once in a while I get to preach at that church, that banner is still there.

Wow. So I'm assuming that this is a Bible -believing United Methodist congregation. Yes, it is a

Bible -believing Methodist congregation. And I went there for a bit.

And then I ended up going because Dale Simmons, the fellow that was my spiritual father, went to a

Christian and Missionary Alliance church in New Buffalo. He invited me up there one day and I went up there and I really liked the

Christian and Missionary Alliance. I loved the pastor that was there. He was so straightforward yet so loving. And I began to go there.

And eventually one day, I went up to his apartment. He and his wife lived in a townhouse,

I should say, in Duncannon, Pennsylvania. And I spoke with him and I knelt at his couch.

And I received Christ, not only as my Savior, but the Lord of my life. Praise God. Now, obviously, you and I as Christians know that you're getting such an easy sentence and being released so free and so forth.

We're a part of his mercy. But what was the earthly explanation given to you, if any, for that?

Well, the earthly explanation was that, you know, the fellow that was the patriarch of the bakery knew a lot of influential people.

But I know better. I know exactly what it was. And it began a change in my life that has been the most amazing transformation because I just never thought that God would be able to use me the way that he is using me today.

I have spoken to many denominations throughout the

United States of America. I have spoken at conventions and conferences. I spoke at Creation Festival.

I spoke at Vision Festival, which is no longer around, but that was a fairly large festival around the

Williamsport area. And then Luella and I eventually got married.

The woman that I married when I got busted, she ended up leaving me. And so I thought, you know,

I'll never get married again. I'm just going to follow the Lord. And in 1989, the bakery was sold.

And the fellow that hired me, he and I had become best friends over the years. He didn't want anything to do with Christ, by the way.

But he and I then opened a computer business and an internet business in Camp Hill, Pennsylvania, Complete Computer Solutions and Internet Gateway Corporation.

Is it still there? No, no, no, no. We did that for several years and eventually decided to close down the computer business and just do the internet business.

We sold dial -up. You can tell how long ago that was. It was dial -up connections to the internet, but we also sold direct point -to -point

T1s for businesses. And we did website design and all kinds of things in that realm.

And one year, actually, let me say this. I started going to a church in Enola, Pennsylvania.

And the first time I walked in there, I saw Luella, my wife. And I said, hey,

I know her. We used to sing together in chorus in high school. Wow. And I didn't really think much more about that.

But then one day, we were having a hayride. And so I went to her home to pick her up, to take her along with the other folks that were with me.

And she came out with a little bag filled with apples that she had quartered. And all of a sudden,

I just looked at her and went, wow. I had seen her in a different light than I had ever seen her before.

And we just became friends again, or actually friends, because before we had not really been friends.

We had been acquaintances. We were both going to the same church then. And somebody had heard me sing and said, you know, you really ought to sing in church sometime.

Now, I walked in front of that church one Sunday morning to sing, Chris. And again, having sung in front of tens of thousands of people,

I just completely lost it. I went white. I was sweating profusely.

I could barely get through this thing. My knees were shaking. And I thought, I'm never going to do that again.

And then eventually somebody said, well, Luella sings. Why don't you get together with her and sing? And that, once again, was part of God's plan for my life.

I had no desire to get married again. And she had no desire to be married.

She really is an awesome godly woman. I don't want to embarrass her. But when we married, we were 41 years old.

And she was a virgin because she had such an intense commitment to the

Lord. And I'm going to say God used her in a mighty way to bring me to where I am today. To really build a solid foundation for me because I had a woman who knew what she wanted in the

Lord and a woman who stood on the solid ground. And that really helped me develop my foundation.

Little did I know that eventually we would end up singing in venues across the United States that I would be preaching.

And it all started with us going into a couple of local churches. There's a gospel group that is now retired, but it's a group called

The Couriers. Oh, yeah. And a fellow by the name of Phil Enlow walked into the computer shop one day.

And he had a problem. And I began to see what I could do to help him. And we became fast friends.

During that time, they had two events at the Forum in Harrisburg every year.

They had two concerts. And they would bring in the top names, southern gospel groups. Well, this is just prior to us getting married.

He said to me one day, he said, would you and Luella come and sing at one of those concerts? And I'm like, okay.

And we did, and we continued to do that.

We continued to build the friendship with Phil and with his brother Neil and with Dwayne Nicholson.

And eventually, they took us under their wing and just said, here's our database.

Begin to call these churches, tell them we said you're to come in there and sing. And when we started doing that, it was just a few months after that that we literally had to quit our daytime jobs and begin to go out in full -time ministry.

Now, God put that all together. The year that we were married, Mike Vandling, who owned

Specialty Bakers, got married that same year also. We got married in June. He got married in October.

And while we were away on, we went with them on their honeymoon, at least for the first couple of weeks.

And while we were down in Florida, he came to know Christ as his Savior.

Oh, praise God. So, amazingly. And he has served the Lord now for years and has still a great desire to serve the

Lord in capacity of a keyboard player for worship groups. So, God changed both of our lives through Specialty Bakers and the relationship that we developed there.

Did he bake your wedding cake? No, they did not. Because if I was him, I would have, as a practical joke, put a hacksaw in it.

Let's see. I know that we had an anonymous listener.

The anonymous listener, let's see. Here it is. Wants to know, do you believe in tough love when it comes to children with drug problems and kicking them out of the house if necessary, if they are unrepentant?

Well, this is going forward many, many years. But my son began to walk that same track.

I don't know if he dealt drugs, but he certainly did a lot of alcohol. And I know that he was doing some drugs and he had been living with us.

And we had to invoke a little bit of tough love.

And I said, son, we would love to have you here. But here are the rules. And if you cannot follow these rules, then you're going to have to leave.

And we did have to kick him out. He then later married a beautiful woman, has three wonderful daughters.

He was at one point one of the trustees at our church. They are all born again. The girls are all baptized.

They're not currently attending a church regularly because they had moved to Dillsburg. And they got involved in the church there and something happened.

But they still follow the Lord. They still serve the Lord. And had it not been for that tough love,

I'm not sure that that wouldn't have happened or would have happened. Yeah, people might view that. A parent kicking a child out of the house or anything like that, they may view that as a very harsh and unloving thing.

But sometimes when you're rescuing somebody from almost certain death or you're rescuing them or attempting to rescue them from some horrific consequences in their lives, then that is the best way to demonstrate love is to be harsh or to be strict or to have a conviction where you're more concerned over your child's life and eternity than you are over their comfort or feelings.

As a pastor, I have had a lot of experience with families that have children that are on drugs or alcohol and invariably, it's always worse when the parents enable their children.

When they bail them out. Listen, my mom and dad, when I was in my 30s, I had a credit card and I would rack that thing up and I would max it out and they would pay it off.

And finally, they said to me one day, son, that's it. We love you, but we are not going to bail you out again.

You're going to have to live your own life. You're going to have to make your own way. And that's essentially what I did with him. And when that happened,

I realized that I needed to change my life. Yeah, even church discipline, if it's done appropriately and done with the motivation of love and restoration by a church that is faithful to Christ in the scriptures, church discipline is intended to be an act of love.

I am somebody who has been under church discipline myself in the past when

I fell back tragically into alcohol abuse at very dangerous levels of alcohol abuse.

And the church put me under church discipline, under discipline. And if they had not done that,

I don't know for certain if I'd be sitting here alive today. And I was completely restored.

In fact, my pastor, my former pastor, has been a guest on this program, and we discussed the need in the church today for church discipline because it's a very biblical thing.

And we were even talking a bit about my own discipline. I don't know if that's the first time in radio history that has ever happened where a pastor and his former congregant were discussing as the theme church discipline after that pastor had disciplined that talk show host.

I don't know if that's ever happened before, but I thought it was a great interview myself.

And I think that that is one of the things that is tragically, seemingly most absent in the modern evangelical church or church at large is because people view that as judgmental.

They judge it as just harsh and unloving, but it's a biblical concept. It's clearly in the scriptures.

Certainly it is God's plan of restoration, and it has to be done in love. The amazing thing is when

God transformed me, when he made me to be able to serve him, he changed my heart because for so many years, life was all about me.

But when he called me to Glenvale Church of God, that's when the change occurred. He gave me a supernatural love for the people there.

I just love the congregation there. And it's hard to discipline somebody.

You never want to do that, but you love them so much you have to do that.

But you're not going to let your child play in traffic. You're not going to let your child stick a fork in an electric outlet or do any other kind of dangerous thing.

So therefore, why would you want anyone else you love to be doing something that not only endangers their physical well -being, but also endangers their eternity?

And so therefore, people have to recognize that when done appropriately, things that appear to be harsh on their surface can be the height of love, especially because it's not a thing that people are comfortable doing.

And people are very often more concerned about the feelings of others than they are about their souls.

And they're also more concerned, very often sadly, about winning approval and having friends and supporters in large congregations than they are about the eternal, never -dying souls of those hearing them speak.

But we're going to another break right now. And by the way, the anonymous listener who wrote in, you indicated that you are a first -time listener.

You are eligible now to have a free New American Standard Bible.

This is a beautiful edition of the NASB that has an engraved or embossed,

I should say, an embossed cross on the cover. This is compliments of the publishers of the

NASB who have been sponsoring this program since our inception in 2006. All we need from you is your full name and mailing address, and I obviously assure you that I'm not going to make your identity public since you requested to be anonymous.

So just, if you'd like that Bible, absolutely free of charge, just submit to us your name and mailing address.

And that will be shipped to you, by the way, by our friends at Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service in Carlisle, Pennsylvania, who are sponsors of this broadcast.

CVBBS .com, CV for Cumberland Valley, BBS for BibleBookService .com.

And we thank Todd and Patty Jennings for being faithful supporters of Iron Sharpens Iron.

So if you'd like to join us as well with questions of your own, chrisarnson at gmail .com. chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Don't go away. We'll be right back after these messages. I think we need to talk a little bit more.

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Call Lindbrook Baptist at 516 -599 -9402. That's 516 -599 -9402 or visit lindbrookbaptist .org.

That's lindbrookbaptist .org. Welcome back. This is Chris Arnzen. If you just tuned us in, our guest today for the full two hours with about an hour to go is

Larry Hale, Senior Pastor of Glenvale Church of God in Marysville, Pennsylvania. And we are discussing from pushing death to preaching life, the testimony of a drug dealer turned pastor.

If you'd like to join us on the air, our email address is chrisarnzen at gmail .com. chrisarnzen at gmail .com.

And we do have a listener in White Plains, New York, RJ. But before I go to RJ, I just want to remind you about the

Ligonier Conference that is being held this weekend. Ligonier Ministries, as you probably, most of you know, is a wonderful ministry, teaching ministry of Dr.

R .C. Sproul. They are having their 2016 Regional Conference this

Saturday and Sunday, October 28th and 29th in Lancaster, Pennsylvania.

And the speaker lineup is really wonderful. Al Mohler from the

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Dr. Tarek Thomas, who is the Pastor of Historic First Presbyterian Church in Columbia, South Carolina, and the author of a number of books, and a well -known, world -renowned conference speaker.

And finally, Dr. R .C. Sproul himself will be there on the dawn of the

Reformation. And in addition to going to Ligonier .org to register, L -I -G -O -N -I -E -R .org,

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Don't forget to mention that whenever you contact anybody sponsoring this program, because it only helps us to get further support in the future from them.

Something that we urgently need. RJ in White Plains, New York wants to know what your opinion is of AA and NA.

Obviously, they do work. I think that a

Christian -based program is more effective. But for some people,

AA or NA, they do work. Now, I encourage folks, especially parents, if there are parents of alcoholics or drug addicts listening, or if you're a drug addict or alcoholic, there are some fine ministries that I'm aware of that have really been helpful, have a great rate of success.

And one of those is Teen Challenge. Teen Challenge is all over the nation and different parts of the world.

But they do a wonderful job. We're in little rural Perry County.

Perry County, Pennsylvania, folks, is so small that the biggest city is Walmart. We just got our first traffic signal a few years ago.

And believe it or not, in that rural area, drugs are a real problem, especially heroin.

And it bothers me when I see parents, listen to me, parents, when I see parents that are enabling their children, that they're not giving them tough love.

They're allowing them to continue to do what they're doing. The same thing over and over again by bailing them out every time they get in trouble, by taking care of their fines when they get fines, or paying off the restitution when they get caught for stealing, or whatever it may be.

And the kids can continue down that same track. And you know, you cannot walk down that same road every day and expect to get to a different place.

There has to be a change somewhere. And that tough love can be the catalyst for that change.

And if you do have influence over them, get them into a program like Teen Challenge.

We recently had someone graduate from Teen Challenge. It is now going to school, studying to be a counselor to help others.

We have a fellow that's in Teen Challenge right now, and it was a heroin addict. He literally died three times within 30 days and was revived.

And he had to go to court. And I said, here's what I want you to do. I'm going to put you in contact with Teen Challenge.

I want you to take the time to fill out their paperwork. And when you go before that judge, you tell them that you can possibly get into this program.

And I bet the judge will let you off of that sentence as long as you go through that program and stay there.

And he is in that program now, and he is so full of the joy of the Lord, and he is free from the drugs, and he will leave that place clean and productive.

Amen. Yes, I happen to actually know Pastor Jimmy Jack. That's his real name.

And he is the founder of the Long Island Teen Challenge in Suffolk County, Long Island, New York, and doing a fine work there.

I also know a colleague of his, Bobby Lloyd, who's a dear friend of mine. Also someone who was a drug dealer in the 1970s, arrested, spent time in prison, and was saved by the grace of Christ in prison and is now a co -pastor of the

Freedom Chapel Assembly of God in Amityville, Long Island. And I have to try to get

Bobby as a guest on this program because he is a wonderful brother who's got phenomenal, amazing testimony.

In fact, he survived. He's one of the very few people that survived pancreatic cancer because that is almost certainly a death sentence.

My mother passed away from pancreatic cancer. Thankfully, she was a believer and is in glory with Christ for eternity.

But Bobby was one of those rare individuals whose doctor had a hunch during a routine test that led him to getting the proper

CAT scans and everything else he needed to detect this when it was a very early stage cancer.

And he was rescued from that. But that's just my way of just giving another plug for Bobby Lloyd who also runs

Long Island Citizens for Community Values in Long Island, New York. And they've shut down a number of strip clubs and adult bookstores, adult video stores, pornographic movie theaters, and things like that through their community work there.

But to give my own two cents about AA and NA, I know that they can technically work and especially may prove to be initially valuable as an emergency kind of a situation.

And sometimes it's a legally required thing depending on a person's legal circumstances.

But I can say that I think that there is also a danger that is involved in those groups that do not have

Christ as their center because they do teach a false god. When you tell someone that your higher power can be anything or anyone that you want it to be, that is a false gospel, really.

Yes. They would never call it a gospel, but it is their message of hope. And they'll even use terms like salvation and redemption on occasion.

They'll use religious terms. And they even involve prayer, I should say.

They will have the closing of their meetings with the Lord's prayer.

And that is another thing that is in question on whether a Christian should be involved in joining with people who are not believers as they lead you in prayer and so on.

So there's a lot of things. And last but not least, I think that if your wife or your sister or your daughter are addicts, those can be very dangerous places for them because they're going to be sitting in the same rooms with sometimes convicted criminals who are there because they're legally required to be there.

And I've heard a number of tragic stories about women being assaulted and even murdered.

I'm not saying that's a rampant thing going on, especially the murder aspect, but those can be dangerous places for young ladies to be at.

I'm sure men can have their own experience with danger, but especially, obviously, you'd want to be very cautious about the women in your life being a part of those organizations.

But someday soon, I'm hoping to have like a full one or two hour broadcast on that specific subject.

And I know that I offend even some of my Christian brethren when I am critical of AA and NA because some of my

Christian brethren are actively involved in them, those organizations. But having said that,

I think that truth matters, doctrine matters, and telling people that you could believe in any

God that you want to invent in your mind is a dangerous thing.

And I know you already said something about it, but if you could, is there anything more that you wanted to say specifically about the danger of coddling children and others you love, it might even be your spouse, it might be somebody else that you love, where you're not telling them, look, either you repent of this or I am going to have to disassociate you from my life, or you're giving them some kind of ultimatum where they have to take responsibility for their actions and that you are not going to cater to their whims that are only endangering not only their own lives and their eternity, but those perhaps around them.

Well, here's the thing. Sometimes people have got to hit rock bottom before they look up.

In my case, my parents did not ostracize me. I was already out of the house.

I was already married. They would have been happy to have me in their lives, but I was not in their lives because as I said earlier,

I couldn't stand to be around them because of their beliefs in the Lord. But here's the thing, when parents allow their children or whether it be spouses, whatever it is, if they allow them to continue in that addiction without interceding some way, let me say this,

I end up having to do funerals. There are too many teenagers.

As I said, in our rural area, I do too many funerals for kids especially that are on heroin.

And so we have to do something. I also want to mention this. We're so blessed at Glenvale Church of God.

God has called us. Our mission is to be a hospital on the hill. And we have been blessed over the years,

God putting people into positions there to be able to help people in drug abuse or alcohol abuse or families in crisis or women in crisis.

One of our pastors, Pastor Vicki, who is in the hospital right now, she's going to have a stent put in her heart tomorrow.

Think about her, pray for her. She deals with women in crisis. She's very heavily involved in New Life for Girls, which is a ministry to girls who are going through crisis, whether it be drugs or alcohol or abuse or whatever it may be.

You just can't let them go. You know, children die every day from overdoses of drugs or overdoses of alcohol.

Sometimes you can reach them. Sometimes you can't. But enabling them makes it even worse for you because you will come to that point in your life where you realize that had you stopped them, had you done something dramatic or drastic to help them, they may not be in a grave.

Yes. And I happen to know of circumstances where there were young men and young women who have overdosed on a number of occasions and the

Lord showed mercy to them over and over again, rescued them from certain death.

And then after a period of sobriety, they go right back. It's just a tragic thing about these types of sins that have physical addictions attached to them.

You know, we've been talking about being strong and tough and being not lacking in discipline when it comes to those who are under our care, like children or perhaps even in a church.

But isn't there also something that we have to keep in mind simultaneously on the other end of the spectrum?

We can never look at people as totally lost causes. We can give up on them and we can become in a true sense of the term judgmental, not like the world or even many

Christians use that term whenever you bring up a criticism or seek to enact discipline on somebody in sin.

They'll say you're judgmental or if you disagree with some serious theological errors that they have, they'll say you're judgmental.

But Christ told us to judge rightly. He didn't say that we're not to judge at all. In fact, we all do.

The very moment that somebody says you're judgmental, that's a judgment that they're making. But don't we have to though be very cautious not to even unconsciously begin to become pharisaic and we can look at people as they are the wretched, unsavable wastes of our time and effort and our love and our compassion.

We should be spending our efforts on other people and we could give up on people. Isn't that a danger?

That is definitely a danger. And I praise God once again. My parents did not know how deeply

I was involved in the things that I was involved in. They simply knew that I was not where I should be.

They knew that I was the only one of their children that was not following the Lord. And here's what they did. They prayed.

My mother would get up at two and three o 'clock in the morning and she would pray for her son and she would claim me for the kingdom of heaven even though she didn't know what was going on.

She knew that there was something wrong. You know, the effectual fervent prayers of a righteous mama availeth much.

And so my mother, my sisters, my father, they all prayed for me constantly. And I think we need to remember that even when it comes to drugs and alcohol, we're not necessarily fighting things in a spiritual, in a physical realm, but rather we're still fighting the enemy of our souls.

And Satan is out there and he is actively pursuing those people that he can pursue.

He is trying to get them hooked on drugs or whatever it may be to keep their eyes off of the Lord. So the most important thing that we can do for our children, our grandchildren, our husband, our wife, whatever it may be, is be in prayer constantly.

James chapter four, seven says that if we submit ourselves therefore unto God, we can resist the devil and he will flee.

We have that power and authority in the name of Jesus. And we need to do that. We need to be on our prayer bones.

That is the most valuable weapon that we have. And then we have to, in love, help correct the problem.

Harrison from Mechanicsburg asked if you think that there is a problem when even

Christians adopt the terminology of the world referring to addictions as disease.

You know, truly I have not given that much thought. I know that it is referred to as disease, but let me say this.

I believe because of the prayers of my family that when I got saved, listen, this is highly unusual, but I was not only very addicted to the drugs, and I know some people say you cannot be addicted to cocaine, but it is more than just a physical addiction.

It is a craving that you have constantly for months and months after I quit using cocaine.

I could still sense that feeling. I could still sense that smell in my nose.

When I got saved and I leaned or I knelt down before that couch that day,

I repented of all of my sins. Listen, I was a womanizer. I had a foul mouth. I smoked cigarettes one after another.

I drank heavily. I did all these drugs. I did all of these things. I used the Lord's name in vain. And when

I got saved, it was all gone. Hey, did you like that? Well, praise

God for that. Obviously, though, you are still someone who, just like all of us who are not yet in glory, you do struggle with sin on a very daily basis.

Oh, amen. Amen. I am just like everybody else. You know, the Word of God says that we all sin and fall short of the glory of God.

Pastors, preachers, teachers, evangelists, apostles, we are all still human beings.

We all still fail. Last week, I had to stand before my, actually sit before my congregation and confess a sin before them.

Because we had a family in our congregation that has been there, been members of the church for many years.

They had a daughter that was in the hospital. They made me aware of it. I had her on our prayer chain.

We were praying for her in church. I didn't realize how serious her condition was and I didn't react quick enough.

And it's kind of just has been dwelling on their minds for several months. And I found out that they decided they were going to leave the church.

And so I called them and I said, you know, all I can do is apologize. I am so sorry. You know, it is definitely my fault.

Even though I have a staff that I could have assigned to that for some reason, it just kind of fell between the cracks.

And all I can do is ask you to forgive me. And they were gracious and they forgiven me. But they also said, you know, we feel like we need to go someplace to heal.

Of course, that breaks my heart because God's calling on our church, on our congregation is to be a hospital on the hilltop.

We're supposed to be a sanctuary where people can come and we can be there to help them and be there for them.

And so, yeah, you know, I'm just a human being. I make mistakes. I sin. I fall short of the glory of God.

But I praise God that even though the wages of sin is death, the gift of God's eternal life through Jesus Christ.

And sometimes those of us who have conquered addictions by the grace of God, we can tend to be at times, ironically, sometimes,

I'm not saying this happens with everybody. Some people who are freed from addictions are more compassionate to those with those problems.

Others are more openly critical of those with addictions because they say to themselves,

I kicked this. I repented of this. You have no excuse. Now, obviously, there is some element of truth in there.

But at the same time, we who have been rescued from sin, we have to be careful not to get on our high horse, as they say.

And we also, all of us, tend to view things differently when it comes to sins in our own backyard than those things that are publicly scorned, that are more openly unattractive, like drug addiction or sexual sins, or other things that bring more reproach upon a person.

We can very often succumb to just the sin of pride or the sin of lacking compassion and hospitality and perhaps selfishness.

These things will send a person to hell without Christ just as much as a drug addict or an adulterer or a fornicator.

Without Christ, of course. And this is actually our last break right now.

If anybody would like to join us on the air, if you'd like to email a question, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. Please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside of the

USA. And as I've been repeating, you may remain anonymous if it makes you feel more comfortable.

So just send us an email. We only have about a half hour left, so we look forward to hearing from you at chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

chrisarnsen at gmail .com. Don't go away. We'll be right back. I'm James White of Alpha Omega Ministries.

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Solid Ground Christian Books is honored to be a weekly sponsor of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. Paul wrote to the church at Galatia, For am

I now seeking the approval of man, or of God? Or am I trying to please man? If I were still trying to please man,

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Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. Welcome back. This is Chris Arnson. If you just tuned us in, this is the last half hour of our two -hour interview with Larry Hale, Senior Pastor of Glenvale Church of God in Marysville, Pennsylvania.

We have been discussing his testimony from pushing death to preaching life, testimony of a drug dealer turned pastor.

If you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com,

chrisarnson at gmail .com. Arnie in Perry County, Pennsylvania wants to know, let's see here, where was it?

Arnie says, I've heard my friends who smoke marijuana laugh and say that there is no such thing as a gateway drug when it comes to pot.

How do I respond to that? Maybe you could explain what a gateway drug is. People will say that a gateway drug is something like when you start smoking marijuana, it will eventually lead to stronger things that are more lethal, like heroin or cocaine or anything more serious, more addictive, more life -threatening.

Let me first say this. There are those who are my peers, pastors, who do not see marijuana as a gateway drug.

But if you were listening earlier in the program, you will know that that for me definitely was a gateway drug.

And I believe that it can be a gateway drug for other people. It may not be, but it certainly can be.

And why take the chance? It's like drinking.

You know, if you never take that first drink, you're never going to become an alcoholic. If you never take that first toke off of that joint, you will never become addicted to those drugs.

And I understand that marijuana itself is not considered to be addictive. I understand that in my case, cocaine is not considered to be addictive.

But as I said, it was definitely an addiction. I lived for the cocaine. I had to have it all the time.

And I praise God because, and I'm going to say this, and I haven't said this to many people. One day, a fellow came to me that was buying drugs from me.

And he took some of the rock cocaine and he smoked it, crack cocaine.

And I tried it. And that was the most euphoric moment that I've ever had in my life from drugs.

And I praise God that for some reason, I never did it again, because that is extremely addicting.

And so, you know, I would just say, don't even start. Why put yourself in a position that could ruin your life?

I had not heard that cocaine was not addicting. I have heard that from many different sources. Really?

Yes. But crack is, which is derivative of the same substance. It is literally, yeah, not just a derivative.

Smoking the cocaine in a rock form or, you know, I don't know, maybe they do something additional to that.

I'm not sure. It's been a lot of years. I went before that grand jury in 1984.

In 1985 is when I got saved. So things have changed a lot in those days.

Do you have any opportunities to bring the gospel to those people that you are actually contributing to endangering their lives and their souls through your activities with drug dealing?

For some of them, I have had the opportunity because some of them were members of the bands that I was in.

And as I spoke with you earlier today, most of the guys that were in bands with me over the years are now followers of Jesus Christ.

Amen. And that whole culture of the secular music world, especially contemporary music of any kind, especially certain genres, seems to be inseparably connected to drugs.

A Christian parent has a lot of things they need to be worried about in this day and age.

They've always had things to worry about going back since Adam and Eve, obviously, because Cain slew his own brother.

But we have these things today where sending a child off to a concert can be a dangerous endeavor.

What is your advice to Christian parents when their children want to be involved in secular activities that include concerts and things where there will certainly be drugs present?

There is always that battle or that tug of war between going overboard with keeping your children prisoner, which they have said.

There are many cases that I've even heard of where overly sheltered children can rebel and then run away from anything connected with Christianity completely.

But then, obviously, there are a lot of parents, as you were already talking about, who are too lax with these kinds of things.

What is your personal advice about that? Well, the Bible says to train up a child in the way they should go, and when they get old, they will not depart from it.

I think it's important that we build that foundation in those children when they're young. And if we're building the proper foundation, and if we're covering them in prayer, and we're not smothering them, they will grow up to make proper decisions.

Now, that's not always going to happen, because I know that my parents were praying for me. And they certainly, when

I started to get involved in secular music, were not very happy with that, though they allowed me to do it.

My mother always said, you know, we got you involved in music because we wanted you to play in the church.

But they allowed me to walk my own path, to make my own mistakes.

They didn't necessarily always pick me up when I fell, but they prayed me through it.

Now, as far as getting your children involved in secular events, I have seen, again, as a pastor of a church, the fact that when parents are very liberal with their children, they end up with liberal children.

And the kids, when they start getting older, and getting more and more involved in the world, tend to go the way of the world.

Whereas when they do have that basic training, that foundational training, they will eventually come back.

But the kids who do not have that foundation, that solid foundation in Jesus Christ, will tend to follow the ways of the world.

I am not somebody that in any way, shape, or form believes in the prohibition of prescription drugs.

I know that there are some, not only Christians, but obviously sects and cults that say that a

Christian should never use any kind of a pharmaceutical product at all. I don't agree with that at all.

But isn't there something that Christians even have to be very cautious about when it comes to getting prescription drugs?

Because they, unfortunately, people have been over -medicated, and things have been too freely and quickly, in a haphazard way, it seems, prescribed to people.

You wonder sometimes what goes through the minds of some of these trained physicians who are writing out prescriptions to people that they know have addiction problems.

I've personally witnessed that kind of a thing where drug addicts continually just return to the same physician that they know is going to prescribe things for them.

But these kinds of things can start out very innocently. When I was in an alcohol rehab,

I shouldn't say alcohol, it was drug and alcohol rehab ministry for my own sin of addiction to alcohol,

I was only one of, I think, three people there that specifically had a problem with alcohol.

Everybody else there was primarily there for Oxycontin addiction, and after that it would have been heroin and perhaps cocaine or something of that nature.

But definitely Oxycontin seemed to be the primary drug of those men that were in this facility.

And some of them were there because they started out with an injury that eventually it became an addiction to the painkiller.

If you could just talk a bit about that. Well, again, from experience, I have a very good friend that has had chronic pain and was given

Oxycontin and he was doing things that were very irrational, seeing things, seeing people come through walls.

You don't think of those things. And the doctor gave him that prescription in good faith to help him.

But he was in so much pain, I think he was taking more than what he should have taken and eventually ended up in the hospital.

And praise God that he was able to say, okay, that's it. I'm done with that.

By the strength and power that he has in his faith, he was able to stand up against that. But there are a lot of people in the world today that are addicted to prescription drugs, maybe given in good faith, maybe not.

Not everybody is pure and lily white. Not all doctors are really upholding the hypocritical oath.

They're out there trying to make money. And the drug companies encourage that, unfortunately.

And I did hear very recently on a radio interview that our government is really pushing the drug companies to find pain relief that is non -habit forming.

That's great. But in the meantime, there's a lot of people that are being addicted to prescription drugs.

So I guess one of the things that I could think of, and perhaps you could add your own advice, is that those who are close to anyone taking these prescription drugs for the right reason, they have to have the guts and the boldness to tell that person, hey,

I think that you're overdoing this, or you are overdoing this. Don't you think that you have to have the boldness to be, in some senses, you have to be like a watchdog when it comes to those you love?

Yes, most certainly. And if you've got a family that has got a good solid foundation, it's a family that's in unity, and you've got one person that is not in unity, and they are involved in drugs, the family really should set up some kind of an intervention for them.

In love, trying to help them, trying to get them the help they need. If it's an adult, you're not going to be able to force them.

Once again, if it's reinforced with prayer, if it's reinforced with love, if the family cares and is not enabling that person, often they'll find success.

Now, I don't want to turn this into a political discussion necessarily, but just because of it, our discussion did involve your legal problems with being a drug dealer and so on.

I have had people on both sides of the fence on this program during political discussions on whether or not making a drug illegal is really helping the society because of the fact that even when alcohol during the days of prohibition was made illegal, it actually gave birth to organized crime and so on.

What are your views about whether or not this is the role of the government to be trying to protect us through incarceration or threat of incarceration, prevent us from making our own stupid mistakes and decisions, even if they're dangerous?

There are people who think that even though they may be very opposed to illegal drug use and view it as sin and even any kind of recreational drug use, they still say that the government shouldn't be sticking their fingers in that area.

What is your opinion on that? Let me first say, I'm sure you're familiar with the phrase, don't argue politics or religion.

I don't argue politics, period. But I can say this. Apparently, the government has been doing this for many, many years and I don't see much success there.

With that said, had it not been for me going to prison, I may not be where I am here today.

Yeah, praise God for that. And this gives parents and even those who are facing incarceration hope that this need not be the end of the world when someone you love, or even if you are facing a prison sentence, if you are bowing your knee to the

Lord and crying out to him, realizing that you have gone too far with trying to just follow your own pleasures and not being concerned about obedience to God, this could be the beginning of the most glorious and beneficial chapter in your life and or the life of your child.

Isn't this a good word of hope for those listening who know that their children may be on trial right now, facing a prison sentence and so on, that this needs not be the end of the world for them?

There are so many Christian ministers that are operating within prison walls today that a lot of men and women come to saving grace of Christ through prison ministry.

I personally at Glenvale have an associate pastor who is in Perry County and Cumberland County prison on a regular basis.

We have a gentleman in the congregation that is in Perry County prison every week. There are ministers all over this nation and probably in other parts of the world that are in prisons, and they are helping people to be set free.

And so there is hope there. Prison can be a catalyst.

It was for me. It has been for many, many other men and women. So you despair over the fact that your child may be going into prison, but listen, pray for them, because there is hope that they will find deliverance while they're in that prison.

Amen. And shouldn't we who are on the outside of those prison walls be more concerned and more compassionate about those who are living behind bars?

That we have to, especially we have to make sure our churches have some kind of a ministry that reaches out to these individuals.

This goes all back to a Pharisaic attitude that many

Christians can develop. Let them rot there. They deserve it. Well, perhaps they do.

In fact, most of the time they do deserve it. But does that mean that we are to turn their backs on them and not give them the hope of eternal life?

You know, there is no such thing as a perfect church. There is no such thing as a perfect Christian.

People can be judgmental. I look at myself. I look at my own life. I look at my testimony.

When I was first licensed by the churches of God, I gave them a biographical sketch of who

I was and what God has done in my life. And a leader from one of the other churches of God said to me, you know what?

I don't know why that church would have hired you. We would never have somebody like you in our church.

Wow. They were speaking about your past?

Speaking about my past, yes. And I guess they would never have allowed the Apostle Paul in their church who rounded up men and women for execution because they were

Christians. That is a pretty sad state of thinking.

This all goes back to the fact that we are sinners who rely solely upon the mercy and grace of Christ for our salvation.

And we have to always remind ourselves, whenever we start to think too highly of ourselves and start to think too lowly of those around us, that if it were not for grace, we would be in the same hell with Hitler.

That we innately have nothing that makes us attractive or beautiful or loving or desirable to God.

He has loved us in spite of our unloveliness and our evil and our deserving only of his wrath.

And I just praise God that he, in his grace and kindness and mercy, looked down upon me and treated me and still does treat me not according to what

I deserve. And he blesses me not only with eternal life, but even a multitude of blessings every single day that I wake up to and experience, including the very breaths

I take and the beating of my heart. And I just praise God for his mercy and grace because I know that I only deserve an eternity of punishment for what

I have done and think. And the best thing that I could ever offer him amongst my record of good deeds would only cast me into hell if I was holding on to it as a badge of honor on Judgment Day.

And I'd like you, in about a five -minute time period, if you could, just close this program with what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today.

That which you most want them to leave the program echoing in their minds and hearts.

Well, to paraphrase Ephesians 2, 8, and 9, where it is by grace we are saved through faith in the

Lord Jesus Christ. It is by God's grace and his grace only when we place our faith in Jesus as the

Savior and the Lord of our lives. It is not by works because if we try to work our way into heaven, we can boast about it.

And the Word of God says that we as Christians— and listen to me, I'm speaking to you who are

Christians— we are known by our love. I am constantly telling our congregation we cannot stand in judgment of anybody else.

We cannot condemn other people. We have to have compassion. We have to have love.

We have to reach out to the lost. We have to be there praying for the lost. We need to do all that we can to reach a lost and dying world because Christ is coming back.

I don't know when he's coming back, but I know that he's coming back. And as a church, we need to be a place where people can come and they can feel safe and they can unburden themselves.

And we can, as a congregation, lift them up. And as Christians, that's our job.

Our job is to lead others to the hope that we have in the Lord Jesus Christ. And folks, once again, if you have family members or friends that are caught in addictions, number one, pray for them.

Pray without ceasing. Pray that God will reach them somehow, that he will put somebody in their path or something in their path, even if it's prison, that will deliver them from the drugs and alcohol and do not enable them.

Do all that you can to stop their actions in love, in prayer, and you will see a change in the lives of those people.

You will see a change in your own life if you were seeking first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, if you were seeking to establish relationship with those around you and loving them as God loves us.

You will have a life that is fulfilled. You will have peace. You will have joy in the midst of trial, even.

Life is hard. Our God is good. He is a good, good God, and he is always looking out for us.

Lay it all before him. Trust him to take care of your children, your relationships, your job, your health.

Trust him in every area of your life, and though things may not be perfect, there is still peace and joy in that relationship when he is first in your life.

Keep your eyes on the prize. Keep your eyes on Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith.

Stay in prayer. That is the best I can offer. Well, praise

God for that, and I just want to remind our listeners that you can contact the

Glenvale Church of God in Marysville, Pennsylvania by going to their website, glenvalecog .com.

That's G -L -E -N -V as in victory, A -L -E -C -O -G for churchofgod .com.

And the phone number of the Glenvale Church of God is 717 -957 -4573.

717 -957 -4573. And you can also send an email to Pastor Larry Hale at pastor at glenvalecog .com.

That's pastor at glenvalecog .com. It's been a real pleasure having you on the program today,

Pastor Larry. And I just want to once again remind our listeners that you are running out of time to be able to go to the

Ligonier Conference that's this weekend, the Ligonier Conference that features

Dr. R .C. Sproul and other major speakers titled The Dawn of the

Reformation in Lancaster, Pennsylvania. And if you'd like to register, please mention

Iron Trepans Iron Radio when you do. And the number is 800 -435 -4343, 800 -435 -4343.

And you can also go to Ligonier .org, L -I -G -O -N -I -E -R .org

and click on events at the top of the page. Before we sign off,

I want to play a song for you. This is a song that goes right along with the theme of today's interview.

My dear friend Debra Antignano, who is a Christian recording artist, is a former

Jehovah's Witness. And she became set free from the shackles of a false religion known as the

Jehovah's Witnesses, the Kingdom Hall. And she is a born -again believer in Christ and on fire for the true gospel and true

Christ of the scriptures. She wrote and recorded a song called

Captives Be Free. And as a former slave to alcoholism,

I have adopted this as my personal anthem of being set free from that addiction.

Although that was not the reason that Debra wrote it. It was because of her own being set free and rescued from a cult.

I think that this song will ring true in the hearts of every addict and former addict who hears it.

So I hope that you are blessed by this song as we sign off. And just to let you know, before we play the song, you can go to matteroftheheart .net

if you'd like more information on receiving this CD or having Debra sing at your congregation or other special event.

matteroftheheart .net And now I'd like you to be blessed by Captives Be Free by Debra Antignano.

Captives be free, just come to me.

I'll break those chains that hold you down.

A life of freedom you'd never know.

When the Lord calls you, He's all captives be.

Whenever burdens there may be,

The Lord says just come to me

And I will free you from all you bear.

So are you tired of being in chains?