July 22, 2021 Show with William F. Hill on “The Controversial PCA General Assembly: One Conservative PCA Pastor’s Assessment”

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July 23, 2021

July 22, 2021 WILLIAM F. HILL, pastor of Providence Church (PCA) in Evansville, Indiana, & blogger at TheParchment.net who will address: “The CONTROVERSIAL PCA GENERAL ASSEMBLY: One Conservative PCA Pastor’s Assessment”

00:04: Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister, George Norcross, in downtown
00:10: Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,
00:23: Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.
00:31: Proverbs, chapter 27, verse 17, tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.
00:38: Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation, to make one another wiser and better.
00:50: It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions, and now here's your host,
01:00: Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,
01:10: Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth, who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.
01:21: This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Thursday on this 22nd day of July 2021.
01:30: I'm always thrilled to have back on the program as a returning guest,
01:37: William F. Hill, pastor of Providence Church in Evansville, Indiana, which is a congregation in the
01:45: Presbyterian Church in America, and he's also a blogger at theparchment .net.
01:51: Today we are going to be addressing the controversial PCA General Assembly, one conservative
01:58: PCA pastor's assessment, and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Pastor Bill Hill.
02:06: Hey Chris, thank you, thanks for having me on, it's good to be here. By the way, what does the F in William F. Hill stand for?
02:13: Frank. Frank, I thought so, and I'm glad because I usually, when I'm spelling it, will say
02:19: F as in Frank. Yeah, it works, it works in many different ways.
02:26: So tell us about Providence Church in Evansville, Indiana, and if I'm not mistaken, although you've been on this program several times before,
02:36: I think this may be the first time I'm interviewing you as the pastor specifically of Providence Church in Evansville, am
02:42: I not? Yes, you're correct. I was installed as the pastor in November of 2020, so I've been here roughly nine months.
02:53: As you indicated, we are a congregation of the Prostitution Church in America, and when
03:02: I was installed, it was just coming out of church plant status, and so we've only been a particular congregation for as many months as I've been here, about nine months or so.
03:13: But we are located in Evansville, Indiana. Some of your listeners may not be familiar with Evansville, but it's tucked in the southwest corner of the great state of Indiana, so a stone's throw from Kentucky and another stone's throw from Illinois, so we're right there in that tri -state area.
03:35: A county of about 181 ,000 people, a city of about 115 ,000, so lots of opportunity.
03:42: We are the only established conservative Presbyterian church in the county, and so we have really a lot of opportunity to labor for the kingdom here, and so I'm just very thankful to be here.
04:01: It's a medium -sized congregation, but it's the largest church I've pastored to date, so it comes with the challenges of that and everything else, but I'm very much enjoying being here.
04:16: This fits more in line with the type of area that I grew up in as a child.
04:25: What state, New York? Yeah, I was born and raised in Rochester, which is a city -county of about a million and a half people, but Evansville's got everything you could want as far as activities and whatnot, so it's a welcome change to where I was previously, which was in a very small rural context, which was difficult for me on many different levels, so very glad to be here.
04:55: It's a great congregation of godly people, probably some of the most willing servants of the
05:06: Lord that I've ever met in my life as far as just zeal to help and jump in and do whatever's needful, and it certainly makes this pastor's heart full and encouraged to see that.
05:22: It makes my life a little bit easier, of course, when so many are willing to jump in and do the labor that is often needed within the confines of a church community, so, yes, very grateful to be here.
05:37: And the website, if you're interested in visiting this church or referring it to a family member, friend, or loved one in the
05:47: Evansville, Indiana area, is ProvidenceChurchEVV, as in VictoryVictory .com,
05:55: ProvidenceChurchEVV .com, and tell us about your blog,
06:01: The Parchment. Sure, I started doing blogging off and on,
06:10: I don't even remember how long, it's been many years, but it's only been recently,
06:16: I would say within the last year and a half or so, where I've stepped things up there and have been daily posting daily prayers, a morning devotional, which is a video, currently working through the
06:32: Westminster Shorter Catechism, so it's about a ten -minute video each morning, Monday through Friday, and the occasional article on some subject or area of interest that I'm working through, so it's nothing
06:46: I don't expect it to ever be in the top ten of anything, but maybe not even the top thousand, but it's really for my own sake, to be perfectly honest, it just gives me an outlet to write, and maybe some people would benefit from it, and if they do, that's great.
07:06: But I would say the hallmark of the website is the morning devotional that I endeavor to do as the
07:14: Lord gives me the strength and enables me to each day, Monday through Friday. If anybody wants to look into the
07:23: Parchment blog of our guest today, Bill Hill, go to theparchment .net,
07:31: theparchment .net, and I know I probably have shared this story with our listeners before when
07:39: I've interviewed you, but I cannot help but reflect humorously on my first meeting with you.
07:48: It was at a Banner of Truth conference, probably five years ago, somewhere in that neighborhood at the
07:54: Elizabethtown College in Elizabethtown, Pennsylvania, and I got lost walking around late at night on the campus.
08:04: It was pitch black. I couldn't find my way around, so I followed the scent of cigar smoke until I got to Civilization and found a group of Presbyterian pastors lounging around and having conversation with cigars and pipes, and I was passing out flyers for my radio show, and from behind me
08:33: I heard a voice, Why don't you interview me? That was you. Yep, I remember that.
08:42: And I did indeed interview you not long after that, and I believe our topic was the challenges of pastoring a small congregation, if I'm not mistaken.
08:52: It was. If anybody wants to look up any of my previous interviews with Pastor William F.
08:59: Hill, also known as Bill Hill, go to ironsharpensirenradio .com and go to the archive and type in Hill, H -I -L -L, and several of those interviews will be with Pastor Bill.
09:14: I have interviewed other people with that last name, so there'll be other things there as well, but you will find
09:20: Pastor Bill Hill's interviews there, too. We all have heard, well, many of us who are
09:28: Reformed, that is, whether we are Presbyterian or not, I happen to be a Reformed Baptist myself, as you know, but there are many people who were waiting with bated breath to hear an assessment of the recent
09:44: PCA General Assembly. It was quite controversial, and why don't you tell us, first of all, what is the
09:53: PCA General Assembly, and what were the key things being addressed that made it so controversial, at this recent one?
10:04: Yeah, sure. Well, at the risk of giving your listeners a brief course in Presbyterian church polity,
10:15: I'll just try to make it as simple as possible. Within Presbyterianism, there are what we call three courts of the
10:23: Church. There's the local court, which is represented by elders within a particular congregation.
10:31: They make up what is known as the Session, and they're the under -shepherds in the
10:37: Church who guide and direct the spiritual well -being of the congregation. Then there's the middle court, otherwise known as the
10:45: Presbytery. That's the combined number of churches within a regional area, together with her officers, that is to say the teaching elders and ruling elder delegates to Presbytery.
11:02: They, of course, conduct the business of the broader Church within her boundaries. Then there's the subject for today, the
11:10: General Assembly, which is the highest court of the Church in which all of the teaching elder and ruling elder delegates of the churches within the denomination itself gather, in our case, once a year in a particular location to do the business of the
11:30: Church nationally. This year, our
11:37: General Assembly was held in St. Louis, Missouri. We, of course, did not have one last year due to that dreadful thing that I'm always even mentioning it any longer.
11:51: I, myself, suffered with it not too long ago. Actually, a couple of weeks ago, I was infected. I got infected with COVID -19 when
11:59: I was at the General Assembly, so I took away more from the General Assembly than I had bargained for. But be that as it may, the
12:08: Assembly was held in St. Louis, Missouri this year at the America's Convention Center right in downtown
12:13: St. Louis. So it's a gathering, as I said, a gathering of teaching elders, of which
12:20: I am one, and then the ruling elder delegates that are sent by the churches across the country.
12:27: This year was a record number of officers, somewhere in the range of 2 ,100 to 2 ,200 officers of the
12:37: Church gathered in St. Louis. It shattered the old record of about 1 ,600 officers in years past.
12:46: And it did so because, well, there was a number of reasons, but the main reason I would suggest is because of the issues that were on the table that were going to be dealt with, and we did deal with this year.
13:00: This is my eighth General Assembly, so I'm not a rookie to the proceedings and understand the inner workings of all that happens.
13:10: And if you've never been to a General Assembly, it can be a little bit like a deer in the headlights experience because it's very, lots of moving pieces, and if you don't know what's going on, it can be very confusing.
13:23: But so that's Presbyterian polity in a nutshell,
13:28: I guess, and that's what we're going to talk about. And so what were the primary issues that were a cause for controversy, which had many people wondering, how is this
13:42: General Assembly going to go? I know one of them, I'll start off with right off the bat, the most probably important issue involves homosexuality.
13:54: Now, from what I understand, at the very least, there is unanimity amongst ordained
14:01: PCA leaders that homosexuality is sin.
14:07: I don't believe there are any to the far left as exists in the PCUSA, which also has a large element of total apostasy in it.
14:18: Not everyone in that denomination is, there is a remnant of Bible -believing, truly regenerate
14:26: Christians in that denomination, even in leadership. I know some pastors in the PCUSA who are evangelical and Bible -believing, but there is a strong element of apostasy and pro -homosexual sentiments, which the
14:44: Apostle Paul condemns just as much as the act, those who give that hearty approval, and pro -abortion, and you could go on and on with some of the horrific things being taught by some in the
15:00: PCUSA. But from what I understand in the PCA, there is a general understanding unanimously that homosexuality is indeed a very serious, if not damning, sin, if not repented of, but there has been tragically in the
15:20: PCA and in other denominations that would be identified as conservative
15:26: Bible -believing denominations, there has risen up a group that would claim that it is acceptable to be an ordained leader in a church or denomination while simultaneously having the identity of a homosexual as long as that person remains chaste or marries someone of the opposite gender.
15:58: Am I off base here? Well, that's it in a nutshell. This movement, this...
16:06: Of course, much of what I'm going to say is my own opinion as to matters that have transpired over the course of a number of years within the
16:16: PCA. I would suggest first that, like any institution that is on earth and subject to the misery of the
16:26: Fall and the trajectory of the Fall and sin in the world, no institution is immune to the impulses and influences of the world, and while, of course, as a
16:39: Christian denomination or Christian denomination, we should labor zealously to contend for the faith that's once been delivered to the saints, to resist the tendency to move into a downgrade position, the culture oftentimes has great influence and sway over the minds of fallen men, and so what happened is, as the homosexual issue in our world and our culture became moved from the status of shame or secrecy into really the public spotlight and almost to the point of which it was celebrated—well, not to the point, it is at that point in which it's celebrated or held in some kind of esteem—that influence began to make its inroads into the church at large, and as a result, there was a movement that was begun.
17:38: It's known as Revoice, in which men and women got together to seek to work through some of the issues that you've already highlighted related to same -sex attraction, identity as both
17:55: Christian and homosexual at the same time, and as a result, this created quite the controversy within the
18:04: Presbyterian Church in America, and terms began to be attached to these movements, one of which is one term that is thrown around quite frequently is the idea of Side B, Side B Day Christianity.
18:19: Now, what does that mean? Well, that simply means, as you've already defined it, that one can be a
18:27: Christian and still have same -sex attraction while not practicing their desires.
18:36: In other words, they remain celibate to those impulses.
18:42: Side A, Gay Christianity, is what it sounds like. It's full -blown practicing homosexuality, so there's no one in the
18:49: PCA, to my knowledge anyway, that would advocate for a Side A position at least publicly, and ordain such as hold to a
19:02: Side A practicing so -called gay, or I prefer homosexual,
19:09: Christianity. Now, I don't know of any to my knowledge, and some in the conservative branch of the
19:15: PCA have been accused of making such an argument. That's not true. We've never said that. The concern we've had, and many in the conservative branch of the
19:24: PCA have had, is relegated to the issue of Side B, whether a man is qualified and biblically qualified to hold the office of Minister of the
19:39: Gospel, while at the same time identifying as a same -sex -attracted
19:47: Christian functionally Side B or homosexual. They may not be practicing such, but the question still remains, is it possible, and is it within the confines of the biblical qualifications for elder, to be in that camp, and although not practicing such behavior?
20:08: So this was the, I would say, the hottest issue facing the denomination as a result of the
20:16: COVID pandemic of 2020. Everything got functionally put on pause, and the
20:22: Church at large was waiting for some response from the General Assembly on this particular issue, which then we offered by way of overture to the
20:37: General Assembly, which then was passed at a very large margin, actually, but it's still not done.
20:43: We still have much work to do in relationship to the particulars of that overture, which I can get into if you want to in a minute, but so that was the hottest issue.
20:53: There are others that were also on the table for debate, and the other one, at least in my opinion, the other hot issue, and I would say it ranks up there pretty high, was the question of whether a presbytery can restrict a member of that presbytery, that means a teaching elder, someone who holds the same credentials as I do, if they're able to teach what is known as an exception to the
21:27: Westminster Standards. Now, for your listeners' sake, the Westminster Standards are the Confession of Faith, Larger and Shorter Catechisms.
21:34: They are the doctrinal standards of the Church. They are an accurate summary of what we believe the
21:40: Bible teaches on the matters in which it discusses, and it's those theological and doctrinal truths that every elder in the
21:48: Church are required to uphold in the system of doctrine as expressed within the Westminster Standards.
21:55: With that said, there are times, in fact, oftentimes, a man who seeks ordination within the
22:02: PCA will take what is known as an exception or a stated difference with the doctrinal standards on some point.
22:09: It's up to the presbytery to decide whether or not that stated difference strikes at the vitals of religion.
22:15: Now, that's a whole other interview, frankly, as to what that actually means.
22:21: I have yet to hear it well defined by anybody. It just varies. But oftentimes, the presbytery will grant a stated exception as long as it doesn't strike at the vitals of religion, but sometimes the presbytery then, in their wisdom, will restrict or bind the individual's behavior and prohibit that individual from teaching that exception within the bounds or the confines of their presbyterian, within the bounds of their presbytery.
22:51: So this became an issue that's been, that's dated back two or three General Assemblies ago with one of our presbyteries that did, in fact, do that, told the man he could not teach those exceptions within the bounds of their presbytery, and it was challenged in a particular committee of the church, and the committee of the church ruled that the presbytery erred in that action.
23:16: Thankfully, in the Assembly in St. Louis, that ruling was overturned and the presbytery was exonerated, and of course,
23:25: I voted in that direction because we are a grassroots denomination, and presbyteries certainly have the right to restrict the behavior of their teaching elders as it pertains to the teaching of doctrine that occurs within the bounds of the church.
23:37: If you don't have that ability, then you have pretty much a functional, chaotic mess that renders the doctrinal standards of the church moot.
23:48: And so that was the other hot issue that came up during the deliberation debate at the
23:58: Assembly. So those are the two big issues. If you would like, I can get into the, you know, the processes by which these things happen, but anyway.
24:08: Yeah, and when we come back from the break, you can do that. Okay. If anybody would like to join us, if anybody would like to join us with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com,
24:20: c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com. Please give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the
24:29: USA, and please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.
24:35: Although I have been getting a lot of anonymous questions lately that don't seem to fit the description of personal and private for some reason,
24:43: I could readily understand a topic like this evoking questions from people who want to remain anonymous because of some of the very controversial issues involved.
24:57: You may be in the PCA and strongly support one view or another. You may either disagree with our guest or you may agree wholeheartedly with our guest and disagree with your own church on certain issues.
25:13: Perhaps you are even somebody struggling with the sin of homosexuality, or perhaps you are one of these folks that we believe is in very grievous error to think that a true
25:28: Christian can wear that damnable behavior as an identity perpetually for the rest of your life and still be confident you will go to heaven when you pass from this earth.
25:45: Well, whatever the case may be, if you really need to remain anonymous, you can. But if it's just a general question, again, please give us your first name, city and state, and country of residence.
25:54: Don't go away. We'll be right back with Pastor Bill Hill after these messages. Hi, I'm Phil Johnson, host and executive director of Grace to You, the media ministry of John MacArthur.
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35:01: Welcome back, this is Chris Arnzen. If you just tuned us in, our guest today for the entire program is
35:07: Pastor William F. Hill of Providence Church in Evansville, Indiana, a congregation in the
35:15: Presbyterian Church in America, also known as the PCA, and he's also a blogger at theparchment .net.
35:23: We are addressing the controversial PCA General Assembly, One Conservative PCA Pastor's Assessment.
35:30: If you have a question, our email address is chrisarnzen at gmail .com, C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.
35:37: Give us your first name at least, city and state of residence, and country of residence. Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.
35:46: And you were going to go into some of the details right before we went to the break on how the
35:54: PCA addressed these primary areas of concern in your denomination.
36:00: Sure. Well, for the sake of those who may not, again, this will probably end up turning into a
36:10: Presbyterian polity discussion in some level, but it's really important for your listeners to understand how we do business and how we address matters that affect the
36:21: Church, and there's a number of different avenues. There's judicial cases that come up.
36:29: That means charges that have been filed against a minister or against a presbytery that are handled by what is known as the
36:40: Standing Judicial Commission. They're not a committee, they're a commission. They act on behalf of the Assembly. They act on behalf of the denomination.
36:48: And in some sense, they're like the Supreme Court of the United States, and so they rule on matters that affect the
36:55: Church. But generally, what happens is, throughout the course of the year leading up to the
37:02: General Assembly, presbyteries, of which the PCA has 88 presbyteries, so 88 presbyteries, 370 ,000 members.
37:14: I forget how many churches in total, but anyway, the presbyteries, most of the time, a presbytery will overture the
37:27: General Assembly on a particular matter or issue that they would either like to see addressed or changed within what we call the
37:35: Book of Church Order. Now, the Book of Church Order is our Constitution. It's part of the Constitution of the
37:41: PCA. It's the marching orders as to how we conduct business and how we examine men for ordination and a host of other things.
37:50: It's not the Bible, of course. It can be changed, it can be amended, and oftentimes presbyteries will seek, by way of overture, to change the
37:58: Constitution of the PCA by process. And so what ends up happening is a presbytery will review a particular matter, they will vote to submit that overture to the
38:12: General Assembly, of which at that point it's entered into the record and will be taken up at the next meeting of the
38:20: General Assembly. So out of 2020 and out of 2019, because we did not meet last year, presbyteries across the denomination were filing overtures on any number of issues to be addressed at the next meeting of the
38:33: General Assembly, which was 2020. We had 48, I'm just checking my records here real quick,
38:40: I think it was, yeah, we had 48 overtures that came in over the course of the two years that addressed matters that are functionally pedantic, like a change in presbytery bounds and splitting a presbytery for the simplicity of travel.
38:58: Those are relatively non -controversial types of things, all the way up to matters pertaining to revoice same -sex attraction and those more controversial issues.
39:13: And so what ends up happening is an overture will be entered into the record of the
39:19: General Assembly and a week of General Assembly, a committee of commissioners, of which
39:25: I was one, will convene on what is known as the Overtures Committee.
39:31: And I was a member of the Overtures Committee. The Overtures Committee is the largest committee at the
39:36: General Assembly. It's comprised of one teaching elder and one ruling elder from every presbytery in the denomination.
39:44: So we could have had upwards of 176 men in the room.
39:49: I don't think we did. I think we were in the, somewhere in the 120s, because not every presbytery fills both slots for whatever reason.
39:59: And so it is the largest committee in which we then take up all of the overtures that were handed down or sent up by the presbyteries over the course of the last year.
40:09: And we begin to debate and deliberate those, the wording and structure of the overture, and sometimes amend them and change them even somewhat or significantly, as the case may be, and then vote on that overture.
40:26: And so if the overture comes before us and we agree with it, just for the sake of argument, we agree with it, we vote to answer that overture in the affirmative.
40:36: But that's not the end of it. It still needs to go to the floor, the Assembly itself, where all of the commissioners then have opportunity to vote and debate that issue.
40:47: And not until it is voted on on the floor of the General Assembly does it become what we call a passable movement or a passable, it's an item that is passed through the
40:59: Assembly. Now, in the case of the controversial ones, of which was
41:05: Overture No. 23, which dealt specifically with the same -sex attraction and identification as such, and Overture No.
41:17: 37, those two were the most controversial overtures in the slate of overtures that we dealt with.
41:25: Those two overtures are requests to amend our
41:32: Book of Church Order, the Constitution. And in order for that to actually occur, it requires a majority vote of the
41:40: Assembly, which they both received. But then it also now requires two -thirds majority of the prospitaries.
41:51: So whatever two -thirds of 88 is, math is not my thing. I think it's 59, but you can check me.
41:56: But it requires two -thirds of the prospitaries to affirm those changes.
42:03: And it's still not changed until next year, the 2022 General Assembly, which is in Birmingham, Alabama.
42:11: That would require then a majority vote in 2022. If that occurs on both of those controversial overtures, then it becomes law within the bounds of the
42:22: PCA. It becomes part of the Constitution, and it must be followed and upheld. So as it stands right now, the two controversial overtures have passed the first gateway, which was the majority vote of the
42:36: Assembly this year. But now it's going to circulate through all the prospitaries and require a two -thirds approval.
42:44: If the two -thirds approval does not occur, the overtures die on their face and nothing happens as a result.
42:52: So conservative men like myself are still laboring to continue the work that's begun.
43:01: As one of my friends put it, we took the beach head, but we still need to press inland. So that's the general process of how things occur within the
43:13: PCA. You know, we love to quote that we do all things decently and in order. That's Presbyterianism.
43:20: And that means sometimes things take longer than we would prefer. But it's probably better that way, that we go slow, go careful, instead of rush and make silly mistakes along the way.
43:33: So that's the general process that happens every single year. In some years, there's controversy.
43:40: In some years, it's really not a big deal. But this year happened to be one of great controversy as people were waiting for us to make a definitive statement as relates to this issue of same -sex attraction related specifically to ministers of the
43:57: Gospel. Both of the overtures that were addressed, that address that particular subject, and this is very important to say, and it's very important to make very clear because there's a great deal of confusion out there as it relates to this issue.
44:11: Both of the overtures that have passed the General Assembly speak directly into the ordained minister or ruling elder, officers in the church.
44:23: It has nothing to do with numbers of the church, whether they wrestle with this particular sin, whether they're struggling with homosexuality.
44:31: It has nothing to do with the numbers of the church. It's not a statement that says we don't want homosexuals to come to our churches.
44:37: By all means, we want them to come. Where else are they going to hear the answer they need to hear? And so both of these overtures directly address ministers of the
44:47: Gospel, officers in the church, as pertains to their biblical qualifications to hold that office.
44:55: And sadly, there are a number of people on the other side of the argument that have sought to muddy the water by making statements to the effect that we have locked out, you know, individuals who are homosexual.
45:11: We don't want them in our churches. This is not true. It's patently false. I was part of the overtures committee. We debated that issue at great length, and it was a great concern, and it was stated,
45:20: I would say, to a man, we all agreed that that is not the issue on the table. The issue on the table is whether or not a man is biblically qualified to hold the office of minister or ruling elder or deacon in the church who holds and identifies his sin with the idea of being a
45:39: Christian at the same time. That is the issue, has always been the issue, and so an overture was set up by Gulf Coast Presbytery that sought to amend our book of church order to restrict or prohibit a man who identifies as a homosexual
45:57: Christian or such terms that they would not be deemed qualified to hold office within the church in America.
46:07: That overture was radically changed by the overtures committee, and if you'd like,
46:15: I can get into the specifics of that if you'd like, but I think I answered your initial question.
46:21: Yeah, I'd like you to get into the specifics, but I think clarification is required on something. Sure. You said that you want homosexuals to come to the
46:33: PCA churches. Now, there is a big difference in my opinion, and I think my understanding of the scripture, between homosexuals or heterosexuals involved in fornication and adultery or thieves and, you know, drunkards, drug addicts, coming to a congregation to be in the presence of worship services, to hear the gospel preached, to hear the call of repentance, but there's a difference between that and becoming members of that congregation without repentance.
47:14: Yeah, yeah, that's a good qualification, and I probably should have made that very clear. Certainly, I mean,
47:21: I can only speak for me, really, but I suspect they would support the argument that while certainly
47:31: I would want anyone struggling with any sin, it doesn't, to me, it's not the issue so much as the fact that where else are they going to hear the good news of Christ and the hope that they have in Him if they're not in front of the preached word.
47:46: However, with that said, if this is a sin they're unwilling to let go of, they're unwilling to deal with and repent of, mortified, then they cannot be members, because one of the vows of membership is that they would live as becomes a follower of Christ, and so it's difficult to reconcile particular lifestyles such as homosexuality with the gospel itself, and so this is not to say that they can't be in the building.
48:15: It's to say that membership, of course, is a different issue and a different question, but we certainly would want them to be in a place where they would hear the gospel preached and believing what
48:25: Paul says in Romans 10, that is, that means primarily in which people are converted, and so by all means come.
48:34: You're welcome, but membership, of course, that's an entirely different matter.
48:42: And I have a feeling that this question that I'm going to pose to you will require you to answer in its fullness when we return from the midway break, because we're rapidly approaching the midway break, but this whole issue seems to be hinged on a very important question that is the cause of much debate in Christianity, even in conservative
49:11: Bible -believing Christianity, and even in Reformed Christianity. Really, the issue is, is there a difference in the level of severity of sin, someone who struggles with heterosexual desires outside the bonds of marriage, and someone who struggles with homosexual desires?
49:41: One can be considered the abuse of a
49:48: God -given gift. A heterosexual desire is obviously a
49:55: God -given gift given to those that intend to be married.
50:04: Obviously, a part of the reason why people are even approaching the point of courting and considering marriage and considering being joined to somebody for the rest of their life is that there is a physical attraction, a gift from God.
50:22: But a homosexual attraction and desire is purely unnatural, and some might argue is a sign of someone being turned over by God himself to a wicked desire.
50:40: And then, of course, even in that category, you have differences of opinion.
50:47: Well, if somebody was a homosexual actively, and they become born again, they are given a heart by Christ.
50:59: Most Christians agree that it is possible for a stirring up, a flaring up occasionally of those desires that are unnatural and damnable.
51:13: But there's a difference between that and somebody that is so dominated by that attraction that they even identify themselves as homosexual or gay
51:25: Christians. That is the most problematic area for me, and I will have you address that when we come back, because I'm probably going to get in trouble with a lot of people.
51:36: But to be perfectly honest, I think that I would question the genuineness of somebody's regeneration if a homosexual desire was something that dominated their life and thought pattern to the point where they say,
51:55: I am a gay Christian. That is very problematic for me because of the fact that it is unnatural.
52:00: It's not just the abuse of a God -given gift sexual attraction to the opposite sex.
52:06: But I'll have you address that when we come back, because we have to go to our midway break right now. And please be patient with us, folks, because this is the longer than normal break that we always have in the middle of the show, because Grace Life Radio, 90 .1
52:19: FM in Lake City, Florida, requires of us a longer break in the middle of the show, because the
52:25: FCC requires of them to air public service announcements and other local things that geographically localize
52:31: Iron Trip and Zion Radio and all of their programming to Lake City, Florida. So please be patient with us. While they do that, while they air their public service announcements on Grace Life Radio, we simultaneously air our globally heard commercials.
52:44: Please use this time wisely and write down as much of the information as you possibly can for as many of our advertisers as you can, so that you can more frequently and successfully respond to them, even if that just means contacting our advertisers to say, thank you for sponsoring
52:59: Iron Trip and Zion Radio. That will go a long way. We need our advertisers to exist, folks. We cannot exist without the funding that comes from our advertisers.
53:07: So respond to them as frequently as possible. And also, of course, send in questions to Bill Hill at chrisarnson at gmail .com.
53:15: chrisarnson at gmail .com. We'll be right back. I'm James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries.
53:27: My friend Chris Arnson, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, and I are headed down to Atlanta, Georgia once again for the
53:34: G3 Conference. This year's G3 will be held Thursday, September 30th through Saturday, October 2nd on the theme
53:41: Christ is Supreme Over All. I'll be joined by over 20 other speakers and musicians to lead in the worship of God through preaching, teaching, and singing, including
53:51: John MacArthur, Phil Johnson, Conrad M. Bayway, Daryl Bernard Harrison, and Virgil Walker.
53:57: For details, visit g3conference .com. That's g3conference .com. Chris Arnson and I hope to see you
54:03: September 30th through October 2nd at G321. This is James White reminding you that Christ is supreme over all.
54:25: When Iron Sharpens Iron Radio first launched in 2005, the publishers of the
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56:12: Getting a driver's license, running a cash register, flipping burgers, passing sixth grade.
56:19: Do you know what they all have in common? They all require training, assessments, and certifications. But do you know what requires no training at all?
56:27: Becoming a parent. My name is A .M. Brewster. I'm the president of Truth, Love, Parent, and host of its award -winning podcast.
56:35: I've been a biblical family counselor since the early 2000s, and what I've discovered is that the majority of Christian parents have never been biblically equipped to do the work of the ministry in their homes.
56:45: That's why Truth, Love, Parent exists. We serve God by equipping dads and moms to be the ambassador parents
56:51: God called and created them to be. We produce free parenting resources, train church leaders, and offer biblical counseling so that the next generation of dads and moms can use the scriptures to parent their children for life and Godliness.
57:03: Please visit us at TruthLoveParent .com. As host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, I frequently get requests from listeners for church recommendations.
57:27: The church I've been strongly recommending as far back as the 1980s is Grace Covenant Baptist Church in Flemington, New Jersey, pastored by Alan Dunn.
57:37: Grace Covenant Baptist Church believes it's God's prerogative to determine how he shall be worshiped and how he shall be represented in the world.
57:45: They believe churches need to turn to the Bible to discover what to include in worship and how to worship
57:51: God in spirit and truth. Grace Covenant Baptist Church endeavors to maintain a
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58:03: Baptism and communion are the scriptural elements of their corporate worship, performed with faith, joy, and sobriety.
58:11: Discover more about Grace Covenant Baptist Church in Flemington, New Jersey at GCBCNJ .squarespace
58:19: .com. That's GCBCNJ .squarespace .com
58:26: or call them at 908 -996 -7654. That's 908 -996 -7654.
58:36: Tell Pastor Dunn that you heard about Grace Covenant Baptist Church on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. Hi, this is
58:55: John Sampson, pastor of King's Church in Peoria, Arizona. Taking a moment of your day to talk about Chris Arnson and the
59:03: Iron Sharpens Iron podcast. I consider Chris a true friend and a man of high integrity. He's a skilled interviewer who's not afraid to ask the big penetrating questions while always defending the key doctrines of the
59:14: Christian faith. I've always been happy to point people to this podcast knowing it's one of the very few safe places on the internet where folk won't be led astray.
59:23: I believe this podcast needs to be heard far and wide. This is a day of great spiritual compromise, and yet God has raised
59:30: Chris up for just such a time, and knowing this, it's up to us as members of the body of Christ to stand with such a ministry in prayer and in finances.
59:40: I'm pleased to do so, and would like to ask you to prayerfully consider joining me in supporting
59:45: Iron Sharpens Iron financially. Would you consider sending either a one -time gift or even becoming a regular monthly partner with this ministry?
59:54: I know it would be a huge encouragement to Chris if you would. All the details can be found at ironsharpensironradio .com
01:00:01: where you can click support. That's ironsharpensironradio .com. Here's what
01:00:11: Gary DeMar, president of American Vision, had to say about Iron Sharpens Iron Radio recently.
01:00:17: Good to be back, Chris. I always enjoy our time. You, uh, I have to say you're one of the better interviewers out there, and I've been doing this for 30, more than 30 years.
01:00:27: Wow, that's some compliment. How much do I owe you for that? You don't have to owe me anything.
01:00:34: We're in good, we're in good shape. I'm glad you said it on the air so I don't have to brag about myself.
01:00:41: Tell your friends and loved ones about Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, airing live Monday through Friday, 4 to 6 p .m.
01:00:47: Eastern Time at ironsharpensironradio .com. Hello, my name is
01:00:57: Anthony Uvino, and I'm one of the pastors at Hope Reform Baptist Church in Quorum, New York, and also the host of the reformrookie .com
01:01:04: website. I want you to know that if you enjoy listening to the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio show like I do, you can now find it on the
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01:01:28: Please be sure to also give it a good review and pass it along to anyone who would benefit from the teaching and the many solidly reformed guests that Chris Arnzen has on the show.
01:01:38: Truth is so hard to come by these days, so don't waste your time with fluff or fake news. Subscribe to the
01:01:44: Iron Sharpens Iron Radio podcast right now. And while you're at it, you can also sign up for the reformrookie .com
01:01:50: podcast and visit our website and the YouTube page. We are dedicated to teaching Christian theology from a
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01:02:03: Doctrines of Grace to the Olivet Discourse and the Book of Leviticus, the Reform Rookie podcast and YouTube channel is sure to have something to offer everyone seeking biblical truth.
01:02:13: And finally, if you're looking to worship in a reformed church that holds to the 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith, please join us at Hope Reform Baptist Church in Corham, New York.
01:02:23: Again, I'm Pastor Anthony Invinio, and thanks for listening. We are excited to announce another new member of the
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01:04:52: It's such a joy to witness and experience fellowship with people of God, like the dear saints at Hope Reformed Baptist Church in Coram, who have an intensely passionate desire to continue digging deeper and deeper into the unfathomable riches of Christ in his holy word, and to enthusiastically proclaim
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01:05:17: I hope you also have the privilege of discovering this precious congregation and receive the blessing of being showered by their love, as I have.
01:05:26: For more information on Hope Reformed Baptist Church, go to hopereformedli .net.
01:05:33: That's hopereformedli .net. Or call 631 -696 -5711.
01:05:42: That's 631 -696 -5711. 631 -696 -5711. Tell the folks at Hope Reformed Baptist Church of Coram, Long Island, New York, that you heard about them from Tony Costa on Iron Sharpens Iron.
01:06:04: Charles Haddon Spurgeon once said, give yourself unto reading. The man who never reads will never be read.
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01:08:26: Before we return to Bill Hill and his assessment of the recent PCA General Assembly, I just have a couple of announcements to make.
01:08:34: First of all, thank you all who have been praying for my oldest brother John in a skilled nursing facility in Texas as he continues to battle cancer, critical stage emphysema, an inoperable aneurysm, and pneumonia.
01:08:54: My brother John has lately been giving evidence that he is either truly saved or being drawn by God, claiming he is turning to Christ every day in prayer, and making such statements as that that were not very typical of his vocabulary with me previously.
01:09:18: But please continue to pray, and please continue to pray specifically that the
01:09:23: Lord, in all truth, brings him to a state of regeneration, that he is truly born again, and that I am fully aware of that with as much convincing evidence as a human could possibly receive.
01:09:42: I want to know that when my brother departs from this planet I can have great confidence and rest fully in the knowledge that he is in eternity with Christ.
01:09:56: So please continue praying for him, and also please continue to pray that he is healed physically.
01:10:02: I am amazed at how many times our merciful and gracious Sovereign Lord has rescued my brother from the brink of death, and it is no exception right now how my
01:10:16: Lord, our Lord, is continuing to preserve his life. It is absolutely astonishing, especially since he has already been warned many times if he were to get pneumonia again he would likely not survive it, and that was about three bouts with pneumonia ago.
01:10:35: So thank you for your prayers. Also folks, if you love this show and you don't want it to disappear from the airwaves,
01:10:43: I'm urging you please go to ironsharpenxionradio .com, click support, then click click to donate now.
01:10:50: You can donate instantly with a debit or credit card in that fashion. If you prefer snail mail using your local postal service to send in a check, well a physical address will also appear on the screen when you click support at ironsharpenxionradio .com
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01:11:23: You don't have to believe identically with me, but you need to be promoting something that is at the very least compatible with what we believe here.
01:11:32: So send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com,
01:11:39: and put advertising in the subject line. I want to remind you folks that one of the primary reasons
01:11:45: I launched Ironsharpen's Iron Radio back in 2005 was to be a friend, a platform, and a helping hand to the local pastor and the local church, including such pastors as William F.
01:12:00: Hill of Providence Church in Evansville, Indiana. I never want to do anything that hinders or hurts or thwarts the ministry of the local pastor and the local church, and that includes in regard to the finances of the local church.
01:12:21: So therefore, please, when you are giving to Ironsharpen's Iron Radio, don't give your church less money than you're accustomed to giving your church in order to give us a gift.
01:12:32: Don't siphon money away from your regular giving to your own local church in order to bless Ironsharpen's Iron Radio.
01:12:38: In other words, don't curse your church financially by blessing us financially. Please never do that.
01:12:45: Also, please don't plunge your family into further financial peril if you are really struggling to survive by giving to Ironsharpen's Iron Radio at this point.
01:12:55: Those two things are commands of God in scripture providing for your church and your family.
01:13:01: Providing for my radio show obviously is not a command of God in scripture. But having said that, if you are financially blessed above and beyond your ability to obey those two commands and you have extra money in the bank collecting interest, you have extra money for recreational and trivial purposes, please use some of that money to help us survive if indeed you love the show and want us to survive.
01:13:26: We have between 30 ,000 and 40 ,000 downloads of this program every single month and yet only a tiny handful of people donate every month.
01:13:38: I would be shocked if we had over 12 people donating every month.
01:13:44: I just don't understand the contrast between 10 to 12 people donating every month and 30 ,000 and 40 ,000 people downloading the program every month.
01:13:57: Please, if you are in that number of listeners who love this show and can afford to give to keep us on the air, please do so.
01:14:05: Go to ironsharpen'sironradio .com, click support, then click to donate now. I thank all of you who have been so generous to this program, some of you going all the way back to 2005 when we first launched and others of you who are first -time donors.
01:14:21: I want to thank you. I'll never be able to adequately thank you. You are so precious to me and I am grateful to you and grateful to God for you.
01:14:30: Thank you so much for helping us remain on the air. Also, if you are not a member of a local, biblically faithful, theologically sound, doctrinally solid congregation, no matter where on the planet earth you live,
01:14:48: I may be able to help you find a church right around the corner from your own home, as I have done many times with listeners spanning the globe in our audience.
01:14:57: So, perhaps you're listening today and you live in or near Evansville, Indiana, or you have family, friends, and loved ones that live near there, or you're going to be vacationing near there, or wherever geographically you need a church, please send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail dot com and put
01:15:17: I need a church in the subject line. That's chrisarnson at gmail dot com, but I need a church in the subject line.
01:15:23: I want to thank Susan in Nairobi, Kenya, Africa, for sending in a request for church recommendations.
01:15:31: I am so thankful that providentially I was aware of three
01:15:36: Reformed Baptist churches in Nairobi, and I sent those details to Susan in Nairobi, so thank you for sending in that request.
01:15:48: Also, if you have a question for Bill Hill on the PCA General Assembly that just recently took place, chrisarnson at gmail dot com is the email address.
01:15:58: chrisarnson at gmail dot com, give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence, if you live outside the
01:16:04: USA, only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter, and I thank all of you who have been patiently waiting, well at least
01:16:11: I hope you're patiently waiting to have your questions asked and answered. We will get to you momentarily, but before the break, basically
01:16:18: Bill, I was asking for your thoughts on a very controversial controversial issue. There seems to be an effort by many
01:16:26: Christians in order to be compassionate and loving towards those involved with homosexual desires or activity to, in my opinion, go too far and make those struggles that heterosexuals have identical, as if, you know,
01:16:47: I mean, there is hardly a man alive that doesn't have some problem with heterosexual lust, therefore if that were a disqualifier for man in the ministry, then no man could possibly be in ministry, but I am of the opinion that there is a difference because one is natural, one is unnatural, and I think that we should respond to those things differently, just as if a man were to approach one of my elders and say,
01:17:15: I want to be baptized, I believe I am a Christian, but I have ongoing sexual desire for children,
01:17:24: I have ongoing, I used to be involved in the occult, and we were involved in bestiality, and I still have these desires.
01:17:30: I would want my elders to question the veracity, the integrity, the genuineness of these folks' profession and the reality of their regeneration, and I think the same goes with homosexuality.
01:17:44: But anyway, what are your thoughts? Yeah, it's an important distinction to make within the confines of the controversy or the discussion.
01:17:57: As you rightly stated, there is a natural attraction that is given to the sexes, male and, or male or female, and yes, there are only two.
01:18:14: You heard it here first, not really. Another problem we have in our world today is we can't figure out what sex we are anymore.
01:18:23: It's very bizarre. But anyway, so within natural revelation, within the
01:18:31: God -given order of things, it is completely within the bounds of normalcy, as God establishes normalcy for a man to be attracted to a woman, and vice versa.
01:18:46: That is completely normal. It's the way it's been ordered from the beginning, and of course we know that Jesus makes it very clear in the
01:18:57: Sermon on the Mount that when that attraction crosses lines and moves into mental gymnastics of a sinful nature, a sinful lust after another woman or man, not your spouse, that we now have moved from the natural order of things into an outworking of our sinful condition, and we have indeed actually sinned.
01:19:26: Whether we've committed the act or not, we have still sinned. Now, in many proponents of the so -called same -sex attraction, a
01:19:36: Christian minister will argue that men and or women wrestle with this sin.
01:19:45: I can't speak to that. I don't know that to be a fact of every single person on the planet.
01:19:52: I can only speak from my own experience, and obviously that temptation is always present, and we have a very powerful enemy.
01:20:02: But when we're talking about attraction for someone of the same sex, we're talking about a disorder.
01:20:11: We're talking about an unnatural attraction, period. We haven't even moved into the realm of lust yet.
01:20:18: The attraction itself is by definition an unnatural thing, and it's because of original sin, it's because of the fall, it's because of these matters that we have these issues in front of us in our world today.
01:20:34: And so that is the distinct difference. There's on one hand a natural attraction that men have for women and women for men, and then there's the unnatural attraction that men have for men and women have for women.
01:20:48: That in itself, beyond the fact that it goes past that point into lust, is already a simple act.
01:20:56: And this is really the core of the debate and discussion, is in fact the attraction itself for another person of the same sex itself sin.
01:21:09: And you have to answer in the affirmative that it is, and if you don't then you do violence to the created order of which
01:21:19: God established from the very beginning. And so that's really one aspect of the problem, but it goes further than that when we start moving into realms of identity and we begin to identify ourselves with any particular sin.
01:21:34: For instance, as you've already mentioned, but I might be a little more poignant about it, if we change the sin, we change the parameters of the sin, let's just take homosexuality off the table, and we replace it with bestiality or pedophilia or some other sin of a debased sort, would any congregation be happy with their minister if they were to stand in front of the church and say,
01:22:09: I identify as a pedophile, but I don't practice it? Would that be something that any congregation should be asked to accept and be ready to accept in the life of their minister?
01:22:22: I would argue strenuously that they would not, and nor should they. So we don't identify as Christians, as people who have been regenerated by the work of Christ, we don't identify with our sin, we are a new creation.
01:22:39: And the Apostle Paul, he really addresses this in 1 Corinthians 6, and when in the middle of a very lengthy discussion and debate, he begins at verse 9, he simply starts by saying,
01:22:51: Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived, neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.
01:23:08: And such were some of you. It's important to note the past tense there as he applauds it to the church at Corinth.
01:23:17: Some were living this way, some were identifying this way, some were behaving within the realm of those areas that he lists, which is not an exhaustive list, but they were living within the realm of those items.
01:23:31: And now Paul says some, as such were some of you, were that way, but now he goes on to say, but you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the
01:23:44: Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. What's his point? His point is that we no longer identify with that sin, we don't hyphenate our
01:23:55: Christianity, we are in Christ, which is one of Paul's favorite expressions in the
01:24:01: New Testament. We are hidden in Christ, our life is hidden in Him, and we are no longer our own any longer.
01:24:08: And so to identify in some capacity with a particular sin, whatever it may be, alcoholic
01:24:15: Christian, pedophile Christian, bestiality, creole, pick one, is tantamount to a denial of the atoning work of Christ.
01:24:23: And this is the problem that we're experiencing, and have been experiencing within the confines of the
01:24:29: PCA, especially as it relates to ministers of the Gospel. It's been argued by some on the other side of the argument that there's nothing they can do about the fact that they are same -sex attracted, that God made them that way in some capacity, that it's just a result of a fall and I can't do anything about it.
01:24:47: Well, that all sounds really nice, and I guess it's Twitter -worthy, but it has no theological grounding or basis whatsoever.
01:24:54: If the Gospel itself cannot change the lives of people in every capacity, then the
01:25:02: Gospel is not the Gospel. And so that's the problem that we're having.
01:25:11: And of course, as I preach the to my congregation, I regularly tell them that the
01:25:17: Gospel is the solution to whatever ails the human condition, whatever it may be, whatever circumstance you find yourself in.
01:25:23: But we don't then, therefore, as Christians, say, well, I'm a Christian, or I'm a something -Christian.
01:25:30: That is too sully the very name of Christ. In fact, I would even go so far as to argue, and this may get me in trouble with some people, but that's okay, wouldn't be the first time, but I would even go so far as to argue that it's a blasphemous comment to attach the name of Christ to any sin.
01:25:48: He has washed us from that. He has turned us aside from that. And so yes, while it is still true that I am a sinner,
01:25:57: I may be a minister of the Gospel, but I sin. I sin daily and thoughtward indeed, as our catechism clearly teaches us.
01:26:03: But I have a responsibility, of course, as a sinner who has been redeemed by Christ to daily mortify the deeds of the flesh, and to continue to press forward for the high calling that is mine in Christ.
01:26:16: And to not identify myself with the sin itself, but to continue to mortify that sin in putting to death the deeds of the body.
01:26:24: And so herein lies the problem, and when we translate this to ministers of the
01:26:33: Gospel, it changes the severity of the issue, it changes its import as significantly.
01:26:39: And I think there's an issue in which I have yet to hear an honest discussion as it relates to the question of whether a man is qualified or even providentially called of God to labor in the capacity of a minister of the
01:26:55: Gospel who cannot eradicate themselves from this particular area.
01:27:02: There is such a thing as providence when it comes to the calling of a man to the ministry.
01:27:09: And God in His kindness gives men natural gifts to exercise the office that they've been called to exercise.
01:27:17: For instance, just by way of illustration, it's a rather silly illustration, but I think it'll help make my point.
01:27:25: If I can't speak, if I'm unable to talk, if I don't have the gift of being able to speak, if God has not blessed me with the ability to use my voice, it is likely that He has not called me to be a herald of the
01:27:41: Gospel. Now, why? Because I don't have the natural gift to talk.
01:27:47: It's a little difficult to get in the pulpit and preach if I can't speak. Now, I realize that can be overcome by certain things, but generally speaking, that's an act of God's providence to call a man into the ministry.
01:27:59: He gives natural gifts to men in order for them to accomplish the calling that He places upon them.
01:28:05: The same applies to this particular area. A man who is so ensnared in this issue of homosexuality, while maybe not practicing it, but cannot remove himself from the confines of that particular sin, may not be, and I would argue, actually, probably is not called to minister the
01:28:27: Gospel. He could be a faithful church person, he's mortifying that sin, he's dealing with that sin, but he cannot fulfill the obligations and the calling of the minister of the
01:28:37: Gospel. Now, I have not heard too much discussion as far as it relates to that particular argument, but at the end of the day, the real issue is, to whom are we going to identify?
01:28:51: As Christians, we do not identify with our sin. That sin has been buried. That sin has been nailed to the cross, and while I still may wrestle with certain sin, and of course
01:29:00: I do, the fact remains that I do not identify myself with it. I identify myself with Christ, and that's where it starts, and that's where it ends, and that's where it must end for every
01:29:10: Christian, whether they're minister or not, and so this is really the root of the overture that was passed at the
01:29:16: General Assembly. I'm just going to read the language. Now, this was modified language just for people who don't know.
01:29:22: We actually came to a conclusion on Monday evening of General Assembly week with much stronger language, in my opinion.
01:29:29: I was actually happier with the original ruling. It was more to the point, it was shorter, but through course of events and other actions, we were called back into session to modify the language, and so this is the language that was passed by the
01:29:47: General Assembly in St. Louis. It simply says, officers in the Presbyterian Church in America must be above reproach in their walk and Christlike in their character.
01:29:57: Those who profess an identity such as, but not limited to, gay
01:30:02: Christian, same -sex attracted Christian, homosexual Christian, or like terms, that undermines or contradicts their identity as new creations in Christ, either by denying the simpleness of fallen desires, such as, but not limited to, same -sex attraction, or by denying the reality and hope of progressive sanctification, or by failing to pursue spirit and power to victory over their simple temptations, inclinations, and actions are not qualified for ordained office.
01:30:36: Now again, this does not speak to the member, does not speak to the pew sitter, if you'll permit me that term, does not speak to the individual who's sitting in the pews on a weekly basis.
01:30:47: It's speaking directly to the ministers of the gospel, to ordained officers. And the language is quite clear, that if one identifies himself with the sin, such as gay
01:31:00: Christian, but it's not relegated only to gay Christian, they are not suitable or qualified to be ordained ministers in the
01:31:09: PCA. Now again, this is going to take two -thirds of the presbyteries to support it, and it's going to take next year's
01:31:14: General Assembly to approve it for it to become part of law within the confines of the
01:31:21: PCA. But this is the language that is before the Church now. Now while I am not as happy, and this is just me speaking,
01:31:29: I was on the Overtures Committee, I am not as happy with that language as I was with the original. The original language was far more pointed and far more clear, and had very little room for loopholes.
01:31:41: This new language has created some loopholes, I think, unnecessarily and probably inadvertently, that may leave some wobble room when it comes to men who are currently ministers of the gospel within the
01:31:56: PCA who are holding the same -sex attraction. And so, a cursory survey of Twitter and Facebook, you'll know who those players are.
01:32:07: Their household names in the PCA at this point in time. So I'm not going to bother to say who they are, but the fact remains that we have them.
01:32:16: And the question is, does this Overture, if passed by the Presbyterians in next year's
01:32:22: General Assembly, does it actually root out what its intention is clearly there to do?
01:32:32: And that's the big question on the table right now. However, with that said, it is encouraging, at least it was to me.
01:32:41: I've been to eight General Assemblies. I've almost never been encouraged by any General Assembly. I've left almost always discouraged.
01:32:47: I am a strongly concessional minister, probably ultra -conservative in my views, and so that might explain much of that.
01:32:56: But this year was the first year I actually left somewhat encouraged by what we had accomplished. And so, at least this
01:33:04: Overture, if it passes, does speak more pointedly into the things that have troubled the
01:33:13: Church for the last three or four years. And on that it's good. I would prefer it had gone further, and in fact, when
01:33:24: Overture was reconvened, we had to vote to reconsider our original decision.
01:33:30: And in order to reconsider an original decision, it takes two -thirds of the body to support it. The motion to reconsider only passed by two votes, which is to say that a large majority of the people in the room were happy with the original language.
01:33:45: I was one of them, and I voted against reconsideration because I was concerned that this new language was going to create those opportunities for, for lack of a term, the opponents to this, to use it as a legal loophole to get around the full intention that the
01:34:05: Overture here sets for. And so the issue is simply identity. If a man who seeks ordination in the
01:34:12: PCA identifies with his sin, such as gay
01:34:17: Christian, per this Overture, he is not qualified to be an ordained officer in the
01:34:23: Church. And so on that front, it's good because it does speak, it does draw a line that wasn't there before.
01:34:33: So any argument that the PCA is going in the wrong direction as far as homosexuality and whatnot, this should put that to bed, at least put that to rest for a period of time until it runs its course.
01:34:46: But so there was a lot there, I realize, in what I've just said, but I think it could be summed up very simply.
01:34:52: One, it is natural within God's created order for a man to be attracted to a woman.
01:34:58: It just is. It's natural. It becomes, only becomes sin when it crosses the line and it turns into lust.
01:35:04: It is unnatural for a man to be attracted to another man. That attraction itself, whether it changes into lust or not, is already sin.
01:35:14: And our confessional standards make this very clear. Question 18 of the Shorter Catechism asks, wherein consists the simpleness of that estate wherein two men fell?
01:35:23: The simpleness of that estate wherein two men fell consists in the guilt of Adam's first sin, the loss of original righteousness, and the corruption of his whole nature, which is commonly called original sin.
01:35:33: And here's the main point. Together with all actual transgressions which proceed from it, any unnatural act, any unnatural desire that goes against the stated order of God is itself a sin, whether it crosses the line into lust or not is irrelevant.
01:35:54: It itself is a sin, and it needs to be mortified. But it certainly doesn't need to be identified as part and parcel of who
01:36:01: I am now as a professing Christian. Herein lies the problem that we are rustling with.
01:36:08: The other issue, Chris, is that while it is certainly true that you and I sin every day in thought, word, and deed,
01:36:14: I don't get through a day without sinning, you don't get through a day without sinning, I long for the day when that is not going to be the case, as I'm sure you do.
01:36:23: But some sins in themselves, and by reason of several aggravation, are more heinous in the sight of God than others.
01:36:29: And when you're talking about a minister of the gospel who publicly identifies with his sin, what kind of damage does that bring to the people of God and to the name of Christ?
01:36:41: Because of their position, they have the capability of creating more damage than if it were just somebody else.
01:36:52: And whether you like it or not, ministers of the gospel are held to a higher standard. It may not be fair, but it's just reality, and that's part and parcel part of the problem.
01:37:02: It is more heinous because of the several consequences and aggravations that come from it, and the damage it does both to the name of Christ and to His Church.
01:37:14: And so, again, I would prefer that our
01:37:21: Presbyteries drop the hammer on men who identify with this sin and refuse to ordain them, regardless of their appeals to various things.
01:37:36: You're just not providentially called to this. This is not something that the Lord has given you victory in. This is an area in your life that is so, so heinous in the sight of God that it creates great problems.
01:37:47: And so, these are all the issues that the PCA, I think this year at least, has gone far enough to try to address it.
01:37:58: In fact, this is the fundamental flaw, or one of a multitude of fundamental flaws with Roman Catholicism, but one of the, in regard to a similar issue, one of the fundamental flaws of the
01:38:13: Roman Catholic priesthood is that they will very eagerly, willingly ordain men into the
01:38:25: Roman Catholic priesthood who identify as homosexuals as long as they take a vow of chastity.
01:38:31: And we see where that has gotten the Roman Catholic Church, because as much as those who are critics of the scandals in the
01:38:44: Roman Catholic Church, the sex scandals, as much as they typically will describe it as a pedophile issue, in the majority it's actually priests having sexual relations with post -pubescent teenage boys.
01:39:04: It's not pedophilia for the most part, although that aspect seems to be smothered with the other crime, which even leftists, at least in our day and age right now, typically oppose pedophilia.
01:39:19: So, they would rather slam the Catholic Church with a charge of that than basically...
01:39:26: Well, I think the issue, Chris, is, and this term has been kicked around as well within the debate, is that the
01:39:33: Roman Catholic doctrine of concupiscence argues that a sin is not actually a sin until you actually commit it.
01:39:40: While they admit to the original sin, it doesn't become a sin until you actually do the sin, whatever it may be.
01:39:46: Now, that is not the Reformed view of original sin. It is not the confessional view of original sin.
01:39:52: It's not the biblical view of original sin. We are condemned as sinners whether we act on it or not.
01:39:59: We are sinners by nature. And so, what actual transgressions flow out of the fact that we are sinners.
01:40:08: But when we are redeemed of the Lord and we become a new creation, we no longer identify with that.
01:40:16: The dominion of sin has been destroyed in us, though we still have indwelling sin, though we still sin daily and thoughtward indeed, and though we wrestle with particular sins, the fact remains that we no longer identify in it or with it because of our new creation in Christ.
01:40:32: We identify with Christ and Him alone and His righteousness. And that's where we must start there if we're to understand the right understanding of the
01:40:40: Reformed view of sanctification. So that's why this phrase, this issue of progressive sanctification is mentioned in the overture, because there's a difference between definitive sanctification and progressive sanctification.
01:40:52: Most of us are very familiar with progressive sanctification. That's the process by which God is making, recreating us after His own image.
01:40:59: That's progressive sanctification. But definitive sanctification has been given to us immediately upon our inauguration through justification and adoption.
01:41:11: We have now become new creatures. We are a new creation. And so while we still are sinners, the fact remains that we don't identify with it.
01:41:22: And that is the problem. This is the core of the issue. And when we're talking about ministers of the gospel, it becomes even more sullied and more complicated because of their position and their stance and their influence that they have over a large number of people.
01:41:42: So herein is the problem. And again, I think the PCA has gone far enough right now to work to address this in a way that gives some clarity.
01:41:57: Again, I would have preferred the original language, but I'm not unhappy with this either.
01:42:05: I'm just concerned that there's going to be loopholes punched in it, or there's going to be exceptions taken regarding it.
01:42:16: And we'll still be right back where we are right now. And that's my fear. And now I hope it's misplaced.
01:42:22: Maybe it is. But it really comes down to identity. We have to go to our final break.
01:42:28: It's going to be a lot briefer than the others. And we'll get to as many of our questioners as possible.
01:42:34: Don't go away. G3 conference in Atlanta, Georgia, Thursday, September 30th through Saturday, October the 2nd on the theme,
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01:43:15: John MacArthur, Phil Johnson, Vody Balkam, Joel Beakey, and James White.
01:43:21: For details, visit G3conference .com. That's G, the number three, conference .com.
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01:48:23: that's linbrookbaptist .org. Welcome back. We have a question from Lou in Sharpsburg, Georgia, a very faithful listener and generous financial supporter of Iron Trip and Zion Radio.
01:48:38: He says, Hello, brothers. You mentioned the REVOICE conference a moment ago.
01:48:43: Can you shed some light on a conference that was held a few years ago called the
01:48:49: Living Out Conference? Was the theme similar to REVOICE, and are you and others in the
01:48:56: PCA concerned that Tim Keller took part in it? Thank you. And Pastor Bill?
01:49:05: Yeah, no, I'm sorry. I'm not familiar with it at all, so I don't know how they relate to one another.
01:49:17: So that's the answer to the first half of the question, which then makes the second half of the question.
01:49:25: Again, it's hard for me to be concerned that Tim Keller was involved, because I don't know anything about it, so I can't really honestly speak to it.
01:49:33: Well, I'm assuming that you are concerned about some other things that Tim Keller has. Yeah, but as far as the question specifically,
01:49:44: I can't really intelligently speak to it. Well, perhaps, Lou, we can have a future program with a guest that's familiar with what you are asking.
01:49:57: Thanks again for sending in a question. We have Arnie in Perry County, Pennsylvania, who says, sorry if I missed this, but I tuned in late.
01:50:09: What was the count in favor of barring those that identify as homosexuals from the ministry, and what was the count of those that supported the idea of not only ordaining, but maintaining the ordination of such men?
01:50:27: Mm -hmm. In the Oversight Committee, the vote for the wording that was presented to the
01:50:36: Assembly was overwhelming majority. It was 100, and I'm doing this from memory, but I think it was 114 to 12, which is a pretty huge majority.
01:50:49: Now, on the floor of the... Go ahead. No, go ahead. On the floor of the
01:50:54: Assembly, the vote was 14. This is rough numbers, but I'm pretty close. 1400 to 400.
01:51:02: So again, pretty substantial majority approved the wording as offered, and over to 23.
01:51:12: So you're saying that there are at least 400 men who are either in ministry while identifying as homosexuals, or they support that notion?
01:51:24: Ah, maybe. Now, I know I sound like I'm hedging my bets a little, and I almost have to.
01:51:31: Sometimes people vote against an overture, not necessarily because of the substance of it, but there could be any number of reasons why.
01:51:39: It could be that they disagree with it entirely, and I'm sure that's part of it for some.
01:51:45: It could be the language itself. They weren't happy with the language.
01:51:51: They would have preferred a different language, maybe stronger, maybe weaker, who knows. It could be that people voted against it because they don't find it necessary to have that within the confines of the
01:52:03: Constitution, because we have the Bible, we have clear statements in Scripture on the subject, and therefore, why are we adding more of this to our
01:52:13: Constitution? So there could be any number of reasons why people vote against something, and so I don't want to get into a corner where I think just because 400 people voted against it, that must therefore mean that they support same -sex attraction, or that they themselves are same -sex attracted ministers.
01:52:31: It's just a way for me to know what the motivation may be for some who voted against it.
01:52:38: Yeah, just like there are those who are vehemently opposed to the murder of unborn children who may not be in favor of so -called heartbeat laws, because they will say that the sonograms can be faked and manipulated so a heartbeat is not detected.
01:53:02: They don't think that's a good enough law, in other words. They think that the right restriction should be any pregnancy, regardless of whether a heartbeat is detected.
01:53:11: So I understand what you're saying. Yeah. We have an anonymous listener who asks, why would you want to remain in a denomination that even has such a large element of those defending homosexual identity in the pastorate that it had to come to a vote?
01:53:35: Interesting question, because I actually, years ago, told a friend of mine who was in a
01:53:43: PCUSA congregation that happened to be somewhat evangelical.
01:53:49: I told her to leave the PCUSA because they had a major vote a number of years ago on whether homosexual activity should be a reason from barring the ordination of a pastor, not even just the identity.
01:54:11: And I said, if they have to vote on that, get out. But obviously you've viewed this as not such a level of depression.
01:54:22: I don't know that I would go that far, but I will say this, and I am somewhat thankful that the question came at the end of the program, so I'm really not going to be able to elaborate the way
01:54:33: I'd like, but I will say this just in brief. I've been in the PCA since 1998. I was moved into the
01:54:38: PCA by God's providence after coming out of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church. I moved to an area of the country that did not have an
01:54:46: Orthodox Presbyterian Church, and so I joined with the PCA. So I've been involved with the
01:54:51: PCA for 98, 08, 18, what, 23 years. I've been a minister for six of those, five of those.
01:55:00: I've been a ruling elder for two and a half years previous to that. So I've been involved in one way, shape, or form with the various issues and controversies and concerns within the confines of the denomination.
01:55:12: I love the PCA. I always love what they do, and I can tell you that, and I can only speak for me,
01:55:18: I have many other friends that I've talked to about this particular question over the course of time, but I can only speak for myself, that this, for me, was a red -line issue, that if we could not get this right, and if we do not, and if it doesn't appear that we're moving and our trajectory is in the right direction, then
01:55:39: I would have to seriously reevaluate my allegiance and my alignment with the PCA and where I hold my credentials as a minister.
01:55:47: Now, with that said, there are a lot of good men in the
01:55:52: PCA that are fighting the good fight, and there's a lot of men who have taken quite a beating to try to do what is right and uphold confessional integrity and fidelity within the
01:56:05: PCA, and so sometimes it's worth fighting for.
01:56:11: Certainly, it can come to a point where you're just done, and every man's going to have to reach that point on their own, in their own mind, and be resolved in their own mind what that might look like.
01:56:25: And so that's really a short answer to a much longer, complicated question.
01:56:34: I can only tell you that there are many men who are faithfully fighting for the right things, and we're not talking about a handful of people here.
01:56:44: We're talking about 375 ,000 Christians, and so there's much to consider when it comes to just cutting loose and, you know, cutting and running and doing something different, and so I'm hesitant, but I'm not unwilling.
01:57:07: Very quickly, Ronald in Eastern Suffolk County wants to know if the
01:57:13: WOC movement was addressed at the General Assembly, and is that not a connection between the approval of homosexual identity?
01:57:22: It may be. I do know that there was an overture to study critical race theory.
01:57:29: A study committee, there was an overture to erect a study committee to study critical race theory.
01:57:35: It was shot down, pretty large, shot down. We don't need a study committee on these issues.
01:57:41: We don't need a study committee on every social issue that comes down the pipe. I mean, if we can't figure that out, that critical race theory and woke theology is just an abomination.
01:57:49: If we don't, we can't get that right, the study committee is not going to help. It just patently falters.
01:57:56: It's an enemy of the gospel. It's Marxism, and it needs to be repudiated and called for what it is.
01:58:02: Amen. And it's just an effort of the evil one. And the website for Providence Church in Evansville, Indiana is providencechurche,
01:58:13: P as in Edward, V as in victory, vasinvictory .com, providencechurchevv .com.
01:58:20: And the blog of Pastor Bill Hill is theparchment .net, theparchment .net.
01:58:26: Thank you so much, Pastor Bill, for being such an extraordinary guest, as you always are. Thank you for listening, folks.
01:58:32: And I hope you all always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater savior than you are a sinner.