Giving Tuesday, Cru Staff Speaks Out, & Matthew Hall on CRT

Giving Tuesday and Alternative Ministries to Support

Welcome to Conversations That Matter Podcast. My name is John Harris. Coming your way today is a mega edition of the podcast, not only because the world has lost its mind since Thanksgiving, I don't know if it's the turkey, football, and stuffing or what, but because there's a backlog of information.

I didn't make a podcast last week because I was traveling due to the holiday and getting some final papers done for classes and so the news cycle does not settle down and so there's just a lot of stuff to talk about.

Sometimes I think during the holidays, maybe it's going to be smooth sailing one week and I can talk about maybe a book review or a historical figure or an aspect of theology I'd love to talk about and yeah, it just doesn't happen.

Last week was nuts and this week is even crazier and today there's some really big breaking news. It may even be the biggest breaking news in the Southern Baptist Convention all year. Resolution 9 is big, but this is, well, we'll see what you think.

This has the potential to develop, but it is Giving Tuesday, so welcome to this episode on Giving Tuesday and I'm going to start off talking about Giving Tuesday and providing some alternative organizations to donate to because a lot of people tell me, I've been giving to this denomination, this organization, this evangelistic group, and now I find out they're going in a social justice direction.

I don't believe that. What's an alternative? And it's been difficult for some people and I understand that. Believe me, nothing is more frustrating than thinking that you are supporting a noble cause that you agree with only to find out they're actually doing sometimes the exact opposite of what you paid them to do, right?

And so I'm going to give you some organizations that I can personally vouch for because most of them, I know the people inside the organization and they have either taken public stands, I believe in every case they have, or they are certainly not going the way of social justice.

Most of them have taken public stands against it. So I'm going to show you that. We're going to move on from there to talk about this big breaking news that I just mentioned that's coming from Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary.

And then I want to show you an interview that I just did. It's all queued up and ready to go from the first ever whistleblower who is currently employed on staff in crew. And I don't know, he may not even like the term whistleblower.

I mean, some people would probably call him that though because he's telling his story from the bottom up. I mean, he shouldn't really be a whistleblower, but because it's so rare for someone inside crew or any of these organizations to come out and say, this is what's happening publicly, he ends up, he's kind of going to get that rap.

I'm just saying. But anyway, a brave young man who is currently on staff with crew has decided to talk with me and we did about a 40 minute interview where he's going to share his story and tell you exactly what's going on in that organization, at least how he sees it.

And he has some really good things to say about that. And so after that, we're going to move on though to some comments that Matthew Hall has made. Matthew Hall is the provost at the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, Kentucky.

He's all set to take over for Al Mohler when Al Mohler retires. And put out a blog last week on critical race theory, opposing it. And this has gotten some, well, it's been noticed. There's been some commentary on it.

And some of the commentary has been pretty decent, been good. I mean, some of it's been kind of people who are just looking at his article, reading it, and at first glance, commenting on it. And I've done a little more research on this.

I've really, I've spent some time analyzing this article and I want to tell you what I think is going on. And I think it is important. So anyway, that's the preview. That's where we're going today. And let's get started.

Organizations Not Sliding Into Social Justice

Let's, let's talk a little bit about Giving Tuesday, shall we? So yeah, there's, there's the headline. We'll come back to that. Let's start with Giving Tuesday. So here are some organizations. And you can find all the links for these organizations in the info section on this video.

And they are all 501c3, so tax exempt status. And I know a lot of you are, you know, looking at places to give your money at the end of the year. And these are organizations and all of them in some capacity, whether it's their leaders or the organization itself, have taken very public stance against the social justice movement going on within Christendom.

So International Society of Christian Apologetics. They are putting on a conference next year to tackle this, this issue. Founders Ministries, as many of you know, Tom Askell is the head of that effectively.

And they have a movie that they are putting out this December called By What Standard, which is challenging the social justice movement and the Southern Baptist Convention. The Gospel of God Ministries.

Now, I know some guys in this, and I just got to tell you, I am really a supportive person of street preachers. The ones who do it right. I'm not saying every street preacher out there. But those who do it right, who do it the way, or at least try to do it the way that Jesus and the Apostles did it.

And Gospel of God Ministries goes on college campuses. I think they're mostly in North Carolina. But they are growing and they preach the gospel and they just do a good job. I've gone out with some of the guys there and I've just been really impressed.

And so the next one is HeartCry Missionary Society. That's Paul Washer's group. And Paul Washer has signed the Dallas Statement on Social Justice. And the HeartCry Missionary Society, I've supported them for years.

Alpha and Omega Ministries, that's James White's ministry. Another, I believe now, you know what, all of these are 501c3. And I know I said that, and I'm pretty sure Alpha and Omega Ministries is as well.

I don't believe they are a for-profit. But I'm second-guessing that right now for some reason. But anyway, you can check that out if you want. Alpha and Omega Ministries supports James White and he does a lot of ministry to Muslims and Catholics and Mormons.

But he talks about the social justice movement quite a bit as well. And then of course, Enemies Within the Church. Now, Enemies Within the Church is a film and it's supposed to come out next spring. By the way, thank you for those who donated.

I'm working with them next week, flying down to Naples to do some interviews. And thank you for those who donated to that cause. We're expecting to put a really good quality video together of what's happening at First Baptist Naples.

So that's another organization that you can donate to. They are under the umbrella of a church, Cornerstone World Outreach in Iowa. And so because this church is helping produce this movie, it is a tax-exempt donation if you go to their website.

And then, okay, so I've got to explain this one. Last but not least, Grace Bible Church in Wappingers Falls, New York. So this is, people are going to say, John, isn't that your church? And yes, in a sense it is.

I don't actually currently go there. It's not my church at this moment as I'm taking classes. But it is what I would, it's a church I would consider my home church. I grew up there. My father's a pastor there, so yeah, of course there's nepotism.

I am shamelessly telling people to go and donate to Grace Bible Church in Wappingers Falls, New York. I know the people there, and man, there is not an ounce of any social justice thinking whatsoever there.

They're a smaller church, I'd say 120, 130, 140 people on a Sunday. But a very vibrant ministry, especially to the Culinary Institute of America. There's a guy there who is actually pretty connected with Way the Master, who's a professor at the culinary, and he does a lot of good work with the students there.

And so, yeah, just funding for food and tracks, and just the expenses that they have right now. They're doing some site plan work, and there's thousands of dollars they're paying. And I know I was talking to my dad over Thanksgiving, and he was saying financially, it's getting stretched a little thin right now.

And so anyway, if you are in a church, and I know there's many in this situation that started to go the social justice direction and you've left, and you're looking for churches and you don't have a place, you're in a unique situation to give your money, please consider Grace Bible Church in Wappingers Falls, New York.

They are in a sea of progressivism and secularism up there in New York, but doing a good work, I'd say. And so anyway, that is that, Forgiving Tuesday, I just wanted to make that announcement. Now, what's going on at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary?

Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary and Robert Oster Lopez

I'm going to be brief with this, and the reason I'm going to be brief is because Robert Oster Lopez, who is the center of this story, is actually booked to come on with me in the next podcast. So we're going to be hearing a lot more about this, but long story short, this is a story from Capstone Report today, shock, Baptist Seminary fires conservative Latino over belief Jesus changed sinners, professor told not to discuss sex abuse or homosexuality, Southwestern told Lopez that the URLC, that's Russell Moore's group, was unhappy with his teachings.

Now, let me just kind of cut through all that. Robert Oster Lopez was on my program, you can look it up, a couple months ago, and he shared his testimony. He was raised with two lesbian moms, I believe it was 10 years, he was in a homosexual lifestyle, and God delivered him from it, not just from damnation and hell, God delivered him from his lifestyle.

He has a wife, he has kids, he does not believe there is a gay orientation, and I've talked about this before, this idea that's being pushed by the URLC, revoice, living out, it's that there's this fixed, innate gay orientation that people have, and God may not deliver you from it when you become a Christian, you shouldn't expect that, you should just live in your singleness for the Lord, and don't look for that.

Well, Robert Oster Lopez didn't buy into that, he did look for that, and in his mind, it's kind of absurd, it's like taking any other sin, like let's say, take racism and say, well, you're a racist, but now you're saved, and don't expect God to deliver you from that, that's just your orientation.

Robert Oster Lopez says, well, where is that in scripture? That's not a biblical idea, that's not biblical doctrine of man, you are who God designed you to be. And so, this is the message that he puts forward, and this is not the message that evangelicalism is putting forward in general now, which is a huge switch, like in the last five years, and it certainly correlates with all the states who are banning reparative therapy.

So if this is true, guys, if Robert Oster Lopez was literally just fired for upholding what Christians have believed for thousands of years, I mean, they'd never conceived of this orientation business, that this was like a fixed thing, they never saw that in scripture, certainly, and Robert Oster Lopez is fired, it doesn't matter if the idea that homosexuality is this fixed innate orientation, if that's not in your doctrinal statement, it is now, even if it's unwritten, because you're functioning that way, and I've said this, that the social justice movement is a danger because it does threaten our doctrinal statements, not because right away it's going to rewrite them, but because actions speak louder than words, and there is a new orthodoxy, like you can disagree at a lot of these places on almost anything, eschatology, soteriology even, like the Calvinist-Arminian debate, there's all sorts of things, you can disagree in many cases on social justice, look how many professors signed the Dallas Statement, like one, in the Southern Baptist Convention, you just don't do it.

So all that to say, if this is true, and we're going to find out more when, Lord willing, when Robert Oster Lopez is on the next podcast doing an interview with me, this is big news. This has the potential to really develop, and boy, we're in deep trouble if this is true.

Crew, Social Justice, and the Gospel

So now, while we're waiting for that to develop, though, let's talk a little bit about Crew. I'm going to share my interview with Jesse, who is a staff worker at Crew. Jesse, thank you so much for joining me on this program.

Yeah, no problem. So I want to start, Jesse, at the beginning, let's just go sequentially through your experience at Crew. I know you told me you were saved at 18, why don't you tell us a little bit about that?

Going into college, I went in as a philosophy major to answer all the questions that I had. I didn't want to wind up in some desk job hating my life after college, and so I went to liberal arts. Now I kind of wish I had some sort of sciences.

But anyway, so probably the second week of school, I'm in my friend's dorm room playing Halo 2, that dates me there, and these two guys knock on the door, and they were looking for that guy's roommate who had filled out one of the contact cards for Crew.

And they said, hey, we're from Crew. We started talking. They said, what's your major? I said philosophy. They said, oh, who's your favorite philosopher? I'm like, I don't know, man. Like, I just got here.

It's my second week of school. I don't know too much. And after that conversation, they said, well, we're from Campus Crusade for Christ. That's what it was called back then. I said, oh my gosh, you guys are Christians?

If I had known that, I wouldn't have let you in the room. And yeah, that was my posture toward Christianity at the time. And a few months went by. I wasn't really finding my answers, even though it was only, you know, Philosophy 101 or a couple other classes.

I finally read Mere Christianity by C .S. Lewis. And as I'm finishing the last page, one of those guys comes back, knocks on my door, and we started talking about that. He shared the gospel with me, and probably within a week, I gave my life to the Lord.

So, yeah, I love, obviously, it's had a huge impact on me. Those guys discipled me, taught me about getting plugged into a church, because I pretty much came to Christ, like, in my dorm room, explained, you know, what it means to do that, and met my wife at one of the summer missions, and now we have a daughter.

And I owe a lot to the crew and the guys who invested in me. Yeah, that's absolutely wonderful.

I love hearing that story. And that's one of the reasons I love campus ministry, is, you know, people like yourself who are trying to figure out what life's about, you being a philosophy major at that point, trying to answer those ultimate questions.

And that's such a great time to just share the message of Christ into that environment where people are already looking for answers. So what happened then? Over the next couple years, you know, you somehow became on staff with crew, you're working for them.

And I know you saw my video, the montage, at least, of what happened at the summer conference with crew, and you started having some reservations about some of the things you were hearing. Can you tell us about some of that?

Yeah. So when I graduated in 2011, I worked for a transportation company for a few years. My wife and I, we always knew we wanted to join staff, and so we finally saved up a ton of money to join staff.

And then, so the first conference that we went to was in 2015. And I remember they had made kind of their own in-house Twitter application, but you could change your name and your photo at any time. And this was probably, for me, my first experience into, I guess, what you could call the social justice movement in crew.

And I remember I made an innocent comment. I was up in the rafters during the conference, and I heard a flute. And so on this fake Twitter, I tweeted out something about like, hey, you think she could play Lord of the Rings?

And it turned out that it was from like, it was a song from some culture. And I just started getting blasted about how insensitive I was being and I was like, what's going on here? I didn't even know that this was, I didn't even know that this was like a ancient, you know, like cultural thing that I was being offensive toward, you know.

And so that was the first time that I started hearing about those things and then getting implemented into like the ground. And so there's kind of a difference between what is, what happens like your day to day on staff with crew isn't, you know, you're not super tied or connected to what's going on corporately, like at the top of the corporation, you know.

And so the conferences are where they sort of try to set direction and cast vision. But yeah, my day to day, I'm working with my friends, my coworkers, and, you know, we're out there on campus sharing the gospel.

So there's this disconnect, you know, between those two things. But at that point is when, probably about two years ago, I started to feel it a little bit more with some books that were being encouraged.

I just want to be clear, the comments you made on Twitter about the flute, what year was that? 2015. And what, was this at a conference then?

Yeah, it was at the National Conference, it was crew 15. To be, yeah, and it was like their, they had created their kind of own social platform app.

Okay, that, so it wasn't like, so this was crew staff, other crew staff kind of going after you for that comment. And, and then after, so that makes sense. 2015. And then after that, you've seen more, you said books, were the books, how are the books coming in?

Were they just advertised on crews website? Or how did you hear about these questionable books?

We heard from some speakers that said, Hey, I think that this is a good book that you could read as a team. The particular book was Why Are All the Black Kids Eating in the Cafeteria Together? I think that's the name, it's kind of long.

But I remember even like, before the book even started in the preface, it talked about changing the definition of racism. So, where she gave the example of how, where sexism is mostly males being sexist toward females, we ought to view sexism as like males being sexist towards females, and understand that definition as that.

And so, so in a sense, she was saying you can't, it doesn't go the other way. And then she tied that, this author tied it into same thing with racism. Because racism is mostly the majority white culture, being racist toward minorities.

We then need to understand that racism can essentially only be white people. And when I read that, I was like, what is going on here? And I brought it up to my team, and they're like, yeah, that when you kind of, it's word is very, like flowery, you know, in a way that is almost palatable.

But then when you really unpack it, you're like, this is what you're saying, is only white people can be racist. It's a, it was kind of, yeah, it's kind of difficult.

You though, sounds like, correct me if I'm wrong, you recognized maybe where this is going partially, perhaps because of your background, I don't know. And it sounds like others in the group were just kind of nodding along, or at least willing to accept this idea, which, I mean, to accept the idea that only certain groups can be racist, that contradicts the idea that sin is the problem of every man, right?

So, I mean, you're tinkering now with the DNA of what sin is. But anyway, you saw this. And what was the reaction? I mean, do you think I'm right in my assumption there? Were the other people just kind of willing to accept that?

Or was there pushback from others in the group?

I could probably tell you that 99 out of 100 staff members, if I asked them, said, what's Marxism? Or like, add whatever, you know, that sort of thing, they don't know what you're talking about. They just say, I don't know.

And so what happens is, it's like sheep being led to slaughter, where they see everyone else going along with it. They're not really sure what is going on. And in some ways, I feel like that sheep that's looking out and saying, hey, if we if we're accepting some of these ideologies, this is leading down a bad path.

But it's difficult to communicate that because and yeah, I hesitate now thinking some of my watchers, like they're really smart. It's just the background. Right. And so in a lot of ways, I think that they're unaware of what's going on.

And in a lot of ways, I was unaware and had to do tons and tons of research to understand and like what's going on. So now it is trying to figure out one of the one of the things is, how are you like subtly or unconsciously racist?

And there's this one of the tests going around the unconscious bias test, which I.

Haven't heard of this from now.

OK, yeah. Look it up. Jordan Peterson has a good comment on. It's basically a test. My wife had to take this recently. It's basically a test that tries to show, tries to reveal. To you how you are unconsciously biased or.

Certain sexes, races, cultures, religions, things like that, but. And then what some companies are even doing is they'll take your test results and depending on your score, you might have to go to a sensitivity training.

Is this happening in crew? Well, my wife had to say she was asked to take the test recently as a part of this leadership training. And and so here's one of the things I think that. And again, this is kind of going back to I think Christians are easily manipulated into some of these things because we're told that and it's true, we're wicked, we're sinners, our hearts are not, we're not made whole.

Although we are made righteous, we're still being sanctified. And part of our repentance is being humble, admitting those things and repenting. Right. And so I think and even the people administering it are like, oh, this is a way that we can practice repentance.

But they're not understanding where did that come from? Again, it's coming out of like far left liberal universities. This test was created. I forget exactly who. But then even the like the retestability on it is not good.

It's it's essentially by psychologists, pandas.

This is not a good test. What does this look like then in crew? Like if your wife didn't score well, does she have to go to like the Lenz's Institute or is it kind of not developed quite yet? They're just using the test because it's the cool thing to do.

I think it is the latter. I think it's like, oh, this is something that's really interesting and will open your eyes to ways that you are biased against people. But again, it's not even like your conscious bias.

It's your unconscious bias.

What have you seen other than the test and this book, sociology book? Have you seen other speakers come through your particular area and push some of these.

Ideas over the summer? I had I was tasked with taking. It was called Biblical Interpretation, and it was paired with another class that was biblical communication, and we took one verse and we kind of worked with that for the four weeks and we were in class for two and a half hours.

Some of them were it was like first half lecture and then the second half. It was a large group lecture, and then you broke off second half into smaller groups, about 10 people, and you had a TA or a coach.

And I don't think that this was necessarily a reflection of everyone because I had other people that said, hey, my coach is great, facilitated conversations really well. But my particular coach. I feel like he just had.

I mean, I want to say it felt like a very open bias toward white people, and it was kind of difficult. That's that's hard for me to say, but it came out in one particular moment where. So the class is supposed to be about interpreting and communicating, so we're pulling things from Brian Chappell's book, Christ Centered Preaching and learning about the fallen condition and Christ's redemptive solution.

And we were we listened to this one sermon that was given by a black preacher, and it was right after a shooting against a black person. And so it was a very emotionally charged sermon, and I don't think anyone can watch it without feeling that, you know, just feeling emotional toward it.

But at the same time, like I said, going back to my philosophy background, I thought we were then going to essentially see if he was true or intellectually honest with the passage. But it didn't go there.

We had about 15 minutes left in the class once it was done. And. And I think appropriately so, if you're like it was such so strong in terms of its impact that a lot of people. And especially white people in the room, we're talking about how they felt really sorry and one girl was crying, she said, like, what can we do to fix these injustices?

And my coach's response was. This is a paraphrase, but this is the almost essentially what she said. Was. That is a very Western response is how do I fix it? So right now, you like the best thing you can do is to just lament and essentially sit in it and be listeners.

And that's that was something that was going back all the way to the 2015 conference where I remember my wife was like, what so what are we going to do? Where's where are we going? And I was like, maybe we'll find out the next one.

But each year, it is more and more of this just not trying to say this is what we're going to do. But like, we're just listening and we're lamenting. And so afterward, there were about one minute left in class.

The coach. Stands up. And says. I want to thank you all. She said, as a person of color. As the only person of color in the room, I want to thank you all who shared. And I want you to know that those of you who didn't.

Your silence says more than your words, and that was like it.

And then the class ended. So you have sociological ideas coming in and dividing people up into these different groups and making certain groups feel guilty. And I mean, it sounds to me like, you know, no one no one was probably even aware or tried to challenge some of the narrative.

It was more just like, what can we do? And that's not even good enough to ask that question. I mean, look, if I was sitting there, I would probably want to say, like, look, it was a horrible thing that happened.

I don't know what shooting, you know, was being referred to in the sermon you all had to watch. But I'd be like, OK, you know, the statistics that there's been a number of studies on this and, you know, the disparity is more often assumed than actually proven.

Usually, I remember I was reading, I think it was in The Washington Post maybe two or three years ago. There was one, I think it was an Ivy League school did a study on this and they found out, you know what, it was pretty, pretty even per capita, but it actually was a little more slanted towards white people.

White people were killed, unarmed white people more often than police officers. And then the. See, I'm catching myself. I'm going to say person of color. I was going to say the black demographic. I mean, say, yeah, I mean, I don't know what I mean.

I'm not abiding by those. Yeah. Yeah. Because I don't even know what person of color necessarily means. Is it, you know, does it expand to include Asian-Americans and I don't know. Anyway. But anyway, all that to say, like, they're not advancing this argument based on like actual studies or statistics to say, OK, here's a problem in this country.

And then, you know, giving rock hard proof to trace it back, trace it back to this is a bias within this police department. You know, look, this this police officer said he wanted to go and murder minorities or like they had nothing like that.

It's just kind of an assumed idea that the police are they're out to get minorities and and and then heaping guilt upon majority culture people that they are somehow they're guilty for this. They're helping, you know, perpetuate attitudes that cause this.

And and this is just what you're describing is just so different than the gospel. And that's the I think the issue that you have and that I have is that there's no hope in this. You know, what can we do?

We can go preach the gospel. Right. No matter which way the disparities are or who's sinning against whom, we can go and we can preach the gospel. That's changing hearts is the way that we change the culture.

And I just don't hear that as much anymore. And and so what you're sharing about what you're noticing in your local crew staff is it's indicative of I think of what's happening in Christianity in general is, you know, the gospel is the cure here for any of the ailments that we have.

And this idea that you just got to sit in guilt.

I want to share one more thing that happens and. And it's evidence of how. Like some of the mentality and the mindset that are being influenced by some unethical ideologies creeping in and it's practical like application or like or experienced whatever, like what can happen?

And here's one thing that happened was there's this guy. I said there's lectures beginning of the class and he's probably like 50 in his late 50s white American staff member. And he gave he was trying to talk about biblical interpretation or communication at this point.

And it didn't work. But he tried to use this analogy of like bringing things over from Canada. And the idea was that some things culturally back in, you know, first century Christianity or even, you know, further back than that, they won't like cross the bridge into our culture today.

Right. And that makes sense. You know, that's why we have hermeneutics because we're trying to understand like, OK, what do they mean by this? And that's what he's trying to say. Right. He used analogy of bringing food over from Canada and how some things can't come over.

And he went on for like 10 minutes about us. And it was like an analogy that wasn't working. I felt bad for him. But then at one point. So he said bananas. And at one point he said that there was a student and he gave an actual like when he tried to go to Canada, there were two students he brought.

But one of the students only had like working or student. Um. What is it when you come to work at Visa? Yeah, yeah, yeah. He has a student credit card. Yeah. But he couldn't leave the United States. And so he was saying so he couldn't cross the bridge.

And then the next day, I don't even know how this happened. The next day he gets someone says, hey, we want to address what happened yesterday. And I'm like, what happened yesterday? And so this guy, he's going to come up and speak.

So he gets up and for about 20 minutes gives an apology for talking about how one of his students couldn't cross the border from Canada to America because it would evoke emotions of like people's families not being able to get into America or something and how it was culturally or it was just insensitive.

And then what he said was, I'm sorry that this had offended some people because apparently some people had spoken up. So then my teacher, the coach, when we broke off, she was like, I just want to talk about how you guys experienced that.

And. I was surprised to see that people were like, yeah, you know, I think it's really good that he apologized. And again, going back to Christian culture, when you confess, it's like a good thing. But I said.

My response was, I said when he talked about that, I actually thought it was good because it reminded me of how hard it was for my family to come into the country and some of the things that you had to work through through to get like I have relatives who they had to wait 12 years to be able to come into the country.

Then once they got into the country, they had to work for five years and then they could apply for their citizenship. So it brought up to mind those things. And I talked about that. And I don't think she liked that because it wasn't, you know, basically bashing this guy.

And and so she said that she thought was wrong because he it seemed like he was comparing people, this ethnic minority to food and items. So it was like objectifying. This is this is what she felt was that he was objectifying an ethnic minority.

And then said, because this guy was like, I think he was a Chinese. He said that he talked about bringing bananas over and banana and a derogatory term for an Asian-American who is yellow on the outside is her words and but like acts white and is white middle and said that she doesn't think his apology was good enough because he didn't apologize for what he said.

He apologized for offending people and that his apology was essentially not strong.

Enough. Is this someone in your staff that's saying this? No, no. So this isn't mine.

This is like, you know, this is part of we have. Partnerships with like Reform Theological Seminary, Dallas Theological Seminary. Right. But but who has its own theological development that we partner and can get real seminary credits.

So it's like a legitimate seminary, essentially. And she was part of the theological development team. Yeah, I think that. The like I said, these certain ideologies that are kind of coming in are. Negatively impacting the way that we interact with one another.

So tell me about the conversation you had with another staff members that you had a really good. Oh, yeah, I totally forgot about that.

I'm so sorry. You had me going on a rant there. That's right. So so after all that, my buddy and I, we were talking about this. And here's what we piece together is that. It seems as if. There is. OK, you are guilty by association if you're white and you live in America for anything that has been done to an ethnic minority group.

And one of the ways. Right. And we saw that at the conference. There was a woman who stood up at crew 19. She said. She was white. She was talking to this to African-American speakers. And she said, I trace my ancestry.

Like my you know, we had no part in slavery or in that systemic racism. Like what I feel really bad, but like, what can I do or how am I responsible for this? And she said, well, you benefit from any sort of systematic race racism and that therefore you are guilty by association.

And that idea of you are guilty just because of your color, because somehow you would have had, you know, a benefit. Now you need to absolve that. Right. And so you. If you do the work of lamenting, listening, doing whatever you can to reach out and have this racial reconciliation.