August 23, 2017 Show with Chris Rosebrough on “Hillsong Church Examined: Are There Serious Doctrinal Problems Down Under Their Music?”

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Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

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Carlisle, Pennsylvania It's iron sharpens iron a radio platform on which pastors

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Christian scholars and theologians Address the burning issues facing the church and the world today

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Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another

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Matthew henry said that in this passage quote We are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with And directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour

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And we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions Now here's our host

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Chris Good afternoon, cumberland county, pennsylvania lake city, florida

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And the rest of humanity living on the planet earth. We're listening via live streaming On iron sharpens iron radio .com.

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This is chris arnzen your host of iron sharpens iron radio Wishing you all a happy wednesday on this 23rd day of august 2017

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And i'm delighted to have on this program today somebody that i've wanted to have on iron sharpens iron radio for years

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And now we finally providentially have that opportunity. His name is chris roseborough He is a confessional lutheran and pastor of kongsvinger lutheran church in oslo, minnesota

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He also runs pirate christian radio and hosts the fighting for the faith podcast

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Today we're going to be addressing hillsong church examined. Are there serious doctrinal problems down under their music?

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And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time to iron sharpens iron radio chris roseborough

01:58

Thanks for having me chris. Yes I say that uh Somewhat tongue -in -cheek having you on for the first time because we just had you on a few seconds ago and or minutes ago

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And there was technical problems. So we had to restart the whole program So hence all of you listening, uh, that's why we're kind of restarting from the beginning here.

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But um The we have a bunch of things to talk about today But before we get into the heart of our subject

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I would like you to explain What a confessional lutheran is I happen to be a confessional baptist

02:30

My co -host the reverend buzz taylor is a confessional Presbyterian and you are confessional lutheran.

02:35

Tell us what that means Sure. Um, so in talking about being a confessional lutheran, you have to put a modifier on the word lutheran nowadays

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Due to the fact that there are so many people who call themselves lutherans who actually do not believe at all

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What lutherans have historically believed taught and confessed? so when we talk about our confessions lutherans hold to a body of confessions that you can find in a in a work called the book of concord and Basically that would include uh confessions like the apostles creed the nicene creed

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And the athanasian creed as well as the augsburg confession the small catechism the formula of concord

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And in art and basically doctrinal writings like that whereas today so -called lutherans

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Uh that are very liberal. They deny the inerrancy of scripture. They ordain impenitent homosexuals

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Uh, they also uh, you know ordain women and things like that. Although they call themselves lutheran

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There's nothing lutheran about them, uh, yet alone christian. And so by saying i'm a confessional lutheran

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I'm making a distinction between uh, what I believe teach and confess as as compared to What somebody like that who is a liberal would believe teach and confess so that you can basically say aha

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So lutherans historically have not believed that you can ordain a homosexual things like that and we say absolutely not so that that's

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Really why I make the distinction so that uh that people do not uh put me in with that other group of people who call

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Themselves lutheran, but there's nothing like I said lutheran about them at all Yes, and uh, you are as I mentioned, uh, just a few minutes ago or about a minute ago

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You are the pastor of the kongs vinger lutheran church in oslo, minnesota.

04:26

Tell us about kongs vinger Sure kongs vinger lutheran church is a small rural congregation out in oslo, minnesota

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And it was planted about 140 years ago by uh, norwegian immigrants

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Uh who uh, you know came from norway and planted themselves in this area and um

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Yeah, we in my congregation. It's a small tiny congregation Uh a pretty hefty percentage of the people who

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I serve as pastor Are uh are farmers and people who live here on the land and are you know directly, uh related

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Uh to the original founders of the church And uh, and yes, it's true.

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There are some of the people in my congregation. They actually enjoy for whatever reason ludicrous, although I Can't imagine why anybody would like that?

05:14

Well, you know something I happen to be uh norwegian

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Uh, at least on my father's side uh at one point during a um,

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A debate that I had orchestrated Between my friend. Dr. James r white of alpha omega ministries and father mitch pacwa a roman catholic priest

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Uh during the opening announcements, I announced to the audience uh that I was uh a norwegian and polish

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And I said that means that my ancestors were vikings that raided their own villages

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And after the debate father mitch pacwa punched me very Hard in the arm, but anyway, but he he actually thought it was pretty funny.

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Um but uh, but having said that my ancestors, uh, We have an interesting connection here because my ancestors

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Fled scandinavia in the 19th century because they were baptists being persecuted by the lutheran church state

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And uh, they were uh, the lutheran government was uh, the lutheran run government was being was uh arresting and fining baptists who were who were performing the uh,

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Baptisms in the lord's supper without a lutheran minister's license So I didn't even find this out.

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I was raised roman catholic. I didn't even find this out until my Uncle did our family tree did a lot of investigative research actually flew to norway and spent time there, but uh the um

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My father was a baptist my father's father. I should say was a baptist who converted To episcopalianism because his wife my grandmother was episcopalian and my father who was episcopalian

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Uh eventually when I was a teenager converted to catholicism so I did not even know about my baptist roots until I had become a baptist after my uh regeneration my rebirth

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Uh, so this was quite an interesting fact, but that that should not hinder our our brotherly discussion today

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Yeah, no, not not at all I First of all, I am no fan of like mixing, uh, any church and the state together uh that that that always is a bad formula and I think it's important to note that the uh,

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The lutheran the state church of norway the lutheran state church is as liberal as they get now

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And it's just a complete and utter train wreck. You don't mix church and state like that. It doesn't ever work out

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Well, so in fact if they're not already they'll be arresting people in norway for different reasons other than the the good ones

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Yeah um but uh well, we have uh

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Pirate christian radio to discuss tell us about pirate christian radio Sure, uh pirate christian radio, uh is an online internet based christian talk radio station

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Uh that I started almost 10 years ago be 10 years in june of next year

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And it was started as a result of The drift that I had noticed was taking place in kind of mainstream christian radio over our lifetime chris we've seen you know, you know christian radio kind of go from actually having deep theological discussion to Kind of watering things down especially kind of on the bigger, uh on the bigger radio networks and uh, and so about 10 years ago,

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I actually sat down with a fellow who worked for salem broadcasting and uh and was talking to him about that major change and Uh in the course of our conversation,

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I pitched a couple of uh ideas to him for uh for radio programs Uh, one of which was kind of uh, the the early prototype of my program which is called fighting for the faith

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And literally the fellow, uh, you know sat across the table from me and he said yeah. No becky wouldn't like that And I I kind of looked at him, you know dumbfounded as I said, who's becky, you know

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I was thinking maybe becky was like, you know, some you know, like the vice president of programming Ha ha

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And he said becky is our target as our target audience And he said becky is uh is uh a woman in her late 20s early 30s

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She's got 2 .4 Kids and uh, and she's interested in programs that you know

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Uh that address the you know, the things that she is uh, things are most important in life

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And I thought since when did you know, uh, you know a theoretical woman

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Decide what is appropriate for christian radio as opposed to the written word of god

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And um after that meeting with this fellow It was at that point. I decided I needed to put together a pirate

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Station and with the idea that a pirate station is a station that broadcasts from outside of the system

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Uh in order to you know to basically, you know, fix the problems that existed in uh in christian broadcasting

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And and so hybrid christian radio at that point began as a as a as a concept I eventually put a business plan around it and then launched it on june 30th in two in 2008 and um and literally from the day we started

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I mean we've had a a Significant and growing audience. Um, and the nice thing about it is is that uh, it's given it

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I've made a point of like putting together programs that Include confessional lutherans in the mix because confessional lutherans if you ever meet any of them, they're they're quite insular

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They're they're they like talking amongst themselves, but they're very awful at like talking to other christians and other denominations

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And so, uh, it's been nice to be able to actually have the ability to have some confessional lutherans

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Engage in in a broader, uh christian discourse, uh via pirate christian radio

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So that's uh, that's been just a fantastic project that i've been able to work on over the years.

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Well, praise god for that and uh, just to give uh some credit to salem, uh,

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They do have some good programming on there. They have john macarthur and r .c. Sproul and allister begg and there are some theologically sound programs on there, but I have to tell you a story very briefly that I think that you will find humorous because it's

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Nearly identical to the one you had I after uh hosting iron sharpens iron for several years

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I got a con I got a phone call from the salem station that I worked for for 15 years uh

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They they had uh, some familiarity some familiarity with me because even though they were new in management

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Since I had a very long history with them Uh, they knew that I was always one of their top one or two salespeople every month

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And I began filling in as a talk show host for the in -house host andy anderson

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Uh who is now with the lord? I began filling in for him a lot because they discovered that I had a great ability to book brilliant guests and write questions for the host

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So when he began to go on vacation or if he was sick He would say why don't you get chris arnson to fill in for me? So I uh caught the bug and I When I left salem,

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I started my own program And they called me the new Program manager said that we'd like to meet with you about your show.

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We'd like to Possibly add it to the lineup So I went to new jersey where they were located at the time the headquarters

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And at least for wmca affiliate that's where they were located and um uh

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The program manager said to me you know, um Uh, I I think that you're ready to do a uh host a program of your own on on salem on wmca here

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But I gotta tell you I hate your show and I said, excuse me He said yeah, you you you interview a theologian

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Theologian for two hours. Are you kidding me? Boring I said, okay, really?

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Well, what would you like me to do? He said what you what we would like you to do. First of all, he said

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I hate interview programs Uh, but if you're going to do an interview program, you've got to do what david letterman or jay leno do

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They have a guest on for tops four minutes And then when they go to the station break break if the guest is really

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Interesting and exciting they'll have a person on for another four minutes tops and then he's gone.

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He or she is gone I said so You're comparing truths that involve eternal life

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With what some moronic celebrity has to say about an anecdote that happened on the

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Set of a movie they were filming you're like comparing these two things I said this doesn't even make any sense.

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I said so what do you want me to do? He said well what we really want you to do is just take calls from our listeners

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The average listener as you know being in radio is a married woman 25 to 54 with children in the household

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And we want you to just take phone calls and chat with them about their daily problems and without Quoting the bible too much

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Do a kind of what would jesus do in their situations without getting theological or too biblical

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So I said so you want me to do a one -man version of the view is that what you're saying

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I said number one if my wife Heard that I was giving advice to women.

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You'd be able to hear her laughing all the way from long island, new york And number two i'm not a pastor uh number three i'm not a licensed counselor

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Uh, why on earth would you want me to be doing that? This is ridiculous. I said thanks, but no thanks

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But it was very interesting that you had the becky story because it seemed to be Very similar to my experience

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Yeah, yeah, and and that's funny enough the same problem that You see in kind of the wider broader appeal christian

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Um radio is also the same problem that's impacting evangelical christianity kind of as a whole uh, this abandonment of this of the idea of an in -depth understanding of god's word and being theological in our sermons and everything switching over to kind of Entertainment and stuff that's relevant to making my life better.

16:32

I mean that that that's even it's impacting Uh churches now, it's it's so bad

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And by the way, I uh have to apologize to my co -host the reverend buzz daylor I have not introduced him yet because I did the first time we went on the air

16:47

But since we had technical difficulties and returned to the air, I Completely forgot to welcome him to the studio here, but I am still here

17:00

All right, and uh, even though I found out you're norwegian Well, why would you have a problem with norwegians what on earth so with your ancestors raided by my ancestors

17:11

Oh the vikings, of course, of course I do have a question though. Um How do you listen to pirate christian radio?

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uh, you you go to pirate christian radio .com and Click on the listen now button and you can listen to our live stream

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Or you can look at our programming lineup and you can get the information on which podcast is subscribed to Or available at pirate christian radio .com.

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So, you know that that's the main way of listening And uh, you know, we we have about eight hours of talk radio new content every uh weekday

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That we loop three times because of our international audience One of the things I've discovered in But doing radio is that the average person who listens to talk radio never listens for more than six hours a day

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So we uh, we have eight hours of original programming for the person who is like the outlier but by looping it three times it makes it so that Somebody in a cubicle in sydney australia can get our programming day just as well as somebody in america

18:12

Or as well as uh, you know, johannesburg. So yeah, but we have people listening literally around the world

18:17

Yeah, as do we here in iron sharpens iron it's amazing, uh the global audience that we have and uh going from the ridiculous to the sublime meaning from some of the nonsense we were talking about in christian radio to Fighting for the faith your program.

18:34

Uh, let us know something more about that Sure. Um, I do a two -hour apologetics program, uh, you know five days a week and the name of it is fighting for the faith and um, this is um, the best way

18:48

I can describe it is that uh, it is The theological equivalent of waterboarding or the ice bucket challenge

18:56

Um what I do on my program is we actually name names and we play sound bites

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And we do comparative work where you know, so, you know somebody like a brian houston, you know, we actually

19:08

Listen to a portion of the sermon or the sermon in its entirety And we compare the things that he's saying

19:16

Um that god wants us to believe or god wants us to do we compare how he handles scripture to god's word in context using just basic sound hermeneutical principles like context and And words meaning things, uh, you know, it you know

19:32

When you look at so that's the idea and over and again My program demonstrates that the steady diet of doctrine

19:40

That is being fed to evangelical christians on a on a daily basis Uh from many of the most popular guys now i'm not talking about macarthur or bagger people like that I'm talking about, you know, the rick warren the uh, the brian houston's

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Uh, the the kind of the seeker driven Megachurch pastors as well as many people within the charismatic movement that the steady diet of doctrine that they're being fed

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Is not even biblical. It's not what scripture says and I would even argue It's as man -made and mythological

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Today in many parts of evangelicalism as it was in medieval catholicism

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You know, it's weird because you ask the average the average, you know megachurch goer.

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Do you believe in praying to the saints? Do you believe in purgatory? Do you believe? Uh, you know in things, you know, that are distinctly roman catholic that you know

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The perpetual virginity of the virgin mary and they'll sit there and say of course, we don't believe that And you ask them why and they'll say well because it's not in the bible

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But at the same time many of the doctrines they are believing are as man -made and aberrant

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As the belief in purgatory or prayers to the saints or indulgences. It's just it's aberrant, uh because It's as unbiblical as any of that stuff

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But they they tolerate it because their favorite guy is the guy teaching them and that's a problem

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I mean, it's it really really is a problem So the purpose of fighting for the faith is to really encourage people to stop and actually apply some biblical discernment uh to what it is that they're listening to and don't think that just because somebody is

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Popular that they have a megachurch with five multi -sites Uh that just because they're popular or maybe they they have a book out that sold

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Millions of copies that somehow that that exempts them from you know from actually having their doctrine

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Criticized and examined biblically and so the idea is that that that's the gist behind fighting for the faith is to really kind of Just point out to people that many of the populace many of the popular pastors and preachers and prophets and prophetesses

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They're not actually teaching the truth of scripture at all in any meaningful way It's actually quite sad and as a result of that because we play soundbites in context we name names, uh, it's uh, it does have a tendency to uh,

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Get people a little irked and I always tell people don't listen with with an open mind always listen with an open bible

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And it's so fun after the you know, you know literally being on the air now for almost 10 years I've received you know, literally tens of thousands of emails that begin with the words like I used to think you were the biggest

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Jerk in the whole world that you were conceited and incomplete And uh, and so I took your challenge

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I opened up the bible to see if you know to do the comparative work with you and Wouldn't you know, uh, you were right and I was wrong

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And so we're we I was writing to let you know that my my wife and my kids and my family and I we joined this

22:51

Church or that church and we're so happy because we now know Uh, you know what it means to actually listen with the sermon to know what biblical preaching sounds like and uh, and we're no longer, uh, you know under the uh, the the craziness that we were under so I mean

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Literally, we we get so many of those emails now every week, but when we started off it took a while or we got those emails

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But now we get them on a very regular basis Great and uh one more thing.

23:20

Um, I understand that you're not in the missouri synod uh,

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I should say that kongsvinger lutheran church in oslo minnesota is not in the missouri synod, which is the One of the more conservative lutheran denominations in the united states

23:36

Uh, tell us about the actual synod that you're in Sure the kongsinger is part of the american association of lutheran churches the aalc

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And they are in full altar and pulpit fellowship with the missouri synod because we believe teach and confess the same things

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But our history is quite interesting in this sense that the aalc

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Is a group of uh, it comprises of a group of congregations that broke off Of the elca at the time that the lca and the uh, and the uh, what was the other

24:12

I forget there was a big merger that happened between a bunch of different groups that were lutheran And they jumped ship because they could see the handwriting on the wall

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That once that merger Occurred that created the big denomination called the elca that the liberals would literally have uh,

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Complete power and they would never be able to be gotten rid of and so these uh, these

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Congregations jumped ship in order to be able to hang on to conservative confessional lutheranism

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And not have the liberal agenda forced down their throats By their local bishops.

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Uh, yeah, and so that was that that's how the aalc got formed and uh, and so they they still continue to be a small group of uh,

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Of congregations spread out throughout the united states, but uh, they are they are confessionally

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Conservative just like the uh, missouri senate just that we've got our own. Uh, We've got our own leadership as opposed to the lcms's leadership

25:15

Right. I don't know if the trinity lutheran church in west hempstead, new york is in that sonata

25:21

I think it may be but my old friend that I haven't seen in years ray letoir is the pastor of that church and I I have a strong feeling it was in that synod that you're in Do you happen to know if trinity and uh

25:37

Up hand, I don't know Okay, that's all right. I'd have to look on the internet. So, okay well, uh, we have uh quite an interesting topic today that I Hope doesn't offend too many people who love the music of a church named hillsong

25:57

Uh, I know that they must be very popular i'm i'm kind of out of the loop with modern day uh christian recording artists and the most popular of Modern contemporary christian music not that I don't like some of it or even a lot of it but uh

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When I worked where I should say when my radio program Iron sharpens iron was first launched.

26:23

It was on a station that primarily played contemporary christian music and most of it made my stomach churn and I just I just lost total interest in keeping up with the times with that I Although there are uh groups like the gettys

26:39

Keith getty and his wife, uh who are purely biblical in their music and and other folks uh who

26:46

I enjoy and Tremendously and who are edifying and bless me and whose uh music

26:54

Uh is not only god honoring but the lyrics are clearly theologically sound and so on but uh,

27:01

I've i've i've been seeing a lot of hillsong music Uh being posted on facebook

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And by the way, all my facebook friends my 5000 facebook friends If you're wondering where I am, uh,

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I don't know what happened but facebook kicked me off yesterday And I had to restart a new page.

27:20

I still don't have any clue of why that happened why they did that to me I'm, only assuming I was promoting my show too much uh,

27:28

I was really going uh gung -ho publicizing iron sharpens iron radio and all Kinds of pages and I don't know if that had anything to do with it, but they kicked me off so any of you 5 000 folks that want to Be my facebook friend again contact me or send me an invitation, but um, i'm seeing a lot of hillsong music

27:48

Posted on facebook even by friends of mine who are theologically sound themselves So I think it's an important issue to address because of their popularity

27:57

Uh, tell us something about hillsong church before we go to a break And by the way, the reason people may be wondering why

28:05

I asked you chris roseborough Uh to conduct an interview on hillsong church in australia when you're a lutheran pastor in minnesota

28:14

It's because I contacted a christian ministry in australia uh whose members

28:23

Remain anonymous publicly because of fear of lawsuits But they are very concerned

28:31

About the popularity of hillsong church in spite of the fact that they seem to have very soft views on the issue of homosexuality

28:40

And other things and when I asked them to be a part of a an interview, even if they were to remain anonymous

28:47

They declined but strongly urged me to invite chris roseborough my guest today to discuss this matter

28:54

So before we go to the break tell us about hillsong church to begin with and why you became So aware of some problems that you believe exist there sure,

29:04

I mean in general we can talk about the fact that hillsong is uh, really the uh, the church that was created by uh, brian houston and it kind of picks up on the legacy of his father frank houston and uh hillsong today

29:22

Is it is kind of like a multimedia? music Monolith is the best way

29:28

I can put it and um, if you cannot separate hillsong music from hillsong the church

29:35

And the gist of the problem really has to do With the message that hillsong promotes which by the way

29:44

Changes and has switched over the years when uh, brian houston Uh early on came onto the scene.

29:51

He was a full -blown health and wealth prosperity preacher Who overtly taught the word of faith heresy?

30:00

And as he received more and more criticism he's He's tried to kind of pull that back a little bit and the best way

30:08

I can describe hillsong is is that theologically They are chameleonic.

30:13

Uh, they are like a chameleon uh, they they do a very good job of Kind of hiding what it is that they really believe teach and confess

30:24

And try to cast a very wide net As far as the message that they teach in order to have the broadest appeal possible

30:34

And that actually is the nub of the problem and when we come back from the break we can explain

30:41

Why that is why would that actually be a problem? Why wouldn't we want christianity to have the broadest appeal possible?

30:48

Uh so that we can have large churches scripture itself actually answers the question and so that would actually need to be one of the things we discuss as you know, kind of a foundational issue when it comes to being able to understand the

31:03

Difficulties and challenges and dangers that hillsong itself presents to christianity Okay, great.

31:09

And what you're saying? Uh sounds somewhat reminiscent of td jakes. I don't want to anybody to uh complain that I was uh,

31:18

Insinuating hillsong church is a oneness pentecostal church like td jakes is uh, but uh the uh, there's a similarity in that there's a lot of Vagueness and ambiguity and and mystery cloaked around the theology of td jakes and the way that he defends himself against Accusations of being an anti -trinitarian just leave me more confused than I than I was before the question was asked

31:50

Yeah But uh, we're gonna be right back. Uh after these, uh

31:55

Messages from our sponsors if you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own Our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com

32:02

Chris arnson at gmail .com whether you agree or disagree with chris roseborough

32:08

Whether you uh love Hillsong music or not Uh, whether you just don't know maybe this is a totally new subject to you

32:17

We would love to hear from you at chrisarnson at gmail .com Please give us your first name your city and state in your country of residence

32:24

If you live outside of the usa And if you have to remain anonymous, uh, because it makes you feel more comfortable

32:31

Since your question may be a personal and private one Maybe you are trying going to try to defend hillsong, but you don't want to publicly identify yourself whatever the case is

32:41

Uh, you may remain anonymous if it's about a personal and private matter, but otherwise, please Uh, please give us at least your first name city and state and country of residence and don't go away

32:51

We'll be right back after these messages I am chris arnson host of iron sharpens iron radio here to tell you about an exciting offer from world magazine my trusted source for news from a christian perspective

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We hope that iron sharpens iron radio blesses you for many years to come Hi, i'm pastor bill shishko inviting you to tune in to a visit to the pastor's study every saturday from 12 noon to 1 p .m

37:47

eastern time on wlie radio www .wlie540am .com

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We bring biblically faithful pastoral ministry to you And we invite you to visit the pastor's study by calling in with your questions

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Our time will be lively useful and I assure you never dull join us this saturday at 12 noon eastern time

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For a visit to the pastor's study because everyone needs a pastor. Welcome back This is chris arndsen

38:16

If you just tuned us in our guest today for the full two hours with about 90 minutes to go Is pastor chris roseborough and he is also the founder of pirate christian radio

38:28

And the host of the fighting for the faith Podcast today. We are discussing hillsong church and examination

38:36

And if you would like to join us on the air, our email address is chris arndsen at gmail .com

38:41

Chris arn zen at gmail .com if you have a question We do have a number of people still waiting to have their questions asked and answered but we'll get to you

38:51

As soon as possible and by the way, uh chris you might find this interesting, uh tomorrow on iron sharpens iron radio

38:58

I have the reverend dr. Matthew richard pastor of Pastor of zion lutheran church in guinner north dakota who's going to be discussing his book

39:08

Will the real jesus please stand up 12 false christs?

39:14

So and I do have to give a caveat to my listeners. I am not converting from calvinism to lutheranism

39:19

People may people may be starting to wonder because you even have about three more uh dates scheduled to be interviewed here

39:28

So yeah, so uh, the uh, the lutherans are not taking over iron sharpens iron radio, but I love to have a lutheran on Uh whenever I can to discuss something of interest to our audience and that I think would include what we're discussing today because Hillsong seems to be very widely popular amongst christians

39:46

Spanning the theological spectrum even those that might be theologically conservative So if you could pick up where you left off and tell us more about why we should be concerned at all

39:57

About these people that appear to be creating such beautiful music okay, so one of the issues is

40:05

We'll kind of start first with the the listeners. Well, and we'll work our way towards hillsong

40:13

We live in a day where christians for whatever reason they make choices regarding What they theologically digest using the same criteria that they use

40:27

When they decide what programs to watch on netflix or what to watch on television

40:34

Or things of that nature and the the general idea is is that people? They want to be entertained they want to feel good

40:43

And so they want churches who will entertain them and make them feel good as well And hillsong has made its

40:52

Literally made its hundreds of millions by By basically catering to that approach to giving consumers

41:01

What they want they are entertaining They they put on a spectacle week after week like you wouldn't believe and the music is all designed

41:10

To make you feel good with as little theological content getting in the way as possible but the problem is that scripture warns us against this and quite

41:24

Explicitly for instance in second timothy chapter four The apostle paul writing to young pastor timothy who was one of the pastors

41:34

Uh that was in the city of ephesus And he says to him I charge you in the presence of god and of christ

41:40

Jesus is to judge the living and the dead and by his appearing in his kingdom So you'll note he's invoking the imminent return of jesus in judgment and he says young pastor timothy

41:51

Preach the word be ready in season and out of season reprove rebuke and exhort

41:57

With complete patience and teaching for the time is coming When people will not endure sound doctrine, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions and they will turn away from listening to the truth and Wander off into myth and I it is not hyperbole for me to say that hill song fits this

42:24

Perfectly hill song is one of the places that the apostle paul Writing under the inspiration of the holy spirit warned us about and the reason

42:33

I know this Is because you know for years i've been paying very close attention

42:39

To the messages being preached by hill song by their most popular pastor brian houston as well as some of their other pastors

42:48

That that preach at their different multi -site campai around the world now Why is that why is that that you were paying such close attention to them?

42:56

because of their popularity because many many evangelicals just Basically, they assume that because they're popular but because their music sells

43:06

Well that somehow that this means that it's okay for christians to listen to and to use their worst their music and worship

43:14

But the reality is that scripture over and again warns us that we have to guard our doctrine and our life very carefully

43:22

And here's kind of the thing is that you you you invoke td jakes and notice

43:28

How very difficult it is to actually nail down What it is that he believes that he teaches that he confesses the same thing holds true regarding hillsong

43:40

They you can't exactly go to a very extensive document that says here's what hillsong believes teaches and confesses

43:49

Those documents are very difficult to find and when you find them They are so thin and watered down that that pretty much means you can well they they can teach and believe just about anything um, and that's exactly what they do and that that brings about that brings up the

44:07

Serious importance of confessionalism that you mentioned earlier Right exactly it listen

44:12

You could you can already if you read the book of concord You know what? I believe what

44:18

I teach what I confess and on any given sunday I'm, you know what i'm going to be teaching from god's word is going to be in line with what those confessions

44:28

State and if and here's the other part because i'm an ordained minister within the american lutheran

44:34

American association of lutheran churches as part of my ordination vow

44:39

I vowed that I would only teach what's in accord with our confession So if I were to get up on a sunday morning and deny the doctrine of the trinity the american association of lutheran churches would literally

44:54

Uh deblock me and and make the claim that I had

44:59

I had broken my ordination vow You know that I would only teach what's in accord with our confession

45:05

But you know if we live in a day where confessions and theology and doctrine and ordination vows and doctrinal statements

45:12

They they they literally are put forward by many people in evangelicalism as an impediment

45:18

To the vice to doctrine is an impediment to the church And so they have surrounded themselves with teachers who can pretty much teach whatever they want

45:27

And you'll note that their messages drip And they don't have any really real anchor

45:34

It's basically like they're sticking their looking their finger and then Sticking it up into the wind in whichever way the prevalent theological winds are blowing

45:43

Those guys are totally on board and going with those winds But scripture warns us against that specifically and talks about those who are taught

45:51

Hither and yon by every strange wind of doctrine and funny enough Hillsong is is literally made their their hundreds of millions

46:01

By doing exactly that sticking their finger into the wind and teaching whatever it is That will have the broadest appeal and so that's contrary to second timothy chapter four, but it's also

46:14

Something that's contrary to what scripture teaches in the epistle of jude which I think is a very

46:19

Good place for people to pay attention to talking about the false teachers jude right?

46:26

Uh in verse 11 woe to them. They walked in the way of cain These are people who basically go through the motions, uh religiously, but don't have any faith

46:34

They abandoned themselves for the sake of gain to balaam's error Balaam was a prophet for profit and they perished in korah's rebellion

46:42

Which is really interesting as you know a little bit of a study there When you look at scripture what it teaches regarding korah's rebellion korah's rebellion was a rebellion against the

46:54

Institution the offices that god had established at the time of the old testament era And it was a rebellion against moses himself being a spokesperson for god and god severely

47:06

Judged korah and his entire family and all those who joined with him in his rebellion And so, you know kind of the three marks of a false teacher are their prophets for profit

47:15

They just go through the religious motions that don't have faith or they rail against the way god has instituted things in the church

47:21

And then talking about them they are hidden reefs at your love feast. They feast with you without fear

47:28

They are shepherds who feed only themselves They are waterless clouds they are swept along by the wind

47:36

They are fruitless trees. They're twice dead and uprooted. They're wild waves of the sea

47:41

Casting up the foam of their own shame and they are wandering stars And that's kind of an important descriptor a wandering star is one.

47:49

You cannot navigate by So, you know you can only navigate by a star that does not move

47:55

Which is why we navigate by the north star here in the northern hemisphere because polaris

48:00

Stays at you know stays at one fixed point in the horizon And that's the only thing that's the only kind of star that you can navigate by you can't navigate by You know

48:11

Something in the belt of orion or one of the planets like jupiter. You have to have a fixed point

48:17

And so over and again, you look at a movement like pilsen And the one thing that is the constant

48:25

Is that they theologically and doctrinally drift they don't there's nothing fun that they actually hold on to And um, and they are they always give vague answers when it comes to important issues such as you know, uh

48:42

Homosexuality the need for people to repent of sexual sins of that nature. They always are very vague

48:48

And and and if they're all of their messages really seem to be geared towards Making you feel good about being you and how important you are

49:01

As opposed to proclaiming god's holy law, which convicts us of our sins

49:07

And proclaiming christ and him crucified for our sins is the only solution For the problem that we that we all humans collectively face and that is that we are by nature sinners

49:19

In need of a savior and that christ has died a penal substitutionary death on the cross in order to to literally satisfy god's justice to propitiate the wrath of god and to Restore the broken relationship we have with god as a result of our sin

49:37

Against him you don't hear those categories in that type of preaching from hillsong over and again

49:43

You're going to hear about how important you are the need for you to discover your god -given destiny

49:49

And the need for you to basically eschew anybody who would try to speak negatively against the destiny that you believe that god has revealed in your heart and all this kind of nonsense and None of their messages actually jive with historic biblical christian orthodoxy

50:06

It's more or less what uh, what whatever is the hip kind of thing at the moment

50:11

They're always on board with that and as a result of it The only constant is theological drift and change when it comes to hillsong

50:20

Before we go into the issue of homosexuality, which is how

50:25

I first heard about Problems with hillsong is when dr. James r.

50:31

White of alpha and omega ministries started to contact the pastor

50:37

Uh there or believe it perhaps was a united states satellite of hillsong. I can't remember right now, but it was uh,

50:44

It was hillsong new york city. It was carl matt Okay, and he dr.

50:49

James r. White of alpha mega ministry is a dear friend of mine since 1995 uh said that um

50:56

He uh Had serious problems with their positions or lack thereof on on homosexuality

51:04

Uh, but before we go there, are there any uh alarming things that should draw us attention specifically about doctrine that you know

51:13

They teach and you've been just talking about how elusive they are But is there anything concrete that you can say in addition to what you've already said before we go on to the the issue of homosexuality

51:25

Sure, I I think the main problem with their doctrine is that they still continue to teach a form of the word of faith heresy

51:33

Which basically says that if negative things are happening to you in your life It's because you haven't somehow activated through your faith

51:42

Uh your faith -filled words, uh positive outcomes in your life So thinking positively and speaking positively are the means by which you create positive results in your life

51:54

And there's a very very heavy emphasis that the results that you're looking for as a christian

52:00

Are an increase in personal wealth An increase in personal health and um, and then personal influence and affluence um, so their their version of uh of christian sanctification

52:16

Really looks like you know as somebody who's very healthy and wealthy and Influential those are supposedly what they believe are the marks of true christian sanctification as opposed to uh holiness of the mortification of your sinful flesh and then trusting in christ for the forgiveness of your sins and then

52:36

Bearing fruit and keeping with repentance in good works in love for neighbor

52:41

That's not how they talk. It's it's always kind of very much focused narcissistically on you

52:49

Learning and achieving your dream destiny, which just so happens To also include, you know ever -increasing health and wealth and influence, which is not at all what scripture teaches.

53:00

It's a very carnal based uh approach to uh to christian sanctification, which means it's not christian sanctification because it actually

53:11

Uh keeps people focusing in on the passions of their sinful flesh rather than mortifying

53:16

Mortifying them and uh, of course brian houston would be the guy who is the the ultimate example of the guy who's pulling it off Because he jets around the world in his private jet and lives in Uh, you know in state of five diamond resorts and things of that nature so he's the guy who shows you that this approach to christianity, you know really is the truth because He's the guy who's living the dream and the practice is what he preaches

53:42

But again, it's focusing in on all of the things that scripture condemns And is narcissistic and it's focused rather than focusing us on christ

53:52

And it's really about you know Living out what your sinful flesh really desires in the first place and somehow baptizing it to make that christian

54:01

That's the the real the real hub of what's really wrong with ilsa

54:07

So i'm confused. Do you like this church or not? No Obviously i was just joking

54:16

We're going to a break right now and this is going to be one of our elongated breaks because we have to comply with grace life radio in lake city florida who

54:26

Insists that we or requires I should say that we have our program submitted to them in two

54:33

Uh 54 minute chunks, so we have to have an elongated break in the middle I hope you'll be patient with us

54:39

But we will be back momentarily after these words from our sponsors with more of chris roseborough's critique of hill song and uh

54:49

If you'd like to join us, we already have a number of you waiting and I know that You've been waiting quite a while. So please be patient.

54:55

But if you would like to get in line Behind them and join us with a question of your own on hill song.

55:00

Our email address is chris arnzen at gmail .com c h r i s a r n z e n at gmail .com

55:07

Please give us your first name your city and state and your country of residence If you live outside of the usa and only remain anonymous if it's about a personal and private matter

55:17

Perhaps you disagree with your own pastor on hill song or something like that. You'd rather not identify yourself.

55:22

I understand but we also welcome anyone to Send in a question who is in favor or should

55:30

I say? allies themselves with hill song And wants to defend hill song you may do that as well

55:37

But we are going to be right back. God willing after these messages from our sponsors So, please do not go away

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That's liyfc .org Welcome back.

01:03:00

This is chris arnzen if you just tuned us in today Our guest for the full two hours with just about an hour to go

01:03:07

Is chris roseborough founder of pirate christian radio. We are discussing a hill song church

01:03:15

And critiquing it Uh and exposing some of the serious errors about hill song

01:03:23

And especially perhaps in regard to the issue of homosexuality which we are going to be

01:03:30

Introducing into the conversation momentarily, but before I return to The conversation

01:03:36

I have some important announcements to make Uh, the word of truth church in farmingville, long island, new york

01:03:44

Is having a 500th anniversary of the protestant reformation celebration

01:03:51

Uh, that is going to be this coming, uh september And it's going to feature my friend from toronto baptist seminary

01:04:02

Dr. Tony costa who is the professor of apologetics And islam at toronto baptist seminary

01:04:10

Uh, and this is going to be i'm sure an exciting conference Uh and a fascinating one, dr.

01:04:18

Tony costa many of you may remember him I had back in january of this year

01:04:24

Had him come out to carlisle, pennsylvania to debate a roman catholic robertson genis on the immaculate conception and perpetual sinlessness of mary and uh, dr.

01:04:38

Tony costa did such a Admirable a remarkable job in that conference. So i'm sure

01:04:44

That you will indeed be edified by him It's friday, september 29th and saturday, september 30th

01:04:50

At the word of truth church in farmingville, long island. If you'd like more information you can go to wot church

01:04:58

Dot com that's wot for word of truth church .com Or you can call the word of truth church at area code eight

01:05:07

Six three one eight zero six zero six fourteen six three one eight zero six

01:05:13

Zero six fourteen the very next day a sunday october 1st At 11 a .m.

01:05:19

Dr. Costa will be preaching at the morning worship service of hope reformed baptist church of long island

01:05:26

Where my dear friend pastor rich jensen is the pastor Uh, if you'd like to attend that service, uh, you can go to hope reformed li .net

01:05:38

Hope reformed li .net Which li stands for long island hope reformed li .net

01:05:44

or call them at six three one six nine six fifty seven eleven six three one six nine six five seven eleven and then uh coming up in november my friends at the alliance of confessing evangelicals

01:06:00

Are having their annual quaker town conference on reform theology

01:06:06

And I god willing will be there with an exhibitor's booth. So I hope that you can join me there

01:06:12

Uh, this is going to be on the theme for still our ancient foe a line

01:06:18

Certainly not unfamiliar to my guest chris roseborough for still our ancient foe an obvious reference to satan from The hymn of the great reformer martin luther a mighty fortress

01:06:32

That's november 17th through the 18th speakers include Kent hughes peter jones tom nettles dennis cahill and scott olephant

01:06:41

And this is going to be held at the grace bible fellowship church in quaker town, pennsylvania And as I said, it's november 17th through the 18th.

01:06:48

If you'd like to register for that conference go to alliance net .org Alliance net .org

01:06:54

click on events and then click on quaker town conference on reform theology and then last but not least

01:07:02

The g3 conference is returning to atlanta, georgia the g3 standing for grace gospel and glory

01:07:12

And next year's theme when I say next year. It's not that far away because it's in january Next year's theme is going to be knowing god a biblical understanding of discipleship

01:07:23

And the speakers include stephen lawson voddie bachem Phil johnson keith getty who

01:07:28

I mentioned earlier as one of my favorite modern day christian recording artists Hb charles jr.

01:07:34

Tim challis josh bice My dear friend, dr James r white of alpha omega ministries tom askell anthony methenia michael kruger president of reform theological seminary in charlotte, north carolina

01:07:46

David miller paul tripp todd freel of wretched radio who I have heard Quote from chris roseborough from time to time on wretched radio and wretched tv

01:07:55

Uh, we have uh, derek thomas and martha peace also speaking at the g3 conference

01:08:03

If you'd like to register for that conference go to g3 conference .com G3 conference .com

01:08:08

if you register for any of these events Or just want to find out more information and you contact these organizations running the events

01:08:15

Please let them know that you heard about them from chris arnzen On iron sharpens iron radio last but not least.

01:08:22

It's my time. It's my unfortunate and uncomfortable time To grub money from you.

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I hate doing this, but it's something that needs to be done Especially since my advertisers have been urging me for so long prodding me and urging me and insisting that I Make public appeals for donations those advertisers that are currently

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Keeping my program afloat want this program to remain on the air for a long time to come but we need additional donations

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If you are financially blessed with the capability Of blessing iron sharpens iron radio with a donation of any amount without Dipping in to the the regular giving you are accustomed to to your local church where you are a member and hopefully you are a member of a local bible believing church and if you're not

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Advertising in the subject line and hopefully we can work out a campaign with you Well now we are back with my guest chris roseboro

01:10:47

Of pirate christian radio. We are discussing hill song and we are examining their theological dangers and doctrinal aberrancies and now we're going to be

01:11:01

And unless you've not finished anything you want to say about the other doctrinal matters will enter into the area

01:11:07

Of their apparent softness on the sin of homosexuality. Do you have anything other? Anything else to say in regard to specific doctrine or or practice?

01:11:17

uh, let me say this and that is that um At pirate christian radio .com

01:11:24

in the archives of my of my program fighting for the faith So if you go to pirate christian radio .com click on podcasts

01:11:30

And go to fighting for the faith look for the october 19th 2016 episode of fighting for the faith the name of it is heresy hiding in plain sight

01:11:43

And the thing you're really looking for there is are the links that we provide At the end of that program in that program we actually walk through The lyrics of many of the most popular hill song songs, but in the links that are additional resources

01:12:00

There are a whole lot of different resources from around the web That we've provided links to including the brian houston and hill song cornucopia of false teaching which literally chronicles and documents

01:12:14

Uh, all of the different adverb teachings that hill song has taught over the decades

01:12:20

And uh the best way I can put it is that my challenge for your listeners would be to Do your homework don't take my word for it

01:12:32

And when you do the homework and you listen critically to their sermons listen critically to their the lyrics of their songs

01:12:40

And there's there's homework that we've provided for everybody here You will begin to see for yourself the major major problems

01:12:49

That exist with hill song it is not Uh, it is not a safe movement.

01:12:54

It is not a safe church and their music is not safe Theologically for you to be singing and worshiping to in fact, it's the exact opposite.

01:13:04

It's very very dangerous Dangerous stuff that they they continue to put out into the public marketplace

01:13:12

And unfortunately all too there are far too many consumers within christianity

01:13:17

Who are not biblically critical? And uh, these are the types of errors that could literally shipwreck your faith and you don't want that to happen great, well, let's move on to the issue of homosexuality, which is

01:13:31

The the area of their aberrancy that first Drew my attention to them because as I said earlier, my friend.

01:13:39

Dr. James r white uh was having some problematic communication with the pastor in the new york city, uh satellite church of hill song

01:13:49

And was very uh, dr White was very displeased and disheartened by some of the responses that he was being uh given about this issue but if you could tell

01:13:59

Our audience what is the problem with their understanding of homosexuality and their approach to those involved in that activity?

01:14:08

Well, the issue is is that they're very vague and ambiguous regarding what they what their position is regarding homosexuality the pastor in question

01:14:18

His name is carl lenz and I too have had a very extensive communication with carl lenz

01:14:25

Regarding the issue of uh the sin of same -sex attraction as well as same -sex sex

01:14:31

And all of this came to a head a few years back when it became known that a very famous homosexual who was on Uh the survivor, uh television program.

01:14:45

That's a reality tv program called survivor that uh that a very famous homosexual attended

01:14:51

Uh hill song and his gay lover was also part of like the music team there

01:14:59

At hill song and this kind of pushed everything to a head And which kind of led to the question.

01:15:05

Why is it that an impenitent? practicing homosexual Would have such a high profile at hill song and when you push

01:15:16

Carl lenz and uh, brian houston for clarity on these matters over and again the answers that they gave

01:15:24

The best way I could describe them would be clintonian if you remember back at the the clinton administration

01:15:31

You would always have to parse their words whenever they were, you know pushed on a policy or something that they were doing

01:15:39

They engaged in weird kind of post -modern obfuscation and the weird use of words

01:15:44

I remember during the model monica lewinsky scandal Uh, you know bill clinton literally kind of biting his lower lip and saying

01:15:53

I did not have sexual relations with that Woman, miss lewinsky And you know, of course it begs the question.

01:16:00

How are you defining the phrase sexual relations? Well hill song is very clintonian when it comes to The very clear biblical teaching regarding the fact that same -sex attraction as well as same -sex intercourse

01:16:15

Are an abomination to god that they are sinner that they are sinful And that christ is bled and died for these sins the apostle paul and first corinthians even knows the fact that Those who are sexually immoral and those who engage in homosexual

01:16:31

Uh passions and sex that they will not inherit the kingdom of god and then he goes on to say that and such were some of you that even among the christians in the church of corinth were people who had had committed those sins and yet they

01:16:48

Because of the gospel because of the forgiveness of sins won by christ on the cross And the regenerative work of the holy spirit.

01:16:55

They could talk about those sins in the past tense and say yes at one point I was one of these fellows who did these things and now

01:17:04

I am in christ and I am no longer I am no longer one of those. Um, but at hill song

01:17:10

Is the fact that you would have people such high profile homosexuals uh, you know openly saying

01:17:17

I go to hill song new york city and feeling comfortable in the seat and that they as practicing homosexuals could participate in the in the worship

01:17:28

Uh of uh hill song Well, that's more than just problematic That's actually a kind of part and parcel of the big problem that existed hill song and that is the absence

01:17:40

Of preaching that calls people to repent of their sins to be forgiven by the shed blood of christ

01:17:46

And then bear fruit in their lives in keeping with repentance in ever -increasing holiness by embracing

01:17:53

God's standards, uh moral standards as revealed in his law and and putting to death our sinful passions and behaviors and uh in living lives that are exemplary of Of the fact that we are forgiven sinners and that we don't use the gospel as a license to sin

01:18:12

Instead when it comes to hill song over and again on the homosexual issue You can't ever get a straight answer from them.

01:18:22

Is it a sin? Do people need to repent of it? Can somebody be a christian and still?

01:18:28

Uh be and be a practicing homosexual ask this of the hill song leadership And you can never get a straight answer.

01:18:36

In fact, one of the more problem of problematic things Recently covered on my program was that uh, brian houston in one of his sermons has even become squishy on the issue of Transgenderism and uh use the occasion of the story in acts chapter 8 of the ethiopian munich

01:18:55

To literally claim that the ethiopian munich was a fellow who was confused regarding his own gender identity

01:19:02

For brian houston to twist that text from acts chapter 8 to somehow Claim that the story of the ethiopian munich is one about how god can you know?

01:19:13

Work in the life of somebody who is transgendered is more than problematic.

01:19:19

I mean, it's just absolutely Satanically sinful to twist biblical text in that way and that's exactly what we get from brian houston

01:19:27

And the rest of their pastors on a regular basis Right and even if you were to stretch that text beyond imagination to mean that this person had some kind of sexual identity

01:19:41

Problem he repented he came to faith in christ. Whatever it was. He was before was left behind And he was no longer carrying on in that way of life that he had

01:19:54

Let's make this clear That in the ancient world if you uh, if you were part of a royal court

01:20:01

That where the royal person in charge was a queen Or even a king it was often in the ancient world

01:20:09

There were people who became eunuchs Not because they viewed that as the ancient world version of gender reassignment surgery

01:20:18

That was not what that was about It was about the fact that they didn't want the courtiers

01:20:25

To have sexual intercourse with the royals And so that was let's just say that that was an occupational hazard if you wanted to uh, you know to have the job of being

01:20:36

Somebody who's high up in a royal court. I have a feeling not too many people were actually voluntarily applying for that job

01:20:42

No, I mean It's like could you imagine i'm seriously looking through the new york times? It's like oh, yeah, you can work for you know

01:20:49

Candace the queen of the ethiopians If you get the job you're gonna have your genitals

01:20:56

Why Uh Go ahead.

01:21:04

I'm, sorry But you get the idea that has nothing to do with gender identity that had to do with The job that the vocation of being courtier was and so for for somebody to impose

01:21:17

Uh, you know kind of the the bruce jenner It's exegetical approach to that particular historical thing it just it doesn't wash

01:21:26

Exegetically or historically and when somebody engages in that kind of bible twisting they inevitably tip their hand

01:21:33

That they are not properly understanding the proper distinction between god's law and the gospel

01:21:40

And and that's that is one of the hallmarks of somebody who's going to scratch and tickle

01:21:46

Itching ears and tell people what they want to hear the message that we christians have been given to Proclaim to the world is kind of twofold jesus explains it in luke 24

01:21:56

As proclaiming repentance and the forgiveness of sins in his name which requires us as christians to preach god's law

01:22:04

In all of its sternness because when you do that you realize that every single one of us me included

01:22:12

We all fall into the into the category of those who have transgressed god's holy law and we are sinners

01:22:21

In fact scripture makes it clear that sin is so deep That we are born dead in trespasses and sins

01:22:29

And that it literally takes a miraculous act of god through the power of the holy spirit

01:22:35

Through the preaching of the gospel to bring us to repentance And to regenerate us so that we are forgiven and have a right standing with god

01:22:45

But over and again with churches like hillsong Sin is watered down and is not discussed in any meaningful way.

01:22:54

I mean I remember the late walter martin When he would talk about the false teachers of his day

01:23:02

He would say that they would always talk about jesus being loved jesus is love jesus is love and he used to say

01:23:09

Butter wouldn't even melt in these people's mouths because of how mealy mouth they were

01:23:15

They were neither hot nor cold same with hillsong. They are neither hot nor cold and they're always emphasizing the love of jesus

01:23:23

And how jesus wants you to have your live your fullest life now and all this kind of stuff nonsense But the reality is is what they don't preach is a meaningful

01:23:32

Uh message regarding god's law which then convicts us of our sins and shows us our need for a savior

01:23:39

In fact, you can't understand the gospel that christ died for our sins unless you have rightly understand

01:23:46

What sin is and that you? Have done it, you know, you were born doing it

01:23:53

And uh and so as a result of their their message being deficient in that way when you

01:23:58

Twist the scriptures and you can't give a meaningful answer to the question It you know, it is homosexuality compatible with christianity or you twist the biblical text regarding the ethiopian munich and somehow

01:24:09

Import into it, you know that this guy was you know, bruce jenner gender confused that when you do that You read you make it clear.

01:24:18

You do not understand what god's holy law teaches and you don't actually preach it

01:24:24

It's funny when you do stuff like that. You tacitly admit that you're not Actually qualified to be a pastor and that you're not preaching the real gospel because the real gospel

01:24:34

Addresses the real problem that we have and the real problem that we have is that we've all fallen short of the glory of god

01:24:41

And are liable to god's judgment and damnation Because of our sinful rebellion against god and participation in the works of the devil

01:24:50

But you don't you never hear it preached in that way at hillsong any of them There must be some mistake here.

01:24:57

I thought that I had a lutheran on the program today. Not a fellow calvinist I don't know what happened You're you're preaching to my heart brother um

01:25:08

Let's uh go to the final break before uh, we uh

01:25:13

Have some of our listeners questions read to you and answered by you. I don't want to interrupt you mid -sentence

01:25:19

So we're going to go to our final break And if anybody else would like to join us, you should do it right away because we're rapidly running out of time

01:25:26

Our email address is chris arnzen at gmail .com. C -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com

01:25:34

Please give us your first name your city and state And your country of residence if you live outside of the usa

01:25:41

And you may remain anonymous if it makes you feel more comfortable. Perhaps you want to defend hillsong in your

01:25:48

You really don't want to make that publicly known or something like that Maybe you disagree with your pastor on hillsong, whatever it is

01:25:55

You may remain anonymous, but if it's not personal and private, please give us your first name city and state And country of residence don't go away.

01:26:02

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01:33:18

This is chris arnds. And if you just tuned us in our guest today For the full two hours with about 25 minutes to go is chris rose bro founder of pirate christian radio and we are

01:33:30

Having a or conducting a critical examination of hill song and their theology and their weak stance

01:33:39

On the sin of homosexuality if you'd like to join us on the air Our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com

01:33:46

but do so quickly because we're rapidly running out of time and there are people already waiting in front of you before I go to our first listener question, um

01:33:55

What do you say to the person who loves hill song and they say wait a minute wait a minute wait a minute

01:34:00

They made a very strong stance in australia Against same -sex marriage.

01:34:06

They made an official Declaration that they were not in favor of same -sex marriage that they believe that marriage is between one man and one woman and nothing else and they were urging people to vote to make sure that Same -sex marriage laws were not passed etc.

01:34:23

How do you respond to that? Um, I would say that's that's a good first step.

01:34:28

But the question is what are they preaching from the pulpit? Political action is one thing but what you preach sunday after sunday is a different thing

01:34:39

And that's where the issue is. You can't change what you preach from the pulpit sunday after sunday by tokenly

01:34:47

Basically, you know saying we're going we're going to be get behind this particular measure and try to protect

01:34:53

You know marriage between a man and a woman. I mean that's political action and that's something we should all be

01:34:59

Engaged in within the republics and democracies that we live in but at the end of the day It's ultimately going to come down to what is preached from the pulpit and that's where the the real issue is

01:35:09

You can't somehow sit there and say well because they supported this measure Therefore we must assume that their preaching is correct.

01:35:16

No listen to their preaching and you will see that it is over and again Deficient in the area of sin in general which includes all of the different sexual sins including

01:35:29

Homosexuality and transgenderism they are extremely weak vague and ambiguous

01:35:34

In their stances regarding those things when it comes to what they preach from the pulpit.

01:35:40

Yeah, let's not forget that both President Bill Clinton and President Barack Obama Initially strongly opposed same -sex marriage themselves and they were no

01:35:52

Bible believing Christians or are no Bible believing Christians with any kind of conservative identity or Identity that is connected with biblical inerrancy

01:36:02

So that really doesn't cover the whole issue just because you're against same -sex marriage. There are even homosexuals

01:36:09

Even though they might be in a minority or people involved in homosexual activity I should say that are opposed to same -sex marriage.

01:36:17

You might not hear about them often, but they do exist We have Joanna in Atlanta, Georgia a first -time questioner

01:36:25

Who says as a woman who falls within the demographic that you mentioned and she's speaking about your

01:36:31

Salem media discussion earlier As a woman who falls in within the demographic that you mentioned

01:36:38

I would take iron sharpens iron or fighting for the faith over the view any day

01:36:44

She asks, how do you start talking to a believer who enjoys Hillsong music? Especially if he or she is on a praise band about the problem with the doctrines or lack thereof in their songs

01:36:56

Is there a more sensitive way to talk about it? Or is it best to use the waterboarding the waterboarding tactic that you use?

01:37:07

fighting for the Yeah Here's how

01:37:15

I would approach it in person I would not use the waterboarding technique

01:37:21

But you'll notice that on fighting for the faith what we demonstrate on fighting faith a fighting for the faith is how to facilitate the collision between God's Word and the false doctrine and false methods that have become the problem within Visible Church today in evangelicalism.

01:37:41

So take that approach and kind of work it this way So you have a friend who's on a praise band and if they're honest, they will tell you

01:37:51

Yeah When we plan out our sets we over and again talk about the type of mood that we're trying trying to create through the music and that's a form of manipulation and We you know, we teach we preach and we actually sing these songs with that with these lyrics

01:38:08

So what you do in a situation like that is find where there's a direct contradiction between what they're saying or singing or Doing and what

01:38:21

God's Word actually says and the way you do that then is that you say hey listen you know,

01:38:26

I was thinking about you and praying for you and I'm worried and here's the reason why

01:38:32

These songs that you're singing they say this but God's Word Says this and read out the text in context and then ask this important question how do you resolve the conflict between what you're doing or singing and what

01:38:48

God's Word says here and Then do not answer the question for them in the in the in the corporate world

01:38:57

They call this a power pause and so what you do is you basically show that there is a contradiction between what

01:39:03

God's Word says and what they're singing or doing and You ask the question. How do you resolve the conflict and then let them answer the question?

01:39:13

and what you're going to find is that when you politely and respectfully point out that there's a Contradiction and give them the opportunity to explain how they resolve it that oftentimes

01:39:25

Because they Acknowledge that God's Word is true. If they're shown that there's a contradiction they'll begin to see that there's a problem and you have to have the patience then with the people that you love and And by patience,

01:39:41

I mean let God's Word do its work scripture is so clear in Hebrews 4 It says that God's Word is living and active and sharper than a two -edged sword

01:39:50

So facilitate that collision between God's Word and what they're saying and doing and let

01:39:56

God's Word do its work show that God's Word says the opposite of what they're doing and then

01:40:02

Let that be a problem for them to solve and if they give you a lame answer say to them

01:40:07

You know what? That was a pretty unsatisfactory answer and I thought it was kind of lame and it still didn't really address the

01:40:14

The core issue that what you're singing or doing is is contradicted by what God's Word says here

01:40:19

So keep coming back with the word and understand it is the Word of God that the

01:40:24

Holy Spirit uses to open up people's minds and their eyes to what the truth is and The same thing had to happen to me and Chris the same thing happened to you

01:40:36

And so with we believe that God's Word does these things that help facilitate the collision between God's Word and what people are believing and doing and The Holy Spirit through his word it is going to start to convict them and show them that what they're seeing and and doing is wrong and God's Word is going to then provide the

01:40:58

Opportunity and the means by which their eyes can be open so that they can do what is correct and true Well, thank you so much

01:41:05

Joanna in Atlanta, Georgia And because you are a first -time questioner you have won a free

01:41:11

New American Standard Bible Compliments of the publishers of the NASB and also compliments of our friends at Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service CV as in Valley BBS .com

01:41:23

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01:41:32

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01:41:38

We hope you keep listening for a long time to come and keep spreading the word about the program in Atlanta, Georgia also,

01:41:44

I hope to see you at the G3 conference in Atlanta, Georgia if you do register for that, please let them know that you heard about the

01:41:52

Conference on iron sharpens iron radio. I forgot to mention to you Chris that I had emailed to you prior to our elongated break

01:42:01

I forwarded to you a list a question from a fellow Minnesotan I don't know if you got that question

01:42:10

I've sent it to you because it was rather lengthy and I wanted you to have time to look it over during the break but I completely forgot to tell you but but but Christina in Asante, Minnesota.

01:42:20

I don't know if that's close to you or not but she says In my time attending

01:42:26

Hillsong College The seeker focused atmosphere of Hillsong Church never sat well with me

01:42:32

The teachings were weak and watered down the sinners prayer was recited by the whole congregation at every single service and Worship was all hype and emotion, but the majority of conviction and challenge

01:42:46

I received in my time There was from the songwriting now I've witnessed the theological tests songs at Hillsong are put through at least

01:42:56

I did in 2009 through 2010 and thanks to pastors

01:43:01

Robert Ferguson and I'm wondering if you to note a disconnect between the generally biblical

01:43:09

Vulnerable and heart worship songs and the lacking theological truth preached from the pulpit books and channel

01:43:18

Okay a little bit of a complicated question But I want to kind of key in on where she put the emphasis in her question

01:43:26

And that is is that she was noting that there is a there's a disconnect between heart and mind

01:43:34

And that's one of the that's one of the classic problems in our time Is that the

01:43:40

Hillsong older songs are quite emotive? They are designed to create a feeling

01:43:47

And the problem is is that those feelings that are based upon emotive words that don't exactly have

01:43:54

Real substantive meaning so I would point back to the resource that I mentioned earlier on One of the podcasts that we talked about this and we work through their lyrics

01:44:05

But you're going to note here is is that over and again many Christians today make a sharp

01:44:11

Dichotomy between what they call head knowledge versus heart knowledge as if somehow

01:44:16

If you have an in -depth understanding of scripture And your brain is involved in reading scripture and rightly understanding it that somehow that is working

01:44:28

Against your heart and worse that then extends to somehow

01:44:33

Resisting the work of the Spirit and the work of the Spirit is only emotive that is so false

01:44:39

It's not even it's not even funny Scripture tells us in fact Jesus says that those who worship

01:44:46

God worship him in spirit and in Truth in fact over and again.

01:44:53

We learn from scripture that our mind is Engaged in the in rightly understanding

01:45:00

God's Word and that our emotions then Follow from a mind that is transformed by the

01:45:06

Word of God and so much of evangelicalism thinks that a right understanding of scripture

01:45:13

Gets in the way of the emotions and what the Spirit is doing But scripture is so clear the two have to work together

01:45:20

And so this then kind of fleshes out one of the major problems that Hillsong has is that they they emphasize the emotive

01:45:28

And they de -emphasize the part of scripture that really engages our mind

01:45:35

And so they pit heart against head where scripture Teaches us that both head and heart are under the authority of scripture and that mind has to be in the driver's seat as Informed by scripture and then emotions follow so that that's one of the major problems with Hillsong And I would even argue then that the when she talks about the issue regarding the whole seeker driven movement somehow being very thin Doctrinally and theologically that that's one of the reasons why it's because they hit head and heart against each other

01:46:10

Whereas scripture puts all both of them together Underneath the scriptures with the head kind of in in the in the driver's seat

01:46:18

But you have to understand the seeker driven movement works from a false understanding that somehow the job of Christianity and evangelicalism is to somehow manipulate people into making a decision and that's false

01:46:33

That's patently false scriptures. So clear on this that we don't choose God, but that God chooses us and so the idea then is that the job of an evangelist is to preach the word and the

01:46:48

Holy Spirit is going to be the one that convicts people of their sin and Preach the gospel and preaching the gospel of the means by which then

01:46:55

God regenerates people. So amen I'm giving you a hearty Calvinist. Amen Yes, this is where we're going to Calvinists agree

01:47:06

We're on the same side of the Reformation when it comes to the the means of grace and how

01:47:11

God regenerates people But the whole seeker driven movement, which is kind of strange if you think about it They're actually on the same theological part of the spectrum that Rome is on Rome would deny it

01:47:22

But they are they are literally Tacitly Pelagian in their approach and Pelagianism is this heresy that somehow we're not dead in trespasses and sins and somehow we've got to make these decisions

01:47:35

Where you know to you know when it comes to God and things like that But you know, no scripture is clear that we're dead in trespasses and sins so the whole approach that Hillsong engages in works from the false assumption of the

01:47:49

Pelagian heresy or At best the semi Pelagian heresy that somehow we've got to water things down so that somebody can make a decision

01:47:57

No we need to preach the full counsel the Word of God without shaving off any of the hard edges and got the

01:48:04

Holy Spirit is going to regenerate lost sinners and Turn them into Christians who then trust in Christ and bear fruit in keeping with repentance

01:48:13

So the whole premise behind Hillsong and the seeker driven movement is actually

01:48:18

Grounded in an ancient heresy known as Pelagianism Now she seems to be

01:48:24

Defending this this pastor Robert Ferguson I don't know who that is, but she seems to be saying that he puts their music through rigorous theological tests and she is pitting the

01:48:38

Comparatively sound music to the sermons preached you I guess you're disagreeing with her assessment on that yeah,

01:48:45

I Would go back to the resource that we that I mentioned earlier in the program from October of 2016

01:48:52

We actually walked through the lyrics of the most popular Hillsong Songs and they are at best

01:49:02

Theologically ambiguous and emotionally manipulative. There is no sound

01:49:09

Proclamation of what Scripture actually says in their music It's like everything is designed to be kind of murky and cloudy and emotionally

01:49:20

You know evocative rather than biblically sound and prop and then proclaim the truths of Scripture that we as Christians should be able to all embrace and sing to and believe and by the way

01:49:35

The ancient church actually had this understanding that what we sing is very vital in how we are formed doctrinally the phrase that the ancient church used was lexa rendi lex credendi and that the idea behind lexa rendi lex credendi is

01:49:51

Translates as the law of prayer is the law of worship or the law of belief And so what you what you sing what you worship what you how you pray is what you end up Believing and the arch heretic

01:50:04

Arius of the of the ancient church, which who he denied the doctrine of the

01:50:09

Trinity Arius understood the the relationship between what

01:50:15

Christians sing and what they believe and Arius was quite a prolific songwriter of his day and In it's kind of interesting that in our day.

01:50:24

There's not a big major heresy That's being taught by Hillsong per se, but whether their lyrics is practically nothing and it's fascinating that Conversely those people who who make

01:50:38

Hillsong songs the steady diet of what they worship to and what they what they sing to they also end up believing practically nothing and It's it's this weird kind of almost nihilistic approach to worship where we're gonna we're gonna we're not going to proclaim anything in what we believe except for our

01:50:59

Emotions and then at the end of the day that the Christians that produces our people who?

01:51:04

Well at the end of the day don't really profess anything It's just they feel really strongly about certain things and that that's exactly what

01:51:12

Hillsong is Producing and doing because their lyrics teach nothing and those who sing them end up believing nothing

01:51:21

Reverend Buzz Taylor has something to say. Well, I'm just kind of wondering you may have already partially answered this but Do you think and I'm playing the devil's advocate somewhat?

01:51:30

Okay, but Do you think some of the key to this is the words in worship that Maybe it's fine to live, you know, we listen to secular music in the home, you know, why not listen to Hillsong music but when it comes to worship, it has to be accurate and biblical and all that You know great question.

01:51:52

I Would prefer that Christians listen to secular music knowing that it's secular

01:52:03

I Love the Beatles and I hate to say this back when

01:52:09

I was in high school I was told that listening to the Beatles was demonic and that if I was a true

01:52:14

Christian I would burn my Beatles albums and listen only to Petra and Steve Taylor and And I actually bought it and I hate to say this, but I actually

01:52:24

Burned my vinyl copy of the Beatles White Album believing that that's what Chicago fire once when

01:52:33

I was in college yeah, I Didn't repent it and the nice thing is is that the man who

01:52:40

I think will become my son -in -law For my birthday gave me a vinyl copy of the of the Beatles White Album So I feel like come around but here's the thing when

01:52:49

I listen to the Beatles I don't expect that what I'm listening to is Christian and the reality is is that as a

01:52:55

Christian as I grow in sanctification and holiness What I found is is that those songs that are most egregious and offensive when it comes to the law of God I can no longer sing them or listen to them

01:53:10

I just when they come up on my playlist I skip to the next song but when I was younger in Christ, it wasn't quite as obvious and And when

01:53:20

I finally came back to secular music, you know, I had no problem singing things But I found that the longer

01:53:25

I'm a Christian there's certain things. I can't listen to it I'll give you an example on if you if you know the sting song every breath you take every move you make

01:53:35

I'll be watching you. I still love that song and then somebody told me you understand that's about a stalker

01:53:41

Don't you Wow and when I and I when I realized that I went oh my that's just totally rude for me

01:53:48

I'm literally that I took it off my playlist and deleted it for my iPhone because I cannot sing along to a song

01:53:54

That's about a man who's stalking somebody else That's that it runs so contrary to what the spirit and what

01:54:03

God's Word reveals in his law But I can't sing to it because it literally causes a crisis of conscience

01:54:09

And so I think over and again it would be and here's where it gets interesting I think it's better for Christians to have the collision between what

01:54:17

God is doing and sanctifying them and what they're listening to Because we know that the world does what the world does because the world is the world

01:54:26

But over and again, they think that somehow that because it has a Christian label on it nowadays

01:54:31

Therefore it must be safe. Therefore. I can sing to this. No, I find that that Christian so -called

01:54:37

Christian music is far more dangerous Nowadays then then secular music was, you know, 20 10 5 years ago

01:54:46

Yeah, you see what I'm saying? Yeah, but that that discussion reminds me of something I heard

01:54:51

Michael Horton on the white horse in Say a long time ago back in the 90s. I think it was he said when

01:54:58

I became a Christian I burned all my secular albums when

01:55:03

I became a Calvinist. I burned all my Christian We Have Joe all the way in Slovenia who says wow my two favorite discernment ministry personalities together

01:55:18

What a special treat the only question I could ask of brother Chris Roseboro is on this topic

01:55:25

And that's what can be done by us average believers out here Besides posting and emailing links to your discernment critics of the eras of Hillsong I'm constantly sharing episodes that both of you produce

01:55:39

But very few seem to be fazed by all the craziness coming out of Hillsong What does the apparent lethargy of visit of the visible church?

01:55:48

What does the apparent lethargy of the visible church regarding maintaining historical our orthodoxy?

01:55:55

Say about the overall condition of evangelicalism Okay Kind of working backwards the overall condition of American evangelicalism or evangelicalism as a whole right now.

01:56:08

It's a complete train wreck And that there's just no way around it But I would like to challenge your

01:56:15

Slovenian listener who apparently is also familiar with With fighting for the faith and that is this is that if you think the job is for you to forward links via Email I hate to break this to you

01:56:30

But you have missed the point of Chris's program as well as fighting for the faith the job of our programs is to help you understand what the scriptures say and give you the resources so that you personally own

01:56:47

These biblical arguments so that you personally can open up God's Word and you personally can from God's Word Warn people so the idea here is is that Chris's program and fighting for the faith and the other programs on pirate

01:57:02

Christian radio They are teaching programs to teach you the job is not for you to you know

01:57:08

Now I've got links that I can send to people although that would be helpful The better thing for you to do because you're the one who has the personal relationship with these people is to actually make it so that you now own these biblical arguments and You can open up the scriptures and use the sword of the spirit because believe me what

01:57:28

I tell you as brilliant as Chris Arden is and as fun as fighting for the faith is, you know

01:57:34

Theological waterboarding is just entertainment in and of itself as entertaining as that is

01:57:39

It's not effective in opening up people's eyes when they're being deceived only the

01:57:44

Word of God can do that So the goal is for you personally to know what the scriptures say so that you personally can open up the

01:57:53

Word of God Which is the sword of the spirit and then the sword of the spirit then will open up their eyes

01:57:58

Fighting for the faith doesn't open up people's eyes Chris Arden program doesn't open up people's eyes It's God's Word that does and if you think that that's what we're doing here is to open up eyes

01:58:09

No, no, you gotta understand We're opening up the scriptures and it's the scriptures that are opening up people's eyes Chris and I are just servants

01:58:16

It's the Word of God that does the work Amen and I want to let our listeners know before we run out of time that if you would like to find out more about pirate

01:58:24

Christian radio go to pirate Christian radio calm pirate Christian radio

01:58:29

Calm and if you want to know more about Kong's giver Lutheran Church in Oslo, Minnesota Go to Kong's vinger church org

01:58:37

Kong's vinger church org and it's ko n g s v is in victory I n g e r church org

01:58:44

Kong's vinger church org Chris Roseboro, it has been such a joy to be on the air with you

01:58:51

And if you could hold on I'd like to have a few words with you when we go off the air Sure, no problem.

01:58:57

And just to let our listeners know that we have Three more interviews scheduled with Chris.

01:59:03

We have an interview on Wednesday September 20th, and we have an interview on the

01:59:11

Wednesday. That's the 27th of September and I think we have another one, but I can't find it right now

01:59:18

But keep listening and we'll keep you posted on these upcoming interviews with Chris Roseboro I want to thank everybody who listened today.

01:59:25

I apologize to all of you who could not Where we could not ask and answer your question before the program ran out of time.

01:59:34

I Appreciate you writing in nonetheless And I hope you all always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater