August 23, 2017 Show with Chris Rosebrough on “Hillsong Church Examined: Are There Serious Doctrinal Problems Down Under Their Music?”

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Introduction and Proverbs 27:17

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors, Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27, verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another. Matthew Henry said that in this passage, quote, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions. Now here's our host. Good afternoon, Cumberland County,.

Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming on ironsharpensironradio .com. This is Chris Arnson, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Wednesday on this 23rd day of August 2017, and I'm delighted to have on this program today somebody that I've wanted to have on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio for years, and now we finally providentially have that opportunity.

His name is Chris Roseborough. He is a confessional Lutheran and pastor of Kongsvinger Lutheran Church in Oslo, Minnesota. He also runs Pirate Christian Radio and hosts the Fighting for the Faith podcast.

Today we're going to be addressing Hillsong Church Examined. Are there serious doctrinal problems down under their music? And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Chris Roseborough.

Thanks for having me, Chris. Yes, I say that somewhat tongue-in-cheek, having you on for the first time, because we just had you on a few seconds ago, or minutes ago, and there was technical problems, so we had to restart the whole program.

So hence all of you listening, that's why we're kind of restarting from the beginning here. But we have a bunch of things to talk about today, but before we get into the heart of our subject, I would like you to explain what a confessional Lutheran is.

I happen to be a confessional Baptist. My co-host, the Rev. Buzz Taylor, is a confessional Presbyterian, and you are a confessional Lutheran. Tell us what that means. Sure. So in talking about being a.

Confessional Lutheran, you have to put a modifier. So many people who call themselves Lutherans, who actually do not believe at all, can find in a work called the Book of Concord, and basically that would include confessions like the Apostles' Creed, the Nicene Creed, and the Athanasian Creed, as well as the Augsburg Confession, the Small Catechism, the Formula of Concord, and basically doctrinal writings like that.

Whereas today's that are very liberal, they deny the inerrancy of Scripture, they ordain impenitent homosexuals, they also ordain women and things like that. There's nothing Lutheran about them, yet alone Christian.

And so by saying I'm a confessional Lutheran, I'm making a distinction between what I believe... Yes,.

And you are, as I mentioned just a few minutes ago, or about a minute ago, you are the pastor of the Kongsvinger Lutheran Church in Oslo, Minnesota. Tell us about Kongsvinger. Sure. Well, you know something?

I happen to be Norwegian, at least on my father's side. At one point during a debate that I had orchestrated between my friend Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries and Father Mitch Pacwa, a Roman Catholic priest, during the opening announcements I announced to the audience that I was a Norwegian and Polish, and I said that means that my ancestors were Vikings that raided their own villages.

And after the debate, Father Mitch Pacwa punched me very hard in the arm. But anyway, but he actually thought it was pretty funny. But having said that, my ancestors, we have an interesting connection here, because my ancestors fled Scandinavia in the 19th century because they were Baptists being persecuted by the Lutheran church state.

And they were, the Lutheran government was, the Lutheran-run government was being, was arresting and fining Baptists who were performing the baptisms in the Lord's Supper without a Lutheran minister's license.

So I didn't even find this out. I was raised Roman Catholic. I didn't even find this out until my uncle did our family tree, did a lot of investigative research, actually flew to Norway and spent time there.

But the, my father was a Baptist, my father's father, I should say, was a Baptist who converted to Episcopalianism because his wife, my grandmother, was Episcopalian. And my father, who was Episcopalian, eventually when I was a about my Baptist roots until I had become a Baptist after my regeneration, my rebirth.

So this was quite an interesting fact. But that should not hinder our brotherly discussions.

Yeah, no, not at all. Any church, that always is a bad formula. And I think it's important to note that the... In fact, if they're not already, they'll be arresting people in Norway for different.

Reasons other than the good ones. Yeah. But, well, we have Pirate Christian Radio to discuss.

Tell us about Pirate Christian Radio. Sure. Online internet almost do him about that. Well, praise God for that. And just to give some credit to Salem, they do have some good.

Programming on there. They have John MacArthur and R .C. Sproul and Alistair Begg. And there are some theologically sound programs on there. But I have to tell you a story very briefly that I think that you will find humorous because it's nearly identical to the one you had.

I, after hosting Iron Sharpens Iron for several years, I got a phone call from the Salem station that I worked for 15 years. They had some familiarity with me because even though they were new in management, since I had a very long history with them, they knew that I was always one of their top one or two salespeople every month.

And I began filling in as a talk show host for the in-house host, Andy Anderson, who is now with the Lord. I began filling in for him a lot because they discovered that I had a great ability to book brilliant guests and write questions for the host.

So when he began to go on vacation or if he was sick, he would say, why don't you get Chris Arnson to fill in for me? So I caught the bug. And I when I left Salem, I started my own program and they called me.

The new program manager said that we'd like to meet with you about your show. We'd like to possibly add it to the lineup. So I went to New Jersey where they were located at the time, the headquarters, and at least for WMCA affiliate, that's where they were located.

And the program manager said to me, you know, I think that you're ready to host a program of your own on Salem, on WMCA here, but I got to tell you, I hate your show. And I said, excuse me? He said, yeah, you interview a theologian for two hours?

Are you kidding me? Boring. I said, okay, really? Well, what would you like me to do? He said, what we would like you to do? First of all, he said, I hate interview programs. But if you're going to do an interview program, you've got to do what David Letterman or Jay Leno do.

They have a guest on for tops four minutes. And then when they go to the station break, if the guest is really interesting and exciting, we'll have a person on for another four minutes tops, and then he's gone.

He or she is gone. And I said, so you're comparing truths that involve eternal life with what some moronic celebrity has to say about an anecdote that happened on the set of a movie they were filming?

You're like comparing these two things? I said, this doesn't even make any sense. I said, so what do you want me to do? He said, well, what we really want you to do is just take calls from our listeners.

The average listener, as you know, being in radio is a married woman, 25 to 54 with children in the household. And we want you to just take phone calls and chat with them about their daily problems. And without quoting the Bible too much, do a kind of what would Jesus do in their situations without getting theological or too biblical?

So I said, so you want me to do a one man version of the view? Is that what you're saying? I said, number one, if my wife heard that I was giving advice to women, you'd be able to hear her laughing all the way from Long Island, New York.

And number two, I'm not a pastor. Number three, I'm not a licensed counselor. Why on earth would you want me to be doing that? This is ridiculous. I said, thanks, but no thanks. But it was very interesting that you had the Becky story, because it seemed to be very similar to my experience.

Yeah, yeah. And that's funny enough,.

The same problem that you see in kind of the wider evangelical Christianity kind of as a whole, this abandonment of the idea of an in-depth understanding of God's Word, logical in our sermons, and everything switching over to kind of my life better.

And by the way, I have to.

Apologize to my co-host, the Reverend Buzz Daler. I have not introduced him yet, because I did the first time we went on the air, but since we had technical difficulties and returned to the air, I completely forgot to welcome him to the studio here.

But I am still here. All right. Even though I found out you're Norwegian. Well, why would you have a problem with Norwegians? What on earth? Were your ancestors raided by my ancestors? Oh, the Vikings, of course.

I do have a question,.

Though. How do you listen to Pirate Christian Radio? You go to piratechristianradio .com and click on the Listen Now button, and you can listen to our live stream, or you can look at our programming lineup and you can get the information on which podcast to subscribe to.

That's the main way of listening. And, you know, we have about eight hours of talk radio, new content every weekday that we loop three times because of our international audience. One of the things I've discovered in doing radio is that the average person who listens to talk radio never listens for more than six hours a day.

Outlier. Yeah, as do we here in Iron Sharpens Iron. It's amazing.

The global audience that we have. And going from the ridiculous to the sublime, meaning from some of the nonsense we were talking about in Christian Radio to Fighting for the Faith, your program.

Let us know something more about that. Sure. I do it two or five days a week, and the name of it is Fighting for the Faith. And this is, the best way I can describe it is that the theological equivalent of waterboarding, or the ice bucket challenge.

What I do on my program is we actually name names and play soundbites, and we do comparative work, where, you know, so, you know, somebody like a Brian Houston, or the sermon in words meaning things. When you look at the medieval community of the Virgin, it's not in the Bible.

Now, no, I'm on a very regular. Great. And one more thing. I understand that you're not.

In the Missouri Synod. I should say that Kongsvinger Lutheran Church in Oslo, Minnesota is not in the Missouri Synod, which is the one of the more conservative Lutheran denominations in the United States.

Tell us about the actual Synod that you're in.

Sure. Right. I don't know if the Trinity Lutheran Church in West Hempstead, New York is in that.

Synod. I think it may be, but my old friend that I haven't seen in years, Ray LaToire, is the pastor of that church, and I have a strong feeling it was in that Synod that you're in. Do you happen to know if Trinity and...

Okay, that's all right. I'd have to look on the internet. Okay. Well, we have quite an interesting topic today that I hope doesn't offend too many people who love the music of a church named Hillsong.

I know that they must be very popular. I'm kind of out of the loop with modern day Christian recording artists and the most popular of modern contemporary Christian music. Not that I don't like some of it or even a lot of it, but when I worked, or I should say when my radio program, Iron, Sharp, and Zirin was first launched, it was on a station that primarily played contemporary Christian music, and most of it made my stomach churn, and I just lost total interest in keeping up with the times with that.

Although there are groups like the Gettys, Keith Getty and his wife, who are purely biblical in their music, and other folks who I enjoy tremendously and who are edifying and bless me and whose music is not only God-honoring, but the lyrics are clearly theologically sound and so on.

But I've been seeing a lot of Hillsong music being posted on Facebook, and by the way, all my Facebook friends, my 5 ,000 Facebook friends, if you're wondering where I am, I don't know what happened, but Facebook kicked me off yesterday and I had to restart a new page.

I still don't have any clue of why that happened, why they did that to me. I'm only assuming I was promoting my show too much. I was really going gung-ho, publicizing Iron, Sharp, and Zirin radio and all kinds of pages, and I don't know if that had anything to do with it, but they kicked me off.

So any of you 5 ,000 folks that want to be my Facebook friend again, contact me or send me an invitation. But I'm seeing a lot of Hillsong music posted on Facebook, even by friends of mine who are theologically sound themselves.

So I think it's an important issue to address because of their popularity. Tell us something about Hillsong Church before we go to a break. And by the way, the reason people may be wondering why I asked you, Chris Roseborough, to conduct an interview on Hillsong Church in Australia when you're a Lutheran pastor in Minnesota, it's because I contacted a Christian ministry in Australia whose members remain anonymous publicly because of fear of lawsuits, but they are very concerned about the popularity of Hillsong Church in spite of the fact that they seem to have very soft views on the issue of homosexuality and other things.

And when I asked them to be a part of an interview, even if they were to remain anonymous, they declined but strongly urged me to invite Chris Roseborough, my guest today, to discuss this matter. So before we go to the break, tell us about Hillsong Church to begin with and why you became so aware of some problems that you believe exist there.

Sure. I mean, in general,.

We can talk about the fact that Hillsong is created by plain and large churches. That would actually need to be... Okay, great. And what you're saying sounds somewhat reminiscent of T .D.

Jakes. I don't want anybody to complain that I was insinuating Hillsong Church is a Oneness Pentecostal church like T .D. Jakes is, but there's a similarity in that there's a lot of vagueness and ambiguity and mystery cloaked around the theology of T .D. Jakes and the way that he defends himself against accusations of being an anti-Trinitarian.

Just leave me more confused than I was before the question was asked. But we're going to be right back after these messages from our sponsors. If you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Whether you agree or disagree with Chris Roseborough, whether you love Hillsong music or not, whether you just don't know, maybe this is a totally new subject to you, we would love to hear from you at chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside of the USA. And if you have to remain anonymous because it makes you feel more comfortable since your question may be a personal and private one, maybe you are going to try to defend Hillsong but you don't want to publicly identify yourself, whatever the case is, you may remain anonymous if it's about a personal and private matter.

But otherwise, please give us at least your first name, city and state, and country of residence. And don't go away, we'll be right back after these messages. I believe you'll also find World to be an invaluable resource to better understand critical topics with a depth that's simply not found in other media outlets.

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Radio blesses you for many years to come. Hi, I'm Pastor Bill Shishko, inviting you to tune.

In to a visit to the pastor's study every Saturday from 12 noon to 1 pm eastern time on WLIE radio, www .wlie540am .com. We bring biblically faithful pastoral ministry to you, and we invite you to visit the pastor's study by calling in with your questions.

Our time will be lively, useful, and I assure you, never dull. Join us this Saturday at 12 noon eastern time for a visit to the pastor's study, because everyone needs a pastor. Welcome back. This is Chris.

Arnzen, if you just tuned us in. Our guest today for the full two hours, with about 90 minutes to go, is Pastor Chris Rosebrough, and he is also the founder of Pirate Christian Radio and the host of the Fighting for the Faith podcast.

Today we are discussing Hillsong Church and examination, and if you would like to join us on the air, our email address is chrisarnzen at gmail .com, c-h-r-i-s-a-r-n-z-e-n at gmail .com. If you have a question, and we do have a number of people still waiting to have their questions asked and answered, but we'll get to you as soon as possible.

And by the way, Chris, you might find this interesting. Tomorrow on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, I have the Rev. Dr. Matthew Richard, pastor of Zion Lutheran Church in Gwinner, North Dakota, who is going to be discussing his book, Will the Real Jesus Please Stand Up? 12 False Christs.

And I do have to give a caveat to my listeners. I am not converting from Calvinism to Lutheranism. People may be starting to wonder, because you even have about three more dates scheduled to be interviewed here.

So the Lutherans are not taking over Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, but I love to have a Lutheran on whenever I can to discuss something of interest to our audience. And that, I think, would include what we're discussing today, because Hillsong seems to be very widely popular amongst Christians spanning the theological spectrum, even those that might be theologically conservative.

So if you could pick up where you left off and tell us more about why we should be concerned at all about these people.

That appear to be creating such beautiful music. The vision problem is that the chapter for teaching for the time is come at the different multi-site campai around the world. Now,.

Why is that? Why is that that you are paying such close attention to them?

Because I am them about anything. And that's exactly what they do.

And that brings up the serious importance of confessionalism that you mentioned earlier.

Right, exactly. The doctrine of the Trinity, go through the motions religiously, but don't have any faith. It was rebellion at the time of the Old Testament. Rebellion against most of the religious motions that you can navigate by.

You can't navigate by the need for people to fight or fight God's juggles of hours. Before we go into the issue of homosexuality, which is how.

I first heard about problems with Hillsong is when Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries started to contact the pastor there, or believe it perhaps was a United States satellite of Hillsong. I can't remember right now, but it was a, it was Hillsong, New York City.

It was Carl Okay. And he, Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries, a dear friend of mine since 1995, said that he had serious problems with their positions or lack thereof on homosexuality. But before we go there, are there any alarming things that should draw us attention specifically about doctrine that you know they teach?

And you've been just talking about how elusive they are, but is there anything concrete that you can say in addition to what you've already said.

Before we go on to the issue of homosexuality? Sure. I'm warm of the word of faith heresy, which basically was a guy who's put time in resorts and things of that nature, so he...

So I'm confused. Do you like this church or not? No. Obviously, I was just joking. We're going to a break right now, and this is going to be one of our elongated breaks because we have to comply with Grace Life Radio in Lake City, Florida, who insists that we, or requires, I should say, that we have our program submitted to them in two 54-minute chunks, so we have to have an elongated break in the middle.

I hope you'll be patient with us, but we will be back momentarily after these words from our sponsors with more of Chris Roseboro's critique of Hillsong, and if you'd like to join us, we already have a number of you waiting, and I know that you've been waiting quite a while, so please be patient, but if you would like to get in line behind them and join us with a question of your own on Hillsong, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com, c-h-r-i-s-a-r-n-z-e-n at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside of the USA and only remain anonymous if it's about a personal and private matter. Perhaps you disagree with your own pastor on Hillsong or something like that.

You'd rather not identify yourself. I understand, but we also welcome anyone to send in a question who is in favor or, should I say, allies themselves with Hillsong and wants to defend Hillsong. You may do that as well, but we are going to be right back, God willing, after these messages from our sponsors, so please do not go away.

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Or visit liyfc .org, that's liyfc .org. Welcome back, this is Chris Arnzen, if you just tuned us in today. Our guest for the full two hours, with just about an hour to go, is Chris Rosebrough, founder of Pirate Christian Radio.

We are discussing Hillsong Church and critiquing it and exposing some of the serious errors about Hillsong, and especially perhaps in regard to the issue of homosexuality, which we are going to be introducing into the conversation momentarily.

But before I return to the conversation, I have some important announcements to make. The Word of Truth Church in Farmingville, Long Island, New York, is having a 500th anniversary of the Protestant Reformation celebration.

That is going to be this coming September, and it's going to feature my friend from Toronto Baptist Seminary, Dr. Tony Costa, who is the professor of apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary.

And this is going to be, I'm sure, an exciting conference, and a fascinating one. Dr. Tony Costa, many of you may remember him. I had, back in January of this year, had him come out to Carlisle, Pennsylvania, to debate a Roman Catholic, Robert Syngenis, on the immaculate conception and perpetual sinlessness of Mary.

And Dr. Tony Costa did such an admirable, remarkable job in that conference, so I'm sure that you will indeed be edified by him. It's Friday, September 29th, and Saturday, September 30th, at the Word of Truth Church in Farmingville, Long Island.

If you'd like more information, you can go to wotchurch .com, that's W-O-T for Word of Truth, church .com, or you can call the Word of Truth Church at area code 631 -806 -0614, 631 -806 -0614. The very next day, Sunday, October 1st, at 11 a .m., Dr. Costa will be preaching at the morning worship service of Hope Reformed Baptist Church of Long Island, where my dear friend Pastor Rich Jensen is the pastor.

If you'd like to attend that service, you can go to hopereformedli .net, hopereformedli .net, which LI stands for Long Island, hopereformedli .net, or call them at 631 -696 -5711, 631 -696 -5711. And then, coming up in November, my friends at the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals are having their annual Quaker Town conference on Reformed Theology, and I, God willing, will be there with an exhibitor's booth, so I hope that you can join me there.

This is going to be on the theme, For Still Our Ancient Foe, a line certainly not unfamiliar to my guest, Chris Roseborough, For Still Our Ancient Foe, an obvious reference to Satan from the hymn of the great reformer, Martin Luther, A Mighty Fortress.

That's November 17th through the 18th. Speakers include Kent Hughes, Peter Jones, Tom Nettles, Dennis Cahill, and Scott Oliphant. And this is going to be held at the Grace Bible Fellowship Church in Quaker Town, Pennsylvania, and as I said, it's November 17th through the 18th.

If you'd like to register for that conference, go to alliancenet .org, alliancenet .org, click on Events, and then click on Quaker Town Conference on Reformed Theology. And then, last but not least, the G3 Conference is returning to Atlanta, Georgia, the G3 standing for Grace, Gospel, and Glory, and next year's theme—when I say next year, it's not that far away because it's in January—next year's theme is going to be Knowing God, a Biblical Understanding of Discipleship, and the speakers include Stephen Lawson, Votie Bauckham, Phil Johnson, Keith Getty, who I mentioned earlier as one of my favorite modern-day Christian recording artists, H .B. Charles Jr., Tim Challies, Josh Bice, my dear friend Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries, Tom Askell, Anthony Mathenia, Michael Kruger, president of Reformed Theological Seminary in Charlotte, North Carolina, David Miller, Paul Tripp, Todd Friel of Wretched Radio, who I have heard quote from Chris Roseborough from time to time on Wretched Radio and Wretched TV.

We have Derek Thomas and Martha Peace also speaking at the G3 Conference. If you'd like to register for that conference, go to g3conference .com, g3conference .com. If you register for any of these events or just want to find out more information and you contact these organizations running the events, please let them know that you heard about them from Chris on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

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Those advertisers that are currently keeping my program afloat want this program to remain on the air for a long time to come, but we need additional donations. If you are financially blessed with the capability of blessing Iron Sharpens Iron Radio with a donation of any amount without dipping into the regular giving you are accustomed to to your local church where you are a member, and hopefully you are a member of a local Bible-believing church, and if you're not you get to correct that quickly, but please never siphon money out of your giving to your church and never take food off of your family's dinner table.

Those two things are commands of God. Supporting my show is not a command of God, but if you are blessed above and beyond your ability to obey those two commands, providing for church and home, then please consider supporting Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

If indeed you love this program, it's a part of your daily life, you are edified greatly by it. If that is the case, please help us remain on the air with a donation or regular contributions as some of you have been doing, and I thank God for you, and I can't even describe in the English language how grateful I am.

But if you'd like to send in a check, go to ironsharpensironradio .com, ironsharpensironradio .com, click on support, and you'll be given an address where you can mail a check for any amount made payable to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

And if you want to advertise with me, as long as what you're advertising is compatible with the theology expressed on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, it doesn't mean you have to be a Calvinist or agree with me 100 on everything.