Roman Catholic Sympathies, Authenticities then George Bryson

Alpha & Omega Ministries

Subscribe

Download

Share

00

Comments are disabled.

00:12

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona, this is The Dividing Line.

00:19

The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us, yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence.

00:28

Our host is Dr. James White, director of Alpha Omega Ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church.

00:34

This is a live program and we invite your participation. If you'd like to talk with Dr. White, call now at 602 -973 -4602 or toll free across the

00:43

United States. It's 1 -877 -753 -3341. And now with today's topic, here is

00:50

James White. And good morning. Welcome to The Dividing Line on a

00:55

Thursday, not afternoon, but Thursday morning, as we announced on Tuesday, this

01:01

Thursday and next Thursday. Time change to allow me to teach a special topics in apologetics class for Golden Gate Baptist Theological Seminary in the evenings.

01:12

And they'll be doing that again this evening. And the time frame just did not allow the afternoon. So we're just doing it at the regular time in the morning.

01:19

And thank you for joining us for the program today. And then the 18th, the January 18th, we won't have a program because we haven't figured out how to do that from an airplane yet.

01:31

But it's possible. I will be teaching a class that night, though, using this thing.

01:36

I'm pointing at the webcam on my computer here. Yes, I think everybody just saw your fingertip.

01:43

Yeah. It just covered the whole thing. There you go. But except we'll be doing actual live streaming instead of just this little thing where it's every 10 seconds type thing because we'll be using.

01:55

Which one are we using? Windows Live Messenger or something. We tested it last night. And there you have a digital projector.

02:02

And so they're going to project what's on the screen for the class. So they'll see me. And then they'll have their camera aimed at the class.

02:09

So I'll see the class. Then they'll pass the microphone around to people and stuff like that. Oh, that sounds good.

02:15

So that's in West Broylston, Massachusetts. And then I'll be flying out there in March to do like three days of lecture or two days of lecture.

02:23

And then I'll be doing that from a church in New Jersey where I'll be speaking the next day.

02:30

So I'm flying to New Jersey to do the class in Massachusetts. But that's only – oh, good grief.

02:35

Anyway, you just couldn't do that stuff only a few years ago, you know. It's an amazing world we live in.

02:42

And speaking of amazing world, I linked this morning to a wonderful, just a beautiful, beautiful song boasted by the

03:02

Calvinist Gadfly. And it's just so beautiful. I think

03:07

I just have to share it with everybody. I hope it doesn't buffer too much. But this is from Pensacola Christian College, which is the same place that did – and see, what's really ironic here is this is a

03:23

King James only – they say TR only, but King James only school and very fundamentalistic.

03:28

And they're the ones that had Ted Leedus in about ten years ago.

03:37

And they had clearly no clue where Ted Leedus is actually coming from.

03:43

I have no idea what he was talking about, but it sounded like he was attacking all of us evil, terrible people who defend modern translations or some modern translations anyways.

03:52

And it was just so ironic to listen to those tapes that they produced where Ted Leedus was there.

04:01

So anyways, Pensacola Christian College. And recently – I don't know when this was – but the

04:08

Joy Quartet sang probably in one of the chapels. I had never heard this song before, and I hope to never hear it again.

04:21

But you know what? Digging around through stuff, I found some of the old

04:27

LPs. Yes, LP, for those of you who are in a certain age group, means long play.

04:33

And it's a round disc that's made of vinyl,

04:39

V -I -N -Y -L. My daughter thought that was vinyl. And you would put them on this thing called a turntable, and it would spin at 33

04:51

RPM. And then you'd put this arm down on it with a needle, and it would scratch along the surface of that thing and eventually wear it out if you did it too many times.

05:02

And it would play music. And I found some of my LPs. And I had the

05:09

LPs from some of the youth music that we did when I was a kid, especially at that one particular

05:16

Southern Baptist church. And there are a couple songs we sang that I still know that now that I heard them again,

05:22

I go, Oh, ouch, eee, you know, but I didn't know.

05:28

And I don't want anybody to think that anybody's making fun of these kids because these kids, they're just singing a song, man.

05:34

I mean, we had nothing to do with the choice of the music we sang. You know, the music director brought it in, and you learned your parts, and you just did what you had to do.

05:46

But it's the message of this song. Now, ironically, I'll comment afterwards, but the world's greatest scholar, scholar of everything known to man, knows more than anyone else ever knows.

06:00

The only reason this man has not become Roman Catholic and become the

06:06

Pope is because he lost two out of three Rock, Scissors, Paper with Ratzinger. And that's why he's still an

06:11

Anglican. But almost infallible in his own mind, the great

06:17

Dr. Paul Owen of Montreat College has commented on the Calvinist Gadfly blog. And see, if I say anything about anybody,

06:28

Paul Owen will defend them. So, in fact, E. Nielsen made a comment in Channel just a few moments ago that I thought was very insightful, as E.

06:37

Nielsen's very rare comments in Channel are normally insightful or plaid, one of the two. But he said,

06:44

I'm surprised that Owen hasn't yet castigated me, Dr. O, for speaking against the simple faith of a

06:49

Muslim apologist, who, after all, are merely products of their culture and exhibit a dynamic spirituality that Calvinists cannot hope to match in their pharisaical criticisms of Islam.

06:59

And, of course, he meant that tongue -in -cheek, but it is true. If I say something about Armenians, he will defend the

07:07

Armenians. If I say something about Mormons, he'll defend the Mormons. Obviously, if you'd say anything about Roman Catholicism, he'll defend the

07:12

Roman Catholics, as long as it's opposed to a conservative, certainly

07:19

Baptist. I mean, we know what he feels about Baptists. He has described Baptist ecclesiology, utilizing the term outhouse at one point.

07:28

But a reformed Baptist, a Calvinistic Baptist perspective is just the worst thing that could possibly exist for good old

07:36

Dr. Owen. But anyway, he's commented on this song as well and come to the rescue of these poor

07:44

King James -only fundamentalist kids. But if you haven't listened to it, well,

07:49

I'm sorry, but we're going to have to listen to it. And if you have, well, just make sure you don't start memorizing the words.

07:56

So it becomes one of those tunes that gets stuck in your head. Those LPs, if they got a little scratch on them, would just keep going over and over.

08:03

And sometimes the mind works the same way. It's a bad, bad thing. It's so great and he is so gracious that he gives us freedom to make our own choices.

08:18

And then we become responsible for those choices. This next song gives us

08:24

God's perspective on the freedom that he gives us. I set the boundaries of the ocean vast.

08:38

Carved out the mountains from the distant past.

08:46

Molded a man from the miry clay.

08:52

Breathed in him life, but he went astray.

09:00

I hold the waters in my mighty hand.

09:06

Spread out the heavens with a single span. Make all creation tremble at my voice.

09:18

But my own sons come to me by choice.

09:27

I own the cattle on a thousand hills.

09:33

I write the music for the whippoorwill. Control the planets with their rafts and rails.

09:43

But give you freedom to use your own will. Even the oxen know the master's stall.

10:00

And sheep will recognize the shepherd's call. I could demand your love,

10:07

I own you twice. But only willing love is worth the price.

10:19

I own the cattle on a thousand hills.

10:24

I write the music for the whippoorwill. Control the planets with their rafts and rails.

10:35

But give you freedom to use your own will. And if you want me to,

10:44

I'll make, I'll never force you, for I love you so.

10:58

I give you freedom, is it yes or no?

11:04

I give you freedom, is it yes or no?

11:11

I give you freedom, is it yes or no?

11:47

That is truly one of the greatest, not only themes of the word of God, but one of the greatest truths of God's word.

11:55

This incredible almighty God has allowed us the ability to choose.

12:04

We must realize that that is the greatest privilege of any of God's creation.

12:10

And yet, isn't it the most profound of all responsibilities that God has given us that ability to choose?

12:20

Now, you know, yeah, you know, we do choose.

12:27

And the problem is that we consistently choose that which is opposed to God and that which is in rebellion against God.

12:36

And this presentation of the omnipotent

12:43

God of creation, the omnipotent God of creation, who just sort of goes, oh,

12:48

I hope you'll take me up on my offer, is what we have out there. And of course,

12:54

Paul Owen got onto the Calvinist gadfly and quoted, you know, had to wax on about, you know, how brilliant he is and quoting the

13:05

Westminster Confession of Faith. The problem is he sort of, he quoted the wrong section. He was quoting the section about Adam and he sort of forgot to quote the section about once men have fallen, enemies of God, enslaved to sin, you know, the stuff that's actually relevant to the song.

13:23

But, you know, he's just got so much stuff going on, you know, trying to create this stuff called

13:29

Reformed Catholicism that, you know, we have to give him a pass on that. But, you know, completely missing the context of what they're actually saying.

13:36

We shouldn't really hold him accountable for any of that. And anyway,

13:42

I got an email. I want to start off actually the program of this. But then when I saw Owen's comments, had to had to go there.

13:52

Got an email this morning and just one of, you know, one of those kind emails that help you get your day started, encouraging, you know.

14:02

And here's here's and it ends in Christ. So this keep that in mind that it's going to end with Stephen saying in Christ Stephen.

14:13

So so we need to keep that in mind. It says, Mr. White, I was reading and listening to your hateful words about the church.

14:20

I worship God. Shame on you, sir. I have to be honest for what you have said about my church.

14:26

I have much anger for you. You wouldn't want to say some of the things you have said in front of me. Hmm. I wonder why.

14:34

Praise God. My church teaches me to forgive people like you. Thus, I forgive you. Your arguments are half truths.

14:41

You start out on false premises and much of what you have to say is just hateful and an outright lies.

14:46

You sound like an old man with much hate in you and are truly a false teacher.

14:52

Repent for what you have done to harm the household of God, his church and following answers.

14:59

Just one of your allegations about his church. The church is the truth, not your private interpretation.

15:05

I appeal to you to take down your site that condemns the church of the Holy Spirit. You know as well as I do.

15:12

If you have read scripture that our Lord established a singular church and that this church would not be divided.

15:20

You and your naivete are mocking this church.

15:28

I would also like to make you aware of how sinful this is. You must take down this site immediately and repent of your sin of the

15:36

Holy Spirit. I mean no harm to your group.

15:45

I will pray for you. And the hundreds you have convinced to believe in your

15:50

Popehood. Ha! Your private revelation that you had that convinced you that your private teachings are the truth.

15:58

For me and my household I will believe in and along with the other 1 .2 billion, all in capitals,

16:05

Catholics. The one, holy, catholic, apostolic church.

16:11

The only church in the world that claims to be established by Jesus himself. In Christ, Stephen.

16:28

Ha! Ha! And every single time I write back.

16:34

Every single time I write back. And say, fill in the blank. Name, doesn't matter, you know, whatever.

16:41

This thing came from like catholictruth .org or something. I've gotten a number of them from similar ISPs. Every single time

16:49

I write back and say, you mentioned half -truths. Could you maybe, you know, expand upon that?

16:58

Could you provide some documentation? Did you read, for example, this article?

17:03

If they mention, for example, the name Carl Keating or something, I'll go into our

17:09

Roman Catholic area and I'll point them to some texts that specifically refer to Carl Keating and provide documentation of errors in Carl Keating's argumentation.

17:20

I'll say, would you care to comment on this? How is this a half -truth? I mean, you said you looked at this stuff and you listened to this stuff, so could you provide some documentation every single time?

17:32

Well, if they respond at all, most of the time it's a bad email address, they don't even put the right email address.

17:39

But if they do respond, it's like, well, you know, I don't want to argue about these things.

17:47

Well, no, sir, you said, or ma 'am, you said you'd provide examples.

17:52

Remember when we brought someone on the air? In fact, I wrote to Steven and said, hey, we're going to be on the air today.

17:59

Here's a toll -free phone number. I'll pay the freight. Come on in. Give us a call. I'd love to hear about these half -truths.

18:05

You know, the audience would love to hear what you have to say. And you start pushing, and very quickly, well,

18:13

I didn't, you know, really read much. I read this article over here, or you said something in passing over there.

18:21

Oh, so you really don't know much about what I'm saying at all, do you? No, you don't.

18:27

And so, yeah, you just get these types of things. And it's fairly regular, fairly regular.

18:33

Oh, by the way, I did get another one. This is fascinating. This is fascinating. The definitive edition

18:41

DVD of The Passion of the Christ is coming out. The definitive edition

18:47

DVD of The Passion of the Christ is coming out. And, of course, they have the definitive edition, which, you know, is definitive.

18:55

You have to add something to it that wasn't in the original edition of the

19:00

DVD that came out. Otherwise, there's really not a whole lot of reason to do it, unless this is high -def or something. I suppose that would be one difference.

19:07

But anyway, it's coming out, and so they've added some stuff in. And what have they added in?

19:13

Guess who is participating in the theologian commentary with Mel Gibson?

19:20

It is, yes, Jerry Matitix.

19:27

Jerry Matitix. Hmm. So I started thinking.

19:35

Jerry Matitix. Now, Jerry Matitix is a settivacantist.

19:42

He doesn't believe that there has been any valid ordinations to the priesthood since, like, the time of Vatican II.

19:48

And so the current pope isn't really a valid pope. And he's into all this traditionalism,

19:56

Latin mass, all that stuff. He's gone his own way, you know. And now all those folks that used to tout him as the be -all and end -all of all things are just having to sort of go, well, he used to say some good things, and now he doesn't, you know.

20:12

And Catholic Answers, which, of course, had promoted him so heavenly – heavenly? Yeah, that too – and heavily in the late 80s and up to about January of 1991, when all of a sudden they stopped doing that.

20:27

You know, they're all off doing their own thing. They don't want to talk about Jerry anymore.

20:32

But what would happen, I wonder, if some of Mel Gibson's cash started flowing

20:41

Jerry Matitix's way? Now, I'm sure Jerry Matitix would greatly appreciate if some of Mel Gibson's stuff came his direction.

20:50

No two ways about that. But what an incredible mess it would create if all of a sudden

21:00

Jerry Matitix actually had the money to hire someone to organize his life. I mean, he really needs someone to organize his life.

21:09

The most unorganized man that I've ever met, ever, anywhere. That's just all there is to it.

21:14

He couldn't organize anything if his life depended on it. And so if he could get someone who could actually start organizing his stuff, publishing his stuff, doing things, this website, that kind of stuff, whoa.

21:28

What a mess he could create amongst the Roman Catholic apologists. I mean, they'd have to stop just ignoring him.

21:37

And you would end up getting to watch what happens frequently. And that is the great debate that would take place in regards to traditionalism and Roman Catholicism and modern

21:51

Catholic apologists and all the rest of that stuff. And it would be absolutely fascinating.

21:57

It truly would be. And that would just be another of the many, many problems that face our poor

22:05

Roman Catholic apologist friends today. One of the biggest problems that they face from my perspective is trying to deal with their own history.

22:16

Have you noticed that there just isn't much vital response from Roman Catholic leadership in regards to Islam?

22:23

I mean, after what happened with the Pope and his passing citation, just recognizing that there have been difficult times in the past, just mere recognition, the backpedaling that took place.

22:43

If you're looking for leadership from Rome in responding to Islam, you're not going to get it.

22:49

You're not going to get it. And there's a lot of reasons for that. But one of the reasons is that Rome's statements on Islam are so self -contradictory.

23:05

And let me just give you some examples of that so that you can see what

23:10

I'm talking about. If we go back in history, Rome's views on things such as Islam were not difficult to determine.

23:19

The Council of Florence in 1442 said the following. It firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that those not living within the

23:27

Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart into everlasting fire, which is prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before the end of life the same have been added to the flock, and that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is so strong that only to those remaining in it are the sacraments of the

23:51

Church of benefit for salvation, and do fastings, almsgiving, and other functions of piety and exercises of Christian service produce eternal reward, and that no one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the

24:09

Catholic Church. Now, that is not what the vast majority of Roman Catholics believe today.

24:16

The vast majority of Roman Catholics today are at least inclusivists, if not universalists, but what that meant when it was written is not arguable.

24:26

What it meant when it was written, you'll get all sorts of the most long, verbose discussions on the part of some

24:36

Catholic apologists today to try to spin these words into something that sounds like something that would be said by the

24:43

Roman Catholic Church today. But the problem, obviously, is that you would have to be able to demonstrate that in the context in which the words were originally stated, that the result would be the same thing that people are saying today.

25:03

But you can't do that. You can't go back to 1442. You can't go back to the Council of Florence, and you can't find people providing the context that would allow you to do that.

25:12

Words mean what words mean. And so, what you have today, the reason you have such milk -toast response on the part of Rome today to Islam is because of what happened in Vatican II.

25:28

And this is reflected in, of course, Lumen Gentium, and then coming into the

25:34

Universal Catholic Catechism of the Catholic Church. And so, we have in Section 841, one of the most famous of the sections,

25:42

Section 841, the following. The Church's relationship with the

25:47

Muslims. The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator in the first place amongst whom are the

25:53

Muslims. These profess to hold the faith of Abraham. And here's the phrase.

25:59

Listen to this. See if you can come up with anything other than what this means. And together with us, they adore the one merciful

26:09

God, mankind's judge on the last day. Now, what does that, together with us, they adore the one merciful

26:19

God. What does that mean? It doesn't mean separately from us.

26:25

It doesn't mean together with us, they worship a different God. The section says, together with us, they adore the one merciful

26:34

God. So, Rome has made it clear in her official pronouncements that as of the modern period anyway,

26:43

Islam is worshipping the same God we worship. The one merciful God. So, you can adore the one

26:50

God while denying the Trinity, denying the deity of Christ, and denying the crucifixion of Christ.

26:56

You can still adore God. You're still worshipping the same God if you do that. Section 1260 says, since Christ died for all, theology matters.

27:09

And since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the

27:14

Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers in a way known to God of the paschal mystery.

27:21

Every man who is ignorant of the gospel of Christ and of his church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God, theology matters.

27:29

In accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired baptism explicitly if they had known of its necessity.

27:39

This is the Willy Wonka way of salvation clause in the Universal Catholic Catechism.

27:46

This is, oh, thank you very much, Mr. Dell Support. I don't like Dell Support.

27:51

They shouldn't do things like that. Thank you very much. That's very pretty, isn't it? Very awesome sound.

27:57

You will be assimilated. It's sort of a Borg sound, isn't it? This is the foundation for inclusivism in the

28:06

Roman Catholic system. And you'll see what it's based upon. Christ died for all, universal atonement, and a universal redemptive will, since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine.

28:21

Then you follow through with that. And it has been said many times, Arminianism has no consistent stopping place between itself and universalism.

28:29

And that's really what you have here at the same time. But then we also have, before we take our break, which

28:37

I have been informed we will take today, my microphone will just simply disappear. And the break will start at some point because somebody wants to have a break today.

28:45

So we're going to take a break today. I just want you to know it's not me forcing us to take the break today. I just want to make sure it's all well understood.

28:52

But in Nostra Aetate 3, we have another discussion of the

28:59

Muslims, here called the Moslems. You can see how far back this goes. The church regards the esteem also the

29:05

Moslems. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in himself, merciful and all -powerful, the creator of heaven and earth, who has spoken to men.

29:14

Now, of course, what do Moslems think he has spoken to men? Today, he's spoken in the

29:21

Quran, and what was in the Old and New Testaments has been corrupted. But we won't talk about that.

29:27

Who has spoken to men, they take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even his inscrutable decrees.

29:34

Just as Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking itself, submitted to God. Though they do not acknowledge

29:40

Jesus as God, they revere him as a prophet. They also honor Mary, his virgin mother.

29:47

At times, they even call on her with devotion. In addition, they await the day of judgment when God will render their desserts to all those who have been raised up from the dead.

29:56

And, of course, when they wipe out the Jews and the Christians. Finally, they value the moral life and worship

30:02

God, especially through prayer, almsgiving, and fasting. So, here you have these official statements from Rome.

30:08

And if this is the official statement of your church, how can you apologetically engage the claims of Islam?

30:15

In regards to the Quran, the Bible, who Jesus is, the cross, crucifixion, the whole way of salvation.

30:22

When your church has basically embraced an inclusivistic acceptance that you can actually adore the one

30:31

God while rejecting, openly and knowledgably, the revelation he's made of his actual nature.

30:39

That's what you can do. And so, if this is what Rome is teaching, and it is what

30:44

Rome is teaching, it's no wonder they have very little of substance to say in response.

30:51

Okay, it's 1130. Time for a break, folks. Be right back. Pulpit Crimes.

30:58

The criminal mishandling of God's word may be James White's most provocative book yet. White sets out to examine numerous crimes being committed in pulpits throughout our land every week as he seeks to leave no stone unturned.

31:10

Based firmly upon the bedrock of scripture, one crime after another is laid bare for all to see.

31:16

The pulpit is to be a place where God speaks from his word. What has happened to this sacred duty in our day?

31:22

The charges are as follows. Prostitution, using the gospel for financial gain. Pandering to pluralism.

31:29

Cowardice under fire. Felonious eisegesis. Entertainment without a license. And cross -dressing, ignoring

31:36

God's ordinance regarding the roles of men and women. Is a pulpit crime occurring in your town? Get Pulpit Crimes in the bookstore at aomen .org.

31:54

This portion of the dividing line has been made possible by the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church.

31:59

The Apostle Paul spoke of the importance of solemnly testifying of the gospel of the grace of God. The proclamation of God's truth is the most important element of his worship in his church.

32:10

The elders and people of the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church invite you to worship with them this coming

32:16

Lord's Day. The morning Bible study begins at 9 .30 a .m. and the worship service is at 10 .45.

32:23

Evening services are at 6 .30 p .m. on Sunday and the Wednesday night prayer meeting is at 7 .00.

32:29

The Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church is located at 3805 North 12th Street in Phoenix.

32:35

You can call for further information at 602 -26 -GRACE. If you're unable to attend, you can still participate with your computer and real audio at PRBC .org

32:47

where the ministry extends around the world through the archives of sermons and Bible study lessons available 24 hours a day.

32:54

What is Dr. Norman Geisler warning the Christian community about in his book Chosen But Free? A New Cult? Secularism?

33:00

False Prophecy Scenarios? No, Dr. Geisler is sounding the alarm about a system of beliefs commonly called

33:06

Calvinism. He insists that this belief system is theologically inconsistent, philosophically insufficient, and morally repugnant.

33:15

In his book The Potter's Freedom, James White replies to Dr. Geisler, but The Potter's Freedom is much more than just a reply.

33:21

It is a defense of the very principles upon which the Protestant Reformation was founded. Indeed, it is a defense of the very gospel itself.

33:29

In a style that both scholars and laymen alike can appreciate, James White masterfully counters the evidence against so -called extreme

33:36

Calvinism, defines what the Reformed faith actually is, and concludes that the gospel preached by the

33:41

Reformers is the very one taught in the pages of Scripture. The Potter's Freedom, a defense of the

33:46

Reformation and a rebuttal to Norman Geisler's Chosen But Free. You'll find it in the Reformed Theology section of our bookstore at aomin .org.

34:00

And welcome back to The Dividing Line on a Thursday morning, unusual time, but we'll be at the same time next

34:06

Thursday as well and next Tuesday as well, 11 a .m.

34:11

Mountain Standard Time, 1 p .m. I believe Eastern Standard Time or whatever it is out there on the

34:19

East Coast. Let's take a few phone calls here. And first call is about good old Dan Corner.

34:24

Hello, Adam. Hello, Dr. White. Yes, sir. I was calling.

34:30

I'm the person who's been in your channel that has had Dan Corner speak at my aunt's church.

34:37

Yes, sir. And I was listening to the two programs very intently. And I have to say, given the fact,

34:45

I think I called before and mentioned that I was thinking of going into Hebrew studies and things like that. As I say,

34:51

I've never seen a worse performance by an exegete over two days than I saw from Dan Corner. It was just sometimes,

34:58

I mean, just laughable. Well, certainly, yeah. I mean, the idea that Mr.

35:04

Corner – let's be generous and recognize that Mr. Corner most certainly reads his

35:12

Bible and he knows where to find stuff. But he is a clear example of what happens when you have an overriding system, you have a theology already in place, so that a couple of times,

35:26

I'd say at least three times that I recall hearing, he would be backed into a corner on something he just said.

35:32

And he would, in essence, go, well, I may have misspoken there, and I didn't mean to say this.

35:39

And all of a sudden, he'd come up with a new reading for the text that he had just said something else on. So the text, you know, when you're a one -string banjo player, and that's what

35:50

Mr. Corner is. He's a one -string banjo player. He has one string, and he's only got the notes on that one string, and that is eternal security.

35:58

Once saved, always saved. That's all he wants to discuss. That's all he wants to focus on. Don't ask him to talk about the

36:04

Trinity or the deity of Christ or things like that. Let's just focus on this one thing.

36:10

And that becomes the overriding parameters that determine how it is he's going to read any text or scripture.

36:20

And we saw that illustrated a number of times during the course of those programs.

36:25

So I think calling him an exegete, when it seems fairly clear to me he does not know the original languages and is not willing to examine the exegesis offered from other perspectives, is being a little bit too generous.

36:43

Yeah, a little too generous there. You know, this is really, really funny. I mean, there was one point I was looking at the

36:49

Hebrew text. He was trying to argue that a person that commits adultery once is an adulterer, and therefore falls under the condemnation of, you know, 1

36:56

Corinthians 6 -9, where it says, these will not inherit the kingdom of heaven. And he quoted it and said, adulterer and adulteress.

37:03

And it was funny, I was looking at the text, and I'm thinking here, there are two participles here.

37:09

You know, you have an article and then a participle. And I'm just thinking, how is that a noun?

37:16

Well, participles can function as nouns depending upon the context in which they're found, especially when they have an article in front of them, certainly.

37:24

But his problem was that – and he didn't want to discuss this – was the discussion of his own worry and his willingness to make certain sins light and momentary, and then other sins are really serious.

37:43

And we didn't really get a clear answer from him as to whether he continues to sin. He said he crucified the sin nature, but you got a lot of different questions out of him on that one.

37:55

What I was thinking, though, is if you look at, for instance, the passages where adulterers and adulteresses are specifically like in the

38:02

Book of Proverbs, you have entirely different nouns that are used. I mean, you have the strange woman, the odd woman, and I'm just thinking to myself, what

38:11

I've got to say is, has he ever gone through and translated passages like that? Well, no, and you wouldn't expect him to do so.

38:20

I mean, obviously, we're talking about different language in Proverbs than we are in 1 Corinthians, but you wouldn't expect someone like Dan Korner to do that.

38:28

The only reason that Dan Korner ever touches upon original language issues is if he's read what somebody else has said and goes, oh, that sounds like it would support my position.

38:38

He's not doing exegesis. He's not coming to the text and seeking to handle it in that way because that's not his purpose.

38:45

His purpose in life is to promote the concept that you can lose your salvation, you're saved by grace, but then, in essence, kept by your personal holiness.

38:54

And that's his thing, and you would not expect – he isn't concerned about converting someone who's knowledgeable.

39:02

He's not concerned about that. That's why he won't debate me on the subject because he's not concerned about me.

39:08

He's not concerned about the people that I've already talked to. He's only concerned about a much smaller audience, his audience, and they're not going to be people who necessarily are going to be overly impressed by a discussion of Greek and Hebrew terms either.

39:21

So you only do what you need to do to keep your primary audience happy, and that's what he's doing.

39:27

So anyway, but it was definitely educational. That's one thing

39:33

I definitely thought. I mean, I can't believe that the people found this stuff compelling at my aunt's church.

39:40

I mean, it was just so bad. Well, remember, at least when he's speaking alone, he's not going to have anyone – even though he's talked over Gene a good bit – he's not going to have anyone asking him serious questions that display where he's really coming from.

39:55

So that's not actually overly surprising that they would find him compelling because anyone can make a good case until someone comes along and you've got that thing called examination that takes place.

40:07

So anyway, he's got lots of calls today. Thank you for your call today, and let's move on to Jeff back in Pennsylvania.

40:15

How are you doing, Jeff? I'm getting over a cold, Dr. White. Oh, well, you know, it happens to the best of us.

40:22

Well, that's what I hear. I had a question. Oh, by the way, thank you for going over the universalism with Roman Catholicism.

40:33

I shared that with some Catholics last year, and it kind of blew their mind a little. Really? I mean, were they just really conservative

40:40

Catholics and weren't aware of what was going on? It was online. It was with a young group, so it was a mixture.

40:47

It was like a young adult group, so it was a mixture of pretty ardent Catholics and kind of like ardent culturally kind of Catholics.

40:57

It's like when you're faced with a real -life contradiction and there's no possible way of reconciling it.

41:07

It was just kind of like opening up a grenade and throwing it in a room.

41:16

I understand. I had a question about the new perspective, and it touches on when you went over Acts 15,

41:24

I believe, last month. Okay. Okay? Right. In verse 1 of chapter 15 in Acts, it mentions that certain men came down from Judea and said, unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.

41:45

And I was wondering what the new perspective people do with that, because that pretty much,

41:50

I think, if I remember correctly, that kind of goes counter to one of their underlying premises.

41:59

Well, no. They would definitely say Paul was opposing the entire concept that a person, and I see for them justification does not involve imputation, does not involve a transfer of anything from God to the believer, anything along the lines.

42:21

And so what they would understand is what's going on here is people were saying that you had to enter into the old covenant to be a part of the church.

42:31

And they say, from the new perspective viewpoint, the justification is about ecclesiology and the membership of the church, not about soteriology and salvation itself.

42:43

And so they would say that the great error of the Judaizers, from Paul's perspective, was just this, that they were adding to faith in Christ as the means by which you enter into the church.

42:57

And so they would see this in light of the situation in Antioch, where you have the division at table where you have the

43:10

Jews on one side and Gentiles on the other side. And that's the division that at least N .T.

43:16

Wright sees as being the great danger. And if we would all just follow his understanding of justification, then the division that exists between Catholics and Lutherans and Anglicans and so on and so forth in regards to the

43:30

Eucharist would be healed and we could all come to one table. And basically the

43:36

Reformation just sort of missed all of that. And that basically Catholics and Protestants have been arguing the wrong point all along.

43:44

If we would just follow his perspective, you'd have the unification of the church and all would be well. And so if what you're focusing on is that term saved, yeah, then

43:56

I would agree, because this clearly is addressing a soteriological issue.

44:01

But he would just simply say that was the excess of the Judaizers, and that, as I read on the last program, he asserts there were many people who were justified by faith who didn't know they were justified by faith, including, evidently, the

44:16

Judaizers themselves. Well, I guess, yeah, my point was that since they want to make it about the problems in Galatia, about ecclesiology as opposed to soteriology, this verse kind of says, no, it was about soteriology.

44:32

It seems like the dichotomy they're trying to raise is like, I don't think in the first century or even through the

44:40

Westminster Confession, London Baptist Convention, if you're not in the covenant community, there's no concept of you're okay if you're not in the covenant community.

44:55

It's kind of like a hand -in -hand sort of thing. And it seems like the New Perspective people completely missed that.

45:02

It's like, why was it so important that you had to be in the covenant community? Right. Well, let's make sure we understand when we say the

45:09

New Perspectives, we should be saying the New Perspectives, plural, because I was primarily looking at the subject of N .T.

45:20

Wright at that point. I wasn't really looking at – there's so many other different perspectives out there that each one's going to have its own spin.

45:27

Sanders is going to have his own spin and things like that. But I addressed a lot of this stuff last year in December of 2005 at Covenant of Grace Church in St.

45:40

Charles on the lectures there. So those are still available online if you wanted to Google that.

45:48

You might be able to pull up some more information, discussion. Did you say 2005? Yeah, December 2005, Covenant of Grace Church, St.

45:55

Charles. I've got the links to their website on my blog someplace too. So if you just do a search on Covenant of Grace Church, it should pull it up.

46:03

Okay? All right, thank you. All right, thank you, and get better. Thank you. Bye -bye. 877 -753 -3341, let's talk with Greg.

46:11

Hi, Greg. Yes, Dr. White. Yes, sir. I wanted to ask a question concerning Reformed theology.

46:18

Acts 17, the whole context there where Paul is speaking in Athens, this sermon there, verse 26 and 27 is where I had a question about.

46:27

Verse 26 is about how God has determined where every person will live. Verse 27 is about how

46:32

He did this so that men would seek Him and perhaps reach out for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each of us.

46:39

How would you deal with that as far as the sense of God drawing us and God enabling us to come to Him?

46:45

Well, I don't think that it's what Paul is addressing. Paul is addressing here just a very basic contrast between the fundamental issues of theism and the fundamental issues of polytheism.

46:59

He's talking to people here who believe in many gods and are involved in the worship of many gods, and he is simply introducing them to the idea that there is one

47:11

God. And for us, that seems so basic and so simple. It's been a part of our upbringing from the beginning that we don't realize what a revolutionary concept that is.

47:24

This is one of the main reasons that the people of Israel, the Jewish people, were detested by Greeks and Romans because of an incipient arrogance on their part.

47:35

And, of course, the arrogance that they actually had didn't help, but the whole concept that there is just one

47:40

God and our God created everybody and you don't even have any gods led to them being called atheists and Christians being called atheists, too, because they denied the existence of the gods over against just one

47:53

God. And so there's a radical difference between the two. And so in discussing this one, this unknown

48:00

God, he is describing a whole host of things about this one

48:05

God, that He is Lord of Heaven and Earth. He does not dwell in temples made with hands. He doesn't need anything.

48:11

He Himself gives to all people life and breath. And, of course, from their perspective, some of these gods actually came out of the earth or they were actually dependent upon human beings for this, that, and the other thing.

48:23

And then the fact that He has placed men in various and sundry places, He has determined their appointed times, the boundaries of their inhabitation.

48:32

And all of this means that God has spoken in the creation and in His dealings with men, which is the point that is made in Romans chapter 1.

48:41

And that is God has revealed Himself. Men are unapologetic. They are without an apologetic.

48:48

They're without a defense. And if they were to simply act upon that which they see around them, there is sufficient revelation in the natural realm.

48:58

And He hasn't even gotten to spiritual death, fall, Adam, none of that stuff. He's not addressing those things.

49:04

He's not giving us Romans here. He's talking to people where as soon as He says resurrection, He's going to get shouted down in essence.

49:11

He knows this. He's just trying to do something very basic here. And if people would respond positively to what's in natural creation around them, well, then they would seek

49:24

God and they'd find God and things like that. He's not addressing whether they will or will not. He's not addressing whether they have the capacity in and of themselves to do so or not.

49:33

He hasn't even been able to lay a foundation at this point. I mean, I've never taken the time to do so, but it would be interesting to see how many words actually we have even recorded for us in Acts 17 before we get to this point.

49:45

Because this is where people will go to say, oh, see, Paul really didn't mean what he said in Romans 3.

49:52

You're not understanding Paul correctly or something like that. They'll go here and they'll say, ah, see, this is a universal statement that all men have the capacity because of some prevenient grace or whatever to be able to seek

50:05

God and to find him without the assistance of the Holy Spirit of God. And to take a situation where Paul in a matter of sentences is brought into a pagan situation with religious people and he's using the unknown

50:24

God as a means to try to open up some means. And he does so. He's not there for very long. But he does open up that dialogue to go there instead of the reasoned presentation in Romans demonstrates that somebody has an agenda here.

50:41

And I'll leave it up to the unbiased person to go. Hmm. Do you take the thought out presentation of Romans where Paul's writing to a church?

50:48

He wants this letter to be distributed all over the known world. He's going point by point by point laying out theology.

50:53

Or do you go to an unusual situation in the Areopagus in Greece and in Athens and the illustration that Paul tries to use to introduce the difference between monotheism and polytheism and the fact that God has revealed himself to what has been created to be not what you people worship, but what we are attempting to present to you.

51:18

That to me is a clear indication of the differences between the two. And then

51:23

I think that continues on verse 28. For in him we live and move and exist, even as some of your own poets have said, we are also his children, quoting something that they would be familiar with, making a connection there.

51:35

And then going on from that to argue that means the divine nature is not like gold or silver or stone, etc.,

51:40

etc., etc. So I see it as a statement of general revelation and mankind's being created in the image of God.

51:49

He hasn't even gotten to the point of being able to discuss the fact this one true God has given us his law.

51:55

We've violated the law of sin, blah, blah, blah. He hasn't even gotten there yet. So it reminds me a little bit of what

52:01

Greg Stafford, the Jehovah's Witness, is doing these days when he is attacking God's exhaustive knowledge of future events, not by going to Isaiah, not by going to the text that actually addressed these issues, but by going to Genesis and going, well, see,

52:18

God's walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and he doesn't know what's happened, which would actually mean

52:24

God doesn't know what the past is either. But he brings the animals to Adam to see what he would name them, because God doesn't know what he's going to name them.

52:32

He has no idea. You've got this interactive God, open theism, blah, blah, blah stuff. And instead of going to the text where God directly addresses these things, and he does so in a particular context that is demonstrating he's the one true

52:44

God over against false gods, you wander off to other texts and clear indication that you have an agenda and that you are seeking to avoid something that's actually fairly clearly taught in the scriptures itself.

52:57

Right. Okay. Thank you very much. Thank you, Greg. I appreciate it. All right. God bless. Bye -bye. Yes, indeed. Act 17, not only a favorite of Pelagians, Arminians, but also of Mormons as well.

53:07

A lot of people are not aware of that. We haven't had the opportunity to get back to George Bryson.

53:14

I want to at least get a few minutes in here before we close up the program. As you recall, we were listening to him, in essence, telling people that Calvinists do this, oh, these are deep things and we really can't answer these questions stuff, which we sort of laughed at because it's actually the other way around.

53:35

But that's where we were. Let's pick up with that. Lots of things about this issue that contradict election.

53:41

If election is true, the things God said are true, can be true. And we'll see that in a moment.

53:47

And that's why they talk about this. You know, as soon as you raise the issues that throw cold water in the face of a reform distinctive, they'll say, oh, but that's too deep for us.

54:00

It's too deep for you. Get out of the water, man. You see, it doesn't look that deep to me.

54:06

I'm going to take a swim here and see what I find out. And find out it's really pretty shallow.

54:12

I just keep that in mind because this is right before the Bible Answer Man broadcast.

54:18

And so keep that in mind. Go listen to the Bible Answer Man broadcast. Remember, we played the cross examination from the debate, which took place before this.

54:26

But go listen to the Bible Answer Man broadcast. Listen to his responses to issues. He couldn't even begin to address the nature of God's knowledge.

54:34

Well, God knows future events because God knows what happens in the future.

54:42

It's like, OK, you're in the shallow end there, definitely, you know. But have you, you know, he's the one saying, oh, it's very shallow.

54:50

And they're the ones that avoid all those things. But then when you start actually pushing the issue, you don't get much in the way of substantive responses.

54:56

The doctrine of election is an invention to support some very disturbing thoughts.

55:03

But it is not a biblical concept. And I know saying this, I'm talking in front of a bunch of biblicists here, right?

55:09

And some of you are probably thinking about some passages going, oh, that doesn't care, doesn't it there? If you look at every passage about election in the

55:16

New Testament, you'll find nothing even closely related to the Calvinist doctrine.

55:21

That's called poisoning the well. Rather than going to the text and building your theology from that, what

55:29

George Bryson and the Calvary Chapel folks are doing is it can't be what they're saying. Just trust us on one thing.

55:36

Before we look at any text of scripture, before we open up the text, before we look at anything, it can't be that.

55:43

Whatever you do, it can't be that. Exactly that. But who's the expert on what the doctrine of election is?

55:51

John Calvin. That's his idea. He came up with it, right? No, he did not come up with it. And here is immediately the disconnection between George Bryson and any type of meaningful historical examination of the subject is

56:08

John Calvin came up with it. No, he didn't. Martin Luther talked about it before John Calvin did.

56:15

You can go back and ever heard of God's chalk? I doubt he has. But we sort of need to go back into history to people like Augustine.

56:23

And even Augustine didn't make it up in any way, shape or form. These texts are right there in the surface of the scripture itself.

56:32

And so to say, well, John Calvin made all this up is to show just an incredibly abysmal ignorance of the reality of the situation.

56:42

Actually, he says he got it from St. Augustine. Yeah. But let's just take his definition.

56:51

You know that he cites Augustine. You know that he takes it back there. So why tell these people, first of all, that Calvin made it up when

57:00

Calvin himself says that he didn't in any way, shape or form? Why not go back to those earlier discussions?

57:06

Because maybe you're afraid that you're going to sound way too much like Pelagius. Maybe you're you're you're afraid that someone's going to go, hey, wait a minute.

57:15

Was there ever anybody actually who believed like you believe on on these things?

57:22

You know, which side were you really on on these issues? Becomes the question with the second point, unconditional election in mind.

57:30

John Calvin says this by predestination, another synonym for election. We mean the eternal decree of God by which he determined with himself whatever he wished to happen with regard to every man.

57:42

Now, we stop there because we're almost out of time, but also to demonstrate that this man who claims to be such an expert on Calvinism just said that predestination and election are synonyms for one another.

57:54

And yet we know that even in Calvin predestination, he just said, yes, with every man, but also with all of creation itself, election is unto eternal life and grace.

58:06

Predestination includes that. But I don't hear any sound going on here.

58:12

But there we go. Includes that. But it is not a synonym.

58:18

If you if you make them synonyms like that, you're going to end up creating confusion, which, of course, is exactly what he wants to do to begin with.

58:26

That's the whole purpose in this is to. It's very similar what Jehovah's Witnesses do with the Trinity. When they present it right in one in one page and wrong the next page, they are creating purposeful confusion on the part of their readers, hoping that people will think, well, this can't possibly be true because it's self -contradictory.

58:41

We'll pick up with George Bryson and your calls 11 o 'clock Tuesday morning. See you then. God bless.

59:42

The dividing line has been brought to you by Alpha and Omega Ministries. If you'd like to contact us, call us at 602 -973 -4602 or write us at P .O.

59:51

Box 37106, Phoenix, Arizona, 85069. You can also find us on the

59:56

World Wide Web at AOMIN .org. That's AOMIN .org, where you'll find a complete listing of James White's books, tapes, debates and tracks.