Can God Become Man? Part 3

Formal Rebuttals on the Incarnation and the Gospel of John

Second and final round of rebuttals, and then we're going to be opening it up to questions. So I'll ask you to please begin to succinctly capture your question, and think of one question, so you can ask the speakers your question.

You'll be given that opportunity. But right now, let's invite Dr. White to the podium for his five-minute rebuttal.

Five minutes is not long enough, so I'm going to have to talk even faster. We believe that Jesus was a prophet. We believe that Jesus was a man. We just believe more than that. You cannot limit him to that, because the New Testament does not allow you to do so.

I'm going to try to get, very, very quickly, Bashir was just talking about Mary and the Queen of Heaven and things like that. I've written entire books on this subject. I've debated numerous Roman Catholics on this subject.

Let's look at what the Bible says, and he says, well, the Koran can't be faulted for dealing with that. Folks, even Rome hadn't developed the idea of worshiping Mary at the time of Muhammad. So Surah 5, verse 16 cannot be taken in that way, because Rome did not develop those dogmas until long after that time period, so you can't really go there.

But I want to just answer four things, because in my book, The Forgotten Trinity, I have entire chapters on some of the things that Bashir just addressed, so I wanted to deal with them very, very quickly.

First of all, Bashir just said John 1, verse 1 says, Jesus had a beginning. That is wrong. The word ein is the imperfect form of I mean. It does not point to a beginning or origin. If he had wanted to say Jesus was begun or created, he would use the aorist agenita, which he uses in the rest of the prologue.

The use of the imperfect means that John is specifically denying that the logos comes into existence at a point in time. It is simply inappropriate in the Greek language, impossible in the Greek language to say what was just said.

Then we had the discussion of prototokos at Colossians 1 .15. Prototokos does not mean the first created thing. It means the one who has preeminence over others. Look at the use of prototokos in the Greek Septuagint in regards to Israel.

It does not mean that Jesus is created. In fact, the very next words after Colossians 1 .15, I quoted to you earlier, for he is before all things. In him all things hold together. By him were all things made.

We're in heaven and earth, visible and invisible. All things created by him and for him. That's the description that Paul goes on to say, which is why the Jehovah's Witnesses have to mistranslate that section and insert the word other in there.

Because it goes on to describe Jesus as the creator of all things. Prototokos does not mean created at Colossians 1 .15. Then we had the egoimi text. I have an entire chapter on this in the Forgotten Trinity.

I want you to take a look at that if you get a chance to. But interestingly enough, when Bashir mentioned that Jesus uses egoimi in John chapter 13, he didn't give you the proper context. When Jesus uses it in John 13 .19, he uses it in the context of telling his disciples what's going to happen in the future.

And if you look at the exact language that he uses in John 13 .19, it's a beautiful thing. He's quoting from the Greek Septuagint, and guess what verse he's quoting from? Isaiah 43 .10. The very verse Jehovah's Witnesses get their name from, where Jehovah says, I'm going to tell you before it happens, so when it happens, you may know and believe that egoimi, I am.

If you actually look at Jesus' use of I am, it does not come from Exodus chapter 3. It comes from the use of I am throughout Isaiah, Jeremiah, and the Minor Prophets, where it's used as a synonym for the name Yahweh.

And what did the Jews recognize when Jesus used egoimi in John 8 .58? Did they interpret it the way Bashir did? No, they picked up stones to stone Jesus. They knew what he meant. And in fact, remember folks, last time Jesus used I am was in the Garden of Gethsemane, when the people come to arrest him, and Jesus says, I am.

What happens to the soldiers? They fall back upon the ground. Why do you think that happened? Because Jesus was saying, oh, it's really me. No, it was the divine name that he was using. Finally, in John chapter 20, verse 28, Bashir said, he could not have said that because it would be blasphemous, unless the entire message of the Gospel of John from John 1 .1 to the end happens to be true, that Jesus is the eternal law, God's made flesh, then it wouldn't be blasphemous.

That's the whole point. Thomas, you cannot interpret John 20 .28 the way Bashir did it. It violates every rule of Greek grammar. And if you want to ask me about the Greek grammar, I'll be glad to explain it to you.

I've taught Greek for many years. The text specifically says, apokrythe tomas kai aipen auto. Thomas answered and said, to him, dative singular, these words are addressed to Jesus, hakodiasmu kai kathiasmu, my kurios, the very word used for Yahweh throughout the Old Testament in the Greek translation, and my God.

There is no way around the fact that Thomas addressed these words to Jesus, and Jesus's response to being called kurios and theos was, have you believed because you've seen me, Thomas? Bless are those who did not see and yet believed.

My friends, do you want a blessing from Jesus today, who you believe to be a prophet? Jesus said, you'll be blessed when you believe he's your Lord and your God, even though you have not seen him. That's the promise of the Injil that was sent down many, many years ago.

Thank you for your attention.

That was very fast, so we'll have another quick five minutes from Bashir.

Jesus as Prophet, Messiah, and Not God Almighty

Thank you. First, let's start off with Thomas. You know, Thomas cannot contradict Jesus in all good conscience. Jesus himself said, you have but one God in heaven and one master, the Christ. Furthermore, if you look at the conclusion of the Gospel according to John, chapter 20, look at the conclusion.

He says, I have written this book to prove that Jesus is the Messiah, not that Jesus is God Almighty. Further, you know, after the so-called resurrection of Jesus, peace be upon him, Jesus meets some of his disciples on the road to Amos.

And for some odd reason, they can't recognize him. And he asked them, well, what's happening? And they said, haven't you heard? This is now the disciples of Jesus talking. Haven't you heard? They have crucified Christ Jesus.

He's a great prophet, and they've crucified him. They didn't say, haven't you heard, they've crucified God Almighty, or words to that effect. So, at no stage can we say that the disciples actually believed that Jesus Christ was God Almighty.

As for the Jews wanting to stone Jesus, you know, they understood that Jesus was blaspheming, so they wanted to stone him. But, what's new? Matthew, chapter 23, verse 37, Jesus himself says, O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stone those who are sent to you.

How often did I not want to gather you as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, but you would not. So, the Jews were doing that all the time. And we are told in Mark 14, verse 55, that the council sought to condemn Jesus by bringing in many witnesses.

But the witnesses could not tell him. In other words, they wanted to prove that Jesus was blaspheming, but, you know, in Jewish law, all you need is two witnesses. They couldn't get two witnesses to testify that Jesus somehow was blaspheming by calling himself God.

We look at the person of Jesus. In Colossians, we are told, and now we're talking about the hypostatic union, that for all the fullness of deity dwelt in Jesus in bodily form. Now, what does that mean?

Well, Jesus is God. And then Philippians, we are told, no, no, hold on. Jesus underwent kenosis. He emptied himself from his divinity. So, is he God or isn't he? If he emptied himself, then he is human, and no problem, he's a prophet, and why have this debate?

If he is God, if all the fullness of deity was in him, then he is God, then God must have died. And James says he doesn't know. What does death mean? Well, I think we all know, we all understand that death means the absence of life in this world.

The absence of physical life in this world. So, when Jesus dies on the cross, what happens to his human soul? I mean, is it simply out there in the cosmos? Does it disintegrate? Does it join the Trinity and become, you know, now it's no longer the Trinity, because now we've got the Father, Son, Holy Spirit, plus the human soul of Jesus, so now there are four.

What happens to it? Simply saying, well, we don't understand it, isn't good enough. Because, you know, a mystery is something that is above reason. It is not something that is against reason. As regards John 1 .1, the word there beginning is archaic.

You know, and Jesus uses the same phrase for Satan. You know, he tells the Jews, you know, you are like your father the devil. And from the beginning, you know, he was a murderer. The word for eternal, eternity, as I understand it in Greek, is aion.

First Timothy, that God is forever and ever, and this is not what is being said, you know, in John 1 .1. I'm sure my brother here is an expert in linguistics, and just like Arabic scholars were experts, they tend to use language, you know, the finer points of the law.

Sorry, you know, I think we simply need to take it as it stands. In the beginning was the word, the word had a beginning. Simple as that. You know, we are told in the Bible, Jesus was subject to the Father.

What does that mean, he was subject to the Father? Does it mean on earth, or does it mean in eternity? You see, and there are many other verses like that. So we cannot have it both ways. We cannot have Jesus as man and prophet, as well as God Almighty.

It's just unreasonable. It's not logical. Thank you so much.

Questions and Answers on the Sonship of Christ, the Shema, and the Incarnation

Well, thank you, gentlemen. Folks, we now move into a 30-minute session where we're going to allow people to ask questions. We're going to ask you to form two queues, one directing questions to the Christian speaker, Dr. James White, and another queue maybe in the center or on this side directing questions to the Muslim speaker, Mr. Bashir Wania.

I just want to remind you that the maximum amount of time you can take to ask a question is one minute, but surely it doesn't have to take one minute. Be mindful that there might be other people that want to ask questions, and it's only one question per person.

So please don't ask me or ask the speaker, I just want to ask something else. That will not be allowed. And then, if you're asking the Christian speaker a question, he has two minutes to reply. Then the Muslim speaker has a minute to rebut that, and vice versa.

If you're asking Bashir a question, he has two minutes to answer, and Dr. James White has a minute to rebut. I'm going to invite the first question to be directed to Dr. James White. If you could please come to the middle here.

Dr. White, thank you very much for your presence, and your talk was very interesting. The question I have is, are there any Christians, or maybe even people that you do not regard as Christians, but they regard themselves as Christians, who believe that Jesus is not the Son of God?

Well, of course, there are people who will claim anything. It's like saying, are there people who claim to be Muslims who don't believe the Quran is eternal, or don't believe Muhammad is a prophet, Sven Kalish in Germany, a Muslim who does not believe Muhammad existed, etc.

The question is, what does the scripture reveal, and how does that define Christianity? I do not believe that anyone is a Christian who denies that Jesus is the Son of God, or that denies the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

These are just basic elements of the apostolic faith. To deny that means you're not a Christian. Jehovah's Witnesses teach that Jesus is Michael the Archangel. There's a whole movement called the Oneness Pentecostal Movement, that identifies the Father, the Son, and the Spirit as one person.

I debate all of these folks, but the question again is, does Christianity have the right of self-identification? I think you can make a very, very strong case that when you go to the original documents themselves, the most primitive—in fact, this could be a debate later on, I think, next week— the most primitive documents, the Gospel of Mark, the earliest traditions found in Paul, all contain the fact that Jesus is divine.

This is part and parcel of the proclamation of the early church. Are there people who claim to be Christian who will deny every single element of Christian belief?

Of course.

Are there people who claim to be Muslim who will deny definitional elements of Muslim belief?

Of course.

Every religion has that. The question is, can we know what actually defines a faith? I believe that very clearly we can.

Bajeev, thank you for referring to the Shema. In the Torah it says, Yahweh Elohim echad Yahweh. Elohim is not singular. It's plural. Therefore, God says there, I am Yahweh, the gods, and I'm one Yahweh.

The Torah also says there's only one God, and my name is Yahweh. It's very specific that any other god that's been associated with Yahweh is blasphemy. Now, this was written up 2 ,000 years before Muhammad and 1 ,400 years before Muhammad.

Can you tell me, why do you believe that Allah should be associated with Yahweh? Allah never calls himself Yahweh. Isn't that blasphemy itself?

You know, when Jesus, peace be upon him, is on the cross, he cries out, That is very close to the word Allah, Allah. My God, my God, why has thou forsaken me? So, the word Allah and Elohim, Arabic and Hebrew are sister languages, and so is Aramaic.

As regards Elohim being in the plural, well, yes, but the point is that in Arabic and in Hebrew you have the plural of numbers, a plural of respect. The suffix im simply means something in the intensive form.

So, in the Hebrew Bible, the word for life, chaim, sometimes in the plural, you get the suffix im in there. Moses, peace be upon him, Exodus chapter 7 verse 1, God tells him, See, I make you as Elohim unto Pharaoh, and Aaron will be your prophet.

Moses was alone, yet God refers to him as Elohim. Moses wasn't in the dual, there weren't two Moses or three. So, in the Hebrew and in the Arabic, one gets a plural of respect and a plural of numbers.

When they refer to God, it has always been a plural of respect. As you Christians accept that the Jews are the chosen people, the Jews have always regarded God as one and indivisible, that is in the Old Testament.

And I find it ironic that while Christians quote the Old Testament, they do so in total opposite to the way the Jews, who have studied the scriptures for thousands of years,.

Two minutes.

Thank you.

You've got a minute, Dr. Wayne.

Thank you very much. I do not believe that the plural Elohim is indicative of anything at that point. Personally, when it's used as a singular noun, it's simply translated as the word God. And I would agree with that point.

However, the problem is all the New Testament writers identified Jesus as Yahweh. For example, in Isaiah 45, 23, Yahweh says, To me every knee will bow. Paul then quotes the early church, which applied those very same words to Jesus.

The point is that the name Yahweh is applied to the Father, to the Son, and to the Spirit in the New Testament. And to make Jewish rejection of that the norm for the reading of the Old Testament, would mean you'd also have to reject that Jesus is Messiah, because they reject the prophetic testimony of the Old Testament to Jesus being the Messiah.

But you accept, because the Koran says so, that Jesus is the Messiah. So if you use the standard that was just given, you'd have to reject what the Koran says. The reality is we are interpreting the Old Testament appropriately, because we're interpreting it in its own context, not just in the view of later Jewish interpretation.

Thank you. Okay, can we have a question that's now directed to Dr. James White?

Good evening, Dr. James White. Genesis 1, verse 26 says, Let us create man in our image. I was a Jew for 29 years, and in 1989, when Christ knocked on the door of my heart, the first scriptures that I went to was Genesis 1, verse 26 -27, and conformed to that image.

After listening to you tonight, and having lived the life with Christ, which I could never have lived without Him, I don't know how I lived without Him for the first 29, to conform to that image in Genesis 1, verse 27 -28, Christ, is He not the exact image of God when He said, If you've seen me, you've seen the Father.

If you want to see most merciful and most gracious on every chapter of the surah, to me, I've studied the Koran for 23 years, is not Jesus showing that He's the image of God in grace, in mercy, in holiness, in righteousness?

And that's not who God is. Okay.

I'm not exactly sure what the question is, but certainly Hebrews chapter 1 does describe Jesus as the express image of the Father. It ascribes to Him the ability to reveal to us who God is. In fact, John 1 .18 says, No one has seen God at any time.

The monogamous theos, the unique God, He has exegeted Him or made Him known. So in other words, it has been the will of the Father and the Son and the Spirit that the way that we have the most intimate knowledge of God is through the person of Jesus Christ.

And that is why, for example, when Abraham walked by the Oaks of Mamre and Jehovah appeared to him along with the two angels and they ate together and they walked together, it's fascinating that in Genesis 18 and 19, if you follow the story, Jehovah rained fire and brimstone on Sodom and Gomorrah from Jehovah in heaven.

You have a Jehovah on earth who's walking with Abraham and you have Jehovah in heaven who's the source of the fire and brimstone. So it is the consistent testimony when you look at the Old and New Testaments together, which Muslims believe, the Torah and the Injil were Natzal, they were sent down, they contain guidance, Surah 33.

When you look at them in harmony, then it becomes very, very clear that the one that has been seen, even John says in John 12, that the one that Isaiah saw sitting upon his throne in Isaiah 6 was Jesus.

He makes that very, very clear in John 12. So what do we know about Yahweh? We know because he has revealed himself in the person of Jesus Christ. And so that image is very much how we know him and that stamp that is used in Hebrews chapter 1 very much.

See, no mere creature could be the image of the eternal God. He would have to be eternal himself. That's why you have to reject those verses from the Bible.

Thank you. Firstly, the Jews rejected Jesus as the Messiah. But so what? I mean, they regarded him as a false prophet. God was fundamental to their religion. So to say that they didn't know the difference between God being one and indivisible and the trinity is absurd.

Secondly, Jesus himself never calls himself God anywhere in the scriptures. Thirdly, you know, the brother here quoted, if you have seen me, you have seen the Father. Now nobody calls Jesus the Father.

And Jesus himself in John 5 .37 says, you have never seen God, the face of God, nor have you heard the voice of God. So people saw Jesus. It is ridiculous to say that when Jesus says, if you have seen me, you have seen the Father, that he meant that he was God.

No, he simply means that he vibrates on the same spiritual frequency as God as does any other prophet. Thank you so much. Thank you.

The Creator, the Attributes of Allah, and Whether God Can Become Man

We now have a question directed to Bashir. Please come to the front. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Vania, question for you. Your statement during your speech that God should always remain in conformity to his attributes. As we stand here discussing whether God can become man, would you please explain one of the attributes of Allah, which is Al-Bari, which means the creator who has the power to turn all entities or all things of existence.

Thank you.

God Almighty has many attributes in the Quran. And as I've explained, that the attributes of God are in essence a part of God. Unlike humanity, our attributes are not part of our essence. In other words, we are made in the spiritual image of God.

That is the essence. However, we can acquire new attributes. Because we are men, we can become evil, we can become good, we can become mischievous. When we talk about God Almighty, we don't talk along those lines.

We don't say God is good, or God is pure light, but God can become the devil. No. We understand that the essence of God is purity. And I'm not saying this. Job, in the book of Job, Job himself says that, how can man be clean, who is born of a woman?

And behold, even the moon and the stars are not bright in the sight of God. And the word there in the Hebrew is zakah. Same word used in the Arabic, yuzaki, for purity. How can you say that any human being can be as pure as God Almighty, when the moon and the sun and the stars are not as pure as God Almighty?

So when God Almighty says that He is the Creator, it doesn't mean that He can create another God just like Himself. No. It simply means that God Almighty, as the Quran says, creates as He intends. But He cannot intend against His own attributes.

Otherwise, how can I trust God? I mean, I trust,.

I do things,.

Because I trust that, at the end of the day, there will either be heaven or hell. If I believe that God's attributes are not a part of His essence, then why give God any attributes? Simply say, well, God can do anything and everything.

Thank you.

Well, I think the purpose of the question was to get back to the central question that I asked. And in my opening statement I asked, does God, as Creator, have the power, the ability, the capacity to join a human nature to Himself if He pleases to do so?

I guess the answer that Bashir is giving to that is that any human nature is going to be, by nature, imperfect. To which I say, God can create a perfect human nature. Adam was perfect as he was made. He was not impure until he fell.

And so, what is the fundamental reason why it is that God cannot join? He just said, God will only act according to His attributes. Well, one of His attributes is absolute love. And that love is what promulgated the Incarnation.

It is that condescension that He shows. So, if it is God's purpose to enter into His own creation in the person of His Son to bring about perfect redemption for His people, what is it about God, why does He have that incapacity?

Why is there an incapacity on your part that we are saying He does have the power to do that?

Faith, Scripture, and the Islamic Remedy for Sin

Okay, thank you. Okay, thank you. Please go ahead.

Good evening, gentlemen. I'd like to greet you with an Islamic greeting. Assalamu alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh. Which was also used by Jesus, peace and blessing be upon Him. Mr. White, my question is directed to you.

As a Muslim, I sometimes, time to time, read the Bible. And it is clear that you get beautiful scriptures within the Bible which does not need interpretation or, how can I say, whereby you have to translate it.

The scripture is clear in its context. By the message of Jesus Christ, when you read in the New Testament, Jesus said, I, by the finger of God, cast out demons. I, by the hand of God, healed the sick people.

He says, my Father is greater than all. Which comes to mind that Jesus is always giving glory to God, so to speak. My question is, in the Old Testament, God Himself, under the bannership of Moses, He says...

You're going beyond one minute.

This is my question. He says, God is saying, I am not a man that I should lie, neither am I the son of man that I should change my mind. So my question is, when did God change His mind to become a man?

You're the only one that I'm allowing to go over one minute. Please stay in the time frame.

Okay.

Thank you.

Another one of the many verses that I quote to my Mormon friends all the time, and that is, God is not a man that He should lie, nor the son of man He should repent. God did not lie. In fact, Jesus Christ said, He is the way, the truth, and the life.

There is no lying. There is no changing of His mind that He should become a man. It was always His intention and purpose. The prophetic word said that that was going to happen. That's what Isaiah says.

That's what Psalm 2 says. That's what Psalm 22 says. It's all through the prophetic word. It's not a matter of our saying that the being of God is limited to a man. We're not making that statement. I know that's what you've heard.

In fact, the text you quoted, you seemingly quoted John 14, 28. The Father is greater than I am. You said the Father is greater than all of us. The Father is greater than I am. Have you read the rest of the verse?

He was saying to His disciples, I'm going back to the presence of the Father. If you had loved Me, you would rejoice because the Father is greater than I am. He then goes on to say that before the world was, He shared the glory of the Father before creation.

That's not a mirazul. You've got to listen to all it says. My friend, I've written a book on whatever a Christian needs to know about the Quran. And I would ask any Muslim in this room, please read the book and ask yourself a question.

Did this man seek to understand the Quran in its context? I did. But my friends, what I don't see is my Muslim friends seeking to understand my New Testament in its context. And I'm simply begging you, in light of what your own book says about the Torah and the Injil, that it was natsal, it was sent down by Allah, that it contains light and guidance, take the time to actually read all of what it says.

Because those verses you quoted, we believe them. We believe that Jesus became man. He was subject to the Father. But what do you expect Him to be, an atheist? He's going to continue to pray? He's been in fellowship with the Father for all of eternity.

Listen to all the New Testament says just as we try to be fair. In dealing with the Quran as well.

You see this idea of listening to all of the New Testament. You know, every verse must mean something. Otherwise it can be dispensed with. So, simply saying you have to take it all doesn't really make sense.

Adam, yes, was perfect. Do Christians regard Adam as God? No. Then why do you regard, even if Jesus had a perfect nature, let us assume, why should Jesus then be God? As for Jesus saying, I am the way, the truth and the life.

Well, John chapter 8 verse 40, Jesus says, Why are you trying to kill me, a man who has told you the truth which I have heard from God? If he is the truth, why should he hear the truth from God? Of course I accept that Jesus is the way, the truth and the life.

Jesus is the way. He will show you the way to God. He speaks the truth. And of course, He will lead you to eternal life. I don't have a problem with that. As for this whole idea of human nature, the question is, if God has the power to attach human nature to God, doesn't it change fundamentally the nature of God?

Just a minute. Now we will have a question directed to Bashir.

Bashir, thank you for allowing me to speak. The Bible has a saying, or a text that says, It is impossible to please God without faith. Now, the Bible says, in Timothy as well, that all scripture is God-breeded.

Now my question is, if some texts are polluted, why would you use some texts as evidence to prove something? You know, you would use a text to say, I believe this text, but the other texts you wouldn't believe.

The Bible says that all scripture, now if you don't believe all the scripture, what the question I am posing to you this evening is, what is the Islamic remedy to sin, looking at the Jewish economy? From the Old Testament right through to Revelation, that's the point the Bible was written to tell man how God will rescue them from their sins.

And if you take Jesus out of the equation, that's when we pick up a problem where we start without faith. So if you could explain briefly to me, how do we remedy sin according to the Muslim God for heaven?

That's a minute.

Look, I think I've had about four debates on the subject with I think some of the best scholars in the world. So I would encourage you to punch in on the internet, Bashir Vaniat debating salvation and it will all come up.

So I hope that answers your question. I can't do it in two minutes. The other question I think, why is it that we perhaps we can choose some text? Well look, generally, I would accept the words of Jesus as on par with the Hadith.

You see, in other words, Jesus himself did not walk around on this planet.