October 1, 2015 Show with David Campbell on “Handle That New Call with Care: Accepting or Declining a Call to a New Congregation” AND Dr. Dennis Swanson to discuss “5 Mistakes Churches Make Looking For a Pastor & 5 Mistakes Pastors Make Looking For a Church”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors,

Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

Now here's our host Chris Arntzen. Good afternoon

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania and the rest of humanity living on the planet earth who are listening via live streaming.

This is Chris Arntzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron, wishing you all a happy Thursday on this first day of October 2015 and I'm very excited about today's program because my own pastor currently at Grace Baptist Church in Carlisle, Pennsylvania, David Campbell is my guest today for the first hour and he is going to be discussing handle that new call with care, accepting or declining a call to a new congregation and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you to Iron Sharpens Iron, Pastor David Campbell.

Thank you Chris, good to be here. Yeah and it's a pleasure to have you in the studio. We actually tried to do this same interview once before but due to technical problems the only people that heard the interview were me and Pastor Campbell so I'm very happy that he is able to come back and God willing have this interview heard by everyone on the airwaves.

Tell us something about Grace Baptist Church in Carlisle, Pennsylvania. Grace Baptist Church in Carlisle, Pennsylvania dates from the very early 1950s,

I think 1951, so we're about just over 60 years old. The original charter members came out of other churches in the town.

They were eager to have a distinctively evangelical ministry. Ernie Riesinger, known to many of the listeners,

I'm sure very much at the heart of that, wasn't reformed in its thinking and theology.

At the outset that was something that came over the coming years and then

Walter Chantry with whom Grace Baptist is associated in so many minds started his ministry here in 1963 and ministered then for 39 years.

Wow and he was a guest not long ago on Iron Trap and Zion. So I believe, yeah, he was here till 2002 and then there's a two -month gap and I came.

Well I'm sure that the folks at Grace Baptist Church are very delighted that the Lord brought you there. And you are a

Grace Baptist Church of Carlisle, Pennsylvania is a reformed

Baptist Church. Can you just give us a summary of what that actually means? I think probably the simplest way to do that,

Chris, is to say that the document that sums up, that gives expression to our foundational convictions is the 1689

London Baptist Confession of Faith, which is a slightly edited version of the

Westminster Confession. So we are committed to the fundamental doctrines of the

Reformation of 17th century Puritanism. And wouldn't you say that the hymn,

Jesus paid it all, all to him I owe, sin has left its crimson stain, he washed it white as snow.

Wouldn't you say that's a great, very succinct summary of what the doctrines of Grace are?

Yes and the Prophet Jonah, of whom

I've been thinking recently, summed it up even better. And he said in his book and in his prayer, salvation is of the

Lord. And that really sums it up. It is God who planned it, God who brings us to the experience of it,

God who accomplished it through the cross, and God who will bring it to a glorious climax.

With certainty. With certainty when our Lord Jesus Christ returns at the end of the age. And even though many other

Christians who are not theologically reformed may sing that hymn, and may say with their lips that they owe all to God for their salvation, they're really not being consistent, are they?

If they are not theologically reformed. Isn't reformed theology the theology that best explains and teaches the fact that we owe 100 % of our salvation to God?

Yes, it does. The one thing I would say, Chris, I've got a soft spot for old -fashioned

Wesleyan Methodism. And I have often been struck, as I've read little biography after little biography of some of these great

Wesleyan saints, how often they will speak of being enabled to believe in the

Lord Jesus Christ. And it has often been said that we're all Calvinists in our knees. That's right.

Because we are coming and we're recognizing the sovereignty of God and we're pleading with him to be gracious to those who are on our hearts.

And Charles Adams Spurgeon had a big place in his heart for Wesleyans and John Wesley, a figure from history to even him.

And he apparently, from my last interview with Phil Johnson, the executive director of John MacArthur's ministry, he said that the

Wesleyans rallied to his side during the downgrade controversy. Yes, I'm sure they did.

Well, it's a pleasure to be here. And by the way, tell us something about an abbreviated version of your own testimony of salvation.

I know that you're from Scotland. Tell us exactly where and how you came to Christ and also how you believe you were called into the ministry, since that is the subject of our book in many respects.

Yes, thank you. I was brought up in a Christian home.

It's a great privilege to know the gospel from my earliest days.

I remember at the age of four, my older sister praying with me and I had a very childlike understanding of the gospel and of sin.

But I do remember praying that the Lord would come into my heart when I was four years of age.

And though for the next 14 years, particularly my teenage years, things were pretty much up and down.

It may very well be that the Lord did save me at the age of four. The vine seed was planted there, which has never been rooted out.

My life really did change when I was 18. I had an experience that certainly, if it didn't mark the beginning of new life, restored it and gave to it quality and consistency and joy

I had never known before. And it was really then I was a member of our local

Baptist church. I was involved in the leadership of the young people and so on and went off to university.

I remember discussing with a fine Christian friend what we thought

God would have us to do in days to come.

I remember saying to him and saying with all sincerity that whatever it would not be preaching

God to us. And then I was asked to lead a Bible study in one of the halls of residence.

And I felt so helped in the leading of that Bible study and felt such an ease, such a help that it knocked it on the head there and then.

And I began to think, well, perhaps that is something that the Lord might call me to do.

I was in some straight, I think it was probably midway through my university course.

I wanted to witness, I was witnessing, but I realized how shallow my own understanding of the gospel was.

And I could hardly even articulate the questions, let alone know what the answers were.

And I remember praying that the Lord would give to me an understanding of salvation to a far greater degree than I had.

And that summer, this was the summer of 1982. I was 21 years old. I was working as I had done before in previous years in a factory bakery in my hometown of Ayr.

For some extraordinary reason, I was permitted to have no less than two and a half hours off, an eight and a half hour shift in different breaks.

And so I had a lot of time in my hand and I wondered what I should do.

And I decided that I would read some Christian biographies. Someone had given me a biography to read on my 21st birthday.

It was the first introduction to the whole realm of Christian biography and I was gripped by it.

So I went out to my local Church of Scotland bookshop and started buying and reading biographies.

Now you need to understand, I didn't know who these guys were. Some of them I knew their names, but I knew, to my shame,

I knew almost nothing about any of them. But in God's providence, over the course of the summer,

I read biographies of Robert Murray McShane, George Whitfield, John Calvin, C .H.

Spurgeon, and one other whose name I've just forgotten.

But they were all, of course, men of reform convictions.

CB. So you were previously to reading these books or at the time that you bought these books, you were still from an

Arminian Plymouth Brethren background? I was brought up in Christian Brethren.

There would have been men of Calvinistic convictions in the Brethren, but we never used labels.

Probably it was predominantly Arminian, but I knew nothing about Calvinism.

But reading these books introduced me to the distinctives of Calvinism.

They answered questions that I had, as I said, scarcely been able to articulate.

I really did not have any great struggle embracing them, quite the opposite for the most part.

But it did something else. Because I was reading it in the context of biography and in the context of vibrant gospel ministries,

I was seeing what the gospel had done and how

God had used men in the preaching of the gospel. And it not only introduced me to a whole realm of thinking of theology to which

I had been a stranger, it lit a fire in my heart to preach the gospel myself.

And I would date my call to gospel ministry, certainly the implanting of a strong desire to do gospel ministry to that summer of 1982,

I was 21 years old. And I then went back to Glasgow University for one final year.

I began to look for jobs, but as time went on, before I even began to get anything really into that, there was one thing that began to dominate until it eclipsed everything else.

And that was the desire to go and study for the work of the gospel ministry.

I thought, well, maybe years to come, let me do some work first. But it became the all -consuming desire.

And I applied to the Free Church of Scotland College in Edinburgh, which is a

Presbyterian denominational school. Free Church of Scotland is a direct lineal descendant of the

Scottish Reformed Church of the 16th century. I firmly committed to the

Westminster Confession of Faith, at that time, exclusively psalm singing. And acapella, correct?

Acapella, yes. And it was a place where I was going to be taught Reformed theology as the truth.

And I was going to be able to sit under distinguished men like Donald MacLeod and Douglas Macmillan.

I applied. They have always had a policy of welcoming private students. I, of course, was by that time a

Baptist, but this was a Presbyterian school. But they very warmly welcomed me.

And I went there for four years. And it was not only a great academic experience, it was a great spiritual experience as well, not only the instruction, but actually being involved in the whole life of the

Free Church, preaching as Pope, as student pastor. And my friend David Murray of the

Puritan Reformed Theological Seminary, who I've interviewed a number of times, said you went to seminary with his father.

Yes, Alan Murray was, I think, in his first, he was a much older man than me.

He had been a dentist, I believe. So, he came in as a mature student. He was in his final year when

I was, sorry, he was in his first year when I was in my final year. So, I think we overlapped for a year.

So, I got to know Alan as a son I didn't know. And how did you come to Baptist convictions?

Well, I grew up with Baptist convictions. That's right, from the Plymouth Brethren. And I struggled during the time at the

Free Church College. I've struggled because I wanted to believe in infant baptism.

I wanted to be a minister of the Free Church of Scotland, but I could not come to terms either with the position of exclusive samadhi for worship or infant baptism.

But it has given me a profound respect for these men. I love them.

I wish that I could have embraced infant baptism, but I was simply unable to do so.

And so, I came out at 26 years old after four years in the Free Church College, a very reluctant

Baptist. But a Baptist I was, and a

Baptist I have remained the past 28 years. So, what my

Presbyterian friends tell me is not true, that as long as you read the right books, you will become a Presbyterian.

Of course, I'm exaggerating and kidding, partly. So, what exactly is it like, and if you could give a definition of what it's like to receive a call to the pastorate from God?

Because obviously, I know that you're not a charismatic or a Pentecostal. How is something like that laid on your heart divinely, where you are certain this is from God?

Well, I think it's a combination of things, Chris. When I think about the language of the

Apostle Paul, when he talked about someone desiring to do work of an overseer, there is often,

I suppose, almost always, there's a desire to begin with.

Now, in our Reformation history, there are two outstanding exceptions, both

John Knox and John Calvin. There had to be recourse to a little arm twisting before they were willing to engage in gospel ministry.

But I think in the case of most men, that there is a desire to do the work of preaching, teaching, this desire to shepherd a flock of people.

I think that there has to be, either on the part of your home church or, depending on whether you're a

Presbyterian or a trainee of the ministry committee, there has to be a recognition of fitness and encouragement, therefore, to go ahead and train.

That would be a second strand. And then, at the end of it all, you have to have a call from a local church.

And until that comes, then you, I think it would be perilous to say that you are called.

You may sense a call, but that really is the final confirmation that here is a church.

They've been looking for a pastor. They've been thinking. They've been praying. They've interviewed you. They've heard you.

They've assessed your gifts. They recognize the call of God in your life. They extend a call to you, and you sense that, yeah, that's a good fit.

I assume, and correct me if I'm wrong, if you are a member of a church before you're a pastor, that church could plant a church from the ground up with you.

Could they not? Could they not even start renting a building? And if they know that there's people in that area who are

Christians who have no local church that they can attach themselves to for either distance or theological reasons, or there's lost people in an area that have desired an interest in some way to visit a church, et cetera, is that an appropriate way to start a church?

Absolutely. I think we have got freedom in this. And if a congregation wished to plant a church in a particular area and recognized in one of their members a man who had, you know, a man of proven character, a man who exercises gifts, a man that obviously had a heart for the

Lord, heart for people, heart for the gospel, and the place of primary responsibility for the initial preaching and teaching in his hands, and yeah, absolutely.

Great. And I'm going to give our email address if you'd like to join us on the air with a question. Anything involving the pastorate or the pastoral call, but specifically on the book that we are going to be discussing by David Campbell, our guest today,

Handle That New Call with Care, Accepting or Declining a Call to a New Congregation.

Our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com. That's chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside of the

USA. Well, first of all, why did you feel compelled to write this book,

Pastor Campbell? Well, I went to my first charge, which was

Geneva Road Evangelical Baptist Church in Darlington, County Durham, England in 1987.

In fact, Sunday 20th of September 2015 was exactly 28 years to the day that I started in Geneva Road in England.

So it was quite a memorable Sunday for me. I was 26 years old, settled down, was there for 14 years to 2001.

And in the summer of 2001, I got a call, I got a phone call from a friend over here,

Jim Renahan, who's the Dean of the Institute of Reformed Baptist Studies in Escondido, California, a friend of many years standing.

He had been contacted by Grace Baptist Church. Walter Chantry was thinking about retiring.

The elders were beginning to look for possible replacement for him. They'd written letters to a number of different men asking for recommendations.

And one of the men who got a letter was my friend Jim Renahan. And he called me, this is the last day of July 2001, asking if I would be willing to be considered for the position.

I had been in Geneva Road for 14 years at that time. I certainly wasn't unhappy.

There was nothing that was pushing me out. But I did think for a number of reasons that it would be wise to at least consider.

And that started a process which lasted really a whole year. I was contacted, there was a series of interviews.

My wife and I and our two girls came over in February of 2002 for a 10 -day visit, preaching both weekends.

And the weekend between March of that year, I was given a call. And then

I spent the most agonizing month of my life from the

March to the April 2002 wrestling with this decision whether to stay where I was, whether I should go.

And I was shocked, Chris, that there were no books to help me.

I have got lots of books, most ministers have got lots of books on every dimension of the pastoral ministry, preaching, et cetera, et cetera.

And I couldn't even find a single chapter in one of those books that addressed the whole question of what do you do when you're given a call to a new congregation?

I was staggered because there can be few ministers who don't, in the course of their ministries, have to deal with this at some point or other.

Now, there is a book that I discovered later by a 19th century American Baptist called

Hezekiah Harvey called The Pastor. And it's got a superb chapter in there.

I did have access to it in a somewhat modified form, and that was helpful, but nothing of any great length.

The thing that I found most helpful, apart from the scriptures, the scriptures gave me good principle, obviously, the foundational principles.

But the most important source in terms of men actually thinking this through was

Christian biography, ministerial biography. And the love that I had for biography starting at 21 never left me, and I've always enjoyed reading biography.

And I found dipping into the biographies of men who had been just where I was, having to wrestle with the situation.

Okay. Yeah, we had a little technical issue here. Sorry about that. That's okay. Having to wrestle with the situation, struggling to know what to do as I was struggling to know what to do, and reading their stories, hearing about their struggles, thinking about the principles that they employ, the scriptures that they used, that was a tremendous help to me.

And I thought to myself at the time, I would like someday to do an address on this.

Maybe if I get invited to speak at a conference or a minister's fraternal, I would do something like this and would illustrate it from Christian biography, from ministerial biography.

Well, of course, nothing happened for several years. I forgot all about it to all intents and purposes.

It was just one of those things that maybe one day I'll get around to doing. But I was approached by Day One.

They were launching this new series of books called the series subject is

Ministering the Master's Way. And I was asked to contribute.

And I suggested, well, why not do something on this very subject of a new call?

I wanted to have the title as Staying Put or Moving On.

But because of the way the wording of all the other titles, I had to come up with something different.

Hence the title, Handle That New Call with Care. Subtitle, Accepting or Declining a

Call to a New Congregation. So that really forced my hand, sent me back to my biographies.

And eventually out of that came this book, which

Day One very kindly published. It's been out for a number of years now. And I just want to read a commendation written by Dr.

Ian D. Campbell of the Free Church of Scotland, Isle of Lewis in the United Kingdom. David Campbell has dealt with a theme that is among the most important in any minister's life.

He has written a book which will be of immense value in helping ministers recognize God's leading in their lives.

And I know that you can get this book from one of our sponsors, the Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service.

Their website is CV for Cumberland Valley, BB for Bible Book, S for Service .com,

CVBBS .com. And you can also go to the website of Grace Baptist Church of Carlisle, Pennsylvania, and ask them more about it.

Gracebaptistcarlisle .org, gracebaptistcarlisle, which is C -A -R -L -I -S -L -E dot

O -R -G. And the phone number of Grace Baptist Church of Carlisle is 717 -249 -4912.

717 -249 -4912. We're going to be going to a break right now. If you have questions for Pastor David Campbell on his book,

Handle That New Call with Care, Accepting or Declining a Call to a New Congregation.

If you know any pastors, if you have a pastor, I hope you do have a pastor, give him a call.

Tell him to listen to the program at IronSharpensIronRadio .com. IronSharpensIronRadio .com.

And have him email us a question at ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. ChrisArnzen at gmail .com.

And please give us your first name, give us your city and state of residence, and your country of residence, if you live outside of the

USA. Please only remain anonymous if this is a personal and private question that you're asking.

And we hope to hear from you after these messages. Don't go away. We'll be right back with Pastor David Campbell of Grace Baptist Church in Carlisle, Pennsylvania.

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That's lindbrookbaptist .org. Welcome back. This is Chris Armsden. If you've just tuned us in, our guest today is

David Campbell. He is the pastor of Grace Baptist Church in Carlisle, Pennsylvania, and we are discussing his book,

Handle That New Call With Care, Accepting or Declining a Call to a New Congregation.

Our email address, if you have a question on that subject, is chrisarmsden at gmail .com. C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

We do have an email from Arlington, Texas, from a listener. But before we go to that,

I just have to announce that our friend Pastor Bruce Bennett and the Word of Truth Church in Farmingville, New York, invite you to join them at their sixth annual

Bible conference on October 2nd and 3rd. This year's topic will be eschatology, a biblical examination of the four major end -time views.

They are pleased to have Pastors Chris Pandolfi, Pastor Dave Corson, Pastor Mark Grimaldi, and Pastor Rich Jensen presenting one of the four views each.

The conference will have five sessions. Session one will be on Friday, October 2nd, that's this Friday, at 7 p .m.,

as Pastor Chris Pandolfi defends premillennial dispensationalism. Session two will be at 10 a .m.

on Saturday, as Pastor Dave Corson defends historic premillennialism. Session three will be at 1115 a .m.,

as Pastor Mark Grimaldi defends amillennialism. Lunch will be served after session three.

And session four will begin at 130 p .m., as Pastor Rich Jensen defends postmillennialism.

Dinner will be served at 545, and session five will start at 7 p .m.,

by Anthony Uvinio hosting a roundtable discussion with all four pastors and audience questions being fielded during the roundtable discussion.

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And we want to thank the Word of Truth Church in Farmingville, Long Island, New York, for being a sponsor of Iron Sharpens Iron.

Pastor David, we do have a question for you from Ken in Arlington, Texas.

He says, while there are certainly practical reasons for a church to call a pastor, and a pastor to accept a call, how do you balance that with the call of God?

Have there ever been situations you're aware of where what looked like a bad fit practically was a good fit providentially?

Yeah, well, I think, for example, of Thomas Boston, who, at the time he was considering going to Ettrick, which was his second charge, said something to the effect that his health was so broken down that he looked and felt as if it was more likely he was going to be translated to heaven than to the parish of Ettrick.

But in God's providence, his health was renewed and he had sufficient strength to exercise a wonderful ministry.

I would say, yes, God does take men who may seem unlikely candidates for a position, but he speaks peace to their heart.

He speaks peace to the hearts of the congregation. There's a sense of the God. That, of course, is a whole other subject, and it works.

Perhaps from a human point of view, initially, it might have seemed as if it was not going to work, but in God's providence, it was clear that the guidance had been correctly understood.

What would you view are the main reasons that a pastor, or a pastor -to -be, should be reluctant to accept a call, or should absolutely refuse the call?

Well, reluctance, refusal, Chris, can be for a number of reasons. We go back to the issue of health.

A man may come to the conclusion that this charge is going to put such pressure on him health -wise and demands upon his time and strength that had he been 20 years younger, great.

Like a church with a lot of problems that are already there, you mean? Yes, or maybe the size of the church, any kind of factors like that.

His family, I think, family considerations are very important, and he may, thinking about his wife, thinking about his children, where they are spiritually and academically, he may come to the conclusion that it's just not a good time to leave.

He needs to think very seriously about what kind of restrictions are going to be placed on him in terms of what he's free to preach, and to make sure that the things that he believes he's going to have liberty to preach.

And that is obviously a big question if you are a confessional Calvinist and you're going into an evangelical church, which is a fine 13, 14 -point evangelical statement of doctrine, but which is silent on issues like election, final perseverance, irresistible grace, that the whole,

I mean, you were talking about your advertisement about this conference to talk about the millennial.

There's a hot potato if there ever was one. What are your views on the last days and the last times?

If you are a convinced amillennialist, then probably it should give you pause before accepting a call to a congregation of premillennial dispensationalists.

All those kinds of things can be red lights that say, at least you need to stop and think very carefully before you go forward.

And what would be the reasons to be reluctant or refuse to leave where you already are, primary ones?

Well, again, there can be a number of those two. Many a man will be very reluctant to leave because who's going to take his place?

Now, if it's a larger congregation where there's more than one full -time pastor and he's got a colleague who's going to be able to bear the burden of preaching and teaching, that makes it much easier.

When my predecessor, Walter Chantry, retired, I said there's a two -month gap.

There was also a very experienced man, Craig Harris, who was here as an assistant pastor that made it much easier for the transition.

But if there's no then that gives a man pause. He may only have been there for a short time and for that reason may feel

I really need to give more time to this, especially if, for example, the congregation had had to wait for a pastor for several years or had had some very difficult experiences.

You've come as a settled ministry, things are going well, you've only been there four or five years, it's maybe not the best time to think about going.

Problems, yes, problems can be a reason for leaving. You've tried your best, they're intractable, you just can't make progress, it's wearing you out.

It may be that in that situation it's time to go. Alternatively, the problems may be the very reason why you need to stay.

I think of Paul saying to Titus, why did Paul leave Titus in Crete?

Because there were a number of things they had to get sorted out. There were false teachers they needed to challenge, there were elders he needed to appoint, there were things that needed to be taught to various groups within the church.

Similarly, a man may receive a call, but as he looks at it, there are things that need to get done and he really can't in good conscience leave until some of these things are at least on address.

So, those kind of things, Chris. And now for the reverse, give us some of the primary reasons why somebody should leave where they are and receive a call.

Obviously, there's going to be varieties of answers because sometimes it's absolutely necessary for some reason or another, and sometimes it's just a matter of a conviction that the pastor being called comes to.

Yes, well, as you say, there's a whole variety of reasons. He may feel that it's good for the congregation, he's maybe been there 10, 15, 20 years, it's time for a fresh voice.

He himself, I like to think of my predecessor,

Walter Tantry, as a long -distance runner. I think other men are middle -distance runners, but when they've been in a situation for 10, 15 years, they need a break and to begin again somewhere where they can be fresh and with renewed vision and energy.

Sometimes a health situation really makes a change necessary. That's something that's well -documented.

Intractable problems, I mentioned those changing the situation doctrinally in a congregation where now you no longer have the freedom to preach and teach the

Word of God in the way that you did when you went. Or you may have changed. Or you may have changed and you can no longer in good conscience subscribe to the confession of faith.

Or as an honorable man, you're not going to directly preach against it.

So if it's a really big issue and you feel, I really need to have the liberty to preach this, and that's certainly the case where someone who has been of Arminian convictions comes to embrace

Calvinism and his church is just not sympathetic to it.

So what does he do? Well, he really has to move on. So, yes, all kinds of different reasons.

You know, the whole question of sowing and reaping. A man may have sown the good seed of the

Word of God. He may have seen very little in terms of conversion. What does

God do? Well, often it's someone else who reaps. So God moves a man on to another sphere, brings someone after him who reaps where he has sown.

It may be a more responsible position. I mean, here's a younger man who's obviously gifted, who's been faithful over a number of years in his first pastorate, and a wider sphere of service opens up for him.

And here's an opportunity for him to exercise his gifts in a wider sphere than would be the case.

And again, with the counsel of other men, you can see why that is the kind of situation that will often lead to the acceptance of a call to another congregation.

And as your chapter title reads, who is ultimately to decide?

Well, I think there's no question as to how that should be answered.

Ultimately, the Lord Jesus Christ, who is the head of the church, is the one who must decide.

It is he who gives pastors and teachers. A church that is looking for a pastor, what does it do?

It prays to the Lord Jesus, asking him. And a man must ask, am

I being called by the Lord Jesus to move to this? Just as they're asking the

Lord, is this the man for whom we have been praying? And obviously, we don't expect to hear voices from heaven, we don't expect to have visions.

But we do believe, well, I certainly believe that the Lord is very active in that situation, either saying to a man, no, you stay where you are, or moving on.

But yes, he is the head of the church. He's the one who fits men to situations.

It's his leading that we need to seek. And when we're persuaded of it, it is his leading that we need to follow.

Tell me what you speak about, or write about, I should say, in your book, in the chapter on decision time.

Decision time. A whole lot of things, actually, Chris.

One of the things is be sensitive. There are horror stories out there of the way in which men have accepted a call to another church, and it's only then that their congregation becomes wise to what's going on.

Love to your flock would suggest, of course, there's different ways in which it can be done, but love to your flock would indicate that when the decision has been made, or as it's being made, that there's a concern for their well -being.

But another part of it is, interestingly enough, having the courage to admit you were wrong and reverse your decision.

There's a story in here, I think it's actually from Dr. James Henley Thornwell, if my memory serves me right, some distinguished

American 19th century reformed theologian, who had to acknowledge that the decision he had made was wrong, and that it was necessary then for him to, it was either right, he was either

Thornwell himself or someone to whom he was writing, I can't remember quite which, but basically, if you make a decision, make it on the basis of the amount of light that you have, but you may come to the conclusion that actually, no, something else comes to light, it wasn't the best decision.

What do you do? Well, do you just forge ahead with it anyway? No, follow your convictions and say,

I've got to step down. Equally, you may decline a call and are so unsettled about it that you eventually have to say, if it's possible to reverse it,

I will accept it, if you're still willing to have me. Now, this goes back a few steps to when we were talking about when you should leave a church.

Should a pastor always leave a church if there's a considerable number of people who are extremely unhappy with that pastor for one reason or another, even if they are a minority, but they are a considerable number?

How do you, obviously, case -by -case situations will probably change an answer, but just your situation?

I think a case -by -case resolution of that is exactly right,

Chris. Because God might drive the people unhappy out, especially if they are the ones in the wrong.

Yes. It may be that in God's providence, if you stay the course, some of them will leave, some of them will change their minds, some of your enemies will become your friends.

But it's also the case that they may make your life so miserable that you have to leave.

I think that it's important that a man is thinking not about his own comfort.

I always go back to Jeremiah. Whenever I think of good things hard, I go back to Jeremiah and the 40 years of ministry that he had.

And I mean, that's amazing, the fortitude that he showed in beginning to end.

Things were hard. Things have never been that hard for me. I think the question that a man always ought to ask is, what is best for the church?

What's in the church's highest interest? And sometimes for the sake of unity, it may be best for him to leave in the hope that the church will be able to call someone around whom they will be much more united than they have been around that man himself.

But I mean, these are very broad statements, and it is a case -by -case situation, as you say.

And if you could prepare some of our pastors and pastors to be, by addressing a bit your chapter, what will a change be like?

What will a change be like? Well, there is first of all the whole matter of leaving, and that will vary according to the kind of relationship that you've had.

And if you read the book, which is full of stories of men who've had to go through that kind of thing, you know, you have

Thomas Chalmers leaving Colmania in Fife, and it just broke his heart.

Another man, Adam Forman, would go sometimes and stand on the shore, look across the water to the area where he used to be, always with wistful feelings, a connection to it.

Other times, a man will be glad to go because things have so broken down.

When he's gone, he'll just thank the Lord that it's over, going to a new situation.

I think what the book tries to do with a variety of real -life case situations is to show that there often are difficulties.

I had a friend who was 40 years my senior when I was at the

Pre -Church of Scotland College, my minister. He was in his late 60s when

I was in my early 20s, and he had had a number of pastorates and some rough experiences.

He used to say to me often, David, where you've got people, you've got problems. And you know, you go from one congregation to another, you've got to be, there's no point being naive.

You've got to exchange one set of problems for another set of problems because where you've got people, you've got problems.

And so you may go and you may find that there are things that you didn't anticipate.

You may have problems with the building, you may have all kinds of issues. Alternatively, you know, you may go and the

Lord will do wonderful things through your ministry. I think what's good is to think about a couple of things.

When you think about Paul, accepting the Macedonian call to go over into Macedonia.

It's hardly there before he and Silas have been beaten and they're in jail.

And that was rough. And you think, well, did they make a mistake?

Well, obviously they didn't make a mistake. So you gather from that, that the very fact that things are rough, things are hard, that is no infallible sign that you've made a mistake.

There are going to be trials, there are going to be problems. So that's helpful. And the other thing about that incident is to think of what came of it.

The converts, the churches that were planted, the inspired letters that were written to those churches, or the inspired account of that whole incident in the book of Acts, the

Philippian jailer. How many times has the question, what must I do to be saved, been preached on?

How many thousands and tens of thousands of conversions and the apostolic letters and the fruit that that has borne and will continue to bear till the end of time, all out of the response to that Macedonian call.

Yes, as you look forward, be realistic. There are going to be problems, there are going to be trials, but who can tell what fruit will be born, what blessing will come to the end of time itself from the good work that you're enabled to do.

You go forward with faith, trusting that as the scriptures say, our labour in the

Lord is not in vain. Amen. And I just want to let our listeners know that Pastor Campbell will be coming back to Iron Sharpens Iron, God willing, on Thursday the 29th of October, just a couple of days before Reformation Day.

And he's going to be speaking on John Knox. What can you briefly tell us about John Knox before you go today,

Pastor Campbell? Because I know you can't be on with us for the second hour as we were hoping. Oh, John Knox is my number one

Scottish hero. He's probably Scotland's greatest churchman. I had the privilege of writing a short biography called

Travel with John Knox, published also by Day One, which was able to combine an introductory study of his life, account of his life, with photographs of all the places associated with John Knox so that you can read the story and visit the places.

And if you can't visit places, you can look at the photographs and see whereabouts he was born, where he ministered, all kinds of things like that.

And what are some of the other books that you've written so we can have you back on to address all of them eventually,

God permitting, in your schedule permitting? Well, Day One has another series called

Opening Up. John Knox is published by Day One. All the books are published by Day One.

John Knox was in the Travel Guide series. There's an Opening Up series, which is basic introductory studies of books of the

Bible. I was privileged to do one on Titus, and then a few years later,

Opening Up Galatians. If you're looking for a sort of first rung of the ladder, if you like, introduction to these books, they've got questions, so they're helpful for Bible studies.

The fifth book is one, curiously enough, I didn't actually have to write, which may seem strange, but there was a lady in our congregation,

Sara Leone at the time, who was taking the videos of our services and from them, transcribing some of the pulpit prayers, printing them out and using them herself, giving them to others.

And eventually she gathered together a whole selection of them, put them into different categories and offered them to Day One.

And they agreed to publish them. I actually find it very difficult to even read my own prayers in the book, but they were willing to do it, and I was willing to allow them to do it, if it would do any good.

And I am encouraged, I know people do use the book, they use the prayers, and I think it's called, it is called,

I shouldn't know the name of the book, it's called Heart Cries to Heaven.

Great title. Well, I know that your website is gracebaptistcarlisle .org,

gracebaptistcarlisle, C -A -R -L -I -S -L -E .org, and the phone number of Grace Baptist Church in Carlisle is 717 -249 -4912, 717 -249 -4912.

And we're going to be in our second hour discussing some interesting topics with Dennis Swanson, the former

Vice President of the Master Seminary, that really dovetail perfectly with the subject that we just addressed with Pastor Campbell, five mistakes churches make looking for a pastor, and five mistakes pastors make looking for a church.

Pastor David Campbell, we thank you so much for being our guest for the first hour, and we look forward to having you back very soon, brother.

Thank you very much, Chris, it's been a pleasure, and I look forward to coming back too. And if you have any questions for Dennis Swanson coming up on the mistakes churches make looking for a pastor, and the mistakes pastors make looking for a church, you can send them to us by email at chrisarnson at gmail .com,

chrisarnson at gmail .com. Please give us your first name, your city and state, your country of residence if you live outside the

USA, and please give us at least your first name, unless you must remain anonymous due to a personal and private matter.

We look forward to hearing from you after these messages, so don't go away. I'm James White of Alpha Omega Ministries.

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Well, ladies and gentlemen, we are not going to have our second guest today. We have no idea where he is.

He was in flight earlier this morning and said that he was going to land with ample time to do the show.

This was an unexpected trip that he was going on, but obviously, God had different plans than our guest did, so perhaps we'll have him back on in the future.

But we will now play something from the best of Iron Sharpens Iron. Here is an interview with Dr.

Peter Lilback of Westminster Theological Seminary on George Washington's sacred fire.

We hope you enjoy something from the treasure trove of the best of Iron Sharpens Iron. Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister

George Norcross in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors,

Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, quote, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

Now here's our host, Chris Arntzen. Good afternoon,

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth, listening via live streaming.

This is Chris Arntzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron, wishing you all a happy Friday on this day before 4th of July weekend,

Friday, July 3rd, 2015. And are you down in the dumps because of recent events in regard to the

Supreme Court decision on same -sex marriage? Are you feeling a little bit less than patriotic?

Are you pessimistic about our future? Well, let's start 4th of July weekend with a good dose of patriotism, and I'm so delighted that I have for the very first time as a guest on Iron Sharpens Iron Dr.

Peter Lilback, who is Professor of Historical Theology and President of Westminster Theological Seminary in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, and today we're talking about his monumental 1208 -page work

George Washington's Sacred Fire, and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you to Iron Sharpens Iron for the very first time,

Dr. Peter Lilback. Chris, thank you so much. What a joy to be with you on this special weekend talking about the wonderful life and faith of George Washington.

It's great to be with all your listeners. Yes, and it's great to have you. I did, as you recall, years ago when

Iron Sharpens Iron ran between 2006 and 2011 before I went on a four -year hiatus,

I did try a couple of times to get you on the program, and providentially it just didn't work out those couple of times, but thankfully a very opportune and timely day that we have to interview you on the day before Independence Day weekend, or I guess

I should say it's the first day of Independence Day weekend. But first of all, tell our listeners briefly something about Westminster Theological Seminary.

Some of our listeners may be unaware of that institution, but most of them are because most of my listeners are more than likely

Reformed in their theology, but for those of my listeners who are unfamiliar with Westminster, tell us briefly something about that.

Well, it's great to tell folks about the seminary I serve. It started in 1929.

It grew out of Princeton Theological Seminary, and the reason for that is our founder,

J. Gresham Machen, was convinced that with the reorganization of the board to reflect the

Presbyterian Church instead of reflecting the historic theology of Princeton, that there would come a time where the gospel would not be preached and the

Bible would be rejected as the authority of God. People thought he was pretty radical, but as we look back now, some 86, 87 years, we realize he was absolutely right on the money.

So Westminster was started by Machen with five or six of the faculty members from the faculty of Princeton coming and starting

Westminster. They took the name Westminster because they wanted to maintain the historic theology of the

Westminster Confession of Faith. It's the real climax confession of the

Reformation period. It has the highest possible view of biblical authority, and its expansive understanding of theology based upon Scripture is without peer.

It is truly an extraordinary accomplishment, and that's the legacy that we build on. Westminster through the years has had many significant contributions to the

Church. One of the things that we're especially known for is called presuppositional apologetics, sometimes called worldview analysis today.

That was Dr. Van Til. We still require our students to learn the Bible in original languages.

Every student who is in our major programs has to learn Greek and Hebrew. We study in the original languages.

We have Christ -centered preaching from Genesis to Revelation. We've developed a very important discipline called biblical counseling, counseling that doesn't ask you to just become a human being when you go to share your family or personal challenges, but the ability to come to someone who recognizes you as a human being who's made in the image of God, one who has a hope to find the grace of God through the

Word and the Holy Spirit. So biblical counseling has been part of our heritage. We teach church history from the ancient church right up to the modern age, and we've been studying very deeply in Reformed theology, trying to understand how the

Reformed faith has grown out of all the traditions right up to the present. Lastly, we have students from all around the world.

We have over 600 students studying with us doing master's and doctoral level studies, and they become leaders all around the world.

Over 100 denominations have been with us, and I think probably 50 or 60 countries we've lost track now have come and gone in the last 20 years from the seminary.

So it has a worldwide impact, and as Machen's vision was to train specialists in the

Bible, and that's what we do. We train specialists in the Bible who preach the whole counsel of God to advance the kingdom of Christ worldwide.

Well, somebody sends their greetings to you, the innkeeper of the 19th century manse that is the new home of Iron Sharpens Iron.

This program is broadcasting live from the 19th century parsonage of a local historic figure here in Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, George Norcross, who was a

Presbyterian pastor. In fact, he was the pastor of the second Presbyterian church here in Carlisle in the late 1800s and early 1900s, and the current owner of this manse, the old manse as we call it around here,

Albert Stever, who just celebrated the 50th anniversary of his graduation from Westminster.

He and his wife Dottie Stever send their greetings to you, and I actually invited

Al to be a co -host with me today, but he was unable to due to prior commitments, but Al Stever, the

Reverend Al Stever is a retired Orthodox Presbyterian pastor, and he sends his greetings to you.

That's great. I had the joy of seeing him at our recent commencement program. Oh, great. We celebrated his 50th year of graduation from Westminster, so he was a 50 -year alum, so we welcomed him back, and it's good to know the connection of your broadcast from that historic location.

Yes, I am delighted about it too, and it was more than fascinating to me to discover this after moving in here, and I'm so delighted to be a part of this community here now.

Now, this book, which is obviously an enormous labor of love on your part, 1 ,208 pages long, the book has a very captivating title,

George Washington's Sacred Fire. Almost sounds like George Washington may have been a precursor to the

Pentecostal movement with a title like that, but tell us why the title,

George Washington's Sacred Fire? Well, it's interesting that George Washington, as he was giving his inaugural address to America, he said, the sacred fire of liberty has been entrusted into the hands of the

American people, and it's interesting, he saw the Republican form of democracy that we have in our

Constitution as an experiment, and he recognized that it may not work, that people may not be able to live up to its challenge, but he saw what it was intending to do was to preserve liberty.

It was the sacred fire of liberty that was entrusted to the people, and so the image is not, it's just a wildfire of liberty like the

French Revolution that burns out of control. No, it's a gift from God, it's holy, and he saw

Republican liberty as a form of conscious following of transcendent laws.

The freedom was grounded in God, and he said, Americans, you need to understand this experiment is in your hands, and whether it survives or not is up to you, and so I named the book

Sacred Fire using the very words that Washington himself used in a way of saying that his faith was actually something that impacted the way he governed and the way he lived his life, which of course was something that people were knocking and attacking and denying and basically saying he was not a religious man, in fact he was a deist, which is really the form of a denial of any revelation from God or that there's a personal

God who acts in history, and it's really the idea that you just have a first cause to get everything going, and then

God is utterly irrelevant for the rest of life, and I wanted to show from Washington's life and his writings and his relationships and the people who knew him closely and their testimonies and reports that he was in fact a man who had a deep

Christian faith, and that's what I wrote about in that long book. And of course a deist, as you did explain a little bit about what that is, a deist basically makes

God into a celestial spectator, that he created the world, the universe, set it in motion, and basically just watches and doesn't have any intimate personal relationship with what's happening, correct?

That's exactly right. So you could think of a deist as the idea of an absentee landlord.

Kind of owns everything but never shows up, doesn't take care of anything, he lets it just go on its own.

So he's the first cause, but doesn't hear prayer, he doesn't intervene in providence, and therefore pastors can't possibly be speaking

God's Word because he never revealed himself, and Jesus Christ, who may have been a historical figure, clearly could not have been the

God -man. He could not have been someone who was in fact fully divine, fully human in one person.

And so that approach of deism was actually celebrated in the

Age of Reason by a man who wrote Common Sense, a very important patriotic book in the

Revolution, by the name of Thomas Paine. And Thomas Paine said providence is just one of the mythologies of Christianity, and he ridiculed the idea that there was a notion that God was active in history.

Well, I like to respond by saying, well, Johnny Cochran is not my favorite attorney, and O .J.

Simpson is not the best person ever to be on trial, but Johnny Cochran had a great line. He said, if it doesn't fit, you must acquit.

So I like to say, let's take the glove of deism, and let's see if we can make it fit on Washington's large hand.

Did he, in fact, say there's no providence? Well, guess what? That's Washington's favorite theological word.

He uses it some 260 times or something like that, and I'm not talking about Providence, Rhode Island.

I've counted them all. They're all theological, and it was his favorite doctrine.

Secondly, did he believe in prayer? Well, there are over a hundred prayers in Washington's own handwriting in his letter.

There's as short as a sentence, and some are like two or three paragraphs long. He was, in fact, someone who believed in prayer.

Did he reject clergy? No, he didn't. He said that the clergy were very important.

He required that there be chaplains in his army, even when money was very scarce, and according to his record, he entertained over a hundred pastors or wrote to them personally.

I think it breaks it down 50 -50, something like that. Fifty pastors spent time at Mount Vernon on visit, and he wrote over 50 letters to pastors personally.

That's amazing. He was not opposed to the clergy. In fact, he was a church warden, a chief vestryman in the

Anglican slash Episcopalian church. What about the Bible? Did he reject the

Bible? Well, he calls it the blessed religion revealed in the Word of God will remain an eternal monument that human nature can, by its depravity, destroy the very best of institutions.

Wow, he sounds like a Presbyterian minister when he says that. He called the Bible the Word of God. It's revelation.

It's eternal. Well, you can't get more about the Scripture. On top of that, in Appendix 2 of Sacred Fire, I indicate over 200 biblical phrases, allusions, or citations that come out of Washington's writings, and I know

I didn't get them all. Those are the ones that were really obvious as I was working through it, and I actually identify the passage and the place where he uses it.

One of my favorite examples of this is that there are a couple times he writes a letter.

One of them is to the Marquis de Lafayette, and I've forgotten who the other one is, but in one paragraph there are literally seven to nine different biblical allusions in one paragraph.

Now, Washington didn't have a strong concordance when he was doing that. He was doing that either with a

Bible on his desk or just from his own memory. I'd like to give your listeners a homework assignment. Go home today and write a letter to a friend and include in it biblical phrases from nine different passages of the

Bible, and it can't be a commentary. You're just using Bible phrases to talk about life.

I dare you to do it. To be able to do that, you need to know the Bible right down to your fingertips.

This is a guy who really knew the scriptures, so we can see the glove doesn't even fit, but what about the

Christ? Was Jesus just a good man? No, he calls him the divine author of our blessed religion.

That's his phrase. He's divine. He is the author of our personal religion, Christianity, and he goes on to say,

America can never expect to be a happy nation unless it imitates the divine author of our blessed religion, and he says, therefore, we must do justice, we must love mercy, and we, instead of saying, and walk humbly with our

God like Micah 6 -8 does, he says, do justice, love mercy, and we must imitate the divine author of our blessed religion.

So he's basically seeing Christ in the Old Testament. He sounds like he's a Westminster student at that. But you know, what's interesting is that he says there's three things

America needs to imitate Christ on. One is commitment to charity or love.

His specific temper of mind, that is a commitment to peace. And then thirdly is humility.

Someone who is willing to humble himself to serve others. He said, unless we have those qualities of love, peace, and humility like Jesus Christ, we will never be a happy nation.

These were his official words that he wrote as the victorious, conquering general at the end of the revolution.

He wrote it to 13 governors of now independent states. He signed it 13 times, and this is the longest prayer that he wrote.

He says, I now make it my earnest prayer for you. And then he goes on and he includes then that our prayer that we would imitate

Christ. So let's go back. Here's the glove of Jesus. Does he reject providence?

No. His favorite doctrine. Does he reject prayer? There's over a hundred prayers. Does he reject clergy?

No. 50 were in his home and 50 letters written. Does he reject the Bible? No. He calls it the word of God that's a revelation.

And he cites it over 200 times. And then finally, what about Christ? He says he's divine and he is the one who we must imitate if we're going to be successful as a nation.

You know what? We can no longer call Washington a deist. It is a lie. It is a historical fallacy.

This historical revisionism. If Washington is speaking himself, the facts are just straight up.

He was clearly identifying himself as a Christian man writing to what he understood to be a generally

Christian public. I want to give our email address here if you are listening and you have a question for Dr.

Peter Lilback on the life and faith of George Washington, the father of our country as he is known.

The email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com. This is a live broadcast, so please send your emails as soon as you can.

chrisarnsen at gmail .com. C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

How would you respond to the argument that George Washington was just speaking in the reverent language of common in his day?

You have people even like Benjamin Franklin and Thomas Jefferson who would be far to the left of Washington, but in comparison to today's world would have been arch -fundamentalists if they were alive today.

But you have people just using this reverent, very deeply reverent and religious language about God and about Christ, and yet you had someone like Thomas Jefferson having a version of the

Bible where he removed all the miraculous occurrences and so on. So how would you describe or answer that question,

I should say? Was he just merely mimicking the popular language of the day in reference to God?

Well, it's clear that you could argue that Washington was just simply trying to get votes and had speechwriters making him sound religious, which seems to be the practice today.

The only problem is that when much of what Washington said, he wasn't running for office. He used this language not just in public speeches, but he used it in private correspondence.

It reflects his only personal commitment, and sometimes he does it in public situations where it's utterly unnecessary, and he does it consistently when he's writing to churches.

It's amazing. I think Washington actually wrote something like 30 different letters to different churches throughout his life, and he could have easily given those away to letter writers and not bothered to sign them, but in doing so, he consistently uses language that reflects a belief in eternal life, a belief in the work of God in history, the belief of biblical truth.

So he's indicating himself as a person of faith to people of faith, and he never had to do that.

It was not required of him at all. So I think the bottom line is he communicates his religious language, his faith language in private and public, but there's a couple places where he actually, and this is actually written to a minister, which is fascinating.

He says, there is no man who has a more commitment of faith and trust in the

Almighty than me. I think that's quite a statement. He's saying, this is a private letter to a minister, and he says,

I have a deeper faith. The reason he had to say this is when he was at Valley Forge, remember,

Congress had fled Philadelphia. They had never supplied him adequately.

The British now control the capital city, and Washington was freezing in the cold at Valley Forge.

He didn't have anything except a prayer, and that's the point. The reason that he was able to continue to persevere when everything was against him is that he believed, as he says, our cause is just, and God will stand with justice.

He was a man who believed that God's goodness would supply the need of his people if they were faithful to follow him.

One of the best examples that I love to appeal to, and when people come with me on a tour to Valley Forge, I love to take them to the place where General Muhlenberg was actually encamped as part of the army.

Muhlenberg was actually a Lutheran minister. He's the man who famously was preaching on Ecclesiastes where it says there's a time for war and a time for peace, and he opened up his

Genevan robe as he was preaching, and there under his preaching robe he had on a

Continental Army uniform of an officer, and he said, this is a time for war.

Suddenly drums were beating in the background, and he marched the men off from church to go to battle.

I wondered if you were a wife, and I said, you've got to go to church this Sunday. You never go, and all of a sudden he goes, and off he goes to war.

Well, anyway, here's this Muhlenberg, General Muhlenberg at Valley Forge. His father,

Henry Melchior Muhlenberg, was a Lutheran minister, and in his diary he says,

I was in camp. He lived in Trapp, Pennsylvania just a few miles away from Valley Forge because his son was an officer.

He was able to get in to visit, and he wrote, George Washington came to the camp, and he told his men to put away their swearing and their unbelief and to put their faith in the

Redeemer, and he says, this man is not a normal statesman, a public person who only talks it.

He is preaching the gospel. That's quite an amazing thing for a missionary preacher to look at the commanding officer and say, this man was actually preaching.

So that's an eyewitness testimony of Washington by calling on his men as he did in some of his general orders.

While you're becoming a patriot, a man of honor, add to your honor the highest honor of being a

Christian. He wanted his men to put their faith in Christ. Amen. Now, every child, well, actually,

I don't know if every child today knows this story, but when I was a child, and I'm sure when you were a child, you heard the story about George Washington being so honest that when he chopped down his father's favorite cherry tree and his father was upset, his father had to ask him about it, and George, in his honesty, admitted that he chopped it down.

Now, obviously, legends like that sometimes come from a reality, and was there something about his honesty that seemed above and beyond the ordinary man in that day where that legend would come from such a person?

Well, let's put it this way. We'll start with the written statements of Washington. He does say honesty is the best policy, and he really believed that speaking authentically was part of true leadership.

He recognized that leaders, especially in the military, cannot say everything they know because they have to operate under a clan that were surprised as necessary, but his position was it was important to be as authentically truthful as you could.

But now, while that was an important thing, that doesn't say anything about the cherry tree episode, so let's talk about that.

Number one, we know George Washington had an axe, and we know also that he grew cherry trees on his estate because he mentioned them.

Now, how do we get this story? Well, it actually comes to us from an Anglican minister by the name of Nathan Weems.

He's from the part of Virginia where Washington was from, and he actually was someone who

Washington knew personally. Washington actually endorsed one of his books, gave him a very high endorsement, so he heard him preach.

He knew his writings, and according to Parson Weems, whose first biography of George Washington has never gone out of print since the beginning, it was known by Abraham Lincoln.

It's still in print to this day. It's the bestseller for 100 years on Washington's life. He was from that area, and according to him, he went around and interviewed all the families that knew

Washington, and he asked, well, tell us some of the anecdotes and stories you know about young George.

None of us knew he would become such a famous man, but everybody wants to know about him, and I'm writing a book.

Tell me some of the stories. Well, he tells us this story was learned by the people that knew George Washington and his family as he was growing up.

That doesn't mean it's true, but that's where it comes from, that it was a legend that was heard and it was picked up.

Now, what is interesting is that there is an ability to show that the story was circulating even in the early years of the

American independency, because there was a very special kind of porcelain that was being made in Germany.

There was a special vase that was made on this very unique porcelain that's only made for a few years in Germany.

They can date it, but it was expert. It has a cherry tree, axes, 1776, and the letters

GW on it. It shows that the story of the cherry tree and George Washington made it all the way to Europe very early after American independence in the 1780s.

It wasn't when Washington was now the president when someone made it up, but there's actually evidence that it had been picked up probably by the

Hessian soldiers. Remember, a number of German soldiers came and encountered Washington, and he became recognized as one of the great military heroes of history.

So, this childhood story was actually being commemorated in Germany, and there's evidence for that.

So, I actually include that in the book and my sources if anybody's interested. We're going to be going to a break right now.

If you have a question for Dr. Pete Littleback on George Washington, his life and faith, please email us at chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

That's C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

When you email us, please give at least your first name and the city and state from where you are writing, and we look forward to hearing from you and your questions for Dr.

Pete Littleback after these messages, so don't go away. I'm James White of Alpha Omega Ministries.

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That's wrbc .us. Welcome back.

This is Chris Zarnes. And if you've just tuned into Iron Sharpens Iron, our guest today is Dr. Peter Lilback, who is professor of historical theology and president of Westminster Theological Seminary in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania.

And before I forget, let me give their website. It's wts .edu.

W -T -S for Westminster Theological Seminary dot edu. And we are discussing

George Washington's Sacred Fire, the book, the 1 ,208 -page monumental work by Dr.

Pete Lilback. And before we even go into our audience questions, how long did it take you to write this 1 ,200 -page massive monumental work?

Well, let's say I never knew I was going to write the book, but I got embarrassed very early on in my first pastorate when

I was in the middle of what, believe it or not, was the year of the Bible in America. Ronald Reagan was president.

The Congress had signed this legislation, and Bible storybooks were being passed out at a local school in Oxford, Pennsylvania.

And the ACLU came to down and said, you're going to get sued unless you stop. I was appalled that they were taking away children's storybooks in the year of the

Bible. And I wrote a letter to the editor. Little did I know that when you stick your head out of the foxhole, you get shot at.

A week later, here's the weekly newspaper. And they criticized my lack of knowledge, and I thought, my goodness, maybe

I'm wrong. I'm not an American church historian. I did Reformation in my field. And so I thought, well,

I better know what I'm talking about. So I decided I would never talk about this subject again until I'd researched it.

So it became a hobby out of sheer embarrassment. Fell in love with it, and early on came across the debate on Washington and started to pursue him.

So 20 years later, after note cards and study leaves and on and off, you know, a hobby, you don't do it all the time, but I put a lot of energy in.

I got a call from one of the staff members of Dr. James Kennedy at Coral Ridge Presbyterian, and it was amazing.

He said to his staff, if you can get your book done this year, I will buy 19 ,000 copies for my ministry.

I was stunned. The book was not even written. He just knew my research and my theme. And he said, well, that meant

I had to get it done. So for the next nine months, from about 11 o 'clock at night to two in the morning, almost every day, every night,

I should say, I just was in there cranking out those notes, trying to get the book done. By God's grace, it got done.

So we published 25 ,000 of them, and 19 went, and we sold them out for the next two or three years, and they were just kind of about running out.

And we thought, well, I guess that's the end of that. What a wonderful story. And then that's when some guy named Glenn Beck got a hold of the book.

He started telling his folks on his national television radio program, every American needs to read this book.

And believe it or not, it shot up to be the number one bestselling book on the Amazon book list for a week.

It's an extraordinary success. Totally unplanned, but so what can

I say? It was a hobby for 20 years, and it took me nine months to write it. But I actually thought before all that first invitation came along,

I would probably just have a lot of note cards and files that I would pass on to my children, and they'd throw them away.

And I just researched and had fun. There it is. It's a book. Amen. And let me say with all respect to Glenn Beck, I hope that he one day embraces the faith of George Washington, as he did enthusiastically embrace your book.

Some of our listeners may not be aware that he is a Mormon, and we hope that one day he comes to faith in the true living

God. But before I go on to a couple of our audience questions, one of the controversies, as you are fully aware, that surrounds

George Washington is the fact that he was a member of the Masonic Lodge. And my very dear friend,

John Otis, who happens to be a Presbyterian minister, wrote a really phenomenal work.

In fact, it's the largest book critiquing the Masonic Lodge from a

Christian perspective in print, unveiling Freemasonry's idolatry.

And so this seems to be an incompatible thing with Christianity, membership in the

Masonic Lodge. How do you explain the fact that George Washington was a member of this lodge?

Well, I think it's an excellent question and a very important one. In fact, when I started researching

Washington, when I discovered he was a Mason, I said, okay, well, that destroys my case.

I just simply said it's impossible that he could have been a Christian. But then

I started doing some more research, and I found some interesting things. The man, Parson Weems, who is this

Anglican minister who is known as a gospel preacher, who did so much work to publicize

Washington as a moral man and a leader, he himself was a Mason. And I thought, wait a second, why would a gospel man be a

Mason? What's going on here? It didn't make any sense. And, well, I started doing research, and I was able to get up to the

Boston Athenaeum. The reason I went there is that that's where most of George Washington's personal library ended up residing.

It's a long story how it got there, but it's a limited access library. I was given permission to do research there, and as I did,

I came across various volumes of sermons that George Washington had actually collected and then had bound together.

They were not published by anybody except him. He had, according to the family tradition, that every

Sabbath afternoon, Washington would read a sermon to Martha. That was the way they would celebrate the quietness of a

Sabbath in the afternoon. They would read sermons. And so he had bound them together. He called them his political sermons, and they had miscellaneous sermons, and there are multiple volumes, maybe five or six of these, and one of them he called his

Masonic sermons. And I said, what in the world is that, Masonic sermons? I started opening them up, and lo and behold,

I discovered it was the practice of the Masonic order in early colonial

America and into the Washington's era. On St. John's Day, to have one of the leading ministers of the area to come in and preach the gospel or preach a text to the congregation.

In fact, one of the Presbyterian ministers that a lot of our men loved in this day, Samuel Miller, used to preach

Masonic sermons. That was part of his regular preaching. And let me tell you, he was as orthodox and faithful as they come.

And so I thought, what in the world is this all about? I've got to start reading this. And so one of the things

I did is I went back, I got a Masonic encyclopedia, and I discovered a segment that was called

Christian Masons. And as I read the article, it said, we as Masons must recognize that wherever Christianity goes, it evangelizes and it

Christianizes. And we must admit there is a form of the Masonic order that calls themselves

Christian Masons. Now, we don't see ourselves as Christians in this tradition, but they exist.

I thought, well, that's fascinating. They admit that. And then I went a little bit further and I started reading the sermons from Washington, from this collection of Masonic sermons.

So here's one of my favorites. A particular preacher was preaching, and he said, let me, in this midst of my sermon, remind you of what the bylaws of our

Masonic order tells us. Well, we are Christian Masons. And then he quotes the bylaws.

It says, because we are Christian Masons, no stupid atheist or deist may be a member of our fraternity.

Now, I'm quoting now, if there's any atheist or deist out there, I didn't call you stupid. That's another debate for another day.

That's right out of the bylaws. They said, you can't be a deist or an atheist to be a member because we believe atheists and the stupid.

And then I went a little bit further and I started looking at some of the biblical preaching. And here's one of my favorites.

There was a minister who was preaching and one of the Masonic sermons went like this, some of you think you're going to get into heaven because you have worn the robe of Martin Luther.

You're in the Lutheran tradition, but that won't get you into heaven. Some of you think you're going to get into heaven because you wore the robe of John Calvin.

That's not going to get you into heaven. Some of you think you're going to get into heaven because you've worn the robe of St. Augustine.

But Augustinians Aren't going to get to heaven because of being an augustinian Some of you think you're going to get into heaven because you've worn the apron of the mason

I assure you no masonic apron is going to get you into heaven If you want to get into heaven, you must be clothed in the righteousness of jesus christ received by faith.

Amen And I said that's a sermon that was preached in a masonic home

And it was in george, washington's masonic sermon in his library that he personally clicked and the answer is yes

So I want to say i'm not a mason I've never been a mason. I don't intend to become a mason and I don't urge anyone to become a mason

I recognize the masonic order can in fact be absolutely hostile and alien to biblical christianity but apparently

For a period of time in america. There was a movement called christian masonry

And they saw themselves as being compatible Now, let me give you a good example of this going on in america.

Maybe you know the name of john wanamaker Wanamaker was one of the great retail experts in america young reformed presbyterian businessman in philadelphia

He started the wanamaker's department stores and he started the sunday breakfast mission many other

Wonderful deeds a christian shared known as one of the most godly men in his day and he said

Here was his principles. He said if you want to become an important biblical sound leader in your community

You need to read the bible as a christian You need to keep the sabbath

John wanamaker used to close the curtains on his window on sunday So you wouldn't be tempted to do window shopping on the lord's day

And then he said you should become a mason And I don't know what to tell you about that. But this is part of the history.

So as a historian I discovered that there is a sound historical contextual analysis of the masonic

Christian intersection in the colonial era in america that did not demand that you rejected the christian faith

I mentioned parson weems who was known as an evangelical gospel preacher Who was uh always attacked because of his gospel analysis and moral character of washington.

He was an active member. So Do what you will. I don't recommend anybody to do it

But that's part of the story and I think so Therefore my point is that being a mason at that time in history did not prove you were a deist or a non -christian

We have a listener calvin in fayetteville, north carolina Who wants to know how george washington viewed slavery in light

Of scripture, obviously, that's even more of a controversial issue than the masonic lodge is and it is brought up very often today

Especially by liberals. So if you could comment on that Yes first of all george washington

Lived a productive life as we know and but he was the fourth generation of washington virginians

And he had known slavery from the very first breath. He took and until the day he died

Slavery surrounded virginia. It was part of his family and he owned slaves. So his earliest writings

He has a cavalier attitude toward his slaves. He mentions one slave that's giving him problems.

He says take him back to the Caribbean and sell him and bring back lemons and limes and molasses and maybe some rum

I want to get rid of him your heart breaks when you read about that because he had Indifference, but you know, it was interesting from that point something happened when america began to realize that they were being enslaved

By britain through the taxation of the stamp act and the intolerable acts

So that when the fairfax resolves were passed the decision was made by The virginians that they would no longer

Participate in the slave trade with britain. They ended it entirely Now that was not renouncing slavery.

It was renouncing the international slave trade. That was the first step and I think there was a moral conflict that began to emerge in the minds of Several of the leaders who were slave owners in the colonies

They said, you know We don't want to be slaves How is it that we have slaves?

The golden rule began to press in do unto others that you have them do unto we don't want to be slaves

Why do we have slaves? Now that was a that was a moral struggle. It was in it was endemic.

It was culturized It was accepted But then what happens is that after the revolution?

Then traveling, uh methodist ministers stop in to visit george, washington And when they the bishops of the church as they come in to visit

They record this actually in their minutes of their their visit with them. They said

General, washington now that you are back home on your Plantation we believe it's time for slavery to end

Where do you stand on slavery? And george, washington according to their records the methodist bishops that this is his home said

That Slavery must end in america and I believe it must end. I think it's wrong

Amen How do we end it? And he began to envision

The the question is this something that is going to eventually phase out because it has to and so Washington said i'm not in political office at this time, which he wasn't he was a private citizen before uh the uh

Constitutional convention and the all the things that happened there He wasn't serving in the house of burgesses

But he said so I can't do anything publicly, but I want you to know Slavery does need to end

So he admitted at that point in a private conversation Now washington continued to have slaves as we go on from that point even on until his time as the president

But what is interesting is that if he gets to the end of his life If he's thinking about his life

And what he's done and the fact that he believes he's going to meet his maker and give an account for his life

He began to wrestle with this and in his will he said I upon my death

Intend to free every slave that is mine And I personally will provide for them and I especially remember my body slave billy lee

And they get provided a lifetime endowment for him. Amen During these years as washington made a commitment in his will to free the slaves

He actually began to train them in trades. They began to learn skills that they would need upon the ending of their life as slave uh slaves of a master but becoming self -employed

And so what is interesting is that as we look at washington's life We see a man who is clearly flawed by his era and his conviction who over time begins to realize his failure

And begins to address it and then takes decisive actions to end it so that washington is the only slave -owning president that Freed his slaves on his own initiative that america has ever had.

Amen. The other president who had slaves were forced to end them by death or by the civil war

Washington actually set the model that america followed his pattern That we could have avoided the civil war and freed the slaves

He said we need to end them at the end of our generation and provide for them Amen, so even where he's the most flawed

He is a man who is showing integrity and beginning to show the way forward And so I have to even admire him.

I guess condemn his owning slaves But I could see over his life he actually began to have an attitude of this is wrong

I have to do something. He did something and he showed the way forward and we're going to have to stop that rerun

Right here of our interview with dr. Peter lilbeck of westminster theological seminary in philadelphia

Pennsylvania that was our interview on george washington's sacred fire The book that peter lilbeck wrote in tribute of the first president of the united states of america

And we hope that you look up that mp3 on the archive of iron sharpens iron radio and listen to it in its entirety

We had about 12 minutes to go before the end of that broadcast so you can go to iron sharpens iron radio .com

Iron sharpens iron radio .com and go to the podcast archive in the top right corner and click on that and you can type in the

Actually, you could type in the search bar on the top right L -i -l -l -b -a -c -k that's peter lilbeck's last name l -i -l -l -b -a -c -k

And you can hear This broadcast in its entirety. We want to thank everybody who listened today

We are so sorry that our second guest was unavailable and we hope that he is well Perhaps you should say a prayer about that We hope that you tune in tomorrow as deckard stevens will be our guest talking about his trials

Coping with cancer and how the book of job enabled him to do that And we want you to all always remember for the rest of your lives that jesus christ is a far far greater savior