October 1, 2015 Show with David Campbell on “Handle That New Call with Care: Accepting or Declining a Call to a New Congregation” AND Dr. Dennis Swanson to discuss “5 Mistakes Churches Make Looking For a Pastor & 5 Mistakes Pastors Make Looking For a Church”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio

platform on which pastors, Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues

facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron so one

man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, quote, we are cautioned to take heed whom we

converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another

wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear

from you, the listener, with your own questions.

Now here's our host.

Chris Arnson.

Good afternoon Cumberland County, Pennsylvania and the rest of humanity living on the planet earth

who are listening via live streaming.

This is Chris Arnson, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron, wishing you all a happy Thursday on this first day of

October 2015 and I'm very excited about today's program because

my own pastor currently at Grace Baptist Church in Carlisle, Pennsylvania, David

Campbell is my guest today for the first hour and he is going to be discussing handle

that new call with care, accepting or declining a call to a new congregation

and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you to Iron Sharpens Iron, Pastor David Campbell.

Thank you Chris, good to be here.

Yeah and it's a pleasure to have you in the studio.

We actually tried to do this same interview once before but due to technical problems the only people that heard the

interview were me and Pastor Campbell so I'm very happy that he is able to come back

and God willing have this interview heard by everyone on the airwaves.

Tell us something about Grace Baptist Church in Carlisle, Pennsylvania.

Grace Baptist Church in Carlisle, Pennsylvania.

Dates from the very early 1950s, I think 1951, so

we're about just over 60 years old.

The original charter members came out of other churches in the town.

They were eager to have a distinctively evangelical ministry.

Ernie Riesinger, known to many of the listeners, I'm sure

very much at the heart of that, wasn't reformed in its thinking and theology.

At the outset that was something that came over the

coming years and then Walter Chantry with whom Grace

Baptist is associated in so many minds started his ministry here in 1963.

And ministered then for 39 years.

Wow.

And he was a guest not long ago on Iron Trappers Iron.

I.

Believe.

Yeah he was here till 2002 and then there was a two -month gap and I came.

Well I'm sure that.

The folks at Grace Baptist Church are very delighted that the Lord brought you there and you

are a.

Grace Baptist Church of Carlisle, Pennsylvania is a reformed Baptist Church.

Can you just give us a summary of what that actually means?

I think probably the simplest way to do.

That Chris is to say that the document

that sums up, that gives expression to our

foundational convictions is the 1689 London Baptist Confession of

Faith which is a slightly edited version of the Westminster

Confession.

So we are committed to the fundamental doctrines of the reformation.

Of 17th century Puritanism.

And wouldn't you say that the hymn Jesus paid it all, all to him I owe, sin has left its

crimson stain, he washed it white as snow.

Wouldn't you say that's a great very succinct summary of what the doctrines of grace are?

Yes and the prophet Jonah of whom I've been thinking

recently summed it up even better and he

said in his book and his prayer, salvation is of the Lord

and that really sums it up.

It is God who planned it, God who brings us to the experience of it,

God who accomplished it through the cross and God who will bring it to a glorious climax.

With certainty.

With certainty when our Lord.

Jesus Christ returns at the end of the age.

And even though many of the Christians who are not theologically reformed may sing that hymn and may

say with their lips that they owe all to God for their salvation, they're really not being consistent are

they?

If they are not theologically reformed.

Isn't the reformed theology the theology that best

explains and teaches the fact that we owe.

A hundred percent of our salvation to God?

Yes it does.

The one thing I would say Chris, I've got a soft spot for old -fashioned Wesleyan Methodism and

I have often been struck as I've read little biography after little biography of some

of these great Wesleyan saints how often they will speak of being enabled to do these in the Lord

Jesus Christ.

And it has often been said that we're all Calvinists on our knees.

That's right.

Because we are coming and we're recognizing the sovereignty of God and we're pleading with

him to be gracious to those who are on our hearts.

And Charles Adams Spurgeon had a big place in his heart for Wesleyans and John Wesley,

a figure from history to even him.

And he apparently from my last interview with Phil Johnson, the

executive director of John MacArthur's ministry, he said that the Wesleyans rallied to his

side during the downgrade controversy.

Yes I'm sure they did.

Well it's a pleasure to be here and by the way tell us something about an abbreviated version

of your own testimony of salvation.

I know that you're from Scotland.

Tell us exactly where and how you came to Christ and also how you

believe you were called into the ministry since that is the subject of our book in.

Many respects.

Yes thank you.

I was brought up in a Christian home.

It's a great privilege to know the gospel from my

earliest days.

I remember at the age of four my older sister praying with me and I had

a very childlike understanding of the gospel and of sin.

But I do remember praying that the Lord would come into my heart when I was four years of age.

Though for the next 14 years, particularly my teenage years, things were pretty much up and

down.

It may very well be that the Lord did save me at the age of four and that the vine seed was

planted there which has never been rooted out.

My life really did change when I was 18.

I had an experience that certainly if it didn't mark the beginning of

new life, restored it and gave to it

quality and consistency and joy I had never known before.

It was really then I was a member of our local Baptist church.

I was involved in the leadership of the young people and so on.

I went off to university.

I remember discussing with a fine Christian friend

what we thought God would have us to do in days to

come.

I remember saying with all sincerity that whatever it would be, we'd not be preaching

God's word.

Then I was asked to lead a Bible study in one of the halls of residence.

I felt so helped in the leading of that Bible study and felt such an ease,

such a help that it knocked it on the head there and then.

I began to think, well, perhaps that is something that the Lord might call me to do.

I was in some streets and I think it was probably midway through my

university course.

I wanted to witness.

I was witnessing, but I realized how shallow my own understanding of the

gospel was.

I could hardly even articulate the questions, let alone know what the

answers were.

I remember praying that the Lord would give to me an understanding of

salvation to a far greater degree than I had.

This was the summer of 1982.

I was 21 years old.

I was working, as I had done before in previous years, in a factory bakery in my hometown of

Ayr.

For some extraordinary reason, I was permitted to have

no less than two and a half hours off and eight and a half hour shift in different breaks.

I had a lot of time in my hand and I wondered what I should do.

I decided that I would read some Christian biographies.

Someone had given me a biography to read on my 21st birthday.

It was the first introduction to the whole realm of Christian biography and I

was gripped by it.

So, I went out to my local Church of Scotland bookshop and started buying and reading

biographies.

Now, you need to understand, I didn't know who these guys were.

Some of them, I knew their names, but to my shame, I knew almost nothing about

any of them.

But in God's providence, over the course of the summer, I read biographies of Robert Murray

McShane, George Whitefield, John Calvin, C .H. Spurgeon,

and one other whose name I've just forgotten.

But they were all, of course, men of Reformed convictions.

CB. So, you were previously to reading these books, or at the time that you

bought these books, you were still from an Arminian Plymouth Brethren background.

RM.

I was brought up in Christian Brethren.

There would have been men of Calvinistic convictions in the Brethren.

We never used labels.

Probably, it was predominantly Arminian, but I knew nothing about Calvinism.

But reading these books introduced me to the distinctives of

Calvinism.

They answered questions that I had, as I said, scarcely been able to articulate.

I really did not have any great struggle embracing them, quite the opposite, for the

most part, but it did something else.

Because I was reading it in the context of biography and in the context of vibrant

gospel ministries, I was seeing what the gospel had done

and how God had used men in the preaching of the gospel.

And it not only introduced me to a whole realm of thinking of theology to which I had been a stranger, it lit

a fire in my heart to preach the gospel myself.

And that would date my call to gospel ministry.

Certainly, the implanting of a strong desire to do gospel ministry to that summer

of 1982, I was 21 years old.

And I then went back to Glasgow University for one final year.

I began to look for jobs, but as time went on, before I even began to get

anything really into that, there was one thing that began to just dominate

until it eclipsed everything else.

And that was the desire to go and study for the work of the gospel ministry.

I thought, well, maybe years to come, let me do some work first.

But it became the all -consuming desire.

And I applied to the Free Church of Scotland College in Edinburgh, which is a Presbyterian

denominational school.

Free Church of Scotland is a direct lineal descendant of the Scottish Reformed Church of the

16th century.

I firmly committed to the Westminster Confession of Faith, at that time

exclusively psalm singing.

In a cappella, correct?

A cappella, yes.

And it was a place where I was going to be taught Reformed theology as the truth.

And I was going to be able to sit under distinguished men like Donald MacLeod and Douglas MacMillan.

I applied.

They have always had a policy of welcoming private students.

I, of course, was by that time a Baptist, this was a Presbyterian school, but they very

warmly welcomed me.

And I went there for four years.

And it was not only a great academic experience, it was a great spiritual experience as well, not

only the instruction, but actually being involved in the whole life of the Free Church,

preaching as a pope, as a student pastor.

And my friend, David Murray, of the Puritan Reformed Theological Seminary, who I've interviewed a number of times, said you

went to seminary with his father.

Yes, Alan Murray was, I think, he was a much

older man than me.

He had been a dentist, I believe.

So, he came in as a mature student.

He was in his final year when I was, sorry, he was in his first year when I was in my

final year.

So, I think we overlapped for a year.

So, I got to know Alan as a son I didn't know.

And how did you come to Baptist convictions?

Well, I grew up with Baptist convictions.

That's right, from the Plymouth Brethren.

And I struggled during the time at the Free Church

College.

I've struggled because I wanted to believe in infant baptism.

I wanted to be a minister of the Free Church of Scotland, but I could not

come to terms either with the position of exclusive samudae for worship or infant baptism.

But it has given me a profound respect for these men.

I love them.

I wish that I could have embraced infant baptism, but I was simply

unable to do so.

And so, I came out 26 years old after four years at the Free Church College, a very reluctant

Baptist.

But a Baptist I was and a Baptist I have

remained the past 28 years.

So, what my Presbyterian friends tell me is not true, that as long as you read the right books, you will become a Presbyterian.

Of course, I'm exaggerating and kidding, partly.

So, what exactly is it like, and if you could give a definition

of what it's like to receive a call to the pastorate from God?

Because obviously, I know that you're not a charismatic or a Pentecostal.

How is something like that laid on your heart divinely, where you are certain this

is from God?

Well, I think it's a combination of things, Chris.

When I think about the language of the Apostle Paul, when he talked about

someone desiring to do the work of an overseer, there is

often, I suppose, almost always, there's a

desire to begin with.

Now, in our Reformation history, there are two outstanding exceptions, both

John Knox and John Calvin.

There had to be recourse to a little arm twisting before they were willing to

engage in gospel ministry.

But I think in the case of most men, there is a desire to do the work of

preaching and teaching, there's a desire to shepherd a flock of people.

I think that there has to be, either on the part of your home church, or

depending on whether you're Presbyterian, a trainee of the ministry committee, there has to be a recognition of

fitness and encouragement, therefore, to go ahead and train.

That would be a second strand.

And then, at the end of it all, you have to have a call from a

local church.

And until that comes, then you, I think it would be perilous

to say that you are called.

You may sense a call, but that really is the final confirmation that

here is a church.

They've been looking for a pastor, they've been thinking, they've been praying, they've interviewed you, they've heard you,

they've assessed your gifts, they recognize the call of God in your life, they extend a call

to you, and you sense that, yeah, that's a good fit.

CBT I assume, and correct me if I'm wrong, if you are a member of a church before you're a

pastor, that church could plant a church from the ground up with you, could they not?

Could they not even start renting a building, and if they know that there's people in that

area who are Christians who have no local church that they can attach themselves to for

either distance or theological reasons, or there's lost people in an area that

have desired an interest in some way to visit a church, etc., is that an

appropriate way to start a church?

CBT Absolutely.

I think we have got freedom in this, and if a congregation wished

to plant a church in a particular area and recognized in one of their members a man who

had, you know, a man of proven character, a man who exercises gifts, a man that obviously had a heart for the

Lord, heart for people, heart for the Gospel, and they placed a primary responsibility for

the initial preaching and teaching in his hands, and yeah, absolutely.

CBT Great, and I'm going to give our email address if you'd like to join us on the air with a question, anything

involving the pastorate or the pastoral call, but specifically on the book that we are going to be discussing by

David Campbell, our guest today, Handle That New Call with Care, Accepting or Declining a

Call to a New Congregation.

Our email address is chrisarnson at gmail dot com.

That's chrisarnson at gmail dot com.

Please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside of the

USA.

Well, first of all, why did you feel compelled to write this book, Pastor Campbell?

Well, I went to my first

charge, which was Geneva Road Evangelical Baptist Church in Darlington, County Durham, England

in 1987.

In fact, Sunday 20th of

September 2015 was exactly 28 years to the

day that I started in Geneva Road in England.

So it's quite a memorable Sunday for me.

I was 26 years old, settled down,

was there for 14 years to 2001.

And in the summer of 2001, I got a call, I got a phone call

from a friend over here, Jim Renahan, who's the Dean of the Institute of Reformed Baptist

Studies in Escondido, California, a friend of many years standing.

He had been contacted by Grace Baptist Church.

Walter Chantry was thinking about retiring.

The elders were beginning to look for possible replacement for him.

They'd written letters to a number of different men asking for recommendations.

And one of the men who got a letter was my friend Jim Renahan.

And he called me, this is the last day of July 2001, asking if

I would be willing to be considered for the position.

I had been in Geneva Road for 14 years at that time.

I certainly wasn't unhappy.

There was nothing that was pushing me out.

But I did think for a number of reasons that it would be wise to at least consider.

And that started a process which lasted really a whole year.

I was contacted, there was a series of interviews.

My wife and I and our two girls came over in February of 2002 for a

10 -day visit, preaching both weekends.

And the weekend between March of that year, I was given a call.

And then I spent the most agonizing month of my life from the

March to the April 2002 wrestling with this decision whether to stay

where I was, whether I should go.

And I was shocked, Chris, that there were no books

to help me.

I have got lots of books, most ministers have got lots of books on every

dimension of the pastoral ministry, preaching, et cetera, et cetera.

And I couldn't even find a single chapter in one of those books that addressed the whole question of

what do you do when you're given a call to a new congregation?

I was staggered because there can be few ministers who don't, in the course of their ministries,

have to deal with this at some point or another.

Now, there is a book that I discovered later by a 19th century American Baptist called

Hezekiah Harvey called The Pastor.

And it's got a superb chapter in there.

I did have access to it in a somewhat modified form, and that was helpful, but

nothing of any great length.

The thing that I found most helpful, apart from the scriptures, the scriptures gave me good principle, obviously, the

foundational principles.

But the most important source in terms of men actually thinking this

through was Christian biography, ministerial biography.

And the love that I had for biography, starting at 21, never

left me, and I've always enjoyed reading biography.

And I found dipping into the biographies of men

who had been just where I was, having to wrestle with the

situation, okay?

Yeah, we had a little technical issue here.

Sorry about that.

That's okay.

Having to wrestle with the situation, struggling to know what to do as I

was struggling to know what to do, and reading their stories,

hearing about their struggles, thinking about the principles that they employ, the scriptures that they

used, that was a tremendous help to me.

And I thought to myself at the time, I would like someday to do an address on

this.

Maybe if I get invited to speak at a conference or a minister's fraternal, I would do something

like this.

And would illustrate it from Christian biography, from ministerial biography.

Well, of course, nothing happened for several years.

I forgot all about it to all intents and purposes.

It was just one of those things that maybe one day I'll get around to doing.

But I was approached by Day One.

They were launching this new series of books called the series subject is

ministering the master's way.

And I was asked to contribute.

And I suggested, well, why not do something on this very subject

of a new call?

I wanted to have the title as

staying put or moving on.

But because of the way the wording of all the other titles where I had to come up with something

different, hence the title, handle that new call with care.

Subtitle accepting or declining a call to a new congregation.

So that really forced my hand, sent me back to my

biographies.

And eventually out of that came this book,

which Day One very kindly published.

It's been out for a number of years now.

And I just want to read a commendation written by Dr. Ian D. Campbell of the Free Church of

Scotland, Isle of Lewis in the United Kingdom.

David Campbell has dealt with a theme that is among the most important in any minister's life.

He has written a book which will be of immense value in helping ministers recognize God's

leading in their lives.

And I know that you can get this book from one of our sponsors, the Cumberland Valley Bible Book

Service.

Their website is

cvbbs .com, C -V -B -B -S dot com.

And you can also go to the website of Grace Baptist Church of Carlisle, Pennsylvania, and ask them

more about it, gracebaptistcarlisle .org.

Grace Baptist Carlisle, which is C -A -R -L -I -S -L -E dot O -R -G.

And the phone number of Grace Baptist Church of Carlisle is 717 -249

-4912.

717 -249 -4912.

We're going to be going to a break right now.

If you have questions for Pastor David Campbell on his book, Handle That

New Call with Care, Accepting or Declining a Call to a New Congregation, if you

know any pastors, if you have a pastor, I hope you do have a pastor, give him a call.

Tell him to listen to the program at ironsharpensironradio .com, ironsharpensironradio .com.

And have him email us a question at chrisarnson at gmail .com,

chrisarnson at gmail .com.

And please give us your first name, give us your city and state of residence, and your country of residence

if you live outside of the USA.

Please only remain anonymous if this is a personal and private question that you're asking.

And we hope to hear from you after these messages.

Don't go away.

We'll be right back with Pastor David Campbell of Grace Baptist Church in Carlisle, Pennsylvania.

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Welcome back.

This is Chris Arms.

And if you've just tuned us in, our guest today is David Campbell.

He is the pastor of Grace Baptist Church in Carlisle, Pennsylvania.

And we are discussing his book, Handle That New Call With Care, Accepting or Declining a Call

to a New Congregation.

Our email address, if you have a question on that subject, is chrisarmsen at gmail .com.

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

We do have an email from Arlington, Texas, from a listener.

But before we go to that, I just have to announce that our friend, Pastor Bruce Bennett and the Word

of Truth Church in Farmingville, New York, invite you to join them at their sixth annual Bible

conference on October 2nd and 3rd.

This year's topic will be eschatology, a biblical examination of the four major end -time views.

They are pleased to have Pastors Chris Pandolfi, Pastor Dave Corson, Pastor Mark

Grimaldi, and Pastor Rich Jensen presenting one of the four views each.

The conference will have five sessions.

Session one will be on Friday, October 2nd, that's this Friday, at 7 p .m., as Pastor Chris

Pandolfi defends premillennial dispensationalism.

Session two will be at 10 a .m. on Saturday, as Pastor Dave Corson defends

historic premillennialism.

Session three will be at 1115 a .m., as Pastor Mark Grimaldi defends amillennialism,

lunch will be served after session three, and session four will begin at 130 p .m., as

Pastor Rich Jensen defends postmillennialism.

Dinner will be served at 545 and session five will start at 7 p .m. by

Anthony Uvinio hosting a roundtable discussion with all four pastors and audience

questions being fielded during the roundtable discussion.

The conference is absolutely free of charge and offerings are accepted.

Word of Truth Church is located at 1055 Portion Road in Farmingville, Long Island, New York,

and can be reached by calling 631 -806 -0614,

631 -806 -0614, or on the web at wotchurch

.com, wot, for Word of Truth, church .com, wotchurch

.com.

And we want to thank the Word of Truth Church in Farmingville, Long Island, New York, for being a sponsor of Iron Sharpens Iron.

Pastor David, we do have a question for you from Ken in Arlington, Texas.

He says, while there are certainly practical reasons for a church to call a pastor

and a pastor to accept a call, how do you balance that with the call of God?

Have there ever been situations you're aware of where what looked like a bad fit

practically was a good fit providentially?

Yeah, well, I think, for example, of Thomas Boston,

who at the time he was considering going to

Ettrick, which was his second charge, said something to the effect that

his health was so broken down that he looked and felt as if it was

more likely he was going to be translated to heaven than to the parish of Ettrick.

But in God's providence, his health was renewed and he had

sufficient strength to exercise a wonderful ministry.

I would say, yes, God does

take men who may seem unlikely candidates for a position,

but he speaks peace to their heart, he speaks peace to the hearts

of the congregation, there's a sense of the leading of God.

That, of course, is a whole other subject, and it

works.

Perhaps from a human point of view, initially, it might have seemed as if it was not going to work, but in

God's providence, it was clear that the guidance had been

correctly understood.

What would you view are the main reasons that a pastor or a pastor

-to -be should be reluctant to accept a call or

should absolutely refuse the call?

Well, reluctance, refusal, Chris, can be for a number of reasons.

We go back to the issue of health.

A man may come to the conclusion that this charge is going to put such

pressure on him health -wise and demands upon his time and strength that

had he been 20 years younger, great.

Like a church with a lot of problems that are already there, you mean?

Yes, or maybe the size of the church, any kind of factors like

that.

His family, I think, family considerations are very important, and he may,

thinking about his wife, thinking about his children, where they are spiritually and academically, he may

come to the conclusion that it's just not a good time to leave.

He needs to think very seriously about what kind of restrictions are going to be placed on him in

terms of what he's free to preach and to make sure that

the things that he believes he's going to have liberty to preach.

And that is obviously a big question if you are a confessional Calvinist

going into an evangelical church, which is a fine 13, 14 -point

evangelical statement of doctrine, but which is silent on issues like election,

final perseverance, irresistible grace, that the whole, I mean, you were talking

about your advertisement about this conference to talk about the millennial.

I mean, there's a hot potato if there ever was one.

What are your views on the last days and the last times?

If you are a convinced amillennialist, then probably it should

give you pause before accepting a call to a congregation of premillennial

dispensationalists.

All those kinds of things can be red lights that

say, you know, at least you need to stop and think very carefully before you go forward.

CB.

And what would be the reasons to be reluctant or refuse to leave where you already

are, primary ones?

Well, again, there can be a number of those two.

Many a man will be very reluctant to leave because who's going to take his

place?

Now, if there's, you know, if it's a larger congregation where there's more than one full -time

pastor and he's got a colleague who's going to be able to bear the burden of preaching and

teaching, that makes it much easier.

When my predecessor, Walter Chantry, retired, I said there was a two -month gap.

There was also a very experienced man, Craig Harris, who was here

as an assistant pastor that made it much easier for the transition.

But if there's no one, then that gives a man pause.

He may only have been there for a short time and for that reason may feel, I really need to

give more time to this, especially if, you know, for example, the congregation had had to wait for a pastor for several

years or it had had some very difficult experiences.

You've come as a settled ministry.

Things are going well.

You've only been there four or five years.

It's maybe not the best time to think about going.

Problems, yes, problems can be a reason for leaving.

You've tried your best.

They're intractable.

You just can't make progress.

It's wearing you out.

It may be that in that situation it's time to go.

Alternatively, the problems may be the very reason why you need to stay.

I think of Paul saying to Titus, why did Paul leave Titus in Crete?

Because there were a number of things they had to get sorted out.

There were false teachers he needed to challenge.

There were elders he needed to appoint.

There were things that needed to be taught to various groups within the church.

Similarly, a man may receive a call, but as he looks at it, there are things that need to get

done.

He really can't in good conscience leave until some of these things are at least.

On address.

So those kind of things, Chris.

Now for the reverse, give us some of the primary reasons why somebody should

leave where they are and receive a call.

Obviously, there's going to be varieties of answers because sometimes it's absolutely necessary for some reason or another.

Sometimes it's just a matter of a conviction that the pastor being called comes to.

As you say, there's a whole variety of reasons.

He may feel that it's good for the congregation.

He's maybe been there 10, 15, 20 years.

It's time for a fresh voice.

He himself, I like to think of my predecessor,

Walter Tantry, as a long distance runner.

I think other men are middle distance runners, but when they've been in a

situation for 10, 15 years, they need a break and to

begin again somewhere where they can be fresh and with

renewed vision and energy.

Sometimes a health situation really makes a change necessary.

That's something that's well documented.

Intractable problems.

I mentioned those changing the situation doctrinally in a congregation where

now you no longer have the freedom to preach and teach the Word of God in the way that you did when you

went.

Or you may have changed.

Or you may have changed and you can no longer in good conscience subscribe to the

confession of faith.

As an honourable man, you're not going to directly preach against it.

If it's a really big issue and you feel, I really need to

have the liberty to preach this.

That's certainly the case where someone who has been of Arminian convictions comes to

embrace Calvinism and his church is just not sympathetic to it.

So what does he do?

Well, he really has to move on.

So, yes, all kinds of different reasons and the

whole question of sowing and reaping.

A man may have sown the good seed of the Word of God.

He may have seen very little in terms of conversion.

What does God do?

Well, often it's someone else who reaps.

And so God moves a man on to another sphere, bring someone after him who reaps where he

has sown.

That may be a more responsible position.

Here's a younger man who's obviously gifted, who's been faithful over a number

of years in his first pastorate and a wider sphere of service opens up for

him.

And here's an opportunity for him to exercise his gifts in a

wider sphere than would be the case.

And again, with the counsel of other men and you can see why

that is the kind of situation that will often lead to the acceptance of a call to another

congregation.

And as your chapter title reads, who

is ultimately to decide?

Well, I think there's no question as to how that

should be answered.

Ultimately, the Lord Jesus Christ, who is the head of the

church, is the one who must decide.

It is he who gives pastors and teachers.

A church that is looking for a pastor, what does it do?

It prays to the Lord Jesus, asking him.

And a man must ask, am I being called by the Lord Jesus to

move to this?

Just as they're asking the Lord, is this the man for whom we have been praying?

And obviously, we don't expect to hear voices from heaven.

We don't expect to have visions.

But we do believe, I certainly believe that the Lord has been very active in that situation,

either saying to a man, no, you stay where you are, or moving on.

But yes, he is the head of the church.

He's the one who fits men to situations.

It's his leading that we need to seek.

And when we're persuaded of it, it is his leading that we need to follow.

Tell me what you speak about, or write about, I should say, in your book, in the chapter on decision

time.

Chris.

Decision time.

A whole lot of things, actually, Chris.

One of the things is be sensitive.

There are horror stories out there of the way in which men have

accepted a call to another church.

It's only then that their congregation becomes wise to what's going on.

Love to your flock would suggest, of course, there's different ways in which it can be done.

But love to your flock would indicate that when the decision has been made, or

as it's being made, that there's a concern for their

well -being.

But another part of it is, interestingly enough, having the courage to

admit you were wrong and reverse your decision.

There's a story in here, I think it's actually from

Dr. James Henley Thornwell, if my memory serves me right, some distinguished

American 19th century reformed theologian who had to

acknowledge that the decision he had made was wrong, and that

it was necessary then for him to, it was either right, he was either Thornwell himself or

someone to whom he was writing, can't remember quite which, but basically, you know, if you make a

decision, you make it on the basis of the amount of light that you have, but you may

come to the conclusion that actually, no, something else comes to light,

it wasn't the best decision.

What do you do?

Well, do you just forge ahead with it anyway?

No, follow your convictions and say, I've got to step down.

Equally, you may decline a call and are so unsettled about it

that you eventually have to say, if it's possible to reverse

it, I will accept it if you're still willing to have me.

Now, this kind of goes back a few steps to when we were talking about when

you should leave a church.

Should a pastor always leave a church if there's a considerable number of people who are

extremely unhappy with that pastor for one reason or another, even if they are a minority,

but they are a considerable number?

How do you, obviously, case -by -case situations will probably change an answer, but

just your.

Thoughts on that situation?

I think a case -by -case resolution of that is exactly

right, Chris.

Because God might drive the people unhappy out, especially if they are the

ones in the wrong.

Yes.

It may be that in God's providence, if you stay the course, some of them will leave,

some of them will change their minds, some of your enemies will become your friends.

But it's also the case that they may make your life so

miserable that you have to leave.

I think that it's important that a man is thinking not about his own comfort.

I always go back to Jeremiah.

Whenever I think of good things hard, I go back to Jeremiah and the 40 years of

ministry that he had.

And I mean, that's amazing, the fortitude that he showed in beginning to end.

Things were hard.

Things have never been that hard for me.

I think the question that a man always ought to ask is, what is best for the church?

What's in the church's highest interest?

And sometimes for the sake of unity, it may be best for

him to leave in the hope that the church will be able to call someone around whom they will be

much more united than they have been around that man himself.

But I mean, these are very broad statements and it is.

A case -by -case situation, as you say.

And if you could prepare some of our pastors and pastors to be by

addressing a bit your chapter, what will a change be like?

What will a change be like?

Well,.

There is first of all, the whole matter of leaving.

And that will vary according to the

relationship that you've had.

And if you read the book, which is full of stories of men

who've had to go through that kind of thing.

You have Thomas Chalmers leaving Colmania in Fife, and it just broke his heart.

Another man, Adam Forman, would go sometimes and stand on the shore,

look across the water to the area where he used to be,

always with wistful feelings, connection to it.

Other times a man will be glad to go because things have so broken down.

When he's gone, he'll just thank the Lord that it's over.

Going to a new situation, I think what the book tries to do with a

variety of real life case situations is to show

that there often are difficulties.

I had a friend who was 40 years my senior when I was at the Pre

-Church of Scotland College.

My minister, he was in his late 60s when I was in my early 20s, and he had had

a number of pastures and some rough experiences.

He used to say to me often, David, where you've got people, you've got problems.

And you go from one congregation to another, you've got to be, there's no point being naive.

You've got to exchange one set of problems for another set of problems because where you've got people, you've got problems.

And so you may go and you may find that there are things that you didn't anticipate.

You may have problems with the building.

You have all kinds of issues.

Alternatively, you may go and the Lord will do wonderful things through

your ministry.

I think what's good is to think about a couple of things.

When you think about Paul accepting the Macedonian call to go

over into Macedonia, it's hardly there before

he and Silas have been beaten and they're in jail.

And that was rough.

And you think, well, did they make a mistake?

Well, obviously they didn't make a mistake.

So you gather from that, that the very fact that things are rough, things are hard, that is no

infallible sign that you've made a mistake.

There are going to be trials, there are going to be problems.

So that's helpful.

And the other thing about that incident is to think of what came of it.

The converts, the churches that were planted, the inspired letters that were written to

those churches, the inspired account of that whole incident in the

book of Acts, the Philippian jailer.

How many times has the question, what must I do to be saved, been preached on?

How many thousands and tens of thousands of conversions and the apostolic

letters and the fruit that has borne and will continue to bear till the end of time, all

out of a response to that Macedonian call.

Yes, as you look forward, be realistic.

There are going to be problems, there are going to be trials, but who can tell

what fruit will be born, what blessing will come to the end of time itself from

the good work that you're enabled to do.

You go forward with faith, trusting that as the scriptures say, our

labor in the Lord is not in vain.

Amen.

And I just want to let our listeners know that Pastor Campbell will be coming back

to Iron Sharpens Iron, God willing, on Thursday the 29th

of October, just a couple of days before Reformation Day, and he's going to be

speaking on John Knox.

What can you briefly tell us about John Knox before you go today, Pastor Campbell, because I know you can't be on with us for the second

hour as we were hoping.

Oh, John Knox is my number one Scottish hero.

He's probably.

Scotland's greatest churchman.

I had the privilege of writing a short biography called With John Knox,

published also by Day One, which was able to combine an introductory

study of his life, account of his life, with photographs of all the places

associated with John Knox so that you can read the story and visit the

places.

And if you can't visit the places, you can look at the photographs and see

whereabouts he was born, where he ministered,.

All kinds of things like that.

And what are some of the other books that you've written so we can have you back on to address all of them eventually, God

permitting, in your schedule.

Permitting?

Well, Day One has another series called Opening Up.

John Knox is published by Day One.

All the books are published by Day One.

John Knox was in the Travel Guide series.

There's an Opening Up series, which is basic introductory studies of books of the Bible.

I was privileged to do one on Titus, and then a few years later, opening up

Galatians.

If you're looking for first rung of the ladder, if you like,

introduction to these books, they've got questions, so they're helpful for Bible studies.

The fifth book is one, curiously enough, I didn't actually have to write,

which may seem strange, but there was a lady in our congregation, Sarah Leone at the time, who

was taking the videos of our services and from them, transcribing some of the pulpit prayers,

printing them out and using them herself, giving them to others.

Eventually, she gathered together a whole selection of them, put them into different categories,

and offered them to Day One.

They agreed to publish them.

I actually find it very difficult to even read my own prayers in the book,

but they were willing to do it.

I was willing to allow them to do it if it would do any good.

I am encouraged that people do use the book, they use the prayers.

I think it's called, it is called, I shouldn't know the name of the

book, it's called Heart Cries to Heaven.

Great title.

Well, I know that your website is gracebaptistcarlisle .org,

gracebaptistcarlisle .org, and the phone number of Grace Baptist Church in Carlisle

is 717 -249 -4912, 717 -249 -4912.

We're going to be, in our second hour, discussing some interesting topics with

Dennis Swanson, the former Vice President of the Master Seminary, that really dovetail

perfectly with the subject that we just addressed with Pastor Campbell, Five Mistakes Churches Make Looking for a

Pastor, and Five Mistakes Pastors Make Looking for a Church.

Pastor David Campbell, we thank you so much for being our guest for the first hour, and we look forward to

having you back very soon, brother.

Thank you very much, Chris.

It's been a pleasure, and I look forward to coming back, too.

And if you have any questions for Dennis Swanson coming up on the Mistakes Churches Make Looking for

a Pastor and the Mistakes Pastors Make Looking for a Church, you can send them to us by email

at chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name, your city and state, your country of residence if you live outside the USA,

and please give us at least your first name unless you must remain anonymous due to a personal and private

matter.

We look forward to hearing from you after these messages, so don't go away.

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Well, ladies and gentlemen, we are not going to have our second guest today.

We have no idea where he is.

He was in flight earlier this morning and said that he was going to land with

ample time to do the show.

This was an unexpected trip that he was going on, but obviously God had different plans than our

guest did, so perhaps we'll have him back on in the future.

But we will now play something from the best of Iron Sharpens Iron.

Here is an interview with Dr. Peter Lilback of Westminster Theological Seminary on

George Washington's sacred fire.

We hope you enjoy something from the treasure trove of the best of Iron Sharpens Iron.

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio

platform on which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues

facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron, so one

man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, quote, we are cautioned to take heed whom we

converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another

wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour, and we hope to hear

from you, the listener, with your own questions.

Now here's our host, Chris Arnzen.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth,

listening via live streaming.

This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron, wishing you all a happy Friday

on this day before 4th of July weekend, Friday, July 3rd, 2015.

And are you down in the dumps because of recent events in regard to the

Supreme Court decision on same -sex marriage?

Are you feeling a little bit less than patriotic?

Are you pessimistic about our future?

Well, let's start 4th of July weekend with a good dose of patriotism, and I'm so

delighted that I have for the very first time as a guest on Iron Sharpens Iron, Dr. Peter

Lilback, who is Professor of Historical Theology and President of

Westminster Theological Seminary in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania.

And today we're talking about his monumental 1208 -page work, George

Washington's Sacred Fire.

And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you to Iron Sharpens Iron for the very first time, Dr. Peter

Lilback.

Chris, thank you so much.

What a wonderful life and faith of George

Washington.

It's great to be with all your listeners.

Yes, and it's great to have you.

I did, as you recall, years ago when Iron Sharpens Iron ran between

2006 and 2011, before I went on a four -year hiatus,

I did try a couple of times to get you on the program, and providentially, it just didn't work out those couple of

times.

Thankfully, a very opportune and timely day that we have

to interview you on the day before Independence Day weekend, or I guess I should say it's the first day of

Independence Day weekend.

But first of all, tell our listeners briefly something about Westminster Theological Seminary.

Some of our listeners may be unaware of that institution, but most of them are because most of my

listeners are more than likely Reformed in their theology.

But for those of my listeners who are unfamiliar with Westminster, tell us briefly something about that.

Well, it's great to tell folks about the seminary I serve.

It started in 1929.

It grew.

I was convinced that with the reorganization of the

work, theology,

people thought he was pretty

radical.

As we look back now, some 86, 87 years, we realized he was absolutely right

on the money.

So Westminster was started by Machen, with five or six of the faculty

members from the faculty of Princeton.

We took the name Westminster for our theology.

It's the

building of theology based

upon theology that we build on.

Westminster through the years has had many significant contributions to the church.

One of the things that we're especially known for is

sometimes called worldview analysis today.

That was Dr. Van Til.

We still require our students to learn the Bible

and

rich revelation

of biblical counseling.

Counseling that doesn't ask you to just become a human being.

The ability to come to someone who recognizes you as a human being, who's made one

who has...

So biblical counseling, we teach

to understand how to

reform.

We have students from all around the world.

We have over 600 students studying with us, doing master's and doctoral level studies.

And they become leaders all around the world.

Over 100 denominations have been with us.

And I think probably 50 or 60 countries we've lost track now, have come and gone in the last 20

years from the seminary.

So it's the Bible

who preached the whole counsel of God to advance the kingdom of Christ worldwide.

Well, somebody sends their greetings to you.

The innkeeper of the 19th century manse that is the new home

of Iron Sharpens Iron.

This program is broadcasting live from the 19th century parsonage of

a local historic figure here in Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, George Norcross, who was a Presbyterian

pastor.

In fact, he was the pastor of the Second Presbyterian Church here in Carlisle in the late 1800s and

early 1900s.

And the current owner of this manse, the old manse as we call it around here,

Albert Stever, who just celebrated the 50th anniversary of his

graduation from Westminster.

He and his wife, Dottie Stever, send their greetings to you.

And I actually invited Al to be a co -host with me today, but he was unable to

due to prior commitments.

But Al Stever, the Reverend Al Stever is a retired Orthodox Presbyterian pastor.

And he sends his greetings to you.

That's great.

I had the joy.

Oh, great.

We celebrated his 50th.

The connection of your...

Yes, I'm delighted about it too.

And it was more than fascinating to me to discover this after moving in here.

And I'm so delighted to be a part of this community here now.

Now, this book, which is obviously an enormous labor of love on your part,

1 ,208 pages long.

The book has a very captivating title, George Washington's Sacred Fire.

Almost sounds like George Washington may have been a precursor to the Pentecostal movement with a title like that.

But tell us why the title, George Washington's Sacred Fire?

Well, it's interesting that George

Washington,

to

live up

to its

challenge, the

wildfire

of liberty, like the

French Revolution that burns out of control.

No, it's a gift from God.

It's holy.

And he saw Republican liberty as a form of conscious following of

transcendent laws.

The freedom was grounded in God.

And he said, Americans, you need to understand this experiment is in your hands.

And whether it survives or not is up to you.

And so I make

himself usually something

that just like people were

knocking and attacking and denying and basically saying he was not a religious man.

In fact, he

was a

deist,

which is in

the people who knew.

And of course, a deist, as you did explain a little bit about what that is,

a deist basically makes God into a celestial spectator that he created the world,

the universe, set it in motion, and basically just watches and doesn't have any intimate personal

relationship with what's happening, correct?

That's exactly right.

So

you

could

think of

a fully

divine, fully human and

liberated in just one

of the

mythology.

And I like to

respond by saying, well, Johnny Cochran is not my favorite attorney.

No, Jay Simpson is not the best person ever to be on trial.

But Johnny Cochran had a great line.

If it doesn't fit, you must acquit.

The glove of deism.

And let's see if we can make it fit on Washington's large hand.

There's no providence.

Well, guess what?

That's Washington's favorite theological word.

60 times or something like that.

And I'm not talking about Providence, Rhode Island.

I've counted them all.

They're all theological.

And it was his favorite doctrine.

Secondly, did he believe in prayer?

There are over 100 prayers in Washington's own handwriting in his letters.

There's as short as a sentence and some are like two or three paragraphs long.

He was, in fact, someone who believed in prayer.

Did he reject clergy?

No, he didn't.

He said that the clergy were very important.

He required that there be chaplains in his army, even when money was very.

According to his record, 100 pass.

In fact, he was a church warden.

The blessed religion revealed in the

word of God will remain an eternal monument that human nature can, by its

depravity, destroy the very best of institutions.

Well, he sounds like a Presbyterian minister when he says that.

He called the Bible the word eternal.

Well, you can't get more orthodox about the scripture.

On top of that, in appendix two of Sacred Fire, I indicate over 200 biblical

phrases, allusions, or citations that come out of Washington's writings.

And I know I didn't get them all.

Those are the ones that were really obvious as I was working through it.

And I actually identify the passage and the place where he uses it.

One of my favorite examples of this is that there are a couple times he writes a letter.

One of them is to the Marquis de Lafayette, and I've forgotten who the other one is.

But in one paragraph, there are literally seven to nine different biblical

allusions in one paragraph.

Now, Washington didn't have a strong concordance when he was writing the Bible on his

desk or just from his own memory.

I'd like to give your listeners a homework assignment.

Nine different passages of the Bible, and it can't be a Bible comment.

Talk about life.

I dare you to do it.

To be able to do that, you have to be, you need to know the Bible right down to your fingertips.

Uh -huh.

This is the guy who really...

The glove doesn't even...

Christ, was Jesus just a good man?

No, he calls him...

That's his praise.

He's divine.

Happy nation.

Unless it imitates the divine author...

Mercy to do

justice...

But, you know, what's interesting is that he says there's three things America needs.

One, be your love.

This specific...

Someone who is...

He said, unless we have those qualities of humility like Jesus Christ,

we'll never be a happy nation.

These were his official words that he...

General at the end, he signed a...

That he wrote, he says, I now make it my earnest prayer for you.

Then he goes on and he includes then...

Here's the glove of Jesus.

Does he reject providence?

No.

His favorite doctrine.

Does he reject prayer?

There's over 100 prayers.

Does he reject clergy?

No.

50 were in his home and 50 letters written.

Does he reject the Bible?

No.

He calls it the word of God that's eternal.

A revelation.

And he cites it over 200 times.

And then finally, he is the one who...

We can no longer call Washington a deist.

It is a lie.

If Washington is speaking himself...

What he understood to be a generally Christian public.

I want to give our email address here, if you are listening and you have a question for Dr. Peter Lilback on

the life and faith of George Washington, the father of our country as he

is known.

The email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

This is a live broadcast, so please send your emails as soon as you can.

Chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

How would you respond to the argument that George Washington was just speaking in the

reverent language of common in his day?

You have people even like Benjamin Franklin and Thomas Jefferson who would be far to the left

of Washington, but in comparison to today's world would have been arch fundamentalists

if they were alive today.

But you have people just using this reverent, very deeply reverent and

religious language about God and about Christ, and yet you had someone like Thomas

Jefferson having a version of the Bible where he removed all the miraculous occurrences

and so on.

So how would you describe or answer that question, I should say?

Was he just merely mimicking the popular language of the day in reference to God?

Trying to get votes and sound religious, which seems to be the practice today.

Much of what Washington, which

not just in correspondence,

it reflects, and sometimes he does it in public

situations, really unnecessary.

And he does it, it's amazing.

I think 30 different leaders throughout his

life simply use

his language that reflects a belief

in eternal life, a belief in the work of God in history.

The bottom line is,

in private and public, this is

actually written to a minister.

He says, there is no man who has a more commitment of faith and trust in the

Almighty than me.

I think that's quite a statement.

Oh yeah.

He's saying, this is a private letter to a minister, and he says, I have a deeper faith.

And you know, the reason he had to say this is, when he was at Valley Forge, remember, Congress had

fled Philadelphia.

They had never supplied him adequately.

The British now control the capital city, and Washington was freezing in the cold at Valley

Forge.

He didn't have anything.

And that's the point.

The reason that he was able to continue,

and God will stand with

justice, supply the need of his people

that I love to appeal to.

When people come with me, and I love to take them in

camp as part of the army.

Muhlenberg was actually a Lutheran minister.

He's the man who famously was preaching on Ecclesiastes, where it says there's a time for war and

a time for peace.

And he opened up his Genevan robe as he was preaching.

And there, under his preaching robe, he had on a cotton hat.

And he said, this is to march the men off

from church to go to battle.

I wondered if you were a wife, and I said, you've got to go to church this time.

You never go.

And all of a sudden, he goes, and off he goes to war.

Well, anyway, here's this Muhlenberg, General Muhlenberg at Valley Forge.

His father, Henry Melchior Muhlenberg, was a Lutheran minister.

He says, I was in camp.

He lived in Trapp, Pennsylvania, just a few miles away from Valley Forge.

Because his son was an officer, he was able to get in to visit.

And he wrote, George Washington came to the camp.

And he told his men to put away.

And he says, this is the man who only talks it.

He is preaching the gospel.

That's quite an amazing thing for a missionary, by calling on

his men as he did in

some of his general orders.

While you're becoming, he wanted his men

to put their faith in Christ.

Amen.

Now, every child, well, actually, I don't know if every child today knows this story.

But when I was a child, and I'm sure when you were a child, you heard the story about George

Washington being so honest that when he chopped down his father's favorite cherry tree, and his

father was upset, his father had to ask him about it.

And George, in his honesty, admitted that he chopped it down.

Now, obviously, legends like that sometimes come from a

reality.

And was there something about his honesty that seemed above and beyond the ordinary man in that day

where that legend would come from such a person?

Washington, he does

say, I recognize that.

But now, while that was an important thing, that doesn't talk about that.

Number one, we know George Washington had an ax.

And we know also that he grew cherry trees on his estate because he mentioned them.

Now, how do we get the story?

Well, it actually comes to us from an Anglican minister by the name of Nathan

Weems.

He's sometimes called Parsons.

And he actually was someone who Washington knew personally.

And Washington actually endorsed one of his books, gave him a very high endorsement.

So he heard him preach.

He knew his writings.

And according to Parsons, George Washington has never gone out

of print since the beginning.

It was known by Abraham Lincoln.

It's still in print to this day.

It's the bestseller for 100 years on Washington's life.

He was from that area.

And according to him, he went around and interviewed all the families that knew Washington.

And he asked young George.

None of us knew.

Everybody wants to know about him.

And I'm writing a book.

Tell me some of the stories.

What by the people that knew George Washington and the families he was

growing up from that

has picked up.

Now, what is interesting is that their ability to show that the story was

circulating, even in the early years of the American

independency, because there was a very special kind of tile, excuse me, porcelain, I should say, that

was being made in Germany.

And there was a special vase that was made of this very unique porcelain that's only made for a few years

in Germany.

They can date it as experts.

And it has a cherry tree, 1876, and the

letters GW on it.

It's a cherry tree.

And George Washington made it all the way to Europe very early after American independence in

the 1780s.

It wasn't when Washington was now the president when someone made it up.

But there's actually evidence that had been picked up probably by the Hessian soldiers.

Remember, a number of German soldiers came, countered Washington, and he became recognized as one of the

great military.

He was commemorated in Germany.

And there's evidence for that.

So I actually include that in the book and my sources, if anybody's interested.

We're going to be going to a break right now.

If you have a question for Dr. Pete Littleback on George Washington, his life and faith,

please email us at chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

That's C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail

.com.

When you email us, please give at least your first name and the city and state from where you are writing.

And we look forward to hearing from you and your questions for Dr. Pete Littleback after these messages.

So don't go away.

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Welcome back.

This is Chris Zarnes, and if you've just tuned in to Iron Sharpens Iron, our guest today is Dr. Peter Lilback, who is

professor of historical theology and president of Westminster Theological Seminary in

Philadelphia, Pennsylvania.

And before I forget, let me give their website.

It's wts .edu.

Wts for Westminster Theological Seminary dot edu.

And we are discussing George Washington's Sacred Fire, the book, the 1 ,208 -page

monumental work by Dr. Pete Lilback.

And before we even go into our audience questions, how long did it take you to write this 1 ,200 -page

massive monumental work?

Well, let's

say I never

knew I'd storybooks for

the

ACLU

came to town

and said, a

week later is the weekly newspaper, and

they criticized my lack of knowledge.

And I thought, my goodness, maybe I'm wrong.

I'm not an American church historian.

I did Reformation, my field.

And so I thought, well, I better know what I'm talking about, never talk about this subject again until

I'd researched it.

So it became a hobby out of sheer embarrassment.

Fell in love with it.

And early on, came across the debate on Washington and started to pursue him.

So 20 years later, after note cards and study leaves and on and off, you know, a hobby, don't do it

all the time, but I put a lot of energy in.

I got a call from one of the staff members of Dr. James Kennedy at Coral Ridge Presbyterian.

And that was amazing.

He said to his staff, if you can get your book done this year, I will buy 19 ,000

copies for my ministry.

Wow.

I was stunned.

The book was not even written.

He just knew my research and my theme.

And he said, if you get it, well, that meant I had to get it done.

So for the next nine months, from about 11 o 'clock at night to two in the morning, almost

every day, every night, I should say, I just was in there cranking out those notes, trying to get the book done.

By God's grace, it got done.

So we published 25 ,000 of them and 19 went and we sold them out for the next two or

three years.

And they were just kind of about running out.

And we thought, well, I guess that's the end of that.

What a wonderful story.

And then that's when some guy named Glenn Beck got a hold of the book.

He started telling his folks on his national television radio program, every American needs to read

this book.

And believe it or not, it shot up to be the number one bestselling book on the Amazon book list for a week.

It's an extraordinary success.

What can I say?

It was a hobby for 20 years.

And it took me nine months to write it.

But I actually thought before all that first invitation came along, I would probably just

have a lot of note cards and files that I would pass on to my children.

And they'd throw them away.

And I'd just research and have fun.

There it is.

It's a book.

Amen.

And let me say with all respect to Glenn Beck, I hope that he one day embraces the faith of George

Washington, as he did enthusiastically embrace your book.

Some of our listeners may not be aware that he is a Mormon, and we hope that one day he comes to faith in the true living God.

But before I go on to a couple of our audience questions, one of

the controversies, as you are fully aware, that surrounds George Washington is the fact that he was a

member of the Masonic Lodge.

And my very dear friend, John Otis, who happens to be a Presbyterian minister,

wrote a really phenomenal work.

In fact, it's the largest book critiquing the Masonic Lodge from a Christian

perspective in print, unveiling Freemasonry's idolatry.

And so this seems to be an incompatible thing with Christianity

membership in the Masonic Lodge.

How do you explain the fact that George Washington was a member of this lodge?

Well, I think it's an excellent question.

And I just

simply said

it's impossible that he could have been.

But then I started doing some more research, and I found some interesting things.

The man who

did so much.

Wait a second.

Why would a gospel man be?

What's going on here?

It didn't make any sense.

And well, I started doing Athenaeum.

It's where most of George Washington's personal library ended up

residing.

It's a long story how it got there.

This library was given permission to do research there.

And as I did, I came across sermons that

had bound together.

They were not public except him.

He had, according to the family tradition, that every Sabbath afternoon to

Martha.

That was the way they would celebrate the afternoon.

They would return.

And so he had bound them together.

He called them, and they had miscellaneous sermons.

And there are multiple volumes, maybe five or six of these.

And one of them he called his Masonic sermons.

And I said, what in the world is that?

Masonic sermons?

I started opening them up.

And lo and behold, I discovered it was the practice of the Masonic order in

early colonial America and into the Washington era on St. John's Day to have one of the

leading ministers of the area to come in and preach the gospel of the

Masonic order.

In fact, one of the Presbyterian ministers that a lot of our men love to this day, Samuel Miller, used to preach Masonic

sermons.

That was part of his regular preaching.

And let me tell you, he was as orthodox and faithful as they come.

And so I thought, what in the world is this all about?

I've got to start reading this.

And so one of the things I did is I went back.

I got a Masonic encyclopedia.

And I discovered we as

Masons must recognize that wherever Christianity goes, it evangelizes and it

Christianizes.

And we must admit there is a form of the Masonic order that calls themselves Christian Masons.

Now, we don't see ourselves as Christians in this tradition, but they exist.

I thought, well, that's fascinating.

They admit that.

And then I went a little bit further.

This collection of

preaching in the midst of my sermon reminds you of what the

bylaws of our Masonic order tells us.

Well, we are Christian Masons.

And then he quotes the bylaws.

It says, because we are Christian Masons, no stupid atheist or deist may be a

member of our fraternity.

Now, I'm quoting now.

If there's any atheist or deist out there, I didn't call you stupid.

That's another debate for another day.

That's right out of the bylaws.

They said you can't be a deist or an atheist to be a member because we believe atheism is stupid.

And then I went a little bit further and I started looking at some of the biblical preaching.

And here's one of my favorites.

There was a minister who was preaching in one of the Masonic sermons.

It went like this.

Some of you think you're going to get into heaven because you have worn, you're

in the Lutheran tradition, but that won't get you into heaven.

Some of you think you're going to get into heaven because you've worn the robe of John Calvin.

That's not going to get you into heaven.

Some of you think you're going to get into heaven because you've worn the robe of Saint Augustine.

But Augustinians aren't going to get to heaven because of being an Augustinian.

Some of you think you're going to get into heaven because you've worn the apron of a Mason.

I assure you, no Masonic apron is going to get you into heaven.

If you want to get into heaven, you must be clothed in the righteousness of Jesus Christ

received by faith.

Amen.

And I said,

preached his library that he personally collected and the answer is yes.

So I want to say, I'm not a Mason.

I've never been a Mason.

I don't intend to become a Mason and I don't, I recognize the Masonic

order can in fact be absolutely full Christianity.

Masonry now of John Wanamaker.

Wanamaker was one of the great America young

businessman in Philadelphia.

He started the Wanamaker's department stores and he started the Sunday breakfast mission and many other

Sunday men of his day.

You want to become a community, you need to read the Bible.

As a Wanamaker, he used to close the curtains on

his window on Sunday so he wouldn't be tempted to do window shopping on the Lord's day.

And then he said, you should become a Mason.

I don't know what to tell you about that, but this is part of the history.

I discovered that there is

historical contextual analysis of the Masonic and the

colonial era in America that did not demand that you rejected the Christian faith.

I mentioned Parson Weems, who was known as an evangelical

analysis and moral character of Washington.

He was an active member.

So do what you will.

I don't recommend anybody to do it, but that's part of the story.

So therefore, my point is that being a Mason at that time in history did not prove you

were a deist or a non -Christian.

We have a listener, Calvin in Fayetteville, North Carolina, who wants

to know how George Washington viewed slavery in light of Scripture.

Obviously, that's even more of a controversial issue than the Masonic Lodge is, and it is brought up very

often today, especially by liberals.

So if you could comment on that.

He had a seductive life, as we know,

and he had known slaves until the day he died.

Virginia slaves.

He mentions one slave that's giving him problems.

He says, take him back to the Caribbean and sell him

for maybe some rub.

I want to get rid of him.

Your heart breaks when you read about that because he's hidden.

But you know, it was as if something happened.

America began to

realize the Intolerable Act.

The decision was made by the Virginians that they would no longer.

Now, that was not the first step.

And I think there was a moral conflict that began to emerge in the minds of several

of the leaders.

We don't want to be slaves.

Why is it that we have slaves?

The Golden Rule began to press in.

Do unto others as you have them do unto you.

We don't want to be slaves.

Why do we have slaves?

Now, that was a moral struggle.

It was endemic.

It was culturized.

It was accepted.

But then what happens is that after the Revolution, the traveling

Methodist ministers stop in to visit George Washington.

And when they, the bishops of the church, as they

come in, and

now that you are the

Methodist bishops, that this is

his home, said, I think it's wrong.

Amen.

How do we, and he began

to eventually phase out because

at the time when he wasn't, he

was

a private, but

I want you to know, he admitted at that point.

Now, Washington continued to have slaves as we go on from that point, even

on that, if he gets to the end of his life, if

he's thinking about his life and what he's done and the fact that he believes he's going to meet his

maker and give an account for his life, he began to wrestle with this.

And in his will, he said, I, upon my death,

intend to free every slave,

my body.

And they get provide him.

During that made a commitment.

And he actually began to train them in trade.

They began to learn skills that they would need upon the ending of their life.

What is interesting is that as we look at Washington's life, we see a man who is

begins to realize and begins

to, Washington is the only slave

on his own initiative that America has ever had.

Another president who had slaves were forced to end them at

the end of

our general.

Amen.

So even where he's the most flawed, he is a man who is showing integrity and beginning to

show the way even admire him.

Many of his life, he actually began to have an attitude.

And we're going to have to stop that rerun right here of our interview with Dr.

Peter Lilbeck of Westminster Theological Seminary in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania.

That was our interview on George Washington's Sacred Fire, the book that Peter Lilbeck

wrote in tribute of the first president of the United States of America.

And we hope that you look up that MP3 on the archive of Iron

Sharpens Iron Radio and listen to it in its entirety.

We had about 12 minutes to go before the end of that broadcast.

So you can go to ironsharpensironradio .com, ironsharpensironradio .com and

go to the podcast archive in the top right corner and click on that.

And you can type in the, actually you could type in the search bar on the top right,

L -I -L -L -B -A -C -K.

That's Peter Lilbeck's last name, L -I -L -L -B -A -C -K.

And you can hear this broadcast in its entirety.

We want to thank everybody who listened today.

We are so sorry that our second guest was unavailable and we hope that he is well.

Perhaps you should say a prayer about that.

We hope that you tune in tomorrow as Deckard Stevens will be our guest talking about his trials

coping with cancer and how the book of Job enabled him to do that.

And we want you to all always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far, far greater savior than you are a

sinner.

God bless and we look forward to receiving your questions tomorrow on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.