December 5, 2016 Show with Lyndon Unger on “Addressing the Dressing: Modesty in the Bible” AND “The New Apostolic Reformation Examined”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania. It's iron sharpens iron a radio platform on which pastors Christian scholars and theologians Address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron. So one man sharpens another. Matthew Henry said that in this passage quote we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and Directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour. And we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions. Now, here's our host.

Chris good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania. And the rest of humanity Living on the planet earth who are listening via live streaming. This is Chris Arns in your host of iron sharpens iron. Wishing you all happy Monday on this fifth day of December 2016 and I am delighted to have a guest on the program for the very first time that a number of my Listeners were urging me to interview and I began to Scratch my head wondering if I should interview as a thoroughgoing five-point Calvinist whether I should interview a Mennonite.

But it was very interested. Pleasantly surprised to see how many Reformed people theologically reformed Christians seem to be blessed and benefited by the writing of my guest Lyndon Unger aka the Menno Knight.

That's MENNO KNIGHT. He is a Mennonite pastor and blogger at the cripple gate. Calm and watch your life and Doctrine closely, which is a another one of his blogs which could be found at Menno Knight with a K.

Menno KNIGHT. .wordpress .com. And today we are discussing two different issues. We have our guest on when an ogre hunger for the full two hours and the first hour. We are addressing the dressing Modesty in the Bible and the second hour.

We are going to discuss the new Apostolic Reformation, but it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time to iron sharpens iron. Lyndon Unger. It's a pleasure to be with you. It's a pleasure to have you on the program.

Mennonite Identity, Reformed Theology, and the Meaning of Anabaptist History

Well, uh, let's give some background to your being a Mennonite because Obviously just like many other branches of Christendom you have. You have varieties of those different branches like not all theologically reformed Christians are alike.

Not whole not all who identify themselves as Calvinist or Arminian or Wesleyan etc are cookie cutters of one another. Tell us. What is unique about your? Identity as a Mennonite.

Well I'm in Western Canada in Vancouver area and up here kind of the denominations that are big in the US are not big in Canada. So like Southern Baptists up here are very small. Don't have a lot of influence at all.

And same thing for the Presbyterian circles, but in the area I mean, it's heavily Mennonite brethren and the Mennonite brethren would be a denomination of the Mennonites that would be evangelical and Among the Mennonite brethren in Western Canada.

There's been a huge Revival of reformed theology. So all of the biggest Mennonite churches in my area and they're Reformed and complementarian and have become actually strong Bible teaching churches. Wow.

Something that 25 30 years ago. Nobody would have expected.

So would that be the same with you personally? Are you also theologically reformed and Calvinistic?

Oh, definitely. Oh, yeah, I definitely the five-pointer just like yourself and big fan of James White he's been a Distant to help in 40. Yeah, I kind of when I was in Bible college.

Issues. And I came to by the way, whatever you're doing right now keep doing it because your voice sounds perfect. But sometimes it fades away for some reason.

Okay, but I'm on my I'm on my phone and I may have my signal might kind of okay.

Because right right then you were perfect. But anyway, go ahead. I went to a.

Historically Mennonite Bible College and I just was I grew up in a church that wasn't really a preaching church. So when I got to Bible College, I realized I didn't really understand the gospel. I could repeat it, but I didn't understand it and So sorting through all of that that led me through a whole bunch of theological changes and That led me to yet.

They become reformed in my faith understanding kind of the election and predestination and regeneration and Yeah, working through a whole bunch of other issues now.

What would have been the soteriology of Menno Simons or Menno Simmons?

He would have been somewhat Arminian although Menno was not. I mean Mennonites historically theologically are pragmatists and they don't they kind of hold multiple positions in a way that's somewhat Contradictory, but yet they kind of they try their best to read the Bible and do what it says.

But Mennonites of course historically have been an agrarian people. They've not been educated at all. And so you've had I mean up until Fairly recently. They haven't really even had a seminary or anything.

And so they they have theologically have been kind of all over the place. But yeah, Mennon would have been somewhat Somewhat Arminian ish, but yet at other times he would talk about the sovereignty of God.

You think you're reading a reformer. And what century did Menno live in?

Well, he was 1500 early 1500 so he would have been a contemporary of Martin Luther, right?

D are you aware of whether or not Luther knew him?

Well the Anabaptists in general weren't terribly loved because of course they. Well. Much to my chagrin when I was in school and doing some history realized that when they started out a lot of work. Yes.

That's one of the reasons why unfortunately, I'm not advocating the fact that Martin Luther did not give them safe passage.

But.

They they this many of them were anarchists weren't they not. And and also polygamists and all kinds of strange things.

Oh, yeah, there was there was no shortage of Theological and so the Mennonites often were. I mean they were persecuted people so they moved around a lot. They went from kind of Holland to Germany they ended up in Prussia in the Ukraine and they more were just trying to survive and of course it was a.

Logically, we're just totally confused and then there was some leaders who kind of went off the deep end rather quickly but the Mennonite brethren emerged out of the Mennonite movement. In December of 1859 a Lutheran evangelist went through southern Russia and brought the gospel and At that they came out.

They became a very gospel aware and gospel oriented people.

Well, uh, well is going back to my other question. I am I got.

I.

Got what's the word? I'm looking for. I got distracted by somebody walking into my office. So I hope you didn't answer this. But did Luther do you know? Personally ever meet or encounter Menno Simmons.

I.

Don't know okay and.

The the Anabaptists that we know of from history and even today. They would they would they would hail him as one of their heroes, but I'm assuming you think that many of our modern-day Anabaptists also known as Mennonites and even Amish folk they you believe that they have departed from that ancestry in many in many serious ways.

Yeah. So one example of that would be kind of Separation from the world and the Amish and the Hutterites and some of those groups have taken that as the Fidelity to the teaching of now. Simon. Then I'll.

Simon said a lot of good things. He said a lot of bad things. He said a lot of confusing things. I don't really. I mean, I'm definitely not a Mennonite more for me. It's more kind of like being Jewish where there's a theological aspect, but there's also a cultural identification than a theological.

Okay. Now I believe one of the hallmarks of Your average Mennonite or Anabaptist is Unlike well like the Baptists they believe in believers only Baptist but baptism unlike the Baptists they use a fusion or pouring rather than immersion.

Is that the case with you. And and most.

Yeah, the the Mennonites are actually broken on that. There's the. What used to be called the general conference? Which is now called the Mennonite Conference of Canada and they would do a fusion and the Mennonite brethren are.

Okay, and.

Yeah, then there's also a group called the Dunkard's. I believe that are triple immersion.

Yeah, there's there's lots of small Mennonite groups that are kind of all over the map on that, too.

Okay, and the temple tell us something about your personal journey. And the providential things that the Lord brought you into your life. To bring you to a saving knowledge of him including let us know something about your own religious upbringing if any etc.

Sure, I was born. I was born. I went to a church. I'm from Prince George, British Columbia, which is basically in the middle of BC. You look at Seattle. It's both probably about eight eight and a half nine hour drive north of Seattle and If you in town I went to the Mennonite Church in that town.

Which was the big church in town was a church. I went to his Westwood Mennonite Brethren Church. And it was kind of we were in the in the era of Bill Hybels and kind of the seeker driven stuff and our church.

Got into that a bit heard of a lot of people and so it grew very quickly. I was involved in music a lot. I grew up in the church and I was in my church. I was one of the only drummers so I played and we had two services I played and because of the way it worked out I actually didn't attend a Sunday service drums in the morning service and then coffee during the sermon and Then kind of prepare for the second service and we play the second service and with a sermon and then we'd all go home.

That's why I ended up not hearing any preach. And I mean I I Grew up in the I mean in the church the Mennonites like to call themselves or at least back then they like to call themselves. They like to pride themselves on being simple we just kind of read the Bible do what it says.

We're not kind of highfalutin theologians. But of course what that means is they just adapt any theology that comes along. Rather uncritically at times and I knew the Bible was true. I knew the Bible was good and I was very pro Bible for a long time.

But when I was in eighth grade Mennonites Mennonites kind of are if you think of your Independent fundamentalist Baptists you have a kind of the southern u .s Who are notorious for things like judging people on the basis of skirt length and Bible translation?

Oh, they're not isolated. They're not isolated in the southern part of the United States. I knew quite quite a number of my friends even in the heart of New York City are Toward that end of the spectrum.

And that kind of blind traditionalism that manifests. Mennonites have that too. We had that in spades and. When I was in eighth grade, I brought some non-christian friends to the youth group and we showed up late.

We're like five ten minutes late and one of the youth sponsors told us he took us aside said you guys This is the house of God and if you're gonna come late, then don't come at all. And so then we were like, okay.

Well, we're not gonna come.

And.

Then we ended up looking around town for the youth group that had the best-looking girls. The ladies there so out of that I kind of got into the full gospel so like the Assemblies of God in the u .s.

Is that that same. And so and I was going to a POC church and the youth group there and involved there. And of course, I picked up a lot of charismatic theology. And so because of that I noticed my church wasn't doing that and of course the Mennonites aren't.

Back then at least they weren't charismatic, but mostly because they were scared if they didn't really understand it. We didn't really have a response to it. They just kind of didn't do it because it seemed spooky.

And so for me telling my friends that I went to this church where people spoke in tongues. Everything was when I went to Bible College. I I wanted to go to pursue music and at that time I was involved in a POC church that was near my Bible College.

And yet I'm studying the Bible. I started learning things like hermeneutics and learning how to you know Bible interpretation and but in historical theology and stuff I started realizing there was kind of between how I was hearing the Bible taught and the theology I was hearing at church and what I was getting at Bible College and then also a discrepancy between that what I learned growing up.

That really prompted a lot of soul-searching and a lot of kind of study Late-night study on my own just digging through the gospel and trying to figure out what the gospels and the New Testament trying to figure.

Led to me in my third year of Bible College after studying for two years and really struggling with various Issues and trying to figure out kind of in a nutshell trying to figure out how some guy getting nailed to apply my head.

That was kind of the gospel. And and how does Jesus somehow how does how why does him getting killed mean anything what does that do and Really understanding the economy of that and I took two years for me to work through that on my own.

And of course, I went to a Bible College lots of theological traditions there which meant you've got you go to one class get one answer in the next class the prophecy and a heretic came to head up and.

When was it in your journey that you actually discovered these theologically reformed Mennonite brethren?

Well, that would my Bible. College Time when I got saved would have been what? 1997 and those. In the early 2000s when the kind of the younger reckless and reformed movement started moving north and.

So.

We had that kind of coming out in the early early 2000s. The biggest Mennonite Church in Vancouver the biggest Mennonite Brethren Church is a church called Willingdon and Willingdon is a church of probably 5 ,500.

The pastor there was a guy named John Newfold and he would do he was a big a guy. He was big into expository preaching. He would do conferences and bring up John Piper. Bruce Ware John MacArthur spoke there at one point and he really kind of Introduced those ideas to that can be conference on the whole and that was kind of in the early days of the Internet to like 2001 2002 and and That kind of took off and then.

The other big Mennonite Church in the in the areas in my town of Abbotsford, which is one of the suburbs of Vancouver. In Abbotsford, there's a church called Northview and Northview the church that's a it's a Mennonite Brethren Church of about 4 ,000 and They had a senior pastor who left and they were looking for a long time and they couldn't find the guy.

Which is do and the youth pastor kind of inherited the reigns. It turned out that the youth pastor there the guy who was actually the college career pastor with a guy named Jeff Bucknum and he is a Dallas grad a reformed guy and.

But the teacher he has been really strong in bringing that Theology to the Mennonite Brethren circles and Buckham's been pastor there for so the reformed resurgence has been a little newer. Mostly post y2k in time that I was kind of discovering that it was also infiltrating The churches and I had a lot of friends in Mennonite Brethren churches and other towns were hearing about this.

Some of these big churches were really coming out being reformed and complementarian, too.

Confessional Identity, Pacifism, and Worship Practices in Mennonite Brethren Churches

So so what in essence would be the difference between a Theologically reformed You know soteriologically Calvinistic Mennonite Brethren Church and a reformed Baptist Church. Are you confessional. Like for instance many not all but many if not most Reformed Baptist adhere to the 1689 London Baptist Confession.

Some of them to the Philadelphia Confession, which is nearly identical and then you have some that you know adhere to the New Hampshire Confession of Faith, but. Is there a typically a confession adopted or are they non-confessional which actually I don't believe that really anybody is Non-confessional, but but but if you could comment on that.

Yeah, the Mennonite Brethren tend to be non-confessional just because it's not something that's historically part of their DNA. But yet, of course, they have their statement of faith, which is fairly exhaustive and is stolen ideas from lots of confessions.

So, yeah, they definitely have their own confession, but it's just kind of an internal thing. They've made and In practice many Mennonites one of the distinctives is pacifism, but that's starting to change a little bit like the church I grew up in was kind of a Cart Blanche pacifism that you know, you never fight back.

You never defend yourself. Militaries wearing a gun is basic and I grew up in that. Theology has long since moved past that and some of the the Mennonite Brethren historically have basically ignored the entire Old Testament when it comes.

To that subject and in Jesus Christ, Jesus Christ never told any of the Centurions to to recant Of their their careers there. Oh.

Yeah, no, I know and that's I fully agree. That's I'm not at all current Blanche pacifism I am definitely. I think Christ gave us some examples for.

Um.

Non, I don't know what you call it. Non retributive violence, maybe. No. Fighting in general for fun is definitely not something that's fitting with someone who professes Christ, but John the Baptist even told the.

Soldiers to be content with their wages, didn't he?

Yeah. Sure. That's what I mean. Yeah, definitely Christ was. He was not silent on the issue and he was not anti military or anti law enforcement or even anti justice. When it comes to government dispensing justice, I mean Paul talks about Romans 13 and all that, right?

So I'm.

Yeah, I was gonna say so. They would even be against law enforcement.

Yeah, yeah. There's some. I remember growing up when there was some. There was once a guy who was an RCMP like a Canadian. Not to police and he came to church in his uniform with his sidearm. And he was quietly ushered out and asked to kind of come appropriately dressed for church.

Wow.

Yeah now. Some of the other things. I know that some Mennonites Have a strict a cappella form of worship in regard to their singing. Is that a practice of the Mennonite Brethren or is it different from congregation to congregation?

Now many brethren Generally have embraced Mennonites actually have been. I mean, they're fairly Traditionalistic in that they're some of the only churches in the area that still have choirs for example but they definitely have Modern worship.

All the big churches have worship pastors and kind of thing. You know saying whatever I mean a lot of sadly a lot of Hill songs music and a few other things. But you know Geddes as well and all the kind of contemporary hymns and whatnot.

So they're the strict a cappella. That's not been a thing. I don't even remember that being a thing. I haven't been around that long, but that wasn't a thing in the early 80s and I can and.

Do you know anything about. I don't know if they exist in Canada or if they're that Big of a group in Canada, but the Brethren in Christ. They're they're nicknamed the BIC churches BIC Brethren in Christ.

They are very very Common where I am living now. I never had heard of them until I moved to Pennsylvania. But they are an offshoot of the Mennonites, but have adopted a very modern and contemporary Style of worship.

They're into church growth. They have some they have some of them have very very large facilities here. And of course, there are some megachurches in other parts of the country where they would chuckle if I would call something out here a megachurch, but.

But for a Reformed Baptist if you're if you're over 300 people you're a megachurch. But do you know anything of them. Because they seem to be tilting towards the liberal end of the spectrum now I.

I've heard of them, but I'm honestly not familiar enough to really talk intelligently about them now.

Lastly, I have a friend who if you don't know him, you've got to get to know him a Chuck Volo. I don't know if you know Chuck Volo. He is a pastor of New Life Community Church in Maryland and he has a Evangelistic ministry in Kingsville, Maryland, by the way, he has an evangelistic Ministry to the Amish and he has been used of God to bring Amish folks to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ.

Because he I mean I I was it was a real eye-opener Interviewing Chuck and I have to have him back on because tragically when he was on my program There was a malfunction and the the interview was not recorded.

So I have to have him back on so I can have that archived on my website, but it was a real eye-opener interviewing him and also seeing a documentary called trouble in Amish paradise about Two Amish folks two Amish men Who became born-again Christians and were shunned? from the Amish community because I did not know these certain things the the Amish are very opposed to public evangelism.

You have to use a German Bible and even more. More tragic is their gospel is completely a Pelagian or works righteousness. Gospel, I mean you can certain Amish groups you could Go to hell for wearing the wrong Suspenders and I'm not even joking.

But that obviously is nothing. You have no connection or similarity that to that group, but they somehow historically did break away from each other. Didn't they? Okay, well I did. I do want to give just because Chuck is such a Dear brother in Christ and has got such a wonderful ministry.

I want to give a plug to his website new life MD for Maryland org new life MD org for new life Community Church in Kingsville, Maryland where Chuck Volo is the pastor and.

And.

We are going to be taking your questions after this break. If you'd like to join us with a question of your own for our guest Lyndon Unger. My email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. Chris a RN z n at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name your city and state in your country of residence. If you live outside the USA if You prefer to remain anonymous because perhaps you are Going to be criticizing the church where you are a member or something like that We will grant your request to be anonymous.

But if it's just a general question on theology or on the specific subject at hand addressing the dressing modesty in the Bible Please give us at least your first name city and state in your country of residence at Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. Don't go away. We will be right back with Lyndon Unger the Mennonite That's KNIG HT right after these messages. So, please don't go away. I'm Chris Arnzen host of iron sharpens iron radio.

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If you've just tuned in our guest today is the Mennonite Lyndon Unger. He is a Mennonite pastor with the Mennonite brethren. He is a theologically reformed or Calvinistic Mennonite and he is a blogger at the cripple gate got Dot-com.

That's the cripple gate dot-com and also watch your life and doctrine closely and that Website is Mennonite. That's MENNOKNIGHT .WORDPRESS .COM. Tell us about the cripple gate Lyndon. What exactly? Does that name come from?

It's kind of on the website the Puritan in the Puritan era of London. There was Baptist and Calvinist and they and I hope that our listeners begin visiting that blog. It's quite fascinating and in fact.

One of the things we're going to be discussing today is addressing the dressing modesty in the Bible and. If you'd like to join us on the air our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com. Now the the topic at hand obviously modesty involves different things.

Under the sovereign plan of God the American people have just elected a man to be our next president. That is not known for modesty, but that would not be because of the way he dresses. He is not immodest in his dress.

It's in regard to his pride, but. You are not talking about this issue of modesty today. You're talking about the way people dress. Are you not.

Yeah, I mean it would have been very uncommon for a woman to walk into a.

Gathered assembly in those days that was scantily clad that there were women in our culture who regularly attend worship services in Outfits that at one time people would have thought were scandalous for a prostitute to wear.

In of it I mean I kind of dug into it. It's I may turn into a small e-book one day because I ended up being ten posts on the cripple gate which. Too much to read. Well I wanted to document stuff and kind of really work through the issue as comprehensively as I could and when it came to the end of it the whole what we tend to think of modesty is in the Bible's really and the whole idea of willfully uncover it's that normally you're covered up by your undergarments and Then of course even there that kind of stuff is not even on the radar when in the Bible.

See things like forbidden to have steps going up to the altar in case you could. You're like, wait a minute I'll do their nakedness. Well can't exactly see up into the you know underwear when the so so this.

This.

Area of modesty that you're addressing is something that is equally Something that men and women should be taking heed to now obviously even in the other end of the spectrum where you're talking about provocative dressing.

Man could be guilty of that, but it's just not as typical for a man to be walking into a church Wearing provocative clothing. He may do that in other areas of life or places. But but it just seems to be such a commonplace thing for women to be.

And not in every church, but in many churches even can very conservative churches you'll have women with very very short skirts and and you know backless dresses and all kinds of things that and and teenage girls and.

And obviously this is an important issue, but it's not that the focus of what you wanted to discuss today and By the way, I don't want to even sound like I'm beating up on our sisters in Christ. One of the reasons why That particular issue is so important it's because of the weakness of your brothers.

It's because of our our tendency to be prone towards sexual weakness to be you know easily Seduced and so on.

But.

So but as far as this issue of not flaunting wealth Why is this such a a Negative and disturbing and dangerous thing in your opinion.

Not talking about that then we're off on what the Bible's talking. And so when the Bible talks about modesty as far as I've come to understand that it is talking about the flaunting of wealth and how Destructive that can be in splitting.

Used in one of the blog posts is that you know men and women who have money they can flaunt their wealth very. I Worked with a woman who made a lot of money and she had a bad handbag. That was I think worth about $7 ,000.

She would go to my church. But she would go to church and other people went to church with her would see it and they would just they would recognize it. By it's distinct brand. It's just stuff like that.

You would talk like that's wealthy kind of thought she had some sort of spiritual credibility because she was wealthy. Like many in the word-of-faith movement would definitely.

Agree they would disagree with your your Intent here, but they would agree wholeheartedly that that That the more The more one spends on their clothing the more one is Reflecting to those around him that God's blessing is upon them.

And and of course that goes that goes hand in hand with the house. They live in in the car. They drive and the watches and the jewelry they were.

Yeah, and I remember listening to RC scroll a long time ago and he he kind of I didn't understand it at the time as much as I do now and he talked about one of the problems we have in the church is When we you know Have subtle heresies that sneak in and they fly under the radar because they're not overt.

But one of the example he used was Men who are on the Board of Elders simply because they're rich. And that idea that yeah sneaks into the church that men who have money. Why is that all the guys on the Board of Elders and many of the churches you see are the richest guys in the church?

Why is that the fact that they have money doesn't mean anything spiritually about them yet? There's a subtle Computation.

Yeah, I remember a story that I heard years ago from a man who was talking about the church that he was raised in and There was a couple that were well-to-do and the wife was a regular Attender of the church and a member of the church and and the husband was hardly ever in the church and she was having a meeting with the elders and deacons of the church to come up with ways that would entice her husband into joining the church and The consensus of the elders and deacons were why don't we make him a deacon?