November 9, 2016 Show with Kathleen Melonakos on “Secret Combinations: Evidence of Early Mormon Counterfeiting (1800-1847)”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio

platform on which pastors, Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues

facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, iron sharpens iron, so one

man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, quote, we are cautioned to take heed whom we

converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another

wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour, and we hope to hear

from you, the listener, with your own questions.

Now here's our host, Chris Arntzen.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County,.

Pennsylvania, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming.

This is Chris Arntzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron, wishing you all a happy Wednesday

on this ninth day of November 2016.

Well, as most of humanity knows by now, Donald Trump has been

elected as president of the United States of America, and I just ask of our listeners now

to pray fervently that the Lord brings good, true,

solid Christians in mass into Donald Trump's life to continue

evangelizing him, that he might be saved, that he might be guided not by his own

ego and pride and self -sufficiency, but that he may be humbly

guided by the truth of God's Holy Word and His Holy Spirit,

and that true, much -needed change may take place in this nation,

especially in regard to the protection of the life of the unborn.

So I just wanted to say that today because it was a monumental event

early this morning here in the United States, which will also have global ramifications, obviously,

and ask of the Iron Sharpens Iron audience to pray for Mr. Trump.

But we're not going to be speaking about that today as our topic.

Today we have for the very first time on the program Kathleen Milanakos, and she can correct me

if I mispronounced her name.

I was correct.

Oh, great.

Well, Kathleen is the author of a book that we're going to be discussing, Secret Combinations,

Evidence of Early Mormon Counterfeiting Between 1800

and 1847, and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time ever to Iron Sharpens

Iron, Kathleen Milanakos.

Thank you.

I'm so happy to be here.

And by the way, my maiden name is Kimball, which is a very

dyed -in -the -wool, black -looking Mormon name.

I mean, my great -grandfather...

Well, I'd like you to talk about that a bit.

Tell us about your history with the Mormon Church and how you

eventually came out of that yourself.

So my full name is Kathleen Kimball Milanakos.

That's where my ancestry is.

And were your parents Mormons, and were you raised in Mormonism?

Yes, I was.

And my father, he was a direct descendant of Heber C. Kimball.

His name was Heber C. Kimball IV, in fact.

And his wing of the family continued to practice polygamy after the 1890

manifesto that discontinued it.

Influence and a tremendous thing in our family that he had come out of a

polygamy group.

He started writing the book.

Because in my

mother's family,

polygamy background and the

mainstream church and...

So in other words, you had mainstream Mormons and fundamentalist, polygamous Mormons in your family up until

recent history?

Yes.

My father had

found out about it

in my early teens when they married me off.

It was pretty horrendous.

A plane crash, unexpected

16.

Then she had no

hope.

Then her family at

least needed

that experience.

It's a

counterfeiting

in the Mormon record itself and

identified.

And so

then

it

went back

and forth.

But there's all...

I said, what?

There must be more to this story.

And it must be a more and more important part of the story than has been acknowledged.

What is it?

And of course, they tried to keep it secret.

So I had to piece together...

Yeah, this is a thoroughly documented massive book that you've written, 478 pages.

And let me just read a couple of the accolades that it has received.

Sandra Tanner, who is the great, great granddaughter of Brigham Young,

says that pioneering Mormon historian, author of Mormonism, Shadow or

Reality, and 40 other books.

Sandra Tanner says that she found your work fascinating and it was great research.

And there are many more who have written accolades for this book.

But tell us about exactly who Kimball was that

you are related to.

Okay.

Well, in addition to

Sandra Tanner and

John Whitmer, I

worked with these

other Mormons

and got

their

ancestor, Joseph

Smith, a year before

he ever

became

the Mormon prophet.

And for seven years, at a minimum, he engaged

in swindling people with a seer stone.

He would look and

pay him a fee

for even

years, you know, making

sacrifices

to originate this kind

of people.

And that was what

was so

interesting

about these

other characters.

But

their

history went way farther back than that.

You look in the records and Joseph Smith's family had married into the Kimball

family when the

Book of Mormon came out.

So it looked to me and it

looked like they were already in a counterfeiting group long before they ever

had to know something about

counterfeiting.

Counterfeiting

was

an

extreme

and

many

were.

Governments

have to

avoid what law

enforcement,

counterfeiting was a real big problem.

The evangelical majority engaged in

counterfeiting and they would

have a Christian preacher, but

then he would be heading up

this fringe

group with

counterfeiting

and horse

the records.

I mean,

yes, the frontier, they endured

hardships, the settlements,

and many of them were

sincere.

I mean, not yet.

And before we return to that story, I just want to get a little bit more about your background so our listeners know

exactly who I am interviewing.

You say you were raised Mormon, and when was it and how was it that the Lord drew you out of this

group and.

Drew you into Bible -believing Orthodox Christianity?

I always

had questions

growing up,

you know,

especially

after my, ask in faith and you will receive the

answer,

really sincere.

You know, the answer was no.

That's the way he, he did not give me that

burning of the bosom, and he kept me investigating.

I went to the temple to be married at age 20.

Commitments, lifelong, not only, not only lifelong

commitments as to

eternal destiny, you're 20

years old.

You know, if you marry the wrong person to keep his covenant, then

you have no hope either.

And I saw it

happen to my

mother's destiny.

So then I did, then we did get married in the temple and I had a very disturbing feeling

that they do not prepare you.

You haven't, you do not know what's going to go on in there because

it's secret.

They tell you to go by your feelings.

You know, some of

the unsavory things about

Joseph.

Left

the

Mormon church not knowing what to believe.

You know, we knew that wasn't true.

So then I, then I wanted to know who was Jesus.

Took two classes.

He told me a

whole

nother wrongs about him.

You can't,

then I looked into these other things.

Those didn't

seem to hold up either.

Philosophy at Stanford, not a master's degree,

because I wanted to know the meaning of life.

Well, maybe the philosophers can tell me, what is this life all about?

This is a, this is, you know, it's not easy to live.

It's not, you have problems, you have suffering.

And you know, we were moving a lot of places.

A new life.

And well, what am I

going to base

my life on?

And everything that I investigated would not hold up under investigation.

And no one could ever tell me that there wasn't a God.

I, I believe, I always believed in God.

And I always believed in, in treating others as

you want to

be treated.

And so in answer to my prayers, after years,

they didn't

push

us.

And they had their

beliefs.

And so

then

I read

C .S. Lewis at Christmas.

Heard the singing and I heard, understood.

And, and I, now I know,

study more of

the Bible.

We know more about him than any other ancient figure.

And I had already studied.

No one questioned what

we know about them.

Academics.

And yes, we know more about Jesus than

any of the ancient figures.

And the more I came to know, based on evidence, because I'd been trained in philosophy,

the evidence, the Bible does stand up when you examine it.

And maybe you don't like that.

The shortest leap of

faith in the Bible.

And I came, I came to love her about him.

And it's on who

was seen

by witnesses, who was, who was resurrected.

If he, you know, he either was resurrected in history in real time or not.

And if he was.

And how long has

it

been since you've been a Bible believing

evangelical

Christian?

It was around the

year.

And that made it more important to know what, to me, to know what really, up

to that time, Mormon Church may not be true

for that.

No!

If it's Christ, really, then

it matters.

It, maybe something does work for you.

I could, you know, but, but that is not going to give you anything

to what really matters, which is, it's

important, this

idea that it

matters, that the actual truth is available.

The teachings of Joseph Smith,

you know, I want to, I want to get, I want to reach them.

I want to reach my loved ones.

I want to reach the people that I love.

So that's why it's more important to know what really happened in the, in the early church.

Now, what, what, how did your Mormon family react to this conversion of yours?

Well, they have been, you know, there's my husband's family who are not

ethnic.

His parents

joined

in the 1960s, or,

you know, well, my

back being in the Mormon,

tuned to the

teaching

that says you

should, to their credit, my husband's family have

not, have been friendly, but, but they, but religion is

never discussed recently.

I extended, you

know, because you're either in or out

in their eyes.

What do you know about my book?

We, you know, they didn't talk about it for a long time.

They knew I

was open -minded enough to

maybe re -examine, you know, what they believe.

Yeah, well, we'll have to pray that the Lord does.

Exactly what he did to you.

As you even described it, he opened your eyes to the truth and opened your heart, and we have to pray

that the Lord does that with your family as well.

We have to go to our first station break right now.

If you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own about Mormonism and in, and

specifically about our guest's book, Secret Combinations,

Evidence of Early Mormon Counterfeiting from 1800 to 1847.

Our guest is the author of that book, Kathleen Kimball Milonakos,

and our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com, c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z

-e -n at gmail .com.

Don't go away.

We are going to be right back after these messages.

I am Chris Arnsen, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, here to tell you about an exciting offer from World

Magazine, my trusted source for news from a Christian perspective.

Try World at no charge for 90 days and get a free copy of R .C. Sproul's book,

Relationship Between Church and State.

I rely on World because I trust the reporting.

I gain insight from the analysis, and World provides clarity to the news stories that really matter.

I believe you'll also find World to be an invaluable resource to better understand critical topics with a depth that's

simply not found in other media outlets.

Armed with this coverage, World can help you to be a voice of wisdom in your family and your community.

This trial includes bi -weekly issues of World Magazine, on -scene reporting from World Radio,

and the fully shareable content of World Digital.

Simply visit wmg .org forward slash iron sharpens

to get your World trial and Dr. Sproul's book all free, no obligation with no credit card

required.

Visit World News Group at wmg .org forward

slash iron sharpens today.

I'm James White of Alpha Omega Ministries.

The New American.

Standard Bible is perfect for daily reading or in -depth study.

Used by pastors, scholars, and everyday readers, the NASB is widely embraced and trusted as a literal and readable Bible

translation.

The NASB offers clarity and readability while maintaining high accuracy to the original languages which the NASB is known

for.

The NASB is available in many editions like a topical reference Bible.

Researched and prepared by biblical scholars devoted to accuracy, the new topical reference Bible includes contemporary

topics relevant to today's issues.

From compact to giant print Bibles, find an NASB that fits your needs very affordably at nasbible

.com.

Trust, discover, and enjoy the NASB for yourself today.

Go to nasbible .com.

That's nasbible .com.

Tired of box store Christianity?

Of doing church in a warehouse with all the trappings of a rock concert?

Do you long for a more traditional and reverent style of worship?

And how about the preaching?

Perhaps you've begun to think that in -depth biblical exposition has vanished from Long Island.

Well, there's good news.

Wedding River Baptist Church exists to provide believers with a meaningful and reverent worship experience

featuring the systematic exposition of God's Word.

And this loving congregation looks forward to meeting you.

Call them at 631 -929 -3512 for service times.

631 -929 -3512.

Or check out their website at wrbc .us.

That's wrbc .us.

Charles Haddon Spurgeon once said,.

Give yourself unto reading.

The man who never reads will never be read.

He who never quotes will never be quoted.

He who will not use the thoughts of other men's brains proves that he.

Has no brains of his own.

You need to read.

Solid Ground Christian Books is a publisher and book distributor who takes these words of the Prince of Preachers to heart.

The mission of Solid Ground Christian Books is to bring back treasures of the past to minister to Christians in the present and

future, and to publish new titles that address burning issues in the church and the world.

Since its beginning in 2001, Solid Ground has been committed to publish God -centered, Christ -exalting

books for all ages.

We invite you to go treasure hunting at solid -ground -books .com.

That's solid -ground -books .com and see what priceless literary gems from the past to

present you can unearth from Solid Ground.

Solid Ground Christian Books is honored to be a weekly sponsor of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

Welcome back.

This is Chris Arnzen.

If you've just tuned us in, our guest today for the full two hours with about 90 minutes to go is Kathleen

Kimball Melenakos.

She's the author of Secret Combinations, Evidence of Early Mormon Counterfeiting from 1800 to

1847.

I just wanted to read a couple more of the endorsements that the book has received.

Will Bagley, award -winning author of Blood of the Prophets, Brigham Young, and the Mountain Meadows

Massacre, and many other historical works, writes, Kathleen has explored in depth

one of the most explosive topics for a historian.

She has changed my thinking about early Mormon origins.

Sure, it arose in the burnt -over district of upstate New York, but the religion appears to have been

a cover.

Also, Dr. James Beverly, professor of religion at Tyndale Seminary and author of

The Illustrated Guide to Religions and many other works on religion and faith, writes, Kathleen is a

descendant of one of the major Mormon pioneers who was the right -hand man to Joseph Smith, the founder

of Mormonism.

Kathleen has done incredible historical work and discovered evidence that Smith engaged in counterfeiting

through most of his adult life, and while he was a Mormon leader.

Her work has won praise from leading historians of Mormonism.

And also, Kay Birmingham, a civil trial attorney and author of

An American Fraud, One Lawyer's Case Against Mormonism, writes, Kathleen Mellonachos has

compiled a convincing compendium of material supporting the existence of early Mormon

origins in secret oath -bound counterfeiting networks in American history.

She has found evidence in the interstitial history of the late 18th and 19th

centuries, court news, real estate, vital and other records to

support her thesis.

The word is an integration, this work is an integration of general historical commentary

regarding counterfeiting with primary source documents evidencing the counterfeiting activities of early Mormon

figures in particular.

The result is an unforgettable and scholarly work which I highly recommend to any truth seeker.

And there are others as well, and this is a thoroughly documented massive work.

It's about, as I said earlier, 478 pages.

And we do have a listener from Slovenia who has a

question for you, Kathleen.

Really?

Joe from Slovenia says, when as a Christian in my young

adult years, I faced challenges to my faith at university from professors and fellow

students.

I had to begin investigating the facts regarding the claims of Christianity.

I had to do research and test the evidence for the inspiration and inerrancy of the scripture.

All of my searching serves to strengthen my faith because all the claims of biblical Christianity are

factually and historically true.

Do Mormons commonly have a similar experience where they are forced to investigate the truth

claims of Mormonism?

What happens when they investigate?

Do they discover all the mounds of evidence that discredit Joseph Smith and his fabricated

writings?

What generally happens when.

They do?

This is an interesting question.

The Prophet and

the Twelve Apostles hold a

general conference every day.

In general conference, they discourage,

don't go on any of these websites.

They're equal to pornography, anti -Mormon websites, which

all they are, are publishing original documents from the 19th century,

teachings of Joseph

Smith, Brigham Young,

from looking into their own church,

but they can't stop them from that.

So many people do start investigating.

They have a question, they have a contradiction, they find something that they

reference, you know, references to modern things,

Mormon.

Now, how can it be a document, a history

of the, you

know, things like this?

I mean, and so,

but a lot of times, metaphor,

I'll get the

answer

sometime, but then they run into something else.

They put that on the shelf, and then they find out about Joseph Smith's polygamy, or

whatever else that the church wasn't telling, you know.

After a while, it's a sudden process for some, like,

wrong.

Other

people, it

takes a long process,

and they go for years, sometimes, being

questioned, you know, wondering about this,

not wanting to think about one partner starts

in your

feelings, and it must be

your family visiting, teaching, you must

live in a

church, teaching a Cub Scout,

or having nine kids, or so many faithful Mormon

believers, but the ones, but there

are many that in

the temple, like I did, or something disturbs them, and then they get,

there's the internet.

The internet has made all these documents available to anybody, which it never was before,

and they start looking into it, and one thing leads to

another,

information that's available.

They find out about the historical Joseph Smith versus the mythical Joseph Smith.

He didn't live that long ago.

We still have all the records.

We still have newspaper accounts.

There's been, there's a man named all

kinds of newspapers from the 19th century, and

also original

documents from the 19th century, and that's why it was, that way it was possible for me

to look at these original documents that have been published,

different sources, and on the internet.

I looked at hundreds of documents, hundreds of books.

I spent years just poring over these things and finding

evidence that here, here's a document here, look at this

arrest record that, you know, I could put that in there that he was actually arrested in Vermont.

There was right in the middle of my high

-ranking inner circle Mormon leaders that either had arrest records, or

indictments, or testimony, or the people had said that they were

counterfeiting money, and so I put that all together, but

you know, to answer the question, they are not encouraged to investigate.

My teachers, who

are

Hebrew, and they do nothing but

encourage any question

that you want, ask me, I'll try to explain it.

That is not the case in the Mormon Church.

In fact, Sandra Tanner, one of the main historians,

she was

a young person, she asked a teacher in

the minority teaching the Mormon doctrine, told her that she was not

supposed to ask so many questions.

I mean, so then she said, well, why not?

And her and her husband started uncovering things, so they actually tell their believers

not to investigate, so if, you know, if something's true, it will stand up

under investigation.

People, it will have, you can ask, but

if it isn't true, then you gotta...

Well, we have another question from.

Joe, a follow -up question from Joe in Slovenia.

Okay.

He says, here in Slovenia, the Mormons have recently built a temple in the capital city.

Occasionally, I see Mormon missionaries on the street.

What does your guest suggest regarding how to best approach them?

What are the most common do's and don'ts that I should be aware of?

How should I relate them personally to cultivate a relationship with them,

to care for them, and share the gospel with them?

How should I go about presenting the evidence for eras of Mormonism to them?

And you were even saying, Kathleen, before the program that you wanted to be clear that you do

truly love and care about Mormons, that this is not some hatred or bigotry that you have toward them,

even though you do, obviously, being a lover of truth, you have

a disdain for the founder of this cult and its teachings that

contradict what the Lord has taught in his word.

But what advice do you have for this brother in Slovenia, who obviously has a

heart for the Mormons and the Mormon missionaries in his.

Area?

You're admonished to do that

because you are going to be causing

someone to,

especially in a loving way, because it's

easy to

challenge.

But yes, you ask

them, you know,

they are wanting to challenge you in

your faith.

So invite them to come in and be friends,

care about them.

But

to get

them to

investigate,

I'll have to tell you where

Joseph Smith said it, near his home,

and he found an

artifact

in one single pot shard

in all America.

So that's

one question.

Maybe possibly a much better way to

say it, you know, Joseph

Smith said, we believe the Bible,

the King James Bible.

The King James Bible.

Maybe encourage them

to

read the New Testament.

And they can use the King James Bible.

Even, you know, read the New

Testament and ask them, who is Jesus according to John?

John, read the book

of John, the eye witness,

because that's a different Jesus than they're taught by Joseph

Smith.

The Joseph Smith

mother, wife, who evolved into being a god on his own planet.

It's a

whole different system.

The temples are not part of original Christianity.

Jesus came to outdate the temple.

You know, he said the temple's no longer needed.

Something greater than the temple is the temple.

You are my temple, they gather in my name.

You know, you don't have to reach

in the temple.

Focus on who Jesus, King James Bible,

the same.

Are you worshiping the same God of Christianity?

And as a matter of fact, the Mormon leaders have said that

they do they want to follow

someone who is a flawed human being, who practiced polygamy, who

under the table,

everything in secret.

Joseph Smith

was going to take over the United States.

He was keeping it secret.

He compared himself to Muhammad.

He had a 4 ,000 man army.

Do you want to believe the words of Jesus himself?

Just look in the New Testament.

Get them to read the New Testament and get them to look on the internet for questions about Mormonism.

If they look it up themselves, there are going to

be much more questions like that.

And get to know them, where they're from.

If they're from America, if they're in a different country over in Slovenia, wow, they're far

away.

Yeah, in fact, I know that it's very easy to.

Have a time of discussion with Mormons because they're the ones eagerly looking for people that want

to invite them into their living room and sit down over some refreshments and have long

conversations.

Exactly.

Unless you're a former Mormon, probably.

I might add that my husband completed a Mormon mission.

He went to

Switzerland

after eating, and he

prayed and asked, he said, is the Mormon church true and is Jesus the Christ?

Well, he definitely got what he did

not get the answer that the Mormon.

I did never get that burning of the bosom, you know.

So what you say to a

Mormon missionary, maybe years later even,

or not, but what you say to him that he may look

into.

By the way, Joe, thank you so much for writing in and thank you also for

providing an American mailing address for your daughter so I can mail you

a free copy of this book, by the way.

Kathleen has been kind enough to provide us with some copies to our listeners who submit

questions today, and since you have provided the address

for your daughter in America, we're going to mail you out this free copy of Secret

Combinations, Evidence of Early Mormon Counterfeiting, 1800 to 1847.

And I'll also send you a list of some excellent resources on Mormonism,

a number of these authors whom I have interviewed in the past on Iron Sharpens Iron.

You could also do a search in the archive of

ironsharpensironradio .com and just type in Mormon or LDS or Latter

-day Saints and you'll get a number of previous interviews with

different guests on Mormonism, both those who have been Mormons themselves or have

just written about it through thorough investigation, like my friend Dr. James R. White of Alpha and Omega

Ministries has become a thoroughly knowledgeable expert on Mormonism, although he was never himself a Mormon.

And we hope that that will be of help to you.

In fact, I'm hoping that my listeners will pray for me because I have got a

couple of young Mormon missionaries that I bumped into just a matter of weeks ago, maybe two weeks ago,

in front of my own home, who were passing by while I was in a parked car talking to a friend.

And I called them over to the car because they immediately recognized the white shirts, black ties,

and name badges.

So I called them over.

I said, you're Mormons, aren't you?

And they said, yeah.

And they were more than happy to talk with me for a while and they're looking forward to getting together with me,

even though they know I'm a Christian talk show host and have interviewed former Mormons.

And in fact, I've interviewed Sandra Tanner, who you mentioned a few times, the great granddaughter of Brigham Young.

And so that should be interesting.

Also, I highly recommend a documentary that you could view for free on the internet

that was produced by my friend Pastor Jason Wallace of Christ Presbyterian

Church in Magna, Utah.

I know him.

Oh, you do?

Yeah, I've been to his church.

Oh, he's a great guy.

And he produced a video that you could watch on

LDS .video.

LDS for Latter -day Saints dot video.

And it is a remarkable documentary.

And I'm not just saying that because I provided a couple of voiceovers for the documentary, but

it's a really good tool.

And we thank you for writing in, Joe.

By the way, I could mention where my book can be obtained, if it's all right.

I'm sorry?

Can I mention where my book can be obtained?

Oh, absolutely.

It's on Amazon .com.

Just type in secret combinations evidence, or you can get it

through my website, www .MormonCounterfeiting

.com, MormonCounterfeiting .com.

Or you can get it through Sandra Tanner's bookstore at utlm .org.

And then it's in bookstores in Salt Lake City, but your listeners

are to Amazon .com, MormonCounterfeiting .com,

or utlm .org.

Great.

And you can also order it because they order books from all publishers that are

represented on Iron Sharpens Iron.

You can order it through CVBBS .com, who is one of my sponsors, Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service.

CV for Cumberland Valley, BBS for BibleBookService .com.

And that's who's actually shipping out your free copy of Secret Combinations,

Evidence of Early Mormon Counterfeiting, that will be arriving at your doorstep,

compliments of Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, who mails out all of our winners, free

Bibles, books, DVDs, CDs, and other things that they win by submitting questions to our guests.

Great.

And Joe from Slovenia also reminded us that the new first lady,

Melania Trump, is from Slovenia.

So pray for her.

Pray for her and the Slovenian people.

But we have to go to our next break right now.

There are a number of people waiting to have their questions asked and answered, and we'll get to you as soon as

we can.

And if you'd like to join them with a question of your own, our email address is ChrisArnzen at

gmail .com.

ChrisArnzen at gmail .com, C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

Don't go away.

We'll be right back with more information on Early Mormon Counterfeiting with our guest

Kathleen Malinakos.

I'm Chris Arnzen, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, and here's one of my favorite guests, Todd Friel, to

tell you about a conference he and I are going.

To.

Hello, this is Todd Friel, host of Wretched Radio and Wretched TV, and

occasional guest on Chris's show Iron Criticizing

Iron.

I think that's what it's called.

Hoping that you can join Chris and me at the G3 conference in Atlanta, my new

hometown.

It is going to be a bang -up conference called the G3 conference,

celebrating the 500th anniversary of the Protestant Reformation with Paul Washer,

Steve Lawson, D .A. Carson, Votie Baucom, Conrad and Bayway, Phil Johnson, James White, and a bunch of other people.

We hope to see you there.

Learn more at g3conference .com, g3conference .com.

Thanks, Todd, I think.

See you at the Iron Sharpens Iron.

Exhibitors booth.

Thriving Financial is not your typical financial services provider.

As a membership organization, we help Christians be wise with money and live generously every day.

And for the fourth year in a row, we were named one of the world's most ethical companies by the Ethisphere

Institute, a leading international think tank dedicated to the creation, advancement, and sharing of best

practices in business ethics.

Contact me, Mike Gallagher, financial consultant,

at 717 -254 -6433.

Again, 717 -254 -6433 to learn more about.

The Thrivent

difference.

A new faith, finances, and generosity.

That's the Thrivent story.

Iron Sharpens Iron welcomes Solid Rock Remodeling to our family of sponsors.

Serving South Central Pennsylvania, Solid Rock Remodeling is focused on discovering,

understanding, and exceeding your expectations.

They deliver personalized project solutions with exceptional results.

Solid Rock Remodeling offers a full range of home renovations, including kitchen and bath

remodeling, decks, porches, windows and doors, roof and siding, and

more.

For a clear, detailed, professional estimate, call this trustworthy team of problem solvers

who provide superior results that stand the test of time.

Call Solid Rock Remodeling at 717 -697 -1981,

717 -697 -1981, or visit

solidrockremodeling .com.

That's solidrockremodeling .com.

Solid Rock Remodeling, bringing new life to your home.

Paul wrote to the church at Galatia, For am I now seeking the approval of man, or of God?

Or am I trying to please man?

If I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant of Christ.

Hi, I'm Mark Lukens, pastor of Providence Baptist Church.

We are a Reformed Baptist Church, and we hold to the London Baptist Confession of Faith of 1689.

We are in Norfolk, Massachusetts.

We strive to reflect Paul's mindset to be much more concerned with how God views what we say and what we do

than how men view these things.

That's not the best recipe for popularity, but since that wasn't the apostles' priority, it must not be ours either.

We believe, by God's grace, that we are called to demonstrate love and compassion to our fellow man, and to be

vessels of Christ's mercy to a lost and hurting community around us, and to build up the body of Christ in truth and

love.

If you live near Norfolk, Massachusetts, or plan to visit our area, please come and join us for worship and fellowship.

You can call us at 508 -528 -5750, that's 508 -528

-5750, or go to our website to email us, listen to past sermons, worship songs, or watch our TV

program entitled, Resting in Grace.

You can find us at providencebaptistchurchma .org, that's providencebaptistchurchma .org,

or even on sermonaudio .com.

Providence Baptist Church is.

Delighted to sponsor Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

Welcome back, this is Chris Arns, and if you just tuned us in, our guest today for the full two hours, with about one hour to go,

is Kathleen Kimball Milanakos, who is the author of Secret Combinations, Evidence of Early

Mormon Counterfeiting from 1800 to 1847, as she herself is a

former Mormon who came to discover the true Jesus Christ and true

gospel of the holy scriptures by his grace and mercy, and we are discussing this

fascinating book today.

If you'd like to join us on the air, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at

gmail .com, and we'll get to those of you who are patiently waiting to have your questions asked as soon as

possible, but before I return to the interview, I just want to remind you that this Friday and Saturday,

November 11th and 12th, God willing, I will be at the Doctrines of Grace

Conference in Quaker Town, Pennsylvania, sponsored by the Alliance of Confessing

Evangelicals.

The guest speakers include Dr. Joel Beeky, who's been a guest on Iron Sharpens Iron many times,

Anthony Carter, who I have interviewed, and Tony Merida, who I have not yet interviewed on

this program and hope to soon.

Richard Taylor and Timothy Whitmer are a couple of other speakers at this conference

that's this Friday and Saturday, November 11th and 12th, which will be held at the Grace Bible Fellowship

Church on Old Bethlehem Pike North in Quaker Town, Pennsylvania.

For more details on registering for this conference, go to alliancenet

.org.

That's alliancenet .org, and click on events at the top of the page.

The very first event you will see is the Doctrines of Grace Conference, and if you

register, please tell them that you heard about the conference from Iron Sharpens Iron Radio,

and we thank Bob Brady and everybody at the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals in Lancaster,

Pennsylvania, for all they do to spread the gospel of Jesus Christ, and I

thank you for your friendship with Iron Sharpens Iron as well.

We do have RJ from White Plains, New York, with a question for you,

Kathleen.

Okay.

He says that, I have heard that Joseph Smith, before his religious

experience and founding of the Mormon Church,.

Was also a trader and dealer of mummies.

Is that true?

Yes, he was.

Not specifically a dealer, but he was offered these

mummies, teen thirties, by this man named

Michael Chandler, who had brought them over for

papyri, so what Joseph

Smith did was buy them for,

he said, $2 ,000, the mummies with

the papyri, and

then he claimed that the

papyri, and at

that time there was nobody that could translate Egyptian, because they had not discovered

the Rosetta Stone, so he could say, you know, he

could say it was anything.

He did not say,

but then it turns out that the Rosetta Stone was

discovered, that they could translate Egyptian,

a funeral papyri for the god Osiris.

It has nothing to do with Abraham at

all.

So that is, you know, there's a Charles

Larson, by his own hand,

30 -year bestseller, explained in

there,

confirmed it has nothing to do with Abraham, so Joseph Smith, you know, he came

up with that.

He decided to call it, you know, the Book of Abraham, and they even would charge

people to see these mummies in the temple for showman

Joseph Smith.

You know, he would come up with a new thing, a new idea,

people would pay him, so, and to believe

in his translating ability, which

the Mormon Church tries to say, well, he never really, why did he call it a

translation?

That's one of

the biggest, a

lot of people get, come on,

they look at the, Charles

Larson endorsed my book, too.

He said it was great.

He was really fascinated by finding out.

That was another thing that Joseph

Smith, he counterfeited the Bible to write the Book of Mormon.

He wrote it in a way

like the Bible is,

counterfeiting money.

He counterfeited the Bible.

Yeah, but I encourage anybody to investigate it on their own.

Don't just take my word for it.

There's books about it, there's, you know, look for yourself, look at the Egyptian papyri

and see if it has anything to do with Abraham, so.

Well, thank you, R .J. in White.

Plains, and give us your full mailing address, if you will, because you have also won a copy, a

free copy, of Secret Combinations, Evidence of Early Mormon Counterfeiting from 1800

to 1847, compliments of our guest, Kathleen Kimball Malinakis, and also compliments

of Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, who will be shipping that out to you free of charge to us

and to you.

And our email address, if anybody else would like to join us, is chrisarnson at gmail .com,

chrisarnson at gmail .com.

And we do have, first we had R .J., now we have C .J. C .J. in

Lindenhurst, Long Island, New York, who wants to know, why is it that if

Joseph Smith has inspired or retranslated

the Bible, which the Mormons call the Joseph Smith version, why is

it that they don't use that regularly and prefer the King James, if he is their prophet?

That's a good question, too.

And the

story of

the inspired version

started, the

Bible wasn't perfectly correct, or

needed to be corrected, which is the

same thing Mohammed said, by the Bible can't be trusted, it's

been mistranslated.

I have a better version of it.

So he and Sidney Rigdon set out to change certain, he

prophesied himself in his inspired version, he, but

he left a lot of it the same.

So when he died, then when he, you know, he said in his own history

that he had finished

his translated, then

when he, his wife, Emma, his legal

wife, he had a legal wife,

Emma, took their

followers, they didn't like the

polygamy that

Joseph Smith had

started, and they

still don't.

So they can't really use that.

Oh, this is, I've never heard this story before.

Yeah!

Not only that, but if you look at the inspired, what he called

the inspired version,

you can't, you really can't believe it.

I mean, some of his so -called corrections that he made,

and it's just not very well done.

Anybody, any scholar looking at it,

Price, he just came up with stuff and put it in there.

He didn't translate anything, he didn't say what Hebrews

said, he made up things and put them in there.

So, yeah,

the reorganized Church

of Jesus

Christ of

Latter -day Saints changed their name just about,.

I don't know, five years ago or so, right?

They're the Community of Christ now, right?

Right, Community of Christ, and they have made a lot of admissions that

isn't claimed to be in the

they have a lot of...

Yeah,

and even going back before our modern era, if I'm not mistaken,.

They did not teach that faithful Mormons could

become gods.

Am I right on that?

They were not.

Polytheistic in their understanding of God?

You know, I am not sure about that.

I know they don't, they didn't build temples, like the Mormon Church.

What the temples are all about in the mainstream Mormon Church is becoming a god.

You must be temple worthy, you must be paying 10 of your income in

tithing to get in the temple, you

must be in the highest kingdom of heaven, which is where you become a god.

You do that through temple work and living all the other laws that they require that

you live.

So you must be married in the temple, have a celestial marriage, you

know, you must qualify to get into the temple to become a god, and that's what the

temples are all about.

But they don't say that.

They never say that right up front when they're just talking to a new investigator.

In fact, they...

I've had missionaries come right out and deny.

I've been to the

temple, don't deny it.

Really?

Because I know for a fact that that's.

What you teach.

That's interesting because I wouldn't think that they would lie about something like that that's

pertinent and central to their faith.

I know that when I had an encounter with two Mormon

missionaries in my home in the late 1980s, it

was interesting.

There was a young Mormon missionary and an older man with him, and I thought the older man was going to be the brains

of the two that he brought along to back him up, but it was exactly the opposite.

The young Mormon knew a lot more about the Mormon religion than the

older man, and every time I would bring something up

like that, like the ability to become a god and a god of your own planet,

the older man kept repeating in a robotic -like way,

you must have heard something that is not true about the Mormon church from someone who does

not like us, perhaps a ex -Mormon or someone who has an agenda against

us, but that is not what we believe.

It was like a rehearsed... and the younger Mormon kept saying, very embarrassed, no that's what we believe.

But the one thing that he got very angry about, and that's when he packed up his stuff

and was storming out of my living room, was when I brought up the fact that Brigham Young clearly

taught that Christ, in Mormonism, according to Brigham Young,

that Christ was conceived as a result of a sexual union between Mary and

God, who tabernacled in flesh, and that's when he was denying that

the Mormons teach that, and I later gave him the documentation of it over the

phone, and I don't know if he ever bothered to investigate that or not.

Well that is absolutely the case.

It's right in the Journal of Discourses, which is the speeches given by Brigham Young in

General Conference, which it says right on the jacket, leaf of it, that this is to

be considered Scripture.

Right, well what I have understood from Mormon or Christian apologists who deal with Mormonism

is that that is not something that is widely taught today as it was before.

So that's why this young Mormon missionary probably just never heard that in reality.

He probably was not lying to me, because he affirmed everything else.

Well, we had Mormon missionaries, the visiting teachers from our local ward, come to our house

recently, because they need to check off that they're doing their home teaching, they

call it.

Have them come over, and we're happy to talk to them.

And the newly converted said

that he didn't even think that the Mormon

Church teaches that it's the only true church, which of course that it, I mean,

throughout its beginning it has said that it is the only true church, and all the other Christian

churches are an abomination.

That's right.

Yeah, this is a new PR approach, because about six

months ago a couple of different Mormon missionaries, other than the ones that I just

recently bumped into, I was walking down the street here in my hometown of Carlisle, Pennsylvania

again, and I saw from a distance three young men with white shirts, black ties, and name

badges.

And I called out to them, are you Mormons?

And they said, yes.

And I said, hold up.

And I had a conversation with them, and one of the young Mormon missionaries

told me something that I had never heard from them before.

He said, you've probably heard that the Mormons believe that we're the only true church, but that's not true.

We're Christians just like you.

We just have some differences, and we believe that we have the fullness of truth, but we don't think that we're the only

true Christians.

He was denying something that had been the core of their religion

since the 1800s.

And I told him that.

I said, do you realize that what you're saying is a very new and novel approach

from your own religion?

That ever since its inception, the main claim was that all the churches

were false, and that Joseph Smith was told by the angel.

By the angel, yeah.

Yeah, that's why the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter -day Saints even began to begin with, is

because every other religion, including all other Christian denominations, were false.

Right, you're absolutely right.

And they did not want to get into any conversation about doctrine or history.

They really just wanted to have a really wonderful, nice conversation about how

swell it is to be a Mormon without much depth to it.

But by the way, CJ, CJ in Lindenhurst, Long Island, New York, give us your full mailing address, and you

also have won a free copy of Secret Combinations, Evidence of Early Mormon

Counterfeiting from 1800 to 1847, compliments of our guest Kathleen Kimball

Milanakos, the author of this book, and it'll be shipped out to you by CVBBS .com,

Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service.

And we're going to go to our final break right now, so if anybody else would like to join us with a question of your own,

our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Don't go away.

We'll be right back after these messages.

Each year, thousands of high school and college students come and learn more about God's Word.

An additional 9 ,000 come annually to Harvey Cedars as families, couples,

singles, men, women, pastors, seniors, and missionaries.

90 miles from New York City, 70 miles from Philly, and 95 miles from Wilmington,

and easily accessible, scores of notable Christian groups frequently plan conferences at

Harvey Cedars, like the Navigators, InterVarsity Christian Fellowship, Campus

Crusade, and the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals.

Find Harvey Cedars on Facebook or at hcbible .org,

hcbible

.org.

Call 609 -494 -5689, 609 -494 -5689.

Harvey Cedars, where Christ finds people and changes lives.

Lindbrook Baptist Church on 225 Earl Avenue in Lindbrook, Long Island, is teaching God's timeless truths in

the 21st century.

Our church is far more than a Sunday worship service.

It's a place of learning where the scriptures are studied and the preaching of the gospel is clear and relevant.

It's like a gym where one can exercise their faith through community involvement.

It's like a hospital for wounded souls where one can find compassionate people and healing.

We're a diverse family of all ages.

Enthusiastically serving our Lord Jesus Christ.

In fellowship, play, and together.

Hi, I'm Pastor Bob Walderman, and I invite you to come and join us here at Lindbrook Baptist Church and see all that a church can

be.

Call Lindbrook Baptist at 516 -599 -9402.

That's 516 -599 -9402.

Or visit lindbrookbaptist .org.

That's lindbrookbaptist .org.

Chris Arnzen here, and I can't wait to head down to Atlanta, Georgia.

And here's my friend, Dr. James White, to tell you why.

Hi, I'm James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries.

I hope you join me at the G3 Conference hosted by Pastor Josh Bice and Praise Mill Baptist Church at

the Georgia International Convention Center in Atlanta, January 19th through the 21st, in

celebration of the 500th anniversary of the Protestant Reformation.

I'll be joined by Paul Washer, Steve Lawson, D .A. Carson, Voti Baucom, Conrad Mbewe,

Phil Johnson, Rosaria Butterfield, Todd Friel, and a host of other speakers who are dedicated to the

pillars of what G3 stands for, gospel, grace, and glory.

For more details, go to g3conference .com.

That's g3conference .com.

Thanks, James.

Make sure you greet me at the Iron Sharpens Iron exhibit booth while you're there.

Welcome back.

This is Chris Arnzen.

If you just tuned us in for the last 90 minutes in the next half hour to come, our guest has been and

will be today Kathleen Kimball Milonakos, the author of Secret

Combinations, Evidence of Early Mormon Counterfeiting from 1800 to 1847.

And if you'd like to join us on the air with a question, our email address is chrisarnzen at gmail .com,

chrisarnzen at gmail .com.

And I hate to use the phrase speak of the devil because this is a good friend of mine,

but Pastor Jason Wallace has just joined us with a question.

Pastor Jason Wallace, who we mentioned earlier, pastor of Christ Presbyterian Church in Magna,

Utah, near Salt Lake City.

He says, tell Kathleen she's always welcome to visit with us.

And he asks, uh, ask Kathleen if she covers the new

Israelites in her book.

We do.

Yes.

Oh, it's really nice to hear from Pastor Jason.

Yeah.

I have been to his church and I've listened to some of his debates

online.

Those are really interesting.

I do cover the new Israelites.

I put the title of the book, 1800

to 1847, because that

he

told about this as the

neighbors

participated

in this

group, as did William

had been in this many of

the

neighbors,

just Winchell in his home, which meant that he would have been an accessory to

that kind of crime.

And he would have been a member of an oath bound group because counterfeiters only associated

with other counterfeiters.

You didn't

just harbor

a counterfeiter in your home, unless you

were in on the

actors

as if divining

rods, you know, they had these magic divining to pay money to get the

revelations from the divining rods from the same man

that was no was wanted for counterfeiting in a couple of states, or at least in

a few counties in Vermont, what they would do is

pretend to get these revelations from divining rods, get fees from people for it

while they were doing their counterfeiting.

And it was a cover up.

So yeah, I do cover that in my

whole 1800 because it went the parents of

the already doing counterfeiting.

And so this is a group,

the new Israelites that it was a different cult,.

A separate cult from what would later become known as the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter -day.

Saints.

Right.

It was way before the Book of Mormon.

It was the Book of Mormon was 1830.

But many people when the Book of Mormon came out and and saw who it was founded by, and you know,

they remembered, they said, Oh, you know, this new Mormon group

was very similar to what happened earlier in Vermont in 1800.

They call themselves the new Israelites,

these relations to pay money to get these

revelations.

And yet, and all these features, of course, you know, when

you when you're getting these magic revelations, you

would come up

with these, God was

going to

rain down thunder from the sky, and, and you better be ready, and

they're going to be saved from it.

Poor people of Middletown, the non -participant

people as being very disruptive

leaders of the town had to put

the town under martial law to keep

creating some chaos on prophecy.

And right, you know, the other towns, people that were not participating,

finally kicked the people out of town because they were causing too much trouble.

They were defrauding the people, they were

counterfeiting, and they had

used some of the same language, you know, they were

descended from

God.

Apparently, that is where Joseph Smith's father got the idea.

Oh, so I

didn't even realize that Joseph Smith's father was also involved in aberrant religion.

Well, yeah, aberrant religion and counterfeiting, see that it was, it was a cover

-up.

And Joseph Smith's father got arrested twice in Vermont for

counterfeiting.

There it is, right in the Supreme Court records, he was arrested as a passer, but he, he

got off because he, he informed on his buddies, so then he didn't have to go to jail, but

the other person had passed him the counterfeit money.

See, there were all these different levels, the CEO head, and

there were the manufacturers, the receivers of the

stolen goods, and of the

anybody that was dealing at all

in any counterfeits.

You didn't just have to be manufacturing counterfeit money.

If you were dealing at all in counterfeit money, you, it was a felony.

So even if you just passed one bill to one person with, with the intent to defraud,

you had to know that you were passing, then you would go to jail.

You could easily, unless you informed on your other buddies to get off, to get, so you

wouldn't have a penalty, because the only, that's the only way anyone ever got caught,

right, against, you

were oath -bound not to

rat on your buddies because the group might go to jail.

You know, Joseph

Smith Sr., the evidence is pretty strong.

Well, well,.

Pastor Jason, thank you so much for joining us on the air with a question, and you are getting

your, you are getting our final copy, our final free copy of Secret Combinations,

Evidence of Early Mormon Counterfeiting from 1800 to 1847 by our guest Kathleen Kimball.

Milanakos, obviously a Greek name, right?

Yeah, my husband,.

His grandparents came over in the 1920s, so he's third generation.

But yeah, I'm looking forward to visiting with you, Jason, when the next time we're in Salt Lake.

And Jason, if you could give.

Me your best mailing address to have Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service ship this book out to

you, I will look forward to getting that address from you, and I will have

cvbbs .com mail the book to you as soon as possible.

So let's summarize what we've been going through, and first of all, I don't know if you've ever given me an

explanation of the first part of the title,.

Secret Combinations.

What is that coming from?

Well, that is Mormon.

So in the Book of Mormon, Joseph

condemns

secret

beginning.

They swore to each other loyalty not

to tell their secrets, and you know, the early Mormons were

characterized by secret oaths, and

said they had secret from the beginning.

The whole Mormon story is

very...

Yeah,

I believe

that when

Joseph Smith.

Was barricaded in the building with the

vigilantes outside, wanting to imprison him or execute him,

he was giving some kind of a Mormon morse code or

something like.

That.

It was a Masonic cry of distress.

Masonic, I meant, right?

I'm sorry.

Right.

Well, and it's all in my book about what Masonry was in early America, how

it influenced the anti

-Masonic movement

in 1826, and through 27, the Book of Mormon arose

out of that anti -Masonic movement, where the country was

becoming more deistic.

Second Awakening happened with Charles

Spinney, and thousands of people joined churches.

So then there was this culture war, but the Mormons came out of what

the consequences of the Second Awakening and

anti -Masonic movement.

And so if you want to read more about it, it's all in there.

I found it really fascinating.

But Joseph Smith's fast -Sonic group, more as a

fraternity with a Christian stamp on it...

Right.

Yeah, I mean, there's nothing in the Bible that says.

That we are to have secret ceremonies and all these types of

mysterious cryptic...

Yeah, yeah, I mean, that's ridiculous.

I mean, the only thing that Christians are supposed to keep private are the private lives of

members of the church, that, you know, you're not going to be spreading

the secrets of members of the church around.

Right, right.

And Jesus said, I taught openly in the synagogue.

I did nothing in secret.

I've been open and honest, you know, my whole ministry.

I've been careful with what people have told me.

Of course, you do that.

You use discretion.

But yeah, all the secret...

In the Book of Mormon, it denounces the secret combinations, and everyone at that time would have

known that that referred to the Freemasons.

And there's a whole paper on that.

Dan Vogel recognized that.

Other historians have written that,

yes, it was a revelation of his own.

Now, going back to the counterfeiting aspect, so this was

practiced, according to the evidence you have seen, even after

the founding of the Mormon Church.

This was not like something that, like, you know, there are a great multitude of

Christians who have all kinds of sordid, ugly

pasts before they became born -again believers.

I mean, you have everything you can think of from adulterers to drug addicts and

drunkards to serial killers on death row who have converted,

but this is different.

You're saying that this was something that was being carried on by.

Alleged prophets and so on.

Right, he declared himself...

Well, in this lifestyle in Vermont, his father

got

arrested.

He came to where other people from the woodscrape

come over in New York, and they hooked up with

Justice Wintle again, hobnobbing with in

Vermont.

When Joseph Smith got into his seer stone scene,

getting paid to see...

He did that until he got in trouble when

he had to...

That's when, shortly after that, is when he came up with the Book of Mormon, and they

worked on that.

He

comes out as a prophet of the biblical God, as he claimed in 1830, and

now he has this sign of authority, the Book of

Mormon.

Angel came to him.

He said he was the father.

He never said at that

time that he had seen God the

Father as a

Christian preacher.

So then, they had to leave New York.

They were probably doing counterfeiting, but

then in...

There's a lot of evidence that he and his inner circle, key officers

in Ohio, his

main officers

were...

It's right in

the Mormon record.

They talk about each other being in counterfeiting.

He continued it, and

then it continued more in

Missouri.

High -ranking

leaders, soldiers in,

that's why they had to leave to go to Utah.

He did ever have any kind of repentant experience where he turned his

life to the Lord and really was a sincere

Christian believer in God, and especially if he claims to be a

prophet, he kept doing all his illegal activities for

years after.

Now,

was this something that was known by the average follower, the average

Mormon disciple,.

Or was this something that was secretive amongst the leadership?

Definitely, it was secretive among the leadership.

There were many sincere followers that believed

him.

If you weren't

really

schooled in the

Bible, you would...

And so, there were the sincere believers on the

outside, and then there were the secret oath -bound accomplices.

On the inside.

Now, do you know whether or not these Mormon leaders were committing

these crimes, thinking with sincerity that God was

blessing them?

For instance, there are cults and false religions, like even Muslims, who are taught

that it is very appropriate to lie to the enemies of Allah or the

enemies of whatever cult that anybody happens to be in.

They will be taught that things like that are not sinful or wicked

because they're being done to advance the cause of any particular false religion or cult

that they may be in.

Is this something that was similar here, or were these men just men who knew what they were doing

was through and through a wicked deed, and therefore, they

had no

approval from even their religious ideology for what they were doing?

Well, it's hard to know exactly what people had as their motivation,

and in Islam, they call it the cause of Islam

first.

I've heard Takiyah.

Takiyah, okay, that's what it is.

Yeah, I pronounced it wrong.

But yeah, it's justifying telling falsehoods in order to protect

you, or they did that, and they called it lying for the

Lord.

I think

people

that

often become the

key people who

report

was counterfeiting, he said.

Joseph Smith had great faith that he believed,

you know, he'd

done it so

long, confunctions about it.

So who knows, you know, when you're in a really sinful...

Yes, the conscience is seared, and God turns people over to their

wicked delusions.

Exactly, and you don't even know what's right or wrong anymore.

He was a

prophet

that he was

doing that with

God.

We do have another listener in Indianapolis, Indiana, Aaron,.

Who, and this is, you touched on this in regard to your family, but I don't think that you touched on this in regard

to the Mormon church.

She says, did Kathleen and her husband encounter repercussions

from the Mormon church when they left, or repercussion for exposing their Mormon.

Secrets

in her

book?

Did not call us in to be excommunicated,

moved

away from

most of my relatives

the job, so distance that was not...

He just stopped having a lot

in common after a while, too, so I can't say that they were,

you know, they didn't include us.

Now, you know, I wanted to keep kind of a low profile

while I was doing all this research, and I did, and now my book's out there,

you know, I haven't

seen any attacks, but then there's such a large

number of people that are also ex -Mormons,

have become Christians, you know, I'm just one, I'm one of them.

I'm adding to what is already, he already has

so much exposed about him with his polygamy and with his,

and that he's on a number of counts, so

I'm just adding to what's already out there,

you know, that you still get

more repercussions, I don't know.

Well, we pray that any kind of repercussion that you may receive only leads people to the true

Christ and gospel of the scriptures, and

we do have Harrison in Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania, who wants to know, I

heard earlier in the program that your family had connections with the fundamentalist

polygamists within Mormonism.

I was wondering if you've ever heard of Irene Spencer and also

Brian Mackert, who were also members of the polygamist fundamentalist Mormons

and became born -again Christians, and I have actually interviewed both of them.

I've interviewed Irene Spencer at least twice, and I interviewed Brian Mackert, who I think is

her nephew or some other relation to Irene, but if you could, do you know these folks?

I don't know Irene Spencer,.

But I do know of Brian Mackert, and I've seen him on Doris Hanson's show, Polygamy, What Love Is

This?, and it is one of the big reasons that I went through all the trouble of writing

this book, because my heart goes out to the people in the polygamy groups, especially, you know, having

gone through that with my family that goes on

there, and if you want to know an evil system, I mean, if you think

slavery is a bad system, polygamy is in that

children born into it, no freedom.

They are abused, they

have that mindset, they don't get an

education in

those groups, and I feel so sorry for them that they

believe that that's from God.

Well, I want to make sure, before we run out of time, Kathleen, that you give one more time.

The website where people can order this book.

Amazon .com, the secret combinations evidence,

www .mormoncounterfeiting .com, Utah

Lighthouse,

Minnesota.

Benchmark books in Salt Lake City.

And your own website is mormoncounterfeiting .com.

Yep.

Okay, mormoncounterfeiting .com, and you can also go to

cvbbs .com and ask them to order it as well, since they sponsor our program.

I feel obliged to mention them.

Cvbbs .com, cv for Cumberland Valley, bbs for BibleBookService .com.

Thank you so much for being our guest today, Kathleen.

I look forward to having you back.

Oh, I'd love to.

I thank everybody who took the time to write, and I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that

Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior than you are a sinner.