Mormon Sleight Of Hand And Abuse

about the Bible, and specifically, or along with that, what we point to as the foundation of faith, which for most

Christians, unfortunately, is the Bible. We need to do better.

We need to love God with all our hearts and stand unashamedly on the rock of His Word. We need to love the

Lord with all of our souls and respond to the worldview issues of our day with the wisdom and discernment that comes only from Him.

We need to love the Lord with our minds and understand the calling of God's people in every area of life in God's world.

We need to love the Lord our God with all our strength and face the work of building a life -giving, God -honoring culture.

Join us for 10 days at the Runner Academy for Cultural Leadership as we consider how the Gospel influences all of life and culture, and the role that we have to play in applying foundational

Christian thinking to every area of life. This is

The Academy. I am Eli Ayala of Revealed Apologetics, and I will be bringing a six -part series on presuppositional apologetics.

What is this called? The Apology Academy? It's just called The Academy. Okay. What's up everybody?

My name is Pastor Jeff Durbin, and you're watching Collision Today. I'm gonna be interacting with an atheist on TikTok.

So here we go. Unsupervised and unhinged. Welcome back to Cultish the

Aftermath. Hey everybody, welcome back to another episode of Ask Me Anything.

You are watching Apologia Radio's after show exclusively for all access.

Non -rockabotas must stop. I don't want to rock the boat. I want to sink it. Are you gonna bark all day, little doggie?

Or are you gonna bite? We're being delusional. Delusional, yeah. Delusional's okay in your worldview.

I'm an animal. You don't chastise chickens for being delusional. You don't chastise pigs for being delusional. So you calling me delusional using your worldview is perfectly okay.

It doesn't really hurt. She hung up on me. What? What? What?

Desperate times call for faithful men and not for careful men. The careful men come later and write the biographies of the faithful men, lauding them for their courage.

Go into all the world and make disciples. Not go into the world and make buddies. Not to make brosives. Right. Don't go into the world and make homies.

Right. Disciples. I got a bit of a jiggle neck. That's a joke,

Pastor. When we have the real message of truth, we cannot let somebody say they're speaking truth when they're not.

Take an amazing journey so you will never be the same.

Isaiah 43 10. Ye are my witnesses, sayeth the Lord, my servant whom I have chosen that you know and believe me and understand that I am he.

Before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

What's up everybody? Welcome back to another episode of Apology Radio. This is the gospel heard around the world.

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Glory to God for that. Jehovah's Witnesses are. Atheists. People are coming out of drug and alcohol addiction. And babies are being saved literally from death because of your help in this ministry.

So thank you. That's Luke the Bear. What up? I'm Jeff the Common Ninja. And this guy over here is

Daniel. Yeah, that's me. That's right. Daniel's son. Daniel's son. Constantino.

And you decided to wear a shirt to specifically offend us. We're trying to be taken serious here.

I know how much you guys love it. That's why I wore it. We both look like idiots today. You're wearing that shirt and I'm wearing a Mickey Mouse shirt.

It's a cool Mickey Mouse shirt. It's a cool Mickey Mouse shirt though. Yeah, you did pick it out and Candy was like, oh, look what Luke bought on Amazon.

I'm going to buy that too. So I told Luke when he came in, I'm just so glad that you didn't just happen to wear it because we would look ridiculous if you wore the same.

One of these shirts is manly. The other one is for kids. I'll let you guys decide which one is which.

We're going to do a debate on Star Wars and which one's actually for kids. Just for the record that it does say

Mickey Mouse in kanji. I looked it up to be sure. My wife was like, are you sure that's what it says? And I'm like, yeah, of course.

It's from and then you went to look it up. Good. All right. Mickey Mouse. It's a classic Mickey Mouse, too.

That's some old school days of the old school Disney. Well, they're learning a lesson, though. I mean, they have kicked out that CEO.

They were like, you're killing us here, bro. And they so they got the other one back. So hopefully things simmer down, simmer down, simmer, you know, go, go broke.

Right. Is that what people say? Yep. That's what we say. That's what they say. So anyway, we have a lot to do today. We are going to give you the second part of a response to thoughtful faith where he engages on the issue of the nature of God.

And he pulls some quotes from he quote mines from Heizer. It did not go well for him. And so we're going to we're going to go into that today.

But before we do something very important to share with you guys, many of you guys have been part of this ministry with us for end abortion.

Now you've been with us. You've partnered with us. Tens of thousands of lives have been saved literally over all of these years with all of these hundreds of churches who have been equipped and trained to go out with the gospel to save lives at the mills.

And many of you guys know we've been working with pastors and Christians and churches across the country on bills of equal protection across the country.

This last legislative session was incredible. I don't think everyone's aware of just how awesome it has been to have like 15 bills or I might even have that wrong or more put in this last session of abolition and equal protection, a truly

Christian bill without partiality, equal protection for all humans from the moment of fertilization.

And so that has been happening in this last session. And as always, it is the establishment, the pro -life establishment that has either resisted the bills or killed the bills across the country, forced them to not even get hearings, which is sort of common fare for this fight.

However, Missouri, Missouri and Texas, both states, because of the faithful work of Christians who are being consistent in those states, they were both able to get a bill of equal protection in their house and their

Senate, both chambers. Missouri has one house and Senate, and guess what? All glory to God, the

Senate bill is getting a hearing next Wednesday in Missouri. You need to be there. So I'm going to bring in Wesley Scroggins.

He's a big part of what's happening there in Missouri right now. He's on the phone with us. I think he's actually driving back right now from the

Capitol. Wesley, welcome to Apology Radio, brother. Hey, thanks for having me. Nice to see you guys.

It is great to hear from you and an honor to have you on, brother. We're so grateful for the faithful work that you guys are doing there in Missouri, and praise

God, a bill of equal protection in both the House and the Senate, both chambers, is absolutely incredible.

It's such an answer to prayer. We were begging God for this years and years and years ago, and look what is happening.

I don't think people understand how incredible this moment is for the church. But brother, can you let us know what is happening in Missouri right now?

Yeah, well, some good things are happening here. As you mentioned, Pastor, we've got a bill in both chambers of the legislature.

And unfortunately, our House bill hasn't moved, and that's been pretty common with bills in the

House this legislative session. There's not many of them at all that have moved, and that has just been at the discretion of the speaker, who has just not allowed that.

On the Senate side, our Senate bill, it is SB356, is the number on the bill.

And that bill has moved into the Health and Welfare Committee, and it is scheduled for a hearing next

Wednesday, May 3rd, at 930. And so that's where we are.

We are needing to just call everybody to Jefferson City, the state capital in Missouri, and get abolitionists there, and get support for SB356.

Absolutely, brother, and I think I want to really encourage everyone to take seriously what

Wesley is saying right now, that we need believers there. You need to take a stand.

This is such an incredible moment for the church. Again, to have the Christian church rising up with fidelity towards Jesus, the gospel, and scripture, speaking with a prophetic voice to the legislature, not with neutrality, speaking consistently, and putting these bills in, it is an incredible moment.

And to have a bill in both chambers is an amazing thing. But we need you there.

We need you there. You need to be with us in Missouri. I'm going. I'm going to show there to offer support to the churches and pastors and the team on the ground there that's been working so hard for this and so faithfully for this.

So I'm going to be there, and Abortion Now is going to be there. We're going to try to give you guys some content from there so you can be praying and know what's going on.

But as Wesley said, we need you there. And so it is, brother, you said 930 a .m.,

Jefferson City, and what's the bill number again? The bill number is Senate Bill or SB356.

And it's in the Health and Welfare Committee, and we also need people calling several of those senators that are on that committee.

And that includes the chair, which is Senator Mary Elizabeth Coleman. We need the vote.

We need the vote of Senator Carter, Senator Gannon, and Senator Thompson Rader.

We need the votes from those senators. And so their phone numbers are easy to find on the

Senate website. And also you can find the committee with their contact information there too at the committee site.

But they need to hear from us, and you are correct. The church has to stand here.

The church has to stand up. We have to make our voices heard, and that's what these senators are going to listen to, the voice of the people.

If they don't hear from us, they're not going to act. That's exactly right. That's exactly right. Take that seriously, guys. Listen, this thing is not abolished yet in the country.

We are not anywhere near done. It is legal in every single state. Don't let anybody deceive you. It is legal in every single state in our union.

Roe v. Wade falling did not stop it. And so we have a lot of work to do. We need to do it consistently as Christians.

So 930 a .m., Jefferson City, next Wednesday, May the 3rd, I am going to be there with our team to offer support to the guys that are out there in Missouri working so faithfully on this.

So come join me. Would you do that? I mean, if you're able to get to Jefferson City next Wednesday, come say hi.

Come shake hands. Let's pray together. Let's work together as the church, as Christian churches.

If you're in surrounding states and you can make it to Jefferson City, your body being there is a very big deal. Let me just say a note on what

Wesley is talking about and coming and standing there being a presence. I can tell you right now that when we were in Louisiana last year, we had

Christians from all over the country that showed up, all over Louisiana, of course, but all over the country, and there were so many believers there.

It was a force to be reckoned with. There were only maybe two or three pro -choicers there that day that showed up to resist.

The rest was all believers, and it was so incredible. People were singing worship songs and hymns and praying.

Let me tell you, the legislators there that day were shaking.

Numerous of them, several of them were actually crying, were literally crying, coming to us and saying, can you please tell your people to stop calling me?

Can you please? They were under such deep conviction from the people of God calling them that it was such a challenge to them.

They were literally in tears, in tears, because the people of God are being so faithful, so consistent. Be there.

Call. Listen to what Wesley says. He needs your support. You've got to take the time to stand for these children in Missouri and make those phone calls.

Just spend a day for just an hour to just make those phone calls. Send the emails.

Tell them to do what's right before God. Tell them you support them. Tell them to be consistent, and then please show up.

Stand there with us next Wednesday, May 3rd, 930 a .m., at the hearing for this very important bill.

Wesley, thank you, brother, for all your faithfulness. Hey, well, hey, thank you for all you all are doing and for your support and for having me on the radio show.

Absolutely. It's our honor. Look forward to seeing you next week. I look forward to seeing you too, brother.

Thank you for all you're doing. God bless you. You too. Thank you. Thank you. All right. Be there, guys.

As soon as we found out that we got a hearing, these things get killed so easily, and so we found out we got a hearing, it was like, get the tickets.

We're going. Let's make this happen. Tell everybody in your network that it's happening. Tell your pastor that it's happening. If you're in Missouri or the surrounding states right now, tell your pastor.

Tell your church leaders. Tell everybody, get a van and show up. Be there on the ground.

I cannot tell you how impactful that is for you to be present the day of the hearing.

Both moments. One, when the hearing took place in Louisiana, that place was filled with Christians because I did what

I'm doing right now. We made the call, show up to the hearing in Louisiana, and that place was filled in the room and in the hallways, filled with Christians.

And those legislators, they saw the bill, they knew it was consistent, and that's why it completely sailed through the hearing the way that it did, because they were like, man, this is the will of the people, and this bill is consistent.

They were like, absolutely we're passing this bill. That's what Seabum said. And then the day of the vote, it was incredible how many

Christians showed up from all over the country and all over Louisiana. It made a big difference. So yes, yes, yes, it will make a difference for you to be there.

We have to make sure we are light. Don't hide your light. Show up on this day for this important bill, and I will be there as well.

So I'll see you next Wednesday, May 3rd, 9 .30 a .m., Jefferson City. So there you go. That's the start.

Let's go. Let's do it. We've got limited time. Yeah, I know we do. We've got to go fast, and it's a longer video, so we're going to do our best to get through as much as we can today.

So here's the situation. There is a channel called Thoughtful Faith. Jacob is the person who's running the channel.

He's in most of the videos. You did a debate. You and Oscar debated. Jacob and Hayden at Apologia Church.

The title of the debate, again, was the scripture. On what authority should we believe? On what authority should we believe?

So if you go to Apologia Studios, you can check out the debate between Daniel and Oscar, our boys, and Hayden.

Are you mad because he has the name Hayden? No. Does that bother you? No. Hayden and Jacob. He's not my favorite

Hayden. Yeah. So Jacob did a— and it's interesting. I'll just say as quickly as I can.

Jacob did a response video to what is basically an online tract for us. Respectfully, Jacob could have chosen a number of other extensive videos to have actual interaction with what's being said, but he chose basically a bullet point tract, online tract, to engage with.

So last week, if you didn't see the show, last week we did a— the title of the video is a refutation of a

Mormon's refutation of Jeff Durbin. It was last week's episode of Apologia Radio. We refuted

Jacob's claims there. Top to bottom, didn't miss anything, contrary to Jacob's claims.

We didn't miss anything, and Jacob, it's a full refutation. There's no way out of the refutation that was given to you last week.

You just got it wrong. And so that was last week. He engaged with the first point, and it was on the great apostasy.

The second video he does is on the nature of God. And I told you all that this particular video displays a lot of what has been common for the

Christian church in engaging with Mormon apologists over the last generation. You can see this problem all the way back,

I said, to the days of Walter Martin, when Walter Martin engaged with what was their most popular apologist of the 80s, and that was

Van Hale. And you see it in Dr. James White's debate with Martin Tanner on can men become gods.

And what you see is the common problem is the methodology of Mormon apologists where they will try to rewrite history, redefine terms, or they'll quote mine from people and take them fully out of context and try to spin what they say so it looks like the person is saying something that they're actually not.

And I mentioned, and some people had a problem that I led with this last week, but I was just trying to lay down a historical study for you so you understand that this is a common problem with it.

I mentioned that I have a great deal of respect for a lot of opponents of the Christian faith, a great deal of respect for a lot of men who attack the

Christian faith and argue against it, because they're men who try their best to have integrity and to represent history and others accurately.

And what I was saying last week was that I struggled with Jacob's videos, and I continue to struggle with them, because of the misrepresentation, the sleight of hand, the redefinitions that take place.

And in this particular video, I'm gonna demonstrate to you that Jacob actually abuses

Michael Heiser. Michael Heiser, to introduce you to him, wrote a very famous book, The Unseen Realm.

Michael Heiser is with the Lord now. He is a Trinitarian Christian with Jesus, a hardcore

Trinitarian Christian with Jesus. It seems that Jacob might have missed all of that.

But Michael Heiser just recently went to be with the Lord about two months or less ago, and Jacob pulls quotes from Heiser, not understanding

Heiser, and you're gonna see his abuse of Heiser in just a little bit here. So, before we go, anybody wanna say anything?

Yeah, I was just gonna say, just to show Jacob, I'm sure he's gonna watch this, because he watched the last one, just to show, you know, we wanna be humble, wanted to apologize, because we didn't realize that it was the same

Jacob that debated Daniel and Oscar. So, our sincerest apologies. I didn't realize it was you when we were interacting last week, and I would have certainly mentioned that if I realized it.

Yeah. Daniel, any words before we start? No, we should just get to the video. Let's get to it. Okay, here we go. So, here is, well, let me play this here.

This is just an example of what I was saying in terms of the rewriting of history, the quote mining. It's something that Martin said to Van Halen in their debate.

He says it twice, actually, the last time a little more firmly. But here's just a little historical study of the methodology of Mormon apologists.

This seems to be a common theme among them of the passages. The Anchor Bible is a very scholarly work, but the

Anchor Bible is not considered seriously in the area of Orthodox Christian theology. And the great majority of the

Church for 1 ,700 years is in Orthodox theology. It is what I am saying, what

I am preaching, and what I am teaching. And it would be possible to parade 100 scholars up here right now from major denominations, including the

Roman Catholic Church, who would confirm what I am saying to Mr. Hale's satisfaction. Mormonism is a polytheistic, pagan, eternally polygamous cult which arose in the 19th century and was recognized by the

Christian Church for what it was. The horror of it is that nice, decent, genuine people have been deceived by another

Jesus, another spirit, and another gospel. It is the task of the Christian Church to love the

Mormons and to rebuke Mr. Hale and people like him who are trying to rewrite history, rewrite the

Fathers, and redefine biblical terminology, and they shall not be permitted to do so. So that's just a little clip.

I highly encourage you to go and check out the debate with Dr. Walter Martin and Van Hale.

You can see that Martin was dealing with some of the same problems that we see with Mormon apologists today, the exact same things.

And Martin, of course, in the debate does demonstrate that. But all that to say, let's lead in now to this conversation.

The title of the video, if you want to go watch it, is Jeff Durbin Destroyed with Facts and Logic, Part 2,

The Nature of God, and let's get right into it. So in this series, we are addressing the three main arguments of Jeff Durbin's video,

The Gospel for Mormons. In the previous video, we took apart his view that an apostasy of the early church was not possible.

And now we will examine his critiques about the Latter -day Saint notions about the nature of God.

It really is about God. It really is about the gospel. You see, the

Bible says in Isaiah 43, 10, Before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

In Isaiah 44, 6, I am the first and I am the last. Besides me there is no

God. God says in Isaiah 44, 8, Is there a God besides me? Indeed, there is no other

God. I know not one. Ah, the classic verses in Isaiah. Yes, Jeff, we're well aware of these verses.

Unfortunately, Jeff shows his lack of understanding of ancient Hebrew idioms. I'm going to defer to...

So quickly, that's not a response to those verses. I want to point that out again.

You did that last week in the episode we demonstrated your first video. Just waving the hand at the verses isn't an engagement with the verses.

You have to substantiate the claim. Now you're going to try to in a moment by abusing Heizer. And you do abuse him and you clearly don't understand

Heizer. You're ignorant of this whole discussion itself and you quote mind from Heizer and you abused him.

And like I said, it is a fact that if Heizer were alive today, I had communicated with him before.

We weren't close friends, but I know he's Trinitarian. I know what the man believes. I've read his works and you misrepresented him.

Heizer, I would fly him out to be in studio with us to refute what you said.

He would tell you that you abused him. So we're going to see that in a moment here. But I just want to point out to you,

Jacob, that that wasn't an engagement with those verses. Isaiah 43 10. Are you ready? Before me, there was no

God formed. Neither shall there be after me. He clearly, God is clearly not talking about false gods there.

Okay. Before me, there was no false God formed. Neither shall there be any false God formed after me. Yeah, there were plenty of false gods formed after God.

So he's not talking about false gods. Is he talking about what Heizer's talking about? Do you even know what Heizer's context was?

Heavenly beings, supernatural beings that are of a different species than God. Is he talking about heavenly beings?

Okay, ready? There was no heavenly being formed after me and no heavenly being formed. Oh, sorry.

Before me and no heavenly being formed after me. Actually, that doesn't work either because there were heavenly beings formed after God.

God created them. So when he says, before me, there was no God formed and neither shall there be any

God formed after me. What kind of God is he talking about? A true God, the living

God, the eternal God, the creator God, the only God. So you're abusing the text.

You're abusing Heizer. You have no response. You cannot, you cannot engage with Isaiah 43 .10.

Nor can you engage with Isaiah 44 .6. I am the first and I am the last. Besides me, there is no God.

He's not talking about other heavenly beings there. He's talking about he's the first and the last.

There is no other God. Now, Jacob, be honest. Have integrity here, my friends. You don't believe either of those things.

You don't believe God's the first God. You don't believe God's the last God, period. You don't believe that. And Isaiah 44 .8,

he doesn't even know of any other God besides him. Well, wait a second. If he's talking about heavenly beings there, which is

Heizer's context, then he would know of other heavenly beings. That's clear throughout

Scripture. He knows who the heavenly beings are. He created them. So he's not talking about heavenly beings there or supernatural beings there.

He's talking about he doesn't know of any other God. He's the only God. So, again, this waving of the hand of the text isn't helpful in simply saying, you know,

Scripture speaks in idioms at times. Yeah, it does, but the whole Bible is not an idiom. It's not all idioms.

Right? I mean, that should be clear to anybody. Just because there are times where God speaks in dramatic prophetic hyperbole or God speaks in symbol doesn't mean that the entire

Bible is dramatic prophetic hyperbole nor is the entire Bible symbol. Sometimes God just speaks straight and direct, like saying, before me there was no

God formed, neither shall there be after me. And, Jacob, friend, there's no way out of this for yourself, not only to the text and actual engagement with it, but there's no way out of your abuse of Heizer, and you're going to see that in a moment.

Heizer is on our side, firmly on our side, and you're going to see that you absolutely misrepresented

Heizer, you lied about Heizer, and I'm wondering, and I'll let you guys speak to this, when this video is done and we demonstrate to your audience and ours that you misrepresented

Heizer, you quote -mined him, you do not know what he was referring to, you don't understand it, I wonder, are you going to pull the video down?

Will this video come down because it's filled with misrepresentation? That's what I would challenge you on, because we're going to refute what you did, and I'm going to prove everything

I'm saying, will you pull the video down, or will you offer an apology to your audience for misrepresenting

Heizer and not being honest about what his context was? Because if this video remains up, brother, sorry, friend, it's to your shame.

So I was just going to point out quickly, I mentioned this in the last episode if you guys watched it, that a lot of these younger

Mormons, so like Jacob and Hayden for example, they're putting forth some new arguments that are not classic

Mormon arguments, right? So we all know this, what do we always hear when we bring up these passages? Oh, of this earth.

And that's always, it's like that's it, that's the argument. It's always been that, you've been doing this way longer than me, that's always the argument you hear, this is a new argument, and it's like they're trying to get like, do like,

I gotcha, you guys disagree with you. So I just wanted to point that out, because again,

I mentioned it last week, they have arguments that most Mormon apologists, ones that we know well, would actually disagree with.

Yeah, I'll just say, I'll let you deal with the Heisner stuff, but the whole thing of waving the hand and not actually engaging with the text,

Jacob, this is where I would say, you wouldn't even say Scripture's infallible, so I don't even know why you'd want to make your point, but what you're going to do in this video is he'll bring up a point where he says, if I say the

Green Bay Packers are the only football team that exists, that just means they're the best of that kind, not that they're the only football team.

The problem is, is that's only one of the Isaiah passages. God stresses throughout Isaiah, and even in the

New Testament, in a lot of different language, that He is the only God that exists. So I think the reason why you can't engage with the text, is because that's one example that even if I grant it to you,

I don't think that's what it's saying, but even if I granted that in one passage, hypothetically, it means that God is better than these other false gods, there's still other ways where God says, before me, no

God was formed, neither should there be after me, that you can't get around that. Paul says in 1

Corinthians 8 that there is no God but one, and you can't get around that. So there are, this is a theme throughout

Scripture, that there is only one God that exists, and that's why I believe you can't go to the text and actually deal with it.

You just have to say, oh, we're aware of it, and you have a misunderstanding, and then you don't actually deal with the text itself.

So if you want to even engage with it, I would say that would be useful is to actually go to the text, in its context,

Old and New Testament, because you're going to make some claims later in this video that even the New Testament, the

Trinity wasn't that understanding, which we can easily refute. Go to those texts and deal with them. Yeah, he should have listened to Heizer on the question of the

Trinity and where it comes from in the text. Heizer has some very good studies, actually, pointing out some important things from the

Old Testament. Heizer's whole argument is the Trinity is first unfolded in the Old Testament, and he wants to ground his entire argument for the

Trinity, actually, first and foremost in the Old Testament Revelation, where you've got Jesus showing up. Yahweh, God, is being worshiped, but he comes in the form of a man, and it's a distinct

Yahweh from the Father Yahweh in heaven, and yet there's only one Yahweh. Heizer goes, he goes to great lengths to demonstrate the

Trinity, the historic Christian perspective of the Trinity. There is only one eternal and true and living

God. He goes to great lengths to demonstrate that the Father is God, the Son is God, the Holy Spirit is

God. They share the same being, essence, nature of the one Yahweh. He goes through great lengths to demonstrate that, and I'm surprised,

Jacob, you didn't spend time doing it before you quote mine from him and you completely misrepresent him, so here we go.

Here's some more. Dr. Michael Heizer, who is not a Latter -day Saint, but a Christian expert on Hebrew and Biblical interpretation to help

Jeff understand what these verses are actually conveying. What about passages which seemingly deny the existence of other gods?

Isn't this proof that other gods are simply fictional? I am the

Lord, and there is no other. Apart from me, there is no God.

Wherefore thou art great, O Lord God, for there is none like thee, neither is there any

God beside thee, according to all that we have heard with our ears. You were shown these things so that you might know that the

Lord is God. Besides Him, there is no other. If these passages are taken literally, there is a contradiction between them and the exaltations mentioned earlier.

But there need be no contradiction if one accepts that the authors are describing the incomparability of the

God of Israel, not claiming the other gods aren't real. Saying, there is no

God other than the God of Israel, is akin to someone from Green Bay boasting that there is no football team other than the

Packers. This becomes very clear when statements of incomparability are applied to things other than God.

The 47th chapter of Isaiah is a judgment against Babylon. In verse 8, the author puts words in the condemned city's mouth.

Now therefore, hear this, you lover of pleasures, who sits securely, who say in your heart,

I am, and there is no one besides me. I shall not sit as a widow or know the loss of children.

The same thing happens with the city of Nineveh in the book of Zephaniah. This is the city of revelry that lived in safety.

She said to herself, I am the one, and there is none besides me.

Obviously, Babylon and Nineveh were not the only cities on earth. Like passages which say, there is no other

God, these are not statements of denial, they are boasts of incomparability.

And Joseph came with a revelation. All right, so explaining all of that, because this is just pulled from Heizer from one of his videos, and you have to ask the question, what is

Heizer getting at? What is he aiming at? And here is the context. By the way,

I have said for a long time, and I've always been friendly towards Heizer, but just said there's things that concern me, and what concerned me was that Heizer was very sloppy.

He was very sloppy in how he explained this, and sloppy in such a way that people could misunderstand what he was actually trying to aim at.

Now, I want to say, what Heizer actually demonstrated at times in his work was not a novelty.

It wasn't even altogether impressive. It was things that I learned in 1996 when

I entered into Bible college and studied angiology and demonology. My first class there in theology, when we were doing that, we learned about all of this.

In terms of the language, and this is the key issue, everyone follow me here, don't get distracted or don't get mixed up here.

This is the issue. In the Hebrew language, there is a word for God, Elohim, and Elohim is used also to describe gods, in the

English language. But what does it mean in Hebrew? The issue is, it could mean, it could be referring to the only

God, the true God, or it could be referring to heavenly beings. So Heizer was pointing out that actually we've got to be careful here because the

English language doesn't really help us. That was his main point. When you see an English translation of the word

Elohim, and it says God, we have to actually dig deeper to say what does it actually mean?

Are we saying there's no other heavenly beings, which is what Heizer says

Elohim is, when it's referring there in the text of the Hebrew? Heavenly beings, supernatural creatures, that's

Heizer's point. Here's the problem. English language, the word God is used with the true

God, and it's used of heavenly beings, God, gods, those sorts of things. Now here's the point. Jacob misrepresents

Heizer here, trying somehow to say even Heizer recognizes that there's other gods besides the true

God, and hey, we're Mormon, we believe that, that as man once was, as man as God once was, as God as man may become, that's our whole belief is that there's a plurality of gods, there were gods before Elohim of this earth, and gods before them, and you can become a god one day yourself, and that's eternal life, to know the only wise and true

God, and you've got to learn to become gods yourselves the same way all gods have done before you. And look, this Christian scholar over here,

Michael Heizer, he acknowledges that like Scripture teaches there are other gods. Nope, that's not what

Heizer was saying. That's not what Heizer believed. Proof? Here we go. Heizer did not believe what you tried to say that he believes,

Jacob, and to show you that, I want to show you this video here, and the title of the video, this is officially on Dr.

Michael Heizer's YouTube page. Look at the title. Our terminology is not adequate to describe the

God of the Bible. Now, I think it's problematic in some ways to say that in Heizer.

This is where I'm saying Heizer was sloppy at times, because even as he says our terminology is not adequate, and he pooh -poohs using some words, he then uses other words to describe what he's saying.

It's like, bro, we have to use terminology to define something, but here's Heizer's point.

Our terminology is not adequate to describe the God of the Bible, and I want you all to see what he says here.

What I say now is, look, our vocabulary is not adequate for this.

A term like monotheism, because when we hear it, we think that means only one

Elohim exists. Yes. That is inadequate because the Scripture says otherwise. I guarantee people watching, if you ask them, are you monotheistic?

Right, right. I don't know what the percentage would be, but it would be pretty high. Yeah. Because we've been trained.

There's one God. One God. And so, and yet... And there is only one of those.

Yes. One most high. Right. Uh -oh. Uh -oh.

Are you already seeing the problem? We're only a few seconds into this, and it seems like Heizer is not saying what you're trying to say that he was communicating.

Jacob? He says there is only one of those true gods, a true heavenly being that is the eternal

God, the creator of all things. There is only one of those, but here's more. There are lots of Elohim.

So right away, even in this little exchange, we can see that we have a terminology problem.

Yes. And that was Heizer's point. We're going to do more here in a second, but that's Heizer's point.

The Hebrew word for Elohim can be used for the true God.

There is only one of those. You don't believe that, Jacob. Heizer is not saying what you're saying.

There is only one of those. Elohim is used as a word to describe that God, but also the word

Elohim, the Hebrew word Elohim, is used to describe other, and this is the wording that Heizer uses,

I'm surprised you missed it, heavenly beings that are not the true

God or even in the same category or species of the true

God. He's making the point that our terminology is inadequate. The Hebrew word

Elohim is used for the true God and other heavenly beings, and there are other Elohims.

Again, I think that Heizer at times was very sloppy in how he communicated this. I don't even see it as overly interesting.

He thought it was like a provocative thing. Again, you're learning this in Bible college.

It was in my first year in Bible college. We were learning about the Hebrew word for Elohim. It's used of other heavenly beings.

Same. This wasn't new. Heizer would act at times like it was provocative, and he discovered this, and no one talked about this.

It's in basic introductions to theology and angeology books. It wasn't that interesting.

But Heizer's point is we have to be careful because there is Elohim, the true God, and the word Elohim is used to describe other heavenly beings that are not of the same species or even like the

God, the eternal God, the only God. Here's more from Heizer. Because what we've done is we've taken a 17th century term.

That's when monotheism enters the lexicon in English. And we're using a 17th century term to describe what an ancient person thought.

Okay. So we've got a fundamental problem. Now, I believe that there is one unique deity called

Yahweh. Yes. Yahweh, the God of the Bible, is, I like to use the phrase, species unique.

Uh -oh. That's the best I can say. Uh -oh.

So there's trouble for thoughtful faith. There's trouble for Jacob. Heizer doesn't believe what you communicated to your audience.

He doesn't believe that. And it seems like you actually didn't listen to enough of Heizer to understand what he was saying.

His point was is that the English category language of monotheism, if you mean monoelohimism, you're wrong.

That's Heizer's whole point. If you think monotheism means monoelohimism,

I'm just inventing that on the spot, then you're wrong because the Hebrew word for elohim describes the only true

God, the species unique God, Yahweh, the only God, the creator of all things, the eternal God. It's used to describe him, but also other elohim that the

English translates as gods, right? And those are heavenly beings. But Heizer just said, listen to him,

Yahweh is species unique. He doesn't believe Mormonism. He doesn't believe that Mormonism is even possible because Yahweh is species unique.

There is only, Heizer says, one of those. So you took the words of a man, a

Christian scholar, a Trinitarian Christian scholar, you used his words to try to demonstrate your system, that we're all of the same species of this

God and we go through the same role of exaltation as him to become exalted gods like him and that there were many gods before him.

He's not the ultimate God. He's not the first God, not the last God. You can become a God just like him. Look, Heizer agrees with me. He agrees.

Scripture says there's many gods. Heizer's point is there's elohim, other heavenly beings.

And his point is that our language is inadequate to describe what the

Hebrew says and what the biblical worldview gives to us. There is an unseen realm.

This is Heizer's point. Everyone knows this basic stuff of Heizer. There is an unseen, spiritual, heavenly realm.

And in that realm is Yahweh, the species -unique, only God, nobody like him, none before him, none after him.

And yet there are other heavenly beings that he has created that exist in this unseen realm.

They are not like him. He's species -unique. He's the only true God, but there are other elohim.

That's what Heizer is saying. Other heavenly beings. And Heizer made a big to -do about the fact that, look, elohim can refer to God or the other heavenly beings, and Christians need to know that.

That's why I wanted to say to Michael Heizer, like, bro, brother, I think that's sloppier. It's not innovative or provocative what you're coming up with here.

This is like first -year Bible college stuff. But he did act like it was provocative and really interesting, and he had reasons for that.

But just to demonstrate even further, because there's more in this video. You go ahead,

Luke. You have something to say. Shema, Israel, Yahweh, Eloheinu, Yahweh, echad.

Yep. That's right. Here, Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. He's the only

God in the heavens above and on the earth below. There is no other. Deuteronomy 4, 35 and 39.

In the heavens above and the earth below. And what do you think that context of elohim is in the Hebrew? What do you think the context is? No other heavenly beings in the heavenlies or on earth below?

No. The Hebrew Scriptures would acknowledge that. There are heavenly beings in heaven above and on earth below.

So what's God talking about in Deuteronomy 4, 35 and 39? What's he talking about? The only true

God. He's the only God in the heavens above and on the earth below. There is no other. He is species unique.

Now, to prove to you that Heizer did not believe what Jacob says he believes, we need to go to Heizer again.

By the way, this is unfortunately just a frame, but you need to hear what he says here when he talks about, he's talking about the

Trinity. And what I want to do, I just want to sort of prep you a little bit. Mike, you're not going to hear

Mike say, well, you thought the gospel was A, and Mike says it's

B. No. The things that you believe, I believe.

I'm a normal evangelical guy. I know what the gospel is.

I accept it. Christ is Lord. It's an exclusive claim. There is no other way of salvation. I'm a normal Trinitarian dude.

Okay, all the boring things, you know, okay, I'm that too. But the reason why

I think those ideas are coherent and arise from the text might be dramatically different than you've heard.

So there's Heizer saying what he actually said often. If you've listened to Heizer, if you've read

Heizer, you know that Heizer goes to great lengths to make sure he demonstrates he is an

Orthodox, historic, New Testament Christian. He believes in the

Trinity. He believes in the gospel by God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ alone, that Christ is the only way to salvation.

But here's the point in demonstrating that. You pulled quotes from Michael Heizer who just told you that he is a boring

Trinitarian. So what do Trinitarians believe? What have they always believed?

There is only one true and eternal God who is creator of all things. Only one

Yahweh. And yet Yahweh is... The Father is identified as Yahweh.

The Son is identified as Yahweh. The Holy Spirit is identified as Yahweh. And yet the three persons are distinct and they share the one being or essence of God, Yahweh.

They are all Yahweh. And so that's what Heizer believed. And you pulled quotes from Heizer that has a specific domain and discussion about Elohim, the

Hebrew word for Elohim. And Heizer's whole point again as everyone's getting into this, is just this. Elohim can refer in Hebrew to God, the only

God, the species unique God, Yahweh. Only one of those. Or Elohim can be used to describe the heavenly beings that we translate gods.

So scripture does have a context for false gods, invented gods, idols. And it also has a context for heavenly beings, the other supernatural creatures, the other heavenly beings that are not like Yahweh.

He's species unique or distinct as Heizer says. There's only one of those.

That's what Heizer believes. And it's interesting because you before your audience, quote mind him, took quotes from Heizer out of context to make him say something that he actually would never agree to.

And again, if he were still alive today, I would fly him out, put him up in the nicest hotel and buy him a delicious steak dinner and have him sit here with us to demonstrate to you that you are misrepresenting him.

That is not what he's saying. And he would tell you that your perspective, your pantheon of gods is not something that scripture would accept.

It is false. It is fiction. And he would probably preach an entire hour and 35 -minute sermon on the

Trinity starting in the Old Testament. That's what Heizer would do. Tell you what, that dude could rock a good flannel. Yeah.

Every video I think he's wearing a flannel. Yeah. How did he die? Was it cancer? I think it was cancer. The problem

I have with what Jacob did is when he brings up Heizer in his video, he says he's not a

Latter -day Saint, but he's making it seem like Heizer would leave room for what Jacob believes. And that's the point.

When he says things like species unique, that doesn't leave room for what you're trying to promote in your video.

When he says things like he's a Trinitarian, he would agree with us on our interpretation of Isaiah 4310, 446, 448.

He would agree with us. When Jeff quotes those verses in the Gospel for Mormon video, and then you say, let me refer to Heizer as if he's going to have some different interpretation because he believes there's multiple gods.

He doesn't believe that. He just said he's a Trinitarian. He believes in one God. You mentioned the Shema earlier.

We know that Paul expands that and he includes the Lord Jesus in it. That's where I think the problem for me is you're quoting him in a way

I'm sure Jacob would say, I know he's not a Latter -day Saint. I know he doesn't believe what I believe. That's fine. But he doesn't even believe that there's room for what you think he's trying to say because he would reject that.

That's right. Again, the discussion comes down to the Hebrew word Elohim. By the way, you put it in your video.

We're going to play that in just a moment here. You did put it in your video that that's the context that Heizer is aiming at.

The problem is you did it without context and you did it in such a way as to confuse your audience to make them believe that Heizer was somehow saying things that could help

Mormonism. And he would absolutely reject that. Really?

The idea of us becoming as God is, also known as theosis, That was another example of what seems to be the typical

Mormon apologist methodology is to use terminology and historical words and context to confuse an audience that has never heard of them before and doesn't even understand.

You just tried to compare the Mormon view of becoming a

God one day because that was a quotation from the King Follett Discourse where Joseph specifically says that that revelation was given to him by vision in the

Holy Spirit and that if you saw God today, you see Him like yourself and a man in all the form of a man and he says, what?

He says, you've got to learn to become God's yourselves the same way all gods have done before you. Hear that His eternal life is an only wise and true

God. He perverts the text of Jesus and says to become God's yourselves the same way all gods have done before you. And you're like, hey, no, this is not strange.

I mean, this is historically what we know as theosis and every Eastern Orthodox person is going, what?

What? Every Roman Catholic theologian is going, uh, excuse me? And every

Protestant is going, have you read the discussion on theosis? I mean, maybe it would be valuable.

Maybe we should do this. We'll get a local Eastern Orthodox leader to come in here and say...

Funny hat and all. Everything. We'll say, here's the King Follett Discourse and Jacob's a

Mormon apologist and he said that what you believe in theosis is what

Joseph is saying there. Comment, please. It would be a very interesting episode.

No, theosis is not what Joseph Smith was saying or teaching or believing and anybody who knows the conversation of theosis would never make such a claim.

And honestly, Jacob, I mean this with as much due respect to you as possible. You should be embarrassed for the comparison.

If you all want to see a discussion of a Mormon apologist doing the same thing as Jacob here and just getting refuted completely,

I highly encourage you to look up on YouTube, look up Martin Tanner versus James White, Can Men Become Gods, and watch

Tanner, the Mormon apologist, get absolutely refuted through his abusive history, taking quotations from early church fathers, talking about how as Christians and regeneration and new life and being raised a spiritual life, being made new creations, how we are actually, we participate in the divine nature.

The conversation for them in the East had everything to do with our participation in the divine nature and new birth and regeneration and new life in Jesus Christ.

It didn't have nothing, nothing, nothing to do whatsoever with becoming a god one day, like Joseph Smith said there in the

King Follett Discourse. And anybody that says so demonstrates, and I challenge you, I challenge you on this,

Jacob. Have you ever read the historical teachings and studies that the fathers did on theosis?

And I don't mean quote mine. I don't mean seeing a quote from a Mormon apologetics article where you see a quote, and hey, that looks like what we're saying.

I mean, have you actually read them in their discussions to say what actually were they talking about?

Because I don't believe that any man of integrity at all could actually have read the discussions on theosis and come to the conclusion that you just did because that wasn't their worldview, that wasn't their context.

You just took a word theosis that means something very specific to historic Christianity and tried to compare it to what

Joseph Smith said in the King Follett Discourse, and I want to say to you, shame on you. And it demonstrates abject ignorance of church history and the fathers.

What I would recommend to you, Jacob, just do this. Take the King Follett Discourse. Call a local

Orthodox leader and ask to sit down with them. And I want you to read the

King Follett Discourse to them and say, this is theosis, right? And watch the beating you get.

Okay? Because theosis is not that. And again, for our listening audience, if you want a long discussion on this, listen to the debate between Martin Tanner and Dr.

James White on this issue. Well, this is just, again, further evidence demonstrating that they're trying to be as Protestant as possible.

We're just like you. It's the same thing that you guys believe. Yeah, yeah. And it's just, this is the unfortunate part.

Kiss it. Kiss it. This is the unfortunate part. He's just regurgitating things he's heard from other people.

If he had done the study, he wouldn't make that claim. And so I think that's the point, Jacob, is I know you're going to watch this, is go actually do the study before you make a video like this, before you come out and make claims like this because you make a bunch of bold claims that just aren't true.

If you're going to be someone of integrity, then go read. And it would benefit you to read the fathers, to read what they're saying.

Yeah, read the Eastern Orthodox. Read the Eastern Orthodox who are

Trinitarian. They're Trinitarians. They would fight to the death over the

Trinity. Historic orthodoxy, the Trinity, since the beginning of the church,

Trinity, second century fights against Sabellianism, Trinity, Arianism, Trinity, you name it, the

Christian church has always held to the Trinity. And to say that an

Eastern Orthodox Trinitarian believing theosis would accept anything you just said is absolute denial of reality.

They are Trinitarians who would never teach that you can become

God like God. There is only one true and living God and every Eastern Orthodox believer believes that.

It is absolute misrepresenting Eastern Orthodox and historic Christian orthodoxy.

Their conversation had to do with regeneration, raised anew to life and participating in the divine nature with God, regeneration, all of that conversation had nothing to do with becoming gods of your own planets one day or becoming

God who is, according to Heiser, species unique. We have five minutes left.

This is going to be a two -weeker. At least. Yeah, at least. Let's see if we can get just another minute here.

Let's try our best to get another minute here because I want to go through all this because I don't want to deal with the claims. You didn't deal with everything

I said sort of thing. We're going to deal with everything you said. Everything the Bible teaches?

I have said, ye are gods and all of you are children of the

Most High. The Jews answered him saying, for a good work we stone thee not, but for blasphemy and because thou, being a man, makest thyself

God. Jesus answered them, is it not written in your law, I said, ye are gods, the

Spirit itself. Okay, so let's deal with this real fast. So what I would highly encourage everybody to do, especially

Jacob, especially, especially Jacob, is, Jacob, I would encourage you to YouTube, the same platform we're on now,

YouTube, Michael Heiser, John 10, or Michael Heiser, ye are gods.

Okay? And there's a number of videos up from Heiser. One I would strongly recommend to you.

It is about nine minutes long. It's kind of a condensed explanation that Heiser has on this point.

And the title of the video is, How Psalm 82 and John 10 point to Jesus as the destroyer of gods.

And that's in reference to the destroyer of the heavenly beings that have rebelled against God.

That he is the ultimate judge and will ultimately judge those heavenly beings. It's basic Christian theology.

It's just basic Christian theology. But here's the point. In Psalm 82, this is about the unjust judges or rulers of Israel and these

Elohim, according to Heiser, the heavenly beings that are going to be judged.

The destroyer of the Elohim. And Heiser, we have three minutes left here in this episode, but Heiser has nine minutes here in this video where he basically exegetes the text from his perspective, demonstrates that there are other heavenly beings, heavenly hosts, that are not

Yahweh, and the text is God confronting them saying, you will die like men, you unjust judges.

By the way, this is always interesting to me. When the Mormons try to take Psalm 82 and John 10 out of context, where it says,

I said you're a God, you're like, see, see, there you go. We can become gods one day. I'm like, look at the next verses, friend.

Do you really want to be in that chapter? You really want that chapter to apply to you? Because what does God say to the

Elohim there, those heavenly beings, that heavenly host, those sons of God? What's he say? You shall die like men, you unjust judges.

You really want that verse applied to you? First problem. Second problem is in Heiser's exegesis of this passage, his whole point is there is

Elohim, Yahweh, the species unique, the only God, the true God, the creator of all things, and these other

Elohim, supernatural creatures, heavenly beings, they're there, and God is promising that he's going to judge these principalities, powers, these rulers, these heavenly hosts.

He's going to judge them. They will be judged on the last day. And what Heiser's point is with John 10, when

Jesus quotes to the unjust judges of Israel, I said, didn't it say in your law,

I said you're our gods? You know, these are sons of God. You know who they are. They're sons of God. They're the heavenly host.

But then Jesus, Heiser says, this makes a point to amplify it. I and the father are one.

Let me tell you, Heiser makes a point. Let me tell you exactly who you're talking to. It's not a problem to have other sons of God, right?

People that are things, creatures that are more than mortals called sons of God in scripture. You know that.

It's in your law. This is Heiser's point. It's in your law. There's other heavenly beings. There's other supernaturals who are called sons of God.

That's not a problem. But just so you know exactly who you're talking to. I and the father are one.

Heiser's whole point was he was identifying exactly what heavenly being he is. And they pick up stones to kill him.

Now watch this. They pick up stones to kill Jesus in John chapter 10. And he says to them, many good works have

I shown you from the father for which of these do you stone me? And they say, what? They knew exactly what he was saying.

Heiser was right. Heiser was right in that point. I and the father are one. They said, for thy good works we stonely not, but for blasphemy and that you being a man makest thyself

God. They knew exactly what he was saying. Interesting. You don't seem to want to go into the details of the text.

You just want to quote mine, quote mine, quote mine Heiser, get it wrong. Quote mine scripture, get it wrong.

And that is just seemingly the Mormon apologetic and methodology is that you don't seem to want to actually engage with a person's actual position or what the text actually says.

Because if you go to the text, it's not really a text you want to apply to you. You should die like men you unjust judges.

And the text isn't talking about these other gods as Yahweh species, unique gods, the true

God, the only God, which Heiser says, yep, there is only one of those. Now again, and I'll summarize with this.

If you take the words of a man who says, yep, there is only one of those and try to take his words to say that you can become one of those, you've officially abused the man.

You've officially abused his teaching. And again, I, my question is respectfully,

Jacob, are you going to take the video down or are you going to offer a public apology for misusing a man's teachings in the way that you did that demonstrate that you've never actually understood his argument or what he's saying?

You can't do that to a Trinitarian. You can't do it to a Trinitarian like Heiser. You can't do it to Trinitarians in the historic church that taught theosis.

You can't do it. It's an abuse. And respectfully, you should stop it. I mean,

I say this plainly as I can. You should stop misrepresenting history, misrepresenting other

Christian scholars. So I was just going to say, quickly in Psalm 82, that doesn't even work contextually because like Mormon theology would teach that you reach exaltation, right?

After a number of things in the afterlife. God was speaking to the

Israelites. They weren't yet gods even in Mormon theology.

So it just doesn't even work in the context. Yep. There's a number of ways that Christians have engaged with Psalm 82 in church history and I can tell you right now the approach has always been exegetical.

And that's to say, what does the text actually say? But what Jacob has done is not shown any concern for what the text actually says.

He just says, oh look, there's the word gods. I said you're gods. See, they agree with Joseph. That's an inappropriate use of the text and that's a mishandling of the text of the word of God.

So that was today's show. Sorry, we got to cut it kind of short today, guys. We actually prerecorded this episode because this weekend is our mother's funeral and so we're not going to be able to do this live on Thursday.

So if you're watching it live, we're not actually here right now. We're here in spirit but not in reality. And so we'll be back next week with Apology Air Radio.

Want to encourage you all, please, if you're just getting on, Missouri State Capitol, Monday, sorry,

Wednesday, May the 3rd, next week, we're going to be there for a bill of equal protection coming to be heard in the

Senate. I'll be there. Please come and join us next Wednesday, May 3rd at Jefferson City in Missouri.

We've been to Missouri before. Haven't we? I don't think so. Never Missouri? Wisconsin?

Was it Wisconsin? Yeah, we've been to Wisconsin. This will be my first time. I think my first time in Missouri.

Okay. Yeah, first time. All right. So that's Luke the Bear. Peace out. And that's Daniel Constantino.

What should we call you? We can have a nickname. Daniel's son. Okay, there's Daniel's son. I'm Jeff the Coleman and enjoy watching next week right here on Apology Air Radio.

This is the Academy. I am Eli Ayala of Revealed Apologetics and I will be bringing a six -part series on presuppositional apologetics.

Defending the faith is super important and I'm excited to be able to participate in helping equip you to do that effectively and biblically.

In my series, we're going to be unpacking all different aspects of the presuppositional method. What makes presuppositional apologetics different than other approaches?

How to answer objections to the presuppositional approach? What is the role of the authority of scripture?

What is the role of theology in defending the faith? All of these things we talk about and more. We try to bring it up a notch and not giving you completely introductory material but kind of digging deep into the ins and outs of this method.

I am looking forward to equipping you and participating with you and training you to be better defenders of the

Christian faith. From the beginning of human history and redemptive history, there's been a conflict between light and darkness, the children of God versus the father of lies.

It goes all the way back to Abraham versus his culture, Moses versus Pharaoh, David versus Goliath, the prophets versus the unfaithful and Paul versus the philosophers.

This collision, this antithesis has existed from the very beginning. And it's important for Christians to recognize the duty that we have before God to proclaim the truth and to take down every argument that exalts itself against the knowledge of Christ, the knowledge of God.

We're commanded to have a reasoned defense for the hope that's within us. And so we need to be ready to press the antithesis to be part of that collision.