Zechariah 14:9, then Ken Wilson's Book Against Calvinism

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Two subjects on today’s program, first a look at a glorious passage from Zechariah, and then a lengthy discussion of the nature of argumentation and scholarship in Ken Wilson’s The Foundation of Augustinian-Calvinism. Ninety minute program today, and we plan to be back tomorrow as well! Enjoy! Visit the store at https://doctrineandlife.co/

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Greetings, welcome to the dividing line. It is a Tuesday. We're gonna do our best to be here
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During this challenging time for you this week Try to try to be here as much as possible.
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I was honestly looking at the possibility of not being here today, but That did not that did not pan out
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And I guess that's good and bad depending on how you look at it. Anyway That situation might suddenly require my my immediate attention.
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We'll see and a little bit of travel in the process, but We are here and for those of you just hiding out, you know, it's amazing everything
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I've read the best place the best place everybody would be outside With I mean it's
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It's March April here in Phoenix is always a windy No, not always windy, but that's if you're gonna have wind
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In the spring, that's when it's going to be just yesterday We had a cold front sweep by north of us north northern part of state
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We didn't get anything down here, but we got we had beautiful wind air is as clean as can be.
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It's in the mid 70s It's gonna be pushing 80 at the end of the end of the next week well in the 80s in the middle of next week and man
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It just seems incredibly unwise that people are cooped up together in small spaces
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I just Not making any sense at all But that's what that's what's that's what's going on.
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So hey get out and Breathe in the air this stuff is is much more
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Contagious in a small controlled area without wind Than it is out in the beautiful outdoors
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Yes, so that's pretty quick, I mean I did you know, did you hear about the
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Some of the local parks around the country that waive their fees and told people get outside No, because all the parks around here have closed up.
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Well, they've shut down. They shut down the restrooms and go away so they All these people go outside and then they go.
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Wait a minute. There's too many people in the park Together totally totally totally crazy
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Anyway That's even impacted my riding outside because I know where all the parks are
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So I know where the restrooms are you do a hundred mile ride? You got to stop a couple times, especially when you're pushing 60 years old.
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You got to stop a couple times and Everything is closed so Me and Zwift are
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I'm crushing out the big numbers I'm literally before the end of the week gonna do a 100 mile
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Ride with five thousand six hundred feet of climbing in Zwift. So that's that's inside I'll try to try to do it in less than six hours.
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But yeah Would rather do it outside. I'll definitely have the doors and windows open. Let the you know, let the air blow through but anyway so wherever you are, we're going to try to Lift your spirits and and help you out.
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I want to start with a A friend at church posted this text,
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I think Sunday night after church actually And I I happen to look at his name's
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Andrew He's involved with the cultish program he and Jerry do a lot of the work on cultish if you've seen that webcast and Andrew has the outside of my granddaughters
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The cutest little girl in the world named Marley She's just dull and so you may have seen the picture where Marley and I were giving the benediction
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Couple Sundays ago back when you could still get together and stuff anyway And it was you know
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People share Bible verses constantly on Facebook if you follow almost any number of Christians You'll have
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Bible verses scrolling by you all day long on on Facebook But this one caught my attention too and obviously it's
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Good to give a context maybe the reason it catches the the attention is
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Hey, honestly, if you are in a context because I don't really feel like in Arizona We're in this context where we're not locked inside our houses.
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People are walking around and people are going out and it's not you know All the big events. It's not where you're going and you're hanging out with a bunch of people but you can go to the grocery store and you can do your thing and and Like I said, the weather is absolutely positively perfect and being outside is the best possible thing for you and so You know this particular
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Text You know you you post it you Got to put up there and you're looking at and it's like I think one of the reasons that maybe this strikes us is
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Most of us haven't read Much of the Minor Prophets. So maybe if you are in one of those places where you can't get out like we can here
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Maybe I ought to make it your your goal. It's a really good goal to read the
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Minor Prophets Because I've told the story for a member remember told a billion times before why did
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I read the Bible through for the first time? Do you remember? You don't remember.
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It was a jack -chick track It was a jack -chick track. There was a jack -chick track. You say that three times fast jack -chick track.
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It's very hard It was a jack -chick track that had a person dying
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Which you may not want a lot of a lot of jack -chick tracks have people dying and He he goes to heaven and he's walking along the streets of gold and who's he run into but Habakkuk and Habakkuk says hey great to have you here
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Hey, why'd you think of my book and the guy's going what book?
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Because he had never read all the way through the Bible and had never read Habakkuk. And so I remember reading that track and You know what?
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I did before I went to bed that night. I read Habakkuk but I didn't read Zephaniah or Haggai or Nahum and So that's why
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I made it the goal that and I was in high school someplace to read through the Bible All the way through catch all the stuff that you normally don't catch in a lot of evangelicalism
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So what would be really really good? Would be to read the minor prophets but to read them with understanding yet.
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It doesn't have to be a study Bible, but You know study Bibles have introductions spend some time with some good, you know, the
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Reformation study Bible or There's a number of good study Bibles or other things that will give you some background give you have some idea
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What was the background to Zechariah? What was the background to the these are things that are really really important and a lot of I'm seeing a lot of memes
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Where people are saying, you know, I used to say I did I'll do it when I get around to it
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And I got lots around to us. I still don't want to do it. And yeah, that's it's that's exactly right
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That's that's the situation so You might want to do it. It's from the book of Zechariah the 14th chapters.
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Zechariah is not a short book It may be a minor prophet technically speaking. That's not a short book and It's a begins in Zechariah 14 6 what oh
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Oh, I wasn't planning on doing that, especially in the Old Testament The text is just too small, but I can yeah,
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I can I can do that But now
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I've got to do this now that it's up there It's easier on my eyes,
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I guess but anyway Zechariah 14 6 in that day there will be no light the luminaries will dwindle
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For it will be a unique day, which is known to Yahweh neither day nor night
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But it will come about that at evening Time there will be light and in that day living waters will flood of Jerusalem Half of them toward the
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Eastern Sea and the other half toward the Western Sea. It will be in summer as well as in winter and Yahweh and this was the text so that so the context here
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Seems there's a lot in Zechariah and Zephaniah that a lot of New Testament Scholars see as background imagery and teaching for New Testament books and Clearly, you know when you have
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Ezekiel and his vision of the temple and now here that living water is going out of Jerusalem Yeah, these are these are themes that are picked up a lot in in the
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New Testament And expanded upon there So there's the background
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Living waters will flood of Jerusalem. I'm Jesus Describes itself living waters flowing up within the person clearly there are fulfillment themes and connect and connections there, but it's verse 9 that was in focus and Yahweh will be king over all the earth in that day
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Yahweh will be the only one and his name the only one Now what was interesting is, you know,
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I I saw Andrew post that and I was I looked at the text and You know, the first thing catches your mind.
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Yahweh will be king over all the earth. And so You have all the
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Old Testament the prophecy concepts of the knowledge of Yahweh filling the earth and and all the rest of us and and a lot of Eschatological perspectives
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Put that all off into a far far distant future so that I think it's one of the reasons that a lot of evangelicals don't
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Resonate with what's in the minor prophets is because well, that's all That's all after that's all in the
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Millennium someplace so I you know Don't really have to worry about it. It's not something that I never it's not really something
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I have to think about But Yahweh Will be king over all the earth and again,
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I need to I need to mention this I apologize your look if you're reading the English and you see
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Lord You're probably going. Well, why do you say Yahweh? Well, it is interesting.
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Concordance does this for me here. Notice what it's doing Since each of these are tagged
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Then you can see well, I'll just do it this way so you can actually see it in the
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English Lord is in all capitals, but the O and the R and the D are in a smaller font size
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I know that the vast majority of the audience knows this don't feel badly if you don't but you do need to know it and You're blessed to have it in your
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English translations. I'll tell you why in a moment that is the English Bible translators way of telling you that the underlying
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Hebrew term is right here and That is Yod. Hey, wow. Hey Yahweh Which we slaughter in English as Jehovah Now if you read
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Hebrew, you know that that actually has three vowels underneath it Which are the vowels for Adonai?
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They're put there to warn you don't pronounce this word because in a Jewish synagogue, for example you would
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Create great offense if you were to say Yahweh Yahweh le
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Melech the king Will be king You're used to say
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Hashem the name or Adonai and you put the vowels there to tell you you're supposed to say
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I don't know but it's Yahweh and you can see over in the Greek septuagint on the right hand side That it's
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Kurios the Greek term for Lord which then becomes so important in the in the
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New Testament and so Yahweh Will be king over all the earth in that day now
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Let's go ahead and look at the Hebrew since we've got up here I mean, let me blow it up just a little bit more So it's really nice and really nice and big here and make sure we've got only four nine up here
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Okay, all right, so they're all So your
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Standard verb to be Estai in Greek here in the
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Hebrew Hayah and Yahweh Preformative king
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Melech you've heard of Molech. That's king. It's a form of king and Yahweh will be king over all
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Ha Eretz The earth same term used
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Genesis 1 and Yahweh will be king over all the earth
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By Yom Yom day same again as Genesis 1 there are connections here
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In preformative bet in that day
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In In the day that that specific day Yahweh, he will be sorry
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Yahweh echad Now you you may have heard that term before echad
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You see over in the Greek septuagint it's heis heis meahen is one the ordinal one and so You can see in the in the
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Greek ente heimera echayne este kurias heis in That day he will be the one
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Lord or the one Yahweh and echad of course is the equivalent to When we talk about the
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Shema Shema Yisrael Yahweh Eloheinu Yahweh echad and So you have the same term being used here that is in the
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Shema from Deuteronomy 6 Which is the identifying prayer of the monotheistic
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Jew? Yahweh will be one And of course that I just mentioned in passing don't want to be losing everybody here, but if you're taking notes
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You will notice that in 1st Corinthians chapter 8 these same terms appear
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When Paul gives that What looks like an early creedal formulation from the early church
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Where he takes the Shema and he expands it out to include Jesus as Yahweh is kurias.
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There's one kurias heis kurias both are used there in in 1st
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Corinthians 8 as well as in the Septuagint translation of The Shema so In that day
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Yahweh Will be echad the the one
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And then literally in The the Septuagint says kaitah anima otuhen and his name one now if you're wondering and We do have people
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No, I do not want to download my updates right now. Thank you very much and we do have people that In this audience that will catch stuff like this.
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You'll notice over here. We have heis and I said that meant one and Then it says his name.
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The only one is hen And sometimes that throws people off is that is this a different word does it mean different thing and Yet look at the look at the
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Hebrew. Look at the middle column when I move between the two You'll notice that the word that it moves between is the same echad it's heis mia heis is the is a
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Masculine mia the feminine ken is the neuter which goes with ta anima his name.
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So it's just simply matching The word that it's modifying there and so that's why they're both the same they're just in different forms because Name and kurias is masculine
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Name is neuter. So they match so that's that's just good Greek But says and the name of him one and You'll notice
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Yeah, look at that. This is interesting you notice That and they did a good job here.
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I'm impressed. It doesn't always work this well And I hadn't looked at any of this beforehand, by the way
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I had not looked at what the linking would do and yeah, that's just happening live as we go along here but notice that it has
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The Name and you'll notice it marks four words in the
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Greek Septuagint and The name of him and his name So if it's really consistent over on the
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English it would be his name is marked here But it's probably just going with it with the Hebrew as the primary linking text here as the original text but in Hebrew you only have two words
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His name Echad one and So we have to fill in the meaning or provide other words and so you'll see
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In some translations there will be italics used to indicate the added words or something like that Because in English, we just don't say and his name one
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And in that day He will be Yahweh one kurios heis and his name one
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Ta onomatopoeia takes more words in Greek and in English to render the underlying
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Hebrew But that's what you that's what you have here and so What does all that mean it is
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Seemingly an assertion not you know, I think probably what caught Andrew's attention initially
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Was the assertion that Yahweh will be king over all the earth? There will be a recognition of his rulership and all forms of eschatology affirm that It's when and how it happens
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That is different But all forms of eschatology have to recognize that every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that is a reality of what we are saying and Because that is a reality of of what we are saying
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I guess you couldn't have heard that. How'd you hear that? Oh Because I oh,
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I'm okay I turned the sound off so maybe I won't hear it again anyway So that alone would be enough to really give consideration to That it is
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God's intention that he be known over all the earth and Not simply in the form of rebellion
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But in subjugation Because it's one thing to and and the
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Lord will be king over all the earth What does that mean? It's one thing to say his name will be proclaimed over all the earth
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It's another thing that he will function as king over all the earth how whatever you do with your eschatology there has to be a fulfillment where Yahweh will be king over all the earth and in that day in that day
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Yahweh Echad, and it's really hard for me to not think
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That this phrase right here, and I really honestly I've been trying to find the color thing if Any of you who work for Accordance?
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Listen to the dividing line Help me find the color thing But Yahweh Echad, that's the end of the
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Shema So think about what's being really said here in that day
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Yahweh Echad the very ending of the Shema that identified all the Jewish people their
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Confession will be known over all the earth There will be no more false gods.
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There will be no more competitors Yahweh Echad Only the one true
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God no more apologetics Thanks be Thanks me.
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I am NOT one of those people that goes I Well, I'd be a bummer because then I wouldn't get to argue with people anymore.
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No, not in that would be wonderful Yahweh Echad Yahweh will be the only one and And His name
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Echad so no other names no other competitors
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He will be known you know the question really is do we believe this and Like I said different eschatologies
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Fit the fulfillment of this in at different times we get to there with different intervening
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Events judgments resurrections all sorts of things, but it it has to be a central aspect of any eschatological position
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That this is going to take place that this is a reality and Given that you have fulfilled prophecies in these minor prophets
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Zechariah Zephaniah and things like that We have every confidence we have every reason to be confident that The God who brought those fulfill those prophecies of fulfillment in ancient times, even though hundreds of years later
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Can continue to do so down to our day as well and it certainly should be something that we desire that Yahweh's name will that he will be king over all the earth.
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And how do we know? You know, what's the fulfillment of this who is king of kings and Lord of lords?
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Well, it's Jesus it's Jesus and So we have fulfillment in the
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New Testament of these things as well, so it's a beautiful text if you're looking at memorizing some texts in the in your in your downtime
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This would be certainly an uplifting one To be memorizing at this particular point in time as we face the difficult days ahead, so I wanted to want to look at that and Talk with you about that now
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I have been putting off and I still Especially in in regards to a lot of the specifics
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But I do want to spend a little time because I've been looking at it's just been building up Ken's Wilson is a
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Medical doctor who practices medicine as a board -certified orthopedic hand surgeon in the
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United States And he holds a doctor from the University of Oxford in philosophy and evidently
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This book is the popularized form of his dissertation
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You don't see any markings in this because I've been doing the markings in Kindle I Must seek to be as gracious as I possibly can be
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I am however stunned That this work was granted anything at Oxford at all
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We have very very very very different historiographies We have a very very very different approach to church history what you can and cannot know in church history and how to do church history so That that's could come out very very clearly as we look at this
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What you need the reason that you might be interested in this book is that it is being used
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By the provisionists. In fact, the book makes reference to both
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David Allen And Leighton Flowers So to give you an idea of where it's coming from The author is zealously committed
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To a full -on pretty much Pelagian view of free will and He has a tremendous commitment to finding in history
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That which will substantiate his thesis he is Horrifically unguarded in his language.
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I was I Went into the book expecting What you read when you read dissertations?
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I'm having to read a lot of dissertations right now because the work that I'm doing in a different field, but you there are
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There are certain things you avoid when doing a dissertation You you are supposed to be following the research and So you you're guarded in your language in the analysis in the research analysis and and all the way up to the conclusions
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Because your final argument has to be based upon a fair and impartial analysis of what's come before there's none of that in this none
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Beginning to end it is a diatribe. It is specifically There's no possibility.
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The other side has any merit whatsoever And Therefore the language is used is incredibly unguarded what was extremely strange is the anachronism
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From beginning end of this book what the book does is it takes? Reform theology
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Ignores any development from Calvin on just sort of it's just it's just whatever Calvin is and reads the modern context of theological disputes everything else back into The early church now, that's not uncommon in Unscholarly work, that's that's that's what you expect.
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That's what you that's what you got from Dave hunt. Okay, that's what that's what Dave Hunt was all about Dave hunt was all about Anachronistically transporting our issues today
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Back into the early church, and so he turned Augustine in the first Roman Catholic Not realizing that And not caring that his definition of Roman Catholic today
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Anyone in Augustine's day wouldn't have even had a clue what in the world he was talking about it carries so much weight development and everything else that and So when you do historical research, you have to be very very careful about that.
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You have to Be just be incredibly concerned about taking language that we use today and finding a parallel in the early church and Not realizing there's been so much development in between that to Just simply say ah this person said this this person therefore same thing
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There is a lot of that kind of simplistic error throughout this book It just shocked me.
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I I went into this with high expectations and That's why almost every page in Kindle is got color all over it.
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Can you believe this? What did you what? Almost every page it's It's amazing
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It really really is but just to give you an idea I mean I could have started I I think once before I actually read some of the introduction to give you an idea, but Let me
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In the conclusion Inspecting the foundation of Augustinian Calvinism now
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The assumption of the book is that Augustine and Calvin are that Calvin slavishly
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Followed Augustine and there are a couple quotes. He gives from from Calvin that out of context sounds like that's what
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Calvin saying in context They don't that's what's taking this so long. Is it? You know, there's a lot of resources cited you have to track them all down and especially right now
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That's not always easy to do a lot of Like libraries are closed and stuff like that But I've tracked a lot of them down and I've again been stunned if I have overseen other people's work in various seminaries,
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I I Don't know how this got past anybody. I really don't I Somebody was asleep at the switch
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Augustinian Calvinists claimed the only person to correctly interpret the Apostle Paul's deterministic scriptures for the first four centuries was
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Augustine But of course they omit the Stoics Gnostics and Manichaeans who previously interpreted these texts as teaching unilateral determinism now
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One of the challenges here is that the vast majority of Even our audience and and I'd say that to to say that our audience is an unusually
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Well read audience really is But even the vast majority of our audience probably has next to no knowledge of Manichaeanism at all
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Right rich, I mean you've you've you've you've lectured Manichaeanism, right? Manichaeism Manichaeanism Manichaeanism.
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I've seen those in the grocery in the department stores Mannequins, but is that That's pretty much where most of us are
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I Looked at the I looked at the notes from my seminary and remember my church history class was awesome classes
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We're awesome. My church history professor was awesome, but church history in a general seminary course is
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Elective sometimes it's required Hopefully should I thought always been in the past but isn't so much anymore
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Can sometimes be done a Jan term class and Manichaeanism was not
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Discussed to any deep length. I mean, I knew who Manny was. I my notes did say that He was you know
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Born the early third century, you know, so flourished in that time period Gnostic influences
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Eastern influences. That was about it. That was about him So By the way
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If you're really interested in a quick Up to speed on it.
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I was really impressed This isn't always the place to go But somebody did their homework or some group of people did their homework the article of Manichaeanism on Wikipedia is big and lots of references and Not half bad at all.
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I mean for Wikipedia, I was impressed really was I mean nice graphics and When you study it
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Because he knows he mentioned here He said but of course they omit the Stoics Gnostics and Manichaeans who previously interpret these texts as teaching unilateral determinism so first of all anyone who knows anything about Stoics Gnostics and Manichaeanism Knows that there are differences between each one of these
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Manichaeanism is a form of Gnosticism but with an incredibly wide variety of influences that Manny brought into his self -made religion in the middle of the third century
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So in other words around 250 ish and he brought in stuff from Zoroastrianism and Buddhism and Gnosticism and Christianity and it is a massive mishmash there's all sorts of different Jesus's and and and It's just a mishmash of messy messy stuff and it does not even begin to share any
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Foundational worldview similarity to anything that could be identified as Christianity You don't have a single creator
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God. You do not have anything like that. And so Any kind of for example the
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Gnostics? Let's let's take a step back the Gnostics precede Manny even though there's continuing development in various forms of Gnosticism during Manny's life as well but Gnosticism really begins flourishing about a hundred years before Manichaeism does and Exists in its primitive forms
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Even during the New Testament period though the final forms that it was there weren't any final forms of Gnosticism.
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Let's put it that way There there are final forms as far as this as far as it developed in a certain area something like that but The Gnostic worldview is a dualistic worldview but it
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To say that it has a singular personal creator Yahweh was an evil
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God in Gnosticism. Well in once Gnosticism encounters Judaism and Christianity it makes room for it
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Yahweh becomes identified as an evil God because he created the earth and Since it's dualistic if it's physical, it's evil.
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Therefore Yahweh is a demi -urge an evil deity powerful But evil and So there is a divine spark in each person coming from the one
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Divine source and that ends up in Manichaeism as well as well as his Gnosticism but how you access that exactly what that means depends on how it's fleshed out in the various Gnostic groups and and Manny even changed his own view over time on that The point is this none of them are based upon a monotheistic worldview
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None of them are based upon the Prophets and Apostles None of them are based upon grammatical historical interpretation of New Testament texts
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None of that matters to Ken Wilson as Long as you can draw a parallel as long as you can as long as the
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Gnostics can see see the mystery religions one aspect of certain of the mystery religions notice how
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I try to always leave open the reality that there were many manifestations of these religions in many
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Differing ways and there is no one Gnosticism There is no one Manichaeism because even
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Manny changed his own beliefs over his own lifetime Some people ran one thing some people ran another thing That's how you have to talk about these things because you know
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That there are differing Interpretations of even the documents that are available to us today from the
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Nag Hammadi library or whatever else it might be as To the different kinds of Gnosticism and the different aspects of Manichaeism and all the rest of guys
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So you'll notice that as I say this, I'm I'm not saying Gnostics believe this it was a form of Gnosticism that believed something like this and in the mystery religions
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Many of them believed that by going through their various religious ceremonies you would receive
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Gnosis knowledge That would allow you to free yourself from the trappings of this physical body the real you is
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That divine spark that longs to be reunited to the great divine spark
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But that can't happen as long as you're attached to the flesh Now was that a
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Regular theme in most dualistic and Gnostic yes were there exceptions of course you have to You have to recognize those things so those who
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Partook in the mysteries might be called the chosen ones Because they have received this special knowledge and So what you do
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What Ken Wilson does is you just draw a nice straight line get out of ruler go whom elect in Calvin?
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whom elect amongst the Manichaeans and Gnostics, so And I do want to get into this especially this one later on There's a discussion of Vassalides and gift of faith
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Come completely different context but He brings it up a number of times because it it's one of his killer verses
41:21
I want to get into those I want to read the read the read all the contexts. I have them in the early church fathers
41:27
Saras Lingua Greca things like that and just show you why how this is is being done and And how
41:38
Those who work in the field go But if you don't have access to this kind of stuff
41:47
And I don't remember when it was 1995 or I forget when we got the
41:54
TLG CD -ROM, but we could barely afford it back then Yeah, turn all those things back in but um had it for years had it for a long long time
42:03
We were one of the first people that had it. Yeah for doing my when I did my THD We got that for me.
42:10
It was extremely extremely useful but if you're If you look up these sources, then you go, whoa, wait a minute
42:17
But see a lot of people just can't look up these sources. And so you go. Well, you know Must be what it is.
42:23
So The point is Going back to what I started reading you can tell
42:29
I'm not gonna get very far with it. I'll get Look background is the whole point here
42:36
Having the background in church history is the whole point here Augustine and Calvinist claimed the only person who correctly interpret the
42:44
Apostle Paul's deterministic scriptures for the first four centuries Augustine. No, we don't No, we don't
42:52
Calvin didn't say that Augustine didn't say that You're assuming that some of the some of the assumptions here and and it's all through the book
43:02
Maybe in his dissertation he dealt with this but he forgot it in here. We don't have a tremendous amount of the early church churches writings
43:14
For many of the earliest fathers what we have is because somebody quotes them partially at a later point in time
43:23
If we didn't have Eusebius's church history, we wouldn't even know some of these people existed But the reality is we have only a small portion of the extant literature and So one of the first things that caught me when
43:35
I first started looking through this was how many times it was the universal view the only fair way of actually saying that is
43:44
In the extant literature that we have that specifically addresses this issue.
43:51
It seems That the predominant view prior to would be this and then
43:58
Augustine changed it. That's fair This has no no desire to be fair.
44:03
It doesn't even try to be fair It is completely imbalanced Horrifically, so just way out there.
44:11
That's what just again. I was just like Why what's going on here? so I would argue
44:21
That The epistle of Dionysius We call it mathetaeus.
44:26
Mathetaeus just means the disciple. It's this guy who wrote to Dionysius There's good evidence fragmentary
44:34
Seems to me that he has the same view of the elect Clement of Rome talks about the elect all the time.
44:40
Are you telling me Clement of Rome was a proto Gnostic? No, I don't think so His doctrine seems to go along those things but These are not the primary topics that the early church writers were addressing either
44:58
They had other topics that they were addressing other things that they were focused upon Primarily theological and Christological issues as I've pointed out
45:08
I don't know how many times in this program It takes to the fourth century before we have a full -length treatise on the atonement
45:15
And there aren't too many people alive today that would actually agree with everything even that said in light of all the different theories of the atonement that you can parse out of Tertullian and Irenaeus and the recapitulation theory and all the you know, all this type of stuff so Making the first Centuries the theological standard.
45:41
I that's the other thing is like Yeah, I'm used to the fact that the Roman Catholics do that You're not a
45:47
Roman Catholic. So I'm not sure we're in the world. You're going on this But that's type of thing happens so Augustinian Calvinists claim that Augustine in his dispute with Pelagius Provided important and insightful interpretations of key soteriological texts that have been demonstrated to be consistently true based upon the hermeneutics of the grammatical historical interpretation of the original languages of scripture even though Augustine had limited access to the original languages of scripture and When he was an error, it was primarily due to his reliance upon the
46:32
Latin Vulgate. Well not the Vulgate but the Latin Vulgate is translated during his lifetime by Jerome.
46:39
So but the Latin tradition See, that's a completely different statement and That kind of careful
46:48
Accurate statement that takes in consideration a wide amount amount of information is never found in here
46:55
There just aren't any of them there everything in here is just pedal to the metal full
47:02
I have a Thesis and I'm gonna cram it into history and I'm gonna put it out there and that's just all there is to it so Well as far as its abuse of history, yes.
47:17
Yeah, very much. So So that so when he argues that the
47:24
Stoics Gnostics and Manichaeans had previously interpreted this text as teaching unilateral determinism what they meant what
47:31
Augustine meant are two different things and To confuse them just means you are a very very very very theologically confused person two different things two different contexts two different meanings and then to assume
47:47
That there is a straight line that just simply goes Augustine Calvin and Calvin's just sitting there going whatever you say
47:56
That's not what he did You can pretend that I know the quote go ahead you guys repeat the
48:02
I read it you go ahead and repeat the quote I'll take it apart when I get to it. Just be ready
48:08
Already already looked it up Yeah, I know and that That Calvin said he could write his confession of faith out of what
48:18
Augustine said Look at the first few pages before that little context thing. How many of you
48:24
I wonder in that group They're just going. Oh, I know how many of you read the pages before that. How many of you looked it up?
48:30
How many of you found it online? How many of you did your homework? That's the question. I continue
48:38
Somehow Calvinist purport only Augustine baptized in highly deterministic
48:44
Stoicism Neoplatonism and Gnostic Manichaeism Got it, right in their view every one of over 50 early church fathers got it wrong on human freedom choice again
48:54
I stop again. So what's he assuming that he knows? every even though There are not 50 early church fathers that wrote a book on the subject.
49:06
He is assuming based upon what fragmentary material we have left that he can come up with a universal perspective
49:19
So from fragmentary stuff and many of these are church fathers did not address this in the fragments
49:24
We have how do you know what they believed? You don't know that You don't know that please
49:31
This is not how you do. This is not how you respect church history. This is not how you do church history astonishing anyway in their view
49:41
Even Augustine himself admitted that he had tried but failed to continue in the essential and unanimous
49:47
Christian doctrine of free will throughout the first four centuries what Wilson will do is he will use this kind of language
49:53
He will he will make an argument through use of language without ever substantiating it just the language itself becomes the argument
50:02
So did then he at least provides the quote What is what is that what Augustine said did
50:08
Augustine identify unanimous Christian doctrine of free will
50:13
Throughout the first four centuries. Here's the quote in the solution of this question
50:18
I struggled in behalf of free choice the will but the grace of God won out
50:24
That's the quote That's the quote and Now how is this relevant to today?
50:30
I have said over and over again That provisionists are and not only anti -reformed theology they're anti -reformation
50:39
They are on Rome's side in the nature of the will That they are they are not just in the
50:45
Tiber River. They have put their their rope around the dock over on the other side of the
50:52
Tiber River Listen to this the famous reformed theologian Benjamin Warfield commented and I'm appreciative of the fact that it's a direct quote
51:02
A lot of a lot of folks know this quote. I memorized it decades ago. They know the quote
51:07
But they don't always quote it accurately The Reformation in really considered was just the ultimate triumph of a doc of Augustine's doctrine of grace
51:18
It actually continues over Augustine's doctrine of the church. I Don't know why that part wasn't quoted and Then notice the statement
51:30
Warfield's statement is pinpoint accurate Remember a few weeks ago, and I explained why this was
51:39
When I first started looking at this book, I spent the time to talk about why did Augustine contradict himself?
51:45
why could Augustine be used by both Roman Catholics and Protestants during the course of the battles the
51:54
Reformation especially in the 16th century and I pointed out that Augustine is a tremendous example to us of how the battles of your life
52:06
Determine what you see and what you don't see and the two great battles that Augustine fought first part of his ministry the
52:15
Donatist controversy a schism and a division in the church a schism over the concept of the sacraments ex -opera operato ex -opera operante
52:25
The Donatist ex -opera operante That the state of grace the the spiritual purity of the person performing the sacrament determined the sacraments efficacy therefore they didn't follow the
52:40
Catholic chain of succession the bishopric because they alleged that one of the people involved in the setting apart of a particular bishop
52:47
Was an apostate a traitor a traditor had given up the scriptures under the Roman persecution
52:55
So Augustine develops ex -opera operato. It is by the functioning of the sacrament not the person performing it which remains
53:03
Roman Catholic theology to this day That remains Roman Catholic theology to this day and that was part and parcel of That that's what defined
53:15
August the beginning of Augustine's ministry and so that's what he's focused upon The end of his ministry is focused upon his struggles with Pelagius and all the related political struggles remember the battle of Zosimas and The the
53:37
North African bishops standing firm Against Pelagius even when the Pope in Rome is sort of going well
53:42
I'm not sure Pelagius is all that bad and then the North African bishops are saying Yes, he is and that's where the
53:48
Rome has spoken the case is closed error came from remember that came up in the Debate with Piers Stravinskis.
53:55
Oh my goodness You know what? 20 year anniversary for the
54:01
Stravinskis debate next year We gotta do something about that. We gotta We gotta do that.
54:07
We're old Are you just telling me we're not gonna remember it next year? It's gonna get right on by Yeah, we need to look up the date of when that was because Because I can guarantee it to this very day
54:22
Peter Stravinskis really really really dislikes me Yeah, look it up in your gizmo
54:34
May 24 2001 we need to put that on the calendar that sometime the week before that we need to have a have a
54:42
Peter Stravinskis Memorial Day Anyway Yeah the
54:53
Warfield statement is exactly correct This is why there was a contradiction in Augustine that's what
55:04
Warfield is saying is Warfield's doctrine of the church and Warfield's doctrine of grace Are contradictory to one another because of the two great battles that he fought
55:14
Augustine what'd I say? Oh I said Warfield is right that Augustine's doctrine of the church is different than his doctrine of grace.
55:22
And so Notice what Wilson then says
55:28
Warfield's statement is pinpoint accurate, but unfortunately due to Luther's and Calvin's reliance upon Augustine The unmerited grace of the
55:38
Christian God did not triumph in Augustinian Calvinism parenthesis reform parenthesis close theology
55:48
It was the radicalized grace of the Manichaean God that triumphed to the
55:57
Reformation a different God That's Ken Wilson's That's not
56:03
Ken Wilson's Conclusion based upon his studies. That's where he started and that is plainly seen here plainly seen here
56:11
I don't know how any dissertation advisor Any dr.
56:16
Votter did not see that because it's so obvious. It's so plain and It has to be challenged right from the start.
56:25
So Here was being said the Reformation proclaimed a
56:32
Gnostic God That's that's Ken Wilson's conclusion Now we will discover he failed horrifically to substantiate that and the forms of argumentation are
56:48
Stunning stunningly bad, but that's what's being said Augustine was the father of Tulip now.
56:58
I've had so many Non -reformed people Argue that not even
57:03
Calvin believed to live in the fullest sense that that's a I mean
57:08
Tulip is obviously a us looking back and formulating Calvin's theology or at least the theology of the next generation
57:18
But Augustine was the father of Tulip Total depravity total inability to respond to God.
57:26
That's not what Augustine said. That's not what Calvinism says And if you don't know that then you're not even listening you're not even doing the first the first bit of Attempting to honestly deal with this issue.
57:41
That's not we believe total inability to respond
57:48
Positively in repentance and faith to God. Yes But all mankind responds to God in many different ways
58:01
It one of the most famous statements that Calvin ever made was
58:08
Is a meme that is all over Facebook and Twitter What do you say?
58:15
What do you say about the human heart? The human heart is a constant factory of idols
58:22
It's a constant factory of idols and he was right
58:27
But what's that mean that means the heart responds to God in rebellion in the creation of idols
58:34
Total depravity does not mean an inability to respond to God It means man responds to God within the capacity that his fallen nature limits him to So there was never the slightest attempt and look
58:54
Been doing this few years folks. I have encountered over my years many people in this spectrum of view that simply will
59:07
Not accurately represent Reformed Theology because they detest it with a visceral detestation and I think in their mind to even
59:20
Think about accurately representing it is an act of compromise and I think that's what we've got here
59:29
Unconditional election Gnostic stoic Gnostic Manichaean and then he came up with this dupied d -u -p -i -e -d as an acronym for unconditional predestination individuals to eternal damnation
59:49
Um Limited atonement Christ died only for the elect irresistible grace ready for what that means violent
59:57
Manichaean grace Yeah, that's what regeneration means violent
01:00:02
Manichaean grace and the gift of perseverance Invented by Augustine to explain the extreme differences and how persons lived their lives following salvific infant baptism now the
01:00:20
Dr. Wilson's Understanding of the Incredibly complex field of baptism in the early church is
01:00:30
Astonishingly shallow Astonishingly shallow. I mean when I was listening to him talking about Augustine Trying to come up with an understanding of how to believe in the elect but still have
01:00:46
Still go with the preceding traditions that were his and I was like really
01:00:53
Wow Yeah, just really really bad
01:01:00
Interesting discussion but Think about it
01:01:06
What you're actually being told think of All the sermons you've heard out of John chapters 6
01:01:14
John chapter 10 John chapter 17 Philippians chapter 1
01:01:20
Ephesians chapter 2 on the subject of the perseverance of the
01:01:26
Saints Had nothing to do with what any of those texts said It was all because of Manny the guy who made a mishmash of Buddhism Zoroastrianism Gnosticism Judaism and Christianity Yeah, that's where it actually came from no one has ever exegeted these texts honestly
01:01:52
We just know an exegete all those all the decades that I've spent Going through this explanation explanation of John 6
01:02:02
In my debate with Leighton, I never I wasn't standing there reading
01:02:07
Romans 9 Translating it and exegeting it. No, I wasn't doing that. I had
01:02:13
Manny's notes in front of me. That's that's that's what it was I just I y 'all need to know that that's all so Yeah, we just we just we just mindlessly follow
01:02:30
What what someone else? Said what Manny said, even though most of us have never read a single word that Manny ever said, but we still now
01:02:38
I'm not saying Don't don't hear me wrong All of us our traditions have been impacted by those who've come before us, but this kind of simplistic straight line stuff is
01:02:51
Simply absurd. I mean any serious historian any serious historian knows that After Augustine even as soon as gottschalk you already have development
01:03:07
You there there's already a change in context so so no matter what by the time you get post
01:03:16
Renaissance and You you put Augustine's interpretations into the context of post
01:03:24
Erasmus in New Testaments available Old Testaments available Latin is being rejected as the primary source you're now dealing with That introduced that that makes a straight line laughing laughably silly and Simplistic and erroneous.
01:03:44
That's why nobody believes it That's well, no one should believe yet therefore modern
01:03:53
Calvinism in these deterministic Distinctives has more in common with ancient philosophies and religious heresies than with early
01:04:04
Christianity an Objective evaluation of the facts cannot avoid this startling conclusion.
01:04:12
Here is my assertion that's the conclusion that dr. Wilson started with and not shockingly therefore ended with as we will see as We have time in the midst of lots of important other stuff
01:04:29
To document this kind of stuff to dig into the citations This is what happens when you have a monomaniacal focus
01:04:39
I have a thesis and that thesis is man's free will must be defended and therefore
01:04:50
I'm gonna find a way to do it and We have Encountered so many different ways in which that has been done down through the years so many different ways
01:05:02
This is a more recent way through unfortunately the utilization of historical documents and resources that most people simply don't have sitting in a library or Don't know necessarily how to find in Some of the resources where you can find them.
01:05:23
I mean CCL has some of these things some of the
01:05:29
Books and and articles are available, but many of them are not Available unless you have access to a research library
01:05:41
And so checking all the sources can be somewhat difficult But we will definitely be looking at some of these and going you see the source actually didn't say that Now I know what someone's gonna say.
01:05:53
You just need to read the dissertation. Look I've looked at what was it? $95 or something like that here.
01:06:00
Here's my here's my thesis if you can't take your dissertation and Summarize it accurately in a book of that length
01:06:09
You shouldn't have written it in the first place Shouldn't written in the first place
01:06:16
So if this ain't accurate if this ain't good enough, I'm not faulting it I'm not faulting it for what it doesn't contain faulting it for what it does
01:06:25
For the citations that actually does provide That's that's the issue there
01:06:33
Real quickly here. Yeah, I mean, so we just read you one more. This is from the conclusion This is the next paragraph because current
01:06:40
Calvinist deterministic interpretations of scripture passages are Interpretations brought into Christianity through Augustine's Manichean past Excuse me.
01:06:53
I read Romans 8 & 9 in Greek long before I ever had any idea of Any connection between Manny and Augustine at all?
01:07:06
so Did you even try? to demonstrate I Don't get the feeling that dr.
01:07:13
Wilson can engage these texts. I really don't I I could be wrong I just did not get that feeling so to say that That you you can bring entire interpretations, are you seriously saying that?
01:07:32
Well Dr. Allen was quoting from what
01:07:39
Primary commentaries on Romans when we when we responded to him Douglas Moo a little bit from Murray and Tom and and Tom Schreiner Are you saying that Moo and Schreiner are devotees of Manny Are you can you prove?
01:07:57
that their exegetical methodology is based upon the worldview of Manichaeism if you can't then you've failed in your thesis and That is a fundamental refutation of your of your position
01:08:12
If any meaningful interpretation of these texts yields the conclusions that we have presented and That your side has been noticeably conspicuous for badly not being able to defend against Then that statement is absurd
01:08:30
Calvinism leans upon Manichaean interpretations of key scriptures that is an absurdity
01:08:35
I'll quote again Calvinism leans upon Manichaean interpretations of key scriptures.
01:08:41
I'll say it again absurdity Calvinism lacks a solid historical and biblical foundation within early
01:08:50
Christianity. It rests upon unstable It rests upon unstable sand of ancient heretical and pagan doctrines for these reasons the tiny
01:08:57
Foundation upholding the impressively logical structure of Augustinian Calvinism should be pronounced unstable and condemned as unsafe
01:09:05
Can you see why I was I Was expecting oh, we've got a we've got a
01:09:13
Oxford dissertation this this That means it will have these
01:09:21
Commitments to scholarship language care balance none of that Now maybe that was all it was in the dissertation got all sucked out before it got in here
01:09:31
Because it's not in there Not in there anyway Yes, sir Okay a couple of things because I started getting phone calls on this a while back
01:09:41
I don't know what you're pointing to here. Oh, I Can hear you so the the first thing that I want to point out here is you mean during the show today?
01:09:50
What's that you're getting calls during the show today? No, no. No, I've gotten calls about this book months ago when
01:09:57
Dr. Flowers started Well, you had him on a show had him on a show. That's yes and my initial
01:10:04
I mean you've confirmed my initial response is so so He's essentially taking what the
01:10:12
Roman Catholics have done about owning Augustine Okay, and the you know, there have been this what is it post and?
01:10:21
Pre retraction ease. Oh Yeah. Yeah the retraction is that when he so we're gonna retract a we're gonna corner out and slice out a whole new corner of the world for our view of Augustine even though the
01:10:33
Roman Catholics have Misrepresented him and well the Roman Catholics didn't have to misrepresent him right now.
01:10:39
That was my point. Well, and that's my point I meant to say it that way but Just to give you an idea here as to how
01:10:48
Early church history gets abused and the Roman Catholics. I've seen you in debate show this
01:10:56
Repeatedly but the one debate I want to point people to if you don't think that it's fair that James just went through and showed
01:11:05
Citations being miscited. Well, I mean started that okay, but I mean I'm making the allegation
01:11:11
But we're gonna as it's there document that The the debate it's on sermon audio is the
01:11:18
Bible the only infallible rule of faith with Tim Staples it was Where's the date on this
01:11:24
July 23rd 1996 there is an episode in there during the cross -examination
01:11:30
Folks that really ill is that one in Fullerton? Yes. Okay. Well, we're both of those was with Tim We're in Fullerton same place same hall
01:11:38
Yeah and There is an exchange there where Tim has been citing and citing and citing and James keeps
01:11:46
Calling these out and he starts reading the fuller context reading the fuller context
01:11:52
Reading the fuller context. Well, I think it was TL G's TLG the
01:11:59
Saras lingua grecca CD was sitting on your computer that enabled you to be able to look up the fuller
01:12:05
Context of those quotes and then you called him out and you said do you actually have the quotes?
01:12:13
or are you reading from a quote book Jurgens Jurgens and This is what happens
01:12:19
So you well, but but see that but I understand that for Tim Staples, right this guy
01:12:27
Read all of Augustine in Latin He's got no excuse. Yeah, so he what
01:12:34
I'm saying is if you this this is the danger if you go into a Program of study with your conclude and and you want to prove something
01:12:43
You'll prove it Yeah, exactly, but that's not what a dissertation is supposed to be and as this was described to me by the phone callers
01:12:51
I immediately went, you know, it sounds to me didn't know didn't read the book All right but it sounds to me like the the the titles already been written and now we just need to write the story to go underneath it yeah, and So, you know here we are
01:13:06
Going down that road now the other thing because I got a phone call about this this morning guy
01:13:11
Are you gonna actually address this today? And and so this today? Yes Oh, and so I'm like, hey you get to it when he gets to it.
01:13:20
There's a lot going on right now just slightly and so the other thing though is
01:13:26
The person that he's talking with is a big defender of dr. Wilson Okay, big defender of dr.
01:13:34
State of Staples flowers. Okay, so I'm having these anyway
01:13:42
There is a name that you used at the beginning of this program and this fellow that he's exchanging with really objects to the
01:13:50
Fact that your name calling and I asked the general I said, let me ask you this what name hang on I'll get to it.
01:13:57
If if we were to refer to someone as a Thomast Mm -hmm.
01:14:02
Would that offend them should that offend them if they are actually and you called me one I'd be offended a devotee of Thomas Aquinas But you see the word means something yeah, it describes a worldview a point of view right?
01:14:17
Okay, a certain Aspect of study. It is not a name.
01:14:23
It is not an a bad word No It describes something and we have a situation where we are living in a society where words don't really matter by meaning anymore
01:14:35
Instead it's well, how dare you that insult me like that or how dare you this that and the other thing if you're going to argue from a
01:14:43
Pelagian Perspective you need to expect to be called someone who's arguing from a
01:14:51
Pelagian perspective and this fellow that he's encountering is objecting the fact that you're calling them
01:14:57
Pelagians, but yet My point to them is just like if I were to call
01:15:03
Someone a Thomast that means something if I call you a Pelagian I'm not saying that your mother wears combat boots
01:15:12
I am saying that you have a perspective that is
01:15:17
Pelagian in nature, so I want you to address that well just I just noted. I just looked it up Because I I encounter this in the book
01:15:30
He says when Rome fell the Vandals in 410 CE I wonder why do you see Pelagius and Celestius came to Augustine's home of North Africa present -day,
01:15:39
Tunisia instigating the infamous Pelagian controversy These Pelagian Christians were reportedly teaching doctrines not accepted by other churches for example
01:15:47
Adam's fall was merely a personal moral failure So each human born remained in the same state as Adam when
01:15:53
Adam was created There was no traditional Christian original sin a sin propensity moral weakness and mandatory physical death
01:16:00
That's how he's defining original sin here But the Pelagians had no answer as to why infants are being baptized
01:16:05
Jerome Augusta numerous other Christian leaders attacked these views So fiercely the Pelagians were eventually excommunicated as heretics yet there remains doubt as to whether Pelagius himself actually taught what was attributed to him in fact the pejorative term
01:16:20
Pelagian became the favorite accusation at that time a theological death sentence against any person teaching a
01:16:26
Doctrine another Christian bishop might oppose so it's interesting that well, you know
01:16:31
Pelagius might not have taught those things you know and and then You've got a reference to that to an author
01:16:42
Who argues Pelagius to not deserve a heretical status and and a few things like that.
01:16:48
So look The book The theological
01:16:55
Content of the book is Sparse To put it kindly and there's much assumption.
01:17:05
So if you're not gonna You're gonna have the assertion being made that and that which
01:17:11
I already read that Calvinist interpretations are Manichaean interpretations, but you don't have that then demonstrated
01:17:18
You don't have a demonstration that Manny actually used grammatical historical interpretation of the scriptures in the original languages
01:17:26
So you're not going to get that type of thing, but The idea that well, we shouldn't use this term
01:17:33
Pelagian. It is a reference to the fact that we now have provisionists who are saying that even
01:17:43
What Rome came up with to maintain a semi
01:17:48
Pelagian perspective, which is what prevenient grace? Prevenient grace
01:17:55
The idea that there is this Never mentioned in the Bible, but prevenient grace that brings everybody to a moral neutral point so then they can make a free choice
01:18:06
The provisionists are saying that's not needed That man in and of himself has the capacity without Grace, oh they say but the gospel is the grace.
01:18:22
But in other words, there is no Necessity of a supernatural power Everybody believes that God had to create the world.
01:18:32
So duh but the excuse that the provisionists are using is that well
01:18:40
Yes, we're affirming that the gospel Comes about by graciousness God didn't have to give us the gospel, but that you possess the power in and of yourself
01:18:50
To embrace that gospel without prevenient grace without any supernatural grace
01:18:56
Actually impacting you. That's the issue that that's where the issue lies and they and my and what
01:19:04
I've been saying now for about a year is just let him keep going they're gonna get bolder and Bolder and clearer and clearer the farther they go down this path as they are pushed because they're promoting their views
01:19:18
They're putting their stuff out there as they do that They're gonna be pushed to go farther and farther and farther down this road all you got to do is compare them three years ago to where they are now and You will see that that's exactly what's going on.
01:19:34
That's exactly what's going on So anyway, I just want people to understand Where this is coming from?
01:19:44
as far as the Conclusions The conclusions are also in the introduction.
01:19:54
This is this is the this is not the thesis that the facts Demonstrate this is the thesis that determines what facts.
01:20:03
Dr. Wilson will look at and That's not how it's supposed to be done.
01:20:09
And I say that as a person who working on CBGM and the papyri, you know,
01:20:16
I'm a little bit stalled right now because I'm My data set could increase by 55 % any day
01:20:24
Not sure if this current pandemics slowing that down but I Don't want to come to conclusions when my data set could expand by 55 %
01:20:35
So I'm in a little bit of so I'm just doing side reading and stuff like that. The point is
01:20:41
I Am open to where the data is going to take me. I Don't have a thesis that I'm trying to find in the data but I am certainly capable of recognizing when somebody else does and That's what you have here.
01:21:00
That's what you have here. So we will continue that so you actually got a call this morning about that, huh? Well, I've mentioned it a few times but folks we've you know, there's other stuff going on right now
01:21:12
And I let me do mention since we I guess we're gonna go to 430 My contest in the adherent apologetics bracket has completed and I made it past Gary Habermas.
01:21:30
There are many people very upset about that if I If I beat anybody there are people very very upset about that every single one of those
01:21:40
I don't know if you've noticed all the people all the little tweets, you know, well, I just can't believe that guy He's just he's just terrible.
01:21:46
He's horrible. I'm sorry. I don't know what you're talking about. I have found that Twitter is a highly enlightening and and wonderful fuzzy place to be
01:21:59
It's it's very loving. Yes. Yeah, it's it's like What are those things from there?
01:22:05
It's trouble. It's troubleville troubles. It's it's troubleville. It shouldn't be called Twitter It should be called treble.
01:22:12
Oh the battery died You're that or this is the one with the bomb in it only you
01:22:18
Trekkies know that one but It's just a wonderful place where everyone gets along it's love and graciousness everywhere.
01:22:32
Yes. Absolutely. Absolutely but anyway The point of that is man that font is small
01:22:39
Wow, I I Can't even find it
01:22:48
I'm in a really tough bracket really really tough bracket. So Michael Brown took out
01:22:56
Mike winger Yeah, and you've got Bill Craig next I've got Bill Craig. I know I've got
01:23:01
Bill Craig next. So yeah, there it is James White versus William Lane Craig right, and so this audience
01:23:11
You know Have you ever seen William Lane Craig? with a treble
01:23:17
You've never seen William. What I I would bet William Lane Craig doesn't know what a treble is
01:23:23
That's the horrible part about it all and that doesn't that tell you how you should you should vote on this
01:23:30
Free troubles for all if you vote for me. No, well if you know anything about troubles There was an overpopulation on the
01:23:40
Enterprise that got beamed into the Into the engine room of the Klingon ship right before it went to warp
01:23:46
And then on deep space nine and so there are lots of extra troubles to be had Until the the
01:23:52
Klingons wiped them out, which is terrible. I'm not sure how we have them now. Well, that's that's future. Nevermind Yes.
01:23:58
No, I was just going to as we're wrapping up here point out I'm seeing a consistency as you reviewing these and if the rest of the audience is
01:24:07
I think they should That again, we've got this situation to where? the source
01:24:14
Proof text is not being handled. Well, no, it's not and we see this with.
01:24:21
Dr. Allen we in his treatment of doctors Moo and Shriner Shriner it's
01:24:30
We should be better than this, oh, yeah, we really should I I've said it a number of times and I got to a point to where I just couldn't deal with Dr.
01:24:40
Flowers is Deflecting from it. I've said it repeatedly you need to sharpen your pencil If you did this kind of work in business, you wouldn't be in business you well
01:24:55
Let's not talk about business right now right now But the point is we should be better than this we should desire the truth and we should pursue the truth and we should pursue it as we would pursue excellence and You know,
01:25:12
I'm well it's we got us we got started we got started it's gonna take
01:25:19
You know, I spent a couple hours one night just on one citation because that's that's how long it takes to look everything up and so we'll
01:25:27
We'll do that. We will we will we will go that direction and we will help people out But obviously there's lots of other things to be talking about.
01:25:35
I know that's a little bit of an in -depth subject Just one last thing here So in my bracket,
01:25:43
I can't I'm so I can't I cannot read one of them but Michael Brown Is going up against somebody
01:25:50
I can't see who it is It's just the font is just like a one But If I can get past William Lane Craig and Michael gets past whoever it is.
01:26:03
He's going up against which I can't see Then it'll be me versus Michael that look
01:26:08
I think if that if that happens Then he needs to well in that two -day time period
01:26:15
I need to be on the line of fire and he needs to be on the dividing line. I think I Think we could have some fun with that so But you got to vote if you're gonna get us through and only then do
01:26:27
I if I can get into the the final four and Jeff's down in the bottom over here
01:26:36
Jeff's Jeff's gotten through two and I'm trying to I'm trying to find where where he is, but man is just so small that I can't find it but We could not wait a minute
01:26:53
Man I wish I would get big but it can't Did it did it did it did it there he is there he is.
01:27:00
Yeah, so he's on my side. So we we would meet We would meet in the final four
01:27:08
We'd be the step before the championship if he made it through his side, but he's up against Mike Lacona and I think he's winning 75 25 so He's got a good shot looking his he's got much easier bracket than I do
01:27:28
He does he does it's a fact he's got a much easier bracket than I do But that's okay.
01:27:34
That's okay. So in fact, did you notice that last competition? me versus Habermas and Jeff versus like Ona I Have the relationship to Jeff that Habermas has to like Ona So I was that was rather interesting he saw that so yeah, yeah, so There's a shot.
01:27:56
There's a shot and I'm not sure who's coming out of the other side Robbie Zacharias is over there and Frank Turk is over there.
01:28:07
John Lennox is over there now Turks like up against Lennox So who knows we'll see but isn't it strange?
01:28:14
This is about the this is the only exciting bracket, you know in March in the United States, I Mean the
01:28:21
Olympics put off to 2021 who saw this coming?
01:28:27
Well, actually a lot of people did Yeah, pretty much pretty much pretty much.
01:28:33
I I'm leaving this down here because it heats new batteries Who knew who knew the triples needed double -a batteries,
01:28:43
I'm not sure if we have any down here anyways But I'll try to resuscitate the trouble because my impersonation is not all that good.
01:28:48
So adherent apologetics on Twitter Get on there and help us get past the next round.
01:28:55
Oh, there we go. See Glenn Hendrickson just posted the the the
01:29:00
Tribble tribbles landing on Kirk Which is one of my favorite scenes in all of Star Trek.
01:29:07
It is is great Yeah, see and Lisa Park Favorite quotes from the divine line today.
01:29:14
Have you ever seen William Lane Craig with the treble? You haven't have you Free tribbles for all if you vote for me, so I've got the geek vote now, but I'm not sure that's gonna be enough so we'll
01:29:26
We'll see. I mean, I'm Jeff will help me. You know, we've got to get the apology radio folks
01:29:32
So we got everybody in to get past William Lane Craig Then it gets really interesting if he gets through at the same time because then we you know
01:29:40
If I can get past Michael then it's me versus Jeff or something then Then it'll get crazy, it'll get absolutely insane.
01:29:47
So anyways, thanks for watching the program today My plan is to be back tomorrow. So we will be there for you in the midst of your isolation
01:29:57
I'm not planning on doing this tomorrow. So if you're going oh, please I've had enough of manikin is over the day.
01:30:04
Gotcha We'll have some other stuff to do and maybe some calls and do things like that. So we'll see you tomorrow.