Should Spanking Be a Last Resort?

The Bible Bashed Podcast

Subscribe

Download

Share

00

00:03

but then every time you have this conversation it's constantly a oh so you're for beating children warning the following message may be offensive to some audiences these audiences may include but are not limited to professing christians who never read their bible sissies sodomites men with man buns those who approve of men with man buns man bun enablers white knights for men with man buns homemakers who have finished netflix but don't know how to meal plan and people who refer to their pets as fur babies your discretion is advised people are tired of hearing nothing but doom and despair on the radio the message of christianity is that salvation is found in christ alone and any who reject christ therefore forfeit any hope of salvation any hope of heaven the issue is that humanity is in sin and the wrath of almighty god is hanging over our head they will hear his words they will not act upon them and when the floods of divine judgment when the fires of wrath come they will be consumed and they will perish god wrapped himself in flesh condescended and became a man died on the cross for sin was resurrected on the third day has ascended to the right hand of the father where he sits now to make intercession for us jesus is saying there is a group of people who will hear his words they will act upon them and when the floods of divine judgment come in that final day their house will stand welcome to a bible bash where we aim to equip the saints for the works of ministry by answering the questions you're not allowed to ask we're your host harrison kerrigan pastor tim mullet and today we'll answer the age -old question should spanking be a last resort now tim this is this is a question we're bringing up you know there is a big controversy um you know a week two weeks ago at this point uh over spanking this feels like one of those topics that constantly comes in and out you know of online discourse where you have one side who will make a statement about spanking essentially saying hey you should be spanking your kids if you love them you know here's some bible verses about it and then you have a you have another side who's coming along and saying you know essentially i mean i've had people tell me things like spanking is ungodly god hates uh parents who spank which is very interesting because you know these are the same people that tell you god loves everyone but then they'll also say god hates all the things that they don't like right right um and so so you have this you have this discourse going on and and there there was an interesting response from uh from you know a certain section of people who you know i think i think they're kind of these people who recognize the bible has a lot to say about spanking your children and actually presents spanking as you know something between a morally good thing to a morally neutral thing but then they they just personally don't really like the idea of spanking your children very much and so their their response is just to say well yes you know you should be spanking your kids but only as a last resort you know as the as the final line of defense right uh should you spank your kids and so so that's why we're bringing up this question but the tim you know what what is your sort of view of that you know of that suggestion i mean is there any merit to that uh you know should we be very select and when we spank our children as a form of discipline or is it just sort of the nah you should probably you know assuming your children are normal especially as they're when they're really young you're just gonna have to spank them a bunch yeah i mean you should you should basically try everything that you can possibly try to do so that you never have to spank your kid i mean basically just try to negotiate with them try to give them things try the counting thing you know that one that one seems to work like if you just count and count to like four um because by the time you get to four then they'll know you're serious and so then thank you so you should try that one too and maybe you can just yeah yeah just make that a last resort because it's kind of mean okay who are you and what have you done with the real tim you don't think you should count i'm look man i mean you don't think the counting works yeah most let's be honest man most of these kids when especially when they're younger they probably can't even count to begin with and so so suggesting you know oh and and here's the thing too is you know some people would say hey you can't um you know the reason you resort you reserve spanking as a last resort is because they're not going to understand what they're being spanked for but these same children can sit down and have a conversation about what's right and what's wrong and they will understand that and they certainly won't get distracted at any point or get confused by all the things you're saying you know especially when you have toddlers and stuff so so you know there you go they can't understand the complex conversation about what's morally right and wrong but they can't understand what they're getting a spanking for yeah it's not supposed to make any sense but um yeah no this is yeah obviously with spanking there is a type of person that you're talking about who technically knows that it's in the bible so they want to not be like a deranged liberal so to speak but then essentially what's happening is that their emotions are not lining up with these verses as if they're good basically so they're in they're in a situation where they don't understand the purpose of spanking their emotions are not tethered to the scriptures at that point so there's a kind of person who secretly thinks that yeah this is kind of crazy right yeah yeah but i know it's they wish it was they wish it wasn't in there but they know that it is they know it's in there you know but i don't really think it's good mostly it's dangerous um so they view it just like a lot of the you know problem passages in the bible where they know that it's in there they know that they can't technically disagree with it because they're going to lose um influence or whatever with certain kinds of people so certain kinds of people that they want to be in the same circles with they're going to look at them and think that you know they're they've caved or something they've compromised so like on paper they think it's a good idea but then it's just kind of like a last resort thing that you functionally need to never use and probably you know like really in this way they put it you know and really i mean like there's much better forms of discipline anyways when it comes right down to it right so there's there's yeah that's in there and yeah that can be an intern for like really really serious things but then but then if you ever if you really have to like spank people spank them it's probably like a parenting failure anyways because you should have been able to figure out how to resolve it in another way but then the funny thing about that is this is one of those topics the bible like there's a there's actually a very direct verse that references this and and a lot of what's happening in this discussion is that they know that there are verses in the bible on spanking they just don't know what any of them say okay they don't like not only do they not know what any of them say but if you say like like these verses in spanking like if you just read them they're some of the most offensive verses to modern ears that you can possibly imagine okay so i'm gonna read a few but then like the thing is that there's one there's one verse in particular that addresses the topic of frequency very directly and i mean it's just the one that everyone should know you know proverbs 13 24 says whoever spares the rod hates his son okay but he who loves loves him is diligent to discipline him that directly addresses this question we we can we're done like we're done with the episode we don't have to say anything more like so i mean if you actually read the verse what does it say he who spares the rod hates his son like that tells you this this is not meant to be an infrequent thing this is not meant to be something you spare right this is meant to be something that's like diligently right that's what it says whoever loves his son is diligent to discipline him uh with the rod right like that's what that's what it's saying so it's not something like it's not like um you know sprinkle a little salt on there but don't overdo it kind of thing this is uh don't if you spare it you're going to spoil the job right so it's using the food metaphor kind of thing there and so it's not just like just try it every once in a while this is like this is uh your go -to tool now obviously is there's the issue is there's obviously way more to parenting than this i mean there's obviously way more than but then parenting is not less than this and then we're living in a generation right now that looks like it hasn't been spanked for sure oh yeah you can tell you can when you when you meet kids you can tell the ones that are spanked and the ones that aren't it's not it's not hard at all well so if you think about like some of these verses yeah proverbs 14 3 by the mouth of a fool comes a rod for his back but the lips of the wives will preserve him i mean there's a whole category for corporal punishment in the bible that goes beyond even children at this point to where i mean and we probably need to do an episode on this at some point but the mercy of the wicked is cruel like we're living in a society right now that would rather put a man in a cage for years at taxpayer expense than to just publicly beat him with a rod on the back because we think that that's like inhumane or something like that right we'd rather treat him like an animal at taxpayer expense for year take away years of his life to you know put put a permanent um you're a criminal tag on him for the rest of his life and everything else but i mean this is all throughout the bible um so you know uh let's see proverbs 22 15 folly is bound up in the heart of a child but the rod of discipline drives it far from him um proverbs 23 13 do not withhold discipline from a child if you beat him with a rod he will if you beat him he will not die right he won't yeah he won't that that hey that's an offensive verse man could you imagine hearing you know like the apostle paul or something coming along and saying hey look you're gonna spank him he's not gonna die why are you so what are you so worried about you think you're gonna kill your kid but what's funny about that is like every time like you're respectable evangelical text type talk about this verse they're like we're not advocating child beating or whatever like we're not advocating that and like you can't just like it's like hey did you ever read that you know like like meaning like they're trained like a circus monkey to come out and make all these like qualifications and hey we're talking when you're talking about like you're not talking about beating your child it's not that and but then you have a verse right there that says hey if you beat him with a rod will he not die and so i mean and i'm not saying that like there's not um but what i'm not trying to say is that they're not checks on spanking or something like that like i know that that's an emotionally charged word i'm just trying to say that you can read these passages and it's like wherever the church is at right here we're just so far away from a biblical worldview and all this so basically what we've done is we've taken every like all the language of these passages like spirit spare the rod spoil the child right if you beat him he will not die we've taken all that we basically turned it all into bad stuff like that's the bad the bad form of spanking is to talk about the way the bible talks about it and then and then basically the function basically it's just this thing that you shouldn't really ever do you know but then it is it it's there in case they do something really bad you know but then for the most part you know this is something that you should stay away from in general right so uh proverbs 29 15 the rod and repair of wisdom a child left to himself bring shame to his mother and that one that was funny too because because it's like in the other side of this uh conversation is that you know this is just behavior modification you're just treating them like an animal it's like you know like um you're like the rat in the experiment that if you go the certain path you're gonna like get shocked or whatever and that doesn't train the heart right it doesn't train the heart uh all it does is just modify the behavior so to speak but then the rod of reproof gives the wisdom i think that means it changed it you know helps correct the heart too you know yeah yeah obviously you need to give words that give an interpretation for what's happening as well that goes along with that but yes this is designed to do a lot more than what people think for sure yeah and i think i think it's so weird you know whenever you have this conversation there's so much baggage with it there's so much emotionally charged language that i think the majority of the time someone comes along and says hey we should probably be spanking children more than we are as a society right now maybe we should start taking these verses seriously you know no these verses are not talking about a you know metaphorical rod that only gently guides you know no it's talking about a rot like i don't know how else you read um which proverb was that talking about you know if you if you uh if you spank your son he won't die or if you strike him with a rod yeah so proverbs 23 13 that is not talking about gentle guidance you know with the with the rod you know nudging them with a ruler you know yeah that's not what that's talking about sorry like sorry i i'm sorry but it's not talking about that but then every time you have this conversation it's constantly a oh so you're for beating children no what no child abuse right before child you know like oh so you're just gonna hit them and then not say anything like a child abuser like no well i have not said any of these things you are projecting all of that onto me and so i think what happens is you know you start talking about spanking and and a lot of people they just jump to the conclusion that it's like the the drunk dad who's you know just mad because of whatever and he's just hitting his kids left and right and not explaining anything and that's not what anyone is talking about everyone who's talking about spanking their children they're people who are saying hey i love my kids enough to know that the you know i trust the bible i trust what god has said he's saying that spanking is a good thing for them so i'm going to spank them and they're not i mean they're not foolish parents they're people who are coming along and and you know i think they understand that you can't just you can't just spank your child and say nothing about it not explain anything you know especially especially these parents who are saying like hey this is a this is used to teach this is used to to guide children and help them distinguish right from wrong you know i i find it hard to imagine that those parents are talking about hey i'm just gonna you know the minute my kid does something i don't like i'm gonna i'm gonna spank them and then not say anything and move on i find it hard to imagine that they're saying that as opposed to hey i'm gonna you know i'm gonna spank my i'm gonna spank my child and then i'm going to explain to them this is what you did this is why it's wrong this is what the bible says and then this is what we have to do you know if we want god to forgive us this is how we handle pursuing forgiveness from god and repenting and then you know along the way as you do that over the years eventually they start to learn to do that those follow those steps on their own that's the whole point of all this the point is not to just hit your kid when they do something you don't like right yeah i mean i i think i mean i would give the other side a little bit of a i give them a little bit of a like understanding in the sense that i i think that probably most people aren't spanking very well right now but then like the issue is like it's one of those things where um you're talking about a topic that is so emotionally charged right now and so i mean i would i would be the first to say that a lot of people who are spanking you know maybe they're spanking in anger maybe they're i think they're probably spanking very inconsistently i bet they're not like addressing the the heart behind it i bet they're not um practicing biblical restoration in the process like meaning hey um now this is over you're like debt's over you know love you care about you must be restored that kind of thing so i think that a lot of parents are probably not practicing it perfectly biblical but then the issue is like right now where we're at in society is like we had generations of kids i mean growing up when i grew up schools still were allowed to spank kids while you're at school okay yeah i mean like uh i mean that was particularly during my younger years like at a private christian school or whatever they're still allowed to spank but then you know in my dad's like when my dad's generation they still spanked in public schools right like so but then the issue is like they like you look at where we're at right now we've as a society withheld discipline in this form from everyone else right i mean done done the perfect like it you know no one's ever going to do it perfectly but then like you can look at our society and say hey we're not doing it at all and look at how they're turning out now that we're not doing it all so then if you were to say hey would you rather it be done imperfectly you know even with anger and whatever else than not be done at all i would say well you can obviously look at society and say hey look at the mess we're in because we're not even trying anymore right yeah so like the issue is the way that it's framed is like if you're going to do it you have to be very careful you must be perfectly done in every single instance that's why no one's doing it because they're just like well i don't want to mess this up it's like well but look at the product you're messing entire generations of people up because you're too afraid to try right right because you bought into this idea of like just like in a rational kind of perfectionism at one point i mean it in in this is where it's kind of ridiculous about it it's like we don't do this with any other area of life or with we only do this with areas of life which are currently contested but then imagine like a husband saying hey i don't want you know i want to make sure i get this work family balance right so i'm just not going to go to get a job until i can figure it out and make sure i get the perfect formula or something like that but that isn't the way that life works i mean like god god uses imperfect people using imperfect means to accomplish his purposes right so when you're when you're looking at something like this i mean this you do have to say hey we need to uh encourage people to do this more i mean obviously i think yeah we need to coach them better on how to do it um bring you know principles of restoration into this you shouldn't be doing this just out of control angry frustrated whatever else it shouldn't be done for personal offense like you're just personally indignant at what's happening and taking out your you know insecurities on them or something like that but yeah no this is just a normal part of life it should be faithfully done shouldn't be a last resort the bible even says it so i don't know what to tell you okay so so i guess just to close us out why don't you just walk through let's say you have you know you have a you have your kid and you know they've they've done something worthy of a spanking what what would the step -by -step process look like if you were to do it you know the the best way you possibly could i thought nancy did a great job in that video of explaining the one that got everyone so mad i thought she did a great job of explaining the process in the sense of hey like um you think she did it right i mean you you have a lot of people who say hey you shouldn't you know spank for that petty reason because they misrepresented her reason uh as far as x concerned but i mean she was spanking her child as she said because they were grumbling and complaining and she wanted them not to be some moody depressed gothic you know edgar allen poe type who's sitting over in the corner brooding because they're so fussy and mess you know uh uh irritated at the world around she wanted them as the bible says and everything give thanks to have joy but i mean she basically spanked her after her daughter fussed at her arrival and then next time she prepared her to go into that encounter reminded her what to do when she came back to get her and make it more a joyful encounter and less of a like a fussy complaining response and you know so i mean i think that's that's great i mean spanking is supposed to be disciplined training and righteousness what you're supposed to be doing is training them to do the right things so to the extent to which you can communicate with them at this point it's like what you should be doing is you should be spanking them for the thing they did wrong and then training them on how to do the right thing and then what also needs to go in there is some sort of reconciliation moment where god's forgiven us we've it's all done we've forgiven you it's done we're moving on um and then you teach them what to do next time so you know that's obviously what you do that kind of thing when uh there's a corrective moment but i mean this is also the kind of thing you do when you have a baby who is crawling with a fork towards the light socket you know yeah it's not just for intentional disobedience it's also a training mechanism to say hey don't do that because you're gonna kill yourself yeah you're gonna get you're gonna get significantly hurt so you get pop on the butt so that you realize no pain yeah that's better you get that then you go out on that road or it's better you get that then you stick your finger in that light socket because i'm trying to save your you know life from you know electrocution and all that so yeah but i mean there's a lot more to say but those are the principles okay well i think i think that's a good place for us to wrap up the conversation on and you know this like i said this is one another one of those conversations that just it keeps coming back once every few months and it's the it's the same stuff man and it all just boils down to there's a lot of people out there that just simply i i think they at deep down if you could get down to the bottom of it i think there are a lot of christians out there who are still extremely tempted to favor the wisdom of man as opposed to the wisdom of god and and god makes it so plain i mean just go read the proverbs and you will see that that there's very clear commands about how to uh discipline our children and it absolutely includes spanking and not just as a last resort but as you know something to be incorporated uh into their upbringing in general to help them learn right from wrong and you know i i agree with you tim i think we've gone so far from that that you can just i mean you can just look out at society and tell that that we needed more spankings growing up especially the the younger generations um so so that's absolutely something that parents need to you know keep in mind and and not feel so ashamed about either when it comes to spanking because the bible is clear if you love your if you love your children you'll spank them if you don't love your children you won't and it's it's that black and white it's not hard so just you know think about that if you're if you're a person who's who's hard i'm not gonna spank my kids think think about that and the bible verses are there and you've got to do something with them and you can't just cop out and say hey that's not talking about spanking that's gentle guidance i don't know i mean what kind of gentle guidance would some people be tempted to think would you know kill your children i you know that doesn't seem to make a lot of sense to me but anyways uh we want to thank all you guys for all the support you show for us week in and week out uh on twitter on facebook uh and the youtube comments everything like that if you want to support us you can do that by liking the video by commenting by subscribing on youtube subscribing wherever you listen to our podcast giving us a five -star review all these things help us and they're free to you they just take a few seconds to do and they help get us out there more where more people will see us and if you want to support us financially you can do that as well uh if you follow the link to our patreon down in the description and you can go give to us there financially and we certainly certainly appreciate that if you decide to do so and until the next episode we'll see this has been another episode of bible bashed we hope you have been encouraged and blessed through our discussion we thank you for all your support and ask you to continue to like and subscribe to bible bashed and share our podcast with your friends and on social media please reach out to us with your questions pushback and potential topics for us to discuss in future episodes at bible bashed podcast at gmail .com