August 29, 2017 Show with Rich Jensen on “Walls of Separation: Where They Are Required & Where They Must be Torn Down”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio

platform on which pastors, Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues

facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, iron sharpens iron, so one

man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, quote, we are cautioned to take heed whom we

converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another

wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour, and we hope to hear

from you, the listener, with your own questions.

Now here's our host, Chris Zarns.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County,.

Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at

ironsharpensironradio .com.

This is Steve Brown of Reformed Theological Seminary, professor of homiletics,

filling in for Chris Zarns today.

No, that's just a joke because I have something wrong with my throat today that occurred in the middle of the

night, and for some reason I sound like homiletics professor Steve Brown.

I don't know why.

But this is Chris Zarns and your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, and I'm delighted to have

two old friends, very dear friends of mine, and I'm not referring to their ages, I'm referring to the

age that I've known them, or the number of years that I've known them.

Rich Jensen returns as a guest today, pastor of Hope Reform Baptist Church of Medford,

Long Island, New York.

He's also going to be discussing a special visit from Dr. Tomi Costa

of Toronto Baptist Seminary, who'll be preaching at Hope Reform Baptist Church of Long Island, as well

as the Word of Truth Church in Farmingville, Long Island, not far away, and also on the

program co -hosting alongside Reverend Buzz Taylor, who is my in

-studio co -host.

We have on the phone co -hosting with me, Anthony Uvinio of New York Apologetics.

But first of all, let me welcome back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Pastor Rich Jensen.

It's good to have you back, and some of the

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio listeners may remember, or that name Rich Jensen may ring a bell

to you, because Pastor Rich Jensen was a moderator at a debate that I

orchestrated a number of years ago between two very dear friends of both of ours,

Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries, who's a Reform Baptist, and Pastor Bill Shishko, formerly

of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church in Franklin Square.

He's still a member there, but he is now the domestic missionary for

Reformation Metro New York, and they debated on infant baptism, and

Pastor Rich Jensen was the moderator, so many of you may recall that, seeing that on YouTube

or some other location.

And it's also great to have back on the program, this time as a

second co -host, Anthony Uvinio of New York Apologetics.

Great to have you back.

Chris, thanks for having me.

I really appreciate it.

And in studio with me is the Reverend Buzz Taylor.

So it's getting a little bit crowded here.

Yep, and if anybody would like to join us on the air, our email address is chrisarnsen at

gmail .com, C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the USA, and you may remain

anonymous if it's about a personal and private matter that you are asking.

And first of all, before we even go into the topic at hand, Pastor Rich Jensen,

the Iron Sharpens Iron audience is growing very rapidly, and I am typically

hearing from new listeners that have just discovered the program nearly every day, who

have fallen in love with the program and have begun listening regularly.

They will perhaps be unaware of what Hope Reform Baptist Church of Medford, Long Island is.

So why don't you tell our listeners about that church?

We are a reformed Baptist church

of

21 years.

We were planted here of getting

the doctor.

And you are a retired homicide detective with the Suffolk County Police Department.

That's correct.

And you were, at one time, the youngest homicide detective in the history of the force.

Do you know if anybody has beaten that record?

No.

Well, I was the youngest detective.

I made that when I was 25 years old.

Okay.

But I wasn't the youngest homicide detective.

Usually, you don't get into homicide from being young.

You have to have been around a few years.

Well, has anybody beaten your detective record as far as your youth?

I don't really know. I haven't heard. I

don't know.

That's good.

And Anthony Uvinio, let our listeners know about New York Apologetics.

We are an apologetics organization on www .NewYorkApologetics

.com.

And what we do is go on to college campuses and high schools and even in some churches and just try to

train people up on the arguments.

So many times, these kids go to college

attacking their beliefs.

And a lot of times, these young adults don't know how to answer.

And I think in the church, we've been taught what to think.

We haven't been taught how to think.

So when we start going through these arguments, the evidential

arguments for the existence of God, it opens a whole new world to them.

And we try to explain to them that without around

here and seeing more and more people.

Great.

Well, we have to see if we can.

Arrange something for New York Apologetics out here in Carlisle on the campus of Dickinson College.

Dickinson College is right down the road from me, the many campuses of Dickinson

College.

You may remember that when you were out here moderating the debate that Dr. Tony Costa

had with Robert St. Genes, the Roman Catholic apologist on the immaculate conception and

sinlessness of Mary.

And quite a large campus they have.

And there are Christians there that have ministries on campus.

So maybe we could work some kind of special event out sometime.

It's a very liberal school, but there are a tiny remnant or there is a tiny remnant of

evangelicals who are basically laboring on the mission field there.

I would love that opportunity.

That'd be a terrific thing to collaborate on.

And speaking of Tony Costa, Tony Costa is coming out

to Long Island, New York, not only to speak at Hope Reform Baptist

Church of Long Island, but also at the Word of Truth Church.

And Pastor Rich Jensen and Tony, Anthony, I should say, you are both

actually involved in this three -day weekend of events, are you not, in regard to

the Gospel of the Reformation 500th anniversary, which starts at the Word of Truth

Church in Farmingville, Long Island on Friday, September 29th and ending on

September 30th, Saturday.

And then Tony Costa is coming over to Hope Reform Baptist Church for the Sunday morning

worship service, Sunday, October 1st at 11 a .m.

But this is all a part of the Gospel of the Reformation 500th anniversary celebration,.

Is it not?

Yes, that's correct, in the

Long

Island

spurge.

Amen.

Well, we are talking,.

Oh, but let me give some information, even though we're going to be repeating it.

If anybody would like to find out more about the Word of Truth Church, where the first

two days of the Gospel of the Reformation celebration are being held,

the Word of Truth Church website is WOTChurch .com, WOT,

standing for Word of Truth, Church .com, WOTChurch .com.

The phone number there is 631 -806 -0614, 631

-806 -0614.

And then on, as I said, on Sunday, October 1st at 11 a .m., Dr. Tony

Costa of Toronto Baptist Seminary, who is the professor of apologetics and Islam there,

he will be also speaking at Hope Reformed Baptist Church of Medford, Long Island, New

York.

And you can go to their website, hopereformedli .net,

hopereformedli, for LongIsland .net,

or call them at 631 -696 -5711, 631 -696 -5711 for more details on how to get to

that location and so on.

But today we are talking about a controversial issue.

We've been hearing a lot about building a wall during not only the presidential

primaries, but even subsequent to President Trump winning the election for the

presidency of the United States.

We've been hearing a lot about a wall being erected, although it's not happened yet.

But there are other walls of separation that are even vitally more important

than that wall.

And I'm talking about primarily walls that Christians should

have erected between themselves and those who profess to

be Christians but have a false gospel, and even those who don't even profess to be Christians at

all, but they are members of world religions and cults.

And therefore there has to be a wall of separation where not only

those from the respective churches or religions are aware that there

is a wall of separation dividing them, but also that

the world at large knows that there is a wall of separation.

And there are also walls that Christians erect when they

fall into the error on the other end of the spectrum of ecumenism or modern -day

ecumenism, liberal ecumenism.

When they fall into the opposite extreme of that, they can become cultic or isolationist,

and they just bring their separation to such an extreme that they are cutting off

fellowship with those who are truly brothers in Christ, brothers and sisters in Christ

for whom Christ died.

And that would be an error as well, a serious error.

But as far as a wall of separation that is required...

And by the way, Anthony Uvino, please, since I can't see you, please chime in at any time that you

think that there's an opening or a break in our conversation.

You could chime in anytime because I can't see you, so I don't know when you have an interest in joining the conversation.

So you don't have to wait for me to call upon you.

But Pastor Rich, there is an

ecumenical movement that began with the liberals

where Protestants said that the theological

differences that they had with Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox were

not serious enough, not important enough, to have a wall of separation.

And they welcomed full, unfettered fellowship with Roman

Catholics and Eastern Orthodox and others because they believed that the

things that they had in common were enough to unite them.

And that has now left the exclusive

backyard of liberalism.

And over the past number of years, maybe even the last decade or so, or

more, more and more conservatives or professedly conservative Protestants are

linking arms with Roman Catholics and claiming and identifying that they are

indeed our brothers in Christ because they are joining us, standing

together with us with locked arms in opposition to abortion, in

opposition to same -sex marriage, and a lot of other things that any

person with a biblical worldview would find abhorrent.

Where does Hope Reform Baptist Church and where do you specifically stand on that issue of

separation from Rome and Eastern Orthodox and all others who profess to be Christian,.

Who do not share the gospel of the Reformation?

Well, again, I think it's a complex question, and we can see that just by how long it took you to ask

it.

I mean, there are different levels, if you want to put it

that way, to

Matthew, Henry,

and probably who we even

associate with.

And so, I mean, the

evangelical Christians, we know they're brothers in Christ, but yet it's not necessarily to

try and engage in,

treat them as non -believers, absolutely not.

But where you have some...

I can't imagine evangelical Christians, someone

who has been regenerated by the Holy Spirit, who understands what

Christ did on the cross and his resurrection and his ascension into heaven,

participating or giving credence to a man.

I just, to me, that defies imagination, how you could possibly do that

if you really understand what the Roman Catholic doctrine of the mass is.

So, I think clearly separation, can we stand,

yes, we

have groups that

evangelize on the street, but when they're standing in front of the abortion clinic,

preaching the gospel as much to them as we are to the young ladies who are going into the abortion

clinic.

If they're holding to all the doctrines, we

can stand on the line together and we're not going to shoo them away, but on the other hand, we can't say that we're in

full agreement with.

What they're doing.

Right, I have heard from people who are evangelical

Protestants, who if they happen to be at a Roman Catholic

wedding where the mass is involved, or a funeral, or for some other reason, that they

find themselves in a Roman Catholic church.

I have heard people say that they will take the Roman Catholic Eucharist and they say,

well, I'm just thinking about something else in my mind when I'm taking it.

I'm not thinking of it the way Rome views the mass and the

Eucharist.

I'm thinking of it in more of a Protestant way in my mind, but I just, I

partake of it nonetheless, even though they have a different opinion.

Now, isn't this really outside the bounds of proper Christian behavior?

First of all, the Roman Catholic Church doesn't even want you to partake in their mass if you

deny transubstantiation, that those elements are actually and truly

the body and blood of Christ, and it's ironic that they only give the laity the body and

only give them the bread or the wafer,.

But this is not proper behavior, is it, Mr.

Rich?

Oh, I can't imagine.

I do know people that do that.

I do know people that do that.

Yeah, I think it certainly shows, at the very least,

a naivete.

How can you possibly participate in something where they're saying that they're crucifying Christ again,

you know?

He's being sacrificed again.

I can't imagine how...

Well,.

Yeah, I'm thinking about that.

And they actually, because of the fact that they believe that is truly Christ, that is the

actual body and blood of Christ, they worship those elements.

Those elements are actually idols because they actually worship

them.

And just to...

Go ahead, I'm sorry.

No, go ahead.

Anthony Uvini, I'll call upon you now because of the fact that you are, just like I am, a

former Roman Catholic.

You were raised Roman Catholic, and at some point in your life, the Lord, in his sovereignty, saved you and

drew you out of that church.

What do you say to

your say to them, I can't partake in this ceremony?

In fact, I've had friends here in Carlisle, Pennsylvania, who have very recently

had to risk offending their family.

And I think that there was some offense taken because one of the

nieces was not only baptized,

but niece and nephew were baptized into the Catholic Church.

But you also had an older niece having the confirmation, the

sacrament of confirmation.

And this friend of mine, who actually led me to Christ 30 years ago, said

that she could not participate in these celebrations.

Do you have...

You face similar.

Things, Anthony, and how do you approach them?

Yeah, I do face similar things.

I don't want to say,

fortunately,

my

family

isn't,

because they don't

get in

my merit to

the

Roman

Catholic

Church

or religion

of

works,

or could

do,

came

to

the

inside of Jesus.

Get me

down

off of

him.

He's acknowledging in

Christ and repentance of your eternal life.

He was nailed to a cross.

There was no work he could possibly do to merit him getting into heaven.

You're at a time that you have to go through

for the purging of

your

sins.

Yeah, well, I

have found it

interesting in my own experience,.

Not with my family, but with the families of close friends,

that even nominal Catholics can tend to be quite hostile

and outraged if someone converts to biblical Christianity,

just because of the fact that that is somehow connected to a family tradition, because of the fact that

you're calling into question the salvation of all of the ancestors of that

family.

In fact, I even know a Jewish brother in Christ

who, when he was a nominal Jew, along with his family, who were

not kosher, they just celebrated the Passover and some

other Jewish festivals, and they had bar mitzvahs and things like that, but they weren't

really Orthodox Jews, and they weren't committed to Judaism in any way, in a serious

way.

And yet, when this brother that I know, who was a male stripper,

when he came to Christ and abandoned all that, his mother set Shiva for

him and wrote him off as dead, and so did his father.

And when he attended a funeral with his Christian wife, Gentile Christian

wife, of a family member who had passed away, the mother physically

attacked his wife and had to be bodily removed from her.

So this is quite an interesting phenomenon, where you have people who aren't really even

truly, actively involved in the religion that they claim is their own, and yet they have this

hostility to the new birth, and to Christianity that is a

genuine Christianity from the Scriptures.

Pastor Rich Jensen, isn't it true that the world,

although they may say they have a love for Jesus

or they have an appreciation for Him, as even Jewish people in the 21st century will tell you

that they have an appreciation for Jesus, that He was a good man, and so on.

But when you push the envelope of genuine Christianity, Biblical Christianity,

it evokes great hostility.

Very often, does it not, Pastor Rich?

Yeah, absolutely.

You know, people, and

when you reveal that you

don't want to hear that, all everybody wants to know is, oh yeah, Jesus is this nice, loving teacher who taught everybody to

sit around the campfires and kumbaya, and we're all going to just get along together.

But when you find out that what he said, number one, he was the one who spoke more about hell than any other Biblical,

two, he is the one who is going to come and judge the world.

He is the one who's going to say at the last day that, you know, depart from me.

I never knew you.

When you start painting what the full picture of Jesus is, not only is He loving, but He's going

to be avenging God, and that's

when they react negatively to it, because everybody just wants this

nice picture.

Unfortunately, that's not just the world, Chris.

You find that same thing within the Evangelical Church, supposed Evangelical Church today.

You start talking about Jesus coming as judge, and they don't want to hear it.

You're absolutely right.

Yes, the answer to your question is yes, that's exactly what you find.

When they find out who Jesus really is, He is God, He is holy, and He can't

stand sin.

We're going to a break right now.

If anybody would like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

ChrisArnson at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live

outside of the USA, and please only remain anonymous if it is

about a personal and private matter that you are asking about.

We welcome questions and comments from people who agree with us, who

vehemently oppose what we're saying, or those who are just not certain.

We look forward to hearing from you and your questions for Pastor Rich Jensen when we return from this break,

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And if you just tuned us in, our guest today for the full two hours with 90 minutes to go

is Pastor Rich Jensen of Hope Reform Baptist Church of Medford, Long Island, New York,

and we are speaking on walls of separation, where they are required, and where they must be torn

down.

We have two co -hosts today.

We have on the phone Anthony Uvinio of NewYorkApologetics .com and also in

studio is the Reverend Buzz Taylor.

If you'd like to join us on the air with a question, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com,

chrisarnson at gmail .com, and we have the.

Reverend Buzz Taylor who has a question.

Yes, when we bring up the subject of walls of separation, I can't help

but interpret that in light of my own past, which,

you know, Chris mentioned that you were old friends, but not in age, so I'm not sure how old you are, but I

attended Bob Jones University in the 70s, and it seemed

to me that the cardinal doctrine back then was separation, and it was largely between

brothers in Christ, and then they had a doctrine that was referred to as second degree separation, like if

you not only separated from neo -evangelicals, but you had to separate from those who were associated with neo -evangelicals, and

I remember one of my biggest fears of going into the ministry was that I was going to violate some, you

know, cardinal doctrine.

Of separation.

Could you address that?

Pastor Rich?

Yeah, and yes, I'd be happy to, and I am familiar with that, because when I was a

kid, I was a camp counselor down at Pinebrook Bible Conference, and

the reason I bring it up

is because a lot of the counselors came from Bob Jones University, so I'm very

familiar, you know.

Yeah, and I think that's one of

the dangers.

Look, there's no question that your doctrine

and how that works out, it might be difficult to work with other

evangelical Christians.

I would find it very difficult with somebody who

is a full Arminian, because we're going to approach what we're going to say and everything else, it would be very difficult.

It doesn't mean I'm going to shun the guy, it doesn't mean I'm going to push him away, it's just that there's certain things

that we can't really do together.

You're talking.

About if you were like side by side with that Arminian and evangelizing the same people, that's.

What you're referring to, correct?

Yeah, I mean, it would be very difficult, because we're going to say some things that are very, very different.

Doctrine matters, and by the way, all doctrine is practical.

Doctrine affects how you think, what you do,

and

the way you're

going to

approach men

coming from a Reformed

perspective.

Not shunning

them,

but

how can you,

about causing,

if we understand that

you can't treat them in a harsh manner and in an unloving manner, you have to love them,

but that doesn't mean that you have to be able to do everything with them, and I think that's where he's

appalled, you can't just say one blanket policy.

Go ahead, I'll continue.

I think that's what, you know, we see in Scripture.

God's law was given, and of course, coming from a Reformed perspective, I believe that God's law is still binding on us today, of

course.

He's also given us the book to explain to us how do you apply that law in certain

circumstances, and we need to understand, you

know, how I

even just

apply that to how I'm going to have a relationship with a

true believer and the others.

And Reverend Buzz Taylor

is...

Yeah, I just wanted

to mention also, in addition,.

That the reason I mentioned that I attended back in the 70s is because I haven't had that association in now

many decades, and I'm not sure if they still take the same stance on that or not.

Well, all I do know is that the current president of Bob Jones

University just preached recently back in

August, I think it was, I'm sorry, April, I think, I can't remember.

It was just, it was not that long ago I attended the sermon audio conference in

Manhattan, which is called the Foundations Conference, and

Dr. Pettit, the, I think it's Steve Pettit, the current

president of Bob Jones University, he preached there along with Reformed men,

and I can tell you that if you do not know anything about the background of Bob Jones University, you would

swear you were hearing a Calvinist preach, because he was actually clearly identifying as his own

view the Reformed Ordo Salutis, the order of salvation, although he did not call it that,

it was clear that he was giving that.

You know, along with that too, though, we're talking here about, you know, separating over doctrine and

things, and I think we need to be careful to point that out, because there are

still, I'm sure, a number of people on the landscape today who, like, for example,

years ago, one particular preacher was accused of having Modernists and Compromisers on the

platform with him, and it turned out that the Modernist and Compromiser was so, because he was wearing wire -rimmed

glasses.

And back when you were going to Bob Jones University, Buzz, there was even only a certain

a group of churches that the students were allowed to attend for worship, am I right, and that the only

Calvinist churches that were given the green light by Bob Jones at that time.

Were the Free Presbyterian Church congregation.

Well, I'm not exactly certain about that, because I was a Fundamentalist and a Baptist and everything at that time,

and I didn't know.

The other groups either, so.

Okay, well, my friend, in fact, a mutual friend of

myself and Rich Jensen, Joe Bianchi, his daughter went there, and I believe that that.

Rule was still in force.

I was there with Ian Paisley's daughter.

Yeah, it's an odd thing that they had a great admiration and respect for the Free Presbyterian Church of North

America congregations, which is thoroughly Calvinistic, but because of the fact that they took a very strong

stand against Catholicism, it seemed to win them over to want.

To have fellowship with them.

But Pastor Rich, people divide over every little thing they can find nowadays, whether you use the King

James Version of the Bible, wire -rimmed glasses.

Well, I don't think that one still exists, the wire -rimmed glasses.

Well, I hope not, but that was back in the days when I guess that meant you were a hippie or.

Something, I don't know.

Right.

But your point is that many churches, perhaps they are

still a minority today because the biggest problem today is the modern ecumenical movement

making inroads or already having made inroads into evangelicalism, but there are

still people that do divide over things that are unbiblical reasons for division.

Am I right,.

Pastor Rich?

Yes, and again, that's most unfortunate.

I mean, look, even, again, here on Long Island, we've formed this Long Island Spurgeon Fellowship, and

the main criteria,

the fellowship and do

the things that

we, and the

reason

for

the

fellowship,

and I think we have to have the freedom to do that.

Let me ask you a question about that.

When I became a member of what was then the Calvary Baptist Church of

Amityville, Long Island, and which later became Grace Reformed Baptist Church of Long Island in

Merrick, when I first became a member, not long

after I was baptized, they said to me that

I did not need to agree with everything in the 1689

London Baptist Confession, especially since I was a new believer, but I did have to submit to the fact that that

was the teaching of the elders, and I could not attempt to undermine it

amongst the congregation.

Would that be a similar stance that you take?

Because when you are insisting that somebody agrees with a confession, that can require sometimes

years of growth and understanding.

Of course.

I mean, look,.

Me.

Right.

Okay, and I'm not going to mention it because I don't want to bring it up again.

Everybody knows what I'm talking about.

At least Reformed Baptists do.

In fact, we tell

the people, we tell them,

you know, we do

that so

that they're getting into,

all right?

Because especially if they're coming

from a somewhat different, and if they're coming from any other church as well, we want them to know.

Again, and it's pretty much exactly what you said.

They cannot undermine it.

If they disagree with something, they have to tell me about it, and we can talk those things through and see whether or

not this is the church for them or not.

But yes, I don't expect them to

teach seminary courses.

All right, we have a question.

From Ted in Tuscaloosa, Alabama.

He says, in the last few years, I've heard of an increasing number of evangelical

believers, including some pastors, who have taken up Roman Catholic

devotions such as the Liturgy of the Hours.

When I ask them how they reconcile, when I ask them, I lost my

place here.

Let's see, Liturgy of the Hours.

Okay, when I ask them how they reconcile this practice with the inevitable bad theology,

such as prayers for the dead and Marian devotion, they typically respond, oh, I

just skip over those parts.

I am curious to hear your guest's take on this.

Yeah, I've heard about similar things.

I was just at a Bible conference not long ago in Indianapolis, the Gospel Coalition Conference,

and Tim Keller, who is one of the founders of the Gospel Coalition, during one of his messages was

discussing how he meditates on Catholic authors, and he was speaking about one

particular Catholic author that's one of his favorites.

Isn't this treading.

On dangerous ground here?

Yes, I think so.

You know how I usually handle something like that?

I tell them, let me put it to you this way.

Suppose you come over to my house for dinner, and I have two bowls of stew, and I tell you, here, this

one here, it's got a couple of pieces of bad meat in.

When you get to them, just pick it out.

Which bowl are you going to choose?

Yes,.

And I've had that experience at your house.

Actually, I think it involved broken glass, but

anyway,

and I think that there should be a clarification, because

many of the Church Fathers who would predate Roman Catholicism,

no matter what Roman Catholic apologists will say, they will, of course, say that the

Church Fathers were all Roman Catholic, and we're all in one accord, in agreement over Roman Catholic

dogma, which is absolutely ridiculous and cannot be proven historically, but there are

Catholics with a small c from the past that there would be no problem with us meditating upon them,

reading them, and learning from them.

Augustine is a primary example, but isn't that true, that we shouldn't just shun everything.

Just because the word Catholic is attached to it?

No, but that's a different question.

What Buzz had mentioned was reading these things devotionally.

No, that was a listener.

There's a difference between that and going back and studying and learning, seeing how

theology has developed over the ages.

Yes, because

you happen to

be a big supporter of classical.

Christian education, which would involve students understanding what non -Christians believe

in order to have intelligent discourse and discussion and dialogue with them.

I'm glad you brought that up,.

Because Anthony and I are part of a group of men who are seeking to start a classical

Christian school here in Suffolk

County.

And that was not

planned.

But yeah, well, we will definitely repeat your contact information.

We have to go to a break right now.

If anybody else would like to join us, and we do have a couple of people still waiting to have their questions asked and answered, our email address

is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

If you have a question, chrisarnson at gmail .com, C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail

.com.

Please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside of the U .S .A.

And please only remain anonymous if you're asking about a personal and private matter.

But don't go away.

God willing, we will be right back right after these messages from our sponsors.

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Hi, I'm Chris Arnsen, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, here to tell you about an exciting offer from World

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Second, whenever possible, purchase the products or use the services that our sponsors advertise.

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Thirdly, you can also donate to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio by going to our website at

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Hi, I'm Pastor Bill Shishko, inviting you to tune in to A Visit to the Pastor's Study every Saturday

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Our time will be lively, useful, and I assure you, never dull.

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It also means that you don't have to worry about being assaulted by the pornographic, heretical, and

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Let Todd and Patty know that you heard about them on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

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Welcome back.

This is Chris Arns, and if you just tuned us in, our guest today for the full two hours with a little less than an hour to go is Rich

Jensen, pastor of Hope Reform Baptist Church of Medford, Long Island, New York.

We have two co -hosts today.

We have Anthony Uvinio of newyorkapologetics .com and also the Reverend Buzz Taylor.

And we are addressing the theme, walls of separation, where they are required and where

they must be torn down.

If you'd like to join us on the air with a question, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Chrisarnson at gmail .com.

In fact, you just heard the ad for the New American Standard Bible.

We have a winner today, at least our first winner today, of a New American Standard Bible

because he is a first -time questioner.

And we're going to be asking his question after I announce some very special and important

events that are taking place.

The first of which you heard me talking about earlier, the Word of Truth Church and the Long

Island Spurgeon Fellowship present the Gospel of the Reformation 500th Anniversary Celebration,

featuring guest speaker Dr. Tony Costa, who is the professor of apologetics and

Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary.

Joining him will be Pastor Caleb Bunch, Pastor Bruce Bennett, and Pastor Dave Corson.

This is at the Word of Truth Church in Farmingville, Long Island, on Friday, September 29th and Saturday,

September 30th.

If you'd like more details, go to wotchurch .com.

That's W -O -T, which stands for wordoftruthchurch .com,

wotchurch .com, or you

can call 631 -806 -0614, 631 -806 -0614.

The very next day, the first Sunday of October, Sunday, October 1st at 11 a

.m., Dr. Tony Costa, who I just mentioned, will be also speaking at Hope Reform Baptist Church

of Medford, Long Island, New York, the church

where my guest Rich Jensen serves as pastor.

And if you'd like to find out more information on directions and so on how to get to Hope Reform Baptist

Church of Medford, Long Island, New York, you can go to hopereformedli .net,

hopereformedli .net, and the LI stands for Long Island,

hopereformedli .net, or you

could call 631 -696 -5711, 631 -696 -5711.

Then, coming up in November, from the 17th through the 18th, the Alliance of

Confessing Evangelicals is having their Quaker Town Conference on Reformed Theology at the Grace

Bible Fellowship Church in Quaker Town, Pennsylvania.

I plan to be there with an Iron Sharpens Iron exhibitor's booth, so I hope you join me there as well.

And I am going to try to get out to the Word of Truth Church and the Hope Reform Baptist Church

of Long Island as well with an exhibitor's booth.

But the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals Conference is titled, For Still Our Ancient

Foe, obviously a line from Martin Luther's classic hymn, A Mighty Fortress, referring to Satan.

And speakers include Kent Hughes, Peter Jones, Tom Nettles, Dennis Cahill, and Scott Oliphant.

If you'd like to register for that conference from November 17th through the 18th, go to alliancenet .org,

alliancenet .org, click on Events, and then click on Quaker Town Conference

on Reformed Theology.

And then coming up in January, another event where I will be present, God willing, with the Iron

Sharpens Iron exhibitor's booth is the G3 Conference in Atlanta, Georgia.

The G3 standing for Grace, Gospel, and Glory.

And that will be held from the 17th through the 20th of January.

The 17th will be an exclusively Spanish -speaking edition of the conference, and the 18th through the 20th will

be exclusively done in English.

And the theme is Knowing God, a Biblical Understanding of Discipleship.

The speakers at the G3 Conference this time around include Stephen Lawson, Vody Balcom, Phil

Johnson, Keith Getty, H .B. Charles Jr., Tim Challies, Josh Bice, James White, Tom

Askell, Anthony Mathenia, Michael Kruger, David Miller, Paul Tripp, Todd Friel, Derek

Thomas, and Martha Peace.

If you would like to register for the G3 Conference, go to g3conference .com.

G3conference .com.

If you contact any of these organizations or churches or ministries to either register for their

events or just to find out more information about them, please always remember to tell them that you heard about those

events from Chris Arnzen from Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

Now it's the most difficult time of the program that I have to undertake.

That is the time of the program, the portion of the program where I have to beg you for money.

Because of the fact that I have advertisers who are spending hard -earned money to keep Iron Sharpens Iron Radio

on the air, I want to respect their wishes and their urgings

for me to make daily public appeals for donations and new advertisers

in order to keep Iron Sharpens Iron Radio on the air.

Those of you who are familiar with my program for years, going back to 2005 -2006 when I was

broadcasting out of New York, you know that I went for years without making one single appeal for a donation.

But times are rather desperate these days and the funding

is urgently needed in order to keep Iron Sharpens Iron Radio on the air.

In fact, we are behind in some of our major bills to keep this program afloat,

including live streaming charges and rent and so on.

So we really are hoping that you will prayerfully consider donating to Iron Sharpens Iron

Radio.

If you love this program, if it's a part of your daily habit of life, if you are edified by it, if you really don't want it

to disappear from the airwaves, then please consider donating to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio by going to

ironsharpensironradio .com ironsharpensironradio .com click on support and then

click on...

Then you'll be given an address.

When you click on support, you'll be given an address where you can mail a check made out to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio

for any amount.

And my caveat to that is always never ever ever siphon money out of your

regular giving to your local church where you are a member.

And if you're not a member of a local church, you need to rectify that very quickly in order to be obedient to

God and his word.

I don't want ever people to give less to their church than they normally give because they're giving to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

And nor do I want people taking food off of their family's dinner table if they're struggling to make ends meet.

But if you have been blessed above and beyond your ability to obey those two commands, providing for church and home,

please consider helping out Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

And if you'd like to advertise with us, send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com

chrisarnson at gmail .com whether you're a pastor, leader in a parachurch, a business owner,

corporate executive, a professional person such as a doctor, a lawyer, a

dentist, a chiropractor, or you have some kind of special event that you want to advertise.

As long as what you're promoting is compatible with the theology expressed on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, I would love to

work with you on an advertising campaign.

You don't have to be identical in your theology to me, but it just can't be in opposition to my

theology or have major conflict with it.

So I look forward to hearing from you.

Just send me an email at chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Chrisarnson at gmail .com and put advertising in the subject line.

And I hope to hear from many of you soon, because as I said, we are facing extremely difficult times.

But now we're back to our discussion on walls of separation, where they are required and where they must be torn down

with my guest, Pastor Rich Jensen of Hope Reform Baptist Church of Medford, Long Island, New York, my co -host Anthony

Uvino of newyorkapologetics .com and also my co -host in the studio, Reverend Buzz Taylor.

And that same email address applies if you have a question for them at chrisarnson at

gmail .com.

Chrisarnson at gmail .com.

I have a question, and this is from a first -time questioner who is winning a

New American Standard Bible because of that.

But this is a first time.

I don't think this has ever happened.

Grace Life Radio in Lake City, Florida airs a pre -recorded version of

Iron Trap and Zion Radio every day in morning drive, 8 to 10 a .m. and in the evening,

8 to 10 p .m. every day.

And I'm thinking they must have added a third airing of the pre -recorded show from the day

before during the 4 to 6 p .m. eastern time slot,

because I just got a question from a listener in Lake City, Florida who is

responding to yesterday's show.

This is a first time.

So when he listens to this program tomorrow, he will be hearing his question answered during

a totally different topic.

This is somewhat off topic because he's listening to yesterday's show, the pre -recorded version.

But I will ask it anyway.

His name is Ken, and he's in Lake City, Florida.

He says, Greetings, sir.

I enjoy listening to your program, but I must admit that we all tend to really complicate issues

of salvation that we obviously do not fully understand, myself included.

As I listened today, I heard spiritual speculation regarding what point in life salvation

actually takes place.

For instance, salvation at age 7 versus salvation after

understanding and repentance.

When it comes down to it, even after the work of Christ and true repentance, we will continue to

experience subsequent failures as we learn to yield to the working of the Holy Spirit.

Our works have no value before, during, or after salvation.

Christ chooses us.

He does the work in our hearts.

He gives us the very desire for Him.

He initiates the work, and He brings it to completion.

It is all about Him for His glory.

So this is more of a comment than a question.

I agree with a lot of what he's saying, but I do not agree that our works are of no importance.

They're just not salvific or meritorious.

What do you folks have to say?

Pastor Rich?

Yeah, of course, a reformed understanding, you know,

salvation is definitive at the end of the age.

So even to...

You have to clarify, when were you saved?

They're talking about when were you just regenerated.

So sanctification isn't there.

You have no reason to believe that you were.

Yes, and I don't know if I'm misunderstanding his statements, but he

was saying I heard spiritual speculation regarding what point in life salvation

actually takes place.

For instance, salvation at age 7 versus salvation after understanding and repentance.

Now, we as Reformed Baptists do not baptize infants.

And of course, there is an exception on the show today.

The Reverend Buzz Taylor is a Presbyterian.

He's my co -host, and he doesn't baptize infants.

Well, he did when he was a pastor, I guess.

But we believe that someone is baptized at a point when there is

a credible profession of faith and evidence of repentance.

We don't just tell a child that he or she should be safe in

their salvation just because they may sing Jesus loves me, this I know, for the Bible tells me so.

This listener seems to be, and I may be wrong, he seems to be removing that element

of repentance and faith from the knowledge that

one can have that he or she is saved.

Assurance of salvation.

Doesn't that, doesn't somebody need to demonstrate faith and repentance in order to have assurance?

Yeah, I mean, assurance, one can be saved without being

assured.

And in fact, you know, a new believer has doubts about their

salvation.

When you come to really see yourself as a sinner, which is the only way that anyone is saved,

you know, opens your spirit.

It's normal, because why would God save somebody like me?

But assurance is a product of sanctification and maturity in Christ.

We should all attain to an assurance, the scripture tells us.

And so while it's desirable, it's not always there,

and we'll take time to get to that.

I think, I'm not sure, because I didn't hear the show

yesterday, so I really don't know what he means by that.

What we were talking about, the fact that there is a difference between

someone who may have been living in the world in

really scandalous living, really overtly

wicked behavior, or perhaps even just total deadness and indifference to God and Christ,

who then comes to Christ, and there's something more remarkable

about their conversion experience.

I'm not saying it's any more precious or miraculous, I'm just saying that it's more of

an out -of -the -ordinary experience, where you see somebody who's overtly wicked falling to their

knees and crying out to Christ for forgiveness and mercy and becoming a Christian, than it is

for a person who is raised from infancy in a Christian home, who can never

really pinpoint exactly in their lives when they were born again, because as far as their memory

is concerned, they have always loved the Lord, going back to as far

as their brain was mature enough to even understand what that means.

So you have some people on one hand who say, I have no idea when I was saved, I was raised as a Christian,

so I've always loved the Lord to my knowledge, even though I know I'm a sinner and need a Savior, but

there was no moment, this crisis moment that I can recall, where I

realized I'm going to hell and I need a Savior, where most of us perhaps

have the other experience where we said to ourselves, wow, we are going to hell and we

definitely need salvation.

So a lot of that conversation was also stemming from fundamentalists who will tell you that you are

not saved unless you can remember the exact date of your salvation.

Now, there's nothing in the Bible that says that, right?

So, well, thank you, Ken in Lake City, Florida.

You're listening to this a day late, but if you give me your full mailing address in Lake City,

Florida, we will be sending you a new New American Standard Bible, compliments of the

publishers of the NASB, and also compliments of Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service,

cvbbs .com, cv for Cumberland Valley, bbs for BibleBookService .com.

And we thank Todd and Patty Jennings for being faithful supporters of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio and shipping out all of our

winners in the Iron Sharpens Iron audience, their free Bibles, books, and other items that they win when they submit

questions to us.

We have Jeff in Clinton Township, Michigan.

He says, Greetings regarding doctrinal differences among churches.

I often heard Hank Hanegraaff say that we can vigorously debate the issues, but we

need not divide over them.

Hank is now a member of the Greek Orthodox Church.

I've seen John MacArthur, a Credo Baptist, on the same platform as R .C. Sproul, a Pado

Baptist.

I've heard Phil Johnson, an Evangelical, and Chris Roseborough, a Confessional Lutheran,

together warn us of Tim Keller, a Presbyterian, and Rick Warren, a Southern Baptist.

My question is, how was it decided which doctrines of our faith would be secondary

issues not worth dividing over?

That's a very excellent question.

In fact, he lists some, Credo Baptism versus Pado Baptism, literal six -day creation versus

evolution, different end times, frameworks, etc.

Well, I mean, there are certain things that

anybody, of course, I mean, one of the most obvious, anybody who

denies that person, I mean, I

mean, some of those are easy.

But then, this is, again, this is where you have to

be very careful.

Some of these issues are very, take Baptism.

I mean, I mean, I'm a Credo, have so many good

friends who are, and we

disagree vehemently over those things.

But it is not enough to divide us because we hold to the, we understand the gospel and what

the gospel is.

And I think that's really the key is, you know, when you move outside the bounds of

where the heresy, every error and doctrine is a heresy.

I think that's where you can draw the hard and fast line.

Some of the other lines are not that, and

there needs to be room for debate.

It's interesting that the major confessions,

the Westminster Confession of Faith, the London Baptist Confession of Faith, the Savoy Declaration, the Three

Forms of Unity, the 39 Articles, that none of them

specify a required eschatology other than that Christ is truly, physically,

invisibly returning, and that the dead will be raised and so on.

Outside of that, there seems to be, even amongst our Reformed forefathers,

some, without people misunderstanding what I'm saying, some liberalism

when it comes to the welcoming of people with different understandings of eschatology and some

things like that.

Your comments?

That's very true.

In fact, even in our church, we have representatives from the three major

views, you know, historic premillennialism, amillennialism, and post -mortemism, and it's not an issue in

the church.

I mean, we have some great discussions, but it's not an issue.

Now, obviously, you couldn't be a dispensational premillennialist or

join Hope, let me put it that

way.

And this also reminds me of different levels of separation

because of the fact that you were just mentioning how we, who are Reformed

Baptists, have and enjoy great, deep, close

fellowship with conservative Presbyterians and conservative Dutch Reformed folk and others.

And we even have conservative Presbyterians preach in our pulpits, and

they, likewise, very often have Reformed Baptists preach in their pulpits.

We read each other's books and so on.

But most Reformed Baptists, as much as they may love Sinclair

Ferguson and really would love to have him preach for them as often as

he was available, they would not permit him into membership because of the difference on

baptism, nor would most Presbyterians permit into at least

an office -bearing membership a Reformed Baptist who rejected paedo -baptism.

So there are different levels of fellowship and separation, and that would even, we could even go beyond that

into the signed gifts.

You might have a Reformed scholar preach in your pulpit who was not a cessationist, but

I doubt many Reformed Baptist churches would welcome them into leadership in the church.

Am I right on this?

Yes, I think you're right.

Well, thank you, Jeff, in Clinton Township, Michigan.

I keep listening to Iron Sharpens Iron and keep spreading the word about it in Michigan and

beyond.

Now, one of the things I think that we should bring up, because it's constantly hurled at us, those of us who have

a concept and an adherence to any kind of separation and opposition to

Rome and Eastern Orthodoxy as having false gospels, they will say, many people, not

only those who are Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox, but even those who are evangelicals, who

are participants in the modern ecumenical movement, they will say that this is

hateful.

It's coming from bigotry.

It's coming from arrogance and pride.

But isn't it loving not to deceive people who have a very serious

and damning doctrine that they have adopted?

Isn't it not loving to make them aware of that?

Or should I say, isn't it not loving to not make them aware of that is what I meant to say?

Isn't it the truly loving thing to warn them about their false teachings?

That's probably a better way of putting it.

It's more that we have an obligation to do so.

And you're absolutely right,

Ten Commandments hanging from our...

In fact,

you know what I

tell

my

congregation?

I said, if you're living a consistent Christian life and you've never been called,

you're probably not living a consistent Christian life.

On the other hand, don't ever be...

You have to be very careful.

Soon as you start standing for truth, people are going to get offended because people do not like moral absolutes.

And that's true even in the church.

They won't say that, but that's exactly the thing.

Soon as you start saying, no, that's exactly what they...

And I think...

I'm sorry, Chris.

I would just like to piggyback on that for a second because a lot of times we're told as Protestants that we

are divisive.

And last I looked, it was the Council of Trent that pronounced over a hundred and something anathemas on us as

Protestants.

Amen.

They've clearly drawn a line in the sand and said that if we don't hold to the doctrines that

are only cursed...

Yes.

At the same time...

Yet at the same time, this is what boggles my mind.

If you're a Muslim, a sincere Muslim, you have possible entrance into heaven.

If you're a Jew, a sincere Jew, you have possible entrance into heaven.

If you're an atheist, a sincere atheist who lacks knowledge of God, you can get to

heaven.

Everyone can get to heaven except for the people who actually place their faith and trust in Jesus Christ alone for their salvation.

It just boggles my mind how they can hold to something like that.

So when somebody tells me, oh, your doctrines divide, I say, yes, my doctrines divide.

Truth from error.

I agree with you.

Yeah, well, that's where the Catholic Church in the 21st century and really beginning in the

middle of the 20th century began speaking out of

both sides of their mouths on the onset of after

the existence of Vatican II where you have people

on the one hand saying that the Council of Trent is still binding dogma.

In fact, dogma is always binding in the Roman Catholic religion.

You cannot have a dogma that disappears.

Dogmas are things that are forever binding on the faithful Catholic until

Christ returns.

The other teachings that they have, like in their catechism, where they are

welcoming people from non -Christian religions into

fellowship with them and where it is stated that they have an opportunity to go to heaven as

Jews and Muslims and Buddhists and others.

Those are not dogmas.

So the Catholic Church is really deceiving people.

I'm not saying that they're all consciously, knowledgeably deceiving us, but those two things are very

different.

The Trent is dogma that declares the anathemas against Protestants.

That can never disappear.

In fact, if you notice, Pope Francis, the most liberal pope in the history of the Catholic Church, has said

or done nothing to condemn, renounce, or overturn the Council of Trent.

He can't.

But some of those things that are in the catechism and those things that are in the Vatican too that were just stated

as disciplines or teachings, those things may change.

In fact, your more conservative Catholic, like Robert St. Genes, he

would totally denounce the Catholic catechisms acceptance of

non -christian religions like Judaism and Islam and other

religions as offering a way into heaven.

He rejects that totally.

So the Catholic Church of the 21st century is definitely a very confusing,

jumbled up, confusing mess really of heresy.

But we are going to our final break right now.

If you'd like to join us on the air, now is the time to do it before we run out of time.

Our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside of the USA.

And please only remain anonymous if it's about a personal and private matter over which you are asking.

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Welcome back.

This is Chris Arnzen, and we are now in our final 25 minutes of our interview with Rich Jensen,

pastor of Hope Reform Baptist Church of Medford, Long Island, New York.

And joining me as co -hosts are Anthony Uvino of newyorkapologetics .com, and the

Reverend Buzz Taylor is in studio with me.

If you'd like to join us on the air, I would advise you to do so now before we run out of time.

Our email address is chrisarnzen at gmail .com, chrisarnzen

at gmail .com.

And please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you

live outside of the USA, and only remain anonymous if it is about a personal and private matter

over which you are asking.

And we have, by the way, Anthony Uvino had to depart the program.

He had some obligations that he had to participate in.

So we thank Anthony for being on the program with us today.

We have a first -time listener from Long Island, New York.

He doesn't specify what town.

But Eric says, Can you explain what 2 John 5

verse 10 means?

If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house

or give him any greeting, for whoever greets him takes part in his wicked works.

That's an excellent question because as you may know, Pastor Rich, there are even conservative

Christians who disagree with one another on what that means.

Some would even say that you should never let a Jehovah's Witness into your house when he comes to your

door, even if you are knowledgeable enough to sit there, discuss

your differences with them, and refute their beliefs through the Bible.

They would say, No reason at all allows you to welcome that person into your house.

And other people, other Christians say that that is referring to somebody who's actually setting up

some kind of a ministry or religious outreach in your home

that would be bent on not only deceiving the members of your family, but those

outside of your home from your house as like a headquarters of some kind.

What is your opinion on this?

Okay.

Well, firstly, you have to understand Second John in light of First John.

I think that's my take on it.

And in fact, Third John in light of First John as well.

And what John has been refuting, if you read the Gospel, I mean the Epistle of First John,

mostly what he's refuting is the Gnostic heresy.

Those who went out,

that's where he actually refutes being Antichrist.

So if you go back then to Second John and as

he's, if anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, he's still

referring to the same thing because again, I think it's very

off

somebody who is just,

because that's what all teachers, giving them any type of an

inroad and that has to be shunned at all costs.

And I believe that that's what John is referring to here.

I've heard the others, you know, now that they accept, I don't really think

that.

Well, let me give you an example just to have you further clarify what you're saying.

Our mutual friend, Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries has, until they marked his

house out as a house to be avoided at all costs, the Jehovah's Witnesses

used to come to his home and he would welcome them into his house knowing that they would be

trying to teach him false theology and a false gospel and a false Christ.

But he obviously was a man prepared to take apart and

dissect their false teaching and show them their error from the word of God.

But he wasn't letting them set up house in his own home to have a

kingdom hall or something like that.

Do you think that that kind of activity where especially when you have a seasoned, knowledgeable Christian,

knows that he can refute false teaching from someone who is coming to

his house to proselytize him, is that an appropriate action to let him in your

house?

Oh, absolutely.

He has.

That's exactly the

problem, too, is when they do, you know, we call it exegesis by

scissors.

You know, what do they do?

They take 2 John 10 Bible and then they forget anything else

that the Bible teaches.

You know, and that's wrong.

You have to look at every verse in light not only of the previous verse

warned against false teachers and not to give them air, you know, air to influence

them.

And yes, and if we can win our enemy to Christ.

And in fact, isn't it true that the only people, it seems, from the word of God, the New

Testament, that the only teaching that compels

us, warns us, commands us not to eat with someone or have any kind of

social relationship with them, it is when a person is professing to be a

fellow Christian and they are living an unrepentant life.

Isn't that really the only restriction to enjoying the company of

a non -believer?

I believe you're right.

It's the only one that I can think of off the top of my head if there's another one.

And again, that makes perfect sense.

Why would the apostle Paul say that?

Because that's going to damage the testimony of the church and it's going to infect the rest of the church, you know, and

we're talking about people who are excommunicated and they need to be treated in a certain way.

And again, even that is not hateful.

The most loving thing you can do is, as the soul

might be saved.

So I mean, we're not doing it out of vindict

and to the

enemy come against them, that they'll drop to their knees and repent of what they've done and then come back.

And that's, but that's a totally different circle.

Okay, I found out where Eric is from.

He's from Port Jefferson Station, Long Island, New York.

That's a town very familiar to you, obviously, Pastor Rich.

And thank you very much, Eric.

Eric is also a first -time questioner today.

And thank you for providing your mailing address, Eric, because you have also won a free

New American Standard Bible, compliments of the publishers of the NASB, and also compliments of

our friends at Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, CV for Cumberland Valley, BBS for BibleBookService

.com.

We'll actually be shipping that out to you.

And keep listening to Iron Sharp and Zion Radio, and keep spreading the word about it in Port Jefferson Station, Long Island,

and beyond.

Now this, what we were just talking about, actually, and I think it is in keeping with the walls of

separation theme.

How is what you were describing about, or we were both

describing, about how a Christian is supposed to be behaving with a

professing Christian that is living unrepentantly?

How are we supposed to woo them back to Christ, to the

church, to repentance, if we totally cut them off,

as we have heard the term with the Amish and some of the cults, the term shunning?

How are we, in our activity with the professing Christian in unrepentance,

different in our, how are we different in our activity than what would be called shunning?

Well, shunning means you don't talk to me.

In fact, you pretend that you're not even there.

I try to do that every day with Buzz Taylor on my program.

It's tough because I just don't go away.

But anyway, I'm sorry.

What we are commanded to do, and I'll just take one example, and again, there's different sections of scripture, depending on what the

sin is, but the overriding one that most people are more familiar with is Matthew 18, where Christ tells us, you know,

if your brother has sinned against you, go

to over

the

21 years that we,

that point would be,

and this is what

the conversation is.

When are you going to repent?

You understand, you understand the danger that you to

repent.

That has, that is the way we have practiced, and we've had at least one situation

where someone who had been excommunicated

came

back full repentance, and that's the

way it's supposed to work.

So you're not supposed to, go ahead, go ahead, I'm sorry.

No, I mean, what do we want them to do?

We want them to hear the gospel, and we want them to repent.

That's, that's the whole idea.

So you're not barring the unrepentant professing Christian from

attendance to the worship.

You're just barring them, perhaps, from the Lord's table and voting privileges and things like that.

Am I, am I correct on that?

Right.

Yes, I'm from Christian, from normal Christian fellowship.

We are not in fellowship, but it's freedom like a non -believer.

Right.

And of course,.

We don't, we don't walk, we don't walk around, you know, throwing darts at non -believers, you know, we don't, we

don't shove them to Christ.

Amen.

And the, the love involved in discipline

is sometimes overlooked, meaning that

there are people who view discipline as something harsh and mean and cruel,

when it can be the most loving thing that you could do.

Like, for instance, you know of my history of going through a season when I returned to

drunkenness, to a habitual, you know, state.

And I believe with certainty that if it were not for discipline, I would not be sitting here

with air in my lungs and a beating heart because of that discipline.

The discipline is not hateful or evil or vindictive.

It's, it's an act of love.

Am I right?

Exactly right.

It's a, it's the most loving thing you can do to that sinful

lifestyle.

And that's exactly, look, Christ,

and there's, that I would, we would never do that, you know, because that's harsh and unloving.

You're telling me then that you're more loving than Christ.

Right.

These are the words of Christ.

This is what we follow.

That's right.

You know, they may not see it that way, but there's an arrogance to that, that they know better, they're more caring, they care more for the

person than Christ does.

That's right.

It's simply not true.

And that goes hand in hand with ecumenism.

There are people who are saying that we are cruel and unloving and bigoted for not having

ecumenical relationships with Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox and others.

When the Apostle Paul was very clear that

the Judaizers were teaching a false gospel that was no

gospel at all, and that they were to be accursed.

And ironically, they, in many ways, might be even

less severely in contradiction to

evangelicalism in the Roman Catholic Church.

I mean, the Judaizers, all we know is that they required circumcision

for someone to become a Christian.

From what we can see, they didn't deny the deity of Christ.

Or that Christ's death was necessary.

We don't have anything in Paul's writings to the Galatians or anywhere else that they differed with us on

those things.

They just denied, obviously, the sufficiency of Christ's death because they insisted upon

circumcision.

So there you have people who are really expecting us to be more loving and tolerant

than the Apostle Paul.

And they think they are more loving and tolerant than the Apostle Paul.

Yeah, and, you know, it's interesting.

There's a verse in Proverbs that says, even the compassion of the wicked is cruel.

And by people thinking that they're being loving and not following the biblical mandate, they're actually being

cruel.

Because they're allowing people or placating people in their sin, which is the worst thing that you can do for them,

you know?

And the same thing with, you know, when we take it on a wider step,

liberals' status of our country when the

liberal mindset takes over and they want to just give everything away and they want to be loving and

kind.

And the next thing you know, I mean, there's no accountability and they're hurting people, you know?

Take it in this vein.

How do we help the poor system?

Our liberal system says, well, we just got to give them a handout.

That's what they need.

They need a handout.

And what does that do?

That makes them reliant on a handout.

And that person becomes miserable and you got generations of people just relying on a handout.

What's the biblical model?

Paul says, if you don't work, don't eat.

He doesn't eat.

That sounds cruel.

But it's better motivation that they may need to get a job,

you know?

Now, again, I'm not talking about people who can't work or who are on disabilities and stuff like that.

There's ways of handling that, too.

And actually, that should be the church.

But that's a whole other project.

We have BB in Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, who says, I fully

understand and agree with you that we are not to have ecumenical relationships with Roman Catholics and

Eastern Orthodox individuals, which means that we are not to participate in

worship gatherings or in religious activity that gives the false impression that we are viewing each other as

brothers and sisters in Christ.

However, what is your opinion on attending things such as a Roman Catholic

wedding or funeral where they are participating in a false rite or ceremony such

as the Mass?

Well, again, I think there needs to be a distinction made of giving

credence to the Mass and supporting and sympathizing with a family

who has lost a loved one.

And that's where it takes wisdom.

And I mean, clearly, if you're going up

front during the Mass and taking part in it, I think that might cross the line,

because now it looks like you're giving full heartiness to it.

Well, I think you're saying that tongue -in -cheek.

You're certain that we should not take part in the Mass, right?

Yes, that's what I'm saying.

No, I'm saying.

If somebody did that, that was an if.

If somebody did that, that would certainly give the impression that they're in full agreement with what's going on,

and the believer can't do that.

But there's nothing wrong with celebrating the wedding of someone.

I mean, I would go to a Jewish wedding.

I would go to a Native American wedding if they were having some kind of a wedding.

I just would not participate in the pagan ritual itself that was going on or the false

ceremony.

And I would just observe and celebrate after or mourn with those

who are grieving, as far as a funeral is concerned.

And there are ways in which you can support people, one, rejoice with them at the weddings, and two,

mourn with them during the funeral without actually taking part in the service.

There's many ways in which you can do that, and some of those ways may be better.

You know?

For example, at a funeral, for example, everybody's there.

Everybody's, you know, gathered around, and then maybe they go back to that,

because that's when reality starts to set in, and all the support is gone

more than actually joining in and being part.

And don't you think we should fully participate in whenever possible and enjoy

the company?

I wouldn't call it fellowship, but the company of Roman Catholics and those of other religions,

even Muslims and all kinds of religions, or even atheists, when they're having

barbecues, when they're having social gatherings, when they're maybe gathering for Thanksgiving.

It's always, I find it ironic and kind of comical that atheists would actually celebrate Thanksgiving.

Who are they thanking?

But if they invite you over to enjoy their company, and when

opportunity arises, evangelize them.

But don't you think that we need not be a non -stop

Christian robot who just is there for the sole purpose of proselytizing?

Don't you think that we should even let these people know that we care and love them by enjoying

their company in addition to taking advantage of those opportunities of evangelism?

Man outside of Christ, whoever, and that

includes,

we're

all

done to

the glory of

God.

Yes.

Befriend them.

See Christ in you.

Right, and I'm assuming that you would reject what has been called a lifestyle evangelism where

people don't ever bring up the gospel or a call to repentance, where they

just say, I'm just going to be a light of Jesus Christ by living in a wholesome and obedient way,

but I'm not going to evangelize those around me.

That would be a very wrong approach, and a disobedient approach, wouldn't it be?

That's a cop -out.

That's a cop -out for not doing what you're supposed to do.

We're told to always give an answer for, you know, to be able to give an answer for the hopes and lives of any to all who ask.

Yes, but just be quick.

I had a boss

for one

minute.

He said, so what does it mean to be born again?

He didn't help himself.

And if you're living it out, and for the next half hour...

Well, praise God for that.

Well, I want our listeners to know that the website of Hope Reform Baptist Church in Medford, Long Island, New York is

hopereformedli .net.

Hopereformedli .net.

Do you have any other contact information you care to give?

No, I think that's pretty much it.

Our telephone number is 631 -696 -5711.

631 -696 -5711.

And don't forget about the conference and the celebration of the 500th anniversary

of the Gospel of the Reformation, which begins on Friday, September 29th at the

Word of Truth Church in Farmingville, Long Island, continues through September 30th

at the Word of Truth Church, and then concludes on Sunday morning, October 1st at Hope

Reform Baptist Church of Long Island.

The Word of Truth website, again, is wotchurch .com.

W -O -T, for Word of Truth, church .com.

Thank you so much, Pastor Rich Jensen.

I look forward to your return very soon to Iron Trepans Iron Radio.

God bless, Chris.

And I want everybody to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior

than you are a sinner.