August 29, 2017 Show with Rich Jensen on “Walls of Separation: Where They Are Required & Where They Must be Torn Down”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors,

Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

Now here's our host, Chris Arntzen. Good afternoon,

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

This is Steve Brown of Reform Theological Seminary, professor of homiletics, filling in for Chris Arntzen today.

No, that's just a joke, because I have something wrong with my throat today that occurred in the middle of the night, and for some reason

I sound like homiletics professor Steve Brown. I don't know why. But this is

Chris Arntzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, and I'm delighted to have two old friends, very dear friends of mine, and I'm not referring to their ages.

I'm referring to the age that I've known them, or the number of years that I've known them.

Rich Jensen returns as a guest today, pastor of Hope Reform Baptist Church of Medford, Long Island, New York.

He's also going to be discussing a special visit from Dr. Tomi Costa of Toronto Baptist Seminary, who'll be preaching at Hope Reform Baptist Church of Long Island, as well as the

Word of Truth Church in Farmingville, Long Island, not far away, and also on the program co -hosting alongside

Rev. Buzz Taylor, who is my in -studio co -host. We have on the phone co -hosting with me

Anthony Uvinio of New York Apologetics. But first of all, let me welcome back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Pastor Rich Jensen.

Good afternoon, Chris. It's good to be back. It's good to have you back, and some of the

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio listeners may remember, or that name, Rich Jensen, may ring a bell to you, because Pastor Rich Jensen was a moderator at a debate that I orchestrated a number of years ago between two very dear friends of both of ours,

Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries, who's a Reformed Baptist, and Pastor Bill Shishko, formerly of the

Orthodox Presbyterian Church in Franklin Square. He's still a member there, but he is now the domestic missionary for Reformation Metro New York, and they debated on infant baptism, and Pastor Rich Jensen was the moderator, so many of you may recall that, seeing that on YouTube or some other location.

And it's also great to have back on the program, this time as a second co -host,

Anthony Eugenio of New York Apologetics. Great to have you back. Chris, thanks for having me.

I really appreciate it. And in studio with me is the Reverend Buzz Taylor. So it's getting a little bit crowded here. Yep, and if anybody would like to join us on the air, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com,

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. Please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the

USA, and you may remain anonymous if it's about a personal and private matter that you are asking.

And first of all, before we even go into the topic at hand, Pastor Rich Jensen, the

Iron Sharpens Iron audience is growing very rapidly, and I am typically hearing from new listeners that have just discovered the program nearly every day, who have fallen in love with the program and have begun listening regularly.

They will perhaps be unaware of what Hope Reform Baptist Church of Medford, Long Island is, so why don't you tell our listeners about that church?

We are a confessional, 1689 London Baptist Confession Reform Baptist Church, very traditional in our worship style and all typical of Reform Baptists.

We have, we just celebrated 21 years and looking forward to many more years serving

Long Island. We were planted here by Grace Reform Baptists from Merrick with the express purpose of getting the doctrines of grace and Reform theology to Suffolk County here in Long Island, New York.

And you are a retired homicide detective with the Suffolk County Police Department?

That's correct. And you were at one time the youngest homicide detective in the history of the force.

Do you know if anybody has beat that record? Well, that's not accurate. I was the youngest detective.

I made that when I was 25 years old. Okay. But I wasn't the youngest homicide. Usually, you don't get into homicide from being young.

You have to have been around a few years usually to get into homicide. More seasoned detectives usually.

Well, has anybody beaten your detective record as far as your youth? I don't really know.

I haven't heard. I don't really keep track of that, but I am still a chaplain for the department out here in Suffolk.

Oh, that's good. And Anthony Uvino, let our listeners know about New York Apologetics.

Yeah, we're an apologetics organization on the website is www .NewYorkApologetics

.com. And what we do is go on to college campuses and high schools and even in some churches and just try to train people up on the arguments for the existence of God.

So many times, these kids go to college and their professors, the first thing they start attacking their beliefs.

And a lot of times, these young adults don't know how to answer. And I think in the church, we've been taught what to think.

We haven't been taught how to think. So when we start going through these arguments, the philosophical arguments, the evidential arguments for the existence of God, it opens a whole new world to them.

And we try to explain to them that without you can't prove anything. So we've been having some success around here and even more and more people being equipped to bring the kingdom of God wherever they go.

Great. Well, we have to see if we can arrange something for New York apologetics out here in Carlisle on the campus of Dickinson College.

Dickinson College is right down the road from me, the many campuses of Dickinson College.

You may remember that when you were out here moderating the debate that Dr. Tomi Kosta had with Robert St.

Genes, the Roman Catholic apologist on the immaculate conception and sinlessness of Mary.

And quite a large campus they have. And there are Christians there that have ministries on campus.

So maybe we could work some kind of special event out sometime. It's a very liberal school, but there are a tiny remnant or there is a tiny remnant of evangelicals who are basically laboring on the mission field there.

I would love that opportunity. That'd be a terrific thing to collaborate on. And speaking of Tomi Kosta, Tomi Kosta is coming out to Long Island, New York, not only to speak at Hope Reformed Baptist Church of Long Island, but also at the

Word of Truth Church. And Pastor Rich Jensen and Tomi, Anthony, I should say, you are both actually involved in this three -day weekend of events, are you not?

In regard to the Gospel of the Reformation 500th anniversary, which starts at the

Word of Truth Church in Farmingville, Long Island on Friday, September 29th and ending on September 30th,

Saturday. And then Tomi Kosta is coming over to Hope Reformed Baptist Church for the

Sunday morning worship service, Sunday, October 1st at 11 a .m. But this is all a part of the

Gospel of the Reformation 500th anniversary celebration, is it not? Yes, that's correct.

And it's co -sponsored by the Word of Truth Church and the Long Island Spurgeon Fellowship, which is a group of pastors who are

Calvinistic in their soteriology and, you know, just really celebrating the importance of the

Reformation. And it's a perfect time to do that with 500 years. Amen.

Well, we are talking... Oh, but let me give some information, even though we're going to be repeating it.

If anybody would like to find out more about the Word of Truth Church, where the first two days of the

Gospel of the Reformation celebration are being held, the

Word of Truth Church website is wotchurch .com. W -O -T, standing for Word of Truth, church .com,

wotchurch .com. The phone number there is 631 -806 -0614, 631 -806 -0614.

And then on, as I said, on Sunday, October 1st at 11 a .m.,

Dr. Tony Costa of Toronto Baptist Seminary, who is the professor of apologetics and Islam there, he will be also speaking at Hope Reformed Baptist Church of Medford, Long Island, New York, and you can go to their website, hopereformedli .net,

hopereformedli, for Long Island, dot net, or call them at 631 -696 -5711, 631 -696 -5711 for more details on how to get to that location and so on.

But today we are talking about a controversial issue. We've been hearing a lot about building a wall during not only the presidential primaries, but even subsequent to President Trump winning the election for the presidency of the

United States. We've been hearing a lot about a wall being erected, although it's not happened yet.

But there are other walls of separation that are even vitally more important than that wall, and I'm talking about primarily walls that Christians should have erected between themselves and those who profess to be

Christians but have a false gospel, and even those who don't even profess to be

Christians at all, but they are members of world religions and cults, and therefore there has to be a wall of separation where not only those from the respective churches or religions are aware that there is a wall of separation dividing them, but also that the world at large knows that there is a wall of separation, and there are also walls that Christians erect when they fall into the error on the other end of the spectrum of ecumenism or modern day ecumenism, liberal ecumenism, when they fall into the opposite extreme of that, they can become cultic or isolationist, and they just bring their separation to such an extreme that they are cutting off fellowship with those who are truly brothers in Christ, brothers and sisters in Christ for whom

Christ died, and that would be an error as well, a serious error.

But as far as a wall of separation that is required, and by the way,

Anthony Uvino, please, since I can't see you, please chime in at any time that you think that there's an opening or a break in our conversation, you can chime in at any time because I can't see you, so I don't know when you have an interest in joining the conversation, so you don't have to wait for me to call upon you.

But Pastor Rich, there is an ecumenical movement that began with the liberals where Protestants said that the theological differences that they had with Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox were not serious enough, not important enough to have a wall of separation, and they welcomed full, unfettered fellowship with Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox and others because they believed that the things that they had in common were enough to unite them, and that has now left the exclusive backyard of liberalism, and over the past number of years, maybe even the last decade or so or more, more and more conservatives or professedly conservative

Protestants are linking arms with Roman Catholics and claiming and identifying that they are indeed our brothers in Christ because they are joining us, standing together with us with locked arms in opposition to abortion, in opposition to same -sex marriage, and a lot of other things that any person with a biblical worldview would find abhorrent.

Where does Hope Reformed Baptist Church, and where do you specifically stand on that issue of separation from Rome and Eastern Orthodox and all others who profess to be

Christian who do not share the gospel of the Reformation? Well, again,

I think it's a complex question, and we can see that just by how long it took to ask it.

I mean, there are different levels of, you know, of walls or fences, if you want to put it that way.

Even, I was listening to the opening of your show and the commentary from Matthew Henry on Proverbs 27, 17, you know, iron sharpens iron, and he took it as an admonition that we should be very careful who we even associate with, because it's going to have an effect on us.

And so, I mean, there are certainly people who would be considered evangelical

Christians, we know they're brothers in Christ, but yet it's not necessarily profitable or beneficial to try and engage in deep relationships with them, because there are just so many differences, you know.

But do we treat them as non -believers? Absolutely not. But where you have some...

I can't imagine a true evangelical

Christian, someone who has been regenerated by the Holy Spirit, who understands what

Christ did on the cross, and his resurrection, and his ascension into heaven, participating or giving credence to a mass.

I just, to me, that defies imagination, how you could possibly do that, if you really understand what the

Roman Catholic doctrine of the mass is. You know, so I think, clearly, there has to be a wall of separation.

Can we stand with them in front of an abortion clinic? Yes, but I'm going to tell you some very practically.

We have groups that go out and stand in front of abortion clinics from our church. We have groups that go out and evangelize on the street.

But when they're standing in front of the abortion clinics, typically there are Roman Catholic people there also. We're preaching the gospel as much to them as we are to the young ladies who are going into the abortion clinics.

Because if they're holding to all the doctrines of Rome, there's no assurance that they have any salvation whatsoever.

So, I mean, we can stand on the line together, and we're not going to shoo them away, but on the other hand, we can't say that we're in full agreement with what they're doing.

Right. I have heard from people who are evangelical

Protestants, who, if they happen to be at a Roman Catholic wedding where the mass is involved, or a funeral, or for some other reason, that they find themselves in a

Roman Catholic church. I have heard people say that they will take the Roman Catholic Eucharist, and they say, well,

I'm just thinking about something else in my mind when I'm taking it. I'm not thinking of it the way

Rome views the mass and the Eucharist.

I'm thinking of it in more of a Protestant way in my mind, but I just partake of it nonetheless, even though they have a different opinion.

Now, isn't this really outside the bounds of proper Christian behavior?

First of all, the Roman Catholic Church doesn't even want you to partake in their mass if you deny transubstantiation, that those elements are actually and truly the body and blood of Christ, and it's ironic that they only give the laity the body, and only give them the bread or the wafer, but this is not proper behavior, is it,

Pastor Rich? Oh, I can't imagine, you know, that anybody, no,

I can't imagine somebody doing that. I think... I do know people that do that. I do know people that do that.

Yeah, I think it certainly shows, at the very least, a naivete towards what they're really doing, but I think it's gross error.

I mean, how can you possibly participate in something where they're saying that they're crucifying Christ again, you know?

He's being sacrificed again. I can't imagine how a

Christian can sit there and then say, well, yeah, I'm thinking about something else, you know? And they actually, because of the fact that they believe that is truly

Christ, that is the actual body and blood of Christ, they worship those elements.

Those elements are actually idols, because they actually worship them. Absolutely.

And just to... Go ahead, I'm sorry. No, go ahead.

Anthony Uvino, I'll call upon you now, because of the fact that you are, just like I am, a former

Roman Catholic. You were raised Roman Catholic, and at some point in your life, the

Lord, in His sovereignty, saved you and drew you out of that church.

What do you say to your Catholic family, and friends, and relatives, and loved ones, and when you say to them,

I can't partake in this ceremony? In fact, I've had friends here in Carlisle, Pennsylvania, who have very recently had to risk offending their family, and I think that there was some offense taken, because one of the nieces was not only baptized, but when niece and nephew were baptized into the

Catholic Church, but you also had an older niece having the confirmation, the sacrament of confirmation, and this friend of mine, who actually led me to Christ 30 years ago, said that she could not participate in these celebrations.

Do you face similar things, Anthony, and how do you approach them? Yeah, I do face similar things.

I don't want to say, fortunately, my family isn't steeped in Catholicism, but it's fortunate for me, because they don't do too much stuff at the

Catholic Church. Aside from distant cousins at this point who are taking Communion and Confirmation, which

I really don't, you know, participate in, because of distance, it makes it easier for me.

But in the event we do get together for some kind of marriage, and they have a priest who's performing the service, it just becomes an opportunity for me to proclaim the

Gospel, and to proclaim that God saved me, and I wasn't a part of that process in the sense that I added my merit to the finished work of Jesus on the

Cross. In fact, last night, I've been doing a study at my house on Monday night on the

Reformation. I did the timeline of the Reformation, and now I'm into the Five Solas, and last night we did

Sola Fide, and what I explained was that the Reformers saw this as a

Gospel issue. When the Roman Catholic Church departed from faith alone, according to the

Reformers, they ceased to be a Church. Because once you start adding human work and merit into the equation of salvation, now you're trying to add to what

God has done for us on our behalf. And once you add any human element to it, it becomes a religion of works, just like every other supposed false religion in the world.

There's really two religions in the world. One is human accomplishment, and the other one is divine achievement, which is

Christianity. Christianity is not spelled D -O, Christianity is spelled D -O -N -E.

We trust in the finished work of Christ on our behalf, apart from anything that we have done or could do in the way of good works.

So in explaining Sola Fide to the people who came to the study last night, it was a real eye -opening experience to recognize that it's by faith alone.

And what I see as one of the most important things that the New Testament points to is the cross of Christ.

And right at the story of the cross of Christ, you have two thieves, one on each side of Jesus.

One is an unrepentant sinner, you know, asking Jesus, hey, get me down off of here, and the other one is looking at Jesus and says, you know,

I deserve to be here, you know, will you remember me when you come into your kingdom? So in his recognition of him deserving to be there, he's repenting, and looking at Jesus and saying, will you remember me when you come into your kingdom?

He's acknowledging Jesus as King and Lord, and Jesus looks at him and says, today you will be with me in paradise.

So it's by faith in Christ and repentance of your sins that you now will get the gift of eternal life.

He was nailed to a cross. There was no works he could possibly do to merit him getting into heaven.

And by Jesus saying, today you will be with me in paradise, that eliminates purgatory. There's no long period of time that you have to go through for the purging of your sins if Jesus says, today you'll be with me.

So for me, anytime I'm with my Catholic relatives, they're nominal Catholics, I would say, it's just an opportunity for me to proclaim the gospel, which

I just try to do regardless of the situation and regardless of the people, whether it's a

Thanksgiving holiday or a holy day, I'm trying to proclaim the gospel and get that through to my relatives.

Yeah, well, I have found it interesting in my own experience, not with my family, but with the families of close friends, that even nominal

Catholics can tend to be quite hostile and outraged if someone converts to biblical

Christianity, just because of the fact that that is somehow connected to a family tradition, because of the fact that you're calling into question the salvation of all of the ancestors of that family.

In fact, I even know a Jewish brother in Christ who, when he was a nominal

Jew, along with his family, who were not kosher, they just celebrated the

Passover and some other Jewish festivals and they had bar mitzvahs and things like that, but they weren't really

Orthodox Jews and they weren't committed to Judaism in any way, in a serious way.

And yet, when this brother that I know, who was a male stripper, when he came to Christ and abandoned all that, his mother sat shiva for him and wrote him off as dead, and so did his father.

And when he attended a funeral with his Christian wife, gentile

Christian wife, of a family member who had passed away, the mother physically attacked his wife and had to be bodily removed from her.

So this is quite an interesting phenomenon, where you have people who aren't really even truly actively involved in the religion that they claim is their own, and yet they have this hostility to the new birth and to Christianity that is a genuine

Christianity from the scriptures. Pastor Rich Jensen, isn't it true that the world, although they may say they have a love for Jesus or they have an appreciation for him, as even

Jewish people in the 21st century will tell you, that they have an appreciation for Jesus, that he was a good man, and so on.

But when you push the envelope of genuine Christianity, biblical

Christianity, it evokes great hostility very often, does it not, Pastor Rich? Yeah, absolutely.

You know, people build an idea of who Jesus was in their own mind.

And when you reveal the Jesus of the Bible, you know, they don't want to hear that.

All everybody wants to know is, oh yeah, Jesus is this nice, loving teacher who taught everybody to sit around a campfire and sing kumbaya, and we're all going to just get along together.

But when you find out that what he said, number one, he was the one who spoke more about hell than any other biblical writer, all right?

Number two, he is the one who is going to come and judge the world. He is the one who's going to say at the last day that, you know, depart from me,

I never knew you, all right? And when you start painting what the full picture of Jesus is, not only is he loving, but he's going to be avenging

God and God's wrath in hell. That's when they react negatively to it, because everybody just wants this nice picture.

Unfortunately, that's not just the world, Chris. You find that same thing within the evangelical church, supposed evangelical church today.

You start talking about Jesus coming as judge, and they don't want to hear it. You're absolutely right.

Yes, the answer to your question is yes, that's exactly what you find. When they find out who

Jesus really is, he is God, he is holy, and he can't stand sin.

We're going to a break right now. If anybody would like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

chrisarnson at gmail .com. Please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside of the

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And we welcome questions and comments from people who agree with us, who vehemently oppose what we're saying, or those who are just not certain.

So we look forward to hearing from you and your questions for Pastor Rich Jensen when we return from this break, so please don't go away.

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Welcome back. This is Chris Arns. And if you just tuned us in, our guest today for the full two hours with 90 minutes to go is

Pastor Rich Jensen of Hope Reform Baptist Church of Medford, Long Island, New York. And we are speaking on walls of separation, where they are required, and where they must be torn down.

We have two co -hosts today. We have Anthony Eugenio of NewYorkApologetics .com,

and also in studio is the Rev. Buzz Taylor. If you'd like to join us on the air with a question, our email address is

ChrisArnson at gmail .com. ChrisArnson at gmail .com. And we have the Rev.

Buzz Taylor who has a question. Yes, when we bring up the subject of walls of separation,

I can't help but interpret that in light of my own past, which now, you know,

Chris mentioned that you were old friends, but not in age. So I'm not sure how old you are. But I attended

Bob Jones University in the 70s. And it seemed to me that the cardinal doctrine back then was separation.

And it was largely between brothers in Christ. And then they had a doctrine that was referred to as second degree separation.

Like if you, you not only separated from new evangelicals, but you had to separate from those who associated with new evangelicals.

And I remember one of my biggest fears of going into the ministry was that I was going to violate some, you know, cardinal doctrine of separation.

Could you address that? Pastor Rich? Yeah, and yes,

I'd be happy to. And I am familiar with that. Because when I was a kid, I was a camp counselor down at Pinebrook, a

Pinebrook Bible conference when Percy Crawford was still there. So I think I'm a little bit older than you are. But and the reason

I bring it up is because a lot of the counselors came from Bob Jones University. So I'm very familiar with, you know, going back again, that was in the late 50s and early 60s, when

I when I knew these guys. Yeah. And I think that's one of the that's one of the dangers.

Look, there's no question that your doctrine affects your practice.

And how that works out, it might be difficult to work with with other evangelical

Christians. For example, you know, I would find it very difficult to evangelize with somebody who is a full

Arminian, because we're going to approach how what we're going to say and everything else, it would be very difficult.

Doesn't mean I'm not doesn't mean I'm going to shun the guy doesn't mean I'm going to push him away. It's just that there's certain things that that we can't really do together.

You're talking about if you were like side by side with that Arminian and evangelizing the same people, that's what you're referring to, correct?

Yeah, I mean, it would be very difficult, because we're going to say some things that are very, very different, you know, based on our doctrine, doctrine matters.

And by the way, all doctrine is practical doctrine affects how you think what you do. And how what you know, the way you're going to approach certain things.

Just to give you an example, there's a minister's fellowship here out in Suffolk County, which it's very broad based evangelical, okay.

And when many years ago, I used to attend the meetings and all and I stopped going, not because I don't love the guys, not because I you know, and in fact,

I'm still in touch with many of them. They're good, most of them are good Christian men. But because I am coming from a

Reformed perspective, in my theology and in ministry and in worship and all, it's just very difficult to have dialogue and be constructive in it.

And so I opted, you know, I'm no longer attending those meetings. I'm not shunning them, but it's just more difficult to work.

And I think that's perfectly acceptable. But to actually erect a wall, and I know

Bob Jones did this, I mean, if you didn't fit certain criteria, they would have nothing to do with you.

And I think that's patently non -biblical. Jesus himself said, look, if they're not against us, they're with us. So I mean, how can you, in fact,

I think it's Romans 14, where Paul makes the comment that, about causing a brother to stumble, someone for whom

Christ died. You know, if we understand that the person is truly saved, Christ has died for that person.

You can't treat them, you know, in a harsh manner and in an unloving manner. You have to love that person.

But that doesn't mean that you have to be able to do everything with them. And I think that's where this whole idea of walls is different degrees of walls.

You can't just say it's not one blanket policy. Yeah, go ahead.

I'll continue. I think that's what, you know, we see in Scripture.

Look, God's law was given, and of course, coming from a Reform perspective, I believe that God's law is still binding on us today, of course.

But he's also given us the book of Proverbs to explain to us how do you apply that law in certain circumstances.

And we need to understand, you know, how I deal with my Christian brother is going to be different than how

I deal with a Buddhist or a Hindu or, you know, even just a liberal theologian.

And I have to take the Scripture and apply that to how I'm going to have a relationship with all of these people.

Because my ultimate goal is, one, I want to have Christian fellowship with a true believer. And the others, I don't want them to hate me,

I want to win them to Christ. So I think that we have to apply them. That's the whole purpose of the book of Proverbs.

It was wisdom on how to how to apply God's law to every circumstance of life.

And Reverend Buzz Taylor. Yeah, I just wanted to mention also, in addition, that the reason I mentioned that I attended back in the 70s is because I haven't had that association in now many decades.

And I'm not sure if they still take the same stance on that or not. Just, you know, as I do know, is that the current president of Bob Jones University just preached recently, back in August, I think it was,

I'm sorry, April, I think, I can't remember. It was just it was not that long ago, I attended the Sermon Audio Conference in Manhattan, which is called the

Foundations Conference. And Dr. Pettit, I think it's

Steve Pettit, the current president of Bob Jones University, he preached there along with Reformed men.

And I can tell you that if you do not know anything about the background of Bob Jones University, you would swear you were hearing a

Calvinist preach, because he was actually clearly identifying as his own view, the

Reformed Ordo Salutis, the order of salvation, although he did not call it that, it was clear that he was, he was giving that, you know, along with that, too, though.

We're talking here about, you know, separating over doctrine and things. And I think we need to be careful to point that out.

Because there are still, I'm sure, a number of people on the landscape today, who like, for example, years ago, one particular preacher was accused of having modernists and compromisers on the platform with him.

And it turned out that the modernist and compromiser was so because he was wearing wire rim glasses.

Yeah, and back when you were going to Bob Jones University buzz, there was even only a certain group of churches that the students were allowed to attend for worship.

Am I right? And that the only Calvinist churches that were given the green light by Bob Jones at that time were the

Free Presbyterian Church congregation. Well, I'm not exactly certain about that, because I was a fundamentalist and a

Baptist and everything at that time. And I didn't know about the other groups either. So okay, my friend, in fact, a mutual friend of myself and Rich Jensen, Joe Bianchi, his daughter went there.

And I believe that that rule was still in force. I was there with Ian Paisley's daughter. Yeah, it's an odd thing that they had a great admiration and respect for the

Free Presbyterian Church of North America congregations, which is thoroughly Calvinistic.

But because of the fact that they took a very strong stand against Catholicism, that seemed to win them over to want to have fellowship with them.

But Pastor Rich, people divide over every little thing they can find nowadays, whether you use the

King James version of the Bible, wire rim glasses. Well, I don't think that one still exists, the wire rim glasses.

Well, I hope not. But that was back in the days when I guess that meant you were a hippie or something.

I don't know. Right. But your point is that many churches, perhaps they are still a minority today, because the biggest problem today is the modern ecumenical movement making inroads or already having made inroads into evangelicalism.

But there are still people that do divide over things that are unbiblical reasons for division.

Am I right, Pastor Rich? Yes. And again, that's most unfortunate.

I mean, look, even again here on Long Island, we've formed this Long Island Spurgeon Fellowship, and the main criteria is that you're

Calvinistic and you're soteriology, because it would be hard to fellowship and do the things that we, and the reason for the fellowship is to promote the doctrines of grace.

I mean, so it would be very difficult for somebody to belong to our fellowship who does not hold to the doctrines of grace.

But we have a wide variety of, you know, styles of churches and even styles of worship and whatnot.

And that's fine. We don't have to necessarily do those things together to have fellowship and to work side by side for the kingdom of God.

And we did that very intentionally. You don't have to, like our church is, to be a member of our church, you have to adhere to the 1689.

That's just part of who we are. But we associate with churches who are not, you know, who do not hold to the 1689.

And I think we have to have the freedom to do that. And I think we actually were told by Scripture that we need to do that.

Well, let me ask you a question about that. When I became a member of what was then the

Calvary Baptist Church of Amityville, Long Island, and which later became Grace Reformed Baptist Church of Long Island and Merrick.

When I first became a member, not long after I was baptized, they said to me that I did not need to agree with everything in the 1689

London Baptist Confession, especially since I was a new believer. But I did have to submit to the fact that that was the teaching of the elders, and I could not attempt to undermine it amongst the congregation.

Would that be a similar stance that you take? Because when you are insisting that somebody agrees with a confession, that can require sometimes years of growth and understanding.

Well, yeah, of course. I mean, look, there's still issues between churches as to what the 1689, what does it mean?

And I'm not going to mention it because I don't want to bring it up again. But everybody knows what

I'm talking about. At least Reformed Baptists do. In fact, we tell the people who...well,

let me put it this way. Let me just give you how we do it. When somebody comes and says they want to be a member of HOPE, we have a new members and baptism class, we call it, for those who have already been baptized, for those who are just now professing faith.

And it's about a three -month class, and we take them right through the 1689. We tell them...you

know, we do that so that they know what they're getting into. All right? Because especially if they're coming from another

Baptist church or something, the doctrine is going to be somewhat different. And if they're coming from any other church as well, we want them to know.

Again, and it's pretty much exactly what you said. They cannot undermine you. If they disagree with something, they have to tell me about it, and we can talk those things through and see whether or not this is the church for them or not.

But yes, I don't expect everybody to understand it. I mean, it's a brilliant document.

And the theology in it is so rich that, I mean, you can teach seminary courses just on the 1689.

So yes, it would be very similar to what you talked about. All right, we have a question from Ted in Tuscaloosa, Alabama.

He says, in the last few years, I've heard of an increasing number of evangelical believers, including some pastors who have taken up Roman Catholic devotions, such as the

Liturgy of the Hours. When I ask them how they reconcile this practice with the inevitable bad theology, such as prayers for the dead and Marian devotion, they typically respond, oh,

I just skip over those parts. I am curious to hear your guest's take on this.

Yeah, I've heard about similar things. I was just at a

Bible conference not long ago in Indianapolis, the Gospel Coalition Conference, and Tim Keller, who is one of the founders of the

Gospel Coalition, during one of his messages was discussing how he meditates on Catholic authors, and he was speaking about one particular

Catholic author that's one of his favorites. Isn't this treading on dangerous ground here?

Yes, I think so. You know how I usually handle something like that? I tell them, let me put it to you this way. Suppose you come over to my house for dinner, and I have two bowls of stew, and I tell you, here, this bowl of stew here, this is all good.

This one here's got a couple of pieces of bad meat in it. When you get to them, just pick it out. Which bowl are you going to choose?

Yes, and I've had that experience at your house. Actually, I think it involved broken glass, but anyway.

And I think that there should be a clarification, because many of the church fathers who would predate

Roman Catholicism, no matter what Roman Catholic apologists will say, they will, of course, say that the church fathers were all

Roman Catholic, and were all in one accord, in agreement over Roman Catholic dogma, which is absolutely ridiculous and cannot be proven historically.

But there are Catholics with a small C from the past, that there would be no problem with us meditating upon them, reading them, and learning from them.

Augustine is a primary example, but isn't that true, that we shouldn't just shun everything just because the word

Catholic is attached to it? No, but that's a different question. What Buzz had mentioned was reading these things devotionally.

No, that was a listener. There's a difference between that and going back and studying and learning, seeing how theology has developed over the ages.

Those type of things are very helpful, and even reading the secular philosophers.

But that's different than using it for meditation and age to worship and prayer.

I think that those are two different circumstances. Yes, because you happen to be a big supporter of classical

Christian education, which would involve students understanding what non -Christians believe in order to have intelligent discourse and discussion and dialogue with them.

I'm glad you brought that up, because Anthony and I are part of a group of men who are seeking to start a classical

Christian school here in Suffolk County. And so, in fact, if any of your listeners live out this way and would like to be part, have them get in touch with us, because that's what we'd like to find.

Now, how is that for a bald -faced plug? And that was not planned. But yeah, well, we will definitely repeat your contact information.

We have to go to a break right now. If anybody else would like to join us, and we do have a couple of people still waiting to have their questions asked and answered, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

If you have a question, chrisarnsen at gmail .com, c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside of the USA. And please only remain anonymous if you're asking about a personal and private matter.

But don't go away. God willing, we will be right back right after these messages from our sponsors.

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Welcome back. This is Chris Zarnes, and if you just tuned us in, our guest today for the full two hours with a little less than an hour to go is

Rich Jensen, pastor of Hope Reform Baptist Church of Medford, Long Island, New York. We have two co -hosts today.

We have Anthony Uvino of newyorkapologetics .com, and also the Reverend Buzz Taylor.

And we are addressing the theme, Walls of Separation, where they are required and where they must be torn down.

If you'd like to join us on the air with a question, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com. chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

In fact, you just heard the ad for the New American Standard Bible. We have a winner today, at least our first winner today of a

New American Standard Bible, because he is a first -time questioner. And we're going to be asking his question after I announce some very special and important events that are taking place.

The first of which you heard me talking about earlier, the Word of Truth Church and the

Long Island Spurgeon Fellowship present the Gospel of the Reformation 500th Anniversary Celebration, featuring guest speaker

Dr. Tony Costa, who is the professor of apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary.

Joining him will be Pastor Caleb Bunch, Pastor Bruce Bennett, and Pastor Dave Corson. This is at the

Word of Truth Church in Farmingville, Long Island on Friday, September 29th and Saturday, September 30th.

If you'd like more details, go to wotchurch .com. That's W -O -T, which stands for Word of Truth Church dot com, wotchurch .com,

or you can call 631 -806 -0614. 631 -806 -0614.

The very next day, the first Sunday of October, Sunday, October 1st at 11 a .m.,

Dr. Tony Costa, who I just mentioned, will be also speaking at Hope Reformed Baptist Church of Medford, Long Island, New York, the church where my guest

Rich Jensen serves as pastor. And if you'd like to find out more information on directions and so on and how to get to Hope Reformed Baptist Church of Medford, Long Island, New York, you can go to hopereformedli .net,

hopereformedli .net, and the LI stands for Long Island, hopereformedli .net, or you could call 631 -696 -5711.

631 -696 -5711. Then, coming up in November from the 17th through the 18th, the

Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals is having their Quakertown Conference on Reform Theology at the

Grace Bible Fellowship Church in Quakertown, Pennsylvania. I plan to be there with an

Iron Sharpens Iron exhibitor's booth, so I hope you join me there as well. And I am going to try to get out to the

Word of Truth Church and the Hope Reformed Baptist Church of Long Island as well with an exhibitor's booth.

But the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals Conference is titled, For Still Our Ancient Foe, obviously a line from Martin Luther's classic hymn

Mighty Fortress, referring to Satan, and speakers include Kent Hughes, Peter Jones, Tom Nettles, Dennis Cahill, and Scott Oliphant.

If you'd like to register for that conference from November 17th through the 18th, go to alliancenet .org,

alliancenet .org, click on Events, and then click on Quakertown Conference on Reform Theology.

And then, coming up in January, another event where I will be present, God willing, with the

Iron Sharpens Iron exhibitor's booth is the G3 Conference in Atlanta, Georgia.

The G3 standing for Grace, Gospel, and Glory, and that will be held from the 17th through the 20th of January.

The 17th will be an exclusively Spanish -speaking edition of the conference, and the 18th through the 20th will be exclusively done in English, and the theme is

Knowing God, a Biblical Understanding of Discipleship. The speakers at the G3 Conference this time around include

Stephen Lawson, Vody Balcom, Phil Johnson, Keith Getty, H .B. Charles Jr., Tim Challies, Josh Bice, James White, Tom Askell, Anthony Mathenia, Michael Kruger, David Miller, Paul Tripp, Todd Friel, Derek Thomas, and Martha Peace.

If you would like to register for the G3 Conference, go to g3conference .com, g3conference .com.

If you contact any of these organizations or churches or ministries to either register for their events or just to find out more information about them, please always remember to tell them that you heard about those events from Chris Arnsen from Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

Now it's the most difficult time of the program that I have to undertake.

That is the time of the program, the portion of the program where I have to beg you for money.

Because of the fact that I have advertisers who are spending hard -earned money to keep

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio on the air, I want to respect their wishes and their urgings for me to make daily public appeals for donations and new advertisers in order to keep

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio on the air. Those of you who are my program for years, going back to 2005 -2006 when

I was broadcasting out of New York, you know that I went for years without making one single appeal for a donation.

But times are rather desperate these days and the funding is urgently needed in order to keep

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio on the air. In fact, we are behind in some of our major bills to keep this program afloat including live streaming charges and rent and so on.

So we really are hoping that you will prayerfully consider donating to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

If you love this program, if it's a part of your daily habit of life, if you are edified by it, if you really don't want it to disappear from the airwaves, then please consider donating to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio by going to ironsharpensironradio .com,

ironsharpensironradio .com, click on support and then click on, well then you'll be given an address.

When you click on support you'll be given an address where you can mail a check made out to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio for any amount.

And my caveat to that is always never ever ever siphon money out of your regular giving to your local church where you are a member.

And if you're not a member of a local church you need to rectify that very quickly in order to be obedient to God and his word.

I don't want ever people to give less to their church than they normally give because they're giving to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio and nor do

I want people taking food off of their family's dinner table if they're struggling to make ends meet. But if you have been blessed above and beyond your ability to obey those two commands providing for church and home please consider helping out

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. And if you'd like to advertise with us send me an email to chrisarnsen at gmail .com

chrisarnsen at gmail .com whether you're a pastor, leader in a parachurch, a business owner, corporate executive, a professional person such as a doctor, a lawyer, a dentist, a chiropractor, or you have some kind of special event that you want to advertise.

As long as what you're promoting is compatible with the theology expressed on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio I would love to work with you on an advertising campaign.

You don't have to be identical in your theology to me but it just can't be in opposition to my theology or have major conflict with it.

So I look forward to hearing from you. Just send me an email at chrisarnsen at gmail .com chrisarnsen at gmail .com

and put advertising in the subject line. And I hope to hear from many of you soon because as I said we are facing extremely difficult times.

But now we're back to our discussion on walls of separation, where they are required, and where they must be torn down with my guest

Pastor Rich Jensen of Hope Reformed Baptist Church of Medford, Long Island, New York, my co -host Anthony Uvinio of newyorkapologetics .com,

and also my co -host in the studio Reverend Buzz Taylor. And that same email address applies if you have a question for them at chrisarnsen at gmail .com

chrisarnsen at gmail .com. I have a question and this is from a first -time questioner who is winning a

New American Standard Bible because of that. But this is a first time I don't think this has ever happened.

Grace Life Radio in Lake City, Florida airs a pre -recorded version of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio every day in morning drive 8 to 10 a .m.

and in the evening 8 to 10 p .m. every day. And I'm thinking they must have added a third airing of the pre -recorded show from the day before during the 4 to 6 p .m.

eastern time slot because I just got a question from a listener in Lake City, Florida who is responding to yesterday's show.

This is a first time. So when he listens to this program tomorrow he will be hearing his question answered during a totally different topic.

This is somewhat off topic because he's listening to yesterday's show, the pre -recorded version, but I will ask it anyway.

His name is Ken and he's in Lake City, Florida. He says, Greetings sir.

I enjoy listening to your program but I must admit that we all tend to really complicate issues of salvation that we obviously do not fully understand, myself included.

As I listened today I heard spiritual speculation regarding what point in life salvation actually takes place.

For instance, salvation at age 7 versus salvation after understanding and repentance.

When it comes down to it, even after the work of Christ and true repentance, we will continue to experience subsequent failures as we learn to yield to the working of the

Holy Spirit. Our works have no value before, during, or after salvation.

Christ chooses us. He does the work in our hearts. He gives us the very desire for him.

He initiates the work and he brings it to completion. It is all about him for his glory.

So this is more of a comment than a question. I agree with a lot of what he's saying, but I do not agree that our works are of no importance.

They're just not salvific or meritorious. What do you folks have to say? Pastor Rich? Yeah, of course.

I mean, typical Reformed understanding, you know, from what the Scripture teaches is that salvation is definitive at some point, it's progressive, and it's complete at the end of the age.

So even to just say the word salvation, you have to clarify that a little bit. You know,

I mean, most people when they say, when were you saved, they're talking about when were you justified, or when were you regenerated, all right?

But our salvation continues and is progressive, and if that progressive sanctification isn't there, you have no reason to believe that you were in fact saved, because the saved person, according to the

Scriptures, must bear fruit. So to say that it's of no importance, no, you can't say that.

It's extremely important. And then, of course, our salvation will be complete, you know, when

Christ returns, and we will be like him, and sin will be no more. So I don't think that's complicated.

I think it's rather simple, and it really explains the role, the proper role, of works.

Works have a role that just, as you said, it's just not salvific. Yes, and I don't know if I'm misunderstanding his statements, but he was saying,

I heard spiritual speculation regarding what point in life salvation actually takes place, for instance salvation at age seven versus salvation after understanding and repentance.

Now, we as Reformed Baptists do not baptize infants, and of course there is an exception on the show today.

The Reverend Buzz Taylor is a Presbyterian. He's my co -host, and he doesn't baptize infants. Well, he did when he was a pastor,

I guess. But we believe that someone is baptized at a point when there is a credible profession of faith and evidence of repentance.

We don't just tell a child that he or she should be safe in their salvation, just because they may sing

Jesus loves me, this I know, for the Bible tells me so. This listener seems to be, and I may be wrong, he seems to be removing that element of repentance and faith from the knowledge that one can have that he or she is saved.

Assurance of salvation. Doesn't somebody need to demonstrate faith and repentance in order to have assurance?

Yeah, I mean, assurance, one can be saved without being assured, and in fact, you know, a new believer quite often has doubts about their salvation.

I mean, when you come to really see yourself as a sinner, which is the only way that anyone is saved, when you really see yourself and the

Holy Spirit opens your heart, you know, opens your spiritual eyes, and you see yourself as the vile sinner that you really are, it's normal to doubt that you're saved, because why would

God save somebody like me? Okay? But assurance is a product of sanctification and maturity in Christ.

We should all attain to an assurance, the Scripture tells us. And so, while it's desirable, it's not always there, and we'll take time to get to that full assurance.

But I think that, I'm not sure, because when he talks about he heard spiritual speculation,

I didn't hear the show yesterday, so I really don't know what he means by that. Well, we were talking about the fact that there is a difference between someone who may have been living in the world in really scandalous living, really overtly wicked behavior, or perhaps even just total deadness and indifference to God and Christ, who then comes to Christ, and there's something more remarkable about their conversion experience.

I'm not saying it's any more precious or miraculous, I'm just saying that it's more of an out -of -the -ordinary experience, where you see somebody who's overtly wicked falling to their knees and crying out to Christ for forgiveness and mercy and becoming a

Christian, than it is for a person who is raised from infancy in a

Christian home, who can never really pinpoint exactly in their lives when they were born again, because as far as their memory is concerned, they have always loved the

Lord, going back to as far as their brain was mature enough to even understand what that means.

So you have some people on one hand who say, I have no idea when I was saved, I was raised as a Christian, so I've always loved the

Lord to my knowledge, even though I know I'm a sinner and need a Savior, but there was no moment, this crisis moment, that I can recall where I realized

I'm going to hell and I need a Savior, where most of us perhaps have the other experience where we said to ourselves, wow, we are going to hell and we definitely need salvation.

A lot of that conversation was also stemming from fundamentalists who will tell you that you are not saved unless you can remember the exact date of your salvation.

Now, there's nothing in the Bible that says that, right? Yeah, right. I understand.

So, well, thank you, Ken, in Lake City, Florida. You're listening to this a day late, but if you give me your full mailing address in Lake City, Florida, we will be sending you a new

New American Standard Bible, compliments of the publishers of the NASB, and also compliments of Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, cvbbs .com,

cv for Cumberland Valley, bbs for BibleBookService .com, and we thank Todd and Patty Jennings for being faithful supporters of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio and shipping out all of our winners in the

Iron Sharpens Iron audience their free Bibles, books, and other items that they win when they submit questions to us.

We have Jeff in Clinton Township, Michigan. He says,

Greetings. Regarding doctrinal differences among churches, I often heard Hank Hanegraaff say that we can vigorously debate the issues, but we need not divide over them.

Hank is now a member of the Greek Orthodox Church. I've seen John MacArthur, a credo

Baptist, on the same platform as R .C. Sproul, a pedo Baptist. I've heard

Phil Johnson, an evangelical, and Chris Roseborough, a confessional Lutheran, together warn us of Tim Keller, a

Presbyterian, and Rick Warren, a Southern Baptist. My question is, how was it decided which doctrines of our faith would be secondary issues not worth dividing over?

That's a very excellent question. In fact, he lists some, credo Baptism versus pedo

Baptism, a literal six -day creation versus evolution, different end times, frameworks, etc.

Well, I mean, there are certain things that are biblical, I mean, that you just have to draw the line on.

Anybody, of course, I mean, one of the most obvious, anybody who denies that Christ came into flesh, that person,

I mean, John says, that person is anti -Christ, all right? So, I mean, some of those are easy.

But then, again, this is where you have to be very careful, because some of these issues are very important.

For example, take Baptism. I mean, I'm a credo

Baptist, being a Reformed Baptist. I have so many good friends who are

Presbyterians, Orthodox Presbyterians and others, and we disagree vehemently over those things.

But it is not enough to divide us, because we understand the

Gospel and what the Gospel is, and I think that's really the key, is, you know, when you move outside the bounds of where the heresy, you know, let's face it, every doctrine is a heresy, where the heresy is so serious that it jeopardizes your salvation.

I think that's where you can draw the hard and fast lines. Some of the other lines are not that easy to draw, and those are the things that are debated, you know, constantly.

Yeah, it's interesting that the... There needs to be room for debate. It's interesting that the major confessions, the

Westminster Confession of Faith, the London Baptist Confession of Faith, the Savoy Declaration, the

Three Forms of Unity, the Thirty -Nine Articles, that none of them specify a required eschatology, other than that Christ is truly, physically, invisibly returning, and that the dead will be raised, and so on.

Outside of that, there seems to be, even amongst our Reformed forefathers, some, without people misunderstanding what

I'm saying, some liberalism when it comes to the welcoming of people with different understandings of eschatology and some things like that.

Your comments? That's very true. In fact, even in our Church, we have representatives from the three major views, you know,

Historic Premillennialism, Amillennialism, and Postmortem. And it's not an issue in the Church.

I mean, we have some great discussions, but it's not an issue. Now, obviously, you couldn't be a

Dispensational Premillennialist and attend Hope, or join Hope, let me put it that way, because that would fly in the face of our

Confession of Faith, the Covenant, because we hold the Covenant theology. And this also reminds me of different levels of separation, because of the fact that you were just mentioning how we, who are

Reformed Baptists, have and enjoy great, deep, close fellowship with conservative

Presbyterians and conservative Dutch Reformed folk and others. And we even have conservative

Presbyterians preach in our pulpits, and they likewise very often have

Reformed Baptists preach in their pulpits. We read each other's books, and so on.

But most Reformed Baptists, as much as they may love

Sinclair Ferguson and really would love to have him preach for them as often as he was available, they would not permit him into membership, because of the difference on baptism, nor would most

Presbyterians permit into at least an office -bearing membership a

Reformed Baptist who rejected paedo -baptism. So there are different levels of fellowship and separation, and we could even go beyond that into the signed gifts.

You might have a Reformed scholar preach in your pulpit who was not a cessationist, but I doubt many

Reformed Baptist churches would welcome them into leadership in the church. Am I right on this? Yes, I think you hit the nail right on the head.

Well, thank you, Jeff, in Clinton Township, Michigan. I keep listening to Iron Sharpens Iron and keep spreading the word about it in Michigan and beyond.

Now, one of the things I think that we should bring up, because it's constantly hurled at us, those of us who have a concept and an adherence to any kind of separation and opposition to Roman Eastern Orthodoxy as having false

Gospels, they will say, many people, not only those who are Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox, but even those who are evangelicals, who are participants in the modern ecumenical movement, they will say that this is hateful, it's coming from bigotry, it's coming from arrogance and pride, but isn't it loving not to deceive people who have a very serious and damning doctrine that they have adopted?

Isn't it not loving to make them aware of that? Or should I say, isn't it not loving to not make them aware of that, is what

I meant to say? Isn't it the truly loving thing to warn them about their false teachings?

That's probably a better way of putting it. It's more that we have an obligation to do so, and you're absolutely right.

Uh, you know, one of the things that is hurled against us all the time, you know, especially being

Reformed, you know, our emphasis on the law of God, you know, still being binding on us and, you know, etc.

Having the Ten Commandments hanging from our sanctuary in the church, you know, a lot of churches won't do that.

But what's the essence of the law? Jesus said it, you know, very clearly. What's the heart of the law?

Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength, and love your neighbor as yourself. That's the whole purpose of the law.

As soon as people start moving away from the pure teaching of the Word of God and moving into error, if you really love them, you have to warn them.

Now, how you do that can be different. Um, I, in fact, you know what I tell my congregation?

I said, listen, if you're living a consistent Christian life and you've never been called a legalist, you're probably not living, you're not living a consistent

Christian life. If you, you know. On the other hand, don't ever be a legalist, because that's not living a consistent

Christian life. You know, you have to be very careful. As soon as you start standing for truth, people are going to get offended, because people do not like moral absolutes.

And that's true even in the church. You know, they won't say that, but that's exactly the thing.

As soon as you start saying, no, thus sayeth the Lord, people don't want to hear it. But that's exactly what they need to hear.

And I would, I would, I'm sorry Chris, I would just like to piggyback on that for a second, because, you know, a lot of times it, you know, we're told as Protestants that we are divisive.

And, you know, last I looked, it was the Council of Trent that pronounced over 100 and something anathemas on us as Protestants.

They've clearly drawn a line in the sand and said that if we don't hold to the doctrines that they profess, we're eternally cursed.

Yes. At the same time, yet at the same time, this is what boggles my mind. If you're a

Muslim, a sincere Muslim, you have possible entrance into heaven.

If you're a Jew, a sincere Jew, you have possible entrance into heaven. If you're an atheist, a sincere atheist who lacks knowledge of God, you can get to heaven.

Everyone can get to heaven except for the people who actually place their faith and trust in Jesus Christ alone for their salvation.

It just boggles my mind how they can hold to something like that. So, when somebody tells me, oh, your doctrines divide,

I say, yes, my doctrines divide, truth from error. I agree with you. Yeah, well, that's where the

Catholic Church in the 21st century, and really beginning in the middle of the 20th century, began speaking out of both sides of their mouths after the existence of Vatican II, where you have people on the one hand saying that the

Council of Trent is still binding dogma. In fact, dogma is always binding in the

Roman Catholic religion. You cannot have a dogma that disappears. Dogmas are things that are forever binding on the faithful Catholic until Christ returns.

The other teachings that they have, like in their catechism, where they are welcoming people from non -Christian religions into fellowship with them, and where it is stated that they have an opportunity to go to as Jews and Muslims and Buddhists and others, those are not dogmas.

So, the Catholic Church is really deceiving people. I'm not saying that they're all consciously, knowledgeably deceiving us, but those two things are very different.

The Trent is dogma that declares the anathemas against Protestants.

That can never disappear. In fact, if you notice, Pope Francis, the most liberal pope in the history of the

Catholic Church, has said or done nothing to condemn, renounce, or overturn the

Council of Trent. He can't. But some of those things that are in the catechism and those things that are in the

Vatican II that were just stated as disciplines or teachings, those things may change.

In fact, your more conservative Catholic, like Robert St. Genes, he would totally denounce the

Catholic catechism's acceptance of non -Christian religions, like Judaism and Islam and other religions, as offering a way into heaven.

He rejects that totally. So, the Catholic Church of the 21st century is definitely a very confusing, jumbled up, confusing mess, really, of heresy.

But we are going to our final break right now. If you'd like to join us on the air, now is the time to do it before we run out of time.

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This is Chris Arnzen, and we are now in our final 25 minutes of our interview with Rich Jensen, pastor of Hope Reform Baptist Church of Medford, Long Island, New York.

And joining me as co -hosts are Anthony Uvino of newyorkapologetics .com, and the

Reverend Buzz Taylor is in studio with me. If you'd like to join us on the air, I would advise you to do so now before we run out of time.

Our email address is chrisarnzen at gmail .com, chrisarnzen at gmail .com.

And please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside of the

USA, and only remain anonymous if it is about a personal and private matter over which you are asking.

And we have, oh by the way, Anthony Uvino had to depart the program.

He had some obligations that he had to participate in, so we thank Anthony for being on the program with us today.

We have a first -time listener from Long Island, New York. He doesn't specify what town, but Eric says, can you explain what 2

John 5 verse 10 means? If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house or give him any greeting, for whoever greets him takes part in his wicked works.

That's an excellent question, because as you may know, Pastor Rich, there are even conservative

Christians who disagree with one another on what that means. Some would even say that you should never let a

Jehovah's Witness into your house when he comes to your door, even if you are knowledgeable enough to sit there, discuss your differences with them, and refute their beliefs through the

Bible. They would say, no reason at all allows you to welcome that person into your house.

And other people, other Christians, say that that is referring to somebody who's actually setting up some kind of a ministry or religious outreach in your home that would be bent on not only deceiving the members of your family, but those outside of your home from your house as like a headquarters of some kind.

What is your opinion on this? Okay, well, firstly, you have to understand 2

John in light of 1 John. I think that's my take, and in fact, 3 John in light of 1

John as well. And what John has been refuting, if you read the

Epistle of 1 John, mostly what he's refuting is the Gnostic heresy, those who went out from the fellowship and were involved in the

Gnostic teachings. That's pretty clear from his whole 1st Epistle, and that's where he actually refers to those as being anti -Christ.

So if you go back then to 2 John, and as he's writing to this church, and he says, if anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, he's still referring to the same thing, because again,

I think it's very obvious that the is just a follow -up to the 1st letter. And I take it more that it's somebody who is actually teaching, not somebody who is just an adherent or a follower of a certain religion, because that's what the danger is.

The danger is the false teachers giving them any type of an inroad, and that has to be shunned at all costs.

And I believe that that's what John is referring to here. I've heard the others, you know, not accepting people into your home.

I don't really think that's it. It has to do with the false teachers that are coming, which we are constantly warned about in Scripture, not just in 1

John and 2 John, but throughout all of the Scripture. A lot of Paul's writings, too, are constantly warned about giving false teachers any voice.

Well, let me give you an example just to have you further clarify what you're saying. Our mutual friend

Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries has, until they marked his house out as a house to be avoided at all costs, the

Jehovah's Witnesses used to come to his home, and he would welcome them into his house, knowing that they would be trying to teach him false theology and a false gospel and a false

Christ. But he, obviously, was a man prepared to take apart and dissect their false teaching and show them their error from the

Word of God. But he wasn't letting them set up house in his own home to have a kingdom hall or something like that.

Do you think that that kind of activity, where especially when you have a seasoned and knowledgeable Christian, knows that he can refute false teaching from someone who is coming to his house to proselytize him, is that an appropriate action to let him in your house?

Oh, absolutely. I think, and especially if you understand who James White is and the ability that he has, that's exactly,

I think, what the Scripture as a whole would mandate. One of the problems, too, is people come and they do, you know, we call it exegesis by scissors.

You know, what do they do? They take 2 John 10 and just pull that out of the Bible, and then they forget anything else that the

Bible teaches, you know. And that's wrong. You have to look at every verse in light, not only of the previous verses and the book, but in the

Bible as a whole. Clearly, we are warned against false teachers and not to give them air, you know, air to influence the flock.

But those of us who are elders and overseers of the flock, it is up to us to guard the flock from them.

And yes, and if we can win our enemy to Christ, by all means, we should be doing that. And in fact, isn't it true that the only people, it seems from the

Word of God, the New Testament, that the only teaching that compels us, warns us, commands us not to eat with someone or have any kind of social relationship with them, it is when a person is professing to be a fellow

Christian, and they are living an unrepentant life? Isn't that really the only restriction to enjoying the company of a non -believer?

I believe you're right. It's the only one that I can think of off the top of my head. If there's another one, I'm just not thinking of it.

And again, that makes perfect sense. Why would the Apostle Paul say that? Because that's going to damage the testimony of the

Church. It's going to infect the rest of the Church, you know, and we're talking about people who are excommunicated, and they need to be treated in a certain way.

And again, even that is not hateful. The most loving thing you can do is, as Paul says, turn that person over to Satan for the destruction of the body that the soul might be saved.

So I mean, we're not doing it out of vindictiveness, but to do what is right to honor Christ and to put that person in a position where, you know, with all the snares of the enemy come against them, that they'll drop to their knees and repent of what they've done and then come back.

But that's a totally different circumstance than this other situation. Okay, I've found out where Eric is from.

He's from Port Jefferson Station, Long Island, New York. That's a town very familiar to you, obviously,

Pastor Rich. And thank you very much, Eric. Eric is also a first -time questioner today.

And thank you for providing your mailing address, Eric, because you have also won a free

New American Standard Bible, compliments of the publishers of the NASB, and also compliments of our friends at Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, CV for Cumberland Valley, BBS for BibleBookService .com.

We'll actually be shipping that out to you. And keep listening to Iron Shepherd's Zion Radio, and keep spreading the word about it in Port Jefferson Station, Long Island, and beyond.

Now this, what we were just talking about, actually, and I think it is in keeping with the walls of separation theme, how is what you were describing about, or we were both describing, about how a

Christian is supposed to be behaving with a professing

Christian that is living unrepentantly? How are we supposed to woo them back to Christ, to the

Church, to repentance if we totally cut them off, as we have heard the term with the

Amish and some of the cults, the term shunning? How are we in our activity with the professing

Christian in unrepentance different in our, how are we different in our activity than what would be called shunning?

Well, firstly, shunning means you don't talk to them, in fact, you pretend that they're not even there, you know, with the old proverbial cold shoulder.

I try to do that every day with Buzz Taylor on my program. It's tough because I just don't go away.

But anyway, I'm sorry. What we are commanded to do, and I'll just take one example, and again, there's different sections of Scripture depending on what the sin is, but the overriding one that most people are more familiar with is

Matthew 18, where Christ tells us, you know, if your brother has sinned against you, go to him. If he doesn't listen, you know, then take one or two witnesses with you, and if he still doesn't listen, then tell the

Church, all right? And ultimately, then he's put out of the congregation, and he's, and what

Jesus says is he's to be treated as a publican and tax cop, as a sinner.

He's to be treated as a sinner. How do we treat sinners? We want to win them to Christ, all right?

So we've had this very situation in our

Church. Unfortunately, over the 21 years that we've been a Church, there have been a number of times that we've had to excommunicate someone for unrepentant sin, and in most cases, you know, what happens soon as you get to that point before you're going to tell it to the

Church, boom, they're gone. They leave, okay? And never to darken your door again, but if they do, and this is what

I've instructed my congregation to do, when you see that person, if you see them, whether it be the marketplace or anything else, engage in the conversation, but here's what the conversation is.

When are you going to repent? You know the truth. You understand. You sat under the preaching of the

Word. You understand the danger that you are in. You need to repent, and that has, that is the way we have practiced, and we've had at least one situation where someone who had been excommunicated from this

Church came back, all right, and just asked if they could sit under the preaching, and as a result of that, there was full repentance and restoration back to the fellowship.

That's the way it's supposed to work. So you're not supposed to... Go ahead, go ahead, I'm sorry.

No, I mean, what do we want them to do? We want them to hear the Gospel, and we want them to repent. That's the whole idea.

So you're not barring the unrepentant professing

Christian from attendance to the worship, you're just barring them perhaps from the Lord's table and voting privileges and things like that.

Am I correct? Absolutely. Right. Yes, from Christian, from normal Christian fellowship. We are not supposed to engage in normal Christian fellowship.

We treat them like a non -believer. Right, and of course... We don't walk around, you know, throwing darts at non -believers, you know.

We don't shove them on our side. We don't shun them. We want to win them to Christ. Amen, and the love involved in discipline is sometimes overlooked, meaning that there are people who view discipline as something harsh and mean and cruel, when it can be the most loving thing that you could do.

For instance, you know of my history of going through a season when I returned to drunkenness, to a habitual state, and I believe with certainty that if it were not for discipline

I would not be sitting here with air in my lungs and a beating heart because of that discipline.

The discipline is not hateful or evil or vindictive. It's an act of love.

Am I right? That's exactly right. It's the most loving thing you can do to a

Christian who has fallen into that sinful lifestyle, and that's exactly...

Look, it's the instruction of Christ. Somebody who says, and there's an arrogance to somebody who says that we would never do that, you know, because that's harsh and unloving.

You're telling me then that you're more loving than Christ. Right. These are the words of Christ. This is what we follow.

That's right. You know, they may not see it that way, but there's an arrogance to that, that they know better. They're more caring.

They care more for the person than Christ does. That's right. It's simply not true. And that goes hand in hand with ecumenism.

There are people who are saying that we are cruel and unloving and bigoted for not having ecumenical relationships with Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox and others, when the

Apostle Paul was very clear that the

Judaizers were teaching a false gospel that was no gospel at all, and that they were to be accursed.

And ironically, they, in many ways, might be even less severely in contradiction to evangelicalism in the

Roman Catholic Church. I mean, the Judaizers, all we know is that they required circumcision for someone to become a

Christian. From what we can see, they didn't deny the deity of Christ or that Christ's death was necessary.

We don't have anything in Paul's writings to the Galatians or anywhere else that they differed with us on those things.

They just denied, obviously, the sufficiency of Christ's death because they insisted upon circumcision.

So there you have people who are really expecting us to be more loving and tolerant than the

Apostle Paul, and they think they are more loving and tolerant than the Apostle Paul. Yeah, and you know, it's interesting.

There's a verse in Proverbs that says, even the compassion of the wicked is cruel. And by people thinking that they're being loving and not following the biblical mandate, they're actually being cruel, because they're allowing people or placating people in their sin, which is the worst thing that you can do for them, you know?

And the same thing with, you know, when we take it on a wider step, you know, liberals, just look at the status of our country when the liberal mindset takes over, and they want to just give everything away, and they want to be loving and kind.

And the next thing you know, I mean, there's no accountability, and they're hurting people, you know?

Just take it in this vein. How do we help the poor? Well, our system, our liberal system says, well, we just got to give them a handout.

That's what they need. They need a handout. And what does that do? That makes them reliant on a handout. And that person becomes miserable, and you got generations of people just relying on a handout.

What is the, what's the biblical model? Paul says, if you don't work, don't eat. He doesn't eat. That sounds cruel, but it's better for the person, because that's the motivation that they may need to get a job, you know?

Now, again, I'm not talking about people who can't work or who are on disabilities and stuff like that.

There's ways of handling that, too. And actually, that should be the church. But that's a whole other, that's a whole other topic.

We have B .B. in Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, who says,

I fully understand and agree with you that we are not to have ecumenical relationships with Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox individuals, which means that we are not to participate in worship gatherings or in religious activity that gives the false impression that we are viewing each other as brothers and sisters in Christ.

However, what is your opinion on attending things such as a Roman Catholic wedding or funeral, where they are participating in a false rite or ceremony such as the

Mass? Well, again, I think there needs to be a distinction made of participating or giving credence to the

Mass as opposed to being there and supporting and sympathizing with a family who has lost a loved one.

And that's where it takes wisdom to know just how far you can go. You know, it depends on, you know, on what part is the person going to play in it.

Right. I mean, clearly, if, you know, if you're going up front, you know, during the

Mass and taking part in it, I think that can, that might cross the line, because now it looks like you're giving full heartiness to it.

Well, I think you're saying that tongue -in -cheek, you're certain that we should not take part in the Mass, right? Yes, that's what

I'm saying. No, I'm saying if somebody did that, that was an if.

If somebody did that, that would certainly give the impression that they're in full agreement with what's going on, and the believer can't do that.

But there's nothing wrong with celebrating the wedding of someone. I mean, I would go to a Jewish wedding.

I would go to a Native American wedding if they were having some kind of a wedding. I just would not participate in the pagan ritual itself that was going on, or the false ceremony.

And, you know, I would just observe and celebrate after, or mourn with those who are grieving, you know, as far as a funeral is concerned.

And there are ways in which you can support people, one, rejoice with them at the weddings, and two, mourn with them during the funeral, without actually taking part in the service.

There's many ways in which you can do that, and some of those ways may be better, you know. For example, at a funeral, for example, everybody's there, everybody's, you know, gathered around, and then they maybe go back to the house later and everything else.

The best thing the Christian can do is be there for the days afterwards, because that's when reality starts to set in, and all the support is gone, you know.

So, there's other ways of supporting than actually joining in and being part of, like you say, a ritual that we would disagree with.

And don't you think we should fully participate in whenever possible and enjoy the company,

I wouldn't call it fellowship, but the company of Roman Catholics and those of other religions, even

Muslims and all kinds of religions, or even atheists, when they're having barbecues, when they're having social gatherings, when they're maybe gathering for Thanksgiving.

It's always, I find it ironic and kind of comical that atheists would actually celebrate Thanksgiving, who are they thanking?

But if they invite you over to enjoy their company, and when opportunity arises, evangelize them, but don't you think that we need not be a non -stop

Christian robot who just is there for the sole purpose of proselytizing?

Don't you think that we should even let these people know that we care and love them by enjoying their company, in addition to taking advantage of those opportunities of evangelism?

Of course, the wisest man outside of Christ who ever lived said that there's a season for everything, a time to dance, a time to mourn, a time to weep, you know, all of those type of things.

And yes, I mean, you're putting this life, to have life in that abundantly, and that includes all of these other things.

And so, as long as you're doing all to the glory of God, you know, whether you're eating and drinking, the mundane affairs of life are all done to the glory of God.

But you're right, you don't constantly have to be spouting Scripture. What's more important is that you're living it out, and there's an old saying, all right?

It might have been Vance Habner, I'm not sure, but one of the old Baptist preachers, and he says, you know, people don't care what you know unless they know that you care.

So that's part of, I think, what you're talking about. Yes. That if you really do care for their souls, befriend them.

Be there for them. Help them in their needs. Rejoice with those that rejoice. Weep with those that weep. And do those things, and you will get the opportunity to present the

Gospel, because they're going to see the difference in you. If they see Christ in you, you don't have to worry about getting the opening.

They're going to ask you. Right. And I'm assuming that you would reject what has been called a lifestyle evangelism, where people don't ever bring up the

Gospel or a call to repentance, where they just say, I'm just going to be a light of Jesus Christ by living in a wholesome and obedient way, but I'm not going to evangelize those around me.

That would be a very wrong approach, and a disobedient approach, wouldn't it be? That's a cop -out.

That's a cop -out for not doing what you're supposed to be doing, you know? Right. We're told to always give an answer for, to be able to give an answer for the hopes and lives of any to all who ask.

If you're actually living, people are going to ask. You know, so this idea that I don't ever have to say a word,

I'm just going to be the living epistle, that's not going to happen. Right. If you are really living out

Christ in your life, all right, people are going to want to know because they can't help it, you know?

Do we have time for one quick story? Yes, but it has to be quick. Okay. I had a boss when

I was in homicide, and we wound up, we had to sit on a stakeout together.

Before he got in my car, he said, wait a minute, before I get in your car, he says, I've heard that you're one of those born -again freaks and everything else.

I don't want to hear one word about that, do you understand? I said, hey boss, it's your nickel, you know? So he gets in the car.

He's not in my car for one minute. He says, so what does it mean to be born again? He couldn't help himself, all right?

And if you're living it out, those are the things that are going to happen. And for the next half hour, I went through Scripture with him while we were on the stakeout.

Wow. Well, praise God for that. Well, I want our listeners to know that the website of Hope Reformed Baptist Church in Medford, Long Island, New York is hopereformedli .net.

Hopereformedli .net. Do you have any other contact information you care to give? No, I think that's pretty much, our telephone number is 631 -696 -5711.

631 -696 -5711. And don't forget about the conference and the celebration of the 500th anniversary of the

Gospel of the Reformation, which begins on Friday, September 29th at the

Word of Truth Church in Farmingville, Long Island, continues through September 30th at the

Word of Truth Church, and then concludes on Sunday morning, October 1st at Hope Reformed Baptist Church of Long Island.

The Word of Truth website, again, is wotchurch .com.

W -O -T, for Word of Truth, church .com. Thank you so much, Pastor Rich Jensen. I look forward to your return very soon to Iron Trepans Iron Radio.

God bless, Chris. And I want everybody to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater