August 29, 2017 Show with Rich Jensen on “Walls of Separation: Where They Are Required & Where They Must be Torn Down”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors, Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another. Matthew Henry said that in this passage, quote, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions. Now here's our host, Chris Zarns. Good afternoon, Cumberland County,.

Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com. This is Steve Brown of Reformed Theological Seminary, professor of homiletics, filling in for Chris Zarns today.

No, that's just a joke because I have something wrong with my throat today that occurred in the middle of the night, and for some reason I sound like homiletics professor Steve Brown. I don't know why.

But this is Chris Zarns and your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, and I'm delighted to have two old friends, very dear friends of mine, and I'm not referring to their ages, I'm referring to the age that I've known them, or the number of years that I've known them.

Rich Jensen returns as a guest today, pastor of Hope Reform Baptist Church of Medford, Long Island, New York. He's also going to be discussing a special visit from Dr. Tomi Costa of Toronto Baptist Seminary, who'll be preaching at Hope Reform Baptist Church of Long Island, as well as the Word of Truth Church in Farmingville, Long Island, not far away, and also on the program co-hosting alongside Reverend Buzz Taylor, who is my in-studio co-host.

We have on the phone co-hosting with me, Anthony Uvinio of New York Apologetics. But first of all, let me welcome back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Pastor Rich Jensen. It's good to have you back, and some of the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio listeners may remember, or that name Rich Jensen may ring a bell to you, because Pastor Rich Jensen was a moderator at a debate that I orchestrated a number of years ago between two very dear friends of both of ours, Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries, who's a Reform Baptist, and Pastor Bill Shishko, formerly of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church in Franklin Square.

He's still a member there, but he is now the domestic missionary for Reformation Metro New York, and they debated on infant baptism, and Pastor Rich Jensen was the moderator, so many of you may recall that, seeing that on YouTube or some other location.

And it's also great to have back on the program, this time as a second co-host, Anthony Uvinio of New York Apologetics. Great to have you back.

Chris, thanks for having me. I really appreciate it.

And in studio with me is the Reverend Buzz Taylor.

So it's getting a little bit crowded here.

Yep, and if anybody would like to join us on the air, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com, C-H-R-I-S-A-R-N-Z-E-N at gmail .com. Please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the USA, and you may remain anonymous if it's about a personal and private matter that you are asking.

And first of all, before we even go into the topic at hand, Pastor Rich Jensen, the Iron Sharpens Iron audience is growing very rapidly, and I am typically hearing from new listeners that have just discovered the program nearly every day, who have fallen in love with the program and have begun listening regularly.

They will perhaps be unaware of what Hope Reform Baptist Church of Medford, Long Island is. So why don't you tell our listeners about that church?

We are a reformed Baptist church of 21 years. We were planted here of getting the doctor.

And you are a retired homicide detective with the Suffolk County Police Department.

That's correct.

And you were, at one time, the youngest homicide detective in the history of the force. Do you know if anybody has beaten that record?

No. Well, I was the youngest detective. I made that when I was 25 years old.

Okay.

But I wasn't the youngest homicide detective. Usually, you don't get into homicide from being young. You have to have been around a few years.

Well, has anybody beaten your detective record as far as your youth?

I don't really know. I haven't heard. I don't know.

That's good. And Anthony Uvinio, let our listeners know about New York Apologetics.

We are an apologetics organization on www .NewYorkApologetics .com. And what we do is go on to college campuses and high schools and even in some churches and just try to train people up on the arguments.

So many times, these kids go to college attacking their beliefs. And a lot of times, these young adults don't know how to answer. And I think in the church, we've been taught what to think. We haven't been taught how to think.

So when we start going through these arguments, the evidential arguments for the existence of God, it opens a whole new world to them. And we try to explain to them that without around here and seeing more and more people.

Great. Well, we have to see if we can.

Arrange something for New York Apologetics out here in Carlisle on the campus of Dickinson College. Dickinson College is right down the road from me, the many campuses of Dickinson College. You may remember that when you were out here moderating the debate that Dr. Tony Costa had with Robert St. Genes, the Roman Catholic apologist on the immaculate conception and sinlessness of Mary.

And quite a large campus they have. And there are Christians there that have ministries on campus. So maybe we could work some kind of special event out sometime. It's a very liberal school, but there are a tiny remnant or there is a tiny remnant of evangelicals who are basically laboring on the mission field there.

I would love that opportunity. That'd be a terrific thing to collaborate on.

Separation from Rome, Eastern Orthodoxy, and False Gospels

And speaking of Tony Costa, Tony Costa is coming out to Long Island, New York, not only to speak at Hope Reform Baptist Church of Long Island, but also at the Word of Truth Church. And Pastor Rich Jensen and Tony, Anthony, I should say, you are both actually involved in this three-day weekend of events, are you not, in regard to the Gospel of the Reformation 500th anniversary, which starts at the Word of Truth Church in Farmingville, Long Island on Friday, September 29th and ending on September 30th, Saturday.

And then Tony Costa is coming over to Hope Reform Baptist Church for the Sunday morning worship service, Sunday, October 1st at 11 a .m. But this is all a part of the Gospel of the Reformation 500th anniversary celebration,.

Is it not? Yes, that's correct, in the Long Island spurge. Amen. Well, we are talking,.

Oh, but let me give some information, even though we're going to be repeating it. If anybody would like to find out more about the Word of Truth Church, where the first two days of the Gospel of the Reformation celebration are being held, the Word of Truth Church website is WOTChurch .com, WOT, standing for Word of Truth, Church .com, WOTChurch .com.

The phone number there is 631 -806 -0614, 631 -806 -0614. And then on, as I said, on Sunday, October 1st at 11 a .m., Dr. Tony Costa of Toronto Baptist Seminary, who is the professor of apologetics and Islam there, he will be also speaking at Hope Reformed Baptist Church of Medford, Long Island, New York.

And you can go to their website, hopereformedli .net, hopereformedli, for LongIsland .net, or call them at 631 -696 -5711, 631 -696 -5711 for more details on how to get to that location and so on. But today we are talking about a controversial issue.

We've been hearing a lot about building a wall during not only the presidential primaries, but even subsequent to President Trump winning the election for the presidency of the United States. We've been hearing a lot about a wall being erected, although it's not happened yet.

But there are other walls of separation that are even vitally more important than that wall. And I'm talking about primarily walls that Christians should have erected between themselves and those who profess to be Christians but have a false gospel, and even those who don't even profess to be Christians at all, but they are members of world religions and cults.

And therefore there has to be a wall of separation where not only those from the respective churches or religions are aware that there is a wall of separation dividing them, but also that the world at large knows that there is a wall of separation.

And there are also walls that Christians erect when they fall into the error on the other end of the spectrum of ecumenism or modern-day ecumenism, liberal ecumenism. When they fall into the opposite extreme of that, they can become cultic or isolationist, and they just bring their separation to such an extreme that they are cutting off fellowship with those who are truly brothers in Christ, brothers and sisters in Christ for whom Christ died.

And that would be an error as well, a serious error. But as far as a wall of separation that is required... And by the way, Anthony Uvino, please, since I can't see you, please chime in at any time that you think that there's an opening or a break in our conversation.

You could chime in anytime because I can't see you, so I don't know when you have an interest in joining the conversation. So you don't have to wait for me to call upon you. But Pastor Rich, there is an ecumenical movement that began with the liberals where Protestants said that the theological differences that they had with Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox were not serious enough, not important enough, to have a wall of separation.

And they welcomed full, unfettered fellowship with Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox and others because they believed that the things that they had in common were enough to unite them. And that has now left the exclusive backyard of liberalism.

And over the past number of years, maybe even the last decade or so, or more, more and more conservatives or professedly conservative Protestants are linking arms with Roman Catholics and claiming and identifying that they are indeed our brothers in Christ because they are joining us, standing together with us with locked arms in opposition to abortion, in opposition to same-sex marriage, and a lot of other things that any person with a biblical worldview would find abhorrent.

Where does Hope Reform Baptist Church and where do you specifically stand on that issue of separation from Rome and Eastern Orthodox and all others who profess to be Christian,.

Who do not share the gospel of the Reformation? Well, again, I think it's a complex question, and we can see that just by how long it took you to ask it. I mean, there are different levels, if you want to put it that way, to Matthew, Henry, and probably who we even associate with.

And so, I mean, the evangelical Christians, we know they're brothers in Christ, but yet it's not necessarily to try and engage in, treat them as non-believers, absolutely not. But where you have some...

I can't imagine evangelical Christians, someone who has been regenerated by the Holy Spirit, who understands what Christ did on the cross and his resurrection and his ascension into heaven, participating or giving credence to a man.

I just, to me, that defies imagination, how you could possibly do that if you really understand what the Roman Catholic doctrine of the mass is. So, I think clearly separation, can we stand, yes, we have groups that evangelize on the street, but when they're standing in front of the abortion clinic, preaching the gospel as much to them as we are to the young ladies who are going into the abortion clinic.

If they're holding to all the doctrines, we can stand on the line together and we're not going to shoo them away, but on the other hand, we can't say that we're in full agreement with.

What they're doing. Right, I have heard from people who are evangelical Protestants, who if they happen to be at a Roman Catholic wedding where the mass is involved, or a funeral, or for some other reason, that they find themselves in a Roman Catholic church.

I have heard people say that they will take the Roman Catholic Eucharist and they say, well, I'm just thinking about something else in my mind when I'm taking it. I'm not thinking of it the way Rome views the mass and the Eucharist.

I'm thinking of it in more of a Protestant way in my mind, but I just, I partake of it nonetheless, even though they have a different opinion. Now, isn't this really outside the bounds of proper Christian behavior?

First of all, the Roman Catholic Church doesn't even want you to partake in their mass if you deny transubstantiation, that those elements are actually and truly the body and blood of Christ, and it's ironic that they only give the laity the body and only give them the bread or the wafer,.

But this is not proper behavior, is it, Mr. Rich? Oh, I can't imagine. I do know people that do that. I do know people that do that. Yeah, I think it certainly shows, at the very least, a naivete. How can you possibly participate in something where they're saying that they're crucifying Christ again, you know?

He's being sacrificed again. I can't imagine how... Well,.

Yeah, I'm thinking about that. And they actually, because of the fact that they believe that is truly Christ, that is the actual body and blood of Christ, they worship those elements. Those elements are actually idols because they actually worship them.

And just to... Go ahead, I'm sorry. No, go ahead. Anthony Uvini, I'll call upon you now because of the fact that you are, just like I am, a former Roman Catholic. You were raised Roman Catholic, and at some point in your life, the Lord, in his sovereignty, saved you and drew you out of that church.

What do you say to your say to them, I can't partake in this ceremony? In fact, I've had friends here in Carlisle, Pennsylvania, who have very recently had to risk offending their family. And I think that there was some offense taken because one of the nieces was not only baptized, but niece and nephew were baptized into the Catholic Church.

But you also had an older niece having the confirmation, the sacrament of confirmation. And this friend of mine, who actually led me to Christ 30 years ago, said that she could not participate in these celebrations.

Do you have... You face similar.

Things, Anthony, and how do you approach them? Yeah, I do face similar things. I don't want to say, fortunately, my family isn't, because they don't get in my merit to the Roman Catholic Church or religion of works, or could do, came to the inside of Jesus.

Get me down off of him. He's acknowledging in Christ and repentance of your eternal life. He was nailed to a cross. There was no work he could possibly do to merit him getting into heaven. You're at a time that you have to go through for the purging of your sins.

Yeah, well, I have found it interesting in my own experience,.

Not with my family, but with the families of close friends, that even nominal Catholics can tend to be quite hostile and outraged if someone converts to biblical Christianity, just because of the fact that that is somehow connected to a family tradition, because of the fact that you're calling into question the salvation of all of the ancestors of that family.

In fact, I even know a Jewish brother in Christ who, when he was a nominal Jew, along with his family, who were not kosher, they just celebrated the Passover and some other Jewish festivals, and they had bar mitzvahs and things like that, but they weren't really Orthodox Jews, and they weren't committed to Judaism in any way, in a serious way.

And yet, when this brother that I know, who was a male stripper, when he came to Christ and abandoned all that, his mother set Shiva for him and wrote him off as dead, and so did his father. And when he attended a funeral with his Christian wife, Gentile Christian wife, of a family member who had passed away, the mother physically attacked his wife and had to be bodily removed from her.

So this is quite an interesting phenomenon, where you have people who aren't really even truly, actively involved in the religion that they claim is their own, and yet they have this hostility to the new birth, and to Christianity that is a genuine Christianity from the Scriptures.

Pastor Rich Jensen, isn't it true that the world, although they may say they have a love for Jesus or they have an appreciation for Him, as even Jewish people in the 21st century will tell you that they have an appreciation for Jesus, that He was a good man, and so on.

But when you push the envelope of genuine Christianity, Biblical Christianity, it evokes great hostility.

Very often, does it not, Pastor Rich? Yeah, absolutely. You know, people, and when you reveal that you don't want to hear that, all everybody wants to know is, oh yeah, Jesus is this nice, loving teacher who taught everybody to sit around the campfires and kumbaya, and we're all going to just get along together.

But when you find out that what he said, number one, he was the one who spoke more about hell than any other Biblical, two, he is the one who is going to come and judge the world. He is the one who's going to say at the last day that, you know, depart from me.

I never knew you. When you start painting what the full picture of Jesus is, not only is He loving, but He's going to be avenging God, and that's when they react negatively to it, because everybody just wants this nice picture.

Unfortunately, that's not just the world, Chris. You find that same thing within the Evangelical Church, supposed Evangelical Church today. You start talking about Jesus coming as judge, and they don't want to hear it.

You're absolutely right.

Yes, the answer to your question is yes, that's exactly what you find. When they find out who Jesus really is, He is God, He is holy, and He can't stand sin.

We're going to a break right now. If anybody would like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com. ChrisArnson at gmail .com. Please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside of the USA, and please only remain anonymous if it is about a personal and private matter that you are asking about.

We welcome questions and comments from people who agree with us, who vehemently oppose what we're saying, or those who are just not certain. We look forward to hearing from you and your questions for Pastor Rich Jensen when we return from this break, so please don't go away.

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We have two co-hosts today. We have on the phone Anthony Uvinio of NewYorkApologetics .com and also in studio is the Reverend Buzz Taylor. If you'd like to join us on the air with a question, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com, and we have the.

Reverend Buzz Taylor who has a question. Yes, when we bring up the subject of walls of separation, I can't help but interpret that in light of my own past, which, you know, Chris mentioned that you were old friends, but not in age, so I'm not sure how old you are, but I attended Bob Jones University in the 70s, and it seemed to me that the cardinal doctrine back then was separation, and it was largely between brothers in Christ, and then they had a doctrine that was referred to as second degree separation, like if you not only separated from neo-evangelicals, but you had to separate from those who were associated with neo-evangelicals, and I remember one of my biggest fears of going into the ministry was that I was going to violate some, you know, cardinal doctrine.

Of separation. Could you address that? Pastor Rich? Yeah, and yes, I'd be happy to, and I am familiar with that, because when I was a kid, I was a camp counselor down at Pinebrook Bible Conference, and the reason I bring it up is because a lot of the counselors came from Bob Jones University, so I'm very familiar, you know.

Yeah, and I think that's one of the dangers. Look, there's no question that your doctrine and how that works out, it might be difficult to work with other evangelical Christians. I would find it very difficult with somebody who is a full Arminian, because we're going to approach what we're going to say and everything else, it would be very difficult.

It doesn't mean I'm going to shun the guy, it doesn't mean I'm going to push him away, it's just that there's certain things that we can't really do together. You're talking.

About if you were like side by side with that Arminian and evangelizing the same people, that's.

What you're referring to, correct? Yeah, I mean, it would be very difficult, because we're going to say some things that are very, very different. Doctrine matters, and by the way, all doctrine is practical.

Doctrine affects how you think, what you do, and the way you're going to approach men coming from a Reformed perspective. Not shunning them, but how can you, about causing, if we understand that you can't treat them in a harsh manner and in an unloving manner, you have to love them, but that doesn't mean that you have to be able to do everything with them, and I think that's where he's appalled, you can't just say one blanket policy.

Go ahead, I'll continue. I think that's what, you know, we see in Scripture. God's law was given, and of course, coming from a Reformed perspective, I believe that God's law is still binding on us today, of course.

He's also given us the book to explain to us how do you apply that law in certain circumstances, and we need to understand, you know, how I even just apply that to how I'm going to have a relationship with a true believer and the others.

And Reverend Buzz Taylor is... Yeah, I just wanted to mention also, in addition,.

That the reason I mentioned that I attended back in the 70s is because I haven't had that association in now many decades, and I'm not sure if they still take the same stance on that or not.

Well, all I do know is that the current president of Bob Jones University just preached recently back in August, I think it was, I'm sorry, April, I think, I can't remember. It was just, it was not that long ago I attended the sermon audio conference in Manhattan, which is called the Foundations Conference, and Dr. Pettit, the, I think it's Steve Pettit, the current president of Bob Jones University, he preached there along with Reformed men, and I can tell you that if you do not know anything about the background of Bob Jones University, you would swear you were hearing a Calvinist preach, because he was actually clearly identifying as his own view the Reformed Ordo Salutis, the order of salvation, although he did not call it that, it was clear that he was giving that.

You know, along with that too, though, we're talking here about, you know, separating over doctrine and things, and I think we need to be careful to point that out, because there are still, I'm sure, a number of people on the landscape today who, like, for example, years ago, one particular preacher was accused of having Modernists and Compromisers on the platform with him, and it turned out that the Modernist and Compromiser was so, because he was wearing wire-rimmed glasses.

And back when you were going to Bob Jones University, Buzz, there was even only a certain a group of churches that the students were allowed to attend for worship, am I right, and that the only Calvinist churches that were given the green light by Bob Jones at that time.

Were the Free Presbyterian Church congregation. Well, I'm not exactly certain about that, because I was a Fundamentalist and a Baptist and everything at that time, and I didn't know.

The other groups either, so. Okay, well, my friend, in fact, a mutual friend of myself and Rich Jensen, Joe Bianchi, his daughter went there, and I believe that that.

Rule was still in force. I was there with Ian Paisley's daughter.

Yeah, it's an odd thing that they had a great admiration and respect for the Free Presbyterian Church of North America congregations, which is thoroughly Calvinistic, but because of the fact that they took a very strong stand against Catholicism, it seemed to win them over to want.

To have fellowship with them. But Pastor Rich, people divide over every little thing they can find nowadays, whether you use the King James Version of the Bible, wire-rimmed glasses.

Well, I don't think that one still exists, the wire-rimmed glasses.

Well, I hope not, but that was back in the days when I guess that meant you were a hippie or.

Something, I don't know. Right. But your point is that many churches, perhaps they are still a minority today because the biggest problem today is the modern ecumenical movement making inroads or already having made inroads into evangelicalism, but there are still people that do divide over things that are unbiblical reasons for division.

Am I right,.

Pastor Rich? Yes, and again, that's most unfortunate. I mean, look, even, again, here on Long Island, we've formed this Long Island Spurgeon Fellowship, and the main criteria, the fellowship and do the things that we, and the reason for the fellowship, and I think we have to have the freedom to do that.

Let me ask you a question about that.

When I became a member of what was then the Calvary Baptist Church of Amityville, Long Island, and which later became Grace Reformed Baptist Church of Long Island in Merrick, when I first became a member, not long after I was baptized, they said to me that I did not need to agree with everything in the 1689 London Baptist Confession, especially since I was a new believer, but I did have to submit to the fact that that was the teaching of the elders, and I could not attempt to undermine it amongst the congregation.

Would that be a similar stance that you take? Because when you are insisting that somebody agrees with a confession, that can require sometimes years of growth and understanding. Of course. I mean, look,.

Me. Right. Okay, and I'm not going to mention it because I don't want to bring it up again. Everybody knows what I'm talking about. At least Reformed Baptists do. In fact, we tell the people, we tell them, you know, we do that so that they're getting into, all right?

Because especially if they're coming from a somewhat different, and if they're coming from any other church as well, we want them to know. Again, and it's pretty much exactly what you said. They cannot undermine it.

If they disagree with something, they have to tell me about it, and we can talk those things through and see whether or not this is the church for them or not. But yes, I don't expect them to teach seminary courses.

All right, we have a question.

From Ted in Tuscaloosa, Alabama. He says, in the last few years, I've heard of an increasing number of evangelical believers, including some pastors, who have taken up Roman Catholic devotions such as the Liturgy of the Hours.

When I ask them how they reconcile, when I ask them, I lost my place here. Let's see, Liturgy of the Hours. Okay, when I ask them how they reconcile this practice with the inevitable bad theology, such as prayers for the dead and Marian devotion, they typically respond, oh, I just skip over those parts.

I am curious to hear your guest's take on this. Yeah, I've heard about similar things. I was just at a Bible conference not long ago in Indianapolis, the Gospel Coalition Conference, and Tim Keller, who is one of the founders of the Gospel Coalition, during one of his messages was discussing how he meditates on Catholic authors, and he was speaking about one particular Catholic author that's one of his favorites.

Isn't this treading.

On dangerous ground here? Yes, I think so. You know how I usually handle something like that? I tell them, let me put it to you this way. Suppose you come over to my house for dinner, and I have two bowls of stew, and I tell you, here, this one here, it's got a couple of pieces of bad meat in.

When you get to them, just pick it out. Which bowl are you going to choose? Yes,.

And I've had that experience at your house. Actually, I think it involved broken glass, but anyway, and I think that there should be a clarification, because many of the Church Fathers who would predate Roman Catholicism, no matter what Roman Catholic apologists will say, they will, of course, say that the Church Fathers were all Roman Catholic, and we're all in one accord, in agreement over Roman Catholic dogma, which is absolutely ridiculous and cannot be proven historically, but there are Catholics with a small c from the past that there would be no problem with us meditating upon them, reading them, and learning from them.

Augustine is a primary example, but isn't that true, that we shouldn't just shun everything.

Just because the word Catholic is attached to it? No, but that's a different question. What Buzz had mentioned was reading these things devotionally. No, that was a listener. There's a difference between that and going back and studying and learning, seeing how theology has developed over the ages.

Yes, because you happen to be a big supporter of classical.

Christian education, which would involve students understanding what non-Christians believe in order to have intelligent discourse and discussion and dialogue with them. I'm glad you brought that up,.

Because Anthony and I are part of a group of men who are seeking to start a classical Christian school here in Suffolk County. And that was not planned.

But yeah, well, we will definitely repeat your contact information. We have to go to a break right now. If anybody else would like to join us, and we do have a couple of people still waiting to have their questions asked and answered, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

If you have a question, chrisarnson at gmail .com, C-H-R-I-S-A-R-N-Z-E-N at gmail .com. Please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside of the U .S .A.

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