The Bible & the Quran: Which is the Light to the World?

It is an honor to be with you this afternoon here in Sydney, I hope that you all are blessed by the conversations we will have this afternoon.

A guide to humanity, the New Testament or the Koran? The New Testament teaches us in Matthew chapter 28 verses 18 through 20.

Jesus came up and spoke to them saying, all authority has been given to me in heaven and on earth.

Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the

Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you and lo,

I am with you always, even to the end of the age. Here at the end of the

Gospel of Matthew, we have Jesus' own presentation of the scope of what his continuing ministry through the disciples is to be.

They are to go to all nations and they are to baptize, they are to instruct, they are to command people, teaching them to observe all that Jesus commanded them.

You will notice that there are no limitations, they are to go into all the world, there is no time limitation, this is to the end of the age.

And so clearly the understanding that Jesus gives to his disciples is that the

Gospel message is to go to all the world until he comes again, it is for all peoples and all language groups.

And so there is no limitation provided in the great commission that Christians have been following ever since then.

Now why is Christianity for all the world? I'd like to present, given the very brief amount of time that we have, four points.

The Savior of all men is the incarnate word, Jesus Christ. It is the person of Christ that indicates to us that this is a universal message, who he is.

Secondly, the need met by the Savior is one shared by all men, that is their need is sin and the penalty of sin, since all have sinned and he is the one that can deal with that issue of sin, that his message is for all the world.

Thirdly, Jesus is the fulfillment of the prophecies God gave to his people of old. God had prophesied in the

Old Testament scriptures that there would be one who would come and Jesus fulfills those prophecies.

And finally, number four, the resurrection then becomes the foundation of the universal call to believe in Christ.

God demonstrates that the message of Jesus is the true message by raising him from the dead as he himself had said would come to pass.

And that then becomes the foundation upon which the Christian message is preached to all people. So very briefly, these four points, where we get that and then some discussion therefrom.

In Hebrews chapter one, the writer to the Hebrews said, God, after he spoke long ago to the fathers and the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in his son, whom he appointed heir of all things, whom also he made the world.

And he is the radiance of his glory and the exact representation of his nature and holds all things by the word of his power.

Here is one who has spoken from God, who is in fact the one who created. He is the one who can speak perfectly from the father because he is the exact representation of his very nature, his very person.

He has been appointed heir of all things. How could there be another messenger that could eclipse the message of this one who is in fact the creator of all things?

The one who has been appointed the heir of all things who upholds all things by the word of his power.

The very fact of this glorious person indicates that he is in fact the final word from God as it is said.

In the past, God spoke in these various portions. Now he has spoken with finality in these last days in his son.

This is likewise described for us when Paul writes to Colossians. In Colossians chapter 1, we are told, for by him, this is by Jesus, all things were created both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, for the thrones, dominions, rulers, or authorities, all things have been created through him and for him.

He is before all things and in him all things hold together. I don't know how more expansively the apostle

Paul could have described the creator than to exhaust the Greek prepositions used in this text to indicate that Jesus is not merely a part of the creation.

He is not only the one who made creation, in fact creation exists for him, through him, and in him all things find their consistency.

They hold together in him. This is a description of the creator who then enters into his own creation, which of course is the message as well of the prologue of John.

Here Jesus is described as the eternal Logos, the Word. In the beginning was the Word, and the

Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God, all things came into being through him.

And apart from him, or aside from him, nothing came into being that has come into being. In him was life, and the life was the light of men.

So here is a description of the eternal Logos, the one who in verse 14 of this chapter has said to have become flesh.

And who is he? John 1 tells us that he was eternal, and the beginning was the Word. The Word was as a point to any time of origin, source, or beginning.

As far back as you want to push the beginning, the Word already existed. The Word was with God. There was personal relationship between the

Son and the Father in eternity past. And the Word was God. The Word was as to his nature, deity.

This is the description of Christ, and so once again, once he gives his authority, his power to the people of God to go into all the world, how can there be one who then would eclipse his message that would come after him when he himself is described in such exalted language here in all these documents written in the first century after the time of Christ.

And so we have the incarnate Word, Jesus Christ. That is one of the biggest issues between us, because clearly from the

Islamic perspective there could be no incarnation. The question we will have to ask today is why? Why is that?

Why can't God have the ability to create the universe, but then for his own purposes not enter into that universe to display his mercy, his love, and his grace?

So the first point, the incarnate Word. The second point, man's need. Why is the message of Christianity universal?

Because all men, no matter where they are, share the same need. They experience sin and the penalty that exists for sin.

In Revelation chapter 21, we read these words, speaking of the final consummation of all things in the heavenly

Jerusalem. I saw no temple in it for the Lord God, the Almighty, and the Lamb are his temple.

And the city has no need of the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God has illumined it, and its lamp is the

Lamb. The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it. In the daytime, there will be no night there.

Its gates will never be closed, and they will bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it. But then notice this, and nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the

Lamb's book of life. Nothing unclean will enter into it. So how can there be anyone there if we all know our uncleanness?

We all know our sin. We know in the light of a holy God that we have a great need.

How, given the ultimate standard, that nothing unclean is going to enter into the presence of God in eternity to come, how can we possibly enter into his presence?

We have a sin problem. Indeed, as the scriptures likewise tell us in Romans chapter 3, verses 10 through 18, as it is written, none is righteous, no, not one.

No one understands. No one seeks for God. All have turned aside.

Together they have become worthless. No one does good, not even one.

Their throat is an open grave. They use their tongues to deceive. The venom of asps is under their lips.

Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness. Their feet are swift to shed blood, and in their paths are ruin and misery, and the way of peace they have not known.

Finally, Paul adds it all up. There is no fear of God before their eyes.

Here is his concluding testimony to the fact that mankind as a whole has gone astray.

Mankind is in rebellion against God, and can we not look into our news every single day?

When we turn on the television, we look at the internet, do we not see evidence of all of these words given to us over and over and over again?

All mankind has fallen under the power of sin. Paul likewise said in Galatians 3 .10

-13, For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, for it is written, Cursed should be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law to do them.

Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for the righteous shall live by faith. But the law is not of faith, rather the one who does them shall live by them.

Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us.

Here again we have the perfect standard of God's law presented to us, and yet no one lives up to that standard.

No one is able to give a perfect account of themselves. How then can anyone experience salvation?

Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us. We need someone who can bear the wrath of God in our place, and then can give us

His righteousness, the righteousness by which we can stand before a holy God. This was the message of the

Old Testament prophets as well. And in fact much of what is focused upon in regards to the ministry of this suffering servant is in regards to this issue of sin.

In the 53rd chapter of Isaiah we read, Surely our griefs he himself bore, and our sorrows he carried, yet we ourselves esteemed him stricken, smitten of God and afflicted.

But he was pierced through for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities. The chastening for our well -being fell upon him, and by his scourging we are healed.

Words written 700 years before the time of Christ, well aware of the fact that our Jewish friends understand these to be fulfilled in other ways other than Christ.

But I would simply ask you to think about that entire 53rd chapter. Who could have fulfilled all these things?

Who in fact in the 12th verse of the same chapter could we read these words about? Therefore I will allot him a portion with the great, and he will divide the booty with the strong, because he bore out himself to death, and was numbered with the transgressors, yet he himself bore the sin of many, and interceded for the transgressors.

He himself bore the sin of many. How can this be? Who can bear the sin of others if he himself is under the curse of the law?

We need a perfect sin bearer who can then intercede for transgressors. And that of course is exactly what the

Lord Jesus has done. That is why the early church looked to so many of the Psalms. Psalm 22 for example. My God, my

God, why have you forsaken me? The words of Jesus from the cross. Far from my deliverance are the words of my groaning.

But I am a worm and not a man, a reproach of men and despised by the people. All who see me smear at me.

They separate with the lip. They wag the head saying, Commit yourself to the Lord. Let him deliver him.

Let him rescue him because he delights in him. Echoing the words of mockery that Jesus endured upon the cross.

The 14th verse we read. I am poured out like water and all my bones are out of joint. My heart is like wax.

It is melted within me. My strength is dried up like a pop shirt. And my tongue cleaves to my jaws. And you lay me in the dust of death.

Verse 16. Dogs have surrounded me. A band of evildoers has encompassed me. They pierce my hands and my feet.

I can count all my bones. They look. They stare at me. They divide my garments among them. And for my clothing they cast lots.

And yet the 22nd Psalm does not stop there. It concludes by saying, Posterity will serve him.

He will be told of the Lord to the coming generation. They will come and will declare his righteousness. To a people who will be born that he has performed it.

The reason there is a Christian church this day, 2 ,000 years after the time of Christ. And long after these words were written.

Was because the Lord has fulfilled his promise. But time is so short. Finally, there is a universal command to believe and repent.

In Acts 13, 48. When Paul and the others were preaching in the synagogue. For the soul of the

Lord has commanded us. I have placed you as a light for the Gentiles. That you may bring salvation to the end of the earth.

Notice again. The universal aspect of the Christian message. When the Gentiles heard this.

They began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord. And as many as have been appointed to eternal life believe.

So here we have clear evidence. That the apostles understood the message of Christ. Not being just for the

Jews. Jesus wasn't just a Jewish Messiah. The Messiah was God's anointed one. For all the peoples.

I have appointed you as a light for the Gentiles. That you may bring salvation to the ends of the earth.

And that is why Christian missionaries to this day. Give their lives to bring the gospel. To people all around this planet.

To places that no one at the time of the writing of the New Testament. Could even imagine even existed. And yet that has been the

Lord's will during this time. I think in Acts 17. You really get the clear proclamation on this subject.

Therefore Paul said to the pagan philosophers on Mars Hill. Having overlooked the times of ignorance.

God is now declaring to men. That all people everywhere should repent.

Because he has fixed the day. In which he will judge the world in righteousness out. Through a man whom he has appointed.

Having furnished proof to all men. By raising him from the dead. What is the grounds upon which

God will judge all men? What is the grounds upon which the proclamation of the gospel is made?

He will judge the world in righteousness. Through a man whom he has appointed.

Having furnished proof to all men. How? By raising him from the dead.

Not only was the crucifixion of Jesus. Central to all the proclamation of the early

Christians. But so too was his resurrection. This was the most primitive

Christian message. And as they went out outside the borders of Israel. As they went out into all the world.

What did they proclaim? Even though they knew that men would mock. For after this what do the

Greeks do? They mock. Because Jesus talked about the resurrection. The Greeks didn't believe in the resurrection. They believed salvation was getting your spirit out of this body.

So they mocked the idea of the resurrection. But Paul does not stop. He does not avoid using a term he knew that they would mock.

Instead he gives the whole message. Because it is on the basis. God has provided proof.

Furnished proof to all men. By raising Jesus from the dead.

Now the irony is that this afternoon. We will have the opportunity I imagine. Discussing the fact that at least as far as the idea.

That the Torah and the angel contain light and guidance. Is something the Quran itself teaches us.

In Surah Al -Maidah 5, Ayah 46. And in their footsteps we sent

Jesus the son of Mary. Confirming the law that had come before him. We sent him the gospel.

Therein was guidance and light. And confirmation of the law that had come before him.

A guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah. So notice the Quran itself says.

The gospel contains guidance and light. Confirmation of the Torah that had come before him.

And then we have this interesting statement. In the very next ayah. Let the people of the gospel.

The Allah and Jill. Judge by what Allah hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by the light of what

Allah hath revealed. They are no better than those who rebel. And so here we have a command to the people of the gospel.

That would be me. That would have been people who lived in the days of Muhammad. To judge.

Let the people of the gospel. Judge by what Allah hath revealed therein. Therein what? In the gospel.

So clearly in the days of Muhammad. The people of the gospel. Had enough gospel to be able to judge.

Judge what? Well this whole section is about the prophethood of Muhammad. And the giving of the

Quran. And so if that is the case. We know exactly what was possessed by the

Christians at that time in history. We know what they possessed for many hundreds of years before that. And that continues to be the gospel which we possess to this day.

Given to us in the sacred scriptures. And so it is something we will have to discuss. As to how we can understand that.

So in light of the question today. Why is Christianity for all the world? I have given four points.

The savior of all men. Is the incarnate word Jesus Christ. How can there be a message. That would eclipse the message of one so glorious as he.

The need met by the savior. Is one shared by all men anywhere in the world. And that is sin.

And it is only through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. That the forgiveness of sins is proclaimed. Jesus is the fulfillment of the prophecies.

God gave to his people of old. This was something that God had always intended to do. It had always been his intention.

To send this one. Who would provide perfect salvation. As we saw in Isaiah and Psalm 22.

And finally the resurrection becomes the foundation. Of the universal call to believe in Christ. God has not left us without a witness.

There was one who said. That after three days I will rise again. And he did. And his apostles then went out into the world.

And they faced persecution. They faced the greatest power on earth in that day. The might of the empire of Rome.

And many tens of thousands of Christians died. Under the hand of Rome.

For their refusal to bow the knee to Caesar. Christians say Jesus Kurios.

In the original language Jesus is Lord. The city, the nation of Rome said. You are to say Kaiser Kurios.

Caesar is Lord. The Christians said Jesus is Lord. And they were willing to die for that. Because Jesus had died for them.

And God had then proven the truthfulness of that message. By raising him from the dead.

So is the New Testament. A light and guidance for all the world. As long as Jesus is who

Jesus said he was. As long as the scriptures testify. That all men are under the power of sin.

They need a true and living savior. As long as the Old Testament prophecies are fulfilled in him.

And the resurrection is a reality. Then the New Testament indeed is light and guidance. Unto the entirety of the world.

That is our subject for today. I thank you very much for being with us this afternoon. And I hope that you will listen carefully.

As both sides speak to this vitally important issue. Because from the Christian perspective. The Gospel remains valid to this very day.

Thank you very much. Thank you

Dr. James White. I will now call upon Abul Abdullahi to present his argument.

Thank you very much. I would just like to while I am opening this up.

Greet in particular our Christian guests today. Thank you very much for coming. And thank you for supporting this event.

And I genuinely hope that you at least get something out of it. If not from me. Or from the speaker that represents your faith.

And to the Muslims I will greet you with. As -salamu alaykum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh.

So the question that I am going to attempt to answer today. Is the

Quran actually a better guide for humanity than the New Testament? And in the brief we were saying that.

What we want to consider are some modern problems. Some problems that exist today.

Because what is the good of being a guide. If it is only relevant to say 7th century Arabs. Or 1st century

Greek speaking Jews or whatever. What is the point if it is only relevant to a very specific context.

And a very specific subset of humanity. So I want to kind of contend with the issue.

Well what is guidance? What is guidance? Can it be purely theological? Is guidance just something that is purely spiritual.

Purely related to the next life. Or can guidance be worldly? Is it purely worldly?

Does it have to be purely worldly? I'm going to put forward the assertion that in fact. To be a true guidance to humanity.

Any scripture or any revelation from God. Must fill both gaps.

It's got to appeal not only to our soul. But also to our bodies and to our current reality. So very quickly what is the

Quran? Where did it come from? The Quran for those of you that don't know. The Quran roughly translated means reading or recitation.

The Quran itself says that. This divine book. Let there be no doubt about it. Is a guidance for all the

God conscious. And we have given this divine book. To make every matter clear. And to provide a mercy and good news.

To all those that submit themselves to God. In Muslim belief God revealed the Quran.

To the prophet Muhammad through the angel Gabriel. Over a period of about 20 years. And what are the other options?

Well if you don't believe that. You can only believe that either Muhammad wrote it. Or other Arabs wrote it. Because the Quran itself is written in Arabic.

A very high form of Arabic. And indeed the definition of an Arab. Is actually one that understands and speaks the language.

So I want to look at what are some modern problems. That perhaps the Quran shed lights on. And indeed I'm not going to say.

That the Quran was specifically written. To deal with these issues. To deal with these issues today in 2009.

I'm not going to say that. What I'm going to say instead. Is that we have problems today. We've got some information in the

Quran. And those of you out there that are thinking. You know should come up with your own conclusion.

See if you think that there's actually a correlation. Between the problems that we have today. And some of the solutions or guidance.

Offered in the Quran. So I'm going to look at increasing abortion rates. I'm going to look at the obesity epidemic.

And fat diets. I'm going to very quickly touch on alcohol, drugs and gambling. And also the economic crisis and poverty.

And so how I'm going to do that. But also an aspect of public health. So how

I'm going to do that. Is very quickly give you some fast facts. So if you can't keep up with the facts.

Don't feel discouraged. I've got the references down at the bottom here. And in terms of the United Kingdom.

Because it's a little bit ahead of Australia. In terms of abortions. Particularly with medically induced abortions. In 2008 there were roughly 200 ,000 abortions in the

UK. Over 195 ,000. That corresponds to 18 .2 per 1 ,000 women.

In the population. And that's slightly down from 2007.

But 2007 is a big jump from 2006. 17 .1 to 18 .6

per 1 ,000. In 19 year old women. 36 out of every 1 ,000 had an abortion in 2008.

Think about that relevance to the students here at this university. How many 19 year old women are there here? Almost 2 ,000 of them with medical reasons.

So we've had 200 ,000 abortions. And 2 ,000 of them with medical reasons.

For example the child may have been a handicap when it was born. That's classified as a medical reason. New South Wales is a little bit different.

And indeed in Australia it's a little bit different. Abortion is still a criminal act in Queensland. But in New South Wales it's a little bit different.

We've got about 40 ,000 abortions. And really the population of New South Wales is roughly 6 million. And that's expected to increase as IU486, the abortion drug.

Becomes more readily available. It was approved in 2006. And slowly it's going to become more available.

And as I said you can look at those references for those facts there. One of the key issues is that most abortions are done by those from low socioeconomic backgrounds.

Very important to consider. Because what does the Quran say? Do not kill your children for fear of poverty.

It is we who shall provide sustenance for them as well as for you. Verily killing them is a great sin.

And do not kill your children because of poverty. It is we who shall provide sustenance for you as well as for them.

Now some people might look at this and think well why is this saying basically the same thing in a slightly different way.

If you look at the first quote that I've got there. It's saying do not kill your children for fear of poverty. So what that's saying is that the couple is not currently poor.

But they're afraid that if they have a child they will be poor. So the Quran says we'll provide for the child as well as for you.

Because their main concern is provision for the child. In the second one they're already poor.

So their main concern is themselves. And the Quran says first we'll provide for you and then for the child. Moreover the

Quranic economic system facilitates the provision for these poor people. Particularly through taxation as a cat and so on.

How does it happen in the first place? Well one day a snort visits mummy down by a cabbage patch. No that's not what happens.

Obviously we need to also have provisions to prevent this from happening in the first place. Now it would be all well and good if the

Quran for example said don't have illegal sexual intercourse. Or sexual intercourse outside of marriage. And it does say that.

But it also takes it a step further. And says tell the believing men to lower their gaze and be mindful of their chastity.

This will be most conducive to their purity. Verily God is aware of all that they do.

And tell the believing women to lower their gaze and be mindful of their chastity. And do not display their charms in public beyond what may decently be apparent thereof.

Hence let them draw their head coverings over their bosoms. So first of all the Quran is putting the responsibility on both men and women to lower their gaze.

To not be lustful. Both men and women not just one or the other. And on top of that because we're often labelled as being illogical or having a headscarf and perhaps skinny jeans or miniskirts or whatever.

The Quran says if you really must forget your headscarf and cover other things that people are going to find more attractive.

Think about that. Obesity, epidemic and fat diets.

Well it's expected that the current trend in obesity will remove most of the health gains made in the 20th century.

So we'll go back to having life expectancies of somewhere around 50 or less. And you know all sorts of other related diseases.

About 60 % of Australians are obese. And major causes of obesity basically are overeating and a sedentary lifestyle.

So eating too much and not doing much exercise. There are other causes but they're the major ones. Fat diets can be effective in the short term in terms of reducing weight but generally are ineffective and harmful.

Loss of essential nutrients has negative effects on health status. And you know just something as simple as iron and folate can mean that a child is born with significant deficiencies in those can mean that a child is born with significant disabilities.

The best diet is a balanced diet with appropriate replacements for those with intolerances. So if someone can't have gluten because they have celiac disease we give them rice bread instead so they're getting a decent amount of carbohydrates.

It's very important to have a balanced diet. And again there's a reference down there. And obviously obesity is a serious chronic condition.

It's not a joke. It leads on to other conditions like heart disease and diabetes. What does the

Qur 'an say? O children of Adam, unify yourselves for every act of worship and eat and drink but do not be excessive.

Verily he does not love the excessive. Note there that it's not just an instruction to the believers.

It's an instruction to humanity. O children of Adam. And the Qur 'an differentiates in this instance and in others.

The Qur 'an also promotes a balanced diet. For it is he who is brought into being gardens, both cultivated ones and those grown wild, in the date palm and fields bearing multiform produce and the olive tree and the pomegranate, all resembling one another and yet so different.

Eat of their fruit when it comes to fruition and give unto the poor their due on harvest day and do not be wasteful.

Verily he does not love the wasteful. Again there's that emphasis. Don't be excessive. Don't be wasteful. But here it's saying eat this, eat that, eat everything.

Not absolutely everything but make sure you're eating a variety of things. Even though they may seem similar, eat them all.

And all kinds of cattle have been made lawful to you. So again it's speaking about eating meat as well. A balanced diet.

Alcohol, drugs and gambling. Well the recent National Health and Medical Research Council guidelines, and this is from 2009,

May 2009, state that there is no safe level of alcohol consumption. One standard drink per day can increase the risk of some cancers by 70%.

The beneficial health effects of alcohol, i .e. on the cardiovascular system, are small compared to the negative effects, i .e.

the associated risk of cancer and other illnesses. Despite this, alcohol costs the

Australian community. 3 ,100 people die every year as a direct result of excessive drinking.

72 ,000 people are hospitalised every year as a result of excessive drinking. And social problems relating to excessive drinking alone cost $7 .6

billion annually. Sadly, as I said, these figures only relate to excessive drinking.

38 .1 % of Australians over 14 years have used an illicit drug. And again there's the references at the bottom.

What about gambling? Well player losses in 2005, because that's the most updated

Census figure we have, was $16 .9 billion in Australia. $16 .9

billion. 33 % of gambling profits, that's that figure up there, $16 .9

billion, come from problem gamblers. Yet only 2 % of Australians are problem gamblers.

So 33 % of that $16 .9 billion is coming from 2 % of the population.

On average, 3 % of a household's disposable income, so that's the income left after you've paid for all the essential items and spent on gambling.

But again, think about that relative to the small amount of problem gamblers. Think about just how much money has been spent in the home of a problem gambler on gambling.

Spouses and children are seriously affected, suffering stress, anxiety, depression, family breakdown and more. Problem gambling amongst underage gamblers is growing significantly in Australia.

Yet governments in Australia are dependent upon gambling revenue. In fact, the NSW state government lives off $5 billion every year of poker machine revenue.

What does God tell us about it? They will ask you about intoxicants and games of chance. Say, in both there is great evil as well as some benefit for man, but the evil which they cause is greater than the benefit which they bring.

So it's all well and good to say the government gets roughly $5 billion a year to build roads and build schools and all that sort of thing.

What about the 2 % of people that are losing their family, losing their homes, losing their livelihood? By means of intoxicants and games of chance,

Satan seeks only to sow enmity and hatred among you, and to turn you away from the remembrance of God and from prayer, will you not then desist?

O you who have attained faith, do not attempt to pray while you are under the influence of an intoxicant. And it's important to demonstrate here that there are two words used for intoxicant.

One is khamer, which basically means wine. It's related directly to alcohol. The later one, sukara, is referring to any mind -altering substance.

Sometimes people say this isn't a direct prohibition, but you can't pray while you're under the influence of a mind -altering substance.

Well, what mind -altering substance are you going to be able to take in between prayer times? For those of you that don't know, we pray pretty regularly, and I don't have too many illicit drugs

I'd be able to take without missing a prayer, so it's serious. He is, beforehand, giving us some advice.

What about the economic crisis and poverty? Since 2007, at the start of the economic crisis to now, there's been some major, major effects on even

Australian families, and we're relatively removed from it. I'd hate to imagine the situation in some parts of the

US. Essentially, the economic crisis was caused by excessive credit provision and push for material wealth, basically pretend money is pushing up the value of material things, and then it all falls down like a stack of cards.

This resulted in companies cutting back on jobs. 500 jobs per day have been lost in New South Wales since the financial crisis began.

500 per day. Homelessness as a result. Homelessness in families in Australia has increased by 17 % since the global financial crisis.

17 % in families! I'm not talking about people with mental disorders that aren't particularly living out of the world.

This is families, people with mortgages, people with children. Going from working with a mortgage to jobless and homeless is happening very quickly.

Again, I've got references at the bottom for those of you who want to check this later. And this is, as I said, working families in a country where there are social welfare provisions.

OK, so if you're absolutely in need, you can go down to Centrelink and get payments relatively easily in comparison to, say, the

US. Imagine what's happening in the US where they're being hit harder by the crisis and the social provision is less.

What does the Quran say? Those who gorge themselves on usury, interest, behave as those whom

Satan has mesmerised with his touch. For they say, buying and selling is but a kind of usury.

But God has made buying and selling lawful and usury unlawful. And this is why. Because interest itself removes money from the economy.

See, if I can get a guaranteed, say, 7 % return on interest by, you know, investing my money in a bank and then having to put out to a loan, why would

I ever invest in a business? Why would I ever help someone that's, you know, got a business idea? I wouldn't. I can get an interest return straight away.

So that whole interest system actually takes money out of the economy and floods the economy with pretend wealth, pretend money, which eventually all sucks in on itself like a black hole.

Also, give all you can in charity to the poor, and they will ask thee as to what they should spend in God's cause.

Save whatever you can spare. So take what you need and give what you can. In this way,

God makes clear unto you his messages so that you may reflect. For whatever you may spend on others or whatever you may vow to spend, verily

God knows it. And those who do wrong by withholding charity shall have none to help them in times of difficulty.

What about charities and atonement? Now, this is important, particularly when we're considering the Christian concept of atonement. God says, thus, if you've broken an oath that you've made that must be atoned for, feed ten needy people the same food that you're accustomed to in your house.

If you can't do that, clothe them. Free someone from bondage if you can't do that.

And if you can't afford to do that, well then fast three days instead. So here you've got a social provision for those that can afford it, and for those that can't afford it, you've got a concession.

It's not just a blanket rule that we expect everyone to be able to do. What about public health?

Well, public health measures, in short, have saved a multitude of lives since its inception as a medical science. Basically, public health is simple and basic measures that can increase the health status of the entire population.

They're very cheap, very effective. The Qur 'an overall has a focus on treating the poor, the masochean, well and providing for them anyway, so I don't need to go into some specifics.

But what about a particular measure? Well, the World Health Organization recently increased its recommended period of breastfeeding to two years, obviously combined with solid food after six months, but minimum period of breastfeeding for two years.

Now, before that, it was four months. This is expected to decrease infant mortality in the developing world by reducing the incidence of gastrointestinal infection, because basically, water in the developing world is generally not of high quality, but breast milk is going to be of high quality no matter what, because it's clean before it comes out of the mother, in short.

So that's going to increase their likelihood of surviving beyond infancy, and also through failure to thrive.

And again, there's a reference there. And also, breastfeeding has health benefits for women.

For example, it's demonstrated that there's a decreased incidence of breast cancer in women that breastfed. And so what does the

Qur 'an say? And we have joined upon man goodness toward his parents. His mother bore him by bearing strain upon strain, i .e.

through labour, and he was breastfed by her for two years. Hence, O man, be grateful towards me and towards your parents, and remember that with me is all journeys end.

It doesn't end here, but think about, and the Qur 'an again emphasises again and again about being kind to parents, looking after parents.

Think about the implications of this in terms of caring for parents and the current aged care crisis in Australia.

We wouldn't be shipping them off to nursing homes unnecessarily if we were all focused on things like this.

Why is the Qur 'an trustworthy? Well, in simple, simply the text doesn't contradict itself. We can be certain the

Qur 'an we have today is the same Qur 'an as the Prophet delivered. Now, I've quoted there the surnames of some secular scholars,

Orientalist scholars, non -Muslims. They all have significant positions at their respective universities.

Well, not Montgomery Watt anymore. He's passed away. But the whole point is that you can look at that if you don't believe me. Now, this is one argument.

There are obviously other arguments, but this is one argument, not just brought forth by Muslims. We know that this is what was brought forward initially.

No existing variants change the meaning of the text. Very, very important. And most were corrected in antiquity despite the political instabilities that occurred in the early

Muslim era. The Qur 'an doesn't just tell us how to worship. It doesn't just tell me what to believe.

It also tells me how to live in this life. So I'm not just waiting for Judgment Day. I'm not just accepting some idea and sitting back on my laurels and hoping that it's all going to come good.

It's telling me how to live in this life. And constantly reminding me that one day

I'm going to be accountable for every single thing that I do. And while there are many differences of opinion in terms of exegetical interpretation, in some specific instances, the overall guidance of the

Qur 'an is clear. So that's why it's trustworthy. Food for thought, very quickly, as I close my initial presentation.

And indeed, we have presented mankind all kinds of lessons in this Qur 'an. But thus it is, if you approach them with this message, those who are bent on denying the truth are sure to say, you're making false claims.

We'll bring your evidence. Indeed, God bestowed a favour upon the believers when He raised up in their midst an apostle from among themselves to convey

His messages unto them and to cause them to grow in purity and to impart unto them the divine book as well as wisdom, whereas before that they were indeed most obviously lost in error.

And this is an entire chapter, a very short chapter of the Qur 'an. Time. By the token of time, by the token of time through the ages, verily man is at a loss except those who believe and do righteous deeds and join together in the mutual teaching of truth and patience and constancy.

Thank you very much. Thank you very much for that presentation.

I would like to briefly respond to some of the issues that were presented to us. Mr. Poonam began with a discussion of abortion, obviously an issue that's very, very important to me as well.

I've been involved in debating that issue in the defence of the unborn for many, many years in the

United States. How does the New Testament address that issue? Well, it does in many ways. In the

Old Testament, a woman who was struck by men who were fighting and caused a loss of the life of the child would be punished on the basis of the loss of that life.

Proverbs tells us to deliver the innocent, to fight for the innocent. The New Testament directs us to marriage, one man and one woman together as a picture of Christ and the

Church, that Christ loved the Church as we are to love our wives. The concept of marriage and children as a blessing is deeply found in not only the

Old Testament but the New Testament as well. Obviously, we recognize that in many nations that once claimed to be at least somewhat involved in the

Judeo -Christian ethic, that it is the abandonment of biblical viewpoints on sexuality, abandonment of the biblical viewpoints on marriage, abandonment of the view that children are a blessing from God that has led to so many of our modern problems in our societies.

In my nation, it is very common for Christian values in these areas to be mocked by Hollywood, and I guess we export that poison over here as well, so that people in the society actually believe that marriage is not something to be held in high esteem by all people.

Another thing that Christians have always held to is this concept of adoption. In Rome, when abortion, or the form of abortion they had then, which was exposure, where you would take the newborn child and simply leave it outside to be eaten by dogs,

Christians were well known as those who would go out at night and would scour through the alleyways of Rome finding those infants that had been left for exposure and would adopt them as their own.

Indeed, the New Testament uses adoption as a picture of our relationship to God through Jesus Christ, that through Christ we have been adopted as sons and daughters of God.

And so adoption is something that is very central to the New Testament perspective, but it is something that because of Surah 33 is not central to the proclamation of the

Qur 'an. That is a contrast between us. We had a discussion of fad dieting.

Well, Roberts tells you to put your knife to your throat if you want given to gluttony. That would be something that would be good for a lot of folks.

In regards to alcohol, drugs, and gambling, we all know that these are issues in all cultures, whether they are cultures that have abandoned a

Christian background, or cultures that are predominated by Islam. These simply point us to the fact that there is in reality sin, and the problem of sin is universal.

It doesn't matter what language you speak. It doesn't matter what culture you are born in. It doesn't matter what clothing you wear.

The problem is in the heart. We are all created in the image of God, men and women.

And since we are created in the image of God and we have been separated from Him, that's the problem that has to be addressed.

Let me make sure that we all understand something here. What if you have someone who is outwardly squeaky clean?

Someone who is in great physical shape. They do not use alcohol. They do not abuse drugs.

They do not engage in gambling. They have not committed adultery. All of these things, they are fair in their business treatments.

All of those things. The danger is that such a person will think, well,

I must be right with God. The Christian message is that person is not right with God.

That person may indeed be very proud of their external moral accomplishments.

But the fact of the matter is that this really, I think, folks, is what's most important for me, is the

Christian message is that we have to deal with an absolutely holy

God. In Isaiah chapter 6, Isaiah, one of the holiest men of the nation of Israel, has a vision of Yahweh, Jehovah, sitting upon His throne.

And when Isaiah, who is a prophet, a holy man, wasn't involved in abortion, adultery, any of these other things, when that holy man saw

God sitting upon His throne, what was his response? What was his response? Well, I'm awful glad I've kept my nose clean.

I'm awful glad that I'm a holy man. I'm not like all those other Israelites. That was not his response, was it?

I would encourage you to read the 6th chapter of the book of Isaiah. And there you will see his response.

He doesn't compare himself to other people. He doesn't say, I'm glad I've got it right. His response is, woe is me, for I am undone.

I am a man of unclean lips, and I live amongst a people of unclean lips.

He even knew that the very words that he as a prophet had spoken, that he did not speak with purity.

He recognized his own sin when? When he saw the holy

God. And that is what I can only pray for each one of you in this room this day.

Is that God, by His grace, would grant you an interview like He granted

Job long ago. Remember Job? All the things that happened to me? An upright and righteous man.

Everything that Mr. Kunda went through. Job was flameless. And yet when he met

God, what did God say? Where were you when I founded the earth?

Who are you to question my goodness? And after God goes through all these things demonstrating

His sovereignty, His holiness, and Job's createdness, what does

Job do? Does Job say, oh, but I'm a righteous man? No. Look at the text.

He placed his hand over his mouth. He said, I have spoken presumptuously.

Only God, by His grace, can reveal to any one of us our creatureliness and our sin before Him.

And when the Holy Spirit of God opens a person's heart and mind to understand our true relationship to Him, only then will that person know

I need a perfect Savior. I cannot do it of myself.

I can engage in moral reformation of a certain level, but I remain impure.

I need a perfect righteousness. And the Christian message is not that, well, once you're a

Christian, you can just go and do whatever you want to do. The Christian message is that God, in His grace, raises us to spiritual life.

In the doctrine it's called justification by faith. My sin is imputed to Christ.

He bears it in His body upon the tree. His perfect righteousness, which includes all that He did in obedience to God.

What's the greatest commandment? Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength. Who in here has ever done it?

Not a lot of us. So how can I ever stand before a holy God? Christ did it.

And His righteousness, then, is imputed to me. So when I stand before that holy

God, I stand in nothing that I've done of myself, but I stand fully clothed in the righteousness of Jesus Christ, who took my place.

My sin is imputed to Him. His righteousness is imputed to me. That is how I can have peace with God.

Not because of anything in myself. How then shall I live in light of that? Shall I then go out and show hatred to the one who loved me so?

Shall I go out and abuse this position that is mine? Surely not. There were many who accused the early

Christians of that. The Apostle Paul responded, Shall we continue in sin, that grace may increase?

May it never be. How shall we who die to sin still live? And so there is a radical message to Christianity.

But my friends, this message transcends all cultural boundaries.

It does not require us to turn other cultures into our culture. It does not require us to use a particular language.

This is a message for all the world. And since we're talking about which is a guidance for light in mankind, then

I think it's important that we point out that the Christian becomes a Christian by confession of faith in Christ in any language.

To become a Muslim, how do you have to become a Muslim? What is the mechanism? You see, these are issues that we must think about today.

The Gospel is for every culture and every language. For socialists, those in the democratic society, communists, monarchies, it doesn't matter.

The Gospel is for all people because all people have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

That's why they need the message of a Savior who saves. Thank you very much. Thank you very much for that,

Dr. Weill. I'll put some chicken scratch here to some of the points that you made that I'd like to very briefly touch on.

First, very quickly, you quoted a passage from the Epistle to the Hebrews as part of representing the majesty of Christ and the message of Christian salvation as being a light to mankind.

I certainly wouldn't dispute that there are many passages within the Christian scriptures that present this sort of message.

But one phrase that you glossed over in that epistle is, last days.

Indeed, the writer of that epistle was saying, and we are living in these last days. What did he mean by that?

If we read in the Gospel according to Matthew or the Gospel according to Mark, Matthew 24, 34,

Jesus is saying that all of these signs will come to pass before this generation expires in both

Gospels there. So what he's saying is that this is all going to happen very, very quickly, before this generation comes to pass.

So let's say that when Jesus said that he would have been reported to have said that somewhere around about 30, 35

CE. Let's say there was a child born that was one year old and perhaps lived till 110 and lived to 145

CE, something around about that time. None of these things came to pass. The reason why the

Christian message in itself is so devoid of specific guidance about specific issues is because the people expected that time was going to end very quickly.

So while I'd agree that perhaps it is a message that covers a range of cultures and indeed the earliest texts are written in Greek, they get into Latin and a myriad of other languages and perhaps there were some things written in Aramaic as well to begin with.

It doesn't cover all times and the message itself says this. What else did you cover?

First of all, speaking about the majesty and that sort of thing, he kept speaking about this, the light of God, the light of the message and quoted from the book of Revelation, what light, what message?

He spoke about abortion and the New Testament answer to the abortion issue but he then quoted a reference from the

Old Testament. Are we going to observe all the Old Testament laws? If we do that, then we'll basically be in almost perfect agreement.

What else happened? Well, first of all, as I was saying in my presentation, the message of atonement in the

Qur 'an is fundamentally different. It's not the Christian message which is accept this perfect sacrifice because indeed if the sacrifice is perfect, then

I don't need any more atonement. The whole point is I don't necessarily need to be good by actions once I've accepted a perfect sacrifice if we're going to understand sacrifice by atonement.

What's the Qur 'anic message? It's make this world a better place and prepare for the next life.

Don't just leave the responsibility onto someone else. The responsibility is on you. Give charity to the poor.

Look after the orphans and indeed we speak about adoption and certainly orphans in the Qur 'an and caring for orphans.

It's very very important that the message is fundamentally different. Not just accepting the sacrifice of another individual and resting on my laurels.

I didn't say necessarily do bad but resting on my laurels. The Qur 'an says you make it better and you can make it better in a way that you can.

I'm not saying you have to be God. I'm not saying you have to be a prophet. I'm not saying you have to be a scholar. But you do whatever you can to make this world a better place and follow this guidance.

And I spoke about some of the specifics of that. You also said however and quoted again an epistle from Paul that the book of law is a curse.

And again as I said you quoted in terms of abortion a quote from the law, a quote from the Torah. What's happening there?

Is it a curse or is it something that we can actually institute in our daily lives? It doesn't, I'm sorry, just to me it doesn't make sense.

In terms of the Psalms I was quite interested to see that you actually used the translation of the King James Bible speaking about piercing my hands and feet.

Look, even someone with a rudimentary understanding of Hebrew knows that this is an incorrect translation.

It's almost certainly an intentional incorrect translation. The misappropriation of the word kiadi which means like a lion to kari which means piercing.

It's completely different and I was astounded that you actually used that quote, particularly the word, given the work that you've done on the

King James text and translation. Certainly what is the message of Christianity?

What is this glorious message that you kept referring to in your presentation? Again, I'm not saying anything specific that applies to me today.

What I'm understanding is that yes, someone has taken the burden of sin for me, great. What do

I do now so I can believe it? What else can we just quickly look at?

Again, you spoke about abortion and you spoke very quickly about gambling and alcohol and drugs and how this is a demonstration that sin exists in the world.

But you haven't given me a quote from the New Testament that tells me what could guide me to avoid this sort of behaviour or anything at all from the

New Testament specifically. I agree that the fact that it exists is a proof of sin in the world.

But again, what is the message of the Quran? Not that we just accept something theologically and then forget our worldly life.

No, we need to make the world a better place. That's fundamental to the message of the

Quran. Yes, we have a soul. Yes, we need theological food and we need to focus on that as well.

But we don't focus on our soul and completely ignore our body. And we don't focus on our body and completely ignore the soul.

And I'd say that the example that you gave with Job, peace be upon him, is a perfect example because Job demonstrates that it's not just good works, it's also a good soul that makes you successful.

Right, Job demonstrated that. Yes, he did good works. And then his good soul allowed him to be patient before God.

When his own wife wasn't patient according to the Hebrew text, he was patient before God and in doing so demonstrated the absolute purity of his soul and his worldliness.

I think that probably sums up all of my intentions. I hope I wasn't too loud there.

Thank you very much everybody. We're now going to cross -examination, which will go for about 20 minutes in total.

The way it will work is that we'll have the second speaker now go first and ask the first speaker questions and this will go on for 10 minutes and then after which the roles will switch and then that will go for 10 minutes.

What, in your opinion, in one sentence, is the way for human beings to attain success in this life and in the next life?

Well, I don't know if the term success in this life is the issue. From a

Christian perspective, to be successful in this life is to know God and to be related to Him properly.

So if we can use that as the definition of success, then the Christian answer is to believe the

Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved. So it is to have the proper relationship to Him restored through faith in Jesus Christ.

That's for any culture, any people. And so in terms of faith in Jesus Christ, that is merely believing that He came,

He was God incarnate, the Son of God, part of the Trinity, that He accepted the burden of our sin and was sacrificed and raised again and now is it

Him? Is that essentially the belief? I would never use the term merely because I believe that to have saving faith in Jesus Christ requires the work of the

Holy Spirit of God. The New Testament says no one can say Iesus kurios, Jesus is Lord, outside of the work of the

Holy Spirit. So I wouldn't use merely of something that we believe is a miracle that is performed by the

Spirit of God, but the substance of what you just said, if I heard all of it, seemed to be what

I would accept as what the Spirit of God causes us to believe. And so what example would you recommend a

Christian follow up in terms of when they want to have an example to follow in terms of their day -to -day life, in terms of what sort of aspirations they should have, career, educational, etc.

How should a Christian nation govern? I mean, in very simple terms, what are some of the basic policies and examples that could be followed?

Well, it's interesting that you said that the New Testament is, I was trying to write down what it was,

I didn't get to it, but was very vague and lacking clear, I think you said guidance or direction,

I didn't get a chance to write it down, I apologize. But I found that interesting because it sounds like from your perspective that what you believe is you have to have a single model that then will be applied to every single culture that it encounters.

The Christian perspective is the Spirit of God applies His truth to our lives and that therefore

He makes us the best Chinese Christian we can be or the best Australian or American Christian, whatever else it might be, and that part of our growing and presenting to God a heart of wisdom is applying

His truth all across the spectrum of our lives, which includes, especially in a place like this, the choice of one's calling as far as one's secular employment, the choice of one's mate, whether one will look to make oneself the most important focus of one's life or whether one will serve others.

These are all things that we are called under the guidance of the Spirit of God through the

Word of God to apply to our individual lives. It's not looking to one particular example outside of Jesus that would be, shall we say, culturally defined or limited.

I'm very glad you answered it that way because I would profoundly agree with some of what you said.

And I guess the next question that I'd ask would then be why would it be problematic for, say, a

Roman Catholic to idolise Mary or why would it be problematic for, say,

Hindus to worship in the manner that you say they should if we're merely applying the

Christian message which is, as you said, the acceptance of the sacrifice of Christ across all cultures and don't have a specific example in terms of how to behave, how to worship, etc.

No specific model to go by. Is it then not appropriate that different Christians can worship in different ways and ultimately the only issue is whether Christ died for our sins or not?

Well, I didn't say that we didn't have a clear revelation from God. I said that you were asking about application of that revelation across geographical and cultural boundaries.

Now you're talking about theological issues. And the scriptures are very clear, and I've engaged this debate in a number of different instances in regards to the worship of God, the fact that God alone is to be worshipped, that he is the one who defines his worship, that we are not to pray to, which is an act of worship, by the way, or engage in the worship of anyone other than the one true

God, which is why we are so insistent upon the deity of Christ, which is one of the major differences between us.

So there's a difference between saying that we have freedom in the application of those areas where there is not a dogmatic revelation from God and saying that God has not given us anything that is absolutely knowable at all.

There's obviously those areas that God has given clear revelation on, and that there are those areas where there is freedom and where we apply

God's truth in our lives, but you have to allow the word of God to define those things. And of course,

I take all of the word of God, not just portions of the word of God, and seek to honor his word in that way.

And so therefore, I mean, just to explain, because again, I've kind of said it a couple of times, from a

Muslim perspective, everything is physical and spiritual. There's a lot of separation in terms of humanity while we're in the reality of this life between the two, per se.

So when we pray, we have a very specific indication of how to pray within the

Qur 'an, and not only that, but it's obvious that we don't exceed the limits in what's specifically indicated.

Is there something within the New Testament or within the sayings of Jesus or the epistles that indicates how one should pray specifically, how one should worship specifically?

I mean, could we get to a situation, say, where even amongst a specific subset of Christianity, all

Protestant Christians prayed in precisely the same manner, such that, say, you could facilitate a prayer meeting in exactly the same way as another

Protestant Christian would? Well, I've traveled around the world now, and first time down here, and I have tremendous fellowship with my fellow believers.

Last evening, I was speaking on the existence of God at an Anglican church, I'm a Reformed Baptist, and so there are numerous areas where we have unity in the proclamation of the gospel, but we don't think that that unity takes the form of the specific places where you place your hands, the specific time that you pray, how many times that you pray during the day.

We believe that a person's relationship with God transcends mere external things.

You can have external prayers that are very meaningful, but the fact of the matter is, and I would imagine you would agree with this, there's a tremendous amount of nominalism in Muslim countries as well, that is, people who go through the motions, but there's no inner reality that reflects the outer experience.

And so we don't think that the external aspect of it defines the internal aspect of it.

And so when you speak of prayers, yes, who is being prayed to, why

I have peace with God, why I can even approach a holy God and not be concerned that his wrath is going to break out upon me for my sin, all of those things are foundational to what a

Christian would understand as meaningful and true prayer, and they would be cross -culturally applicable.

They wouldn't require the same dress or the same mode of prayer, but the objects of the prayer and the basis of it would be the same across any cultural line.

I certainly, to let you know, I absolutely agree with what you said, that there is a great amount of nominalism, and just quickly again, as I said, it's very important, and even for answers, is that there must be a combination of not only the physical action, the worldly action, but also the spiritual connection with God, the theological aspect.

Just one last question, and that is kind of a repetitive question that I asked before. How would a Christian government using the

New Testament as a text care for, say, people that have lost their homes as a result of the financial crisis?

I mean, what would be the fundamental text for a Christian government, and how can it be implemented? Well, I struggle with the term

Christian government because I don't believe that there's anything in the New Testament that told the apostles and early

Christians to go make Rome a Christian nation. It wasn't, obviously. It was a pagan nation. And what happened in 380 with Theodosius and the eventual proclamation of Rome as a

Christian empire did not change anyone's hearts and in many ways damaged the

Christian faith. So, if there was a government where God blessed to where a majority of people were

Christians even within the society itself, then the New Testament is replete with repeated commands to the church to take care of widows and orphans.

That was the church's job. I don't think it's the government's job. I think it's the government's job to get out of the way of the church.

But when the government's confiscating our income at such a high rate that we can't hardly give to the church, then that becomes a problem.

And so, obviously, if there was such a thing as a quote -unquote Christian government, then that Christian government would have to act in concert with what is found in the

New Testament on those issues. Thank you very much. I just want to quickly ask, the people at the back, can we hear what

Dr. James is saying? He is. I'm just so soft -spoken.

Are we ready to start? All right.

Just a couple things quickly here. You indicated that you seem to believe that the last days in the

New Testament is somehow contradictory to what I was referring to. And you went to Matthew chapter 24, this generation.

Are you not familiar with the viewpoint of a large number of Christian believers that the immediate fulfillment of much of Matthew 24 was in the destruction of Jerusalem, which would have been within that generation?

Yes, certainly. I mean, this is one viewpoint. As I said, the epistle that you quoted, the epistle to the

Hebrews, makes it quite clear that the writer is under the impression that the last days are occurring, i .e.

at the ends of time. And obviously that's spoken about in the prophets in the Hebrews. And the end of time is quite clear because if we don't focus on an issue like the end of time, then therefore me delivering laws about how to care for people, look after people, social laws, etc.,

are kind of irrelevant. Really, if I thought that tomorrow was going to be Judgment Day, I would be rushing to make sure that my theological side was right before my physical side.

So, I mean, the point that I guess I was getting at is that in terms of you having that belief that the last days, the end of time, you know, this is completely the end, not just the end of the temple, but completely the end, which was the implication given by the prophets, it removes that aspect and that focus on this world demise, which we're expecting it's going to be.

So why would the writer of the Hebrews then, in the end of his epistle, give the very kind of moral how -to -live -your -life exhortations if he understood last days the way you understand last days?

Well, again, what moral is, you kind of think that's sort of the theological stuff. I mean, it's not something that's specific.

It's not saying this is how you should conduct business, this is how you should conduct education, you should make sure that everyone learns how to read, you should make sure that everyone learns how to write.

I mean, these are things that are blatantly presented in the Quran. Something moral like have a good heart, be kind, and open up your heart to God, that would be in the box of theological stuff, which is purely the spiritual side.

You said that, I said, the book of the law is a curse. When? Oh, no, sorry.

Did you misspeak there? You quoted from Galatians 3. That's right. Yeah, where Paul says that Christ has removed the curse of the law by becoming a curse himself.

And so really what I was getting at there is, well, if the law is a curse, then what's the relevance of quoting an

Old Testament law in the response to where's the guidance on the issue?

Do you see the difference between saying the Old Testament law is a curse, which Paul didn't say, and saying that the

Old Testament law, because of its perfect morality, brings a curse upon sinners? Do you see there's a difference between those two statements?

Absolutely there's a difference. And I think, again, we could debate on the semantics, but I think the specifics are given quite clearly in the way that it then says and Christ became a curse in order to remove that.

You know, the manner in which he died was a way that, you know, purported to have died, was a manner in which only cursed people, you know, were supposed to have died.

So the implication here on what is, you know, the nature of the curse is blatant.

It's obvious. And I'd ask that, you know, if you think that that's not the case, or perhaps afterwards we can sit down and have a chat, but for me it's quite obvious that if Christ became a curse in being crucified, and for those that don't know, crucifixion was deemed to be a cursed manner of death, if curse is understood in that context, and in the words preceding we apply that same context to the law, it means quite clearly that the law itself is a curse.

So, if you take that interpretation, then you ask, are we to observe all the

Old Testament laws? Do you... See, I'm not sure what kind of Christians you've had interactions with.

So, are you aware of how Christians view the fulfillment of ceremonial law and prophetic law in the sense of fulfilling

Christ, but that the moral law, such as I mentioned earlier, the widows and orphans and caring for the poor, remain valid and are really applied to how all

Christians and all nations are to approach their cultural mandate? I don't think that what you just said is certainly the majority

Christian perspective, and I absolutely don't want to say that it's not. What I was nearly saying is that, do we say that the law is a cursed incompletion, or do we chop and change and choose from the law?

You know, the earlier assertion that I was trying to make is that you'd specifically chosen a verse from the law, and I was asking, well, then, if you choose that one, then why don't you choose the law?

I know obviously what the Christian perspective is. It's just more of a challenge, I guess, to say, well, why is this one group at the other one's side?

In terms of ceremonial and ritual law, well, again, if we look at the texts of the Torah, the

Pentateuch, it's quite obvious that ceremonial law is intertwined with what you refer to as moral law or individual practice.

So to separate the two is quite a bold move in terms of Christians. I think that either you're accepting that the law itself is a curse, or you're accepting that the law is the law.

That's my personal interpretation of it. Could you explain, in light of Surah 547, how a member of the

Al -Kitab and Al -Anjil in the days of Muhammad could have fulfilled the command of Surah 547 if they did not possess the

Anjil upon which to make judgment? Certainly. Remember that God never says in the

Qur 'an that it was completely removed from him, the Anjil or the Gospel or the revelation that was given to Jesus.

He says that it becomes distorted. So I'll just ask very quickly in response to that, what does

Jesus say is the greatest commandment when he's asked by a member of the public?

Love the Lord your God and the second is... So he basically quotes the Shema, which is, here over Israel, the

Lord is your God, the Lord is one. And so, quite simply there, even in the Gospels as we have them presented today, there's a reference there,

Jesus saying, this is the most important commandment, that the Lord is your God, the Lord is one.

And that's quite it because that's the message of the Qur 'an, that's the message of all of the

Prophets overall. You know, just like the quote that you put forward from Isaiah, speaking about, you know, in some interpretations,

I'm a Christian one, but in some interpretations it's speaking about the people of Israel as a whole and the suffering that they endure.

But overall, the message is always that there's one God and that's been retained at least in a saying attributed to Jesus.

So, since you just made reference to that and you had brought that up, how did the people of Israel bear the sins of others?

Well, again, this is more of a Jewish theological issue. I don't know if it's certainly relevant to the topic of the debate, but essentially, as I'm sure you'll agree with, first of all, the concept is that God gave the

Torah to his chosen people, to the Israelites. And again, this is something that's quoted in the Quran. And the people accepted that law and were unlike all other nations around them at the time.

You know, they were the only Protestant nation, etc. And so they were bearing the burden of the other nations when those from among them started copying them.

So when people started worshipping other gods, going to other gods, you know, assimilating Assyrian culture,

Babylonian culture, Persian culture, this is spoken about in many, many references throughout the Old Testament. And even on basic and fundamental issues, like when the prophet

Daniel is speaking about eating only vegetables and not eating, you know, the food that's found in the court of the king.

You know, the whole point here is that those that then copied the other nations brought the sin of those nations upon the entire nation of Israel, and therefore then they suffered as a result of incurring that sin.

And again, this is something that's spoken about in the Quran when the Quran says that the children of Israel did this or did that, killed the prophets or turned to the way of the people around them, and they were then punished.

I see. Do you think that's a far out interpretation? Well, we could discuss it, but cross examinations for clarification.

Why did you think I was quoting from the King James Version of the Bible since I was quoting from the New American Standard? Well, if that's the translation of the

New American Standard, and the ESV and the New American Standard and the NRSV and a number of others. I don't think it's the NRSV, but I'll put the

NRSV in front of me because I'm aware, as I'm sure you are, of that mistranslation, and it's often cited as a theological mistranslation.

Yeah, and you're not aware of the massive amount of counter -argumentation from non -Jewish sources that would defend that translation?

And you sort of basically said, well, I'm just shocked, and yet there are scrawling commentaries written by people who know

Hebrew far better than you and I combined that take that perspective. how do you respond to that?

Well, I guess, first of all, I'll just answer that question very quickly. Yes. First of all, I'm predominantly

Christian. Secondly, I'd say we bring forward the Masoretic text, bring forward what's left from the

Quran, et cetera, and we'll look at what the text actually says, and it's quite clear as far as I'm aware from what

I've read, but I'm not saying that I have read everything that the translation is wrong.

Thank you. We'll now have a question and answer session.

We'll be having closing remarks by each speaker, and they'll be going for about two and a half minutes.

In other words, they will be brief. You will be thankful that I'm serving. Thank you very much for your attention this afternoon.

I am very excited to have the opportunity of being here and engaging these subjects. Obviously, there is so much that we could be discussing.

I would like to hope that the fact that we've been able to do this in an air of mutual respect might open the possibility for future encounters on more specific subjects, possibly on those texts.

I mean, we could go into the Hebrew and do things like that. We can go into Masoretic text. We can go into prophecies.

We can go into the subject of the transmission of the Quran, the transmission of the text of the New Testament. These are important issues.

I think what we've been able to do here, at least, has been to demonstrate that they can be addressed and that they need to be addressed.

Folks, there is so much tension that exists in the world between our communities, and so much of it would be dissipated if we would just talk.

There is such a fear in Western society of debating. Oh, that's a terrible, horrible thing. Why? If you believe something is true, and you respect other people, why can't you debate it?

Why can't you discuss your differences? People who are not allowed to argue will only be allowed to fight.

And so we must allow these things to happen. I know that in so much of the university setting today, this is politically incorrect.

Well, I say to you, political correctness isn't always truthful. And so I'm thankful we've had the opportunity of addressing these things.

I think I've presented to you a reason why you should believe that the Christian message is for all people, that it transcends cultural and linguistic boundaries, that the earliest message of the

Christians themselves was very clear, that this gospel is to go out into all the world. It is for every tribe, tongue, and people, and nation.

And so, when we talk about what is guidance and light, the question is, what is most important to guide people in?

Is it to give them very specific things, where how you wash your hands and how many times you pray?

Or can God give guidance by changing the heart and by causing your understanding to be enlightened so that you see how

God's truth applies to every single culture in every single situation? That, I think, is the most important issue we can take away from here today.

Thank you very much for being with us. First of all,

I'd like to thank Dr. White for being here today. For those of you who don't know, he actually flew in from the United States.

Was it Sunday morning? What day is it? So, he's made quite a journey to be here.

I know that he's not here just specifically for this, but the fact that he's here today really does deserve commendation and he should be applauded for that.

And I agree with almost everything that he just said in his closing statement that certainly we need to be able to discuss these things more.

We need to be able to be open and frank, but at the same time we must maintain an aura of respect.

It's no good if I'm going to yell, if others are going to yell, if we're going to get overly emotional, etc. Of course, it's an emotional topic, but part of being a believer of your religion or my religion is that we can overcome that human emotion to present the divine message.

It's very, very important. To sit and listen. Yeah, to sit and listen. Yeah, that's right. Very important.

Thank you very much. I'd just like to say to the Christians in the room, and I can say this with absolute certainty, aside from those from your own specific group, or I group all

Protestant denominations together just for simplicity, you'll never find a better friend than a Muslim. Nowhere throughout history were we burning you at the stake because you wouldn't worship the

Statue of Mary. You'll never find a better friend, other than those from among yourselves, than a

Muslim. And guaranteed we'll protect you as much as we possibly can. However, having said that, it's your job, just like it's my job, to look at the evidence that's been presented today, and it's presented in the

Quran and presented in the New Testament, and come up with your own decision as an individual. Alright?

It wouldn't be fair if I just painted all this stuff and didn't tell you that ultimately, you and I are both going to be judged.

And we're going to be judged according to the same God, whether it's yours or whether it's mine. And it's very important that you make the right decision.

And that's why, yes, I agree with Dr White that it's absolutely essential that God changes the hearts of people. But in order for God to be just and be fair to humanity,

He must give them something that they can look at and assess for themselves in a language that they understand, in wording that they understand, in a way that is relevant to them in their day -to -day lives, in order for them to truly be able to assess, well, this is the true message and this isn't.

And it's as simple as that. So please, look inside yourselves. Thank you.

I'm late for this evening. So it's question and answer time.

We've got about 15 minutes, around 15 minutes.

We'll try to go through as much as possible like we said before. What we might do is just very quickly go through and sort them into who they're addressed to.

You can get through one hour.

Okay, so the way it works is

I'll read out the questions and the person that it's addressed to will give a one -minute response or one -minute answer and the other person will give a 30 -second comment.

So, Dr. James White, you have implied that the New Testament does not adorn a

Christian government, given that governance is a natural part of human societies.

Is this not proof that the New Testament does not provide guidance to fundamental human matters?

Thank you. No, it is proof that the Christian message is for all people no matter what their situation is and what government they happen to live under.

Jesus did not tell the apostles to go out and overthrow the Roman Empire. You don't have to be a revolutionary to be a

Christian. Now, Christianity has often sparked that because when Christianity takes root and begins to change the hearts and minds of people, then if there are things that that government is doing that are specifically opposed to that Christian message, then that has often resulted in a change in that government.

But the reality is that Christianity is not a political system. And I think most people would admit there is a strong political element to the

Islamic religion and you can't separate the two apart. But in Christianity, you have to be able to do so because of the very point that I'm making and that is it is a message for all people across all cultural and geographical boundaries and all time boundaries.

And just in terms of a quick response to that, yes, I absolutely agree that the Christian message is not very political at all.

And that's a stark contrast to the Islamic message which predominantly, again, as I've said many times, is emphasizing the dual nature of man, his spirit and his body.

The fact that, obviously, humanity needs to get by in this life doing what normal people do, what everybody does.

If we haven't got a guide, if we haven't got a set of rules in order to do that, then what's the point of life?

If we haven't got some rules we can follow in day -to -day life, then what's the point of life? Why do

Muslims deny adoption but allow freedom? Historically, how is this a good guide to family life?

This is probably perhaps a misunderstanding of the quote in Surah 33. Islam doesn't deny adoption.

What the Qur 'an emphasizes is that when children are adopted, it's important and in fact it's integral in Islamic law that children know who their real parents are.

So they're not adopted and, oh, you're now my son, you're my daughter, in the true sense. Yes, I adopt you,

I pay for you, I treat you exactly like you are my son, but I'm never going to say to you, I am your father, I'm your guardian,

I'm not your father, your father is whoever. And this is extremely important because even up until recently, it was very difficult for those who were adopted to find out about their true parents, and this causes a lot of personality disorders and can cause depression and stress, anxiety, et cetera.

So hearing before Anne is removing that issue, I'll just quickly touch on the issue very quickly.

That's it, sorry. In 30 seconds,

I think the difference in the practice of adoption in Christian countries and Islamic countries is stark, and it does go back to the situation with Zainab bin

Jash. We don't have time in 30 seconds to even begin there, but I would encourage you to look at that and ask yourself a question.

If we're looking for guidance, how can Allah give that text which says that Muhammad do this so that you have guidance for how to deal with your divorced spouses of your adopted children when you're then going to do away with that form of adoption?

To Dr. James White, how can we take the Bible to be a guide to humanity when people don't even agree on what the

Bible is? That is, it's different versions as opposed to the Qur 'an which has no other versions and is still in its original form.

Well, there's lots we can say about that. What do you mean by different versions? There's all sorts of different versions of the Qur 'an.

They are translations. You're saying, well, there's just the one Arabic Qur 'an. Well, okay, we also have the

Hebrew Testament, the Greek Septuagint, the Greek translation, the Greek version of the New Testament. It sounds like the person is saying, well, see, we have the

Uthmanic revision. That's a very interesting statement to make.

Don't you realize that to make that the deciding factor, you have to believe that Uthman got it exactly right?

How do you know that? It was interesting that Abdullah admitted that there are variants in various of the ancient texts, and that they were dealt with early on.

Who dealt with them? You see, you have to trust that whoever dealt with them got it right, but if Muhammad was the last prophet, then you don't have a prophet who's dealing with those textual issues.

It raises all sorts of questions that we don't have time to discuss in detail. But I do think that the definition of the

Quran is very clear. I think that the

Quran is a very clear version of the

Bible. It textual evidence demonstrates that we can certainly date this

Qur 'an back to pre -Urthmanic times, and, uh, yeah, thank you. That's all

I've got left. The Holy Qur 'an encourages Muslims about jihad.

Does that mean what so -called terrorists are doing are correct according to the

Holy Qur 'an? Thank you. This is a very evasive topic.

You know, there's a saying, one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. But I'm not really going to go into that.

I'll say ultimately anyone that kills an innocent person is committing a blatant sin in the

Qur 'an. The Qur 'an unequivocally says if you kill one innocent person it's as if you killed all of humanity.

That's blatantly clear. This is not a spin or some translation that I'm giving.

It's blatant. So if someone, in short, if someone kills an innocent person, they're committing a major, major sin in Islam.

It's as simple as that. Well, I can't say anything meaningful in 30 seconds.

I would just simply ask one question. And that is I have had Muslims tell me that because of the mithaq, because of the covenant that was taken with all the children,

Adam, that we are all born Muslims. And if we don't stay Muslims then we're apostates and therefore there is no innocent non -Muslim.

How does a Muslim consistently and Qur 'anically respond to that in light of what Abdullah just said?

I'd like to know the answer to that because it's very, very important. To Dr. James White, how can you confirm the

Bible is a true word of God? Well, you know, the irony at this point is that I'm not sure the

Muslim is in a good spot here to question that. For a couple of reasons. First of all, the text that I cited,

I didn't get a chance, cross -examination isn't a time to argue these points. But if the Qur 'an says that, for example, the people of the book find

Muhammad's name in their scriptures, then they had to still have their scriptures at the time of Muhammad. We know what scriptures they had.

We know the scriptures even before that. We can verify the text. And so we go back to Jesus and Jesus argued from the

Old Testament text as if it was perfectly inspired. And you'll never find any arguments from him with any of the

Jews saying, oh, I didn't know that was scripture. Or, oh, you've changed that or anything of the kind. So when you ask the question, how can you know that?

I would point you to Jesus, who testifies that God had preserved the scripture that he gave, which the

Qur 'an says he gave. And the same thing with the with the Injil. It's a slight emphasis on one aspect of the

Qur 'an. It's not really there. But although some exegetes would agree with what you're saying. Very quickly, in terms of the Bible, it's got a very, very large amount of variance even existing today.

I'd encourage the Christians here in the audience to take a look at their Bibles in the Gospel of Mark. Take a look at how it ends.

It ends in three different ways in the manuscript tradition. So if we're going to talk about the true word of God and you want to read a book that God wrote, don't you want to be certain about what he said?

Doesn't it make sense that you really want to know what God said? You know, that's what I'd say. You can't even give me a guarantee of how that ends.

Mr. Goodley, you encourage believers to do what they can in this life. Not to rest on one's laurels.

Not that they are God, but they strive to do what good they can. How much good is enough to secure the believer's salvation?

Can you be certain that God will accept you under Quran's message? Well, this is a theological question that's been debated by Muslim theologians for a long time.

I guess in short I'd say that there isn't some cap of specific good deeds that's necessarily going to get me into heaven or hell.

You know, that's a fact. I might do something horribly, horribly bad and never be able to atone for it properly.

Having said that, what God does say in the Quran in a number of passages is

And also, you know, there's prescriptions in how to atone in the Quran. I'm not just accepting an idea, but I'm actually doing good actions in order to achieve that end.

So can I guarantee that I'll be going to heaven from the Islamic message? Not necessarily. But at least

I know that I'm attempting to do the right thing. And any just God in that regard, you know,

I'll leave the conclusion up to you, sir. The Christian standing before God is found in Jesus Christ and my acceptance of Him.

When I embrace Jesus Christ, I embrace His righteousness in place of my sinfulness.

And so my acceptance before God is the acceptance of the perfect Messiah who submitted to God in all things.

I do what I do as a result of the love that I have for the one who gave himself for me.

Christianity is love -based and motivated in that way. Dr.

White, there are many passages in the New Testament with numerous principles for living.

How are these connected with the message of Jesus' atoning sacrifice that you have been speaking of?

Example Matthew 5 -7, Romans 12, Colossians 3.

Which allows me to finish the thought I was just making. Thank you very much. Why do we do what we do?

One of them that was mentioned there is Romans chapter 12. Having gone through what the gospel was and what

God has done in Jesus Christ, then Paul says, This is what God has done. Now this is how you should engage in your spiritual service of worship.

If your entire life has been purchased by God, if you have died with Christ and been resurrected with Him, if the law's wrath has been fulfilled in Christ in your place, how then shall you live?

You are to live as servants of God. No longer looking out for yourself, but looking out for what

God would have you do as His servants. As servants of Jesus Christ, the highest calling. And that's what

I meant. This is a love -motivated faith. We do what we do, not to gain something from God, but because we love

Him for what He has done for us in Jesus Christ. Well, again, look,

I guess this coming viewpoint is totally different. It's not just accepting a message.

It's not just appealing to the spiritual side. It's actually dealing with the physical side of myself as well. And indeed, as I said, the main focus of that message is that human beings are both soul and body, not just one or the other.

So it's very important that we focus on that. This world is a physical place. It's not heaven. It's not a holy place.

We need to have some sort of physical guideline and action in order to have an impact on the world.

We'll wrap up the question and answer now. For those that did not get their questions answered,

I'm sure James and my brother will be outside, and you can discuss with them. We hope you enjoyed today's special event, and most importantly, learn a lot from both sides.

And go away from this lecture, the sooner the better. For those out there in the audience who believe neither is particularly correct or needed, well then perhaps that may be a subject for future discussions and lectures to come.

On behalf of SUMSA, we'd like to thank both our speakers, Dr. James White and Abdullah Tundi, especially

Dr. James White, who arrived early yesterday from the States to be with us here today. Our Islamic Awareness Week events will continue on Tuesday and Wednesday with a lecture on the

Islamic economics system tomorrow. For more information, you can visit our store just outside. Thank you very much.