Pastors' Panel Podcast- Perseverance of the Saints

Good evening, welcome to the Pastors Panel Podcast. We're so thankful that you could join us and we're happy to be with you.

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So we're thankful. I'm getting some coffee from my wonderful wife.

Thank you, honey. So what mug are you drinking from tonight?

It's yet to be seen. It's yet to be seen. Maybe we'll come up with a good coffee mug theme tonight.

What was the first one? The Armenian coffee mug?

The Trinitarian coffee mug? And the synergistic coffee mug.

That was last week, I believe. So maybe we'll come up with a good one tonight.

Let's see. Tonight, we are going to finish up TULIP tonight. We've looked at total depravity, unconditional election, limited atonement, irresistible grace, and what

TULIP is, is just an easy way to help us remember the doctrines of grace. And tonight is

P, which is perseverance of the saints. And I'm thankful for the insights and the input that these guys have had,

Dan and Claude. And tonight is going to be no different, I'm sure. We've got two more in March.

We're going to look at next week, the sufficiency of scripture. And then the following week,

I want us to look at how to know we're saved. And there's a good test that we can look at in 1

John, how to know that we are saved. And I hope you will share the video and be with us yourself.

And we love any input that you have and any questions that you have. Is the music too loud for you guys?

Is it okay? How do you feel about it? Did I get caught dancing in Baba New Even?

I didn't know if it was too distracting for you guys.

You okay? I was enjoying it. Okay. It's nice. Fantastic.

I'll leave it the way it is. I think it'd be good. I'm not jacked up on Krispy Kreme Donuts or endorphins, so I'll probably fall out here shortly.

So, by the way, for your audience, Rob's jacked up on Krispy Kreme Donuts for his daughter's birthday.

Dan is jacked up on endorphins from going to the gym. And now caffeine, we're in trouble.

Oh, so let's jump into this perseverance of the saints. But if you want to know what we're talking about, to get more help in understanding what we're talking about,

I would encourage you to go back and look at the videos. We started with Sovereignty of God. And then, like I said,

Total Depravity, Unconditional Election, Limited Atonement, Irresistible Grace. And I'd encourage you to look at those again and share them if you would like to.

We would really appreciate it. So, Perseverance of the

Saints. What's a good definition? Help us understand what

Perseverance of the Saints means. And anybody can start off.

Well, Perseverance of the Saints, really, it's helpful to define that one and another word that starts with a

P, Preservation. Both together helps you see kind of a couple angles of it.

Perseverance of the Saints means that the saints, those who run back through the acrostic, through TULIP, those who

Christ has chosen, died for, called to himself, those will continue in their faith until the end of their life or until Christ returns to call them home.

So, they will persevere in their faith. Another way of looking at that is from the other direction.

The Preservation of the Saints being, you know, since all the other letters, except for T, we kind of did that one.

All the other letters had to do with God doing something. God electing, God providing atonement,

God calling. Then God will preserve his people until the day of judgment, where they'll pass through the judgment unscathed, as well as those who are hidden in Christ.

Their sins will be completely done away with once and for all, even though they've already been forgiven.

Now, they'll be completely separated from their sin forever on the coming judgment. So, if you look at it that way, those who are saved truly will continue to be, because their faith will not falter, and that all happens because God is preserving his people until that final judgment, where he will finally, fully, completely separate them from their sin forever.

Amen. Right. And I'm really glad that you emphasized and included the fact that this is

God persevering his saints. It would just take us in a totally different direction than where we were with T, U, L, and I.

Well, we got there in a whole row. So, yeah, that's absolutely right.

It's all of God. It's all for his glory. And that's, of course, why we started off, you know, the acronym is

TULIP begins with a T, but we started with the sovereignty of God. And that's why, because that sets us on the right path and helps us understand the rest of the doctrines of grace.

Doctrines of grace. So, this is pretty interesting.

This next question called, I grew up hearing it stated in a different way.

And there's a preference. I think there's a preference in our circles on which one we use.

And I think there's a reason why we use the terms that we do. But I grew up using a phrase, hearing a phrase, being taught a phrase that is similar to this doctrine.

Very, very similar, I think. But it's not exactly the same. So, the phrase that I heard was, once saved, always saved.

And of course, you know, that's similar. And there's truth to that.

Once God saves us, we're always saved. But why do we prefer the term perseverance of the saints over once saved, always saved?

So, I would say because of the doctrinal truth, right?

The content of the doctrine is what truly is important there. And sure, it's saying bigger words strung together.

But the idea behind once saved, always saved versus or over against perseverance of the saints or the preservation of the saints, that was a wonderful distinction that Dan made there.

That's very, very important. The distinction is this, that in the idea of once saved, always saved, it's about what the work that one person has done at some point or some time in their life.

And they're saying because they did this, that they can never be lost or never ultimately, as the doctrine says, they can never ultimately and finally fall away.

The challenge with the idea of once saved, always saved is people's basing it on a decision or something that they did at a point in time.

For example, again, common probably for all of us, you know, we've heard people,

I've got one of the elders at our church, he said, he said he don't know how many times he's been saved because he was saved at least six times in six different Bible schools as a child.

So, you know, sarcasm, of course, but that's the idea and the idea that folks have because the scriptures haven't been taught in church to the people of God as they should be, is they, they figure, well,

I prayed a prayer. I walked an aisle. I said this when I was seven, eight, nine, six, five, whatever, however old they were.

That's not, that's not pertinent. The pertinent and important truth or question to ask is, have you been born again?

So once saved, always saved is true. That once God saves you, once you're regenerated, made a new creature, you can never ultimately and finally fall away.

But just because you, you said you've been saved and then nothing has been different from that moment forward.

That's the danger of that idea. Once saved, always saved. Oh, we've got it.

We've got a new brother with us. Thank you for the comment, brother.

We appreciate it. Amen. Redemption. Hallelujah. So let me ask you guys, if you have experienced this to go along with the once saved, always saved, because I'm assuming that you all heard that growing up, that terminology.

So we're laughing at the comments. If you're watching from a different platform, we can see, we can see all the comments coming from the different platforms, but I know not everybody can.

So, all right. So the attack from those that don't believe in this doctrine, they attack this doctrine, the once saved, always saved doctrine.

And they say, you become grace abusers.

Have you ever heard that attack? So you believe that God has saved you and you can't lose your salvation.

So therefore you can sin and do whatever you want to. How do you respond to those folks? I would say, number one, we go to the scripture.

There was that, I'm looking for it right now. You all may know it right off the top of your head, but in Romans, right?

Paul actually anticipated this argument. Should I sin that grace? Because he said, you know, basically some of you are probably asking, should

I just go ahead and sin since grace is so amazing? And he said, no, God forbid, God forbid.

We should not. Eternal redemption and salvation in Jesus Christ is not a license to sin in any way, shape, form or fashion.

And so that is, like you said, that is an actual abuse of grace.

Anything to add on that, Dan? Yeah. Our camp's not the only ones who have to ask that question.

But, I mean, it's a different question, but it's kind of like the other side of the coin. Could those who believe that once you are saved, you're always saved, those who are going to be persevered or preserved by God to the end, do they have a license to sin?

Or could they think they have a license to sin and then abuse grace in the process? The question can go back the other direction.

Since you think you have a possibility of losing your salvation, do you then rely upon doing good deeds and work and preserving your own faith and therefore work your way towards salvation and abuse grace in that moment?

There are ways that we should be careful. It's absolutely true that you could say, hey,

I've been saved, so let's live it up. You know, eat, drink and be merry because tomorrow I'm going to die and then

I'll all be forgiven and it'll be okay. Paul's like, no, we're not doing that here. He also says that you can't work your way to heaven.

So, yeah, it's kind of a cheap accusation because the abuse of grace is happening for those who either neglect it in order to work their way to heaven or abuse the grace by taking it for granted.

The abuse happens from both directions. Yeah. And the abuse that happens on the taking it for granted side that you mentioned, that would be antinomianism.

Folks that are saying they say, I'm not under the law anymore. I'm under grace.

Correct. Is that where you was going on that? A hundred percent. Yeah. And the flip side is that other hundred dollar word, legalism, where you think you can do something, work something in order to merit your own salvation.

Both of them are errors. There's a middle road and the road is that God made it.

Amen. Her reconciliation was paid for in Christ Jesus, our Lord. Either way, try the antinomian approach next time you get pulled over for speeding or something.

No, officer, I cannot accept the ticket. I'm not under the law, but I'm under grace. Yeah. Becky makes a good comment here.

She says big words. And I wanted to define antinomianism. And I'm thinking to myself without law or a law unto yourself.

Is that what we're talking about when we're saying antinomianism? Anti meaning against or in opposition of.

Nomian coming from nomos in the Greek law. Yes. Ism, believing about it.

Would it be a belief that you are against or that the law no longer applies to you because of whatever reason you put in there?

Because I've been saved, so I don't have to worry about it anymore. You see it a lot where people will take the law of God and think that it doesn't apply to them for whatever reason.

I live a different time. Somehow God has changed who he is or his character, his holiness or something.

Right. Yeah. Somebody once said that the most misinterpreted page in the whole

Bible is that one between the end of Malachi and the first one in Matthew. That little page that says New Testament.

Misinterpreted page in the whole Bible. If all sorts of stuff happens on that page that you just don't know about.

That's the truth. Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. So, am

I correct in saying that Matthew 24, 13 is where we get the wording for perseverance of the saints?

Is that what you guys are familiar with? Matthew 24, 13. But the one who endures to the end shall be saved.

Yeah. Well, I can see how folks get that.

But contextually, when you read it in context, that doesn't have anything to do. That goes back to the eschatology.

Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. I know that's the... I remember that wording, the phrasing that we use.

And I saw it in Matthew 24 there. And that, like you said, it takes us back to eschatology.

And the context is those things happened and culminated in 70

AD. So, it has a similar, I guess, similar meaning.

But that part is speaking of those in Israel that will endure to the end of the age.

And Christians. And we're speaking of enduring to the end. God preserving us.

Go ahead. Phillip Brief asked, are you streaming on YouTube as well? What's the page link? Once I ask the question and let these guys answer,

I will post that link for you on YouTube. So, yes.

So, that was speaking of those enduring to the end that were Christians in Israel, Judea.

But we're talking about enduring salvifically, spiritually to the end.

And not being able to lose our salvation. So, here's some proofs.

Some proofs of this doctrine of perseverance of the saints. And the first one, Claude, if you want to start, just give me your thoughts.

And while you're giving us some thoughts, and Dan, you can jump into. No issue. I want to try to get

Phillip the link to YouTube. So, the first one is, salvation is from God.

And by God. He is able to do all he wills to do.

Or all he wants to do. So, how does that relate to this perseverance of the saints?

Salvation is from and by God. He's able to do all that he wills. I would say, going to Philippians chapter 2.

It's where I was going right before. Right before that. If you go to Philippians chapter 2 and in verse 12 and 13.

Paul talks about, you know, he gives the great hymn of praise.

Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus. But when you get down to verse 12, he says, Therefore my beloved brethren, as you have always obeyed.

So now also, not only in my presence, but much more in my absence. And then he says, work out your salvation with fear and trembling.

If we were to stop there, then certainly the onus would be on us. To maintain our salvation by our good works.

But Paul makes it clear in the next statement. He says, for it is God who works in you.

Both to will and to work for his good pleasure. I mean, he makes it plain. That this idea of persevering, you know, by our own power.

And by our own will. And by our own means. Is a foreign idea to the scripture.

For scripture, from beginning to end. Is the sovereign work of God in the lives of men.

Absolutely. So, Dan, here's the second one. The second proof that I've got on here. On our notes. God is the creator of all.

He has power over all. And is the author and finisher of our faith. How does that relate to the verses of the saints?

True. That was going straight out of Hebrews, wasn't it?

Hebrews at some point. He's the author and finisher of our faith. What it's saying is that since God is the one who said, salvation is coming.

And he said, you're going to be the beneficiary of salvation. Then he went and cried for that person.

And then used his word, either through the mouth of a preacher. Or through reading of the word. Or however the word of the gospel came to the person's ear.

And then called that person through the ear and the heart to himself. That that person will be preserved.

The faith will be started. And then it won't be rocky or weedy soil.

But it's going to end up done. Complete. Full flower and bloom. And producing fruit in the whole nine yards.

So, it's going to be all the way to the end. The hail storm won't come and tear it down. You're going to have fruit at the end.

And it's going to be ripe for the picking. It's going to be good. So, what he began.

It says that in the Bible. I don't know where. Somewhere in the Bible. New Testament. He who began a good work in you will finish it.

Now, that's a paraphrase too. That's Philippians 1 .6. Yes. There you go. Yeah.

Well, God started. He's going to finish. So, he's the author. He's the finisher. He preserves what is his.

He won't let it fall away. Even though sometimes we. I say make it work.

I mean. Everything is easy for God. But we. Yeah. Well, and this kind of answers and goes back to what we were saying in the beginning.

That this is all God from beginning to end. And these are verses that point to that. This verse.

He's the author and finisher of our faith. And then the verse that you were telling us about.

Philippians 1 .6. He who began a good work will be faithful to complete it.

So, we have scripture telling us. God initiates, starts, works it, and finishes it.

So, it's all of him. And that idea of an author. Gives you the idea of him writing something.

So, it takes my mind to the book of life. Where it says that our names are written down in the book of life.

It's not like he hadn't read the book. Or he didn't. Like he wrote it. He wrote the book. It wasn't a book where it was like Nostradamus just guessing at something.

Amen. Him not writing down what had already happened. Like recorded history. This was God writing in the book.

And it coming true. Was it the never ending story? He changed what happened in the book.

And the story changed. Maybe I'm remembering that wrong. But same idea. What God wrote down.

What God decreed. What he authored. Yeah. The never ending story quote

I think is what we were laughing at there. Preach brother. Preach.

You're saying truth. Say on. Sorry. The only thing that I can remember from that movie is the boy flying on a dog.

Or dragon. Yeah. He's a dog dragon.

He's got scales and everything. That's right. I apologize for interrupting you.

He's got to get away so that nothing doesn't take care of him. He's preserved from the nothing eating him up.

That's right. I'm taking this analogy too far. Did you want to finish your thought?

I was. I rudely interrupted you. I don't remember what my thought is. Never ending story in my head.

Let's go on to the next one. When God says everlasting.

He means it. True. True. Next. Yeah.

You know, these things are absolutely true. And, you know, we can check the box.

Absolutely is true. But, you know, words have meaning.

Yeah. And we can't look at scripture, read, read text and make it say what we want to say.

And here's, you know, another big word that we use. I said, Jesus, we can't read into the text.

Or put into what we wanted to say. Words have meaning.

God carefully chose not only us, but the words that he used in the scripture. To teach us about who he is and his character.

And, you know, when he uses the word everlasting. Now, I will say this.

You know, something that I learned along the way. That I would encourage everyone to be careful. Because I've heard other preachers and teachers, you know, say these very things that we're saying.

That words have meaning. And so when you see the word all. All means all.

All the time. And it goes back to some of those opposition verses that we've looked at in the past.

Where we've seen from scripture how God has chosen.

He has elected certain people. Certain men to be saved. And we've looked at verses that seem to be in opposition to that.

And you have one of those verses that said God desires that all men everywhere.

That they would repent. Come to repentance. It's the epistle of Peter.

Third chapter, yeah. Right. And so you have verses just like that as an example.

And I think there's a couple others that use the word all. That would seem to point to us to God having a desire to save all men.

Or that Jesus, you know, died for all men. But here's the lesson that we learned.

Is that you have to read. You get the meaning of the word. Not just from the definition but the context.

Amen. And to go to context for your question there about everlasting.

What does God mean when he says everlasting? It means perpetual, continual. It's used in Isaiah 61 .8.

For I the Lord love justice. I hate robbery and wrong. I will faithfully give them their recompense.

And I will make an everlasting covenant with them. Jeremiah 32.

I will make an everlasting covenant. That I will not turn away from doing good to them. And I will put the fear of me in their hearts.

That they may not turn from me. There's a perseverance of the saints text.

Jeremiah 50 verse 5. They shall ask the way to Zion with faces turned toward it.

Saying come let us join ourselves to the Lord. In an everlasting covenant that will never be forgotten.

Ezekiel 16. Yet I will remember my covenant with you in the days of your youth. And I will establish with you an everlasting covenant.

The importance when we see this term used. Everlasting covenant. That's an everlasting agreement.

And it's a unilateral agreement. It's one way. So we can't even snatch ourselves out of his hand.

I was just looking for a question. That I meant to put in here.

But I don't think that I did. So I'm going to ask it when we finish this last one. We're on the last one Dan.

The last proof that I wrote down in our notes. There are some that appear to be saved. But are not and never were.

Can you explain what we're talking about there? Right. There are those.

Who for whatever reason. Seem to have salvation and then not have it.

Or seem to have a faith and then not have that faith. They seem to like the things of God.

Even love the things of God. Seem to enjoy the fellowship of the saints. And go on for a while.

And then at a certain time. They no longer. This is described in a couple different ways.

One of them. Well, Johnny. He kind of uses a tug tongue twister.

He says that they. Went out from us. Because they were not of us.

For. I don't know. Basically says that if they were of us. They would have stayed with us, but they went out from us.

So that way they would prove that they were not really. Of us. So there's a, there's a real, a real sense of which they were a part of.

Us. No, at least externally, they were there. They were engaging in sacraments.

They were praying with people. They were. No talking about the Bible. And yet.

Their faith was not one that was brought about by God. It was a false faith. Generated from somewhere in the.

The seat. The seatfulness of their own heart. Maybe they, they enjoyed a certain aspect of it.

Or maybe they wanted to believe. And they. Turned from that faith and left it fully.

And finally, the reason why they did that is because. Their faith was not a faith that was authored and finished.

By God. That had something else to it, either. Like terrible.

He said that some people would have the cares of this life. Choking out life.

Got too much for him to make. God a priority. Which I don't understand because he created the world.

But. When we fall into our sins, sin deceives us. And we forget that. And it's easy when sin is there to see.

Also. About the, the rocky soil. A little bit of hardship comes by.

I'm out. I quit. Because you didn't have any root. Like there wasn't any skin in the game.

You didn't count the cost before you. Entered into that relationship or that. Commitment to being a

Christian. And you, you fell by the wayside. And.

It's, it's sad to see. Yeah. But. You know, like, like Claude was saying before.

Those who are gods are not going to leave. God. We can't jump out of his hand. It says. In that same passage.

When you're talking about from John 10. Says I give them eternal life. And they will never perish.

Two things happen. And then the third, I didn't mention yet. One, he gave them eternal life. Two. It's effective.

They will never perish. And three. No one will snatch them out of my hand.

Amen. Are they. Am I a someone.

I'm a someone. Can I snatch me out of my hand? He says, no one. That's right.

Me. You. You down the street. Nobody. So. This is.

There's a lot there. We can get into. Different. I mean, look at the whole old

Testament. Look at the profits. The profits. Call from God to a people that will call

God's people. Yeah. To say, Hey, you're sending. Turn from your wickedness or you will be destroyed.

Not just physically, but internally. Yeah. And some turn.

Some had faith. Others did not. And sometimes it looked bleak. Isaiah thought he was it.

Somebody thought he was it. So now I've got 7 ,000 other folks. Don't worry about it.

I've got my people. They're not falling away. That's a, that's a sad one.

Like Becky said, we see this a lot in the deconstructionism that's happening today.

Now, if you don't know what new constructionism is, Deconstructionism isn't in and of itself.

Bad thing. Yes. Let me explain. The idea. Right. The idea behind it is that you take everything that was handed to you.

And you break it down into pieces and parts and then rebuild it. No. Based on the facts.

What usually happens is they throw out so much of the structure.

See that they don't have the tools to actually rebuild anything in substance.

So what they do is to mix metaphors. They throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Tear down the scaffolding. They tear down the whole building to the foundation, try to build on no foundation at all.

This doesn't work anymore. You just destroyed the foundation of it. God has spoken to us.

What ends up happening is. A lot of people who deconstruct their faith. Deconstructed to a point where they try to start with themselves.

And when you start with yourself, you make yourself God. Amen. And. I think that's why a lot of it.

It looks different for Pete, for folks all over the world. But. That is why you see people falling away.

Because the God that they thought they were worshiping. When you broke it down.

Like a. Scooby -doo. No Fred goes up at the end and says, no, let me see who you.

Who this God really is. The thing often at the mirror. Yeah. That wasn't the

God you were worshiping. God of your own imagination, which. It's easy to do or finite creatures.

We need the powerful creator who has revealed himself. Regenerate our hearts and minds to.

Wash us with the Holy spirit. Renew us. And bring us to life.

I don't want to. I don't want to dishearteningly though.

Because. The one who. Who. The one who has left the church.

Who has left the faith. They. We believe that they were not saved in the first place.

Because those. So. If you're one of those people and you're listening to me.

I don't want you to think that we look down on you or we. We think you're less than, or you're some other class over there because.

What we really believe. Is that you were in absolutely no different situation than any of us were.

Before we came to truth. Right. And I want to extend that grace to anybody who's here because.

I don't. I know my own heart and I know. Who God is. If I end up in the next year or two fall away from the faith.

I really want the grace of God to be extended to me. In year three and four and have.

Back into. The real true saving faith. Because there's so much at stake.

That's not a lot. Y 'all wrap up my loose end for me. No, that's okay. And I would, I would.

I mean. I would cast out even further and I would say that. The, the.

The grace that you talked about that. That we were extending to folks in the, in the gospel of Jesus Christ.

And that the grace that we need to show to other people. Paul said.

When you see a brother overtaken in a sin. You put your spiritual. Right.

Go to such a one restoring such a one in the spirit of meekness. For considering yourselves.

Lest you also be tempted. Right. So that's consideration there. But that comes that grace, part of the grace of God is the means of grace.

And that is. Being a member of a local church, a local body. Where, when you do start.

To. Slip. Right. My Paul. Or Peter or not Peter. Or Paul.

Either one of them. But David said, the Psalmist said, my feet had wiped.

Now we'll slip in the King James. I just as good as fallen. Right. But we

Christians, we do slip. We fall. We sin. Regularly. We are not.

Non sinners. Once we're saved. We're sinners saved by God's grace. But the, the grace that God gives to the

Christian. Is that being a member of the local church. That we've got the grace of being, having brothers and sisters alongside of us.

When we do sin. To call us. To account for that sin. That's a grace of God.

Folks. Don't look at that. But that is a grace of God. And that is. That is a, that is a means of persevering grace.

Because it is a continual reaching out a continual helping. A continual caring for one another enough.

To address the sin in our lives. With one another. Yep. Yep.

I definitely know that if I step out of line. If I've looked like I'm, I'm going.

The wrong direction. I real quick, I'm going to have Ryan. And John. I'm going to have

Bill. Jack. Bruce. Probably. And he's going to come to. Oh, no.

I haven't even named. They're good. They're going to come over. Praise the Lord. Sit with me and they're going to pray with me.

And they're not going to leave until I'm set straight. Yeah. Those guys. Those are my elders.

They're going to make sure that. Care for my soul.

Amen. And that, that's the, the good. Under shepherd.

You know, the hireling runs away because he's afraid. Yeah. Put people in his church that are not going to run away because they're really truly doing the work of the shepherd.

Amen. That was such a good word.

I mean, that, that was such a good word.

That's that's why I do this. That's why I want to do this. And. You know,

I, I'm going to pray that God. God will allow somebody to hear what you guys just said.

He may intend it. He may intend it for just one person. But I wish so many people could hear what you guys just said.

And the, and the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and. So you guys explained it and what it means to be a

Christian and. The joy that that's there and the help that's there.

The bringing back. Oh, my goodness. All that you guys just said.

It's such a good word. And. I'm going to be praying. You know, this week.

That God will use the word. That he spoke to you guys tonight, because that was the. That was the gospel.

That was, that was the grace of God that he. That he spoke to you guys. He's not.

I'm just going to keep repeating myself because it was so good. And I want, I want to praise the Lord for what you guys just said.

It was amazing. And I wish, I wish I could do something to.

To share these videos more to. Plead with people to listen to the word of grace, the word of truth.

But, you know, it's, it's in the Lord's hands. And I know right now we're, we're just.

I know I'm living in the, in the joy of. The truth of what you guys just said.

It's amazing. So. Thank you. Praise the

Lord. One thing as you were talking, Dan, one thing that I thought about was. What I've listened to and heard.

Deconstructionist or Christian deconstructionist. They did exactly what you were talking about.

They get to the point where they. They are the arbiter of truth.

And so. But what, what becomes true is what they decide is true.

And if you try to have a conversation with those folks, it becomes very difficult because it goes against the grain of what they decided to be true.

And they, they only, they only allow in their circles, those that.

I mean, they don't have to agree with them, but. They don't disagree with, they don't disagree with them.

They let them comfortable in who they are. At the same time, the reason why it rubs against the grain, it goes the wrong way.

It's like sandpaper rubbing dog the wrong way. The reason why it's, it's so gritty.

Is because they, they do have a knowledge of the truth and that truth is witnessing to them.

And it'll, it'll make you angry if you're not wanting to hear it. So that's why we need the grace of God to regenerate our hearts and lives.

So. It would gentleness and grace. Don't ever stop.

Even if you take folks off gentleness and grace, but that's the point at which.

God is breaking hearts in a good way, breaking the heart of stone, removing it and replacing it with the heart of flesh.

The thought regenerated heart that he has. So even though those are hard conversations, you almost feel like you're beating your head against the wall.

Those are the times when if someone's going to be brought back, somebody's going to be restored, even as from the jaws of hell.

That's going to be the time in which it's done. So don't, don't lose heart in those situations.

And Dan, going back to your, your explaining this, this last proof, there are some that appear to be saved, but are not.

And I never were, as you listen to Dan, give that explanation of what we're talking about there.

That's one of the reasons why I wanted to, to tag on that last video here at the end of March.

The how can I know that I'm saved looking at the test in first, first John is because I think that needs to be fleshed out.

A little bit more on this idea of what does it look like? How can I know, you know, we talked about it, you know,

Claude was jumping in there and telling us, you know, are we, are we going to be perfect? No, we're sinners saved by grace and we're going to fall.

Does that mean we've lost our salvation or does that mean that we've, we were never saved? No. And I think it would be a good time for us to flesh those things out in that video.

And that's why I wanted to do it at the end and do how, how can

I know that I'm saved video? So let's see. Oh, oh, the question that I didn't.

So this is, this is not intended to be one of, you know, one of those curve balls or take you guys off guard type questions.

I meant it. Yeah. Yeah. It's not a curve. It's a knuckle ball.

That's right. It makes your knees buckle. Yeah. I'm going to need Grogu's help over here. So I meant to include this question.

I don't think it'll be too, too far out there. Difficult for you guys. And I think you'll know where I'm coming from.

So another term that we use to that, that's similar to the perseverance of the saints or, or once saved always saved is eternal security.

We use that term or some people use that term. And that was another popular term for me growing up, you know, believing it being taught that.

And so where, where I grew up situation that I grew up in, you, you have, you have somebody who believes in eternal security, which is what we would call one of the, one of the five doctrines of the faith or doctors, doctors of grace.

However, though they hold to this one, they really don't care too much for the other four, but in my mind, as I learned these things, perseverance of the saints is linked so closely to the other four that I don't understand how you can't believe the other four.

If you believe in eternal security, have you had those thoughts? What do you think about that?

How, how tightly linked all the other four are with perseverance of the saints.

And I think we have touched on it earlier. I just want to kind of marry that conversation. I would say just real quick.

I would say they're, they are linked in the same way.

Perseverance of the saints linked to the other doctrines of grace for the same reason that predestination calling justification and glorification are linked together in Romans eight, 28, nine and 30.

For the exact same reason that it is because God is certain because God is unfailing because God is unflinching because God is unwavering because God is unmoving because God is faithful to his word and he cannot contradict his word.

And he cannot lie as men lie because of that truth, because of God's sovereignty summed up in those terms, they are inextricably linked together.

So perseverance of the saints is, is linked like the golden, like the truths in the golden chain of redemption.

Any thoughts on that, Dan? Yeah, I kind of understand where they're coming from, but I still think they're wrong.

And here's why. If, if you have a, if you have elevated the will of man to a point where, and that sounds accubatory,

I hate to sound like that. If you, if you think that the final decision maker in, in your faith is you, you know,

God has provided everything. And then you make the final decision to either receive the gift or profess faith.

Usually that's the way it's put. If you've just received Christ in your heart, then the other one's kind of, to say that you're totally depraved, you know, that says, well, that means that I don't have the ability to receive

Jesus by myself. So clearly that can't be true because it takes away my ability and I've got to have some sort of ability or unconditional election.

Well, maybe I'm, you know, why me and not somebody else?

Or why somebody else and not me? Well, God wouldn't be like that or limited atonement. Well, I would want to die for everybody.

So I know God would want to die for everybody. Or it was just, well, God's a gentleman. He wouldn't go against my will.

But come the perseverance of the saints or eternal security, like once, once I'm saved,

I'm always saved. Oh yeah. God would do that. Yeah. I think it's, it's a process that people kind of go through as we recognize the incredible depth to which

God has gone through to change the makeup of our soul.

As he's regenerated us and given us new life. Yeah, you should absolutely believe in the eternal security of God because God is good.

And I think it's really a consistency issue for the rest of it. Because there's a different,

I mean, I don't know. It's like the same starting point will lead you to, of I made the decision will lead you to be, to bristle at the first four and then be thankful for the last one.

Because when I made a decision that God's going to take care of you. Well, if you start from the point of, this is

God's doing, God's offering, God's beginning, God's creating me being

God's workmanship created in Christ Jesus for good works. Then all of them don't make sense.

Like, well, thank God he elected somebody or we'd all be lost. Well, thank God he died for somebody or we'd all be without atonement.

Well, thank God he called me because I'm boneheaded enough to look at the flames of hell and jump in head first.

Thank God he will preserve me. So I understand it. And I would just challenge folks to look through the consistency of your doctrine, which we should all be doing.

That's exactly right. Not an internal consistency within your doctrinal system, which is important, but a consistency between all of your points of doctrine together and their consistency with scripture.

Because all of that is very important. And I would start not with the issue of salvation or even the issue of man.

I would start with the theology of God. And systematic theologies generally start that way anyway.

And they do so for a reason. They start with the theology of God because once you have a theology of who

God is, what he has done, how he's created the world and how he set everything up.

If you follow consistently logically and scripturally after that, it starts you from a different point.

The issue we've had a lot in churches is that there's been a lot of teaching about a lot of stuff.

But the way that we've picked it up has been piecemeal here or there. You go by almost like you're at the

Golden Corral. If y 'all don't have a Golden Corral, you should.

Golden Corral, you walk by and you're like, oh, I want some shrimp. Let me get some carrots. Let me get a piece of cheesecake.

You go by, oh, I really like, let's see,

I like creation. I like this. I like the doctrine of the

Holy Spirit. I like post -millennial eschatology. And then you pick up, but you don't really link them all together.

And the thing is, they're a bit, they're a whole. So as we're going through our studies,

I'd almost suggest this. Run through, looking at the

Bible as a whole, grab a biblical theology. Run through a systematic theology, a solid systematic theology.

Then run through a historical theology and see if you screwed anything up and found heresy that you followed that somebody else did.

And then just start the process over. Just keep on going. It won't be a circle.

People think it's a circle. I was going to get bored. No. You start getting tighter and tighter and tighter and tighter.

And here's the point you want to avoid along the way is when you're getting your spiral tighter and tighter.

Don't exclude other people who are on a different point than you. Don't make it so small that you put everybody else out of the kingdom and then you're staying on one foot.

Yeah. Just remember that God has called people to himself. And even if people don't understand how they're saved, they can still be saved.

That's right. That's right. So, yeah, I don't know.

I said a lot. I don't know. I forgot what I was trying to say, but there you go. Well, the things that you're saying tonight need to be written down.

One of us needs to go back and take down notes of what's being said because I think it is key.

It's important. It's grace filled and it's gospel and it's truth. Similar to how

I was going to wrap it up, what you were talking about. And I can't improve on what you said.

But I was just going to say that it's so similar to where I was going with it. I'm so glad you used the word consistency and inconsistency.

So I want to talk about my comment and your comment, but consistency and definition, too.

And definition of the word. Yeah, that was funny. Definition and words.

So the folks that I was talking about that that hold that believe in the eternal security like we do, but have a problem with the other four.

Where I see the inconsistency is that it goes back to the first video that we did on the sovereignty of God.

They believe in the sovereignty, the definition of God's sovereignty that we do when it comes to perseverance of the saints and eternal security.

But they change their definition of the sovereignty of God when it comes to the other doctrines.

They're not consistent in their application of God's sovereignty. And that goes to to your point.

You've got to have you interpret all doctrines based on a consistent understanding of God's character, nature.

And it can't change based on the doctrine that you're looking at that day.

So I think it's a lot. And you said it so so well.

I need to go back and take notes on that. And that's not in God's sovereignty.

That's that's not the first time that I've heard that. It was Boland. You're familiar with Boland, that he spoke for the cruciform post -millennial conference.

He had a podcast. And I think it was the actual talk that he did in that conference, the post -millennial conference by cruciform

Peter Boland. Peter Boland. And he his topic was very similar to what you were just talking about,

Dan, being consistent in in our apologetics and being consistent in in our post -millennialism.

And just how it how it's all connected. So, yeah, in God's sovereignty, he's he is teaching me that that I need to be consistent.

We also be consistent. So for the sake of time, I don't want to extend this to too long.

I've got some verses here that we've we've looked at or that I'd like for us to look at, but don't have time.

We've already looked at several verses and we mentioned Philippians one six. Here's some here's some verses that we would use,

I guess, as proof text or to support the perseverance of the saints. And there's there's many, many more.

But John 10, 28. First, John 2, 19. First, Peter 1, 5.

Second, 1, 2 and Ephesians 4, 30. So, you know, everybody, we all can look up those verses and other verses when we have more time.

But I wanted to look at these. Have a quick discussion on these, as we've done in the past, these verses of opposition.

Matthew 6, 15 is one of them. And I'll just I'll just read them quickly and we can, you know, lightly talk on it.

Matthew 6, 15. But if you do not forgive others, then your father will not forgive your transgressions.

I guess people can use that and say that you can you could lose your salvation.

If you don't obey, you can lose your salvation. You know, and I could hear somebody breaking that down.

You know, he he says, but if you so he's speaking to possibly probably a disciple.

If you do not forgive, then here's the consequence. You're not forgiven. If you're not forgiven, you're not saved. So there's the breakdown.

What say you, Dan? Yes. I mean, let's not let's not be.

It's a serious thing. I mean, I'm not saying that y 'all are making light of it. I know. It's a serious thing because we're saying here is absolutely 100 percent accurate.

If you do not forgive other people, you will not be forgiving yourself. Now, does that mean you have to forgive perfectly?

I don't think so. But here's what it does mean. You need to have a you need to if if you're going to approach

God for salvation. Obviously, it's going to be on you and all the other stuff that we've talked about in that vein of context.

The regeneration of the Holy Spirit will cause you to, if you fail at this, repent of your sin and forgive others.

Unrepentant sin is a sign of an unregenerate heart. Or if you're in the flow of it, a backsliding.

At some point you will repent and turn from that thing.

Now, here's the thing. I think we get a little bit flippant with this, especially as Calvinists.

Sin is so very serious. Sin will absolutely lead you straight to hell.

And to let it go on in your life is a sign that you may be headed right there. The law of God says very clearly that sin will lead you to the rope of fire.

And then. We all need to remember that it's only by the grace of Jesus Christ that we are forgiven.

Amen. So, I mean, it's almost like we're having church. It sounds just like here's the law.

You must forgive other people or you will not be forgiven yourself. So come you who have come to Christ seeking forgiveness.

Don't turn from your sin. If you turn back to your sin, turn away from it again. Trust in Christ.

Believe in him and everyone as bad as you are at living life and keeping the law.

If you trust in Christ, believe in him for the forgiveness of your sins and repent of what you've done.

That grace of God is yours. The grace of God washes away your sin and takes it.

So while this is true and I'm not diminishing it at all.

In fact, we need to take it more seriously. Probably should also remember that just because we don't have to do each and every bit of the law perfectly in order to merit the favor of God.

But instead in turning from our sin, trusting in Christ, we find the grace to forgive others as we've been forgiven ourselves.

So for all of you who hear my words today, if you are innocent and you repent and you look to Christ in the gospel.

Those of you who truly believe, those of you who turn from your sin. You have the forgiveness and grace of Christ in your life right now.

It is a gift of grace and gospel given to you where your sins are washed away and you're made clean.

You'll be forever with the Lord. All because of the work that God has done.

He's doing in us. Like I said, we are his workmanship creating Christ Jesus. Sometimes you got to throw the clay a few times because I don't want to stick.

Right. We will have to repent of the same sins over and over. But keep your eyes on Christ and know that that forgiveness is full and short and complete in him.

That's right. So, yeah, they're right, but they're not that right.

I appreciate that. First Corinthians 15, one and two. Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which

I preach to you, which also you receive, in which also you stand, by which also you are saved.

If you hold fast to the word which I preach to you, unless you believed in vain.

So there it seems like it's put on us. This perseverance is put on us. If you hold fast.

What do you think, Paul? Well, I think along with the next passage that you'll go to in Colossians 122 and 23 connecting those that that term is used if, but it's not if you in your own power, but as a result, as a result of God doing the work of regeneration in you.

Like what I was thinking of, Ephesians chapter four, verse 32, while Dan was talking there, be kind one to another, tender hearted, forgiving one another, even as God, for Christ's sake, has also forgiven you.

That is, it's the issue with using these verses against the doctrine of perseverance of the saints or preservation of the saints.

These verses that are used against it are actually saying, as a result of being saved, as a result of God doing his work in you, these things will take place and these things will happen.

Right, because even even in the passage I just talked about, I mean, speaking to Jewish people who had the law in front of them, who were into Pharisees and told them, keep the law, keep the law or you'll never be saved.

And he's like, well, she keep it absolutely perfectly. You won't be saved. You need grace.

Amen. Yeah, I appreciate that word.

Yeah, that was a great explanation. How to understand it. So key.

So, so since you tied in first Corinthians 15 and Colossians, so they're both pointing us in the same direction.

And I wrote, I wrote the verse down. I can't remember where it is.

We're just going to look at one more. I've got down, I jotted down two verses in Hebrews, Hebrews 3, 6 and Hebrews 3, 14.

But there's another verse in Hebrews. And I don't know where my paper is, but it's the verse about falling away.

People like to use. Chapter six. Okay. Hebrews chapter six.

Is it verse 10? No. It is.

If you're talking about if they should fall away to renew them against again to repentance. Right.

That's the one you're talking about. That's verse six. Yeah. Okay. And then have fallen away.

It is impossible to renew them again to repentance. Yeah. Yeah. So how do we understand this falling away?

If it doesn't mean one can lose their salvation? Well, this is where the

Baptist and the Presbyterians are going to answer things differently. Maybe not.

Maybe not. Go ahead. I believe this is talking about those who are close to the community of faith.

Those who have tasted the heavenly gift, the gift of forgiveness of sins in Christ Jesus, who have shared in the

Holy Spirit. They've taken the sacraments. They've seen the blessings of God. They've been around the people of God.

While prayers have been answered and blessings have been handed out. And then they have fallen away.

They reject the gospel. They reject the church. They leave anything that has to do with God and his salvation.

And then they go their own way. What's happening is, since they have cast in their lots with those who would have driven the nails themselves and pushed all the crown of thorns onto Christ, instead of seeking forgiveness through the cross, they were there to kill

God and the Son of God. They, in their contempt, have fallen away from the only place where salvation is.

So they will not be saved. They were so close and yet so far.

That's why John explains to us that they were of us, but they left us to prove that they were not of us.

It's that sort of thing right there. In the Confessions, chapter 10, section 4 of the

London Baptist Confession, those who are not elected will not and cannot truly come to Christ and therefore cannot be saved because they are not effectually drawn by the

Father. They may even be called by the ministry of the Word and may receive some ordinary working of the

Spirit without being saved, much less can any be saved who do not receive the Christian religion, no matter how diligently they live their lives according to the light of nature and the teachings of the religion they profess.

I would say we're in perfect alignment there, Dan. Presbyterians and Baptists.

We'll come to different ones where we may disagree, but I think we're doing pretty good.

Yeah. I think a lot of people point out the importance of the word tasted.

It plays a key here. That tasted of the good

Word of God, the powers. For these folks, it's the means of grace that you guys were already talking about.

God's grace comes through the means of grace. And so they've experienced that through believers.

And the common grace of God, the rain falls on the wicked and the righteous.

And so you've got the common grace of God. You've got the means of God through His saints. They've tasted that.

They've experienced forgiveness brought by the Holy Spirit in His believers, in His saints, to them.

And visually and audibly seen it amongst themselves, seeing believers forgive each other, seeing believers forgive them.

There's that tasting that they've seen. They've tasted that work of the Holy Spirit. But then because they weren't affectionately called, they don't believe and they fall away.

Is that kind of in the same direction that you were going, Dan? Yeah. Okay.

Okay. Fantastic. So yeah, and here's another verse. And of course, there's many more that people would use.

But I think we would get similar explanations. 2 Peter 2, verses 20 through 22.

I think we're to the point where we're going to give similar explanations for these verses to help explain why they're not in opposition to the perseverance of the saints.

So I know we're going to talk about this in another video, the test of salvation, how to know that we're saved.

But if you could just give one a piece, what would be an evidence if you were trying to give someone some assurance or what to look for?

How can one look for fruits? What is a fruit of proof of salvation in one's life?

Claude, what would you say to someone seeking assurance? I would say, does sin bother you?

Does sin grieve you? Does sin affect you when knowing that you have sinned against the

Holy God? What about you, Dan? What's one proof or fruit?

I would look at the fruit of the Spirit. Love, joy, peace, kindness, gentleness, faith.

And I wouldn't tell people to look at it in the short term. I would tell them to take a look at it over a longer period of time.

Because if you look at certain things happening in history, any single point in history could look absolutely beautiful or absolutely awful.

So instead of trying to gauge where you're at by how have

I done this week, look at what has

God done in me over the last two years, four years, six years, eight years.

And as you continue along in your faith life, you will see a pattern of growing closer and closer to God.

And the thing is, as foolish and stubborn as we are, it'll be like the dude who was walking along the beach.

And Jesus said, you see those two sets of footprints? That's where I carried you. And those two long lines are when

I dragged you through the sand. We may not always recognize the work of God in our lives.

But when I look back, oh goodness, what year is it? 2022? 13 years ago.

About 13 years ago, a brand new Christian Dan. Praise the

Lord. Wow, that dude was a fool. And now I hope in 13 more years,

I'll look back at now and be like, wow, that dude was a fool too.

That's exactly right. Amen, man. Good job. 13 years from there, and then on in eternity, when we see our sin finally taken away, we'll see that God would bring us along consistently toward Himself the whole way.

It can get dangerous. You don't want to take too much stock in your actions.

You want to trust in the grace of Christ throughout all situations. And you want to make the main thing that faith.

Do I have faith? Am I looking to Christ? Even when I stumble, even when I slide back down the hill, am

I still keeping my eyes fixed up there? Even if I take my eyes off of Him, am I quick to put them back up in it?

Amen. Even if it takes a swat from somewhere, am I putting my eyes back on Christ? And if you have taken your eyes off of Christ, make sure you put them back on and look at them.

Go find a group of people who love the Lord and say, Guys, let's link arms and climb up together.

Knowing that really it's more like a ski lift. There's been some great teaching on this particular topic in recent years that the

Lord has graciously let me listen to. I know Paul Washer is one of them.

So I would encourage anybody to go listen to Paul Washer. He says, If you've been saved, you're going to have a new relationship with God's Word.

And the same thing with seeing what Paul Washer was talking about. You're going to have a new relationship. It's not going to be the same.

And then as you were talking, Dan, it made me think of listening to Kirk Cameron.

I don't know if it was a Wretched video with Todd Frill or if it was a Living Water, Way of the Master with Ray Comfort.

But I remember in the video he was teaching on that subject. And he said, If you're in your walk and you look back, you're not going to be where you were.

But if you look forward, you're not where you want to be yet. So you want to be in the position where you can see both where God has brought you from and where he's taking you.

It's like taking a tumble down the up escalator. You keep on falling down, but somehow you keep on going up.

That's right. That's right. So thank you guys so much. I really appreciate it.

It was such a blessing. What a wonderful time in the word and so insightful.

And I am going to be praying that God will use this and people will hear because it's so useful and so God exalting and Christ exalting as well.

We surely don't want to miss the opportunity to talk about Jesus and encourage you to come to him in repentance and faith.

We've all seen, we've all missed the mark. And today, Scripture says, today is the day of salvation.

Do not go to bed without making your calling and election sure. Know that you know in your heart that God has come and saved you.

And don't stop praying. Don't stop reading the Bible. Reach out to someone.

Make sure that you know, because Jesus is the best thing in the universe and the best thing that can ever happen to you.

So come to him in repentance and faith. And with that, Claude, would you mind to close us in prayer?

Yes, sir. Lord, we love you and we praise you.

We thank you for this time that you give us together tonight. Thank you for the truth of your word that these men have shared tonight.

Thank you for the faith that was once and for all delivered to the saints that we have in the word of God.

Thank you for the assurance of faith bound through your

Holy Spirit. It's in Jesus' name we pray. Amen. Amen.

Thank you for watching. We really appreciate it. Remember that Jesus is King. Go live in the victory of Jesus. Go speak with the authority of Jesus.

And continue to go out and share the gospel of Jesus. Hope you guys have a good rest of your week.