Gregg Allison Interview - Historical Theology

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Welcome to No Compromise Radio, a ministry coming to you from Bethlehem Bible Church in West Boylston.

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No Compromise Radio is a program dedicated to the ongoing proclamation of Jesus Christ. Based on the theme in Galatians 2, verse 5, where the

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Apostle Paul said, "...but we did not yield in subjection to them for even an hour, so that the truth of the gospel would remain with you."

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In short, if you like smooth, watered -down words to make you simply feel good, this show isn't for you.

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By purpose, we are first biblical, but we can also be controversial. Stay tuned for the next 25 minutes as we're called by the divine trumpet to summon the troops for the honor and glory of her

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King. Here's our host, Pastor Mike Abendroth. Welcome to No Compromise Radio ministry.

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My name is Mike Abendroth, and I'm your host. As you know, the slogan around here is always biblical, always provocative, always in that order.

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And we really want to focus on the theme of no compromise. And of course, the bad news is I'm a compromiser, and everyone else is a compromiser as well, except when we look to the

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Lord Jesus Christ. Can you imagine never compromising in any way, shape, or form? The eternal

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Son of God. And so we want to promote Christ Jesus on this radio station. And so today, we have a special guest,

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Dr. Greg Allison, online with us to talk about his new book on historical theology called

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Historical Theology. Dr. Allison, welcome to No Compromise Radio ministry. Thank you very much, Mike, for having me on your program.

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Now, Dr. Allison is a professor at Southern Seminary. And Dr. Allison, how long have you been there?

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Since 2003, is that right? 2003, nearly completed eight years. That's right. Well, it is a great opportunity for me today to talk about this book, because as we just said off air, this book promotes sound doctrine and right thinking about our triune

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God. Why should a layperson listening today have any desire to read a book on historical theology?

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Think of historical theology as a treasure of wisdom that God has given to his people, the

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Church, throughout the centuries. And thus, wisdom that can be very beneficial to us today as Christians and to churches as we seek to live faithfully and obediently for the

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Lord Jesus Christ. Well, this Zondervan book, 784 pages, is just packed full of great information about God's working through the local church, almost an extenuation of the book of Acts, how the

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Spirit of God works in his church. And Dr. Allison, tell me before we get into some of the details, what's your favorite church history story?

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No, let me change that. What's the most funny story that you know of in church history? I think it would be

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John Calvin's call to Geneva. He's recently completed the first edition of his

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Institutes of the Christian Religion. He's traveling through the city of Geneva in what is now

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Switzerland. He stays at a hotel. He does not have any intention of staying there in the city, but William Farrell, a

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Reformer in the city of Geneva, comes to his hotel room, hears that he's there, bangs on the door, comes in and demands that Calvin stay there in Geneva to help with the

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Reformation in that city. Calvin has no interest in this. He wants to lead a leisurely life, just a peaceful life so that he can continue to write theology and to promote the

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Reformation through his writings. Well, Farrell, who apparently had red hair and just flashing eyes, basically calls down the curse of God upon Calvin if he would pursue this life of leisure for writing.

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And basically, Calvin hears the voice of God speaking to him through this demand of Farrell to stay in the city, and he stays.

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Maybe not a funny story, but certainly a riveting story of the way

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God moves his people, directs his people, including a man like John Calvin. Dr.

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Allison, was Danny Akin, Dr. Danny Akin, as Farrell was to Calvin, was

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Akin to Allison when he called you from Western Seminary to Southern Baptist Theological Seminary?

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It wasn't necessarily the call, but I still remember coming into an early chapel during my tenure here, and Dr.

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Akin was preaching on 1 Corinthians chapter 13, and the love of God and the kindness of God, and he gave the illustration of how we should tip after eating at a restaurant.

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And he basically mounted up very largely in the pulpit and pointed his finger across the audience and called us out as carnal, worldly, dirty, rotten, cold -hearted people in the church, and said that we need to step up and tip our waiters and waitresses well.

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And I was absolutely shocked. I had never heard a sermon quite that fiery, and I tell you, since then,

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I have not tipped less than 20 percent every time I go out to a restaurant. He scared me.

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Well, Dr. Akin was just here at Bethlehem Bible Church, and he told us that story as well, and so I think he must have been a waiter at one time in his life, but I'm not sure.

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I think he was, exactly. We have Dr. Allison online here today on air for No Compromise Radio.

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The book is entitled, Historical Theology, subtitled, An Introduction to Christian Doctrine, and it also says here, a companion to Wayne Grudem's Systematic Theology.

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Tell our listeners how this book relates to the Systematic Theology book by Grudem, and the story of Wayne asking you to write it.

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About 13 years ago, when I was early in my career at Western Seminary teaching

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Systematic Theology, Wayne called me up one day. He had been my dissertation supervisor, a professor for me, when

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I was at Trinity doing both my Master's of Divinity degree and my Ph .D. program. He was a good friend.

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He called me up one day and said, I'm looking for someone to write a book that includes everything that I wasn't able to include in my

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Systematic Theology book, that is, the historical development of all the doctrines that I treat in my book.

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And he said, and you're the man I want to write this book. Now, I was early in my career, just starting out as a professor, and I was deeply honored.

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And obviously, this is an invitation to which you don't say no. So I said, Wayne, this would be wonderful, but how does one go about writing a book like this?

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And he said, I've already talked to Zondervan, they've already agreed that you'll be the person to write it, they're going to send you a contract in the mail, here's an editor for you.

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He had everything set up. It was just a wonderful situation for me as I began to write.

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And basically, my idea was that initial purpose that Wayne gave to me, to look at most of the doctrines that he includes in his

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Systematic Theology, as he explains what we are to believe and do and be today, according to all that Scripture informs us, affirms about the various doctrines of which we're interested.

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And then, my responsibility would be to write the historical development, how we have come to believe what we believe today about, for example, the inerrancy of Scripture, or the person of Christ, or His atoning sacrifice, beginning with the early

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Church, moving into the Middle Ages, the Medieval period, then moving into the

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Reformation and post -Reformation period, and concluding with modern developments in our current period.

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And so, that's how my book relates to his. Well, I love it that in the book, on page 19, it says that reading the companion volumes for greatest benefit.

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So, it's got Grudem's column, chapter 1, for instance, lines up with your chapter 1 on historical theology, so they can be read together.

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And so, I really like that treatment. True or false? That's one of the key strategies. Read one of his chapters, and then look in the chart for my corresponding chapter, so you get his understanding, systematic theology—again, what are we to believe, do, and be today on this topic in the light of all that Scripture affirms?

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And then read my chapter, how do we come to believe what we believe about that particular doctrine? That's one strategy.

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Another strategy would just be, pick a doctrine of interest, and then read its historical development in the chapter.

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Dr. Allison, I don't know how many interviews you've done for this new book. Probably quite a few, and many more you will do, but I don't think anybody's going to ever ask you this question.

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So, let me come up with a unique question. What was the postage that you paid for the first manuscript that you sent to Zondervan?

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I actually sent it electronically. Oh, you did.

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You know why I'm asking the question, though. What's that? You know why I'm asking the question. Is it, in fact—was it, in fact, the largest manuscript, the longest they had ever received?

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It was the longest, largest manuscript they had ever received—3 ,800 double -spaced pages mounted up on top of each other.

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It was 13 inches tall. But I did not mail it to him. I sent it to him electronically, knowing it would have been, what, dozens of dollars or hundreds of dollars?

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I have no idea, but I did save the postage on that. That is excellent.

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We're talking to Dr. Greg Allison at Southern Seminary with a new book, Historical Theology, the partner to Wayne Grudem's excellent

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Systematic Theology book, both on Zondervan. Dr. Allison, let's just jump into why historical theology is important.

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You give us many reasons in your introduction, but let's talk specifically about a current event, Rob Bell's book,

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Love Wins. For those who are listening, give us a little update on what Rob Bell teaches and then why a study of historical theology would prove beneficial to the layperson when they try to figure out, is this a biblical concept that Bell's promoting or is it not?

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Rob Bell, pastor of Mars Hill Church in the Grand Rapids area, in his recent book,

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Love Wins, affirms the possibility that God will eventually save all human beings, a position that would formally be called universalism, so that love wins and that God's grace and mercy and forgiveness in Jesus Christ will conquer every heart, will melt every heart so that every person eventually, in this lifetime, perhaps in the next lifetime after death, will eventually repent of sin and believe in Jesus Christ.

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That's his position. Then he makes the claim that the church has always entertained the possibility of such a universal salvation.

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I have an entire chapter devoted to the last judgment and eternal punishment, and if your listeners would read that section of my book, that chapter of my book, they would understand that Rob Bell's claim is absolutely untrue and completely bizarre.

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There have been a handful of writers, of theologians throughout the history of the church that have entertained this idea, but the church has always been very quick and very decisive to condemn this notion of universal salvation, condemn it just forthrightly.

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So a familiarity with historical theology would help us understand that Bell's position,

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Bell's claim, has no historical warrant for it. Well, Dr. Allison, I loved it in your introduction on page 26.

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You said, similarly, historical theology can guard Christians and churches from the penchant for the novel, the yearning for relevancy, and the tendency to follow strong leaders who are biblically and theologically shallow.

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Isn't that exactly what we're talking about here? I didn't have it in mind, but I think the description fits.

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Coining bizarre new doctrines, you said, such as health, wealth, and prosperity gospel, tampering with traditional doctrines, such as minimizing the need for repentance from sin as part of the response to the gospel, and following dynamic leaders who boastfully minimize the importance of sound doctrines are exposed as dangerous developments by consideration of what the church has historically believed are not believed.

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I think that is excellent tonic for the church today. Dr. Allison, give us a little bit more background on why a person should study historical theology.

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I think maybe my mind says, when I was uneducated, that it was kind of boring, it was dry, it really wasn't that devotional.

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Isn't there a devotional aspect to studying church history? And if so, what is it?

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There certainly is. Let me define historical theology for your listeners.

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As I understand historical theology, and as I have presented it, historical theology is the study of the interpretation of Scripture and the formulation of doctrine by the church in the past.

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So historical theology, by definition, emphasizes how the church has interpreted, understood

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Scripture and also how it's developed its theology. Now Scripture and theology really are at the foundation of the church, and so studying historical theology will give us a very strong foundation.

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It will help us to understand the difference, like we just talked about, between orthodoxy, what the church must believe, and heresy, what the church must turn from, must reject.

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It also presents great examples to us of courage and faith, hope, standing strong in the midst of persecution, love, obedience to the

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Lord, and so forth. The history of the church is very rich in terms of people who have given up their very life for the sake of Jesus Christ and sound doctrine, and those stellar examples really do enrich us as Christians today and the church today.

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And also, as you speak about devotional idea here, I think it can help us, historical theology, can help us to gain a sense of our rootedness with the past.

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We really are part of a great legacy, a heritage of the church from the past.

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Helps us give us a sense of rootedness, that we're not in this alone, we're not the inventors of doctrine, we're not inventors of the church today.

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We really have inherited great wisdom from the past, and that encourages us,

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I think, as we act and as we are the church today, to go forward strongly for Jesus Christ.

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We're talking to Dr. Greg Allison today on No Compromise Radio. You can go to Amazon or any of the large booksellers to pick up Historical Theology on Zondervan.

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You can also go to sbts .edu, sbts .edu, and look up some more information on Dr.

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Allison, listen to some of his messages as well. Dr. Allison, as we said before the show off air,

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I really appreciate your desire and drive to send people to Historical Theology to even have hope, knowing that Jesus Christ is building his church.

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There are so many false doctrines out there, like Bell is espousing, and all kinds of false teachers, seemingly every channel that we turn on television, but Christ is building his church, and Historical Theology helps us to be reminded of that fact, doesn't it?

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Absolutely. As you read the various chapters in my book about the development of doctrine, this is a common pattern.

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Someone teaching false doctrine will rise up in the church and even begin to lead the church astray, will seek to take it in an unbiblical direction.

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And then God will raise up champions of sound doctrine who will, even at the cost of their own life, at great risk to themselves, will demand attention to scripture, will rehearse what sound doctrine is, will champion the cause of Jesus Christ and his truth despite these many attacks and these many heresies.

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And that's very refreshing for us today, again, to see Jesus has given us a promise in Matthew 16 that he will build his church, and he is indeed doing that through teachers, pastors, theologians, biblical scholars, common laypeople who know their doctrinal stance and who defend sound doctrine.

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Dr. Allison, you know I love to read—probably you do as well—Christian biographies, and they do the exact same thing that this book of yours,

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Historical Theology, does, and that is it refreshes me and it encourages me and it bolsters me to say yes to sound doctrine, no to false doctrine, and then see how

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God has used frail, sinful people, whether it's Luther or Polycarp, using those people to promote

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Christ Jesus, the sinless one. And I think it's actually very refreshing to read a historical theology book like yours, because it refreshes my soul like a biography does.

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Have people made comments about that? Let me connect, which is you said about Martin Luther. So here we have

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Martin Luther at the Diet of Worms. He is standing before, metaphorically speaking here, the entire

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German nation, represented by the Emperor who is calling him, along with the

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Church of his time, to recant of his views, to deny sound doctrine as Luther has understood it from the

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Word of God, justification by grace through faith alone, and matters like that. And Luther, with the

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God -given courage that he has, is able to face down the Catholic Church and the

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German Emperor at that point, and just say, you know, I'm going to take my stand on the

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Word of God, I can do no other, God help me. And that remarkable display of God -given courage should encourage us today to be just as passionate and firm about standing on the truth of God's Word.

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That is so true. Well, I like your book as well, Dr. Allison, because there are two different ways that you can tell our audience how to study historical theology, or two different kinds of books just in general.

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And the books that I usually would read would be Shelley, Bruce Shelley, or Gonzales, and he would have time frames, you know, during the

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Middle Ages, this is what the Church believed. Tell us why your book is different, and explain the synchronic versus diachronic method, and why it's important for a person to grab the difference.

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Sure. Most historical theology books, most Church history books, lead with chronological development.

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So, the beginning of the book will have the early Church and discuss its doctrine, the canon of Scripture, the person of Jesus Christ, the work of Jesus Christ, the

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Church, the hope of the Church, and so forth. It will then, as it moves through the book, it will go into the

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Middle Ages, the Medieval period, and discuss the development of those doctrines, then into the

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Reformation period, post -Reformation period, again discussing the canon of Scripture, sufficiency of Scripture, the person and work of Jesus Christ, and then move into the

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Modern period, again discussing those doctrines. And so what we need to do is, if we're looking at, for example, the inerrancy of Scripture, we're going to have to go in the early part of the book, the early

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Church section, then into the Medieval period and look for that development of doctrine there, then the

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Reformation and post -Reformation period, what do they believe about the inerrancy of Scripture, then look in the Modern period, attacks against the inerrancy of Scripture and defense of it by the

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Modern Church. And it follows this chronological flow. Mine is completely different.

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It is organized topically. So if you, for example, want to understand the development of the doctrine of the inerrancy of Scripture, I have one chapter on it.

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In the beginning of the chapter, I state what the Church has historically believed, the Church has always affirmed, that God's Word affirms the truth and all of the truth, nothing but the truth.

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It stands for the inerrancy of Scripture. And then I move into the early

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Church, the Middle Ages, the Medieval period, Reformation and post -Reformation period, and then the

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Modern period, showing the chronological development of that one topic. So you have a concentrated chapter on whatever topic, whatever doctrine you're interested in, looking at it from the early

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Church to today in its historical development. The approach is completely unique. Well, I love the approach because I love to study theology, and so it almost tricks me because I don't really feel like I'm studying historical theology.

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I feel like I'm studying the doctrine of theology throughout time, and it is just a brisk read.

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I mean, it's a large book, but I have really enjoyed reading the book. I have to tell you, Dr. Allison, I just got the book, so I have not read all 784 pages yet, but I'm going to.

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Okay. We have about three minutes left. Are we evangelicals today?

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You've got a good section on what was an evangelical. Was it someone who was a Lutheran who came out of the

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Reformation, and then what an evangelical was during the Great Awakening? Do you call yourself an evangelical?

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If so, why, and how is it tied to historical theology? I do call myself an evangelical because I am an heir of the modern evangelical movement started by people like Carl F .H.

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Henry and Kenneth Konsor, and all of these were my professors. And we stand for certain things, like the centrality of the gospel, and the

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Church's commitment to announce the good news through evangelism and missions, and engagement with society, taking moral stands, and things like that.

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So I'm proud to be an evangelical. I'm at the same time hesitant to affirm that because the word evangelical has basically been so diluted that it can mean just about anything, including people who hold to bizarre ideas like universal salvation, annihilation of the unjust, various views of the

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Atonement, denying that Christ died to assuage the wrath of God. All these people still claim to be evangelicals, so what does the word mean anymore?

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So I do embrace the term, but with hesitancy, I think we have to clearly define it.

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I would consider myself, call myself a conservative evangelical, in line with the trajectory that was laid down by these beginners of the modern evangelical movement, like Carl FH.

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Henry, Kenneth Konsor, and others. Why is this important? We in terms of historical theology as evangelicals, we have a great legacy, not only from the

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Church in the early period and medieval period, but we also have a great heritage from the

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Reformation, justification by God's grace through faith and Scripture alone. We have great Reformation principles, of which we're heirs, and we also have a great evangelical legacy of compassion for the lost, a deep commitment to missions, the missional endeavor of the

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Church and evangelism, and the centrality of the gospel. So I am an evangelical in that sense.

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We've been talking to Dr. Greg Allison, professor of Christian theology at Southern Seminary, and I hope you, the listener, can tell that Dr.

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Allison is fired up about the gospel and about Christ Jesus, and I think your enthusiasm, Greg, comes through in the book.

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And so if you're afraid of a massive tome or a historical theology book, I want you to know when you read, you the listener, when you read his book, it sounds like the way he talks.

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Does that make sense, Dr. Allison? It does. It does. And you have been, like other people, affirming that how

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I write is also how I talk. And I hope readers will pick that up, and I hope your audience will as well.

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These are crucial matters, isn't it? As we've just mentioned, it's about the gospel of Jesus Christ, and that's what we're passionate about.

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And historical theology can help move the Church ahead, as historical theology keeps the

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Church on track in terms of focused on the gospel. Absolutely. Well, you can read any chapter and be encouraged.

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I also love the chapter on interpretation. That was something new compared to Grudem's. Dr. Allison, we have run out of time, 24 and a half minutes.

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Thank you for doing this show, No Compromise Radio. You can write us at infoatnocompromise .com.

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Dr. Allison, thank you. Thank you so very much. No Compromise Radio with Pastor Mike Abendroth is a production of Bethlehem Bible Church in West Boylston.

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Bethlehem Bible Church is a Bible teaching church firmly committed to unleashing the life -transforming power of God's Word through verse -by -verse exposition of the sacred text.

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Please come and join us. Our service times are Sunday morning at 1015 and in the evening at 6. We're right on Route 110 in West Boylston.

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You can check us out online at bbchurch .org or by phone at 508 -835 -3400.

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The thoughts and opinions expressed on No Compromise Radio do not necessarily reflect those of WVNE, its staff, or management.