Counseling Series: Communication and Anger

Can you show me because we're gonna use some hermeneutics. Can you show me anywhere in the Old Testament where that word perpetual is not perpetual because again, I understand you're appealing again. Sure.

Wait a minute, I thought I was gonna get to have a talk. You asked a question. Hang on a second, sir.

Be quiet. No, listen, there you go. I will mute you because it's not your show. You asked the question. I'm gonna give you the answer Genesis 6 for the word Olam is used referring to those who were of old Deuteronomy, I'll get just rattle off all the ones where it's used not referring to perpetual Genesis 6 for Deuteronomy 32 7 Joshua 24 to 1st Samuel 27 8 Job 22 15 Psalm 247 24 9 25 6 41 13 77 9 90 verse 2 103 verse 17 106 verse 48 119 52 1 fit before you 3 3rd verse 3 Proverbs 8 23 Proverbs 22 28 Proverbs 23 10 and Ecclesiastes 110.

Should I go on for more?

Blah blah blah blah blah.

To answer your questions. Your host. From striving for eternity ministries.

Blah blah blah blah blah. I always love that one. Welcome. This is Apologetics live. I'm your host Andrew rap report. We are live. We're here to answer any questions you have about God and the Bible. We can answer every single question that you have on the subject of God and the Bible if you doubt that.

Well, then just come right on in go to apologetics live .com. Scroll down till you see a little stream yard icon. Click on the duck. Join us. Just remember one thing. I Don't know is a perfectly good answer.

Introduction to Biblical Counseling and the Fall Schedule

All right. So what we're gonna cover tonight is we're gonna start our counseling series that we're gonna do all through September. We're gonna be dealing it start us off with something. None of you ever have to deal with Communication problems right a no one deals with that.

We're gonna deal with communication we're gonna deal with issues of anger. Those are the two that we have scheduled for tonight. We're gonna cover other issues in the future. We're going to cover marriage and parenting next week.

Anxiety and depression the week after that. Money and sexual sins possibly after that. We'll see how far we go because we may end up dropping one off and picking it up. So we will see how far we get with the different issues.

Drew is not here, but I'm gonna have a new kind of co-host here.

Mr. Dan craft. How are you, sir? I'm doing well. How are you Andrew. Better than I deserve?

So Dan is Possibly coming in on board with striving for attorney. We're still talking about it having him come in as one of the speakers. He did an outstanding job in Arizona.

I don't know if those if the videos are the videos online. Do you know they are? I have. I have posted the original live stream on edited live stream and I've also posted a mild a slightly edited version to eliminate some of the places where I got tongue-tied and.

Actually where you were weeping though, right?

Cut out the entire message. And I else I also embedded the PowerPoint presentation Into the video itself. So you're not looking at the video of a video. So that is available on my youtube channel and as well as on my channel on rumble.

Okay, and so you're the easiest way to get to the any of my presentations though is to go to seven foot apologist comm Speaking and you'll see video links to just about everything that I've done. Seven foot apologist because you're only four foot tall.

That's that's good five foot five foot twenty four to be exact if I foot.

I had one friend who said he was six foot twelve because he just he hated to actually say seven foot.

Yeah, I had a guy who said he says how tall you is and I said, I'm 524 says you ain't no five feet. I said, you're right. I'm 612. He goes. I would have thought you were seven foot at least I.

Current Events, Politics, and a Text About the Election

Withhold so in we usually start off with it kind of in the news section, but I Figured this would be really not in the news. But interesting. Well in the news what we could do Is we they did finally release the 900 page?

I don't know diary or whatever from the the girl that did the shooting at the Christian school. Mm-hmm and yeah, they said the reason they couldn't release it is because this girl had details of her plan of attacking the school and Someone who read all 900 pages said the thing that was missing was any details of the attack on the school.

Oh, of course. No. Hmm.

Yes, I guess what they really didn't want it for is because it was completely laced with I mean I read through some of it completely. Laced with white hatred. You know transgenderism and all that and blaming her, you know Christianity and conservatives, but I Know I know a pair of our guests already heard this but you know, this would be fun.

I was hoping to watch Drew's face when I read this. But I wanted to read a text that I got not once but I've got this now three times. And I'm gonna read the text. I got then I'll read my response and I just want you to know even after my response I Actually got two more texts After the response I gave so this will be fun for you.

But this was a text I got. Hi Andrew, this is Maya with the Jewish Democrats. We know there is a lot at stake in this election and we want to thank you for being a voter. Can we count on your support for Kamala Harris for president?

Or As Dan starts choking Paid for by JD CA PAC not authorized by any candidate or candidates candidate committee. So here's my response Dan. My response was there is a lot at stake and that is why no Jewish person should or can vote for the Democrats.

Biden opened the door for For war against Israel by freeing up six million dollars to Iran. Who funded the attack that funded the October 7th attack? The Democrats have been foaming anti-semitism. So yes, you can count on me and every Jewish person that I know to vote for Trump.

Even many many that previously voted for Biden, please shut down your organization immediately. I'm sure they'll get right on that. The response I got was okay. Have a great day. And a week later she texted me the same thing Under a different name that that one Jordan and then I got another one Moments later from from Leah.

So they they obviously didn't read what I said.

Well, they didn't put you in their database. They're just you know, you know how that works, right? Yeah. Oh, it's all robo-robo I.

Was quite shocked. It does tell me that they're there after foaming anti-semitism. They're desperate to get the Jewish vote back. They just don't want it to do publicly. I mean they could have Taken my governor Josh Shapiro and made him the vice president pick because he was he he was giving up his position on Israel to get that that spot and then they Rejected him because he's Jewish so hmm.

But let we will have. Aaron Brewster will be coming in late for regulars here. You know that Aaron is teaching on on Thursday nights. So he comes in a bit late. He will be joining us. And I should say now if you guys can just share this out right now on different social media.

So that others will know about this. Let me first bring in someone who might if you're a regular listener at the Christian podcast community. I'll bring in. Mr Anthony Russo. Anthony is with grace and peace radio.

He hasn't been doing it for a while because he's been a bit busy. We might hear why but he recently became an ACBC counselor. And he also is now joining striving for eternity as one of our speakers.

So welcome to apologetics live. Anthony, thank you very much. It's great to be here good to be.

Back behind the microphone with you. Yeah, I was just gonna say that and I don't think this is your first time on apologetics live. I think it is. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. All right, and I'm really excited. Because the next well two guests I'm gonna bring in is actually my pastor and his wife who are both ACBC counselors.

Pastor Dan and Robin Scogin welcome to apologetics live and you're muted. He's gonna go get it. Thank you for having us so. The purpose of this is to talk about different counseling issues. And we the four of us or the five of us really in the four of you All ACBC counselors Aaron Anthony and then Dan and Robin all being ACBC counselors we came up with different topics that you guys thought as counselors deal with often and we figured an order of of Kind of importance or ones that we thought You know deal with a lot.

Anthony you had the idea of starting with kind of an introduction to counseling which really was like duh. Why didn't I think of that? I Guess we take for granted, you know what counseling is and what biblical counseling is but let me just first throw this one out.

I'll start with you, you know Anthony. What is biblical counseling? And when we say that there's people that go. Oh, so your way is the only way What would what in your mind would make counseling biblical versus not biblical?

Biblical Counseling, Soul Care, and the Sufficiency of Scripture

Yeah, that's a that's a great question a great way to kick it off. First of all It's helpful to understand that there's a there's a spectrum there's a continuity line of of Counseling of how do you deal with life's problems and issues, right?

In the 1800s or so you started to see the the secular counseling developed through Freud and others after him and. So that whole model took over prior to that. It was really more of called soul care and we even have one of the Puritans writing about how to deal with life issues Richard Baxter in his Christian directory but then through The Enlightenment and so forth and secularism then you had the secular counseling.

Well then. And that really said look Pastors ministers aren't equipped to deal with life issues. Weak we can do this better. And so. That's a short version but then on the other end of the spectrum you've got this this biblical counseling which says no no, no.

No, we're we're we're creating the image of God. God made us God gave us a book God's given us everything we need for life and godliness. The scriptures are sufficient where the scriptures deal with life's problems and Then in the middle of that there are some who say you know what?

This is good over here. This is good over here. I'm gonna try to marry these two and make this work and that's often called Christian counseling or integrationist because integrating so that's really kind of the main spectrum of counseling.

So as biblical counselors, what we do is again We bring the Word of God to bear instead of as someone has said Instead of man trying to solve man's problems from within the the fishbowl. We go to the Lord into the his word and say okay.

Well, what does God say about us? He made us. So what does his word say and and he's the lawgiver and so forth? So that's kind of the the difference between those we're not Biblical counseling is not Therapeutic as you you think of it.

Many of us I think most Many of us are not like we don't do state licensure anything like that. It's not that we Practice therapy without a license. This is really important. We don't do that. We are Christians Discipling in the Christian faith.

So what we're doing is presenting the Christianity and how the Bible tells us to live.

All right. So pastor Dan and Robin. I should just mention this actually want to introduce you the pastor Dan you've been pastoring 26 years now, I believe at Oxford Valley Chapel in Levittown, New Pennsylvania so almost said New Jersey after living in New Jersey for 53 years.

I still sometimes say but you know and Anthony and I are both out of New Jersey, but so. First off one thing I should say is yeah. So for you and for Robin how long have you guys been doing? ACBC counseling and the question I'd I'd have for you is you know when it comes to an introduction of counseling How would you see the difference between a biblical counseling we do with ACBC versus secular counseling, I think I got my.

Certificate back in about 1992 and Robin Followed me after that. So we've been doing this for a little while. There's been several differences that we've seen historically. Historically. Within even the counseling movement.

Biblical counseling movement back in the day Coming from Lafayette, Indiana were Bill Good and Bill Smith were primarily the ones putting that together as the certifying agency of CCEF they were. The model there was that going back to Paul and Romans 15 Where he says you are competent to counsel.

He the model was. More of all lay people can do it. He was. They were on the idea that The Bible was sufficient and it was just basically a ministry of the local church. Now that has changed even within the biblical counseling movement and people are Changing it to become an occupation to support their families.

Yep. There we go. I had to find the right button there a question that Fatima has for us and She is from the Philippines. So it is 8 in the morning there. So eight or nine I think. So her question is is it advisable for non-christians to Consider biblical counseling for their life issues.

I don't know which of you might want to take that one. But what do you think? Is it advisable for non-christians to consider biblical counseling for their life issues?

Well, let me jump in and say yes. I would absolutely hope that she would for several reasons because first of all we believe in the Sufficiency of the Bible. To meet the problems of man is first or second.

Peter one says He's given us all things that pertain to life and godliness. So As we were spoken earlier by Dan, I believe it was. I'm not sure God created us God knows our problems and God has the answers to fix us.

But that would be the felt need. I would like to think that if she came in seeking biblical counseling She would realize her real need and that would be her.

Faith and trust in Jesus Christ. Yes, Jesse is saying it's a good open door to evangelize and I would think I mean my view would be yeah. I mean, they're you're gonna get a better counseling because the world's the world style of counseling is really.

You know, they have it backwards. We would say from the scripture you start with your thinking get your thinking, right? Your feelings will be right. You'll do right where the world says no let's let's talk about doing doing right and then you'll eventually feel right and then you'll think right and That is a great way to keep people coming back to you as a counselor.

Yeah, and and another thing too if I could throw this in there is Like Dan said, you know, it's great for all of those reasons but also Really we want to show people the beauty of Christ the beauty of what life is meant to be What God has called us to and what he offers us in Christ and the freedom and the grace and the forgiveness and all those Blessings.

So yeah, so exactly we want to share that with people and So really when when a non-christian comes for biblical counseling We get to lay all that out and explain it and that can take you know, I can take months.

You know, whatever weeks or months and ultimately a person can either Choose. Okay. I want to pursue this. I want to know God more that this God of the Bible more. And then it really does, you know become Evangelism and then Lord willing they get saved and it becomes discipleship.

But we don't want people to just walk away with Unbelievers to walk away with just life tips, you know because ultimately We don't we don't want them to just end up in in hell, you know, we want to point them to the Savior.

So. But definitely yeah, great question.

Communication as a Heart Issue

Yeah, so so let's get into the discussion. The first topic that we had is Communication and I know no one has ever had communication issues. Maybe we can get Big Dan to explain, you know, his communication issues.

He had with Shaq on a court, you know. Because I think you may have had. For folks who don't watch bad basketball Shaq is a very well-known I had to be told this but Shaq is a very well-known player in basketball.

You had communication issues with him didn't you?

Well, you know the first communication problem we had was, you know, he just did not understand that. You know when he came into the paint that he was not, you know I was not just gonna roll over or step aside and let him abuse the rim.

That just wasn't gonna happen. So I had to let him know, you know. That's not gonna happen here. And of course, he was a bit agitated afterwards in which case we exchanged some words and you know, the rest is history.

I Mean I'm trying. You know, he was. He's very stubborn about it. He kept trying to dunk on me and I kept saying no you won't be doing that today.

Not many people can say they stuffed on on Shaq I'm sure but so I mean communication is I think a good one to a good topic to start on because if we think about it Everything else we're gonna deal with think about anger marriage parenting.

You know a lot of these are gonna come back to communication issues. And so a lot of the problems I I think in counseling Is is comes to communication. Fact when I was in seminary that the two areas they said anytime I'm married I'm counseling a married couple.

The two areas that I'm gonna be counseling in is Communication and money and I kind of have found that to be pretty true. So, you know, let me let me ask this of pastor Dan first and say, you know, why what do you think is The cause what we have so many communication issues.

Between people. Well, I think the primary reason I know this is just a broad word, but it's sin. Going way back to the Garden of Eden, you know when we disobeyed God. You know, we see all kinds of brokenness right at the get-go and it is just perpetuated.

Robin anything you want to you want to add. I.

Think our society does not hurt. It does not help our communication. I don't think. Social media and other things has just made it our communication more harsh. More self-centered and more thoughtless and I think that that filters into our relationship and our marriages.

That's a good point. I didn't I didn't even think about bringing that up is the social media aspect because I think that that probably has changed a lot of the way people communicate. I mean People will communicate online typing and say things they would never say in person.

Yeah, yeah, oh, yeah.

We have a word for that called keyboard warriors, right?

Keyboard commando. Yeah. Yeah. So what I think is pretty interesting that when you take into account the whole social media thing, you know God gave us, you know to the old saying goes he gave us two ears two eyes and only one mouth.

But yet social media seems to invert that and when you get behind the keyboard, you know You you tend to speak more or output ten times more than you take in. So I. You know as I as I interact with people online or you know.

Just in my own family or whatever I find that a lot a large part of the problem of miscommunication is failure to listen. And a failure a lack of desire to understand the other person. It seems like we usually come to especially when you're talking about, you know.

Doctrinal issues doctrinal disagreements or whatever worldview issues. We come fully entrenched in our own position and we're only interested in defending our own view not learning from the other person saying hey.

Is there something I can learn from this other guy? Even though perhaps he may come from a different theological camp that I do.

Give it cease. The person is gonna say, of course I'm gonna I'm gonna be ten times more online because I got eight fingers and two thumbs. So that's ten. Precisely. But you you raise a really good Issue with communication because I think what most people think of when we talk communication is me doing the talking.

Let me put this question out. How important is listening.

Yeah, I was gonna say we both both Rob and I said James one, you know be swift to hear. Slow to speak and slow to wrap. So swift to hear slow to speak. Amen.

Yeah, I mean. For some people it seems that comes easier than others. I'm just thinking of. I'm thinking of the people that that I have come across where they're. You could tell they're not really listening because they're just waiting for them to get the next line in.

Yeah, they're just thinking of what they want to say next as as a counselor. How how do you deal with that? Like how do you deal with someone that they come to you for help? And they think they got all the answers and they're they're trying to they're trying to.

Tell you what what they should do. Have you had that happen?

Yeah, I think You know one of the things that's that's interesting with with biblical counseling Versus the secular model is in the secular model oftentimes. It's The the hour or so is spent in the person who's coming in for counseling doing doing all the talking and There is a lot of that up front as The the biblical counselor.

Here's what what the life problem is is and that sort of thing and maybe ask some questions but Fundamentally one of the big differences also is that in biblical counseling? Week to week to week. It's not the person coming in who's doing a lot of or most of the talking It's the biblical counselor and that's because It's biblical counseling is Christian discipleship.

Like I said earlier, so it you're trying to to equip people with with what does God say so Again if a person comes in and they they may have to be told that and explained that and it's not that you're just trying to run roughshod over them and that you don't care what Happened week to week to week you you do but most of that hour is spent in well Let's see what God says about your problem so that's a fundamental difference there that.

Dan craft, how would Proverbs. What insight could would Proverbs give to us?

Well, as we were sitting here talking about this the The first verse that came to mind is Proverbs 18 to which says a fool does not delight in understanding. But in revealing his own mind, which goes to just goes to show you.

You know, we're so quick to just spit things out and let other people deal with the consequences. And you contrast that with Proverbs 1 7, which is you know, the fear of Yahweh is the beginning of knowledge but fools despise wisdom and instruction and it's just You see foolishness abounding on social media like leave tick-tock out of it.

Just all those all the foolish videos. Just the things that people say alone. Is well enough to the reveal the foolishness bound up in the heart of all these, you know. These adult children roaming around on social media.

Well.

Listening, Repeating Back, and Understanding

Yeah, as Dan Pastor Dan or Robin it so much of the So much of the counseling is gonna is deals with communication issue. A lot of it seems to deal with communication issues and so I Want to focus in on first the listening part, you know.

Are there? Are there things we can help people with learning to be better listeners? Are there things? You know you get a husband and wife that come to you and They're just talking right past each other.

What kind of things would help a couple like that to start to learn to listen to one another better?

Well, I'll start by tying that into the other question about communication it is a skill. Communication is a skill just like anything else. Some people naturally are Quick to speak and some people might be slow to speak.

Some people might be more thoughtful some people more careless doesn't matter. It's not an excuse That behavior it explains it but doesn't excuse it. Communication is a skill. So then tying that into something else that was said a lot of times people that come to us Come as a last resort.

Because they've already tried secular counselors who in their case was not able to help them because they're Listening and maybe validating their feelings Rather than helping them to change their thought patterns.

And so they come to us once we start explaining work in this case how communication works. How it comes from the heart according to Matthew how you can't control your mouth so you have to control your heart how your words matter.

And once you start doing those things and they see that it works and the relationship is changing from hostile to Cordial to sweet they continue to Grow and want to hear more. And then some of those specific specific skills that we would use would be to have them repeat back What the person just said?

So, you know many times we're discipling Two people one person will say something and then I'll look at the other person and say now Tell me what you just heard and it is surprising how many times they don't get it, right?

And then there's two reasons for that person a may not be clearly Communicating what wants to be said and that sometimes is a case but more often than not person B just has not Developed the skill to listen for understanding.

Most of us just listen for a retort how to rebuff how to defend but we truly don't listen for understanding. So to answer your question, one of the techniques we use is we just say repeat back what this other person just said.

That's that's a really good piece of advice because I Remember when I was in seminary to my first counseling class and Professor just said okay when you're if you're communicate if you're sitting down counseling a couple.

There's five levels of communication. There's what the husband thinks he said. There's what the wife thinks she said what the husband heard. What the wife heard and then what really was said? You know and that's where the confusion is is that it's just because it's clear in in our head.

Doesn't mean that it's always clear in someone else's right because sometimes I know a lot of times People will will have a context in their head, you know this happens a lot of married couples where you're thinking something and You just say something to your spouse.

And not realizing in pride any context and it's like what are you thinking? And so yeah that that there's there's a lot of different factors To that and I think that you know when I teach evangelism training one of the things I teach is exactly what you said Pastor Dan is the fact that.

It's easy to listen for retort. It's easy to listen to figure out how to get jabbed in or Say something just to to. You know Basically like attack someone's what they're saying. Versus when I what I do is ask questions and the reason I do that is because questions make us think differently.

We're gonna respond differently because we don't want anyone throwing darts at what we're saying. We're listening to throw darts at what they're saying. We don't want them doing it to us. We think through it better.

So when I evangelize I want people thinking so I tend to ask a lot of questions just for that reason.

And one of my favorite questions to suggest to people is What did you mean by that? Just give the other person a chance. There are so many times that we hear things wrong or we read it wrong. And if we just say what did you mean by that that really clears up?

50 of arguments before they even get going.

Now Dan craft. There's probably a book you're thinking with that question a.

Couple hey if I want if I if I may I want to interject my own little a little personal anecdote here. I had a coach in junior college who was Extremely difficult to he was a very difficult personality very.

Let's just say yeah. He had hit the mouth of a drunken sailor and he had no compunctions about just you know. Going up one side and down the other and just chewing you out. And I had a teammate take me aside once and he said and this is a lesson that has stuck with me for you know over over 25 years.

He says Dan he's yeah, I know he's a difficult person, but he's a great coach. Focus on what he's saying not on how he's saying it. Now and I'm I want to be quick to point out that this is something that is good when you're on the receiving end.

Not when you're on the delivering end. You shouldn't expect your audience to focus on your on your words and ignore your delivery, right? But I think it's really helpful at times to just be you know, try to filter that out say, okay.

What is this person actually trying to say to me regardless of how they're doing it. What is he trying to say and then get into what Robin said ask questions, right? Like what do you mean by that? And am I do I under you know echo back to them, right?

These are you know standard communication things to echo. Am I understanding you correctly? You're saying such-and-such and so that makes them feel listened to and hopefully, you know kind of Takes the the escalation down a little notch.

And that's exactly right because many of the frustrations that we hear in the counseling session are With multiple people is that sometimes they just don't feel understood they've not truly been able to.

I just don't think he or she really understands what I'm. Going through her feelings. So you're right Dan, you know just added ability to be Acknowledged is it goes a long ways.

See what do a Bill Clinton to say? I feel your pain. I.

Think people also nowadays tend to be more petty and more harsh more than more than past generations. Pettiness and harshness and also teaching people first Peter and Proverbs that love covers a multitude of sin.

And to choose your battles if it repeats or if it's strong. Go ahead and fight that battle, but there's so many little things that we can let go. We don't always have to be right and.

You know, I I think you know, I'll probably bring this up when we talk about marriage. But it really gets into a communication issue as well. There's a book. I often quote the title of it that. The book itself probably.

I haven't read the book but knowing the author I'm not thinking it's all that solid. But the title captures a lot of what I deal with in marriage counseling. I'm perfect. I just want my spouse to be also and.

That's so much of the marriage counseling, but a lot of that is the communication. It's like you have one one per one party that is. Or sometimes both parties that are just looking like I'm not doing anything wrong.

It's all the other person.

Yeah, and a lot of times in marriage you have you know couples that are having serious communication issues. They say well, you know I know a couple that they described their relationship this way for the first 15 years of our marriage.

You know, they said the two become one flesh. We were just trying to figure out which one we were going to become. Yeah.

Yeah, I mean I Think that we Do not take put enough thinking into when we come to someone who's a counselor of Just Really listening to what they're saying. I mean, I think Robin you said it. Well in effect that typically when a person especially if it's marriage Typically by the time a couple comes to a counselor for counseling It's it's usually kind of almost too late very often you know because they've they've already become so embittered with one another and their their Language with one another communication with each other is so filled with barbs and digs That by the time they get to the counselor It's kind of almost like a lot of times the last-ditch effort.

Like, okay, we've we've tried everything else we're gonna do this just to. Because we got to try and figure it out it almost as if going to the counselor is gonna be the magic pill That's gonna solve all our communication issues that we haven't been dealing with for all these years.

That's a double-edged sword. I agree with you. The other end of that though is When they for the first time see progress if they are willing to work at it that marriage has changed 100 of the time they're not willing to work on it and think that you can just give them that magic pill.

Then there's no hope because the bad habits are there. But when they see after years of no hope that hope finally there that's exciting. And I also wanted to comment on what you said earlier about I'm I'm awesome.

I just wish my spouse was two or something like that. I'm perfect. I just wish my spouse was two. Yeah, that just reminds me that the I love when Dan counsels and he talks about the greater sinner. Because we always think our sin is smaller.