June 7, 2018 Show with Heather Watkins on “Guidelines for Adopting Children” AND Mark Lukens on “An Update on the Anti-Christian Discrimination Against Couples Desiring to Adopt in Massachusetts”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio

platform on which pastors, Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues

facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, iron sharpens iron, so one

man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, quote, we are cautioned to take heed whom we

converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another

wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour, and we hope to hear

from you, the listener,.

With your own questions.

Now here's our host.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth.

We're listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

This is Chris Arnson, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Thursday on this seventh day of

June 2018, and I am so delighted that my dear friend of

many years, going back to the 1980s, Pastor Bill Shishko, host of a Visit to the Pastors Study,

and the director of Reformation Metro New York, which is a

parachurch ministry under the oversight of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church, I'm so delighted that

he strongly urged me to interview my guest today, who is a first -time guest

to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, and I'm excited about the program she will be on for the first 90

minutes of the broadcast.

Her name is Heather Watkins.

She's the mother of three adopted children and wife of Dr. Eric B. Watkins, who is the

senior pastor of Covenant Presbyterian Church, which is an Orthodox Presbyterian congregation

in St. Augustine, Florida, and we are going to be addressing, for the first 90 minutes of the broadcast,

guidelines for adopting children.

The last half hour of the program, we are going to be visited by a returning guest, Pastor Mark

Lukens, who is the biological parent of six children and adoptive parent of

seven children, and he's the pastor of Providence Baptist Church in Norfolk, Massachusetts, and a

sponsor of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

He is going to be giving us an update on the anti -Christian discrimination against couples desiring to adopt

in Massachusetts.

But first of all, we are going to, as I said, be welcoming for the very first time to Iron Sharpens Iron

Radio, Heather Watkins.

It's a joy to have you on the program today.

Thank you so much.

And I'm going to give our email address out right now for listeners interested in

asking questions.

And of course, as always, please give us at least your first name, your city and state and your country of residence if you live

outside the USA.

And please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

And I could obviously readily understand why a subject like this would

lend itself to someone wanting to remain anonymous on certain questions.

So we will grant you that request.

But if it's not a personal and private matter, then please give us at least your first name, city and state and country of residence.

Well, before I go into your personal background, as we always do with a first -time guest getting their

personal testimony of salvation, what kind of religious upbringing you had and what

providential circumstances the Lord used in your life to draw you to himself

and save you.

Before we go into that, I want to hear something about Covenant Presbyterian Church, which is, as I

said before, a member of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church denomination in St. Augustine, Florida.

And I know that your husband, as I mentioned just a minute ago, is Dr. Eric B. Watkins, the pastor of that

congregation.

Tell us something about that church.

Yes, we at Presbytery planted the church

10 years ago.

We just celebrated our 10th anniversary.

We were able to particularize the same year that we began services.

It was truly what is called a parachute plant.

There was an idea, but no core group whatsoever.

And by God's grace, not only do we have a church building now, but we

are looking—our intern just arrived yesterday from

Canada, and Lord willing, in the next year, we'll be looking at planting a church

nearby with another family in our church, planting a

second daughter plant nearby as well in the next two years.

Oh, praise God.

And we will be giving contact information for that congregation before you leave us

today.

But now let's hear something about your own childhood, your own

upbringing as a child, what kind of religious atmosphere you were raised in, if any, and how you

eventually came to know Jesus Christ as your Lord, God, and Savior, and

had embraced the gospel.

And of course, I'd also love to hear how you came to embrace the Reformed faith.

Well, I was one of those people that was brought up in a Christian family.

It was not Reformed, but I never knew it when I did not know and love the Lord.

I am actually a third -generation pastor's wife.

Wow.

My dad was a Baptist minister, and when I was 15, we went

over to Barcelona, Spain, where he did one term as a missionary

at an institute, a Bible institute over there.

And I'm the eldest, my two

brothers and my sister below me.

So we are a family of two boys and two girls, just like my husband is a family of two boys and two

girls.

We were one of the pioneers in homeschooling back when

homeschooling was not done.

And we just always loved the Lord.

We were very close -knit family, but very not Reformed.

And so, which is totally fine.

When I was in college, I came home to visit my parents.

My dad was an interim president of a very small Bible college.

And I met a man there who thankfully did not tell me that day that he had decided upon first

seeing me that I was the one he was going to marry.

He played his cards far more carefully than that.

That could be kind of a scary thing I'm imagining.

I'm talking about the other way that God told me I'm going to marry you.

And Eric had grown up in a non -Christian family, a military family, and had gotten

saved following the Grateful Dead cross -country.

A person had given him a Bible and his brother's name was Mark.

And on a bus trip, he opened up the Bible, read the book of Mark, and by the time he got off the bus,

he was a saved young man and very desirous to learn more about the Bible, to

preach or tell people about the Bible, which turned into a desire to preach the gospel.

So, we got married and then immediately went out to

California.

He had heard what the dispensation Armenian background had to say

and wanted to see what the other side had to say.

He wanted to learn biblical languages and really study the Bible.

And that kind of narrowed it down to him at that time to Westminster East or Westminster West,

and he's a surfer.

So, we went west.

And I remember the day and the place that he came home and confessed to me that

he had become a Calvinist.

Confessed to you as if this was something horrible that he was hiding from you.

Yes.

Well, it was a difficult year for us.

It didn't matter as much to me whether I emotionally felt

that Calvinism was the proper way to look at the scripture, but I had

been raised in a very strong hermeneutical background, meaning the way that we

read the scriptures was through a lens of a non -reformed

framework.

And it wasn't until we were in a wonderful church out there, Harvest OPC,

that the love and care and just fellowship of the people

out there really wrapped their arms around me, helped me wrestle through

all of the questions I had, and it was actually on my way home from becoming a member that I realized

that the same God that for some arbitrary reason had saved me, had

made me a female, had me born in the 20th century, had me born in

America.

He also was the same person that gave me that grace completely

apart from myself and any works or anything that I could perform.

And it just began that transition to a more covenantal view of

scripture, and that was my first step towards Reformed Theology.

Well, I'm looking forward to having your husband, Dr. Eric, on

my program.

I did speak with him earlier this afternoon after I spoke with you, and he said that he would

be delighted to be a guest hopefully very soon on Iron Sherp and Zion Radio

to discuss the book that he wrote, The Drama of

Preaching.

So that is something that is a very compelling title,

so I'm looking forward to exploring that with him.

And that was also by very strong recommendation of our mutual friend Pastor Bill

Shishko, formerly the pastor of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church of Franklin Square and now

running Reformation Metro New York.

I probably made a mistake in the way that, in the title I gave him, I don't know if he's director, I don't know what,

I know that you Presbyterians always have these weird and fancy names for everything.

I have a friend who is the, the, what do they call him, the stated

supply of Knox Orthodox Presbyterian Church, and I said that's a horrible name.

It sounds like a, you know, one of those warehouses where you buy lumber or.

Licorice, you know, I mean it's just...

Well, the ongoing joke is so is the term Orthodox Presbyterian Church, but you know that's the

name that we ended up getting stuck with and we've learned to love it.

I'm assuming that because of the confusion many people think it's somehow connected to.

Eastern Orthodoxy maybe?

Yes, yes, that is a standing joke with people within the OPC.

Because of the confusion there, yes.

Well, I have grown to love it because I've grown to love so many brothers and sisters in Christ

from your denomination, and I look forward to having many more as guests on

this program.

They always seem to prove to be excellent guests when they're from the OPC.

Thank you.

But, well, now you've told us about how you met your husband and

the area of your lives that is directly connected to our subject is obviously

adoption.

You are the adoptive parents of three children, and why don't you tell us

about those circumstances, how this came to be, why this came to be, any

kind of battle you may have been going on in your minds

on whether or not to do this, any kind of anxiety or fear over this, etc.

If you could tell us all about this.

Story.

Definitely.

It is definitely my pleasure.

My husband and I very much so wanted to have two boys, two girls.

We wanted to have at least four children.

We wanted to be able to experience the blessing of burying children

biologically, and so we began trying to conceive a

couple years after we were married, and as time went on, realized that there

may be issues, and as we explored our options and what may have been causing the problems,

we discovered that when I was 11, I must have had appendicitis, and

my appendix exploded, and my body walled it off and absorbed it, and that's what caused my

infertility.

And at the time, it was a true Jacob wrestling with the Lord.

Why me?

Why would this happen?

My greatest dream in life to be shot down, and

there's just a beautiful section in one of Gerhardtus Voss's books that talks about

learning to kiss a striking Lord, and what I mean by that is, from

a Reformed perspective of understanding God's sovereignty, to be able to come to the point

where you say, God did this to me, and I wouldn't have it any other way,

because He knows best, and I trust Him.

And when we finally got to that point, we were finally ready to be

the parents that God was calling us to be, and I truly view our family,

our adoption story, as a calling now.

If I had to do over again, I wouldn't change a thing, not just because of everything that we have

learned about God, and about each other, and about ourselves, but because of

how hard we have worked for each one of these children, and the particular children that God

has sent our way,.

Each with their own broken stories.

Well, praise God for that.

Yes, Gerhardtus Voss phrased that quite beautifully.

Can you repeat that phrase?

Because I can recall having a fascinating interview on

Gerhardtus Voss a number of years ago, many years ago, on the old Iron Sherpins Iron radio broadcast,

broadcasting out of New York.

I did a couple of programs on Gerhardtus Voss, actually, and I know one of them was with

an OPC author.

In fact, it was Danny Olinger.

I.

Believe Danny's in the OPC, is he not?

Yes, yes, he's the one that makes the joke about our name.

How did Gerhardtus Voss phrase that?

Well, actually, I just remembered that particular.

Phrase was by Samuel Rutherford.

Gerhardtus Voss has a very similar one.

Samuel Rutherford is to learn to kiss a striking Lord, and

Gerhardtus Voss talks about when Mary entered into the tomb,

the darkness of the tomb, that we can only truly see his face and the glory and the beauty there

by walking through those dark places.

It's really the same concept with different phrases, and they're both just

very beautiful.

I have found that different hymns have spoken to me at different times,

and there's a hymn that falls right in line with this that says, Whatever my God ordains

is right, and there's this one part that says, Though now this cup in drinking

May bitter seem to my faint heart, I take it all in shrinking, because my God is

true.

Wow, praise God.

Well, you realized that because of your medical condition that you could not have

children.

Now take us to the next step.

Was adoption something that you both, both Eric, your husband, and you said, We have to

do this.

This is a necessity.

This is something we absolutely must move forward on, or was this something that you had to really pray

for God's will, even though you knew you could not have children, that you still weren't certain,

perhaps, that this was going to be the move you made?

I'm not sure what happened in your life.

God was very gracious, and we had actually wanted to adopt even before

we found out that we could not conceive any of our children.

So it ended up being a smoother process for us.

And yet, one of the things that is just so ironic to me

is we're still human.

We have three, they may not be perfect children, but they are perfect children for us.

And yet with each adoption, and you may not know, we are actually on the list to try to

adopt one more time, and pray very fervently every day for that.

We're hoping to adopt a girl some day soon.

And with every adoption, we still struggle with fear.

And something that has really been driven home to me this year

is the verse that says, there is no fear in love.

And just learning that even though we love our adoption story, and we love our adopted children, and we see

so very clearly God's hand in each one of their stories, yet we still fear and

forget that our God owns a.

Cattle on a thousand hills, and that He cares for us.

Well, you said that you already knew that you were intending to adopt or that you wanted to

adopt before you even realized that you could have not biological children of your own.

So as far as other couples out there, what do you think

needs to exist in a couple's lives,

and in their individual lives as people, and in their home, for such

an idea and such a very beautiful and wonderful thing?

A thing that mirrors in many ways the adoption of God the Father,

adopting His children, meaning we who are His elect, we who are His

children born again believers in Christ.

But obviously, this is not something to enter into lightly.

It's not something for every single couple, or individual, or family, or home.

So why don't you start telling us about what you think any couple

and family needs to seriously consider before even treading into these waters.

Right.

So the first thing I would say is the same piece of advice that we received before

getting married, is that one has to love the Lord more.

One of the things that can be a huge struggle for a couple, especially a couple struggling with

infertility, is trying to juxtapose the God -given desire

to have children and the struggle that

involves making that desire into an idol.

And if you cannot lay down at the cross of Christ

all of that pain, and all of that desire, and all of that hope, and say, your will

be done, it's difficult to be prepared to

truly appreciate and be ready to handle the unique struggles that

adoption brings.

So go further into that concept.

You know, you have families that are perhaps, they

want children to be added to their home, not only because they perhaps have

no children of their own yet, but sometimes they just have a heart of compassion.

They have a heart to see underprivileged children, children who are orphans,

children who may even be not on the top of the list at

orphanages.

They may be minority children that are overlooked, they may be handicapped disabled children, and I know

that in this day and age you got to be careful how you phrase things because there's politically correct language that we're supposed to use.

But there are all sorts of reasons that people want to adopt, but there are also

inherent things in certain individuals and couples and families that may remove them

from the loop of being appropriate candidates to do this.

Right.

Many people romanticize adoption.

I cannot tell you how often I'm at a store and it's mentioned that my children

have been adopted and the cashier will say, oh I've always wanted to adopt, I'm planning on adopting, which

is a noble thing to say.

But I think a lot of people romanticize the concept, almost a Hollywood

glamour about it, and it is a wonderful calling that

without the grace of God it is a very difficult road to

follow upon.

A lot of work, a lot of heartache.

I always say adoption is the life that follows death.

It many times is the death of the reproductive body, the death of innocence, death of dreams, families, of

ties, and yet through that death is born a family that grows stronger because of that child.

And I cannot stress enough if it is a calling to

not only really wrestle whether or not you have an internal calling, but also seek the

counsel of wise people both in the church and people that have gone on

before you in the adoption process.

We have people that have, as you said, they have biological children and they've

adopted as well from foster care situations, internationally,

infants, older, any different kind of situation.

And in each one of those, one was not better than the other, but it was what God

had particularly planned for their lives as being best for them.

And one of the ways they were able to determine.

That was through counsel of wise people.

And before we even go any further, I think something that I should have asked you in the very beginning,

I'd like you to tell us about your own adopted children, their ages and

names and so on.

Yes, so Kira is 11.

We say that she's 11 going on 30.

She is very firstborn, loves to read, and has an incredibly

maternal heart.

And our son Carl is 10, and he's the gregarious

joker of the bunch.

He actually has special needs.

Um, we did not discover that till later on, but we wouldn't change him for the world.

And we have an amazing church that just loves him exactly the way he is and a great

support network around.

And then we prayed and wrestled and prayed and wrestled for

several years.

And we had been on list for close to three years.

And one morning I was upstairs doing laundry.

I said, God, can you just give us a hospital drop off?

I'm ready for my William.

And half an hour later, we got a call.

We were the fourth people on the list.

He was a drug baby.

And yet in God's providence, he has completely healed and is

just our little joy.

He's now 19 months old.

And as I said before, we're hoping to be chosen someday soon for one last

girl.

So this was just as you said, it was a hospital drop off?

Yes, yes.

DCF was standing there ready to take him.

And we had 30 minutes to decide.

Wow.

So on those circumstances, this is something totally new to me.

In those circumstances, this can totally remove the long waiting

periods of adoptive parents?

There are no two adoptions alike.

Some people wait for 10 days after their home study has

been completed, and they're immediately placed.

Some people wait for five, six years, and some people are never placed.

Now this gets into the different kinds of adoption that there are.

All three of our children are what are called private adoptions.

Two of them were through an agency, Catholic Charities, and

one was through a lawyer.

And so if there were an adoption such as a

foster -to -adopt situation, or an international adoption, or a personal familial adoption,.

Those would look different.

And when we come back from our first station break, I'm going to have you go through some of those differences.

Sounds great.

And if anybody would like to join us, we do have a couple of people already waiting to have their questions asked and answered, and we'll get to you

as soon as possible.

Our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you

live outside the USA.

And please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

So don't go away, God willing, we will be right back after these messages with more of Heather Watkins and

guidelines for adopting children.

Thriving Financial is not your.

Typical financial services provider.

As a membership organization, we help Christians be wise with money and live generously every day.

And for the fourth year in a row, we were named one of the world's most ethical companies by the ethosphere

Institute, a leading international think tank dedicated to the creation, advancement and sharing of best

practices in business ethics.

Contact me, Mike Gallagher, financial consultant

at 717 -254 -6433.

Again, 717 -254 -6433 to learn more about the Thriving.

Difference.

Faith, finances and generosity.

That's the Thriving Story.

I am Chris Arnson, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, here to tell you about an exciting offer from World

Magazine, my trusted source for news from a Christian perspective.

Try World at no charge for 90 days and get a free copy of R .C. Sproul's book,

Relationship Between Church and State.

I rely on World because I trust the reporting.

I gain insight from the analysis and World provides clarity to the news stories that really matter.

I believe you'll also find World to be an invaluable resource to better understand critical topics with a depth that's

simply not found in other media outlets.

Armed with this coverage, World can help you to be a voice of wisdom in your family and your community.

This trial includes biweekly issues of World Magazine, on -scene reporting from World Radio

and the fully shareable content of World Digital.

Simply visit wmg .org forward slash iron sharpens

to get your world trial and Dr. Sproul's book all free.

No obligation with no credit card required.

Visit World News Group at wmg .org forward

slash iron sharpens today.

Charles Haddon Spurgeon once said,.

Give yourself unto reading.

The man who never reads will never be read.

He who never quotes will never be quoted.

He will not use the thoughts of other men's brains proves he has no brains of his own.

You need to read.

Solid Ground Christian Books is a publisher and book distributor who takes these words of the Prince of Preachers to heart.

The mission of Solid Ground Christian Books is to bring back treasures of the past to minister to Christians in the present and

future and to publish new titles that address burning issues in the church and the world.

Since its beginning in 2001, Solid Ground has been committed to publish God -centered, Christ -exalting

books for all ages.

We invite you to go treasure hunting at solid -ground -books .com.

That's solid -ground -books .com and see what priceless literary gems from the past to

present you can unearth from Solid Ground.

Solid Ground Christian Books is honored to be a weekly sponsor of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

Hi, I'm Pastor Bill Shishko, inviting you to tune in to a visit to the pastor's study every Saturday

from 12 noon to 1 p .m. Eastern Time on WLIE Radio,

www .wlie540am .com.

We bring biblically faithful pastoral ministry to you and we invite you to visit the pastor's study by calling in

with your questions.

Our time will be lively, useful, and I assure you, never dull.

Join us this Saturday at 12 noon Eastern Time for a visit to the pastor's study because everyone needs

a pastor.

And that was my aforementioned friend, Bill Shishko, a mutual friend of my guest

and mine.

He is the host of a visit to the pastor's study and he is a

dear friend that I've known since I was a very new Christian.

I strongly urge you to listen to this program as often as you can every Saturday from

12 noon to 1 p .m. Eastern Time on WLIE540am

.com, everywhere in the world, or if you live in the New York Tri -State area and parts of

Massachusetts, Rhode Island, and Pennsylvania, you can hear it at 540 on the AM dial

during those times, 12 noon to 1 p .m. Eastern Time.

So we ask of you to please, if you call into the program, tell Pastor Bill Shishko

that you heard about his program, a visit to the pastor's study, from Chris

Arnsen on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, and I know that my guest Heather Watkins and her husband,

Pastor Eric Watkins, can give just as glowing a report about Bill Shishko as

I can.

Yes, definitely.

He was at.

Our house earlier this year and we had a lovely time with him and his wife.

Great, and if I.

Remember, hopefully I'll be able to give you all the website for a

visit to the pastor's study where you can hear archived interviews, including the one that he

conducted with my guest Heather, and I'm assuming that he also interviewed Eric.

Am I right on that?

He has not had the chance to yet.

Oh, okay.

Well, he strongly urged me to interview Eric, but I'm sure he will eventually because of that.

Yes.

But you enjoyed yourself anyway on the show.

Very much so.

So there are different types of adoption that people should be

aware of because there are misconceptions about adoption and

there are closed adoptions and fully open adoptions and so on, so why don't you describe them in more

detail so our listeners know exactly what we're referring to?

Definitely.

There are two.

Sections here.

One is the avenue of adoption and the second one is the level of

openness.

So with the level of openness, there are three main categories.

There's closed adoption, and a closed adoption means that there is absolutely no

identifying information on either side.

A safe haven baby, in other words, a baby that has been dropped off

at a hospital or maybe at a fire department with

no information on the birth mother whatsoever, this would qualify.

There are other adoptions.

This was very common 50, 60 years ago and before where

everything was conducted through the agency completely

anonymously and the adoptees usually had zero information on their birth

parents.

The birth parents had zero information on the adoptive parents.

That form of adoption is much more rare today.

It becomes more of the standard in an international adoption

where the child may be in an orphanage with unknown background, but

it is pretty rare today in the United States.

The semi -open adoption is where some identifying information is known.

For instance, first name, maybe some medical social background.

This became very popular a couple decades ago and the goal

of this form of adoption was that the birth family and the adoptive

family would both keep in communication with the agency or lawyer where they were moving

any medical information so that when the adoptee

became 18, they could petition through the agency to meet

their birth parents.

If there were medical necessity and more information were needed, there was a recourse for

that.

Or for instance, in the beginning months after placement, the birth mother

was able to see a letter, see a photo, maybe

even meet at the agency just to be reassured that she had made the

right decision in placing her child with this particular family.

Agencies began to realize that this was very helpful not just for the healing of the birth family.

For the adoptive family, it gave more of the heritage and

story to their child that they realized after the fact, they really

desired.

And even more importantly, it gave a foundation, a grounding, a

story, a reason to the adoptee.

I was adopted because and really gave a lot of peace to the adoptee.

The last form of adoption is what's called fully open adoption.

And to be honest, in today's day and age, where you have Facebook, Twitter,

everything else, it's a misnomer that there are semi -open adoptions.

If you type in Eric, Heather, Kira, and nothing else on the internet,

our information pulls up.

And we do not have Facebook, we do not have Twitter, or any of the other standard social media

programs.

But it's a fact of the matter that in today's day and age, there is no such thing as true

anonymity.

And in fully open adoption, it does not mean that people are in each other's

homes all the time, necessarily.

But what it does mean is, you know, identifying information

on the other part of the triad.

Triad is the common term used nowadays to describe the relationship

between the birth family, the adoptive family, and the adoptee.

And what they're beginning to find out is, in a fully open adoption, the

most healing can occur for the birth family,.

The adoptive family, and the adoptee.

And can you repeat that?

The most healing can occur.

Specifically in...

Go ahead.

In the fully open adoption.

What's ironic is that most adoptive couples are afraid that

the birth family will be the ones knocking on their door, eliciting a greater amount

of interaction than they feel comfortable with.

And yet what tends to happen most often, and agencies will

attest to this, that it's actually the birth family that closes the door.

And it's the adoptive family that end up wanting more of their child's history and

heritage and story.

But in the birth mother knowing that she

can ask via email, or maybe a phone call,

or a meeting in a public place, in the next couple months after she has made

the most difficult decision of her life, to be able to see, I made the right choice.

My child is safe.

He's happy.

He's well nourished.

He's loved.

That gives so much healing to the birth family.

It gives healing to the adoptive family because they are able to personalize

a real part of who their child is, what has made their child.

This birth family who have the same freckles and dimples and

eye color as their child, they now can see more of that picture.

And for the adoptee, it gives them so much more confidence that I am where I

am because of love and sacrifice, because my

birth family believed this was the best for me, because my adoptive family were not

afraid.

It just gives so much more healing to each part of this triad.

Interesting.

Now can you, I don't know how much you know about the data as

far as all the different kinds of reasons why biological parents or biological mothers

specifically, probably more often than not, don't want any

contact from the child they put up for adoption or from their families.

I'm guessing here that two of the primary reasons might

be shame that they had this child perhaps out of wedlock and then

gave it up for adoption, and also a fear of having some kind of financial responsibility

that they didn't want attached.

But that's just a guess on my part.

Well, I can attest to two different stories.

One of our children's birth mother, she

so very much so wanted to make sure that her son

had a father.

She actually took care of her child for two whole weeks, nursed

him to give extra antibodies to him, slept with him, taking care of him, and still

had that strength to place him in our arms, kiss him, and tell

him that she loved him and make the choice she knew she had to make.

And I know one birth mother very closely had said as much as

she thinks about her child, her birth child, every single day of her

life, there is a need to be able to move on

and to start a new story.

There's also a fear many times of interfering in their birth

child's growth and development and stability in the family.

But again, every single adoption is unique, and every single adoption has its unique

story.

And so there are any myriad of reasons why each

part of the triad may make the decisions that they make.

The desire always is that each one of them make the decision based on love

and in trust in God's sovereignty.

How much can you tell us about the individual stories of your three adopted children?

Each one of them have very unique stories, and I can tell

you this, that with each story, there was a lot of love

put upon them.

Even in the one story that involved more addiction,

this is something that's becoming very common these days.

Professional people becoming entangled in heroin and

cocaine in such a vice grip that they cannot get out of

the cycle.

Our one child was born and had to go through three weeks of detox in the hospital,

and that's just the fact of the matter.

And yet she gave him life and chose to give him a better life than

she knew that she could give.

So some of the birth mothers were younger, um, some of them were much

older, had grown children of their own.

Some birth mothers, it was for relational or financial, emotional

reasons.

Each one had their own story, and the next thing that we're going to talk

about is different avenues of adoption.

With two of them, the two that we met through Catholic

Charities, they received excellent, excellent counseling.

They wrestled through this question with someone that could, without

pressuring them, could answer their questions, could pray with them.

We're not Catholic, um, but we have a wonderful relationship with

Catholic Charities, and we think they do wonderful work.

We actually, we sized out from being able to work with them, so now we're working with another

amazing agency in Florida called Christian Family Services, and both of those,

as well as many other agencies such as Bethany, really take the time to counsel

the birth mother and walk her through reasons why she may want to choose a parenting

plan of her own or may want to choose,.

Um, adoption as her parenting plan.

We do have some listeners, uh, waiting for their questions to be asked and answered.

Uh, we have Bebe in Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, who says, how do you counsel

people when they are considering adoption?

Because I've spoken with such parents, or parents -to -be,

who face the same kind of decisions and struggles in their minds as

they faced before they were married.

Just as married couples sometimes say things like, we're not ready yet to be married, we don't have enough money,

uh, we don't have good enough jobs, and other kinds of things, sometimes

people wait too long to get married and wind up falling into sin on occasion.

Sometimes they rush into marriage before they are ready, and I have noticed that the same kind of

questions and, and hurdles are present when couples

are trying to decide when.

And if they should adopt.

Yes.

Um, one of the things that we strongly recommend, this is something I,

Bill Shishko and I discussed, was ways that the Church could minister to families that

want to adopt.

And this is something that Eric and I have a real heart for, just helping the Church body

learn more about adoption to be able to help

people from each part of the triad.

When it comes to finance, finances, you always want to be

responsible.

Even as recently as yesterday, I was given an adoption

situation that sounded wonderful in many respects, but would

definitely put quite a strain on us financially, and wrestling through,

could we manage that?

Is that extending ourselves past what is responsible for the family that we have?

Again, trusting that God can provide.

At the same time, I know of another wonderful family with an

international adoption.

The wife had a real heart for this one girl, but they did not have the funds.

And she continued to pray, and her husband was on board and was praying with her.

And this child overseas, who had been matched with another American

family, that match failed to go through, and the other American family

left a grant for whomever would adopt this girl.

And it was within a couple thousand of what they needed.

And God just paved the way.

We also know from personal experience, it's very difficult

to afford an adoption.

And I can pretty honestly say that

we've never really truly been able to see a way to afford each one of our adoptions, and that God has

always provided.

And that is where one always needs to be responsible,

to save, to be honest with what

can be done, and what becomes an act of desperation, and ceasing to

trust in the Lord.

And yet always resting in the Lord that if He has willed that

this happen, He will always provide a way, because He is not constrained.

By things of this world.

Amen.

Amen.

Thank you, Bibi, for sharing or asking that question.

Keep listening to Iron Shepherd's Iron Radio and spreading the word in Cumberland County and beyond.

We do have RJ in White Plains, New York, who asks, can

you tell us about some of the scam adoption agencies and

organizations that our listeners should be warned about?

This is going to get a little bit more into the different avenues of adoption.

Just a very brief overview, the main ones are international.

International, the adoptive couple chooses a child, the wait period tends to be

shorter, they're almost always closed.

The average cost is about $40 ,000.

The adoptees tend to be older between the ages of one and three, and

they're often physical or emotional disabilities.

There's the foster -to -adopt option, which is for the most part free, but rarely

the child is an infant.

They're usually older.

They've usually been forcibly removed due to neglect or abuse.

The process is managed by the state, not by a private agency, and it

tends to be long and very bureaucratic.

The kind of adoption that we prefer is through an adoption

agency, ones that I've already mentioned.

The average cost there is $18 ,000 to $28 ,000.

There's usually an initial amount due upon application, and then the next payment is

due upon placement.

That means when papers have already been signed, and the final payment due upon

finalization.

Most of these are ministry -run.

The last main avenue is lawyer -enabled, and I will tell you right now,

I know of several adoptive attorneys that are wonderful.

So this is not speaking to lawyers in any manner, but it is more so

a trend that is occurring in many states.

And remember, I am coming from the state of Florida.

Each state has their own laws and different issues, but with a

lawyer -enabled adoption, the birth mother or birth parents choose the adoptive

couple, just like with an agency.

The average cost is between $30 ,000 and $40 ,000, but a large amount of the

funds are due upon match with no guarantees of the birth mother

signing.

And many times the birth mother is not counseled.

So for instance, I've received an email recently, a birth mother is four months along.

Match will occur at four months.

An initial retainer of $25 ,000 to $30 ,000 is due upon match.

She is given an amount of money, the lawyer is given an amount of money, and in five

months' time when she delivers, she is under no legal.

Obligation whatsoever to sign any paperwork.

Wow, you're going to have to pick up on match when we return from our midway break.

I hate to interrupt you mid -sentence like that, but please remember where you left off and we'll continue right where you

stopped there.

We have to go to our elongated break.

This is our 12 -minute break that we are required to have by Grace Life Radio, 90 .1 FM in Lake City,

Florida.

So we ask of you to be patient with us during this 12 -minute break.

Use this time to write questions for our guests and also use this time to write down information provided by our

advertisers so that you can patronize them and they can continue to have adequate funds to

sponsor Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

We wouldn't want them to stop sponsoring us, so please patronize our advertisers as much as

you can and we look forward to hearing from you and your questions after this station break, so don't

go away.

Tired of bop store Christianity, of doing church in a warehouse with all the trappings of a rock concert?

Do you long for a more traditional and reverent style of worship?

And how about the preaching?

Perhaps you've begun to think that in -depth biblical exposition has vanished from Long Island.

Well, there's good news.

Wedding River Baptist Church exists to provide believers with a meaningful and reverent worship experience

featuring the systematic exposition of God's Word, and this loving congregation looks forward to meeting you.

Call them at 631 -929 -3512 for service times, 631

-929 -3512, or check out their website at wrbc

.us.

That's wrbc .us.

I'm James White of Alpha Omega Ministries.

The New American Standard Bible is perfect for daily reading or in -depth study.

Used by pastors, scholars, and everyday readers, the NASV is widely embraced and trusted as a literal and readable Bible

translation.

The NASV offers clarity and readability while maintaining high accuracy to the original languages which the NASV is known for.

The NASV is available in many editions like a topical reference Bible.

Researched and prepared by biblical scholars devoted to accuracy, the new topical reference Bible includes contemporary topics

relevant to today's issues.

From compact to giant print Bibles, find an NASV that fits your needs very affordably at nasbible

.com.

Whichever edition you choose, trust, discover, and enjoy the NASV for yourself today.

Go to nasbible .com.

That's nasbible .com.

One sure way all Iron Sharpens Iron Radio listeners can help keep my show on the air is to support my

advertisers.

I know you all use batteries every day, so I'm urging you all from now on to exclusively use

batterydepot .com for all your battery needs.

At batterydepot .com, they're changing the status quo.

They're flipping the script.

They're sticking it to the man.

In other words, they'd like to change the battery industry for good by providing an extensive inventory

of top -of -the -line batteries that are uniformly new, dependable, and affordable.

Ordering from batterydepot .com ensures you'll always get fresh out -of -the -box batteries

you can count on to work properly at competitive prices.

Whether you need batteries for cordless phones, cell phones, radios, PCs,

laptops, tablets, baby monitors, hearing aids, smoke detectors, credit card

readers, digital cameras, electronic cigarettes, GPSs, MP3 players,

watches, or nearly anything else you own that needs batteries, go to batterydepot

.com.

Next day shipping available.

All products protected by 30 -day guarantees and six -month warranties.

Call 866 -403 -3768.

That's 866 -403 -3768.

Or go to batterydepot .com.

That's batterydepot .com.

Have you been blessed by Iron Sharpens Iron Radio?

We remain on the air because of our faithful sponsors and because of listeners like you.

There are four ways you can help.

First, do you know potential sponsors who may wish to advertise their goods or services on Iron Sharpens

Iron Radio?

Second, whenever possible, purchase the products or use the services that our sponsors advertise

and then let them know that you heard about them on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

Thirdly, you can also donate to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio by going to our website at

ironsharpensironradio .com and click support at the top of the page.

But most importantly, keep Iron Sharpens Iron Radio in your prayers.

We hope that Iron Sharpens Iron Radio blesses you for many years to come.

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio is sponsored by Harvey Cedars, a year -round Bible conference and retreat

center nestled on the Jersey Shore.

Harvey Cedars offers a wide range of accommodations to suit groups up to 400.

For generations, Christians have enjoyed gathering and growing at Harvey Cedars.

Each year, thousands of high school and college students come and learn more about God's Word.

An additional 9 ,000 come annually to Harvey Cedars as families, couples,

singles, men, women, pastors, seniors, and missionaries.

Ninety miles from New York City, 70 miles from Philly, and 95 miles from Wilmington,

and easily accessible, scores of notable Christian groups frequently plan conferences at

Harvey Cedars, like The Navigators, InterVarsity Christian Fellowship, Campus

Crusade, and the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals.

Find Harvey Cedars on Facebook or at hcbible .org.

hcbible

.org.

Call 609 -494 -5689.

609 -494 -5689.

Harvey Cedars, where Christ finds people and changes lives.

Paul wrote to the church at Galatia, For am I now seeking the approval of man, or of God?

Or am I trying to please man?

If I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant of Christ.

Hi, I'm Mark Lukens, pastor of Providence Baptist Church.

We are a Reformed Baptist Church, and we hold to the London Baptist Confession of Faith of 1689.

We are in Norfolk, Massachusetts.

We strive to reflect Paul's mindset to be much more concerned with how God views what we say and what we do

than how men view these things.

That's not the best recipe for popularity, but since that wasn't the Apostles' priority, it must not be ours either.

We believe, by God's grace, that we are called to demonstrate love and compassion to our fellow man, and to be

vessels of Christ's mercy to a lost and hurting community around us, and to build up the body of Christ in truth and

love.

If you live near Norfolk, Massachusetts, or plan to visit our area, please come and join us for worship and fellowship.

You can call us at 508 -528 -5750.

That's 508 -528 -5750.

Or go to our website to email us, listen to past sermons, worship songs, or watch our TV program entitled,

Resting in Grace.

You can find us at providencebaptistchurchma .org.

That's providencebaptistchurchma .org, or even on sermonaudio .com.

Providence Baptist Church is delighted to sponsor Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

And we are delighted to have Providence Baptist Church and Norfolk, Massachusetts, sponsor Iron

Sharpens Iron Radio, and Mark Lukens, the pastor of that church, will be our guest the final half

hour of this program.

He is also an adoptive parent.

He has seven adopted children on top of the six biological children that he and his wife

have adopted, and we are going to be getting an update on the anti -Christian discrimination against couples desiring to adopt in

Massachusetts, some of which our guest Mark Lukens faced.

But before we return to our first guest, Heather Watkins, who is the

wife of Dr. Eric B. Watkins, the senior pastor of Covenant Presbyterian Church

in St. Augustine, Florida, who is discussing guidelines for adopting children, we just have a couple of

brief announcements that we need to make.

First of all, the glory of the cross is the theme of the Quaker

Town Conference on Reform Theology coming up November 9th through the 10th at

the Grace Bible Fellowship Church in Quaker Town, Pennsylvania.

I will be there, God willing, manning an exhibitor's booth for Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

I hope to see as many of you there as possible.

The guests, or should I say the speakers, include David Garner, Ray Ortland, Richard

Phillips, and Timothy Gibson, and Carlton Wynn.

And once again, that's on the theme, the glory of the cross, November 9th through the 10th at the Grace Bible Fellowship

Church in Quaker Town, Pennsylvania.

If you would like to register for the Quaker Town Conference on Reform Theology, go to Alliancenet .org.

Alliancenet .org.

Click on Events, and then click on Quaker Town Conference on Reform Theology.

Please tell the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals, who are sponsoring this event, that you heard about it

from Chris Arnzen on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

Then we have, coming up in January, another one of my favorite conferences that

I have attended for the last two years in a row, and manned an exhibitor's booth for Iron

Sharpens Iron Radio both years at this place.

This is the G3 Conference, which stands for Grace, Gospel, and Glory.

It is another Reformed conference being held at the Georgia International Convention Center in

College Park, Georgia, which is a suburb of Atlanta.

It's being held Thursday, January 17th through Saturday, January 19th, and the theme this

year is The Mission of God, A Biblical Understanding of Missions.

Speakers include Paul Washer, John Piper, David Platt, Stephen Lawson, Vody Baucom,

Mark Dever, Conrad Mbewe, Tim Challies, Phil Johnson, Josh Bice,

Anthony Mathenia, Todd Freel, David Miller, Jeremy Volo, Stephen

Nichols, who is the president of Reformation Bible College, the Bible college planted by or formed by

R .C. Sproul, the late Dr. R .C. Sproul and Ligonier Ministries, Don Curran, Cindy Curran, Martha

Peace, Chip Thornton, Chris King, and Owen Stran.

If you would like to join me at the G3 Conference in January of

2019, go to g3conference .com, g3conference .com, and click

on G3 Conference 2019.

Please tell the folks running the G3 Conference that you heard about it from Chris Arnzen on Iron Trap and Zion Radio.

Last but not least, this is my least comfortable time of the program, or should I say most

uncomfortable time of the program, and that's when I have to beg you for money, and I have to do so not only

because those that are already spending hard -earned money advertising with me have urged me to make these

public appeals, but also because we urgently need them.

So if you love Iron Trap and Zion Radio, you listen to it every day or most days, you look forward to

sharing the free MP3s with family, friends, and loved ones, you are

edified greatly by the guests and topics that we have, well please go to

irontrapandzionradio .com, click support, then click click to donate now.

You could donate instantly with a debit or credit card by going to

irontrapandzionradio .com, click support, and then click click to donate now, or you can mail in

a check the old -fashioned way to the address that you will see when you click support at irontrapandzionradio .com.

Make those checks payable to Iron Trap and Zion Radio, and please give as much as you can

and as give as often as you can, and as always I give this caveat to you,

never siphon money out of the regular giving that you're accustomed to to the local church where you are a

member.

Never do that or never put your family in financial jeopardy by giving to Iron Trap and Zion Radio.

Providing for your church and providing for your family are two commands of God.

Supporting Iron Trap and Zion Radio is not a command of God, but if you are blessed

above and beyond your ability to obey those two commands I mentioned, and you love the show, and you don't want it to disappear,

which we are on the verge of doing, please go to irontrapandzionradio .com, click support, and then click

click to donate now, and donate with a credit or debit card, or mail in a check through via snail mail to

the address that you see.

If you want to advertise with us, we could surely use your advertising dollars, so send me an email to chrisarnsen at gmail

.com and put advertising in the subject line, no matter what it is, whether it's your business, your church, your

parachurch organization, your professional practice, if you're a doctor, a lawyer, a dentist, a chiropractor, whether it's a special

event you're having, as long as whatever it is you want to advertise is compatible with the

theology we express here, doesn't need to be identical, just needs to be compatible with the theology we express

here, then we would love to help you launch an ad campaign, because we really do need your advertising dollars.

We are already six days behind in our rent here, we

have a lot of other bills that need to be paid, the streaming bill, and other

bills that we need, or we will disappear from the airwaves.

Please help us.

Thank you so much to Pastor Jeremy Volo and his father,

Chuck Volo, in two different states, Pastor Jeremy in Laredo, Texas, and

Pastor Chuck in Kingsville, Maryland.

Thank you for the very generous gifts that you has just sent in to go

towards our rent.

We are still shy of paying that rent in full, so if you could help us, please go to www .irontreponsironradio

.com, click support, then click click to donate now.

And if you'd like to join us on the air with a question for our guest, Heather Watkins on adoption,

our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com.

And before the break, Heather, you were talking about the specific option

for adoption that is involved with matching, and it can be very risky and financially dangerous.

If you could continue where you left off.

So when you are matched,.

That means that the birth family and the adoptive family agree that

this would be a good situation.

Typically in private adoptions in the United States, the birth mother is given

a couple profiles from which to choose, and if she feels

comfortable with a profile of an adoptive family, she then chooses that adoptive family.

The adoptive family has been contacted, there may be a meet and greet, and an

agreement, a non -binding agreement is made that this seems like a good match.

In an adoption agency such as Catholic Charities or Christian Family Services,

no financial, no money is exchanged at

that point in time.

And just like you were saying earlier, these agencies run on the

donations of people that feel called to give to those agencies.

They work as a non -profit ministry to all people involved.

They give counseling to the birth family, they give counseling to the adoptive family, they keep the

records and make sure that everything is done legally.

In most situations, or in many situations, a lawyer

-enabled adoption, funds are placed at the time

of match.

In other words, no legal documents have been signed saying that this adoption will go through, but

legal documents have been signed that the adoptive family puts in a certain

amount of retainer of many times $20 ,000 to $30 ,000 that is then drawn

upon during the rest of the pregnancy.

The next term is called placement.

Placement occurs normally 48 hours after birth of the adoptee

when the birth mother signs final papers and the baby

is then placed with the adoptive family.

With most adoption agencies, that is when the next payment occurs.

So you have the initial set -up fee and then the next payment that occurs is at

placement, when legally this child has been placed in the adoptive family's homes.

With a lawyer, that is also when the next fee is given, but remember,

there is no legal responsibility for placement to occur.

And this is where I was going with the fraud, is that it has unfortunately

become, I'll read to you what a lawyer has on their website.

Can you get paid to have a baby?

You can receive financial support for having a baby that you've placed into a new family through adoption.

Abortions will cost you, but adoption, you can receive money.

You can also receive money from the adoptive family that will help you cover other expenses.

I'm very grateful that they are encouraging a birth mother to choose life over abortion.

However, it has become, in many situations, for lack of a better term, a

racket.

And the real danger here is the birth mother is

hurt because she's not receiving adequate counseling.

The adoptive family is put in a very tenuous financial position because of

desperation.

In any given situation, you could have upwards 50 couples applying

for one adoption because that is how desperate so many adoptive

couples are.

I can tell you from experience, the nights, laying awake at night, if only we gave

a little bit more money, maybe we would get placed.

And that is where I would say is the heart of how I would counsel somebody

about fraud is do your research and then

continually go back to, are you making this decision

because of desperation, because of fear, or because after

prayer and counsel, you feel called?

Again, one of our children was adopted through a lawyer, and we're very grateful for

that.

But the trend that is occurring more and more is

significant financial loss and pain through what's

becoming a money.

Racket instead of a ministry.

Wow.

Yes, that is a difficult situation when you're

saying to yourself, with women murdering unborn babies by the

millions out there in society, you look for any reason why they wouldn't

kill the child, but at the same time, you can't help but be repulsed if some

people are using children as a marketing scheme or just as a method of making money.

It's one of those things where both things are

distasteful, but I still rejoice every time I think of a woman not having her

baby murdered.

Amen.

Amen.

I want to make sure before we run out of time, because as I told you before our interview, that this would go by a lot

faster than you'd ever thought it would, I want to make sure that the things that you did not have

time to say when you were interviewed on a visit to the pastor's study are said, as you mentioned

before the show, that you wanted to make sure that you said certain things, that you ran out of time before you said

them on Bill Shishko's program.

So perhaps you could give us some of that information, and then we'll move on to whatever we have left

that time will allow.

That would be.

Wonderful.

First of all, remember always that I am coming from this, a biased point of view,

a personal point of view.

For every statement made, there are always exceptions, and again, relying on

the grace and wisdom of our Lord, there's so many unique situations that seem

impossible that God moves in and through.

So again, I'm not trying to belittle one avenue over another

or one area over another, but to say that God works all

things for His good and His glory.

Having said that, I think one thing that my husband and I have a real

passion for, first of all, is for encouraging people that are already adoptive

parents, or for those that are looking at adoption.

A well -meaning person will inadvertently ask horrible questions.

For instance, my daughter has been asked how long she was in the orphanage, or if it was like the one

in the movie Annie, where her real mom is, or why didn't

her birth mother love her.

What was the second one before that, where her what is?

Her real mom is.

Oh wow.

Her real mom.

My husband and I have been told that my infertility was God's way of telling us we

shouldn't have children.

Wow.

And I would encourage people, instead of taking offense

at something very offensive, think about the beautiful

opportunity God has just placed in your lap of being able to

educate your fellow person in the beauty of adoption.

Adoption is a glorious thing.

It is so glorious that God uses the same exact terminology when he talks

about us.

In fact, there's this wonderful part in every finalization paper.

This is the day that you go before the judge, and you sign the last papers, and

the child that you've been caring for is now legally yours.

And in that paper it says, the minor child subject to this petition is

declared to be the legal child of these two people, and shall be the legal heir,

and shall be entitled to all rights and privileges, and subject to all obligations

of a child born to the petitioners.

And Eric and I are hit every single time.

What incredibly redemptive language that is, just like our

adoption as daughters and sons of our Lord and Savior.

And adoption on the earth is such a beautiful portrait of that.

Every one of us is broken.

The birth family that can never raise the child that they're bearing, the adoptive

family that cannot bear for one reason or another, whether by choice or by

biological issues, bear the child that they are about ready to call their own, and the

adoptee who can only become part of this family because of pain

and sorrow.

Each one of us are broken pieces of a beautiful portrait that is put

together by God's love alone.

And when questions like that are asked, instead of taking

offense, instead saying, this is a beautiful thing, let me tell you how,

and using it to talk about the grace and love of our Lord and Savior, it's just a wonderful

ministry opportunity.

And I have found, ironically, being introverted the best way to give the gospel

to people around town.

They look at my children.

Everyone in my family is mixed, except for me.

People ask questions.

And so it's a great opportunity to talk about.

The love and saving grace of our Lord and Savior.

Amen.

We have an anonymous questioner for you.

This anonymous listener says, my wife and I have at times

been given a guilt trip by parents who have adopted children

and have insinuated that if we do not adopt, that we are in sin, that we are

selfish, or any host of other horrible reasons why we don't adopt.

It's amazing how people can think they know what is going on in the hearts, minds, and lives

of others, what is going on in their homes, what kind of trials they may have that would

prohibit such a move to adopt a child, or at least make it a less desirable

option, especially for the child.

But people seem to think that unless you have a lot of children under your roof, you are

somehow selfish, greedy, or in sin in some other way.

How do you respond to people like that?

Ironically, the same argument is given to people that have more than two children.

I have several friends that have been told that they're very selfish for adopting.

That is a very bizarre and oxymoronic phrase.

You are very selfish for adopting.

Yes, and you know, it really comes back to, Paul never married.

Was that selfish?

God withheld children from Sarah and Abraham and

Hannah, and in his time he ended up giving them children.

But, one, not a quiverful,

and it really takes away what is God's individual

calling for each person.

And I will tell you this is the best way to answer that.

I wear as my wedding ring, and my daughter's middle name is

the same name as an incredible woman named Ruth, who

she and her husband could never have kids, never had children.

Her husband died, and she felt that God was calling her

to minister, pray for, help, counsel men, that

she felt the Lord was calling to the ministry.

And my husband was one of those last people.

And the woman that never bore children and never adopted children became the spiritual

mother of so many godly men, and now there is a church in Florida,

and my particular family and my adoptions are here

because of her love for her spiritual son, my husband.

Praise God.

Yes, and don't you think that it is very unwise to be pushing someone

who may follow through and adopt a child or children because of the guilt trip or

because of being pressured by their pastors, their fellow congregation members, their

family, their friends, when they know for the reasons that the public doesn't know,

the people surrounding them don't know, they know why that's not a good idea, and they're going to wind up bringing

some kind of harm or problem into the lives of children that was avoidable?

Yes.

You never know the way.

That God is calling you.

The things that, you know, I think about the scripture that's talking about singles and how

God may be setting them apart to pursue, in a very particular way, his will for their

lives to minister to others that they might not be able to otherwise.

And it goes regardless of whether or not you bear biological children or

adopt children or choose not to adopt.

God has particular roads for each of us, as it is called, to give

God glory and enjoy.

Him forever.

Amen.

That's from the Shorter Catechism, the first question, correct?

Yep.

If you could, give us about three minutes of uninterrupted time where you,

or I'm giving you three minutes of uninterrupted time, where you can unburden your heart and summarize what you

most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today.

I definitely can, and I would.

Actually say that in terms of hymns, if I may, with each of our

children, there was a particular hymn that spoke to us at that time.

As I said before, with Kira, it was, Whatever My God Ordains is Right.

Beautiful, beautiful, beautiful hymn.

With my son Carl, it was, O Father, You are Sovereign, the Lord of human

pain, transmuting earthly sorrows to gold of heavenly gain, all evil

overruling as none but conqueror could.

Your love pursues its purpose, our soul's eternal good.

And for our son, it ended up being, Praise the Lord the Almighty.

And it said, Hath thou not seen how thy desires ere have been granted in

what he ordains?

God chooses to mold our will to his and then grants us what he has

placed upon our heart as a desire so we may glorify and enjoy him.

And this year, the hymn that's really been speaking to me is Like a River Glorious

that says, Every joy or trial falleth from above, traced upon our

dial by the sun of love.

We may trust him fully, all for us to do.

They who trust him wholly find him wholly true.

And to be able to rest in that sovereign God, knowing that he places desires

upon our hearts, places trials in our lives, and then places himself

at the center of it all so we can truly fall.

In love with our Savior.

Praise God, and I love all those hymns.

Well, I do want to make sure that we have all the contact information for you

and for your husband Eric and the church.

First of all, I want to make sure that our listeners know the website for Bill Shishko's radio

program, A Visit to the Pastors Study, because you can find Heather's archived interview there.

And of course, you could later on this week, or tomorrow, in fact, look up the archived

interview that she had with me today on irontrepensironradio .com if you came in

late or you want to share that link with others.

But Bill Shishko's website is visitthepastorsstudy

.org.

Visitthepastorsstudy .org.

That's all one word, no spaces, no dashes, no dots, no apostrophes.

Visitthepastorsstudy .org.

And I know that the website for the church, where you are a member and where your husband

is the pastor, covenant

-opchurch .org.

Covenant -opchurch .org.

Do you have any other contact information that you care to share with.

Our listeners?

Yes.

If they look on that link, there is an email that you can use

and you can ask my husband or myself any questions you may have.

We actually love to talk about adoption.

We've hosted adoption dinners in our house and would love to

pray with anyone that is thinking about adoption, has questions about

adoption, including pastors and churches that would like to know how better to minister to

people in their congregation about adoption.

Praise God.

Well, I eagerly look forward to having you back on the program, Heather.

It's been a joy to interview you and to get acquainted with you.

And I look forward to Eric being on the program to promote his book.

That's Dr. Eric B. Watson.

We look forward to have him on the program because of the drama of preaching,

which is the title of his book that I would love to explore with him at the urging of Bill Shishko.

And I just want to thank you again.

And I want everybody who is listening now to hold on.

Don't go away because we do have a final half hour of the program with Pastor Mark Lukens, who himself is an

adoptive parent of seven children on top of his six biological children.

And we're going to talk about the trials he faced living in Massachusetts because of the fact that he was a Christian

parent seeking adoption.

And on top of that, a pastor, which actually amazingly worked against him, not in his favor.

But Heather, God bless you, and give my greetings to your husband.

Thank you so much.

All righty, bye -bye now.

And don't go away, folks.

This is our last break, and we'll be back shortly.

So don't go.

Away.

Linbrook Baptist Church on 225 Earl Avenue in Linbrook, Long Island is teaching God's timeless truths in

the 21st century.

Our church is far more than a Sunday worship service.

It's a place.

Of learning where the scriptures are studied and the preaching of the gospel is clear and relevant.

It's like a gym where one can exercise their faith through community involvement.

It's like a hospital for wounded souls where one can find compassionate people and healing.

We're a diverse family of all ages, enthusiastically serving our Lord Jesus Christ in fellowship, play, and

together.

Hi, I'm Pastor Bob Walderman, and I invite you to come and join us here at Linbrook Baptist Church.

And see all that a church can be.

Call Linbrook Baptist at 516 -599 -9402.

That's 516 -599 -9402.

Or.

Visit linbrookbaptist .org.

That's linbrookbaptist .org.

Iron Sharpens.

Iron welcomes Solid Rock Remodeling to our family of sponsors.

Serving South Central Pennsylvania, Solid Rock Remodeling is focused on discovering,

understanding, and exceeding your expectations.

They deliver personalized project solutions with exceptional results.

Solid Rock Remodeling offers a full range of home renovations, including kitchen and bath

remodeling, decks, porches, windows and doors, roof and siding, and

more.

For a clear, detailed, professional estimate, call this trustworthy team of problem solvers

who provide superior results that stand the test of time.

Call Solid Rock Remodeling

at 717 -697 -1981.

717 -697 -1981.

Or visit solidrockremodeling .com.

That's solidrockremodeling .com.

Solid Rock Remodeling, bringing new life to your home.

Hi, I'm Pastor.

Bill Shishko, inviting you to tune into A Visit to the Pastor's Study every Saturday from 12 noon

to 1 p .m. Eastern Time on WLIE Radio, www

.wlie540am .com.

We bring biblically faithful pastoral ministry to you, and we invite you to visit the Pastor's Study by calling in

with your questions.

Our time will be lively, useful, and I assure you, never dull.

Join us this Saturday at 12 noon Eastern Time for a visit to the Pastor's Study, because everyone needs

a pastor.

I heard of box store Christianity, of doing

church in a warehouse with all the trappings of a rock concert.

Do you long for a more traditional and reverent style of worship?

And how about the preaching?

Perhaps you've begun to think that in -depth biblical exposition has vanished from Long Island.

Well, there's good news.

Wedding River Baptist Church exists to provide believers with a meaningful and reverent worship experience,

featuring the systematic exposition of God's Word.

And this loving congregation looks forward to meeting you, call them at 631 -929

-3512 for service times, 631 -929

-3512, or check out their website at.

Wrbc .us.

That's wrbc .us.

I'm James White of Alpha Omega Ministries.

The New American Standard Bible is perfect for daily reading or in -depth study.

Used by pastors, scholars, and everyday readers, the NASV is widely embraced and trusted as a literal and readable Bible

translation.

The NASV offers clarity and readability while maintaining high accuracy to the original languages which the NASV is known for.

The NASV is available in many editions like a topical reference Bible.

Researched and prepared by biblical scholars devoted to accuracy, the new topical reference Bible includes contemporary topics

relevant to today's issues.

From compact to giant print Bibles, find an NASV that fits your needs very affordably at nasbible

.com.

Whichever edition you choose, trust, discover, and enjoy the NASV for yourself today.

Go to nasbible .com.

That's nasbible .com.

Paul wrote to the church at Galatia, For am I now seeking the approval of

man, or of God?

Or am I trying to please man?

If I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant of Christ.

Hi, I'm Mark Lukens, pastor of Providence Baptist Church.

We are a Reformed Baptist Church and we hold to the London Baptist Confession of Faith of 1689.

We are in Norfolk, Massachusetts.

We strive to reflect Paul's mindset to be much more concerned with how God views what we say and what we do

than how men view these things.

That's not the best recipe for popularity, but since that wasn't the Apostle's priority, it must not be ours either.

We believe, by God's grace, that we are called to demonstrate love and compassion to our fellow man, and to be

vessels of Christ's mercy to a lost and hurting community around us, and to build up the body of Christ in truth and

love.

If you live near Norfolk, Massachusetts, or plan to visit our area, please come and join us for worship and fellowship.

You can call us at 508 -528 -5750.

That's 508 -528 -5750.

Or go to our website to email us, listen to past sermons, worship songs, or watch our TV program entitled,

Resting in Grace.

You can find us at providencebaptistchurchma .org.

That's providencebaptistchurchma .org.

Or even on sermonaudio .com.

Providence Baptist Church is delighted to sponsor Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

Hi, I'm Buzz Taylor, frequent co -host with Chris Aronson on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

I would like to introduce you to my good friends, Todd and Patty Jennings at CBBBS, which stands for Cumberland Valley

Bible Book Service.

Todd and Patty specialize in supplying reformed and Puritan books and Bibles at discount prices that make them

affordable to everyone.

Since 1987, the family -owned and operated book service has sought to bring you the best available Christian books

and Bibles at the best possible prices.

Unlike other book sites, they make no effort to provide every book that is available because, frankly, much of what

is being printed is not worth your time.

That means you can get to the good stuff faster.

It also means that you don't have to worry about being assaulted by the pornographic, heretical, and

otherwise faith -insulting material promoted by the secular book vendors.

Their website is CBBBS .com.

Browse the pages at ease, shop at your leisure, and purchase with confidence as Todd and Patty work

in service to you, the Church, and to Christ.

That's Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service at CBBBS .com.

That's CBBBS .com.

Let Todd and Patty know that you heard about them on Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio.

And you can call CBBBS .com at their toll -free number.

That's 800 -656 -0231, 800 -656

-0231.

And if you purchase $50 or more worth of advertising,

if you purchase $50 or more worth of merchandise, and you mention

Chris Arnzen of Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio, you will not only receive free shipping on everything

that you purchase, but you'll also receive on top of everything free of charge, prayerful and powerful pulpits by

E .M. Bounds.

That's prayerful and powerful pulpits by E .M. Bounds.

So please make sure that you mention Chris Arnzen of Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio when ordering $50

or more worth of merchandise.

Remember, Father's Day is coming up, so order as much as you can for Dad.

And while you're ordering from CBBBS .com, don't forget you can order books published

by my other sponsor, Solid Ground Christian Books.

You can order Solid Ground Christian Books from CBBBS .com because

CBBBS .com is not a publisher, they are a book distributor.

So why not go to solid -ground -books .com, solid -ground -books .com, make a long

list of books that you want for Dad and for yourself and for other folks,

other dads in your life.

And then after you write down that list from solid -ground -books .com, go to CBBBS .com and order them.

So you make the $50 mark of getting free shipping and you get the free book by E .M. Bounds.

And please tell Todd and Patty Jennings, the owners of CBBBS .com, that you heard about them from

Chris Arnzen on Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio.

Well, we now have our second guest, Pastor Mark Lukens,

who is joining us right now.

He is not only a sponsor of Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio, but he's the pastor of Providence Baptist Church in Norfolk, Massachusetts.

And we are going to be discussing an update on the anti -Christian discrimination against couples desiring to adopt in

Massachusetts.

And it is my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio, Pastor Mark Lukens.

Pastor Lukens, are you there?

Oh, I'm sorry, I had you on mute, Pastor Lukens.

Are you there now?

Glad to be here again, thank you.

Great.

Well, before we go into your topic, give us a very brief description of Providence Baptist Church.

In Norfolk, Massachusetts, even though we've been hearing about that church and the ads that people are hearing.

But still, why don't you give us a summary again of what that church is all about?

Yeah, we're ready.

Amen.

And we'll give the contact information before we go off the air for that church.

Well, why don't you tell our listeners about how this story begins with you when

you begin to adopt children or go through the process of adopting children

after already having biological children of your own.

And you began to realize that living in Massachusetts is not really

always the best place to be when you are a Christian and not only a Christian, but a pastor.

And you want to do a noble thing, a wonderful thing, a good thing, a merciful thing, a

compassionate thing, a glorious thing like adopting a child where you would think many people

might normally think.

In fact, even your average non -Christian, unless they are totally on the

ultra left wing of the spectrum of ideology, your average person would

probably think, well, I think it'd be a great idea to have pastors

and very religious people, quote, quote, adopting children.

And in fact, if I was going to have somebody babysit my children and I had the opportunity to have

a pastor and his wife or a pastor and his wife's children babysit for my

children, I would love to have them in a home like that because I feel much safer about leaving my children there, et cetera, et cetera.

But that is not necessarily the case with those in governing authority.

No.

Wow.

Yeah, I can imagine.

So is this something that is only going on in

Massachusetts?

I mean, Massachusetts is not the only liberal state in the union,

California being another.

And you have all different kinds of things that even some liberals

that might be considered classical liberals or even liberals that understand what

that actually really used to mean and really is, they understand there's a difference

between being liberal and being a left -wing totalitarian, but they even

might cringe at what's going on with this kind of a thing.

Where else is this a problem?

Because you can't call home.

Yeah.

Well, you know, it's interesting, something that you just said, and I'm sure that there's going to be somebody out there

somewhere that might accuse me of saying something racist, but I intend

actually by saying this, the exact opposite of that, I know quite a number of

black individuals, brothers and sisters in Christ, and those that are not even Christian,

who will tell you that across the spectrum in the black community, although you cannot

cookie cutter anyone and you can't broad brush anyone, it is a very dominantly held

opinion in the black community, no matter what kind of political ideology you have, is that

spanking belongs in the home as far as disciplining children.

Yep.

And are black people being treated in the same way by those

liberal governing authorities, or are they being treated with kid gloves on this issue?

How does this work?

Yeah, I know.

Right,

right.

Yeah, well, that's just reverse racism.

It's the insanity of treating somebody in a special or different way

for better or worse, because of the melanin content in their skin.

Yeah, and racism is...

Well, obviously you being a Christian pastor, well, at least one that I

know, that you might hear a lot of crazy advice and counsel from people identifying themselves as Christian pastors.

Yeah.

But you are a reformed Baptist, you are a adherent to the 1689 London

Baptist Confession of Faith.

Yeah.

So I know that you would not be one who would be counseling people, just lie about

that when you're trying to adopt, just fudge that, just do this, do that, to

be dishonest, because the greater good will come out of it.

But obviously I know that you wouldn't do that.

So how do you counsel Christians wanting to adopt?

Again, just be open and honest, but...

You don't have to volunteer information.

That's not asking, because that's not...

People have confused that with lying.

That's not lying when you...

No.

If the government becomes a fascist regime and kicks in

your door, you don't have to start volunteering.

Information about where your children are hiding.

You know what I mean?

Yeah.

I mean, it is an absurd thing when people say that.

But other than that, what can you say?

No, I

just

stay

open

and

loving,

and at the same time,

and they just don't have an answer for that, because they don't have a...

have to say to them, because God's told us.

Well, why don't you give us an update on these additional children that you adopted,

and give us a bit of a background about what you were facing specifically.

I remember the last time you were a guest on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, you actually were one of the very rare

times we have ever had a guest be anonymous.

Yes.

And you had to do that, because you hadn't completed the adoption process.

So tell us something about that and the update on it.

He's crazy,

just like he did our...

all equally loved, and it's been a huge blessing to our family.

We always thought we would adopt when we were younger, and it's a

blessing.

Now, when we conducted that last interview, when you were anonymous, how many of those

children were the ones that had not yet been finalized?

Because you already did have some adopted.

Yeah,

it

was

for us.

It was

from behind the scenes.

They knew I was a Christian, and I think some of the people in the state, if they could say it publicly, would

just come out and say it.

So this was a sham that there was something about the architecture of your

home that was unacceptable?

Well, yeah.

One of

the

better,

if we

did

that,

that

would...

Now, we have here an anonymous listener who says, if you live in Massachusetts

and you want to adopt, and you are a Christian and even a pastor, is it easier

to get this accomplished by adopting overseas or in another state and then bringing the

children back to Massachusetts?

I'm unaware of the legalities behind all this.

Yeah,

I

wouldn't...

Wow.

...adoption for the right reason, for the love of kids, but yet there's a lot of people that are in the adoption,

let's say, business.

Well, you have about 30 seconds just to summarize what you most want etched on the hearts and minds of our listeners now.

Amen.

Well, the website for Providence Baptist Church in Norfolk, Massachusetts, is

providencebaptistchurchma .org, and that MA is an abbreviation for Massachusetts.

Yeah.

Providencebaptistchurchma .org.

I want to thank you so much for joining us today, Pastor Mark Lukens.

I look forward to having you back for a longer period of time on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

I want to thank everybody who listened, especially those who wrote in questions, and I want you all to always remember for the rest of your

lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater savior than you are a sinner.