Continued Sola Scriptura Debate

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Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line

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The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence

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Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation.

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If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now It's 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll -free across the

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United States. It's one eight seven seven seven five Three three three four one and now with today's topic.

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Here is James white Hey good morning, welcome to the dividing line

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Tuesday morning going to continue with our review of the 1993 Sola Scriptura debate today

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Just a quick note those of you in the New Mexico area One of the more heavily populated areas the

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United States Well, Santa Fe's got a few folks there and we will be in Santa Fe this weekend.

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I will be speaking Three at least three times I will be doing

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Presentation on Sunday morning on the reliability of the New Testament. I spent all day yesterday from morning till night on a brand new presentation on that using

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The ever -advanced technology of the Mac I gotta admit keynote is a tremendous program and I had a lot of fun putting together a presentation on the reliability of the text

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New Testament That I'll be using for the very first time there in Santa Fe and we'll also be speaking of Islam and the

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Marian dogmas So I am currently Updating those Presentations as well as I was doing before I came in here.

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So that'll be this Saturday and then of course Please note you in the Southern California area always get

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California people know when you call about, California, man I'm over there all the time. I think they're gonna start charging me taxes.

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I'm over there so often but We will be in the LA area the following Saturday and then down in San Diego the following Sunday three debates against Farhan Qureshi and Osama Abdullah are the two gentlemen that I'll be debating and we will be discussing the crucifixion and the reliability of the

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Testament and the deity of Christ all those key issues to deal with When you deal with the subject of Islam, and so we would highly encourage you to be there

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It's one thing to listen to those debates It's something else to be there and get to hear for example, some of the audience comments that do not make it

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So you you definitely will want to be there especially my friends out at Westminster Seminary in Escondido I hope some of you can come out as well for the

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Sunday afternoon Encounter at that particular point in time. So that's what's coming up.

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And then the week after that is the Ligonier conference here in Phoenix and yeah This year is just flying by isn't it and then only got to October and Six days into November headed off for London I'm very very appreciative of those you have given sacrificially and specially to make that trip work

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I continue to pray for that and we certainly could continue to use your support for that effort

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Need to get hold of the folks in the television channel They aren't responding to my emails and I'm a little bit concerned

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Especially this time of year people go on holiday in in England and we call them vacations they call them holidays, and I'm a little concerned that the person whose email address

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I have is on holiday and So I just sent an email to somebody else Could we try another way to get through here because I want to have all this stuff

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Lined up and I will be putting up. I know some of you have asked we I think didn't you get a call from London?

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Someone asking I want to know exactly where he's gonna be and when and so on so forth I'll be trying to put that together as best.

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I can it's not always easy to do and some people know How well

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I did before the new? format of the website in keeping up on the calendar page and It was more of a historical thing, but a bit of a joke, but anyhow, so we'll try to let you know about that and of course

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Still need to let everybody know we're doing a cruise and a conference at the end of January Sometimes I think because it's in January it just seems like it's forever away because For us there's like this is wall between December and January and then you get

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January and start thinking about the rest of year well doesn't work that way and I Really encourage you to be looking forward to the conference that we will be having the debate that I'll be having with Bart Ehrman I honestly think that'll be one of the most important debates we've ever done

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Bart Ehrman is Undoubtedly considered the leading critic of the New Testament critic in a negative sense of the

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New Testament today his materials are utilized by every community college philosophy professor out there to attempt to convert our young people away from faith in Christ and So the subject the topic everything is exactly what we would want it to be and so I'm very much looking forward to that debate

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And so I would encourage you to be making plans to be there register for the conference There'll be some great speakers as well as the debate itself and then of course a wonderful time of fellowship on the cruise

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That follows thereafter. It's only a four -day. So it's not one of those big huge things. We have to burn every bit of Vacation that you have ever built up and so I would encourage you to look at the website and to join us on that It's also exceptionally

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Cost friendly I dare you to look at our costs and compare them to pretty much anybody else and when you do you'll go

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Whoa, okay. All right, that's mmm. Yeah. All right We do this as a relief as a perspective of ministry and so I would encourage you to take a look at that So with that having been said before we

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I start listening to Patrick Madrid again. I Want to read a portion?

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From my response to Patrick Madrid's hit article called the white man's burden and In essence

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I'm addressing here some conversations that took place between myself and Carl Keating and Patrick Madrid after the debate and in essence,

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I pointed out that The definition that Patrick Madrid attempted to force me to defend is not the definition of soul scripture

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Found in historical documents in the Westminster Confession of Faith in the

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London Baptist Confession of Faith. It is a straw man and his response was fascinating And I reproduced it in in the material notice what he says quote

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Assume this is an accurate statement that Pat used the definition different from yours So what he wasn't debating

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James White's definition He was debating what he and I and many others consider to be the real world definition of solo scriptura as found among Bible Christians Please note that the resolution of the debate didn't define solo scriptura

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That was up to the debaters if they wanted to use slightly different definitions. They had a right to do so Whether or not your definition agree with Pat's I don't think they were far apart at all

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The debate wasn't about fixing a definition It was mainly about arguing whether particular verses supported solo scriptura that argument can be carried out

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Even if the debaters differ a bit on their definitions, by the way Pat wasn't supposed to deal with your affirmative proposition both the affirmative proposition found in the resolution

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That's what he did debate propositions are framed in the resolution itself. Not in the first speaker's opening statement to which

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I responded at the time Try to imagine how mr. Keating would respond if the roles were reversed.

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Let's say that I debated mr Keating on the immaculate conception and by the way, I'd be more than happy to do so, but mr

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Keating doesn't debate anymore and After his opening statements decide to present my own definition of that doctrine or let's say we were debating papal infallibility

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And I said to mr. Keating now, I believe this doctrine means that Popes are supposed to be sinless So, how do you explain

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Alexander the sixth or a John the twelfth? Would mr. Keating feel it was okay for me to redefine his doctrines and then insist that he defend my redefinitions

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Well, of course not he would rightly protested to be fair. I must accurately and honestly portray the

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Roman doctrines as they are defined by Rome yet seemingly the men of Catholic answers do not extend this treatment to others here the president of Catholic answers seemingly says

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Hey sure Patrick is different definition. But so what who said he had to debate your definition a fascinating admission

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Indeed, and so I I do find that quite interesting and quite representative of the fact that in essence

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Catholic answers feels they can determine What our doctrines are use their definitions and even when we say that's a straw man

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Well doesn't matter we can I've met people that believe that well, I've met Roman Catholics to believe almost anything

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I've met Roman Catholics who present all sorts of things that the men of Catholic answers would say. Oh, no. No, no No, that's that's not

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Catholic. No, no, no, no Yeah, okay, I see a little bit of a double standard here and Most indeed.

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All right, let's go back and pick up right where we left off on the subject of Sola scriptura

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Patrick Madrid is just beginning his opening statement this So my task is to demonstrate the

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Sola scriptura is unbiblical. I don't have to prove the case for tradition Mr. White claims that I must be able to prove every point from scripture alone.

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So Sola scriptura itself Must be proved from scripture alone. Now once again,

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I just want to mention I have many times challenged these individuals to Positively defend their claims to ultimate authority.

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That's not what I like to do like they like to attack Sola scriptura That's that's their thing and they don't want to have to apply the same standards to their own claims that they apply to the claims of others but if you are going to use if you're going to assume the correctness of the

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Roman Catholic concept of tradition as Part of your argument against Sola scriptura, then

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I insist that you do need to prove it If you're not going to prove it if you are going to just let it, you know

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You know stand on its on its own assertion, but use it as a part of your argument

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Which I assert is exactly what they do. Then you do have to defend it But that's exactly what they don't want to do if it can't be done.

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Sola scriptura is a self -refuting proposition Therefore it is false Tonight's debate is about truth the truth

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Jesus wants for you and for me to stand firm and hold fast to So what is the truth about Sola scriptura?

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Does the Bible really teach it? Did the Apostles teach it? Did Jesus teach it?

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Many approach scripture with a predetermined conviction that the Catholic Church must be wrong So they search to find verses which they can cobble together in an attempt to refute a given

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Catholic teaching Their hostility to the Catholic Church often makes it very difficult for them to view the

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Catholic case Objectively, I would ask you to please tonight put aside any

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Predetermined ideas you may have about Sola scriptura pro or con let the Lord speak to you tonight through scripture

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You'll see I believe that the Bible does not teach Sola scriptura. The Apostles did not teach

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Sola scriptura Jesus did not teach teach Sola scriptura And I believe that if you want to be faithful to the teachings of Jesus You must reject

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Sola scriptura as a tradition of men if you don't reject it God will hold you accountable

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How does an apologist commonly make several mistakes in their zeal to vindicate Sola scriptura

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My opponent tonight may not make all of these mistakes But you need to know about them so that you can know how to handle them when you encounter them

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Mistake number one if you have your notepads out. I'd ask you to write these down mistake number one Confusing formal and material sufficiency.

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This is a crucial point in tonight's debate now, by the way this I believe Was the first time that mr.

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Madrid ever raised this distinction in fact I I haven't taken time to do it, but I scanned through it once and I'd be happy to be shown my error

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But I do not believe that this distinction appears in Carl Keating's book at least as it existed in 1993 it may have been added at a point after that but this was the first time that they attempted to use this kind of discussion

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Unfortunately they do so seemingly without recognizing the Evolutionary nature of the

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Roman Catholic position in regards to this issue and since it doesn't get a whole lot of definition during the debate let me mention it to you now and that is

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You have those who say that the scriptures are materially sufficient, but not formally sufficient

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They're materially sufficient in that all the divine revelation is at least Implicitly found in the written scriptures now realize that for Rome implicitly means that you can look at Revelation 12 and the woman and that's

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Mary and you can look at Luke 128 and build a Colossus of theology out of an angelic greeting so saying something is implicitly found in Scripture from the

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Roman Catholic Perspective basically means that there are enough words in Scripture that we can crowbar anything

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Into what the Bible says all right and anybody could use that the Mormon could say oh, I believe it's materially sufficient.

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You know Yeah, we don't have clear statements of the exaltation of Godhood But you look over here what

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Jesus said to your God just like you know you can anybody can can make the implicit claim

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Where well okay the grammar doesn't say it in the syntax doesn't mean and then in the original context that wouldn't necessarily

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But you see the church's tradition allows us to see this blah blah blah blah blah

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That was not the perspective of the majority of people to counsel of Trent Number put in a majority people to counsel

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Trent when they first wrote their first definition of the issue of The relationship of Scripture and tradition used phraseology called partum partum

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Latin for partly and partly That is God's Revelation is given partly in the written tradition

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Scripture and partly in the oral tradition now Anybody who adopts the material sufficiency thing the material sufficiency position

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You should not hear them quoting 2nd Thessalonians chapter 2 verse 15 Why because 2nd

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Thessalonians 2 15 which speaks of the traditions which were passed on to us whether by word of mouth or by letter?

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Shouldn't be relevant to them because everything that's in the written is What's Revelation at least implicitly, but you see everybody knows that Everything that Rome has defined solely on the basis of tradition is not actually found in Scripture You cannot find papal infallibility in Scripture Just listen to these people try to come up with a means of defending papal infallibility from Scripture.

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It is Ridiculous, it's so easy to demonstrate that they are grossly misusing the text that it's ridiculous

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The Marian dogmas again, you know going off to Solomon's Solomon and his mother and Trying to build some type of queenly coronation silliness out of this

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I love when they do that kind of stuff because only the most starry -eyed Romanist is

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Sitting there going. Wow, that's great Everybody else who has a has any sense whatsoever of reading something in context that his historical context of Scripture blah blah blah

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They they're sitting there going you're you're seriously suggesting this is a meaningful use of the text

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So I love when they go that direction. It's it's it's amazing as to how that works so anyway

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What you'll hear is you'll hear them and this is what Madrid's gonna do in this debate He's gonna talk about Oh material sufficiency material sufficiency

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So he does not have to defend the idea that in the oral tradition you find Paul actually teaching the stuff

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Rome teaches Because that's what second Thessalonians 215 would mean

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If you're gonna cite that passage Then what it means is that Paul had already delivered to the

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Thessalonians in his first epistle and in his preaching all these doctrines and dogmas so he had already taught the

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Thessalonians about papal infallibility, even though there wasn't a poke yet and He had already taught them about the Marian dogmas

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Even though history is silent has absolutely no evidence whatsoever that anybody back then believed what

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Rome teaches today as dogma about Mary and so They don't want to have to defend that because they can't it's not possible.

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It's impossible But they still need to find a way of defending this up.

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So what they do is they'll assert material sufficiency But then they'll quote these texts about tradition in their attacks on soil scriptura

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And when you start to refute them, then they back off to the material sufficiency I don't I believe material sufficiency.

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You're just confusing people. I believe material sufficiency then why you're quoting second Thessalonians 2 Why are you talking about this tradition? Well, it's just an interpretive tradition

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Oh So what you're telling us is that what Paul taught the Thessalonians to do was to interpret scripture

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Not all of which he actually had been written yet in such a way that they would see in Luke 1 28 all the

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Marian dogmas and They would understand papal infallibility through the interpretive methodology delivered to the

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Thessalonians Is that what you're saying? And they don't want to go there their people don't don't force them to go there

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Only we do and so they don't want to go there. So they'll take two different positions and At one point though, they'll they'll push the part and part of my idea

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But then as soon as you challenge them to demonstrate hey show me that what you have in in those oral traditions

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Substantiates the dogmas that you have defined on the basis that oh, no, no, no no, we don't have to do that because I believe in material sufficiency see and So you'll hear him do this back and forth back and forth a number of times

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Use one argument and then back off to a position that doesn't make as much of a claim But then go back out to it later on and say oh you're just misunderstanding me

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You're you don't understand what's going on here, etc. So you're making errors. That's exactly how

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Roman Catholic controversialists are functioning in our our modern context It may surprise you to learn that the

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Catholic position allows for what we call the material sufficiency of Scripture This means that Scripture contains everything necessary for Christian teaching now

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Do you notice he said allows for later on? He's going to say something else.

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He's going to say the Catholic position is and it isn't Where his Rome dogmatically defined material sufficiency as the dogmatic position of the church

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It's it's just you know, all you got to do. I would love to see I personally think

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Carl Keating and Patrick Madrid and Jimmy Akin Absolutely Have a moral responsibility

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To debate gerrymantics. I really do I I think they put him out there

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They put his pictures in this rock They're the ones that gave this guy his start and I think they've got a more responsibility to debate that guy

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I would love to listen to them crossing Roman swords Swinging at each other with with swords all forged out of the dogmatic documents of the

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Roman Catholic Church And that's exactly why they won't do it because they know that would be the greatest

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Refutation of their own arguments that's ever been put on Video and they know it and that's why they stay away from him assiduously,

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I Would love to see it happen I really really would but ain't gonna be happening anytime soon all doctrines can be found there

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Implicitly or explicitly, but they're all there Formal sufficiency on the other hand is the position that mr

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White is attempting to prove formal sufficiency means that scripture contains all necessary Christian truth

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And this is very important and that scriptures meaning is so clear that the church and tradition are not necessary to arrive at an accurate interpretation of the meaning of scripture

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That's not true Let's let's try to correct that what he's going to try to do later on is he is going to go directly against the actual statements of the

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Westminster Confession of Faith that demon that specifically says not all portions of scripture are alike clear and He's going to try to do the divide and conquer thing

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This this review is going to be really helpful in going through all the different errors that Roman Catholics make in trying to attack

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Sola Scriptura, I really think that it will be he's gonna go through all that stuff the idea of material sufficiency is

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That the scriptures are meant to function as the sole infallible rule of faith the church without the addition of any kind of Likewise infallible teaching authority that they contain within themselves the ability upon due application upon due application of effort of study

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To function as the sole infallible rule of the faith of the church it is not and this is you're gonna hear him do this

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It's cheap shot. He's wrong demonstrates. He can't win this argument against the actual doctrine of Sola Scriptura But he's going to later on say look the fact

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There's all these different perspectives the fact that the point the surface meaning of the text is not enough

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No one's saying the surface meaning the text is enough No one is saying that someone who's completely

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Ignorant of the Bible completely ignorant of the people of Israel can just pick the thing up and read a few pages go

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Oh, I've got the whole thing. No one is saying that But that's what they want us to try to defend is that well that this is exactly what we are saying it is not

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And this goes back to what I read to you at the beginning. Hey, we don't need to use your definition We don't need to go after what you actually are saying

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That's that's where again When I debate the

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Marian dogmas What source do I use to define them Rome's?

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infallible dogmatic Definitions why can't Patrick Madrid and Carl Keating and these guys do the same thing in reverse?

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Well, they just can't in the course of this debate. Mr White may make the mistake of assuming that the Catholic Church rejects the material sufficiency of Scripture It doesn't what it does reject is the error of the formal sufficiency of Scripture as a

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Catholic I contend that all Christian doctrines are at least implicitly present in Scripture But that doesn't mean

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Scripture is always sufficiently clear so that every Christian doctrine is explicitly and conclusively evidence

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For example, the Bible does not say the Christian should baptize infants in order to say that only adults must be baptized

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Now notice what he's doing We're at an Orthodox Presbyterian Church and he is beginning the divide and conquer and you know

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They sat down in the offices of Catholic answers said oh, let's do this. Let's do this You know, the difference is and this could come up a number of times you know the difference between Roman Catholics and Protestants this point is that I can get together and I did in 1995 about Right at two years after this had the first debate we had in this subject one of the people

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I was debating and dr. Robert strumble very well -known Presbyterian professor and scholar and Most of you know that I debated

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Bill Shishko on this subject a couple years ago right around this time Two years ago now and that was followed with a by a

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Skype debate with Greg Strawbridge Every single one of them by the way, just to mention it again in passing every single one of them

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I was responding to the challenge to debate those issues. I did not issue those challenges to debate and What did each one of them?

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demonstrate that we as Brothers in Christ who share the same gospel who share a commitment to sola scriptura

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Can go to the inspired text of Scripture to debate that very issue

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We don't have to go to the code of Canon law and we have to go to this council and to that council

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Because the fact of the matter is folks You can't go to those councils because they don't speak with one voice on so many issues

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They don't clarify they confuse they don't clarify the biblical text in any way shape or form and So we can confess that we together as brothers can go to the biblical text to address these issues

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That's where the difference lies and that's where we have Demonstrated the consistency of our position in approaching it in exactly that way doesn't tell us

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Paul and the other writers of the New Testament Assume their readers already knew the answer to this question from observing the practice of the church

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So they didn't see the need to address this issue explicitly some people such as Lutherans Methodists and Presbyterians say the biblical evidence that baptized the babies were baptized in the

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New Testament is Good, so therefore we should baptize babies Others such as Baptists Pentecostals and Jehovah's Witnesses say the biblical evidence shows that babies were not and should not be baptized

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Scholars on both sides of the debate admit that the biblical evidence is simply inconclusive but if the evidence is inconclusive on this or any other doctrine and scripture is

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Manifestly not sufficient to give us a conclusive interpretation of everything that it teaches in fact scripture itself

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Denies that its doctrines are always clear to all readers in 2nd Peter 3 verses 15 and 16

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Now here is one of the key texts now listen and see if Mr.

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Madrid will give you a meaningful exegesis of this text or whether he will simply use it and then avoid its actual meaning to me

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Our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him He writes the same way in all his letters speaking in them of these matters

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His letters contain some things that are hard to understand which the ignorant and the unstable

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People distort as they do other scriptures to their own destruction So we see here that the

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Bible warns us that if doctrines can be misunderstood They can be unclear and it can be distorted now

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Can Roman Catholic doctrines be unclear misunderstood and distorted of course anything can be

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Anything can be the most simple truths are all liable to Distortion by those who desire to distort truth big deal

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But does the text teach what Roman Catholic controversialist would have us to teach? Have us to believe it teaches.

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No of course it doesn't notice what says notice He says in his letter there are some things if it's some things that means that there are other things that are what?

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Patently clear and obvious, right and Then it says that certain untaught and unstable

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Individuals distort their own destruction if there are untaught and unstable individuals

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What does that mean? That means that there are taught and stable individuals who do not

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Distort God's truth to their own destruction instead. They handle the Word of God a right to the benefit of the people of God and So I'd amazes me it shouldn't because Roman Catholics don't do exegesis

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I mean, let's let's let's be honest with ourselves Roman Catholic apologists don't do exegesis

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That's not their forte there. They need to be exegete in a whole big body of stuff called the dogmatic teaching the

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Roman Catholic Church And they they you know you got to feel sorry for these folks that they're conservatives in a very liberal modern

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Roman Catholic Church They they got to be trying to make Rome look like something that really isn't anymore They know that the majority of their bishops and their cardinals and their prelates are way to their left in their theological perspectives

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It must be a really weird thing to be trying to defend a church like that, but hey You know that's their their road to to hoe in essence

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Their row to hoe I know it row to hoe means Anyway But they're not doing exegesis, and they're not gonna look at this text now

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I realize that by quoting this I'm actually saying that there are certain taught and stable men who

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Can handle the Word of God a right and that there are things in Scripture that are self -evidently clear But instead they want to turn around say see be afraid of Scripture.

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It can be misused That's again why they won't debate gerrymatitics because they'll then you can turn on say

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I from your perspective isn't Jerry doing exactly what you say your magisterium keeps from happening

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I Mean if you have this happening in your own fellowship in your own communion

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He's using the same sources. You say are sufficient to answer all these questions

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Hmm sounds like your arguments somewhat self -refuting isn't it yeah, yeah, that's exactly

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I'm speaking of gerrymatitics just in passing. How'd you like that segue which is everything? We have a a new debate format available to you and a couple of you have found out about it

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But we need to put a big advertising banner up. We are starting to make the move

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Into making our stuff available in downloadable form and video format Obviously the fact that I do so much on YouTube and You know we've got over 720 ,000 video views now on the

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YouTube account coming up on a million. It's pretty pretty good pretty great The fact that we're doing all that stuff starts making you go.

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Well. You know it sure would be nice to be able to Put this debate On on my iPod because that's how people watch a lot of stuff anymore watch on the computer watch on the iPod

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Well, we have the first one done, and it is the Marion doc dogmas debate I think that was one of the best debates is the very first one on Long Island, and I thought it was it went very very well and So it's available.

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I think it's number 574 on 572 on the website and And you download that baby and sticker and iTunes and There you go.

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You can it looks really really sharp and nice It's playable under QuickTime and also you can import it into iTunes and put it on your iPod and the video on iPod looks fantastic Yes, it does.

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Yeah, it really does I won't mention the specific program, but a couple years ago

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I was following a particular weekly program And I was traveling so I couldn't see it and so it was really cool to be able to download that and watch it on My iPod and I gotta admit

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It's not difficult to to follow along. You know it's even that tiny little screen and the resolutions quite high so Speaking of gerrymatics back when gerrymatics was still considered

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Orthodox Roman Catholic And he of course is still consider himself that just hey, that's an argument for their side to take care of Well, we'll let them do that kind of thing, but that is available on the website now

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So you might want to be looking for that and of course we are going to be continuing to offer more and more of that material putting the great debates and the others that we're doing on that format and making them available to you, so Avail yourself of the opportunities

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Okay, so we come back to we don't have this one on video unfortunately. It wasn't videotaped, but It would have been interesting so hey, you know maybe

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Patrick would like to do it again Since he's 2 -0 Maybe we could do it again and put it on video this time

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And then he could make it available to people on iPod because if he's 2 -0 I mean he's gonna win again, right? There's no way that I can win a debate on solo scriptura

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Well wait a minute actually Patrick told me that I beat gerrymatics in a debate on solo scriptura

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And then that odd, but anyway we continue on mistake number two using a hermeneutic of anachronism

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Protestant apologists read back into scripture and the writings of the church fathers the particular doctrines

33:59

They wish to find and they ignore or explain away what they don't wish to see That is well the best descriptions ever heard of exactly what

34:10

Roman Catholicism does the church fathers my goodness How many times we demonstrated the anachronistic reading of early church fathers by Roman Catholic controversialists?

34:20

I mean, it's constant It's all the time and they have to do it because their ultimate authority says

34:27

This has been the constant teaching of the church. We are infallible therefore if you put those glasses on and start reading nearly church fathers

34:36

What are you gonna find? You're gonna find that kind of stuff all through the text, and what are you gonna?

34:42

Do listen? It'll be the Which one will it be it'll be actually be should be the next one that rich would be digitizing and making available is my debate on solo scriptura with gerrymantics and Every time that I throw out something that is from an early church father that disagrees this position well

35:04

That's just his personal opinion Mr.. White that's just his person that was just to him that speaking as a private theologian

35:10

The magical circularity of Romanism is so amazing to watch You know we are having a conversation with a

35:18

Catholic convert in channel recently and we were talking about papal infallibility and we brought up the issue of honorius again, and it if you want to see circularity if you want to see how tightly a person can spin in a circle

35:33

Then get a Roman Catholic talking about papal infallibility because what they'll do is they well The everything the

35:40

Pope says isn't infallible well that that's true. Okay, so how do you know? What is infallible and what is not infallible and the only way they can do it is by?

35:51

looking back over succeeding generations because we pointed out look in the days when honorius writes his letter and in these centuries after honorius where honorius himself is anathematized by a general counsel and every bishop of Rome that takes the chair of Peter Anathematizes honorius in taking the chair of Peter in all those centuries

36:13

Where they hadn't developed this idea of papal infallibility where they hadn't come up with these wonderful definitions that makes everything go away

36:19

How could you have known at that time? How could you have known in the days of honorius that what honorius was writing as the bishop of Rome was not in fact?

36:30

Infallible truth, and they have no way of answering that they can't answer that it's not possible and So the definition is just so wonderful in that it's it's you can't disprove it.

36:43

It's impossible to disprove it It is it is not subject to being disproven

36:49

Because basically it boils down to this the Pope's infallible and when he makes a mistake he wasn't speaking infallibly

36:57

That's great. I love it What a wonderful definition and you can you can bring that out and show that to people and see and show them

37:05

Did you realize that what you're saying is the Pope's infallible except when he's not do you realize that's what you're saying and?

37:12

They'll just sit there and oh and isn't it wonderful Isn't it? I just love the liturgy. It's so beautiful, and you're like wow

37:19

You you don't see that. Oh, yeah, just the the blinds go down. I was like nope didn't notice that one

37:26

So it is amazing Mormons do this in their attempt to prove so called that the Bible in the early church believed in many gods

37:34

Since the time the devil used scripture to tempt Jesus in the desert doctrinal error has always been advanced under the guise of Bible verses

37:42

Jesus said in Matthew 7 verse 15 beware of false prophets who will come to you in sheep's clothing

37:49

But underneath they are ravenous wolves error comes packaged under the wrapping paper of Bible verses

37:59

Yeah, including Including Patrick Madrid's attempts to defend the papacy and the

38:05

Marian dogmas and yeah No one's gonna disagree with that, but does that mean that those

38:11

Bible verses are being rightly used? That they are being rightly exegeted well of course not

38:18

Aryans did it the Albigensians did it the Mormons do it And I'm afraid tonight.

38:24

Mr.. White is doing it Mistake number three thinking that the phrase word of God applies now by the way

38:30

I cannot tell you how many Roman Catholics have expressed such anger and Have accused me of being mean -spirited and nasty and heartless and harsh

38:42

Whenever I have even for a moment made a connection in Methodology between Roman Catholicism and anybody especially

38:51

Mormonism. Oh You're so nasty. You're so hate -filled and Yet didn't so Patrick Madrid.

38:58

Just link me to Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons and so on so forth. I think he just did

39:04

But I never hear anybody complaining about that for some reason mmm sounds like a double scripture alone

39:10

Scripture does refer to itself as God's Word, but many other things are called God's Word as well for example

39:15

We see Jesus is called the Word of God in flesh in John 1 verses 1 through 14 The Bible speaks of God's sovereign blessings that he speaks on his people as his word in Isaiah 55 verses 10 through 11

39:28

And the Bible calls the oral proclamation of the gospel the Word of God such as in 1st

39:34

Thessalonians 2 13 Where Paul says and for this reason we to give thanks to God unceasingly that in receiving the

39:41

Word of God from hearing us You have received not a human word, but as it truly is the

39:46

Word of God now again I think one of the problems that Catholic answers had at least initially and I don't think they've outgrown it is that Carl Keating started it and the kind of people

40:03

That Keating was trying to respond to Could be very

40:10

And I want to use this term carefully, but very fundamentalist in their perspective in the sense that A lot of people they're responding.

40:20

You know like the Alamos or something. I mean Jack Chick, okay We're not talking about people who you know do a whole lot of study in church history.

40:30

You know I remember when I I sent the debate tapes from the third

40:39

Debate that I did which was with Jerry Matitix on the papacy out in Tempe, Arizona in December of 1990 yeah

40:50

December of 90 and I sent those Cassette tapes yes cassette tapes

40:58

We needed to find that for the younger people in the audience sadly I sent those cassette tapes to Dave Hunt this was back before Dave Hunt had gone off on his anti -Calvinism harangues and And Dave scribbled me a note back to basically said

41:14

I don't worry about church history stuff. I just go with the Bible Now it's not quite true. He did eventually try to do church history stuff

41:22

Not well, but he tried and that's one of the really bad things is I recently was watching portions

41:29

I haven't listened the whole thing yet But I was watching portions as I was recording it of his debate with Shabir Ali and Hmm Hmm This is bad as I expected me, but anyway, that's kind of attitude.

41:42

I don't worry about church history. Don't worry about that kind of thing Reformed apologists

41:49

Do not argue the way that a King James only fundamentalist would

41:56

We do understand history And we do understand the role of history and the importance of history and and we understand what tradition is we recognize that we have traditions and We recognize the necessity of subjugating those traditions to the higher authority of that which is the honest awesome scripture so we present a completely different perspective in essence than they do and Yet, they just don't seem to be able to grow past that fundamentalism

42:28

Response and stage and so when they talk about well look first Thessalonians chapter 2 says that you

42:38

That the Word of God was spoken to them Yeah, okay No problem with that whatsoever

42:45

Don't have any issues that well, then where is that now? See, that's that's the implicit assertion is that you see the the oral word was spoken now

42:55

They believe in material sufficiency. It shouldn't be overly relevant should it be this is where the part and part of stuff comes in but even at that This is why

43:05

I asked and and I said a couple weeks ago I hope I have improved in my understanding both the

43:12

Roman Catholic position soil scriptura since 1993 What I should have asked Patrick at some point

43:18

And it was a fairly short debate So there wasn't a lot of time, but I should have asked the same question of Patrick that I did six years later when

43:26

I debated Mitchell Pacwa in San Diego again on this subject and I asked

43:32

Mitch Pacwa an honest question that I think is very important for people to hear I Asked them

43:39

I asked him this question Can you name a single word?

43:46

phrase sentence Spoken by Jesus Christ or by any of the

43:52

Apostles That has been dogmatically defined by the Roman Catholic Church that is not found in Scripture Because see

44:01

I've listened to these Catholic converts They write their conversion stories and the surprised by truth thing and they all say the same thing.

44:10

Oh My eyes were opened when I realized solo scriptura was wrong

44:16

Because the Word of God was orally preached and so there must be more

44:21

And I just want to go, um, excuse me, but um What one word of Paul just one word?

44:31

one syllable That Paul ever spoke has Rome ever dogmatically defined that does not exist in Scripture What did he say that Rome's tradition gives you that Scripture does not dogmatically?

44:43

Where is it a? Word of Jesus a worthy Apostles and there's silence

44:51

Because Mitch Pacwa Was very honest. He sat there and said well, no, there's nothing

45:00

We've never no nope, and Yet people write entire tomes

45:07

Based upon the assumption at all. I'm just so glad to have access to all this stuff. I didn't have before What do you mean you didn't have before You had

45:18

Scripture and Rome isn't giving you anything. All she's giving you is her perversions of Scripture I'll be that's a strong word.

45:26

But hey, look at look at indulgences and go read Hebrews. Okay, that's that's a good good example

45:31

So remember when you see tonight or here tonight the phrase Word of God, it doesn't always mean the

45:37

Bible We have to be careful. Oh, by the way, you know why he's doing this I always found this to be interesting and I know you have to do it up to a certain point but He's debating my presentation from 1990 in August 1990 against Jerry Madetik, which by the way does exist on video

45:53

I would love to see it, but no one ever has it again is held by Scott Butler and Scott Butler got into an argument with Catholic answers and no one ended up with the videotape of that debate

46:04

I'd love to see it. It would have at least historical interest in value now. I have to wonder if the tapes even still exist

46:12

But that initial debate August 1990 we don't have it We we wish we did but we we don't have it and the two debates with Mitch Pacwa in a

46:24

January of 1991 San Diego tapes exist professionally recorded never made available

46:31

Scott Butler has them at least I think yeah Yeah, but most definitely Scott Butler has them and I've called upon Scott Butler many times do the right thing

46:38

Scott We have how many debates we ought to sit down sometime and figure out how many debates

46:44

Alvin and Megan ministries has done where we have handed to the Roman Catholic debater at the end of the night or shipped within a few weeks depending on whether we did it there that evening or whether the videotapes to distribute as they pleased of that debate for Absolutely positively nothing.

47:04

In fact, many of them got honorariums for being there that night Anyways, so they got paid to be there to do the debate and they got the video for nothing

47:11

We paid the shipping Scott Butler do the right thing. Anybody who knows Scott Butler contact him say

47:16

Scott do the right thing send master copies of the initial debate with Jerry matics on Sola scriptura and the two debates with Mitch Pacwa in San Diego to Alvin Omega ministries and give them full rights of distribution do the right thing

47:30

If you don't you're admitting they lost all those debates That's that's what you're admitting that they lost it of it and Scott Butler admitted that to me

47:37

So he said that to me in private conversation that you well, you know Father Pacwa isn't as good a debater as you know, it's got

47:45

Han Well, we can't get Scott on the debate anyways, so do the right thing. Mr. Butler and Let let the videotapes go free the tapes free the text.

47:56

We should show up outside of his office That's you know science free of the tapes Let let people see the search for the context of this verse in the meaning or the meaning of this person context

48:06

Now, mr White will only beg the question if he tries to use verses such as psalm 119 89

48:12

Where the psalmist says forever O Lord your word is settled in the heavens this verse and the other verses like it

48:17

Which which describe the attributes of the Word of God don't prove the formal sufficiency of Scripture All they prove is that there is a certain attribute that the

48:27

Word of God has and again We have to know whether it's the written Word of God or the oral Word of God or the Word of God in flesh

48:33

Bible uses it in various ways mistake number four confusing testimony with authority

48:38

Some Protestants argue that if the Catholic Church were the official witness to God's Word, it would be over God's Word This is false

48:47

Just because one person serves as one as a witness to another person doesn't mean that he has an authority over that person now

48:54

Here we we we enter into a particular area of real of a real problem

49:01

In regards to his position and that is the very issue that the caller brought

49:06

I remember what started all this was I played a call where someone called in asked Patrick Madrid about this debate

49:11

He promoted as you know, this great beyond and all of all things demonstrating the soul scripture isn't true And now we're demonstrating that what it is a straw man attacking souls return

49:20

And one of the questions that the caller had was what about ultimate authorities what about ultimate authorities

49:26

He didn't really answer that question and I have said many times and I repeat it right now

49:32

And this will be my closing statement on this because we're gonna take a phone call another subject But I repeat it right now There is no way for a

49:40

Roman Catholic to defend the idea that they are simply Presenting the authority of the church as a witness to Scripture Rome gets to define

49:48

What is and what is not Scripture? He's gonna use the canon argument later on He's gonna wait to the second rebuttal period to do it, but he's gonna use the canon argument later on That means he's saying

49:57

Rome defines the canon then Rome defines infallible teaching of Scripture So what

50:03

Scripture is and what Scripture says is determined by whom? Rome when it comes the idea of tradition who defines what is and what is not tradition

50:13

Rome when it comes to the issue of what tradition teaches or means who defines it

50:18

Rome Don't tell me Rome is under the authority of anything or is equal in authority with anything else

50:25

When you cannot define what Scripture is and what it means outside the true outside of Romans authority when you can't define what tradition is

50:32

Or what it means outside of Rome's authority folks. That's sola ecclesia They don't like us pointing that out, but that's the way it is

50:43

And if you can demonstrate how that's different if you can demonstrate that's not the case now

50:48

There are there are less conservative Roman Catholics who aren't Catholic apologists who will who won't argue like a

50:55

Madrid does or won't argue like an like like Gerry Madityx used to argue or something like that and They'll they'll say well, you know

51:03

We don't make quite that strident Assertion. Yes you do If and when when they come out and start saying the

51:10

Patrick Madrid's and Tim Staples the world's are all washed up They're all wrong that we're talking about. Okay, fine until they're willing to do that.

51:17

Then that's situation we're facing now, we're gonna step aside of that from just a moment and Take phone call from Cape Coral, Florida, let's talk with Mike.

51:30

Hi Mike How you doing I understand let me let me bring the audience up to speed here real quick I don't even know how long ago it was

51:39

What was it about a month month and a half two months ago? I don't remember what it was. I put up a very brief blog post

51:47

Because I think someone in channel or somebody sent me an email. I forget how it was, but I ran across Joel Hemphill's book or an advertisement for his book

51:59

That basically presents an Aryan denial of the deity of Christ now

52:05

Joel Hemphill has pretty much a oneness type background so that's a rather interesting transition from Jesus only to the father only but That's even terminology that I understand even he's utilized

52:15

And so I just mentioned this and mentioned once again the irony of the fact that someone who is anti Trinitarian would be singing in Baptist churches and and And things like that just as an illustration of something

52:32

I've pointed out with Phillips Craig and Dean and others that there just doesn't seem to be any theological discernment when it comes to this this issue of worship and Theology in the church and things like that so Last week we got a phone call here at the office

52:49

From Joel Hemphill and he and Rich went round -and -round and my understanding is you've had a few conversations, too

52:56

And you're calling in to sort of fill us in on what those conversations were about That is sure to segue into that what happened was

53:03

Doctorized several months ago. My mother actually had received his well his scholarly pamphlet

53:11

Shocking admissions facing the truth regarding the doctrine of eternity By the

53:16

Prophet Joel Hemphill the Prophet and the reason why I say I'll call upon is very careful It's because last night my discussion with him.

53:23

He did not at all He did not at all except The position of being called the

53:29

Prophet because I had mentioned this to him I said well you're acting in a prophetical role and the terms of a prophet you say

53:35

God spoke to you back in 1986 Did basically straighten out this whole matter? So you as a prophet are telling us basically the whole kitten caboodle as to why the

53:45

Trinity Doctrine is wrong And he didn't and he never denied The issue of being called a prophet.

53:52

Hmm, and I even said hey look, I'm gonna call the program tomorrow James has already invited you to do it.

53:58

I Encourage you to do it. He said he wouldn't do it. He said he would rather have you call him But I say look if I if I stay anything on the radio tomorrow that you take issue with please call in and set me

54:08

Right. I have no problem with that So I'm calling in I wanted to be made to make it know that I talked to him last night

54:15

Very round -robin Basically, he got into his preaching mode for a while So I sat there patiently to listen to him and he was highly offended with rich because of their

54:26

Because of their their discussion and obviously he did take issue with some of your comments regarding his his stance on Arianism and of course agreeing with Muslims as to their version of Christ and you know

54:40

Basically went to the he went to the point to her. Hey, look, I'm not a Jehovah's Witness. I'm not a

54:45

Muslim I don't know why James has said that I don't know why you're saying it Well, we're not saying it and James had never accused you it he's saying regarding some

54:55

Some of your comments they'd line up with their thinking right that doesn't make you them in terms of your overall theology

55:03

That that just that just requires very fundamental ability to think in categories properly and it doesn't sound like Like he's exercising that fundamental capacity.

55:13

I know in his conversation with rich rich kept asking him. What did James say? That was wrong? Well He said he likened me to Muslims and over and over again the same type of category errors rather than actually dealing with The fact that in reality he is saying he is denying the deity of Christ and in so doing that's the only issue

55:35

That's the only thing to really address now just it's interesting something you just said let me see if I can address this so I got a couple minutes, but does

55:43

Does he say that he? He received Revelation on this subject.

55:50

Yes, that's correct that God personally spoke to him about this So this is the 28th book of the New Testament now called

55:56

Pampylions, well, you know, hey you mentioned our Roman Catholic friends just moments ago dealing with how Rome get to define

56:02

What is not scripture? Well, I think we have some of an applicable situation here with Joel Yeah, yeah, and then you can summary, you know,

56:09

I'm saying so But as you would say do the right thing and hey Joel, you know, I even asked him

56:15

I know cuz he was very very clear Hey, look, I have converted thousands over my position thousands

56:23

Name five I don't need to do that.

56:29

Yeah, I told you look if you're a prophet and you want to straighten out this entire matter and you're Loving enough.

56:36

Okay Why can't you simply suggest hey look call so -and -so I Converted him from this position.

56:42

He can fill you in you're not even willing to do that to me That's very suspicious. And so he said in turn.

56:48

He said are you calling me a liar? I said, well you are alive you are and He wanted basically to end the conversation at that point.

56:56

Mm -hmm My another thing that rich really challenged him on was what are you doing singing in Trinitarian churches?

57:03

And taking their money and You know, it would be one thing, you know

57:11

I would speak at a at a oneness church as long as I was debating and defending the Trinity And I was defending justification by faith or something like that.

57:20

I've told I've told The heads of the

57:25

UPC I thou I'll go to their school and debate right in front of students That's that's no problem, but I'm not going to go there and pretend to quote -unquote lead them in worship and not speak to the very fact that I believe that they have been grossly deceived and That's the issue that that I have here is

57:43

There needs to be some discernment on the part of the church This man is going into churches and singing and they don't know that he believes they're offering false worship

57:51

And I consider that quite hypocritical and in turn on that point. I even had mentioned him. I said are you actually said these?

57:57

So -called Trinitarian churches that you're invited to sing at I said are you sitting down with the pastor beforehand?

58:04

Yeah, really or or are you at least prior to your singing making it known making it known to the congregation that?

58:11

You find this position of Trinitarianism utterly false that you have received revelation. Okay as to this

58:18

New found or this new of this new tangled Idea of God. Are you making that known before you know, you're taking a moment to explain this to them

58:27

What do you say? No, that's because he's not doing it because he knows you wouldn't be singing and getting his honorarium check that night

58:34

Well, Mike, I really appreciate that. I will be very interested to see if mr. Hemphill. Hey, if he'd like to be on the program

58:40

I'd be glad to defend the deity of Christ against a quote -unquote Prophet because I know what the Word of God teaches.

58:46

So let's see if we can arrange it. Thanks a lot, Mike All right. God bless be listening next time. We'll see on the dividing line.

58:51

God bless The dividing line has been brought to you by Alpha and Omega ministries

59:36

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59:48

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